February 25, 2025 • 56 mins
Pastor Cameron and Luke discuss the details of their decision to go back to one single Sunday service after only a year of doing services.
Click here to watch a video of this episode.
- (00:00) - Introduction
- (12:29) - Pursuing God's Presence
- (41:34) - The Shift to One Service
- (54:17) - The Importance of Methodology
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Luke (00:05):
Welcome to the uncut podcast. I'm pastor Luke. I am
pastor Cameron. And this is theuncut podcast where we have
honest, uncut conversationsabout faith, life, and ministry.
Welcome back.
Cameron (00:21):
Welcome back. Man, I am I feel like I am living the lap
of luxury right now. Yeah?Sitting back in my chair. Just
the microphone's right here.
Luke (00:32):
It's like Yep. For our listeners, we got boom stands
for our microphones so we don'thave to lean forward over to
table
Cameron (00:41):
So anymore. Man, first world problems, but it is so
nice. This is comfortable. I cando this.
Luke (00:48):
Leveled up.
Cameron (00:49):
We have leveled up.
Luke (00:52):
So previously, last two episodes, we've kind of having
this discussion around, like,seeking God's presence. It's
where we've kind of been talkingabout what it means to seek his
face, his presence, wanting tojust experience God, not just
his, like, overarchingomnipresence always present, but
(01:18):
his tangible presence with us.And just seeing, like, what does
that kind of mean for us? Whatdoes that mean theologically?
And what does that mean?
And this episode is kind of a,is a really practical
exploration of that in kind ofthe philosophy of our how we're
(01:39):
doing ministry as a church. Butalso by the time everyone's
seeing this episode, I would saythat a lot of people have at
least heard that we're switchingback to one service.
Cameron (01:52):
One service from two. Yeah.
Luke (01:53):
From two services. And so that's kind of the the dual
purpose of this is to kind ofconnect the theology that we're
kind of reflecting on with thepractical discussion of just
that decision, I I guess. SoYep. Yeah. Which it's not very
often that I think,
Cameron (02:17):
you
Luke (02:17):
know, we spent a lot of time even on this podcast last
year, about this time last year,discussing what it would mean to
go to two services.
Cameron (02:24):
And why we needed to.
Luke (02:25):
Why we needed to. Mhmm. It was really fun. It was exciting.
Mhmm.
And then we even had some, Ithink, some follow ups up up
episodes where we talked abouthow it was going, and we had
some questions from our podcastlisteners who were kinda asking
how that was affecting us. And,and so here we are less than a
(02:47):
year technically, but almost upto a year of having do doing two
services, and we're, like, we'regoing back to Hawaii.
Cameron (02:55):
Future.
Luke (02:55):
Back to the future. Okay. Scotty McFlurry. Marty McFly.
So, yeah, Cam, I guess, like,where do you kinda wanna start
in that question?
I mean, maybe do we just startwith, like, why? Or
Cameron (03:10):
Yeah. I think there's a number of different ways that
you could we could I I guess, asyou were talking, I was just
thinking about this. Like, theirony of the decision to go from
two services to one service isthat we are more in need of two
services now than we were beforewe went to two services. Right.
(03:32):
Because in the two servicemodel, our average attendance
has grown.
Mhmm. Now you I think there'sgood reason to say that we've
made more space so more peoplecome. Yep. It's kinda like the
the, like, what the statisticstell us what will happen. And
maybe if we go down to one backto one service, our numbers will
(03:55):
come back down.
It's okay. But the the the thereality behind the numbers is
that it's not we're not makingthis decision based off of,
like, oh, it just didn't. We wewe no longer needed it. We still
do need two services. And whenwe made the announcement to the
church, the other yeah.
(04:19):
I I
Luke (04:19):
It was just this past Sunday.
Cameron (04:20):
Right? This past Sunday. I I did say that. Right?
Yeah.
I was I was clear that we stillneeded two services.
Luke (04:26):
I think so. Yeah.
Cameron (04:27):
Because we do, from from the number standpoint. And
until until we can figure out akind of a better model for us
that is in line with our corevalues. This is a conversation I
wanna have with you. Mhmm.Whether we have it off the
microphones or on themicrophones, we might as well
have it on the microphones.
Yeah. Kind of like, let's justkind of pin this question up, on
(04:48):
the proverbial bulletin boardand say, what did we re what did
we discover? What core valuesdid we discover in this decision
or in this process? Mhmm. And,because I was
Luke (05:02):
Good question.
Cameron (05:03):
Yeah. Because what I was saying because what I was
thinking about it the other day,I was like, okay. I don't think
that going to two services was amistake. I think it was the
right decision. I think we did Ithink we did we approached it
with due diligence.
Luke (05:18):
Mhmm.
Cameron (05:18):
We brought people in on the conversation. We prayed
about it. We exercised wisdom. Ithink we made a good decision
there. Yeah.
And I but I also think that Godwas really good and kind to us
in allowing us to learn somelessons about who we want who we
are Mhmm. And who we wanna bethrough that process. And we now
we've come to learn thoselessons. We couldn't have
(05:40):
learned them the other way.True.
We had to learn them this way.Now we have the lessons. And so
he's like, okay. Now now it'stime to take what you learned in
that season, and let's move intothe next one.
Luke (05:50):
Mhmm.
Cameron (05:52):
But so to ask the question, like, what are the
core values that we discoveredfrom that whole process? And and
the and and so now we take thoseand we say, how do we let those
be? How do we, how are weensuring that we're employing
(06:14):
those core values into futuredecisions Yeah. About worship
spaces, worship times Yep. Typesof worship.
Luke (06:25):
Mhmm.
Cameron (06:25):
And so maybe we can kinda come back to that
conversation here in just a fewminutes. Yeah. But, yeah, the
the the kind of the explanationor the or the gist of it really
is that, man, we the twoservices were really, really
successful in accomplishing thething that we hoped that they
(06:48):
would accomplish, which was forus to make more space for more
people.
Luke (06:54):
Yep.
Cameron (06:55):
We we needed more seating capacity. We felt like
the Lord wanted more people herethan we currently had room for
in one service. How do we dothat? Well, let's do two
services. You, of course, hadthe idea to do two two services
in that in that particular way.
Mhmm. One upstairs, onedownstairs. I think that was a
(07:17):
great idea. And and, and by all,by all accounts, it was a, it
was just a great success. Yeah.
By those metrics.
Luke (07:32):
Right.
Cameron (07:32):
By the metrics of needing to make more space so
that more people could come.Yep. Checked the box. We did it.
Succeeded.
Luke (07:39):
Mhmm.
Cameron (07:43):
As is often the case really in anything in life, you
there are always unintendedconsequences to the decisions
you make. Sometimes thoseconsequences are really
positive. Sometimes they'rereally negative. Yep. Sometimes
they're net neutral.
I think this is a reallypositive consequence. The
consequence was we learnedsomething about what's important
(08:04):
to us. Mhmm. And we learnedsomething maybe, like, maybe you
could say we learned what whatit what it is that god is
calling or moving us to.
Luke (08:14):
Mhmm.
Cameron (08:16):
With the two service model, the way that we were
running it, you know, we had anine 9AM service and an 11AM
service.
Luke (08:23):
Mhmm.
Cameron (08:23):
Pretty much just stacked right back to back. Not
a whole lot of buffer space inbetween those two.
Luke (08:28):
Yep. And
Cameron (08:28):
really what it created in us and in our in the
community here was just alwayskind of like the sense of rush.
Yeah. K. Not I don't even wannasay chaos, but it was just like
this anxious energy of gettingto the next step.
Luke (08:49):
Yeah. Because like the way it was stacked up, like, you
know, first service started atnine. Mhmm. That was supposed to
run until I think we had setofficially, like, 10:20, but we
usually ran twenty five.
Cameron (09:10):
Twenty five thirty five thirty twenty five thirty.
Luke (09:12):
Twenty five thirty, something like that.
Cameron (09:14):
How long the preacher went.
Luke (09:15):
Yeah. So it runs to about then. And then the first thing
that's supposed to happen afterfirst service that has to do
with the the running of secondservices huddle. It's where we
gather all of our volunteers. Wecheck-in and we just talk about
the morning a little bit, pray,and then they have that was
(09:37):
supposed to start at 10:35.
Cameron (09:40):
Mhmm.
Luke (09:41):
So you had a ten, sometimes even just a five
minute buffer between the end offirst service and the starting
of the first thing to get readyfor second service.
Cameron (09:52):
Mhmm.
Luke (09:53):
And by the time huddle was over, which was often, you know,
close to a quarter till we thenhad fifteen minutes for us to
like, make a bathroom break,grab something to drink or
something to snack on, fix aproblem, run upstairs, greet
people, start second service.And that's just yours and I
(10:15):
schedule. That's not even thejuggling that the worship team
was having to do in order to,juggle the logistical challenge
of doing worship in twodifferent stages or spaces Yep.
And having sound checks andmaking sure everything worked in
both places in the morning andonly having so much time to do
that. So Yeah.
(10:36):
That just there was enough spacefor everything to happen, but it
definitely led to a place of,like, feeling, okay, we gotta
make it to this. Yep. And wegotta make it to that. And not
feeling like we got to be fullypresent with people. And then
(10:56):
even just our own reflectionsof, like, getting to the end of
second service, and we're both,like, we're both tired.
Cameron (11:04):
Mhmm.
Luke (11:05):
And we're people out, or at least I'm people out because
I'm mister introvert. But Idon't wanna be people. I don't
wanna talk with people. And sothat's like what if that's
having an effect on us, how's ithaving an effect on everyone
else? Right.
Even those who serve and don'tserve.
Cameron (11:24):
Right. And it's it's foolish to assume that the
logistics of the schedule do notaffect the way that we lead
spiritually.
Luke (11:38):
Mhmm.
Cameron (11:39):
Just even in our in our own leadership and what we're
what our focus on what our focusis as leaders in that rushed
chaotic environment. What I wasfinding in my own heart Mhmm.
Was that I there were momentswhere I felt like it was
(12:03):
important for us to maybe lingerin a moment
Luke (12:07):
Mhmm.
Cameron (12:07):
Stay in a song, call people to call people to respond
to prayer or respond to theword. Mhmm. Be a little bit more
spontaneous in the leadershipand the flow of our service. I
(12:30):
felt that spiritually
Luke (12:32):
Mhmm.
Cameron (12:33):
But did not feel the freedom to do that responsibly
Mhmm. Knowing just like hearingit's the fear of man. Mhmm.
Here, like, the fear the fear ofman in the back of my head. Now
you gotta keep going.
There's people waiting. There'sa schedule to keep. Yep. And as
(12:59):
I was praying one week, it waslike it was like the week before
I went to the conference,something like that. It was
before I went, and then I wasalso praying there.
And I was praying the prayerthat we had been praying quite
often at church the last couplemonths was, lord, we want you
(13:23):
here. Mhmm. We we want yourtangible presence here. We want
your manifest presence here. AndI just felt really call really
clearly him saying to me, it'slike if I showed up, it was
almost like a rhetoricalquestion.
Luke (13:42):
Mhmm.
Cameron (13:42):
It was like, if I showed up, would there be room
for me? You you've made room foreveryone. Haven't really made
room for me. Mhmm. And thatreally struck my heart because,
I it was something that I it wassomething that was already here,
(14:06):
but that I hadn't been able toarticulate or name until I heard
from the Lord on it.
Mhmm. And then I was like, oh,that's ex that's exactly it's
like it's like the scale gotpulled off the my eyes. And it
was like, yeah. You know, youyou're feeling this, like,
(14:29):
lurchiness to the morning Mhmm.Because, like, the presence of
the Lord is trying to breakthrough and trying to break
through and trying to breakthrough, And you are actually
the one that's holding the gateclosed.
Luke (14:43):
Mhmm.
Cameron (14:45):
Because you're the choreographer of the morning, so
to speak. And I, I just resolvedin my heart at that time, like,
okay, Lord, whatever, whateverwe need to do to put the pursuit
of your presence as the primaryfocus for our community.
Luke (15:08):
Mhmm.
Cameron (15:08):
That's what we'll do. Yeah. That's what we're gonna
do. And, so, you know, beganthose conversations maybe with
more passion than, maybe withmore passion than, discernment
to begin with. But, but, youknow, begin to bring leaders in
(15:36):
on that conversation, you, ofcourse, being primary there and
then the staff, there's thestaff and the leadership team
and whatnot and the congregationthis past Sunday and just say,
Hey, you know, this is reallywhere I feel we need to be and
what we need to do and just kindof throw throw caution to the
(15:58):
proverbial wind Yeah.
And be like, hey. It's whatwhatever whatever we need to do.
Right. Whatever needs to comedown. Yeah.
Whatever whatever jar, you know,like whatever Mary's jar of
nard, you know, whatever jarneeds to be broken in devotion
(16:20):
at the feet of Jesus, whateveris sacred to us Mhmm. And most
important to us, let's break itin an act of devotion.
Luke (16:27):
Yeah.
Cameron (16:29):
And, so here we are, going back to one service. I've
told two no. Three. I've toldthree. I don't know if you've
told any any, like, ministrypeople outside of here?
You told anyone?
Luke (16:47):
I think my my brother Yeah. Who's in ministry in in a
different state, you know, as aworship pastor.
Cameron (16:52):
I told I've told three different pastors.
Luke (16:55):
Yeah.
Cameron (16:56):
And all three of them looked at me like I had six
heads. Like, what are youtalking about? Yeah. What are
you doing? All great men.
Yeah. All love the Lord. Allwant his presence too. But, but
(17:17):
it I don't know. I just, man, II just feel like it's kind of
like it's kind of like what wethe verse that we've been,
quoting out of, Exodus 33lately.
Luke (17:32):
Mhmm.
Cameron (17:34):
They were they were they were gonna they were gonna
go into the promised land. Godwas gonna be like, fine. Go take
the promised land, take all ofthe the fertile land, all of the
best of it. You know, it's it'syour I promised it to you here.
I'll give it to you.
I'm just not going with you.
Luke (17:51):
Mhmm.
Cameron (17:53):
And Moses is like, hold on. Right. If you're not going,
don't send us there. Mhmm. Andthere was just a there's just a
part of me that feels like twoservices, three services, four
(18:14):
services is like the churchgrowth model promised land.
Yeah. Yeah. Because I I don'tknow I don't think I know really
any pastors who would say, yeah.I'm I'm I'm really against my
church growing. Yeah.
(18:37):
Don't want my church to grow.Mhmm. And so it becomes this
pursuit. And in that pursuit,there's there's metrics that are
established for success,fruitfulness, faithfulness, and
(18:58):
it's almost always attached insome way to number of services,
Number of people in the room.This is what gets counted.
What gets counted. Yeah. Yeah.We we track what's important to
us.
Luke (19:16):
Mhmm.
Cameron (19:19):
And I have you know, I'm I'm not I don't got, like,
forty years in the ministry oranything like that, and my
contexts from industry arepretty narrow. You know, I
pastored in Sauk County fortwenty years. It's this is my
like, this is just where I'vebeen. It's my place.
Luke (19:41):
Mhmm.
Cameron (19:43):
I know other ministry contexts are different, and I
received that. But I just havethis feeling or this sense from
what I've seen and what I'veexperienced that the church has
(20:04):
pretty much emptied its walletto use every strategy, every
program, every methodology
Luke (20:21):
Mhmm.
Cameron (20:21):
To just, like, move the needle just like this much.
Just. And it feels like all theall it feels like in a large
way, all of the all of themodern metrics, programs,
methodologies, strategies,streams of thought in church
(20:47):
growth
Luke (20:47):
Mhmm.
Cameron (20:49):
Have just left us more, have just left us with a
slightly more successful feelingof powerlessness in, like, the
darkness and the brokenness andthe hopelessness of the world or
of Chautauqua County. And I'mlike, what why why why am I
(21:18):
still fighting this game? Why amI still playing this game like
this? Mhmm. Not not againststrategy, not against
leadership, not againstprograms.
All good things need to havethem.
Luke (21:29):
Right.
Cameron (21:31):
But when you try to strategize or program your way
out of institutional decline inthe Western church
Luke (21:41):
Mhmm.
Cameron (21:42):
You're you're just rearranging the deck chairs on
the on the Titanic. You know?Yeah. At some point, the church
has to be like, we need a moveof God.
Luke (21:55):
Mhmm.
Cameron (21:57):
Like, we we no. We need a move of God in in this we need
a move of God here. Mhmm. And II feel like I have just been
inspired to believe lately that,what we should be pursuing is
(22:20):
not primarily the excellence ofour program
Luke (22:24):
Mhmm.
Cameron (22:25):
But should be primarily the devotion of our heart Mhmm.
To God.
Luke (22:33):
Yeah. Yeah. Because, like, if we just, like, you know,
strip it back and we're just,like even we detach ourselves
from the church, like, whatwhat's the point of the church?
Like, we could give a bunch ofreally great answers, but, like,
a a really simplistic way is tohelp people connect with God.
(22:53):
Mhmm.
And if we're doing a bunch ofthings to get people in the door
or, into programs, but we'refailing to do that one
particular thing, helping peopleactually connect with God? Like,
what's the point?
Cameron (23:12):
Right. If you fail on the primary thing, secondary
things don't matter. You can dothose you can do those as
excellent as you can you can bethe the very best at the
secondary things Right. And fail
Luke (23:29):
Yeah. At the primary thing. And there is there is,
like, you know, there is, like,goodness in working to do
things, like, well. Absolutely.Totally.
Right? Like Absolutely.
Cameron (23:46):
We don't
Luke (23:46):
want people to listen to this podcast. So we Mhmm. Try
and make it look decent. We tryand make it sound decent, but
there's also a point at whichthe returns on the investment is
gonna would start to, like Mhmm.Really start to just fall off.
And we would lose we would spendbe spending so much time in
(24:09):
trying to make this, like, thetop level thing that the
question would be, well, is itstill actually serving its
purpose for us? Mhmm. And thenthe same thing goes into how how
we do things on Sunday, how wedo is finding that line and that
integration of excellence,strategy, technology, all of
(24:31):
these things to serve thepurpose, but not to then become
servants of those things. Mhmm.Because there is a certain point
at which where we become thesystem stops serving us and we
start serving the system.
Cameron (24:47):
Mhmm.
Luke (24:48):
And that's that's the line that we wanna
Cameron (24:51):
Mhmm.
Luke (24:51):
Try and ride. And I think it's the line that a lot of
methodologies in churches havekind of, lost sight of maybe.
Mhmm. Mhmm.
Cameron (25:03):
So if we if we go back to that that question of what
did this experience reveal iswhat core values did this
experience reveal?
Luke (25:18):
Mhmm.
Cameron (25:21):
What are some of the, like, what are some of the
thoughts that you would haveabout that?
Luke (25:28):
I think, like, when I think about some of the things
that this would reveal is that,is that, like, how do I say
this? Is that our method, howour method forms us is is as
important as the content that wetalk about. Mhmm. Like like the
(25:53):
content of Sundays
Cameron (25:54):
Mhmm.
Luke (25:55):
Great. Mhmm. Like, we're not necessarily changing the
content of what we've what we'redoing on Sunday mornings. We're
not really changing ourpreaching, and we didn't really
change our preaching or ourworship to fit when we went to
two services. But the form so,like, the, like, timing of it,
(26:16):
the scheduling of it, how muchspace and freedom and
flexibility we had for each ofthose things all have, like, an
impact on how we were beingformed as a church and how we
were and then how that formationwas affecting us as leaders and
how that affected the way we ledprayer, the way that, volunteers
(26:38):
felt like they had to show up.
And, so the the form factor of
Cameron (26:45):
it Yeah.
Luke (26:46):
I think was, like, forming us. It had had an impact on us
Cameron (26:53):
Mhmm.
Luke (26:53):
As a as a community. Mhmm. And that for us, that that is as
important to consider as thecontent of the things that we're
doing.
Cameron (27:03):
Mhmm. Yeah. Yep. I I think I are I I think I always
knew this, but maybe didn't knowit as deeply or was maybe hoping
(27:24):
that I could oh, this is gonnasound I don't know how this is
gonna sound.
Luke (27:27):
Oh, okay. Well, it's uncut. Great.
Cameron (27:31):
That I could disciple us out of this mindset. But I
don't know that I'm I don't knowthat either I I don't know that
I can nor should I. I'm I'mwondering if it should just be
like, no. This is just who weare, and that is our the
community here, the communityhere values, one room.
Luke (27:55):
They do.
Cameron (27:59):
Mhmm. Everyone in the same room.
Luke (28:01):
Yeah. That's been like the unanimous resounding point that
I've heard from everybody islike, oh, thank God. We're all
gonna be in the same room. Yep.Like everyone is excited about
that.
Not I think it I think this isthe thing that maybe you're
commenting on is not fornecessarily the same reasons
(28:23):
we're excited to be in the sameroom. Mhmm. Mhmm.
Cameron (28:28):
Yeah. There's well, I don't wanna say that their
reasons are necessarily bad.Right. They're just but, yeah,
they're different maybe than thereason that we see. And I don't
know.
Like, maybe maybe those reasonsare not so different because I
like that too.
Luke (28:48):
Mhmm. Like having everyone in the
Cameron (28:51):
same room? Everyone in the same room. I like
Luke (28:53):
Community feeling.
Cameron (28:54):
Community, the energy, the excitement, the like, even
from a leadership standpointMhmm. It's like I always I don't
this might be a little bit of anoverstatement, but there were
times where I almost felt like Ineeded to manufacture the
(29:17):
passion of communication aboutsomething that I communicated
passionately once already.
Luke (29:26):
Mhmm.
Cameron (29:27):
You know what I'm saying?
Luke (29:28):
Yeah. Preaching twice Twice is is it's it's own sort
of, like
Cameron (29:33):
Right. But that, you know, that is again, that's it's
a that's a little bit of anoverstatement. I was I've I
don't operate from, like, asense of being disingenuous in
the pulpit ever.
Luke (29:45):
Yeah.
Cameron (29:48):
But it there's a sense of, like well, I told one half
of our community something oncealready, and I'm gonna tell the
other half of it again. And so Iyeah. I do appreciate the kind
of the uncut nature of havingeveryone in one room Mhmm. At
(30:09):
one time. But I think that ourcommunity here really values
that.
And in some respects, there's alot of health around that. They
wanna be they wanna seeeveryone. Yep. They at least
want the opportunity to knoweveryone.
Luke (30:29):
Mhmm.
Cameron (30:30):
Whether or not they seize that opportunity to
actually know everyone, they atleast wanna have a stated, oh,
we could know everyone Right.Yeah. In the room. And and I
think that that goes beyondbeing just the value of this
church.
Luke (30:49):
Mhmm.
Cameron (30:50):
I think that's a value of this region. Yeah. I really
do. I I think I think it's avalue of the greater Chautauqua
County region.
Luke (30:59):
Mhmm.
Cameron (30:59):
And we, it we would I think we would be wise to
consider that going forward. Andthe reason that I say, you know,
in some ways, I have hoped thatI could disciple people out of
that
Luke (31:16):
Mhmm.
Cameron (31:17):
Is because, you know, you there's only there there
there does become a point ofdiminishing returns with one
room. Yes. You know, we'realready at the point where for a
person to know everyone in oneroom, the church of our size is
(31:41):
gonna be a it would be amiraculous feat for every I
don't know everyone. Right. Itry, but just there's just too
many moving parts, you know?
Mhmm. And so for us to for us toif we were to continue to grow,
let's say we just we picked upand moved to a bigger building
Luke (32:04):
Mhmm.
Cameron (32:04):
And we had seating capacity for 500 now. Mhmm. We
might all still be in the sameroom. Right. But that's not the
same type of feeling
Luke (32:13):
Right.
Cameron (32:14):
As a room of 200. Yeah. So the my hope was to say, okay,
the goal is never and has neverbeen to know everyone's name.
Luke (32:30):
Right.
Cameron (32:31):
The goal has always been that whoever is here knows
the name of Jesus. Yeah. That'sthe goal. Mhmm. And and that and
that if it says anything, ifthat value leads us to anything,
it should lead us to a greaterrealization of the importance of
(32:54):
small micro communities withinthe community.
Yeah. Yeah. Smaller groups. Yep.Of people that are your people.
So when you walk into a roomthat has 500 people in it or so,
you know that there's anotherthere's 15 people that are,
like, your people. Yep. Yeah.And so I still think that we
(33:20):
will need to do we will need todo significant work to disciple
people towards that Yeah.Reality that one room is a good
value to have, but but we needto understand why we like that.
Luke (33:37):
Right.
Cameron (33:38):
And then we need to understand the limitations of
that value. Mhmm. And, also,what will we what what will we
be sacrificing or saying no toMhmm. If we're not willing to
explore that value in a criticalway?
Luke (33:56):
Yeah. Because it's I think when we're when we're saying,
like, you know, wanting to knoweveryone in a room, I think the
reason why you both you and Iare cautious of that is because
we we know the dark side ofthat. Mhmm. Because I've been to
churches. I've I've walked intoa church, walked into many
(34:17):
churches, where everyone lookedat me and nobody said hi to me.
Mhmm. Who's that? Mhmm. Don'tknow him. Mhmm.
Right? Mhmm. Or I've been I Idid a, my senior year, I had,
like, a cultural dynamics ofcongregational ministry class.
Cameron (34:40):
Yeah. I would
Luke (34:40):
say. It was interesting. I like it. But I had to do, like,
a sociological study on thischurch. Mhmm.
And the church considered itselfto be very, very welcoming.
Mhmm. But then when I talkedwith people who were new newer
to the community or people whohad managed to hang around long
enough to become part of thecommunity, they all said, yeah.
(35:02):
It was really hard to becomewelcomed into this church.
Cameron (35:06):
Mhmm. Yep.
Luke (35:09):
And but everybody else experiences it as welcoming, but
they've already all been there.
Cameron (35:14):
They've broken through They've broken through that
barrier was
Luke (35:17):
to people. Yeah. And so when I think that's ultimately
what you and I, I think, are areguarding against when when we
talk about the goal isn't toknow everyone in the room is
because sometimes when thatsocial nature of the church, of
the community can turn insularof just like, okay. Well, we've
(35:39):
got I've got my people, and thisis enough, and we don't really
need to worry about anybodywho's outside the door right
now.
Cameron (35:46):
Mhmm.
Luke (35:47):
And and that's, I think, the the thing that you and I are
both guarding against. But atthe same time, it the having a
community, being known, sharing,life together is all absolutely
% a value of Christian communityand church, and you should do
that. I don't think it's greatthat the extreme of, you know,
(36:13):
the church that is able to getso many people through the door,
but every single person is justa seat, and you don't know
anybody. Mhmm. Because I've beento that church too.
Cameron (36:25):
Mhmm.
Luke (36:25):
Where, like, yeah, nobody noticed that I
Cameron (36:28):
was there because Or when I was gone.
Luke (36:31):
Or when I was gone. Like
Cameron (36:33):
Yeah.
Luke (36:33):
There was nothing to be welcomed into because everybody
was just filling in to watchsomething Yep. And then scooting
out. Yeah. And so, like, thatwasn't a community.
Cameron (36:43):
Right. Which is that that's like a value that I we
Luke (36:46):
Right.
Cameron (36:46):
We will that that's the that's the light side of this
value. There are shadow sides tothis value, but that is the
light side of the this value iscreating a community where you
can be known. Mhmm. You're trulyknown Right. And truly cared
for, truly loved.
And I think sometimes people area little bit optimistic about
(37:09):
the size of a community where aperson can be fully known. Yeah.
You know what I'm saying?
Luke (37:15):
Yeah. I know exactly what you're saying.
Cameron (37:16):
Yeah. Like, oh, we have 260 people. Of course, everyone
can be fully known. No. It'snot.
It's very unlikely. Veryunlikely that in a community our
size
Luke (37:27):
People max out at meaningful contacts at about a
50.
Cameron (37:32):
Right. Right. Which is why Conduit has two pastors.
Right. Yep.
It's one of the one of thereasons we have two pastors.
Yeah. There's another value thatI haven't that I'm I'm not quite
sure how to put language to ityet, so I'm just gonna maybe
talk around it
Luke (37:50):
k.
Cameron (37:51):
And see if maybe you can resonate with it. It's
somewhat connected to that oneabout community, but it's like
it's about valuing depth andwidth over
Luke (38:10):
height. Okay. On an individual basis, organizational
basis? Both.
Cameron (38:15):
Yeah? Both. You know, it's like it is like okay. So
I'm like I I consider I don'tmean any of this to be this none
of this is disparaging toprograms or other churches.
Right.
Everything
Luke (38:30):
we're saying is is very much rooted in the church that
we are here.
Cameron (38:34):
Experience here
Luke (38:35):
at condo ministers. Because they're I'll tell you,
like, having ministered for sometime in Chicago, it is very
different than ChautauquaCounty. Yeah. Like, the things
we are doing here would have tolook very different if we were
if I was still in Humboldt ParkOf Chicago.
Cameron (38:52):
Yeah. Yeah. So I think that there's a value of against
stacking a bunch of programs
Luke (39:08):
Mhmm.
Cameron (39:08):
And activity in order to essentially stack the deck
towards someone's spiritualgrowth. Like, if we just get
enough programs into the churchand get enough people into those
programs by pure value by bypure osmosis and saturation,
(39:35):
they will grow. They will becomedisciples. Okay. Stack, stack,
stack, stack, stack, stack,stack.
Women's ministry, men'sministry, adult ministry, young
adult ministry, youth ministry,kids ministry, like
Luke (39:48):
Left handed ministry.
Cameron (39:50):
Left handed ministry, knitters ministry. You know,
like, you you you get what I'msaying. Like, everyone knows the
thing. And and it becomes likeit just kind of feels like
you're just chasing your tailand just trying to hit every
single corner of sociologicaldemographic in order to, yeah,
(40:15):
saturate a ministry environmenthoping that one of the bible
studies you do, sticks. Mhmm.
And I think that there comes apoint where the stacking of
those things becomes tooprecariously tippy.
Luke (40:38):
Mhmm.
Cameron (40:38):
Because you stack them tall without any it's like
second soil. Yeah. You know,like, grows fast. A person grows
fast in that environment. Mhmm.
But then the rootedness seems tobe wanting a little bit. Sure.
(41:04):
What I feel like we're doing bygoing to one service is we're
kind of like I don't know whyI'm getting this imagery. It was
kinda like we're kinda liketaking a Jenga approach to our
any programmatic or, like,vertical growth.
Luke (41:25):
Uh-huh.
Cameron (41:25):
We're just kinda, like, popping blocks Okay. Out of it.
Yeah. Alright. Pop.
Pop. Pop. Yeah.
Luke (41:34):
This is a very anxiety inducing analogy camera. Sorry.
Just saying it
Cameron (41:39):
as it comes to my head. And we're saying, alright. We're
we're taking things away toeliminate any really any
distraction
Luke (41:56):
Mhmm.
Cameron (41:58):
Even good things. Mhmm. Really good things, like a
second service that fits morepeople.
Luke (42:04):
Mhmm.
Cameron (42:05):
We're taking away really good things so that we
can pursue the greater thingthat will bring, like, depth in
the roots.
Luke (42:18):
Yeah. Mhmm.
Cameron (42:20):
And so,
Luke (42:29):
what? Did you just sing of another crazy night?
Cameron (42:31):
I I did. Okay. I really did. What? It's like I think
it's actually the question whatlike, it's similar to one of the
questions that I asked you whenyou first came here and we did
the interview.
Like, would you rather fightwould you rather fight, one
horse sized duck or a thousandduck sized horses. You know? If
(42:59):
you had to fight one, would yourather fight one horse?
Luke (43:03):
Not what I was ready for you
Cameron (43:05):
to say. And, the reason that I was thinking that was
like, is there is like a diethere's a there's a dynamic of
(43:27):
would you rather we could say Iprobably could have just said it
like this. As a pastor, wouldyou rather serve a church of 500
people who are a quarter inchdeep or 250 people who are 12
feet deep? Right. No.
(43:50):
And I think that our contextvalues the depth Mhmm. The 12
feet deep, 250 people, ratherthan the quarter inch deep, 500
people. Yeah. And so and thereason why that we had we would
(44:10):
have that conversation when itcomes to one service is it is
precisely for the reason that itis it is in transformative it is
in an tangible encounter withGod that our capacity for growth
(44:33):
to the image and likeness ofJesus gets magnified. Right.
It is it is like, I I, wasreading something something that
Batterson wrote. It was anarticle. And he he said
something he described revivalas when you get decades and
(44:56):
days. And, and like that, Ithat's kind of like the that's
getting what you see in thebook. I'm reading through acts
right now, my personaldevotions, and you just see,
like I mean, they're getting indays what the church in America
gets in decades.
Luke (45:16):
Mhmm.
Cameron (45:19):
And, and I think that the that the tangible presence
of God brings a transformativepower, conforming people to the
image and likeness of Jesus sothat the so that the depth that
(45:42):
they would get in decades fromprogrammatic ministry, they get
in days in the presence of theLord.
Luke (45:50):
Mhmm.
Cameron (45:51):
I said all those funny Jenga analogies and horse and
duck analogies to say that lineright there.
Luke (45:59):
Yeah. I, like, I I think your first way of saying it, I
think, is I think can applybecause I think this value goes
even systematically maybe for usis we're interested in in
reaching deep and wide Mhmm. Nottall.
Cameron (46:19):
Right.
Luke (46:20):
The difference being tall is very visible. Mhmm. It it's
really big. It's flashy. It'sexciting.
It's accessible. You'll capturea lot. Mhmm. Deep and wide, most
of what you see or you don't seemost of it because it's deep.
Yeah.
It's underneath the surface.Yep. You can't see it as much.
(46:42):
It's more spread out.
Cameron (46:43):
Mhmm.
Luke (46:44):
But that type of work bears the fruit sticks.
Cameron (46:49):
Mhmm.
Luke (46:50):
The the work that you're kind of doing is going to bear
fruit in a in a different way.
Cameron (47:00):
It's what yeah. It's what, like, Leslie Dubigan
called the open secret. It waslike the it's the the deep and
wide is like the open secret.It's it's not a secret, but,
like, everything's under thesurface. It's actually secret.
You know?
Luke (47:16):
Exactly. And you were talking about programmatic
ministry. And, like, the thingis is, well, if I start coming
to this church because, like,oh, like, they got a Dungeons
and Dragons theology ministry.I'm going to that. Mhmm.
Cameron (47:30):
Because
Luke (47:30):
that makes me really excited, and that's my, like,
thing.
Cameron (47:33):
Mhmm.
Luke (47:34):
And then one day, your guy budget cuts or whatever, and
we're done with that ministry.
Cameron (47:39):
Yeah.
Luke (47:40):
Well, I'm not gonna be here anymore.
Cameron (47:42):
Yeah.
Luke (47:42):
And you see that a lot with things that are kind of
built tall is
Cameron (47:49):
falls away. And you actually see it, you know what?
I see it, which which I think iskinda like a disturbing trend,
is what I would call or considera la carte ministry. We go there
for the preaching. We go to thatchurch for the men's ministry.
We go to that. We send our kidsto that church for the youth
(48:10):
ministry, but we really love thewomen's ministry at that church.
So we just a la carte things,and and, like, it becomes like a
well, like, what this is not abuff like, this is not a buffet
Luke (48:31):
Mhmm.
Cameron (48:32):
But it's just grabbing at whatever program at each
specific location works for me.I think it's just a really shaky
foundation and a reallydangerous way to look at
engagement in the body.
Luke (48:50):
See, I wasn't initially thinking about that in like a
completely negative format,honestly.
Cameron (48:56):
Mhmm.
Luke (48:57):
Because I was I was thinking about I was like, well,
I know that a lot of people dothat simply because, like,
there's some things that justaren't offered it. Like like,
we're our context, we don'thave, like, a lot of churches
that are huge. No. Like, we'renot, you know, we're not in the
suburbs of some metropolitancity.
Cameron (49:19):
Biggest church in our county, in two counties, is,
like, 400 people.
Luke (49:23):
Right. And that's, like, I know people that would consider
that very small. Right. Mhmm.And and so, like, you know, not
every church is gonna be able tooffer like, there's so many
people who will, you know, say,well, Pastor Pruitt, could we do
this, or could you offer this?
(49:44):
And I'm just like, if I had thecapacity, I would.
Cameron (49:48):
Mhmm.
Luke (49:48):
I don't I don't have the capacity, or I don't have the
people, or just don't have theor that's just not where our
focus is right now because wegotta focus on this other thing.
Cameron (49:57):
Mhmm.
Luke (49:59):
And so, I was kind of thinking, like, well, it's not
necessarily a bad thing to tohave a more ecumenical approach
to, you know, well, you go herefor this and there for that in a
but I wasn't thinking in, like,an an extreme, though,
necessarily, in a degree intowhich that you're not known
(50:22):
anywhere.
Cameron (50:22):
Yeah. That's that's my I I'm all for ecumenism,
ecumenicism, and ecumenicalspirit. I'm all for that.
Luke (50:33):
SAT word. Yes.
Cameron (50:35):
I think it's I think it's great. I encourage people
to come from other churches toour ministries here if we're if
they're good. I encourage ourpeople to go to other ministries
at other churches if they'regood. There is a lot of benefit
in that, but I think the dangerof it is that we we run the risk
(50:58):
of creating a we we run the riskof creating a transient
community within our owncommunity Mhmm. That has no
actual rootedness, has very it'svery skeptical as to whether or
(51:21):
not there's any pastoralleadership over that person or
authority.
Luke (51:24):
Right.
Cameron (51:25):
Or if they're known Mhmm. At any place or giving or
serving or it just becomes a, Ithink, a really a lot of a lot
of questions Yeah. Kinda rise upin me about it. So I don't think
it's it's not universally a badthing, but I think it has the
(51:49):
potential to be really,troubling. And I'm curious as to
I'm curious as to what it saysto kind of, like, a, a
(52:11):
perspective of individualismMhmm.
Within the church. Like, itwe're just pursuing wherever it
is individually best for us, notconsidering what our absence in
(52:31):
a particular community Mhmm.Does to or steals away from the
rest of the body in that place.
Luke (52:39):
Yeah. You
Cameron (52:40):
know, we we usually talk about we usually talk about
our participation in the bodywhen we talk about, like, first
Corinthians 12 and stuff likethat. Yep. But we don't often
talk about what What our absencemeans. Absence. Mhmm.
What the type of gap that thatleaves in the church. Yeah. And
how that inadvertently is arefusal to serve others with the
(53:03):
gifts that god has given to us.Mhmm. By saying, well, no.
I just come here for thepreaching.
Luke (53:08):
Yeah. Right.
Cameron (53:10):
I just come here for the youth group.
Luke (53:12):
Mhmm.
Cameron (53:15):
So well, I do think there's benefits to it, of
course. I think that there I'mI'm skeptical that it is gonna
actually produce a a reallyformed disciple.
Luke (53:29):
Mhmm. Yep. I agree. Yeah. So we're going back to one
service.
Cameron (53:34):
We're going back to one service.
Luke (53:35):
Back to one service. It's as crazy as, as it sounds. We're
kinda out of time to kind ofexplore other, like, other
avenues, but, like, suffice itto say, it's not because we we
don't need two services. We do.We're preferably and creatively
(53:55):
exploring what it means tostretch this facility
Cameron (53:58):
Yep.
Luke (53:59):
Or what, you know, what could two services look like,
but in a different way. Yep. Orwe're not we're not throwing too
many options off the table.We're being prayerful and
thoughtful about all of them.
Cameron (54:14):
Mhmm.
Luke (54:15):
You know? So we're not committed.
Cameron (54:18):
Mhmm.
Luke (54:18):
You know, we try I think I
Cameron (54:19):
think
Luke (54:19):
we, generally, at least as a staff, do a good job of not
idolizing our methodology tootoo much.
Cameron (54:29):
Oh, I'm so grateful for that. Yeah. Mhmm.
Luke (54:32):
Because that, yeah. That can just be I like, when you get
into a place where you're justlike, well, this is what we do.
Like, there was a church that Iwas connected to briefly in
Chicago. They were a, like,satellite or, like, branch of a
bigger church out in the in thesuburbs. And, you know, suburbs
(54:55):
out in Chicago, like, everyone'scoming home for Christmas, you
gotta have a Christmas Eveservice.
Mhmm. Big. Right?
Cameron (55:01):
Mhmm.
Luke (55:02):
You have these big productions out there, all that.
Mhmm. And so they told theirlittle satellite church in
Chicago, well, you have to havea Christmas Eve service. And
they were like, it's going to bethe people serving and no one
else. Mhmm.
And they were right. Mhmm. Andit was the same thing when the
church I was serving, we neverdid a Christmas Eve service
Cameron (55:24):
Mhmm.
Luke (55:24):
Because it was only ever going to be us. Mhmm. Because if
you weren't a historic church,people might, if they live in
the city, go to a historicchurch on Christmas Eve. Mhmm.
But most people who lived in thecity weren't from the city.
Cameron (55:40):
Mhmm.
Luke (55:40):
And they went out to the suburbs. Mhmm. And so you almost
ended up ministering to nobodyon Christmas Eve. And so we
never did Christmas Eve service,but this one church did because
the church that was in charge ofthem out in suburbs just
couldn't conceive of not doing aa Christmas Eve service.
Cameron (55:56):
Mhmm.
Luke (55:57):
The methodology, the value had just become so sacred Yeah.
That they couldn't conceive ofnot doing one Yep. In the city.
Yeah. Anyways, that's my littlestory on don't don't get too
attached to your method.
Cameron (56:12):
Yeah. Slaughter the sacred cows.
Luke (56:14):
Mhmm. Mhmm.
Cameron (56:17):
Okay. Thanks for listening. We appreciate your
your bearing with us in theseconversations, your interaction.
You can always we alwaysencourage you to like,
subscribe, share, comment, postit on your socials, whatever you
feel this conversation isvaluable, and we will catch you
(56:39):
on the next episode.
Welcome to the uncut podcast. I'm pastor Luke. I am
pastor Cameron. And this is theuncut podcast where we have
honest, uncut conversationsabout faith, life, and ministry.
Welcome back.
Cameron (00:21):
Welcome back. Man, I am I feel like I am living the lap
of luxury right now. Yeah?Sitting back in my chair. Just
the microphone's right here.
Luke (00:32):
It's like Yep. For our listeners, we got boom stands
for our microphones so we don'thave to lean forward over to
table
Cameron (00:41):
So anymore. Man, first world problems, but it is so
nice. This is comfortable. I cando this.
Luke (00:48):
Leveled up.
Cameron (00:49):
We have leveled up.
Luke (00:52):
So previously, last two episodes, we've kind of having
this discussion around, like,seeking God's presence. It's
where we've kind of been talkingabout what it means to seek his
face, his presence, wanting tojust experience God, not just
his, like, overarchingomnipresence always present, but
(01:18):
his tangible presence with us.And just seeing, like, what does
that kind of mean for us? Whatdoes that mean theologically?
And what does that mean?
And this episode is kind of a,is a really practical
exploration of that in kind ofthe philosophy of our how we're
(01:39):
doing ministry as a church. Butalso by the time everyone's
seeing this episode, I would saythat a lot of people have at
least heard that we're switchingback to one service.
Cameron (01:52):
One service from two. Yeah.
Luke (01:53):
From two services. And so that's kind of the the dual
purpose of this is to kind ofconnect the theology that we're
kind of reflecting on with thepractical discussion of just
that decision, I I guess. SoYep. Yeah. Which it's not very
often that I think,
Cameron (02:17):
you
Luke (02:17):
know, we spent a lot of time even on this podcast last
year, about this time last year,discussing what it would mean to
go to two services.
Cameron (02:24):
And why we needed to.
Luke (02:25):
Why we needed to. Mhmm. It was really fun. It was exciting.
Mhmm.
And then we even had some, Ithink, some follow ups up up
episodes where we talked abouthow it was going, and we had
some questions from our podcastlisteners who were kinda asking
how that was affecting us. And,and so here we are less than a
(02:47):
year technically, but almost upto a year of having do doing two
services, and we're, like, we'regoing back to Hawaii.
Cameron (02:55):
Future.
Luke (02:55):
Back to the future. Okay. Scotty McFlurry. Marty McFly.
So, yeah, Cam, I guess, like,where do you kinda wanna start
in that question?
I mean, maybe do we just startwith, like, why? Or
Cameron (03:10):
Yeah. I think there's a number of different ways that
you could we could I I guess, asyou were talking, I was just
thinking about this. Like, theirony of the decision to go from
two services to one service isthat we are more in need of two
services now than we were beforewe went to two services. Right.
(03:32):
Because in the two servicemodel, our average attendance
has grown.
Mhmm. Now you I think there'sgood reason to say that we've
made more space so more peoplecome. Yep. It's kinda like the
the, like, what the statisticstell us what will happen. And
maybe if we go down to one backto one service, our numbers will
(03:55):
come back down.
It's okay. But the the the thereality behind the numbers is
that it's not we're not makingthis decision based off of,
like, oh, it just didn't. We wewe no longer needed it. We still
do need two services. And whenwe made the announcement to the
church, the other yeah.
(04:19):
I I
Luke (04:19):
It was just this past Sunday.
Cameron (04:20):
Right? This past Sunday. I I did say that. Right?
Yeah.
I was I was clear that we stillneeded two services.
Luke (04:26):
I think so. Yeah.
Cameron (04:27):
Because we do, from from the number standpoint. And
until until we can figure out akind of a better model for us
that is in line with our corevalues. This is a conversation I
wanna have with you. Mhmm.Whether we have it off the
microphones or on themicrophones, we might as well
have it on the microphones.
Yeah. Kind of like, let's justkind of pin this question up, on
(04:48):
the proverbial bulletin boardand say, what did we re what did
we discover? What core valuesdid we discover in this decision
or in this process? Mhmm. And,because I was
Luke (05:02):
Good question.
Cameron (05:03):
Yeah. Because what I was saying because what I was
thinking about it the other day,I was like, okay. I don't think
that going to two services was amistake. I think it was the
right decision. I think we did Ithink we did we approached it
with due diligence.
Luke (05:18):
Mhmm.
Cameron (05:18):
We brought people in on the conversation. We prayed
about it. We exercised wisdom. Ithink we made a good decision
there. Yeah.
And I but I also think that Godwas really good and kind to us
in allowing us to learn somelessons about who we want who we
are Mhmm. And who we wanna bethrough that process. And we now
we've come to learn thoselessons. We couldn't have
(05:40):
learned them the other way.True.
We had to learn them this way.Now we have the lessons. And so
he's like, okay. Now now it'stime to take what you learned in
that season, and let's move intothe next one.
Luke (05:50):
Mhmm.
Cameron (05:52):
But so to ask the question, like, what are the
core values that we discoveredfrom that whole process? And and
the and and so now we take thoseand we say, how do we let those
be? How do we, how are weensuring that we're employing
(06:14):
those core values into futuredecisions Yeah. About worship
spaces, worship times Yep. Typesof worship.
Luke (06:25):
Mhmm.
Cameron (06:25):
And so maybe we can kinda come back to that
conversation here in just a fewminutes. Yeah. But, yeah, the
the the kind of the explanationor the or the gist of it really
is that, man, we the twoservices were really, really
successful in accomplishing thething that we hoped that they
(06:48):
would accomplish, which was forus to make more space for more
people.
Luke (06:54):
Yep.
Cameron (06:55):
We we needed more seating capacity. We felt like
the Lord wanted more people herethan we currently had room for
in one service. How do we dothat? Well, let's do two
services. You, of course, hadthe idea to do two two services
in that in that particular way.
Mhmm. One upstairs, onedownstairs. I think that was a
(07:17):
great idea. And and, and by all,by all accounts, it was a, it
was just a great success. Yeah.
By those metrics.
Luke (07:32):
Right.
Cameron (07:32):
By the metrics of needing to make more space so
that more people could come.Yep. Checked the box. We did it.
Succeeded.
Luke (07:39):
Mhmm.
Cameron (07:43):
As is often the case really in anything in life, you
there are always unintendedconsequences to the decisions
you make. Sometimes thoseconsequences are really
positive. Sometimes they'rereally negative. Yep. Sometimes
they're net neutral.
I think this is a reallypositive consequence. The
consequence was we learnedsomething about what's important
(08:04):
to us. Mhmm. And we learnedsomething maybe, like, maybe you
could say we learned what whatit what it is that god is
calling or moving us to.
Luke (08:14):
Mhmm.
Cameron (08:16):
With the two service model, the way that we were
running it, you know, we had anine 9AM service and an 11AM
service.
Luke (08:23):
Mhmm.
Cameron (08:23):
Pretty much just stacked right back to back. Not
a whole lot of buffer space inbetween those two.
Luke (08:28):
Yep. And
Cameron (08:28):
really what it created in us and in our in the
community here was just alwayskind of like the sense of rush.
Yeah. K. Not I don't even wannasay chaos, but it was just like
this anxious energy of gettingto the next step.
Luke (08:49):
Yeah. Because like the way it was stacked up, like, you
know, first service started atnine. Mhmm. That was supposed to
run until I think we had setofficially, like, 10:20, but we
usually ran twenty five.
Cameron (09:10):
Twenty five thirty five thirty twenty five thirty.
Luke (09:12):
Twenty five thirty, something like that.
Cameron (09:14):
How long the preacher went.
Luke (09:15):
Yeah. So it runs to about then. And then the first thing
that's supposed to happen afterfirst service that has to do
with the the running of secondservices huddle. It's where we
gather all of our volunteers. Wecheck-in and we just talk about
the morning a little bit, pray,and then they have that was
(09:37):
supposed to start at 10:35.
Cameron (09:40):
Mhmm.
Luke (09:41):
So you had a ten, sometimes even just a five
minute buffer between the end offirst service and the starting
of the first thing to get readyfor second service.
Cameron (09:52):
Mhmm.
Luke (09:53):
And by the time huddle was over, which was often, you know,
close to a quarter till we thenhad fifteen minutes for us to
like, make a bathroom break,grab something to drink or
something to snack on, fix aproblem, run upstairs, greet
people, start second service.And that's just yours and I
(10:15):
schedule. That's not even thejuggling that the worship team
was having to do in order to,juggle the logistical challenge
of doing worship in twodifferent stages or spaces Yep.
And having sound checks andmaking sure everything worked in
both places in the morning andonly having so much time to do
that. So Yeah.
(10:36):
That just there was enough spacefor everything to happen, but it
definitely led to a place of,like, feeling, okay, we gotta
make it to this. Yep. And wegotta make it to that. And not
feeling like we got to be fullypresent with people. And then
(10:56):
even just our own reflectionsof, like, getting to the end of
second service, and we're both,like, we're both tired.
Cameron (11:04):
Mhmm.
Luke (11:05):
And we're people out, or at least I'm people out because
I'm mister introvert. But Idon't wanna be people. I don't
wanna talk with people. And sothat's like what if that's
having an effect on us, how's ithaving an effect on everyone
else? Right.
Even those who serve and don'tserve.
Cameron (11:24):
Right. And it's it's foolish to assume that the
logistics of the schedule do notaffect the way that we lead
spiritually.
Luke (11:38):
Mhmm.
Cameron (11:39):
Just even in our in our own leadership and what we're
what our focus on what our focusis as leaders in that rushed
chaotic environment. What I wasfinding in my own heart Mhmm.
Was that I there were momentswhere I felt like it was
(12:03):
important for us to maybe lingerin a moment
Luke (12:07):
Mhmm.
Cameron (12:07):
Stay in a song, call people to call people to respond
to prayer or respond to theword. Mhmm. Be a little bit more
spontaneous in the leadershipand the flow of our service. I
(12:30):
felt that spiritually
Luke (12:32):
Mhmm.
Cameron (12:33):
But did not feel the freedom to do that responsibly
Mhmm. Knowing just like hearingit's the fear of man. Mhmm.
Here, like, the fear the fear ofman in the back of my head. Now
you gotta keep going.
There's people waiting. There'sa schedule to keep. Yep. And as
(12:59):
I was praying one week, it waslike it was like the week before
I went to the conference,something like that. It was
before I went, and then I wasalso praying there.
And I was praying the prayerthat we had been praying quite
often at church the last couplemonths was, lord, we want you
(13:23):
here. Mhmm. We we want yourtangible presence here. We want
your manifest presence here. AndI just felt really call really
clearly him saying to me, it'slike if I showed up, it was
almost like a rhetoricalquestion.
Luke (13:42):
Mhmm.
Cameron (13:42):
It was like, if I showed up, would there be room
for me? You you've made room foreveryone. Haven't really made
room for me. Mhmm. And thatreally struck my heart because,
I it was something that I it wassomething that was already here,
(14:06):
but that I hadn't been able toarticulate or name until I heard
from the Lord on it.
Mhmm. And then I was like, oh,that's ex that's exactly it's
like it's like the scale gotpulled off the my eyes. And it
was like, yeah. You know, youyou're feeling this, like,
(14:29):
lurchiness to the morning Mhmm.Because, like, the presence of
the Lord is trying to breakthrough and trying to break
through and trying to breakthrough, And you are actually
the one that's holding the gateclosed.
Luke (14:43):
Mhmm.
Cameron (14:45):
Because you're the choreographer of the morning, so
to speak. And I, I just resolvedin my heart at that time, like,
okay, Lord, whatever, whateverwe need to do to put the pursuit
of your presence as the primaryfocus for our community.
Luke (15:08):
Mhmm.
Cameron (15:08):
That's what we'll do. Yeah. That's what we're gonna
do. And, so, you know, beganthose conversations maybe with
more passion than, maybe withmore passion than, discernment
to begin with. But, but, youknow, begin to bring leaders in
(15:36):
on that conversation, you, ofcourse, being primary there and
then the staff, there's thestaff and the leadership team
and whatnot and the congregationthis past Sunday and just say,
Hey, you know, this is reallywhere I feel we need to be and
what we need to do and just kindof throw throw caution to the
(15:58):
proverbial wind Yeah.
And be like, hey. It's whatwhatever whatever we need to do.
Right. Whatever needs to comedown. Yeah.
Whatever whatever jar, you know,like whatever Mary's jar of
nard, you know, whatever jarneeds to be broken in devotion
(16:20):
at the feet of Jesus, whateveris sacred to us Mhmm. And most
important to us, let's break itin an act of devotion.
Luke (16:27):
Yeah.
Cameron (16:29):
And, so here we are, going back to one service. I've
told two no. Three. I've toldthree. I don't know if you've
told any any, like, ministrypeople outside of here?
You told anyone?
Luke (16:47):
I think my my brother Yeah. Who's in ministry in in a
different state, you know, as aworship pastor.
Cameron (16:52):
I told I've told three different pastors.
Luke (16:55):
Yeah.
Cameron (16:56):
And all three of them looked at me like I had six
heads. Like, what are youtalking about? Yeah. What are
you doing? All great men.
Yeah. All love the Lord. Allwant his presence too. But, but
(17:17):
it I don't know. I just, man, II just feel like it's kind of
like it's kind of like what wethe verse that we've been,
quoting out of, Exodus 33lately.
Luke (17:32):
Mhmm.
Cameron (17:34):
They were they were they were gonna they were gonna
go into the promised land. Godwas gonna be like, fine. Go take
the promised land, take all ofthe the fertile land, all of the
best of it. You know, it's it'syour I promised it to you here.
I'll give it to you.
I'm just not going with you.
Luke (17:51):
Mhmm.
Cameron (17:53):
And Moses is like, hold on. Right. If you're not going,
don't send us there. Mhmm. Andthere was just a there's just a
part of me that feels like twoservices, three services, four
(18:14):
services is like the churchgrowth model promised land.
Yeah. Yeah. Because I I don'tknow I don't think I know really
any pastors who would say, yeah.I'm I'm I'm really against my
church growing. Yeah.
(18:37):
Don't want my church to grow.Mhmm. And so it becomes this
pursuit. And in that pursuit,there's there's metrics that are
established for success,fruitfulness, faithfulness, and
(18:58):
it's almost always attached insome way to number of services,
Number of people in the room.This is what gets counted.
What gets counted. Yeah. Yeah.We we track what's important to
us.
Luke (19:16):
Mhmm.
Cameron (19:19):
And I have you know, I'm I'm not I don't got, like,
forty years in the ministry oranything like that, and my
contexts from industry arepretty narrow. You know, I
pastored in Sauk County fortwenty years. It's this is my
like, this is just where I'vebeen. It's my place.
Luke (19:41):
Mhmm.
Cameron (19:43):
I know other ministry contexts are different, and I
received that. But I just havethis feeling or this sense from
what I've seen and what I'veexperienced that the church has
(20:04):
pretty much emptied its walletto use every strategy, every
program, every methodology
Luke (20:21):
Mhmm.
Cameron (20:21):
To just, like, move the needle just like this much.
Just. And it feels like all theall it feels like in a large
way, all of the all of themodern metrics, programs,
methodologies, strategies,streams of thought in church
(20:47):
growth
Luke (20:47):
Mhmm.
Cameron (20:49):
Have just left us more, have just left us with a
slightly more successful feelingof powerlessness in, like, the
darkness and the brokenness andthe hopelessness of the world or
of Chautauqua County. And I'mlike, what why why why am I
(21:18):
still fighting this game? Why amI still playing this game like
this? Mhmm. Not not againststrategy, not against
leadership, not againstprograms.
All good things need to havethem.
Luke (21:29):
Right.
Cameron (21:31):
But when you try to strategize or program your way
out of institutional decline inthe Western church
Luke (21:41):
Mhmm.
Cameron (21:42):
You're you're just rearranging the deck chairs on
the on the Titanic. You know?Yeah. At some point, the church
has to be like, we need a moveof God.
Luke (21:55):
Mhmm.
Cameron (21:57):
Like, we we no. We need a move of God in in this we need
a move of God here. Mhmm. And II feel like I have just been
inspired to believe lately that,what we should be pursuing is
(22:20):
not primarily the excellence ofour program
Luke (22:24):
Mhmm.
Cameron (22:25):
But should be primarily the devotion of our heart Mhmm.
To God.
Luke (22:33):
Yeah. Yeah. Because, like, if we just, like, you know,
strip it back and we're just,like even we detach ourselves
from the church, like, whatwhat's the point of the church?
Like, we could give a bunch ofreally great answers, but, like,
a a really simplistic way is tohelp people connect with God.
(22:53):
Mhmm.
And if we're doing a bunch ofthings to get people in the door
or, into programs, but we'refailing to do that one
particular thing, helping peopleactually connect with God? Like,
what's the point?
Cameron (23:12):
Right. If you fail on the primary thing, secondary
things don't matter. You can dothose you can do those as
excellent as you can you can bethe the very best at the
secondary things Right. And fail
Luke (23:29):
Yeah. At the primary thing. And there is there is,
like, you know, there is, like,goodness in working to do
things, like, well. Absolutely.Totally.
Right? Like Absolutely.
Cameron (23:46):
We don't
Luke (23:46):
want people to listen to this podcast. So we Mhmm. Try
and make it look decent. We tryand make it sound decent, but
there's also a point at whichthe returns on the investment is
gonna would start to, like Mhmm.Really start to just fall off.
And we would lose we would spendbe spending so much time in
(24:09):
trying to make this, like, thetop level thing that the
question would be, well, is itstill actually serving its
purpose for us? Mhmm. And thenthe same thing goes into how how
we do things on Sunday, how wedo is finding that line and that
integration of excellence,strategy, technology, all of
(24:31):
these things to serve thepurpose, but not to then become
servants of those things. Mhmm.Because there is a certain point
at which where we become thesystem stops serving us and we
start serving the system.
Cameron (24:47):
Mhmm.
Luke (24:48):
And that's that's the line that we wanna
Cameron (24:51):
Mhmm.
Luke (24:51):
Try and ride. And I think it's the line that a lot of
methodologies in churches havekind of, lost sight of maybe.
Mhmm. Mhmm.
Cameron (25:03):
So if we if we go back to that that question of what
did this experience reveal iswhat core values did this
experience reveal?
Luke (25:18):
Mhmm.
Cameron (25:21):
What are some of the, like, what are some of the
thoughts that you would haveabout that?
Luke (25:28):
I think, like, when I think about some of the things
that this would reveal is that,is that, like, how do I say
this? Is that our method, howour method forms us is is as
important as the content that wetalk about. Mhmm. Like like the
(25:53):
content of Sundays
Cameron (25:54):
Mhmm.
Luke (25:55):
Great. Mhmm. Like, we're not necessarily changing the
content of what we've what we'redoing on Sunday mornings. We're
not really changing ourpreaching, and we didn't really
change our preaching or ourworship to fit when we went to
two services. But the form so,like, the, like, timing of it,
(26:16):
the scheduling of it, how muchspace and freedom and
flexibility we had for each ofthose things all have, like, an
impact on how we were beingformed as a church and how we
were and then how that formationwas affecting us as leaders and
how that affected the way we ledprayer, the way that, volunteers
(26:38):
felt like they had to show up.
And, so the the form factor of
Cameron (26:45):
it Yeah.
Luke (26:46):
I think was, like, forming us. It had had an impact on us
Cameron (26:53):
Mhmm.
Luke (26:53):
As a as a community. Mhmm. And that for us, that that is as
important to consider as thecontent of the things that we're
doing.
Cameron (27:03):
Mhmm. Yeah. Yep. I I think I are I I think I always
knew this, but maybe didn't knowit as deeply or was maybe hoping
(27:24):
that I could oh, this is gonnasound I don't know how this is
gonna sound.
Luke (27:27):
Oh, okay. Well, it's uncut. Great.
Cameron (27:31):
That I could disciple us out of this mindset. But I
don't know that I'm I don't knowthat either I I don't know that
I can nor should I. I'm I'mwondering if it should just be
like, no. This is just who weare, and that is our the
community here, the communityhere values, one room.
Luke (27:55):
They do.
Cameron (27:59):
Mhmm. Everyone in the same room.
Luke (28:01):
Yeah. That's been like the unanimous resounding point that
I've heard from everybody islike, oh, thank God. We're all
gonna be in the same room. Yep.Like everyone is excited about
that.
Not I think it I think this isthe thing that maybe you're
commenting on is not fornecessarily the same reasons
(28:23):
we're excited to be in the sameroom. Mhmm. Mhmm.
Cameron (28:28):
Yeah. There's well, I don't wanna say that their
reasons are necessarily bad.Right. They're just but, yeah,
they're different maybe than thereason that we see. And I don't
know.
Like, maybe maybe those reasonsare not so different because I
like that too.
Luke (28:48):
Mhmm. Like having everyone in the
Cameron (28:51):
same room? Everyone in the same room. I like
Luke (28:53):
Community feeling.
Cameron (28:54):
Community, the energy, the excitement, the like, even
from a leadership standpointMhmm. It's like I always I don't
this might be a little bit of anoverstatement, but there were
times where I almost felt like Ineeded to manufacture the
(29:17):
passion of communication aboutsomething that I communicated
passionately once already.
Luke (29:26):
Mhmm.
Cameron (29:27):
You know what I'm saying?
Luke (29:28):
Yeah. Preaching twice Twice is is it's it's own sort
of, like
Cameron (29:33):
Right. But that, you know, that is again, that's it's
a that's a little bit of anoverstatement. I was I've I
don't operate from, like, asense of being disingenuous in
the pulpit ever.
Luke (29:45):
Yeah.
Cameron (29:48):
But it there's a sense of, like well, I told one half
of our community something oncealready, and I'm gonna tell the
other half of it again. And so Iyeah. I do appreciate the kind
of the uncut nature of havingeveryone in one room Mhmm. At
(30:09):
one time. But I think that ourcommunity here really values
that.
And in some respects, there's alot of health around that. They
wanna be they wanna seeeveryone. Yep. They at least
want the opportunity to knoweveryone.
Luke (30:29):
Mhmm.
Cameron (30:30):
Whether or not they seize that opportunity to
actually know everyone, they atleast wanna have a stated, oh,
we could know everyone Right.Yeah. In the room. And and I
think that that goes beyondbeing just the value of this
church.
Luke (30:49):
Mhmm.
Cameron (30:50):
I think that's a value of this region. Yeah. I really
do. I I think I think it's avalue of the greater Chautauqua
County region.
Luke (30:59):
Mhmm.
Cameron (30:59):
And we, it we would I think we would be wise to
consider that going forward. Andthe reason that I say, you know,
in some ways, I have hoped thatI could disciple people out of
that
Luke (31:16):
Mhmm.
Cameron (31:17):
Is because, you know, you there's only there there
there does become a point ofdiminishing returns with one
room. Yes. You know, we'realready at the point where for a
person to know everyone in oneroom, the church of our size is
(31:41):
gonna be a it would be amiraculous feat for every I
don't know everyone. Right. Itry, but just there's just too
many moving parts, you know?
Mhmm. And so for us to for us toif we were to continue to grow,
let's say we just we picked upand moved to a bigger building
Luke (32:04):
Mhmm.
Cameron (32:04):
And we had seating capacity for 500 now. Mhmm. We
might all still be in the sameroom. Right. But that's not the
same type of feeling
Luke (32:13):
Right.
Cameron (32:14):
As a room of 200. Yeah. So the my hope was to say, okay,
the goal is never and has neverbeen to know everyone's name.
Luke (32:30):
Right.
Cameron (32:31):
The goal has always been that whoever is here knows
the name of Jesus. Yeah. That'sthe goal. Mhmm. And and that and
that if it says anything, ifthat value leads us to anything,
it should lead us to a greaterrealization of the importance of
(32:54):
small micro communities withinthe community.
Yeah. Yeah. Smaller groups. Yep.Of people that are your people.
So when you walk into a roomthat has 500 people in it or so,
you know that there's anotherthere's 15 people that are,
like, your people. Yep. Yeah.And so I still think that we
(33:20):
will need to do we will need todo significant work to disciple
people towards that Yeah.Reality that one room is a good
value to have, but but we needto understand why we like that.
Luke (33:37):
Right.
Cameron (33:38):
And then we need to understand the limitations of
that value. Mhmm. And, also,what will we what what will we
be sacrificing or saying no toMhmm. If we're not willing to
explore that value in a criticalway?
Luke (33:56):
Yeah. Because it's I think when we're when we're saying,
like, you know, wanting to knoweveryone in a room, I think the
reason why you both you and Iare cautious of that is because
we we know the dark side ofthat. Mhmm. Because I've been to
churches. I've I've walked intoa church, walked into many
(34:17):
churches, where everyone lookedat me and nobody said hi to me.
Mhmm. Who's that? Mhmm. Don'tknow him. Mhmm.
Right? Mhmm. Or I've been I Idid a, my senior year, I had,
like, a cultural dynamics ofcongregational ministry class.
Cameron (34:40):
Yeah. I would
Luke (34:40):
say. It was interesting. I like it. But I had to do, like,
a sociological study on thischurch. Mhmm.
And the church considered itselfto be very, very welcoming.
Mhmm. But then when I talkedwith people who were new newer
to the community or people whohad managed to hang around long
enough to become part of thecommunity, they all said, yeah.
(35:02):
It was really hard to becomewelcomed into this church.
Cameron (35:06):
Mhmm. Yep.
Luke (35:09):
And but everybody else experiences it as welcoming, but
they've already all been there.
Cameron (35:14):
They've broken through They've broken through that
barrier was
Luke (35:17):
to people. Yeah. And so when I think that's ultimately
what you and I, I think, are areguarding against when when we
talk about the goal isn't toknow everyone in the room is
because sometimes when thatsocial nature of the church, of
the community can turn insularof just like, okay. Well, we've
(35:39):
got I've got my people, and thisis enough, and we don't really
need to worry about anybodywho's outside the door right
now.
Cameron (35:46):
Mhmm.
Luke (35:47):
And and that's, I think, the the thing that you and I are
both guarding against. But atthe same time, it the having a
community, being known, sharing,life together is all absolutely
% a value of Christian communityand church, and you should do
that. I don't think it's greatthat the extreme of, you know,
(36:13):
the church that is able to getso many people through the door,
but every single person is justa seat, and you don't know
anybody. Mhmm. Because I've beento that church too.
Cameron (36:25):
Mhmm.
Luke (36:25):
Where, like, yeah, nobody noticed that I
Cameron (36:28):
was there because Or when I was gone.
Luke (36:31):
Or when I was gone. Like
Cameron (36:33):
Yeah.
Luke (36:33):
There was nothing to be welcomed into because everybody
was just filling in to watchsomething Yep. And then scooting
out. Yeah. And so, like, thatwasn't a community.
Cameron (36:43):
Right. Which is that that's like a value that I we
Luke (36:46):
Right.
Cameron (36:46):
We will that that's the that's the light side of this
value. There are shadow sides tothis value, but that is the
light side of the this value iscreating a community where you
can be known. Mhmm. You're trulyknown Right. And truly cared
for, truly loved.
And I think sometimes people area little bit optimistic about
(37:09):
the size of a community where aperson can be fully known. Yeah.
You know what I'm saying?
Luke (37:15):
Yeah. I know exactly what you're saying.
Cameron (37:16):
Yeah. Like, oh, we have 260 people. Of course, everyone
can be fully known. No. It'snot.
It's very unlikely. Veryunlikely that in a community our
size
Luke (37:27):
People max out at meaningful contacts at about a
50.
Cameron (37:32):
Right. Right. Which is why Conduit has two pastors.
Right. Yep.
It's one of the one of thereasons we have two pastors.
Yeah. There's another value thatI haven't that I'm I'm not quite
sure how to put language to ityet, so I'm just gonna maybe
talk around it
Luke (37:50):
k.
Cameron (37:51):
And see if maybe you can resonate with it. It's
somewhat connected to that oneabout community, but it's like
it's about valuing depth andwidth over
Luke (38:10):
height. Okay. On an individual basis, organizational
basis? Both.
Cameron (38:15):
Yeah? Both. You know, it's like it is like okay. So
I'm like I I consider I don'tmean any of this to be this none
of this is disparaging toprograms or other churches.
Right.
Everything
Luke (38:30):
we're saying is is very much rooted in the church that
we are here.
Cameron (38:34):
Experience here
Luke (38:35):
at condo ministers. Because they're I'll tell you,
like, having ministered for sometime in Chicago, it is very
different than ChautauquaCounty. Yeah. Like, the things
we are doing here would have tolook very different if we were
if I was still in Humboldt ParkOf Chicago.
Cameron (38:52):
Yeah. Yeah. So I think that there's a value of against
stacking a bunch of programs
Luke (39:08):
Mhmm.
Cameron (39:08):
And activity in order to essentially stack the deck
towards someone's spiritualgrowth. Like, if we just get
enough programs into the churchand get enough people into those
programs by pure value by bypure osmosis and saturation,
(39:35):
they will grow. They will becomedisciples. Okay. Stack, stack,
stack, stack, stack, stack,stack.
Women's ministry, men'sministry, adult ministry, young
adult ministry, youth ministry,kids ministry, like
Luke (39:48):
Left handed ministry.
Cameron (39:50):
Left handed ministry, knitters ministry. You know,
like, you you you get what I'msaying. Like, everyone knows the
thing. And and it becomes likeit just kind of feels like
you're just chasing your tailand just trying to hit every
single corner of sociologicaldemographic in order to, yeah,
(40:15):
saturate a ministry environmenthoping that one of the bible
studies you do, sticks. Mhmm.
And I think that there comes apoint where the stacking of
those things becomes tooprecariously tippy.
Luke (40:38):
Mhmm.
Cameron (40:38):
Because you stack them tall without any it's like
second soil. Yeah. You know,like, grows fast. A person grows
fast in that environment. Mhmm.
But then the rootedness seems tobe wanting a little bit. Sure.
(41:04):
What I feel like we're doing bygoing to one service is we're
kind of like I don't know whyI'm getting this imagery. It was
kinda like we're kinda liketaking a Jenga approach to our
any programmatic or, like,vertical growth.
Luke (41:25):
Uh-huh.
Cameron (41:25):
We're just kinda, like, popping blocks Okay. Out of it.
Yeah. Alright. Pop.
Pop. Pop. Yeah.
Luke (41:34):
This is a very anxiety inducing analogy camera. Sorry.
Just saying it
Cameron (41:39):
as it comes to my head. And we're saying, alright. We're
we're taking things away toeliminate any really any
distraction
Luke (41:56):
Mhmm.
Cameron (41:58):
Even good things. Mhmm. Really good things, like a
second service that fits morepeople.
Luke (42:04):
Mhmm.
Cameron (42:05):
We're taking away really good things so that we
can pursue the greater thingthat will bring, like, depth in
the roots.
Luke (42:18):
Yeah. Mhmm.
Cameron (42:20):
And so,
Luke (42:29):
what? Did you just sing of another crazy night?
Cameron (42:31):
I I did. Okay. I really did. What? It's like I think
it's actually the question whatlike, it's similar to one of the
questions that I asked you whenyou first came here and we did
the interview.
Like, would you rather fightwould you rather fight, one
horse sized duck or a thousandduck sized horses. You know? If
(42:59):
you had to fight one, would yourather fight one horse?
Luke (43:03):
Not what I was ready for you
Cameron (43:05):
to say. And, the reason that I was thinking that was
like, is there is like a diethere's a there's a dynamic of
(43:27):
would you rather we could say Iprobably could have just said it
like this. As a pastor, wouldyou rather serve a church of 500
people who are a quarter inchdeep or 250 people who are 12
feet deep? Right. No.
(43:50):
And I think that our contextvalues the depth Mhmm. The 12
feet deep, 250 people, ratherthan the quarter inch deep, 500
people. Yeah. And so and thereason why that we had we would
(44:10):
have that conversation when itcomes to one service is it is
precisely for the reason that itis it is in transformative it is
in an tangible encounter withGod that our capacity for growth
(44:33):
to the image and likeness ofJesus gets magnified. Right.
It is it is like, I I, wasreading something something that
Batterson wrote. It was anarticle. And he he said
something he described revivalas when you get decades and
(44:56):
days. And, and like that, Ithat's kind of like the that's
getting what you see in thebook. I'm reading through acts
right now, my personaldevotions, and you just see,
like I mean, they're getting indays what the church in America
gets in decades.
Luke (45:16):
Mhmm.
Cameron (45:19):
And, and I think that the that the tangible presence
of God brings a transformativepower, conforming people to the
image and likeness of Jesus sothat the so that the depth that
(45:42):
they would get in decades fromprogrammatic ministry, they get
in days in the presence of theLord.
Luke (45:50):
Mhmm.
Cameron (45:51):
I said all those funny Jenga analogies and horse and
duck analogies to say that lineright there.
Luke (45:59):
Yeah. I, like, I I think your first way of saying it, I
think, is I think can applybecause I think this value goes
even systematically maybe for usis we're interested in in
reaching deep and wide Mhmm. Nottall.
Cameron (46:19):
Right.
Luke (46:20):
The difference being tall is very visible. Mhmm. It it's
really big. It's flashy. It'sexciting.
It's accessible. You'll capturea lot. Mhmm. Deep and wide, most
of what you see or you don't seemost of it because it's deep.
Yeah.
It's underneath the surface.Yep. You can't see it as much.
(46:42):
It's more spread out.
Cameron (46:43):
Mhmm.
Luke (46:44):
But that type of work bears the fruit sticks.
Cameron (46:49):
Mhmm.
Luke (46:50):
The the work that you're kind of doing is going to bear
fruit in a in a different way.
Cameron (47:00):
It's what yeah. It's what, like, Leslie Dubigan
called the open secret. It waslike the it's the the deep and
wide is like the open secret.It's it's not a secret, but,
like, everything's under thesurface. It's actually secret.
You know?
Luke (47:16):
Exactly. And you were talking about programmatic
ministry. And, like, the thingis is, well, if I start coming
to this church because, like,oh, like, they got a Dungeons
and Dragons theology ministry.I'm going to that. Mhmm.
Cameron (47:30):
Because
Luke (47:30):
that makes me really excited, and that's my, like,
thing.
Cameron (47:33):
Mhmm.
Luke (47:34):
And then one day, your guy budget cuts or whatever, and
we're done with that ministry.
Cameron (47:39):
Yeah.
Luke (47:40):
Well, I'm not gonna be here anymore.
Cameron (47:42):
Yeah.
Luke (47:42):
And you see that a lot with things that are kind of
built tall is
Cameron (47:49):
falls away. And you actually see it, you know what?
I see it, which which I think iskinda like a disturbing trend,
is what I would call or considera la carte ministry. We go there
for the preaching. We go to thatchurch for the men's ministry.
We go to that. We send our kidsto that church for the youth
(48:10):
ministry, but we really love thewomen's ministry at that church.
So we just a la carte things,and and, like, it becomes like a
well, like, what this is not abuff like, this is not a buffet
Luke (48:31):
Mhmm.
Cameron (48:32):
But it's just grabbing at whatever program at each
specific location works for me.I think it's just a really shaky
foundation and a reallydangerous way to look at
engagement in the body.
Luke (48:50):
See, I wasn't initially thinking about that in like a
completely negative format,honestly.
Cameron (48:56):
Mhmm.
Luke (48:57):
Because I was I was thinking about I was like, well,
I know that a lot of people dothat simply because, like,
there's some things that justaren't offered it. Like like,
we're our context, we don'thave, like, a lot of churches
that are huge. No. Like, we'renot, you know, we're not in the
suburbs of some metropolitancity.
Cameron (49:19):
Biggest church in our county, in two counties, is,
like, 400 people.
Luke (49:23):
Right. And that's, like, I know people that would consider
that very small. Right. Mhmm.And and so, like, you know, not
every church is gonna be able tooffer like, there's so many
people who will, you know, say,well, Pastor Pruitt, could we do
this, or could you offer this?
(49:44):
And I'm just like, if I had thecapacity, I would.
Cameron (49:48):
Mhmm.
Luke (49:48):
I don't I don't have the capacity, or I don't have the
people, or just don't have theor that's just not where our
focus is right now because wegotta focus on this other thing.
Cameron (49:57):
Mhmm.
Luke (49:59):
And so, I was kind of thinking, like, well, it's not
necessarily a bad thing to tohave a more ecumenical approach
to, you know, well, you go herefor this and there for that in a
but I wasn't thinking in, like,an an extreme, though,
necessarily, in a degree intowhich that you're not known
(50:22):
anywhere.
Cameron (50:22):
Yeah. That's that's my I I'm all for ecumenism,
ecumenicism, and ecumenicalspirit. I'm all for that.
Luke (50:33):
SAT word. Yes.
Cameron (50:35):
I think it's I think it's great. I encourage people
to come from other churches toour ministries here if we're if
they're good. I encourage ourpeople to go to other ministries
at other churches if they'regood. There is a lot of benefit
in that, but I think the dangerof it is that we we run the risk
(50:58):
of creating a we we run the riskof creating a transient
community within our owncommunity Mhmm. That has no
actual rootedness, has very it'svery skeptical as to whether or
(51:21):
not there's any pastoralleadership over that person or
authority.
Luke (51:24):
Right.
Cameron (51:25):
Or if they're known Mhmm. At any place or giving or
serving or it just becomes a, Ithink, a really a lot of a lot
of questions Yeah. Kinda rise upin me about it. So I don't think
it's it's not universally a badthing, but I think it has the
(51:49):
potential to be really,troubling. And I'm curious as to
I'm curious as to what it saysto kind of, like, a, a
(52:11):
perspective of individualismMhmm.
Within the church. Like, itwe're just pursuing wherever it
is individually best for us, notconsidering what our absence in
(52:31):
a particular community Mhmm.Does to or steals away from the
rest of the body in that place.
Luke (52:39):
Yeah. You
Cameron (52:40):
know, we we usually talk about we usually talk about
our participation in the bodywhen we talk about, like, first
Corinthians 12 and stuff likethat. Yep. But we don't often
talk about what What our absencemeans. Absence. Mhmm.
What the type of gap that thatleaves in the church. Yeah. And
how that inadvertently is arefusal to serve others with the
(53:03):
gifts that god has given to us.Mhmm. By saying, well, no.
I just come here for thepreaching.
Luke (53:08):
Yeah. Right.
Cameron (53:10):
I just come here for the youth group.
Luke (53:12):
Mhmm.
Cameron (53:15):
So well, I do think there's benefits to it, of
course. I think that there I'mI'm skeptical that it is gonna
actually produce a a reallyformed disciple.
Luke (53:29):
Mhmm. Yep. I agree. Yeah. So we're going back to one
service.
Cameron (53:34):
We're going back to one service.
Luke (53:35):
Back to one service. It's as crazy as, as it sounds. We're
kinda out of time to kind ofexplore other, like, other
avenues, but, like, suffice itto say, it's not because we we
don't need two services. We do.We're preferably and creatively
(53:55):
exploring what it means tostretch this facility
Cameron (53:58):
Yep.
Luke (53:59):
Or what, you know, what could two services look like,
but in a different way. Yep. Orwe're not we're not throwing too
many options off the table.We're being prayerful and
thoughtful about all of them.
Cameron (54:14):
Mhmm.
Luke (54:15):
You know? So we're not committed.
Cameron (54:18):
Mhmm.
Luke (54:18):
You know, we try I think I
Cameron (54:19):
think
Luke (54:19):
we, generally, at least as a staff, do a good job of not
idolizing our methodology tootoo much.
Cameron (54:29):
Oh, I'm so grateful for that. Yeah. Mhmm.
Luke (54:32):
Because that, yeah. That can just be I like, when you get
into a place where you're justlike, well, this is what we do.
Like, there was a church that Iwas connected to briefly in
Chicago. They were a, like,satellite or, like, branch of a
bigger church out in the in thesuburbs. And, you know, suburbs
(54:55):
out in Chicago, like, everyone'scoming home for Christmas, you
gotta have a Christmas Eveservice.
Mhmm. Big. Right?
Cameron (55:01):
Mhmm.
Luke (55:02):
You have these big productions out there, all that.
Mhmm. And so they told theirlittle satellite church in
Chicago, well, you have to havea Christmas Eve service. And
they were like, it's going to bethe people serving and no one
else. Mhmm.
And they were right. Mhmm. Andit was the same thing when the
church I was serving, we neverdid a Christmas Eve service
Cameron (55:24):
Mhmm.
Luke (55:24):
Because it was only ever going to be us. Mhmm. Because if
you weren't a historic church,people might, if they live in
the city, go to a historicchurch on Christmas Eve. Mhmm.
But most people who lived in thecity weren't from the city.
Cameron (55:40):
Mhmm.
Luke (55:40):
And they went out to the suburbs. Mhmm. And so you almost
ended up ministering to nobodyon Christmas Eve. And so we
never did Christmas Eve service,but this one church did because
the church that was in charge ofthem out in suburbs just
couldn't conceive of not doing aa Christmas Eve service.
Cameron (55:56):
Mhmm.
Luke (55:57):
The methodology, the value had just become so sacred Yeah.
That they couldn't conceive ofnot doing one Yep. In the city.
Yeah. Anyways, that's my littlestory on don't don't get too
attached to your method.
Cameron (56:12):
Yeah. Slaughter the sacred cows.
Luke (56:14):
Mhmm. Mhmm.
Cameron (56:17):
Okay. Thanks for listening. We appreciate your
your bearing with us in theseconversations, your interaction.
You can always we alwaysencourage you to like,
subscribe, share, comment, postit on your socials, whatever you
feel this conversation isvaluable, and we will catch you
(56:39):
on the next episode.
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