June 3, 2024 • 51 mins
In this episode of the Uncut podcast, Pastor Luke and Pastor Cameron discuss marriage, drawing from personal experiences. They emphasize the importance of open communication, addressing issues like finances, roles, and unspoken expectations that can lead to resentment. The conversation critiques oversimplified views on marriage, cultural stereotypes, and misconceptions within Christian circles. The hosts share anecdotes of challenges and growth in their marriages, concluding with an invitation for listener questions and a future sermon series on marriage.
- (00:05) - Introduction to Marriage Discussion
- (00:55) - Marriage Conference Announcement
- (02:47) - Importance of Perspective in Marriage
- (02:58) - Reflecting on Years of Marriage
- (03:07) - Newness vs. Experience in Relationships
- (04:33) - Common Issues in Marriage Counseling
- (07:17) - Understanding Lifestyle Values in Finances
- (09:37) - Lifestyle Choices and Financial Decisions
- (10:31) - Impact of Unspoken Expectations
- (13:49) - Unspoken Expectations and Resentment
- (16:28) - The Importance of Healthy Communication
- (22:34) - Articulating Expectations in Marriage
- (24:21) - Importance of Healthy Communication Styles
- (29:57) - Unspoken Expectations and Household Chores
- (33:28) - Navigating Financial Struggles in Marriage
- (38:58) - Challenging Christian Stereotypes in Marriage
- (43:58) - Misunderstandings of Submission in Marriage
- (46:20) - Rethinking Stereotypical Relationship Dynamics
- (46:42) - Misconceptions Surrounding Marriage
- (48:22) - Evolving Views on Love Languages
- (49:05) - Marriage Conference and Sermon Series Announcements
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Luke (00:05):
Welcome to The Uncut Podcast. I'm pastor Luke.
Cameron (00:09):
And I'm pastor Cameron.
Luke (00:10):
And this is The Uncut Podcast where we have honest,
uncut conversations about faith,life.
Cameron (00:17):
Ministry sponsored by Jocko again this week. Yep. I'm
gonna see Jocko
Luke (00:23):
Yeah.
Cameron (00:23):
In just a few months. So I'm gonna tell him that I
drink his energy drinks on mypodcast all the time, and he
should sponsor us.
Luke (00:33):
You're gonna tell him what the podcast is about?
Cameron (00:35):
I will. Yeah. Yep. Mhmm.
Luke (00:40):
Yeah. What is the podcast about today, Cameron?
Cameron (00:42):
Today, I thought we'd talk a little bit about
marriage.
Luke (00:45):
Yeah. Mhmm.
Cameron (00:48):
Been studying a lot about marriage lately. Been
thinking a lot about marriagelately. We have a marriage
conference coming up here atConduit. We do. The weekend of
October 19th.
Luke (01:01):
Mhmm.
Cameron (01:01):
19th 20th. It's gonna be a Friday evening and then an
all day Saturday.
Luke (01:08):
Yep. It's
Cameron (01:09):
gonna be I'm believing it to be a great, experience for
married and engaged couples aswell. Mhmm. So if that's
something that interests you,mark it on your calendar now,
and there'll be more detailscoming out, here as we get
closer to October. But, anyway,I'm also studying a lot about
(01:30):
marriage this week. Yeah.
Been thinking a lot aboutmarriage this year.
Luke (01:35):
Mhmm.
Cameron (01:36):
Both because of the marriage conference and because
this is, this year, Sherry and Ionly have been married 20 years
Wow. Which feels to me like amilestone.
Luke (01:52):
Yeah. I
Cameron (01:52):
don't like, I know, like sometimes it's like the 25
year anniversary and the 50 yearanniversary. Like my in laws
just had their 50 yearanniversary this weekend, this
weekend, this past weekend, sowe celebrated that with them.
But, I think what we learn aboutmarriage is also a lot about
(02:13):
what we learn about ourselves.Mhmm. And, so I thought, you
know, there's enough there'senough collective wisdom about
marriage that we can talk aboutit, I think, or at least talk
about perspectives.
And I think that what I reallylike is your perspective.
Luke (02:35):
Oh, yes.
Cameron (02:36):
Yeah. Because, you know, there is a, sometimes it's
difficult for people who havebeen married a while to remember
what it's been what it's like tobe married a short period of
(02:58):
time. And I would say you guyslike, your this will be your 2nd
anniversary coming up.
Luke (03:03):
Yep. Yep.
Cameron (03:04):
So 2 year anniversary this summer. And a
Luke (03:06):
half and some change. Yeah.
Cameron (03:07):
Yep. We're not this summer, but this fall. Yep. And
so I think to similar to what wedid when you came to work here
Luke (03:20):
Mhmm.
Cameron (03:20):
And we're like, I wanted to grab onto your newness
of being here Yes. Yeah. To tellus tell us the things about
Conduit and about the ministrythat we had become blind to
Luke (03:33):
Mhmm.
Cameron (03:35):
Because of our proximity to it. I think that
there's value also in askingyou, like, some of your
reflections on marriage in thefirst few years Yeah. For those
who, you know, are maybe hopingto get married or are engaged to
be married now or who are newlymarried and and, to just try and
(03:56):
get a sense of like, all right,how do we talk about marriage?
What are the things that wewanna talk about in marriage?
What are the things that areimportant?
And, thought we would just jumpoff
Luke (04:10):
Yeah.
Cameron (04:10):
Into the deep end.
Luke (04:11):
Let's do it.
Cameron (04:12):
Jump off into the deep end there. I also, you know,
like I it it's it, I do I'vedone a fair amount a fair bit,
of both premarital counselingand marriage counseling Mhmm.
(04:34):
Counseling for married couples.And kind of without fail, there
are a few issues that are theissues.
Luke (04:49):
Yep.
Cameron (04:51):
Really is. Mhmm. So if you had to guess, at least from
my experience in counseling withthese couples, is what would be
the issues that couples, marriedcouples, face that that that
(05:12):
motivate them to get an outsideperspective? Motivate them to
come and see me or come and seesomeone else who can help them
process through their theirthings?
Luke (05:22):
Money, like money differences, sex, expectations
around, like, roles inside ofside of the family, like and
like children, parenting,wouldn't have kids.
Cameron (05:42):
Mhmm. And
Luke (05:47):
yeah. Those would probably be like no. I'm honestly, I'm
just kind of going off the listof what, like, I know you talk
about in your primary counselingand also what I know is, like,
included in every premaritalcounseling, like Yeah. Book.
Yeah.
Those those are typically theones that, like, that people get
(06:12):
hung up on.
Cameron (06:13):
Mhmm.
Luke (06:14):
Because they're kind of they're big and everybody has
thoughts about them, but theymaybe don't realize they have
thoughts or opinions about them.
Cameron (06:21):
Yeah.
Luke (06:22):
And so, and the hard thing too is is that when you decide
to get engaged, you almostimmediately start making
financial decisions together,whether or not you've actually
talked through.
Cameron (06:36):
You have the same values about your resources.
Luke (06:38):
Exactly. And so you're immediately in this place of,
oh, well, we're going to get avenue and a photographer and
Cameron (06:44):
we're going to,
Luke (06:45):
or are we going to put a down payment on a house and
start making all these financialdecisions together. And you may
have not, you may have not been,you may have not talked through
how to integrate your financesmy money? Is it your my money?
(07:08):
Is it your money?
Cameron (07:09):
Like, all those questions. I think what I found
is that, like, While, like, thethe conversation about finances
is an important one Mhmm. Ithink it is even broader than
finances. I think it comes downto, how how do I say it? It's
(07:34):
like determining your like, thelifestyle that each individual
values.
Luke (07:42):
Mhmm.
Cameron (07:43):
Yep. You know, because generally, everyone has the
same, like, finances financequestions or questions about
finances. If you just talkabout, like, like, people are
gonna have the right answers forfinances. You can't spend more
than you make. You need to savefor retirement.
(08:05):
You Yeah. Should have a budgetand, you know, everything like
that. But what happens is that,like, I'm only, like, 50% a Dave
Ramsey subscriber. But, youknow, one of the things that he
says and I agree with is thatdealing with finances is like,
(08:30):
10% knowledge. Mhmm.
What to do. Yep. And 90%behavior. Yeah. The willingness
to do Mhmm.
What you need to do with whatyou know. Yeah. And so when it
comes to the conversation aroundfinances with couples, it's more
(08:52):
about like, okay. What type oflifestyle do each of you value?
Mhmm.
And that usually gets intoconversations around like
there's, you know Yep. Someone'sa spender or someone's a saver
Luke (09:10):
Yeah.
Cameron (09:10):
Or someone values this type of vacation or that type of
vacation or someone values thistype of home or that type of
home Yep. Or someone values
Luke (09:20):
The flexibility to make incidental purchases.
Cameron (09:23):
Right. Yep. Right. Or someone values, you know, one of
the one one of the partnersstaying at home
Luke (09:31):
Mhmm.
Cameron (09:31):
To raise a family or to take care or the other partner
both they both wanna work. Andlike, so it then becomes like a
what type of lifestyle ratherthan necessarily like how are
you gonna build a budgettogether. Mhmm. It's part of it.
Yep.
But the conversation is muchbigger. It has a lot more, I
(09:54):
guess, like, tributaries to itMhmm. Than just dollars and
cents.
Luke (09:59):
Yeah. It it certainly does.
Cameron (10:01):
Yeah. But I you know, you're you're right in a lot of
ways about the things that, Ifeel like are tend to be, tend
to be, categories that peoplewanna talk about or need to talk
about. The expectations, likeYeah. Is is a big one. Yeah.
(10:21):
You know, like, we carryexpectations into every
relationship that we have. Mhmm.I have expectations for you, and
you have expectations of me,both as friends and as
colleagues and all of that. And,you have expectations for your
wife, and she has expectationsof you. And and I've got them
for my wife and she has them forme.
And the question is not whetheror not we have expectations of
(10:43):
the other person in ourrelationship with them. It's
whether or not thoseexpectations are clear and have
been communicated. Yeah. And whywould you say it's important to
clearly communicate ourexpectations that we have in any
relationship with people?
Luke (11:00):
Well, I think it's because, like, that's on on on
what what's the quote? Unspokenexpectations are is a recipe for
disappointment or something likethat. Like or disappointment is
is just unspoken expectations.
Cameron (11:18):
Like,
Luke (11:20):
It's funny, I had a professor who would
occasionally, he was also apastor in the community, and so
he would occasionally dopremarital counseling for some
of the students and things likethat, which like he's not He's
more of a pre I've alwaysthought of him as more of a
preacher and less of a pastor orshepherd. But from someone who
(11:44):
went through his premaritalcounseling, I heard that, like,
one of the questions that he hewould kind of bring this up in
this kind of way of saying, sodo you just squeeze the
toothpaste or do you roll thetoothpaste tube? Okay. And and
his whole idea is just that,like, are you gonna share
(12:07):
toothpaste tubes? Are you guyshave gonna have your own
toothpaste?
Is it gonna bug you when youcome in and like your wife is
just kind of randomly squeezethe toothpaste tube and when you
prefer to roll it or whatever? Ithink it's somewhat ridiculous
that he goes down into that kindof granularity.
Cameron (12:23):
It definitely is. But there is some value in it.
Luke (12:28):
There's some value into it. And his point being is just
simply is that, like, what areyour expectations around
toothpaste?
Cameron (12:37):
Well, there's things that see the the the and here's
how I talk about it, is that weall kind of enter into marriage
with a a picture in my our mindof what it's gonna be like.
Yeah. How we're gonna livetogether, how we're gonna spend
our time, what our home is gonnabe like. Mhmm. All of that.
(12:58):
And we almost always create theidyllic image. Of course. Why
would why would we create thedisappointing image? So we
almost always create the idyllicimage and then if you don't have
someone that helps you expressthose expectations pre marriage,
you carry those in with you.
Luke (13:18):
Mhmm.
Cameron (13:20):
And then what happens? Well, she rolls the toothpaste
instead of squeezes it. And theidyllic image of what it meant
to live together in crumblingdown. Yeah. Holy matrimony comes
crumbling down.
The whole house of cards fallson the toothpaste.
Luke (13:37):
Yeah.
Cameron (13:38):
And yeah. And then you're left either having to say
something
Luke (13:43):
Mhmm.
Cameron (13:45):
Or you don't say anything because realize how
silly it is. But that doesn'teliminate that thing that's in
your heart, that expectationthat's in your heart. Mhmm. And
so unspoken expectations thatthen get broken Mhmm. By the
people we love Yep.
And then we don't communicateand compromise on our
(14:08):
expectations for the other Yep.End up becoming seeds of
resentment Yes. That lead toroots of bitterness. Yep. And so
when we have things that wedon't communicate as
expectations and then they getbroken Mhmm.
It creates gaps. Yeah. And thosegaps get filled with with
(14:32):
resentment and bitterness, whichis never the place that we want
our our, you know, those themost intimate of our
relationships to be.
Luke (14:40):
Yeah. Well, I heard it said that resentment if you
notice resentment in yourself,it's probably because they are
behaving in a way in which youdo not feel permission to behave
yourself. And I've found that tobe, it's not like that's not the
root of all resentment, but it'sa root of a lot of it. I think
(15:03):
particularly for couples, if oneof us has a value of, well, say,
we'll stick with the money one,for example, say we're not
allowed to make any purchasesabove $100 without, like, you
know, or as far as, like,preapproved purchases. Right?
Yeah. You know, non budgeted,You can make it a budget a non
budgeted expense as long as it'sunder $100 or something like
(15:25):
that. Anything above that, oh, Iwould never I would never
purchase something that's 150,200, $300 without first making
sure my wife is okay with it.But then if she were to, to to
not hold that rule orexpectation that's invisible
inside of my head, and then shegoes and does does that,
(15:45):
resentment could come out of it.And you'd be like, oh, so mad
that she bought that thing.
Cameron (15:51):
Mhmm.
Luke (15:51):
And you're angry. Why? Because she behaved in a way
that you felt you couldn't orshouldn't because of certain
value or conviction you held.And then you're in that place of
what do you do? Do youcommunicate it?
Do you just roll over it? Do younot say anything? Does it build
into bitterness over time? Yep.And that's that's where it is.
(16:15):
And it's because and this is oneof the things. This is not
wisdom from me. This I've heardthis from other places, I think.
But that, like, it's easy, Ithink, particularly in, like,
the quote unquote honeymoonstages to just be like, oh, it's
not a big deal. Right?
(16:37):
But you're just getting close toyour 20 year, I mean, a year and
a half. Is the thing that is nota big deal a year and a half in
going to be a how big of a dealis it gonna be 20 years in?
Cameron (16:51):
Yeah. It it it's it won't be the thing anymore.
Luke (16:55):
Mhmm.
Cameron (16:56):
But it will be the thing. It will be the seed that
created the root Mhmm. That grewthe tree that now is shading the
entire marriage. Right. Youknow?
And there's a 1,000 other thingsin the branches of that tree.
Luke (17:11):
Yep.
Cameron (17:12):
Now and it really is not even about that thing
anymore. No. It's about, itcomes down to probably the main
thing, the main thing ish themain thing ish with all all of
(17:32):
healthy marriages is the abilityto effectively and healthily
communicate. Yeah. So, so it itit becomes like if we can't
communicate how an expectationis not met in our heart and it
(17:53):
just sits there
Luke (17:54):
Mhmm.
Cameron (17:55):
Then there can never be any, like it can only turn into
resentment. Yeah. It can onlyturn into bitterness. But we
have to be willing to we have tobe willing to say something.
Mhmm.
And that that that talk has tohas to, at some point, be in a
(18:17):
healthy way because we cancommunicate and communicate very
aggressively Mhmm. Very,abusively, very, very poorly.
Very like we can communicate. Wecan communicate with our non
communication. Yeah.
You know? Right. The silenttreatment is communication. You
(18:38):
know? Yeah.
And so, you know, the the thingabout the the whole question
that I I started with is thatyou're right. All of those
issues do usually come up. It'susually I start really every
(19:01):
marriage counseling session andpremarital session with kind of
getting a sense of like, reallyit's more premarital than not,
but is to get a sense of 1, likewhat is a person's view on
marriage?
Luke (19:18):
Mhmm.
Cameron (19:19):
Like, what what are the things that they are carrying
into this relationship?
Luke (19:24):
Yep.
Cameron (19:27):
That is that will inform their perspective on
marriage. Yep. And that'susually like a tell me the
marriages that you saw growingup. Yeah. Your parents felt and
how you and and how you feltabout them.
Yeah. How they affected you,both negative and positive.
Because not everyone has justnegative views of marriage. Some
(19:51):
people have super, superpositive
Luke (19:54):
Yeah.
Cameron (19:54):
Examples of marriage in their life, and they wanna take
those examples and carry thelessons that they've learned
into their own marriage. Andsome people are, like, the
complete opposite, and mostpeople are a little bit of both.
Not everyone's marriage noteveryone's parents' marriages is
the marriage that they talkabout. Sometimes it's their
grandparents. Sometimes it'stheir friends or nate and uncle
(20:15):
or an older sibling or whatever.
But what's your like, what kindof stuff are you bringing into
your perspective on marriage?Like, okay, so let's now to get
separately as 2 individualpeople, let's create let's
create some let's describe writeit writing it down. Let's
(20:39):
describe our view of an idyllicmarriage. Mhmm. The marriage
that we want to create, themarriage that's in our head, the
marriage that we've dreamed of,the marriage of, you know, like,
that we've always wanted,avoiding the things that we saw
growing up that we don't want,adding in the things that we do
want.
Mhmm. Right? And let's do itaround these general categories.
(21:02):
Yep. Let's do it aroundhousehold responsibilities and
kind of like how we're gonna dolife together.
The practicalities. Mhmm. Let'sdo it around life lifestyle and
value, like this value of ourlifestyle and finances and that
kind of stuff. Let's describehow we're gonna think about our
sexual relationship, thefrequency, what is allowed,
(21:25):
what's not allowed,
Luke (21:27):
who
Cameron (21:27):
we're gonna talk to about it, who we're not gonna
talk to about it, you know, allof those things, family of
origin type of things. How arewe each gonna interact with our
families now that we're married?Yeah. Right. And how we're as
individuals, how are we gonna,like, interact with our families
once we're married?
Luke (21:45):
Right. We're gonna allow the the, like, the classic
mother-in-law dynamics to playout? Are we Right. Whose family
are we going to for Thanksgivingand Christmas? Like, all of
those things.
Cameron (21:58):
Yep. Mhmm. Which ends up being you usually a pretty
big one for people.
Luke (22:04):
Yeah.
Cameron (22:07):
And then, what was the last one? Oh, obviously, like
like faith, spirituality.
Luke (22:14):
Mhmm.
Cameron (22:14):
Like, how are we gonna live together in, you know,
integrating our Right.Individual walks with Jesus. And
so okay. Then now make a listof, as far as those categories
are concerned, all of theidyllic things that you can
imagine about what your marriageis gonna be. Mhmm.
Don't share them with eachother. So you make them
(22:35):
separately. Mhmm. Next session,we're gonna come in together,
and I want to watch the dynamicof you communicating your heart
to the other. Mhmm.
So you watch them communicateit. Alright? And then you give
the other person the opportunityto respond to
Luke (22:54):
Mhmm.
Cameron (22:55):
What has been said.
Luke (22:57):
Right.
Cameron (22:57):
And so the whole of the exercise is 1, is the ability to
articulate what I want, theability of the other to hear
what I've said, to interpret itin to interpret it inside their
own head and say it back, so tointeract with it. Because
(23:20):
sometimes, the expectations thatone person has of a marriage is
are unrealistic. Right. Noteverything that's idyllic is
reality.
Luke (23:30):
Right.
Cameron (23:32):
Kind of a classic example would be someone who's
like who write writes on theexpectation. I have an
expectation that we are gonnahave sex 7 times a week Right.
While we're married.
Luke (23:42):
Unrealistic for most people.
Cameron (23:45):
For most people. Right? Unless both people are saying,
like, that's the reality. That'swhat we will like That's what
you want. Oh, okay.
Good for you. Right. But it'sprobably it's probably
unrealistic.
Luke (23:57):
It's on the it's on one side of the bell curve.
Cameron (23:59):
Correct.
Luke (23:59):
Right? It's not the it's not the average.
Cameron (24:01):
Right. So what do we do now as the person who didn't
write that, who thinks, oh mygosh, I can't do like I can't
live up to that expectation.
Luke (24:09):
Right.
Cameron (24:09):
What do we do? Do we hold those thoughts in our in
our heart in fear?
Luke (24:15):
Or do we
Cameron (24:15):
or do we, or do we say, I think that's an unrealistic
expectation. Can we find somekind of compromise? Mhmm. Right.
And it's in those moments wherewe learn to speak and we find
the we we we work together tofind the compromise or I learn
why the other person feels like7 days a week is important to
(24:37):
them.
Luke (24:37):
Right.
Cameron (24:38):
So so now I become I get to become curious about why
would they say why would that besome tell me why that's
important to you. Right. Andthat whole conversation brings
just like a flood ofinformation.
Luke (24:54):
Yeah. Well, that's the thing is that it's it's rarely,
like you said, it's rarely thething. Mhmm. Right? Like, if
it's I feel like like sex is abig one, and sex is always
something other than just sex,usually.
(25:16):
There's usually layers to it.Right? It's not just about the
thing itself. There's emotionalcomponents to
Cameron (25:24):
our sexuality that some of us are aware of.
Luke (25:24):
Some of us are sexuality that some of us are aware of,
some of us are completelyoblivious to, but they're
they're there. Mhmm. And theyimpact the thoughts we have
about that. And the same goes tojust about everything. Right?
There's these values and thesedesires or needs, or there's a
story. Like, well, myexpectation is that, I don't
(25:50):
know, dinner's on the tableevery single night. Mhmm. But my
expectation is also that I willbe home every night for dinner.
Cameron (25:57):
Exactly.
Luke (25:57):
Right. Well, what's the story behind that?
Cameron (25:59):
Right.
Luke (26:00):
Well, my dad never came home and he wasn't home every
night. Right. And like and mymom, you know, was, you know,
whatever. Like, there's somesort of story behind that as to
why that's formulated as anexpectation. It's got to do with
family of origin or a familythey saw, and they're like, my
family wasn't like that, but Isaw a family like that, and I
(26:22):
saw how connected they were.
And so now I've I've tied thatto the husband comes home every
day, and they have mealtogether, the wife is cooked.
And that's I want not just that,I want what that results in in
my mind as well. And so when youget to that, you're like, oh,
well, we can achieve that anumber of different ways. And it
(26:44):
doesn't have to be that I cook ameal for us every single night.
Cameron (26:47):
Yep.
Luke (26:48):
And all of a sudden, the field of play is open much wider
than it was before.
Cameron (26:53):
Correct. Correct. It's almost never the thing that's
the thing.
Luke (26:58):
Right.
Cameron (26:58):
There's something behind it. And sometimes it's a
big thing. Sometimes it's arelatively small thing.
Luke (27:03):
Yep.
Cameron (27:03):
But the goal there is not even really necessarily to,
like, get all of theexpectations out in the open
right then and there. The goalis to help them see how to
communicate regularly.
Luke (27:21):
Mhmm.
Cameron (27:22):
How to do that.
Luke (27:23):
So I'll share this one because this, I shared this in a
sermon. So this one's alreadybeen been, it's
Cameron (27:29):
already been. It's already out on the internet.
Luke (27:31):
It's already out on the internet. But, like, this is
just it's a super silly example.But, you know, we've got, like,
mats in the bathroom. Right?And, like, I like, there's this
mat between our toilet kind offaces the faces the the the
shower and there's this squaremat and I'm like, well, that mat
(27:53):
is for when you get out of theshower and you're drying off.
And so it needs to be close tothe shower so that when you get
up and every time I'd go intothe bathroom, I kinda noticed
that, oh, it kind of scoochedover closer to the toilet. And
so I'd kinda scooch it back.Well, that went on for about
over a year. And then finally mywife said, Luke, are we gonna
talk about the fact that youkeep moving the stupid mat in
(28:15):
the bathroom? And I was like,what are you talking about?
You keep moving.
Cameron (28:21):
And then
Luke (28:21):
she was just like, and I had no I had no idea that there
was this, like, silent warbetween us over where this map
belonged to the bathroom. Andshe was like, I thought you just
weren't saying anything. I waslike, I didn't know I wasn't or
I didn't know that you weren't.Mhmm. We were just like
Cameron (28:38):
Yeah.
Luke (28:38):
And so it was immediately humorous because we were both
just like, oh. So now it'sequidistant.
Cameron (28:49):
See the big one.
Luke (28:50):
Just need a big one or yeah. But anyways, like, you
just gotta you gotta talk aboutit though. Yeah. And how and
have a way to talk about itbecause Right.
Cameron (29:02):
Because you make a sum when you when you don't talk, do
you make assumptions about whatthe other person is
Luke (29:07):
Right.
Cameron (29:08):
Their their their motivations, their decisions.
Luke (29:11):
Right.
Cameron (29:12):
And we almost never it's very rare that we make
assumptions in the bestdirection. No. We almost always
make assumptions in the worst.We create a negative narrative
in our mind when we makeassumptions, not a positive one.
Right.
Luke (29:28):
We become mind readers.
Cameron (29:29):
Right.
Luke (29:30):
But we're really bad at it
Cameron (29:32):
because we actually can't read people's minds.
Correct. So the act ofcommunication just actually it
it removes assumption from theequation and allows us to
actually engage with reality,which is usually a lot more
gentle and benign Right. Than weoriginally thought it was.
Luke (29:51):
Yep. So Yeah. Because I just thought the mat kept
moving.
Cameron (29:59):
Yeah. I mean, I've shared a similar story, from our
1st year of marriage about how,you know, one of Sherry's kind
of unspoken, expectations of me.And it was like, I remember as
being like our first kind offight Mhmm. As a married couple.
(30:19):
We don't really fight.
We don't fight. Our firstdisagreement as a married couple
was kind of the unspokenexpectation that I would take
the garbage out when it was fullYep. Without being asked.
Luke (30:34):
We had the same we had the same thing.
Cameron (30:36):
Yeah. Without being asked.
Luke (30:37):
Yep.
Cameron (30:37):
I would just notice that it was full and take it out
without being asked. Mhmm. Ihave no problem taking the
garbage out. I like, totallyfine with me. I don't, like, not
an issue at all.
Yep. My issue with what was justlike a, you know, like, okay.
Well, if you want me to take thegarbage out and I haven't yet,
(31:02):
all you need to do is say, couldyou please take the garbage out?
Mhmm. But she wanted me to takeit out before it was before she
had to ask.
Luke (31:10):
Mhmm.
Cameron (31:11):
She wanted me to notice. Yep. I think what it
comes down to is, like, whatwhat is what is the implicit
expectation underneath all ofthat
Luke (31:19):
Yeah.
Cameron (31:19):
Is that she wanted me to have, like, some perceptive
intentionality Mhmm. About whatneeded done in the house, the
household chores
Luke (31:29):
Mhmm.
Cameron (31:29):
The things that needed done for cleaning and
maintenance and upkeep and stufflike that. And to take an active
role in taking care of thosethings, without being because
what she because her ultimately,her heart behind that is that
(31:52):
she has always wanted tomaintain a lot of distance from
being a, what she calls, anagging wife. Mhmm.
Luke (32:03):
And
Cameron (32:03):
she didn't wanna feel like she was nagging by saying
by, like, having to tell meYeah. An adult, you know, to
take the garbage out.
Luke (32:14):
Mhmm.
Cameron (32:16):
So all of that kind of gets unraveled now by the
conversation Yeah. Of just like,hey, here's what I expected you
to do. Yep. And so, yeah, we hada little a little tiff about it.
But, you know, all in all, ourfirst, man, our first couple
(32:38):
years of marriage were just sogreat.
I mean, I'm I'm serious. Theyjust they were. I feel really
grateful for that because lifewas I don't know. I look back on
it and I'm like, I know we werereally, really stressed. Mhmm.
(33:01):
And I know that we had felt likewe had a lot on our plate. Mhmm.
And we had a lot of it was hardfinancially. I was in seminary.
Mhmm.
She was
Luke (33:13):
making minimum wage
Cameron (33:13):
as a veterinary technician. I was working small
little apartment above a garage.Small little apartment above a
garage, and, you know, wescraped by financially. We ate
(33:34):
so much spaghetti and hamburgerhelper, you know, that 1st year,
You know, regular dinners overat the in laws so that we didn't
have to buy groceries. It wasjust hard.
It was just really hard, but itwas also really just a simple a
(33:56):
simple life. Yeah. You know, nokids. No really like, no what I
would call like jobs ofsignificant consequence. Like we
both had jobs and they wereimportant and we did like did a
good job, but like like, nowSherry's job is as a mom, that's
(34:18):
pretty significant.
Mhmm. And obviously, I'm apastor. I feel like that's
pretty significant too. Yep. Andso life is just much, much, much
more complicated now.
And I look back on it and I'mlike, wow. The simplicity of
what we had then was sobeautiful and I can't say that I
(34:42):
would go back and, like, nothave what we have now, but it's
just like life changes soquickly and perspective change
so quickly. Mhmm. And what'simportant changes so quickly,
and what you think is importantone day, in the next won't be.
(35:04):
And there's just a beauty indoing life like that together
with someone else.
Yeah. And, so I'm reallygrateful for it. But I do
remember, I think it was we justit was hard back then.
Luke (35:21):
Yeah.
Cameron (35:22):
But not in comparison to what we are doing now.
Luke (35:25):
Mhmm.
Cameron (35:26):
But it's like, I think every stage
Luke (35:29):
Presents its own Challenges. Challenges.
Cameron (35:32):
Right.
Luke (35:32):
And, like yeah. And, you know, each generation has their
own, like, I feel like likestereotypes and patterns to kind
of like overcome.
Cameron (35:45):
Yep.
Luke (35:46):
Right? Like, I you know, I was talk actually, it was
interesting. I was talking withone of my brothers the other
day, and he pointed out, andit's something I also have
pretty low tolerance for is,like, the kind of what do you
(36:06):
call it? Like, the like, raggingon one's spouse. Mhmm.
Like, behind their back and kindof like a, old, the old ball and
chain. Like, woah. Like, she'sjust, you know, whatever. He was
just like, yeah. I've got, like,0 tolerance
Cameron (36:22):
for it.
Luke (36:22):
I was like, yeah. Me too. Like, you yep. Like, wanna get
me kind of frustrated and angry?Like Mhmm.
Start talking like that, Andlike, you'll find our
conversation stops pretty quickbecause Yeah. It's not gonna
tolerate it. And I think that'smaybe like an older generation,
generations above me. That'skind of a pattern. But like the
(36:43):
younger generation, mygeneration's got like more, you
know, has kind of different,like, different unhealthy, like,
stereotypes that kind of getmade fun of.
Right? They always show up incomedy, but they, but they're
but they can be true. Right. Thecaricatures. The caricature.
Cameron (37:06):
So there's truth. There is truth there, but the truth
gets magnified to becomenegative. Right? Yeah. Yeah.
Luke (37:12):
There was this there was this real that was going around,
and it was essentially it waslike the wife was like the
husband's like, oh, I'm marriedto my wife. And like, and that
means and then, and then shewould interrupt him and she
would like. So essentially,anytime the husband would go to
say something in this, like,joke, we'd kind of interrupt
(37:35):
him, and the wife's opinion kindof ruled. And you could it was
really interesting to see allthe comments because some people
were like, that's so true.That's exactly how me and my
husband are.
And then other people like, thisis exactly how me and my wife
are, and it's killing me. Right.Like like, it's this, like, oh,
this is, like, just how it is.Like, and it's just kinda funny,
(37:57):
but then, oh, no, that's notactually helpful. Like, just
because it's the reverse ofwhat's maybe happened
traditionally or historically,doesn't mean it's good either.
Cameron (38:08):
Right. Right. You know, I I agree. I think that there's
a there's there's cultural waysthat people perceive or
characterize the husband and howthey characterize the wife,
culture, pop culture, orwhatever. And there's, like,
obviously, there's examples onthe spectrum of those being
(38:29):
true.
It's like the you see it as,like, the knucklehead husband
who who's dumb and stupid.
Luke (38:34):
Homer Simpson.
Cameron (38:34):
Yeah. Can't get anything right.
Luke (38:36):
King of the hell. Yeah.
Cameron (38:37):
And then you see on the other side, it's the nagging
wife. She's always, like, on herhusband's case and like
Luke (38:43):
Everybody loves Raymond.
Cameron (38:44):
Yes. Right.
Luke (38:45):
Yep.
Cameron (38:47):
And I think I that's not honoring Mhmm. To, it's just
an unhonoring position to be into kind of abide by or uphold
(39:08):
those characterizations as beingtrue.
Luke (39:14):
Yeah.
Cameron (39:16):
Outside of your willingness to, if they exist in
your life or in your marriage,to communicate them to your
spouse so that you can work
Luke (39:30):
Yeah.
Cameron (39:30):
Through it. You know? Mhmm. Because our guy can guys
be boneheads, Homer Simpson? Ofcourse, they can.
Luke (39:38):
Sure.
Cameron (39:38):
Can wives be nagging and everyone loves Raymond wife?
Like, yes. Of course, they can.But we can we all have the
capacity and the the tendency todo those things and to be like
that. But, you know, tellingeveryone that my wife is nagging
(39:58):
or telling everyone that myhusband is an idiot is not gonna
solve the problem.
No. It's just gonna make it muchit's actually just gonna make it
worse.
Luke (40:06):
Right. Because then we create a narrative for the other
person to continue to live in.
Cameron (40:11):
Right. And it's just it's it's just dishonoring
Luke (40:13):
Mhmm.
Cameron (40:14):
As well. It doesn't honor the person as your
partner. Yeah. You know, as likePaul says in Ephesians chapter 5
that, like, you, husbands loveyour wives like you love your
own bodies. You know, like theyare part of you.
You are part of them. Like,cannot be separated from one
(40:35):
another. That the the 2 shallbecome 1 flesh. Mhmm. So
anything that you wouldn't wantto be said about you or you
wouldn't say about yourself.
Right? Right. Be careful abouthow we say that about our
spouses. Yeah. So I could reallytalk about marriage a lot.
(41:01):
I feel like all day.
Luke (41:03):
Mhmm. I was gonna kinda ask you. I was like, do you feel
like we kinda talked about somecultural stereotypes. Do you
feel like Christian stereotypes?Like, do you feel like there are
ways in which Christians havetalked about or portrayed or
simplified marriage in acharacterized way that's
unhelpful?
Cameron (41:24):
Yes. I think that there has been an overemphasis on in
the Christian culture, anoveremphasis on wives submitting
(41:45):
to husbands and an underemphasison submitting to one another out
of reverence for the Lord. Mhmm.Just and and the the issue I
think is that the Bible doestalk clearly about wives
submitting to husbands and thatour culture has an understanding
(42:10):
of what submission means.
Luke (42:11):
Right.
Cameron (42:13):
And our general understanding of what that means
is less than. Yep. Not asimportant as unworthy of. Yeah.
That's not a biblicalunderstanding of submission,
which is more about, a a willfulposition that a person takes.
(42:34):
It was a really came out of amilitary term. It was a like a
willful volunteerism, so tospeak, of the position that one
took in relationship to to oneanother Mhmm. In relationship to
another. But it's been used in away to denote worth Mhmm. Rather
(42:55):
than role.
Yeah. So I think that's acharacterization that or that's
a, like, a a it well, I I havemaybe I should finish all those
thoughts is, like and so it cansometimes come, it can sometimes
sometimes come to the pointwhere Christian husbands don't
(43:19):
believe that they have to listento their wives or shouldn't
listen to there's not wisdom inlistening to their wives that
there's not any place for themto
Luke (43:30):
because then they they just say, well, you're not
submitting to me by not justletting me make the decision I
want.
Cameron (43:35):
Correct. Right. Right. They're not they're they're
misunderstanding, which is atheir their misunderstanding how
their submission to Christ
Luke (43:51):
Mhmm.
Cameron (43:52):
Affects how they show up in their marriage. Mhmm. And
so I think that's one is thewhole idea of mutually
submitting, of sacrificing andserving the other.
Luke (44:12):
Mhmm.
Cameron (44:16):
What else would I say that the I don't know. I think
that's a really good question. Idon't know that I've ever really
thought about it too too much.
Luke (44:32):
Yeah.
Cameron (44:33):
But I think it's really it's a question that I should
think about more.
Luke (44:37):
I think the one for me, the like, one of the one of the
things is that, like, it notthis was something I discovered
in previous relationships priorto meeting my wife was I was
trying to figure out like somerelationship dynamics that were
happening in some of my datingrelationships. And I ran across,
because I remember my parentsreading the book and it being
(44:58):
talked about like that book,Love and Respect. Right. This
idea that men need respect,women need love. Mhmm.
And I read it, and I felt sodisoriented as I read it,
because I primarily identifiedwith what they considered to be
feminine needs. It's like, no,that's I actually feel like I I
(45:22):
lack and need more of what theyclassically say the woman wants
and needs out of a relationshipversus what the man wants. And
it was and it's specificallylike it's a Christian authors,
Christian ministry and book. Andand I've talked to other people
(45:43):
too who have also been like,yeah, sometimes it's like the
man feels like he needs respectand honor or whatever. Like,
it's a need, but it's notexclusive to the man or even
necessarily the predominant one.
Cameron (46:02):
Right. And so I think As a universal quality.
Luke (46:05):
As a universal quality. And so I was like, no, like
there's some sometimes that'sthe dynamic. Right. Because they
were kind of playing into this,like what felt like this
stereotypical, you know, thewife always wants closeness and
affection and the husband alwayswants respect. And I was like,
no, I don't think that that'snecessarily always true.
(46:26):
I don't think that's likesometimes that's maybe the
dynamic, but I kinda want both.Right.
Cameron (46:32):
You know? You know?
Luke (46:34):
And it's not really a prioritization of the other.
Cameron (46:37):
Yeah. And I'm I'm assuming my wife doesn't want me
to disrespect disrespect her.No. I'm sure she wants respect
as well. Right.
Luke (46:43):
Yeah. And then like other things about like, like the 5
love languages
Cameron (46:50):
as
Luke (46:50):
being like a, an oversimplified formula for,
like, affection Yep. And careOr, or like one that I was
really, you know, I was reallykind of passionate about when I
was single, was just that, like,you know, treating marriage as
this peak Christian maturitything. Like you're not gonna be
(47:14):
a mature Christian until you getmarried and kind of it's
overemphasis.
Cameron (47:17):
Or it is the goal of every Christian individual is to
get married.
Luke (47:21):
Is to get married. And so some of those are the things
that kind of like come to mymind in that, like where we kind
of take some of the stereotypesof the world and we kind of
sprinkle Christian fairy dust onthem.
Cameron (47:35):
Mhmm.
Luke (47:36):
And then we make them worse by, like, making them
sacrosanct.
Cameron (47:39):
Yeah. Yeah. So. I agree. As you were talking
before you said the 5 levellanguages, I come to my come to
my mind being like, man, Iremember I don't hear as much
about them anymore.
Luke (47:52):
Yeah. But
Cameron (47:53):
I remember when I was in, like, high school and
college, that was like the wayin which you determined who your
mate was going to be. Mhmm. Waswhat what of the 5 love
languages do they identify with?And, like, it became it, like,
(48:16):
almost became canonical in aChristian circle to understand
the 5 love languages clearly.Mhmm.
And it's not that they're wrong.It's not that they're bad. It's
just that it's a very myopicview of what it means to give
and receive love.
Luke (48:31):
Yeah.
Cameron (48:34):
And, you know, and what I found is, like, if I had to if
if someone were to ask me whatmy love language was when I was
first married or when I was incollege or something like that,
I would have had one answer. Ifit's like, what is it now, 20
years later, it'd be differentfor sure. Mhmm. Very different.
(48:55):
Yep.
And so I think those thosethings do even those thing types
of things can change
Luke (49:01):
Yeah.
Cameron (49:01):
Over time.
Luke (49:02):
Mhmm.
Cameron (49:03):
Yeah. You wanna say anything else today?
Luke (49:08):
No. I think that's I think we've given people enough to
think about. Okay.
Cameron (49:13):
Like I said, at the beginning of the podcast, we
have a marriage conferencecoming up in October. Love for
you to take part in it if you'reengaged or married. You have any
questions, perspectives aboutmarriage, like us maybe to talk
about in future episodes of thepodcast, we'd love to hear
those. Love to, love to, youknow, take a take a swing at
(49:39):
them. Yep.
So, if you're a member ofConduit or maybe if you're not a
member of Conduit, maybe watch,services online or anything like
that. We have a sermon seriescoming up in, I think, 3 weeks
from now Yep. Called Asking fora Friend, which is, basically a
sermon series that is made up ofyour questions that you have.
(50:00):
Whether that would be aboutfaith or a certain scripture or
something like that. So you canask them by texting them to our
line here, our podcast line,716-2010.
5. 507. 0507. And, we will addthose to the list, and those
(50:25):
that we don't get to on a Sundaymorning, we we may try to hit
here, may try to hit onWednesday evening bible study,
or we'll we'll see what we seewhat kind of questions we get.
And I'm not I'm not promisinganyone that we're gonna deal
with.
Luke (50:37):
All of your questions.
Cameron (50:38):
Any every question that everyone asks in some
environment. Yep. Not gonna dothat. Not not gonna make that
promise, but send us over somequestions. Let's see, let's see
what we can learn for some,sermons coming on.
Thanks for listening, and, we'llcatch you in the next one.
Welcome to The Uncut Podcast. I'm pastor Luke.
Cameron (00:09):
And I'm pastor Cameron.
Luke (00:10):
And this is The Uncut Podcast where we have honest,
uncut conversations about faith,life.
Cameron (00:17):
Ministry sponsored by Jocko again this week. Yep. I'm
gonna see Jocko
Luke (00:23):
Yeah.
Cameron (00:23):
In just a few months. So I'm gonna tell him that I
drink his energy drinks on mypodcast all the time, and he
should sponsor us.
Luke (00:33):
You're gonna tell him what the podcast is about?
Cameron (00:35):
I will. Yeah. Yep. Mhmm.
Luke (00:40):
Yeah. What is the podcast about today, Cameron?
Cameron (00:42):
Today, I thought we'd talk a little bit about
marriage.
Luke (00:45):
Yeah. Mhmm.
Cameron (00:48):
Been studying a lot about marriage lately. Been
thinking a lot about marriagelately. We have a marriage
conference coming up here atConduit. We do. The weekend of
October 19th.
Luke (01:01):
Mhmm.
Cameron (01:01):
19th 20th. It's gonna be a Friday evening and then an
all day Saturday.
Luke (01:08):
Yep. It's
Cameron (01:09):
gonna be I'm believing it to be a great, experience for
married and engaged couples aswell. Mhmm. So if that's
something that interests you,mark it on your calendar now,
and there'll be more detailscoming out, here as we get
closer to October. But, anyway,I'm also studying a lot about
(01:30):
marriage this week. Yeah.
Been thinking a lot aboutmarriage this year.
Luke (01:35):
Mhmm.
Cameron (01:36):
Both because of the marriage conference and because
this is, this year, Sherry and Ionly have been married 20 years
Wow. Which feels to me like amilestone.
Luke (01:52):
Yeah. I
Cameron (01:52):
don't like, I know, like sometimes it's like the 25
year anniversary and the 50 yearanniversary. Like my in laws
just had their 50 yearanniversary this weekend, this
weekend, this past weekend, sowe celebrated that with them.
But, I think what we learn aboutmarriage is also a lot about
(02:13):
what we learn about ourselves.Mhmm. And, so I thought, you
know, there's enough there'senough collective wisdom about
marriage that we can talk aboutit, I think, or at least talk
about perspectives.
And I think that what I reallylike is your perspective.
Luke (02:35):
Oh, yes.
Cameron (02:36):
Yeah. Because, you know, there is a, sometimes it's
difficult for people who havebeen married a while to remember
what it's been what it's like tobe married a short period of
(02:58):
time. And I would say you guyslike, your this will be your 2nd
anniversary coming up.
Luke (03:03):
Yep. Yep.
Cameron (03:04):
So 2 year anniversary this summer. And a
Luke (03:06):
half and some change. Yeah.
Cameron (03:07):
Yep. We're not this summer, but this fall. Yep. And
so I think to similar to what wedid when you came to work here
Luke (03:20):
Mhmm.
Cameron (03:20):
And we're like, I wanted to grab onto your newness
of being here Yes. Yeah. To tellus tell us the things about
Conduit and about the ministrythat we had become blind to
Luke (03:33):
Mhmm.
Cameron (03:35):
Because of our proximity to it. I think that
there's value also in askingyou, like, some of your
reflections on marriage in thefirst few years Yeah. For those
who, you know, are maybe hopingto get married or are engaged to
be married now or who are newlymarried and and, to just try and
(03:56):
get a sense of like, all right,how do we talk about marriage?
What are the things that wewanna talk about in marriage?
What are the things that areimportant?
And, thought we would just jumpoff
Luke (04:10):
Yeah.
Cameron (04:10):
Into the deep end.
Luke (04:11):
Let's do it.
Cameron (04:12):
Jump off into the deep end there. I also, you know,
like I it it's it, I do I'vedone a fair amount a fair bit,
of both premarital counselingand marriage counseling Mhmm.
(04:34):
Counseling for married couples.And kind of without fail, there
are a few issues that are theissues.
Luke (04:49):
Yep.
Cameron (04:51):
Really is. Mhmm. So if you had to guess, at least from
my experience in counseling withthese couples, is what would be
the issues that couples, marriedcouples, face that that that
(05:12):
motivate them to get an outsideperspective? Motivate them to
come and see me or come and seesomeone else who can help them
process through their theirthings?
Luke (05:22):
Money, like money differences, sex, expectations
around, like, roles inside ofside of the family, like and
like children, parenting,wouldn't have kids.
Cameron (05:42):
Mhmm. And
Luke (05:47):
yeah. Those would probably be like no. I'm honestly, I'm
just kind of going off the listof what, like, I know you talk
about in your primary counselingand also what I know is, like,
included in every premaritalcounseling, like Yeah. Book.
Yeah.
Those those are typically theones that, like, that people get
(06:12):
hung up on.
Cameron (06:13):
Mhmm.
Luke (06:14):
Because they're kind of they're big and everybody has
thoughts about them, but theymaybe don't realize they have
thoughts or opinions about them.
Cameron (06:21):
Yeah.
Luke (06:22):
And so, and the hard thing too is is that when you decide
to get engaged, you almostimmediately start making
financial decisions together,whether or not you've actually
talked through.
Cameron (06:36):
You have the same values about your resources.
Luke (06:38):
Exactly. And so you're immediately in this place of,
oh, well, we're going to get avenue and a photographer and
Cameron (06:44):
we're going to,
Luke (06:45):
or are we going to put a down payment on a house and
start making all these financialdecisions together. And you may
have not, you may have not been,you may have not talked through
how to integrate your financesmy money? Is it your my money?
(07:08):
Is it your money?
Cameron (07:09):
Like, all those questions. I think what I found
is that, like, While, like, thethe conversation about finances
is an important one Mhmm. Ithink it is even broader than
finances. I think it comes downto, how how do I say it? It's
(07:34):
like determining your like, thelifestyle that each individual
values.
Luke (07:42):
Mhmm.
Cameron (07:43):
Yep. You know, because generally, everyone has the
same, like, finances financequestions or questions about
finances. If you just talkabout, like, like, people are
gonna have the right answers forfinances. You can't spend more
than you make. You need to savefor retirement.
(08:05):
You Yeah. Should have a budgetand, you know, everything like
that. But what happens is that,like, I'm only, like, 50% a Dave
Ramsey subscriber. But, youknow, one of the things that he
says and I agree with is thatdealing with finances is like,
(08:30):
10% knowledge. Mhmm.
What to do. Yep. And 90%behavior. Yeah. The willingness
to do Mhmm.
What you need to do with whatyou know. Yeah. And so when it
comes to the conversation aroundfinances with couples, it's more
(08:52):
about like, okay. What type oflifestyle do each of you value?
Mhmm.
And that usually gets intoconversations around like
there's, you know Yep. Someone'sa spender or someone's a saver
Luke (09:10):
Yeah.
Cameron (09:10):
Or someone values this type of vacation or that type of
vacation or someone values thistype of home or that type of
home Yep. Or someone values
Luke (09:20):
The flexibility to make incidental purchases.
Cameron (09:23):
Right. Yep. Right. Or someone values, you know, one of
the one one of the partnersstaying at home
Luke (09:31):
Mhmm.
Cameron (09:31):
To raise a family or to take care or the other partner
both they both wanna work. Andlike, so it then becomes like a
what type of lifestyle ratherthan necessarily like how are
you gonna build a budgettogether. Mhmm. It's part of it.
Yep.
But the conversation is muchbigger. It has a lot more, I
(09:54):
guess, like, tributaries to itMhmm. Than just dollars and
cents.
Luke (09:59):
Yeah. It it certainly does.
Cameron (10:01):
Yeah. But I you know, you're you're right in a lot of
ways about the things that, Ifeel like are tend to be, tend
to be, categories that peoplewanna talk about or need to talk
about. The expectations, likeYeah. Is is a big one. Yeah.
(10:21):
You know, like, we carryexpectations into every
relationship that we have. Mhmm.I have expectations for you, and
you have expectations of me,both as friends and as
colleagues and all of that. And,you have expectations for your
wife, and she has expectationsof you. And and I've got them
for my wife and she has them forme.
And the question is not whetheror not we have expectations of
(10:43):
the other person in ourrelationship with them. It's
whether or not thoseexpectations are clear and have
been communicated. Yeah. And whywould you say it's important to
clearly communicate ourexpectations that we have in any
relationship with people?
Luke (11:00):
Well, I think it's because, like, that's on on on
what what's the quote? Unspokenexpectations are is a recipe for
disappointment or something likethat. Like or disappointment is
is just unspoken expectations.
Cameron (11:18):
Like,
Luke (11:20):
It's funny, I had a professor who would
occasionally, he was also apastor in the community, and so
he would occasionally dopremarital counseling for some
of the students and things likethat, which like he's not He's
more of a pre I've alwaysthought of him as more of a
preacher and less of a pastor orshepherd. But from someone who
(11:44):
went through his premaritalcounseling, I heard that, like,
one of the questions that he hewould kind of bring this up in
this kind of way of saying, sodo you just squeeze the
toothpaste or do you roll thetoothpaste tube? Okay. And and
his whole idea is just that,like, are you gonna share
(12:07):
toothpaste tubes? Are you guyshave gonna have your own
toothpaste?
Is it gonna bug you when youcome in and like your wife is
just kind of randomly squeezethe toothpaste tube and when you
prefer to roll it or whatever? Ithink it's somewhat ridiculous
that he goes down into that kindof granularity.
Cameron (12:23):
It definitely is. But there is some value in it.
Luke (12:28):
There's some value into it. And his point being is just
simply is that, like, what areyour expectations around
toothpaste?
Cameron (12:37):
Well, there's things that see the the the and here's
how I talk about it, is that weall kind of enter into marriage
with a a picture in my our mindof what it's gonna be like.
Yeah. How we're gonna livetogether, how we're gonna spend
our time, what our home is gonnabe like. Mhmm. All of that.
(12:58):
And we almost always create theidyllic image. Of course. Why
would why would we create thedisappointing image? So we
almost always create the idyllicimage and then if you don't have
someone that helps you expressthose expectations pre marriage,
you carry those in with you.
Luke (13:18):
Mhmm.
Cameron (13:20):
And then what happens? Well, she rolls the toothpaste
instead of squeezes it. And theidyllic image of what it meant
to live together in crumblingdown. Yeah. Holy matrimony comes
crumbling down.
The whole house of cards fallson the toothpaste.
Luke (13:37):
Yeah.
Cameron (13:38):
And yeah. And then you're left either having to say
something
Luke (13:43):
Mhmm.
Cameron (13:45):
Or you don't say anything because realize how
silly it is. But that doesn'teliminate that thing that's in
your heart, that expectationthat's in your heart. Mhmm. And
so unspoken expectations thatthen get broken Mhmm. By the
people we love Yep.
And then we don't communicateand compromise on our
(14:08):
expectations for the other Yep.End up becoming seeds of
resentment Yes. That lead toroots of bitterness. Yep. And so
when we have things that wedon't communicate as
expectations and then they getbroken Mhmm.
It creates gaps. Yeah. And thosegaps get filled with with
(14:32):
resentment and bitterness, whichis never the place that we want
our our, you know, those themost intimate of our
relationships to be.
Luke (14:40):
Yeah. Well, I heard it said that resentment if you
notice resentment in yourself,it's probably because they are
behaving in a way in which youdo not feel permission to behave
yourself. And I've found that tobe, it's not like that's not the
root of all resentment, but it'sa root of a lot of it. I think
(15:03):
particularly for couples, if oneof us has a value of, well, say,
we'll stick with the money one,for example, say we're not
allowed to make any purchasesabove $100 without, like, you
know, or as far as, like,preapproved purchases. Right?
Yeah. You know, non budgeted,You can make it a budget a non
budgeted expense as long as it'sunder $100 or something like
(15:25):
that. Anything above that, oh, Iwould never I would never
purchase something that's 150,200, $300 without first making
sure my wife is okay with it.But then if she were to, to to
not hold that rule orexpectation that's invisible
inside of my head, and then shegoes and does does that,
(15:45):
resentment could come out of it.And you'd be like, oh, so mad
that she bought that thing.
Cameron (15:51):
Mhmm.
Luke (15:51):
And you're angry. Why? Because she behaved in a way
that you felt you couldn't orshouldn't because of certain
value or conviction you held.And then you're in that place of
what do you do? Do youcommunicate it?
Do you just roll over it? Do younot say anything? Does it build
into bitterness over time? Yep.And that's that's where it is.
(16:15):
And it's because and this is oneof the things. This is not
wisdom from me. This I've heardthis from other places, I think.
But that, like, it's easy, Ithink, particularly in, like,
the quote unquote honeymoonstages to just be like, oh, it's
not a big deal. Right?
(16:37):
But you're just getting close toyour 20 year, I mean, a year and
a half. Is the thing that is nota big deal a year and a half in
going to be a how big of a dealis it gonna be 20 years in?
Cameron (16:51):
Yeah. It it it's it won't be the thing anymore.
Luke (16:55):
Mhmm.
Cameron (16:56):
But it will be the thing. It will be the seed that
created the root Mhmm. That grewthe tree that now is shading the
entire marriage. Right. Youknow?
And there's a 1,000 other thingsin the branches of that tree.
Luke (17:11):
Yep.
Cameron (17:12):
Now and it really is not even about that thing
anymore. No. It's about, itcomes down to probably the main
thing, the main thing ish themain thing ish with all all of
(17:32):
healthy marriages is the abilityto effectively and healthily
communicate. Yeah. So, so it itit becomes like if we can't
communicate how an expectationis not met in our heart and it
(17:53):
just sits there
Luke (17:54):
Mhmm.
Cameron (17:55):
Then there can never be any, like it can only turn into
resentment. Yeah. It can onlyturn into bitterness. But we
have to be willing to we have tobe willing to say something.
Mhmm.
And that that that talk has tohas to, at some point, be in a
(18:17):
healthy way because we cancommunicate and communicate very
aggressively Mhmm. Very,abusively, very, very poorly.
Very like we can communicate. Wecan communicate with our non
communication. Yeah.
You know? Right. The silenttreatment is communication. You
(18:38):
know? Yeah.
And so, you know, the the thingabout the the whole question
that I I started with is thatyou're right. All of those
issues do usually come up. It'susually I start really every
(19:01):
marriage counseling session andpremarital session with kind of
getting a sense of like, reallyit's more premarital than not,
but is to get a sense of 1, likewhat is a person's view on
marriage?
Luke (19:18):
Mhmm.
Cameron (19:19):
Like, what what are the things that they are carrying
into this relationship?
Luke (19:24):
Yep.
Cameron (19:27):
That is that will inform their perspective on
marriage. Yep. And that'susually like a tell me the
marriages that you saw growingup. Yeah. Your parents felt and
how you and and how you feltabout them.
Yeah. How they affected you,both negative and positive.
Because not everyone has justnegative views of marriage. Some
(19:51):
people have super, superpositive
Luke (19:54):
Yeah.
Cameron (19:54):
Examples of marriage in their life, and they wanna take
those examples and carry thelessons that they've learned
into their own marriage. Andsome people are, like, the
complete opposite, and mostpeople are a little bit of both.
Not everyone's marriage noteveryone's parents' marriages is
the marriage that they talkabout. Sometimes it's their
grandparents. Sometimes it'stheir friends or nate and uncle
(20:15):
or an older sibling or whatever.
But what's your like, what kindof stuff are you bringing into
your perspective on marriage?Like, okay, so let's now to get
separately as 2 individualpeople, let's create let's
create some let's describe writeit writing it down. Let's
(20:39):
describe our view of an idyllicmarriage. Mhmm. The marriage
that we want to create, themarriage that's in our head, the
marriage that we've dreamed of,the marriage of, you know, like,
that we've always wanted,avoiding the things that we saw
growing up that we don't want,adding in the things that we do
want.
Mhmm. Right? And let's do itaround these general categories.
(21:02):
Yep. Let's do it aroundhousehold responsibilities and
kind of like how we're gonna dolife together.
The practicalities. Mhmm. Let'sdo it around life lifestyle and
value, like this value of ourlifestyle and finances and that
kind of stuff. Let's describehow we're gonna think about our
sexual relationship, thefrequency, what is allowed,
(21:25):
what's not allowed,
Luke (21:27):
who
Cameron (21:27):
we're gonna talk to about it, who we're not gonna
talk to about it, you know, allof those things, family of
origin type of things. How arewe each gonna interact with our
families now that we're married?Yeah. Right. And how we're as
individuals, how are we gonna,like, interact with our families
once we're married?
Luke (21:45):
Right. We're gonna allow the the, like, the classic
mother-in-law dynamics to playout? Are we Right. Whose family
are we going to for Thanksgivingand Christmas? Like, all of
those things.
Cameron (21:58):
Yep. Mhmm. Which ends up being you usually a pretty
big one for people.
Luke (22:04):
Yeah.
Cameron (22:07):
And then, what was the last one? Oh, obviously, like
like faith, spirituality.
Luke (22:14):
Mhmm.
Cameron (22:14):
Like, how are we gonna live together in, you know,
integrating our Right.Individual walks with Jesus. And
so okay. Then now make a listof, as far as those categories
are concerned, all of theidyllic things that you can
imagine about what your marriageis gonna be. Mhmm.
Don't share them with eachother. So you make them
(22:35):
separately. Mhmm. Next session,we're gonna come in together,
and I want to watch the dynamicof you communicating your heart
to the other. Mhmm.
So you watch them communicateit. Alright? And then you give
the other person the opportunityto respond to
Luke (22:54):
Mhmm.
Cameron (22:55):
What has been said.
Luke (22:57):
Right.
Cameron (22:57):
And so the whole of the exercise is 1, is the ability to
articulate what I want, theability of the other to hear
what I've said, to interpret itin to interpret it inside their
own head and say it back, so tointeract with it. Because
(23:20):
sometimes, the expectations thatone person has of a marriage is
are unrealistic. Right. Noteverything that's idyllic is
reality.
Luke (23:30):
Right.
Cameron (23:32):
Kind of a classic example would be someone who's
like who write writes on theexpectation. I have an
expectation that we are gonnahave sex 7 times a week Right.
While we're married.
Luke (23:42):
Unrealistic for most people.
Cameron (23:45):
For most people. Right? Unless both people are saying,
like, that's the reality. That'swhat we will like That's what
you want. Oh, okay.
Good for you. Right. But it'sprobably it's probably
unrealistic.
Luke (23:57):
It's on the it's on one side of the bell curve.
Cameron (23:59):
Correct.
Luke (23:59):
Right? It's not the it's not the average.
Cameron (24:01):
Right. So what do we do now as the person who didn't
write that, who thinks, oh mygosh, I can't do like I can't
live up to that expectation.
Luke (24:09):
Right.
Cameron (24:09):
What do we do? Do we hold those thoughts in our in
our heart in fear?
Luke (24:15):
Or do we
Cameron (24:15):
or do we, or do we say, I think that's an unrealistic
expectation. Can we find somekind of compromise? Mhmm. Right.
And it's in those moments wherewe learn to speak and we find
the we we we work together tofind the compromise or I learn
why the other person feels like7 days a week is important to
(24:37):
them.
Luke (24:37):
Right.
Cameron (24:38):
So so now I become I get to become curious about why
would they say why would that besome tell me why that's
important to you. Right. Andthat whole conversation brings
just like a flood ofinformation.
Luke (24:54):
Yeah. Well, that's the thing is that it's it's rarely,
like you said, it's rarely thething. Mhmm. Right? Like, if
it's I feel like like sex is abig one, and sex is always
something other than just sex,usually.
(25:16):
There's usually layers to it.Right? It's not just about the
thing itself. There's emotionalcomponents to
Cameron (25:24):
our sexuality that some of us are aware of.
Luke (25:24):
Some of us are sexuality that some of us are aware of,
some of us are completelyoblivious to, but they're
they're there. Mhmm. And theyimpact the thoughts we have
about that. And the same goes tojust about everything. Right?
There's these values and thesedesires or needs, or there's a
story. Like, well, myexpectation is that, I don't
(25:50):
know, dinner's on the tableevery single night. Mhmm. But my
expectation is also that I willbe home every night for dinner.
Cameron (25:57):
Exactly.
Luke (25:57):
Right. Well, what's the story behind that?
Cameron (25:59):
Right.
Luke (26:00):
Well, my dad never came home and he wasn't home every
night. Right. And like and mymom, you know, was, you know,
whatever. Like, there's somesort of story behind that as to
why that's formulated as anexpectation. It's got to do with
family of origin or a familythey saw, and they're like, my
family wasn't like that, but Isaw a family like that, and I
(26:22):
saw how connected they were.
And so now I've I've tied thatto the husband comes home every
day, and they have mealtogether, the wife is cooked.
And that's I want not just that,I want what that results in in
my mind as well. And so when youget to that, you're like, oh,
well, we can achieve that anumber of different ways. And it
(26:44):
doesn't have to be that I cook ameal for us every single night.
Cameron (26:47):
Yep.
Luke (26:48):
And all of a sudden, the field of play is open much wider
than it was before.
Cameron (26:53):
Correct. Correct. It's almost never the thing that's
the thing.
Luke (26:58):
Right.
Cameron (26:58):
There's something behind it. And sometimes it's a
big thing. Sometimes it's arelatively small thing.
Luke (27:03):
Yep.
Cameron (27:03):
But the goal there is not even really necessarily to,
like, get all of theexpectations out in the open
right then and there. The goalis to help them see how to
communicate regularly.
Luke (27:21):
Mhmm.
Cameron (27:22):
How to do that.
Luke (27:23):
So I'll share this one because this, I shared this in a
sermon. So this one's alreadybeen been, it's
Cameron (27:29):
already been. It's already out on the internet.
Luke (27:31):
It's already out on the internet. But, like, this is
just it's a super silly example.But, you know, we've got, like,
mats in the bathroom. Right?And, like, I like, there's this
mat between our toilet kind offaces the faces the the the
shower and there's this squaremat and I'm like, well, that mat
(27:53):
is for when you get out of theshower and you're drying off.
And so it needs to be close tothe shower so that when you get
up and every time I'd go intothe bathroom, I kinda noticed
that, oh, it kind of scoochedover closer to the toilet. And
so I'd kinda scooch it back.Well, that went on for about
over a year. And then finally mywife said, Luke, are we gonna
talk about the fact that youkeep moving the stupid mat in
(28:15):
the bathroom? And I was like,what are you talking about?
You keep moving.
Cameron (28:21):
And then
Luke (28:21):
she was just like, and I had no I had no idea that there
was this, like, silent warbetween us over where this map
belonged to the bathroom. Andshe was like, I thought you just
weren't saying anything. I waslike, I didn't know I wasn't or
I didn't know that you weren't.Mhmm. We were just like
Cameron (28:38):
Yeah.
Luke (28:38):
And so it was immediately humorous because we were both
just like, oh. So now it'sequidistant.
Cameron (28:49):
See the big one.
Luke (28:50):
Just need a big one or yeah. But anyways, like, you
just gotta you gotta talk aboutit though. Yeah. And how and
have a way to talk about itbecause Right.
Cameron (29:02):
Because you make a sum when you when you don't talk, do
you make assumptions about whatthe other person is
Luke (29:07):
Right.
Cameron (29:08):
Their their their motivations, their decisions.
Luke (29:11):
Right.
Cameron (29:12):
And we almost never it's very rare that we make
assumptions in the bestdirection. No. We almost always
make assumptions in the worst.We create a negative narrative
in our mind when we makeassumptions, not a positive one.
Right.
Luke (29:28):
We become mind readers.
Cameron (29:29):
Right.
Luke (29:30):
But we're really bad at it
Cameron (29:32):
because we actually can't read people's minds.
Correct. So the act ofcommunication just actually it
it removes assumption from theequation and allows us to
actually engage with reality,which is usually a lot more
gentle and benign Right. Than weoriginally thought it was.
Luke (29:51):
Yep. So Yeah. Because I just thought the mat kept
moving.
Cameron (29:59):
Yeah. I mean, I've shared a similar story, from our
1st year of marriage about how,you know, one of Sherry's kind
of unspoken, expectations of me.And it was like, I remember as
being like our first kind offight Mhmm. As a married couple.
(30:19):
We don't really fight.
We don't fight. Our firstdisagreement as a married couple
was kind of the unspokenexpectation that I would take
the garbage out when it was fullYep. Without being asked.
Luke (30:34):
We had the same we had the same thing.
Cameron (30:36):
Yeah. Without being asked.
Luke (30:37):
Yep.
Cameron (30:37):
I would just notice that it was full and take it out
without being asked. Mhmm. Ihave no problem taking the
garbage out. I like, totallyfine with me. I don't, like, not
an issue at all.
Yep. My issue with what was justlike a, you know, like, okay.
Well, if you want me to take thegarbage out and I haven't yet,
(31:02):
all you need to do is say, couldyou please take the garbage out?
Mhmm. But she wanted me to takeit out before it was before she
had to ask.
Luke (31:10):
Mhmm.
Cameron (31:11):
She wanted me to notice. Yep. I think what it
comes down to is, like, whatwhat is what is the implicit
expectation underneath all ofthat
Luke (31:19):
Yeah.
Cameron (31:19):
Is that she wanted me to have, like, some perceptive
intentionality Mhmm. About whatneeded done in the house, the
household chores
Luke (31:29):
Mhmm.
Cameron (31:29):
The things that needed done for cleaning and
maintenance and upkeep and stufflike that. And to take an active
role in taking care of thosethings, without being because
what she because her ultimately,her heart behind that is that
(31:52):
she has always wanted tomaintain a lot of distance from
being a, what she calls, anagging wife. Mhmm.
Luke (32:03):
And
Cameron (32:03):
she didn't wanna feel like she was nagging by saying
by, like, having to tell meYeah. An adult, you know, to
take the garbage out.
Luke (32:14):
Mhmm.
Cameron (32:16):
So all of that kind of gets unraveled now by the
conversation Yeah. Of just like,hey, here's what I expected you
to do. Yep. And so, yeah, we hada little a little tiff about it.
But, you know, all in all, ourfirst, man, our first couple
(32:38):
years of marriage were just sogreat.
I mean, I'm I'm serious. Theyjust they were. I feel really
grateful for that because lifewas I don't know. I look back on
it and I'm like, I know we werereally, really stressed. Mhmm.
(33:01):
And I know that we had felt likewe had a lot on our plate. Mhmm.
And we had a lot of it was hardfinancially. I was in seminary.
Mhmm.
She was
Luke (33:13):
making minimum wage
Cameron (33:13):
as a veterinary technician. I was working small
little apartment above a garage.Small little apartment above a
garage, and, you know, wescraped by financially. We ate
(33:34):
so much spaghetti and hamburgerhelper, you know, that 1st year,
You know, regular dinners overat the in laws so that we didn't
have to buy groceries. It wasjust hard.
It was just really hard, but itwas also really just a simple a
(33:56):
simple life. Yeah. You know, nokids. No really like, no what I
would call like jobs ofsignificant consequence. Like we
both had jobs and they wereimportant and we did like did a
good job, but like like, nowSherry's job is as a mom, that's
(34:18):
pretty significant.
Mhmm. And obviously, I'm apastor. I feel like that's
pretty significant too. Yep. Andso life is just much, much, much
more complicated now.
And I look back on it and I'mlike, wow. The simplicity of
what we had then was sobeautiful and I can't say that I
(34:42):
would go back and, like, nothave what we have now, but it's
just like life changes soquickly and perspective change
so quickly. Mhmm. And what'simportant changes so quickly,
and what you think is importantone day, in the next won't be.
(35:04):
And there's just a beauty indoing life like that together
with someone else.
Yeah. And, so I'm reallygrateful for it. But I do
remember, I think it was we justit was hard back then.
Luke (35:21):
Yeah.
Cameron (35:22):
But not in comparison to what we are doing now.
Luke (35:25):
Mhmm.
Cameron (35:26):
But it's like, I think every stage
Luke (35:29):
Presents its own Challenges. Challenges.
Cameron (35:32):
Right.
Luke (35:32):
And, like yeah. And, you know, each generation has their
own, like, I feel like likestereotypes and patterns to kind
of like overcome.
Cameron (35:45):
Yep.
Luke (35:46):
Right? Like, I you know, I was talk actually, it was
interesting. I was talking withone of my brothers the other
day, and he pointed out, andit's something I also have
pretty low tolerance for is,like, the kind of what do you
(36:06):
call it? Like, the like, raggingon one's spouse. Mhmm.
Like, behind their back and kindof like a, old, the old ball and
chain. Like, woah. Like, she'sjust, you know, whatever. He was
just like, yeah. I've got, like,0 tolerance
Cameron (36:22):
for it.
Luke (36:22):
I was like, yeah. Me too. Like, you yep. Like, wanna get
me kind of frustrated and angry?Like Mhmm.
Start talking like that, Andlike, you'll find our
conversation stops pretty quickbecause Yeah. It's not gonna
tolerate it. And I think that'smaybe like an older generation,
generations above me. That'skind of a pattern. But like the
(36:43):
younger generation, mygeneration's got like more, you
know, has kind of different,like, different unhealthy, like,
stereotypes that kind of getmade fun of.
Right? They always show up incomedy, but they, but they're
but they can be true. Right. Thecaricatures. The caricature.
Cameron (37:06):
So there's truth. There is truth there, but the truth
gets magnified to becomenegative. Right? Yeah. Yeah.
Luke (37:12):
There was this there was this real that was going around,
and it was essentially it waslike the wife was like the
husband's like, oh, I'm marriedto my wife. And like, and that
means and then, and then shewould interrupt him and she
would like. So essentially,anytime the husband would go to
say something in this, like,joke, we'd kind of interrupt
(37:35):
him, and the wife's opinion kindof ruled. And you could it was
really interesting to see allthe comments because some people
were like, that's so true.That's exactly how me and my
husband are.
And then other people like, thisis exactly how me and my wife
are, and it's killing me. Right.Like like, it's this, like, oh,
this is, like, just how it is.Like, and it's just kinda funny,
(37:57):
but then, oh, no, that's notactually helpful. Like, just
because it's the reverse ofwhat's maybe happened
traditionally or historically,doesn't mean it's good either.
Cameron (38:08):
Right. Right. You know, I I agree. I think that there's
a there's there's cultural waysthat people perceive or
characterize the husband and howthey characterize the wife,
culture, pop culture, orwhatever. And there's, like,
obviously, there's examples onthe spectrum of those being
(38:29):
true.
It's like the you see it as,like, the knucklehead husband
who who's dumb and stupid.
Luke (38:34):
Homer Simpson.
Cameron (38:34):
Yeah. Can't get anything right.
Luke (38:36):
King of the hell. Yeah.
Cameron (38:37):
And then you see on the other side, it's the nagging
wife. She's always, like, on herhusband's case and like
Luke (38:43):
Everybody loves Raymond.
Cameron (38:44):
Yes. Right.
Luke (38:45):
Yep.
Cameron (38:47):
And I think I that's not honoring Mhmm. To, it's just
an unhonoring position to be into kind of abide by or uphold
(39:08):
those characterizations as beingtrue.
Luke (39:14):
Yeah.
Cameron (39:16):
Outside of your willingness to, if they exist in
your life or in your marriage,to communicate them to your
spouse so that you can work
Luke (39:30):
Yeah.
Cameron (39:30):
Through it. You know? Mhmm. Because our guy can guys
be boneheads, Homer Simpson? Ofcourse, they can.
Luke (39:38):
Sure.
Cameron (39:38):
Can wives be nagging and everyone loves Raymond wife?
Like, yes. Of course, they can.But we can we all have the
capacity and the the tendency todo those things and to be like
that. But, you know, tellingeveryone that my wife is nagging
(39:58):
or telling everyone that myhusband is an idiot is not gonna
solve the problem.
No. It's just gonna make it muchit's actually just gonna make it
worse.
Luke (40:06):
Right. Because then we create a narrative for the other
person to continue to live in.
Cameron (40:11):
Right. And it's just it's it's just dishonoring
Luke (40:13):
Mhmm.
Cameron (40:14):
As well. It doesn't honor the person as your
partner. Yeah. You know, as likePaul says in Ephesians chapter 5
that, like, you, husbands loveyour wives like you love your
own bodies. You know, like theyare part of you.
You are part of them. Like,cannot be separated from one
(40:35):
another. That the the 2 shallbecome 1 flesh. Mhmm. So
anything that you wouldn't wantto be said about you or you
wouldn't say about yourself.
Right? Right. Be careful abouthow we say that about our
spouses. Yeah. So I could reallytalk about marriage a lot.
(41:01):
I feel like all day.
Luke (41:03):
Mhmm. I was gonna kinda ask you. I was like, do you feel
like we kinda talked about somecultural stereotypes. Do you
feel like Christian stereotypes?Like, do you feel like there are
ways in which Christians havetalked about or portrayed or
simplified marriage in acharacterized way that's
unhelpful?
Cameron (41:24):
Yes. I think that there has been an overemphasis on in
the Christian culture, anoveremphasis on wives submitting
(41:45):
to husbands and an underemphasison submitting to one another out
of reverence for the Lord. Mhmm.Just and and the the issue I
think is that the Bible doestalk clearly about wives
submitting to husbands and thatour culture has an understanding
(42:10):
of what submission means.
Luke (42:11):
Right.
Cameron (42:13):
And our general understanding of what that means
is less than. Yep. Not asimportant as unworthy of. Yeah.
That's not a biblicalunderstanding of submission,
which is more about, a a willfulposition that a person takes.
(42:34):
It was a really came out of amilitary term. It was a like a
willful volunteerism, so tospeak, of the position that one
took in relationship to to oneanother Mhmm. In relationship to
another. But it's been used in away to denote worth Mhmm. Rather
(42:55):
than role.
Yeah. So I think that's acharacterization that or that's
a, like, a a it well, I I havemaybe I should finish all those
thoughts is, like and so it cansometimes come, it can sometimes
sometimes come to the pointwhere Christian husbands don't
(43:19):
believe that they have to listento their wives or shouldn't
listen to there's not wisdom inlistening to their wives that
there's not any place for themto
Luke (43:30):
because then they they just say, well, you're not
submitting to me by not justletting me make the decision I
want.
Cameron (43:35):
Correct. Right. Right. They're not they're they're
misunderstanding, which is atheir their misunderstanding how
their submission to Christ
Luke (43:51):
Mhmm.
Cameron (43:52):
Affects how they show up in their marriage. Mhmm. And
so I think that's one is thewhole idea of mutually
submitting, of sacrificing andserving the other.
Luke (44:12):
Mhmm.
Cameron (44:16):
What else would I say that the I don't know. I think
that's a really good question. Idon't know that I've ever really
thought about it too too much.
Luke (44:32):
Yeah.
Cameron (44:33):
But I think it's really it's a question that I should
think about more.
Luke (44:37):
I think the one for me, the like, one of the one of the
things is that, like, it notthis was something I discovered
in previous relationships priorto meeting my wife was I was
trying to figure out like somerelationship dynamics that were
happening in some of my datingrelationships. And I ran across,
because I remember my parentsreading the book and it being
(44:58):
talked about like that book,Love and Respect. Right. This
idea that men need respect,women need love. Mhmm.
And I read it, and I felt sodisoriented as I read it,
because I primarily identifiedwith what they considered to be
feminine needs. It's like, no,that's I actually feel like I I
(45:22):
lack and need more of what theyclassically say the woman wants
and needs out of a relationshipversus what the man wants. And
it was and it's specificallylike it's a Christian authors,
Christian ministry and book. Andand I've talked to other people
(45:43):
too who have also been like,yeah, sometimes it's like the
man feels like he needs respectand honor or whatever. Like,
it's a need, but it's notexclusive to the man or even
necessarily the predominant one.
Cameron (46:02):
Right. And so I think As a universal quality.
Luke (46:05):
As a universal quality. And so I was like, no, like
there's some sometimes that'sthe dynamic. Right. Because they
were kind of playing into this,like what felt like this
stereotypical, you know, thewife always wants closeness and
affection and the husband alwayswants respect. And I was like,
no, I don't think that that'snecessarily always true.
(46:26):
I don't think that's likesometimes that's maybe the
dynamic, but I kinda want both.Right.
Cameron (46:32):
You know? You know?
Luke (46:34):
And it's not really a prioritization of the other.
Cameron (46:37):
Yeah. And I'm I'm assuming my wife doesn't want me
to disrespect disrespect her.No. I'm sure she wants respect
as well. Right.
Luke (46:43):
Yeah. And then like other things about like, like the 5
love languages
Cameron (46:50):
as
Luke (46:50):
being like a, an oversimplified formula for,
like, affection Yep. And careOr, or like one that I was
really, you know, I was reallykind of passionate about when I
was single, was just that, like,you know, treating marriage as
this peak Christian maturitything. Like you're not gonna be
(47:14):
a mature Christian until you getmarried and kind of it's
overemphasis.
Cameron (47:17):
Or it is the goal of every Christian individual is to
get married.
Luke (47:21):
Is to get married. And so some of those are the things
that kind of like come to mymind in that, like where we kind
of take some of the stereotypesof the world and we kind of
sprinkle Christian fairy dust onthem.
Cameron (47:35):
Mhmm.
Luke (47:36):
And then we make them worse by, like, making them
sacrosanct.
Cameron (47:39):
Yeah. Yeah. So. I agree. As you were talking
before you said the 5 levellanguages, I come to my come to
my mind being like, man, Iremember I don't hear as much
about them anymore.
Luke (47:52):
Yeah. But
Cameron (47:53):
I remember when I was in, like, high school and
college, that was like the wayin which you determined who your
mate was going to be. Mhmm. Waswhat what of the 5 love
languages do they identify with?And, like, it became it, like,
(48:16):
almost became canonical in aChristian circle to understand
the 5 love languages clearly.Mhmm.
And it's not that they're wrong.It's not that they're bad. It's
just that it's a very myopicview of what it means to give
and receive love.
Luke (48:31):
Yeah.
Cameron (48:34):
And, you know, and what I found is, like, if I had to if
if someone were to ask me whatmy love language was when I was
first married or when I was incollege or something like that,
I would have had one answer. Ifit's like, what is it now, 20
years later, it'd be differentfor sure. Mhmm. Very different.
(48:55):
Yep.
And so I think those thosethings do even those thing types
of things can change
Luke (49:01):
Yeah.
Cameron (49:01):
Over time.
Luke (49:02):
Mhmm.
Cameron (49:03):
Yeah. You wanna say anything else today?
Luke (49:08):
No. I think that's I think we've given people enough to
think about. Okay.
Cameron (49:13):
Like I said, at the beginning of the podcast, we
have a marriage conferencecoming up in October. Love for
you to take part in it if you'reengaged or married. You have any
questions, perspectives aboutmarriage, like us maybe to talk
about in future episodes of thepodcast, we'd love to hear
those. Love to, love to, youknow, take a take a swing at
(49:39):
them. Yep.
So, if you're a member ofConduit or maybe if you're not a
member of Conduit, maybe watch,services online or anything like
that. We have a sermon seriescoming up in, I think, 3 weeks
from now Yep. Called Asking fora Friend, which is, basically a
sermon series that is made up ofyour questions that you have.
(50:00):
Whether that would be aboutfaith or a certain scripture or
something like that. So you canask them by texting them to our
line here, our podcast line,716-2010.
5. 507. 0507. And, we will addthose to the list, and those
(50:25):
that we don't get to on a Sundaymorning, we we may try to hit
here, may try to hit onWednesday evening bible study,
or we'll we'll see what we seewhat kind of questions we get.
And I'm not I'm not promisinganyone that we're gonna deal
with.
Luke (50:37):
All of your questions.
Cameron (50:38):
Any every question that everyone asks in some
environment. Yep. Not gonna dothat. Not not gonna make that
promise, but send us over somequestions. Let's see, let's see
what we can learn for some,sermons coming on.
Thanks for listening, and, we'llcatch you in the next one.
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