July 16, 2024 • 49 mins
In this episode of the Uncut Podcast, Pastor Luke and Cameron discuss their sermon series on faith and politics, highlighting the challenges of polarization and the need for nuanced dialogue. They emphasize the importance of consistency in ethical beliefs and the influence of biblical teachings on political engagement. The hosts preview upcoming sermons on the kingdom of heaven and Christian participation in politics, encouraging listener engagement and support for the podcast.
- (00:05) - Introduction
- (01:30) - Sermon Series Planning
- (04:37) - Encouraging Engagement with Politics
- (11:58) - Complexity of Political Beliefs
- (20:22) - Pro-Life Stance
- (22:58) - Consistent Ethic of Life
- (31:38) - Justifiable Defense
- (37:30) - Reflection on Series
- (41:10) - Preaching Preferences
- (43:28) - Importance of Jesus' Kingdom
- (47:05) - Engaging in Political Landscape
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Luke (00:05):
Welcome to the uncut honest uncut conversations about
faith, life, and ministry.Cameron and I are sitting down
on this Gloomy. Gloomy. It isnow gloomy Monday afternoon, and
(00:26):
we decided to hit record. Not a100% sure what we're gonna talk
about.
We have some ideas. But we do.Cam says he's got a question. So
Cameron (00:35):
Well, my question was kind of around one of our ideas,
which was, so we've preachedquite a few different types of
sermons in the last couple ofweeks.
Luke (00:46):
We have. Couple of weeks ago on the podcast, we were
talking about the series we werefinishing up. We just finished
the asking for a friend where wekinda sourced some questions,
did some topical sermons on it.And then yesterday, you started,
a political sermon series. Well,I don't know if that's the
correct way to say it.
It's a sermon series on theintegration or intersection of
(01:10):
faith and politics. It'd be theright way of saying that.
Cameron (01:14):
Right. So. Not intentionally planned for the
day after there was anassassination attempt. No.
Because former president Trump.
Luke (01:23):
Right. We we made that we planned that sermon series back
in October last
Cameron (01:28):
year. Correct. So Yeah. So it just happened so happened
to be Yeah. On the the day afterthere was an attempted
assassination.
Luke (01:39):
Right. We did plan it in the middle of election season,
though.
Cameron (01:42):
We did. Yes. We felt like potential. Yes. We felt
like, as has been the case inyears previous, that around this
time of year in an electioncycle Yeah.
A few months before, anelection, at least in the major
election, not midterms, but themajor election, the presidential
(02:05):
election, that people are thereare a number of things. One,
they're just, like, weary Yeah.Of the consistent polarization.
The words I used yesterday,polarization, demonization Mhmm.
And that they there's so there'sa weariness, but there's also,
(02:30):
like, a felt anxiety
Luke (02:34):
Mhmm.
Cameron (02:34):
In most people's hearts and minds about the rhetoric
that just, like, continuescontinues to go and how toxic it
is Yeah. On both sides, everyside of the spectrum. I see most
I don't watch mainstream media.I don't I don't watch I don't
have I don't sit down and watchthe news every night. I read our
(02:56):
local paper.
So I, like, I don't I I I peruseonce in the morning Mhmm. Google
News Feed on my phone. But Ilike, I'm not, like, sitting it
down and watching CNN all day orsitting down and watching Fox
News all day.
Luke (03:15):
I'm same way. I get I get one email a day that has the top
headlines Mhmm. And a brief,mostly, like, uncharged
description of the headline newsarticle of the primary
information Mhmm. And a link toa news article about that. Yeah.
90% of the time, I never clickon that news article. I just
(03:37):
read the headlines.
Cameron (03:38):
Yeah.
Luke (03:38):
And then I go on on about my day.
Cameron (03:39):
Right. So a lot of what people see, is how people are
responding to what's happeningon things like Facebook and
Instagram and Right. Twitter and
Luke (03:52):
all those You mean
Cameron (03:52):
x, Cameron? X. Yes. And, man, I mean, if you want to
if you wanna see just the armpitof humanity, Go watch a
political politically chargedback and forth on social media.
(04:16):
It is just so bad.
Yeah. So, so, so bad. So,anyway, to have a series like
this, I wanted to try andencourage our church exhort our
(04:39):
church, and in some cases,admonish the church
Luke (04:44):
Mhmm.
Cameron (04:44):
To, engage in a different type of narrative
Yeah. And a different type ofinteraction with this political
and election season in life. Sothat was really the point of the
(05:05):
series. And to do so far enoughahead of the election itself
Luke (05:12):
Mhmm. So
Cameron (05:12):
that you feel like if you choose to vote, you feel
like you're going into thatdecision, not super charged up
emotionally by what you hear andsee around you.
Luke (05:29):
Right.
Cameron (05:29):
But with, like, a fairly level, God honoring
perspective. Yep. So that's whywe're doing it now. Feel like it
it it the the world begs for it.Church begs for it.
(05:51):
And, you know, there's never II'm never really sure, well, I'm
never really sure how manysermons any sermon is going to,
like, land in people's lives.I've had sermons where I
thought, well, this is this ispretty good.
Luke (06:04):
Mhmm.
Cameron (06:05):
And then, like, seemingly flop or go over Yeah.
Or, like, whatever. Then I'vehad sermons where, like, I'm
like, ah, I just not feel goodabout this content. Don't know
about it. Yeah.
Luke (06:18):
And have
Cameron (06:18):
a person come up to me and say that that was the best
sermon that they've ever heardon a topic or they feel really
moved or challenged or whatever.I don't know. Yep. So, yeah, I,
the the church world, just likeany other portion of the world,
(06:41):
seems to hold pretty tightly totheir political beliefs. Mhmm.
Like I said yesterday in thesermon, I don't know a single
person who thinks that theirfaith and their political,
positions are in conflict withone another. Yeah. No. I don't I
(07:05):
I, like, I don't know a singleChristian who would say, yeah. I
know that's not what Jesus woulddo, but that's what I that's
just what I believe.
Luke (07:12):
Right. No one, people don't typically walk around
thinking that they are a bag ofconflictions.
Cameron (07:20):
Right. No, they don't. We all think we're.
Luke (07:23):
Very cohesive.
Cameron (07:24):
Yes.
Luke (07:24):
I've got this all figured out. I'm very consistent.
Cameron (07:27):
We're consistent. Yeah.
Luke (07:28):
That's what we think.
Cameron (07:29):
Generally what people think. Yeah. And so to I think
that's part of the problembecause it's really it becomes
it becomes very easy when weconflate our political positions
(07:52):
with truth Yep. Ultimate truth.Like truth is rooted in God type
of truth Mhmm.
Then anyone that doesn't holdthat position is now against
God, and therefore evil. Mhmm.And it becomes very evil or very
(08:16):
easy to vilify them, not just ona political spectrum, but to,
like, break unity, Christianunity with them or fellowship
with them.
Luke (08:29):
Right.
Cameron (08:30):
Because you are sinning. Right. If you do not
hold this position because it'sobviously the most faithful
Christian position that you canhold.
Luke (08:40):
Yeah. So to, like, put this to put even, like, a finer
point of it, like, we have thecore beliefs. Christ is Lord.
God is Trinity. Mhmm.
We're His church. Mhmm. We're tospread the gospel. Mhmm. And
like the Bible is his word.
And then slowly along insidethat truth becomes adjacent
(09:06):
these other truths or believedtruths of my can this candidate
is right, this policy iscorrect. Mhmm. And suddenly,
there seems to be very littledistinction. They seem to be
almost either synonymous or, youwere using the word enmeshed,
but not necessarily related tobeliefs, related to our own
(09:32):
merging with our beliefs, whichis its own topic. But these
beliefs become so synonymousthat when someone says, well,
your candidate is not the bestcandidate.
It feels like they're attacking
Cameron (09:46):
the Trinity. You are not the best person, right?
Luke (09:49):
Yeah. Or you're not the best person. You become enmeshed
with your beliefs.
Cameron (09:52):
Yeah. Or your candidate. Yeah. Or you're so
you're so incredibly codependentupon their success. Yes.
For your own value. Right. Yeah.I, you know, I'm I'm one of the
things that I said yesterday wasthat, that I wouldn't be
(10:15):
preaching my own politicalideology, and I'm I won't do
that. And that there that no oneshould walk away from that
series feeling like, oh, Conduitobviously holds this political
position.
Right. You know? But I am kindof wrestling with the question
(10:42):
of whether or not there arepolitical even as I'm stating
the question, are there currenthot button political issues that
(11:07):
we can and do and should havevery strong beliefs in and that
we can, in, like, kinda like 1unified voice Say something. As
the church say, this is whatGod's word says about this.
Yeah.
And does it then cease to be apolitical belief and it's really
(11:32):
just a theological one? It's notlike a we're not making a
political statement. It maybe isfinding its context in the
political Right. In thepolitical world, but this is not
political. This is theological.
Luke (11:48):
I think that's the way it used to feel at some point, But
things have kind of gotten somessy that it's hard to feel
that way, at least when it comesto candidates and things like
that. Like, I remember being akid and it being like, oh, well,
(12:11):
this is the Christian candidateYeah. Quote unquote.
Cameron (12:15):
Yeah.
Luke (12:16):
You know? Now whether or not they actually ever were was
is, you know, for the historiansto debate. Whereas, like, now,
like, one, Christianity's takena backseat. It's no longer like
someone can be the quote unquoteChristian approved candidate and
(12:39):
be very a religious. Mhmm.
And it seems to not have mademuch of a difference. Mhmm. But
that's an interesting question.Mhmm. I'm trying to think of one
that's like because it's notonly is it a I can think of
(13:06):
topics that we can take atheological stance on, that it's
a little bit more unclear to meif whether or not that
theological stance denotes apolitical action on.
(13:31):
So like, for example, we'vetalked on this podcast a lot
about our position and beliefsabout same sex relationships,
homosexuality, alternative, allthat stuff. We've talked pretty
extensive. We have a number ofepisodes about it. Okay. So
we've got a very clear like,this is what the Bible teaches
(13:53):
about sexuality, about marriage.
Does that does that mean thennecessarily, though, does our
theology include a mandate forus to attempt to legislate Yeah.
Through our votes, through ouradvocacy, who we put into office
(14:14):
and who we say, you know, who wecall in and say, support this
bill, do this, to try andlegislate sexuality. Yeah.
Cameron (14:25):
Yep. I don't feel very conflicted about that one
personally. I don't think it'ssomething that we, I think it's
fine to work with thelegislative process if that's
how you wanna engage with the inthe political realm. But I don't
feel personally like it's theresponsibility of the church to
(14:49):
legislate someone's to try andlegislate someone out of their
Sin? Sin.
Right. You know?
Luke (15:00):
Yeah. Yeah. I feel the same way about that particular
issue as well.
Cameron (15:05):
So but but but there but the argument is made right
in the other direction Yes. Bymy lots of people Mhmm. You
know, that we have the right toor we have the obligation to
Mhmm. Since marriage is of God.Right.
We have the obligation to workwithin government to protect it.
(15:33):
Yeah. I'm not so sure, but it'svery complex.
Luke (15:39):
Well, the
Cameron (15:40):
And I don't begrudge anyone that thinks differently.
It's just it's way more complexthan.
Luke (15:44):
Yeah. Well, to take that position, we don't have to go
down that and deconstruct why wedon't think that too much. But
that require that would requirefor me to hold a position like
that. I would have to call anymarriage that did not take place
in a church by a religious by aChristian officiant, like a less
(16:05):
than marriage.
Cameron (16:07):
Yeah. Or just a heterosexual marriage that was
abusive or toxic or not honoringGod.
Luke (16:14):
Mhmm.
Cameron (16:15):
Like,
Luke (16:16):
it, you know, it Right. It would, like, it would become
like, we'd have to say, well,okay, All marriages in the world
belong to Christianity.
Cameron (16:30):
Right.
Luke (16:32):
And not have any understanding of it being
established in the garden, increation as a blessing that God
has given the whole world,regardless of whether or not
they take the grace and hisdesign for it.
Cameron (16:44):
Yeah. But anyways. I think that if I had to probably
if I had to be make a make acase for one political position,
I think I would probably makeit, around the right to life.
(17:08):
Yeah. I think as a pro lifedecision
Luke (17:11):
Yep.
Cameron (17:12):
Or a pro life position.
Luke (17:13):
Mhmm.
Cameron (17:15):
And, certainly the, you know, the most obvious pro life
pro life context is, aroundabortion and the ending of
births preterm, or the ending ofhuman life preterm. But I I
(17:41):
think and there's plenty to sayon that. I'm not I'm not
minimizing that. Yeah. But but Ithink it's only part of it.
Mhmm. I think that there areother there are other aspects of
being pro life and the right tolife that Christians do not
(18:04):
think carefully enough about.
Luke (18:07):
Yeah.
Cameron (18:10):
So like, the death penalty.
Luke (18:12):
Mhmm.
Cameron (18:14):
And, just really any any political position that
seeks to end the life or notprotect the life.
Luke (18:32):
Mhmm.
Cameron (18:35):
I think that we I think if I had to take a take a
political position and say, Idon't think this is political. I
think this is actuallytheological.
Luke (18:46):
Mhmm.
Cameron (18:47):
And because I think it's theological, I will fight
for its, you know, prominence inthe discussion or whatever.
Yeah. I think that's what itwould be for me.
Luke (18:58):
Yeah. That was the only one that I could kind of think
of as well. Yeah. Then Idefinitely like, I definitely
think that the criticism of,like, Christians being very
concerned about the legislationof humans who are yet to be
(19:20):
born, the unborn, but then the,maybe lack of concern or even
the sometimes confusinglydislike for programs and things
that would care for or supportchildren who would be born in
(19:44):
risky or difficult or troubledfamilies.
Cameron (19:49):
Right.
Luke (19:49):
Yes. Because it's not a traditionally financially or got
politically conservativeposition to love those programs.
Or, you know, you know, are weputting as much money into,
making it better for people tohave babies and have children
Mhmm. So that there's less evenof a risk and a desire for
(20:12):
people to need to have abortionsor want to have abortions.
Cameron (20:16):
To have abortions. Yeah. Right.
Luke (20:17):
So,
Cameron (20:20):
yeah. Yeah. Well, I just that the whole debate for
me really came, like,specifically, like, as it as it
widens out into the wholeconversation of life, like,
being pro life, what what doesbeing pro life mean?
Luke (20:38):
Mhmm.
Cameron (20:39):
And, had a, I went to a Christian college and had a
philosophy professor I took anumber of different courses
with, and he was a Christian, isa Christian. And so we would
have you know, I think it was ina class on ethics.
Luke (21:01):
Mhmm.
Cameron (21:02):
It was. It was one of my ethics classes, and he had us
read a report or a paper by aguy, a Catholic cardinal Mhmm.
Cardinal Richelieu.
Luke (21:19):
I'm gonna nod like I know who that person is.
Cameron (21:22):
I don't. It's like r I c h a l a u. Mhmm. And the name
of the paper was Towards aConsistent Ethic of Life. And
the whole premise was you know,the Catholic position, of the
sacredness of life usually isjust extended to, what people
(21:47):
think.
It usually just the unborn andabortion, but it extends to
these other areas as well. Youknow, particularly making the
case of why the same argumentexists for those who are, like,
gonna be put to death Yep. Orunder the death penalty. And for
me, it was pretty paradigmshifting for me, and feel like,
(22:16):
it's not something that I canit's not something that I can
support. I don't I don't supportthe death penalty.
Mhmm. And and I feel I feel likeit's the most consistent way
(22:37):
that I can say human lifematters. We did not create it.
Luke (22:48):
Right.
Cameron (22:51):
And so we do not get to determine when to end it. Yep.
And And I'm going to try to holdthat position consistently. You
know, there it becomes a reallyeasy the the question really
becomes, well, like, obviously,you see in scripture God
(23:15):
ordering the killing of peopleYeah. The unrighteous
Luke (23:20):
Mhmm.
Cameron (23:21):
Or even those who have broken a law or sinned. Right.
And so they say, well, likeobviously the Bible has capital
punishment. Yep. I don'tdisagree with that.
I think, though, in thosesituations, what it's important
(23:45):
the the the question that'simportant to me to ask is not
whether or not does the Biblecontain instances of capital
punishment or even God'sendorsement of capital
punishment. Mhmm. But the realquestion is not is capital
punishment in the Bible, but isit something that human beings
(24:10):
have the capacity to do justly.
Luke (24:16):
Right.
Cameron (24:20):
Is it about justice? Yep. Or is it about revenge?
Mhmm. Is it about justice or isit about punishment?
Yep. And I think that there's asubstantial difference between
God's ordering of capitalpunishment as the creator of
(24:45):
life and my assessment ofwhether or not this person Mhmm.
Deserves to live any longerYeah. Because of their crimes or
because of where they currentlyexist, like in the womb of
another person.
Luke (25:06):
Mhmm.
Cameron (25:06):
And I don't think that humans have the capacity to
justly make those determinationsin a way that we could walk with
confidence to say this is thecorrect decision. Right. Because
Luke (25:25):
this is it's it's it ties into your argument, particularly
for, you know, again, talkingabout the death penalty. But I I
I think what you're saying iseven bigger than this. But, you
know, how many people, like,there have been people who have
been exonerated from death row.
Cameron (25:43):
Sure.
Luke (25:44):
Yep. What percentage of error is acceptable when
Cameron (25:48):
it comes to death row? That's what I'm saying. It's
like, can we do it justly?
Luke (25:53):
Right. We can't. Well, also, if anyone's interested, I
actually I need I probably needto do, some reading to see if
the situation has changed, but,the lethal injection is a very
terrible way to die. It was kindof coming to light in the last
(26:13):
handful of years because somestates have not been able to get
a hold of the paralysis drug
Cameron (26:19):
Mhmm.
Luke (26:19):
That makes you paralyzed when you are injected with the
other things that actually killyou. And it's been terrifying to
people because some people havebeen dying without the paralysis
drug that keeps your body fromshowing how much pain you're
experiencing. And also doctorsdon't, like trained doctors
(26:42):
don't administer the anesthesia.Mhmm. It's done by untrained
people because doctors do noharm.
Right. And so anesthesia is notalways properly applied in
those. And so, like, even justthe understanding that, like, we
have yet to devise a unpainfulor humane or kind
Cameron (27:04):
You've seen it so much so that, like, some you've seen
news articles about people onprisoners on death row
requesting the firing squad.
Luke (27:14):
Yeah. Probably be a little bit better.
Cameron (27:18):
Right. So we can't do it justly. No. In my mind.
Right.
And that's even that's a deeperthing than saying we can't do it
well. We know how to killpeople. Sure. We know how to
kill people. It'll happen.
Right. But, yeah. So, Irecognize, though, that even my
(27:45):
positions have someinconsistencies in them. I do
recognize that, you know, ifsomeone broke into my home in
the middle of the night tryingto do harm to my wife or my
kids, would I protect them evento the death? Of course.
Right. Of course I would.
Luke (28:05):
Mhmm.
Cameron (28:06):
As would any man worth his salt. Mhmm. You know? So but
but I think that there's adifference between I think I do
think that there is adifference. I don't really know
what the difference is.
Maybe we should talk about it. Idon't know. It's hard for me to
(28:26):
define. I feel like there's adifference between the right to
life and having an antiabortion, anti capital
punishment position and notbeing a pacifist. I don't
(28:47):
consider myself a pacifist.
Luke (28:48):
Right. Right.
Cameron (28:51):
But sometimes those things kinda get lumped. Yeah.
Into one another. Yep. I don'treally know how to make sense
out of that inside myself.
Mhmm. But I don't I don't feelat least not I'm not I'm not a
(29:12):
practical pacifist.
Luke (29:13):
Sure.
Cameron (29:14):
Because in those situations of practicality, I
would not just passively sit byand let someone harm my family.
Luke (29:21):
Right. Here's here's the thing is, you know, we live in
an imperfect world. There are,like, wow. We're there's lots of
situations out there in theworld that, if we try to, like,
(29:44):
say that, oh, it's just simplyblack and white. So some that I
I was I talked friend who thiswas his ethnic background, his
cultural background, and therewas a big conversion of people,
a people group who practicepolygamy.
(30:06):
So a bunch of people who werepracticing polygamists got saved
by Jesus. And
Cameron (30:13):
What we do with our families?
Luke (30:14):
What do we do? What do we do? What do we do? Do do we
divorce, which Jesus says is notgood, and then just so I gotta
pick 1. 1?
And then What about the kids?What about the kids Yeah. And
the support and the and the andthe and the and the and so which
evil are we gonna choose? Whichwhich one's good, bad, what,
(30:38):
like, whatever. Like, in thisvery That
Cameron (30:40):
would make a great scenario for a Christian ethics
class to have a student writeon.
Luke (30:46):
Oh, yeah. Like, because that you know? But here but here
we are. Let's say that, like,okay. Anti abortion, anti death
penalty, someone is coming withintent to do harm to your
family.
If they successfully do harm toyour family, either severely or
(31:08):
death, that is evil. That iswrong. That is bad. You have the
ability to at least attempt tosuccessfully defend your family
from that evil, and it resultsin their death, which is not
great. We would prefer theylive.
(31:30):
Yep. You've got 2 things thatare not good, but we're gonna
have to choose one of them.
Cameron (31:37):
Mhmm.
Luke (31:38):
And I don't think it's inconsistent to say that you
would prefer I I think the onewhere the person who is
intending to chose to enact harmand danger, the consequence of
(31:59):
that is what they reap, whatthey sowed in that moment. Yes.
Cameron (32:04):
Mhmm.
Luke (32:04):
I think that is a lesser evil than the other.
Cameron (32:08):
Right. I do too.
Luke (32:10):
And that's that's why I would choose it because there is
no choice in that moment. Evilis about to happen. Yeah. What
do I do with that evil?
Cameron (32:18):
Yep.
Luke (32:21):
Right. The problem with the death penalty is is that for
the most part, that evil is nolonger a threat
Cameron (32:32):
because it's
Luke (32:33):
it's not gonna they're not causing harm Yeah. To general
public, too. And we can talkabout the ship of Theseus and
all that, too. Like, are we evenactually exacting punishment on
the person who committed thecrime if it's x amount of years
(32:55):
really removed and all of thatphilosophical question. But, I
think it's different.
Cameron (33:03):
I do too. I think there's something in the
position that upholds protectionof the innocent.
Luke (33:14):
Mhmm.
Cameron (33:15):
Now they're not in like, a death penalty case,
you're not necessarily talkingabout the protection of the
innocent. No. Right? They're notinnocent.
Luke (33:24):
We're talking of, supposedly, we're talking about
justice.
Cameron (33:28):
Right. Right. Which so the projection of the innocent,
like, the the unborn child inthe womb of its mother or my
kids or my wife, you know, in asituation like that. So I think
there is that added dynamic toit as well that there is a that
(33:52):
there is a righteous componentof the protection of those who
cannot, at least in some cases,protect themselves.
Luke (33:59):
Yep. Yeah.
Cameron (34:02):
So yeah. But even even in that, you know, like, I I
don't anticipate. I don't inwell, I told people that I
wouldn't be I wouldn't bepreaching my own personal
political ideology, and so Iwon't be preaching that. Even
though you may be you may mightgo to my church and you're
(34:23):
watching this now and you'reRight. Saying, well But I I
don't think anyone It would befoolish, I think, for anyone to
think that I don't have my ownpersonal political perspectives.
Correct. But, it's not my job orcalling or responsibility to
preach my perspectives. Mhmm.It's my job to preach the word.
(34:44):
Mhmm.
And what will some of thosepositions are in your are in the
word. Yeah. I I I get it. But aswe were talking even before the
cameras were rolling, it's alittle bit more nuanced than
just like, this is what theBible says on this. So there.
Right. Right. It's it's a it's amore nuanced conversation,
(35:05):
position, discussion then Yeah.Can really not even that we can
easily have in the time frame.It's not even about the time
frame.
Luke (35:13):
Mhmm.
Cameron (35:13):
As much as it is about the environment of interaction
and dialogue. Yeah. I'm I'm justtalking to them. Right. On
Wednesday nights, when we haveour bible study, we're able to
sit with people and and dealwith some extraordinarily
nuanced topics.
Yeah. Human sexuality, aprotestant evangelical, whatever
you wanna do, call it, like,response to certain Catholic
(35:37):
doctrines. Yeah. Whatever. Wecan sit down and have kind of a
face to face, you know, dialogueconversation slash teaching
slash study with these peopleand and really dive into some
fairly nuanced topics andsometimes come out being like,
yeah.
I think this is really clear whywe don't believe in the rapture.
Luke (36:01):
Sure. Yeah. Right?
Cameron (36:03):
And then other times, come out being like a it's not
that simple. Like a, why doCatholics pray? Why do Catholics
ask the saints to pray for them?Yes. Which I don't think is
something that I think we saidit last week.
We did. But I don't think thatthey got it.
Luke (36:24):
Really?
Cameron (36:25):
I think I I think some of them still think that prayers
are offered to the saints.
Luke (36:38):
Like, saints so and so, please do this for me.
Cameron (36:41):
Yes.
Luke (36:42):
Yeah. Rather than what they
Cameron (36:44):
Our father in heaven. Right. You know? So they're not
praying to God. I'm praying toSaint Michael.
Right.
Luke (36:50):
Right.
Cameron (36:50):
No. No. No. No. No.
You're not praying to SaintMichael. Right. You're asking
Saint Michael to pray for you.
Luke (36:57):
Right.
Cameron (36:59):
Like I would be asking you to pray for me.
Luke (37:01):
Mhmm.
Cameron (37:03):
I I think that some of them were confused on that.
Luke (37:07):
Yeah. That's fair.
Cameron (37:10):
Yeah. So
Luke (37:10):
They may have been. If you're listening and you were
like, oh, yeah. We were confusedon that. Let us know.
Cameron (37:16):
Because we just clarified it for you.
Luke (37:18):
Oh, yeah.
Cameron (37:21):
But, anyway, yeah, I enjoyed the Wednesday night
conversations
Luke (37:24):
Mhmm.
Cameron (37:25):
There, with that series. Wasn't crazy about the
Sunday morning series, but,trust that God uses those things
that I'm even that I'm notreally crazy about Yeah. To
speak truth into people's heartsand lives. It certainly was an
(37:49):
interesting one. It was a it wasan interesting series.
Yeah. Lots of conversation, lotsof comments, lots of lots of,
feedback Mhmm. On it.
Luke (38:01):
Yeah.
Cameron (38:01):
So,
Luke (38:04):
yeah. I was surprised I didn't get more comments on the
one I did about the problem ofevil.
Cameron (38:16):
Where was there a part of it that you expected to get
more, like, feedback or commentsor questions or push back on?
Luke (38:26):
Oh, I guess that's a good question. I don't really know. I
don't know that where I wouldhave gotten more I don't know
where I would have gotten more.I think I was expecting some
people to want to come up andmake it simpler. Mhmm.
To say, like, well, you shouldhave just said, you
Cameron (38:43):
know,
Luke (38:43):
this or something like that. Because I tried to kind of
avoid some of the simplisticsimplistic answers or the
simplistic theodysies. Mhmm. SoI didn't I didn't wanna portray
a certain theodysy as morestrong than I think it actually
is. Mhmm.
Because I I I'm of thepersuasion that the Bible
doesn't really offer a theodicyYeah. In the most strictest of
(39:08):
senses.
Cameron (39:09):
Not really. No.
Luke (39:10):
And so I was pretty soft in my, like, delivery of the 2
theodysseys I offered. Mhmm.Because because I think the
Bible's pretty soft on answeringthat question.
Cameron (39:24):
On why? Yeah. Yeah.
Luke (39:26):
So specifically answering that question why. So I but I
find that a lot of people still,particularly people who are
interested and familiar of thetopic, are much more like just
like, well, this is the answer.Mhmm. And I'm kind of you know?
So I always think I wasexpecting a little bit of that.
Cameron (39:47):
Mhmm. So Mhmm. Yeah. Okay. Well, that's kind of our
reflection.
Yeah. A little bit on, I guess,both that series, the asking for
a friend series, but also someof the stuff that we began to
talk about. We didn't reallyeven begin to talk about that
(40:08):
yesterday, but No. It's in thesame realm.
Luke (40:10):
Yeah. Did you wanna talk any more about, like, why you
weren't a super fan of theSunday mornings? I just
Cameron (40:22):
I Yeah. I I feel it feels to me to be, like, more
emotional than it does, like oneparticular thing that I can put
my finger on. Mhmm. I don't, Ifelt like in some ways
obviously, there were questionsthat were posed that were asked,
and so it wasn't like we weremanufacturing topics or
(40:44):
questions or anything like that.They were important enough to
some people
Luke (40:48):
Yep.
Cameron (40:49):
To ask them, but in some ways, I felt like we were
it felt just really disjointedMhmm. Week to week.
Luke (40:59):
Yeah. Definitely.
Cameron (41:01):
And it felt a little bit manufactured in terms of
like its cohesiveness or itsapplicability to the body. Mhmm.
And so I I just kinda felt like,it may just be how I like my my
(41:32):
preference in preaching is to bebe a little bit more expository
than topical, which isinteresting because like for the
next 6 months, we're pretty muchall
Luke (41:47):
Topical.
Cameron (41:48):
Pretty much. Not entirely, but
Luke (41:51):
Not entirely, but we we got after this forgiveness after
the talking point series?
Cameron (41:58):
Yes. Yeah? Uh-huh.
Luke (42:00):
Which you'll hit out of the park.
Cameron (42:02):
Yeah. I got a lot on that. Yeah. And the scripture
has a lot
Luke (42:07):
It does.
Cameron (42:08):
On that. Mhmm.
Luke (42:10):
Political one is a little bit more thematic.
Cameron (42:14):
Yes.
Luke (42:15):
Deals with, like, a broader theological application
rather than 1 or 2 verses.
Cameron (42:20):
Correct. With, I think, the exception of this week well,
I don't even wanna say it's anexception, but this coming
weekend
Luke (42:28):
Mhmm.
Cameron (42:29):
Where my point really is to say, okay, if we are
citizens of heaven Yep. And,like, the the way in which both
the gospels and Paul talks aboutthat kingdom. It's it's the
kingdom of Jesus. Right? You putthe gospels and like the kingdom
(42:51):
is here.
The kingdom is nearer now.Repent and believe. Mhmm. And
then particularly in the gospelof Matthew, his like the
recording of Jesus saying thekingdom of heaven is like, the
kingdom of heaven is like, thekingdom of heaven is like. So we
(43:14):
are citizens of that kingdom
Luke (43:16):
Mhmm.
Cameron (43:17):
And Jesus rules that kingdom.
Luke (43:20):
Yeah.
Cameron (43:20):
And we are our identity is rooted in that, not in our
Americanism.
Luke (43:27):
Mhmm.
Cameron (43:29):
So if we are citizens of a different kingdom and Jesus
rules that kingdom and Jesustalked about what that kingdom
is like Yep. It's important forus, I think, to understand what
was important to Jesus in thatkingdom so that we can make it
important in our lives.
Luke (43:45):
Yeah.
Cameron (43:45):
And then let that what's important to Jesus and
what's important to his kingdom.Mhmm. Let those things guide our
political positions,perspectives, persuasions Yeah.
And purpose.
Luke (44:00):
Yeah. Mhmm.
Cameron (44:02):
So I think the problem this week is gonna be having so
many examples in scripture ofJesus talking about the kingdom
of heaven is like Mhmm. Thatit's gonna be difficult to
choose
Luke (44:16):
Which ones?
Cameron (44:17):
Which ones Yeah. Without seemingly saying, well,
this one's not as importantbecause we're not gonna talk as
much about it, but this one'smore important, which is not the
case. But we're just like
Luke (44:29):
it is I think as I've been thinking about, like, the
series, which, like I think,like, anytime this question
comes up, I find the mostdifficult part to get people to
grasp is that the Bible has noconception, representative
(44:55):
government. And you read it in1st service when you read out of
2nd Timothy. I'm like, yeah.That is written about a
monarchy. Mhmm.
About, like, a, emperor who, canbe crazy, because they were all
(45:17):
genetically inbred and were hadmental illnesses, and he made
his horse a general and thenburnt down part of Rome and
blamed it on the Christians.Like, Nero was nuts. Like and so
Paul's saying, you know, prayfor Nero. Yeah. Because because
brother needs the prayer.
Right. And just pray that wewould live peaceably. Like, you
(45:40):
can hear that.
Cameron (45:41):
Yeah.
Luke (45:41):
It because there's not much control given to Christians
in their context when those whenthe when the Bible is written.
Right. Except for the control inwhich God has over the rulers of
this world. And it's we live ina very different Right. Where
we're encouraged to vote, toparticipate, make our voice
(46:03):
known, and affect some sort ofcontrol or effect on the outcome
of our self rule government,however we want to talk about
it.
And that is such a big jump. Areyou gonna talk about that at all
in the in your sermons or like
Cameron (46:26):
Yes. I will talk about that some. Yeah. Yeah. When we
like, it'll either be in number3 or number 4, about how what is
the best way or what are not theeven the best way.
What are some of the options forChristians to faithfully engage
(46:51):
in the current political, in thecurrent political landscape.
Yeah. Yeah. So
Luke (47:02):
Do I look forward to it?
Cameron (47:06):
Yeah. So I it wasn't really clear to me how I was
gonna lay out the series untilthis past week. Yeah. And then
it all kind of like, okay. Yeah.
That's the that's the route togo, or that's a route to go.
Yeah. It's not the right one,but Yeah. Or v one. V one.
It's a one. It's a one. Yes.
Luke (47:28):
Yeah. A one steak sauce.
Cameron (47:31):
Which you should never, ever, ever put a sauce on steak,
by the way. We'll do a wholeepisode about that. If you're
putting steak sauce on yoursteak, we need to have a
Luke (47:40):
talk. Yeah. It wasn't seasoned correctly.
Cameron (47:43):
Or cooked well.
Luke (47:45):
Right. Yeah. Yeah. Don't don't order a well done steak
and then put sauce on it.
Cameron (47:52):
Brad Swanson, we're talking to you.
Luke (47:54):
Yeah, Brad. Alright. Well, that's probably enough for 1
Cameron (48:00):
It is. Episode. Yes. Thanks for listening as always.
You can send in your questions,comments, whatever to our text
line, 716-201-0507, Or did I getthat right?
Luke (48:12):
Yeah. You got it.
Cameron (48:13):
Okay. Or comment here on the if you're watching on
YouTube, comment here. If you'relistening, send this episode to
someone. Yeah. Share it.
Like it. Subscribe. Write
Luke (48:23):
a review.
Cameron (48:24):
Write a review.
Luke (48:25):
Yeah.
Cameron (48:25):
It's helpful for us.
Luke (48:26):
Yeah.
Cameron (48:28):
It'd be awesome to hit 200 subscribers by the end of
the year. Yeah. Maybe, like, 70ish more. Yep. Be great.
So share it with some people.Encourage them to, subscribe.
That'd be great. And until nexttime. Bye.
Bye.
Welcome to the uncut honest uncut conversations about
faith, life, and ministry.Cameron and I are sitting down
on this Gloomy. Gloomy. It isnow gloomy Monday afternoon, and
(00:26):
we decided to hit record. Not a100% sure what we're gonna talk
about.
We have some ideas. But we do.Cam says he's got a question. So
Cameron (00:35):
Well, my question was kind of around one of our ideas,
which was, so we've preachedquite a few different types of
sermons in the last couple ofweeks.
Luke (00:46):
We have. Couple of weeks ago on the podcast, we were
talking about the series we werefinishing up. We just finished
the asking for a friend where wekinda sourced some questions,
did some topical sermons on it.And then yesterday, you started,
a political sermon series. Well,I don't know if that's the
correct way to say it.
It's a sermon series on theintegration or intersection of
(01:10):
faith and politics. It'd be theright way of saying that.
Cameron (01:14):
Right. So. Not intentionally planned for the
day after there was anassassination attempt. No.
Because former president Trump.
Luke (01:23):
Right. We we made that we planned that sermon series back
in October last
Cameron (01:28):
year. Correct. So Yeah. So it just happened so happened
to be Yeah. On the the day afterthere was an attempted
assassination.
Luke (01:39):
Right. We did plan it in the middle of election season,
though.
Cameron (01:42):
We did. Yes. We felt like potential. Yes. We felt
like, as has been the case inyears previous, that around this
time of year in an electioncycle Yeah.
A few months before, anelection, at least in the major
election, not midterms, but themajor election, the presidential
(02:05):
election, that people are thereare a number of things. One,
they're just, like, weary Yeah.Of the consistent polarization.
The words I used yesterday,polarization, demonization Mhmm.
And that they there's so there'sa weariness, but there's also,
(02:30):
like, a felt anxiety
Luke (02:34):
Mhmm.
Cameron (02:34):
In most people's hearts and minds about the rhetoric
that just, like, continuescontinues to go and how toxic it
is Yeah. On both sides, everyside of the spectrum. I see most
I don't watch mainstream media.I don't I don't watch I don't
have I don't sit down and watchthe news every night. I read our
(02:56):
local paper.
So I, like, I don't I I I peruseonce in the morning Mhmm. Google
News Feed on my phone. But Ilike, I'm not, like, sitting it
down and watching CNN all day orsitting down and watching Fox
News all day.
Luke (03:15):
I'm same way. I get I get one email a day that has the top
headlines Mhmm. And a brief,mostly, like, uncharged
description of the headline newsarticle of the primary
information Mhmm. And a link toa news article about that. Yeah.
90% of the time, I never clickon that news article. I just
(03:37):
read the headlines.
Cameron (03:38):
Yeah.
Luke (03:38):
And then I go on on about my day.
Cameron (03:39):
Right. So a lot of what people see, is how people are
responding to what's happeningon things like Facebook and
Instagram and Right. Twitter and
Luke (03:52):
all those You mean
Cameron (03:52):
x, Cameron? X. Yes. And, man, I mean, if you want to
if you wanna see just the armpitof humanity, Go watch a
political politically chargedback and forth on social media.
(04:16):
It is just so bad.
Yeah. So, so, so bad. So,anyway, to have a series like
this, I wanted to try andencourage our church exhort our
(04:39):
church, and in some cases,admonish the church
Luke (04:44):
Mhmm.
Cameron (04:44):
To, engage in a different type of narrative
Yeah. And a different type ofinteraction with this political
and election season in life. Sothat was really the point of the
(05:05):
series. And to do so far enoughahead of the election itself
Luke (05:12):
Mhmm. So
Cameron (05:12):
that you feel like if you choose to vote, you feel
like you're going into thatdecision, not super charged up
emotionally by what you hear andsee around you.
Luke (05:29):
Right.
Cameron (05:29):
But with, like, a fairly level, God honoring
perspective. Yep. So that's whywe're doing it now. Feel like it
it it the the world begs for it.Church begs for it.
(05:51):
And, you know, there's never II'm never really sure, well, I'm
never really sure how manysermons any sermon is going to,
like, land in people's lives.I've had sermons where I
thought, well, this is this ispretty good.
Luke (06:04):
Mhmm.
Cameron (06:05):
And then, like, seemingly flop or go over Yeah.
Or, like, whatever. Then I'vehad sermons where, like, I'm
like, ah, I just not feel goodabout this content. Don't know
about it. Yeah.
Luke (06:18):
And have
Cameron (06:18):
a person come up to me and say that that was the best
sermon that they've ever heardon a topic or they feel really
moved or challenged or whatever.I don't know. Yep. So, yeah, I,
the the church world, just likeany other portion of the world,
(06:41):
seems to hold pretty tightly totheir political beliefs. Mhmm.
Like I said yesterday in thesermon, I don't know a single
person who thinks that theirfaith and their political,
positions are in conflict withone another. Yeah. No. I don't I
(07:05):
I, like, I don't know a singleChristian who would say, yeah. I
know that's not what Jesus woulddo, but that's what I that's
just what I believe.
Luke (07:12):
Right. No one, people don't typically walk around
thinking that they are a bag ofconflictions.
Cameron (07:20):
Right. No, they don't. We all think we're.
Luke (07:23):
Very cohesive.
Cameron (07:24):
Yes.
Luke (07:24):
I've got this all figured out. I'm very consistent.
Cameron (07:27):
We're consistent. Yeah.
Luke (07:28):
That's what we think.
Cameron (07:29):
Generally what people think. Yeah. And so to I think
that's part of the problembecause it's really it becomes
it becomes very easy when weconflate our political positions
(07:52):
with truth Yep. Ultimate truth.Like truth is rooted in God type
of truth Mhmm.
Then anyone that doesn't holdthat position is now against
God, and therefore evil. Mhmm.And it becomes very evil or very
(08:16):
easy to vilify them, not just ona political spectrum, but to,
like, break unity, Christianunity with them or fellowship
with them.
Luke (08:29):
Right.
Cameron (08:30):
Because you are sinning. Right. If you do not
hold this position because it'sobviously the most faithful
Christian position that you canhold.
Luke (08:40):
Yeah. So to, like, put this to put even, like, a finer
point of it, like, we have thecore beliefs. Christ is Lord.
God is Trinity. Mhmm.
We're His church. Mhmm. We're tospread the gospel. Mhmm. And
like the Bible is his word.
And then slowly along insidethat truth becomes adjacent
(09:06):
these other truths or believedtruths of my can this candidate
is right, this policy iscorrect. Mhmm. And suddenly,
there seems to be very littledistinction. They seem to be
almost either synonymous or, youwere using the word enmeshed,
but not necessarily related tobeliefs, related to our own
(09:32):
merging with our beliefs, whichis its own topic. But these
beliefs become so synonymousthat when someone says, well,
your candidate is not the bestcandidate.
It feels like they're attacking
Cameron (09:46):
the Trinity. You are not the best person, right?
Luke (09:49):
Yeah. Or you're not the best person. You become enmeshed
with your beliefs.
Cameron (09:52):
Yeah. Or your candidate. Yeah. Or you're so
you're so incredibly codependentupon their success. Yes.
For your own value. Right. Yeah.I, you know, I'm I'm one of the
things that I said yesterday wasthat, that I wouldn't be
(10:15):
preaching my own politicalideology, and I'm I won't do
that. And that there that no oneshould walk away from that
series feeling like, oh, Conduitobviously holds this political
position.
Right. You know? But I am kindof wrestling with the question
(10:42):
of whether or not there arepolitical even as I'm stating
the question, are there currenthot button political issues that
(11:07):
we can and do and should havevery strong beliefs in and that
we can, in, like, kinda like 1unified voice Say something. As
the church say, this is whatGod's word says about this.
Yeah.
And does it then cease to be apolitical belief and it's really
(11:32):
just a theological one? It's notlike a we're not making a
political statement. It maybe isfinding its context in the
political Right. In thepolitical world, but this is not
political. This is theological.
Luke (11:48):
I think that's the way it used to feel at some point, But
things have kind of gotten somessy that it's hard to feel
that way, at least when it comesto candidates and things like
that. Like, I remember being akid and it being like, oh, well,
(12:11):
this is the Christian candidateYeah. Quote unquote.
Cameron (12:15):
Yeah.
Luke (12:16):
You know? Now whether or not they actually ever were was
is, you know, for the historiansto debate. Whereas, like, now,
like, one, Christianity's takena backseat. It's no longer like
someone can be the quote unquoteChristian approved candidate and
(12:39):
be very a religious. Mhmm.
And it seems to not have mademuch of a difference. Mhmm. But
that's an interesting question.Mhmm. I'm trying to think of one
that's like because it's notonly is it a I can think of
(13:06):
topics that we can take atheological stance on, that it's
a little bit more unclear to meif whether or not that
theological stance denotes apolitical action on.
(13:31):
So like, for example, we'vetalked on this podcast a lot
about our position and beliefsabout same sex relationships,
homosexuality, alternative, allthat stuff. We've talked pretty
extensive. We have a number ofepisodes about it. Okay. So
we've got a very clear like,this is what the Bible teaches
(13:53):
about sexuality, about marriage.
Does that does that mean thennecessarily, though, does our
theology include a mandate forus to attempt to legislate Yeah.
Through our votes, through ouradvocacy, who we put into office
(14:14):
and who we say, you know, who wecall in and say, support this
bill, do this, to try andlegislate sexuality. Yeah.
Cameron (14:25):
Yep. I don't feel very conflicted about that one
personally. I don't think it'ssomething that we, I think it's
fine to work with thelegislative process if that's
how you wanna engage with the inthe political realm. But I don't
feel personally like it's theresponsibility of the church to
(14:49):
legislate someone's to try andlegislate someone out of their
Sin? Sin.
Right. You know?
Luke (15:00):
Yeah. Yeah. I feel the same way about that particular
issue as well.
Cameron (15:05):
So but but but there but the argument is made right
in the other direction Yes. Bymy lots of people Mhmm. You
know, that we have the right toor we have the obligation to
Mhmm. Since marriage is of God.Right.
We have the obligation to workwithin government to protect it.
(15:33):
Yeah. I'm not so sure, but it'svery complex.
Luke (15:39):
Well, the
Cameron (15:40):
And I don't begrudge anyone that thinks differently.
It's just it's way more complexthan.
Luke (15:44):
Yeah. Well, to take that position, we don't have to go
down that and deconstruct why wedon't think that too much. But
that require that would requirefor me to hold a position like
that. I would have to call anymarriage that did not take place
in a church by a religious by aChristian officiant, like a less
(16:05):
than marriage.
Cameron (16:07):
Yeah. Or just a heterosexual marriage that was
abusive or toxic or not honoringGod.
Luke (16:14):
Mhmm.
Cameron (16:15):
Like,
Luke (16:16):
it, you know, it Right. It would, like, it would become
like, we'd have to say, well,okay, All marriages in the world
belong to Christianity.
Cameron (16:30):
Right.
Luke (16:32):
And not have any understanding of it being
established in the garden, increation as a blessing that God
has given the whole world,regardless of whether or not
they take the grace and hisdesign for it.
Cameron (16:44):
Yeah. But anyways. I think that if I had to probably
if I had to be make a make acase for one political position,
I think I would probably makeit, around the right to life.
(17:08):
Yeah. I think as a pro lifedecision
Luke (17:11):
Yep.
Cameron (17:12):
Or a pro life position.
Luke (17:13):
Mhmm.
Cameron (17:15):
And, certainly the, you know, the most obvious pro life
pro life context is, aroundabortion and the ending of
births preterm, or the ending ofhuman life preterm. But I I
(17:41):
think and there's plenty to sayon that. I'm not I'm not
minimizing that. Yeah. But but Ithink it's only part of it.
Mhmm. I think that there areother there are other aspects of
being pro life and the right tolife that Christians do not
(18:04):
think carefully enough about.
Luke (18:07):
Yeah.
Cameron (18:10):
So like, the death penalty.
Luke (18:12):
Mhmm.
Cameron (18:14):
And, just really any any political position that
seeks to end the life or notprotect the life.
Luke (18:32):
Mhmm.
Cameron (18:35):
I think that we I think if I had to take a take a
political position and say, Idon't think this is political. I
think this is actuallytheological.
Luke (18:46):
Mhmm.
Cameron (18:47):
And because I think it's theological, I will fight
for its, you know, prominence inthe discussion or whatever.
Yeah. I think that's what itwould be for me.
Luke (18:58):
Yeah. That was the only one that I could kind of think
of as well. Yeah. Then Idefinitely like, I definitely
think that the criticism of,like, Christians being very
concerned about the legislationof humans who are yet to be
(19:20):
born, the unborn, but then the,maybe lack of concern or even
the sometimes confusinglydislike for programs and things
that would care for or supportchildren who would be born in
(19:44):
risky or difficult or troubledfamilies.
Cameron (19:49):
Right.
Luke (19:49):
Yes. Because it's not a traditionally financially or got
politically conservativeposition to love those programs.
Or, you know, you know, are weputting as much money into,
making it better for people tohave babies and have children
Mhmm. So that there's less evenof a risk and a desire for
(20:12):
people to need to have abortionsor want to have abortions.
Cameron (20:16):
To have abortions. Yeah. Right.
Luke (20:17):
So,
Cameron (20:20):
yeah. Yeah. Well, I just that the whole debate for
me really came, like,specifically, like, as it as it
widens out into the wholeconversation of life, like,
being pro life, what what doesbeing pro life mean?
Luke (20:38):
Mhmm.
Cameron (20:39):
And, had a, I went to a Christian college and had a
philosophy professor I took anumber of different courses
with, and he was a Christian, isa Christian. And so we would
have you know, I think it was ina class on ethics.
Luke (21:01):
Mhmm.
Cameron (21:02):
It was. It was one of my ethics classes, and he had us
read a report or a paper by aguy, a Catholic cardinal Mhmm.
Cardinal Richelieu.
Luke (21:19):
I'm gonna nod like I know who that person is.
Cameron (21:22):
I don't. It's like r I c h a l a u. Mhmm. And the name
of the paper was Towards aConsistent Ethic of Life. And
the whole premise was you know,the Catholic position, of the
sacredness of life usually isjust extended to, what people
(21:47):
think.
It usually just the unborn andabortion, but it extends to
these other areas as well. Youknow, particularly making the
case of why the same argumentexists for those who are, like,
gonna be put to death Yep. Orunder the death penalty. And for
me, it was pretty paradigmshifting for me, and feel like,
(22:16):
it's not something that I canit's not something that I can
support. I don't I don't supportthe death penalty.
Mhmm. And and I feel I feel likeit's the most consistent way
(22:37):
that I can say human lifematters. We did not create it.
Luke (22:48):
Right.
Cameron (22:51):
And so we do not get to determine when to end it. Yep.
And And I'm going to try to holdthat position consistently. You
know, there it becomes a reallyeasy the the question really
becomes, well, like, obviously,you see in scripture God
(23:15):
ordering the killing of peopleYeah. The unrighteous
Luke (23:20):
Mhmm.
Cameron (23:21):
Or even those who have broken a law or sinned. Right.
And so they say, well, likeobviously the Bible has capital
punishment. Yep. I don'tdisagree with that.
I think, though, in thosesituations, what it's important
(23:45):
the the the question that'simportant to me to ask is not
whether or not does the Biblecontain instances of capital
punishment or even God'sendorsement of capital
punishment. Mhmm. But the realquestion is not is capital
punishment in the Bible, but isit something that human beings
(24:10):
have the capacity to do justly.
Luke (24:16):
Right.
Cameron (24:20):
Is it about justice? Yep. Or is it about revenge?
Mhmm. Is it about justice or isit about punishment?
Yep. And I think that there's asubstantial difference between
God's ordering of capitalpunishment as the creator of
(24:45):
life and my assessment ofwhether or not this person Mhmm.
Deserves to live any longerYeah. Because of their crimes or
because of where they currentlyexist, like in the womb of
another person.
Luke (25:06):
Mhmm.
Cameron (25:06):
And I don't think that humans have the capacity to
justly make those determinationsin a way that we could walk with
confidence to say this is thecorrect decision. Right. Because
Luke (25:25):
this is it's it's it ties into your argument, particularly
for, you know, again, talkingabout the death penalty. But I I
I think what you're saying iseven bigger than this. But, you
know, how many people, like,there have been people who have
been exonerated from death row.
Cameron (25:43):
Sure.
Luke (25:44):
Yep. What percentage of error is acceptable when
Cameron (25:48):
it comes to death row? That's what I'm saying. It's
like, can we do it justly?
Luke (25:53):
Right. We can't. Well, also, if anyone's interested, I
actually I need I probably needto do, some reading to see if
the situation has changed, but,the lethal injection is a very
terrible way to die. It was kindof coming to light in the last
(26:13):
handful of years because somestates have not been able to get
a hold of the paralysis drug
Cameron (26:19):
Mhmm.
Luke (26:19):
That makes you paralyzed when you are injected with the
other things that actually killyou. And it's been terrifying to
people because some people havebeen dying without the paralysis
drug that keeps your body fromshowing how much pain you're
experiencing. And also doctorsdon't, like trained doctors
(26:42):
don't administer the anesthesia.Mhmm. It's done by untrained
people because doctors do noharm.
Right. And so anesthesia is notalways properly applied in
those. And so, like, even justthe understanding that, like, we
have yet to devise a unpainfulor humane or kind
Cameron (27:04):
You've seen it so much so that, like, some you've seen
news articles about people onprisoners on death row
requesting the firing squad.
Luke (27:14):
Yeah. Probably be a little bit better.
Cameron (27:18):
Right. So we can't do it justly. No. In my mind.
Right.
And that's even that's a deeperthing than saying we can't do it
well. We know how to killpeople. Sure. We know how to
kill people. It'll happen.
Right. But, yeah. So, Irecognize, though, that even my
(27:45):
positions have someinconsistencies in them. I do
recognize that, you know, ifsomeone broke into my home in
the middle of the night tryingto do harm to my wife or my
kids, would I protect them evento the death? Of course.
Right. Of course I would.
Luke (28:05):
Mhmm.
Cameron (28:06):
As would any man worth his salt. Mhmm. You know? So but
but I think that there's adifference between I think I do
think that there is adifference. I don't really know
what the difference is.
Maybe we should talk about it. Idon't know. It's hard for me to
(28:26):
define. I feel like there's adifference between the right to
life and having an antiabortion, anti capital
punishment position and notbeing a pacifist. I don't
(28:47):
consider myself a pacifist.
Luke (28:48):
Right. Right.
Cameron (28:51):
But sometimes those things kinda get lumped. Yeah.
Into one another. Yep. I don'treally know how to make sense
out of that inside myself.
Mhmm. But I don't I don't feelat least not I'm not I'm not a
(29:12):
practical pacifist.
Luke (29:13):
Sure.
Cameron (29:14):
Because in those situations of practicality, I
would not just passively sit byand let someone harm my family.
Luke (29:21):
Right. Here's here's the thing is, you know, we live in
an imperfect world. There are,like, wow. We're there's lots of
situations out there in theworld that, if we try to, like,
(29:44):
say that, oh, it's just simplyblack and white. So some that I
I was I talked friend who thiswas his ethnic background, his
cultural background, and therewas a big conversion of people,
a people group who practicepolygamy.
(30:06):
So a bunch of people who werepracticing polygamists got saved
by Jesus. And
Cameron (30:13):
What we do with our families?
Luke (30:14):
What do we do? What do we do? What do we do? Do do we
divorce, which Jesus says is notgood, and then just so I gotta
pick 1. 1?
And then What about the kids?What about the kids Yeah. And
the support and the and the andthe and the and the and so which
evil are we gonna choose? Whichwhich one's good, bad, what,
(30:38):
like, whatever. Like, in thisvery That
Cameron (30:40):
would make a great scenario for a Christian ethics
class to have a student writeon.
Luke (30:46):
Oh, yeah. Like, because that you know? But here but here
we are. Let's say that, like,okay. Anti abortion, anti death
penalty, someone is coming withintent to do harm to your
family.
If they successfully do harm toyour family, either severely or
(31:08):
death, that is evil. That iswrong. That is bad. You have the
ability to at least attempt tosuccessfully defend your family
from that evil, and it resultsin their death, which is not
great. We would prefer theylive.
(31:30):
Yep. You've got 2 things thatare not good, but we're gonna
have to choose one of them.
Cameron (31:37):
Mhmm.
Luke (31:38):
And I don't think it's inconsistent to say that you
would prefer I I think the onewhere the person who is
intending to chose to enact harmand danger, the consequence of
(31:59):
that is what they reap, whatthey sowed in that moment. Yes.
Cameron (32:04):
Mhmm.
Luke (32:04):
I think that is a lesser evil than the other.
Cameron (32:08):
Right. I do too.
Luke (32:10):
And that's that's why I would choose it because there is
no choice in that moment. Evilis about to happen. Yeah. What
do I do with that evil?
Cameron (32:18):
Yep.
Luke (32:21):
Right. The problem with the death penalty is is that for
the most part, that evil is nolonger a threat
Cameron (32:32):
because it's
Luke (32:33):
it's not gonna they're not causing harm Yeah. To general
public, too. And we can talkabout the ship of Theseus and
all that, too. Like, are we evenactually exacting punishment on
the person who committed thecrime if it's x amount of years
(32:55):
really removed and all of thatphilosophical question. But, I
think it's different.
Cameron (33:03):
I do too. I think there's something in the
position that upholds protectionof the innocent.
Luke (33:14):
Mhmm.
Cameron (33:15):
Now they're not in like, a death penalty case,
you're not necessarily talkingabout the protection of the
innocent. No. Right? They're notinnocent.
Luke (33:24):
We're talking of, supposedly, we're talking about
justice.
Cameron (33:28):
Right. Right. Which so the projection of the innocent,
like, the the unborn child inthe womb of its mother or my
kids or my wife, you know, in asituation like that. So I think
there is that added dynamic toit as well that there is a that
(33:52):
there is a righteous componentof the protection of those who
cannot, at least in some cases,protect themselves.
Luke (33:59):
Yep. Yeah.
Cameron (34:02):
So yeah. But even even in that, you know, like, I I
don't anticipate. I don't inwell, I told people that I
wouldn't be I wouldn't bepreaching my own personal
political ideology, and so Iwon't be preaching that. Even
though you may be you may mightgo to my church and you're
(34:23):
watching this now and you'reRight. Saying, well But I I
don't think anyone It would befoolish, I think, for anyone to
think that I don't have my ownpersonal political perspectives.
Correct. But, it's not my job orcalling or responsibility to
preach my perspectives. Mhmm.It's my job to preach the word.
(34:44):
Mhmm.
And what will some of thosepositions are in your are in the
word. Yeah. I I I get it. But aswe were talking even before the
cameras were rolling, it's alittle bit more nuanced than
just like, this is what theBible says on this. So there.
Right. Right. It's it's a it's amore nuanced conversation,
(35:05):
position, discussion then Yeah.Can really not even that we can
easily have in the time frame.It's not even about the time
frame.
Luke (35:13):
Mhmm.
Cameron (35:13):
As much as it is about the environment of interaction
and dialogue. Yeah. I'm I'm justtalking to them. Right. On
Wednesday nights, when we haveour bible study, we're able to
sit with people and and dealwith some extraordinarily
nuanced topics.
Yeah. Human sexuality, aprotestant evangelical, whatever
you wanna do, call it, like,response to certain Catholic
(35:37):
doctrines. Yeah. Whatever. Wecan sit down and have kind of a
face to face, you know, dialogueconversation slash teaching
slash study with these peopleand and really dive into some
fairly nuanced topics andsometimes come out being like,
yeah.
I think this is really clear whywe don't believe in the rapture.
Luke (36:01):
Sure. Yeah. Right?
Cameron (36:03):
And then other times, come out being like a it's not
that simple. Like a, why doCatholics pray? Why do Catholics
ask the saints to pray for them?Yes. Which I don't think is
something that I think we saidit last week.
We did. But I don't think thatthey got it.
Luke (36:24):
Really?
Cameron (36:25):
I think I I think some of them still think that prayers
are offered to the saints.
Luke (36:38):
Like, saints so and so, please do this for me.
Cameron (36:41):
Yes.
Luke (36:42):
Yeah. Rather than what they
Cameron (36:44):
Our father in heaven. Right. You know? So they're not
praying to God. I'm praying toSaint Michael.
Right.
Luke (36:50):
Right.
Cameron (36:50):
No. No. No. No. No.
You're not praying to SaintMichael. Right. You're asking
Saint Michael to pray for you.
Luke (36:57):
Right.
Cameron (36:59):
Like I would be asking you to pray for me.
Luke (37:01):
Mhmm.
Cameron (37:03):
I I think that some of them were confused on that.
Luke (37:07):
Yeah. That's fair.
Cameron (37:10):
Yeah. So
Luke (37:10):
They may have been. If you're listening and you were
like, oh, yeah. We were confusedon that. Let us know.
Cameron (37:16):
Because we just clarified it for you.
Luke (37:18):
Oh, yeah.
Cameron (37:21):
But, anyway, yeah, I enjoyed the Wednesday night
conversations
Luke (37:24):
Mhmm.
Cameron (37:25):
There, with that series. Wasn't crazy about the
Sunday morning series, but,trust that God uses those things
that I'm even that I'm notreally crazy about Yeah. To
speak truth into people's heartsand lives. It certainly was an
(37:49):
interesting one. It was a it wasan interesting series.
Yeah. Lots of conversation, lotsof comments, lots of lots of,
feedback Mhmm. On it.
Luke (38:01):
Yeah.
Cameron (38:01):
So,
Luke (38:04):
yeah. I was surprised I didn't get more comments on the
one I did about the problem ofevil.
Cameron (38:16):
Where was there a part of it that you expected to get
more, like, feedback or commentsor questions or push back on?
Luke (38:26):
Oh, I guess that's a good question. I don't really know. I
don't know that where I wouldhave gotten more I don't know
where I would have gotten more.I think I was expecting some
people to want to come up andmake it simpler. Mhmm.
To say, like, well, you shouldhave just said, you
Cameron (38:43):
know,
Luke (38:43):
this or something like that. Because I tried to kind of
avoid some of the simplisticsimplistic answers or the
simplistic theodysies. Mhmm. SoI didn't I didn't wanna portray
a certain theodysy as morestrong than I think it actually
is. Mhmm.
Because I I I'm of thepersuasion that the Bible
doesn't really offer a theodicyYeah. In the most strictest of
(39:08):
senses.
Cameron (39:09):
Not really. No.
Luke (39:10):
And so I was pretty soft in my, like, delivery of the 2
theodysseys I offered. Mhmm.Because because I think the
Bible's pretty soft on answeringthat question.
Cameron (39:24):
On why? Yeah. Yeah.
Luke (39:26):
So specifically answering that question why. So I but I
find that a lot of people still,particularly people who are
interested and familiar of thetopic, are much more like just
like, well, this is the answer.Mhmm. And I'm kind of you know?
So I always think I wasexpecting a little bit of that.
Cameron (39:47):
Mhmm. So Mhmm. Yeah. Okay. Well, that's kind of our
reflection.
Yeah. A little bit on, I guess,both that series, the asking for
a friend series, but also someof the stuff that we began to
talk about. We didn't reallyeven begin to talk about that
(40:08):
yesterday, but No. It's in thesame realm.
Luke (40:10):
Yeah. Did you wanna talk any more about, like, why you
weren't a super fan of theSunday mornings? I just
Cameron (40:22):
I Yeah. I I feel it feels to me to be, like, more
emotional than it does, like oneparticular thing that I can put
my finger on. Mhmm. I don't, Ifelt like in some ways
obviously, there were questionsthat were posed that were asked,
and so it wasn't like we weremanufacturing topics or
(40:44):
questions or anything like that.They were important enough to
some people
Luke (40:48):
Yep.
Cameron (40:49):
To ask them, but in some ways, I felt like we were
it felt just really disjointedMhmm. Week to week.
Luke (40:59):
Yeah. Definitely.
Cameron (41:01):
And it felt a little bit manufactured in terms of
like its cohesiveness or itsapplicability to the body. Mhmm.
And so I I just kinda felt like,it may just be how I like my my
(41:32):
preference in preaching is to bebe a little bit more expository
than topical, which isinteresting because like for the
next 6 months, we're pretty muchall
Luke (41:47):
Topical.
Cameron (41:48):
Pretty much. Not entirely, but
Luke (41:51):
Not entirely, but we we got after this forgiveness after
the talking point series?
Cameron (41:58):
Yes. Yeah? Uh-huh.
Luke (42:00):
Which you'll hit out of the park.
Cameron (42:02):
Yeah. I got a lot on that. Yeah. And the scripture
has a lot
Luke (42:07):
It does.
Cameron (42:08):
On that. Mhmm.
Luke (42:10):
Political one is a little bit more thematic.
Cameron (42:14):
Yes.
Luke (42:15):
Deals with, like, a broader theological application
rather than 1 or 2 verses.
Cameron (42:20):
Correct. With, I think, the exception of this week well,
I don't even wanna say it's anexception, but this coming
weekend
Luke (42:28):
Mhmm.
Cameron (42:29):
Where my point really is to say, okay, if we are
citizens of heaven Yep. And,like, the the way in which both
the gospels and Paul talks aboutthat kingdom. It's it's the
kingdom of Jesus. Right? You putthe gospels and like the kingdom
(42:51):
is here.
The kingdom is nearer now.Repent and believe. Mhmm. And
then particularly in the gospelof Matthew, his like the
recording of Jesus saying thekingdom of heaven is like, the
kingdom of heaven is like, thekingdom of heaven is like. So we
(43:14):
are citizens of that kingdom
Luke (43:16):
Mhmm.
Cameron (43:17):
And Jesus rules that kingdom.
Luke (43:20):
Yeah.
Cameron (43:20):
And we are our identity is rooted in that, not in our
Americanism.
Luke (43:27):
Mhmm.
Cameron (43:29):
So if we are citizens of a different kingdom and Jesus
rules that kingdom and Jesustalked about what that kingdom
is like Yep. It's important forus, I think, to understand what
was important to Jesus in thatkingdom so that we can make it
important in our lives.
Luke (43:45):
Yeah.
Cameron (43:45):
And then let that what's important to Jesus and
what's important to his kingdom.Mhmm. Let those things guide our
political positions,perspectives, persuasions Yeah.
And purpose.
Luke (44:00):
Yeah. Mhmm.
Cameron (44:02):
So I think the problem this week is gonna be having so
many examples in scripture ofJesus talking about the kingdom
of heaven is like Mhmm. Thatit's gonna be difficult to
choose
Luke (44:16):
Which ones?
Cameron (44:17):
Which ones Yeah. Without seemingly saying, well,
this one's not as importantbecause we're not gonna talk as
much about it, but this one'smore important, which is not the
case. But we're just like
Luke (44:29):
it is I think as I've been thinking about, like, the
series, which, like I think,like, anytime this question
comes up, I find the mostdifficult part to get people to
grasp is that the Bible has noconception, representative
(44:55):
government. And you read it in1st service when you read out of
2nd Timothy. I'm like, yeah.That is written about a
monarchy. Mhmm.
About, like, a, emperor who, canbe crazy, because they were all
(45:17):
genetically inbred and were hadmental illnesses, and he made
his horse a general and thenburnt down part of Rome and
blamed it on the Christians.Like, Nero was nuts. Like and so
Paul's saying, you know, prayfor Nero. Yeah. Because because
brother needs the prayer.
Right. And just pray that wewould live peaceably. Like, you
(45:40):
can hear that.
Cameron (45:41):
Yeah.
Luke (45:41):
It because there's not much control given to Christians
in their context when those whenthe when the Bible is written.
Right. Except for the control inwhich God has over the rulers of
this world. And it's we live ina very different Right. Where
we're encouraged to vote, toparticipate, make our voice
(46:03):
known, and affect some sort ofcontrol or effect on the outcome
of our self rule government,however we want to talk about
it.
And that is such a big jump. Areyou gonna talk about that at all
in the in your sermons or like
Cameron (46:26):
Yes. I will talk about that some. Yeah. Yeah. When we
like, it'll either be in number3 or number 4, about how what is
the best way or what are not theeven the best way.
What are some of the options forChristians to faithfully engage
(46:51):
in the current political, in thecurrent political landscape.
Yeah. Yeah. So
Luke (47:02):
Do I look forward to it?
Cameron (47:06):
Yeah. So I it wasn't really clear to me how I was
gonna lay out the series untilthis past week. Yeah. And then
it all kind of like, okay. Yeah.
That's the that's the route togo, or that's a route to go.
Yeah. It's not the right one,but Yeah. Or v one. V one.
It's a one. It's a one. Yes.
Luke (47:28):
Yeah. A one steak sauce.
Cameron (47:31):
Which you should never, ever, ever put a sauce on steak,
by the way. We'll do a wholeepisode about that. If you're
putting steak sauce on yoursteak, we need to have a
Luke (47:40):
talk. Yeah. It wasn't seasoned correctly.
Cameron (47:43):
Or cooked well.
Luke (47:45):
Right. Yeah. Yeah. Don't don't order a well done steak
and then put sauce on it.
Cameron (47:52):
Brad Swanson, we're talking to you.
Luke (47:54):
Yeah, Brad. Alright. Well, that's probably enough for 1
Cameron (48:00):
It is. Episode. Yes. Thanks for listening as always.
You can send in your questions,comments, whatever to our text
line, 716-201-0507, Or did I getthat right?
Luke (48:12):
Yeah. You got it.
Cameron (48:13):
Okay. Or comment here on the if you're watching on
YouTube, comment here. If you'relistening, send this episode to
someone. Yeah. Share it.
Like it. Subscribe. Write
Luke (48:23):
a review.
Cameron (48:24):
Write a review.
Luke (48:25):
Yeah.
Cameron (48:25):
It's helpful for us.
Luke (48:26):
Yeah.
Cameron (48:28):
It'd be awesome to hit 200 subscribers by the end of
the year. Yeah. Maybe, like, 70ish more. Yep. Be great.
So share it with some people.Encourage them to, subscribe.
That'd be great. And until nexttime. Bye.
Bye.
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