April 14, 2025 • 43 mins
Why is there so much resistance to the practice of sabbath even from Christians? Why is it so hard to practice? This week Pastors Cameron and Luke discuss what has made sabbath become such a foreign thing to many christians.
- (00:00) -
- (00:00) - Welcome to the Uncut Podcast
- (05:29) - The Challenge of Sabbath
- (12:33) - Why Sabbath Makes Us Uncomfortable
- (23:34) - Cultural Influences on Sabbath
- (27:26) - The Importance of God's Presence
- (33:25) - Transitioning into Sabbath
- (39:44) - Practical Approaches to Sabbath
- (42:32) - Is Sabbath Still a Commandment?
Click here to watch a video of this episode.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Luke (00:05):
Welcome to the uncut podcast. I'm pastor Luke.
Cameron (00:09):
I'm pastor Cameron.
Luke (00:10):
And this is the uncut podcast where we have honest
uncut conversations about faith,life, and ministry. Back with
another episode
Cameron (00:20):
of talking fast and not too slow.
Luke (00:23):
Talking fast, not too slow. We're gonna be talking
about Sabbath today.
Cameron (00:27):
Quickly.
Luke (00:28):
Quickly. I feel like that's a little bit of the
antithesis of it. Less. Yeah. Sowe kind of kicked off here last
week on the podcast, but thenalso in their sermon series
about Sabbath.
And maybe let's start with youwere having we were beginning to
have a conversation yesterday,Cam, where you were kind of
(00:50):
preparing for last night's classwhere we talked about Sabbath,
and you just had this senseMhmm. That Sabbath was going to
be the very difficult practiceYes. For our church to actually
follow, more than more so thanprayer.
Cameron (01:06):
More more so than prayer. Yeah. I and I maybe I
didn't really anticipate this asI was as we were talking about
and planning the series for theyear. But as I've been reading
in Sabbath material, preparingfor my times to preach in the
(01:28):
Sabbath series, then alsogetting a better understanding
even in my own self on Sabbathis and its purpose, it seems
really clear to me that there isnot as much even cultural,
there's not as much culturalobstacles to prayer as there is
(01:52):
cultural obstacles to Sabbath.Yeah.
It is something that which is II'm I'm wondering if that this
is this is why we that thechurch has such a difficult time
taking Sabbath seriously, isbecause unlike other areas,
(02:12):
unlike other spiritualpractices, we have not really
been formed culturally in theantithesis of prayer. Mm-mm. But
we have been formed culturallyin the antithesis of Sabbath.
Luke (02:32):
Yeah. Like, what's the opposite of prayer? Not prayer.
Not prayer. But what's theopposite of Sabbath?
Literally, whole culture.
Cameron (02:40):
Our whole culture. Yep. Busy, hurried, frantic, over
consumption, never stopping,getting our identity from the
things that we do Mhmm. From ourwork, thinking that more is
(03:00):
better, embracing the grind Yep.Influencer life.
Oh, yeah. You know? Mhmm. And soit is no wonder that we come
into a conversation aboutSabbath in the church, and
everyone kind of snickers aboutit, as if it's like the thing
that we talk about because wehave to, but it's not the thing
(03:24):
that we talk about because we'reeager to pursue likeness of
Jesus Mhmm. In Sabbath.
Yeah. And for me, that I I reada sentence yesterday in one of
the books that we're using forour Wednesday night Bible study,
and it was essentially, it said,you know, that if you want to be
(03:49):
a follower of Jesus Mhmm. If youwant to apprentice in the way of
Jesus, you have to do the thingsthat Jesus did. Yeah. And Jesus
Sabbathed.
And so there's not really a wayfor us to conceptualize of a
desire to follow Jesus, but onlya desire to follow him in
(04:12):
certain areas of his life, orministry, or whatever. So we
have to make the decision as towhether or not we're going to
allow the culture to form usMhmm. Or we are going to allow
the life and practice of Jesusand the words of scripture to
form us. And that requires ahuge amount of crucifixion of
(04:39):
self to do that. That is pickingup your cross.
That is dying to yourself. Mhmm.And dying to the formation of
the culture within you. So,yeah, I I just think that it is
going to be a it's going to bereally difficult for people.
Mhmm.
And we're gonna have to callthem to a radical, really, a
(05:04):
radical version
Luke (05:07):
Mhmm.
Cameron (05:07):
Of discipleship to Jesus in order for this to be.
Luke (05:13):
Yeah. It needs to be practiced Yeah. And integrated.
Mhmm. Why I'm noticing thattalking about Sabbath makes
people uncomfortable.
Are you sensing that? Yes. Whydo you think that is?
Cameron (05:35):
Well, that's a good question. I don't I don't really
know.
Luke (05:40):
Yeah.
Cameron (05:43):
Although, I think I do.
Luke (05:45):
Okay.
Cameron (05:45):
You know, I I mean, I
Luke (05:47):
You've got, like, maybe a guess, but you're not like
positive.
Cameron (05:50):
Sure. Well, there's like this I have this big meta
narrative answer to it. Mhmm.And then, have like the more
practical, I'm not sure. Becauseeven like in our Bible study
last night Mhmm.
Where we had we we probably hadhalf as many people.
Luke (06:08):
Yes. We had less people.
Cameron (06:11):
Not not even by like a few here and there. Right.
Luke (06:13):
Like
Cameron (06:13):
half as many. Mhmm.
Luke (06:15):
Came to our Sabbath Sabbath study. Just came to our
prayer study. Right. And itmight have just been that it was
nice out yesterday, but I doubtit. Yeah.
Cameron (06:24):
And that could be just whatever. Yeah. Could be a
fluke. I I I don't think it is.Yeah.
I think that there I think thatwe live in many ways. We we we
live according to kingdomvalues.
Luke (06:45):
Mhmm.
Cameron (06:46):
That aren't of like, in our work life rhythm, the
rhythms of our life, we do notlive according to the kingdom of
heaven type of values. Mhmm. Andwe we do really, really discern
like, really, decidedly liveaccording to the values of this
world, the kingdom of thisworld, which is work harder
Luke (07:09):
Mhmm.
Cameron (07:10):
Do more, produce more, build it high. Yep. Don't rest.
Be on. Don't be lazy.
Yeah. Lock in. Yep. Let's go.Yep.
And that is glorified. Yeah.It's not even it's not just
tolerated. Mhmm. It's glorified.
Luke (07:29):
Yeah. That was one of the points that resonated with me
from the video teaching fromlast night.
Cameron (07:34):
Mhmm.
Luke (07:34):
Was, I can't remember exactly how it was said, but it
was something like, oh, mostpeople don't go around
celebrating and saying, oh,guess how many lies I told this
week? Right. But we will goaround and brag, ugh, like
humble brag. Right? I put insixty hours of work this week,
you know?
Cameron (07:55):
For ten days in a row, haven't had a day off. Yeah.
Anything like that. Right. Yeah.
And so it like, it it's givingRomans two for me. How would I
say that? It's giving Romanstwo, where Paul is like, or
(08:15):
maybe it's the end of Romansone. I think it's the end of
Romans one, where he'sessentially saying like,
hardness of heart Mhmm. Darknessof heart increases as we find
ourselves celebrating in thewickedness of others.
Yeah. Mhmm. And for me, it feelsa little bit like the culture of
(08:36):
work in busyness, and antiSabbath is like this
glorification Mhmm. Of what Godhas called sin.
Luke (08:46):
Yeah.
Cameron (08:48):
And I think that there is a there's an intrinsic
especially for those who knowJesus, who are following Jesus,
who have the Holy Spirit,there's an internal conviction
Mhmm. Of that reality when youbegin to talk about Sabbath,
that if they're not ready tosurrender that portion of their
(09:11):
life, what do what do we what dowe do when we're not ready to
surrender a portion of our lifethat's not surrendered to God,
as we we run from it.
Luke (09:18):
Mhmm.
Cameron (09:19):
We we avoid the instances where we're going to
come under conviction. Mhmm. SoI I think that people are gonna
run from this. And and byrunning, I mean, I I don't
necessarily think that our likeSunday morning services are
gonna be any smaller when we'repreaching on it, but I think
(09:41):
we're gonna get a sense of thepeople's tuning out.
Luke (09:45):
Yeah. Right. It's like, how are we going well, that's
really nice for someone whothat's the that's the thing that
I think is gonna be the bigthing is is there's gonna be a
lot of internal justification.Not like I think there's like a
couple different pockets. Ithink some people are really
(10:06):
nervous when we talk aboutSabbath because their vision of
Sabbath is not very life giving.
Like, maybe what they grew upwith, or what their vision of a
really conservative practice ofSabbath looks like, and it's
like, we were talking tosomebody, and they were like,
well, you know, you can't doanything that's not associated
(10:27):
with God. You can't play gameson Sabbath. You have to you can
play like A Bible game. Biblemonopoly. Bible monopoly or
something like that.
You know? And so, like, that'snot a very like, I don't like
Monopoly to begin with. I don'tknow that I'm gonna like Bible
Monopoly much more.
Cameron (10:45):
I'm Joshua.
Luke (10:49):
Sure. You just wanna walk around this board, Make all the
all the tenets small I'm gonna
Cameron (10:54):
kill everyone. Just kill everyone that's in my way.
Luke (10:58):
Just don't pick Job. He wouldn't do well enough.
Cameron (11:02):
No, he would not.
Luke (11:04):
So, like, that's not a very compelling version vision
of Sabbath. So I still I thinksome people have this, that
doesn't sound good. It doesn'tsound beautiful.
Cameron (11:16):
No. And one of the things that I said last night
excuse me. One of the thingsthat I said last night, and I I
think it's increasingly true,and it just kind of came to me.
I wasn't planning to say it. Itjust kinda came to me as we were
talking about it last night inBible study.
It's like there's this there'sthis counter formational way
Mhmm. That we are thinking aboutlife and work and everything,
(11:39):
and then and Sabbath is thecounter formation against the
culture. Yep. But there'sagainst the culture in general,
but I also think there's thisstream of counter formation that
needs to happen againstoppressive, legalistic,
ritualistic, religious systems,and upbringings that have given
(12:01):
us that twisted view of Sabbath.Mhmm.
And that have not allowed us tosee it in a life giving, joy
filled, beautiful way
Luke (12:10):
Right.
Cameron (12:11):
That that makes it the central portion, the central
part of someone's week, orsomeone desires
Luke (12:20):
Yeah.
Cameron (12:21):
To to pursue Sabbath because of how beautiful it is.
Right.
Luke (12:25):
It's either a drudgery, or I think the other component is
that there's too many obstaclesto it. Or at least that becomes
the justification. Like, I'm I'manticipating a lot of people
having this conversation withthemselves of like, oh, well,
it's easy for pastor Luke to saythat he needs the Sabbath
(12:47):
because he doesn't have any
Cameron (12:48):
kids. Mhmm.
Luke (12:49):
Or, you know, whatever. Like, I'm not in a season of
life where I can Sabbath. I haveto do x, y, and z, and so
Sabbath is just simply a thing Ican't do because I've got kids,
or I've got Yep. And you hadsomething to say about that last
night.
Cameron (13:04):
Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, I've got as many reasons to not
Sabbath as anyone. You do. Youyou you be busy.
I'd be busy. I'd be busy. I gota couple different jobs. I have
a big family.
Luke (13:22):
Mhmm.
Cameron (13:23):
And the jobs that I do have tend to be on the more
demanding side. Mhmm. And I'mnot saying I'm killing it,
Sabbath. I'm just saying, I whatI'm saying is, I get it as much
as anyone gets it, that Sabbathis hard, especially when you
have kids. But what I think whatI what I think the problem with
(13:46):
that mindset is is that we are,it's actually a problem with us
Mhmm.
Internally with our heart, inthe way that we view the role of
parenting. Mhmm. We if we if weview parenting as the job that
we have, which I understand, itis hard work. It is for some
(14:13):
people, it is their job. It's mywife's.
She stays at home. Yeah.Parenting is her job. Mhmm. But
if we view it strictly as a job,then we will always view our
kids as something that we mustsabbath from Yeah.
Rather than invite them into.Mhmm. And so our Sabbath is not
(14:40):
Sabbath is never, even inscripture, was never something
that an individual personobserved or celebrated on their
own. Mhmm. They celebrated itwithin their community.
Mhmm. And the most intimate formof community is your family, and
so Sabbath must be somethingthat we create as a rhythm and a
(15:03):
celebration with our family.Mhmm. Our kids included, they
must be welcomed into theSabbath rhythm. We must create
rhythms of Sabbath that areappropriate and contextual for
them as well, so that they beginto understand its place in the
life of believers early.
Luke (15:22):
Yeah.
Cameron (15:23):
Which which goes to the point that we kind of talked
about again last night aboutSabbath intentionality.
Luke (15:31):
Yep. Yeah. Well, because that's the I think Sabbath, as
we're talking about, I thinkpeople get these different
pictures. You get people who arethinking of Sabbath as this
like, you know, you gotta besitting in a pew all day and
can't do anything that's not Godrelated. I think people who get
(15:51):
a picture of it as, like, it isa vacation day.
Right? It's like like, theythink of it like they want it to
be like they're going to aresort. They get to just like,
do nothing. Or some people justthink of it as like, well, I
have days off Mhmm. Where I dothings, you know, without a
(16:12):
whole lot of intention to it.
I shared personally that one ofthe things that I've had to
wrestle with is my owntechnology use. I have found
that if I enter into a Sabbath,and I don't have intentionality
around what I'm going to doduring that day, I will
gravitate towards the lowestcommon denominator, and then I
(16:34):
will not feel rested andrestored. Yep. I will spend time
watching videos. I will spendtime just like doing things
around the house, and then I getto the end of the day, and I was
like, yeah, okay.
That was like a day off. Mhmm.But did I do anything that was
like, restorative to my soul?Yeah. Did I go outside and touch
(16:55):
grass?
Like Right. Did I, you know, didI spend time with friends or
family in a meaningful andconnecting way, or did I just
kinda like, I didn't really haveany plans, so I just spent it
all by myself. Mhmm. And I feela little bit more disconnected
at the end of the day thanrestored. Like Yeah.
There there has to be someintentionality to it.
Cameron (17:15):
Right. Right. And and that becomes even more it
becomes more even moreconcentrated. Your
intentionality becomes moreconcentrated when you have
family, when you have kids. Thatwas kind of the point that I was
getting to, was that if you dono if there's no sense of
(17:39):
planning towards the SabbathMhmm.
The day before, or even theweek, the days before Yeah. Then
when you get there, you justfall into the lowest common
denominator of like, you you youlike screech into Sabbath by the
skin of your
Luke (17:53):
Yep.
Cameron (17:53):
Emotional, physical, mental teeth, and then you fall
apart, and you end up just beinglike lazy. Sabbath is not
laziness.
Luke (18:06):
Yeah. I think that's the thing that is kind of hard to
get articulated, is that I thinkwe're just like, well, Sabbath
means I don't do anything. Andin some regard, it does kind of
mean that.
Cameron (18:18):
It means you stop doing some things, but it doesn't mean
you do you don't do anything.
Luke (18:23):
Right. It's not like a day you just sit there.
Cameron (18:25):
Right.
Luke (18:26):
Become a bump on a log. Right. Or like, you know, a
lizard next to the pool. Like,you're you've gotta be doing
something.
Cameron (18:33):
Yeah. And and some of that some of that something
you're doing is the physical wewe tend to think that like,
laying down for physical rest orsomething is doing nothing.
Luke (18:44):
Yeah.
Cameron (18:47):
Because we're formed, our culture forms us, that
movement means something, you'redoing something. Yeah. Rest
isn't something that you do.Right. It's something that you
do when you're not doinganything else.
Luke (19:00):
Mhmm.
Cameron (19:01):
Rest is a book If we view rest as a proactive
activity that we're involvingourselves in, like, what are you
doing tomorrow? Oh, I'm I'm liketaking a nap. Like, that's my
proactive, intentional
Luke (19:14):
Mhmm.
Cameron (19:14):
Plan for restfulness, to experience the gift of God of
rest. That's doing something.It's not laziness. Yep. Laziness
is really a first to heartattitude.
But anyway
Luke (19:30):
But my I had a theology professor, and he loved to it is
clever, but he said it over andover and over again. He's just
like, look, you need to learn tonot just have recreation, but
recreation.
Cameron (19:47):
Okay. Sounds like a Bible professor.
Luke (19:52):
Yeah. He totally was. But like, his point there is that,
like, do something that'sbeautiful, something that, like,
is kind of enjoying a good giftof the Lord that is doing
something that's creative,something that's productive,
something that's, you know, likelike I don't know. Like, for me,
(20:13):
like, you know, if I'm gonnaSabbath, like, watching, like, a
Netflix show is fine, I think.For me, personally, like other
people, you're gonna have tomake their own judgment, but I
can't watch more than twoepisodes of a show.
Mhmm. Like, if it's going downinto, like, binge land, it is
(20:35):
becoming not good for my soul.It is my own judgment of that.
And I need to read something,and I need to be outside, and I
need to connect with people.Those are things that I need to
do that are good for my soul ina sense.
I don't know how else to kind ofget at that and help people
(20:55):
capture a vision of what's lifelife giving. I think, thinking
about Sabbaths and saying whatwould be life giving more than
what would be quote unquoterestful. I feel like that might
be the better question forpeople.
Cameron (21:08):
Mhmm.
Luke (21:09):
Because I think our idea of restful is skewed.
Cameron (21:12):
Yeah. And a part of it too, is that we are dealing with
a short amount of time. Yeah.Against a huge cultural
influence in people's lives.Mhmm.
And so I have even beenquestioning, and it was a little
bit even with the prayer series.Mhmm. In the same way, there
wasn't a whole lot of practical.Right. We weren't like helping
(21:35):
people to create prayerpractices as much as we were
trying to stir the heart tofaith in prayer.
Mhmm. Like, that's what Iwanted. Like, I wanna stir
people's hearts. I think thatthat is what moves them to this
place of desiring the way ofJesus. Mhmm.
Following after the way ofJesus. Yep. And and if we can we
(21:56):
can get them following after theway of Jesus, they begin to
hunger, and thirst, and seek,and find, and so a little bit of
that, I feel attention as apreacher, and as a pastor to
say, how much of this becausewhat everyone wants to know with
Sabbath is the practical things.Well, what can I do and not do?
Luke (22:15):
Yeah. Right.
Cameron (22:17):
But that kind of just displays this legalistic Mhmm.
Duty bound way of thinkingabout, talking about the Sabbath
that is wrapped up in a world ofperformance, pleasure Yep. And
production, and let me let meget this Sabbath thing over, so
(22:40):
I can get back to the moreimportant thing. And that's what
troubles me the most. And sothat's why I think, that's why
I'm, I I don't wanna say I'mworried about if this is gonna
quote unquote take.
Luke (22:52):
Mhmm.
Cameron (22:53):
I'm I'm I am I think what I would say is, I'm
becoming more sober minded Yeah.About the monster of cultural
formation that our people areunder. It's huge. Yeah. And the
and the necessity of a move ofGod Mhmm.
(23:15):
To change it. Yeah. Like, in Iheard a pastor say the other day
in response to someone talkingabout the church fighting the
culture war.
Luke (23:28):
Oh, yeah.
Cameron (23:29):
Yeah. And he said, we are not fighting the culture
war, we have lost. Have lost theculture war. Yeah. And I'm I'm
beginning to agree with that,that we have lost the culture
war, and so fighting it in thetraditional sense that we have
been
Luke (23:49):
Mhmm.
Cameron (23:50):
Fighting it, I think is a fool's errand. And so, to kind
of reorient where we are puttingnow our effort Mhmm. In light of
the culture war into really,like, asking the Lord in prayer.
(24:11):
Yeah. Contending for our Yeah.
World in prayer to say, Lord,without a miraculous
intervention, we're we're done.Barna I read a Barna article
from 2023 that said, without athe that the church in the
(24:36):
Western world is now in a stateof irreversible decline without
a move of God and a radical newform of discipleship. Mhmm.
Without a radical new form ofdiscipleship, and a Barna, the
research people, the statspeople
Luke (24:55):
The stats
Cameron (24:56):
people. The stats people, the numbers people were
like, the numbers are clear,irreversible decline unless God
moves. Mhmm. We are not we arelosing more Christians than we
are making.
Luke (25:12):
Yep. It's been that way for a while. Right. And it's
just becoming more and moreclear.
Cameron (25:17):
More and more, like, yeah, more and more aware.
Luke (25:21):
Yeah. We don't we've for a while now, at least, I'm pretty
sure, we've not been plantingenough new churches to
counteract the amount ofchurches that close each year.
Right.
Cameron (25:30):
Yeah. Or just a month or or just the number of people
who are disillusioned withfaith, walking away from faith,
dying, and we're not making Imean, I know it sounds like
we're not talking aboutreplacement cost here, but it's
kind of like the, you know,we're not replacing dying saints
with new That's
Luke (25:49):
what Catholics aren't. Right. Catholics aren't
struggling in that regard. But,yeah, I I think I am inclined to
also agree with that. I thinkthe pockets like, if you're like
I think the pockets of peoplewho would say they're Christians
that are fighting the culturewar
Cameron (26:10):
Mhmm.
Luke (26:11):
I would say that my concern with that is that
whenever I see somebody overthere that's like, ugh, waving a
little Christian flag and sayingthat they're fighting the
culture war, all the time, but asignificant amount of the time,
it's losing more and moreresemblance with Christ Yep. And
any resemblance to the
Cameron (26:31):
fruits of the spirit. Right. Which is a loss. Which is
a loss. That's an l.
Luke (26:35):
Yeah. And so, like, I'm like, yeah, you might be over
there fighting for against, youknow, progressive sexuality or
something like that, but youlook nothing like Jesus while
doing it. Right. And that's aloss. Like, that's not Yeah.
Cameron (26:49):
And what is your form of fighting the culture where
you're sharing a few you'reyou're resharing a couple
incendiary posts on FacebookYeah. And you're calling that
fighting the culture war? LikeYeah. Give me a break, bro.
Like, just not it.
No. Not it at all. Yeah. So Isaid all that to say, regards to
(27:12):
Sabbath, we are up againstsomething that will not be fixed
by simply preaching a few goodsermons. Like, need God's
presence.
Mhmm. We need God's presencehere. We need Him to to
miraculously intervene on ourbehalf, to do what is impossible
(27:37):
to do Mhmm. In the culture. Sowould like, think, not to shift,
keeping it on Sabbath, butshifting a little bit, would
like to talk a little bit aboutthe boundaries of the Sabbath
(27:57):
day.
When does Sabbath start? Oh.When does Sabbath end? Because
as I was preparing for lastnight, and then over the last
like twenty four hours or so,just considering my own Sabbath
ritual
Luke (28:11):
Mhmm.
Cameron (28:12):
And considering what would what would change if I
went from like a Jewish dayMhmm. To a Roman day, which we
use And so just wondering yourthoughts on that conversation
that we had. Maybe tee it up foreveryone listening about Yeah.
Actually talking about.
Luke (28:31):
So if we're saying, okay, Sabbath is gonna be the
traditional twenty four hours ofstopping, of resting, of
recreating, and we're gonna dothat, We can do if I was to ask
kindergartner, when does the daystart? Mhmm. They would say, in
(28:55):
the morning, when I wake up,when I get out of bed. Right?
Like, that's the way weconceptualize our days.
We have for centuries at thispoint, largely. Now, when you
read the Old Testament or notthe Old Testament, the Bible,
and you read the New Testament,particularly when it gets to
(29:17):
Holy Week, and Christ dying onthe cross, and then Him being
buried for three days. A lot oftimes people come away saying,
he wasn't buried for three days.There's a little bit of
confusion around all of that.And the reason is because Jews,
(29:39):
ancient Jews, understood theirdays to start and end at
different times.
For them, the start and end of aday was sundown, not necessarily
sunup. So a, you know, sunsetis, what, around like 07:00 here
now, something like that? So ourday today would end at seven,
(30:02):
and the new day would start.
Cameron (30:03):
Yeah. Friday actually starts tonight.
Luke (30:07):
Friday starts tonight, around dinnertime, and that
would be the start of the newday. And so traditionally, when
still practice Sabbaths today,when they Shabbat, it starts on
Friday night at sundown, andthen it ends on Saturday night
(30:31):
at sundown. That's when theirdays it doesn't start and begin
at the end of the day. So thequestion you're asking then is,
does it make a difference in theway that we experience Sabbath
in our current culture if wesay, my Sabbath is gonna start
(30:51):
the next morning I wake up,versus starting the evening
before I start that full day?
Cameron (30:58):
Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. That's the question. That's
ultimately the question that I'masking.
Yeah. And I'm curious. I I I'mI'm curious to to practice that
myself to see if it might.Because I'm I have suspicions
that it will that it wouldchange things.
Luke (31:16):
Yeah. Well, traditionally, I think one of the things is is
that traditionally, if youchange that so traditional
Sabbath practice usually startswith a meal, a shared meal on
Friday night. And everyone comesto someone's house, usually the
(31:36):
matriarch and patriarch orwhatever. All the families are
gathering in these kind ofbigger family units. The kids
are coming home from the suburbsor whatever.
Everyone's coming home, and theygather together. It's sundown.
They have the meal. They lightthe Shabbat candles. They, like,
say some prayers, and then theyenjoy the meal.
(31:57):
They relax into the evening, andthen the next day is the rest of
their Sabbath. And they can dothey do what they're gonna do.
They go to temple, they do allof that stuff, And then rest,
taking naps. There there are oldancient Jewish documents that
highlight different practicesthat people can do on Sabbath,
(32:20):
and napping is one of them, sexwith your spouse is one of them.
There's a whole bunch of thingsthat can be done, or were
traditionally practiced on theSabbath.
But I think having that mealahead of time, so that you have
this community moment, andinstead of having that, like, in
(32:40):
the more American way, which islike Sunday dinner or Sunday,
like, late lunch, whereeveryone's running home and
they're having to, like, get themeal all ready and then come,
and that can sometimes be alittle crazy unless you're like
a crock pot master, which ismaybe like a thing. We need to
become better at crock pots topractice Sabbath better. But I
(33:02):
think there's something aboutstarting it that way, getting
some physical night rest, andthen starting your day already
partly into the rest and intothe Sabbath, rather than
crashing and burning at the endof the day, sleeping in and
waking up and saying, alright, Igotta bring some intentionality
(33:23):
to my Sabbath now.
Cameron (33:25):
Yeah. Yeah. I think part of it is like going to bed.
It's that shared it's all thosethings. Yeah.
It's all those things, but partof it for me, I feel is like
going to bed already in a rhythmof Sabbath. Mhmm. Like, it has
started, I go, like, just themental, emotional, physical,
(33:47):
spiritual load.
Luke (33:48):
Mhmm.
Cameron (33:49):
Has been lifted, and you start with a Sabbath meal,
and time with your family, or oror with your community, or
whoever it is. And then and thenyou you kind of enter into this
place of, like, reallymeaningful rest. So Yeah. And
(34:11):
then also, I feel like I feel alittle bit like there's less
pressure.
Luke (34:18):
Mhmm.
Cameron (34:20):
Because at the end of the day, at the end of my
Sabbath Mhmm. There's a portionof the day Mhmm. That now is,
you know, I
Luke (34:32):
You can reconnect. Can do whatever you want.
Cameron (34:35):
Do the work. I can, you know, enter lock in again, you
know, whatever the case may be.And so there's this sense of
like, yeah. I just I guess it itfeels different. Yeah.
It feels different. Don't knowwhat to say other than that.
Luke (34:55):
Well, I think too, it's like we're so conditioned for
our mornings to be wake up, go.And when we have our Sabbath
day, and our Sabbath day startsin the morning, it's really hard
to switch that rhythm off forsome of us. Mhmm. We're just
like, supposed to be going. AndI think that's hard.
Cameron (35:15):
Mhmm.
Luke (35:15):
And I think I think I think it just I think we need
more transitions Mhmm. Than wethink we do. Mhmm. Like, anybody
who, like, works with kids orhas kids knows that kids do not
go from point a to point b verysimply. Right?
(35:37):
Like, I'm curious. When you guysare taking your kids somewhere,
how big of a warning time do youhave to like, give for like,
getting the kids ready to getout the door to go somewhere?
Cameron (35:49):
Well, it depends. It depends on how much we how much
of like, how long we want toendure the chaos. So, all of our
kids are different. Some of themdon't do well with immediate
transitions or Right. Changes ofrhythm or schedule, and so they
need a little bit more notice.
Yeah. But for the most part,what I mean, what we try to do
(36:13):
is we try to do a bunch of thework that is required for us to
leave the house Mhmm. Withoutthem
Luke (36:21):
Knowing. Knowing. Because they're gonna get too
emotionally excited.
Cameron (36:24):
Yes. So, like we set the shoes out, we pack the bag,
we get the jackets, make sureall the jackets are hung up,
okay. They know they can just goget their jackets, they can get
their shoes. And then, dependingon the thing, you know, we're
like, alright, it's time to go,and we maybe give ourselves, you
know, five, eight, ten minutesto get to the car. Yeah.
(36:45):
So
Luke (36:45):
But you've still done like forty five minutes of prep. Oh.
Yeah.
Cameron (36:50):
Like Oh, yeah. The prep has been done. So we're just
taking it out of the hands ofthe kids.
Luke (36:56):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Cameron (36:57):
Because that is like, you give the prep to the kids,
it's like brushing your teethwhile eating an Oreo. Yeah.
Like, is. Where's your othershoe? Right.
Yeah. Just does not make anysense. Yep. There's no forward
progress made.
Luke (37:12):
That is some parenting wisdom there. Because but that's
definitely like especially whenlike, we we were watching our
nephews the other week, and wewere going we needed to go
somewhere, and, like, you know,like, they weren't exactly super
excited about going to thisthing. And so we're like, oh,
shoot. We need to leave in twominutes. Like, okay, kids.
(37:35):
Let's go. And they're all justlike, oh, wait. I gotta put on
my shoe. I wanna change myoutfit. No.
No. No. And, like, they theyneeded that transition. And so,
like, I think as adults, weneglect giving ourselves, like,
transition moments Mhmm. In andout of things.
Cameron (37:51):
Mhmm.
Luke (37:51):
Like, I I don't have much of a commute. I haven't had much
of a commute, but now I reallydon't have much of a commute.
Cameron (38:00):
One of
Luke (38:01):
the things I miss about being in Chicago is a little bit
of the commute, as much asthat's kinda crazy for me to say
Mhmm. Because the commute inChicago to get to work was nuts.
But I would it took me an hourto get to work, even though I
only lived, like, two miles fromwork. Mhmm. But I had to get on
a bus.
I had to walk to the bus stop,get on a bus, get on the L, get
(38:22):
off the L, and walk a coupleblocks. And while I'm doing
that, I'm listening to anaudiobook. I'm listening to a
podcast, a sermon. I'm thinking,I'm reading, I'm doing
something, and that was how Istarted my day to get into work,
and it was how I ended my day toget home. Now, I live less than
a minute drive from the church.
Literally. That's a
Cameron (38:42):
minute, yeah.
Luke (38:44):
So I have like zero commute. I've kind of almost
start to I'm almost starting tofeel like I'm not ever actually
leaving home.
Cameron (38:51):
I bet you, honestly, your commute is so short. I bet
if we walked out of the frontdoor at the same time,
Luke (38:58):
Mhmm.
Cameron (38:59):
And I was like, I'm gonna jog to your house. That I
could jog to your house beforeyou could make it to your car.
Yeah. And do all those stopsigns and turns, the two turns
that
Luke (39:09):
you have to Yeah, the two turns.
Cameron (39:11):
I could be at your house about the same time, if
not quicker. Yeah. It's crazy.
Luke (39:14):
Just about. Yeah. Especially. Yeah. And so, it's I
don't have that commute.
I don't have that transitiontime anymore. And so, sometimes,
get home, and I'm just like, I'mstill trying to unwind from
having just been at my desk.Like, I need to go for a walk,
or I need something totransition. So I think having
Sabbath at the starting at theend of our traditional day, I
(39:39):
think, gives you a way totransition. Man, that was a
really long way to talk aboutall that, but Yeah.
Cameron (39:44):
Anyways. Yeah. No, I I agree. It's it is I'm I'm eager
to try that. I'm I'm gonna tryit this week.
Mhmm. So, what's today?Thursday, my Sabbath will start
tomorrow night, say around 7PMor so.
Luke (40:01):
Yeah. I think the part that I'm really interested, I
wanna do that too. I wanna dothe evening start and end, but I
also want to do something tomarket. Like, I to get a candle,
and I want to have some prayeror a meditation to do, and I'm
going to sit down, going tolight this candle, gonna read
(40:25):
this prayer, and that's thestart of Sabbath. And then like,
do the same thing to end it, sothat I'm not being so fuzzy.
Because like, if I don't startand end it in this very
practical demarcation, I'm moreapt to say, well, is today
really my Sabbath? Or like, youknow, well, I can know, and I
(40:48):
end up a whole bunch of thingsget added into the day that are
not Sabbath. Mhmm. So interestedto see what brings some
intentionality to that. Yeah.
Yep. If that will bring somemore intentionality in my heart
Heart
Cameron (41:01):
about it.
Luke (41:02):
Position towards As crazy as some people listening to this
might be thinking, like, is Lukebecoming an Orthodox Jew? I'm
not. But I think that's thosethings are important or helpful.
Cameron (41:13):
Yeah. Well, and listen, there there are practical I'm
asking practical questions aboutthat just even in my own life.
Like, if I do that Friday nightSabbath start Mhmm. Then there's
things that sometimes happen onSaturdays
Luke (41:28):
Mhmm.
Cameron (41:29):
That I have real questions about. Right. Like,
just I don't know about. Like,we have a men's breakfast here
Yes. That I lead.
Luke (41:37):
Yeah. Is that
Cameron (41:40):
Is that
Luke (41:40):
it? Yeah.
Cameron (41:43):
Are some of our kids have, like, dance activities on
Saturday.
Luke (41:47):
Yep.
Cameron (41:48):
And it usually is a little bit of a a little it's a
thing. It's a thing to getthere, and to get back, you
know? So I'm having thesequestions too. Yeah. And I don't
really know.
Yeah. Yeah. But, we're gonna I'mgonna Sabbath as I can, not
Sabbath as I can't to beginwith. Yep. And then just allow
(42:09):
God to form to form that in me.
Mhmm. Know?
Luke (42:14):
Alright. Well, if you have questions about what we've been
talking about with Sabbath, we'dlove to hear them in the
comments or in a message line orwhatever. We'd just be
interested to hear what yourreflections have been on this so
far. We've got more to talkabout for sure.
Cameron (42:30):
Yeah, we've got weeks. We've got weeks of Sabbath to
talk about.
Luke (42:33):
I think the next thing I want to talk about is Sabbath
still a tenth commandment?
Cameron (42:43):
Is it
Luke (42:43):
binding? Okay. Maybe to at least start.
Cameron (42:49):
Alright, let's do it. That's a good question. If
you're watching this on YouTube,let us know in the comments what
you think about that question.Yeah. And and we will catch you
on the next one.
Welcome to the uncut podcast. I'm pastor Luke.
Cameron (00:09):
I'm pastor Cameron.
Luke (00:10):
And this is the uncut podcast where we have honest
uncut conversations about faith,life, and ministry. Back with
another episode
Cameron (00:20):
of talking fast and not too slow.
Luke (00:23):
Talking fast, not too slow. We're gonna be talking
about Sabbath today.
Cameron (00:27):
Quickly.
Luke (00:28):
Quickly. I feel like that's a little bit of the
antithesis of it. Less. Yeah. Sowe kind of kicked off here last
week on the podcast, but thenalso in their sermon series
about Sabbath.
And maybe let's start with youwere having we were beginning to
have a conversation yesterday,Cam, where you were kind of
(00:50):
preparing for last night's classwhere we talked about Sabbath,
and you just had this senseMhmm. That Sabbath was going to
be the very difficult practiceYes. For our church to actually
follow, more than more so thanprayer.
Cameron (01:06):
More more so than prayer. Yeah. I and I maybe I
didn't really anticipate this asI was as we were talking about
and planning the series for theyear. But as I've been reading
in Sabbath material, preparingfor my times to preach in the
(01:28):
Sabbath series, then alsogetting a better understanding
even in my own self on Sabbathis and its purpose, it seems
really clear to me that there isnot as much even cultural,
there's not as much culturalobstacles to prayer as there is
(01:52):
cultural obstacles to Sabbath.Yeah.
It is something that which is II'm I'm wondering if that this
is this is why we that thechurch has such a difficult time
taking Sabbath seriously, isbecause unlike other areas,
(02:12):
unlike other spiritualpractices, we have not really
been formed culturally in theantithesis of prayer. Mm-mm. But
we have been formed culturallyin the antithesis of Sabbath.
Luke (02:32):
Yeah. Like, what's the opposite of prayer? Not prayer.
Not prayer. But what's theopposite of Sabbath?
Literally, whole culture.
Cameron (02:40):
Our whole culture. Yep. Busy, hurried, frantic, over
consumption, never stopping,getting our identity from the
things that we do Mhmm. From ourwork, thinking that more is
(03:00):
better, embracing the grind Yep.Influencer life.
Oh, yeah. You know? Mhmm. And soit is no wonder that we come
into a conversation aboutSabbath in the church, and
everyone kind of snickers aboutit, as if it's like the thing
that we talk about because wehave to, but it's not the thing
(03:24):
that we talk about because we'reeager to pursue likeness of
Jesus Mhmm. In Sabbath.
Yeah. And for me, that I I reada sentence yesterday in one of
the books that we're using forour Wednesday night Bible study,
and it was essentially, it said,you know, that if you want to be
(03:49):
a follower of Jesus Mhmm. If youwant to apprentice in the way of
Jesus, you have to do the thingsthat Jesus did. Yeah. And Jesus
Sabbathed.
And so there's not really a wayfor us to conceptualize of a
desire to follow Jesus, but onlya desire to follow him in
(04:12):
certain areas of his life, orministry, or whatever. So we
have to make the decision as towhether or not we're going to
allow the culture to form usMhmm. Or we are going to allow
the life and practice of Jesusand the words of scripture to
form us. And that requires ahuge amount of crucifixion of
(04:39):
self to do that. That is pickingup your cross.
That is dying to yourself. Mhmm.And dying to the formation of
the culture within you. So,yeah, I I just think that it is
going to be a it's going to bereally difficult for people.
Mhmm.
And we're gonna have to callthem to a radical, really, a
(05:04):
radical version
Luke (05:07):
Mhmm.
Cameron (05:07):
Of discipleship to Jesus in order for this to be.
Luke (05:13):
Yeah. It needs to be practiced Yeah. And integrated.
Mhmm. Why I'm noticing thattalking about Sabbath makes
people uncomfortable.
Are you sensing that? Yes. Whydo you think that is?
Cameron (05:35):
Well, that's a good question. I don't I don't really
know.
Luke (05:40):
Yeah.
Cameron (05:43):
Although, I think I do.
Luke (05:45):
Okay.
Cameron (05:45):
You know, I I mean, I
Luke (05:47):
You've got, like, maybe a guess, but you're not like
positive.
Cameron (05:50):
Sure. Well, there's like this I have this big meta
narrative answer to it. Mhmm.And then, have like the more
practical, I'm not sure. Becauseeven like in our Bible study
last night Mhmm.
Where we had we we probably hadhalf as many people.
Luke (06:08):
Yes. We had less people.
Cameron (06:11):
Not not even by like a few here and there. Right.
Luke (06:13):
Like
Cameron (06:13):
half as many. Mhmm.
Luke (06:15):
Came to our Sabbath Sabbath study. Just came to our
prayer study. Right. And itmight have just been that it was
nice out yesterday, but I doubtit. Yeah.
Cameron (06:24):
And that could be just whatever. Yeah. Could be a
fluke. I I I don't think it is.Yeah.
I think that there I think thatwe live in many ways. We we we
live according to kingdomvalues.
Luke (06:45):
Mhmm.
Cameron (06:46):
That aren't of like, in our work life rhythm, the
rhythms of our life, we do notlive according to the kingdom of
heaven type of values. Mhmm. Andwe we do really, really discern
like, really, decidedly liveaccording to the values of this
world, the kingdom of thisworld, which is work harder
Luke (07:09):
Mhmm.
Cameron (07:10):
Do more, produce more, build it high. Yep. Don't rest.
Be on. Don't be lazy.
Yeah. Lock in. Yep. Let's go.Yep.
And that is glorified. Yeah.It's not even it's not just
tolerated. Mhmm. It's glorified.
Luke (07:29):
Yeah. That was one of the points that resonated with me
from the video teaching fromlast night.
Cameron (07:34):
Mhmm.
Luke (07:34):
Was, I can't remember exactly how it was said, but it
was something like, oh, mostpeople don't go around
celebrating and saying, oh,guess how many lies I told this
week? Right. But we will goaround and brag, ugh, like
humble brag. Right? I put insixty hours of work this week,
you know?
Cameron (07:55):
For ten days in a row, haven't had a day off. Yeah.
Anything like that. Right. Yeah.
And so it like, it it's givingRomans two for me. How would I
say that? It's giving Romanstwo, where Paul is like, or
(08:15):
maybe it's the end of Romansone. I think it's the end of
Romans one, where he'sessentially saying like,
hardness of heart Mhmm. Darknessof heart increases as we find
ourselves celebrating in thewickedness of others.
Yeah. Mhmm. And for me, it feelsa little bit like the culture of
(08:36):
work in busyness, and antiSabbath is like this
glorification Mhmm. Of what Godhas called sin.
Luke (08:46):
Yeah.
Cameron (08:48):
And I think that there is a there's an intrinsic
especially for those who knowJesus, who are following Jesus,
who have the Holy Spirit,there's an internal conviction
Mhmm. Of that reality when youbegin to talk about Sabbath,
that if they're not ready tosurrender that portion of their
(09:11):
life, what do what do we what dowe do when we're not ready to
surrender a portion of our lifethat's not surrendered to God,
as we we run from it.
Luke (09:18):
Mhmm.
Cameron (09:19):
We we avoid the instances where we're going to
come under conviction. Mhmm. SoI I think that people are gonna
run from this. And and byrunning, I mean, I I don't
necessarily think that our likeSunday morning services are
gonna be any smaller when we'repreaching on it, but I think
(09:41):
we're gonna get a sense of thepeople's tuning out.
Luke (09:45):
Yeah. Right. It's like, how are we going well, that's
really nice for someone whothat's the that's the thing that
I think is gonna be the bigthing is is there's gonna be a
lot of internal justification.Not like I think there's like a
couple different pockets. Ithink some people are really
(10:06):
nervous when we talk aboutSabbath because their vision of
Sabbath is not very life giving.
Like, maybe what they grew upwith, or what their vision of a
really conservative practice ofSabbath looks like, and it's
like, we were talking tosomebody, and they were like,
well, you know, you can't doanything that's not associated
(10:27):
with God. You can't play gameson Sabbath. You have to you can
play like A Bible game. Biblemonopoly. Bible monopoly or
something like that.
You know? And so, like, that'snot a very like, I don't like
Monopoly to begin with. I don'tknow that I'm gonna like Bible
Monopoly much more.
Cameron (10:45):
I'm Joshua.
Luke (10:49):
Sure. You just wanna walk around this board, Make all the
all the tenets small I'm gonna
Cameron (10:54):
kill everyone. Just kill everyone that's in my way.
Luke (10:58):
Just don't pick Job. He wouldn't do well enough.
Cameron (11:02):
No, he would not.
Luke (11:04):
So, like, that's not a very compelling version vision
of Sabbath. So I still I thinksome people have this, that
doesn't sound good. It doesn'tsound beautiful.
Cameron (11:16):
No. And one of the things that I said last night
excuse me. One of the thingsthat I said last night, and I I
think it's increasingly true,and it just kind of came to me.
I wasn't planning to say it. Itjust kinda came to me as we were
talking about it last night inBible study.
It's like there's this there'sthis counter formational way
Mhmm. That we are thinking aboutlife and work and everything,
(11:39):
and then and Sabbath is thecounter formation against the
culture. Yep. But there'sagainst the culture in general,
but I also think there's thisstream of counter formation that
needs to happen againstoppressive, legalistic,
ritualistic, religious systems,and upbringings that have given
(12:01):
us that twisted view of Sabbath.Mhmm.
And that have not allowed us tosee it in a life giving, joy
filled, beautiful way
Luke (12:10):
Right.
Cameron (12:11):
That that makes it the central portion, the central
part of someone's week, orsomeone desires
Luke (12:20):
Yeah.
Cameron (12:21):
To to pursue Sabbath because of how beautiful it is.
Right.
Luke (12:25):
It's either a drudgery, or I think the other component is
that there's too many obstaclesto it. Or at least that becomes
the justification. Like, I'm I'manticipating a lot of people
having this conversation withthemselves of like, oh, well,
it's easy for pastor Luke to saythat he needs the Sabbath
(12:47):
because he doesn't have any
Cameron (12:48):
kids. Mhmm.
Luke (12:49):
Or, you know, whatever. Like, I'm not in a season of
life where I can Sabbath. I haveto do x, y, and z, and so
Sabbath is just simply a thing Ican't do because I've got kids,
or I've got Yep. And you hadsomething to say about that last
night.
Cameron (13:04):
Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, I've got as many reasons to not
Sabbath as anyone. You do. Youyou you be busy.
I'd be busy. I'd be busy. I gota couple different jobs. I have
a big family.
Luke (13:22):
Mhmm.
Cameron (13:23):
And the jobs that I do have tend to be on the more
demanding side. Mhmm. And I'mnot saying I'm killing it,
Sabbath. I'm just saying, I whatI'm saying is, I get it as much
as anyone gets it, that Sabbathis hard, especially when you
have kids. But what I think whatI what I think the problem with
(13:46):
that mindset is is that we are,it's actually a problem with us
Mhmm.
Internally with our heart, inthe way that we view the role of
parenting. Mhmm. We if we if weview parenting as the job that
we have, which I understand, itis hard work. It is for some
(14:13):
people, it is their job. It's mywife's.
She stays at home. Yeah.Parenting is her job. Mhmm. But
if we view it strictly as a job,then we will always view our
kids as something that we mustsabbath from Yeah.
Rather than invite them into.Mhmm. And so our Sabbath is not
(14:40):
Sabbath is never, even inscripture, was never something
that an individual personobserved or celebrated on their
own. Mhmm. They celebrated itwithin their community.
Mhmm. And the most intimate formof community is your family, and
so Sabbath must be somethingthat we create as a rhythm and a
(15:03):
celebration with our family.Mhmm. Our kids included, they
must be welcomed into theSabbath rhythm. We must create
rhythms of Sabbath that areappropriate and contextual for
them as well, so that they beginto understand its place in the
life of believers early.
Luke (15:22):
Yeah.
Cameron (15:23):
Which which goes to the point that we kind of talked
about again last night aboutSabbath intentionality.
Luke (15:31):
Yep. Yeah. Well, because that's the I think Sabbath, as
we're talking about, I thinkpeople get these different
pictures. You get people who arethinking of Sabbath as this
like, you know, you gotta besitting in a pew all day and
can't do anything that's not Godrelated. I think people who get
(15:51):
a picture of it as, like, it isa vacation day.
Right? It's like like, theythink of it like they want it to
be like they're going to aresort. They get to just like,
do nothing. Or some people justthink of it as like, well, I
have days off Mhmm. Where I dothings, you know, without a
(16:12):
whole lot of intention to it.
I shared personally that one ofthe things that I've had to
wrestle with is my owntechnology use. I have found
that if I enter into a Sabbath,and I don't have intentionality
around what I'm going to doduring that day, I will
gravitate towards the lowestcommon denominator, and then I
(16:34):
will not feel rested andrestored. Yep. I will spend time
watching videos. I will spendtime just like doing things
around the house, and then I getto the end of the day, and I was
like, yeah, okay.
That was like a day off. Mhmm.But did I do anything that was
like, restorative to my soul?Yeah. Did I go outside and touch
(16:55):
grass?
Like Right. Did I, you know, didI spend time with friends or
family in a meaningful andconnecting way, or did I just
kinda like, I didn't really haveany plans, so I just spent it
all by myself. Mhmm. And I feela little bit more disconnected
at the end of the day thanrestored. Like Yeah.
There there has to be someintentionality to it.
Cameron (17:15):
Right. Right. And and that becomes even more it
becomes more even moreconcentrated. Your
intentionality becomes moreconcentrated when you have
family, when you have kids. Thatwas kind of the point that I was
getting to, was that if you dono if there's no sense of
(17:39):
planning towards the SabbathMhmm.
The day before, or even theweek, the days before Yeah. Then
when you get there, you justfall into the lowest common
denominator of like, you you youlike screech into Sabbath by the
skin of your
Luke (17:53):
Yep.
Cameron (17:53):
Emotional, physical, mental teeth, and then you fall
apart, and you end up just beinglike lazy. Sabbath is not
laziness.
Luke (18:06):
Yeah. I think that's the thing that is kind of hard to
get articulated, is that I thinkwe're just like, well, Sabbath
means I don't do anything. Andin some regard, it does kind of
mean that.
Cameron (18:18):
It means you stop doing some things, but it doesn't mean
you do you don't do anything.
Luke (18:23):
Right. It's not like a day you just sit there.
Cameron (18:25):
Right.
Luke (18:26):
Become a bump on a log. Right. Or like, you know, a
lizard next to the pool. Like,you're you've gotta be doing
something.
Cameron (18:33):
Yeah. And and some of that some of that something
you're doing is the physical wewe tend to think that like,
laying down for physical rest orsomething is doing nothing.
Luke (18:44):
Yeah.
Cameron (18:47):
Because we're formed, our culture forms us, that
movement means something, you'redoing something. Yeah. Rest
isn't something that you do.Right. It's something that you
do when you're not doinganything else.
Luke (19:00):
Mhmm.
Cameron (19:01):
Rest is a book If we view rest as a proactive
activity that we're involvingourselves in, like, what are you
doing tomorrow? Oh, I'm I'm liketaking a nap. Like, that's my
proactive, intentional
Luke (19:14):
Mhmm.
Cameron (19:14):
Plan for restfulness, to experience the gift of God of
rest. That's doing something.It's not laziness. Yep. Laziness
is really a first to heartattitude.
But anyway
Luke (19:30):
But my I had a theology professor, and he loved to it is
clever, but he said it over andover and over again. He's just
like, look, you need to learn tonot just have recreation, but
recreation.
Cameron (19:47):
Okay. Sounds like a Bible professor.
Luke (19:52):
Yeah. He totally was. But like, his point there is that,
like, do something that'sbeautiful, something that, like,
is kind of enjoying a good giftof the Lord that is doing
something that's creative,something that's productive,
something that's, you know, likelike I don't know. Like, for me,
(20:13):
like, you know, if I'm gonnaSabbath, like, watching, like, a
Netflix show is fine, I think.For me, personally, like other
people, you're gonna have tomake their own judgment, but I
can't watch more than twoepisodes of a show.
Mhmm. Like, if it's going downinto, like, binge land, it is
(20:35):
becoming not good for my soul.It is my own judgment of that.
And I need to read something,and I need to be outside, and I
need to connect with people.Those are things that I need to
do that are good for my soul ina sense.
I don't know how else to kind ofget at that and help people
(20:55):
capture a vision of what's lifelife giving. I think, thinking
about Sabbaths and saying whatwould be life giving more than
what would be quote unquoterestful. I feel like that might
be the better question forpeople.
Cameron (21:08):
Mhmm.
Luke (21:09):
Because I think our idea of restful is skewed.
Cameron (21:12):
Yeah. And a part of it too, is that we are dealing with
a short amount of time. Yeah.Against a huge cultural
influence in people's lives.Mhmm.
And so I have even beenquestioning, and it was a little
bit even with the prayer series.Mhmm. In the same way, there
wasn't a whole lot of practical.Right. We weren't like helping
(21:35):
people to create prayerpractices as much as we were
trying to stir the heart tofaith in prayer.
Mhmm. Like, that's what Iwanted. Like, I wanna stir
people's hearts. I think thatthat is what moves them to this
place of desiring the way ofJesus. Mhmm.
Following after the way ofJesus. Yep. And and if we can we
(21:56):
can get them following after theway of Jesus, they begin to
hunger, and thirst, and seek,and find, and so a little bit of
that, I feel attention as apreacher, and as a pastor to
say, how much of this becausewhat everyone wants to know with
Sabbath is the practical things.Well, what can I do and not do?
Luke (22:15):
Yeah. Right.
Cameron (22:17):
But that kind of just displays this legalistic Mhmm.
Duty bound way of thinkingabout, talking about the Sabbath
that is wrapped up in a world ofperformance, pleasure Yep. And
production, and let me let meget this Sabbath thing over, so
(22:40):
I can get back to the moreimportant thing. And that's what
troubles me the most. And sothat's why I think, that's why
I'm, I I don't wanna say I'mworried about if this is gonna
quote unquote take.
Luke (22:52):
Mhmm.
Cameron (22:53):
I'm I'm I am I think what I would say is, I'm
becoming more sober minded Yeah.About the monster of cultural
formation that our people areunder. It's huge. Yeah. And the
and the necessity of a move ofGod Mhmm.
(23:15):
To change it. Yeah. Like, in Iheard a pastor say the other day
in response to someone talkingabout the church fighting the
culture war.
Luke (23:28):
Oh, yeah.
Cameron (23:29):
Yeah. And he said, we are not fighting the culture
war, we have lost. Have lost theculture war. Yeah. And I'm I'm
beginning to agree with that,that we have lost the culture
war, and so fighting it in thetraditional sense that we have
been
Luke (23:49):
Mhmm.
Cameron (23:50):
Fighting it, I think is a fool's errand. And so, to kind
of reorient where we are puttingnow our effort Mhmm. In light of
the culture war into really,like, asking the Lord in prayer.
(24:11):
Yeah. Contending for our Yeah.
World in prayer to say, Lord,without a miraculous
intervention, we're we're done.Barna I read a Barna article
from 2023 that said, without athe that the church in the
(24:36):
Western world is now in a stateof irreversible decline without
a move of God and a radical newform of discipleship. Mhmm.
Without a radical new form ofdiscipleship, and a Barna, the
research people, the statspeople
Luke (24:55):
The stats
Cameron (24:56):
people. The stats people, the numbers people were
like, the numbers are clear,irreversible decline unless God
moves. Mhmm. We are not we arelosing more Christians than we
are making.
Luke (25:12):
Yep. It's been that way for a while. Right. And it's
just becoming more and moreclear.
Cameron (25:17):
More and more, like, yeah, more and more aware.
Luke (25:21):
Yeah. We don't we've for a while now, at least, I'm pretty
sure, we've not been plantingenough new churches to
counteract the amount ofchurches that close each year.
Right.
Cameron (25:30):
Yeah. Or just a month or or just the number of people
who are disillusioned withfaith, walking away from faith,
dying, and we're not making Imean, I know it sounds like
we're not talking aboutreplacement cost here, but it's
kind of like the, you know,we're not replacing dying saints
with new That's
Luke (25:49):
what Catholics aren't. Right. Catholics aren't
struggling in that regard. But,yeah, I I think I am inclined to
also agree with that. I thinkthe pockets like, if you're like
I think the pockets of peoplewho would say they're Christians
that are fighting the culturewar
Cameron (26:10):
Mhmm.
Luke (26:11):
I would say that my concern with that is that
whenever I see somebody overthere that's like, ugh, waving a
little Christian flag and sayingthat they're fighting the
culture war, all the time, but asignificant amount of the time,
it's losing more and moreresemblance with Christ Yep. And
any resemblance to the
Cameron (26:31):
fruits of the spirit. Right. Which is a loss. Which is
a loss. That's an l.
Luke (26:35):
Yeah. And so, like, I'm like, yeah, you might be over
there fighting for against, youknow, progressive sexuality or
something like that, but youlook nothing like Jesus while
doing it. Right. And that's aloss. Like, that's not Yeah.
Cameron (26:49):
And what is your form of fighting the culture where
you're sharing a few you'reyou're resharing a couple
incendiary posts on FacebookYeah. And you're calling that
fighting the culture war? LikeYeah. Give me a break, bro.
Like, just not it.
No. Not it at all. Yeah. So Isaid all that to say, regards to
(27:12):
Sabbath, we are up againstsomething that will not be fixed
by simply preaching a few goodsermons. Like, need God's
presence.
Mhmm. We need God's presencehere. We need Him to to
miraculously intervene on ourbehalf, to do what is impossible
(27:37):
to do Mhmm. In the culture. Sowould like, think, not to shift,
keeping it on Sabbath, butshifting a little bit, would
like to talk a little bit aboutthe boundaries of the Sabbath
(27:57):
day.
When does Sabbath start? Oh.When does Sabbath end? Because
as I was preparing for lastnight, and then over the last
like twenty four hours or so,just considering my own Sabbath
ritual
Luke (28:11):
Mhmm.
Cameron (28:12):
And considering what would what would change if I
went from like a Jewish dayMhmm. To a Roman day, which we
use And so just wondering yourthoughts on that conversation
that we had. Maybe tee it up foreveryone listening about Yeah.
Actually talking about.
Luke (28:31):
So if we're saying, okay, Sabbath is gonna be the
traditional twenty four hours ofstopping, of resting, of
recreating, and we're gonna dothat, We can do if I was to ask
kindergartner, when does the daystart? Mhmm. They would say, in
(28:55):
the morning, when I wake up,when I get out of bed. Right?
Like, that's the way weconceptualize our days.
We have for centuries at thispoint, largely. Now, when you
read the Old Testament or notthe Old Testament, the Bible,
and you read the New Testament,particularly when it gets to
(29:17):
Holy Week, and Christ dying onthe cross, and then Him being
buried for three days. A lot oftimes people come away saying,
he wasn't buried for three days.There's a little bit of
confusion around all of that.And the reason is because Jews,
(29:39):
ancient Jews, understood theirdays to start and end at
different times.
For them, the start and end of aday was sundown, not necessarily
sunup. So a, you know, sunsetis, what, around like 07:00 here
now, something like that? So ourday today would end at seven,
(30:02):
and the new day would start.
Cameron (30:03):
Yeah. Friday actually starts tonight.
Luke (30:07):
Friday starts tonight, around dinnertime, and that
would be the start of the newday. And so traditionally, when
still practice Sabbaths today,when they Shabbat, it starts on
Friday night at sundown, andthen it ends on Saturday night
(30:31):
at sundown. That's when theirdays it doesn't start and begin
at the end of the day. So thequestion you're asking then is,
does it make a difference in theway that we experience Sabbath
in our current culture if wesay, my Sabbath is gonna start
(30:51):
the next morning I wake up,versus starting the evening
before I start that full day?
Cameron (30:58):
Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. That's the question. That's
ultimately the question that I'masking.
Yeah. And I'm curious. I I I'mI'm curious to to practice that
myself to see if it might.Because I'm I have suspicions
that it will that it wouldchange things.
Luke (31:16):
Yeah. Well, traditionally, I think one of the things is is
that traditionally, if youchange that so traditional
Sabbath practice usually startswith a meal, a shared meal on
Friday night. And everyone comesto someone's house, usually the
(31:36):
matriarch and patriarch orwhatever. All the families are
gathering in these kind ofbigger family units. The kids
are coming home from the suburbsor whatever.
Everyone's coming home, and theygather together. It's sundown.
They have the meal. They lightthe Shabbat candles. They, like,
say some prayers, and then theyenjoy the meal.
(31:57):
They relax into the evening, andthen the next day is the rest of
their Sabbath. And they can dothey do what they're gonna do.
They go to temple, they do allof that stuff, And then rest,
taking naps. There there are oldancient Jewish documents that
highlight different practicesthat people can do on Sabbath,
(32:20):
and napping is one of them, sexwith your spouse is one of them.
There's a whole bunch of thingsthat can be done, or were
traditionally practiced on theSabbath.
But I think having that mealahead of time, so that you have
this community moment, andinstead of having that, like, in
(32:40):
the more American way, which islike Sunday dinner or Sunday,
like, late lunch, whereeveryone's running home and
they're having to, like, get themeal all ready and then come,
and that can sometimes be alittle crazy unless you're like
a crock pot master, which ismaybe like a thing. We need to
become better at crock pots topractice Sabbath better. But I
(33:02):
think there's something aboutstarting it that way, getting
some physical night rest, andthen starting your day already
partly into the rest and intothe Sabbath, rather than
crashing and burning at the endof the day, sleeping in and
waking up and saying, alright, Igotta bring some intentionality
(33:23):
to my Sabbath now.
Cameron (33:25):
Yeah. Yeah. I think part of it is like going to bed.
It's that shared it's all thosethings. Yeah.
It's all those things, but partof it for me, I feel is like
going to bed already in a rhythmof Sabbath. Mhmm. Like, it has
started, I go, like, just themental, emotional, physical,
(33:47):
spiritual load.
Luke (33:48):
Mhmm.
Cameron (33:49):
Has been lifted, and you start with a Sabbath meal,
and time with your family, or oror with your community, or
whoever it is. And then and thenyou you kind of enter into this
place of, like, reallymeaningful rest. So Yeah. And
(34:11):
then also, I feel like I feel alittle bit like there's less
pressure.
Luke (34:18):
Mhmm.
Cameron (34:20):
Because at the end of the day, at the end of my
Sabbath Mhmm. There's a portionof the day Mhmm. That now is,
you know, I
Luke (34:32):
You can reconnect. Can do whatever you want.
Cameron (34:35):
Do the work. I can, you know, enter lock in again, you
know, whatever the case may be.And so there's this sense of
like, yeah. I just I guess it itfeels different. Yeah.
It feels different. Don't knowwhat to say other than that.
Luke (34:55):
Well, I think too, it's like we're so conditioned for
our mornings to be wake up, go.And when we have our Sabbath
day, and our Sabbath day startsin the morning, it's really hard
to switch that rhythm off forsome of us. Mhmm. We're just
like, supposed to be going. AndI think that's hard.
Cameron (35:15):
Mhmm.
Luke (35:15):
And I think I think I think it just I think we need
more transitions Mhmm. Than wethink we do. Mhmm. Like, anybody
who, like, works with kids orhas kids knows that kids do not
go from point a to point b verysimply. Right?
(35:37):
Like, I'm curious. When you guysare taking your kids somewhere,
how big of a warning time do youhave to like, give for like,
getting the kids ready to getout the door to go somewhere?
Cameron (35:49):
Well, it depends. It depends on how much we how much
of like, how long we want toendure the chaos. So, all of our
kids are different. Some of themdon't do well with immediate
transitions or Right. Changes ofrhythm or schedule, and so they
need a little bit more notice.
Yeah. But for the most part,what I mean, what we try to do
(36:13):
is we try to do a bunch of thework that is required for us to
leave the house Mhmm. Withoutthem
Luke (36:21):
Knowing. Knowing. Because they're gonna get too
emotionally excited.
Cameron (36:24):
Yes. So, like we set the shoes out, we pack the bag,
we get the jackets, make sureall the jackets are hung up,
okay. They know they can just goget their jackets, they can get
their shoes. And then, dependingon the thing, you know, we're
like, alright, it's time to go,and we maybe give ourselves, you
know, five, eight, ten minutesto get to the car. Yeah.
(36:45):
So
Luke (36:45):
But you've still done like forty five minutes of prep. Oh.
Yeah.
Cameron (36:50):
Like Oh, yeah. The prep has been done. So we're just
taking it out of the hands ofthe kids.
Luke (36:56):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Cameron (36:57):
Because that is like, you give the prep to the kids,
it's like brushing your teethwhile eating an Oreo. Yeah.
Like, is. Where's your othershoe? Right.
Yeah. Just does not make anysense. Yep. There's no forward
progress made.
Luke (37:12):
That is some parenting wisdom there. Because but that's
definitely like especially whenlike, we we were watching our
nephews the other week, and wewere going we needed to go
somewhere, and, like, you know,like, they weren't exactly super
excited about going to thisthing. And so we're like, oh,
shoot. We need to leave in twominutes. Like, okay, kids.
(37:35):
Let's go. And they're all justlike, oh, wait. I gotta put on
my shoe. I wanna change myoutfit. No.
No. No. And, like, they theyneeded that transition. And so,
like, I think as adults, weneglect giving ourselves, like,
transition moments Mhmm. In andout of things.
Cameron (37:51):
Mhmm.
Luke (37:51):
Like, I I don't have much of a commute. I haven't had much
of a commute, but now I reallydon't have much of a commute.
Cameron (38:00):
One of
Luke (38:01):
the things I miss about being in Chicago is a little bit
of the commute, as much asthat's kinda crazy for me to say
Mhmm. Because the commute inChicago to get to work was nuts.
But I would it took me an hourto get to work, even though I
only lived, like, two miles fromwork. Mhmm. But I had to get on
a bus.
I had to walk to the bus stop,get on a bus, get on the L, get
(38:22):
off the L, and walk a coupleblocks. And while I'm doing
that, I'm listening to anaudiobook. I'm listening to a
podcast, a sermon. I'm thinking,I'm reading, I'm doing
something, and that was how Istarted my day to get into work,
and it was how I ended my day toget home. Now, I live less than
a minute drive from the church.
Literally. That's a
Cameron (38:42):
minute, yeah.
Luke (38:44):
So I have like zero commute. I've kind of almost
start to I'm almost starting tofeel like I'm not ever actually
leaving home.
Cameron (38:51):
I bet you, honestly, your commute is so short. I bet
if we walked out of the frontdoor at the same time,
Luke (38:58):
Mhmm.
Cameron (38:59):
And I was like, I'm gonna jog to your house. That I
could jog to your house beforeyou could make it to your car.
Yeah. And do all those stopsigns and turns, the two turns
that
Luke (39:09):
you have to Yeah, the two turns.
Cameron (39:11):
I could be at your house about the same time, if
not quicker. Yeah. It's crazy.
Luke (39:14):
Just about. Yeah. Especially. Yeah. And so, it's I
don't have that commute.
I don't have that transitiontime anymore. And so, sometimes,
get home, and I'm just like, I'mstill trying to unwind from
having just been at my desk.Like, I need to go for a walk,
or I need something totransition. So I think having
Sabbath at the starting at theend of our traditional day, I
(39:39):
think, gives you a way totransition. Man, that was a
really long way to talk aboutall that, but Yeah.
Cameron (39:44):
Anyways. Yeah. No, I I agree. It's it is I'm I'm eager
to try that. I'm I'm gonna tryit this week.
Mhmm. So, what's today?Thursday, my Sabbath will start
tomorrow night, say around 7PMor so.
Luke (40:01):
Yeah. I think the part that I'm really interested, I
wanna do that too. I wanna dothe evening start and end, but I
also want to do something tomarket. Like, I to get a candle,
and I want to have some prayeror a meditation to do, and I'm
going to sit down, going tolight this candle, gonna read
(40:25):
this prayer, and that's thestart of Sabbath. And then like,
do the same thing to end it, sothat I'm not being so fuzzy.
Because like, if I don't startand end it in this very
practical demarcation, I'm moreapt to say, well, is today
really my Sabbath? Or like, youknow, well, I can know, and I
(40:48):
end up a whole bunch of thingsget added into the day that are
not Sabbath. Mhmm. So interestedto see what brings some
intentionality to that. Yeah.
Yep. If that will bring somemore intentionality in my heart
Heart
Cameron (41:01):
about it.
Luke (41:02):
Position towards As crazy as some people listening to this
might be thinking, like, is Lukebecoming an Orthodox Jew? I'm
not. But I think that's thosethings are important or helpful.
Cameron (41:13):
Yeah. Well, and listen, there there are practical I'm
asking practical questions aboutthat just even in my own life.
Like, if I do that Friday nightSabbath start Mhmm. Then there's
things that sometimes happen onSaturdays
Luke (41:28):
Mhmm.
Cameron (41:29):
That I have real questions about. Right. Like,
just I don't know about. Like,we have a men's breakfast here
Yes. That I lead.
Luke (41:37):
Yeah. Is that
Cameron (41:40):
Is that
Luke (41:40):
it? Yeah.
Cameron (41:43):
Are some of our kids have, like, dance activities on
Saturday.
Luke (41:47):
Yep.
Cameron (41:48):
And it usually is a little bit of a a little it's a
thing. It's a thing to getthere, and to get back, you
know? So I'm having thesequestions too. Yeah. And I don't
really know.
Yeah. Yeah. But, we're gonna I'mgonna Sabbath as I can, not
Sabbath as I can't to beginwith. Yep. And then just allow
(42:09):
God to form to form that in me.
Mhmm. Know?
Luke (42:14):
Alright. Well, if you have questions about what we've been
talking about with Sabbath, we'dlove to hear them in the
comments or in a message line orwhatever. We'd just be
interested to hear what yourreflections have been on this so
far. We've got more to talkabout for sure.
Cameron (42:30):
Yeah, we've got weeks. We've got weeks of Sabbath to
talk about.
Luke (42:33):
I think the next thing I want to talk about is Sabbath
still a tenth commandment?
Cameron (42:43):
Is it
Luke (42:43):
binding? Okay. Maybe to at least start.
Cameron (42:49):
Alright, let's do it. That's a good question. If
you're watching this on YouTube,let us know in the comments what
you think about that question.Yeah. And and we will catch you
on the next one.
Popular Podcasts
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com