February 10, 2025 • 35 mins
God doesn’t have a face does he? What does it mean to seek him? This theological reflection leads deeper into what it means to follow after God.
- (00:26) - Introduction to the Podcast
- (02:05) - Church Merchandise and Ideas
- (02:59) - Seeking God's Face: An Introduction
- (05:19) - Understanding Metaphors in Scripture
- (12:08) - Seeking God's Face vs. Seeking His Hand
- (14:12) - The Depth of Prayer and Intimacy
- (17:44) - The Call for National Revival
- (21:50) - The Role of the Church in Culture
- (25:44) - The Weight of Familiarity with God
- (31:39) - Repentance and Loss of Wonder
- (34:30) - Closing Thoughts and Next Episode Preview
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Luke (00:06):
Welcome to the Uncut podcast.
Cameron (00:09):
I'm pastor Cameron.
Luke (00:10):
And this is the Uncut podcast.
Cameron (00:19):
This is also the uncut podcast is also sponsored by
Conduit Clothing.
Luke (00:27):
Pick up your swag.
Cameron (00:28):
Which you can find at www.conduitministries.com. Maybe
some new offerings coming out asit gets closer to
Luke (00:37):
Summer?
Cameron (00:37):
Summer.
Luke (00:38):
I do have a couple designs in the backlog that I'm slowly
working on. They're not quitethere yet. Yeah. It's hard to
get church merch to not looklike church merch.
Cameron (00:52):
Am I sensing t shirts in the future?
Luke (00:55):
T shirts in the future, for sure. There's also, like,
this didn't we didn't push thisone super hard because it came
out kinda after the hoodies, butthere are, like, kid hoodies on,
up there now.
Cameron (01:06):
Could see that. Mhmm.
Luke (01:08):
Little fun life if I have a child. God.
Cameron (01:10):
Mhmm. How about some trucker hats?
Luke (01:12):
We can do trucker hats, I think.
Cameron (01:14):
We need some trucker hats, I think.
Luke (01:19):
Hey. Church great again. Yeah.
Cameron (01:25):
Yes. That that's it. So let it be written. It's Oh, damn
it. Can you imagine?
We that it would be aninteresting social experiment
just to walk around, go topastor prayer, wear it here
around here. Right. Red hat,white lettering that says make
(01:48):
church great again. Mhmm.Because most people wouldn't
read it.
Luke (01:52):
No. They would assume.
Cameron (01:53):
They would see the first word, make something great
again. Right. They wouldn't weshouldn't do it.
Luke (02:00):
Right. It would spark a lot of conversate. What do you
mean by that?
Cameron (02:05):
Yeah. Glad you asked. Yeah. Mhmm. Well, we're, we're
back into what we hope is aregular rhythm for you
Luke (02:17):
Yep.
Cameron (02:18):
For us too. It gives us an opportunity to talk through,
maybe dissect some of the thingsthat we're talking about during
the week
Luke (02:30):
Yeah.
Cameron (02:30):
As well as, go a little bit deeper with some of the
things we're preaching on.
Luke (02:36):
Mhmm.
Cameron (02:38):
So we, do a little series here on seeking God's
face Yeah. And what, what wemean when we say that and why
it's important and how itchanges the way that we show up
Yeah. In the world and changesthe way that we show up at
(02:59):
church. Mhmm. So, let's, let'sjump right in
Luke (03:06):
Yeah.
Cameron (03:06):
And ask that question. What if I say seeking God's
face, what is it exactly that Imean? And, you know, this can
always be a problem when we readthe Bible understanding or,
(03:30):
like, wrestling withmetaphorical language, because
God is not just a face.
Luke (03:39):
Right. Yeah. He he he's not, shoot. He's not Zorgon from
Mighty Morphin Power Rangers.
Cameron (03:48):
Or the Wizard of Oz. Or The Wizard of Oz.
Luke (03:50):
It's not The Mighty Wizard of Oz. Yeah. It's maybe the
bigger cultural reference.
Cameron (03:54):
Yeah. The Hyper Right. Yeah. Yeah. No one no one knows
who Zorgon is.
Luke (04:01):
Someone out there, I thought.
Cameron (04:02):
Well, actually, I knew. But, but, yeah, Wizard of Oz.
Think Wizard of Oz. Think BigFace. Right.
And so there's a little bit evenin the there's a little bit even
in the the language that needs,not unraveled, but just an
awareness that when we speak ofGod, we speak in kind of like
(04:26):
this anthropomorphic language,which means we ascribe human
bodily traits to God. Yeah.Which in some ways is
appropriate. Jesus had a body.Jesus was a man.
You know? But we say things likeseeking God's face or God's hand
(04:48):
or God's mighty arm right arm,you know, or out of God's mouth.
So we we attributeanthropomorphic or, like, having
to do with man things about Godthat, can sometimes be that that
(05:12):
are just ways in which biblicalauthors sought to describe
Right. What they were Yeah.Experiencing in their
interaction with him.
Luke (05:20):
Yeah. But it's interesting because, like, I think this is
kind of like the, I was gonnasay middle school. Maybe I'll
say it's the high school way ofattacking the authority of
scripture. Cause occasionallysomebody will pick out
metaphorical language out of theBible.
Cameron (05:36):
Right.
Luke (05:38):
Like there are passages that talk about, I can even I
know there's one specificallytowards the end of Job where it
talks about God, like, storinglightning and hail in his
warehouses, and they come outand then he, like, throws those
bolts and Yeah. Stuff like that.And they're just like, well,
look, We know lightning bolts.We know where they come from,
and we know where hail comesfrom. Like, god isn't throwing
(06:00):
lightning.
Mhmm. The bible's fault. Youknow? Yep. But that's the the
point of the bible wasn't tocommunicate that there was a
literal storehouse.
Cameron (06:10):
It's not a sign it's not a science textbook. Science.
No. It wasn't meant to, like itwasn't meant to relay scientific
facts or stand up against thescientific method in the way in
which we think produces truth.
Luke (06:26):
Right. Because none of those things existed when it was
written.
Cameron (06:28):
Right. So the Bible is more poetry than it is science
book. Right. And if we don't ifwe don't have an awareness of
that, we can run up againstmetaphorical language that
leaves us feeling a little bitout of the loop in terms of who
God is. So when we see thingslike, you know, like we where
(06:52):
we've been preaching from Psalm24, happen to have it right
here.
Such as the generation of thosewho seek him, who seek your
face, oh, God of Jacob. Yeah.The the language there is not,
(07:14):
seeking the wizard of Oz behindthe curtain. But when biblical
writers talked about seeking theface of God, they were using
this metaphorical language tokind of rep to to represent his
his presence. Or I readsomething this morning, even
(07:36):
that seeking his face was meantto, describe his the Lord's full
attention.
Yeah. So it's like think about II kinda think about it, like, as
a parent when you're talking toone of your kids and they're
(08:02):
like you can tell that they'relike, squirrel. Squirrel. You
know? Like, they're just notthere.
And, like, you you withgentleness, of course. Always
gentleness, of course. You holdtheir face in between your hands
and you get down right in frontof them. And they're like, you
(08:22):
know, like, do I have your fullattention in this moment? Right?
And so that's kind of like whatthe that's the that's the push.
That's the thrust. That's theidea that's communicated when
the psalmist is saying, Lord, weseek your face. Lord, we like,
Lord, grab our faces betweenyour hands so that we can look
(08:47):
nowhere else but at you. Like,do not steady our faces, fix our
eyes, lock our gaze so that wehave we cannot turn aside.
Yeah. We cannot turn ourattention attention aside.
Luke (09:09):
Is that rooted in is that it's like a way of talking about
it? Was that, like, rooted inthe language somehow, or is the
way, like, they just kind ofjust
Cameron (09:19):
I'm not sure. I don't really know. I'm not, I don't
really know the word etymologythere. That would be really
interesting to know. I don't Ican't I mean, to be honest with
you, I can say that I haven'teven really studied the Hebrew
of it, and I don't really knowthat it would make much of a
(09:40):
difference because I don't knowHebrew and I never studied it
before.
Yeah. We're Greek bros. Yep.Yeah. It was Hebrew or Greek in,
in under both undergrad andseminary, and I was like, I'm
I'm a Greek bro.
But, anyway, had to ask ask oneof your friends. Yeah. Yep.
(10:00):
Actually, does do that becausethat would be a great, I think,
that would be a great studythere. But, you know, like the,
so there is, like, a, a, kindalike, a corollary.
(10:21):
Like, we talked a little bitabout it in, like, the general
anthropomorph anthropormPromorphic. Language about God,
talking about his body parts,you know, where the like,
they're seeking his hand,seeking the the hand of God. We
seek the face, so we're seeking,like, to have full attention and
(10:43):
full devote full devotedattention to God's, and I guess
we should take this evenfurther. It's not just full
attention to God. It's fullattention to his nature and to
his character.
So it's not like a fullattention to what he's doing or
(11:06):
a full attention to, maybe thefruit of a life lived in him.
It's full attention on him inhis person. So his nature, his
character, his holiness, likehis covenant. I would say even
(11:26):
his covenant promises, thosecome out of his nature. His
love.
And that is kind of contrastedwith the seeking of God's hand,
which is completely biblical,legitimate, like, pursuit of our
(11:52):
lives. Like, we we you we canseek God's hand. In fact, most
like, a lot of a lot of ourprayer is a is a petition to see
the hand of God in the world.
Luke (12:08):
So if we're seeking his hand, you were you were saying
seeking his face is particularattention to his character, his
attributes himself. If we'reseeking his hand, then by like
contrast, we're seeking whathe's doing, his activity.
Cameron (12:24):
His like help or his provision. Help us, Lord. Come
and like get your hands dirty inthis mess that we are in. Lord,
we need this from you. Provideit for us.
That's the seeking of the hand,which I think I I think it it it
(12:48):
it doesn't take a a huge leap tosay that that's probably the way
in which we seek God in prayermost.
Luke (12:55):
Right. I I I call those prayers grocery list prayers.
Oh. And and maybe I need to finda different way to say it, but,
like because I don't wanna beoverly derogatory. I don't want
people to feel like they can'tpray.
Dear Lord, please help my auntor, you know, or help me with
this. And I've got this goingon. Like, there, like, there's
(13:17):
nothing particularly wrong withthat. It's just that if that's
the only thing you're doing,you're missing a segment of
prayer and a way of seeking theLord that I think, like, that I
wanna call people out of alittle bit. Yeah.
And so when I use that languageof, like, it's a grocery list
prayer, you immediately get whatI'm saying. Because you're like,
(13:38):
oh, yeah, the list. Yep.Everyone's
Cameron (13:40):
got it.
Luke (13:41):
Like, you know, but, like, there's this other component
that is less talked about in thecircles that we brought in.
Cameron (13:49):
Yeah. Yeah. And that's well, and, again, that's not to
say that the that the prayersseeking God's hand are not
Luke (13:58):
They're great.
Cameron (13:59):
They're it's it's it's biblical. Like, we, you know,
and and so we we don't wannaavoid those. I think I think I
don't know. I I think I wouldsay that prayer to seek God's
hand Mhmm. Comes most faithfullyout of prayer that starts with
(14:29):
seeking his face.
Right. Because it starts inseeking God's face is a is a
pursuit of intimacy rather thanblessing. And then and so we
(14:50):
would we would it could be likeit could be said that it's out
of, like, the overflow of ourintimacy with the lord that we
pray in such a way that he showsup. You know, like, he, he sees,
he recognizes, he hears thevoice of his child. Alright?
(15:14):
The and he shows up on theirbehalf. So, obviously, in Psalm
24, which we've been preachingon the last, you know, four
weeks or so, we see that phrase,those who seek your face, oh God
of Jacob. Psalm 27, verse eightis, another one that, you know,
(15:39):
put we often hear people, use.My heart says of you, seek his
face. Your face, oh lord, I willseek.
That's again a psalm of David.David, like, just a man who
sought after God, sought afterhis face. There an another one
and I've preached on thisbefore. In fact, I've preached
(16:00):
on it. It wasn't too long agothat we, preached on it, in
second Chronicles.
Where am I going? Do you evenknow your Bible, Cameron?
Luke (16:17):
You said second Chronicles.
Cameron (16:22):
Second Chronicles seven fourteen. If my people who are
called by my name will humblethemselves and pray and seek my
(16:44):
face and turn from their wickedways, then I will hear from
heaven. I will forgive theirsin, and I will hear their land.
Now my eyes will be this isanother, like, ascribe me to
God, you know, qualities andcharacteristics of man. Now my
eyes will be opened and my earsattentive to the prayers offered
(17:08):
in this place.
I have chosen and consecratedthis temple so that the so that
my name may be there forever. Myeyes and heart will be there
forever. Oh my gosh. Would thelord that the lord would say
that about this place, That myhis eyes would be open and his
(17:28):
ears attentive to the prayersoffered in this place. He has
chosen this place andconsecrated it so that his name
may be there forever.
His eyes and his heart willalways be there. Lord, make it
so. Mhmm.
Luke (17:46):
Man, I like I I feel like it's a shame that I've never
really sat underneath thatpassage because of the way that
it is so often used in context.That I just almost out of hand,
just dismiss it anytime someonestarts quoting it. Mhmm. Which
(18:08):
is like a shame. Mhmm.
Yeah. But, like, that's a that'sa fantastic call to repentance
and prayer. Mhmm.
Cameron (18:17):
It is it is the pathway to national revival or large
scare large scale revival. Ithink when do we preach it? We
preached it during the at theend of the series, talking point
series.
Luke (18:33):
Mhmm. I feel like I might have been out of town that
Sunday Mhmm. For one reason oranother.
Cameron (18:39):
I felt it was a powerful Sunday, because it what
it what what I tried to do therewith that message was to say
that our the Christian responseto the ills of the world, to the
ever, like growing secularismand hedonism and individualism
(19:01):
of the world. Yeah. All theisms, like, they see we all see
it. We know it. We see decline.
We see the end of any sort ofmoralism or search for God even
in, even in, culture. John Tysonuse has been using a phrase
(19:26):
lately where he says that theculture is doing a reverse
exorcism. Our modern culture isdoing a reverse exorcism where
before the church would go intothe world in the in the
authority, in the in the spiritof Christ driving out evil.
(19:47):
Right? And now the culture hasflipped so that the the culture
now is is any mention of God,any vestige of God, any attempt
at, a biblical moralism or abiblical ethic is being forced
(20:09):
out.
You're not allowed to be here.That has no authority here. That
has no power here. And and wehave we have seen in that
reverse exorcism, the fruit ofit in our culture, the fruit of
it in our cities, the fruit ofit in our kids, the fruit of it
(20:36):
in generations that are becomingfurther and further and further
and further away from the Lord,deconstructing their faith,
having no faith whatsoever,Christians having not led anyone
to the Lord, maybe their wholewalk with God. And so right.
(20:58):
Like the culture's just like,get out of here, God. And and so
what so then the question is,will we see that as a as the
church? It's the one who who whowe do follow Jesus and we do
desire God and we do want God tobe here and come and revive us
(21:18):
and, like, retake ground fromthe enemy, both in our hearts
and in the world. Like, what dowe do? Well, it's all their
fault.
They just need to get right.They need to they need to turn
from their sin. It's always evenin our hearts, it's usually like
(21:39):
someone else's. They gotta fixthat over there where the call
of God here in Chronicles was tothe people of God. It wasn't to
a world that was turning indarkness.
It was like, if you wanna, ifyou want to see healing and you
(22:00):
want to see power and you wantto see people return to me, if
my people who are called by myname, what do they need to do?
If they will humble themselvesand pray and seek my face and
turn from their wicked ways,then I will hear from heaven. I
(22:24):
will forgive their sin, and Iwill hear their land. I think
it's important it would beimportant for us to ask the
question of ourselves, what sindoes do the people of God need
to repent from in order towelcome in the revival and
(22:46):
renewing and refreshing that theLord wants to bring? So and
seeking his face is a part ofthat.
Lord, we we we we need you. It'sit's you that are gonna turn is
gonna turn the tide. It's notI'm gonna be a manufacturing of
(23:07):
our own, you know, like, will ormind. Lord, it's you. It's you
alone, that we need.
Luke (23:16):
A %. Mhmm. That's I think, you know, as you were talking
about that idea of reverseexorcism, I was immediately, I
was thinking, me and my wife gotto travel to England last month
and was a fun, super fun tripseeing a friend get married. But
(23:37):
probably the highlight of thewhole trip for me was the two
days we spent in Oxford. Mhmm.
And, you know, one of the oldestuniversities in the world and
was originally like a theologyplace. It was a place of, you
know, it was a seminary, a placefor training and studying and,
(23:58):
had a very rich and theologicalhistory, places where Prince,
where CS Lewis and Tolkientaught and, like, all of this
great history and, religioushistory. And it was really,
really sad when we did the tour,and we're being toured around by
(24:20):
one of the current students. Andhow almost apologetic the tour
guide student was over thereligious history of the place.
Like, kind of trying to, like,skirt around it, explain it
away.
(24:40):
Like, I mean, like, e even ifyou're not a Christian, like,
it's the, like, it's theheritage.
Cameron (24:47):
It's the reality. It's the reality of the place.
Luke (24:49):
Like, don't try like like, almost like apologizing. Like, I
know this is like, I'm justlike, it's Oxford. Like, there's
a rich theological history here.Even if you don't agree with
Christianity, you have to seeits cultural importance that
it's had over so much time. Butit was it was just it's
(25:12):
interesting because I was justlike, it to be in a place where
the buildings are screaming, godexists, like, the architecture
is designed in such a way.
The mottos, everything, thestatues, all proclaiming god
exists, but every single studentI ran across was, like, trying
to just cover their faces towhat was just around
Cameron (25:35):
Push it out. Push it out.
Luke (25:36):
Mhmm. It was it was really interesting.
Cameron (25:39):
Mhmm. Yeah. Go ahead. It's heavy. I mean, it's heavy.
You know?
Luke (25:49):
It's really heavy. I don't know. I have, like, I have,
like, a couple questions, andthen I think we'll probably,
wrap up this episode. Maybe justmaybe one or two and then
continue the conversation. Thisis kind of maybe going back.
I think this is maybe, we kindof answered this question, but
maybe just to put, make itexplicit for those who maybe are
asking it when we're sayingseeking God's face or his like,
(26:19):
you know, I actually, I'm, Ithink, I think we'll kind of
leave that for later. Let's juststick with that question that
you kind of asked. Do you haveany sense of what the things are
that we corporately, you know,as a church, maybe not, maybe
not here, or maybe just broadly,like you can kind of decide the
(26:42):
scope, need to repent up andhumble ourselves from it. Like,
did you did you have any sensein your in your thinking through
that?
Cameron (26:59):
Yeah. That's, understandably a heavy question.
Partly, I think, because I'm apastor of the church. And so
(27:19):
it's like that repentance startswith me. You know?
It needs to start with me. Itneeds to start with a
recognition that, you know,perhaps there are things that I
have perhaps there are things orways in which I have led even
(27:43):
unintentionally that have,turned aside our focus from the
Lord himself, you know? And so Ithink, it's a it's so incredibly
(28:07):
easy in it's so incredibly easyto be, to live and work and be
super involved in church and notknow God. Like, so we are, like,
(28:37):
so familiar with God that wedon't know him. Like, we don't
know him in intimacy.
It's like, it's all it's likeand I feel like that's written
all in the pages of scripture.Like, the more familiar the
(28:58):
people of God got with God, likethis like, they felt it felt he
felt familiar. The things of himfelt familiar. The further away
they got from actually thepursuit of his person and who he
was in holiness. Think aboutthink even think about the whole
(29:20):
town of Nazareth, the birthplaceof Jesus.
Who this carpenter's son, I knowhis brothers and his sister. I
know his mom. Isn't it the sonof the carpenter, Joseph? You
know? And right.
And they rejected him. And andwhat does the scripture say? It
(29:43):
says he could not do manymiracles there because of their
lack of faith. They were sofamiliar with Jesus that they
could not worship him asMessiah. And so there is a over
familiarity with the with God asan ethical construct that seeks
(30:08):
to modify our behavior to makeus nice people, that we don't
see the God who truly is the onethat wants to call us out of
just like an ethical life into alife of worship of the holy, of
devotion, of confession, of, ofsurrender and sacrifice for
(30:35):
ourselves.
So I think that there is Ithink, you know, probably the
thing we need to repent of is anover familiarity with him to the
detriment of the recognition ofhis holiness and his his
presence and maybe his desire tobe here. I don't think that God
(30:57):
I don't think that God needs tobe convinced to, like, grab our
full attention. We don't wedon't need to, like, argue with
him about whether or not heshould or wants to. Because he
yes. Yes.
Luke (31:16):
Grounded in that relationship of God is kind,
compassionate. He's a father. Heis in relationship with us. He
has given
Cameron (31:25):
Right. And he and and he has promised that when we
seek him, like, you will seek meand you will find me when you
seek me with all of your heart.
Luke (31:36):
You're trying me.
Cameron (31:40):
There it is. Yeah. So, I think repenting for a
repenting of an overfamiliarity, that has caused us
to lose our wonder.
Luke (31:55):
Mhmm. You know, as you're talking about, like, over
familiarity, I think the thingthat was coming in my mind was,
I think when I was I waspreaching on Elijah this past
summer. I did some diving intokind of the, the idols that
(32:17):
Israel was like worshiping andtempted to worship throughout
the whole old Testament. And oneof the things that I kind of
like learned from that study wasthat it wasn't so much that the
Israelites were just wholesaleabandoning God. It's that they
(32:37):
were adding to him the worshipof Asherah and Baal and things
like that.
Mhmm.
Cameron (32:44):
There
Luke (32:45):
was even a text that is I was just really upsetting. But,
like, still, like, thousands ofyear later, it's an upsetting
text. But it's a text where,they were describing Asherah as
having, like, a relationshipwith god. Mhmm. God of Israel.
(33:05):
Mhmm. Like, it wasn't that theywere just like Yeah. Oh, we're
going to ignore god completely.Can we add these other gods into
the mix and and create this,like, syncretism? And, you know,
so often when, you know, the,there was a good king in Judah
(33:27):
or Israel, they would like, oneof the common refrains is they
were like, and they destroyedmany idols and he did many good
things, but they did not destroythe
Cameron (33:37):
high High places.
Luke (33:38):
One the high places, like, almost always Stayed. Stayed. I
think there was maybe one kingwho maybe did
Cameron (33:44):
Josiah. Josiah. Mhmm.
Luke (33:46):
But almost even the good kings Mhmm. Almost always
neglected this one thing, and itwas the high places Mhmm. And
which were places of idolworship. And I I think too, it's
an o I think you're right. It'san over familiarity with God,
but I think it's also this overfamiliarity with things that
(34:10):
have crept in that aren'tsupposed.
Mhmm.
Cameron (34:17):
Idolatry.
Luke (34:18):
Yeah.
Cameron (34:19):
Yeah. Yeah. So
Luke (34:25):
Yeah. Was that a good stopping point for us for this
episode?
Cameron (34:31):
Yeah. I think so. Let's, we'll we'll pick it up
next time if this if thisconversation interests you. If
you want more of this, You know,we're gonna just continue on
kind of in our conversationabout seeking God's face, what
we mean when we say that, how todo it, what it requires, what it
(34:55):
what it means and doesn't mean,and how might it practically,
orient and change our life inthe church. So, thanks for
listening,
Welcome to the Uncut podcast.
Cameron (00:09):
I'm pastor Cameron.
Luke (00:10):
And this is the Uncut podcast.
Cameron (00:19):
This is also the uncut podcast is also sponsored by
Conduit Clothing.
Luke (00:27):
Pick up your swag.
Cameron (00:28):
Which you can find at www.conduitministries.com. Maybe
some new offerings coming out asit gets closer to
Luke (00:37):
Summer?
Cameron (00:37):
Summer.
Luke (00:38):
I do have a couple designs in the backlog that I'm slowly
working on. They're not quitethere yet. Yeah. It's hard to
get church merch to not looklike church merch.
Cameron (00:52):
Am I sensing t shirts in the future?
Luke (00:55):
T shirts in the future, for sure. There's also, like,
this didn't we didn't push thisone super hard because it came
out kinda after the hoodies, butthere are, like, kid hoodies on,
up there now.
Cameron (01:06):
Could see that. Mhmm.
Luke (01:08):
Little fun life if I have a child. God.
Cameron (01:10):
Mhmm. How about some trucker hats?
Luke (01:12):
We can do trucker hats, I think.
Cameron (01:14):
We need some trucker hats, I think.
Luke (01:19):
Hey. Church great again. Yeah.
Cameron (01:25):
Yes. That that's it. So let it be written. It's Oh, damn
it. Can you imagine?
We that it would be aninteresting social experiment
just to walk around, go topastor prayer, wear it here
around here. Right. Red hat,white lettering that says make
(01:48):
church great again. Mhmm.Because most people wouldn't
read it.
Luke (01:52):
No. They would assume.
Cameron (01:53):
They would see the first word, make something great
again. Right. They wouldn't weshouldn't do it.
Luke (02:00):
Right. It would spark a lot of conversate. What do you
mean by that?
Cameron (02:05):
Yeah. Glad you asked. Yeah. Mhmm. Well, we're, we're
back into what we hope is aregular rhythm for you
Luke (02:17):
Yep.
Cameron (02:18):
For us too. It gives us an opportunity to talk through,
maybe dissect some of the thingsthat we're talking about during
the week
Luke (02:30):
Yeah.
Cameron (02:30):
As well as, go a little bit deeper with some of the
things we're preaching on.
Luke (02:36):
Mhmm.
Cameron (02:38):
So we, do a little series here on seeking God's
face Yeah. And what, what wemean when we say that and why
it's important and how itchanges the way that we show up
Yeah. In the world and changesthe way that we show up at
(02:59):
church. Mhmm. So, let's, let'sjump right in
Luke (03:06):
Yeah.
Cameron (03:06):
And ask that question. What if I say seeking God's
face, what is it exactly that Imean? And, you know, this can
always be a problem when we readthe Bible understanding or,
(03:30):
like, wrestling withmetaphorical language, because
God is not just a face.
Luke (03:39):
Right. Yeah. He he he's not, shoot. He's not Zorgon from
Mighty Morphin Power Rangers.
Cameron (03:48):
Or the Wizard of Oz. Or The Wizard of Oz.
Luke (03:50):
It's not The Mighty Wizard of Oz. Yeah. It's maybe the
bigger cultural reference.
Cameron (03:54):
Yeah. The Hyper Right. Yeah. Yeah. No one no one knows
who Zorgon is.
Luke (04:01):
Someone out there, I thought.
Cameron (04:02):
Well, actually, I knew. But, but, yeah, Wizard of Oz.
Think Wizard of Oz. Think BigFace. Right.
And so there's a little bit evenin the there's a little bit even
in the the language that needs,not unraveled, but just an
awareness that when we speak ofGod, we speak in kind of like
(04:26):
this anthropomorphic language,which means we ascribe human
bodily traits to God. Yeah.Which in some ways is
appropriate. Jesus had a body.Jesus was a man.
You know? But we say things likeseeking God's face or God's hand
(04:48):
or God's mighty arm right arm,you know, or out of God's mouth.
So we we attributeanthropomorphic or, like, having
to do with man things about Godthat, can sometimes be that that
(05:12):
are just ways in which biblicalauthors sought to describe
Right. What they were Yeah.Experiencing in their
interaction with him.
Luke (05:20):
Yeah. But it's interesting because, like, I think this is
kind of like the, I was gonnasay middle school. Maybe I'll
say it's the high school way ofattacking the authority of
scripture. Cause occasionallysomebody will pick out
metaphorical language out of theBible.
Cameron (05:36):
Right.
Luke (05:38):
Like there are passages that talk about, I can even I
know there's one specificallytowards the end of Job where it
talks about God, like, storinglightning and hail in his
warehouses, and they come outand then he, like, throws those
bolts and Yeah. Stuff like that.And they're just like, well,
look, We know lightning bolts.We know where they come from,
and we know where hail comesfrom. Like, god isn't throwing
(06:00):
lightning.
Mhmm. The bible's fault. Youknow? Yep. But that's the the
point of the bible wasn't tocommunicate that there was a
literal storehouse.
Cameron (06:10):
It's not a sign it's not a science textbook. Science.
No. It wasn't meant to, like itwasn't meant to relay scientific
facts or stand up against thescientific method in the way in
which we think produces truth.
Luke (06:26):
Right. Because none of those things existed when it was
written.
Cameron (06:28):
Right. So the Bible is more poetry than it is science
book. Right. And if we don't ifwe don't have an awareness of
that, we can run up againstmetaphorical language that
leaves us feeling a little bitout of the loop in terms of who
God is. So when we see thingslike, you know, like we where
(06:52):
we've been preaching from Psalm24, happen to have it right
here.
Such as the generation of thosewho seek him, who seek your
face, oh, God of Jacob. Yeah.The the language there is not,
(07:14):
seeking the wizard of Oz behindthe curtain. But when biblical
writers talked about seeking theface of God, they were using
this metaphorical language tokind of rep to to represent his
his presence. Or I readsomething this morning, even
(07:36):
that seeking his face was meantto, describe his the Lord's full
attention.
Yeah. So it's like think about II kinda think about it, like, as
a parent when you're talking toone of your kids and they're
(08:02):
like you can tell that they'relike, squirrel. Squirrel. You
know? Like, they're just notthere.
And, like, you you withgentleness, of course. Always
gentleness, of course. You holdtheir face in between your hands
and you get down right in frontof them. And they're like, you
(08:22):
know, like, do I have your fullattention in this moment? Right?
And so that's kind of like whatthe that's the that's the push.
That's the thrust. That's theidea that's communicated when
the psalmist is saying, Lord, weseek your face. Lord, we like,
Lord, grab our faces betweenyour hands so that we can look
(08:47):
nowhere else but at you. Like,do not steady our faces, fix our
eyes, lock our gaze so that wehave we cannot turn aside.
Yeah. We cannot turn ourattention attention aside.
Luke (09:09):
Is that rooted in is that it's like a way of talking about
it? Was that, like, rooted inthe language somehow, or is the
way, like, they just kind ofjust
Cameron (09:19):
I'm not sure. I don't really know. I'm not, I don't
really know the word etymologythere. That would be really
interesting to know. I don't Ican't I mean, to be honest with
you, I can say that I haven'teven really studied the Hebrew
of it, and I don't really knowthat it would make much of a
(09:40):
difference because I don't knowHebrew and I never studied it
before.
Yeah. We're Greek bros. Yep.Yeah. It was Hebrew or Greek in,
in under both undergrad andseminary, and I was like, I'm
I'm a Greek bro.
But, anyway, had to ask ask oneof your friends. Yeah. Yep.
(10:00):
Actually, does do that becausethat would be a great, I think,
that would be a great studythere. But, you know, like the,
so there is, like, a, a, kindalike, a corollary.
(10:21):
Like, we talked a little bitabout it in, like, the general
anthropomorph anthropormPromorphic. Language about God,
talking about his body parts,you know, where the like,
they're seeking his hand,seeking the the hand of God. We
seek the face, so we're seeking,like, to have full attention and
(10:43):
full devote full devotedattention to God's, and I guess
we should take this evenfurther. It's not just full
attention to God. It's fullattention to his nature and to
his character.
So it's not like a fullattention to what he's doing or
(11:06):
a full attention to, maybe thefruit of a life lived in him.
It's full attention on him inhis person. So his nature, his
character, his holiness, likehis covenant. I would say even
(11:26):
his covenant promises, thosecome out of his nature. His
love.
And that is kind of contrastedwith the seeking of God's hand,
which is completely biblical,legitimate, like, pursuit of our
(11:52):
lives. Like, we we you we canseek God's hand. In fact, most
like, a lot of a lot of ourprayer is a is a petition to see
the hand of God in the world.
Luke (12:08):
So if we're seeking his hand, you were you were saying
seeking his face is particularattention to his character, his
attributes himself. If we'reseeking his hand, then by like
contrast, we're seeking whathe's doing, his activity.
Cameron (12:24):
His like help or his provision. Help us, Lord. Come
and like get your hands dirty inthis mess that we are in. Lord,
we need this from you. Provideit for us.
That's the seeking of the hand,which I think I I think it it it
(12:48):
it doesn't take a a huge leap tosay that that's probably the way
in which we seek God in prayermost.
Luke (12:55):
Right. I I I call those prayers grocery list prayers.
Oh. And and maybe I need to finda different way to say it, but,
like because I don't wanna beoverly derogatory. I don't want
people to feel like they can'tpray.
Dear Lord, please help my auntor, you know, or help me with
this. And I've got this goingon. Like, there, like, there's
(13:17):
nothing particularly wrong withthat. It's just that if that's
the only thing you're doing,you're missing a segment of
prayer and a way of seeking theLord that I think, like, that I
wanna call people out of alittle bit. Yeah.
And so when I use that languageof, like, it's a grocery list
prayer, you immediately get whatI'm saying. Because you're like,
(13:38):
oh, yeah, the list. Yep.Everyone's
Cameron (13:40):
got it.
Luke (13:41):
Like, you know, but, like, there's this other component
that is less talked about in thecircles that we brought in.
Cameron (13:49):
Yeah. Yeah. And that's well, and, again, that's not to
say that the that the prayersseeking God's hand are not
Luke (13:58):
They're great.
Cameron (13:59):
They're it's it's it's biblical. Like, we, you know,
and and so we we don't wannaavoid those. I think I think I
don't know. I I think I wouldsay that prayer to seek God's
hand Mhmm. Comes most faithfullyout of prayer that starts with
(14:29):
seeking his face.
Right. Because it starts inseeking God's face is a is a
pursuit of intimacy rather thanblessing. And then and so we
(14:50):
would we would it could be likeit could be said that it's out
of, like, the overflow of ourintimacy with the lord that we
pray in such a way that he showsup. You know, like, he, he sees,
he recognizes, he hears thevoice of his child. Alright?
(15:14):
The and he shows up on theirbehalf. So, obviously, in Psalm
24, which we've been preachingon the last, you know, four
weeks or so, we see that phrase,those who seek your face, oh God
of Jacob. Psalm 27, verse eightis, another one that, you know,
(15:39):
put we often hear people, use.My heart says of you, seek his
face. Your face, oh lord, I willseek.
That's again a psalm of David.David, like, just a man who
sought after God, sought afterhis face. There an another one
and I've preached on thisbefore. In fact, I've preached
(16:00):
on it. It wasn't too long agothat we, preached on it, in
second Chronicles.
Where am I going? Do you evenknow your Bible, Cameron?
Luke (16:17):
You said second Chronicles.
Cameron (16:22):
Second Chronicles seven fourteen. If my people who are
called by my name will humblethemselves and pray and seek my
(16:44):
face and turn from their wickedways, then I will hear from
heaven. I will forgive theirsin, and I will hear their land.
Now my eyes will be this isanother, like, ascribe me to
God, you know, qualities andcharacteristics of man. Now my
eyes will be opened and my earsattentive to the prayers offered
(17:08):
in this place.
I have chosen and consecratedthis temple so that the so that
my name may be there forever. Myeyes and heart will be there
forever. Oh my gosh. Would thelord that the lord would say
that about this place, That myhis eyes would be open and his
(17:28):
ears attentive to the prayersoffered in this place. He has
chosen this place andconsecrated it so that his name
may be there forever.
His eyes and his heart willalways be there. Lord, make it
so. Mhmm.
Luke (17:46):
Man, I like I I feel like it's a shame that I've never
really sat underneath thatpassage because of the way that
it is so often used in context.That I just almost out of hand,
just dismiss it anytime someonestarts quoting it. Mhmm. Which
(18:08):
is like a shame. Mhmm.
Yeah. But, like, that's a that'sa fantastic call to repentance
and prayer. Mhmm.
Cameron (18:17):
It is it is the pathway to national revival or large
scare large scale revival. Ithink when do we preach it? We
preached it during the at theend of the series, talking point
series.
Luke (18:33):
Mhmm. I feel like I might have been out of town that
Sunday Mhmm. For one reason oranother.
Cameron (18:39):
I felt it was a powerful Sunday, because it what
it what what I tried to do therewith that message was to say
that our the Christian responseto the ills of the world, to the
ever, like growing secularismand hedonism and individualism
(19:01):
of the world. Yeah. All theisms, like, they see we all see
it. We know it. We see decline.
We see the end of any sort ofmoralism or search for God even
in, even in, culture. John Tysonuse has been using a phrase
(19:26):
lately where he says that theculture is doing a reverse
exorcism. Our modern culture isdoing a reverse exorcism where
before the church would go intothe world in the in the
authority, in the in the spiritof Christ driving out evil.
(19:47):
Right? And now the culture hasflipped so that the the culture
now is is any mention of God,any vestige of God, any attempt
at, a biblical moralism or abiblical ethic is being forced
(20:09):
out.
You're not allowed to be here.That has no authority here. That
has no power here. And and wehave we have seen in that
reverse exorcism, the fruit ofit in our culture, the fruit of
it in our cities, the fruit ofit in our kids, the fruit of it
(20:36):
in generations that are becomingfurther and further and further
and further away from the Lord,deconstructing their faith,
having no faith whatsoever,Christians having not led anyone
to the Lord, maybe their wholewalk with God. And so right.
(20:58):
Like the culture's just like,get out of here, God. And and so
what so then the question is,will we see that as a as the
church? It's the one who who whowe do follow Jesus and we do
desire God and we do want God tobe here and come and revive us
(21:18):
and, like, retake ground fromthe enemy, both in our hearts
and in the world. Like, what dowe do? Well, it's all their
fault.
They just need to get right.They need to they need to turn
from their sin. It's always evenin our hearts, it's usually like
(21:39):
someone else's. They gotta fixthat over there where the call
of God here in Chronicles was tothe people of God. It wasn't to
a world that was turning indarkness.
It was like, if you wanna, ifyou want to see healing and you
(22:00):
want to see power and you wantto see people return to me, if
my people who are called by myname, what do they need to do?
If they will humble themselvesand pray and seek my face and
turn from their wicked ways,then I will hear from heaven. I
(22:24):
will forgive their sin, and Iwill hear their land. I think
it's important it would beimportant for us to ask the
question of ourselves, what sindoes do the people of God need
to repent from in order towelcome in the revival and
(22:46):
renewing and refreshing that theLord wants to bring? So and
seeking his face is a part ofthat.
Lord, we we we we need you. It'sit's you that are gonna turn is
gonna turn the tide. It's notI'm gonna be a manufacturing of
(23:07):
our own, you know, like, will ormind. Lord, it's you. It's you
alone, that we need.
Luke (23:16):
A %. Mhmm. That's I think, you know, as you were talking
about that idea of reverseexorcism, I was immediately, I
was thinking, me and my wife gotto travel to England last month
and was a fun, super fun tripseeing a friend get married. But
(23:37):
probably the highlight of thewhole trip for me was the two
days we spent in Oxford. Mhmm.
And, you know, one of the oldestuniversities in the world and
was originally like a theologyplace. It was a place of, you
know, it was a seminary, a placefor training and studying and,
(23:58):
had a very rich and theologicalhistory, places where Prince,
where CS Lewis and Tolkientaught and, like, all of this
great history and, religioushistory. And it was really,
really sad when we did the tour,and we're being toured around by
(24:20):
one of the current students. Andhow almost apologetic the tour
guide student was over thereligious history of the place.
Like, kind of trying to, like,skirt around it, explain it
away.
(24:40):
Like, I mean, like, e even ifyou're not a Christian, like,
it's the, like, it's theheritage.
Cameron (24:47):
It's the reality. It's the reality of the place.
Luke (24:49):
Like, don't try like like, almost like apologizing. Like, I
know this is like, I'm justlike, it's Oxford. Like, there's
a rich theological history here.Even if you don't agree with
Christianity, you have to seeits cultural importance that
it's had over so much time. Butit was it was just it's
(25:12):
interesting because I was justlike, it to be in a place where
the buildings are screaming, godexists, like, the architecture
is designed in such a way.
The mottos, everything, thestatues, all proclaiming god
exists, but every single studentI ran across was, like, trying
to just cover their faces towhat was just around
Cameron (25:35):
Push it out. Push it out.
Luke (25:36):
Mhmm. It was it was really interesting.
Cameron (25:39):
Mhmm. Yeah. Go ahead. It's heavy. I mean, it's heavy.
You know?
Luke (25:49):
It's really heavy. I don't know. I have, like, I have,
like, a couple questions, andthen I think we'll probably,
wrap up this episode. Maybe justmaybe one or two and then
continue the conversation. Thisis kind of maybe going back.
I think this is maybe, we kindof answered this question, but
maybe just to put, make itexplicit for those who maybe are
asking it when we're sayingseeking God's face or his like,
(26:19):
you know, I actually, I'm, Ithink, I think we'll kind of
leave that for later. Let's juststick with that question that
you kind of asked. Do you haveany sense of what the things are
that we corporately, you know,as a church, maybe not, maybe
not here, or maybe just broadly,like you can kind of decide the
(26:42):
scope, need to repent up andhumble ourselves from it. Like,
did you did you have any sensein your in your thinking through
that?
Cameron (26:59):
Yeah. That's, understandably a heavy question.
Partly, I think, because I'm apastor of the church. And so
(27:19):
it's like that repentance startswith me. You know?
It needs to start with me. Itneeds to start with a
recognition that, you know,perhaps there are things that I
have perhaps there are things orways in which I have led even
(27:43):
unintentionally that have,turned aside our focus from the
Lord himself, you know? And so Ithink, it's a it's so incredibly
(28:07):
easy in it's so incredibly easyto be, to live and work and be
super involved in church and notknow God. Like, so we are, like,
(28:37):
so familiar with God that wedon't know him. Like, we don't
know him in intimacy.
It's like, it's all it's likeand I feel like that's written
all in the pages of scripture.Like, the more familiar the
(28:58):
people of God got with God, likethis like, they felt it felt he
felt familiar. The things of himfelt familiar. The further away
they got from actually thepursuit of his person and who he
was in holiness. Think aboutthink even think about the whole
(29:20):
town of Nazareth, the birthplaceof Jesus.
Who this carpenter's son, I knowhis brothers and his sister. I
know his mom. Isn't it the sonof the carpenter, Joseph? You
know? And right.
And they rejected him. And andwhat does the scripture say? It
(29:43):
says he could not do manymiracles there because of their
lack of faith. They were sofamiliar with Jesus that they
could not worship him asMessiah. And so there is a over
familiarity with the with God asan ethical construct that seeks
(30:08):
to modify our behavior to makeus nice people, that we don't
see the God who truly is the onethat wants to call us out of
just like an ethical life into alife of worship of the holy, of
devotion, of confession, of, ofsurrender and sacrifice for
(30:35):
ourselves.
So I think that there is Ithink, you know, probably the
thing we need to repent of is anover familiarity with him to the
detriment of the recognition ofhis holiness and his his
presence and maybe his desire tobe here. I don't think that God
(30:57):
I don't think that God needs tobe convinced to, like, grab our
full attention. We don't wedon't need to, like, argue with
him about whether or not heshould or wants to. Because he
yes. Yes.
Luke (31:16):
Grounded in that relationship of God is kind,
compassionate. He's a father. Heis in relationship with us. He
has given
Cameron (31:25):
Right. And he and and he has promised that when we
seek him, like, you will seek meand you will find me when you
seek me with all of your heart.
Luke (31:36):
You're trying me.
Cameron (31:40):
There it is. Yeah. So, I think repenting for a
repenting of an overfamiliarity, that has caused us
to lose our wonder.
Luke (31:55):
Mhmm. You know, as you're talking about, like, over
familiarity, I think the thingthat was coming in my mind was,
I think when I was I waspreaching on Elijah this past
summer. I did some diving intokind of the, the idols that
(32:17):
Israel was like worshiping andtempted to worship throughout
the whole old Testament. And oneof the things that I kind of
like learned from that study wasthat it wasn't so much that the
Israelites were just wholesaleabandoning God. It's that they
(32:37):
were adding to him the worshipof Asherah and Baal and things
like that.
Mhmm.
Cameron (32:44):
There
Luke (32:45):
was even a text that is I was just really upsetting. But,
like, still, like, thousands ofyear later, it's an upsetting
text. But it's a text where,they were describing Asherah as
having, like, a relationshipwith god. Mhmm. God of Israel.
(33:05):
Mhmm. Like, it wasn't that theywere just like Yeah. Oh, we're
going to ignore god completely.Can we add these other gods into
the mix and and create this,like, syncretism? And, you know,
so often when, you know, the,there was a good king in Judah
(33:27):
or Israel, they would like, oneof the common refrains is they
were like, and they destroyedmany idols and he did many good
things, but they did not destroythe
Cameron (33:37):
high High places.
Luke (33:38):
One the high places, like, almost always Stayed. Stayed. I
think there was maybe one kingwho maybe did
Cameron (33:44):
Josiah. Josiah. Mhmm.
Luke (33:46):
But almost even the good kings Mhmm. Almost always
neglected this one thing, and itwas the high places Mhmm. And
which were places of idolworship. And I I think too, it's
an o I think you're right. It'san over familiarity with God,
but I think it's also this overfamiliarity with things that
(34:10):
have crept in that aren'tsupposed.
Mhmm.
Cameron (34:17):
Idolatry.
Luke (34:18):
Yeah.
Cameron (34:19):
Yeah. Yeah. So
Luke (34:25):
Yeah. Was that a good stopping point for us for this
episode?
Cameron (34:31):
Yeah. I think so. Let's, we'll we'll pick it up
next time if this if thisconversation interests you. If
you want more of this, You know,we're gonna just continue on
kind of in our conversationabout seeking God's face, what
we mean when we say that, how todo it, what it requires, what it
(34:55):
what it means and doesn't mean,and how might it practically,
orient and change our life inthe church. So, thanks for
listening,
Popular Podcasts
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com