Episode 101: The Northumberland Land Trust

Doug McRae, board member with the Northumberland Land Trust, shares his passion for protecting natural spaces in an era of rapid development. The Northumberland Land Trust has preserved over 2,200 acres across 19 properties through land donations and strategic acquisitions, with more conservation areas in the pipeline.

Visit nltrust.ca to learn more about the Northumberland Land Trust, upcoming events, and ways to support their conservation work.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Back in 2016,.
Frank and I had a vision toamass the single largest
database of muskie anglingeducation material anywhere in
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Our dream was to harness the knowledge of this
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Thus the Ugly Pike podcast was born and quickly
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Step into the world of angling adventures and
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Join us on our quest tounderstand what makes us
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The Ugly Pike Podcast isn't just about fishing.
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Find Ugly Pike now on Spotify, apple Podcasts or
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Speaker 3 (01:12):
As the world gets louder and louder, the lessons
of our natural world becomeharder and harder to hear, but
they are still available tothose who know where to listen.
I'm Jerry Ouellette and I washonoured to serve as Ontario's
Minister of Natural Resources.
However, my journey into thewoods didn't come from politics.

(01:33):
Rather, it came from my time inthe bush and a mushroom.
In 2015, I was introduced tothe birch-hungry fungus known as
chaga, a tree conch withcenturies of medicinal
applications used by Indigenouspeoples all over the globe.
After nearly a decade ofharvest, use, testimonials and

(01:56):
research, my skepticism hasfaded to obsession and I now
spend my life dedicated toimproving the lives of others
through natural means.
But that's not what the show isabout.
My pursuit of this strangemushroom and my passion for the
outdoors has brought me to theplaces and around the people
that are shaped by our naturalworld.

(02:16):
On Outdoor Journal Radio'sUnder the Canopy podcast, I'm
going to take you along with meto see the places, meet the
people.
That will help you find youroutdoor passion and help you
live a life close to nature andunder the canopy.
So join me today for anothergreat episode, and hopefully we

(02:37):
can inspire a few more people tolive their lives under the
canopy, under the Canopy Allright.
Well, I want to thank everybody, all our listeners throughout
Canada, across the states andaround the world, in Switzerland
, ghana, trinidad, tobago, ourfriends down in the Bahamas and

(02:57):
everywhere else Reallyappreciate you listening, of
course, because we wouldn't havea show if it wasn't for you,
and at any time.
If anybody has any questions orcomments or wants to hear any
special shows, let us know.
I know I got to Pierre wantingto do a problems with
bureaucracy, one coming up, sowe'll be recording that, and I

(03:19):
know my son's back in fromEdmonton, so I'm probably going
to be doing a recording withGarrett, I think, and I got to
tell you this, a recording withGarrett, I think, and I got to
tell you this morning it was out, same as usual.
We're out running my chocolatelab and some Gunner.
So I was out with Gunner and Igot a second bloom of reishi,
which kind of surprised, becausehere it is, you know, end of
June, early July, and you got asecond bloom and most of the

(03:51):
time the reishi is done, atleast where I am and where I get
my reishi from.
So I'm seeing reishi there andthe mint's doing well, the
stinging nettle's doing well,but the strangling dog vine, oh
my, it's just everywhere and Igot to tell you.
So we take the dog out and we doa morning run and he ends up
with a couple of other dogs.
There's Willie, who's a GermanShorthaired Pointer, and then
there's another chocolate labwho I guess would be Gunner's
best friend, cooper, and we'rewalking along and they're with

(04:13):
their owners and I always stop.
And here I am and they'rewondering what the heck are you
doing?
Well, I'm pulling stranglingdog vine blossoms out and
pulling them out so that becausethis is just going rampant
everywhere in there and it'staken over all the other fauna
in the area completely and justdominating everything.
And most people, I don't thinkthey really understand that

(04:34):
that's what's going to happenand it'll just completely
dominate everything.
So here I am, picking it andthrowing it in a pile, letting
it die.
Of course it's a weed that'scontrolled, so there's no
problem with the municipalitygetting upset, but it's just one
of the things that we try to do.
And now the water's out and onhot days that we got now, both

(04:56):
Willie, the German short-hairedpointer, and Cooper, the other
chocolate lab, are in the creekand my guy just looks at me and
I just shake my head, no, and hedoesn't go in the water.
He just knows stay out of thewater until he's told it's okay,
because otherwise he gets inthe truck and everything's
soaked.
And I got Garrett's truck.
So it's just one of the ways tokind of keep things and it's

(05:17):
not too bad now, but a month agoI got to tell you the smell
from the dead salmon is stillpretty dominant everywhere.
So we try to keep that downbecause I know Cooper when he
gets home guess who has to havea bath.
But anyways, that's just anotherthing of our out there and our
living apothecary with, as Imentioned, the mint, and I've

(05:39):
got quite a bit of mullein andquite a few other plants as well
, including the reishi and thestinging nettle and a bunch of
other things.
Now today we got a great guest,and it's Doug McRae.
Doug is a board member with theNorthumberland Land Trust.
Doug, welcome to the program.
Thanks for coming on.

Speaker 4 (05:58):
Thank you very much for having me.

Speaker 3 (06:00):
Not a problem at all.
I know I spoke with Sabrina, Imet her, and sometimes people
like I call her like, oh,probably I don't know how many
probably six months ago, and shegave me her card and I said, oh
, I might be interested in doinga program with you, and she
thought, really Okay.
And then so six months later Iget in touch with her and you

(06:21):
probably don't remember me.
Oh yeah, yeah, we met inPeterborough, that's right.
So here we are and we'retalking about the Northumberland
Land Trust.
So, Doug, tell us a bit aboutyourself, Like what's your
background and what's yourspecial interest, and things
like that.

Speaker 4 (06:34):
Well, I, ever since I can remember, I've been just
fascinated by nature and wantingto be in it all the time, and
I'm one of these guys whocouldn't really pay attention in
school but I could really payattention outside.
So I spent a lot of my youthsort of honing skills.
I'm a very avid bird watcherbut I'm interested in all

(06:57):
aspects of natural history andso over the years I just started
with contract employment andthen I've worked in a whole
bunch of different things.
I spent about 20 yearstraveling the world with a
company in Texas guiding birdingtours.
I've worked for consultingcompanies, parks, all sorts of

(07:18):
things, and most recently I'vetaken up a teaching, part-time
teaching position at FlemingCollege in Lindsay, teaching in
the Fish and Wildlife Program,teaching ornithology and
wildlife observation skills,which is, ironically, I think
it's the most gratifying jobI've ever had.
I just love that job and anyway, and I got involved with the
Land Trust about 20 years agoand my involvement has only

(07:41):
increased over time.
I'm like everyone in our landtrust, except Sabrina, I am a
volunteer.
Sabrina is our first employee,and so I probably spend, you
know, a good half of the workweek doing land trust things,
which is a labor of love.

Speaker 3 (07:57):
Yeah, so whereabouts is this?
Just so people areinternational listeners, Doug
understand Whereabouts is theland.
Trust based from Toronto.
That's usually a good pointthat people internationally
understand.

Speaker 4 (08:09):
So Northumberland County is the southern border,
is the Lake Ontario shoreline.
It goes north to Rice Lakewhich is a big, long east-west
lake, and the western boundaryis about an hour from Toronto.
So Durham is the county to ourwest and Hastings and Prince
Edward County are the countiesto our east and Peterborough to

(08:29):
the north.

Speaker 3 (08:31):
All right.
Now you mentioned about alifelong passion.
I have to tell you, when I wasin school, it was the same with
me.
It was always when we were kidshey, mom, we're heading down to
the creek, okay, be back forsupper.
Heading down to the creek, okay, be back for supper.
And you know, you'd head down,cross the road, cross the big
road which was Stevenson, downthrough the school, down through
at that time, the fields it'sall houses now and then houses

(08:54):
and down to the creek, and wewould spend all day down there,
up by Hicks's farm, and oh yeah,we'd.
We'd spend time, we'd go up onthe barn and when the hay was in
, we'd climb up on the barn roofand jump off into the hay piles
, just as kids.
And I got to tell you.
It was interesting, though, andlater on, after I was elected, I
met with Mr Henderson, who isthe science teacher in grade

(09:18):
seven, and when I went toRidgeway Public School and I
don't know, he saw something inme, and I remember asking him.
I said I never understood whyyou put me in the conservation
fair with this.
I had a red-bellied salamanderdisplay and I didn't think it
was very impressive, and he said.

(09:39):
Well, he said I could tell thatthere was an interest in
science and I thought that youknow your passion was there and
it was important to stir that on.
And then the next year, in gradeeight I was at that time they
did streaming and I was streamedin the science class with Mr
Pratt and it was certainlysomething that inspired a lot of

(09:59):
my as you mentioned a lifelongpassion with the outdoors and
all the other things that tookplace, because we did a lot of
bus tours and trips along withthat class and it was really an
inspiration.
So there was a lot of stuffthat at that time, when we were
streamed and in classes, thatinspired a lot of the stuff
which is good, good for a lot ofkids, in my opinion, and
certainly inspired a lot of the,the, the things that I do now

(10:21):
as well as just well, I justmentioned about the reishi, the
stinging nettle, the wild mintplants and all the other things
that are out there as well.
So now tell us okay, go ahead,doug.

Speaker 4 (10:33):
No, I was just going to say it sounds like you and I
had very similar upbringings,because I had trouble staying in
school.
I found the outdoors much moreinteresting and it's sort of a
different era when, like now, ifyou jumped off a barn roof into
a hay bale, they'd probablyhave children's aid on you.
Yeah, but it all worked out.

Speaker 3 (10:52):
Yep, oh, yeah it.
You know it was a lot of theinspiration.
It was just and the kids wehung around with too were were
always involved in a lot ofnature stuff, which is very
important, kind of the the groupthat we were and whether it was
a nature or nurture thing thatwe were there and we were
spending that time out down inthe streams and going fishing
and all the rest of it asinspiration.

(11:13):
But, yeah, it was certainlysomething that Mr Pratt and Mr
Henderson inspired a lot ofaspects of my life and some of
the building blocks that arevery important later on.
So tell us, okay, Doug, what isa land trust for our listeners?
Sure, okay.

Speaker 4 (11:32):
So a land trust?
Land trusts are registeredcharitable organizations and the
main mission is to receivebiologically interesting
properties and manage themwisely for conservation.
I mean, that's boiled rightdown.
So the Northumberland LandTrust actually formed from the

(11:54):
merger of two land trusts thatwere operating in the county and
since the merger three yearsago we have grown exponentially
and it's a very, very excitingtime for us right now.
But land trusts basically areconservation organizations, but
without a lot of the I don'twant to say politics, but

(12:17):
without a lot of thedifficulties that parks have
where they have to satisfy abroad audience.
And you know, we, we have avery, very simple mission, and,
and our mission, our mission isstraightforward it's acquire
properties, manage them wiselyand, and, and mostly when I say

(12:38):
that we're, we're managing toeither protect or enhance the
existing biodiversity or specialfeatures that those properties
may have.

Speaker 3 (12:48):
So when you say acquire properties, do you mean
that the land trust is actuallybuying properties, or is this
private property that's signedon to be part of the trust?

Speaker 4 (12:57):
In most cases we now have 19 properties.
17 of those were donated by thelandowners and in most cases
it's people around, you know, intheir 60s or 70s.
They bought the land back, youknow, 40, 50 years ago.
They have loved that land.
They have trails, they'veplanted trees and they're

(13:20):
looking ahead and they do notwant to see it sold, subdivided,
broken up.
They love that land and ourmission dovetails perfectly with
that sentiment.
And so they have donated themto us and there's quite
significant tax advantages for alandowner.
And then we have one propertywhich is classified as an

(13:42):
easement.
So we have a legal easement onthe property dictating what can
happen to it and whenever thatproperty is sold, the new owners
have to abide by that easement.
And then we have our first everpurchase.
Property was last year.
We went in a 50-50 partnershipwith Ducks Unlimited, which are
a great conservationorganization, and we bought

(14:05):
what's called the Bitty CreekWetland, which is a 304 acre fen
on the south side of the 401,right at the Brighton exit.
It's just insane that there'sthis big, almost like a
wilderness bog literally besidethe 401.

Speaker 3 (14:23):
Yeah, well, I worked quite a bit with DU Ducks
Unlimited and actually it wasinteresting At one of the
international conferences.
What happened, doug, was muchlike you were just talking about
the 304-acre property that youacquired with DU Ducks Unlimited

(14:44):
has a policy where and I'm notsure it's the same, but it used
to be matching funds.
And so what happened was I wasat an event at Queen's Park and
it was outside Queen's Park andI needed a ride back to Queen's
Park and anybody going back toQueen's Park.
So I got in with this one guyand I said oh yeah, what do you
do?
He says well, when NormSterling was the minister of the

(15:06):
environment, he created a uh, apocket of funds to clean up
AOCs areas of concern, yep, andhe was in charge of it.
And he said but since Norm isno longer the minister, the
ministry does not want to dealwith me at all.
And here I have I can'tremember three or $ million
dollars sitting there waiting todo work with that.

(15:27):
There's no interest at all.
And I said, huh, and I'm one ofthose guys that kind of come
hear things and hear issues andkind of bring everything
together.
I said I know an organizationthat might be interested in
talking to you.
And he says really, and I saidyeah, ducks Unlimited.
I said they have a policy whereit's matching funds and they
will come in and workpotentially with you.

(15:48):
So I set it up with DU.
The two of them got together andthey brought in, they doubled
the money and most of the DUmoney that comes in for these
cleaning up these areas comesfrom the states.
So United States sent upanother three or five million
dollars on a matching basis,just as you said, on a matching
basis.
Du got the property and it wasthe same thing that all of a

(16:09):
sudden now they're cleaning upall these areas of concern,
contaminated areas in the GreatLakes area.
That's great.
So as a result of that, one ofthe things and I did a bunch of
other work with DU one of thethings that happened was that we
were at an internationalconference where I was asked to
speak at DU and they presentedme with an honorary doctorate,

(16:32):
so they affectionately called meDr Duck with Ducks Unlimited.

Speaker 4 (16:37):
Well, better than a quack, eh.

Speaker 3 (16:39):
Well, yeah, maybe a little bit of both, right.

Speaker 4 (16:43):
Yeah, no, this is our first venture with Ducks
Unlimited.
Although Nature Conservancy ofCanada, which is a national
broad-scale land trust, ducksUnlimited and Nature Conserv
co-purchased a property here inBrighton, just east of Brighton,
240 acres of shoreline wetlanda couple of years ago and I
helped with that effort as welland that's actually maybe also

(17:06):
worth mentioning.
You know we have a few landtrusts operating in our area.
We have Nature Conservancy andthey take sort of provincial or
national high-priority habitatareas.
That's what they're focused on.
There's also the Oak RidgesLand Trust, which extends into
Northumberland but goes rightacross the top of Toronto, and
then our land trust.
And something I really likeabout this is it's a small

(17:29):
community really and we all knoweach other and we work very
seamlessly together.
Like it isn't a competitivething as to who gets what
property.
We've had landowners approachNature Conservancy and say we
want to give you our propertyand they'll say, well, that's
not really in our mandate, whydon't you talk to Northumberland
and vice versa.
So it really I mean, I knowpeople talk a lot about

(17:49):
partnerships and sometimes Ithink it's maybe a little more
talk than action, but this isreally quite a seamless group of
people working together and Ilove that.

Speaker 3 (18:00):
So Doug, how large is the land trust now?
How many acres are involved inthis land trust?

Speaker 4 (18:04):
Okay.
So I'm glad you asked thatbecause I actually had to add it
up last night because we havebeen acquiring so many
properties in the last few years.
It's a number that's changingrapidly, but right now we have
19 properties.
We have five or six more in thepipeline that are coming and
our total acreage now is rightabout I have it written down

(18:26):
here.
It's just over 2,200 acres orso, which is only slightly
smaller than Presque IsleProvincial Park, which is also
in the county Very good and whenwe merged three years ago we
had 10 properties.
We've got 19 now.
So it's happening.
What do you mean when you merged?
Well, as I said earlier, therewere two land trusts operating

(18:48):
there was the Lone Pine LandTrust and the North Armadale
Land Trust and we were sort ofstepping on each other's toes
and we finally said why don't wejust join together?
And we did, and the merger justgave us a huge shot of energy,
reduced all the duplication thatwas happening and it allowed us

(19:08):
to have some focus.
And then another key thing thathappened was we decided to dig
in and we hired our first staffmember, who was Sabrina
Hasselfeld, who's been great,and so the board and like,
basically it's a volunteerorganization.
Sabrina is the only paidposition and just in the last
well, starting next week ourexecutive director will start

(19:30):
our second employee.
And so we're on a big growthtrajectory since the merger and
it's really exciting.

Speaker 3 (19:37):
And what's your position?
Doug, I know you're a boardmember, but do you have another
title?

Speaker 4 (19:43):
or role there.
Well, yeah, I'm a director onthe board of directors and I sit
on a couple of the committees.
I'm on the acquisitioncommittee, so when someone
approaches us and says I have aproperty I might be interested
in donating, I'm part of theteam that go look at the
property, talk with thelandowner.
I'm on the stewardshipcommittee, which basically
dictates how we manage theproperties and how we tackle

(20:05):
things.
Like you were mentioning dogstrangling vine, and we have
that.
We have European buckthorn, wehave phragmites a number of
invasive plants that are quitedamaging and spread rapidly, and
so we're we're.
Probably our biggest effort instewardship and management is on
controlling invasive species.
So I'm I'm involved in all ofthat.

(20:26):
I'm also on the fundraisingcommittee and and you know, we
do things like we have tables atvarious fairs and things, so
sometimes I volunteer in that.
So we have tables at variousfairs and things, so sometimes I
volunteer in that.
So basically we do whatever weneed to do.
I don't really have a formalposition beyond being a director
and sitting on some of thosecommittees, but I'm an avid
naturalist, biologist.
So our board is made up of avery, very diverse group of

(20:51):
people.
We have people who've been ingovernment, people who've been
in communications, accounting,running businesses, and I'm kind
of one of the strongerbiologists on the group, so I'm
often approached on that.

Speaker 3 (21:07):
Okay, so, doug, and who regulates or monitors what
governs a land trust?
Then, doug monitors.

Speaker 4 (21:18):
What governs a land trust then, Doug Well, so, as I
mentioned before, land trustsare registered charities, so we
have to abide by the regulationsthat the federal and provincial
government have aroundcharities.
We have to operate within theparameters that they set out.
Beyond that, I'm not sayingthere's I wouldn't say there's a
lot of regulation of the landtrusts.
There is a provincial body, theOntario Land Trust Association,

(21:47):
OLTA, which kind of acts as anumbrella group and a resource
for all the regional land trustsand otherwise we're basically
governed by our constitution,our bylaws, that sort of thing.

Speaker 3 (21:55):
Okay, and so is there a ministry that deals with land
trust, is it not?

Speaker 4 (22:03):
resources or environment or how does that
play out.
We deal with both of thoseministries.
Those are the main ones.
We also deal a lot withtownship and county governments.
Like, when we're acquiring aproperty, you know we need to
get severances.
Sometimes someone will donate aproperty but sever the house
off.
So we deal with local governmenta fair bit on those sorts of
issues.
And then we have a fair bit ofinteraction with Ministry of the

(22:26):
Environment, ministry ofNatural Resources, but not a
huge amount.
But again, I mean it's.
I guess probably it's mostlylocal government that we're
dealing with more than any otherbranch.
We do sometimes get grants fromthe provincial and federal
government, sometimes providefunds towards the acquisition of

(22:48):
properties, because even if youdonate a property, it often
costs anywhere from $20,000 to$40,000 to accept it, because
you need surveys, you needseverances, you need lawyers, we
have to do biological studieson each of the properties in
order for the donors to qualifyfor one of the programs called

(23:09):
EcoGift, a federal program whichprovides a tax receipt for 100%
of the appraised value that youcan write off over 10 years.
So it's very advantageous tothe donor.
But you know that does requirea fair bit of paperwork to go
through.

Speaker 3 (23:25):
Right.
So now do you get oppositionfrom local governments, Because
is there like a property taxloss for income from local
governments when you acquireproperties?

Speaker 4 (23:36):
Well, I'm really glad you asked that, because we pay
the same taxes as anyone else.
Oh really, yeah, if it becomesa land trust property, that does
not mean we don't pay taxes.
Now there are some programsthat can reduce our taxes, but
they're also available toprivate landowners, right?
So one of them is called theCLPTIP, the Conservation Lands

(23:59):
Tax Incentive Program, and ifyou're, it's usually related to
wetlands.
But if your property has, say,a provincially significant
wetland on it, that part of theproperty can be exempt from
taxation.
If you have a forestry program,like a managed what is it?
The MIFTIP, managed forest taxincentive program you get a
reduction of the tax rate forthe portion that is a managed

(24:23):
forest.
So we can, you know, we get thesame break as a private
landowner, and it's a reallycommon misconception among some
local councils that this issomehow taking money out of the
tax base.
It's not.
It's the same rules that applyto a private landowner.
I wish we could be tax exempt.

(24:45):
It would be really nice becausewe are doing good work and we
can use all the help we get onthis.
We, you know, we can use allthe help we get on this.
But but and and we do have.
We have had some localcounselors on some councils, you
know say exactly what you weresaying, but you know it's that's
that's a process where we'retrying to educate counselors on

(25:08):
what's going on.

Speaker 3 (25:09):
So, doug, you mentioned you were on the
fundraising committee as well.
Is that what the funds areraised for is to pay the
property taxes in those areas?
Is that part of the funds it is.

Speaker 4 (25:19):
So, yeah, when we're raising money, I mean, our
biggest expense is managinginvasive species and I hope I'm
not wrong on this, but I thinkthis year we're looking at about
$45,000 to control invasivespecies and in some cases we are
hiring licensed pesticide orherbicide applicators to go out,

(25:42):
because things like buckthornand phragmites and dog
strangling vine, if you don'tspray it it just keeps coming
back, Like if you cut abuckthorn down, you'll have 20
stems next year you have to cutthe stem and treat it, and so
that's very finicky.
Now we have volunteer workparties.
As I said, most of ourorganization is volunteer based,

(26:03):
so we will have a work party ata certain property.
We'll say, okay, next Saturday,meet at nine, we all come out,
we cut things down, we treatthem, we do whatever fix fences,
put up signage, whatever weneed to do.
But yeah, that's the biggestsingle expense.
Then taxes on property areanother.
Sometimes, like some of thefairs and public events we

(26:25):
attend, have a fee.
So the actual operating costsyou know a big chunk of it is
the management of the land andthen things like signage.
You know all the propertiesneed signs and, yeah, just a
whole bunch of different things.

Speaker 3 (26:44):
So, doug, what kind of activities are allowed on
these 2,200 acres that you have?
So, for the general public, youmentioned about some of the
properties that people havedeveloped and they had trails on
it and things like that.
What kind of activities areallowed on a lot of the
properties that people havedeveloped and they had trails on
it and things like that?
What kind of activities areallowed on a lot of the
properties that you have?

Speaker 4 (26:59):
Yeah, well, it varies a little from property to
property.
So we have four properties thatare wide open to the public,
with trails, and basically youcan go for walks and take
pictures, go birdwatching, thatsort of thing.
We don't allow vehicles on theproperties, we don't allow the
removal of things from theproperties.

(27:21):
One of those four properties istemporarily closed right now
because it's the Lori LawsonOutdoor Education Center north
of Coburg, because it isprimarily ash forest and almost
all the ash have died from theemerald ash borer and right now

(27:41):
it's hazardous because the treesare coming down all over the
trail.
So we've closed it right nowand we're working right now on
hiring a company to come in anddrop all the trees that are near
the trails so they'll be safeto walk again.
So that's an example of sort ofan emergency expenditure we
didn't anticipate.
It's also a very graphicexample of the dangers of
invasive species.

(28:04):
But yeah, most of the properties, some of the properties are
basically closed to the publicbecause they are really
sensitive in physical nature ordangerous.
One of them is a giant alderswamp and if you got into that
thing and couldn't figure outhow to get out, you know the
whole our property is about 110acres but the whole swamp is

(28:27):
about 600 acres and if you gotinto that thing, I've done
biological studies on thatproperty and it is really hard
to move around.
It's not even safe in thewinter because it doesn't really
freeze hard, and so that's onewe basically don't encourage
anyone to go in.
But other properties that arenot broadly open can be visited,

(28:48):
but we ask that people contactus first so we can share like a
map and the conditions and theissues on that property.
We also operate field tripsevery year which are open to
anybody.
They sign up for them, but wego to some of these properties
where we don't have broad accessto.

(29:08):
But we'll take them in and seethem and they're really popular.
We have anywhere from 20 to 40people showing up on our walks.
Right, sorry, no, go ahead.
Oh, I was just going to say ina few cases we have properties
that were donated by landownerswho are still living on that
land and they have said thatwhile they're still living there
they would prefer it not to beopen to the public, but once

(29:31):
they have sold it, you know weare free to do that and one of
the other limitations is, youknow, we do have to be
responsible and make sure wehave proper trails.
Like you know, they aren'tgoing to be paved or anything,
but they need to not behazardous.
So that's a financial issue too, and that, again, is one of the
areas.
If we can raise funds, you know, we can improve the trail

(29:51):
systems that we have.

Speaker 3 (29:54):
So no ATVing or snowmobiling allowed, or the
snowmobile or ATV trails gothrough the properties at all.

Speaker 4 (30:00):
Correct.
Okay.
Now that's not to say, forexample, there's, there's a well
, there's ATV clubs all over theplace.
If someone were to donate aproperty to us that had an eight
, you know, an established ATVtrail, we wouldn't necessarily
stop that.
You know, we've right, wehaven't had that happen yet, but
I mean, I could see us.
Well, I think it's good to workwith everybody, really.

(30:21):
And, yeah, and the atvcommunity, um, you know it, when
it first started it was kind ofa wild west situation, but many
of the atv clubs are quiteorganized and they're quite
conscious of trail damage andthings.
So you know, I could us working.
If we get a property that hasyou know, one of these ATV club
trails going through it, that'snot a deal breaker at all.

Speaker 3 (30:42):
Right, yeah, I recall one group, mark and his group.
They were dirt bikers thatwanted access to another managed
property as well because theyfelt that they could go in and
all their work would clear thetrails up for them to allow it
to be used.

(31:02):
If they were allowed to havesay a two, three-week kind of
period, their ATVs would be inthere, their dirt bikes would
clean those trails up prettygood so that they were very
accessible for everybody else,whether they were walkers or
horseback riding and things likethat.
But everybody manages things asbest they see in the best
interest of the public or theusers that are looking at these

(31:24):
properties.

Speaker 4 (31:25):
Yeah, and I think too , you know, our core thing here
is it isn't.
We're here to save land, and asecondary thing is what we can
do on it Right, which is alittle different than, say,
parks, which have a strongerobligation to provide
opportunities within land Right.

(31:45):
Our primary goal, first andforemost, is acquiring land and
ensuring it's good for all time,and ensuring it's good for all
time.

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(35:53):
around five or six cups of tea.
Hey, thanks for listening Backto the episode.
So some of these ones youmentioned that they've closed
off because it's basically anash forest.
I know that there used to be aboard member for the South
Central Fish and WildlifeAssociation that essentially
would go into properties likethat and clean up all those

(36:15):
trails for organizations likethe Northumberland Land Trust at
no charge.
But what happened with them wasthey just didn't have any work
to do, so the associationeventually folded and they had
chainsaws and brush cutters andall that kind of stuff.
They worked directly.
They would work with theMinistry of Natural Resources
and, to be honest, I know that Isat in on some meetings before

(36:38):
I was minister for naturalresources there where some of
the people would say, becausepeople like that were
volunteering their time, and theperson beside me, not knowing
who I was, doesn't he realizethat every time these volunteers
come in they take away one ofour jobs?
And it was just to me like waita sec, these volunteers come in
, they take away one of our jobs.
And it was just to me like waita sec, no, that's not the way

(36:59):
it should be.
So you know.
So South Central would go intothe Bexley Deer Yard and every
year wait and work directly withthe Ministry of Natural
Resources and a lot of they dida lot of the oh, the non-quant
forest area.
They would do trail cutting andstuff like that at no charge,
because that was what they lovedto do.
What stuff like that?
At no charge?
Because that was what theyloved to do.
What ended up happening wasthey had no jobs.
So it just kind of faded away.
And I don't know if there's anymore organizations like that.

(37:20):
But if you have to contractsomebody out to do the work, I
guess there isn't.

Speaker 4 (37:24):
I think I'm not aware of a group that would do that,
although I'd sure like to hearfrom them if they're out there.
But I think one of the issuestoo and this is sort of the bane
of our world today is the wholeliability issue, and everybody
goes nuts about liability.
So when we hire that out, we'rehiring someone who has
insurance.
It's sort of the safety and theissues are all on them, and we

(37:52):
do, I should say too, when wehave our volunteer work parties,
we do have members who arechainsaw certified and and we do
cut some of this stuff downourselves, Right, Uh, but this
is a big job.
This is.
There are hundreds of ash treesthat need to be dropped.
Right, it's, it's, it's.
You know, it's not a solid ashforest, but it's, it's the

(38:13):
dominant component.
Yeah, and and and, like so manyof our ash forests, they're
just standing skeletons now.

Speaker 3 (38:20):
It's terrible, it's pretty sad.
Yeah, it is Really sad.
Yeah, it's a shame.
Yeah, so yeah, but you know,when you have to hire out those
individuals with the insuranceand all that, they have bills to
pay.
So it's something that you'vegot to have more fundraisers for
bills to pay.
So it's, it's something thatyou got to have more fundraisers
for no, exactly, exactly.

Speaker 4 (38:38):
So what other sort of things are are allowed or not
allowed on the properties anddoug well, um, I mean at this
point, basically it's it's meantfor sort of quiet recreation,
you know.
So mainly people are going forwalks in the properties, they're
taking pictures.
We have a pretty strong artistcommunity in Northumberland and

(39:04):
we've had some art days on theproperties where people have
come out and done paintings andthings like this on our
properties.
We don't really have at thispoint in time.
We don't have a lot of capacityto govern other uses.
That is not to say there mightnot be, but we generally go with
the premise of, you know, noextractive activities and and so

(39:33):
mushroom pickers are notallowed in and that sort of
thing.
That's a good question.
You might have got me on thatone.

Speaker 3 (39:41):
What about fiddleheads and wild leeks and
all the other great things thatare out there and available?

Speaker 4 (39:46):
We prefer not to have that happening just because
there aren't a lot of like,ostrich fern is the main fern
for fiddleheads and we don'thave that much of it around.
So we, we would uh, ask peoplenot to pick stuff on the
properties, right, um, because,as I said before, I mean these
are really designed to protectnature and and in so much of our

(40:10):
landscape.
Now, uh, you know, urban sprawlis a terrible problem and,
right, you, you know, like youlive in Durham and I'm old
enough to remember when youcould tell Pickering from Ajax,
from Whitby, from Oshawa, ohyeah, and now it's just a
continuous development.
And Northumberland is next, andyou know, we see, we're seeing

(40:31):
that now sort of the whole thingof country homes are going in
everywhere.
So our landscape is gettingheavily fractured and we see, we
the land trust.
See, this is our golden moment,because a lot of people who own
these larger tracts of land aregetting to the point where
they're not going to be hereforever.
They want to save that land andI think this window of the next

(40:53):
10 years or so there's going tobe, this is going to be our
best opportunity to to receivethese parcels from, from willing
donors, right, and so we wantto get ahead of that and protect
as much of our high value landsas we can, because the you know
the population onslaught it'shappening everywhere.

(41:14):
I live in Brighton, which hasfive traffic lights, and we're
building 150 subdivisions.
Now it's changing.
So we're trying to get ahead ofthis and secure as much of this
as we can so that 50 or 100years from now, north Thurman is
still a green county.

(41:35):
We have one of the highestforest covers of any county in
southern Ontario 50 or 100 yearsfrom now, you know North.
Thurman is still a green county.
We have one of the highestforest covers of any county in
southern.

Speaker 3 (41:43):
Ontario, and we really want to keep it that way,
right?
You know, yeah Well, brighton'sa very active spot and growing
in leaps and bounds, and ofcourse, they got the big Apple
Fest.
When is that?
September or?

Speaker 4 (41:50):
August.
Yes, that's right.
Yeah, I think it's the third orfourth weekend in September.

Speaker 3 (41:54):
Yeah, so it's pretty active.
Now, Doug, are there hours thatare allowed to access the
trails or the properties.

Speaker 4 (42:03):
You can go in at any time.
One of our fundraisingactivities is what's called the
Birding Marathon and we haveavid birders visit each of our
properties for a day in May, andso on those days some of us are
heading in at two in themorning, you know, to listen for
owls and whippoorwills andthings like that.
Now, most people have a greaterlevel of sanity than that and

(42:27):
they're going in at normal times, but it's open anytime.
But you're probably the same,jerry, but I love being out at
first light because it's just,it's like you have the world to
yourself and it's so busy andactive for that first hour or
two.
Yeah, uh, and I, I, I find thatlike just the best thing for
mental health is to get out whenit's just starting to get light

(42:48):
and watch that transition.

Speaker 3 (42:50):
but no, yeah, anyway, any any hours anytime you want
to go, you can so you're stillgetting a lot of whippoorwills,
are you?

Speaker 4 (42:56):
Well, there are parts of our county where they're
still fairly common.
There's many areas where theyaren't and it's mostly habitat
related but where there's stillsort of sandy areas with a mix
of forest cover and openings.
They're there.
So, like the Ganaraska and theNorthumberland County Forest
have some pretty healthypopulations still, but in many,

(43:18):
many areas they've largelydisappeared, mainly because we
cut all the forests down by 1900.
And up until about the 40s 50sthere was lots of successional
habitat that whippoorwills liked.
But a lot of that's grown upand the habitats have just aged
out for whippoorwills like.
But a lot of that's grown upand the habitats have just aged
out for whippoorwills.
Many, many, many cases.

(43:40):
You know, when a species is introuble it's often habitat
that's at the core of theproblem and that again
reinforces what we're doing.
You know I mean anyone who'sinvolved in environmental stuff
it's a pretty depressing worldout there sometimes because we
have a lot of creatures insevere decline and, as I

(44:00):
sometimes say and I hate to putit this way but whatever
survives, our folly will atleast have a place to stay.
That's what we do.
We can't control it all, but wecan control that.

Speaker 3 (44:12):
Yeah, can't control it all, but we can control that.
Yeah.
So, doug, do you have like achief forester or a property
manager or who manages or takescares or makes the decisions for
forests and cuts, like youmentioned, the ash cut and
things like that?

Speaker 4 (44:22):
Okay, so, yeah, so our properties, the way we work
it is we have volunteer stewardswho are responsible for each
property and they try to visitmonthly and so they're looking
for things like people dumpinggarbage, broken fences, any
vandalism, which is rare.
Thankfully, they're alsolooking at.
You know, say, they go in thewoods and they find a patch of

(44:43):
dog strangling vine, so they'lleither dig it out themselves or
they'll map it so that when webring a sprayer in they can do
it.
We do have two professionalforesters One of them is on the
stewardship committee andanother is a steward for a
property and they have helped uswhen we were going to a couple
of our properties have red pineplantations, right, and they're

(45:04):
being cut every 15 years or so,thinned and converting it over
basically to a native forest,and so they've gone in and
helped mark the trees forcutting and, and then we hire a
company to come in and take themout, right, but we do the
marking ourselves and selectingthe trees where the skidder
trails are going to be, all thatsort of thing.
Yeah, this is, as I say, likeI've been on a bunch of

(45:27):
different boards over the years.
I love this board.
We have such a diverse group ofpeople, everybody likes each
other.
We're all on the same mission,you know, and it's really
effective.
And I think you know, from aconservation point of view, I do
not think there is a morecost-effective or actually
effective way to do this thanland trusts.
We're uncomplicated, you know.

(45:49):
It's just a nice simple missionSave land, manage it wisely.

Speaker 3 (45:54):
Yeah Well, I used to know there was a chief forester
for the M&R Natural Resourcesthat worked out of Lindsay, bob
Penwell, bless his soul, and heused to manage.
Afterwards he would manageanother forest that you
mentioned.
But M&R doesn't get involved inhelping maintain or look after
or give advice on any of theseforests at all.

Speaker 4 (46:17):
No, I don't think they do that anymore.
Maybe I'm wrong, but we have afew people there.
There was the I'm going to getthe name wrong.
I think it was theNorthumberland tree planters
which many of them were retiredM&R.
People Like M&R has gotten outof a lot of this stuff, right,
they farm it out private, and sowe've had a lot of people who
used to work in forestry for theministry who went into it

(46:38):
privately, and we're actuallylooking at one of our properties
where we might plant an areathat's about I guess it's about
seven acres, five acres and wemay put that in.
So, you know, we'll consultwith foresters for that.
But, as I say, we have twoactual foresters who are retired
and, as far as I can tell, aforester never really retires.

(47:01):
I think they just startplanting trees on their own time
, yeah, but so we have somepretty skilled people who can
help us, which is something wevery much rely on.

Speaker 3 (47:13):
Right, which is something we very much rely on
Right Now.
One of the other ones that BobPenwell, bless his soul, was
managing and you mentionedanother managed forest property
but that one charges fees forpeople to use the property and
so they generate quite a bit ofrevenue from, to be honest, from
snowmobilers Well, I don't saysnowmobilers probably, but

(47:35):
ATVers and a lot of dirt bikersand horseback riders and
actually hunters will go in inthe fall and generate a lot of
revenue for those ones.
Is there fees involved toutilize any of the properties?

Speaker 4 (47:47):
No, there's not.
We very much want for theproperties where it's safe for
people to go in, and safe bothfor the wildlife and the people.
We don't want to put a barrierup to that.
We very much want people tojust be able to go for a nice
walk without having to pony up.
And I realize, you know, we'drather raise the money another

(48:08):
way than sort of nickel and dimethe people who want to get out
in nature, and we do.
You know we have a couple ofdifferent fundraisers.
We have the Fall Gala, which isin October in Coburg, with a
good speaker and silent auctionsand that sort of thing.
And we have the Spring BirdingMarathon, which this year

(48:29):
brought in I think it was$13,000, which was our best ever
.
Good, but we rely on donationsand and it it never fails to
amaze me.
Just to give you an example,the, the bitty creek wetland
that we co-purchased with ducks,unlimited.
We had never taken a step thatbig before.
We needed to raise a hundredand ninety thousand dollars,
which is a lot for us, right,and and we were sort of humming

(48:52):
and harring going.
You know this is going to be abig deal.
How do we do this?
And and we sort of humming andhawing going.
You know this is going to be abig deal.
How do we do this?
And, and we sort of put out thecall and in six weeks we raised
over the target.
Very good, just blows me away.
And I think it tells us thepublic is behind conservation.
You know people want to do thisand and so you know, and we've

(49:15):
had people tell us that theyhave left money for us in their
will.
So down the road we may seethat and and uh.
But donations, large and small,are what run us, and and uh, uh
.
We're always happy to receivethose.
I just want to point that outvery good.

Speaker 3 (49:32):
So, uh, now, organizations like invasive
species Species Ontario theyhave pockets of funds for
Phragmites and things like that.
Do you make applications forthose?
Yes, we do.

Speaker 4 (49:50):
Okay, good with it.
But you know, in addition tosort of running the current
operation, we want to expand, wewant to be, you know, we want
to triple in size in 10 years.
We want to try and get as muchland as we can, and we're

(50:12):
cautious.
But we also take the approachlike, let's get the land and
we'll find a way to raise themoney to support it, and because
, if you sit there waiting forthe money to come in, oh, we've
got enough, now we can take onthis one.
We're not going to win thisgame.
We need to get the land now,before it's all carved up and
turned into housing.
And so we're very driven inthat regard and our attitude is

(50:36):
okay, we're going to get theland and we'll figure a way out
to fund it.
And so far, so good, very good.
But that's a testament to oursupporters.
I can't get over the vibe, if Icould call it that, when we go
on these hikes with people, theylove it.
Everybody knows each other,we're all talking, everyone is
so excited at what is happeningand I think it's it's a place of

(51:00):
hope.
You know, and I think peoplefeel that because it's it's the
world is a difficult place rightnow in so many ways and people
come out and go on a walk inthese woods and they meet the
donors.
Most of these donors, they'renot rolling in money.
They're often quite humblepeople.
In fact, they're all humblepeople to be honest.
And they're giving this thingout of generosity, not for

(51:25):
accolades.
It's because they know thiswill survive, and I just think
that's just the happiest thinggoing.

Speaker 3 (51:32):
Very good.
So these hikes and walks thatyou take, are they published or
do you do mushroom walks?
Because I get people asking meall the time to do a mushroom
walk and no, I don't providethat service.
It's just because I'm one ofthose obsessive compulsives that
if I don't know all the detailswell, what's that mushroom I

(51:56):
don't know?
I would well, what's thatmushroom I don't know?
I would not feel comfortablehaving that ability.
So if you have experts, I knowthat Toronto has the largest
mycological organization,probably in the province, but
they do walks as well.
But do you have walks and takepeople out for things like that
as well?

Speaker 4 (52:14):
Yeah, we do have walks and take people out for
things like that as well.
Yeah, we do so we're sort ofexpanding our programs of going
out into the public.
But if you go to our website,which is nltrustca or just
Google Northumberland Land Trust, you'll see our activities.
Just touch on that tab andit'll show the scheduled walks.

(52:35):
Now I think we don't have anygoing on in July.
The next one is on a property Iown that I'm going to be
donating and that's, I think, inthe third week of August, and
it's to look at monarchs,because it's right on the
lakeshore, outside the gate ofPresque Isle Park and we're
going to be looking for monarchs.
But some of our hikes arefocused on a theme like

(52:55):
mushrooms or butterflies orbirds.
Others are just broad, generaland crisp nature walks.
But most you know, we had amoth outing, for example, on one
of our properties which is atnight.
You put up a black light on awhite sheet and you get all the
moths.
That was back in early June Ithink, and it was a big success.
And so we do some specialtywalks and then just some general

(53:19):
walks and that's an area wereally want to keep expanding on
as our resources permit.
But we do have a lot of expertsin our area.
Like they might be quoteamateur, but they know their
stuff and we tap into them asmuch as we can to lead these
field trips and they're verynice, you know it's good fun.

Speaker 3 (53:40):
Yeah Well, you mentioned about the monarch
butterflies and it's interesting.
I know that there's been a hugesurge and a lot of people
wanting to help out, and Ihappen to be in Thunder Bay.
I was doing a speech in ThunderBay and a friend Carl Sharp his
name invited me over.
He said Jerry, you want to comeover to the house tonight?
We're having a blooming.

(54:01):
And I said you're having a what?

Speaker 5 (54:03):
He said yeah, I'm having a blooming.

Speaker 3 (54:06):
And I said what's a blooming?
And he said, well, I have anight blooming primrose and it's
going to open tonight.
And I said, really.
I said sure.
So we went over and I watchedand it was quite amazing to see.
But the one thing, he wasshowing me the gardens and they
had a milkweed there.
I said, oh, you've got milkweedgrowing.

(54:27):
And he says, yeah, we're tryingto help out and we're part of
the garden club here in ThunderBay.
And so everybody was plantingmilkweed seeds in order to help
monarch butterflies up that way.
And I said, oh, yeah, I said wegot into the conversation and I
was shocked that they werecharging $10 a seed for a

(54:47):
milkweed plant in Thunder Bay.
So lo and behold, I went andthat fall I said, carl, I will
take care of your milkweedrequests.
That fall I went and picked awhole bunch of milkweed pods and
mailed them up to Carl to makesure that they had an abundant
supply of milkweed for the area,just to assist monarch
butterflies.

Speaker 4 (55:08):
Yeah, $10 a seed.
You're not going to plant awhole lot.

Speaker 3 (55:11):
Well, I was shocked yeah.

Speaker 4 (55:12):
Yeah, that's a lot.

Speaker 3 (55:13):
Yeah, it is.
But you know the big thingthere is.
People were willing to put $10out to buy a seed to help
monarch butterflies.

Speaker 4 (55:20):
Yeah, Some of our properties.
By the way, we manage openfield areas.
Some of them are actual prairietype sites.
We have some long tall grassprairie sites here in
Northumberland, like native tallgrass prairie, oh really.
And we also have old hay fieldsand things like that and
they're managed for bobolinksand meadowlarks and monarchs and
all this sort of stuff, right,so that's part of I should have

(55:43):
mentioned that's.
Some of the things we spendmoney on is like mowing down
these fields in the fall so theydon't turn into shrubs in
succession, and manage them asgrassland areas, because that
grassland, the grasslandcommunity, is just a tiny
fraction of what it was 50 yearsago and all the other species
that are familiar withgrasslands have declined as a

(56:03):
result.
So, yeah, and monarchs are oneof the beneficiaries of that.

Speaker 3 (56:09):
Yeah, so do you get shrikes out there as well.

Speaker 4 (56:13):
Oh, please, I wish Well loggerhead shrikes.
When I was a kid, I grew up inPeterborough, I could go on a
bike ride for an afternoon andgo by three or four pairs.
Now they're largely restrictedto an alvar north of Napanee and
north of Lindsay at Cardin, andjust a handful of pairs outside
, and so I have never seen aloggerhead shrike on one of our

(56:36):
properties, although it'sconceivably possible.
But they're so rare now thatseeing a migrant is really
unusual.
But northern shrikes, which arethe boreal forest counterpart,
we do see those in thewintertime, right, and they're
of course the ones that you knowcatch.
They're sort of like a hawkwith a robin's feet, and so they
can't grip the prey, so theystick it on a thorn or a barbed

(57:01):
wire fence or even in the crotchof ranch, so they'll kill a
mouse or a vole and wedge it ina tree.
So if any listeners ever see amouse hanging dead in a tree,
that's what did it, and it'skind of neat actually like
especially.
Well, young kids really likethat, because it's got the right
amount of gore to attract you,right.

Speaker 3 (57:17):
Yeah Well, I was the minister that donated the
property for the car snorts ofLindsay.

Speaker 4 (57:22):
Oh really.

Speaker 3 (57:23):
Yeah, and I was out there on the bus trip when we
were going to look forloggerheads.

Speaker 5 (57:28):
Good for you, yeah.

Speaker 3 (57:30):
Yeah, so yeah, I knew it well.

Speaker 4 (57:40):
But well, doug, tell us how can people find out more
details or get in touch with youor find out how they can access
the properties that you dealwith?
The best vehicle is go to ourwebsite, nltrustca, and all the
information you need to contactus is there and you know you can
send in an email.
You can look at the properties.
The ones that are open to thepublic are indicated on the
website and there's directionshow to get there.

(58:01):
And we would just love to fieldany inquiries people have and,
of course, we would love toreceive any donations of land or
money people would like to give.
I have to say that I'm on thefundraising committee.

Speaker 3 (58:14):
Well, so your next walk is a property out in August
, I think you said, and maybe,if you have the dates or any
information, you could justhighlight that for people.

Speaker 4 (58:24):
I don't have the date in my head.
I think it's about August 20th.
It's on the website under theoutings and it's just a walk
around.
I have a very small littleproperty just outside the gate
of Presque Isle Park.
It used to be a mini putt golfcourse and I bought it a decade
ago, but it has endangered andthreatened species on it.

(58:45):
It's very small but it's agolden property.
It's got part of the PresqueIsle Bay wetland in it and it's
also a major monarch stagingplace.
When the weather conditions areright Like I've had over a
thousand monarchs on theproperty in some days, and so
it's I like to build them assort of general walks.
That way, if it's not a bigmonarch day, we don't look like

(59:06):
we failed, but you will seemonarchs and lots of other
things.

Speaker 3 (59:09):
So what day of the week is the walk planned for?
Do you know?

Speaker 4 (59:13):
I believe it's on a weekend.
Most of our walks are onweekends, yeah, and I just I
don't think I'm able to look itup while I'm on the computer
here with you.
That's okay, but if they, justgo to the website.
They'll see it.
And it's good to check ourwebsite periodically because
sometimes we add in new walkswhen an opportunity comes up to

(59:34):
see something or do something,and so it's too good to keep
going back.
And we've got profiles of allthe properties and stuff on our
governance and our board membersand all this sort of stuff and
it tells the story of theorganization, which is a very,
in my mind, a very exciting,heartwarming story, because

(59:56):
we're just moving in the rightway and we're doing great things
.

Speaker 3 (01:00:01):
Well, doug, I very much appreciate you taking the
time to inform us about theNorthumberland Land Trust, the
properties and the ability forpeople to get out and see some
nature, and the fact that youprovide walks and, quite frankly
, in August, that weekend inAugust where you might be able
to see a large number ofmonarchs, which would be great
for a lot of people.
I think it's just another waythat people are learning and

(01:00:22):
finding other stuff that'sinteresting out there under the
canopy, and thanks for joiningus today, doug.

Speaker 4 (01:00:27):
Well, thank you so much for your interest.
Really appreciate it.

Speaker 3 (01:00:29):
Very good.

Speaker 6 (01:00:50):
How did a small-town sheet metal mechanic come to
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I'm your host, steve Nitzwicky,and you'll find out about that
and a whole lot more on theOutdoor Journal Radio Network's
newest podcast, diaries of aLodge Owner.
But this podcast will be morethan that.
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(01:01:14):
introduce you to a ton of greatpeople, share their stories of
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Speaker 8 (01:01:25):
Meanwhile we're sitting there bobbing along
trying to figure out how tocatch a bass and we both decided
one day we were going to be ontelevision doing a fishing show.

Speaker 6 (01:01:35):
My hands get sore a little bit when I'm reeling in
all those bass in the summertime, but that might be for more
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Speaker 4 (01:01:41):
punching you so confidently, you said hey, pat
have you ever eaten a drum?

Speaker 6 (01:01:46):
Find Diaries of a Lodge Owner now on Spotify,
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