Episode 96: The Hidden World of Responsible Forest Management

What happens in our forests when no one is watching? The answer matters more than you might think. In this enlightening conversation with Monika Patel, President and CEO of Forest Stewardship Council (FSC) Canada, we journey into the world of sustainable forestry certification and discover how a small symbol on your paper products connects to a global movement for forest protection.

Monika shares the fascinating origin story of FSC, born from the disappointment of the 1992 Rio Earth Summit when a diverse coalition of concerned citizens, from environmentalists to industry representatives, decided to create their own market-based solution to combat deforestation. Their vision? A certification system that would allow consumers to choose products from responsibly managed forests, creating economic incentives for sustainable practices.

We explore how FSC certification works through its dual approach: forest management certification that ensures forests meet the ten principles of responsible stewardship, and chain of custody certification that tracks products throughout the supply chain. With approximately 46 million hectares certified across Canada (17 million in Ontario alone), FSC's impact extends from industrial forests to community woodlands and even maple syrup operations.

The conversation delves into practical challenges facing modern forestry—from balancing moose and caribou habitat needs to addressing forest fires, pine beetle infestations, and climate change adaptation. Monica explains how FSC is embracing innovative solutions, including blockchain technology for supply chain traceability and exploring how certified forests might contribute to Canada's "30 by 30" conservation goals.

Want to support healthy forests? Look for the FSC logo—a check mark with a tree—on products you purchase. This simple consumer choice sends a powerful message through the supply chain and helps ensure our forests remain "for all, forever."

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
How did a small-town sheet metal mechanic come to
build one of Canada's mosticonic fishing lodges?
I'm your host, steve Nitzwicky,and you'll find out about that
and a whole lot more on theOutdoor Journal Radio Network's
newest podcast, diaries of aLodge Owner.
But this podcast will be morethan that.
Every week on Diaries of aLodge Owner, I'm going to

(00:25):
introduce you to a ton of greatpeople, share their stories of
our trials, tribulations andinspirations, learn and have
plenty of laughs along the way.

Speaker 2 (00:36):
Meanwhile we're sitting there bobbing along
trying to figure out how tocatch a bass and we both decided
one day we were going to be ontelevision doing a fishing show.

Speaker 1 (00:46):
My hands get sore a little bit when I'm reeling in
all those bass in the summertime, but that's might be for more
fishing than it was punching youso confidently.
You said hey Pat have you evereaten a drum?
Find Diaries of a Lodge Ownernow on Spotify, apple Podcasts
or wherever you get your podcast.

Speaker 4 (01:13):
As the world gets louder and louder, the lessons
of our natural world becomeharder and harder to hear, but
they are still available tothose who know where to listen.
But they are still available tothose who know where to listen.
I'm Jerry Ouellette and I washonoured to serve as Ontario's
Minister of Natural Resources.
However, my journey into thewoods didn't come from politics.

(01:34):
Rather, it came from my time inthe bush and a mushroom.
In 2015, I was introduced tothe birch-hungry fungus known as
chaga, a tree conch withcenturies of medicinal
applications used by Indigenouspeoples all over the globe.
After nearly a decade ofharvest, use, testimonials and

(02:02):
research, my skepticism hasfaded to obsession and I now
spend my life dedicated toimproving the lives of others
through natural means.
But that's not what the show isabout.
My pursuit of this strangemushroom and my passion for the
outdoors has brought me to theplaces and around the people
that are shaped by our naturalworld.
On Outdoor Journal Radio'sUnder the Canopy podcast, I'm

(02:22):
going to take you along with meto see the places, meet the
people that will help you findyour outdoor passion and help
you live a life close to natureand under the canopy.
So join me today for anothergreat episode and hopefully we
can inspire a few more people tolive their lives under the
canopy.

(02:42):
To live their lives under thecanopy.
Okay, as always, we want tothank all our listeners out
there across Canada, the UnitedStates, all around the world, as
usual Switzerland, ghana,trinidad, tobago and all the
other places that people listento us, which we really
appreciate.
And, of course, if you everhave any questions or any

(03:04):
comments or need someinformation, don't be afraid,
afraid to reach out for us we'llsee what we can do about
getting them answered on the airor a program that you're
looking forward to hear about.
Now I have to tell you I was outagain this morning running my
chocolate lab gunners his nameand but it was wet because we've
had quite a few days of wetweather.
But I can tell that the the mystinging nettle patch is doing

(03:28):
very well, as well as my mintpatch.
I've got a bunch of mintgrowing as well out in the trail
, along the trail as well.
It looks like potentially it'sa little bit early, but I know
I'm about two weeks ahead.
Potentially, but possiblyreishi looks like it might be

(03:49):
coming up now, but I won't beable to tell for a little bit
till, because it's just kind ofbudding now and where it is is
on hemlock trees and I canusually tell.
But it was pretty wet out thereand a little bit slow growing
and usually not for about twoweeks.
And then we start to see reishireally rarely coming out.
But it's that time of yearwhere the bugs and the ticks are

(04:09):
out.
So we're making sure that we'recovered and everything is taken
care of in those areas and sofar, so good.
But you got to watch out.
Now today we have a specialguest the president and CEO of
the Forest Stewardship Council.
Welcome to the program, monica.

Speaker 5 (04:27):
Thank you.
Thank you for having me.

Speaker 4 (04:29):
Oh, not a problem at all.
So, Monica, tell us a bit aboutyourself, a bit about your
background.
You know things like thatWhereabouts you're from, and
things like that, so ourinternational listeners know.

Speaker 5 (04:38):
Sure sounds great.
Yeah, so, as mentioned, I'mMonica Patel with the Forest
Stewardship Council of Canada.
I started out I was born inMontreal, but grew up in Toronto
and spent most of my life here,and, in terms of my
professional career, I've spentthe last two decades focused on
forestry, and sustainableforestry particularly, but I've

(05:02):
also had a few senior roles withboth national and international
levels, including as ourregional director for the
European office for a shortperiod of time, leading, as well
as our global membershipengagement dialogues across a
diverse sector of stakeholdersand groups worldwide.
So I've spent a little bit oftime kind of working on the

(05:25):
international scale recently,but prior to that, I had spent
quite a bit of time, of course,in the space of marketing,
communications and publicrelations for various nonprofits
through the agency model, andmost recently I think it was in
2022, I was also named theCanadian Forest Industry's Top
10 Under 40 as well.
So I spent a little bit of timein this space and hopefully I

(05:48):
get to tell you some more aboutit today.

Speaker 4 (05:50):
Very good, and where did you get your background in
the forest industry?

Speaker 5 (05:54):
Actually, funny enough, I'm not a forester.
People are usually surprisedabout that.
A lot of my knowledge hasactually come quite hands on
through the Forest StewardshipCouncil and I've spent a lot of
time in the forest, in fact,actually, I was just there in a
forest a few days ago and a lotof what I've learned is from
stakeholders from the economicside of things, from the social

(06:18):
side, the indigenous side aswell as the environmental side,
and so it's been a lot ofhands-on learning here.

Speaker 4 (06:24):
Right, very good.
So, and what forest were you injust recently?

Speaker 5 (06:30):
I was in Ottawa last week, and so the closest FSC
certified forest is, as a groupcertificate of, it's called the
Eastern Ontario Model Forest andthey have quite a few FSC
certified community forest aswell as smallholders and others,
and we were at South NationConservation taking a look at
some of the amazing work thatthey have done with restoration,

(06:52):
conservation, with wetlands andother spaces there, so it's
pretty incredible.

Speaker 4 (06:57):
Oh, very good, yeah, I know, I did.
When I was minister I did somework out and we did some
preservation of the Alfred Bogout that way and just outside of
Ottawa, all right, and yeah, itwas.
I remember well, I have to tella story.
So it was within a week of mebecoming the minister, maybe two
, and there was an announcementat the Alfred Bog which I wanted

(07:20):
to make sure I did.
Anyways, there was an OPSUstrike on at the time, so it was
only management operating, alot of the principals and I
think the deputy minister wasriding with me and we had two
managers heading out to theevent.
And in the Alfred Bog they havea special dragonfly.

(07:41):
I believe it's called the.
Oh, I think it's a Jefferson'sdragonfly.
It's a rare breed that's foundand it seems to be only in that
area or identified in that area.
So I was asking you know?
The deputy minister says youknow, I understand that you know
that the it's probably not theJefferson's, but that's the name
that came to hand pretty quickthere.

(08:02):
Anyways, that this raredragonfly is in the Alfred Bogg.
And I was a little bit of ajokester at the time and I asked
the deputy.
I said you know.
So I understand that you knowit's going well inside the
hatchery in the dragonfly, theministry dragonfly hatchery.
And I was wondering, you know,if he had any updates on what

(08:23):
was happening with the dragonflyhatchery in the ministry.
And of course the managers atthe front knew that I was
yanking his chain and the deputyminister bought hook line and
sinker into it and he didn't.
I don't know.
Oh, district managers such andsuch, do you know anything about
the dragonfly hatchery andwhether the special strain of
dragonflies is coming along?

(08:44):
No, deputy, I'm sorry, I don'tknow.
And they're trying not to breakout laughing and it was just a
little bit of a kind of breakthe ice, as the minister and the
deputy minister, but I don'tknow if he appreciated it too
much because he took it maybe alittle bit too far, but it was
kind of interesting.
But so you're up in the Ottawaarea in a forest up there, yeah,

(09:05):
and it was very good.
So tell us about what theForest Stewardship Council is.
For a lot of people who've notbeen involved in the forestry
industry they wouldn't know.
So kind of give us a bit of abackground, monica, and give us
a little bit more information.

Speaker 5 (09:18):
Absolutely.
So maybe I'll start off withjust kind of saying that you
know, as the Forest StewardshipCouncil, we consider ourselves
as a sustainable forestrysolution to not only help
protect healthy and resilientforests, but we want to do that
not for all and forever.
And you know we use thatparticular phrase because it's

(09:39):
not just about one group oranother, it's the forest is
meant to be used by so manydifferent people and ultimately
we want it to be there forfuture generations.
So we've always used ourtagline Forest for All Forever
as a great way of describingthat.
And maybe just to take you alittle bit back into history, I
love to kind of share the storyof how FSC came about, because

(10:01):
it starts with a group of people, concerned citizens in the late
80s and 90s.
So picture acid wash jeans, bigpoofy hair a very different era
.
And it's also a time whenpeople were really starting to
grow concerned over tropicaldeforestation.
We started seeing things likeboycotting products sold from

(10:24):
certain regions because theydidn't know or even trust the
source of the wood or the paperthat they were getting.
And it was around 1992 when theUN Earth Summit was held in Rio.
This, you know, this concernedgroup of citizens.
They went there, they had suchhigh hopes for the summit.
They thought it would lead tostricter regulations and

(10:45):
government intervention toreally stop deforestation and
ensure that our forests werereally being properly managed.
And it was kind of unfortunatebecause they went to that event
and what they thought was goingto happen did not happen.
So it was kind of this momentwhere people said, all right, if
no one else is going to do itfor us, let's take it into our

(11:06):
own hands.
And again, this was a verydiverse group.
We had church groups, we hadlabor unions, there was forest
industry, we hadenvironmentalists and indigenous
peoples.
You know they didn'tnecessarily have things in
common every day, but the thingthat brought them together was
the forest and their concerns.
Thing that brought themtogether was the forest and

(11:27):
their concerns and so theirvision.
When they had these discussionsafter this meeting in Rio, they
realized, okay, how do we makethis change happen so that
people can make the decisions?
And so they kind of createdthis concept of a market-based,
voluntary forest certificationthat would let consumers make
the choice.
So consumers would actually beable to, you know, find a
product and realize, okay, thiscame from a really great forest

(11:50):
that's being managed responsibly, and I want to support healthy
forests, and so I'm going tochoose this kind of product.
And ultimately, it was a yearlater in 1993, that the concept
of the Forest StewardshipCouncil was actually born.
And so, you know, it's kind ofinteresting to think it goes
back into a bit of a historicalmoment that it took us from to

(12:12):
get where we are now.
And it's these exact samepeople that got together, these
concerned citizens, that haveactually become a part of FSC's
membership.
And so this is where, till thisday, our membership is very
fundamental to who we are, toour vision, and we rely
completely on this diverse setof economic, social,
environmental and indigenousperspectives to help make us

(12:35):
make our decisions.
They ensure that, you know,we're still have high integrity,
while also creating resilience,for not only for FSC but the
forest itself, while alsocreating resilience for not only
for FSC but the forest itself.

Speaker 4 (12:50):
I'd like to kind of share that bit of background,
because a lot of people don'tknow that we have this
historical story to tell.
So, basically, the FSC is acertification body, an
independent certification body.

Speaker 5 (13:05):
I'm just trying to let our listeners know kind of
give them a better understandingof what we're talking about.
Yeah, and I would say I wouldclarify the wording a little bit
.
So I would say we're acertification system and the
reason I differentiate the wordsis because I'll tell you maybe
a little bit later iscertification bodies are also a
word we use within the world ofFSC that help actually audit and
ensure that companies aremeeting our requirements, but we

(13:26):
can go into that a bit later.
But essentially we're acertification system.

Speaker 4 (13:31):
Okay, and is it who funds, or where does the funding
come from from this agency?

Speaker 5 (13:38):
Yeah, so I mean, the way that it works just to kind
of give you a broad overview isthat we create standards for
responsible forestry and thosestandards are.
Then companies like forestmanagement companies will
voluntarily meet ourrequirements to ensure that
they're managing their forestsmore sustainably.
Through that, they can then useour logo, use market access,

(14:01):
leverage and be able to use ourlogo on products and to answer
your question on the fundingside, through that certification
process, part of the fees thata company pays every year comes
back to FSC and then the otherportion of it goes to their
independent third-party auditor,who is the one that actually
goes in to verify that they'remeeting our rules and

(14:23):
regulations.

Speaker 4 (14:25):
Okay, so kind of give us some of the guidelines of
what it is to become certifiedthen.

Speaker 5 (14:30):
Yeah, so we have two types of certifications.
I'll start with that.
If you think about kind of asupply chain, you think the
forest is where the product iscoming from, so that's the
origin or the natural resource,and then the forest then takes
those products when if they'reharvested, and when they're
harvested throughout the supplychain, so, for example, like a
sawmill, a manufacturer, aprocessor, a distributor and

(14:52):
eventually ends up on the retailshelf.
And so for our certification wehave, as I mentioned, two types
.
The first type is forestmanagement certification.
So this is where forestmanagers can obtain FSC forest
management certification bymeeting what we have called the
10 principles for responsibleforest stewardship, and the

(15:14):
principles vary, so I won't gothrough all 10 with you right
now, but I'll highlight a fewfor you.
So, for example, principle threeis around the protection of
indigenous people's rights.
So, for example, principlethree is around the protection
of indigenous people's rights.
Or you have principle six,around environmental values.
And then you also have thingslike management activities in
principle 10.

(15:35):
So there's a large variety oftopics that are covered under
these 10 principles, and thenthose are globally applicable,
so every forest around the worldabides by these 10.
And then what we do is here, forexample, in Canada, as a
national office of FSC, weactually adopt those rules.
So we then look at it, say, ok,we want to protect Indigenous

(15:56):
people's rights, but we have tomake sure it's modified for what
that specific country needs,what that specific country needs
.
And FSC Canada will thenactually be the ones to sit down
with our Canadian membershipand say, all right, all four
groups of you, how do we createa standard that will make sense
for Canada, based on theseinternational principles?

(16:16):
And so it's a really simplifiedway of looking at it.
But it's to tell you that youknow we are globally consistent
but locally and regionallyadaptive for the local country
needs.
And so that's kind of aroundforest management.
And then the second type ofcertification we have is around
chain of custody certification.

(16:36):
So this is once that producthas left the forest, we then
track that product all the waythrough the supply chain.
We then track that product allthe way through the supply chain
.
So it's a way for us to ensurethat by the end product,
whenever that consumer sees thatlogo and it tells them that
it's FSC certified, we not onlythought about the forest but
we've thought about everyoneelse who's handled that product
in between.

(16:57):
So all supply chain companieswill then get a chain of custody
certificate to ensure thatthey're tracking and maintaining
and abiding by our standards aswell.
And then, of course, there'sthe final product.
So you'll see our labels on theproduct as well to help a
consumer identify what it is inthe product.

Speaker 4 (17:17):
Oh, okay, Interesting .
So, and essentially it's not.
It's responsible harvesting ofthe forest and proper forest
practices, correct.
It's not producing monocultureswhere it's only a singular type
of tree that's growing in anarea.
It's making sure that there'splenty of diversity and proper

(17:39):
ecosystems being developed inthe area.

Speaker 5 (17:41):
Yeah, I would say that's part of it, and I think
it goes even further than that,right, I mean, we've had some of
.
For example, some of theimpacts or benefits of our
standard include things likesafeguarding old growth and
endangered forests or preventingdeforestation and degradation.
There's a big focus onprotecting habitats for rare,
threatened and endangeredspecies as well.

(18:02):
I've already mentionedupholding Indigenous people's
rights is another example.
But we even then go in thechain of custody where one of
the more unique certificationsin the sense that we also have
adopted the international corelabor requirements.
So our certificate holders alsohave a strong focus to ensure
that there is no child laboraround the world with our

(18:24):
certified companies, thatthere's no type of forced labor
or there's no discriminationwith employment and occupation,
and so it kind of you knowthere's more all-encompassing
methods there as well andbenefits of FSC certification.

Speaker 4 (18:39):
Right.
So now Kent, the FSC and I knowthat Buchanan out of Thunder
Bay had approached me when I wasminister because there was a
substantial section of forestthat had a significant amount of
what was called blowdown, ifyou know what that is, and
that's where you get the largewinds coming in with mature

(19:00):
forests and you have a lot ofbreakages and, just like the ice
storm that took place alongthrough the Minden, peterborough
, lindsay areas, where there's alarge number of trees that came
down, and Buchanan wantedaccess to get into these areas
on a short notice, becausethere's a limited amount of time
to be able to harvest all thiswood that's blown down,

(19:23):
otherwise it becomes thenpotential fuel for fires and
fire hazards in those areas.
Can the FSC react quick enoughto be able to get in and to deal
with things like that?

Speaker 5 (19:34):
So our standards would already have that in
consideration, because weunderstand that, you know,
forestry is not always the sameand nature has a mind of its own
, and so there are requirementsin our standard of you know,
kind of these circumstances ofif something happens of that
sort, how do you deal with it.
And so one of the things that wealso do is, although our

(19:56):
standards are structured and inplace, they last for five years,
and so what will happen is, inour current requirements, even
if the requirement was not there, for example, for a blowdown,
then you would, every five yearswe look at it again and say, if
somebody, one of ourcertificate holders, said, hang
on, we're having a big issuewith blowdown, can we get that

(20:16):
incorporated into the FSCstandard, then yes, absolutely,
we would take it to our standarddevelopment group, which is
consisting of members andstakeholders, and we would say
this is an issue that's beenbrought up and needs to be
addressed in the next version ofthe standard.
So we're constantly updating tonot only, you know, I would say
updated science and of course Iwould say indigenous

(20:37):
perspectives in there andindigenous knowledge, but we're
also looking at updating ourstandards so they do meet what
people need on the ground aswell.

Speaker 4 (20:47):
Right.
So what about things like whenthe pine beetle comes in and
does large kill offs in areas,and I know that happened?
Slowly it's migrating eastagain from Western Canada, and
how do you deal or contend withissues like that?

Speaker 5 (21:05):
Yeah, that's a great question.
I mean we've, especially whenit hit BC.
I think that's when we firststarted talking about it.
We don't have a specificmechanism right now that says
you know, you can't use mountainpine beetle.
It comes down to what themarket needs, and so that's
become part of.
The challenge is that, althoughour standard might have a
mechanism for it, is anyoneactually asking for it and is it

(21:28):
sellable?
And so that becomes probablythe bigger challenge for the
forest managers is that ifnobody's looking for it, then
there's nothing to deal with itin terms of product at the end
of the day.
Right, Of course our standardsinclude, you know, regulations
around use, utilization ofpesticides and herbicides.
We have a very strict entiredocument dedicated just to that,

(21:49):
and so there's lots of detailsin there of which pesticides or
herbicides we accept and whichare not acceptable.

Speaker 4 (21:57):
Right Now.
So out west, when the pinebeetle came in, a lot of the
Alberta and British Columbiaallowed substantial cuts to take
place, and what that did was itbasically had flooded the
market with a lot of low valuedwood.
Does the FSC get involved inmaking sure that those are in
compliance?
Because when the pine beetlecame in and killed off large

(22:18):
tracts of forest, it's doing alot of devastation and I'm not
sure how FSC plays a role inthat if they do.

Speaker 5 (22:26):
I would say that well , first of all, I'll be very
honest with you.
I mean, we don't currently haveas many fsc certificates out
west.
We have a few um.
You know, there's probablyaround six or seven million
hectares between bc and albertaum, but that being said, it kind
of feeds into my.
My answer on this is that wehaven't had to deal with it as
much because of the fact that wedon't have as many forests out

(22:49):
there that are certified to FSC.
That being said, you know, ifthey had come to us initially
and said, well, we've got this,this is a totally different
world of how FSC is managing ourforests and we need support
then yes, of course we wouldthink about it in our standards
From a market perspective.
Again, it really came down toyou know, what did people want

(23:11):
to do with it If they were goingin and harvesting large areas?
First of all, our principlefirst principle in our standard
says did you obey the laws?
So are you ensuring that you'renot going above and beyond your
annual allowable cut, forexample, or whatever the
provinces might be sayingindividually?
That's the first consideration.
And then the secondconsideration is okay, if you

(23:31):
are abiding by the laws, whatelse can FSC do to support you
there, whether that berestoration efforts or
conservation efforts or whetherthat be just mitigation of the
pest itself.
And so there's differentelements in the standard,
depending on what the individualforest is looking for elements
in the standard, depending onwhat the individual forest is

(23:52):
looking for.

Speaker 4 (23:57):
Yeah, I just know that the pine beetle in it was a
huge issue because it wascheaper to send the.
I don't know if you'd even callit subsidized.
I guess the stumpage rates thatwere used for the harvesting of
the infected trees was reducedsubstantially in order to
promote it.
Otherwise you end up with largedie offs that end up becoming
forest fire hazard problemsbecause you've got large tracts
of dead forest that brought in alot of you know, cheap wood

(24:18):
into in ontario.
It was quite surprising to seeum plywood in ontario from
british columbia cheaper than itwas in ontario, but that's
because of the the allowablecuts that took place with the
pine beetle areas that we'regoing through.
So it's tough to find a balancewhen you get things like that
and how you're going to manageand handle all that sort of

(24:39):
things.
Otherwise, you know, do youhave large tracts of areas that
have now become like theproblems that we're having a lot
with a lot of forest fires.

Speaker 5 (24:50):
Yes, absolutely yeah.
And I mean, at the end of theday we have to think about as
well is, you know, should we usewhat we already have?
That's something there's alwaysa way to.
We need to always balanceperspectives and efforts, and so
one of the things I know thatwe've discussed is should we be
utilizing more of the woodthat's available, like, for
example, if mountain pine beetleinfected wood is something that

(25:11):
is already kind of available?
I'm not saying it should behigh graded or low graded, but
should it actually become thefirst priority because it's
already cut, it's alreadyavailable, and then thinking
about going back into the forestfor new harvest?
It's just one of the,especially now that we're
exploring concepts ofcircularity and looking at where

(25:33):
does our wood products end upat the end of the day, we have
to think about those things aswell.

Speaker 4 (25:38):
Absolutely, and that's part of the
decision-making process is howdo you kind of define what is
the best for the industry aswell as best for the forest?
And that's what we need to lookat Now.
In Ontario we basically have ano burn policy, which means we
put out every forest fire that'sout there, but in national
parks they have a burn policy.

(25:59):
That's why, when out west, whenthe forest fires hit out a lot
of those areas and I know that asignificant number of park
individual superintendents thatI spoke to were undecided as to
how they were going to managethose forests.
Does any of that take intoconsideration when it's being
certified whether it's a burn orno burn and how they manage

(26:20):
areas like that?

Speaker 5 (26:22):
So actually, interestingly enough, it's
something that we're working onnow.
Is fire mitigation we'reworking on now.
Is fire mitigation Through oneof our climate and ecosystem
services work?
We're actually exploringdifferent ways of how do we
incorporate better firemitigation into the FSC
standards.
Is that something likeindigenous brushing techniques

(26:43):
or is that other methods that wemay not be traditionally
utilizing?
That would help.
I think I will say parks aretypically not certified, because
we do typically work mostlywith large-scale industrial
forestry, but that doesn't meanthat we couldn't support a park,
so Algonquin Park wouldprobably be a great example.

(27:04):
You know, if they wanted to getcertified, of course they can,
but then the value ofcertification could be either do
our standards support inhelping you manage your forest
better, or could it also beadditional values, for example,
around payment for ecosystemservices.
Could we be actually supportinga park with getting

(27:27):
conservation funds to support innot only conservation efforts
but fire mitigation or othermechanisms as well?

Speaker 4 (27:36):
Now, is it just forest that you, or is it the
entire ecosystems?
And the reason I ask that isbecause recently we did a
recording with the RoyalBotanical Gardens, who actually
go in, and they were burningprairie grass sections off with
a special way and a controlledway.
So is it just the forest thatyou tried to deal with or is

(27:57):
there adjacent to the forest youget involved in those, or is it
just basically with the forest?

Speaker 5 (28:03):
Traditionally, it would be the forest itself.
However, we do recognize thatthere's a sphere of influence
when it comes to a forestmanagement area.
You know there's, you know aforest is.
They don't know traditionalboundaries like we do.
We've created these maps andlines, but if you actually walk
in the bush, you may notactually see a distinction when
you're walking around.

(28:23):
It's a landscape, right, it's afull landscape that we're
working with, and so we doconsider what kind of what kind
of influence can a forestmanagement company have to
what's adjacent or nearby?
And how do you work, especiallyif you have overlapping tenures
or anything of the sort?
How do you work with othercompanies to ensure that not
only can you meet the standards,but that, uh, you know that

(28:45):
you're working along withcompanies that are moving in the
same direction, or trying to atleast, so that you're not kind
of putting efforts in one areawhich could be the opposite in
another area that's in the sameforest management area.
But, yeah, so I would say thatthere's traditionally again, yes
, probably, forest managementunits are typical for language
that we all use, but there's adegree of influence beyond that

(29:07):
as well.

Speaker 4 (29:08):
Right Now.
You mentioned that aboutpesticides and herbicides not
being used, but I know inOntario we have a no
fertilization policy.
Is that something that's lookedat as well in other
jurisdictions?
Or do you even deal withfertilizers, because I know you
mentioned pesticides andherbicides?

Speaker 5 (29:26):
We would deal with soil but we wouldn't.
I'd have to specifically lookinto the exact wording in our
standard around fertilization.
But right now if I had toanswer that, I would say I don't
think we do.
But again, it might be detailedinto the standard itself.

Speaker 4 (29:41):
Yeah, I just I don't think a lot of listeners would
realize a couple of things.
We have a no burn policy, whichmeans Ontario puts out every
forest fire that's out there inthe province of ontario and
crown land and that you're notallowed to fertilize any of the
forests to promote growth.
And that's a natural thing,although when forest harvesting
takes place they use a lot ofthe residuals to go back into

(30:02):
the soil, into the cycles thatutilize a lot of the material
there.

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(34:48):
Hey, thanks for listening Backto the episode, monica.
Maybe you can tell us, because Iknow way back when I think the
Gordon Cousins Forest was thefirst certified forest in
Ontario, but I'm not positiveabout that.
I believe so, and I know whathad took place was.

(35:09):
I was asked to do an interviewwith with somebody from city tv
and they were jumping all overme that, uh, you know, ontario
was not doing anything and weweren't dealing with a forage
standard at all, and I couldn'tsay anything because two weeks
after that interview we wereannouncing the certification of
the Gordon Cousins Forest inOntario.

(35:31):
So maybe you can give us a bitof a background on Gordon
Cousins and what took place forthe certification, if you're
familiar with it at all.

Speaker 5 (35:38):
It's a little bit before my time, yes, but it is
still.
Gordon Cousins is stillcurrently FSC certified.
I did look into it before ourconversation and they don't have
any current what we callnon-conformances.
So when an auditor goes inevery year to double check that
a forest is meeting ourstandards, these audit reports

(36:01):
are published publicly so anyonehas access to them and it will
tell you if there were any majorissues in the forest and how
long they have to correct thoseissues and also you know the
status of their certificationand with that particular forest
at the moment there are noissues that we're aware of and I

(36:21):
don't see they've been able tomeet our standard year after
year.
Even when we changed and madeour standard more rigorous in
2019, they were still able tomeet their certification, but
unfortunately I don't have thefull history on the background
of it.

Speaker 4 (36:36):
Okay, I just want to.
Yeah, because I know it washere I am doing an interview,
being trying to rip down by thisreporter from I think it was
City TV at the time and Icouldn't say a word because the
announcement wasn't coming fortwo weeks.
And I recall when it went toair his comments were I don't

(36:56):
know what this guy's smoking,but he doesn't know what he's
talking about.
That's not just happening inOntario.
And then two weeks later it wascertified.
So we kind of called back andsaid well, and of course he
wouldn't comment or anything onthat.
Monica, can you tell us aboutthere's some concern coming up
from some groups in regards to abroadleaf spray when they're

(37:16):
reforesting, doing reforestationin areas.
Do you know much about that?
Are you involved in that at all?

Speaker 5 (37:24):
No, I do not personally have enough knowledge
around that topic.

Speaker 4 (37:31):
Any of the shows that we go to, there's a group, a
couple of groups, that show upthat are very concerned when
they go in and harvest and thenthey replant growth in an area
to allow the target species,usually being the SPF, spruce
pine firs in an area to growwhere it kills off any of the

(37:55):
aspen poplars and things likethat, and so this group is
concerned that it's getting intothe ecosystem, causing a lot of
problems, and I wasn't sure ifyou were involved in that or had
much knowledge about that atall.

Speaker 5 (38:06):
No, but one of the things our standard does talk
about is about when you'relooking at a forest and thinking
about what you're planting orwhat you're reforesting.
It certainly looks at originalconditions let's call that, for
lack of a better word andlooking at how do you replace
not just any type of tree thatyou want to plant, but one that

(38:29):
actually might be trying torestore it to previous original
historic conditions, so thatit's native to the area that
it's in and that it's actuallyworking to mitigate issues that
may arise.
So that is prescribed in detailin our standard in terms of how
to do that and how to go aboutdoing that.

(38:49):
And, of course we mentionedearlier, we've got our
pesticides policy so that whenyou are putting in these kind of
seedlings or even smaller trees, if you have to spray that,
you're eliminating the mosthazardous chemicals, you're
promoting best practices when itcomes to minimizing the risk
associated with both human andenvironmental health and then,

(39:12):
of course, reducing the overallvolume of chemicals that are in
there as well.
But we wouldn't necessarilyallow anything further than that
.

Speaker 4 (39:23):
Yeah, I know that there's a group that's very
actively trying to stop thespray Ontario, and it's just
they're claiming that theimpacts on wild blueberries and
a lot of other aspects arehaving a significant impact.
However, I'm not sure that I'veseen any detailed research on
that and I didn't know if theFSC actually considered or took

(39:47):
a look at that.
So essentially what happens isthe forest gets harvested, clear
cut, and then they come in andthey plant, replant, regenerate
the forest and usually SPFspruce pine fir and at that
point they allow it to start.
And then the Ministry ofNatural Resources, I believe it
is, comes in and sprays forbroadleaf plants that come in in

(40:12):
order to give these other onesa chance to grow.
But in that time then you'llsee signs coming up saying
caution, spray in the area,don't harvest the blueberries,
and things like that.
That I have seen west ofTimmins in the past and it
brings a lot of concern to a lotof people.
But the more information thatpeople have, the better they can
make their decisions on theirown.

Speaker 5 (40:32):
Absolutely, absolutely.

Speaker 4 (40:34):
Yeah, so what other sorts of things does FFC get
involved in?
Or how many forests are therein Ontario that are certified?

Speaker 5 (40:41):
Oh yeah, we've got approximately around 46 million
hectares right across thecountry and Ontario, I believe,
is currently sitting at 17million, and that's a mixture
between, you know, kind of thetraditional large forest
management units as well as somecommunity forests and
smallholders.
We've got some municipalitiesin there as well, so there's a

(41:03):
bit of a diversification there.

Speaker 4 (41:09):
Oh so it's a bit of a diversification there.
Oh so it's like um places I'mnot sure if I know, if you would
know or not with places likethe ganaraska forest or the
northumberland forest or thedurham york forest.
Are they certified?

Speaker 5 (41:18):
yes, actually northumberland is is certified.
We actually just did a quickfeature on them recently because
they're doing some interestingwork out there.
Uh, as I mentioned earlier, Iwas just in the forest the other
day, and so it's a conservationauthority South Nation
Conservation, that's part of it.
You've also got forests fromthe city of Oakville, for
example, that are certified, andthen you've got smaller units

(41:42):
as well.
There's a lot of mom and popmaple syrup folks who are, who
are certified as well, and soquite a diversity, I would say,
in terms of the forest companieswe work with.

Speaker 4 (41:53):
So when they get FSC certified, is that an organic
designation?

Speaker 5 (42:00):
Are you being like?
Is it?
You know organic fooddesignation?

Speaker 4 (42:04):
Well, I know a lot of you mentioned maple syrup
producers and I know a lot ofproducers try to get an organic
certification and it just addsto their clientele's demands.

Speaker 5 (42:16):
Yeah, and so in this particular case, fsc doesn't
just look at traditional, youknow, paper or forest products
like lumber and paper andpackaging.
You could certify anything thatcomes from a forest and that
would include non-timber forestproducts like lumber and paper
and packaging.
You could certify anything thatcomes from a forest and that
would include non-timber forestproducts like maple syrup, and
worldwide for those that arelistening from around the world

(42:37):
it can include things likerubber trees.
We have other non-timber forestproducts, such as acai berries
and Brazil nuts, and so I wouldsay that anything that can come
from a forest can be certified,and usually the reason for that
certification especially withsmaller landowners, I would say

(42:59):
is usually one of two reasons.
One, you know, when I wastalking to south nation last
week, they've been certified for20 years and we said you know
what happened 20 years ago thatmade you decide this?
And they said well, somebodytold us we had to come up with a
forest management plan.
We didn't really know where tostart, and so we figured, you
know FSC was already there.
Why not look at your standardsand how you were doing it and

(43:20):
see if we could figure it outourselves?
And so that's a lot of the timewhen I talk to the smaller
forest owners, they say that'show they started.
They were looking for guidance,they were looking for help, and
they look to FSC to try tofigure that out.
And then, on the other hand,some of them have actually seen
additional market access.
So, you know, the little bitthat they may be harvesting is

(43:42):
actually there's a client thatcame knocking on their door and
said there's a client that cameknocking on their door and said,
hey, you know, maybe I'mlooking for big pine trees for
utility poles or I'm looking forFSC maple syrup for an event
I'm doing, and so there is aportion that's market demand, or
market access, I should say,which allows them to get new
customers coming in the doorthat typically may not have

(44:03):
contacted them.
But then, yeah, the originationstory seems to be very similar
for many, which is we werelooking for help on how to
manage a forest.

Speaker 4 (44:13):
Very good Very good.
Yeah, so what other sorts ofthings can you tell us about FSC
that we haven't discussed?
Like you mentioned about theinteresting things taking place
in the Northumberland Forest.
What kind of interesting thingsare taking place there?

Speaker 5 (44:26):
Yeah, so they're working actually a little bit on
the climate and ecosystemservices space.
They've been managing theirforest for I'm going to have to
try to remember how many yearsit's been now, I can probably
get that to you later, butthat's okay.
But they've been actuallyworking on how do they support

(44:47):
biodiversity in NorthumberlandCounty, and so the restoration
of ecosystems is really whatthey were looking at.
And you know what do they do toalso restore their forests to
an area that was originally amonocultural rogue of crops.
They had some invasive pinespecies there row of crops.

(45:11):
They had some invasive pinespecies there, and it was
originally.
The forest was actually adiverse kind of tall grass
prairie.
It had some oak woodland.
There was savanna that existedthere all before European
settlement, and so they werelooking at how to as I mentioned
, you know, fsc encourages youto restore your forest into what
it once was.
This is what they were lookingat is how do they go from this

(45:31):
monoculture row of crops tosomething that existed before,
and so they were working, Ithink, with you know they had.
Obviously there's the bigconcept around the 30 by 30
goals for Canada as well, and sothey're trying to think about
how do we kind of merge all ofthese things together?
We're trying to improve ourforests.
Canada's got these larger goals.

(45:53):
Can we do something that mighthelp contribute to this?
And so they're also looking ata concept called Other Effective
Conservation Measures, or OECMs, and that is looking at, for
example, fsc certified forestsare required to set aside 10% of
their land for conservationmeasures, and so can that 10%

(46:16):
potentially be permanentlydesignated so that it could
contribute to Canada's goals of30 by 30.
So that's 30 by 30 is theprotection of lands and water by
2030.
And so this is what they'relooking at.
Is you know, is that somethingwe could do?
Could we set this aside?
Could we also again go back toour natural habitat by restoring

(46:39):
some of the original plantspecies or tree species that
were originally there?
And now, what they've been ableto do I think it was a total of
2,500 hectares that they havebeen pausing their operations on
since maybe about last year, Iwant to say, or maybe about
longer than that, but they havebeen able to actually pause the

(47:02):
operations and so that some ofthe local bird species can nest
and raise their young, and sothey were bringing biodiversity
back by doing that.
And then they're also helping torestore the area's local
ecosystem as well, and that wasbecause it was lost with the
early plantations and ecologistshad come in and said you know,

(47:24):
there's some indicator speciesin your forest that if you're
not able to protect, you knowthis will really indicate that
your ecosystem could fall apart.
And so part of this was youknow that they wanted to take
several years to get up to thisspace.
Now there are, of course, youknow there's a larger plan here
at hand and it will take time,but they have been doing some

(47:47):
amazing work just in terms ofthat restoration for
biodiversity and looking at thelarger picture of how can they
help.
You know Canada in terms oftheir goals as well, so they're
doing some really interestingwork out there.

Speaker 4 (47:59):
Very good.
Now you mentioned 30 by 30.
So it's by the year 2030.
And what's the 30 by 30?
I don't think a lot of ourlisteners would know.

Speaker 5 (48:07):
Sure.
So this came out of COP 15, Ibelieve it was.
This is the biodiversity COP,which was originally supposed to
take place in China and thenwas moved to Montreal, so it was
kind of a local event in a way,but a global impact, and
through there there was theidentification of these large

(48:29):
biodiversity goals that came upand Canada essentially said you
know, okay, we're going tocommit to protecting 30% of
Canada's land and water shouldbe protected by the year 2030.
And so that has been the goal ofCanada to try and achieve that.
This is on the federal level,of course, and the interesting

(48:52):
part of all of this is we'retrying to now see how each
province will be approachingtheir contribution towards the
federal goals of this.
I mean, 2030 is about fiveyears away, so the clock is
certainly ticking, but thisreally stems from the fact that
we're in a bit of a crisis, adual crisis, of not only climate

(49:14):
change, but also we're seeingwildlife extinctions or wildlife
challenges, and so that's whythere was a commitment that was
made.
It's a worldwide initiative forgovernments to designate 30% of
earth's land and ocean area asprotected by 2030.

Speaker 4 (49:31):
Okay, now people know , and you mentioned about the.
I know some of the things thathave been changing in regards to
nesting birds.
You mentioned, and I recall,the chief forester that handled
the Ganaraska forest before hepassed bless his soul, bob and
he told me that you knowsomething, jerry when we were
out and allocating cuts into theforest, we never took into

(49:54):
consideration migrating birdsand their habitat for nesting
periods of time.
But that's changed after quitea period of time, because they
realized that significant numberof birds would be harvesting in
all the chicoes, the dead treesand things like that at certain
periods, and so the cuts werethen outside those guidelines to
make sure that nesting wastaken into consideration, which

(50:15):
is a good thing.

Speaker 5 (50:17):
No, absolutely.
We've also seen other examplesin terms of biodiversity
protection.
For example, this was a fewyears ago, before some of the
forest switches were going on,but Rayonier at the time, which
was operated slightly differentthan Rayonier now, but they had
actually.
They had a certified forest andthey actually did not meet

(50:41):
their FSC requirements.
So it was a while back.
It was in 2013, so it's not arecent example, but it's a good
example to showcase how, youknow, creative solutions come
about to protect biodiversity.
So in 2013, it was a routineaudit the forest company
discovered they did not meet therequirements in relation to the
protection of caribou habitatas set by FSC Canada and based

(51:05):
on some of the new informationfrom the federal recovery
strategy for woodland caribou.
It really highlighted theimportance that forest
management could contribute, andso the forest company
essentially looked at FSC'srequirements and said, okay, we
didn't meet it in this lastaudit.
How do we fix this?
So they decided one of theoptions that FSC offers is, you

(51:25):
know, get together your localenvironmental groups, your First
Nations, the provincialgovernment and environmentalists
and join together to figure outa way to reduce disturbance
levels through, for example,minimizing road building or
harvesting outside of cariboubreeding and migration areas,
and so they did this.

(51:46):
They got together in a space.
I think they worked on it forabout a year and it was through
this collaboration effort ofthese diverse interests that
they were able to get you knowthings like traditional
knowledge from the localIndigenous community.
They use scientific findingsthat were recent and updated,
and then they got into asolution space and a workshop

(52:08):
and they figured out a way toactually rectify what had been
going on previously.
And so you know, it's certainlysomething that is unique, but
there are kind of new andinteresting ways that FSC
provides companies to be able tomitigate some of the issues
with species protection andtheir habitat protection.

Speaker 4 (52:30):
Yeah, monica, it must be some of the difficulties.
I would find that, for example,to make a choice between moose
and caribou, which have atendency to occupy a lot of the
same areas.
However, forest practices forboth are very, very different,
as you mentioned about access,and a lot of caribou prefer they
have undisturbed areas forlarge periods of time to allow

(52:51):
lichens and the feed that theyfeed on to mature enough to be
able to consume, whereas a moosemosaic is very different.
It's kind of a patchwork.
So how does FSC decide whetherit's a moose mosaic, decide
whether it's a moose mosaic?
Because I know I recently asyesterday, saw indications about

(53:12):
large concerns about thedecrease in the moose population
in Northwestern Ontario, whichguess what where a lot of the
caribou are.
So how does FSC determine thatit make decisions between moose
and caribou, or do they, or howdo they work?

Speaker 5 (53:25):
Yeah, I mean I would say that we don't directly
choose between moose or caribou.
I mean it's rather, you know,FSC Canada's standards are
designed to address species atrisk.
We also look at ecologicalvalues as well as cultural
priorities within a specificforest landscape, and so you
know, for example, with caribou,we certainly know it's listed

(53:48):
as threatened under the FederalSpecies Act, and with moose,
it's also ecologically importantand culturally significant, but
they're not always listedgenerally at risk, and so
forestry practices will need todecide, you know, based on their
landscape, what is in line withthe law as designated.
And then also you know what isthe best for the forest health,

(54:11):
and caribou being such anindicator species, they also
indicate the health of theforest as well, and so I would
say that we don't tell youspecifically.
This is your hierarchy ofanimals that you're protecting,
but it really depends on thelandscape level planning and
designated approaches that theforest management companies

(54:32):
prioritize as well right?

Speaker 4 (54:34):
yeah, I know.
Yeah, because differentministry in different offices
handle it each differently,quite a bit different, and and
some were upset someone.
Well, no matter what you do,you're going to upset somebody
all the time, but you have tomake decisions on the best
interest of all the uh, all theplayers in uh that are in the
area that are dealing with thosethings.
Yeah, so, monica, can you tellme um municipalities?

(54:57):
You said they havecertifications as well.

Speaker 5 (55:01):
Uh, yes, so, um, I mentioned there most of the
municipalities I know of mostlyfall under this.
Uh, what this group certificateI was telling you about?
So they're considered communityforests but yes, they certainly
can get certified and whatthey'll do is they're doing the
same thing a forest managementcompany does, which is they take

(55:24):
the FSC, know, mitigate oradopt their forest management
practices according to what ourstandard says, and then they can
get their certificate.
One example was the town ofOakville.
They received certification forI believe it was around it was
quite a few I want to say around200 woodland properties.

(55:46):
It was quite a few, I want tosay around 200 woodland
properties, and that's part ofthe town's efforts to combat the
emerald ash borer which hasbeen implicating their regional
ash trees.
But then also to be able to saythat you know forest management

(56:07):
companies but it's kind of thecredibility behind us is also
the environmental groups and theindigenous peoples as well as
labor groups and social folkswho are behind FSC that then the
city of Oakville or the town ofOakville can say we've met this
international criteria.
We can now tell you that we arecertainly managing our forest

(56:27):
to be more responsible, whetherthey're actually getting
economic benefit from it.
I haven't had the chance to askthem so I don't know, but
they're certainly doing it forforest management practices.

Speaker 4 (56:39):
I just know in my own municipality of Oshawa I see a
lot of non-indigenous speciesbeing planted by the
municipality in a lot of areasnon-indigenous species being
planted by the municipality in alot of areas and I wonder how
those impact, whether it's, youknow, a Norway maple or some of
the other tree species you don'tnormally see in a lot of this
part of the country that are nowbeing brought in by the
municipalities and I didn't knowhow that played out, whether
that affected some of theircertifications or not.

Speaker 5 (57:05):
I mean it would if the city of Oshawa was certified
.
I'm sure they might have tolook at that again.
But you know, as I said, mostof our, when you're doing a
restoration effort, youcertainly have to look at trying
to restore the land to what itonce was, and if those species
are not typical for that area,then you have to ask well, why.
I mean, this is kind of aninteresting question because it

(57:26):
does link to the you know, theconversations around climate
change.
We look at our forests as youknow, it once was this and so we
should strive to go back andmake it what it was.
But eventually, you know, in thefuture, this is kind of a
probing question to say, well,we don't know what's going to
happen.
You know we've seen climatechange dramatically changing our

(57:47):
landscapes.
We need to plant differenttypes of tree species that are
maybe more fire resistant orclimate resistant, so that our
forests have a better chance ofsurviving.
But then, of course, we have toask ourselves, well, what does
that actually mean and what arewe going to actually be then
planting?
I think that's a very much afuture conversation that I think
a lot of people have on theirminds, and whether our forests

(58:11):
are actually going to be climateresilient in the future as well
.

Speaker 4 (58:15):
Yeah, that's exactly it.
I look at some of the treesthat are planting and I wonder
why they put that in and I don't.
It always makes me wonder and Idon't know.
But some of the certainly someof the trees I see are not what
I would consider would beindigenous to the areas at all.
But each of those foresters allhave a different idea and how
things should play out and theymove forward as they see fit

(58:38):
yeah, absolutely, absolutely soanything else you can tell us
then, monica, about, about FSC.

Speaker 5 (58:46):
I mean, I could spend hours telling you about FSC,
but maybe I can tell you somereally interesting work that
we're doing on a global level aswell.
You know we're looking atutilizing technology.
I think technology has been areally interesting topic lately,
especially when you know oursociety is now moving into

(59:06):
things like we're using AI andwe're using all of this
technology for fun on socialmedia, but then also we're using
it for practical, you know,revolutionary things in our
worlds, and I think FSC has beenreally testing things out in a
unique way.
So one of the things we'vethere's three things that we're
doing right now.
One is around traceability, andso I mentioned you know we

(59:29):
trace products from the forestto the retailer, and how do you
do that?
You know we've kind of beenthis old school paper-based
system for a long time becauseit works across the world for
diversity of companies.
Could we be using technologylike the power of blockchain to
really look at revolutionizingmaterial traceability and trade

(59:52):
compliance with high-risk supplychains?
So imagine you'd never have toguess anymore like, where did
this actually come from?
These are types of systems thatwould be able to do
traceability while still keepinginformation protected and then
actually be able to understand.
Yes, in fact, we now knowexactly where this came from.
We have a guarantee behind it.

(01:00:13):
So it's kind of looking attechnology in a different way
for compliance, and this type ofthing will also be super useful
for things like the Europeanregulation that's come out
around the EUDR.
So it's the European Regulationon Deforestation, and what
they're asking for is anyproducts that are sent to Europe

(01:00:34):
must, in fact, not come from adeforested or degraded site.
Now, when you think about that,you're like Europe, that's very
ambitious.
How are you going to prove thatthis is exactly it?
We've spent the last year,maybe year and a half, looking
at well, how would we meet that?
Because products from Canadaand from other parts of the

(01:00:54):
world go into Europe that areall forest-based, and if we
needed to prove that, technologyis something we have to look at
.
So we're now you know, we'veactually just kind of did a soft
launch of our tool called FSCTrace and we're looking at this
exact blockchain technology sothat, when your product ends up
in Europe, the EuropeanCommission, who verifies that

(01:01:16):
the product came from where yousay it is our technology could
help actually inform the.
I forgot what they're exactlycalled, but essentially they're
like customs authorities to sayyes, this product is FSC
certified, it meets thiscriteria and here's all the
paperwork that you need behindit.
So it's solutions for supplychains, but also solutions for

(01:01:36):
forest companies to be able tosay you know, we have to tell
you exactly the plot of landthat our product was harvested
and submitted to Europe.
Well, we can help with that asa facility.

Speaker 4 (01:01:48):
Yeah, interesting, yeah, very interesting.
Well, monica, I can tell youthat one of the things that I've
always said is that so long asthe forest continues to have
value, it will continue to be aforest.
And I know that when I was in,I wasn't the minister, but
afterwards, when I wasopposition critic, I saw from
the cattle industry who wantedaccess to large tracts of forest

(01:02:09):
to be able to clear, cut allthose areas in order to be able
to grow grass to graze thecattle in.
And I met with Jamie Lim, whowas the president of the Ontario
Forest Industries Associationat the time, and brought that to
her attention.
That, look, these otherindustries are now looking at

(01:02:31):
trying to find value.
But, as I mentioned to her, solong as the forest continues to
have value, and if it's, thelocal municipalities are looking
to be able to hire people towork in their forests, to run
the mills, to deliver the trees,to cut and harvest the trees in
a sustainable fashion, they'llcontinue to do so.

Speaker 5 (01:02:48):
But it's organizations like yours, that
fsc, that that helps to makesure that those forests are
being dealt with in a proper wayabsolutely, especially because
around the world I mean, youknow, fsc has been around for 30
years, but in 30 years wehaven't certified the entire
world.
So there is still harm anddeforestation and degradation

(01:03:09):
happening in many differentplaces and that still comes back
down to well, then what do weneed to help mitigate it?
And so organizations like theFSC have a requirement that says
you know, you have todemonstrate that you're not
converting natural forest toplantations or other land uses
like agriculture.
And that's where you know we'reseeing the most ecosystems are

(01:03:32):
being harmed because we havepeople, you know, we have
imagery showcasing a forestthat's not certified, that's
been kind of just blown over ortorn down because they need us
for agricultural space, andthat's not what we're here for.
I mean, as I said when westarted this conversation, I
said our mandate is really tokeep forests for all and forever
, and that's what we're tryingto do is prevent that

(01:03:54):
deforestation from happening.

Speaker 4 (01:03:57):
Yes.
So, monica, how can otherpeople find out more information
about FSC or yourself, andwhere can they reach out to get
more details?

Speaker 5 (01:04:09):
Absolutely.
We're on all social mediachannels, so you can always just
look up FSC Canada or FSC, ourinternational office as well as
well.
You have our website that's aCanadian one is cafscorg, or, if
you'd like to go to theinternational website even
simpler, it's fscorg and I thinkone of the key places people

(01:04:31):
will see it.
I always say this you know youmay not know what fsc is now,
but now that you've learned alittle bit about it, you'll look
for our logo.
It looks like a check mark anda tree and it says fsc
underneath it.
And when you're out shopping inyour local stores, especially
here in canada, you know you canturn over any of your mail that
you get in the post.
Or you know, look in yourgrocery stores and you will

(01:04:53):
start seeing it everywhere.
And so I like to tell peopleabout that.
To look for that logo, becausereally that's ultimately you're
sending a message back throughthe supply chain, just like the
original founders of FSC wantedfor consumers like you and me
and people who are listening tosay all right, that means it's

(01:05:14):
come from a responsibly managedforest and I'm going to choose
that product because I want toknow where my products are
coming from and I want to makesure I'm contributing back to to
you know, the forest itself,and so that's one way to
continuously look for.
It is to look for that checktree logo.
And then, of course, you know,feel free to learn more.

(01:05:34):
We do so much as anorganization.
We've only covered just aslight tip of it today.
Visit our website.
Look at some of the greatvideos and stories we have
online.
Some of the stories I mentionedtoday are also published on our
website, so feel free toexplore and learn more.

Speaker 4 (01:05:51):
Yes, thanks very much , Monica.
We appreciate that.
I know we've had otherorganizations like the Woodlot
Association on, or ForestPlanners on as well, to talk
about forests and how to managethem properly, and certainly
this is a little bit somethingdifferent about, so people can
learn about the ForestStewardship Council and gain
some more information about howthings happen out there under

(01:06:12):
the canopy.
Absolutely Okay, thanks verymuch, monica.
I really appreciate you takingthe time.

Speaker 5 (01:06:18):
Wonderful.
Thank you very much for havingme.

Speaker 2 (01:06:40):
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Speaker 6 (01:07:01):
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