075 - COGEN: Sword of Rewind, The Room Three, & ANIMAL WELL (Guest: Jeremy Reineck of Moon Soul Games) - Underplayed

Episode Transcript
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(00:05):
Thank you for pressing start on episode 75 of Underplayed KC UMS
Indie Video Game podcast. Today we have two secret games,
followed by a developer interview and a review of our
featured game Animal Well. Here on Underplayed, we review

(00:29):
indie games of all kinds, The games with small budgets but big
hearts, the lesser known experiences with imaginative
ideas. I'm Bo Po, but it's not only me.
There's a guy with a flow who's on a journey.
So won't you put your hands together, please?
For The Zeo Drifter, the indie game Sifter, the Curse Crack,

(00:50):
and Mr. Disco Cola, What's goingon?
Man, it's hard to explain. I'm feeling a bit bubbly today,
kind of kind of dizzy, like I'vebeen spinning around on a
frisbee. How are you?
I'm doing just fine. My bubble blowing. yo-yo,
throwing Frisbee, surfing, slinky dropper.
Those are references to our featured game Animal.

(01:11):
Well, that was really good synergy.
Yeah, our cold open there. Yeah, we really did it. 75, man,
We're like 3/4 of the way to 100.
I've been thinking about what 100 could look like.
I've been thinking about it moreand more.
As time goes on, I I have some grand ideas.
We can glue our grand ideas together and make something
really special. I I imagine a, a super special

(01:32):
big bonus episode. Yeah.
You know, it would be after our ninth season.
Yeah. We'd do the 100th episode.
And then we would start back over at 101 with season 10.
Yeah. And it would just time out so
perfectly so. Yeah, today we have a special
guest who will join us later forthe review of Animal.
Well, we have Jeremy of Moon Soul Games joining us, a solo

(01:54):
dev who put out an RPG earlier in 2024 called Grand Soul Story,
and Jeremy actually provided us a download code.
For that game, you remember thatfrom last episode.
And so that's that's what we're talking about today.
We're going to be talking with Jeremy, so.
Very cool, yes. So we'll be drawing upon your

(02:14):
experience playing that game. We'll be asking him all kinds of
questions about his journey and the release of Grand Soul Story,
and he will add some cool layersto our review of Animal Well
too. So since we have all that going
on, we are not going to do much up here at the top.
We're going to move on. But before we do, if you're

(02:34):
listening to Underplayed right now, thank you and we love you.
If you haven't already, please consider giving us a follow and
a five star rating on Spotify and Apple Podcasts.
It should only take a few seconds and we'd really
appreciate it. And if you have a friend who
likes indie games, maybe share our podcasts with them too.
It's time for our secret games. Secret games.

(02:57):
Secret games. I know you're playing without
me. Secret games.
Well, I'm here to tell you, baby, I've been playing 2 in
secret games. We each review an indie game
we've been playing in secret since our last episode.
We don't talk about what we're playing in advance with each

(03:19):
other. I don't know what Disco is going
to review today. He doesn't know what I'm going
to review. But we each pick an indie game
that we've never reviewed beforeon Underplayed.
So we'll start with you, Disco Cola.
Let the mystery be no more. Reveal your secret game for
Episodes 75 of Underplayed. My secret game This episode

(03:39):
comes from Gem Drops Inc and it is called Cogen.
I'm going to say Cogen Sword of Rewind.

(04:10):
Whoa, I've never heard of this. I'm not totally surprised.
OK, I'm excited to learn more. Is it COJEN?
Gen. OK, classic G instead of AJ
Cogen Cogen like cogent. Maybe.
But without the T, yes. OK, so give me the T on Cogen

(04:32):
sort of rewind. God, so yeah, this is a game
that I got in a Limited Run Games 2 pack with and get ready.
Get ready for this name GunvaultChronicles Luminous Avenger X2.
But that's not the game you're reviewing.
That's not the game I'm I'm reviewing.

(04:53):
Obviously I was I was in the 2 pack for the Gunvault game, but
the the pixel R and the action in this game looked pretty good
so I thought you know why not I'll just get the the two pack.
In Kojin you play as Kohaku who wakes up near a talking sword
not too dissimilar from Transistor, and in this game the
sword is called the exit breakeror EB for short.

(05:18):
Kohaku doesn't know much about what's going on, but EB tells
you that his function is to likeend the simulation or something.
I kind of got a little bit lost in in motivations along the way
to be honest. So anyways, to do so, you must

(05:38):
fight using EB and use his time reversing or a Boro system and
platform your way through the five zones of this facility.
You face different bosses and ultimately reach the end of the
line. Or do you reach the end of the
line? As far as gameplay, it has a lot
of the action platforming skillsthat we know and love.

(05:59):
You get a dash, an air dash, a double jump, you can hang on
walls similar to Mega Man X, butmost importantly, you have Exit
Breaker, your melee weapon and companion.
The Exit Breaker can also deflect bullets and as mentioned
already you get access to a timerewind mechanic.
In this mechanic you have like 3charges of time rewind that

(06:23):
automatically fill up over time.They do fill up relatively
quicker if you are not currentlyin the action, but you will be
using time rewind quite a lot because Kohaku is a one hit
death character. So if you get hit with no
Uroboros charges left, Kohaku takes an actual death and
restarts at a checkpoint. So I imagine you're rewinding a

(06:47):
lot like you're meant to get hitquite a bit.
Yeah, that's kind of the idea. You're faced with like gauntlets
of bullets and pits that are maybe less forgiving than they
might be without a time reversing mechanic.
Maybe a bullet. Heck.
A bullet Heck yeah, bullet hell.There are some points where it's
like this is unreasonable, but mostly yes, a bullet.

(07:09):
Heck OK. There are also a few
collectibles here and there, usually just like terminals that
have maybe some world building back story or like hidden spots
that will just trigger conversations with Exa Breaker.
And of course there are loads ofmachines for you to dodge and
destroy. So As for things that Kojin did

(07:31):
well, the visuals and the sprites met my expectations.
When compared to Gunvolt, which is the better comparison?
In my opinion, this looks a lot like the NT creates Mega Man's
and the Gunvolts more than it does a Mega Man game.
So when compared to those games,it meets my expectations.

(07:51):
As far as like sprites and how good everything looks.
The stages are maybe a little bit more stale than the Gunvault
games, but otherwise everything looks pretty good.
Bosses are pretty well designed and Kohaku Sprite is a really
good size. Enemy designs clearly
communicate their abilities. Like if you have a robot that
has a shield and a gun, you knowthat you have to wait for it to

(08:14):
shoot and you know that it's going to remove its shield while
it's. Shooting, that's one of my
favorite things of like, you know, playing Mega Man X Games
is just understanding that timing and learning the enemies
1 by 1. Yeah.
And like, so the guy that's likegenerating a shield around its
companions, you know, you have to kind of like take that guy
out for sure for you. So you kind of get the idea
based on their designs. Yeah, you're not wildly just

(08:36):
firing at at enemies. You have to strategize a little
bit. You can, but when when you do
have to you understand like what's going on.
Kohaku's move set feels pretty great.
The sword combat is usually really fun in games like this,
but I think Kojin pulls off a great feeling sword technique.
Dashing is fun. The double jump is just the

(08:57):
right height and the wall jumping compared with the air
dashing and jumping is tuned just right for the like
traditional super wide open pits.
So like if you get to a wide open pit and you look at it,
you're like, OK, I know that I have to jump once, then air
dash, then jump again and then wall jump off of the wall.

(09:19):
Like you sort of can can calculate and it's the perfect.
It's tuned perfectly for all of those wide open pits.
With the exception of the last two ish bosses, all of the
bosses are mostly pretty fun to fight like the Mega Man games
that I love. Learning the different boss
patterns provides me with, like,satisfying growth.

(09:41):
And this is also where the rewind function is the most
enjoyable, because instead of dying and restarting at a
checkpoint and starting the bossfight all the way over, I get a
chance to test out a new dodge for a boss attack that I just
learned. So that's kind of useful in that
case. Yeah, you're cutting down on the
reloads, right? Yeah, that's that's really nice.
Deflecting bullets is pretty cool, I'm just not very good at

(10:04):
it but that. Is it easier to do in like
Cortana Zero I imagine? No, I would I I think deflecting
bullets in Catana 0 is pretty hard unless you're like really
laying on that time slow thing. But yeah, that about does it for
things I like, things I don't like so much.
I think my largest complaint is actually hit boxes.

(10:27):
Getting hit really isn't very forgiving.
Bullets and collision damage andespecially explosions will hit
Kohaku with just like a pixel and then automatically force her
into rewind. This is especially rough with
the explosions and when when you're getting hit from an
explosion when you're using the rewind, it doesn't help you too

(10:50):
much because most of the time that explosions already going to
happen so you have to rewind like 2 charges worth to avoid
getting hit. I played Rewind, the games where
yeah, you don't get to use that full.
You don't have the full selection of time that you might
think, yeah. So that's that's a little bit
rough. Hit boxes are pretty
unforgiving. And as an extension, apart from

(11:10):
the boss fights, like the rewindfunction isn't actually all that
fun. A singular rewind charge is
sufficient to get you out of most situations that damage you,
but even using all three isn't totally cutting it.
In situations where you are likejust crowded with enemies or
you, especially when you fall ina pit of lava, it takes

(11:34):
literally all three just to get back to a platform.
And maybe that platform is already like about to disappear.
So I think in this game I would have just rather had a life bar
and, and maybe, you know, I takea lot of damage, but I get to
decide whether reversing time isworth taking that damage or not.

(11:57):
So I I think I would have ratherhad that risk reward decision
there. Yeah, sometimes we use the word
gimmick affectionately. Sometimes we use it to kind of
describe something that maybe isa little bit shoddily done or or
hokey or not really, you know, thought through.
And it seems like this mechanic is how this game is trying to
stand out. And so maybe maybe it is sort of

(12:19):
gimmicky, but it is trying to say like, this is what I am.
This is how I'm different from other games.
And I, I think it, it fell a little, maybe just a little bit
too hard on that. Some enemy behaviors seem
inconsistent, but specifically the one I mentioned earlier, the
pistol robots with the riot Shields, they do exactly what
you think you're they're supposed to do.

(12:41):
They move their shield of fire at you.
But to like Juke them into starting their animation doesn't
behave in the way you expect it to.
So you really have to really, really put yourself in in a
dangerous line of fire to to make that cycle trigger.
And there's a lot of enemies that behave in this way.

(13:01):
They're just like don't behave in the way that you expect or
that you're used to, or that seem different from encounter to
encounter. This game does what Gunvault
games do, where Kohaku and EB are having voice acted
conversations during the platforming sections, but it
also throws the text on the screen in a way that is
unobtrusive. The problem with all of this is

(13:23):
that the voice acting is in Japanese, and because the text
is like not obtrusive, I'm not able to read it and I can't
listen to it and understand what's going on.
So I'm not absorbing anything that's happening during the
action that they're delivering it to me.
That's also a complaint in like the first couple of Gunvolt
games that are only voice acted in Japanese as well You.

(13:44):
Almost need to look up a playthrough and watch someone.
Watch someone at your own pace and read.
Just focus on those. Words.
Exactly, that seems like the only way to do it.
Or I could just like stop playing the game.
But that's contrary to the pointof playing these fast-paced Mega
Man 0 Gunvault kind of games. Another complaint is that the

(14:04):
game just gets too hard like at the end of stage 5 story things
happen and you have to go through the 1st 5 stages again
but this time they're harder. The game does tell you as much
and offers you the option to go into like a casual mode and
based on the boss at the end of stage 5I like I was like yes
sign me up like that's what I want to do casual mode all the

(14:26):
way. So I clearly the game is, is
going to be too much of a challenge for me to beat
normally. And then Speaking of the boss at
the end of stage 5, this is thisis going to be maybe a little
bit of a spoiler. So I'm going to try and keep it
vague because of story stuff. In order to proceed in the game,

(14:48):
Kohaku must lose the fight at the end of stage 5.
And Kohaku like kind of agrees to this plan.
But in this case, you know, there's there's this life bar.
So I'm thinking that this is like similar to a Mega Man X
fight with vial. You're meant to lose, but
because you have a life bar, maybe if you're just like

(15:09):
totally cracked, you beat the boss on the first try, you get
access to this like new silly ending or whatever.
But that's not the case. You lose and you have to start
the boss fight over. So you still have to win this
incredibly hard boss fight in order to then also lose after
the boss fight. And that fight alone took me

(15:30):
something like 45 minutes, maybemore.
So it just it felt like I was wasting my time.
It did ultimately help me against the boss the second time
around, the harder version of this boss, but I could have just
learned those move sets the second time around.
Like, I don't know, it was just like, hey, Kohaku, in order for

(15:51):
us to, like, fix this situation,you have to die.
And Kohaku's like, yeah, OK. And then I I was like, all
right, sounds great. Let's do it.
Let's lose. This boss fight doesn't matter.
And it kind of made me mad, if I'm honest.
Oh no. Did you introduce your hand to a
local tabletop? Your fist rather.
Did I? I don't.

(16:11):
I don't remember if I did or not.
For this I might have. But then last, the ultimate
conclusion once you do go back through the stages again doesn't
seem totally congruent with whatI understand to be the overall
situation and story along the way.
Like I can kind of tell that I got a happy ending, but I don't,
I don't really know like how howthis is the ending exactly.

(16:35):
But I know that to a point this has to do with maybe my poor
reading comprehension skills, like I'm maybe just missing
stuff along the way. So in the end, I really love the
visual identity of Kojin and thecontrols meet my expectations of
an inti create style platformer.But so many of the systems that
give Kojin its unique identity end up slowing the game down,

(17:00):
and it does that frequently whenI play a game like this.
I want to just, I just want to dash and slash and crash.
I just want to go, man. I just want to go but the story,
like most stories with time travel or simulations, feels
kind of inconsequential. But I also am not necessarily
looking for a good story. To be fair, there is room to

(17:20):
find joy for people that love learning levels and then beating
them faster and faster and more skillfully the next time.
So I guess if there's a demo maybe test it out and if you can
jive with the Uroboros system then I do highly recommend this
to you. I didn't love the Uroboros
system and that has a lot to do with the game so for me this is

(17:41):
a 7 point O all. Right.
And I'm reading more about this game on Nintendo's website and
and other places and I'm seeing descriptions of this sword, Exa
Breaker. And it's described as a sardonic
sword, a sword with character, you know, a sword with attitude.
And we've this isn't the first time we've had swords that talk
to us in games, too. Yeah, he is very much our foil.

(18:04):
We are trying to like find joy and compassion in him and he's
just like, I'm not programmed for that.
Let's go. Yeah, So I, I guess I was just
curious, even though it is a sword, how does it compare to
other companions you've had in games?
Is it is it among your favoritesor was having a tough time
getting the story through the text making that a little

(18:25):
challenging? As far as like other companions
we've had in games like middle of the pack, like he's not just
like a total ass hat like Guru or whatever from bat boy.
But you know, I don't. I don't want to save him like
the transistor from transistor. Sure, there's there's a depth
there. Yeah, yeah, he's just, he is

(18:46):
giving me my goal cuz I am literally just waking up in this
strange facility. Cool, well I had not heard of
this. It's another very interesting
entry into this world of like 2Daction platformers.
Where can you play Kojin? Sort of rewind?
All right, Kojin sort of rewind is on Xbox Series X&S, Xbox One,
Switch, Windows and I played thephysical edition for PS4 and

(19:11):
even though this is only 7 pointO for me, it is on my top 100
Indies between Totem and Flow. All right, it is time for my
secret game. My secret game is called The
Room 3. I just listened to the Room 2

(19:49):
episode like the other day. It's time for the Room 3
already. It's, I always think like, oh
man, it's going to be so long before I get to review the next
one and then and then it's time.And then it's time like
clockwork. Yeah, baby.
Is there a clockwork puzzle in this?
There is a clock tower. Oh, wait, hold on.
Yeah, there's like a clock towerish place I'm looking up the
names of. Yeah, there's a clock tower.

(20:11):
It's actually called the Clock Tower.
All right, well, jokes worked. Yeah, there you go.
So the Room 3 is the third game in the Room series.
Obviously it is a puzzle game first released in 2015, which
surprised me seeing that becauseI thought it was much newer.
So it's it's about 10 years old already.
Yeah, how? What room are we on now?

(20:32):
Like 5. Well, they released the room 4,
but before that they had a VR room game and I don't know that
I'll play that one, but my plan is to get through all of the non
VR games in this series. So there's going to be one more
next season that I review so look forward to that.
But these games are developed and published by Fireproof

(20:54):
games. The game synopsis from the steam
storefront reads quote. Lured to a remote island, you
find yourself confined within the rooms of a an ominous
mansion. You must draw upon all your
puzzle solving ability to navigate a series of trials
devised by a mysterious figure known only as the Craftsman.
Do you have what it takes to escape?

(21:15):
End Quote. So as I'm making my way through
these games, these are actually replays through the Room 3.
I've not played the Room 4, but this is again a revisit of a
game I've played in the past. I last played it in 2019, so
it's been, you know, a good number of years now, and by that
point it was already four years old apparently.

(21:36):
Apparently so this is a first person puzzle game that takes
place after the Room 2. In the previous two Room games,
there's this character of AS that we're following and AS has
disappeared. But you, this character
throughout these games, still dream about the Knoll, which is
the Fifth Element, and it is thecentral mystery and force behind

(22:00):
what's going on in this series. It is very powerful.
The Knoll can transfer matter across space and time, and it's
how you're able to explore all the rooms in all of the room
games. You have received a map and a
vague invitation to visit an island mansion called Greyhound,
which is the home of the Craftsman who is testing your

(22:23):
ability to pass his trials. And the Craftsman is leaving you
all these notes and is telling you that he knows the source of
the Knoll, but he can't reach itwithout a worthy assistant of
some kind. And so you're the next one.
Apparently there's been a long series of people who have tried
these trials and they haven't made it through so.
Kind of feels like amnesia to me.

(22:44):
It's kind of is. It's got an Amnesia vibe with
its setting and its story. And so you have to prove
yourself worthy. And the Craftsman is already
like before you get to the mansion, giving you this new
lens to affix to your eyepiece, which you use in all of these
games to see things differently and to see traces of the Knoll.

(23:06):
You get a new lens that he's made for you and that lets you
explore the inner workings of devices.
So there are lots of moments in this game where you're opening
up a model and you see like a a little shimmery sort of effects.
And that means you can throw on your eyepiece and actually go
into that thing like you're a miniature person exploring

(23:29):
around inside the inner workingsof objects.
So that's kind of different in this game.
But there are 4 main chapters. There's the lighthouse, the
clock tower, the forge and the observatory.
And then there's a a final shorter sequence and depending
on how you do that final sequence and what optional items

(23:50):
you might bring to that final sequence, you could get one of
four different endings to this game.
And this is a new thing for thisseries.
There in the past have only beenthere's only been one ending, I
believe. And so now we have 4.
There's a default one. But then after you finish the
game, you can go re explore Greyhound to find more hidden
items and puzzles to find these optional endings.

(24:14):
And like previous titles, this is an escape room style puzzle
game. So you've got lots of buttons
and switches, you're looking forkeys to locks, you're using
everyday objects in very unconventional ways, and each
room has intricate models and devices you tinker with.
And along the way you're hopefully figuring out what the

(24:35):
Craftsman is up to and how the Knoll plays into what you're
doing. So this is what I liked about
the Room 3. With the Room 3, I think this
series continues to refine its puzzles and setting.
The Room 1 was all about moving from puzzle box to puzzle box,
and it kind of felt connected, but kind of not.

(24:57):
The Room 2 was sort of more of the same, but it had a better
variety in styles of puzzles andaesthetics between all the
rooms. But in the Room 3, you're
walking around this mansion and things feel more interconnected,
and it has the strongest sense of place of any of these three
games so far. So there is variety throughout

(25:20):
all of these rooms, but they each feel like they belong in
Gray Home all the same. So it feels like, you know, a
place where all of these rooms would exist.
And I like that a lot. The puzzles are tuned just
right. I think the puzzles in the room
three strike this balance of having like a lot of quantity of
steps to figure out, but also like a difficulty that's

(25:42):
approachable for me. In the room 2, some items were
obtusely hidden. I thought the difficulty was
mostly pretty great, but sometimes you'd need to open a
drawer and then like look on theunderside of a drawer to find a
hidden object, and I just never would think of that.
This game doesn't really do that.
It's more about finding things, examining the room, and thinking

(26:06):
about how those objects you've found can be used within the
room. So it feels like maybe more like
some of the escape rooms I've played in the past.
Also, I sometimes there's this surprising sequencing of items
that you pick up. You will know that you have to
get a key for a door. There's this door that you
obviously need to open. It has a keyhole.

(26:29):
And you start doing some steps in the room to figure stuff out.
And you might think, oh, now I'mgoing to get the key, baby.
But you get a chess piece. And so then it's like, what do
I, what do I do with this chess piece?
And then you walk around and youfigure out what to do with the
chess piece. And then it's like, oh, yeah,
now it's time for that key. And you get a jewel.
And then it's like, what do I dowith this jewel?
And then you walk around, you figure out where the jewel goes,

(26:50):
and it's like, oh, yeah, now it's time for the key, baby.
And then you get a wooden handle.
You know, it's not quite what you need.
So I like that this game is surprising me with all these
unpredictable sequences of items.
It makes it hard to know when each room is going to be done
sometimes, but I kind of like that.
I kind of like not knowing how much is left and where this is

(27:12):
going. Also with Greyhound, the harder
more optional puzzles after the first ending that gives you
something to do beyond the default ending.
And just for full honesty here, I didn't do all of the
additional endings this time, but I did them back in 2019 and
I remember liking cleaning that up and and finding all those

(27:34):
like harder to see details. And then the visual fidelity and
the set design feel like a big improvement from the previous
games in the room 3. I get to some things I don't
like as much with this game here, and I think like above
all, when it comes to how this game feels to play and how it's
drawing me in, the location thatwe're in pulls me in more so

(27:58):
than the character of the Craftsman who's leaving you all
of these notes and whose home itis that you're exploring.
It feels like the Craftsman is filling this role that the
character of A S was filling before, and it's just this like
disembodied voice leaving all these notes to you.
And what is written never reallyexplores anything interesting.

(28:22):
So it feels like I'm supposed tocare about where this weird guy
is leading me, and it's really just the place that we're in.
That's what draws me in. OK, so early question.
Compared to AS is the Craftsman better, worse or like almost
exactly the same? It doesn't matter that they're
different. The things that, AS would say to

(28:42):
you, were sometimes a little more abstract, I feel, whereas
the Craftsman sometimes seems more like mustache twirling and
and how he's like devising all of these traps for you and he's
like you'll never at first he's like, oh, we'll see if you pass
my test, you silly person, and then you start doing more yes,
and you start doing more and then he's like wow, I see you

(29:04):
might have promise and then you do more and he's like you are
needed on this grand adventure. You know, so it's like all these
broad strokes. I feel like where as ASI think
maybe did some of that stuff, but honestly I I kind of blocked
a lot of that stuff out of my memory even though I've now
played those. Finding a story in a Mega Man
game it is. Kind of, yeah.
And then a lot of the places that you solve in this game,

(29:27):
they are, you know, the rooms that you're in, but they're
actually composed of several different connecting rooms.
And you need to click on doorways to go into like side
rooms all the time to pick up items.
And sometimes just the act of moving from room to room feels a
little slow because there has tobe this animation of you walking
in the first person through the doorway, and it takes several

(29:49):
seconds. And that time of going back and
forth sometimes adds up. And it just kind of slows down
the pacing and then the level. The forge in particular felt
tiring because of this. To me.
It just seemed like it went on alittle too long.
But overall, The Room 3 is my favorite game in the series so
far. We'll see what the Room 4 does.

(30:11):
I haven't played that one yet. The Room 3 has such a strong
sense of place, with a cohesive tone and puzzles that are
consistently rewarding. If I'm remembering correctly, I
rated the Room 1A7. The Room 2 was a noticeable
improvement. I think I gave that an eighth.
Correct. I'm going to give the room 3 and

(30:34):
8.5. That's what I wrote down.
Just think it keeps getting better and better and it's
playable on PC which is where I played it, Android and iOS.
Yeah, I don't think I have any questions, really.
Is puzzle difficulty, since we're apparently the same person
throughout all three games, Is puzzle difficulty noticeably

(30:54):
amplified from Game 2 game? Or is it just kind of like a
Metroid game where you're just like starting at the bottom and
then you get back to where you were at the end of the last
game? So you mean like puzzle
difficulty increases the more wego through the game?
Throughout the series. Throughout the series, yeah.
No, I would say the the style ofpuzzle and like what the puzzles

(31:14):
are asking of you are more refined in three, where in the
room 2 puzzles got a little bit harder or maybe.
But by the end there was just some really obtuse things I had
to do in that final rim. And I had to use the hint
system. And the hint system returns in
this game, but I wasn't using itas much because I think the
placement of things and the logic of what the rooms are

(31:36):
about is much more intuitive forme.
So I don't think it's like necessarily easier or harder,
but it just feels like I get on the wavelength of this game
more. So I guess maybe it is sort of
easier in that way. OK.
Yeah, interesting. OK, so that's, yeah, that's all
I really wanted to know. It looks pretty pretty much like

(31:57):
the next game in a series and maybe just with better fidelity.
So yeah, I get the point. And it like this is the game
from the first three that I remembered the most vividly just
because of Greyhound. And I remembered that library, I
remembered the study, I remembered the clock tower.
All these places were easier forme to like, remember because
they all connect. They all you can imagine the

(32:18):
geography of where they all are versus like in the other games,
you're just hopping from puzzle to puzzle and doesn't really
seem like you're in one place. You're traveling across space
and time or you're, you know, you're just being shown all
these rooms and so. I'm interested to see where the
room for brings us because I feel like we're at like a like a

(32:39):
whatever that point on the hero's journey chart, we're at
this like one point. So we have to be getting to the
end at least in two more games, it kind of feels like.
So it it seems like I don't knowit they really took a swerve
with not focusing on a so you would know what happens sort of
at the end of the room to like why AS isn't around.

(32:59):
But now there's just this other guy and now I don't know if the
Craftsman shows up in the room 4.
We'll see. So those are our secret games,
Kojin, Sword of Rewind, and The Room 3.
Let's move on to our interview with Jeremy Reinek of Moon Soul
Games, this episode's special guest.

(33:32):
Today's special guest is cool, to be sure.
He made a game of grand adventure, a big RPG with
difficulty. It's time to get a little closer
with a talented composer of MoonSoul Games.
Jeremy is his name. How's it going?
Hey, it's not expecting that. Yeah, we, we.

(33:54):
Invite the beautiful poem. That's, that's all Bobo, baby.
We invite everybody on and he hetakes the reins on those rhymes.
It's. Amazing.
So Jeremy, thank you so much forjoining us.
You're Jeremy Reinek of Moon Soul Games, and you made Grand
Soul Story, and actually you provided a download code for one

(34:18):
of us to play the game, and Disco has played the game.
Can you give us just a brief pitch about Grand Soul Story for
listener context for anybody whodoesn't know?
Sure. Yeah, Grand Soul Story.
It's it's kind of a retro Super Nintendo era JRPG.
It's an open-ended game that's not necessarily open world, but

(34:42):
you know, you can kind of shape the narrative the way that you
that you choose. The basic premise is that you're
a refugee kind of escaping from a war-torn country and you're
trying to make it to the port city of Yerdan where your family
is waiting. But to get there, you have to
travel through this place calledDuPont.
It's a city state that's kind ofat war.

(35:03):
There's a lot of stuff going on.There's, you know, Syndicate,
there's kind of technocratic spots and all kinds of stuff
going on and then all the peoplesort of carrying the weight of
all this. And you made a motley crew,
scoundrels and vagabonds and, and try to make your way

(35:23):
through. And I guess the open-ended part
of the game is that you can get as involved or or not with the
main story as you want, but basically you're just trying to
get enough money to sort of travel to this place to see your
family. Well, while you were saying
that, I was looking at Disco just sort of nodding his head,
probably remembering, remembering all these details
and thinking about his own journey through the game.

(35:46):
So we want to ask you up first what what got you into game
development and what led you to making Grand Soul Story?
Yeah, I mean, I'm a, I'm a lifelong gamer to have
incredibly magical memories as achild playing Final Fantasy 6:00
and 7:00 and 8:00 and 9:00. You know, I've discovered a lot

(36:08):
of great games as an adult. And I'm a I'm a musician by not
by trade, but by passion. And I love composing.
Yeah. The two just came together, I
guess three years ago now. It had been a lifelong dream to
kind of create my own game and started on RPG Maker, which is
kind of a low coding, user friendly sort of game

(36:31):
development software. I just started poking around and
then enjoyed the process so muchthat I, I started to develop a
game around sort of the RPG Maker format and it just sort of
grew and grew. And probably like 1/4 of the way

(36:51):
through, I had a sense like, oh,this is going to be kind of a
relatively big game. So, you know, really started
thinking about the characters and, and the story and arcs and
started composing a lot of musicfor it.
So it, it kind of just happened.It wasn't necessarily like I set
out with the intention to createthis particular game.

(37:13):
I just started enjoying the process of creating and then
started to fine tune it over time and and realize what what
it was. Yeah, I really love those
creative ventures where eventually just sort of starts
spilling out of your mouth, you know?
You're just kind. Of like it just kind of falls
out of you like some bad mucus or something.
And then when it's enough piecesare out, it all starts to

(37:33):
coalesce into something greater than the sum of its parts for
some of those parts. What are some main inspirations?
Maybe games from your past that you've played, that you're
inspired by when putting together Grand Soul Story.
I think the main game that I it really inspired, it was actually
Bollader's Gate 2, which I hadn't discovered until I was an

(37:57):
adult and just found it to be like one of the best games I'd
ever played. I think the thing that inspired
me the most about that game is that it's quite open-ended, but
any nook and cranny you go into,there's like a whole adventure
there. And I designed Gretzel's story
to the best of my ability to be something where you could
actually miss a lot of interesting content, which to me

(38:17):
makes the world feel quite big. My hope is that you could play
it through a couple times and have sort of different
experiences, you know, And the premise of the game was
definitely inspired by Baldur's Gate too, which is the beginning
of the game. You're trying to get like 20,000
gold all together to go find your friend or something, which
is sort of inspired the the premise of Gransel's story.

(38:39):
So yeah, there's that elements of open-ended storytelling with
Baldur's Gate too. You know, Final Fantasy 6, just
because I'm, I'm not a, I'm not a pixel artist, I didn't really
have the, the means or the coding skills to do much more
than like a 16 bit RPG, you know, but at the same time, I, I

(39:01):
absolutely love that style. I think the older that I've
gotten, the more I appreciate just sort of more simplistic
graphics. The days of being like really
impressed by, you know, the mosthigh definition graphics is
that's kind of over for me. I I prefer something a little
more simple, so I I actually appreciate that.

(39:21):
But yeah, in terms of the inspiration, that's the baldest
gate two, Final Fantasy 6 and probably Final Fantasy 7 in
terms of the that particular type of it's not like cyberpunk,
but it's this kind of grimy urban.
I don't know what what genre youwould call that, but it's it's

(39:42):
quite specific. So a lot of that was inspired
by, that's the main city called Midgar.
Yeah, it's a lot of it was inspired by Midgar.
You say a lot of these games andjust instantly you're conjuring
the the picture in a lot of people's minds just because,
yeah, yeah, they're well known places.
They're well known games for sure.
Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
Well, I'm not quite as familiar with a lot of JRPGS that don't

(40:06):
necessarily have Digimon in them.
So I'm, I'm curious about specifically your inspirations
for like the battle system, because I noticed there's a
couple things in the battle system that I personally haven't
seen in other games myself. But I'm just sort of curious,
like what bits and pieces do youlike from other games that sort
of culminated in the battle system for Grand Soul Story?

(40:29):
Well, I guess one of the first things is that the battle
system, at least initially, it was really difficult.
I wanted the game to be kind of punishing.
And I guess that was inspired byAldersgate 2.
I was kind of getting into some more like hardcore games at the
time, a little like some rogue lights and stuff.
And I was like, I kind of like it when you just die to like a

(40:50):
rat or something in the beginning, you know, and you
just, you just feel really powerless until you kind of
grind your way and you and then some way into the game you have
the satisfying feeling of havingovercome, you know, But in terms
of the actual battle system is is definitely up to path
Traveller too. I don't know if you've played
that game, but it was quite a few pieces were just lifted from

(41:11):
that because I thought that was a great system.
And the thing I don't don't likeabout that game is the random
battle. So I wanted to have, you know,
enemies appear on screen that you can kind of avoid.
But otherwise it's it's pretty inspired by Octopath.
It's cool hearing you talk about, you know, what you're
inspired by with other games andrealizing what you also don't
like about those games. And every time you make a tweak,

(41:34):
you're making it your own. You're sort of helping to build
the identity of what makes your game different.
I love hearing about that. Yeah, yeah.
No, that's true. So in your game, the just with
the story and the the conversations that happened, I
understand that there are some heavier topics that are explored
like geopolitical unrest and drug addiction.

(41:56):
What is it like to write about these sort of heavier topics for
a game like yours, and how do you approach these topics?
Well, I mean, first of all, something I'm quite happy
disclosing, but I'm, I'm in recovery myself.
I've been, I've been playing it sober for 11 years.
And so it's a, it's a personal thank you.
Yeah, it's, it's personally meaningful for me.

(42:18):
And, and it's not something I felt like I'd seen and, you
know, definitely not like 16 bitRPGs as far as far as I know,
you know, So I, I thought it'd be interesting to bring in some,
you know, something that was personal that I felt like I
could speak to from experience and the geopolitical conflict.
Yeah. I mean, I guess I feel like I

(42:39):
live in a time where maybe because of just just a massive
kind of misinformation and how hard it is to kind of pin down a
single narrative of what's goingon.
I just feel a bit cynical maybe,or, or a little bit politically
not apathetic, but just, yeah, I'm sure.
So I just, I wanted to reflect some of that in the game where

(43:03):
there's not really a good or badguy.
They're just different sides. And as you kind of explore the
different paths, I think you, you recognize that there's,
there's this idealism for a cause on the surface, but if you
dig a little bit deeper, it's just people in power trying to
get, you know, trying to get their way.

(43:24):
I guess. And yeah, I recognize a lot of
that grand soul story and even even just down to like what to
do with the random drug pickups that you find throughout the
world. It's like you have opportunities
to offer drugs to someone who's in significant amount of pain or
you have options to like withhold that and tell them to

(43:47):
get into recovery. And you have options to like,
even I'm trying to like you. You mentioned Gransel's story
being sort of like open-ended asfar as like what you decide to
do. I'm struggling with like
deciding to even sell the drugs at a shop if that's like
something I want to do because it's like at this point I'm

(44:07):
participating in, in selling drugs.
And so it's like trying to figure out who you are is, is
like, there's no one true, like right thing in my mind as far as
like what to do. So it's, it's, I think you did
that very successfully. Definitely wanted it to be a

(44:28):
kind of a grey world, yeah. And and continue to be grey,
Yeah, throughout the story. And there's certain factions
that I like, started to sympathize with more than others
and just like, trying to decide which one was the right one just
because I was like, not getting the money I needed.
I kind of had to pick 1. So I was just like, what would I

(44:50):
get? This is the one, I guess so,
yeah. But yeah, you did that very
successfully, so kudos to you onthat.
Cool. I specifically wanted to ask you
about sprites. You'd mentioned that maybe
you're not like super capable pixel artist, but I did notice
that there are a lot of different levels of pixel

(45:11):
sprites. Like you have your overworld
sprites, you have your enemy battle sprites and then your map
sprites and even like there's ingame photographs.
And so I kind of wanted to talk about the process of creating
all those different Sprite styles and Grand Soul Story.
How did that come about? Well, the, the sprites or the

(45:31):
characters, I'm, I'm trying to remember the, the name of this
guy because I want to give him ashout out because he does great
work. But it's, it's like a, it's like
a Sprite character generator. I think it's called time
elements. But he's a guy on on itch dot IO
that just has like a, a simple program to put together
different sprites. So I use that for the sprites I

(45:52):
took a long time to find becauseI was using some, it was almost
like 8 bit and it just didn't really fit with the environment.
But another good thing is that alot of the a lot of the
graphics, like the tile sets are, are just sort of the
standard RPG maker. But I, I did pixelate everything
because I, I didn't really like the quality of the the tile

(46:14):
sets, just the vanilla tile setswhere it, it just looked like
too clean and I wanted to have abit more of a 16 bit style, so.
Yeah, I appreciate that myself. I I also have that feeling about
the default tile. Sets.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, it's a good base, but I
wanted to yeah, to to pixelate it a bit more, but also to make

(46:35):
it mesh with the other sprites. You guys may kick me off your
show as I say this, but the, youknow, some of it I did use AI to
create the the pictures and alsothe the battle sprites.
And I won't be doing that in thesequel.
But but, you know, as a first time developer, I had no idea

(46:56):
how this thing would turn out. But I, I put I put thousands of
hours into it, so I wanted to have have, you know, battle
sprites that looks good. And I just was unable to find
anything on the Internet. And I don't have the money to
hire a pixel artist unfortunately, to create all the
battle sprites. So the battle sprites are AI,

(47:17):
but took a long time actually. Like each one took at least like
20 prompts and then and then kind of enabling the image and
cutting it out and stuff. So it did take some work, but
out the work of a real pixel artist way I highly respect.
I think that's pretty much all of the art in the game.

(47:38):
OK. Yeah.
So one thing I noticed is that'sactually a disclosure on the
Steam page for Grand Soul Story.You see a note about the the AI
arts. And I think you talk about
something really real there thatyou are kind of faced with this
decision. And I imagine it must be kind of
a hard one to make it first. Maybe you're not even aware of

(48:00):
all the different avenues you could go down for finding arts
or making arts or contracting arts out of somebody else.
And I know that it's a it's sortof a big topic now, not just in
games, but in all kinds of mediaand all kinds of jobs everywhere
is, is the topic of AI. And so yeah, it's it's kind of
like a either the game is made or or not at a certain.

(48:24):
Point, yeah. So you talked a little bit
earlier about how you want to encourage people to replay the
game. Like, you have so much content
in there and so many endings andso many dozens of hours of
content that you maybe want to encourage someone to get to the
end and then be curious about maybe another playthrough or

(48:44):
looking up more about the game after they're done.
With so much content in your game, how did you know when you
were done working on it? Is there a time where you just
think, Oh yeah, I'm done workingon Grand Soul Story?
Honestly, the thing that that made me finish the game is I
started working on the sequel and I got really excited about
the sequel. So I said, OK, I kind of need to

(49:07):
redirect my creative energy. Yeah, I'm definitely a person
that's very driven by passion, and if I feel really passionate
about something, I'm just going to put all my effort into that.
So, so I think that's what finally released me from from
the first game, but I have put alot of effort into bug testing
the game and adding different features and balancing the
difficulty. And I had a wonderful friend

(49:32):
that I found by chance on Instagram who bug tested the
entire game. He put in like probably 100
hours of bug testing just for free.
He just enjoys bug testing and gave me the most in depth notes.
So I doubt that the game is perfect by any means now, but
it's a lot better than it was because of this guy at

(49:54):
Francesco. Italian gentleman here that
would add so. So that's interesting.
I didn't. So I didn't know there was going
to be a sequel. I'm learning all this right now.
You're working on these games sort of concurrently at a
certain point, like there's there's overlap in a way.
Is working on the first game helpful for seeing it right in

(50:15):
front of your eyes every day? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
No big time. Yeah.
You learn like anything, you know, you learn a lot by just
doing it. And I think I just, I kind of
suffered a lot with the first game because I had to do things
retroactively. Like I realized, like this
doesn't really work or this doesn't really make sense

(50:35):
because I don't really know how to plan or develop a game, you
know? So I just, I had to then go back
through the entire game and try to fix all these things, which
just took a lot of time. So this time around, I'm just a
lot more intentional. I think that just comes from,
you know, some experience doing doing the thing.
Well I I definitely hope it can be your your Mega Man 2 of the

(50:56):
Grand Soul. Saga.
So there's a lot of playable characters that can join your
party in Grand Soul Story. I want to know if you have a
particular favorite. Is there a character that you
enjoyed writing and or designingthe most?
I mean, I feel like all of thesecharacters have a great amount
of depth, but some of them have like depth that I relate to a

(51:20):
little bit more easily. So I I guess I'm just wondering
where you fall with with these characters.
Yeah, I mean, I, I relate a lot to to Elsie.
She's probably the best fleshed out character, you know, just
because she she struggles with addiction.
She's a person with a kind of a,a difficult past.
And depending on what you do with her, she can get sober and

(51:41):
kind of find some resolution or not.
To be frank. I think that's something I want
to focus on in the second game is being a little more
intentional about character arcsgoing into it and knowing, OK,
this is the internal motivation of this character.
This is the external motivation of this character.
This is what they want. This is what's getting in the

(52:02):
way. And like, because I think in the
first game, I was a English major in school, I was just kind
of going by feel like what feelsgood?
What you know for this character, what seems like a
compelling kind of dilemma they have to go through, you know,
but hadn't really planned it outnecessarily.
So just getting myself introduced to the world of story
planning and character planning and making sure everything fits

(52:26):
fits well together. Cool.
Well, I mean, I think you've gota great starting point.
I I also love Elsie and I love Billy and I, I, you know, if, if
your character writing only getsstronger in the second one, then
I think you'll, you'll be in great shape.
Thank you. Jeremy, in addition to the Grand
Soul Story soundtrack, you also have a good amount of music

(52:48):
available under the name Moon Soul.
Is that right? Yeah, yeah.
Could you talk about your music journey and just what it's like
to create music for this soundtrack for Grand Soul Story
versus your other music? I mean that the music that I
make is more like jazz and and soul music in terms of the
difference. I guess it's a little bit like

(53:10):
the the story writing or the character writing is that I I
just sort of went with gut feel like what what what feels good
in the scene, what sounds good. But yeah, I guess like in in the
sequel, for example, I've attached like an instrument to
each character. So each character is represented
by a particular sound, you know,sort of different characters are

(53:31):
coming together. Then you might hear also the
instruments coming together alsodoing more with like motifs, you
know, repeating melodies and stuff.
So I'm thinking a little bit more globally about how the
soundtrack is working together to kind of implement the story.
Where as I feel like in the first game, what what kind of
music is going to make this likeSpooky Lake feel really, you

(53:52):
know, immersive, I guess. So it's a little more kind of
gut feel. OK.
Just from like a physical standpoint, like when you're
doing your your more traditionaljazz soul kind of funk music,
are you like physically playing those instruments and recording
them? Like when you're doing the video
game stuff, is this all like in a DAW where you're going almost

(54:13):
note by note? Like how's, how's it different
even physically? Yeah, my, this, my, my music is
a lot more like lives kind of record live.
I did, I did a lot of it to tapeactually.
So it was just a direct performance into tape.
But the, the, the game soundtrack, it's, it's more like
in the box, you know, I come up with a melody, fill it out.

(54:36):
It's cool. You can tinker with things
afterwards. So that's, that's the fun of
recording. And I use Ableton Live.
Oh, OK. So you can come up with a melody
and then kind of shift stuff around afterwards, do multiple
things. But yeah, it's all it's all
MIDI. OK, cool.
In the box. Cool.
Got it. OK, so Grand Soul story, that

(54:57):
was a total solo development. You know, we hear a lot about
solo developments that are like mostly solo, but not solo.
This, this seems like one of those ones that was like pretty
much a solo development. And I'm, I'm just curious, like
if you had resources for a bigger team, what would you have
done differently in Grand Soul story?
If you had a bigger team for Grand Soul Story 2, which we

(55:19):
know is coming, what would you do for Grand Soul Story 2?
I'm just curious like if resources were not an issue,
what's what's your dream I. Mean, I, I guess if Sky's the
limit, probably not working in RPG Maker.
I guess working with a coder whocan just just have a little bit
more control over how the game looks and stuff, you know, make
a Bush that can blow in the windand something like that.

(55:43):
But yeah, probably just a coder and then the pixel artist,
somebody who can create originalpixel artwork.
But it's, it's quite expensive. So yeah, it's going to be
another solo project. I'm sure working on a game solo,
even though you know, you're kind of doing everything
yourself and that can be intimidating and like props to

(56:04):
you for doing all of it. There is freedom that you're
allowed. You know, there's there's
probably less roadblocks to in some ways and just being able to
make sure that your vision comesout how you're imagining it.
That's also valuable too, I think.
Jeremy, what else do you do for work or fun?
And maybe what have you done previously to game development?

(56:27):
No, I mean, this is a passion project 100%.
I, I, I made more money on this than I thought I would, which
is, which is really great. But I'm a, I'm a psychotherapist
by trade. I was an English teacher before.
I, I play music in the city. I live in New York City and hang
out with my wife, go walking. We're pretty introverted.

(56:47):
We chill at home a lot. We're actually trying to get out
and do like more things in the city 'cause we're live in New
York. So it's like, yeah, we probably
shouldn't just spend so much time being cozy at home.
I, to be honest, I, I really just, I really enjoy game
development. I had no idea.
But it's, it's incredibly stimulating and engaging

(57:07):
creative process. You know, I think doing it solo,
you know, is, is that much more stimulating 'cause it's, it's
keeping the whole story, you know, a whole world.
You know, I'll be going on a runAnd like, think of the name for
like AT that should be in the game.
Like, oh, that's a cool name forlike a seed that you find that
you can make it see with, you know, what if, what if this

(57:29):
little detail of the character'sback story meshes with this
other one? And you know, so it's, it's like
this, it's a wonderful mental exercise.
Yeah, all the little piece, all the millions of little pieces,
sort of just. Shower moments is what I call
this. Yeah, shower moments.
Yeah, anytime. That's awesome.
The past five to 10 years, I've seen a lot of discussions online

(57:53):
about the classification of JRP GS.
You know what makes a JRPGAJRPG?Some people would argue that,
you know, JRPG stands for Japanese RPG.
So maybe only RPGs made in Japanshould be considered JRPGS?
Or maybe JRPG is an idea that can be emulated and then maybe

(58:16):
iterated upon, and so all RPGs that sort of follow that formula
are a JRPG. Or maybe it's a vibe thing.
Maybe a game feels like a JRPG because of its world or its
story. Where do you fall on this,
Jeremy? Do you have a take on the JRPG
classification? And for the record, you're not
going to offend either of us because I don't think either of

(58:38):
us have a strong opinion. I think we're still undecided.
Yeah, honestly. I mean, I guess you can help
define it by thinking of what's not a JRPG.
Yeah, yeah. The the role-playing aspect I
think is less emphasized in my what I've seen in JRP GS, it's
not so much like you create a character and then you role play

(58:58):
like a Dungeons and Dragons influenced experience.
Whereas in a lot of western RP GS, I find that to be more of
the case. But in the JRPGI feel like
you're dropped into a world witha preset characters, usually
some kind of turn based or you know, whatever the the new
square version of that is. I mean it seems like a more

(59:23):
defined narrative. I don't.
Maybe I'm just making that out, but to me it seems like western
RPGs generally have a little bitmore of AD and D element.
Yeah, I definitely see that. Yeah, I definitely see.
That I think in general I fall pretty close to where you do on
this like argument is. I guess some people get heated

(59:43):
about it. Discussion.
Yeah, yeah, slightly heated discussion sometimes, but.
Generally, that's where I fall on.
Yeah, I feel like what you just said makes sense to me.
Yeah. So and then finally, Jeremy, we
already know about the sequel, but what are you looking forward
to doing next, either in game development or otherwise?
We know you might be getting a dog too, so we might, yeah.

(01:00:04):
We know you. Might be getting out a little
bit more. And seeing the city yeah, yeah,
I mean that that would be that would be smart.
My my, my job is, is wonderful and and intense.
And I've, I've kind of started it in earnest pretty recently.
So I think it, it is helpful forme to on the weekends, like do

(01:00:29):
nothing like turn my brain off and not be so engaged in this,
in this really intense process of game development.
So what the future holds is probably a little bit more
balance. I was going to school mostly
when I was developing Grandson'sstory.
And somehow I had more like cognitive space to work on the
game then. But now that I'm working and I'm

(01:00:50):
with real people and it's, there's a lot of notes and it's,
it's, it's a can be an intense process emotionally.
I noticed that I need to. Yeah, on the weekends, just like
sit in a chair not doing anything, you know, and just
hang out with my wife and make some food and take it easy.

(01:01:11):
So that that has slowed down thesequel development a little bit
just because I, yeah, sort of balancing my own, my own
well-being, need to not be stimulated quite so much.
Well, we wish you the best of luck with continuing to find
that balance and that's you continue to be patient and and

(01:01:32):
do that self-care that you need to do to do the things both
professionally and on the side that you want to do.
It's it's hard to fit all of thethings in whatever 24 * 7 is
hours a week. Exactly.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Well, Jeremy, it's been wonderful to talk to you about
your game development, about Grand Soul Story, about your
perspective, but we're not done with you yet.

(01:01:54):
Now we're going to move on to our next segment with you, which
is reviewing the game you chose from our lists, Animal Well.
It is our featured game. Animal Well is a 2024

(01:02:32):
Metroidvania puzzle platformer developed by Billy Basso of
Shared Memory and published by Big Mode.
The game synopsis from the Steamstorefront reads quote.
Explore a dense, interconnected labyrinth and unravel its many
secrets. Collect items to manipulate your
environment in surprising and meaningful ways.

(01:02:52):
Encounter beautiful and unsettling creatures as you
attempt to survive what lurks inthe dark.
There is more than what you see.So this is a 2D pixel art
metroidvania where you play, as I have here in my notes, a
little guy. I was going to ask you guys, do
you think this is like a BLOB? Is that what you would call it?

(01:03:15):
I mean, so whenever you encounter a game that has a
slime, that's kind of what the slimes look like.
Kind of. I want to think he's a Digimon
just from a biased point. Of view like a phase. 1.
Yeah, like a little baby Digimon.
That's fair. So I've been calling it like a
little guy slash a BLOB, but youdon't really know what you are.

(01:03:35):
But when you start animal well, you see four flames on screen
and you hear this bird like sounds as they each disappear.
You hear this and then you see aflash frame of a really
mysterious face, if you're paying attention, before the

(01:03:57):
first scene reveals. And there's this plant on screen
and you emerge from this plant and you are this BLOB in a very
large, dense and dark well that's full of creatures.
And immediately we see one of these creatures.
We see a squirrel who we can tryto chase but never catch and at
first you can't really do much movement wise.

(01:04:18):
But the premise is really as simple as you need to explore
this well and figure out its many secrets as you search for
those four flames that you saw when you started the game.
And the game has no spoken dialogue and hardly any written
text. I think we see text to interact
with objects and then in our inventory to see the names of

(01:04:39):
things. But largely this is just a
wordless game and we're exploring this very dark place,
and that's really all I can say to set up the story and setting,
I think. But Disco Cola, what are we
doing in this game? How?
How's the gameplay work? So as a freshly hatched baby
Digimon, you can move left and right, you can jump, and you can

(01:05:01):
climb up and down ladders. Those are your, if I'm not
mistaken, those are your only skills fresh out of the egg.
But after that you can collect different items that allow you
to traverse in different ways. One of which the most prominent
in my opinion is the bubble wand.
This will allow you to access bubbles that you can jump on and

(01:05:24):
reach higher and higher points. You get a disc that allows you
to distract enemies, and you canride on it to get across larger
chasms. And then there are several other
items that will remove other obstacles, such as spikes, such
as dark rooms that are hard to navigate or have very mysterious

(01:05:47):
enemy in them. And you can gain access to
moderate amounts of firepower. This is mostly like a scare
tactic against some of the otheranimals in the well in the form
of firecrackers. But yeah, it's a lot like a
Metroidvania, but you are a small and vulnerable little baby
Digimon, and so you really, really, really rely on your

(01:06:10):
tools above any increase in strength or physical ability.
And this game is known for sort of having layers to everything
you can do. Some people might say there are
three. I've I've seen people describe
it as 4 layers. There's finding those four

(01:06:31):
flames and getting the credits. That's what most people will do,
and then probably stop. But then beyond that, you can
find these hidden eggs and get all the achievements.
The third layer actually involves some even deeper
puzzles with Arg elements where members of the community have

(01:06:51):
actually solved things together,because everybody gets maybe a
piece to something larger. And then the fourth layer is the
deepest and it involves things like repeat play through and
speed run challenges and very deeply hidden clues, extremely
obtuse puzzles that Billy Basso,the creator, wasn't sure maybe

(01:07:15):
how long they would take to be solved.
They have already been solved bythe community, but it did
require some work to get there. And it's, I don't think it's
something one person could easily do by themselves since
history around this game. This is the first game published
by Big Mode, the publishing company started by Jason
Gastrow, AKA Video game Donkey and his wife Leah.

(01:07:39):
And it's the debut game from shared memory, which is
comprised of Dan Edelman on the business side and Billy Basso,
who we've already mentioned. Billy will probably come up a
couple times today. He did everything he did the
gameplay, the puzzles, the graphics, the music, the sound
effects, etcetera. He built a custom game engine

(01:08:01):
for animal. Well, and it's this custom
engine that actually led to the PC version being so efficiently
sized that it was only around like 30 megabytes in size for
the PC version, which is why I. Think you can fit that on like a
Game Boy Color cart? Right.
And then this game was nominatedfor lots of industry awards,

(01:08:22):
including Best Independent Game and Debut Indie Game at The Game
Awards, several Golden Joystick Awards.
I'm sure others were sort of recording this earlier in the
middle of award season. So it will probably get more
recognition in that area. Jeremy, can you tell us why you
picked Animal? Well, from our list of ideas of

(01:08:43):
featured games, I know there's like probably over 100 games in
there. What stuck out to you about this
game? I mean, I think it's the kind of
the mystery and the entry that you went to earlier, it just has
this aura of mystery that's I can kind of top to bottom in the
advertising and the visuals, music that just makes you

(01:09:07):
curious, like what? What is this?
So that that that drew me in. Were you sort of tracking this
game ahead of its release? Did you know about it or did it
sort of come out and then you found it?
I hadn't. I don't think I'd been tracking
it, but I I heard about it. I heard a lot of really great
reviews. So it had that kind of prestige,

(01:09:27):
I guess, going into it. So I was like, oh, this is yeah,
it's like when HBO releases somenew important show.
Like, oh, this is. Got a high level?
Yeah, the hype was there and then you were just like, I have
to know what happens. Cool.
Yeah. So Jeremy, after now playing it,
what are your overall thoughts on Animal Well?

(01:09:48):
Yeah, no, it's, I mean, first ofall, just hearing that it is a
soft developer that's insane. The the optimization, obviously
it's, you know, it's, it's like sort of pixelated, but it just
runs so wonderfully smoothly, which is really nice.
And just just kind of the atmosphere is, is really

(01:10:11):
something special. I don't know why this came up
from it, but it kind of reminds me of Breath of the Wild in a
weird way, just in that if you think you can do something, you
probably can. I think that makes the game
really compelling. Is is like a lot of
Metroidvanias, I think it's justyou get, you get the item and
then you shoot the thing with the particular item and then it

(01:10:33):
opens the door, you know? But in this game, it's like you
get a tool and you can just use it in many different ways.
I've played a fair share of Metroidvanias, but I can't
remember one that that does thatparticular thing where a tool is
is a tool that you can use in many different ways.
Yeah. I guess the closest thing
reminds me of the is this whole game called Night.

(01:10:55):
I don't know if you guys have heard of it or played it.
It's like KNYTT, but it's the first Metroidvania that I fell
in love with. And it's it's very similar.
The kind of atmospheric music, beautiful sort of minimalistic
art and this world that's just strange.
Like you don't really know what's going on and you kind of
want to it kind of pulls you in to learn more, you know, so, so

(01:11:18):
the gameplay is is really compelling.
It's totally wordless. So it's just visual sort of
storytelling. I think the first thing that
stuck out to me was just the audio visual is incredible.
It's incredibly immersive. The sound design, there's like
panning left and right. So if something is going on on
the right side of the screen, you'll hear it over here.
So it makes it very immersive. Great kind of alien, sort of

(01:11:43):
spooky sound design for these creatures that you don't really
know what they are exactly. I mean, they're animals, but
they're kind of Phantasmic Oracle.
Now that you mentioned the Digimon BLOB, I'm kind of
curious, like, are those questions answered at some point
about what you are and why you're in this?

(01:12:03):
Well, and there's all these weird animals and I don't know
if the narrative has lore that makes sense of that or if you
just, or if it just has an internal logic where you just
kind of understand what's going on.
Yeah, I think my take on it is that it's it's not explicitly
described. I think you're just always this
BLOB. And really it's more about the
feeling and it's about the vibe of where you are, and it's about

(01:12:26):
celebrating your intuition and ability to use what you call
tools. I think that's a great way to
describe it. How do you use the tools in your
toolbox in increasingly different ways?
Because the game keeps revealingnew ways to use items and
combine items too. Yeah, and that's, that's also

(01:12:47):
kind of the, the Breath of the Wild or, or here's the Kingdom
kind of thing is like there's a difference between just kind of
puzzle puzzles and this thing where it's like you're really
just interacting with this world, you know?
And I, I guess this will work ifI, if I do this, you know, and
it has, it has that sort of feeling to it.
Yeah. I I guess the highest praise I
can give for it is that it, it really feels like you're in a

(01:13:08):
place. It's not, it's not video gamey.
It's like an experience. It really feels like there's
this place called Animal Wow andyou're there, you know, and it
has its own set of rules and sounds and visuals.
And I feel like when I'm playingthe game like I am somewhere.
I also like the CRTV kind of thelines on the screen.

(01:13:30):
It just, it just feels like a real place.
If you were to assign this game a score out of 10, what would
you give it, Jeremy? Gosh, I mean, for a Metroidania
10 out of 10, I, I've like, I'vejust not been in a Metroidania
mood in particular. So I wasn't, I wasn't super
compelled to like just dive intoit.

(01:13:51):
But yeah, I think it's, it's a kind of a video game work of
art, I guess you could say, because it has that essential
quality of, of being an interactive medium.
And it just does that so well and it's so immersive.
It's not a book, a book pretending to be a video game or
a movie pretending to be. It's just a pure video game.
It's a pure experience it. Really could not exist as any

(01:14:13):
kind of other media. Yeah, exactly.
And it does that so well, so howcould you not?
Ten out of 10. That's just how I feel.
Awesome. Cool.
All right, well, 10 out of 10 for Jeremy Renick.
That's what we've etched down instone for.
Our record. Keeping future.
And then disco, what are your overall thoughts on Animal?
Well, I'm so curious because I think you know more about what I

(01:14:35):
feel about this game, but I I don't know what you think about
this game. I think I already know your
score and I think I already haveit written down, but yeah, OK.
So my overall thoughts on animal, well, I was following
the development of this for a little bit before I had played
it, so I really hyped it up quite a lot in my head.

(01:14:57):
And early spoilers, I know I didn't like it quiet as much as
Bopo did, and I think a little bit of that has to do with the
level of hype that I did have was maybe too high.
Oh, that can happen. That can happen, but that's not
to say that I don't like the game like Jeremy was talking
about. I love the visual identity of
the game. I've been looking forward to

(01:15:20):
this, like, bizarre foggy scanline barrage of cool colors.
I think the game looks like it'sdamp and electric at the same
time. And I love all these like,
bizarrely shaped animals, Jeremysaid.
Phantasmagoric. I think that's a perfect word
for it. Like the wolf that you have to
encounter just looks so strange and creepy and I hate his little

(01:15:45):
eyes but it looks so cool. And I think I was reading up on
this game. I've been researching this game
over the past several months, like ever since I first played
it in May 2024. I've just like looked up videos
and articles about it here and there.
I've, I've listened to interviews with Billy Basso and
I think some of those movements of the animals were procedurally

(01:16:05):
generated somehow, or just sort of automatically generated in
some ways to sort of give that uncanny feeling to this world
that these animals are like, yourecognize that that's a dog, but
it's also not a dog. Yeah, it's a bit odd.
The mice are strange, you know, it's Yeah.
So I that lived up to the hype for me.
Like, that's far and away my favorite part of the game.

(01:16:28):
With one exception, I did eventually come to love every
boss fight. There's even some lesser boss
fights that show up in like unexpected places.
And it's pretty fun to learn howto like deal with these
encounters while you're panicking because you don't
actually understand what's happening.
So like I kind of grew to like all pretty much all of the boss

(01:16:49):
fights eventually. I really like that you get the
bubble wand very near the beginning because in my opinion,
it opens up a majority of the map.
Like if you're struggling in OneDirection, you can try another.
But even if you're traveling in a direction with more advanced
obstacles that maybe you'll havean easier time with, if you

(01:17:10):
have, say, like the Lantern or the yo-yo, in many cases, you
can still kind of brute force your way to the other side of
the screen with the bubble wand because like, it really is a
very useful tool. I really like analyzing puzzle
screens to figure out which items need to be used where and
in which order. It makes me feel smart,

(01:17:31):
especially if I can pull it off on the first try.
Double, especially if it's one of the slinky puzzles, because
those can get a little convoluted.
I like that the goal is made very apparent at the beginning.
You get those four flames and then you very early on find the
four statues in the center of the map.
You get it. You understand, like what you're

(01:17:52):
supposed to do. And it's like marked on your
map. You just have to figure out how
to use your tools to get there. I like the variety and styles of
puzzles. But you, like, you also don't
have to expand your skill set invast ways in order to like
travel through the bass tunnels.Like you.
You're not getting better at thegame just by learning how to

(01:18:13):
travel through the bass tunnels or by deflecting water fountains
or riding fan currents. You just have to figure out how
to use your tools in different ways.
You're not getting like physically better at the game.
I did love finding new eggs and then doing egg cleanup, albeit
with a guide afterward is reallyfun.

(01:18:35):
And this might actually be my favorite part of the game is the
egg cleanup I'm I'm having a lotof.
Fun with the egg hunts. I'm having a lot of fun with the
egg hunts, and even though I getwhat I feel is pretty much the
best item pretty much right away, I still feel more powerful
at the end of the game than I doat the beginning.
Now on that point, I do want to move into things that don't work

(01:18:56):
quite as much for me. I praise the bubble wand, but I
do think it's a bit overpowered.This isn't a massive complaint
because I I don't like challengein most cases so I I'll take an
easier time if I can get it. And even though I said I feel
way more powerful at the end of the game with all my items than
I did at the beginning, I never felt one singular jump in

(01:19:21):
ability to be more significant than what I gained from the
bubble wand, if that makes sense.
Maybe for you there needs to be more hummingbirds to pop your
bubbles. I mean, like I said, I don't
like the challenge, but that would probably do it, yes.
Another thing I didn't like I I just hated the manticore

(01:19:42):
section. Like it was super satisfying
once I did finally finish it, but that has a lot more to do
with like I was super frustratedin that moment and then I was
just relieved to be done with itbecause I was, I was faced like
trying to use my bubble jump, but I was also in this insane

(01:20:04):
panic mode. And so I was just like missing
jump after jump after jump and then I'm falling into a.
Platform that I can't recover from and the Manticore is going
to get me before I can even do anything.
I struggled with that Section 2 and it took me too long to
realize you can use the Lantern to ward it off.
Yeah, and I learned about the Lantern.

(01:20:24):
And even still, like I struggledpretty big time, especially in
those sections where I had to panic bubble jump.
It's a. High intensity moment.
And I think we can say like the name of the section, but we're
not explaining what's going on because it is sort of like a big
moment. Yeah, it's hard to.
It's hard to spoil because how do you describe it, you know?
Yeah. And you can't anticipate that

(01:20:46):
it's coming really. So.
And all of that's not to mentionthe like section before it with
the shadow baboons or whatever they are.
I found that section on its own pretty difficult.
I actually kind of struggled with that more than the man
score. So yeah, I just, I just did not
really like that section pretty much at all.

(01:21:09):
And then when you look at the map, it's all pretty tightly
packed. However, I wish that like
adjacent sections were more connected.
Like these sections on the map that are further out from the
center seem like they're maybe only connected to an adjacent
section at one spot like if at all.
And in some cases these one spots are behind a series of

(01:21:31):
like one way rooms. Yeah.
So you have to, you have to go through a route that's very
specific to get back to. Yeah.
And additionally, just by looking at the map, I can't
always tell like which section is where.
There's like a lot of theme sections in Animal well, but
apart from a few like very significant set pieces that are
very easy to discern on the map,I can't really tell 1 apart from

(01:21:53):
the other. But that almost doesn't matter
as much because of my last complaint and that is the warp
room. I feel like the warp room could
use some work. Like in hindsight I know that
the map has a marker system and I could have maybe used this
marker system to help with this complaint.
But if you ask me, the teleporter heads should
automatically be color-coded andmarked on the map so that if I'm

(01:22:17):
on my way to somewhere, I can open my map and I can quickly
decide, is it faster for me to go on foot from where I am now?
Or should I teleport? And then I also, you know,
immediately know which teleporter had to use with?
That's the case because like, you know, going back to my
overall map complaint, these teleporter heads aren't

(01:22:37):
immediately like representative of a section on the map for me.
So I'm slowly just kind of like inching through each teleporter
head to see like, oh, is this the right one?
Nope, I'm super far away from where I want to go.
Is this the right one? Yeah, I drew lines on the map
and I would just open the map and see like, oh, it's the, it's
the middle right one I need to use.

(01:22:57):
So I was drawing these long lines, OK, on my map, but that's
a system that I figured out for me.
Yeah, that might not work for someone else.
That might be too much, you know.
Yeah. And then, you know,
additionally, just to like nitpick even more on the
teleporter system, like some of these, I, I can't even tell like
the canine head from the bear head.

(01:23:19):
They to me, they both look like bear heads.
The only reason I knew the canine head was a canine head is
because it brought me to the section close to the wolf boss
thing. So all that is to say, Animal
Well is a game that I hyped up maybe a little bit too much in
my head and I I do regret that. However, there are some post

(01:23:40):
game items that are really saving me some time on my egg
cleanup. And egg cleanup is proving to be
one of my favorite parts of the game, to the point where it did
boost my score that I came with today.
I like that many of the rooms are puzzles for your various
tools, but some of them are justso strange to me to the point
where like an ordinary player isnot really going to take the

(01:24:01):
time to explore it. And as much as I want to collect
the no death and speed run extras, I don't think I have the
skills to do it possibly ever. So I'm a little bit upset by
that. But no matter what, I never
stopped loving the look of Animal Well and I came with a
score. But I I want to give it with the

(01:24:21):
caveat that I expect to like thegame more once I finished egg
cleanup. So if we do decide to bend the
rules, maybe my final score changes.
But for me today, Animal Well isan 8 point O.
An 8 out of 10. OK, interesting.
I actually expected you to come here with a better score, but
it's still a positive score. You're still liking a lot in

(01:24:43):
this game. And yeah, I was.
I was in the same boat where I was anticipating this game
leading up to its May 2024 release.
It ended up hitting for me completely.
Animal, well, I think is a masterpiece in every conceivable
way. I love how it feels to play,
from jumping to using items to the movement speed, it all feels

(01:25:06):
perfectly tuned to me. I love this very inspired set of
creative gear that you find. And Jeremy, I love how you'd put
it. You'd put it as like tools.
They are tools. You find these tools and they
allow you to do things that I'venever seen in a game before.
And I always love looking for that in games.
What does this game do that I'venever done before and may never

(01:25:27):
do again? And you find ways to use them
that kind of blow your mind. And then you keep finding new
ways to use them over and over and over again.
And some games would give you one item that feels innovative.
When you take all the layers of this game, all the secrets, all
the chests that you eventually open, this game gives you 12

(01:25:49):
items, which is wild. And they all work in very unique
ways. I love how this game makes me
feel, and I love how it feels when I solve puzzles in Animal.
Well, I feel very smart. I feel like one of the smartest
versions of myself that has everexisted.
This is due to the fact that thepuzzles are so cleverly spaced

(01:26:10):
and communicated, and it all happened silently.
I can just sort of intuitively use this tool in a way that I
think the game is wanting me to,wanting me to use in a certain
way, but it's not holding my hand.
And so that feels really rewarding to figure out.
I think it feels singularly secretive all throughout this

(01:26:30):
game. The number of secrets and
puzzles is astounding. As you're walking through every
screen, you feel like eventuallythere must be something hiding
in plain sight that I'm just notseeing yet because of other
secrets you've found that are telling you, Wow, this place is
chock full of secrets. It feels like you're being

(01:26:51):
watched sometimes too, or that something can surprise you at
any moment. And sometimes that does happen,
and there's this subtle eerinessthat gets under my skin.
And so much of this has to do with how the game sounds.
And so this is where I want to shout out the fact that on the
music side, music is used very sparingly.

(01:27:12):
It's hard to remember any soundtrack from this game, but
when music is used it's to even better effect.
I think because we're so used tonot hearing music that then when
the music hits it is so surprising.
I always get chills from hearingcertain sound effects in this
game too, like the cuckoo clock that plays every so often.

(01:27:36):
It just kind of sort of gives mechills, like I get goosebumps.
The animal sounds are haunting. One example of this.
Do you? I was going to say, yeah, the
the little like black spectral thing in the rooms that usually
have a candle, like the sound effect of that creature.
Right, chasing you and the fact that it is chasing you and that

(01:27:56):
it's also making the sound is just like making it more
horrifying. And even animals that don't
chase you right away or don't, you know, reveal what they're
about yet just the way they sound can sometimes just be off
putting. Like crows for instance, you'll
find crows here and there. There's a room that has like 14
crows. But anytime you find crows, they

(01:28:18):
will do the caw that crows do. But it's not quite the caw that
you're used to. It sounds instead of like a,
it's more like, it's like someone in anguish screaming is
what it sounds like to me. It's like A and that scares me.
I'm just like, what? What is this crow going to do to

(01:28:38):
me? And they're not nice.
Not nice, those crows. And also just like, as a side
note, I just admire that so manyof the sounds are Billy's voice
that he just recorded himself saying something and then he
warped it and changed it and added effects until it becomes
something unnatural that we don't even recognize.
Yeah. So looking into this games just

(01:29:00):
sort of on a meta level, I love looking into this game and
seeing on a craft level how it was made.
That's awe inspiring. I also love the visuals for all
the reasons you both have said. And then it I think it has a
very interesting map. I I actually shout out the map
in this game for using color andshape and detail to dry out the
world. I can look at this map and I can

(01:29:23):
remember where things are much more easily than other games
that might just use simple rectangles to represent rooms.
So I was able to navigate much better with this map.
I don't think I have any dislikes for animal.
Well, it's hard for me to think of them.
If I had to pick one, it would just be that layer 2, finding
the eggs become so challenging for me to finish on my own.

(01:29:47):
And then like layers 3 and 4, forget about it.
I'm never figuring those out on my own or even I'm never even
like knowing how to start those on my own without looking up a
guide. So I wish more of the deeper
levels of this game were doable by myself.
But I guess that's kind of the points too.
But overall, for me, Animal Wellfeels like a once in a lifetime

(01:30:09):
game. It is this giant puzzle box of
intrigue and even insidiousness,and it respects your
intelligence and intuition. It's puzzles and layers just
keep going and going and going, and it's all awe inspiring to
me. It's my favorite game of 2024.
It's one of my top five indie games I've ever played.

(01:30:30):
It's possibly my favorite Metroidvania of all time,
although Hollow Knight might have something to say about
that. We'll see how time will tell on
this, but I give this a 10 out of 10.
Called it. Yeah, you called it.
You knew. I knew.
So I want to know how animal well, stands out in the

(01:30:51):
Metroidvania genre. I think we've touched on this,
you know, we talked about the the tools and how we don't do
the standard thing where we get a weapon and the weapon's pink.
So we know we have to shoot the pink door.
That's that's pretty immediatelyobvious as far as what stands
out here. But I guess starting with you,
Jeremy, what stands out about Animal?
Well, that maybe hasn't been mentioned.

(01:31:12):
And how might it inspire you as a game creator even?
In terms of the inspiration, it's just so incredibly
cohesive. The the sound design, the
visuals, the mechanics, everything just works towards
this goal of just piquing your curiosity, just wanting to oh,
what what is that over there? Is that thing friendly or not?

(01:31:36):
What is that? Can I interact with that thing?
You know, it just feels like a living world.
How does it stand out for Metroidvanias?
Yeah, I'm thinking of the other ones I've played recently.
I played Blasphemous. I played Hollow Night.
Yeah. It reminds me of that other game
night, I guess because it's a lot.
It's not really combat oriented.It's a lot more puzzle oriented.

(01:32:00):
I haven't played that many metrovanas.
Do you guys can you guys help meout?
Like how many metroidvanas are truly just mostly like puzzle
based that you guys have played?In my experience I've played
mostly combat ones. I feel like I'm trying to
remember ones where I'm not swinging a sword or shooting a
gun and it's coming up kind of short honestly.

(01:32:21):
Yeah, in general, yeah. That's that's what I'm used to
as far as Metroidvanas go. But along along the lines of the
puzzle solving aspects being so heavy here, you know, I've
solved puzzles in Metroidvanias,but there's so many interesting
puzzles in here that it kind of takes me back to when I was a

(01:32:42):
kid and I would sometimes play what I referred to as playground
games. I guess like maybe a more grown
up version is a water cooler game where it's a game that two
people could start playing that don't really know anything about
it and they could compare notes every day and just be like, oh,
I found the bubble wand and I found out I could get to this

(01:33:04):
place with it. And the other person could say,
oh, that's so awesome. I haven't done that, but I did
this with the yo-yo, did you do that?
And they're like, no, I didn't know that.
So I feel like it's kind of designed to be that way is to
maybe be in a way more social when you're in a in a circle of
people playing it and you can share notes, I guess.
Yeah, I think maybe I would haveliked that actually.

(01:33:25):
That might have helped me a lot if I would have felt more
comfortable talking to you aboutit as I was playing through it.
Yeah, that would have been, thatwould have been fun.
But if you keep going with the egg hunt, maybe that's something
we could do. OK.
Yeah, for me, the 1st and forefront thing is of course the
visual identity of it. I think that stands out a lot.

(01:33:47):
Even in the boss fights that we do have, no single one is like
the other, like one sort of a chase.
Section 1 is sort of you have tolure one of the bosses into a
certain position and it's just, you know.
Yeah, you almost can't call themfights, right?

(01:34:08):
I mean, it's it's it's encounters.
Yeah. And then you're only actually
even trying to defeat them, quote UN quote in order to gain
access to your actual goal. Like you don't have animosity
toward these animals, but you just, you have to do it.
Yeah. And sometimes what you do is is
horrific. You don't know that that's

(01:34:30):
necessarily what you're working towards.
Like, I just think of the ostrich, the ostriches in the
southeast corner. What happens there?
I I just sit there with my moutha gape for a couple seconds
because of what happens to the ostrich.
Like the ostrich was mean, but oh, man.
And then the music cue hits theme for like, you just killed

(01:34:52):
this big bird. You just drowned it.
And that's really dark for me. Yeah.
The more you look into this game, like I said, I've, I've
looked into it the past few months.
I'm just astounded by these innermost secrets.
And like I, I encourage you if, if either of you feel like
you're done playing it on your own without any guidance or

(01:35:14):
assistance or doing research, take some time, go to YouTube
and just look up animal well secrets and, and watch some
videos because it's fascinating what's done with things right in
front of your eyes that things that you've passed by probably
dozens of times. You're not sure if they mean
anything. They probably do.
And while I play it, I feel likeBilly Basso, the creator, I feel

(01:35:39):
like he's, I feel like he's somewhere nearby.
I feel like he's like behind this curtain trying to have a
conversation with me, but he's not talking to me.
He's showing me things. And I don't always know what
he's trying to tell me, but I'm always trying to listen.
And I'm always more alert and curious the more I play.
So that's what I would shout outis something that's different

(01:36:01):
about this Metroidvania. So according to some of Bopo's
research, Billy Basso's inspirations for animal well
include old school Mario platformers, The Witness, Tunic,
Fez, which is another game that we played earlier this season.
How do how do we see these inspirations taking foot in an

(01:36:24):
animal well? Yeah, the one that sticks out to
me the most is Tunic. Just this kind of alien world
that you just sort of go deeper and deeper into and has this has
its own kind of internal logic that you figure out over time.
That reminded me a lot of that. Yeah, it's it's great, great
platforming. Yeah.
You mentioned something about the just how it feels to play

(01:36:45):
and it feels nice. There's a nice weight is nice
inertia. And I haven't played The
Witness, I haven't played Fez, so I can't speak to those too
much. Yeah, that's OK.
Fez is really fresh on my mind because we just played it for
the podcast and I definitely seethose connections.
I see like things that feel likesecrets right there in front of

(01:37:06):
you. And you just, you might have
some of the bricks to build the building, you know, as a
metaphor, but you don't know what the building looks like.
And I'm still struggling with some of those things in Fez,
like I am with animal. Well, it's like, what does this
mean? I've seen this thing over and
over. What does it mean?
How do I do it? And that makes me more curious.
Yeah, for me it's the same like I'm, I'm thinking of like

(01:37:27):
freeing the Bobcats in, in animal Well and it's, there are
very similar like things that you have to do in Fez in order
to find some of these secrets. And so I'm thinking of that
very, very specifically. So I I see the Fez inspiration
on some of the puzzles. Yeah.
And yeah. Didn't Fez have like like like
big end game secrets too that required a community to sort of

(01:37:48):
figure out. It's not that communal puzzle
solving I. Think so I think there was an
Arg aspects to it or or at leastyou know, for the people who
aren't the most die hard committed, there's that communal
aspect of pulling together and just sharing the secrets.
And I did not find close to all the secrets in Fez, but I want
to go back maybe with a guide and and like figure it out.

(01:38:11):
And also like with the classic 2D Mario inspirations, I
recognize similarities with games like Super Mario World,
where I think Super Mario World,which is one of my favorite
games of all time, I think that game has layers.
I think that game has the layer of just play the levels

(01:38:32):
normally, get the goal posts that get you to Bowser, fight
Bowser, rescue Princess Peach, and get the credits.
But then beyond that, you can find the secret exits, you can
find the star road and the tubular levels and all those
things. And I think like each of those
is a layer that some people willnever even know is in the game.

(01:38:53):
I may be reaching, but there mayeven be a level of inspiration
there where it's like if you learn how to manipulate the Cape
correctly, you can basically flyinfinitely or whatever.
There's a little bit of that in like the bubble wand.
Yeah. And then some of the platforming
elements. Yeah, the bubble wand is this
game's Cape from Super Mario World.

(01:39:13):
Kind of. Yeah, I like that.
Next, let's talk about our favorite items and the clever
ways they're used, the tools that we pick up in this game.
Jeremy, what? What were you vibing with?
I think the Frisbee is fantasticas something that can like break
the stalactites or whatever and and also something you can surf

(01:39:34):
on. Like I discovered that by
accident. I don't think it tells you that
you can do that. You just sort of find out, Oh, I
can jump on this thing and surf it.
And then I realized, oh, I can surf this thing across screens
and oh, I can. There was one section was like a
long lake. And then you can I found a way
to to, you know, get up on this platform by going all the way

(01:39:56):
across the lake on on the simpleFrisbee or I guess it's called a
disc. But but yeah, I thought that was
that's great. The really crunchy sound effects
for breaking the stalactites that I loved.
Another thing I love about the game is just how weird the items
are. Like there's a slinky, it's like
a Frisbee. So so so odd.

(01:40:21):
Just a bunch of junk that kids threw down into the well after
they were done at the park. Yeah, that makes sense.
It's like the drawer. In the principal's office of all
the confiscated items. Where's my boomerang?
Yeah, Boomerang DLC. That's funny.
Yeah, and then and then eggs, like eggs are so central.
It's just such a random assortment of stuff, matches and

(01:40:42):
firecrackers. It's like, very strange.
Yeah, I actually, I want to throw it back to like what
Jeremy said, that I didn't learnmost of what the Frisbee could
do for a long time. For me it was a tool to distract
dogs for like the first half of my playthrough.
I didn't know you could surf on it.
So I was like brute forcing long, long screens with the

(01:41:06):
bubble wand to very frustrating avail.
And I didn't know about breakingstalagtites.
But I think apart from the the obvious bubble wand, eventually
I found a lot of love for the yo-yo because at first it felt
like a mostly 1 trick item, and then I accidentally broke some

(01:41:32):
spikes with it. And it totally changed for me
after that because this yo-yo issaving me a lot of time with
other items I was using that were just like less effective.
Yeah. And so just just the ability to
break some of the breakable spikes with the yo-yo really
changed that for me. I actually figured things out

(01:41:54):
with the disc in sort of an inverse fashion from you.
I didn't try using the disc on animals, I was using it to surf
around and and break things. I didn't think about the
relationship between the toys and the animals at all.
I was just thinking like, oh, these are the dogs are something
I have to avoid. There's nothing I can do.

(01:42:15):
Maybe just use my bubble wand togo over them.
That's all I could think of. So I was mostly using the desk
to just ride around rooms and things like that.
But then it was an accidental instance where, you know, I
think it was that I found out there's an animal that reacts to
your yo-yo, you know, and that'ssort of what unlocked it for me.

(01:42:37):
And then I wanted to try every item on every animal I
encountered. And so I was doing this trial
and error thing. And I also love rooms where you
have to use multiple items. There's an egg called the plant
egg. There's this slinky switch.
You also have to write on a diskthrough a couple of doors that

(01:42:58):
the slinky switch unlocks. And I was overly convoluting
this puzzle. I was throwing down the slinky
and then I was using my bubble wands to get up to the door
waiting for it and then I was hopping on the platform that
opens under the door and then throwing the frisbee.
It was really I was switching way too much and I found out I
don't have to use the bubble wand for for that.

(01:43:19):
I remember that one, but that one was still hard for me
because I I wasn't trying to usethe bubble wand but I am not
good at getting on the frisbee. It's still hard, Yeah.
You have to time the jump. Yeah.
So you kind of have to work for some of these exploits, I guess
to to use the items, which is fun.
Yeah. And also I just love the bubble
jumping. Like I'd I'd say learning that

(01:43:41):
is so key to just unlocking so much in this game.
Yeah. And The thing is it makes sense,
like it makes sense within the world that you could do that,
but you have to discover it. But I love the it's, it's all
logical, like everything that you can do, you just have to
think to do it right. Yep.
So Bobo just mentioned one of these, but are there memorable

(01:44:03):
animals or rooms that you have in particular?
I thought the cat was very terrifying and in a kind of a
psychedelic way. The weird ghost cat thing.
I don't know if that, I don't know if that shows up again.
But yeah, there's, I guess it's at the beginning where you have
to get like a like Frisbee and replace it.

(01:44:28):
But I didn't know that. I didn't know where to find the
the replacement Frisbee. So I was just trying to run
around the map with this cat chasing me.
Yeah. I think that's actually a dog.
Yeah, I think it's meant to be awolf.
It's a dog. Oh, it's a wolf.
Oh, that's a wolf. OK.
OK. Oh yeah, that's right.
Yes. OK, I saw that as a cat but.
Well, yeah, that goes back to like the phantasmagoric, you

(01:44:51):
know. I thought it was a cat the first
time I played, and then I thought it was a dog and now
it's actually a wolf. Do we know?
We don't. Yeah, I mean, it could be its
own thing too. For me, there are a couple of
slinky rooms, like slinky puzzles that that stand out.

(01:45:11):
It's just pretty much any of theslinky rooms that cause the
platforms to move. Those are pretty memorable
because you like you just have to master timing on those.
And then as far as animals, the ostrich is pretty memorable.
And then for me, the Bobcats, like I saw this Mama bobcat and

(01:45:32):
I just like that was really memorable because it's like one
of the few ghostly looking entities that we don't actually
interact with in any way. Yeah, she's more in the
background. Yeah, but it looks like she
she's going to get me. Like if I jump over her, she's

(01:45:52):
going to swipe at me. But that's not what happens.
She just wants her babies. Yeah.
That's why she's crying. She's like, yeah, yeah.
So that's a that's a memorable animal for me.
The kangaroo, which I still haven't finished with, but the I
remember the first time I met the kangaroo.
Oh, and the bird that like, putsits head in the holes to get

(01:46:15):
you. Oh yeah?
Well, that's the ostrich. Is that the same ostrich?
I think it is, yeah. OK, messed up.
Yeah. And even just entering that
screen, it's like a jump scare because it starts running
towards you. Yeah, it's fun.
Speaking of jump scares, I, I, Ilove them.
I don't know if this shows up later in the game as well, but
there's a bat, like a huge bat, and you you have to light this,

(01:46:38):
a little candle, and then you realize there's this huge
creature behind you and it starts chasing you around.
Yeah, that would be great. I didn't find that until I was
doing trophy cleanup. I totally missed it.
I think maybe I like didn't havea match or something the first
time I got to that room. Yeah, I think that.
Is more in one of those corners that you don't have to go to,
yeah. Whoa, yeah, that's did you see
that? I did see that and it scared me

(01:47:00):
too. I saw like the outline of
something and then I let that candle and then it comes alive
so. Yeah, yeah, this game is
awesome. This game is scary from time to
time Yeah, it is. But I but you know what?
I still wouldn't necessarily call it like a horror game.
It's like, you know, it's it's it's a Moody game.
It's. Like a weird dream, kind of.
It is. That's a good way to put it,

(01:47:21):
yeah. And that like things like the OR
the wolf chasing, you feel dreamlike.
They're so. Wispy.
I I was immediately curious about the Mallard, the duck that
you see close to the start of the game.
It's just sitting there quackingand like the mom cat, you can't
really do anything with it. And that is one of those secrets
that's just hiding in plain sight.

(01:47:42):
I won't say anymore, but there'ssomething with that.
Oh, so there is something with it.
See, I kind of came to the conclusion that it's animal.
Well, man, there's just some animals there.
There's just some. Animals like the worms crawling
around in the darkness in that one really dark place.
It's a beautiful area. I don't think those do anything,
you know? There are exceptions, but mostly
when you see an animal that really only pops up one place,

(01:48:05):
there's some secrets to do. With it, I can think of two
more. So now I'm curious about what
those secrets in plain sight are.
Another you might be thinking ofis the Groundhog.
Yep, that's one of. The ones.
That's one I had to look up a video about.
I'll, I'll say like some of these secrets are more novel.
They're more fun, little pun intended, Easter eggs or just

(01:48:28):
like fun little gags. They don't always like, give you
an item or mean a whole lot in the grand scheme of things, but
there's something there. It's very cool.
It's fun to makes the world feelkind of interactive too.
Yeah, you at least want to trigger every encounter once.
Yeah, and you'll find out about those things if you look up
videos about secrets too. And I'm, I'm, I'm definitely

(01:48:51):
curious. I wanted to mention one more
thing before I forget that I love about the audio visuals is
the, there's like a sense of physics to the, the gas and
stuff and the, and the fog. But like certain, you know, like
when the cat is chasing you and then you kind of walk past it,
it'll like, it'll like create a wisp of the fog that'll move in

(01:49:11):
a very natural way sort of around your character and stuff.
And yeah, I love that there's a sense of of kind of physics
that's not doesn't really do anything but it it just creates
this atmosphere. It's so cool.
I always loved seeing the smoke from the firecrackers when you.
When you yeah, yeah, firecrackerit.
Does that kind of wispy thing too, yeah.

(01:49:31):
Yeah, yeah, the the particles are are awesome in the game.
That adds a lot, I think to the visual element.
And then lastly, what questions do we still have about the
mysteries of the game? Like what are you thinking about
the most as far as what you don't know yet?
I mean, I'm, I'm kind of curiousif there is some sort of
explanation, like do you guys know the game Braid?

(01:49:53):
Yeah, no other. Yeah, I, I played it like a long
time ago. I never finished it, but yeah,
definitely. That's the big like indie, the
big indie game that I just like,don't actually know anything
about. It's just like, we came to this
podcast and it was like, we're going to play Braid someday and
I'm like, OK. And that's all I know about it.
And it just got, it just got theanniversary edition in 2024.

(01:50:16):
Like it's got the, you know, definitive edition.
But yeah. But anyways, to your point.
Yeah, I know Braid is. Braid is great and it is kind of
mysterious. It's another sort of puzzle
platformer, but there is kind ofan inherent mystery to the
mechanics that is resolved by the end there.

(01:50:37):
There's a purpose to all of it. And I, I wonder in animal, well,
if it's more, it's more just a kind of a dream like experience
or if there's some sort of significance to what's going on
to, to to the eggs and all the weird items and whatever your
creature is and why there's the animals in the well, yeah,
what's going on? Yeah, I, I also wonder, like, is

(01:50:57):
it sort of left up to the playerto imagine it too?
You know, sometimes that that's kind of a fun thought experiment
for people, and everybody can kind of come up with their own
theories. For me, it's, it's as simple as
what happens when I get all the eggs and then get what I assume
is like a true ending, quote UN quote.

(01:51:20):
For me, that's the mystery that I'm I'm waiting to solve.
And now that Bobo's mentioned a couple of these like secret and
plain sight animals, I want to go back to the like kombuchin
family or whatever and see what they're about.
And the Groundhog and. Did you both see like the Bunny
at the start of the game? Like near the start?

(01:51:42):
Maybe it's up in the corner of one of the first screens.
Yeah. A little like Cove, you can find
that Bunny, but there are more bunnies.
The bunnies are a huge part of like layer 3 and 4.
OK, yeah, I think there's like atrophy for finding the Bunny,
right? There's a trophy for finding

(01:52:02):
that Bunny. Or a Bunny.
I just accidentally got that oneso I have found one I guess.
Yeah, there you go. I'll leave it at that.
I won't. And I I have already spoiled
myself on like, what's hiding inthis game.
There could be more secrets thatmaybe people haven't found yet.
I just don't know. But one of the things that

(01:52:23):
tripped me up the first time I played, I played this game
twice. One of the things that tripped
me up at first was I found some sequences of five arrows and I
pulled out my flute trying to play those notes and nothing
happens. And it has to do with something
that was actually mentioned earlier, but I won't say what it
was. I'm just, I'm being so
mysterious. Yeah.

(01:52:43):
But that's an instance where I was just like, oh, I want to
know what that's about. And I didn't have the patience
to figure it out myself. Yeah, I'll be honest, that
discovery 100% guide driven, I did not.
I I might have found one of the sets of arrows casually, but the
rest of it I was just like no guide time for me.

(01:53:04):
Sure. Anything else to say about
animal well? Just shout out to Billy Basso,
it's an amazing achievement. How long did it take to make the
game, do you know? I think about seven years or
something like. That, yeah, I think I first saw
anything about it 2 1/2 years ago.
I think it's the first time I saw something about it.

(01:53:26):
And that's around, that's closerto the time when Big Mode got
involved as the publisher. So Billy worked on it sort of
more alone for years before thatpoint even, which is incredible.
Incredible. Like it was a passion project on
the side for a long time. One thing that I want to mention
before the end of the episode and had nothing else to do with
anything else that we've talked about, there's an item similar

(01:53:49):
to the Lantern that you can get and it allows you to see even
more. Yes, and I found something that
shows up in another indie game of ours that we played in a
previous episode called Everybody's Gone to the Rapture.
In Everybody's Gone to the Rapture, there is an achievement
for quote, finding all of the chads and I found a Chad, an

(01:54:12):
animal Well, so I'm going to hand you my laptop so you can
actually see what that looks like.
I found one of those guys an animal.
Well, and. I no way.
I felt really happy to have found that.
That's that's it. Actually, now that you say that,
Speaking of Fez and Tunic I. Believe.
Oh, I know what you're talking about with Fez.

(01:54:34):
Yeah, so there are Easter eggs with those games in this game
too. Yeah.
To be fair, I don't think this like Chad thing is specific to
everybody's going to act. I think this is a popular.
Graffiti. It's a thing.
Yeah, but. Sure.
Yeah, that's a whole other layeris using that item in that way
and finding new things. But Jeremy, thank you so much

(01:54:57):
for joining us and taking the time to help us review Animal.
Well, can you tell us again where to find your game Grand
Soul Story? You can find Grand Soul Story on
Steam. If you search Grand Soul Story
in Google, it should be the first thing that pops up.
Goes on sale relatively regularly, and you can also find

(01:55:17):
the original soundtrack. Think anywhere that you can
stream music. If you search Grand Soul Story
it should pop up. Awesome.
Well, yeah, thank you again and good luck with everything in the
future. We look forward to seeing more
from you when it's time. And that will do for our review
of Animal. Well, you can play it on PC,

(01:55:38):
Switch, PS5, and Xbox Series X&S.
Jeremy rated it A10. Disco Cola rated it an 8.
I rated it a 10. That's the end of this episode
of Underplayed. You can find more of our
episodes at kzum.org/underplayedand on common podcast platforms
like Spotify or Apple Podcasts. Our music was composed by Jack
Rodenberg. Our art comes from Oni Mochi.

(01:56:01):
Underplayed is on Blue Sky Twitter, Instagram, and threads
at Underplayed Pod. You can find me in those places
at Bopo. That's Bo under score PO.
And I am at Disco Cola in most of those places to varying
degrees. And you can check out
Underplayed at twitch.tv/underplayed Podcast

(01:56:21):
where we have probably finished playing Octodad at the time this
episode has come down. But we will always play our
Co-op featured games and releaseearly premieres of all of our
new episodes on the Monday nightbefore their release.
Next episode we will have two more secret games to review, and

(01:56:43):
our featured game will be Octodad Dadliest Catch, an
adventure game that we're going to play cooperatively and it's
developed by young horses. Until then, everyone keep on
playing.

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075 - COGEN: Sword of Rewind, The Room Three, & ANIMAL WELL (Guest: Jeremy Reineck of Moon Soul Games)

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The Breakfast Club

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}075 - COGEN: Sword of Rewind, The Room Three, & ANIMAL WELL (Guest: Jeremy Reineck of Moon Soul Games)