239. Mormon “Profits” History, Secrets & Corruption with LDS Abuse Justin Riggs

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm awake, are you. I wonder how many miles I've fallen.
It seems I'll get to the center of the earth. Curious,
isn't it? And really nothing's quite impossible. Let's go now
to our new episode of The Unfiltered Rise with Me
Heidi Love.

Speaker 2 (00:20):
Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of The Unfiltered
Rise with Me Heidi Love. And today I have with
me basically the most feared man. I believe that goes
on camera for the ex Mormons or Mormons here like
he may not think so he's a legend. I don't
care what he says. Justin from LDS Abuse. How are

(00:42):
you doing today?

Speaker 3 (00:43):
I'm good. It's a Friday, and so I'm ready for
a fun session. I've been watching you on Twitter, but
I can't keep up. So I'm excited to learn some
things and share some things and just have a good
Friday evening conversation.

Speaker 2 (00:56):
So yes, yeah, And it seems like you know, you
get into your lane. I'm in this lane and you're
in that, and even checking yours, like you're right, it's
so much that you're like, my head is spinning. I
just have to put this out there and then get
off of here.

Speaker 3 (01:09):
Yeah, yeah, that's true. If I can't mean I can't honestly,
I can't keep up anymore. So at some point I
need to take a break from Twitter and I need
to like just go back and like fill in all
my chronologies because there's gaping holes at this point that
we have a lot of information for so.

Speaker 2 (01:24):
But anyway, well, because when you think you figured it out,
you get a new book. I was just so justin
you get a new book.

Speaker 3 (01:36):
It's such a such an amazing find.

Speaker 2 (01:38):
Anytime you know, I find something, I'll hit you up
and say, hey, you want any in on any of
this and just send it. It even has this is
like the centennial birthday when it has like their dinner thing.
It was expensive, but I almost didn't get it because
I thought, this is absolutely ridiculous. You're going to spend

(01:59):
almost one hundred dollars on a book. And when I
sent the cover to my husband, he's like, because I asked,
we have a rule, you know if it's over so much?
Oh right, he goes, I think maybe that one would
be worth it, And I was.

Speaker 3 (02:12):
Like, yeah. When I got the Sigma Kai the University
of USAW Sigma Kai History that was that was like
two hundred. Because there's only a thousand copies of it.
I didn't have to ask permission. I just went ahead
and did it. But yeah, like, I look at that thing.
It's like a I don't even know, it's like a
like a treasure, you know. Like I pull it out
and I just like turn the pages as gently as

(02:33):
I can, and I go to that picture of Russell
and Nelson standing in the background smiling while Beverly Felt
is getting kissed by every Sigma Kai guy and.

Speaker 2 (02:41):
Oh my gosh.

Speaker 3 (02:42):
Yeah, so it's my friend, it's great.

Speaker 2 (02:45):
You should you should go through. I think my plan
for this one is because it is quite small. I
know why it was a lot. There is an index
in the back of every grand Master and all of
the people. Yeah, and so I'm going to go through
this and and then afterward, I'll take a bunch of
screenshots and just send them to you. I'll just take

(03:07):
a picture of the book. And there was another one
that I found, and it seems that we're both and
it makes sense going down the same trail because you
start in one place, but then you you want to
know why, and then you want to know why, and
then you want, and then eventually you're like, how far
back are we going here? Man?

Speaker 3 (03:28):
I don't know that there's a bottom to it.

Speaker 2 (03:30):
Yeah, yeah, it's the worst. And so I was like,
well today let's talk about dead people. We might not
get in as much trouble then, right, right, we might
make it through this recording. And you know, also about
the why, like it's so important, like what happened to Utah?
What happened?

Speaker 3 (03:51):
Yeah, no, I think it's so huge. And then I
mean in the abuse space too, it's just everybody I
talked to like they just like, unless you have been
affected by it, you just have no idea that it's
going on. And so when you bring up the things
like your average Mormon just can't even begin to comprehend
how a church that they love would cover up abuse.

(04:13):
And so you have to go back into this history
and say, look, I know what you've been taught because
I went to primary, I went to seminary, I went
to BYU, I was taught all the same whitewashed history
that you were. But like the thing that I've done
that you haven't is I've questioned, well, what else happened?
And like when you ask, that's like the most dangerous
question in Mormon ever asked because a minute that you

(04:35):
start looking into like what else happened, It's a completely
different story. And we were talking about it before the show.
I mean for me, it was really like apocalyptic to
my worldview, right like, and not in terms of like
the Gospel or anything like that our Christianity, but like
like to realize just how whitewashed Church history is and

(04:56):
like how boring it is compared to the real history.
I don't know, I mean, I sti't talk about the
real history.

Speaker 2 (05:00):
Like, yeah, it's not awesome.

Speaker 3 (05:02):
It's not like it's not like the Israelites didn't have problems,
like when you read the Old Testament, right like, but
at least you get to read about the actual things
that happened, Like Mormon history is all occulted at this point.
So anyway, Yes, Like the why is is so important
because I don't think people can process the situation around
abuse in the Church until they understand how it's possible

(05:22):
that people became the way that they did, you.

Speaker 2 (05:25):
Know, and what and what happened there? Right Like, we
have this weird faction and people don't like to acknowledge
that there is a true, real faction of this LDS
Church of Satan. That's what they've been nicknamed. Okay, I
didn't do it, but you know Parewan's history, the history

(05:45):
of Southern Utah in general, like that split off as well.
It's very strange. It doesn't align, you know, and not
to say that the whole church doesn't align, but we
do have Brigham Young with his son dressed up as
a girl and all these weird things, like it doesn't
jive with what we've been taught, you know.

Speaker 3 (06:04):
Yeah, well, and the irony is and I don't know
if we agree on this, we probably don't. But like
I really trust the members of the church to be
able to handle the truth, and like I think one
of the saddest things about all of this is that
at some point the leaders of the church decided that
the members couldn't be trusted with the truth and they
felt like they had to protect them from I mean,
I published yesterday, it's some really great work. Five then

(06:25):
flinntalk from Tree to Liberty about the revelation to John
Taylor on polygamy, and to see like the leaders of
the church just I mean literally persecute John Taylor's son
and you know, throw them out of the Quorum of
the Twelve and then excommunicate him and then like call
the people who said that revelation existed, you know, like

(06:46):
crazy basically and rebellious. Like at what point did the
leaders of the church decide that the members can't handle
the truth and that they had to be protected. It's
really tragic to me because I really I've known a
lot of Mormons, and like they're strong people, right, and
I think they can handle the truth and make decisions
about what to do with their lives without being lied.

Speaker 2 (07:07):
To, right, It's only fair. I mean, you know, I
always say, if you want to be a part of
the Mormon Church and you know all the information, that's
fine with me. I'm not trying to blackpail people. And
in fact, I am very careful here in Utah, not
because my safety, all the safety we were just speaking

(07:28):
about this, I mean, they know where I am, who
I am. I'm a licensed individual for my job, like whatever,
I like my life. I would never do anything weird.
And you know, I'm a nurse, so I know how
to configure all kinds of things. So yeah, no accidents here.
But also right, we have to put that stuff out

(07:49):
there because we are vulnerable. You and I have put
ourselves in a place where to help others, we have
sacrificed a little bit of our safety, honestly, and that's
worth it to me. I don't know. I just I
feel like if the people have the choices, then it

(08:10):
is a true choice to be made. Otherwise it isn't
you know, You've taken them all the way.

Speaker 3 (08:16):
Yeah. Well, and I'll just say this and then we
can get into it. But like, I'm far more afraid
of the ignorant true believers than I am the leadership
of the church. I mean, you have to remember, the
church has hundreds of billions of dollars in time on
its side. I'll be dead in thirty, thirty five, forty
years and nobody will remember anything I did or who
I was. So all the church has to do to

(08:36):
get rid of me is wait patiently. It's those it's
these ignorant true believers that you know, get really upset
when we publish the truth that I worry a little
bit more about. But so far, I mean, it has
it's it hasn't been terrible. There's been one or two
situations that were a little bit shaky, but nothing to.

Speaker 2 (08:53):
Other than that. Well that's good, and I'm just plugging
away as well. And I think fear. You know, I
believe in God, and I believe God led me here,
so God's got me and I'll just keep doing what
I'm doing. But you know, we do have to tear
this to pieces. Like the things I found, I mean
some of the names I found. I was telling you,

(09:13):
I think I'm going to end up doing a whole
history on this one. But the names in the back,
it has every grand master, every like the secretary. I mean,
it's all of it. It's just names on names on
names on names on.

Speaker 3 (09:26):
Yeah, I'm fascinated, like when it says the first one
hundred years of Freebasement, because I know that there was
a big split from Nauvoo when they came to Utah.
Did you know, have you had a chance to get
into it? When does that chronology start?

Speaker 2 (09:38):
Yes? And so I can tell you, and I can
even tell you the very first one, and I actually
had that on my list to do. So the first
one that they have listed like grand master and masters
and wardens and all the things is January seventeenth, eighteen
seventy two. And this man's name was Obed F. Strickland,
grand Master first one and so and it's it's very

(10:03):
interesting some of the names you'll see as you go
down the line. First of all, multiple you know, heritage people,
very strange and interesting. At the same time. I also
found a name that I'm definitely going to be searching out,
which was Lewis Kohane. Smelled just like Roy Khane eighteen

(10:25):
seventy three.

Speaker 3 (10:27):
It's not interesting.

Speaker 2 (10:28):
That one was fun for me. Chaz Bennett, of course,
the Bennett have been in it forever. Arthur M. Grant,
which people don't know, but you did mention the Tree
of Liberty Society. He does know some things about that
because he speaks on a lot of interesting things that
don't exactly make sense where they're going just to dinners

(10:50):
for you know, certain people they're tearing down statues for.
And I'm going to be talking to him, and I
just think it's so funny that when we look at
this stuff, it just kind of, like you said, people
get forgotten. One of the other names, of course, as
you know, Bamburger, big one, oh God, be huge. You know.

(11:14):
The Merriment's also a fun one and William Montague fairy.
Now that just is really interesting, knowing that the fairies
that are involved, you know, with the whole JFK business
and different things. I'm definitely going to be checking that out.
But one thing I did find that was weird. I mean,

(11:36):
of course, you can never find them all, because when
you think you know anything about masonry or secret societies,
just forget it, you don't, you know, I found a
weird one. And I was just flipping through trying to
make sure we had like a little you know, something
that we can talk about in general. And I thought, man,
this is weird. What is this Order of Seven? And

(12:00):
it's a secret society and I didn't know anything about it.
I thought, hmm. And when you put it in it
tries to obfuscate to some painters things like yeah and
not in Utah, somewhere else, okay. And I just thought,
this is very strange. What is this. They're obfuscating it

(12:20):
awfully hard, which is my first clue to go, probably
should look at that right right, Yes, And so it
says the Order of Seven was you know, in the
nineteen twenties and nineteen thirties, it started to decline, but
it was actually a secret society that funded the political
movement in Utah, the very firsts of the political movements

(12:45):
in Utah. And it says the name of its original
seven members are not specified. The group gained its name
because of the initial seven members, and they will recruit
seven more, who then would recruit seven more and so
on and so forth. If anything was ever said, it
was put that it was basically the closest thing to

(13:08):
a political machine in Utah history. And it is non LDS.

Speaker 3 (13:14):
Interesting. Yeah, yeah, I think that. I think that people
because again, if you grew up in the church, how
much time do we spend Heidi in the church talking
about the non members in early Utah history. None, I
didn't zero, right, And like I think that people just
don't realize how much influence, like from the very get go,
but especially after they built the railroad straight through London, right,

(13:38):
but even before that, I mean, like the whole railroad
project was you know, the Stanfords were deeply involved in
that and that kind of a so so I mean
like there was influence and what was his name, Isaac Trumbo, right,
he even had a code name inside They used to
use those code names, and Isaac Trumbo had had a
code name with George Q. Cannon and these guys as
they were doing their thing, And so yeah, I think

(14:00):
we don't realize. I mean, the story you get told
growing up in the church is that they went to
Utah to build Zion. But it's really hard to build
Zion when you've got Babylon up in your crass from
the moment you step foot in Utah and then you
open the doors wide by building a railroad straight through
your backyard. So I just I think people have sort

(14:21):
of this Pollyanni ish that, right, Pollyanna ish there we
go view on Utah history, and they think that these
Mormons were out there all by themselves trying to create
the United Order blah blah blah, which they were in
some ways. But on the other side of that, I mean,
especially political power shifted very very early on to you

(14:43):
know what the church wouldn't called gentiles, right, and then
you see the church leaders having to sort of navigate
this like do we want to fight against these guys
or do we want to join them? And I think
history bears out very clearly that the group that wanted
to join with the Gentiles is the group that won

(15:03):
in Utah history.

Speaker 2 (15:05):
Right one hundred percent. In fact, that was one of
the pages I had Mark to bring up was about
this you know, seven or whatever. And this book is
called Funny Enough Mormons and Gentiles, and so this is
a really old book and they're talking about how God
bey of course God be right. He's in eighteen ninety

(15:27):
nine and he's trying to win in this election. But
they're bringing up exactly what you're talking about, the Salt
Lake Railroad Company. They're talking about Los Angeles and being
involved in it, Western Pacific, San Francisco, Ogden Railway, Bamberger
to your point from the last chat we did, and

(15:48):
all of these things including the mine expansions right like
yes with Kennicott and different things. And I just think
it's so so important. And you know, we actually have
four of the seven names of the people on that
seven and they called them, yes, they called them the sevens. Okay,

(16:11):
that's great. And they refer to him often. And so
these are four. Is Charles Rendell maybe he's the fifth
governor of Utah, George Henry Dern and he also succeeded
maybe as governor Arthur V. Watkins elected to Senate in
nineteen forty six, and Jay Brackenlee, who is a treasure

(16:33):
trove indeed, sure, sure, yeah, these people are so very
intecol for this whole thing. And I know they say
the Council of fifty is gone my I I mean
maybe they renamed.

Speaker 3 (16:48):
It right right right, well, and that goes I mean,
you know one of the things that we I know,
we haven't talked about it, but like on Twitter we've
sort of gone back and forth, is this whole idea
of British scientism, right, which is is pretty new to me,
and so like I don't want to pretend that I
know a ton about it, but I had a good
source on Twitter who I'm not I won't reveal because

(17:09):
I don't know if they want to be revealed. But
they sent me this this pedigree chart that was created
by oh man, I can't remember right now, I don't
I like normally I have a presentation thought it.

Speaker 2 (17:19):
It was Bennett.

Speaker 4 (17:21):
It was the line, yeah, and so they call it
the one Royal line and right in the middle of
it it has Abraham three five or whatever it is,
like he saw that they were good and these will
be my rulers, and that.

Speaker 3 (17:35):
Pedigree chart starts all the way up and it's important
for people to understand that this was created by like
the church's head genealogist and then reproduced with his permission.
But it starts with Jesus, right, and then it goes
through David and Solomon. And what you can see is
that early church leaders very clearly believed that their family

(17:55):
history went straight through the dividic line and through British
Royalty right up to Jesus, which is that's a whole
interesting conversation in and of itself because this idea that
Mary fled from Jerusalem after the death of Jesus and
took her family to France and then immigrated into Britain,
and that the royal family is the bloodline of Jesus.
I mean, that's a whole I mean, books and books

(18:16):
and books have been written about that. To know that
Mormonism sort of stems through that same milieu, right is
I didn't know that until like two weeks ago. But
at the bottom of that chart it has the names
don't and I don't remember so I will say, but
like it's it's very prominent early church leaders and they
clearly believe that they have the divine right to rule

(18:38):
through their bloodline. Right, So when you put that in
context and you kind of wrap your mind around that,
a lot of things make a little bit more sense
in terms of how they behaved, right. I mean, they
really do consider themselves a royal family in the same
way that the British monarchy considers themselves a royal family.

Speaker 2 (18:55):
Yeah. And funny enough, there's some substantiation to it because
I've been on this trail for about a yearish and
only because of my family line, my family line currently
to this day, like King Charles the First is my
tenth great grandpa, not ten times once removed. I am
through the house of Stuart and Talbot. And you know,

(19:19):
Henry Stuart Talbot was one of my great great grandpa's,
I believe, my fourth And it's a very strange it's
a very strange story. He decided to just bounce out
of England, go create his own town in South Africa
and then weirdly enough, come here and be a poor Mormon,
which doesn't make any sense. Yeah, yeah, and I mean

(19:44):
unless you're promised heaven.

Speaker 3 (19:46):
Right, well, yeah, I mean another that. I mean, so
the founding this is something like that's really just conjecture.
One of the things I love about coming on your
show is that I can take off my research or
hat a little bit and I can put on my
conspiracy theorist, which is fun every once in a while, right,
And so, like, one of the things that's just so
curious about early Mormonism is like the familial lines of

(20:06):
people that could have had it very easy in life,
who chose to go be a part of this frontier
religion and really struggle, but in the end there was
a huge payoff, right, And so like, I mean, one
of the things that we've been really surprised is like
you can trace back Mormon heritage to both the Huntington's
and the Russells, Right, who are the founders of Stolen Bones?

(20:28):
And like why why did the Huntingtons leave this life
of leisure to go to Nauvoo, Illinois, in malaria filled
swamps to try to create this society? Right? Well, I
mean like Zia Huntington young Smith, However many people she
got stilly whatever, like.

Speaker 2 (20:47):
That is my family?

Speaker 3 (20:48):
That is that your family?

Speaker 4 (20:50):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (20:50):
Yes, I mean I mean, like, like what a fascinating story,
like she gave she was she's given more priestood blessings
than most priesthood holders have, right and like and so
but she was a spiritualist, her brother was a spiritualist,
and so you automatically get start tiding into the occult,
you know. And but this whole thing of like, what
was it that kept the church going and kept the

(21:11):
church like it was a lot of like like blue blood.
Well that's weird to say about like blue blood blood
infiltrating into the church, right and keeping things running under
the covers, right. So I mean, it's it's so very strange,
and I don't I truly don't know the answer here,
but it seems very like. One thing we know for

(21:32):
certain that you know, people don't like to hear, is
that Brigham Young clearly like his primary goal of leaving
Navo really didn't have anything to do with building sie
like he had just been indicted, so he was in
danger of having a Joseph Smith experience, right, and beyond that,
like we have the quote from him where he says,

(21:53):
we didn't step a day beyond the Missouri River before
we started looking for a way to build a railroad
from coast to coast, right, So it seems really clear
to me that like his primary goal was to get
away from being indicted and to find a way to
enrich himself and then like unfortunately, like it seems like
the way that he enriched himself was to enslave the

(22:14):
people that he was supposed to be leading, right, not
like not like slavery, slavery like we think about it
like a soft move slavery and debting.

Speaker 2 (22:24):
Right, he did use them for the railroad basically, or slavery. Yeah,
he didn't pay them.

Speaker 3 (22:31):
Yeah, a lot of people didn't get paid in that
in that endeavor and so and then to watch them
go through the sugar company, right, and try to use
their positions to say, look, you may be like like
what's the quote, Uh, you may be a Mormon if
you don't contribute to the sugar company, but you're no
latter day saying something along those lines, I might have
that flipped. But times there. Yeah, but to have like

(22:53):
to use their positions of power inside of the church,
inside of the ecclesiastical structure to get themselves out of
debt and then to enrish themselves, it's really eye opening
when you look at the actual history. It's very very
interesting to see that from a very very early point
in Utah history, it was really about consolidating power and

(23:14):
wealth into a small group of families. Right, it's not
a huge group of families. And it sounds like probably
your family may have benefited from that. I don't know,
but yeah, I mean, yeah.

Speaker 2 (23:27):
It's a weird situation because you know, it became so incestuous,
you know, and you look at the last names like Kingston, right,
this is one of my favorite ones to show Kingston
King's son. You hear it, you know, And then you
see these genealogical studies which they could do on everyone

(23:47):
but Brigham they don't, but they did on Joseph. And
then you get back to this Nihle of the Nine
and I don't know if you've heard of this, but
this is so critical, you know, with their king line,
and they have, you know, this proof of his DNA
and this is all from like this is a church
guy that's doing this, Okay, It's like you go something

(24:09):
in his last name and and he's done this by
going to all the descendants at their family reunions and
being like, yo, can I have your DNA.

Speaker 3 (24:18):
I've seen like fair LDS conferences or something like that, yes, yeah, yeah,
I'm talking about yep, yep.

Speaker 2 (24:23):
And he has done this and they could do it
with all of them, but they choose not to for
Brigham even though he has. They actually said that Brigham's
line was not influential. This is the quote not influential
on the spread of his like DNA as much as Joseph's.
And I'm like through Hiram and I just was like,

(24:47):
how he only had so many kids and supposedly Brigham
had like fifty five kids.

Speaker 3 (24:55):
Sure, and why offer the conclusion without offering the evidence? Right,
that's always right, Like whenever anybody tries to like convince
me of something without being willing to provide me with
the evidence, Like, that's like red flag number one for me.
And that's what gets me. So like if anybody's watching, like,
don't tell me something's true without giving me the evidence,
otherwise I'll start researching it.

Speaker 2 (25:14):
So right, right, it's weird. It's a weird. It's like
a strange thing to happen. And then on top of it,
we see, you know, little things break apart, Like in
my family line, I've had two different DNA tests. We
know the rothschilds are supposed to be what oshka Nazi?
Right basically, sure, well, I don't have any of that,

(25:36):
and I am a direct descendant.

Speaker 3 (25:38):
Yeah, that's truly.

Speaker 2 (25:41):
That's very strange. It's also like a conspiracy inside of
a conspiracy. I do have German though, yeah, and you
know it gets sticky. I'm Welsh and German and you
know some other Scottish and little things. But sure and
mcmac which is strange.

Speaker 3 (26:00):
We've got to stop here, We've got to stop here
and talk about the Ross Childs a little bit, because
that's another thing that popped out of the ether right
around the same time that the British Zionism stuff popped out,
right because another uh, this is public but I don't
remember the using. I wish I did, because I'd love
to give them a shout out. But somebody showed up
on my feed and said, hey, like, here's the Journal
of Discourses. Did you know that Brigham Young and Orson

(26:22):
Pratt were talking about the roths Childs. And I was like, what,
like no, like you got to give me, like I
got to go look this up in the source because
that's just way too good to be true. But sure enough,
like you go back to the Journal of Discourses and
Brigham Young and Orson Pratt like they knew exactly who
the ross Childs were and exactly what they were up to,
and then they placed them in Second Coming Hit like

(26:45):
a future history, saying that it was when the ross
child would remove their money from the rest of the
world and place it in Jerusalem that everything would sort
of kick off. And you're like, holy cow, like yes,
Like if you want to talk about like people prophesying
like that, that's like the most interesting prophecy like that
I can think of that's come out of Mormonism in
the last two hundred whatever years. And yet again in

(27:07):
the church, did you ever learn about Brigham Young talking
about the Rothschilds in seminary?

Speaker 2 (27:11):
No?

Speaker 3 (27:12):
No, But like so like I just don't I don't
understand why we don't talk about this too, because that
is fascinating, Like I didn't know that the Church was
involved with financiers on the West Coast and the East
coast as they did the railroad and the sugar stuff.
We know that they sold out to the Havermiers to
be a part of the sugar Trust. We know that
they are in with like again, the Stanfords, and then

(27:32):
with Union Pacific they were in with the Harriman's right,
which rolls you into the bushes, which gets you involved
in World War history and so on and so forth.
But like, why don't we talk about these things that
are like so fascinating historically that also tie into the
prophetic history, right? And I think that I think, unfortunately

(27:53):
a lot of that is because, I mean, Brigham is problematic.
I don't I mean, like, I don't think there's anybody
in the church anymore who doesn't understand. I mean, when
the church came out and repudiated several of his teachings
a couple of years ago, there was a really there,
I saw a shift in the culture, right, And I
don't think there's anybody who doesn't understand that bring him
down is highly problematic at this point, right, definite, definite,

(28:15):
And so like we just don't spend a lot of
time like and then. And I think they also don't
want to talk about the reformation or the reformation of
the church, Like most Mormons have no idea that the
church was reformed after Joseph died, but it was Jedediah Grants, right,
and bring him young and Hebrew. C. Kimball felt the
need to reform the church, and so everybody got rebaptized.

(28:38):
It was fire and brimstone. It was authoritarian. Like that's
where we really get the follow of the prophet, you
know sort of stuff from. But like nobody wants to talk.
Everybody wants to talk about the restoration, but what about
the reformation? Because if something's restored but then reformed, what
do you really have anymore?

Speaker 2 (28:56):
Right? Right? And they, I mean they clearly took it
seriously enough to rebaptize everybody and all the things, So
I mean it clearly meant something to them, you know.
And I was looking for that quote as well because
I saw I saw that too, But and there is
the specific Journal of discourses, but I'll just put it
in the show notes because I can't because I have

(29:18):
ten thousand screenshots. Boy, But yeah, it's it is important,
and so are you know the backgrounds of people so
are It isn't just Brickham, Like we have some major
issues here and the only people that have ever really
broke it down and spoke about it until now, like

(29:38):
with you know all this, you know, money funding from
them and everything else is who Springmyer. But he's thrown
out because you know, he robbed a bank or something,
which I don't don't buy it, I don't know.

Speaker 3 (29:52):
I mean, yeah, well it's I mean it's interesting. I
mean you've got I mean, as you know, like you're
a book buyer, right, and so there were people writing
about this, but like those books disappeared and then you've
got I can't remember. This is terrible because he's like
probably like the biggest way is Michael Quinn. That's it, right,
And he did a great job in terms of like
exposing a lot of this as well. But then of

(30:13):
course what did they do to him? They just tossed
him from the church. It seems like, you know, everybody
who serves as church historian eventually ends up getting tossed
from the church because they learn they want to talk
about it. But this corporation, which I'm sure will get into,
you know, much deeper, Like they've got to protect the brand, right,
and they've got to protect the assets, just like every
other corporation on the face of the earth. Every corporation

(30:36):
on the face of the earth has two main objectives.
Create a brand that creates a profitable business, and then
protect those assets, right, Yeah, and the church is no different.
So the truth, if the truth hurts the brand, then
you've got to get rid of the sheep that's that's
bleeding out the thing that's hurting the brand, right. And
so yeah, I mean so like I don't think I've

(30:59):
ever said this on a show before, but like maybe
it's time. Like, you know, a lot of people come
under my feet and say like that I'm anti Mormon,
but I'm like, not anti Mormon at all. I'm really
not like I But here's what I am anti. I
am anti corporatism that masquerades as religion, you know, yes,
and unfair as far as I can discern, Like the

(31:22):
current iteration of the LBS church is nothing but corporatism
masquerading as religion. Right, And again that's not that's not
the spiritual body that I'm talking about. As we've discussed,
you know, several times, and I try to discuss on
every one of the shows that I do, there are
several million people who are part of the spiritual body
known as Mormonism, who are wonderful, christ Like people who

(31:45):
have zero idea about what they're supporting through the use
of their labor and their resources. They just don't have
any idea right well.

Speaker 2 (31:54):
And we see it like if you follow the money,
which is what you always say to do and other
people not. But like if you look at it, they
went from a very poor, struggling situation to Brigham Young
being worth a whole lot of money before he died.

Speaker 3 (32:11):
Sure, and then they lost it all and then they
did the sugar thing, and they gained it all back.
And then once once the sugar thing got rolling and
they had access to corridors of power from east to west,
it was pretty much game over at that point. And
like I've pointed out several times, and I feel like
I feel really naked today because I normally have my
presentation where I can I can show people that I'm
not making it up. But like once Heber J. Grant

(32:34):
took the reins, it was pretty much all over at
that point in my opinion, because Hebrew had no desire
to be a church leader. He if you could just
go read Heber J. Grant, like he tells you that
he didn't want to be a church leader. He would
tell his mom all the time because Heeber Kimball sat
him on a table and prophesied that he was going
to be a prophet, but Hebrew just wanted to be

(32:54):
a banker's that's all he wanted was to be a businessman.
And so, like it's weird because, like I think about
this in my own life a lot, like my profession
has nothing to do with what I really love to do.
But like you can't stop me from researching and reporting
because that's really who I am. And like I think
the same thing is true of Heber Grant. Like you can,
you can put him in the office of profit, but

(33:16):
you're not going to stop him from loving.

Speaker 2 (33:17):
Them now, right, No, not at all.

Speaker 3 (33:21):
And so from that point forward, you know, and I think,
like a lot of people call it the Brigamite Church,
I've sort of taken to calling it the Grand Heights
because from the point of Huber J. Grant forward, like
a lot of that royalty, right, that Mormon royalty that
we think of as the leaders of the church like
really come from that Grant line or lines, because it

(33:42):
comes from a Fligamus line, right, And so but yeah,
I mean at that point, I think what you have
is men who are deeply sincere but also deeply deluded
about the fact that they thought they could serve two masters,
which we were warned not to try to do right right.

Speaker 2 (33:59):
Yeah, and this all took place through what.

Speaker 3 (34:03):
Yeah, A big part of it, Yeah, not.

Speaker 2 (34:06):
Just that one, secret societies in general.

Speaker 3 (34:09):
Sure, oh yeah, Like that's man. I wish everybody had
a newspapers dot com subscription and could go back and
look at the newspapers from that day and just see.
I mean, because they would advertise. And again, like people
get confused about what a secret society is. They think
that they don't advertise who they are, and they don't
advertise when they're meeting or where they're meeting. That has
nothing to do with it, Like they want you to

(34:30):
know that. Like why is there a Masonic call in
every little city in America? Is it because they're trying
to hide where they are. No, they want you to
know that they're there. I had a hilarious meeting with
a kid at the Dollar General in a little town
in Tennessee and he was wearing a Freemason pin. He's
working in the front counter, and I tell you what,

(34:50):
Like I just said, hey, like I noticed your pin,
like are you a nice pin? And he got the
biggest smile on his face and he literally told me,
I kid, you not. He said, yeah, it's great to
be Amason because we are everywhere. And my sons were
with me. We were going to a camp out for
church or a hyde or something like that, and we
caught in the car. And I don't talk to my
kids about my research, but I said, I want you

(35:12):
guys to always remember this, Like this kid works at
Dollar General, but he feels super confident about who he
is and where his life is heat it because he's
a part of this group that literally is everywhere, even
though you would never know it.

Speaker 2 (35:25):
Right absolutely, And he may appear to only work at
Dollar General because Lee Harvey Oswald worked at a coffee shop.
So and everybody at that coffee shop, to your point,
afterward went to work at NASA. So I guess they
just got really smart overnight. I don't know. And people

(35:46):
can look this up. This this coffee place is still
is called Riley Coffee Company. It's still in existent today.
And so we see these things, and we know that
brothers take care of brothers. Okay, we know that, and
so you know and to your point about the Rothchilds,
like this is from a book Early Rothschild Financing eighteen

(36:06):
seventy six, I'm sure you've already heard this, you know,
from their Quorum of the twelve return from a year
long mission to England, according to their journals. So this
is all from journals that they kept like this isn't
you know, someone naking it up. This is from the
Joseph Smith papers. And so when they had first arrived there,

(36:27):
they were poorly dressed and had nothing. When they left
they were finally dressed. Well, what happened with that wealth?

Speaker 4 (36:36):
You know?

Speaker 2 (36:36):
And John Taylor records a very friendly conversation with French
baron Rothschilds at the town's end London House, and it's
possible that he made some deal with them. And in
eighteen ninety three it is recorded that the church was
three hundred thousand dollars in debt to them. So clearly
something happened.

Speaker 5 (36:55):
I mean, of course they'll say, oh no, there was
no loanmade, Wolden happened, you know. But the very yeah,
the very interesting part of it is, Okay, the rothschild
banker brothers, you know, they're involved with Whokon and Lobe,
which does resurface, right and yeah, and at the turn

(37:17):
of the century of nineteenth century, the Rothchild's rio tinto
Kennicott and they.

Speaker 2 (37:22):
Do own that to this day because I know someone
that works there, in fact is my son. So that
was fun. We get sometimes royalty checks, like different weird
checks and things, and they are literally from before the
Queen of England. Okay, we couldn't cash it here. It
was all weird and in pounds and it was a
whole problem. So I was like, what is it? What

(37:44):
is this? You know?

Speaker 3 (37:45):
I want to have?

Speaker 2 (37:48):
It was seventeen dollars. It was like some mistake they made,
and I thought it was funny, but they they do
say this, you know, those kind of relationships between that
and local area people, let alone the KKK, which we'll
get into that whole message, John Burge and all that stuff.

(38:09):
You know, we know that through the Guggenheim family that
was who originally sponsored the Kennicott digging in nineteen oh six,
and so this is like super important when people look
at this. But also the fun part is is you
know Peter Rupert, Lord Carrington and Elam member and chairman

(38:32):
of the Bildeberg Steering Committee made Kennicott's logo, which is
the Bavarian Illuminati symbol.

Speaker 3 (38:38):
Wow, So I did I have no idea, I me either.
That's so well and answer you've got at the same
time you mentioned kunin Lobe, and you've got Wilfred Woodruff
headed down to talk to them, and you've got him
at where the Bohemian Club. That's where he dies.

Speaker 2 (38:55):
Basically, and by the way, on that I was listening
to something Society guy and he says, just because it
says it's the Society. Yes, that's because the club is
not the Grove. That is the club, right, yeah?

Speaker 3 (39:11):
Right, So and then that leads to eventually you got
David M. Kennedy, right, who ends up at the Grove
at the same year that Reagan is there, in nineteen seventy,
right before Reagan becomes president, and right around the time
that you know, Kennedy's you know, going to become Nixon's
Treasury secretary or maybe even a little bit after. I
can't I don't remember how the years line up. But
you end up with David Kennedy, who, as we've talked

(39:34):
about I think in other shows, was good friends with
who Sindona right, who was what Opa stay right? And
so I mean it's just like it's never once you
start peeling back the layers and again asking that question
of what else happened other than Lorenzo Snow getting up
and giving talk about tithing right and the windows of Heaven,

(39:57):
whatever the heck that is right, or whatever story they
want to tell you, Like as soon as you start asking, well,
what else happened, like, it's just a never ending And
here's the thing that's so profound about it. To me,
I'll never forget the day where I just really like
I was doing research and I just sat back and
I just realized, like there is nothing special about Mormon history.

(40:20):
Like I grew up being told and taught that there
is like something different about Mormons, and so because there's
something different about Mormons, there has to be something different
about Mormon history. But in reality, Mormon history is just
human history. It's just another group of people who came
together around a set of common principles and then found
themselves drifting into the same thing that all humans drift into,

(40:43):
which is a desire for power, influence and gain right.
And there is nothing special, you know, whenever I argue,
I don't like to use that word, but like whenever
I have a conversation with a member of the Church,
and it gets to a certain point, I just say, hey,
look here, here's my big problem. Mormons have to argue

(41:03):
that they've been in existence for two hundred something years,
but they haven't established Zion. But they also want to
claim that they also haven't drifted into apostasy. Can you
show me any group of people in the scriptures that
survived for this long and stayed in stasis of this
all as well in zion kind of philosophy that people have,

(41:27):
And like, the answer to me is very simple, like no,
that doesn't happen, And like do I know where they
are on the scale? No, Like I'm not a prophet,
Like I'm not anything like that. But like when I
look at it and I see the leadership of the
church for how long. Now, let's just be very very conservative,
and let's just peg it at when the church got
involved with the central intelligence agency, like deeply involved a

(41:48):
central intelligence agency. So let's just give it eighty years
or so seventy years. Like when you see for the
last seventy years that the Church has been investing in
and teeming up with and working with the groups of
people who are most invested in keeping us in a
perpetual state of war while claiming to represent the Prince
of peace. I think that's a really hard argument to

(42:11):
make if you're a Mormon, Right, Yeah, I.

Speaker 2 (42:14):
Just stop one to fix in your mind.

Speaker 3 (42:17):
Yeah, and so, But of course they don't have to.
They don't have to try because they don't know that
the Church endorse the mission of the CIA in nineteen
eighty four. They don't know what the church's investment portfolio is.
And then a lot of them when they find out,
they just because they've been culturally conditioned in this fall
of the profit false doctrine, if I can say so, Right,
I know that's going to upset a lot of people,

(42:39):
but it's a false doctrine, especially if you read Joseph
Smith's translation of the Bible, which most Mormons haven't done
because Emma took it with her because she hated Brigham
and Brigham hated her, right and why?

Speaker 2 (42:50):
And I have a pretty good idea of why. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (42:54):
So, But most Mormons, they're so culturally conditioned to follow
the prophet. Even when they find out the Church is
engaged in illegal acts with ensign peak, their reaction is, well,
I'm just going to line up behind the prophet who said,
what it's over and we're not talking about it anymore.

Speaker 2 (43:11):
Right right, and burn her books and you know all
of that, and then they redid the book. And it's
just that book was a flex on Brigham to pay
her because she puts some things in there that are
absolutely going to connect with another movement, in fact, multiple

(43:32):
movements that make a lot of sense if you want
to look at the cabal that has become, you know,
secret societies turned into religion, and it's not just one.
It's not just the free naisance. It's not just uh,
you know, the fraternities. And when people say, well, what
do you think, who do you think did it? And
I said, the answer is yes.

Speaker 3 (43:52):
Right, absolutely, yeah, I mean I think who people who
expect to come to a group at the top of
the pyramid are going to be sorely disappointed. I can't again,
like I just don't remember the quote, you know, word
for word. This is exactly why I bring presentations because
I'm just I'm terrible at this game. But somebody sent

(44:12):
me something that said something along the lines of all
of history is nothing but power politics, and it's it's
never just a group like it's always like group fighting group,
but then realizing that they have a common interest forming
a larger group that then gets weeded out because you
can't have groups that are too big, right and so,

(44:33):
but it's just never ending power politics. And again Mormon
history is no different than that.

Speaker 2 (44:39):
It's just not you know, no, and and you know
you see this, and then you look at just the
sheer amount of this is just a few, okay, of
recognized committees and or secret secret groups. Okay, by the
time this book was written, and there's at least twenty

(45:02):
something I've never heard of, Okay, like the El Kala Temple,
ancient Arabic Order of Nobles, of the Mystic Shrine. You mean, oh,
the Shriners in the eighteen hundreds in Utah. These are
in Utah only, this is only Utah. These are the lodges.
This is their list by nineteen fifty eight. That's it.

(45:24):
And you know we've got daughters of the Nile, weird
gestures of the shrine. You want to tell me that
this didn't infiltrate here, like please, Job's daughters, Uh, my
favorite one, because you know, I definitely see a lot
of alignment with the templars. Are the ones that go

(45:44):
into that, and I'm like, you guys have to understand
that a lot of people keep a lot of secrets.
And the problem with you know, the world in general,
is that nothing's ever as it seems ever, right, And
that's scary. That's really scary.

Speaker 3 (46:03):
So can I stop you there for just a second again,
This is something that I just I've never really talked
about publicly, but it's a theory that I hold it
and this might as well just talk about it today
on a Friday evening right where we're relaxed, not doing positations.
So I really have had to ask myself what is
this driving motivation behind forming secret societies? Because as you

(46:24):
very like you've shown, very like beautifully, it is something
that from time immemorial has been an issue. Like human beings,
some human beings seem to have this need to form
clans that are based on secrets. And what's the whole
purpose of it. It's to give themselves an advantage through

(46:45):
secret networks, right that favor those who have been initiated
at the expense of those who have not been initiated.
And where does that really come from? And the answer
to me that I've come up with is fear, like
you just mentioned, these are people who don't trust God
that God can take care of them as an individual,

(47:06):
like Jesus was an individual, and you know, like and
then he formed not a secret society, but he formed
an organization around him to go out and do his
work publicly and openly. Right, But these people, for whatever reason,
have this fear that I think is rooted in a
lack of faith in my opinion. And then they then
there's this weird perversion of it, where like if you

(47:28):
want to be a part of our society, you have
to engage in this shame bonding for some reason which
I just really don't understand. But I mean obviously, like
you look at Epstein and like people love to talk
about that, and like the key is like if you
engage in shame bonding with me, then we both know
things about each other that will keep us from ever
telling the truth about what we're doing here, right, And

(47:49):
I don't think it's always as serious as the things
that we hear about on the daily news, but like
I mean, it's just simple things. It's just like any
time a secret society can get you to compromise your integrity,
they've got a piece of you that you can never
get back right right. And then when you look at
it as such a such a huge problem, even in

(48:10):
a place like Utah, you just start realizing, like you said,
nothing is as it seems because everybody around you has
engaged in shamee bonding rituals with somebody and the rest
of their life has to be spent making sure that
that information never finds, never sees the light of day.

Speaker 2 (48:26):
Well, and that is why Brigham disliked Lucy so much.
That book shed some light on you know, Joseph Smith's
grandpa was a universalist, and Lucy mac Smith has a
very interesting family line, and it goes into a spreading

(48:49):
of movements, not a movement, movements, and they off uscate
this so hard. And I'm going to be doing a
presentation on something called the prophetess of Mormonism because I
can tell you guys like this. You know, the templars
at the top worship a female. Okay, it's a female deity.

(49:09):
I don't think that that is the only thing the
Mormons worship. I think it's it's the equal split, you know,
And people that study gnoscissism will get this. And I
think that the reason why they obfuscate, you know, Mother
in Heaven, which we know is a thing they don't
say it's not, you know, they just won't say the name.
But it's so similar to what the Chakaina, you know.

(49:32):
And we see these Jewish roots planted deeply in Utah
so early, I mean early to where they have their
own communities and not just them Greeks. And who else
was Sindona Banker for on Nassis. That's how I ran
into David M. Kennedy. I'm always just baffled when I'm

(49:54):
studying something bananas like that Mormons shouldn't be there, really,
and I'm like, why are you here?

Speaker 3 (50:00):
What's that's such an important question? And yeah, I mean
like yeah, like I almost every week I have a
moment where I just stop and think, what was it
that made church leaders think that getting into bed with
the Central Intelligence Agency was a good idea for a church.
And I mean, like, I've been doing this for several

(50:22):
years now, and I've never been able to come up
with an answer except that they had a common enemy.
And again it goes back to power politics. The Central
Intelligence Agency wanted to topple communist governments so that democracy
could spread, and the Church of Jesus Christ needed communist
governments to topple so that they could take the Gospel
to the earth right. And so in this bizarre set

(50:46):
of circumstances, all of a sudden, you get church leaders
who decide, yeah, we're a church, but like, in order
to accomplish our goals as a church, we're not going
to rely on God to open those doors. We're going
to team up with the Central Intelligence Agency because they're
getting results. And you said something earlier in the presentation
that was kind of funny to me. You said, how
far back does it go to Adam and Eve? And
I think in a lot of ways, it does go

(51:07):
back to Adam and Eve. Because what was the problem
with Adam and Eve? They weren't willing to wait for
Father to come back to give them further instruction. It's
not like they were there in the garden of Eden
not knowing what was going to happen. Like Father had said,
I'll be back if you believe the Mormon narrative, right.
But what happens, Well, this adversary shows up and offers

(51:29):
them a fast track. He's going to get results for them, right,
And so they formed this alliance with Satan. And I
think that what we see in Mormon history is just
a replane of the Adam and Eve story over and
over again, where the leadership of the church doesn't have
enough faith and trust in God to open the doors
that need to be open to fulfill what they believe
to be prophecies. And so they formed these strange alliances,

(51:51):
right with banks, with railroad companies, with intelligence agencies, with
weapons manufacturers, with artificial intelligence companies, with like just all
these places that you would never expect to find somebody
who understands the Gospel of Jesus.

Speaker 2 (52:06):
Christ right right, And then you find all these strange
characters where you're like, why is Peter Till's family like
a big deal at BYU? And and I have the book,
like I literally have the book, like read the book,
like not online, like a real book where it talks

(52:27):
all about this. And to this day, Maser is still
one of the BYU buildings, like they pay omage to him.

Speaker 3 (52:34):
I've seen this, Can you tell me a little bit
more like I've seen him? Yes, yes, you guys trying
to make this connection. Tell me where that comes from.

Speaker 2 (52:39):
So it's very strange, and we ran into it, of course,
on accident. I was studying something completely different, and that's
usually where I find my best information, because it's a
complete accident, you know. And so we were looking at
some other Mormon settlers basically, and this Carl G. Maser M. E.

(53:01):
As R. Yes, he was one of the original Mormon
settlers alongside Brigham Young. And he was the first principal
of BYU. And he actually was converted in Germany and
came here. But he's a very interesting character. And you know,
there's pictures of him. There's a building named after him.

(53:22):
He was a prominent figure in the church. Like I said,
he became he served a mission and later became president
of Brigham Young University from eighteen eighty nine to eighteen
ninety two. How he met Brigham was he was there
teaching Brigham's children that he hired him as a teacher
and then this all, you know, became a part of it.

Speaker 3 (53:43):
I think he needed more than one teacher for all
of Britain's children. That's a big yes.

Speaker 2 (53:47):
Yeah, maybe there wasn't as many men, right, And then
he married. So Maser's daughter Annie Maser, married a man
named Frederick Teal who is Peter tills great great uncle,
and that makes Carl G. Maser Peter Till's great great uncle.
So his connection is to this day, it's so prominent,

(54:10):
Like there's Carl Maser Preparatory Academy, there's Carl Maser, like
all these buildings named after him and all this stuff,
and it was just it was bizarro world to me
because it was kind of like the Birchall guy, right,
like why aren't you where where did you come from?
Like you don't belong here? And and I think he,

(54:31):
you know, he just it fit well, right, it fits
well into their whole situation. But like I said, the book,
one of the books that I found him in, Rule
by Secrecy, okay was one. There was also another. There
was like three or four because he's such a big deal.

Speaker 6 (54:52):
You know.

Speaker 3 (54:53):
Yeah. And also when I went to be Ye, when
I went to b Yu, in order to win, there
was a scholarship competition and that year you had to
write an essay on Carl Maser, right, and so yeah, no,
I mean I knew the name as soon as you
guys threw it out. That's that's fascinating that the tie
is that close, right, I mean, that's not a huge
leap right there.

Speaker 2 (55:14):
You know, I didn't know. I mean, and that's like
I said, whenever we look at things and we find
I think I found him studying Romney. It is how
it was just an accident, you know, and these happy
accidents are so funny because I'm like, what where did
this guy come from? And I can't take all the credit.
Certainly Miao lyon, she's on X you guys, she really

(55:37):
went deep into this. I just found the basics and went,
wait a minute, what and then she took it from
there and has done a whole lot. I found him
in some of the books and posted the pictures I
posted are from a real like a physical book. So
that's why I'm like, yeah, this is for real real
because these are old, old books, and so you know,
it just is so strange when you look at this,

(56:01):
you know, And even somebody questioned this a branch of
eight members formed with Carl as the presiding elder, and
they were going to emigrate to America. Well was this
actual or is this intelligence operation? And somebody asked that,
and I was like, oh my gosh, I would have
never even thought about that, Like, I don't think like that.

(56:24):
You know what I mean, it's strange, yeah, and.

Speaker 3 (56:28):
Those I mean, those are hard questions to answer, right,
I mean, if it was a good intelligence operation, you'll
never know it. That's what makes it good intelligence. But like, so,
I mean, I know that this is a big thing
in the world right now. I know that, Like, because
we live in a time where nobody can trust anybody.
You know, it's it's really tempting to call everything an
influence operation or an intelligence operation or a psychological operation.

(56:50):
And that's okay. I mean, like, I think it's one
of the ways that we hold it together during times
when you can't trust anybody. But I mean, in the end,
I think there's a lot less control than people believe.
I think that a lot of it is just very
chaotic and it's factions trying to form alliances and then
alliance is breaking apart, and it's not so much and orchestrated.

(57:13):
I mean, there's certainly agendas. Like if Ben McClintock from
True Liberty Society we're here right now, he'd be so
mad at me, right because a lot of his work
is about these organizations that have agendas. And I'm not
saying that there aren't those there certainly are, and there's
certainly like there's certainly a group of people. I would
categorize it into two groups of people, which probably is
because of my Mormon upbringing, But I would categorize it

(57:34):
like this. There is a large group of people who
believe in stripping human beings of their agency and directing
like the flow of history. And then there's a group
of people who believe in giving humans their agency and
allowing history to unwind as it does inside of the
chaos that naturally comes from giving people the ability to
make choices, and so like, by no stretch of the

(57:56):
imagination are there no agendas. There clearly are. Rotoric International
has an agenda, United Nations has an agenda, right, the
Builderberg Group has an agenda. Council on Foreign Relations has
an agenda, And those agendas all tend to line up,
broadly speaking, And so you'll see these groups come together
to form alliances. But then the devil's in the details,

(58:17):
and when they try to get down to brass tacks,
they fight, and so then they'll break off for a
while again, and then they'll break off again, And it's
just this constant swirling of individuals and groups trying to
breed to pass sort of this overall theme of do
humans get their agency or do they not? Like, if
I had to encapsulate all of human history into one
broad stroke, it would be that like, are we going

(58:40):
to let humans make their own choices? Or are we
going to create societies that take away their ability to
make their own decisions?

Speaker 2 (58:47):
Well? And are people going to stand up and say, look,
I me too. I like to feel included, but I
am not a joiner. I've always been on the outskirts
of everything as long as I can remember, as a
small child. Because if I saw some injustice right, like
they're picking on so and so or whatever, I'm definitely

(59:08):
one to take on a mob of angry people for
that human being because I don't like injustice. My scales
are very I don't like that, you know. I have
a hard time with it. And that is the biggest
problem with LDS inc. Maybe not the people. And I
always am quick to say, like you've said, these people

(59:31):
that are in this church for the most part, that
don't know this stuff, none of this garbage, Okay, not
the elite, not the people living at Mount Olympus, for
Heaven's sake, not in rotary. They're just human beings that
want to go to heaven. And that's who I was really,
that's what I was doing. And I wanted to help
my neighbor, and I wanted to be a good person,

(59:52):
and I wanted to do everything I did because I
thought that that's what you do to go to heaven,
not because I wanted to be a freemason. And that
is the unfair part. I didn't even know what a
freemason was when I went through the temple. And people say,
that's stupid you there's no way you know that you
couldn't know, and I'm like, I didn't know until twenty twenty.

Speaker 3 (01:00:15):
Well, yeah, I mean I think, and I think that's
very representative of many, many, maybe the majority of Mormon's lives,
especially if you were born in the church. I was, yeah, absolutely, yeah,
I don't think there's anything unusual about that. I mean,
I think. And again, the question to me just goes
back to, like, why do we find Mormon leadership so
closely aligned with so many groups that want to take

(01:00:36):
away the agency of man?

Speaker 2 (01:00:39):
Right? They don't represent anything that, like you said, and
part of your story has been this doesn't align with
what they're supposed to be doing. I believe that's why
you got in trouble, because you wrote a letter saying
this doesn't align right. This is they're doing the dark sacrament,

(01:00:59):
and that does any line with you know, God and
all these things that we believe.

Speaker 3 (01:01:05):
Yeah, let's let's explain to people what that's about. So
I mean, yeah, that is I did. And I actually
didn't get in a lot of trouble at that particular point,
at least on the local level. But yeah, I mean,
like what sort of brought it to a boil in
my life was, you know, this rumor that Russell M.
Nelson was a member of Skull and Bones. And you know,
I've obviously taken a pretty controversial position on that because

(01:01:27):
I now say that he lied about that and he
was actually never a member of that society, but he
did write it in his autobiography. And because I grew
up a member of the church believing that we could
trust the prophets, I just took him at his word.
And so in my Mormon brain, it didn't make any
sense that this man who was going to be leading
the church, or was leading the church would be a

(01:01:48):
part of a group like that. And so I got
really committed to finding out why that was. And then
what we found, of course, is that the University of
Utah was involved in you know, a huge it was
a huge hub of Greek living, right, And then we
drove back even further and we found out that like
John Taylor knew that there was a conspiracy to overthrow

(01:02:10):
the University of Utah because when he was serving as president,
he overheard it. He overheard two members of the Bord
of Regents who weren't Mormons, talking about this conspiracy, and
he wrote about it in a book called in as
Summent Land. Then we also know it.

Speaker 2 (01:02:25):
And he really tried. It was more than that page.
I read that whole thing. I bought the book because
of you, and I knew that quote, and I just
seen it at the bookstore and I thought, oh my gosh,
that's a book that Justin was talking about. So I
grabbed it and he tried. I actually feel bad for
him because he even said I would be better off

(01:02:47):
being a garbage man than working here because of I
don't make much money. And basically they were being not
nice to him.

Speaker 3 (01:02:55):
Sure, sure, but I mean and then it could even
go even further than that, because then we find out
that the first presidency of the Church is writing an
epistle that's read in general conference, which is the closest
thing you can get to scripture, right, Like we have
to remember, when you're reading the New Testament, what are
you reading? You're reading epistles that were written by apostles

(01:03:15):
to congregations. So we have the first presidency, which is
like George Q. Cannon at that time, and I think
it's John Taylor who's in there, and that kind of thing.
But they're writing an epistle to the church that's read
in general conference that speaks as plainly as you can.
If you go to my One of the funniest things
is if you go to my Twitter side or my

(01:03:36):
ex feed, my description is actually a quote that comes
from that epistle. And everybody, all the Mormons, like to
make fun of me, and they say, oh, you're such
a conspiracy theist, And then I get to say, well,
you know that's actually from an epistle written by your
first presidency, right, And so then the only question becomes
was the first presidency, right? Was there a conspiracy? Is

(01:03:57):
John Wisoe a faithful witness? Is he reporting what he
actually heard? And if those two questions have a yes answer,
then the only question becomes were the conspirators successful in
executing their plans? And I think the historical record bears
out so clearly, like it's a slam dunk. I would
go into any courtroom any day and make the case

(01:04:17):
that the conspirators were able to do exactly what they wanted,
which was to water down the teachings of Mormonism, implement
the Greek Living Society, draw the youth of the church
away from Mormonism and into secularism, and then implant them
in positions of power, influence of gain in industry right business,
in church, in government, and in media. Like we can

(01:04:40):
document all of that and it's not even that hard
it all. It's all like it's just a matter of
opening your eyes and being willing to look at the evidence.

Speaker 2 (01:04:49):
Well, then you see so much. You know, Okay, these
are brilliant people. Much of the time people always say, oh,
you're so stupid, right like that I believed like that,
I didn't know what a freemaker or whatever. But you're not.
Because when you're in it, when you're in this, okay,
when you're in it and you're born in it, and
you're raised in it, and you and everybody for as
long as Xena Huntington was in it. Okay, you don't

(01:05:13):
question things, first of all, and second of all, like
if your grandma tells you something, and your great grandma
tells you and you just don't even why would I look?
Why I wouldn't look? And I didn't look, and I
trusted them, like you said, right, this is a trust thing.
You really believe these people have your very best interests
at heart, honestly, and they make you feel very loved.

(01:05:36):
You know this. You know it's hard because when you
leave or under any circumstance, if that's not there anymore,
it is incredibly lonely. And so no one would choose
that way, like unless there was a reason, right, sure,
And so when you're when you're like we are, and
I feel like you're like me, I see it with Ben,

(01:05:59):
when you are a very justice driven human being, you know,
and these scales matter to you, and you want to
stand up because people always say, why don't you just
shut up because you left the church. I'm sure you
get it too, but you can't leave it alone. And right,
it's like their favorite thing to say. And I'm like,
because if you were in a I always say this

(01:06:20):
on a raft and everyone was drowning all around you,
like the Titanic, would you not try to go back
if you had a room? I would and I have.
And that's the point. And people always say you hate Mormons,
and I'm like, quite the opposite, Sure I love them.

Speaker 3 (01:06:37):
Yeah, what a silly thing to say, Like you can
leave the church, but you can't leave it alone. Like
that's just like, that's just there's nothing to that other
than it's a catchy slogan, which unfortunately is a lot
of lvs Inc's power is developing catchy slogans like families
can be together forever, or think celestial, or if you're

(01:06:58):
not very good at it, you can be durant and
say ponderize and have your store set up at the
same time that general conference is going so you can
sell merch so like. But this is a lot of
like what's happened to the like This is why I
consider lvs Inc. A parasite that's lashed itself onto the
spiritual body that goes by the same name. Right, they're

(01:07:18):
both known as the church, Like legally they're both known
as the church of Jesus Christ and Litterday Saints, but
only one of them is a church, which should be
your first hint that something's wrong, right, And I personally
believe if I was ever going to advocate for something,
I would advocate that no corporation could ever use the
word church in their name because that creates just massive confusion.

(01:07:40):
Like and I think, if you're going to have a name,
you need to be properly identified. And so the fact
that they're able to call themselves the Church of Jesus
Christ Literday Saints, what that does is that opens the
door for Akmad Corbett to get up and say advocacy
towards the church is a sin. But what nobody realizes
is that you can advocate towards the corporation and never
even talk about the church because they really truly are

(01:08:02):
two completely separate entities, one of which needs to be
advocated against, because nothing changes a corporation unless you advocate
against it, or you drive pressure by making them less profitable.
But the only way to drive them to being less
profitable is to advocate for your positions and to show
what it is that they're doing. So, like I very

(01:08:23):
much believe in advocacy towards the corporation. I would encourage
everybody to understand what the corporation is doing at all times,
and when they see them doing things like they did
at ensign peak, like you should withdraw your support long
enough for them to get the message that you don't
sustain people who engage in a.

Speaker 2 (01:08:40):
Legal behavior, right, right, right, it's so sad.

Speaker 3 (01:08:45):
Then they can talk about, you know, advocacy towards the
church all they want, But for those of us who
understand the actual organizational structure of these two entities, like
that doesn't land anywhere, because I don't want to advocate
towards the church like I want to separate. I want
to get the parasite off the church that I love
so that the lifeblood can come back into it and
maybe the things that I was taught were going to happen, Like,

(01:09:09):
maybe they can actually happen if we can get like,
if we can get some help back in the spiritual body.
But right now, it's just a huge bureaucracy where you've
got lovely people doing lovely things. But then as soon
as you get into leadership, you're now a corporate officer
in a lot of ways, even though in reality you're not,
but the corporation's going to treat you like a corporate officer.

(01:09:30):
So again, going back, I'm lbs abuse. Like the prime
example of this is no Mormon bishop or state president
goes to bed scared of being arrested for telling an
abuse victim to go away. Why because the corporation is
going to provide them some of the best lawyers, right
and like just like ultimate protection. And so no bishop

(01:09:51):
feels compelled to find out how to handle cases of abuse.
Like you don't ever go into a bishop's interview and
hear somebody say, I'd really like to take this position,
but I know I'm going to into abuse because we're
a large organization, and in large organization's abuse happens, and
I'm not prepared to handle that. Like why Like any
any sane individual taking a position like that, if they

(01:10:13):
hadn't been culturally conditioned to believe that the call was
divine the inspired, right, Like, nobody would take that position
without getting proper training. But these good men, right and women,
release society presidents and so on, like they don't recognize that,
Like they come under a corporate umbrella at that point, right,

(01:10:35):
and so like they can go to bed at night
not having to worry about the consequences of their choices
because they've got a huge, multinational, multi billion dollar company
to protect them if they make a mistake, which.

Speaker 2 (01:10:47):
Is terrifying, which it is. And then they get a
slap on the wrist when they do some really bad
things like that enzigme peaks scandal popped out in twenty nineteen,
twenty twenty, and then the whole you know what happened.
And then who owns the companies that manufacture the drugs
they do, They're a big, huge part of it. Who

(01:11:09):
owns the labs that do the tests they are, who
owns the insurance companies even they do like and not
all of them. But you guys might be surprised about
the lists. You know, they're crazy. I mean they're holding
at that time. Number four at that time was Johnson
and Johnson. Big surprise, you know.

Speaker 6 (01:11:28):
So yeah, well, let's talk about how this works with
breaking news like just today we found out that Elder
Christofferson's brother was arrested and is sitting in Salt Lake
County jail for excuse me, child sex abuse crimes.

Speaker 3 (01:11:45):
Okay, now here's the thing I have like the most
amazing group of people around me who constantly feed me information,
and within like an hour at the most of that
news breaking, Floodlet is the one who broke that. I
always like to mention flood Lit because everybody needs to
go to flood lit dot org and get a sense
of the nature and scope of the problem of abuse
in the church, and floodlet is the best of the

(01:12:05):
best at documenting that. But so they're the ones who
reported this yesterday or this morning. But within an hour
of me finding out somebody and me posting it on Twitter,
somebody sent me a Reddit post where this brother of
Detad Christopperson was already a known pedophile. He lived in Ohio.
He was excommunicated in the nineties. Now I haven't validated

(01:12:28):
this yet, so everybody take it with a grain of salt.
I will validate it eventually. But what this post says is, look,
this man got excommunicated from the church in the nineties
and then they did what They gave him a slap
on the wrist, and they rebaptized him. And now here
we are in twenty twenty five and he's sitting in
Salt Lake County jail. Do you think the bishop who

(01:12:48):
brought this man back into the church is going to
ever even hear about it. No, do you think that
this guy himself might get some special dispensation because of
who his brother is in Utah? Absolutely right, Like we
see cases of special dispensation all the time inside the
church hierarchy. Right, So, like.

Speaker 2 (01:13:12):
I just don't know all the thing just screams of
like operation hive strike, Like they just barely did that
that affected me. That was in my community where I live,
where my daughter actually was Okay, And when you're talking
about these people, like you said, they all look pristine
on paper. But then if you go back far enough, right,

(01:13:32):
just like the guy that got Elizabeth Smart, this is
like the same thing over again. Yeah, and you've told that,
you know, Like sure, I mean so that again, Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:13:42):
That Mount Olympus story would do so much damage to
the church if it ever got traction. And I mean,
to David David eccles Hardy's credit, he did everything he could.
He took that story to that I mean, and I
don't know how much he knew about everything went on
an Olympus, but he definitely knew enough. And he went
to the Washington Post. They said they would take the
story and came back later because the church put pressure

(01:14:05):
on them and they buried it. He took it to
the New York Post. They are not the New York Post,
the New York Times. Excuse me, they wanted the story, right,
I have the press passes, like I have the press passes,
but they bury the story, right, Like the Church is
so unbelievably powerful that people, like people don't understand that m.

(01:14:29):
Russell Ballard knew Lord Thompson of Thompson Reuters, right, who
ended up selling to Fox News. Right, They don't know
that Dllan Oaks sat on the PBS board and then
after him it was like Bruce Christiansen or something like that.
I can't remember. They don't know like that the owner
of Time magazine and the La Times. Like, the Church

(01:14:50):
is one of the pre eminent media powers in the
entire world, and people just part.

Speaker 2 (01:14:55):
Of the reason why Watergate happened was because of a
newspaper thing in Vegas. Yeah, this is all It's infiltrated everywhere.

Speaker 3 (01:15:03):
Yeah, so people don't understand, like how much power the
church has to control the narrative. But if people found
out about this Mount Olympus situation we found just this
week another situation with a good friend of Gordon Hinckley
who lived where a mile away from these people that
we already knew it. There were three of them, right,
and we'll just touch on this really quickly. But we
have Brian David Mitchell, like you talked about, who ended

(01:15:26):
up kidnapping Elizabeth Smart, right, who is really tied into
Avrahan Gileadi, which I don't even know if I want
to get into, but okay.

Speaker 2 (01:15:36):
We have time. I'm gonna wiggle a lot because of
my back, but that's just normal for me.

Speaker 3 (01:15:40):
Yeah. So Brian David Mitchell was really into Avraham Gillotti,
which right now Tim Ballard is advertising AVRAHANM. Gileadi's Isaiah
Institute on his Instagram. Right. So we got Brian David
Mitchell who ends up kidnapping Elizabeth Smart. We've got David
Fuller who ends up murdering a little girl by the

(01:16:01):
name of Casey Woody. And then we've got Bill Carstenson
who ends up in Bountiful allegedly abusing children with Dick
and Brenda Miles. Okay, then he gets diagnosed as a
pedophile and because the church doesn't take action against him.
He marries a church employee and ends up abusing several
other children, one of which had to have surgeries because

(01:16:22):
of the damage that Bill Carson's ended to her, and
one of which ended up dead at a very young age,
largely because his life was so chaotic after being abused
as a child. Right, So this Mount Olympus story is
way way bigger than anybody understands. And the fact that
the church turned a blind eye because the people living
in Mount Olympus were people like m Russell Ballard, I

(01:16:44):
think Henry b Iren was there for a little while, right,
Like it was like Mormon Royalty ironically living in this
place that was named after what the home of the
Greek gods, so crazy, like it's perfect, right, it's like Shakespearean, right,
Like they just can't help themselves. They cannot help trying
to serve two masters, whether it's Mammon or whether it's Constantine,

(01:17:08):
or whether it's the Greek gods. Like they're just stuck
in a world where they just like being Mormon isn't
enough for whatever reason for them, right to the point
where Russell M. Nelson decides it's not even a good
idea to call ourselves Mormons anymore as we try to
christianize right and become more evangelical and identify with these
larger these larger groups, which was clearly a goal of

(01:17:31):
m Rustle Ballard, the really.

Speaker 2 (01:17:34):
Trying to do that. Why didn't they go back to
the original name. Hello, it was called the Church of Christ.
And and people don't even understand the implications of even
that clear back then, Like if you look back at
Dartmouth and Professor Johnny Smith, it gets into a lot
of teachings that are very strange, and then you wonder why,

(01:17:57):
you know, you see these practices of horrible things, Okay,
Like you know, we both know that if you have
the second anointing, there is nothing except the actual killing
of an innocent person, which is a child underneath the
age of eight. Okay, that can get you even in trouble.
I dare say, even if you're excommunicated, because it unless

(01:18:20):
you've got excommunicated for killing somebody under the age of
eight or what apostasye right right, which.

Speaker 3 (01:18:28):
Now is find is what apostasy they've changed the definition of.

Speaker 2 (01:18:32):
I did not know that, oh of course.

Speaker 3 (01:18:34):
Yeah, Like if you look at I mean just go
to Google and type in apostasy in Christianity, and apostasy
is the renunciation of all of your religious beliefs, including,
like in our church, your belief in Jesus Christ. But
in the Mormon Church, if you go look at the
definition of apostacy in the Handbook of Instructions, it's now
about what it's about, not sustaining the brethren.

Speaker 2 (01:18:55):
Okay, Right, So if you still love Jesus and believe
in Joe, have been every single other thing, it's not
okay if you don't sustain the crookedness of sure the men, And.

Speaker 3 (01:19:07):
That's what they got me for, right, I mean, the
official story is, and there's a lot more to this
story that I'm just not able to tell, but like
the official story is that I was an apostate because
I wasn't sustaining the brethren.

Speaker 2 (01:19:19):
But you believe in all of it still, other than
the corruption.

Speaker 3 (01:19:22):
I mean, I geve as much of it as I
always did. I mean, like my at my core, I
am a Mormon and probably always will be, because how
do you get rid of that if you've been culturally
conditioned to be a Mormon from the time you were born, right,
I mean I still believe in yeah, in all the
major things, but I'm not willing to let a man,
especially a man who claims that he's one of fifteen

(01:19:45):
men that you can trust completely. But then I can
find like again, like, I would take this to any
courtroom like that, he's lying about faith, promoting stories, he's
receiving abuse, cover up instructions and acting on those abuse
cover up instructions, to cover up abuse to protect his
family and the church's image and house's like, why would

(01:20:05):
I ever let a man like that stand between me
and Jesus.

Speaker 2 (01:20:08):
Christ right right now?

Speaker 3 (01:20:10):
And they want you to believe that all they're just humans, right,
which is true.

Speaker 2 (01:20:15):
Well, but then they win on both sides of this one.
I hate this because whenever I bring that up and
I say, what about this stuff right here? You know
what about Brigham Young saying we should kill our neighbor
if they need to be killed? That one, Okay, that's
a fun one. You know, if you have somebody that
needs their blood spilt, spill it because you love them,

(01:20:35):
and that's great. Okay, Well that's weird. So if you
bring that up to somebody, then they'll say, well, he's
only a man Heidi, and I'm like, wait, I thought
he was the prophet and that means he's like next
to God and speaks to God and like all of
this right, So like he's getting like direct revelation from
God and writing it down and telling us because we

(01:20:57):
need to know. And so wh what part of that?
I mean he just gets to win either way?

Speaker 3 (01:21:03):
Sure? Well, And here's the thing, so are they just human? Absolutely?
And again for those of us who read our scriptures,
nobody who reads their scriptures should ever expect perfection from
a prophet, because the scriptures testify repeatedly that prophets aren't
going to be perfect. But what do they need to
be perfect in or close to perfect in repentance? Like

(01:21:25):
the man that I want leading me if I'm going
to give, If I'm going to put anybody between me
and Jesus Christ, it needs to be somebody that I
can see repents when they make a mistake. And unfortunately,
it's very difficult to find any historical record of any
prophet repenting of things that they've done in a very
very long time.

Speaker 2 (01:21:45):
It's denial. And I dare say Joseph was almost the closest,
but not quite. I mean we still know there were
problems there, but he seems a little more repentant than
some Well.

Speaker 3 (01:21:55):
He was certainly he was certainly open to putting his
to documenting his mistakes in scripture, wasn't he when the
Lord chastised Just when's the last time that a prophet
talked about the Lord chastising them? Right? Probably Joseph, Right,
Maybe I don't know, Like I haven't researched this, So
somebody's gonna somebody's gonna go out there and say, Justin's wrong.
Love this, And that's fine because I probably, But like

(01:22:17):
in my lifetime has a prophet ever stood up in
general conference and said, hey, guys, I made a decision
that the Lord chastised me about, and I need to
repent to that in front of you because you all
trust me, and in order to keep your trust, I
need to share with you how the Lord chastise me
for this.

Speaker 2 (01:22:32):
I can't even have even just saying you made the mistake,
like even if he doesn't want to go into like
this is what happened because of that. I mean, they
don't even do that.

Speaker 3 (01:22:43):
No, yeah, No, Instead you have President Oakes who says,
we think of it this way, the things that we
did may not have pushed us towards the goal in
the way that we wanted to, But we don't make
apologies nor do we ask for them. Can you point
me to a scripture that like backs that position up? Like,
is is there a part of the Doctrine and Covenants
that I missed? It says we don't ask for forget

(01:23:06):
or like, we don't ask for apologies, nor do we
make them.

Speaker 2 (01:23:09):
It sounds just like Trump, by the way, he said
some crap like that too. But I mean, yeah, we
don't have to draw that parallel exactly. But I'm just
saying these people that think they're God, which I have
a huge problem with. This is one part of the
theology I do have a problem with because over and
over in the Bible it says we are not like God,
and we're not because we don't think like him or anything,

(01:23:32):
and we're special in our own way, but also like
we are His children, and I get that peace, but
we I don't believe godhood is something that ever should
be portrayed to anybody because it makes men do bad
things and women. When I say men, I mean.

Speaker 4 (01:23:48):
People mankind, right, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:23:51):
No, I mean I agree. I mean I think that.
I mean, one of the things that's so amazing about
Mormonism to me is like and I don't know, I mean, like,
I think that a lot of people have a good
point that you can find these ideas in any major
world religion. But this idea that anytime a man gets authority,
or supposes that he gets authority, you're going to find
that he's going to drift away from God, I think

(01:24:13):
is a classic principle that we should all take into
consideration in our lives. And like, let's go back to
a little bit of history. We've kind of drifted away.
But like I think where you see this in the church,
a lot goes back to David Kennedy. You know, once
David Kennedy was done with his government service, Spencer W.
Kimball was I think really pulling what little hair he
had out because the gospel wasn't spreading fast enough and

(01:24:35):
he really felt responsible for spreading the gospel across the world.
And David M. Kennedy, they could have called them as
a general authority if they wanted to. They could have
put him inside of the ecclesiastical structure and stayed inside
of priesthood channels. But I think that Kimball like felt
like we've been trying this for one hundred and twenty
five years and it's not working, so like we're going

(01:24:56):
to take it outside of priesthood channels. And that's not
me saying that. Like, the historical literature is very clear
that like they brought in David Kennedy, they brought in
Beverly Campbell, right, and they set up the International Mission
in the Special Affairs Committee and the International Office, right,
and these were organizations that were outside of normal priestood channels. Right.

(01:25:22):
And again I'm just like, I just stop and I
ask myself, if you believe in God and have faith
that he can execute according to the promises that he made,
why do you need to set up organizations outside of
priesthood channels. What's the purpose of that? And of course,
like in my opinion, like we can really see the
fruits of that, like because when you read the thousand

(01:25:44):
you know, two thousand pages of Beverly Campbell's memoirs that
you can see very clearly what the fruits are of
setting up operations inside the church office building that don't
run under priestood authority and it's not good.

Speaker 2 (01:25:58):
And that one that you did with me on that
I'm going to clean up and re release because it
is so important. I really feel, you know, people need
to look at these things. If not a podcast, that's great.
If you don't want to do that, go read the book.
Like I mean, it's there, right, it's still all available.

Speaker 3 (01:26:15):
It is, It's still up on archives. It's really hard
to find. So there's a funny story behind this, and
I'll just tell it. I don't know if it's true,
but I've heard I've heard this. I've heard that the
year that I started researching Beverdy Campbell, Desrett Book was
planning on releasing a book about her at Deseret Book.
But then I released my research on it, and apparently

(01:26:38):
it was bad enough that they had to pull the
book from Deseret Book and not publish it because and
so then, like for a long time, my research on
Beverly Campbell was at the top of Google search, but
over the years, as I haven't kept up with it, like,
it's very hard to find that book. But you can
still find the link to it on my Twitter feed
if you just look from you know, from LDS abuse,

(01:26:58):
Beverly Campbell like you'll find link, and if you hit
the link directly, you can still find those memoirs, but
good luck finding it without the without the direct link
at this point.

Speaker 2 (01:27:06):
So maybe you can send that to me and I'll
put it in that re release of that bevery Campbell
one because that will help them. But it's important, I mean,
history is so, I mean, she let a lot of
things slip man like God.

Speaker 3 (01:27:21):
Well, the most important, the most important of that is
the relationship between the Mormons and the Jews, especially for
like today, where we're seeing this like like, let's just like,
let's represent both sides of the argument. So one side says,
there we're seeing a rising tide of anti Semitism, right,
excuse me. The other side says that we're seeing some
very problematic Zionist behavior, right, and that's a very real

(01:27:44):
controversy right now. Well, if you want to understand where
Mormonism fits into this debate, you have to go and
read Beverly Campbell's memoirs because at the time that Beverly
Campbell took over, that relationship hadn't yet been established. But
Beverly Campbell is the one who brought the into these
multi faith councils and specifically, like you'll find that some

(01:28:07):
of these groups didn't want the Mormons to be a
part of it. But the Jews stood up and said,
if you don't bring the Mormons in, we are leaving,
which of course nobody's going to allow that to happen, right,
and so, but if you don't understand Beverly Campbell's story,
then you don't understand the tie between Mormonism and Judaism
at this point in history. You just don't have any

(01:28:27):
clue about how that happened.

Speaker 2 (01:28:28):
Well, same thing Mormonisms, yeah, and the Mormonism on this,
Like honestly, this used to be a teaching for people
that don't know. The early Mormons believed that when they
received the Holy Ghost that their blood would physically change
to become Jewish. And this is actually like real, like

(01:28:48):
that that was real for people. And I mean that's
like it should it should speak, Okay, Let alone that
orson Hide went there two is before the Balfour Declaration
and claimed a piece of like a very important hill,
okay for the Mormon Church, and he was Jewish. It

(01:29:11):
has been proven now he was an orphan. And now
they have proven that he was Jewish and they say
his last real name was Heidelbaum. Oh really, So I'm
just saying, like, this isn't just like they say, like
somebody sent this to me. No, no, no, this is
all stuff from like D. Michael Quinn and all these

(01:29:34):
different books that I'm looking into, including one in the
Millennial Star and talking about like you know, the Kabbala
and Rosicrucian work, and this is all hide and like
it gets crazy because he went to the amount of
olives crossed the brooks seed drown and offered a prayer
on paper and claimed it for their own. Yeah, that's

(01:29:58):
pretty big. And to know that he was here and
all of a sudden there's an odd Fellows temple that
happened and he's an orphan.

Speaker 3 (01:30:08):
Like yeah, So I mean a lot of this. I
think a lot of what intrigues U hiding And you
can correct me if I'm wrong, But I think a
lot of the reason that we do what we do
is we want to know what these secret teachings are, right,
I just I just I think it was a week
ago or two weeks ago I revisited a book called
Mysteries of the Gospel Further Light Knowledge that they used to.

Speaker 2 (01:30:29):
Oh I saw your post. Oh my gosh, this is bad.

Speaker 3 (01:30:32):
So I mean, look, they used to sell this book
in Brigham Young University bookstore. It's not like it's not
like it's like some secret esoteric thing. But the press
says right away, this is not to be shared with
non Mormons, it's not to be shared with ex Mormons,
and you're not even supposed to share it with the
general membership of the church. And then it's thirty six

(01:30:54):
hundred pages of teachings about these things that you're talking about,
Like what's the purpose of a patriarchal blessing? It's to
be adopted into or to have your lineage declared as
a member of a tribe of Israel, Right, And like
you said, this teaching about blood litery changing. I heard
that growing up, right, Like, so, what are these secret

(01:31:15):
teachings that like these groups like you mentioned the Council
of Fifty. Does the Council of Fifty still exist? I
would not be shocked at all if the Council of
Fifty still exists. I would not be shocked to find
out that the leadership of the church believes that the
current prophet and president is literally the King of the earth.
We know that that's what Joseph was aiming at and
declared himself as so like did that just disappear off

(01:31:37):
the face of the earth when Joseph disappeared, Like I kind.

Speaker 2 (01:31:40):
Of feel like he let too many cats out of
the bag that king fall at discourse got him indeed drivel.

Speaker 3 (01:31:46):
Sure so, but so here again, like, do we trust
the members of the church or do we only utilize
Here's my concern. This is my biggest concern of all,
and I again, I think the historical record like makes
it worth of concern because why do these investors and
groups of outside influences like the church so much. It's

(01:32:08):
funny because like the members of the church are actually
really proud of this. When you talk to them about well,
why does the CIA want access to Mormons, and they say, well,
we're very clean, Like we live a clean moral lifestyle, right,
we speak many languages, we listen to this. But what
they never mentioned is will do anything that our leaders
tell us to. Right, So, what happens if you're an

(01:32:31):
investor and you invest with the leadership of the Church
of Jesus cristilities is that you get several million worker
bees that go along with that, And my concern is
that these leaders of the church have taken and they've
really created a situation in which many members of the
church are not as well off as they could be

(01:32:53):
if they didn't allow themselves to be enslaved by the
machinations of the church in terms of who they I mean, like,
I just like, let's just tell a story really quickly
about this, and like you don't have.

Speaker 2 (01:33:08):
To be really quickly. We're having fun.

Speaker 3 (01:33:12):
We'll ask ourselves like some hypothetical qunctions about it. Okay,
So we know that one of the people that went
to work for the Central Intelligence Agency was a bishop
of the Mormon Church who worked in the Enhanced Interrogation Project, which,
in case anybody doesn't know about the Enhanced Interrogation Project,
it was simply torture. They were just figuring out ways

(01:33:33):
to torture human beings to try to get them to
tell us what we wanted them to tell us too.
And so one of these men was a Mormon bishop. Okay,
So I just want people to stop for a second,
and sometimes we just gloss over the story without thinking
about the individuals involved in the story, Like where do
you think that this Bishop got an idea that it
was okay to work for the Central Intelligence Agency. Where

(01:33:54):
do you think that he got the idea that it
was okay to work on the enhanced interrogation program? Where
do you think that he got the eye idea that
he thought that he was going to get away with it? Right, Well,
he had nothing to worry about, because where do you
think he got recruited? And I don't know this for
a fact, but we do know for a fact that
the CIA is coming to Utah every single year, recruiting
out of straight out of Brigham Young University. Right, So

(01:34:17):
you as a member of like you talk about these
naive members of the church, Like, I've never met a
more naive group of people that I met at Brigham
Young University and I only went there for the last
two years of my education. But like you, just you
can't even begin to imagine the naive today of the
people at Bridam not all of them, but many of them.
And so you're this naive young kid and you're going

(01:34:39):
through your degree program, you go on a mission, you
learn a foreign language, you come back to Brigham Young University,
and one of the first things that happens to you
is you go to a meeting where the CIA is recruiting.
So where do you get this idea that it's okay.
You get it from the people that you trust the most,
Like you mentioned earlier, you trust that they have your
best interest at heart. So then from the moment that
you step through the doors of this Central Intelligence agency,

(01:35:01):
you're operating under this assumption that it's okay. Whatever they
ask you to do must be okay because the leaders
of the church have endorsed the mission of the CIA
and invited them into your university to recruit you. So
then what happens.

Speaker 2 (01:35:13):
One of my best to that point, one of my
best favorite quotes was in a book about George Romney,
and somebody came up to him, I can't remember who
it was, and he said, even George, now, even if
the prophet were ask you to do something and you
thought it was wrong, it's okay because it's still right.

Speaker 3 (01:35:34):
Yeah, yeah, I think, well, I'll just go. I'll just
tell us. Like my stake president, the one that excommunicated me, said,
there are two reasons that I got the COVID shot.
One was I wanted to travel internationally, but the second
one was I just figured that if I did what
the prophet said, even if I ended up in a
wheelchair for the rest of my life or dad, I

(01:35:56):
would be blessed for doing what the prophit told us
to do. And like no, I would just I would
challenge anybody to show me where in the scriptures it
tells us to forfeit our agency in our irrational mind
to the teachings of a man who's demonstrably a liar
like I just I don't understand where people get that other.
Then here's the thing. My stake president is a convert

(01:36:19):
to the church when they when the church found him,
he was living in a mobile home, you know, down
by the river, kind of a thing like dirt poor.
Now he owns a huge house in you know, a
beautiful part of Tennessee. They built a second house behind
the first house that they call it roge but actually
has like rooms.

Speaker 2 (01:36:39):
It's another house.

Speaker 3 (01:36:40):
Yeah, it's okay house. Right, He's done extremely well for
himself and he's lived like the church has done amazing
things for him.

Speaker 2 (01:36:48):
Right, And why did they choose him? I look at
MK ultra programming. They choose people that are easily programmable
because of trauma. And why do they know your background
because you're a meeting with your bishop all the time.

Speaker 3 (01:37:01):
Sure, well, I mean, and this guy was a member
of Sigma Kai, right, Like he revealed that to me
when I wrote that letter to the general authorities, you know,
telling them, like, I'm really concerned about what I've found
about these men who make deathos, because how do you
make a death of and affiliate with an organization like
Sigma Kai and then go to a temple recommend interview
and claim that you're not affiliating or supporting a group

(01:37:22):
that has teachings or practices in the contrary to the
teachings and practices of the Church Jesus Christal Lottery Saints. Right.
But I guess my point is, like with my state president,
you get this guy who like the church, turned his
life around and like and he has a beautiful family,
and they've like he's been very successful temporarily. I think
he's grown spiritually. I don't think there's any question about that.

(01:37:43):
But like, why would you rock the boat if that
was your experience in the church, There's no reason to
do that.

Speaker 2 (01:37:50):
Well, especially if they did something where like you said,
humiliation or whatever, bonding all that stuff suure.

Speaker 3 (01:37:58):
But I mean, like, look when he joined and he
was not a member of the church. He joined Sigma
Kai when he was not a member, and so like
whatever Shane bonding went on there, Like I let go
of that really quickly because when he answered the waters
of baptism according to my like Mormon theology, like you
just don't, like, that's not a thne anymore, right, And
so but I guess the overall pointing here for me

(01:38:20):
is just simply this, like the church has had it
good for a very long time, and the members of
the church have had it good for a very long time.
And so unless you love truth more than comforts, there's
no reason to rock the boat inside of Mormonism anymore
at this point.

Speaker 2 (01:38:39):
What costs you everything? And then they and then they
use it to their advantage. Like even right now this
is happening over the Kirk situation, because what are they doing.
They're saying, look, we're being persecuted again, because Mormon persecution, persecution,
that's all they do. They never say, yeah, we screwed
that up, like pall.

Speaker 3 (01:38:58):
I mean, and to be clear, there was persecution right
after the Kirk situation. I mean, like to have your
church burned down is true persecution, right, see.

Speaker 2 (01:39:05):
But there was also counterfeiting happening, and sure it's a
whole rabbit hole, but you know, Joseph Smith was in
good and so was Brigham Young with a whole bunch
of alchemists, and they knew what they were doing, and
so that they were counterfeiting money.

Speaker 3 (01:39:18):
Sure, I mean, so the thing about it is they
just never recognize their part in the persecution. It's always
we're one hundred percent like innocence and people are mean
to us. But when you actually look at the history,
you realize, like not at all what happened, right, And
are we going to take our responsible Are we going
to take responsibility for our part in being persecuted or

(01:39:40):
are we just going to pretend to play victims again,
Like the Gospel of Jesus Christ never taught me to
be a victim ever, and so like I don't know
why my church wants to portray itself as a victim
all the time or not correct those who want to
play the victim all the time.

Speaker 2 (01:39:56):
Well, it's a grand perfection of exactly what we said
up even when the prophet's wrong, he's not wrong back
at that because then if we bring up something me
and you, we say this thing, well, we're just big meanies,
you know, and they still win.

Speaker 3 (01:40:11):
We're we're not peace makers, right, No, Yeah, I've always
I've always really wondered what Russell and Nelson meant by that,
because in order to make peace, the peace has to
be gone, like right, if there is peace already, then
you have to be Then you're a peacekeeper, right, not
a peace maker. But like you can trace this in

(01:40:32):
the scriptures where it says soon peace will be taken
from the earth, and then it says peace has been
taken from the earth, and then you get leaders of
the church saying, not only has peace been taken from
the earth, but it's more wicked than it's ever been.
So like, how do you make peace in a situation
where peace has been gone for so long? Is it
by being nice to everybody? Like I don't think, Like

(01:40:54):
it doesn't seem to be all that efficient. Like sometimes
you have to take a stand for the truth. It's
just the world.

Speaker 2 (01:41:01):
When there's children involved, and what you do or victims
in general that have been horribly abused, Like I'm with you,
Like the rest goes out the window at that point.
I'm sorry, Like you cannot say George is the nicest
guy ever. But wait, there shouldn't be a butt unless
it's something like he swears too much or but if

(01:41:23):
it is a crime against humanity, right, like real, like
you are harming other people and why are they doing that?
And I dare say, this is just my little thoughts
in my brain as I study really weird stuff sometimes
because I have to, and it's really uncomfortable. Okay, it's
sabatize ev right, Like you start seeing these things. Did

(01:41:45):
they align with these strange things? Is this where this
lds uh, you know Church of Satan came from? Why
are there still these weird you know, factions inside of it?
And of course they'll distance themselves and say, well that's
not us, no, no, no, And I get that. I
get that, But at the same time, at some point,

(01:42:07):
you know, you have to say you were trying to
create a perfect society. We know about their eugenics and
who ran that, Oh George e. Hyde, that's right, hide
the relation. I checked it, you know, and this isn't
a newspaper clipping, so that's part of that. And why

(01:42:29):
would they do that when we know a few things.
Number one, the Illuminati never went away. And people can
laugh at me all day long. But if you if
you want a really good podcast about it, okay, there's
a podcast called as Strange as It Seems and doctor
Richard Spence is on there. He is a professor of
history from Idaho, and he does an amazing, like hohold

(01:42:53):
two and a half hour breakdown on the Illuminati, and
he even says, I can't prove that it did anything
but hit, it's just not there. But it's it. It
didn't go away, you know. But originally they were going
to call it the perfectabilis like perfect the Billus, okay,

(01:43:15):
or the bees. And I'm sorry, but some of this,
like with the eugenics and with the perfection and with
this stuff and all these things that we talk about,
and these crimes against humanity with the wholes advertizedev movement,
is where I pull this in. Is there some people
that are trying to achieve it in this actual faction,

(01:43:37):
you know, with Mormonism by keeping their bloodlines pure and incest.
We know this. There's some that are keeping this by
trying to alter people by thought and you know, the
whole your blood is Jewish and that whole thing and
you know, being the best person you can and dedicating
all your times and talents and everything to the church. Right,

(01:44:00):
But there's some people, I dare say that are doing
it by the worst and most heinous crimes, which is
what Zabatai Zevi talks about. And it makes so much
more sense when you study him, which it's it's not
a good ride. I'm just going to warn you if
you go down that road. It's all about like the
most heinous things you could do that would piss God

(01:44:23):
off enough that he will come back because you've hurt everybody.
And I'm talking like they encourage abuse on babies starting
straight out.

Speaker 3 (01:44:31):
Of the womb.

Speaker 2 (01:44:33):
That is a whole nother level of diabolicism that I
can't even stomach. Like I can stomach a lot as
a nurse. Really, I'm a tough girl.

Speaker 3 (01:44:42):
Yeah, not that. Yeah, And against like why why would
any member of the church who has three cars in
the driveway in a boat, who has a job that
makes you know one hundred and fifty thousand and sixty
you know, like why would you know? Like you have
everything that you need, Like why did you ever force
yourself to look at the CD underbelly of humanity. But

(01:45:05):
what's really required of us in this life? Like, is
is it true that there is good and evil? And
if it is true there's good and evil, is it
enough to simply hang out in the comfortable? Which I
think is really debatable if the comfortable is even good? Right? Right? Like,
where where do you think the time may? Yeah, that's right.

(01:45:26):
Where do you think the adversary wants you hanging out?
If this life is really about good and evil and
overcoming evil and becoming good, Like, where's the best place
to have you? It's in the comfortable zone where you
don't want to look at what's going on around you, Like,
I mean, like, it was unbelievably shocking to me to
start talking to victims of satanic ritual abuse. To this day,

(01:45:47):
There's there's an interview that we the People did a
couple of weeks ago, Jason Preston and his wife Alexia,
and like, I couldn't even watch that, even after doing
this for years, I had to read the interview in
the transcript before I could listen to it because listening
to it it was just too much, just too much.
But if we're not willing to fight that battle while

(01:46:08):
we're here, what are we really doing here? Like, are
we going to get bonus points for having a boat
in the driveway? Is that really what God sent us
here to do? And I'm getting a little bit theological today,
which is kind of weird, but like, I guess it's
been a couple of years since I've been able to
give a talk in sacrament meeting, right, so, but like
what are we doing? And like all I can say
about that is like I was in the church for

(01:46:31):
forty five years and I constantly struggled because I just
felt like I was never close to Jesus Christ. The
minute that I stopped trying to be a Mormon and
I started helping abuse victims, the Lord entered my life. Yeah,
I don't know way that I just I could never
even imagine. I could never even conceptualize how the Lord

(01:46:51):
would be a part of my life simply by turning
away from all the things that I thought I was
supposed to be doing as a member of the Church
of Jesus Christ's Letterary Saints and instead focusing on the
one and trying to help them feel less crazy, trying
to help them find food and shelter, trying to do
like whatever I can to keep them alive in a
lot of cases, because a lot of these people are

(01:47:12):
just struggling to live. Some of them have made it
through that, but I like every victim of abuse I've
worked with is going to live with the scars of
that abuse for the rest of their life. So what
does the Lord want us do? Does he want us
out on the lake on Saturday, or does he want
us taking a little bit of time to help that
abuse victim try to put a piece back in their

(01:47:32):
life that helps them survive better the next week?

Speaker 2 (01:47:35):
Right, right, right? It's so underrated, which is the one thing.
And this will be my Thanksgiving episode, and I wanted
you to know that because I knew it would be
something really important. And though this may not seem uplifting,
it is because it refocuses us on something that Jesus

(01:47:57):
Christ himself told us that it was all all hung
on the cross, but what love one another? And we
just can't figure it out. And that's because there's too
many men. When I say men, I mean like people
over us right giving your check. As a man, I

(01:48:19):
don't like I don't like to blame it all on
the guys, the girls are in this man, and you
know I don't like that. They give you a list
to say, this is how you get close to God
when God's right here, and and if you do what
Jesus did and you go around loving your neighbor and
helping out people and actually get in the trenches, like
don't just write a check. I'm not saying go put

(01:48:41):
yourself in harms way, okay. I am saying go in
a group, go whatever whatever you need to do to
back that up. But as a mental health nurse, I
can tell you, like they need it. Sure, they need
to feel like they are loved and worthy and like
not They're not just some throwaway of society. That's not it.

Speaker 3 (01:49:06):
Sure work. I work in the dictionary recovery, and I
don't work directly with patients. But I was speaking to
a doctor just this week who works for us, and
he said exactly what you just said. He said, the
biggest indicator of whether a person will survive and thrive
is whether or not they feel loved by somebody during
their course of care, right, right, and so like, how

(01:49:26):
is that any different than the hospital known as the
Church of Jesus Christ of latter day Saints, Like if
I go to church and all I am is surrounded
by like a network of people who can help me
find a job, right, or a group of people who
can move me up into a position of bishop or
whatever it is that the church is for a lot
of people, Like what's the benefit there and what am

(01:49:48):
I really getting out of it? Versus if I can
go to church and find somebody who's struggling and give
them some hope, some ability to exercise faith in a
way that they have an exercise faith, some ability to
see a part of Jesus Christ that they didn't know
existed that they can rely upon in their time with me.
Because it's never about what I'm doing, right, It's always

(01:50:11):
about pointing them directly to Christ because that's where the
Selvathick power lies.

Speaker 2 (01:50:17):
Right, So like, well that's what we're called to do,
like we're really it's supposed to do that. We're not.
And I'm not saying writing checks is not good, okay,
but maybe you should know where your money's going.

Speaker 3 (01:50:29):
Well, you know, I just I don't. I don't understand
these people who think that God needs money to usher
in the Second Coming. I just don't. I don't understand that. Like,
I don't know how you could get further away from
understanding the nature of God than to believe that he
needs a trillion dollars in order to be able to
usher in the Second Coming. Like that doesn't make any
sense to me at all.

Speaker 2 (01:50:47):
It's supposed to go to help people, you know, And
if you really want to help people, then go help people.
Like I'm not saying that that that doesn't help them,
but you don't know where that money is going clearly
by the Endzleyan Peak scandal. So yeah, that's great. You
want your temple recommend and I get it, and you
want to pay your ten percent, but a lot of

(01:51:08):
people pay more than that, and a lot of people
give extras. So maybe you could take that and go
do it yourself, you know. I know for me as
a person that struggled with or help more times than
I can count on, more tragedy in my life than
I can really, I mean, it just seems like a
big fat lie if I start spewing out what it
really is, you know, because it's been a lot, and

(01:51:31):
most people have two or three things in their life
that they really have to overcome. But like my life
was that even just in one year. Sometimes like it's crazy,
but I can tell you when people came together for
me and gave me some money when I was deathly ill,
like deathly ill to pay my mortgage that month. It
meant everything to me. Everything, And it could have been groceries,

(01:51:54):
it could have been anything. It doesn't have to just
be some big thing, right like a mortgage. It meant
everything to me. And you know, the church could do that.
The church could have really stepped up over this whole
snap thing and everything. They didn't. They didn't.

Speaker 3 (01:52:12):
Yeah, and again I've never studied this, but it would
be really fascinating to find out where did this idea
come that you gather money at a local level, but
then it has to be sent to a centralized location
in order to be distributed. Why is why are congregations?

Speaker 2 (01:52:29):
You might want to study the Stanford situation. The bishop
over that they basically had to send somebody to go
try and get the money from him. I can't remember
his name, but he was like a leader. Yeah, and
then and he was like they just don't have it,
bro wow, And it was a lot of money. It
was like the whole Yeah, that's just one.

Speaker 3 (01:52:51):
So it's just such a strange situation to me that
the Church of Jesus Christ has become a huge bureaucracy.
I just cannot imagine Jesus Christ as the CEO of
a huge bureaucracy like my image of Christ. And I
may not be right about this. People are free to
argue with me about this, because as much as I
love Jesus Christ, and as much as I feel like
he's become a part of my life, I still have

(01:53:12):
a lot to learn about him. But I cannot like
everything I know about Jesus Christ tells me that he
wants me to learn how to use my money to
bless the liize of other people, not to write a
check to an organization that's going to pass it along
to Salt Lake City so that they can distribute it
the way that they see fit. How does that benefit
me as a child of God in any way, shape
or form. And I'm not telling people they shouldn't pay

(01:53:35):
their tiding, Please don't misunderstand me. What I'm saying is
is like, from a high level, how did we get
to this point where we've disenfranchised and disempowered the average
member of the church to become charitable by simply telling
them that charity is writing a check to an organization
that passes the money onto an organization that takes that

(01:53:55):
money and hides it in show companies and invests it
with companies that are committed to perpetual war.

Speaker 2 (01:54:02):
Right, yeah, how did that?

Speaker 3 (01:54:04):
How did that happen? And why are we not asking
that question? And accountability?

Speaker 2 (01:54:10):
Yeah, with your extra money, if you still want to
do what you're supposed to do, right, if if you
could just identify the people when it says love your neighbor,
that's because you're not just supposed to bless you and
your family and your kids, and that's all. Everybody loves
their family. That's easy, Okay, that is simple most of
the time. I know some people have challenging families. I'm

(01:54:32):
probably somebody's challenging family, but and that's okay with me whatever.
But I'm just saying, like, you can identify people around
you that may need it, could even be not money.
Your kids' is hand me downs instead of it going
to the di And they were actually caught in a
big scandal throwing stuff in a big landfill and covering

(01:54:52):
it up because they had too much and their prices
are crazy. Now, maybe you could just go ask your
neighbors in a not you know, demeaning way. Hey, I
just noticed you have a kid that's a little bit
younger than mine. I just have all these clothes. Would
you like him? You know they can always say no.

Speaker 3 (01:55:09):
Well, but do you know what the greatest need is,
in my opinion out there is your time and your attention. Yes.
The number of lonely people who feel misunderstood by the
world is mind boggling. If I could make if I
could turn it into a business, I'd probably be a
trillionaire as fast as you can snap your fingers, because
the number of lonely people who just want to be

(01:55:31):
heard and not judged is tremendous and just it just
so happens that a lot of those people are abuse victims.

Speaker 2 (01:55:39):
Because people find them difficult because they are struggling and
you know, your time, Like, honestly, how many people talk
to their neighbor anymore?

Speaker 3 (01:55:49):
I have a.

Speaker 2 (01:55:51):
Really different neighbor. Okay, he's a little bit different, and
he loves to talk to my husband, and sometimes my
husband is like, and he likes him and everything, but
sometimes it's like the wrong time, right, like he's trying
to get somewhere or whatever. And I looked at him
one day and I said, just remember, I don't think
he has very many people to talk to.

Speaker 3 (01:56:12):
Sure, well, I mean, and I can just testify to this.
I mean, like, if it's going to be the Thanksgiving
episode like it is, I had my entire community ripped
out from underneath me, and one of the things that
kept me alive during that was a very small handful

(01:56:32):
of people who were there to listen and not judge. Right, So, like,
I know this from both sides of the equation, Like
I know how critical it is to find those people
who feel lonely and misunderstood, and like, look, like this
may not be all that popular, but it's like it's
not always easy to believe the stories that you hear

(01:56:53):
when you're dealing with victims of satanic ritual abuse. Like
some of those stories are are incredibly difficult, But does
it matter if we believe them, if we can just
sit and hold space for them to tell their story
and let them know, like, look, whatever happened here clearly
had a profound influence on your life. And while we

(01:57:15):
can't prove because I'm all about proving things right. And
that's why it's hard for me to get involved in
sorry cases, because you can almost never prove anything. But like,
in the end, like, isn't it enough to just sit
and give a person space to tell their story in
a way that they know that you're not going to
make fun of them at the end of it or
question their sanity because of what they're talking. Like, I

(01:57:36):
don't know whether the abuse happens sometimes, but what I
do know is that whatever happened to them led to
some incredibly difficult circumstances in their life, and I just
want to help them figure out how to survive that.

Speaker 2 (01:57:50):
Right And if there's room at your table, Like I
can't can't how many times I've had strangers at my table,
like safe strangers, but strangers nonetheless, because I've worked in
old folks homes and I've worked in places where I'm like, oh,
I know this person doesn't have a family anymore, and
I would get special permission and bring them home, and
you know, and my kids are always like, Mom, you're

(01:58:11):
just so crazy, Like I don't know, you know, And
they're not in that same space or even if you're
just talking to them at the grocery store if somebody
comes up to you and starts just telling you everything.
Because some of us have that happen a lot. I
am one of those people. Don't don't cut it and
just be like, Okay, that's nice, like by like or
I gotta go give them a few Like you don't

(01:58:34):
have to stay there all day, but you could give them,
you know, some grace and some time because obviously they
felt safe with you.

Speaker 3 (01:58:41):
Yeah, you know, yeah, I mean it's uh and I
mean again, just to go back to sort of the
theme of what we've been talking to, just how did
we get here? And like I just I asked myself,
how did we get to a place where the leaders
of the church care more about the pasture and the
barn and the tools that they're using and the money
that they make from whatever it is that they're doing. Like,

(01:59:05):
how did we get to a place where they care
more about that than whether they're losing the sheep? Like
I just don't understand, like how losing sheep became a
cost of doing business versus a tragedy to be averted
at all costs, right, And like I work with these
abuse victims and I hear these stories about how the

(01:59:25):
church just cut them loose, and I just can't. I
just can't understand how he got to that point where
the barn became more important than the sheep just.

Speaker 2 (01:59:34):
To look good.

Speaker 3 (01:59:36):
Yeah, it's well, it's the brand, right, that's I mean,
like Jacob, I can't remember his last name, but I
did an interview with him this week.

Speaker 2 (01:59:44):
And he asked, Hampton, is it Hanson?

Speaker 3 (01:59:46):
No, No, that's another guy that I did a debate
for a long time ago.

Speaker 2 (01:59:51):
No.

Speaker 3 (01:59:51):
But and I think I may have forgotten now, But yeah,
I think I think it dropped out of my mind
what I was going to say. But yeah, I just don't.
I just don't know. And again, like, I'm not I'm
not here to say that I'm right about all this,
but I but the questions are real. I'm not like
making it up. I'm not pretending to be concerned. Like,

(02:00:11):
these are things that are at the root of my
soul and I would give anything to be able to
have these conversations inside the body of the church. But
I've been deemed unworthy of having these conversations. And I
and again like, I just don't understand how we got there.
How do we get to a place where people who
are asking sincere questions from the deepest parts of their
soul become anathema to the mission of a church. Like

(02:00:34):
what else is a church for if it's not there
to answer.

Speaker 2 (02:00:36):
Our questions or protect those that need it, right, Like,
that's weird, that's weird.

Speaker 3 (02:00:43):
Mormon meeting houses should be the safest place on earth
with the resources that the Church of Jesus Christ is
the better day Saints house.

Speaker 2 (02:00:50):
Yeah, it could be, you know, a lot more. They
have so many beautiful buildings, and I get that there's
like a whole situation if you have to watch people
and whatever, but it's cold, like there's things you can do.
And these other churches here did it, you know, And
one of them is closing soon and it's sad to

(02:01:11):
me and it's not LDS church and they'll just let
them come in. And so then there was a law
against like loitering and something, so they called it all
night movie night, you know what I mean. Like there's
ways around it, but you'll never see that for an
LDS church.

Speaker 3 (02:01:24):
Sure well, And look and if the LDS church doesn't
want to open themselves up for liability to let people
into their buildings, during the week. Why don't they take
some of their money and give it to these churches
who have soup kitchens, who allow people to come in
on cold nights, And like, why does that church have
to shut down if the church has hundreds of billions
of dollars Anyway, these are all like, look, oh, I

(02:01:48):
understand in a sense like that being a leader in
the church has to be one of the hardest jobs
on the face of this earth. And I have an
immense amount of respect for the people who are willing
to step up and try to do that. And it's
easy to be an armchair quarterback. And I'm sure that
that's what a lot of people, you know, think, is
that we're being armchair quarterbacks. And I can understand that,

(02:02:11):
and I think it's actually a pretty valid criticism. On
the flip side of that, like you can't you can't
pooh pooh legitimate questions just because they make you uncomfortable.
You can't turn your back on people who are wondering
why there's immoral and ethic collennial legal behavior happening at

(02:02:32):
the highest levels of an organization and simply say, don't
worry about it. Just follow that man, no matter where
he leads you, because sometimes profits lead people off the
edges of cliffs, like the scriptures like Sherry do maybe
right that they can see around corners, but sometimes they
have a hard time seeing the next step in front
of them. Like, this isn't like undoctrinal stuff that we're

(02:02:55):
talking about. So how did we get to a point
where we believe that we should follow the profit no
matter where he leads us? Like that's a really dangerous belief. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:03:07):
Yeah, it's just cognitive dissonance to the maximum. And for
people out there that are struggling, I always like to
say this, since we are getting closer to rapping here
is for anybody that thinks their life is not so significant.
I don't care who you are, or who you don't

(02:03:28):
think you have or anything. Every person I've ever seen
that isn't here anymore has affected at least ten people.
And it goes on and on and on, and people
don't really realize how very important they are, how special
they are. Even if you're estranged from your family, even
if you're a strange, it doesn't matter. And that pain, right,

(02:03:51):
it just amplifies and gets passed down, usually to the children.
This is what I see and I can speak from
experience because like my brother died of an accidental overdose.
His daughter found him. She was twelve. Obviously she's had
massive issues from that. But then she went to live

(02:04:12):
with her mom, who she didn't know really because she
was just never around her that much, and clear across
the country. Her mom was so depressed over that whole
situation she actually took her life. And those kids are
now double traumatized, completely not okay, okay, And then it
went on and on from there. My mom will never

(02:04:34):
be okay. I mean, she loves me and I love her,
but I'm not her son. Okay, It doesn't take it away.
And you know, same for my uncle. My uncle had
an accidental gun is situation. It's a weird story, but
his children and then they became drug addicts and then
it's gone on to their children, and same thing for

(02:04:55):
my cousin, he took his life. I mean it's been
literally I'm telling you, like our life, I've have been
nothing but a chaos situation. And I don't know if
it's just like my family is. I don't know why
so many, but I can tell you this, you mean
more than you think, and it will matter more than

(02:05:16):
you know, because there is at least at least three
people in your life that really probably know you, even
if it's the old you, and they are going to
be devastated. And so I want to put that out
there so that if people are like, this is hopeless,
and you know, I just can't try harder one more day,

(02:05:39):
just one more day at a time, please go for help.
Look in your local area. There's usually always a suicide hotline,
you know. I just want to put that out there,
and there are places that will help you because I
can tell you this, like I take care of addicts.
I take care of people that are impatient, you know,
mental facility, and I've seen them come back again, even

(02:06:01):
upwards of eight times. But then I've seen them succeed
and it's it's amazing to go on and have very
fulfilled lives where they thought they were going to be nothing,
you know, ever, and they come back and they are
so yeah. I just don't want people to feel like
they're not important because you are, and just because you

(02:06:24):
didn't measure up to you know, Molly Mormon next door,
who does everything right, you have no clue what's going
on in her house. I promise you. So you know,
I don't know if you want to leave any words
of wisdom there, but I just don't want to leave it,
you know, empty for people struggling.

Speaker 3 (02:06:42):
Yeah, no, I mean, look, that's it's pretty hard to talk, Heidi.
I don't I guess again, if this is going to
be the Thanksgiving episode, I think the only thing I
want to leave people with is there's always something to
be grateful for. And having lived through some really horrific things,
like you said, like and being in places where I
wasn't sure if there was anything to be grateful for, Like,

(02:07:05):
I just want to leave a testimony that, like, there
is always something to be grateful for. And so if
you do find yourself in that place, you know you've
got to You've got to find that one thing to
get you through the next minute, the next ten minutes,
the next hour, the next day, the next month. But like,

(02:07:29):
there's always that thing that you can find, and I
just I hope that if you can't find it, you'll
find somebody to reach out to to help you find it,
because sometimes it's not easy to see that thing alone.
Sometimes you need another set of eyes to help you
understand what that thing to be grateful for is so
you know, I am personally so grateful for all the

(02:07:51):
people who have supported me in this work as LBS abuse.
I never dreamed that it would turn into what it's
turned into. And all these victims who've trusted me with
their stories, and all the people who send their research
to me and allow me to publish it, and those
who just show up on Twitter and support I just
want to express my gratitude today for them, because it's

(02:08:11):
been a life changing journey for me and it wouldn't
have happened without all of you. So thank you so
much for having me on today, and thanks to everybody
who supports the work. I really appreciate it, and I
love you guys so amazing.

Speaker 2 (02:08:25):
Well you're one of the top in my book, and
you know you bring facts, but you're also still really
loving and the fact that you know you still really believe,
and though I don't believe that, we both believe in God,
and that's what matters to me. Like I don't really
care what people believe, whether they want to stay in

(02:08:46):
or out. I just think the church needs to get honest.
Let's cut it out. That needs to change. And really,
if you're a church. You need to start helping people
like you're supposed to do, because if I have to
do the shame on you, then shame on. You shouldn't
care about having all that money. You should care about
all the people you've helped and that that's really what matters.

(02:09:06):
Or you're going to have a lot bigger to answer
to than me.

Speaker 3 (02:09:10):
So yep, yeah, yeah, that's right.

Speaker 2 (02:09:13):
So let people know where to find you one more time.

Speaker 3 (02:09:16):
It's very simple. I only spend time on X these days,
and my handle is at LDS abuse, and yeah, I
spent probably too much time there, but I love hearing
from everybody, So if you want to come, say hi
and offer your thoughts. I try to respond to everybody,
although that's getting a little bit hard these days because
I have a little bit more attention than I really
want and so but I will do my best. I

(02:09:38):
will do my best to respond to you.

Speaker 2 (02:09:40):
So that's because you're great. So I appreciate you once again.
And I will put that link in here in that
other show about the Beverly Bruff Campbell piece, and I'm
going to re release that too. It'll probably be either
right before or right after this episode. So it's like
hought together because really you need to look at this work.
Like often times Justin comes out and speaks about, you know,

(02:10:02):
the abuse part because that's his focus, but the things
he knows about, the conspiracy part, Chef's kiss, so way
to get Justin.

Speaker 3 (02:10:12):
Thank you so much. Thanks for having me.

Speaker 2 (02:10:14):
I really appree, of course, and we made it through
the whole thing.

Speaker 3 (02:10:17):
I know it's a beautiful thing.

Speaker 2 (02:10:19):
It's a beautiful it's a beautiful thing. Name was crazy.
Thanks again. We'll see you the next one.

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