240. A Satanic Church? What Is the Pace Memo???

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I am awake, are you. I wonder how many miles
I've fallen. It seems I'll get to the center of
the earth. Curious, isn't it? And really nothing's quite impossible.
Let's go now to our new episode of The Unfiltered
Rise with Me height E Love. Hello everyone, and welcome

(00:22):
to another episode of the Unfiltered Rise with Me Heidi Love.
And today I have with me Justin Riggs. He does
ldsabuse dot Com and he is quite involved in bringing
out some really good things to expose. He's going to
talk more about this, Justin, will you first let people
know where to find you and kind of how you
fell down this mess.

Speaker 2 (00:41):
It's a mess, It's a pass That's how I would
describe it too. Yeah, yeah, So you know my name
is Justin Riggs, and I started researching on the topic
of abuse inside of the LDS Church after serving as
a ward clerk and observing how different leaders of the
church respond to abuse cases. As really odd to me

(01:04):
because these men who I loved and served with and
knew as really good men, all of a sudden behaved
very strangely when it came to cases of abuse. And
so I started a website called lbsabuse dot info and
started researching sort of all the policies and procedures as

(01:24):
it relates to abuse in the church. But very quickly
found myself over my head because as I started doing
the research, came across a document where the and I'll
show you guys this document today where the leaders of
the church endorsed the CIA in nineteen eighty four, and

(01:44):
it just kind of evolves from there. And it's been
just sort of a wild ride of trying to understand
how we got to where we are instead of these
two these two organizations really and I think it's really
important people to understand that there is the Church of
Jesus Christ of Lotteritay Saints, that is the church that

(02:05):
most of us think about and that you and I
grew up in, right, But then there's also another organization
called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints,
which is a corporation based out of Utah, And these
are both legal entities that just happen to have the
same name. And so yeah, so a big part of
that journey has been I spun up a Twitter account

(02:27):
at LDS abuse where everybody can go and take a
look and I do most of my work off of
that account, and then every once in a while I'll
pop over and write a blog article or we have
a whole library of documents related to church abuse cases
and the church's involvement with the Central Intelligence Agency and
other like the FBI and that kind of stuff. And

(02:49):
so I think.

Speaker 1 (02:51):
Your work is hugely important because when you hear these things,
as we talked off camera right before we started, people
can't fathom this because it seems insane, honestly, and so
the docs are huge because like we can't make it.
I mean, we didn't make it up, Like, yeah, what
it is?

Speaker 2 (03:11):
You know, Yeah, it's a good point. Look, I mean
that's how I got stucked into it, is I was
I was on forums and talking to people, and I
was hearing all of these insane stories about abuse and
it it literally sounded insane to me. And so I
just happened to have a background in research and data analysis,
and I said, look, if you can bring me even
like one document to start with, then I'm happy to

(03:33):
look into it. And all of a sudden, I had
document after document after document after document. So I appreciate
you pointing that out, because I do think. I mean,
there are a lot of people who are you know,
quote unquote anti Mormon, and they spend all of their
time talking about doctrines and things that can't be documented necessarily.
But in this case, everything that I publish is all

(03:56):
based on documents in yearbooks from the University of Utah
or the CIA reading room or other FOIA requests you know,
that have been made and that kind of a thing,
and so it's all, you know, it's all based on documentation,
and people could certainly choose to do whatever they want
to with the information. I don't like, I don't really
have a dog in that fight. I I sincerely, I'm

(04:17):
still sort of warming at heart, even though I was
excommunicated from the church, and I sincerely believe in everybody's
ability to take information and make choices about who they
affiliate with and support and sustain. What I no longer
am willing to do is allow people to pretend like
the documents don't exist and that they don't need to
be discussed, because I think that they do. Is probably

(04:38):
one of, if not the most important documents in modern
church history as it relates to this decision of whom
do we affiliate support you know, affiliate with support and sustain.
So I'm really excited for you know, to talk to
you today about kays.

Speaker 1 (04:51):
I am so glad you did because I think that oftentimes,
like you said, people will come at me like they
probably do you from what you just said and say
anti mormonis, or they'll start arguing with me about plgamy
things I do not care about. I do not care.
I do not care if people enter into things willingly.
I care when it becomes children, that's different, fully different.

(05:15):
But if people were doing things, if people were peopling
after eighteen, will bless you and follow on your way.
But like it just becomes an issue for people that
are being held down and abused, and that can possibly
happen with grooming even after eighteen, which is you know
why we need to talk about it, And I like,
you have such a hard time because I don't hate

(05:39):
church members. They're my family. We just talked about this.
We're probably family. Like it's all such an interconnected loop
of people that I'm like, it's a small little group
and we are all related, you know, really probably. I
just was joking with him before we came on. I'm like,
we're probably related. Look at us, you could probably be
my like you know, oh like in looks wise, like

(06:02):
you have very similar coloring to me and stuff. And
I'm like, you can see a Mormon. You can kind
of spot a Mormon that has real Mormon lineage in
a way, And it's an odd thing to have to
be at odds with when it is a part of
like literally who who this is? Before?

Speaker 2 (06:19):
Yeah, So I still say, I mean nobody out there
views it this way, but I still I still view
myself largely as a cultural and believing in a lot
of Mormonism what I was taught growing up. The Like
you know, there's a big movement right now in well
in the corporation to not advocate towards the church, right

(06:40):
You've got Auqmand Corbett out there giving this talk, And
I like to say, like, I'm not. I don't really
view myself as somebody who's advocating towards the church. Like
I love the church because the church is the people
I grew up with, you who bake cookies and help
people move and be there when a widow's husband dies,
and like I love that. I am certainly kind of

(07:02):
at war with the corporation at this point, and in
this case, this corporation is only led by one man
because that's the way that they set it up, but
there's a whole host of people around him that really,
you know, conflate the corporation with the church, and I
think it's caused a ton of problems personally and so like.
And that's that's the group that I'm really trying to

(07:25):
hold to account in any way that I can, because
I don't like the fact that they have muddied the
waters here would I would like the people in the
church to be able to just do the church thing
without having the interference of the corporation, including in matters
like excommunication and those kinds of things.

Speaker 1 (07:41):
So yeah, it's an unort thing because we still have
to on some level. Like for other people that can
watch this and say, well, I mean Mormons are crazy
and they're cold, Okay, that's fine, you can say that.
I mean, I believe a lot of stuff that is
cold ish around this whole thing, and I've said it's
cult before. But also you have to understand they envelope

(08:03):
you with love in the middle. The middle people that
don't know crap, they're just people and they just want
to go to heaven and and that, and honestly, like
they are doing more than most people ever would in
the righteous path of like trying to do what's quote
unquote right. They spend half their lives devoted to it,
as did I and literally down to our underwear, willing

(08:26):
to conform in every single way, right, like really, and
it's a dramatic, hurtful thing to even go where we
go because that exposure is hard, like you said, you know,
like I've gotta take a minute to digest any more
of this because the stuff I know is super freaking dark,

(08:46):
you know, and none of us want to relate that
to our grandma, Like we have a that fight, you know,
we do.

Speaker 2 (08:56):
Yeah, yeah, And I think I mean sort of sort
of transitions into day topic. I think this is really
the tip of the iceberg in terms of that darkness,
because you know, what we're talking about today is this
what they call the pace memo, and it's it's something
that your grandma probably never even knew about, even though
the LDS Church was certainly aware of the topic of
ritual abuse inside of the church, and yet they occulted

(09:19):
it and they papered over it, and they tried to
do everything they could to use public relations to make
sure that your grandma and my grandma and your mom
and dad and my mom and dad never learned about it.
But I think what we're going to do today is
talk not just about the memo, but we're also going
to talk about the historical context and why this particular
memo and everything that was going on around it, particularly

(09:39):
in wrestling on Nelson's life. It's really pretty deeply troubling
what happened here, I think. And so you know, whenever
you're ready.

Speaker 1 (09:49):
Add to the stage.

Speaker 2 (09:50):
Yeah, we can go ahead and add the timeline to
the stage and we can just get going on it
if you want.

Speaker 1 (09:55):
There we are.

Speaker 2 (09:56):
Yeah, it's really critical that anybody studying the topic, and
especially people who are in the church, still understand the
relationship between the Church of Jesus Christ, the Latter day Saints,
and the Central Intelligence Agency. And you know, I titled
this you know, we Heart Gaddie and Robbers because I've
done some fairly extensive research into the mission of the

(10:17):
Central Intelligence Agency and what I can say is that
none of it really lines up with the mission of
the Church of Jesus Christ. Of Patter Day Saints, at
least on the surface level. But it is a historical
reality that in February of nineteen eighty four, during Jeffrey R.
Hollands administration, when he was president of that university, that

(10:39):
office of personnel from the Central Intelligence Agency traveled to
Brigham Young University to recruit and meet with senior officials
of the Mormon Church to discuss agency recruitment of church members.
The church indicated its endorsement of the agency's mission and
its elders plan to meet and address any concerns about
our recruiting effort. And it's possible undercutting of the church's image.

(11:04):
So I'm far less worried about the upper part of
this than I am the lower part. But what people
really need to understand is that the Central Intelligence Agency,
as far as I can tell, it's about the closest
thing to the Gadgett and Robbers that we have in America.
And for the leaders of the church to understand that
their involvement with that agency was going to possibly undercut

(11:25):
the church's image, but to agree to endorse that mission
and allow church members to serve in that organization, I
think is something that people really really need to look
at very carefully, and I think it's going to become
more clear why I believe that here in just a second,
as I show you what happened with the pace. Now,

(11:49):
So in February nineteen eighty four, they endorse the mission
of the CIA, and then in nineteen eighty five, the
church or the corporation. I'm going to try to even
I fall into this of calling things that the corporation
has done, I say the Church did it. I'm going
to try to do my best to keep those seeds separately.

(12:10):
But so the corporation got this great idea to create
what they call a clipping service. Now, the important thing
for people to understand about that is that when the
Central Intelligence Agency was started, and when Neil A. Maxwell
worked for the Central Intelligence Agency, it was just a
clipping service. That's really what they were doing. So CIA

(12:32):
agents would get news from all over the world and
they would clip out the newspaper articles and then they
would present it to whoever needed they felt needed to
see it in order to help protect the nation. But
immediately as soon as the Church endorses the mission of
the CIA, all of a sudden they get an idea
to have a clipping service inside of the church, and

(12:55):
they call that clipping service is the Strengthening Church Members commit,
which it's just really I don't even know what they like.
It's like, it's very Orrellian right to call a committee
to strengthening church members committee when the whole purpose of
the committee is to spy on church members. And that's

(13:17):
really what it was. And so this is actually from
fair LDS. It says, although a clipping service probably made
sense back in nineteen eighty five in the Internet ritual,
that the president seems somewhat anachronistic. Any we find any
information more quickly than it could have been clipped from
newspapers in nineteen eighty five. And I find that's sort

(13:37):
of an interesting thing for fair number to say, because
that's really the problem that the church has run into
in the last ten years or so, is that they
no longer control the flow of information like they have
for so long, and this sort of clipping service idea,
it just doesn't work as well as it used to.
And this way of gathering intelligence and spying on church members,

(14:00):
it's just not just not cutting it anymore, because people
can find information a lot faster than the strengthen me
to church members committee can can pull down an article
and notify a priestoo leader that there's somebody in their
ward that's problematic, which they do.

Speaker 1 (14:14):
Yeah, they're in trouble now.

Speaker 2 (14:18):
And so I mean, so this Strengthening Church Members Committee
still exists, and they actually hire the corporation hires people
to monitor social media and if you ask for your
your like file or portfolio over whatever, they won't give
it to you. But the church continues to spy on
their members quite often. And so I've asked for mine,

(14:42):
I've called up to the church office building and asked
for my record, and they won't give it to me.
And I've asked through my state president to get it
and they won't release that information. But we know that
the Strengthening Church commember Strengthening Church Members committee excuse me,
still exists to this day, and we.

Speaker 1 (15:01):
Don't find anything that says they can do that. So
that's highly Yeah.

Speaker 2 (15:06):
There's definitely, I mean, there's definitely a whole conversation around that,
Like I would imagine Heidi and I don't know this.
I've thought about it, but I don't know the answer
here from a documentary standpoint, But You have to remember,
everybody gets an LDS church account in the church, and
everybody has a church membership ID, and we all do
that thing that we all do whenever we sign up
for a new service, where we have terms and conditions

(15:28):
and we go click the box and we say I
accept the terms and conditions. Right, So you say that
we haven't agreed to this, I would say that perhaps
we all have, we just don't know it. And maybe
it's not what I would call informed consent, but we
may have consented by checking a box when we sign
up for an LDS account potentially, right, gotcha? Now? So yeah,

(15:52):
and we can talk a little bit more, and I
think down here a little bit further in the position,
I'm actually going to talk a little bit more about
their justification for this, the Strengthening the Church Members Committe,
because the one thing that's really important to remember is
that in nineteen eighty five, nobody knows that the Strengthening
the Church Members Committee has been started. It's a secret
committee that is being spun up we think by Gordon

(16:18):
Hinckley is really the person who put together sort of
the intelligence and propaganda arms of the church. When Ezertaff
Benson was incapacitated but still serving as profit. And so
while the date is nineteen eighty five, nobody knows in
nineteen eighty five that this exists. And there's a whole
bunch of shadow government that gets set up inside of

(16:38):
the church office building that's outside of normal church governance
and certainly not done by revelation, but is put into place.
And one of those things is this. But everybody needs
to keep in mind that at this point nobody knows
that the Strengthening the Church Member Committee exists. People don't
know until the PACE Memo comes out, and I'll talk
about that here in a little bit, right, So.

Speaker 1 (17:03):
Also in nineteen eighty five, I think it's really important
for people to understand if the Church d D faces
a book like says do not read this, do not
do that, there was no other way to get around it.
And it's called anti Mormon propaganda, and you would not
do that as a faithful member of the church. So
it was pretty absolutely you know, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (17:24):
This is a time when the church is very much
interested in controlling the flow of information. They have correlation
committees where they're stripping out in whitewashing history and only
presenting what they want to have seen. You have boy
K Packer talking about how not all truth is useful
kind of a thing that may not be a direct hope,
but it's along those lines. And they're very, very concerned

(17:45):
about making sure that they control the flow of information
to members, And now that they can't control that flow
of information, it's pretty obvious why they wanted to control
that flow of information because the actual history behind Mormonism
is deeply troubling, right. I mean, it doesn't mean that
the Gospel of Jesus Christ isn't true necessarily logically right,

(18:05):
But like, I can see why they would want to
control the information because it's hard. Well, I think they
felt like it would be hard for people to build
faith inside of an information rich environment, and I just
tended to disagree with that. I've always felt like the
best way to to grow faith is to present people

(18:25):
with as much intelligence and information as possible and then
let them choose what pieces of that are good and
right and move forward. But this group of leaders clearly
disagreed with that, and they had a pretty openly stated
policy that they didn't want people examining certain information, including.

Speaker 1 (18:43):
I would gather to state the things that I've placed
in the background, it was part of the problem.

Speaker 2 (18:51):
Yeah, I would agree. So so something really important about
the past meal that I don't think pretty much any
ready understands is putting it inside of its historical context.
So we haven't gotten to the pace memo yet, but
it's really important to understand that in nineteen eighty six,
Russell and Nelson's daughter was implicated in a pedophile ring

(19:13):
in Bountiful, Utah. And what happens in this story is
really disheartening and really disingenious when you can sort of
put everything together on the same like in one presentation,
like we're going to do today. But to start, I
just want everybody to understand that there is a signed
declaration in a court case, and the declaration is by

(19:35):
a man named David Hardy, and David Hardy has a
brother that his name is Ralph W. Hardy Jr. And
Ralph Hardy Jr. Is a Washington or was a Washington
d c. Lawyer who was serving on many of these
sort of like outside the normal governance committees that the
church was spinning up. And so in addition to dis

(19:58):
Ferrantmy the Church Members Committee, there was also of what
was called the Special Affairs Committee. And the Special Affairs Committee,
we know didn't keep any agendas and they never took
notes of anything that they met. The reason we know
that by the name of Beverly Bruff Campbell wrote about
it in her memoirs which are online on archive dot org.
And so what we know about the Special Affairs Committee

(20:18):
is that their job was to take things that we're
going to would hurt the church's image or their brand
what I call LDS Inc's brand, and the Special Affairs
Committee would run interference with media or government or law
enforcements and make sure that things that would hurt the
church's brand never made it to the light of day,
including the fact that Brenda and Dick Miles. So Brenda

(20:40):
Miles is Russell and Nelson's daughter, but Brenda and Dick
Miles were implicated in a pedophile named Bountiful, Utah in
nineteen eighty six. And we have a sworn declaration that
was that was sworn out under the penalty of perjury,
and I'm just going to read a little piece of
that to everybody. So this is David Eckles Hardy who

(21:00):
who signed this, and he says in the spring of
nineteen eighty six, someone from my office told me that
Dick Miles had been implicated in a pedophileering in Bountiful, Utah.
At the time, I didn't want to believe it. I
checked the local newspapers and found no coverage of the allegations.
About two to three days later, I received a call
from an attorney in Washington, d c. With whom I

(21:20):
was very familiar. That would be his brother. He asked
me if I could do him a favor relating to
a very sensitive subject involving one of the Apostles. I obliged.
This attorney asked if I would receive a letter via
fax and hand deliver it to Apostle Russell M. Nelson
at the church office building, that Elder Nelson would be

(21:41):
waiting for it. When the facts came through, I read
it curious of the contents, I recall the opening paragraph saying,
Dear Elder Nelson, I am so sorry this tragedy has
befallen your family. This needs to be kept out of
the public eye. I remember how I mean. My interests
piqued because of the allegations I heard days earlier about

(22:04):
Dick Miles. While I do not recall the specifics of
the rest of approximately four page letter. I do recall
the clear intent and sense of the letter, which was
to protect the good name of the church and that
of Elder Nelson by making sure that these allegations against
Dick and Branda Miles were kept quiet. Okay, so one

(22:27):
thing I want people to notice here is that there
was no mention of anything about Satanic ritual abuse in
the allegations against Dick and Branda Miles. And for those
who are interested, they can go to eldsabuse dot infoslash
resources and read all the court documents from a twenty
thousand and eight excuse me, a twenty eighteen court case

(22:49):
that talks about this. And it's really important that people
recognize that in the case of Dick and Brenda Miles
and a diagnosed pedophile by the name of Bill Carsonson,
who are going to spend a little bit of time
talking about today, this was a group in Bountiful, Utah
that were allegedly abusing children, but nobody ever said anything
about it being Satanic ritual abuse until much much later,

(23:10):
when the church uses Satanic panic to cover up the
abuse that Dick and Branda Miles and Bill Carstenson were
engaging in Okay, So I'm going to leave that there
for right now, and we'll talk more about why that's important.
But just everybody needs to recognize that in nineteen eighty six,
even though Satanic panic is a thing that's going on
in the nation, nothing about Bill Carstensen or Dick and

(23:33):
Brenda Miles had anything to do with Satanic panic. The
closest thing to that is that in the court documents
it mentions that Dick Miles killed a cat in front
of the children and told them, if you tell anybody
what we're doing, I'll kill you the same way that
I killed this cat, which certainly is disturbing, but doesn't
really have anything to do with Satanism or worshiping Satan, right.

Speaker 1 (23:56):
Scare tactic.

Speaker 2 (23:58):
It's a scare tactic, You got it, Okay. Another thing
in terms of like the historical context of what's going
on around this time is that we didn't learn until
much much later in the last few years. But at
the same time, from nineteen eighty seven to nineteen ninety three,
there was another group of Latter day Saints who were
allegedly abusing children, and this group includes David Hamblin and

(24:20):
a man by the name of Gordon Bowen, and like
Joe Benyon, and a whole host of prominent church families
that were allegedly abusing children in what the victim statements
called the LDS Church of Satan. And it just so
happens that this was happening right during this time period
of nineteen eighty seven to nineteen ninety three. So this

(24:44):
group is really important, not so much because of David Hamblin,
but because of Gordon Bowen. So for anybody who's interested,
you can go on the YouTube and you can just
look up Lynn Packer, Gordon Bowen, and you will find
out that there have been like probably I mean I

(25:04):
know of at least eighteen top LDS leaders who have
used Gordon Bowen as an advisor over the last forty years.
But the biggest one that we know about is m
Russell Ballard, who is using Gordon Bowen as a public
relations and advertising advisor in the church and they were

(25:25):
paying him millions of dollars for the last forty years,
despite the fact that he has multiple court cases in
which it's alleged that he was abusing children. And so
we could do a whole show on Gordon Bowen and
his relationship with the apostles and prophets of the Church
of Jesus Christ Watter day Saints. But for today, I
just want to point out that, as it relates to

(25:45):
the Pace memo, right during the period when the LDS
Church is looking into ritual abuse in the church, they're
also doing business with a person who's listing court documents
as being a part of a ritual abuse ring. Okay,
to sort of give a larger context Satanic panic, right,

(26:07):
which is I personally believe is something that the CIA
sort of put out into the common lexicon for people
because they wanted to turn it into a conspiracy theory.
But this is the time period of Satanic panic, right,
And what I want to point out to people is
that the Ideas Church was definitely looking at this, but
it wasn't just the LDS Church. This was a nationwide thing.

(26:30):
And my point is simply this, like criminal justice departments
do not put time and effort and energy and money
into things that aren't real. And what you can find
is that in nineteen eighty nine, the Office of Criminal Justice.
This is actually a California document, but you could find
similar documents around the nation, and they released this document

(26:52):
called a Cult Crime, a law Enforcement Primer, And I'm
not going to read this whole thing, but i just
want people to see what sort of the larger context
of this is inside of the United States of America
in the late eighties and early nineties. And so because
I think that this document does a really good job

(27:12):
of sort of pinning down what the conversation was, and
it says the extent of ritualistic abuse, national conspiracy, or
national hysteria, and I do think that's still probably the
relevant question. It has a ton of really good information,
including some information about a guy by the name of

(27:32):
doctor Al Carlisle of the Utah State prison system, which
is interesting that he comes from Utah who was claiming
in the mid nineteen eighties that there were between fifty
and sixty thousand human sacrifices committed annually in the United States.
And I know that for most people, if this is
the first time that you've ever heard of this, that
that number has to sound unbelievably unrealistic. And I'm not

(27:56):
really going to get into the arguments here today. I
just want people to recogniz that there were people who
were respected and were part of respectable systems inside of
the United States government and in the penal system, that
we're making these kinds of suggestions, right, and then there's
some more testimonies down here. Overall, here's what I want

(28:21):
to say about this. Just from my perspective, I find
it very strange that people understand that Christianity is a
religion that is growing and growing, and there are a
lot of people, and we understand the principle of opposition
in all things. But the minute that we're presented with
the idea that there might be a Church of Satan

(28:43):
that has just as many members as Christianity does, all
of a sudden we find out too hard to believe. Like,
as a former practicing Mormon, when I was introduced to
this idea, it actually made a lot of sense to
me that if there's going to be a Church of
Jesus Saints on the base of the earth, there should
also be a Church of Satan working just as hard

(29:04):
to achieve their goals as we are to try to
achieve our goals. And yet, for whatever reason, the leaders
of the church and the members of the church seem
to have a very difficult time acknowledging the fact that
if we believe in opposition in all things, we should
expect to find a large number of Satanists in our
midst doing everything they can to spread their gospel, just

(29:27):
like we try to spread our gospel. And that's outside
of the context of who's right and who's wrong. Like,
I've engaged with many Satanists over the course of my research,
and I've just sort of came down to the position
that they have. I mean, like, if we have the
ability to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ, then I
suppose that. And if God has given dominion to the

(29:50):
adversary over the earth, then I suppose that they have
the ability and the right to try to present their
gospel to people as well. I just don't think that
it's as unbelievable as people would like it to be
that there is a group of Satanists out there. And then,
of course, you know, when I have conversations with Satanists,
my problem with Satanist is that they always they want

(30:12):
to center the debate around whether or not they're doing
human sacrifices and abusing and all this. And look, I
believe in American principles and I believe that they're innocent
until proven guilty. I also happen to believe that if
you're a Satanist, you're probably a liar. And so, like
having a debate with a Satanist is not the easiest
thing in the world, because I have a hard time
trusting that you're going to tell me right, and so

(30:33):
it makes it difficult. But the fact is is that
I'm not going to persecute them unless I can prove something.
And so to this point, I don't know that there's
I mean, there definitely have been Satanist rings that have
been proven to be in existence and doing terrible things,
but not to the level or the extent of the

(30:55):
national hysteria that was happening in the late nineteen eighties
and early nineteen eighties or mid nineteen eighties and early
nineteen nineties.

Speaker 1 (31:02):
Right, Well, and there's there's all this at the same
similar close timing, we've got Anton Levey running around like
an idiot, okay, And and all it does is make
it that much more ridiculous. And that was on purpose,
Like these are sure actors, you know, this is on
purpose to make people say, look at honestly, this is

(31:24):
my opinion on the salamander thing. That is why that happened,
because there was a true story about a toad and
they pregamed that. The aftermath of it was horrific. But
I'm talking about why it even occurs, right, Like these
things are yeah necessary sometimes too, Yeah, yeah, so I would.

Speaker 2 (31:43):
I would say that, like again, like just logically, if
you study Mormonism, you're going to find all kinds of
groups that call themselves Mormon, right, and some of them.
I think the same thing is true of Satanism. If
you were to study Satanism, you're going to find groups
like Levey's group, and then you're going to find other
groups that are doing different things, right, And so I

(32:04):
choose not to spend a lot of time studying that.
But like I just just logically, I would expect that
we would find some groups that are more you know,
based on public relations and getting good press and growing
and enriching themselves, and then there are probably other groups
who are far more serious about the doctrine of satan
if you want to call it that or that kind
of a thing. And this left hand path, this idea

(32:24):
of the left hand path, right, So yeah, so I
guess I guess all I'm saying here is that, like,
it's just not all that's startling to me, And it's
always surprises me when people seem to think that it's
just completely unbelievable that there could be a group of
people who worship Satan that have a church and are
engaging in their own sacraments in the same way that
we have a Church of Jesus Christ and we engage

(32:46):
in our own sacraments. It seems pretty logical to me
that would be a real thing, And it just so
happens that in the late you know again, like sort
of in the eighties and early nineties, there's a major
national debate going on that probably you know, you're going
to find your answer related to like is it a
national conspiracy or is it national hysteria? The answer is
probably that it's more real than people would like to believe,

(33:08):
but there was probably more hysteria than needed than there
needed to be right, and that hysteria may have been
fomented by the very people who were engaging in the
behaviors that they didn't want to have seen. I think
that's I think it's a fairly rational position to take. Right.

Speaker 3 (33:24):
Yes, So amidst all this that's going on, what we
know with the historical certainty is that the Church of
Jesus Christ with that day Saints was not only aware
of the problem, but they were looking at the problem
as it related to members of the church inside.

Speaker 2 (33:44):
The Church of Jesus Christ with our day Saints. And
the reason that we know that is because of the
Pace Memo. And people need to understand that the Pace
Memo was not given to us by the Church because
they love us so much and they want us to
know what's going on and what it is that they're
doing this. This memo was leaked, and it was leaked
to the Tanners, who then published it, and the Church

(34:07):
was forced to acknowledge the reality of this memo, and
of course then everything that goes along with acknowledging the
reality of the memo. And what my experience with the
Pace Memo is is that most people, not even most people,
most people don't even know that the Pace Memo exists,
first of all. Second of all, those who do know
that the Pace Memo exists have never read the Pace Memo.

(34:30):
And then certainly, I think I can say, and I'm
standing on really firm ground that even those who've read
the pace Memo have not read it very carefully. And
so today what I'd like to do is read the
Pace Memo very carefully so that people really understand what
was going on and what this memo really like, what
it really means in history. Again, inside of this larger

(34:50):
context of the fact that Russelled Bess's daughter is being
accused of this, we know that it's happening in Provo
and Mantai, or allegedly it's happening in pro Romanti right
during this time period, and the church is concerned enough
that they assign a member of the presiding Bishopric, which
is Glenn pace to go and do some studies amongst
other people. And that's so we're going to talk about that.
So the first thing I want to just point out, though,

(35:12):
is that it was at the request of the Strengthening
the Church Members Committee that Glenn Pacee did this because,
and it says it right in the first line of
the memo, pursuant to the committee's request, I am writing
this memorandum to pass along what I have learned about
ritualistic child abuse. So what does that mean the leaders
of the church, Okay to Strengthening the Church Members Committee

(35:33):
is led by apostles. So apostles of the Lord were
aware of ritualistic child abuse going on inside the church,
and they they requested Glenn Pace, amongst others, to write
to study the topic, and to write some memorandum so
that they could decide what they needed to do. Now,
the very first thing that most people don't understand about

(35:55):
this is that the Pace memo is only one of
four memos that was written to leaders of the church.
And we don't know if they all went to the
Strengthing Matrich Members Committee, but we know that there are
at least four memos because in the Pace memo, glennel
Pace references several other reports and memorandums given to church

(36:15):
leaders on the topics of ritual abuse and Satanism. Okay,
and I want people to understand it's topics. It's separate topics.
It's not Satanic ritual abuse, it's satanism and ritual abuse. Okay.
That if we just read the memo, it says LDS

(36:35):
Social Services Report on Satanism dated May twenty fourth, nineteen
eighty nine. Okay, So that's one report LDS Social Services.
I have an idea of who wrote that, but I
can't really reveal it publicly because I haven't many way
to document it for sure, but people will be pretty interested,
I think if I dropped the name of who I
think was involved over Elda Social Services studying the topic

(36:58):
of Satanism and providing reports to the leaders of the church.
In addition to that, we have a memo from Brent Ward. Okay, Now,
Brent Ward is an important person in Utah at this
time because he had served or was serving as like
the top prosecutor for the federal government, Like he's like
the Utah Prosecutor or the federal parks for the state

(37:21):
of Utah. So this was important enough that leaders of
the church were not only looking inside to get information,
but they were looking in secular organizations and in governmental
organizations to get reports on what was going on. Okay,
and Brent Ward is a very very interesting person. I
reached out to Brent on Facebook and asked him if

(37:43):
he would ever reveal, you know, or like give the
report to the public to reveal, and he never wrote
me back, as most of these guys do. But Brent
was also involved in a lot of Penny Stock prosecution
of penny stock fraud. It just so happens that he
never looked at Elder M Russell Ballard's involvement with penny stocks,
but some of M. Russell Ballard's competitors you see Brent

(38:08):
Ward prosecuting for penny stock fraud. So we're now up
to three reports. And then you can see in this
same quote glad Pa says, therefore, I will limit this
writing to information not contained in those papers. So that's four.

(38:29):
So we know that there are at least four reports
that were provided to church leadership on the topics of
satanism and ritual abuse inside the LBS church. And in
the thirty five years since this has been revealed, the
church has refused to release any information outside of that
which was leaked in what is really the second PACE memo,

(38:51):
because there was a memo from PACE on October twentieth,
nineteen eighty nine. It was in response to brother Ward's
report before the PACE member that everybody knows, okay, So
unfortunately the church has chosen to turtle up on this
and they refuse to release this information so that people
can see what it was that they knew and when

(39:12):
it was that they knew it. And I think all
those display people a lot is because, as Glenn Pace
points out, there are legal ramifications to what they knew,
I think, and they would be in a lot of
trouble if we knew what they knew. I think that's
my opinion. So this particular report, the one that we
know about, was provided to the Strengthening the Church Members

(39:33):
Committee on July nineteenth, nineteen ninety and written right right
across the top of it are the words do not reproduce.
So you know, I guess there's room for debate here,
But I come from a place where I personally view
the circulation of information as like the most critical thing

(39:54):
inside of any group of people who choose to affiliate
with each other. And I really believe and subscribe to
this idea that secrets make both individuals and congregations and
civil societies and the world sick. And to see the
leaders of the church write something like do not reproduce

(40:16):
over the top of a memorandum and then do everything
that they can to keep what they know a secret
from those of us who are asked to sustain really
causes a ton of cognitive disstance in me, because I
have a hard time sustaining people who keep secrets for
me about important things. And to me, this is a

(40:36):
very important thing. If there's ritualistic child abuse going on
inside of the church and I have children, which I do,
then I want to know about that so that I
can make wise decisions about how to protect my family.
But in this case, the leaders of the church chose
to write do not reproduce across the top of this
and keep it, try to keep it a secret so
that nobody would understand the nature and scope of the

(40:57):
problem of ritualistic child abuse inside the Church of Jesus Christ.
A lot of these saints. Now, another thing that I
think that most people don't understand is that the Strengthening
the Church Members Committee is headed by apostles, and at
this time in the early nineteen nineties, we know for
a fact that two of the apostles that were part

(41:19):
of this committee were Russell M. Nelson and James E. Faust.
So we often talk about conflict of interest, right, So
if you'll remember, Russell Nelson's daughter had been named in
a pedophilia scandal on the Losatche Front in Davis County
in Banifly, Utah in nineteen eighty six, and then he's

(41:41):
put on a committee that's in charge of studying ritualistic
child abuse inside of the church and starts fishing around
for information, using Glennell Pace to gather information. I would
suggest that there is a major conflict of interest, especially
when you start to understand what it is that Russell
Nelson did in nineteen eighty six when he received those
hand delivered abuse cover up instructions from David Hardy, Because

(42:05):
what we know now is that what Russell Nelson did
is he acted to cover up the abuse not only
of his the alleged abuse of his daughter, but the
actual abuse that we know occurred at the hands of
a diagnosed pedophile by the name of Bill Carsonson, who
was good friends with the Miles in Bountiful, Utah. So
I'm not going to go too deeply into the Carsonton story,

(42:26):
but everybody needs to understand that it starts back in
the nineteen sixties in a place called Mount Olympus, Utah,
and Bill Carsonson and a couple other guys like Brian
David Mitchell who ended up kidnapping Elizabeth Smart and a
guy by the name of David Fuller who killed a
girl named Casey Woody, we're all abusing children in moun Olympus,
Utah in the nineteen sixties and nineteen seventies, early nineteen seventies.

(42:49):
Edward never disciplined or turned in for the abuse that
they were committing out there in n Russell Ballard's neighborhood.
And I think, well, I shouldn't say on video, but
like the anybody can go and find out, yeah, who was, Yeah,
who was living in the Mount Olypus neighborhoods, And it's
it's basically the aristocracy, the Mormon aristocracy. They went and

(43:12):
build a neighborhood. They called it Mount Olympus, which is
just unbelievably ironic since it's the men. Olympus is the
home of the Greek gods and these are Mormon men, right,
But they went and there was a bunch of abuse
going on there, including Bill Carstonson, who later married into
a very prominent Morman family, moved to Bountiful, was abusing
up there. And when when Brandon Miles got whipped in

(43:35):
and was alleged was allegedly a part of this abuse,
Russell and Nelson used his position as an impossible of
the Lord Jesus Christ to make sure that Bill Carstonson
wouldn't be punished, which led to even worse outcomes that
I'm talking about later to want people to understand that
the man asking for information about ritualistic child abuse inside
the church was a man who had a daughter who

(43:56):
was allegedly part of a child abuse ring in Utah.
And I don't know how you escape the fact that
there is a serious conflict of interest in Russell and
Nelson's life. In addition to that conflict of interest, what
we now know about Russell Nelson is that when he
was at the University of Utah, he was making death
oaths with groups like Sigma Kai and Skull and Bones

(44:19):
and Alan Alan Key, which you basically once you're in
Skull and Bones, you graduated Alan Keevan next year, right.
And so I've done entire presentations on the University of
Utah and Skull and Bones. And there are a lot
of people who think that it's not doesn't have anything
to do with yele Skull and Bones. That's not true.
It says right in the yearbook that the University of

(44:40):
Utah Skull and Bones comes directly out of Yale. And
just yesterday we discovered that William Huntington Russell, who is
the man who brought skull and Bones to Yale, is
the fifth cousin of a man by the name of
William Huntington, who was a prominent church leader who kept
the Egyptian papy rae and mummies for Joseph Smith has

(45:00):
He was very He was one of the first settlers
of Navu. He was a Stonemason. There's a picture on
family search that says he may have been the one
who carved the upside down star into the Navu temple
and that kind of a thing. And so, uh, I
guess the point is we don't know the full nature
of what was at the University of Tall. What we
know is that it's in a cult, secret society. We

(45:22):
know that the people who are part of it show
up to their interviews in death masks and black robes.
We know that it's not a group of people that
an apostible the Lord should be affiliating with. And yet
he is.

Speaker 1 (45:35):
Right and Love's last name too. It's just so.

Speaker 2 (45:40):
Yeah, yeah, is that funny? Yeah, so so. But there's
just there's a major conflict of interest that people don't
understand about the pace memo and that conflict of interest
is that Glenn Pace is gathering information for somebody who
has a vested interest in making sure that this doesn't
ever see the light of day, and that person is
Russell M. Nelson, right, So really the only outcome, well,

(46:08):
there's a couple outcomes, and so we'll talk about this
one first. So this is not very easy to find,
and it really should be because it was actually an
official letter signed by the first Presidency, but it's been
disappeared off of the Internet. But I was able to
find a place where in an end sign. I would
really encourage people to go to this link and see

(46:30):
how they buried this, because it's on a page with
a bunch of other announcements, and every other announcement has.

Speaker 4 (46:35):
Bold headline, and then you have to scroll scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll,
and you get down to the bottom of the page
and there's this little note that says, the following letters
signed by the First Presidency, has been sent to all
general and local priesthood leaders.

Speaker 2 (46:49):
And here's what the This is what the letter says.
We occasionally receive reports from some areas about the activities
of people who engage in risk ritualistic practices. Including forms
of so called Satan worship. We express love and concern
to innocent victims who have been subjected to these practices
by conspiring men and women. We are sensitive to their
suffering and assure them that help is available through the

(47:11):
mercy and love of our Savior Jesus Christ. All matter
of the church not to affiliate in any way with
the occult or those mysterious powers it espouses. Such activities
are among the works of darkness spoken of in the scriptures.
They are designed to destroy one's faith in Christ and
will jeopardize the salvation of those who knowingly promote this wickedness.

(47:33):
These things should not be pursued as games, be topics
in church meetings, or be delved into in private personal conversations.
If bishops and branch presidents encounter such activities and feel
that they need assistance, we ask that they seek counsel
from their stake or mission leaders. Stake and mission presidents
can seek guidance from their area president. And so I

(47:57):
know you well enough to know that as I'm reading that,
your eyes are probably rolling into the back of your
head because of the occult background of men like Joseph Smith,
and hire them and so on and so forth, and
so you know, I'm happy to pause and that you
sort of address that for a second if you'd like to.
But what I want to point out is that this
did lead to some action by the first presidency. It's

(48:17):
a little bit questionable who in the first presidency actually
put this together, because again, if you believe Steve Benson,
this is around the time where I believe I believe
early nineteen ninety we still have President Benson, and he's
really incapacitated. And so I would be very interested to
know who it was that actually drafted this up, because
I have a sense that it's probably men like Gordon

(48:39):
Hankley and Tom Monson and not so much Ezra have Benson.
But anyway, i'll pause here and I'll let you address
how they're talking about how wicked and evil all these
occult practices are, if you'd like to YEA, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (48:51):
It's funny to me because I mean, they had to
do it with absolute knowledge that well, number one, it
would never happen today, because they knew that there are
cool beginnings in the church, and it's just the facts,
I mean, And so for them to say this knowing
what they know, they just had to count on the
fact that no one would dig right, and for a

(49:11):
long time, I think that was a given. I think
that good standing Mormons would do what they're told, and
they just don't anymore. They want to.

Speaker 2 (49:21):
Sure, So I mean, and I know, just to name
a few of those things, like let's just be really
specific about how there's no way they could not have known.
So for example, I mean, they obviously had the searstones
in the first presidency evolved. They obviously had what is
it the is it the Mars knife?

Speaker 1 (49:36):
They Mars knife? Yep, we've got the scrolls are just
you know, the parchments are really damning, and those were
at the right Yeah, and they couldn't get rid of
it because it was a private collector that owned them
at that point. So I'm sure that's why they were leaked,

(49:58):
you know.

Speaker 2 (50:00):
I mean, I would tend to agree with you in it,
and I'm certainly not an expert on this topic, but
I do think there's a little bit of, at the
very best, a little bit of disingenuousness in the message
that was sent out because we have the historical artifacts now.
But like you mentioned, at that point in nineteen ninety
This is just the beginning of the dawn of the internet, right,

(50:22):
And I think they felt like they could still keep
a cap on it and that people wouldn't find out
about the occult. It's not folk magic, right, that's I mean,
the church wants to present it as folk magic, but
it's really not folk magic what was going on in
the early church. And so for them to put out
this statement, I mean, it's fine, they can put out

(50:44):
whatever they want. But now that we understand the origins
of the church and some of the occultism that was
going on there, well, now we need to address why
we had such occult beginnings. And then in nineteen ninety
one or nineteen ninety the first presidency is putting this
out that it's that nobody should be doing it. Well,
if nobody should be doing it, why would josephin hire
him doing it? Right? So exactly that's a whole different topic,

(51:06):
I think, But I do just want to point out
that they that there was enough pressure as this came
out that the first president of the Church did feel
like they needed to put out a statement, and that
is the statement. I don't have a copy of the
science statement, but that's the text of the statement. So
let's look at the actual content of the Pace memo
and see why they felt like they needed to put
out a statement. And I'm only going to look at

(51:27):
half of the Pace memo, so people need to understand
that half of the Pace memo is sort of his
reporting his findings. And then he spends six pages talking
about the doctrinal background for why he believes that this
is taking place. And I'm not going to cover all
the scriptures and how the doctrinal background in the Pace
memo today, like, which is pages like six through twelve.
I'm just going to cover the first five pages. So

(51:51):
let's look at what Glenn Pace found after he spent
time studying ritual abuse inside of the LDS church. So
he starts off by saying, I have met with sixty victims.
That number could be twice or three times as many
if I did not discipline myself to only one meeting
per week. So let's just stop and do a little

(52:14):
bit of math for a second. If he's meeting one
victim per week, one meeting per week, and there's sixty victims,
If he's only meeting with one victim, that's sixty weeks
of work right now, maybe he was meeting with more
and maybe it's not quite sixty weeks, but this isn't
something that happened in a period of two or three weeks.
And then Glenn Pace dashed off a memo to leaders

(52:37):
of the church. This was a serious problem that was
getting serious attention and being carefully monored over an extended
period of time. And Glenn Pace tells us explicitly that
it could be a couple hundred victims if he wasn't
quote unquote disciplining himself to one meeting per week. Okay,

(53:00):
he just says, I've not wanted my involvement with this
issue to become a handicap in fulfilling my assigned responsibilities,
which is man So, like, I want to just preface
this by saying, I've talked to several people who were
interviewed by Glenn Pace, and to a person, they defend
the goodness of Glenn Pace. And so, guys me crazy
to see a leader of the church saying I'm meeting

(53:21):
with people who are being ritually abused, but I don't
want it to distract me from the other things my
assigned responsibilities, right, Like, I just don't understand as justin Riggs,
what could be more important than taking the time to
minister to people who've been ritually abused, Like, what is
it that you've been assigned, Glenn? That's more important than
getting to the bottom of this. But it's a very Morman.

(53:44):
The thing I want to point out is it's a
very Mormon reaction, right. It's a very like Peter Priestood.
We use that term inside of the church for guys
who are like the word, like the words that Ralph
Hardywood use are church broke right. And all that means
is that you're like, you're so focused on your duty
and you're so focused on the letter of the law
that when somebody comes to you who's been ritually abused,

(54:05):
you say, wow, that's really bad. But I have some
money I need to count over here and make sure
that the temporal affairs of the church are all in line. Right. So,
like I said, I never talked to a person who
knew Glen Pace who had anything but kind things to
say about him. And I do not want to denigrate
the name of that man because I never knew him,
and for all I know, he was the best person ever.

Speaker 5 (54:26):
But for me, it drives me crazy to see that
he had this in his lap and he was worried
about his other assigned responsibilities instead of the human beings
who are coming to him.

Speaker 2 (54:40):
So to his credit, he does say, on the other hand,
I felt someone needed to spend the time or to
pay the price to obtain an intellectual and spiritual conviction
of the business of this problem within the church. And
so again, I mean, I do think that everything that
I've gathered about Glen Paste is said he was a
good person who just kind of realized that he was
up against something that he wasn't going to be a
to overcome. And so but he was willing to put

(55:03):
in the time and effort to gain what he calls
an interlatulent spiritual conviction as to the seriousness of the problem.
And I think it's really important that people understand if
you're going to pro prove the idea of ritual abuse
inside the church, then you're not sustaining a member of
the presiding bishopric. Because Glenn Pace is explicit about the
fact that he gained a spiritual conviction in addition to

(55:23):
an intellectual conviction about the seriousness of ritual abuse inside
of the church. Okay, This next one I call demographics
determined Destiny, and he talks about the who and where
of ritualistic abuse inside the LBS church. So he says,
of the sixty victims who I've met, fifty three are

(55:43):
female and seven are male. Eight are still children. The
abuse occurred in the following places, thirty seven in Utah,
three and Idaho, for in California, two in Mexico, and
fourteen in other places. Fifty three victims are currently living
in the state of Utah. All sixty individuals are members
of the church. Forty five victims allege witnessing and are

(56:06):
participating in human sacrifice. The majority were abused by relatives,
often their parents. All have developed psychological problems, and most
have been diagnosed as having multiple personality disorder or some
other form of dissociative disorder. So there are a couple
of things I want to just throw out there about this.

(56:28):
The one thing that really sticks out to me is
that all sixty of these people are still members of
the church despite having been richly abused by other people.
This isn't a group of anti Mormons showing up to
Glenn Pace's door, breaking down the doors and demanding changes.
Inside the church. This is a group of people who

(56:49):
have gone through some horrific things and despite that, have
chosen to still be members of the Church of Jesus
Christ to alatur day Saints at this particul their time, Okay,
to see how the church responded to these members of
their flock is really heartbreaking to me. To see that

(57:13):
these people went through what they went through and then
were treated the way that they were by men like
Russell Nelson and Elder Faust, James Faust, really hurts my
heart because these are people who were just really reaching
out for help. And I know that there's an open
question about what really happened, right, Like, certainly anytime you

(57:36):
get into a ritual abuse case, things get very muddy,
very fast about the facts about what happened. In the
case of like the Hamblin abuse, we know that David
Hamblin was giving his children payety right and so, and
they were children and they were being horrifictly abused, and

(57:56):
so when you go to gather the facts about that
kind of a thing, it's very difficult to understand what
happened factually, right. But the fact that the church chose
to grab on and doubt the victim instead of helping
the victim. It is really problematic to me. It really

(58:19):
for men who claim to be special witnesses of the
name of Jesus Christ and he has representatives on the
face of the earth. I have a really hard time
seeing a ritual abuse victim showing up at Jesus's feet
and having Jesus say false memory syndrome. Right, it's just
satanic panic, Like I feel really bad for you, and
I hope you'll get over it, but we're not going

(58:41):
to do anything about this. But that's exactly what the
leaders of the LDS Church did. They turned their back
on this group of people and left them to try
to overcome the challenges of whatever the facts are on
their own, because if their stories have been told, it
would have hurt the brand of LVS Inc. And this

(59:03):
new shadow government that had been set up inside the
church starting in nineteen eighty four. So Greenpace goes on
to say, the victims lead relatively normal lives, but the
memories are locked up in a compartment in their minds
and surface in various ways. They don't know how to
cope with the emotions because they can't find the source

(59:24):
as they become adults and move into another environment, something
triggers the memories, and consequently flashbacks and or nightmares occur.
One day they will have been living a normal life,
and the next they will be in a mental hospital
in a fetal position. The memories of their early childhood
are recalled in so much detail that they once again
feel the pain that caused the dissociation in the first place. Now,

(59:48):
I am not a psychologist. I'm not an expert in dissociation,
and as somebody who's not an expert in those stings,
it's difficult for me to understand how this works. I
know is that this is a real thing inside of
the practice of psychology. This idea of dissociation and the
idea of separate personalities being set up inside of human

(01:00:09):
beings is very real. In fact, we know it because
CIA documents have revealed that they were doing very similar things,
trying to control people in very similar ways, right through
torture programs and so on and so forth. So I
understand the skepticism that most people come at this topic

(01:00:32):
with because I hold a certain degree of skepticism. But
it's not so much skepticism as it is simply just ignorance,
and I personally come at it from a place of
if I'm ignorant, the place to meet somebody is not
with scorn and pride, but it's to meet them at
a place of trying to understand what it is. And

(01:00:52):
I do this on a regular basis. I talk to
people who have dissociation. I talk to people who've been abused,
and all I can never tell them is I don't
understand how that works. And it's very hard for me
to understand how you could have had these things happened
and made it to like your mid thirties without recognizing
that it happened. But it doesn't mean that it didn't happen.

(01:01:15):
It just means that I'm ignorant of how this works,
and so can you teach me. But again, the church
leaders didn't come from a place of humility seeking to
understand how dissociation happens. They came at it from a
place of fear that it would hurt LDS Inc's brand,
and so they just had to get it out of

(01:01:35):
the way with this shadow government of the Special Affairs
Committee and the strengthing in the Church Members Committee, and
they left all these victims, I mean, like We'll never
know how many victims there were, But if there were
one hundred and eighty, if there were sixty that were
still members of the church, and Glenn pay says it
was one hundred and eighty, how many people were abused
that left the church, how many people were still in

(01:01:58):
the church but never had a chance to talk to
Glenn Pace? I just I mean, it's not a small problem,
especially in the nineteen eighties when the church is still
relatively small and unknown. Right. Wow, So to me, just
from a very pragmatic point of view, the church really

(01:02:19):
flubbed its response here, Like they really failed to act
with anything that would allow me to have any to
give them any sense of like moral authority in terms
of making wise decisions about what happens when abuse victims
come to them. And then it gets really it gets
a lot worse when you really when you look at
what was going on. And we'll talk about that as
we keep right, but let's just keep going to see

(01:02:42):
what else was in the menmo Okay, I think that's
when we can sort of skip over. Mostly. Glad Pace
is just talking about the fact that when it is
finally remembered, it's as fresh as if it happened yesterday.
And that's very much the same experience that I've heard
from people who have gone through similar or like not

(01:03:04):
just similar, but which like claim to have gone through.
Richalst of abuse is that like it's not there, and
then it is there, but when it is there, it's
as real as it happened, as though it happened yesterday,
and it just completely upends a person's life. So let's
talk about Glenn Pace's witness and let's talk about this
from a doctrinal standpoint, and what bothers me about the
church's response to this from a doctrinal standpoint. So we

(01:03:26):
know that in the scriptures, in the standard works of
the Church of Jesus christal litterative Saints, we're told that
everything is to be established by the mouths of two
or three witnesses. Here is what Glenn Pays has to
say says. Some have said that the witnesses to this
type of treatment cannot be trusted because of the victim's
unstable condition and because practically all of them have some
kind of dissociative disorder. In fact, the stories are so

(01:03:46):
bizarre is to raise serious credibility questions. The irony is
that one of the objectives of the occult is to
create multiple personalities within the children in order to keep
the secrets they live in society without society. Have I
any idea that something is wrong since the children and
teenagers don't even realize there as another life occurring in
darkness and in secret. However, when sixty witnesses testified to

(01:04:10):
the same type of torture and murder, it becomes impossible
for me personally not to believe them. Everybody has to
come to their own decision about this, But I would
simply ask, if there are sixty people who don't know
each other coming to one source giving similar stories about

(01:04:35):
what had happened to them, how is it that you
cast aside the testimonies of sixty people when we're told
in the church that by all things are to be
established by the mouth of two or three witnesses. And
I don't think we'll ever know why the leaders of
the church did, because they refused to talk about it.

(01:04:57):
But I that I would ask Russell M. Nelson if
I had the opportunity, is how did you turn your
back on sixty testimonies when you know that by the
mouth of two or three witnesses, all things are to
be established. They had way more than they needed to
take this seriously and make people inside of the church

(01:05:18):
aware of the problem so that we could come together
as a community and decide how we wanted to deal
with it. But instead they saw themselves as special and
elite and took away our ability to provide informed consent
to allow our children to continue to be in situations
in which they might be richly abused. And I will
just say this, because of that choice, there are people

(01:05:40):
who at least claim that they were richly abused abused
long after the PACE memo came out, and their families
may have made different choices if church leaders had made
different choices about how to handle this.

Speaker 1 (01:05:55):
Yeah, I should have intervened at that point so that
things could be taking care, because it really leaves you
in question if it was continue to purp And that's
I'm not I'm just saying allegedly, that would be the
only reason I could think of to not squash it, right.

Speaker 2 (01:06:15):
Yeah, well who knows why? Right? I mean? And it's
fun to talk about that, but like in reality, like
all we know is that they just they didn't And
look that last paragrapher that I read from Glenn Pace
that like or just previous to when Glenn Pace was
investigating this. So to me, it appears that Glen Pace
was right on top of it, and it just took

(01:06:36):
a couple of decades before we got the handling victim
statements to see a specific case of how this was working.
And it just so happens that it lines up perfectly
with what Glenn Pace was reporting to the Office of
the First President or to sume you the Strengthening the
Church Members Committee who chose not to do anything about it, well,
they did. They chose to do something about it. They
chose to cover it up. So I think that's it

(01:06:56):
needs to be addressed. It needs to be it needs
to be discussed. How did Glenn Pace now in nineteen
ninety what was happening to the Hambling girls in the eighties.
But we didn't find out about what was happening to
the Hambling girls until the nineteen or excuse me, until
like the late two thousands and maybe even into this
I think it was actually in the twenty twenties. Yeah,
it was. It was only three years ago. So we
didn't find out until thirty years after Glen Pace wrote

(01:07:18):
that paragraph, And yet it matches up perfectly with what
the Hambling daughters tell us was happening in that Utah
Bridgel abuse case. That Governor Cox has chosen to hamstream
by promoting Ryan Peters into a judge ship so that
there would be no prosecutor for that case. So it's
not like this all ended in nineteen ninety, Like this

(01:07:38):
is this is still a problem and it's still going
on and people can't get justice because people refused to
deal with it and address it.

Speaker 1 (01:07:47):
Okay, And I find it interesting that we're one of
the few states that you know, gives a timeframe for
abuse as well, and I don't like that.

Speaker 2 (01:07:56):
That's part of the story. I'll tell you a little
bit about that when I get to that part, because
that is actually a part of this story. So this
is a long paragraph. It's just talking about again the
things that are going on inside of this of like
what's happening to these victims. And he's talking about how
these people will because these kids are being raised inside
the Church of Jesus Christ, Altitay Saints. These these people
who are allegedly, you know, worshipping Satan and performing this abuse.

(01:08:21):
For Satan will say, hey, pray to Jesus that he'll
save you, and then they'll almost drown the child and
say and then they'll bring them back out and say, look,
Jesus didn't save you, but I, a representative of Lucifer,
did save you. And so he's just talking about the
different kinds of physical, mental, and spiritual pain that these
these people are going through. And what eventually ends up

(01:08:41):
developing is what Pace calls a civil war, an internal
civil war. I would just call it a holy war, right,
because if this kind of thing is happening, I mean
it's certainly the purpose of it is to cause a
holy war inside the psyche of a human being, right,
and to bring down faith in Jesus Christ and to

(01:09:02):
establish faith in Lucifer because they believe that in the
end it will be Lucifer or Satan that ends up
being ruling and reigning over this creation.

Speaker 1 (01:09:14):
Right, And so funny that they're the you know, Lucifer
is the light bringer. And then we get right back
into lumens I always think, and we won't go there
right now, but I'm just saying when people look at
church history, it's interesting it can be a weird road.

Speaker 2 (01:09:32):
Yeah, yep. So it talks about how most victims are suicidal,
which is understandable, and it talks about how they've been
threatened all of their lives that if they don't do
what they're told, their brother or sister will die, their
parents will die, their house will be burned, or they
themselves will be killed. They have every reason to believe
that since they have seen people killed, they believe they
might as well killed themselves instead of wait for the
occult to do it. Some personalities feel it is the

(01:09:54):
right thing to do, so I think this is how
can I friend that, Like, I want to say this
in a way that's responsible. Later on we're going to
see how the church takes this, and they try to
tie this ritual abuse and satanism to the brand of
Miles case. And I think this is where they get
that idea, because there is a piece of that Brandon

(01:10:15):
Miles case where again Dick Miles allegedly breaks the neck
of a cat or something like that and then tells
the children, if you tell that what we're doing, we
will kill you in the same way, and that's very
similar to what's in the Pace memo. But it's really truly,
the only part of the Brand and Miles case that
has anything to do with the Pace memo is this
piece of it of threatening children. What we know is

(01:10:36):
that in almost every case of child abuse, the child
is threatened that if they tell something bad will happen
to them or their family. So again the disingenuousness of
church leaders and then a skull and bones lawyer by
the name of Jim Jardine who intervenes in the Miles
case in twenty eighteen. I don't think it can really
be overemphasized because to take out this little piece of

(01:10:57):
the Pace memo and then try to apply it to
the Miles case, which was really just like any other
case of abuse like that didn't have anything to do
with ritualistic abuse, and to tie with Pace memo stuff
to the Miles case in order to get Brandon Miles
off the hook and Dick Miles off the hook, I
think it's a really nasty piece of lawfare, like probably
one of the most nasty pieces of lawfare that I've

(01:11:17):
ever seen. And I'm going to show you guys kind
of exactly what happened there a little bit later down
here in the presentation. So Glen Pace talks about how
priestthood leadership is really struggling to deal with this. He
talks about how when victims go to meet with their
priesthood leaders, he says, a good intentioned priesthood leader, following

(01:11:38):
the General Handbook of instructions, will this fellowship or excommunicate
the victim. Of course, all this does is reinforce the
satanic indoctrination of the victims that they are no good
excuse me. So this plays a lot into my abuse
research because we see this quite often inside of abuse cases,

(01:12:03):
not ritual abuse cases, but just any abuse case where
church leaders are really untrained and incompetent in dealing with
these cases. And certainly Grand Pacee testifies to this in
the case of ritual abuse, where people are being abused
going to get help from their priest leaders and are

(01:12:24):
being excommunicated from the church after they ask for help
recovering from the abuse that they've suffered. And again, to
Glenn Pace's credit, he seems to understand that that's a
problem and he's asking for the leaders of the church
to do something to help that. But what does the
church do do They spin up amazing programs to help
bishops and state presidents become trauma informed and to learn

(01:12:47):
how to be capable and or at the mail needs
to take these people and get them in the hands
of people who are capable. Now, what the church does
is they demonize the therapists who are trying to treat
this and they send a two little or you know,
three paragraphs little letter to church leaders and leave them
incompetent and unable to handle the problem. Okay, now this

(01:13:11):
is early nineteen nineties, and so the church had yet
become fabulously as fabulously wealthy as they are right now,
but they certainly had the resources to do whatever they
needed to in order to help these victims. After Glen
Pace mentions that they're getting exommunicated, but again, they're not
concerned about that. They're just concerned that this doesn't get
out so that the brand of the church doesn't get hurt. Right.

(01:13:33):
One thing I really want to point out about that too,
is simply, like again, just put it in a larger
historical context. If you're talking about nineteen ninety one, you're
talking about the end of the Cold War, and what
we know about the time around this is that like
men like David Kennedy and women like Beverly Boff Campbell
and all the apostles are working very very hard to
spread the Gospel around the world. And so from one sense,
in one sense, I can understand why they felt, I

(01:13:55):
need to cover this up, because if you're trying to
get access to several countries that won't let you in
to preach the gospel, and all of a sudden the
world learns that there's one hundred and eighty, you know,
victims of Satanic Richard abuse inside of Utah. Do you
think that the Russians are going to let you in?
Do you think that the Yugoslavians are going to let
even that? Do you think the Portuguese are going to
let you in to preach the gospel? Will No, of

(01:14:16):
course not, because they're going to be like, what the
heck is going on in that religion. So I do
want people to understand that, Like, I don't think that
they're just mean, ugly, wicked people who had no reason
to cover it up at all. I think they had
very good reasons to cover it up because they have
worked very hard to gain access to these countries and
they were finally seeing results in nineteen ninety one like
nineteen ninety one is the year that Yelson gets elected

(01:14:39):
and the Soviet Union crumbles. Right, So they had very
good reasons to cover it up. They just weren't ethical
or morell or right in my opinion, Like they really
should have let it come out and then addressed it
instead of covering it up in my opinion. And to me,
I just don't really want to affiliate with, support or

(01:15:00):
sustain men who make the wrong choice in difficult times.
And to me, this is a really sterling example of
LDS leaders making the wrong moral and ethical choice. Not
because I mean it was a very difficult choice, but
they made the wrong choice. They didn't trust the Lord
to be able to address it and still get into
these countries. They took it upon themselves to bury it

(01:15:22):
so that they could then preach the gospel to all
the world. You know. So green Pace talks about the
church being used. This goes to the why that you
kind of brought up. And so this is justin Riggs
for everybody who's watching, this is Justin Riggs's conspiracy theory
about the why. I don't think that the church was

(01:15:45):
being used. I personally think that they're probably members high
high up in the church that engage in behaviors that
would probably shock and horrify most people, just due to
who they affiliate with, sustain and support and pay men
like Gordon Mowen for example, men like Tim Ballard for example.

(01:16:07):
And I think that what was happening here is that
as it started to unravel in Bountiful, because people need
to understand that the Miles case in Bountiful wasn't the
only abuse case. There were multiple pedophile cases, pedophilia cases
up in Bountiful right around this time. And as that
starts to unwind and it starts to involve leaders of

(01:16:29):
the church, I think that they were using glenn Pace
to just gather as much information as they could to
know what was going on, so that they would know
how to handle it if it ever got out in
the wild. And that is just my conspiracy theory. I'm
more than happy to acknowledge that that's just my conspiracy theory.
But after almost two years of doing research and seeing

(01:16:50):
the decisions that these men who lead the church have
made in their lives, I don't see this as them
trying to find a solution for the problem. I see
as an intelligence gathering operation. So that they could get
ahead of it and bury it and know what it
was they were going to be dealing with it if
it ever got out. And I think personally that Glenn
Pace got caught in the middle again, just based on

(01:17:13):
what I've been told about Glen Pace, and I could
be wrong about that. This is all conjecture at this point.
For this little section of the presentation that Glenn Pace
says that he feels like the church is being used,
I would suggest that maybe not. I would suggest that
Glen Pace may have been getting used by some church
leaders who had a lot to lose if this, if
the whole nature and scope of this problem found its

(01:17:35):
way into the public consciousness, you know. And unfortunately the
leaders of the church aren't men enough to answer my letters.
I know that they know, because I've sent letters to
that the presidency through my state president. I know that
they know that I know, but they refuse to talk
to me, and instead they excommunicated me from the church

(01:17:57):
partly for this, not for that. This is not the
whole reason that they actually paved me from the church.
But it was a past to see and a lot
of it was my exposure of the large number of
men and women inside of the church leadership who have
made deathos with the cult secret societies like today over
the University of Utah. So yeah, unfortunately, like they don't

(01:18:18):
follow their own standard works In DNC seventy one, it
says that you know, if somebody is your enemy, that
you're supposed to talk to them and public in private,
and that you're supposed to make their shame manifest. But
these men are not doing that. They're not willing to
do that. They have a ton of protection, like I
call it the veil of protection. I think a lot
of it has to do with their relationships with the

(01:18:39):
military industrial complex, and so they don't have to come
out and talk about it. They can just hot up
the tower that the church was building. And like I mean,
I only have seventeen hundred followers on Twitter. Not a
lot of people know about what we found in the
historical record, and I think they're just keeping their fingers
crossed that this will never find an audience. You know.

(01:19:00):
I think that's really my opic, and I think that eventually,
whether it's through me or others, it will find an
audience because I think people are curious about what the
heck's going on over there.

Speaker 1 (01:19:09):
You know, I think there's enough questions and enough connections
now for people to say, Okay, it can't all be lies.
Like sure, maybe some of it it's a lie, Maybe some
of it's fake and leaked on purpose, maybe some whatever,
but like, really, this is such a rabbit hole. Me
and you talked like it's literally hurt our brain. Yeah,

(01:19:32):
it's such a deep rabbit hole. Right, So yeah, yep, yep.

Speaker 2 (01:19:37):
So yeah, I just don't I really wish that they
would follow their own standard works. But it's another thing
that causes me not to trust them, despite the fact
that Russell Nelson is out there preaching to people that
there are fifteen men on the face of the earth
you can trust completely. I just can't bring myself to
trust them for this and many many other reasons. But
this is a big part of it. So, you know,

(01:19:59):
another criticis I have of Glenn Pace, but I think
we have to remember that it was nineteen ninety's simply.
I mean, he states right in the memmo that he
goes out of his way to not let the victims
give the names of the perpetrators, and so this predates
the the IDs Abuse Hotline, right and I think there's
just a lot of naivete and I think there's just

(01:20:19):
not a ton of understanding about the responsibility that people
have when somebody comes to you to report abuse. But
Glenn Pace unfortunately made the choice not to let the
victims give him the names of the perpetrators. It would
have been much better if Glenn it gathered all the
names of the perpetrators and turned it over to all.
I don't know Brett Ward, for example, right who we
know was involved in this, because Brent Word could have

(01:20:40):
taken all of those names and they could have done
an actual investigation instead of the fake investigation that the
government did where they ended up coming out and saying, oh,
no problem, everybody move on with your lives. Right. So
it's not like it's not like the it's not like
the resources weren't there. You know, Glenn Pace just decided
that it wasn't his responsibility as a clergy member to

(01:21:02):
gather those names of the perpetrators. I would highly encourage
anybody whoever has somebody come to them and disclose abuse
to get the name of the perpetrator and import them
to the authorities immediately, not the church hotline, the legal
authorities please. So this part here is simply about Glenn
Pace stating that there's a lot of confusion amongst the

(01:21:24):
church leaders because there has been no first presidency statement.
You can see it right here. He says, there's no
first presidency statement relative to some of the doctrinal issues.
For example, what does a priest of leader tell individuals
who come forward and say that they have participated in
these rituals which may include human sacrifice? Should they have
a temple recommend? No, Glenn, they should not have a
temple recommend Will they ever be forgiven? I don't know, Glenn,

(01:21:46):
That's I guess. A good question for the first Presidency
that they never address is a person who has been
raised in occult from infancy accountable for things that take
place in a dissociated state. This is a really, really
critical question for people who've been involved in this stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:22:03):
How do you know right from wrong? If you've taught
that's like kids that are always abused will take satanic
whatever out of it. But like if the parent is
saying this is how we show love. I work in
mental health, okay, and then you're going to punish them
for something that they literally probably started as as you said,

(01:22:24):
in infancy oftentimes and this is disgusting yep.

Speaker 2 (01:22:29):
Yeah, and so and so I think Glenna's bringing up
really great questions. Yes, I think these legitimate questions that
the first presidency and apostles of the Church should be addressing.
But here we are thirty years later, and I can
go in the handbook and I can promise you there
is nothing that can help a victim of ritual abuse
understand whether or not they're accountable for the things that

(01:22:50):
they've done when they're in a dissociated state, because you
have to understand whether they're in that dissociative state. Often
they are asked to abuse others.

Speaker 1 (01:22:58):
Yep, and their program, sometimes with hypnotism, which is going
to get very into you know, the one that took
off to Scotland. But I mean, like, you know, we
gotta be careful there, Yeah exactly. I mean, you know,
the last person I saw that did a lot of
work on this case actually removed all the work from

(01:23:20):
this case and never talks about it anymore. So I'm
glad that you're coming out and doing this.

Speaker 2 (01:23:25):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean it is what it is, right,
So somebody's going to talk about it.

Speaker 1 (01:23:32):
It's real. It's real, like these are documents. It's not
like we're sitting at home trying to figure out ways
to make Mormons look bad. I don't know about you,
but my beginning through all this was trying to find
out how they could be wrong. That's how I started.
How how I would prove it right? Like that, There's
no way, there's no way, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:23:54):
Yeah, Like I mentioned the beginning of the show, I
mean it was it was really being on some forums
that we're talking about these kinds of things, and it
just felt it just felt very unreal. And I'm a
person who likes to ground myself in historical reality as
much as possible. I understand the need to gain revelation
from time to time, but I personally believe that we
can solve most of our problems just using logic and reason.

(01:24:16):
I think God gave us those abilities for a reason,
you know. And so yeah, I mean that's exactly how
I got sucked into it. And I think the problem
for the church is that anybody who has intellectual curiosity
and a good heart, if they hear about these things
happening and they go to look unfortunately, like my conscience

(01:24:36):
won't allow me to stop talking about it. I mean,
I was certainly invited to stop talking about it repeatedly, right.

Speaker 1 (01:24:41):
But I'm sure you are.

Speaker 2 (01:24:45):
How do I turn my back on a group of
people because it's not Look, a lot of these victims
that Glenn Pace interviewed are still alive. And then there
are victims that have nothing to do with Glen Pace
that are still struggling. They still have the same struggle
that these victims had thirty years ago because the church
leaders refuse to address this. And if I'm supposed to

(01:25:06):
treat these people as my brother and sister, well then
how do I turn my back on them and just
walk away and say, Wow, sounds really terrible. Good luck
with the atonement, good luck with that, Good luck with that. Yeah,
And so I just I choose not to live my
life that way. I guess I don't know, you know, And.

Speaker 1 (01:25:21):
Well, there's those of us that are programmed for justice,
and honestly, the skills of justice will come whether they
think they're covered with the Second Anointing or not. I'm sorry,
God is not that way. That's bull crap. So that's
that's works of men to make themselves feel better about
a really bad thing. That's bad things.

Speaker 2 (01:25:44):
Uh so yeah, you gotp So I think the last
piece here is simply, you know, Glad Pace pointing out
what happened to priesthood leaders as they try to address this,
because again I think you and I don't know if
we've talked about it during the show today, I'm losing track,
but I know we've talked about it off and other
times that like, your average bishop and your average state
president is usually a pretty good person, right, who's really

(01:26:08):
devoted a lot of time and attention and energy to
being a good disciple of Jesus Christ, and then they
get put in a leadership position and they're untrained and
incompetent in how to handle the situations that come up
as they serve as a bishop of state president. This
being an extreme case of that, right, Like, how is
even I mean, like, how is any bishop or stake
president unless they are in psychology or in psychiatry, going

(01:26:30):
to know how to handle this? And yet at this
point in the nineteen nineties, that's exactly what the church
is asking them to do.

Speaker 1 (01:26:35):
And here's what they're going to tread so carefully, Like
the reason that people can demonize how he handled it,
But you guys have to understand back then, getting excommunicated
was like a death sentence, first of all, for your life.
And number two, like he's treading carefully because he doesn't
want to happen to him. You know, that could turn

(01:26:56):
around very easily on him. And I'm sure he was
more than aware of it, you know, yeah, careful, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:27:03):
Well, in Glenn Pace's In Glen Pace's case, he was
very much sidelined if he had a very unusual church
career after this memo was publicized. Let's just put it
that way, and all that people go and you can
actually even go find pictures of him pre nineteen ninety.
He was a very clever, very funny man, very endearing

(01:27:23):
and you can go find pictures of pre nineteen ninety
Glen Pace and then sort of watch what happened to him.
And I think this weighed really hard on him. Again,
that's just speculation that and I think going to that point,
here's what he had to say in the memo. He says,
the few priests leaders who have had to face these
issues are crying out for help because they don't want
to give their own opinions, and yet there is no
place to go for an answer. A bishop will go

(01:27:47):
to his state president who says he doesn't believe it
is happening and the member is just crazy. The state
president might go to an area presidencye who will react
in a similar way. And I think this is really critical.
He says. Most people are a afraid to surface it
to the first presidency for fear of getting the same
reaction and don't want to appear crazy themselves for asking

(01:28:10):
the question. Now again, if the first Presidency of the
Church of Jesus Christ of Motory, States is supposed to
be representing Jesus Christ, why are people afraid to go
talk about an important topic like this? And I think
this little sentence gives us a lot more insight into
how the church is actually run than Glenn Pace ever

(01:28:31):
intended for it to give us. But the truth is
in the church. And as a former priesthood holder, right
or you know, purportedly like as it like, I will
tell you that my observation of forty five years in
the church, that this is exactly how it is. People
are afraid to talk about things. People are afraid to

(01:28:55):
bring up the problems that they see because of this.
Follow the prophet mantra that has been drilled into their
heads from the moment that they were born, right.

Speaker 1 (01:29:05):
Out your doubts. Don't doubt your faith, man.

Speaker 2 (01:29:08):
You got it. And so yeah, yeah, I just but
I think that grenn Pace gives us some insight into
the fact that this is not just in the ward
level or the stake level. Like the presiding bishop, he's
not the holy Bishop. He's in the presenting Bishop. Brick
is telling him, Look, people are afraid to come and
talk to you about this, And I think the relevant
question there is why these are the men who are

(01:29:31):
supposed to represent Jesus Christ. Are you afraid to go
ask Jesus Christ questions? Like if you're a disciple of
Jesus Christ, right, Like I all I know is that
as a disciple of Jesus Christ, I'm not afraid to
ask Jesus Christ anything like. That's one of the main
reasons I'm a disciple of Jesus Christ is to try
to have access to some source of information. When I

(01:29:53):
need it, I can go and ask. If I'm afraid
to ask it, Well, that's like that's a different thing, right, Well.

Speaker 1 (01:30:00):
What does he say? Like he says, let them come
to me, you know, like you and it shall be
open to you. Yeah, you mean like Joseph Smith did,
like and you could flip that on them, but you
know how that would be for us, Like people don't
understand that haven't been in it, Like you are a
look so down upon if you dare to tread that line, right,

(01:30:21):
Like I used to do it all the time with
race with my grandparents because they were older, and I'm like,
you know, what what about this? What about that? You know,
I'm messed with them, But like they just they didn't
want to address it because they were following the prophet,
you know, until they weren't.

Speaker 2 (01:30:37):
Yeah, yeah, Okay, I could talk about that for a
very long time because I've had so many experiences with
people who've told me that as long as I'm obedient
to the prophet, even if what the prophet tells me
is wrong, I will be blessed for my obedience.

Speaker 3 (01:30:50):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:30:50):
And you know, I just I have bad news for
that group of people because that is about the most
unscriptural thing that I've ever heard in my life. And
I really worry about those people who have been led
to believe that that's true by the very profits that
they're following, right, But anyway, we're not gonna I'm not
gonna I'm gonna resist.

Speaker 1 (01:31:09):
We'll resistance. Satanic are not Satanic. We are supposed to
be there for our brothers and sisters. And this doctrine
allows no grace to people that have had damage that
they can't even control. Like that's crazy to me.

Speaker 2 (01:31:24):
So yeah, yeah, okay, So we've gone through the memo,
We've gone through sort of what was going on before
the memo came out. Now let's look at how the
church handled it after the memo came out. So in
nineteen ninety two, the New York Times and the Chicago
Tribune and some other places get a hold of this
in ninety one and ninety two, and so the church

(01:31:45):
respond Don Fave, who is the church spokesman at the
time for Gordon B. Hinkley, comes out and he acknowledges
the existence of the Strengthing and the Church Members Committee, which, ironically,
people were more up in arms about the fact that
there was a church committee spying on people. Then the
nature of the Pace memo itself, right, which tells you

(01:32:05):
something about some things, but it's just as what it was.
And so the Times is running a story about this,
you know, this secret committee in the shadow government housed
at the church office building. And the Faith comes out
and they just make this app out of whole cloth.
And I know, for people who don't have never been
a member of the church, this probably won't make a

(01:32:25):
lot of sense. But for those who have been a
member of the church, I hope that they can see
through what happened here. So the Faith comes out and
says that the committee will quote receive complaints from church
members about other members who have made statements that quote
conceivably could do harm to the church. So let's just
pause there for a second. Does this remind you of
anything hearty of a group of people who have like

(01:32:50):
it's like a group of people who are supposed to
be brothers and sisters who are snitching on each other
to the governing body. If somebody is saying something that
they think might conceivably right, that's a really interesting reasl
word right, we can decide if it can conceivably hard
to harm to the church. But I mean, it's almost
unbelievable that the favorite come out and say this, because

(01:33:12):
I mean, what you're really looking at is gestapo, right,
what you're really looking at. Yeah, you're looking at it
at one group of saints snitching on another group of saints,
and then this shadow government installed at the church office
building in Salt Lake, then pushing information back down to
the local leader that according to the faith. He says, however,

(01:33:34):
the committee neither makes judgments nor imposes penalties, as though
a state president who gets a letter with a piece
of information from an area authority isn't going to act
upon it when he gets that information from the area authority.
I mean, this is really one of those give me
a break moments, right, Yeah, because there's not a state

(01:33:56):
president in the church who is going to push back
against an area authority because if he does, he will
get released from his calling, as many have. So maybe
I should refrain that there are state presidents and bishops
who will push back. But what every state president has
learned is if you do that, you will be released
from your calling if you push back against a priesthood

(01:34:16):
holder above you sending you information about somebody and your congregation.
So the church can come out here until they're blue
in the face and pretend say that they only are
in most penalties and from a strictly legalistic perspective, that
might be true, but the reality is that they're using
the bully pulpit and they're purported moral authority to gather

(01:34:39):
information on church members and then push it back down
the pipe and pressure local church leaders to do things
like excommunicate members who could conceivably do harm to the church.
My other problem with this is simply who's doing more
harm to the church, the people covering up ritual abuse

(01:34:59):
or the people talking about it. Right, And I'm sure
you can sort of hear the frustration creeping up in
my voice because this is very much my story, so
everybody can understand that I have a bone to pick here,
right that I would often ask my stake president, who
is it attorney the church? A guy giving two million
dollars to Gordon Bowen who's been twice accused of child abuse,

(01:35:23):
like millions and millions of dollars to make movies about
my Gorden, say, or Jesus Christ or me talking about
the fact that m Russell Ballard is getting millions of
dollars to Gordon Bowen to make a movie, and yet
in their mind I'm the one doing damage to the church.
I just you know, I personally don't think that holds
a whole lot of water, which is why I always

(01:35:44):
say that in terms of my communication, I just look
forward to my Supreme Court hearing that will not be
held on this side of the veil. We'll sort of
see how that all works itself out over time, I
guess for that. Here is the justification that the Church gives.
Once it's found out that they have a gestapo operating

(01:36:07):
from sal Lake City, they actually try to tie it
to the standard works, and they say the First Presidency
issues a statement. It says, the Church of Jesus Christ
of Motterday Saints was established in eighteen thirty following the
appearance of God the Father and Jesus Christ to the
prophet Joseph Smith in Upstate New York. This sacred event
heralded the onset of the promised restitution of all things.

(01:36:29):
Many instructions were subsequently given to the prophet, including section
one hundred and twenty three of the Doctrine and Covenants.
And they quote it. It says, and again we would
suggest for your consideration the propriety of all the saints
gathering up a knowledge of all the facts and sufferings
and abuses put upon them. And this is my big
eye roll moment, because so Doctrine and Covenants one twenty

(01:36:53):
three is actually a big part of my personal story,
which I don't talk about very much. When there was
abuse in my family, were counseled by a general authority
of the church. He asked us to study doctor and
in Covenant section one twenty three very very carefully, and
so I have. I did, And what I can tell
you is that trying to arrest the scriptures and justify

(01:37:13):
the strengtheny the church members committee using Doctrine and Covenant
section one twenty three has got to be one of
the most ridiculous things I've ever seen in my life.
Like Doctrine and Covenants one twenty three has nothing to
do with church members snitching on each other so that
church leaders can push it back down the pipe and
have members excommunicated. It is so far outside of like

(01:37:34):
what you would consider traditional church governance and traditional church
discipline that I mean, honestly, the only thing that can
can keep a person from understanding this is ignorance, right,
because all you have to do is go read the
historical background of why section one twenty three was given
to understand it that it has nothing to do with
studying a committee inside of a shadow government housed out

(01:37:57):
of Salt Lake City for the purpose of spy non
church members. But that's how they justified it, right, And
the only way I know how to makes sense of
that is really that again, you've got a bunch of
guys who made deathos to protect each other, right, including
Nelson who's member of Sigma Kay and Scull and Bones.
And this is how they decide. They decide to play
some ward games and rest the scriptures in order to

(01:38:19):
justify this shadow government that they set up, including the
Gestapo part of it. Right, Yes, all right, why does
this matter today? Right? A lot of people will come
at me on Twitter and say, well, oh you like
all you answers, all you want to talk about is
things that happened so long ago. Well, here's sort of

(01:38:41):
the rest of the story, right, this is the Paul
Harvey moment of our show where we get to tell
the rest of this story. So, as you remember, back
in nineteen eighty six, wrestler Nelson was made aware of
a pedophile ring in Bountiful, Utah that purportedly involved his
daughter and son in law, and a man by the
name of Bill Carsonson. As I mentioned earlier, Bill carson
and had been abusing children since the nineteen sixties but

(01:39:02):
had never been disciplined by the church. But in eighty six,
when Russell Nelson becomes aware of it, it's very important
that he squashes it because he had just been been
called as an impostle and it would really be problematic
if it came out. And so despite the fact that
there was a diagnosed pedophile involved in that Bountiful abuse ring,
Russell and Nelson puts his thumb on the local leaders,

(01:39:24):
including the son of a Skull and Bones member who's
serving as a state president in the Bountiful I can't
remember the name of the stake right now, right off
the top of my head, but the state president is
the son of a Skull and Bones member, and he
puts pressure on all the local leaders not to discipline
anybody involved in that pedophile, including the diagnosed pedophile Bill Carstenson. Well,

(01:39:46):
unfortunately for Russell Nelson, Bill Carstensen wasn't done abusing yet.
He met a woman who was a member, not a member,
It was an employee of the church office building who
worked in the membership department and Bill Carston's and asked
this woman to marry him. Before they got married, the
first wife of Bill Carsonson came to this woman who

(01:40:07):
worked for the church and told her that Bill was
a pedophile because he had abused all of their children.
This woman, who worked at the church membership office had
access to Bill Carsonson's records and saw that they had
not been annotated because he had never been disciplined by
the church because Russell and Nelson had put his thumb
on the investigation, and so she chose to marry Bill Carstenson.

(01:40:29):
They went on to have several children, all of whom
Bill Carstenson abused. Okay, so it took another twenty years
or so, but eventually this group of children who had
been abused and the mother who had worked for the church.
So another piece of this, just very quickly is that
it's not just Nelson who knew about this. This woman

(01:40:50):
who married Bill Carsonson was very confused because Bill Carstenson
was being given a temple divorce without the church leaders
following the policies and procedures around temple ceiling cancelations, which
she knew because she was an employee of the church's
membership department. So she started asking questions at the church
office building, and it got to the point where Narlie

(01:41:13):
Maxwell reached out to her bishop and told her bishop
she needs to stop. She's putting us in a really
difficult position and she needs to stop. Well, she didn't stop.
So it got to the point where she got a
letter from the first Presidency of the church telling her
if you don't stop, we are going to excommunicate you
for pressing this issue. Okay. So at that point, like

(01:41:35):
many church members do and would do, she let it
go and she decided to place her faith in these
fifteen men that we can suppose of the trust completely.
And for doing that, she ended up with several abuse children,
including one by the name of Justin Houman. So the
thing about Justin Huyman is that he disappeared in twenty
seventeen from Salt Lake City, so only seven years ago.

(01:41:57):
Justin Harmon lived a very difficult life. And although his
name is legally Justin Huyman, what people need to understand
is that his real name is actually Justin Carstons and
I spelled it wrong. Now that's my fault. It's actually
Ian At the end but his actual he's actually Justin Carstenson,
and they changed his name because of the abuse that happened,
and because she went on to marry a good man

(01:42:19):
and they wanted him. They wanted this boy to have
the name of the good man that she had married, apparently,
or at least a decent man. I don't know the
full story there, but Russell and Nelson's behavior in nineteen
eighty six directly led to the disappearance of Justin Huyman,

(01:42:41):
who disappeared at a time when he was trying to
get help in treatment because he had become addicted to drugs,
probably partly because of the abuse he suffered as a kid.
Right we know that that's a very likely outcome for
children who are abused, is that they end up addicted
to drugs. And so he was in treatment where what
do you do in treatment? You talk about your past.

(01:43:02):
And in November twenty seventeen, Justin Hoyman was in treatment
a hop, skip and a jump away from the church
office building and he disappeared in late November of twenty seventeen.
And it's been looked at as a missing person's case,
and it's been looked at as a potential homicide case.
But in the end, nobody knows what happened to Justin.
He's missing and presumed dead at this point and to

(01:43:23):
this day, like in July, you can find an article
online of Justin Hoyman's family going to concon I think
is what it's called in Las Vegas and begging people
to help them find out what happened to Justin. Okay,
So this isn't a story that ends in nineteen eighty six.
It's not a story that ends in nineteen ninety. It's
not even a story that ends today, because Justin Hoyman

(01:43:45):
is still missing. Okay. As part of that I mentioned
Jim Jardine. What happens is that Justin siblings and his
mother and some other victims of Bill Carsonsen get together
and decide that they're going to sue Bill uh not Bill,
They're going to sue Brandon Miles, Brenda and Dick Miles
in twenty eighteen, and the church gets wind of this

(01:44:08):
and they go on a public like on a media blitz.
So on the day that the case is filed, the
church already has articles set up to go into the
Desert News and the Salt Tribute and so on and
so forth. And what they do is they choose to
paint the Branda Miles abuse, the Dick and Brandon Miles
abuse a lleged abuse. Excuse me as part of satanic

(01:44:30):
panic and part of implanted memories because Barbara Snow, the
therapist was and was involved with the therapy of these children. Now,
Barbara Snow is a topic under olive to herself and
I've never talked because I just don't think Barbara Snow
is all that important in the case, to be honest

(01:44:50):
with you. The fact of the matter is is that
children who were abused by Bill Carsonson had to have
surgeries to repair the damage that Bill did to their bodies.
So I'm not really all that interested in whether not
they had implanted memories from Barbara Snow. What I'm interested
in is justice for these children who ended up having
to have surgery because of the abuse done at least
by Bill Carsonson and allegedly by Brenda Miles and Dick Miles.

(01:45:13):
But the church and their skull and bones lawyerage In Jardine,
who practices for one of the biggest law firms in
Salt Lake City, decide to present this as a case
of satanic panic and implanted memories. And not only that,
but they actually end up either making a mistake or
lying in their brief that goes to the Utah Supreme

(01:45:35):
Court where they claim that the Utah Supreme Court reversed
a conviction that arose from one of doctor Snow's patients
in the Hadfield case, which is not what happened at all.
What happened in the Hadfield case is that Hadfield had
filed a motion, and that motion was that the court
decided that that motion needed to be reconsidered. But there

(01:45:57):
was never a conviction that was versed in the Hadfield case.
And Jim Jardine, if he's a super lawyer, which he
claims to be on the website that for the law
firm that he's a part of, should definitely have known that.
Beyond that, the clerks and the judges who reviewed that
case should have definitely known because it was a case
that they had heard, and they should have seen immediately
that this claim had been made and was a false

(01:46:20):
claim inside the legal brief that Jim Jardine presented to
the Utah Supreme Court. But somehow, some way, nobody noticed
and after a couple of years, which is a very
long time for the Uta Supreme Court to hold onto
this case. After a couple of years, they sided with
Chardey in his argument. And what happened there is that

(01:46:42):
you mentioned the Statute of Limitations in Utah. So what
happened is that the legislature agreed with you. They agreed
that it was a bad lot and so they had
extended the Statute of limitations, which is why these people
were allowed to sue Brandon Miles and Dick Miles in
the first place. And Jardine came in and argued was
that they had that the legislature had taken away a

(01:47:04):
vested right of perpetrators and that they that the Mileses
couldn't be sued because they had a vested right because
the Statute of limitations had run out on their case.
And when the Utah Supreme Court decided to take Jim
Jardine's side on this argument, what ended up happening is

(01:47:24):
an entire generation of Utah sexual abuse or excuse me,
not just sexual abuse, but Utah abuse victims lost a
right that had been given to them through their legislature.
Because a skull and bones lawyer and a skull and
bones prophet needed to protect the image and assets of
a church because eventually Russell and Nelson was going to
get pulled into this case. And because the UTAH, because
the corporation known as the Church of Jesus Christ Motterday

(01:47:46):
stints as a corporate soul, all of the assets of
the church belong to Russell and Nelson while he is
the president of that or the incumbent is what they
call it, of that corporation. And because he had acted
to cover up the abuse of the diagnosed pedophile six,
all of the assets of the church were in play
in this case if they couldn't get it thrown out.

Speaker 1 (01:48:06):
And so the Order of Enoch that was set up
through Joseph Smith. But yeah, he's said to never have
read those books because he's unlearned man. Yeah. And another
reason that my warrened Jeff lost it all, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:48:22):
Yeah, So they got the case thrown out through lawfare
and through some what I believe for dirty tricks and like.
And when you look at the history of that, I
mean you can see that there was a real struggle.
I mean, it took them two years to decide, and
that's very unusual for the UTA Supreme Court to hold
onto a case for two years, and it took him
that long, and I think, excuse me, I think there
was probably just some arm twisting going on. But eventually

(01:48:45):
they got the votes that they needed from the Utah
Supreme Court, and it wiped out the vest not the
vested it I'm using Jim Jardine language. It wiped out
the rights that had been given to Utah abuse victims
by their legislature for an entire generation of Utah victims,
all to protect the assets for abuse.

Speaker 1 (01:49:04):
I don't think there should be a time frame. You know,
what if you for burglary, great, for something else stupid, sure,
but this kind of stuff is heinous and it just
especially with the level like surgery and everything, like really,
are you are you kidding me? You know?

Speaker 2 (01:49:23):
Yeah, So, I mean just certainly one of the yeah,
one of the biggest complaints of the advocacy group, you know,
or the group of advocates who do this and the
lawyers is that the justice system seems highly tilted towards
the perpetrator. Right, because if you abuse a child and
then you set a statute of limitations for a few
years out, most abuse victims don't report their abuse until

(01:49:44):
they're well into their forties and fifties. Yeah, they don't
because of how harmful it is. So certainly, I again,
and this is a whole topic that and I'm not
educated enough to like really spend a ton of time
talking about it, but like, certainly there's a perception out
there amongst the ad can see and then those lawyers
who choose to fight for the victims that the entire

(01:50:05):
judicial system is really set up to protect predators. And
we just have to speculate as to why that would be.
But I would certainly agree with you that I don't
particularly understand why an individual who abuses another human being
ever gets to like walk away from that. I just
if it can be proven, it can be proven. And

(01:50:27):
I don't really care if eight years or ten years
or fifteen years has gone by. If you abuse the
child and it's thirty years later and it can be
proven that you abuse them, I personally believe that you
should pay the price for your crime. That's just yeah,
absolutely so a brin. What does this have to do
with today, Well, this battle continues to rage on, and

(01:50:49):
you can see that even the Chicago Tribune is updating
their articles right around the time that I'm getting involved
in publicizing this. So this is an article from the
Chicago Tribune that was originally published in nineteen ninety one.
But look, it was updated on August tenth, twenty twenty one,
at one oh one pm. So unfortunately, I went to

(01:51:11):
the wayback machine, and I don't have a copy of
the original articles, so I don't know what they did
to this article that it's important enough that thirty years
after the date of the original publication, they're going in
here and updating this article for whatever reason. Okay, So
I personally think that the church still has deep, deep

(01:51:32):
concerns about this story coming out in its fullness right
for good reasons, because there are real legal ramifications about
what happened. Right. So in addition to that, you've got
your skull and bones profit getting up in twenty twenty
two conference and talking about he gives a whole talk
about abuse, and one of the things he says is

(01:51:54):
I urge each of us to be alert to anyone
who might be in danger of being abused and to
act promptly to protect them. Okay, So here is the problem.
The people being abused in the Bountiful case are Russell
and Nelson's grandchildren. M okay, And it ends up that

(01:52:16):
one of his granddaughters ends up being mentored by an
artist by the name of Randall Lake who is listed
in the Handling abuse statements as a major player in
that lbs Church of Staton who's abusing people. So, by
all appearances, Russell and Nelson instead of protecting his granddaughter

(01:52:36):
after learning about potential abuse against his grandchildren, Instead of
protecting them, he sends his granddaughter off to be mentored
by a man listed in court documents as a child abuser.
And he won't address it. He won't answer as to
why that happened, but he's more than happy to get
up in front of a worldwide congregation and pretend that

(01:52:59):
he can. There is about abuse right well.

Speaker 1 (01:53:02):
And he should have double knowledge. He should know better
from the Pace memo. But also he should he's a
profit seer and revelator. He should know better. I'm sorry
I had to say that.

Speaker 3 (01:53:14):
Yeah, yeah, and it really does.

Speaker 2 (01:53:17):
Like wrestler, Nelson is hugely problematic for the church, hugely problematic,
and I mean lucky for them. He's one hundred years old.
He probably won't be around much longer. And as soon
as he dies, they can just say, oh, we don't
talk about the prophets who are dead, right like Alan Haney,
And we'll say it's not a comic book collection. These
things don't gain value over time, which is like a

(01:53:40):
weird thing to say, since we like have as a
book and then we call our scripture a book that's
purportedly a couple thousand years old, right like, But the
way that the church plays the game, or the way
that the corporation plays the game now is that once
that profit's dead, you don't have to talk about any
of the stupid crap that he did, right ands, Nelson
did a lot of stupid crat like his whole life

(01:54:02):
is full of a lot of stupid decisions whether he
wants to, and.

Speaker 1 (01:54:05):
Then he made a book about then he made a
book about it, then.

Speaker 2 (01:54:08):
He read about it for us, right yeah, so, but
the thing is for me is like for Russell Nelson
to get up in conference and pretend to care about
abuse victims after knowing all the things that he's done
over the last forty years and before that, right like,
it's really like and then so and then we get

(01:54:29):
up and say that they're a fifteen minute. We should
trust completely, which includes him, Like I'm just not. I'm
never going to trust him ever for any reason, because
his public persona is so different from his private life
that there's there's no chance I'm going to change me.

Speaker 1 (01:54:44):
You didn't even protect your own family, why would we
believe you're going to protect us? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:54:52):
So the last thing that I have is just this.
This is also a Russell M. Nelson quote, but it
actually comes from a talk that he gave right around
the time. It was at a regional representative seminar, and
it's around the time that he's involved in all this.
He says, how sorrowful must a brother or sister feel
when they think they are abandoned, when they think no

(01:55:14):
one cares. Perhaps it was this feeling that caused the
Psalmist to write, I looked on my right hand and beheld,
but there was no man that would know me. Refuge
failed me, No man cared for my soul. And my
message regarding this is simple. Russeller Nelson just spent his
hundredth birthday having the Guinness World Guinness Book of Records

(01:55:39):
set for the most number of people signing his birthday card.
But what he didn't do is get up and talk
about Justin Heyman, the kid who's missing, not a kid anymore.
He's what you know.

Speaker 1 (01:55:51):
But what he didn't do it is implication. Yeah, the
implications too with the Smart case, Like I know the
Smarts are weird wrote as well, but but like it
still led to not taking care of that situation.

Speaker 2 (01:56:05):
So Russell Nelson had opportunity after opportunity after opportunity to
share that he cared for the souls of abuse victims
during his ministry, and at no point can I find
a story where he did that. Instead, he's very interested
in throwing birthday parties where he can play piano and
wave and show everybody how great he is and tell

(01:56:27):
heartwarming stories and had Dennis World records set.

Speaker 4 (01:56:32):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:56:33):
Yeah, But what I never see from Russell and Nelson
is the ability to make good choices when abuse victims
are involved. And that would include all the way from
the eighties through the Pace Memo, all during the time
that he served on the Strengthening the Church Members Committee
and the Special Affairs Committee, you know, down through the
disappearance of Justin Hoyman. I never talked to a person

(01:56:56):
who ever told me that Russell Nelson treated them as
Jesus Christ would if they're a victim of abuse. And
so when he gets up in claims that there are
fifteen men that we can trust completely, everybody can make
their own decision about that. I simply will not be
making the decision to trust him because I know how
he's reacted in all these historical situations based on the
documentary evidence that we can find.

Speaker 1 (01:57:18):
Well, and it speaks volumes like Hamblin taking off and
leaving the country. I mean, you know, I mean, that's
a whole nother you know.

Speaker 2 (01:57:28):
Situation data in the country. Yeah, that's going to be
really interesting to see how that all plays out. But
like by everything that we can find, like those of
us who choose to research this, it's almost impossible to
find a situation where every victim is treated. And it's
very common to find situations where the perpetrators are protected

(01:57:51):
by very powerful, very influential people inside of Utah in religion, government,
the judicial system. Like I know, lawyers. I've spoken to
lawyers directly who tell me I will not take a
case in Utah because it's not worth my time, right right, Yeah,
And these are these are some of the most prominent

(01:58:11):
lawyers that do these abuse cases that involve ecclesiastical abuse.
You know, I've also been told by these lawyers that
the LDS Church is by far like the worst in
terms of like meeting the needs of abuse victims, Like
to the point where I had one of these lawyers
tell me, look, the Catholic Church finally got it, and
they'll write a letter of apology to a victim of abuse,

(01:58:32):
but the LBS Church will never write a letter of
apology to a victim of abuse.

Speaker 1 (01:58:37):
Yes, because also you have to like tell people that, like,
for these people that are high up when we're talking
about the Quorum of the seventy and the Quorum of
the twelve and the Prophet of the Church, they've all
had the Second Anointing. So they've not done anything wrong
for them because they didn't commit murder. So they've already
been judged, you know, and and their places may sure

(01:59:00):
in heaven. And so this goes into a whole nother
thing because you know, they aren't they don't have to
be sorry. We hope that people would have humanity enough
to be sorry if they did do something horrific or
stood by and let something happen, right, which is a crime,
by the way. Yeah, it's a crime to watch something

(01:59:21):
happen or know something happened and and be there just
being there. I tell my teenagers this, right like, you
can't be in the car if somebody gets pulled over
with drugs in the car, right Like, it's like a
no brainer, But not not when you're too rich to lose.

Speaker 2 (01:59:38):
Yeah, so and so, and it's touich to lose, but
also too big to fail. And again I talk about
that bail of protection, and I think that if so,
like one of the real fascinating things about research is
that what you'll find is that no leading member of
the church has ever had to testify in a case,
even if it's known that they are a witness, right,
And I really think that that goes to I think

(02:00:01):
that you talk about the second annointing, and I think
that the military industrial complex has actually like amplified that
delusion that those people are operating under those who've received
that second annoyting and think that they don't have to
be accountable. I think that the military industrial complex, including
the Central Intelligence Agency, has really amplified that delusion because

(02:00:21):
in all these cases where a normal person would be
forced to be accountable. The military investor complex has to
step in because if you get that leader of the church,
it's going to start tracing up into lines of government
and other things. And so it's it's very weird dynamic
where delusion is being like fed by those who could

(02:00:42):
care less about the delusion. They just need to protect
their own interests, right, which they see as above the
interest I don't think anybody in the military industrial complex
really cares about Mormonism or the Second Annointing, but for
whatever reason, they have to protect these people because they
have to protect their interests, which feeds the delusion of
the people who are the second and nineteen right, Well.

Speaker 1 (02:01:01):
They're so round together. I mean, yeah, look at how
many three letter agency things we have in Utah. Look
at how many you know, headquarters and different things and
all this stuff and the recruitment that goes on and
the Mormon mafia, and it goes into like we've already
you know, it gets really deep, the Rotary Club. It's

(02:01:23):
just it's all tied together, and at the end of
it all, if we pull the string, right, they're worried.
This is why they're worried. You can't pull the string
because the dress will come apart, you know, so or
the apron haha. But you know, we we know this.
And the sad thing is is that these are, like

(02:01:44):
you said, the people my grandma, your grandma, your family,
my family. They're looking to these people for the way
to live their life or the way, you know, tell
us what to do, tell us how to live, tell
us what to follow, tell us what not to say
or what to say. And at the end of the day,
it's so sad because it just makes everything a big mess,

(02:02:05):
you know.

Speaker 2 (02:02:05):
Yeah, well, I mean I'll just leave it. Like. The
last thing I'll say for today is this, Like I
always say that anybody can say anything, but actions reveal intent.
And what I see amongst the Mormons right now is
a lot of people who pay attention, pay very close
attention to what the leaders of the church say, but
almost no attention to the actions of the men who
are leading them. And I choose not to be silent

(02:02:27):
about that because I personally believe that those who get
caught up in that pattern of patterning their lives off
of the words of what other people say will be
held accountable. I think we owe it to ourselves and
to our God, to not simply stop at listening to
what people tell us, but to actually observing the lives
that they have lived. And I am deeply concerned about

(02:02:50):
my brothers and sisters who choose to follow these men
because of what they say, because what they say is
beautiful and what they say is appropriate. Like if you follow,
like if you're a rummy and you're following the head
lemming who's saying, hey, everybody follow me, this is going
to be a great journey, You're still going to end
up off the side of the cliff. And as much
as you want to believe that there's going to be
an angel there to catch you and bear you up,

(02:03:12):
unfortunately there's probably not going to be, and you're just
going to be a Lennon that falls off the side
of the cliff following the voice of somebody who knows
that they're beating you off a cliff and is choosing
to do that. So I choose not to be silent,
right or wrong. But that's my choice, and all I'm
more than happy to be accountable for that decision.

Speaker 1 (02:03:29):
Well, and I'm grateful that there are people like you,
and you know, we've got to do this together and
get it out there because, like you said, look how
long it was buried, even to a supreme court level.
Like how sad that someone like I can't imagine that granddaughter, right,
like I can't imagine like all these people that have

(02:03:51):
been involved, or the kid that's gone, you know, all
these things that have happened, and they just sit back
and what sit on their mount olympus, you know, Oh,
like so disgusting to me, right, so disgusting. And you know,
you you may think your God's here or you may
think your God's there, but I'll tell you one thing

(02:04:11):
is Jesus came here and spoke against people exactly as
that the Pharisees and the Sadducees. And this needs to
get back to reality of ten commandments and right and wrong,
like screw the rest of it, you know, like it
has to go there first because what are we doing
to each other? It needs to you know.

Speaker 2 (02:04:33):
What are we doing? Really? What are we doing to
our children? Like I'm going to be dead in a
few years, right, like I got maybe forty fifty years,
but like, what are we doing to our children and
our grandchildren? If we don't speak up about this and
we don't talk about it, so I think they.

Speaker 1 (02:04:47):
Can happen to them.

Speaker 2 (02:04:49):
Yeah, yeah, I think it's worth it.

Speaker 1 (02:04:51):
Yeah, I think so, And I think the work you
do is really important. Will you remind everybody once again
where they can find all this information?

Speaker 2 (02:05:00):
Absolutely so at lbs abuse on Twitter and lbsabuse dot
info on the Worldwide Web, and we'd be happy to
have you along for the ride.

Speaker 1 (02:05:10):
Amazing. Well, I appreciate this so much, and this in
regards to everything. Usually I am backed up, but this
is going out today, It will go out tonight because
of everything that happened just barely with the list. I
think that list might be interesting and could well we'll
find out what Diddy's list says, right, so I think

(02:05:33):
it could prove to be interesting. Plus, this is sketchy
information as far as I don't want to sit on it, right, Like,
it's not something that you want to hold because it's
got to get out before they can silence people. So
this will be coming out today. We did film this today,
So I just think it's super important in general to

(02:05:53):
have it out and to the people because you need
to know what's going on, and you know, we all
have a part to play, and every member needs to
be aware of that, and even and ex members and
current members and non members. I mean, this just is
important on a whole level for humanity. Like we don't

(02:06:14):
continue Babyloni and Canaanite crap anymore. Let's stop that because
it's just hurting people. And you know, I just don't
feel like that's what we're supposed to do. I mean,
even if you don't believe in God, there's a part
in each one of us that knows right from wrong.

Speaker 2 (02:06:31):
Period.

Speaker 1 (02:06:32):
So people, you everyone for watching. Bye.

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