November 22, 2024 • 43 mins
Kalyn Johnson Chandler discusses the transformative moments in her career that led her from practicing law to launching a lifestyle brand and founding Effie’s Paper. Kalyn shares the risks she took, the challenges she faced, and the advice she has for other aspiring entrepreneurs. Hear Kalyn talk about balancing creativity and strategy while growing her business, and what her plans are for the future.
Have a question or comment? Email us at ungovernablewomen@gmail.com.
Books mentioned in this episode: The E-Myth by Michael Gerber and The BAP Handbook: The Official Guide to the Black American Princess by Kalyn Johnson, Tracey Lewis, Karla Lightfoot, and Ginger Wilson.
Portia Mount on LinkedIn
Tiffany Waddell Tate on LinkedIn
Effie’s Paper Website
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Ungovernable Women pod.
Today we're joined by KaylinJohnson-Tandler, the creative
force behind Effie's paper.
Kaylin has transformed herpassion for stylish, functional
stationery into a thrivinglifestyle brand that speaks to
the modern, ambitious woman Witha background in law and luxury
(00:20):
goods.
Kaylin made the bold move tolaunch her own company, named in
honor of her grandmother, effie.
Her journey from corporateAmerica to entrepreneurship
embodies the spirit of forgingyour own path and embracing the
power of pivots.
Kaylin's story is one ofreinvention, resilience and
redefining success on her ownterms.
Let's dive into her world ofcreativity, business and
(00:42):
unapologetic ambition.
Kaylin, welcome to the pod.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Thank you for having me.
I'm delighted to be here.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Kaylin, I really want to double click on the pivot.
I'm curious about what thetipping point was to push you to
leave law and launch alifestyle brand.
Was there a moment, a scenarioor a situation that made you
make that leap?
Speaker 2 (01:06):
There wasn't a moment , a scenario or a situation that
made you make that leap.
There wasn't a moment per se.
I would say that I just like,unfortunately, many women, I hit
the glass ceiling at the lawfirm and it became clear that I
wasn't going to make partner,wasn't going to make partner,
(01:29):
and so my options were to staywhere I was, to lateral to
another law firm and hope that Iwould make partner, or lateral
to another law firm and go in asa partner, and I did.
I started down the path ofoption three, got the offer and
then completely freaked out andwas like I don't think I want to
(01:50):
do this.
I mean, should I do this?
What am I doing?
And had conversations with somefriends, with my then boyfriend,
now husband, and a friend ofmine said you've got all of
these creative outlets and ideas.
If you take the leap, the netwill appear.
(02:11):
And, for whatever reason, onthat particular day that
resonated with me and I decidedto trust my gut and jump.
And, as one of my besties said,you know what, if you jump and
there is no net or you cannotfigure it out, the law is not
going anywhere.
(02:31):
You can always go back topracticing law, and so I knew
that I kind of had that in myback pocket and so I left the
practice of law, I took sometime off and just sat still and
really just was regular for aminute, like I wasn't stressed
out about having my BlackBerryand being on calls and, you know
(02:57):
, having a vacation interruptedbecause something came up at
work and while I was sittingstill I decided I was going to
start a fashion styling businessfor busy professionals, because
that's what I had been doing,kind of as a side hustle, and so
I started that when I came outof my stillness, did that for
(03:20):
about a year, I would say.
Did that for about a year, Iwould say.
And as much as I loved fashionand style, what I quickly
learned is that I did not lovehelping people get dressed for a
living.
It was very stressful becausewe all have body conscious
issues.
No matter how small or big youare, tall or short or whatever
(03:44):
the case may be, we're all alittle bit insecure, and so part
of my job also became helpingpeople feel good about
themselves in their bodies, andthat wasn't quite what I had
signed up for.
So fast forwarding.
I'm in this business that I'mnot quite loving.
I'm in this business that I'mnot quite loving, also planning
(04:11):
my wedding working with agraphic designer in London whose
printers were in India.
And we were getting marriedaround or just before monsoon
season, and so she said to melook, I can get your invitations
printed in India.
We were doing like thesespecial, fancy kind of
Indian-like wedding invitations.
She said, but the collateralyou're going to have to find
(04:31):
somebody in New York to do.
And I found someone and throughthat experience of art
directing she and her graphicdesign team and then working
with this production guy, it waskind of like I love stationary,
I've always loved stationary.
Maybe this is a sign, maybe Ishould have a stationary company
(04:52):
.
And one thing led to another,and here we are.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
That's amazing I also want to name.
There's nothing regular abouttaking a break and then
launching a business.
It is all very amazing to meand inspirational.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
There isn't.
But one of the things I reallylove that you did, kaylin, was
you know, and I think we'rehearing this when we talk to
other women entrepreneurs is thefirst thing they start isn't
necessarily where they land, sothat and so giving yourself
permission to iterate, trythings, say you know what, I
don't really like that or that'snot really, I can't make money
(05:29):
enough money at this, or youknow to your point like this is
not the kind of work I want todo every day, is, I think,
really revealing, and I hopepeople, I hope our listeners,
hear that you know it's likegive yourself permission to try
things out and see if it works,see how it, see how the shoe
fits, uh, and then go from there, um, and so I I want to dig in
a little bit more.
So you launch effie's paper justtalk about the inspiration for
(05:53):
naming it after your grandmotherand kind of just the, because
you've gone in a reallyinteresting trajectory too with
the company, now starting withstationary and now into, like so
many other lifestyle kind of um, home accents, apparel, etc
we've, we've, um, we've done alot of pivots and um, you know,
(06:14):
you got to kind of just rollwith the punches.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
So I named the company when I, when I had my
aha moment, I was literallysitting at my desk writing thank
you notes and I had my personalstationery, I had wedding
stationery and then I had beengifted a lot of stationery for
an organization I had justbecome a member of and the only
(06:37):
stationery that I loved was mywedding stationery that I had
helped to, art direct.
And I just kind of looked up,had my aha moment and the name
Effie's Paper came to me.
And the reason incorporating mygrandmother was important to me
is because my grandmotherfostered my love of paper and
(06:59):
stationery, handwritten notes,everything kind of in the realm
of what it is that I'm doing now.
She worked for a greeting cardcompany when my sister and I
were little and we had a cabinetin my grandparents' family room
filled with greeting cards andstationery and wrapping paper.
(07:20):
And you know, when you'relittle you don't know, you
assume that everybody is livingand doing the things in the
exact same way that you and yourfamily are.
So I didn't know that that wasspecial, or I just didn't know
that other people didn't have astationary cabinet, you know,
and we practiced our penmanshipand I had pen pals that I wrote
(07:42):
to all over the world and I hadmy friends in Jack and Jill that
I wrote to.
So that was just sort of mynorm and when I thought I should
have a stationery company itjust seemed natural to name it
after my grandmother.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
I love that.
I want to just maybe pivot toanother question, which is your
customer who is the Effie'spaper customer?
Speaker 2 (08:09):
My target is someone who's pretty much like myself.
When I started the company,part of what pushed me was that
I wasn't finding paper productsthat spoke to me and I felt like
, if I was, if I felt that way,there had to be other people out
there feeling the same way.
I wanted something that had alittle bit more edge, perhaps a
(08:29):
little bit more color.
There was a lot of pastel, alittle bit more motivation, and
so my target is really someonewho is looking for something
that's outside of the norm, ifyou will.
You know she's anywhere between25 and probably 55.
(08:50):
She's a coffee drinker, she's aletter writer, she's a note
taker, she's really good atmaking a to-do list and ticking
off the box.
You know she's someone who'sgot some discretionary income
and is okay treating herself.
You know we all spend our moneyin the way that works best for
us.
My girl is okay spending $24for a notebook because that
(09:14):
makes her feel good, and whenshe pulls it out at her meeting
and it says Black Girl Magic onit and she's seated at a
conference table with all whitepeople and you know nine times
out of 10 white men she's gotthat motivation there.
She's got her girl gang.
(09:35):
You know kind of cheering herthrough and you know any slights
or perceived slights thathappen in the meeting or just if
she needs a boost of confidence.
That notebook, just looking atthat cover, is a reminder for
her to stand her ground, stateher worth and move forward in
(10:02):
this world that she's is a partof for the time being.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
I feel like you've been following me around in my
workday as you describe thisideal girl.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
Because I used to be you in your workday.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
And I may or may not wear my HVIC socks on certain
Zoom calls, just so you know.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Exactly that's what I'm talking about.
Speaker 3 (10:26):
So, Kaylin, I'm really curious For many of our
listeners who are aspiringentrepreneurs.
They are either about to launchsomething new or they are newly
minted in this space.
What is a piece of advice youwould have given yourself when
you were first starting out, ifyou could do it over again?
Speaker 2 (10:47):
There's so many.
I'm going to hone in on two, Ithink.
The first is you just don'tknow what you don't know and you
have to give yourself grace togrow into the role of being an
entrepreneur.
You know, when I first startedout, I was really uncomfortable
(11:09):
calling myself a CEO.
I don't know why.
I just didn't feel right.
I don't know it, just that washard for me.
So you don't know what youdon't know.
And coupled with that is if Ihad to, if I were able to start
(11:31):
all over again, I think one ofthe things I would do early on
is invest in a credible coach,mentor, accountability partner,
someone who has already donewhat it is that I was hoping to
do and who could kind of hold myhand and help me navigate and
(11:54):
help me avoid some of thepitfalls that I've fallen into.
You know, just because you'rebuilding the plane as it's
flying oftentimes.
You're building the plane asit's flying oftentimes and what
I now know is that that is oneway to do it, but you do not
have to do it that way.
Speaker 3 (12:11):
That's good.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
Kaylin, you talk about pitfalls and you know.
One of the things we know isthat the lifestyle, the industry
that you're in, is supercompetitive, not when you
started like.
You've been in business now forabout a decade a little bit
more than a decade and therewere even fewer black creatives
such as yourself.
Now.
You probably helped inspiremany, many more coming up.
(12:35):
But I'm just curious, as youthink about some of those
challenges, especially relevantto just even your startup mode,
are there challenges that wereunique to you as a Black
entrepreneur in this lifestyleindustry or just, you know, even
not necessarily as a Blackentrepreneur, but just in
general breaking into thisparticular industry?
Speaker 2 (12:57):
You know yes.
Short answer yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
What are those that stand out?
I guess maybe the ones thatstand out for you stand out for
you most.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
Well, I would say stationery, the paper industry
has historically been dominatedby white women and up until very
recently there have not beenfolks who look like us making
you know in the decision-makingposition or in the maker
(13:27):
position.
And so a great way toillustrate what I was up against
when I first started is I did atrade show, one of the popular
trade shows.
It was called the NationalStationery Show.
It doesn't exist anymore.
It's folded into something else.
And I remember havingconversations with other
(13:50):
business friends who were alsocontemplating doing trade shows
in different lanes, you know,about whether or not we should
hire white salespeople.
So that was kind of the firstsplash Actually doing the
National Stationery Show.
And I had one of the youngladies who was working with me
(14:13):
at the time in the booth with me.
She happened to be white and,you know, maybe was all of 20 or
21.
I think she was still incollege at the time.
A white woman came up to thebooth, beeline to her and
started asking her questionsabout the brand and she looked
(14:36):
at the lady like the lady wascrazy and she said you should
probably talk to my boss that'sher right there.
And the lady was so embarrassedthat she just scurried off, and
that's not the only time thathappened at that trade show or
(14:56):
other trade shows.
So I think it's different todaybecause there are many more
women of color in the space.
I think there are even a few ofus who are in some
decision-making positions, andthe world is very different
(15:17):
post-2020, summer of 2020, thanit was prior to 2020.
So, yeah, it's been a veryinteresting ride 2020 than it
was prior to 2020.
Speaker 3 (15:28):
Excuse me, so, yeah, it's been a very interesting
ride.
Caitlin, I know I'm justmeeting you today, but it sounds
like you carry both sides ofyour brain all the time Hyper
creative, hyper methodical andstrategic right, and it's the
perfect pairing for being akick-ass entrepreneur.
Methodical and strategic right,and it's the perfect pairing
for being a kick-assentrepreneur.
(15:48):
I'm curious to know if thosemodes are ever in conflict.
When you're working andbuilding or designing or
dreaming Like, what does thattension feel like and how do you
manage it?
Speaker 2 (15:57):
Some days I do better than others.
It's hard.
I mean, as the business hasgrown, I've had to dedicate more
time and energy to the runningof the business versus doing the
creative stuff, which is, quitefrankly, what I really love,
and it feels like it's aconstant conflict.
(16:20):
What I try to do is set asideat least one day a week for
creativity, whether that'sideation, whether that's even
just like creating graphics forour newsletter, just the things
that I really enjoy doing.
I also do a lot of work withother small businesses large
(16:43):
businesses as well where I'mcreating product or concepts for
them, as they are trying tofigure out what kinds of
products they're going to offerand sell, and it really, at this
point, requires me to bestrategic with my calendar, and
(17:05):
so what I've learned to do isset aside days, like I try to
have a day for calls, I try tohave a day for creativity, I try
to have a day where I'm reallyavailable to my staff because I
know that they can.
My mantra usually is do what itis you can so that they help
(17:28):
them, help you.
You know, if somebody is saying, hey, can you review this or,
you know, can we talk this weekabout X, y, z.
If I don't review, if I don'tmake time, then they can't do
whatever it is they need to bedoing to help move the bus
forward.
So the days don't always go asI had planned and I don't always
(17:52):
get the things done that needto get done.
And I would say, quite frankly,probably the thing that takes
the backseat is the creativity,and I would say quite frankly,
probably the thing that takesthe backseat is the creativity.
(18:13):
That's probably one of the worstthings I think about
entrepreneurship is some of thethings that inspired you to jump
in, are the things that youhave to really fight for as you
keep going and growing.
Yes, and that's one of thosethings nobody tells you.
And and I don't you know thething is when you, when you
start off and you're so freshand you're so excited, people
tell you lots of things.
So I it's not fair to saythat's one of those things
nobody tells you.
Somebody may have mentionedthat to me, or more than one
(18:37):
person may have mentioned it tome.
I don't think I could hear itor receive it in the way that
they were hoping.
Yeah, it's just par for thecourse.
It's part of the territory.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Effie's Paper started out as a product-based company.
You started with paper goods.
You've evolved way beyond thatand this question is about risk
and scale and like how do youknow what to bet on in terms of
thinking about just expandingyour product line, the kind of
products like I wonder.
If you just talk, you knowthere's a lot of.
(19:15):
We have a lot of listeners who,I think, really look at people
like you and think I, I want tolike it looks so easy, you make
it look so easy, you're comingout with new products all the
time, but how are you decidingwhat to bring to your customers
and just talk about the risk andmaybe talk about a big risk you
(19:36):
took that didn't pan out andhow you handled it?
Speaker 2 (19:39):
Okay risk you took that didn't pan out and how you
handled it, okay, you know, Ithink one of the things what
happened to me that kind ofpushed me into the product space
a little bit sooner than I wasready for, quite frankly is my
website got hacked and I had totake a step back and, you know,
(20:00):
hire somebody to fix it.
And I was getting ready to go onvacation and was like you know
what?
I'm just going to stopeverything for a couple of
months and come back fresh.
And I named the companyintentionally because I had
always planned to have whatnots.
So, as I was taking this stepback, I really started to think
about what are the things that Iuse and enjoy on a daily basis
(20:25):
Coffee I'm a coffee drinker, socoffee mugs I'm the person who
gets to Target and that dollaraisle is exciting to me Me too
and it's like, oh, this is acute keychain and look at that
notepad and look at this.
And it's like, oh, this is acute key chain and look at that
notepad and look at this thataisle is my downfall.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
That aisle in Target when you walk in is my complete
and utter downfall.
Every time, Every time.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
So you feel me.
And so I just started to thinkabout the things that bring me
joy and I find exciting thatdon't break the bank as well,
but give you that little lift meup of, oh, I'm going to treat
myself, I'm going to do this.
So that's really how we started.
(21:09):
Adding new products in.
Notebooks were, I think, thefirst deviation from just
straight stationary, which madesense, and then notepads, and
then we did post-it notesstationery, which made sense,
and then notepads, and then wedid post-it notes and then, like
I said, I really like coffeeand so we added in ceramic mugs.
(21:30):
I'm a New Yorker, I'm runningaround a lot and I thought, well
, why should I be running aroundwith this cardboard cup when I
could have a reusable mug thatlooks like one, I would want to
carry cup.
When I could have a reusablemug that looks like one, I would
want to carry.
And if I want to carry it,presumably my customers are
going to want to have somethingvery similar.
And so it's definitely trialand error and you know, even
(21:54):
within categories.
So you know.
A question about what'ssomething that didn't go as well
as you had hoped With respectto our travel mugs, our Black
Girl Magic and our FuturistFemale mug like fly off the
shelves.
People love those.
I had this mug in my head.
(22:15):
I wanted the body to be pinkwith metallic gold stars on it.
I don't know why.
That's just what I had in myhead and you know, when I saw,
when I saw the prototype, it wasexactly what I wanted.
I was super excited we broughtit in and it just hasn't done as
well.
I don't know why.
(22:37):
You know it is what it is andthey're lessons you learn.
I mean, I wish I'm sure thereis a formula.
I don't have the formula.
I go a lot on my gut and whatmakes me feel good, like it?
Our tagline when we were juststationary was a stationary that
(22:58):
makes your heart leap andthat's still something I really
follow, Like when I seeprototypes from my manufacturers
.
If I get that like this is it,then I'm pretty certain it's
going to work.
Or when I'm designing on thecomputer screen and I, you know
I see the finished product, Iknow immediately this is it or
(23:20):
yeah, no, I got to start over,so it's definitely.
I've definitely gone with mygut.
You know, if I were to take astep back and think about it.
I don't know that I would havediversified as much as we have.
Some of it, you know, wasbecause it was COVID and the
(23:41):
world was shut down, so itbecame really easy to
manufacture t-shirts andsweatshirts and not so easy to
get notebooks and notepadsmanufactured.
So, you know, will I take outthe apparel?
(24:04):
Probably not just becausethat's a very easy lift for us,
but are there some productcategories that we're probably,
once we sell through, we're notgoing to bring back?
Yes, because oftentimes inthese scenarios what happens is
(24:25):
people get decision paralysis.
There's so much to choose fromthat they can't choose, and so I
know that happens at in-personevents, and we've gotten really
good about curating what we'rebringing, thinking about who the
audience of the event is goingto be, what we're going to bring
, what we're going to upsell.
That's a lot easier to do inperson than it is online, and so
(24:47):
part of what's going to happenonline is we're just going to
call.
Speaker 3 (24:52):
Who are these people that have difficulty making
decisions in their online cart?
That doesn't happen to me.
I'm just like I want that andthat and I'm going to put it in
my cart.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
I'm just putting it all in my cart.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
I'm going to put it all in my cart and just buy it.
You ladies are my favorite kindof customers.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
Yeah, we're just like it's pretty, I need this.
I need this.
I'll text her, I'll be like Ineed this.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
She'll be like I need this.
She'll be like no, you don't.
I'll be like, but I'm gettingit.
Well, kaelin, when you thinkabout the future of Effie's
paper and continuing to push theneedle and expand, are there
ways that you hope to inspirefuture women in this space or in
the entrepreneurial space morebroadly?
Speaker 2 (25:41):
Yes, actually.
I mean, one of the things thatreally has kind of hit home in
the past probably four to sixmonths is that I have garnered a
lot of information about beingan entrepreneur, about starting
a product-based business, andI've been fortunate in that I've
(26:04):
, over the course of time, met alot of female business owners
who are trying to navigate andfigure out how to make this
whole entrepreneurial world workfor them, and I think it's
different for all of us, right?
So one of the things that I amdoing now is I am doing
(26:28):
one-on-one coaching with some ofthe women that I've met along
the way, because there's just noreason to recreate the wheel,
and I've got this knowledge andinformation and it's exciting to
share it with someone and seethe light bulb go off and see
them.
(26:48):
I was having a conversationwith one of my clients yesterday
who switched.
She has a subscription company.
She switched platforms and lostabout half of her customers,
and so we were chatting about,you know, getting this customer
(27:11):
base back up, and so I said toher well, for the people who
didn't renew when you got tothis new platform, have you
reached out to them?
She said, well, I sent an emailand I said that's it.
And she said, well, got tofigure out how to do that.
And I said, at a minimum you'vegot at least call three of them
(27:49):
to find out.
You know, do they miss yoursubscription box?
And had you made it seamlessfor them to be into your new
platform, would they have stayedwith you and perhaps give them
a special discount for like thefirst three months or something
(28:09):
that they get back in with you?
And I just saw, you know, thelight bulbs go off, like, oh my
God, I could do that.
I didn't even think about itand I think we get so in our
heads that we can't see theforest for the trees, and so it
was great to see the light bulbsgo off for her in a way that
(28:32):
she saw a way forward versusfeeling continuing to feel stuck
.
I was like you have, you havecustomers, you just got to go
back after them.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
What I love too, kaylin, is like, especially over
this, you know, decade plus ofbeing a, you know, a business
owner, a CEO is now it probablyfeels very natural to you.
And but when you're newer inthat continuum, being an
entrepreneur, I know I am, andthere are things where I'm like,
oh my gosh, this is so hard.
And then I go and talk to amentor, they're like, no, just
(29:03):
do this, this and this.
And you're like, oh, yeah, Ican do that, I can do that, can
I?
Right, like you know I shoulddo that Right.
Well, yeah, you should if youwant to get paid.
But I think what I love is thatwhat I hear is that you started
the business really just kind oforganically with this
(29:24):
paper-based, with paper products, expanded.
Now you're moving into services.
Now you're it's what I'mhearing you say you're moving
into this consulting servicesfor people who are running, um,
you know, online-based productcompanies, and so I I'm curious
if you, as you look full circleback to where you, when you are
you surprised, like you startedas a corporate attorney, and I
(29:46):
want our listeners to hear thislike, because we often think
that where we start is where wewe're stuck.
We're stuck in a path, um andthat.
But you've proven, and what youdid in terms of especially
iterating your journey, thatwhere you start absolutely
doesn't have to be where you end.
And so I'm just curious likeare you look back, are you
(30:07):
surprised, are you just likewhat's the feeling there?
Speaker 2 (30:11):
Oh, I'm in shock.
You know again, you just don'tknow.
I mean, I didn't come from afamily of entrepreneurs.
You know, I grew up in the veryyou become a doctor, lawyer,
engineer, teacher, like this iswhat we do.
So it didn't occur to me that Iwasn't going to be a lawyer for
(30:34):
my whole life or I wasn't goingto be in the law policy world
in some way, shape or form.
I could have never envisionedany of this because it just it
didn't exist in my realm.
I think it's a little bitdifferent today, because we do
have the internet and you cansee that there are people doing
(30:59):
all kinds of things you know,many of whom are keeping their
their their main job, if youwill and are entrepreneurial on
the side, and sometimes thatentrepreneurial pursuit ends up
becoming the full thing.
Sometimes people are able tostraddle the fence, but when I
was coming up you you couldn'tsee beyond the people who were
(31:23):
in front of you or the peoplewho were around you.
So you know, had I had thebenefit of what today's young
people have the benefit of, Ithink I would be some kind of
logistics person.
Like, I went to see Beyoncelast summer and I was fascinated
(31:44):
by the set.
Speaker 1 (31:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
And the fact that they have three of those sets
and they travel and there issomebody whose job is to break
down, set up.
You know that all of that Iwanted to dive into.
I wanted to know, I wanted tolearn everything I could.
All of that I wanted to diveinto.
I wanted to know, I wanted tolearn everything I could about
(32:08):
the logistics behind the show.
You know how she came up withthe idea, how it was brought to
life and then how it's movedfrom place to place.
And, quite frankly, the firsttime I saw Cirque du Soleil I
saw the water show.
Or, oh, in Vegas, at halftime.
At halftime it's collegefootball season, but at
(32:31):
intermission.
At intermission, I had to leavethe theater, go to the
bookstore next door and buy abook, because I needed to
understand how they had thiswater tank under this theater
and how these people were diving.
You know, like 30 feet up.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
How are they doing this?
Speaker 2 (32:51):
Had I seen these sorts of things growing up,
that's probably what I wouldhave done.
Speaker 3 (32:57):
That's incredible.
Speaker 1 (32:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:00):
Okay, kaylin, this is the segment of the show that I
might be a little biased, but itis my favorite.
We love to ask guests a fewlightning round questions.
The only rule is that we don'twant you to overthink it.
We just want you to share thefirst thing that comes to mind.
Okay, and we'll just ask a few.
So we have recently rebrandedthe pie to ungovernable women.
(33:25):
What does being ungovernablemean to you?
Speaker 2 (33:30):
Well, do you want my real answer or my PC?
No, let's go with it.
No, this is lightning round.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
We want the real answer, we want the real answer.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
We're in a very hot political climate right now, but
what I immediately thought ofis get your hands off my body.
So that's in this moment, today, that's what ungovernable feels
like to me.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
So, kaylin, you are like one of my shopping guru
heroines, I think.
I always think like if kaylin'swearing it, it means people
will be wearing it like in thenext year and a half or so,
because you're kind of far out,you're.
You tend to be ahead of thetrend.
But I'm curious, um, and I whatI also love about your sense of
(34:22):
style is you have really goodhigh-low sense of style as well.
You buy high, but you also buylike kind of you know like
you'll buy the Zara as well,best purchase that you've made
recently under $150?
.
Well, these glasses, oh, thoseare very cute.
They're very cute.
Thank you, yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:41):
Thank you, but clothing-wise.
Or gadget it could be a gadgettoo.
Okay, the best gadget I havepurchased under.
I think it might've cost $20.
I'm going to see if I can showthis to you.
I'm totally messing things up.
Is this phone stand?
(35:01):
Oh yeah, hands down.
The best purchase I made duringCOVID.
Oh, I do not leave home withoutit.
It's always in my tote or mybackpack or my suitcase, because
that way I can work on mycomputer and I have my phone
right there as well.
That is definitely one of mybest, best purchases.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
I love that.
Speaker 3 (35:27):
What is a secret?
Unpopular opinion that you hold?
Speaker 2 (35:32):
I love this question are young people and I'm dating
myself a bit but that anyoneunder 30, particularly
(35:59):
African-American men and women,who are unsure about who to vote
for or whether or not theirvote counts, needs to get their
shit together.
Excuse my language, I'm justtired.
I am tired of well, you know, Ijust really don't know how I
feel, and or well, I just.
I mean, it's not really clearto me that my vote counts.
Then you know what?
Go back to your civics classand read the assignment you did
(36:23):
not read.
We live in a democracy.
Hopefully we will be in thatdemocracy.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
Hopefully.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
Come December 2024.
But if you're dumb behind,don't do your job.
We might not.
Actual and factual.
Yes, actual and factual.
Speaker 3 (36:42):
You know what I love it's like Tiffany.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
I love how people go on a tear with this question.
When we ask, like we're allpeople, it's like I don't know
if I should say this and thenthey just start like, wow,
people, really I love thisquestion.
Can people totally unload?
And you know, I think this andthis is the time.
Is there, um, is there a gift?
(37:04):
Kay Kaylin, you are a fabulousgift giver, I happen to know
this, but is there a gift thatyou find yourself a book,
especially that you findyourself gifting constantly or
recommending constantly?
Speaker 2 (37:20):
There is.
There is, I think every newbusiness owner or person, any
people contemplating starting abusiness, should read a book
called the E-Myth by Eric Gerber.
(37:42):
It is a relatively short bookbut it breaks down into
bite-sized chunks.
Excuse me, whatentrepreneurship is, and
particularly for those startingout.
He's very clear.
Like you're going to have to doall of the things.
I don't care what you read, Idon't care what you see.
When you start a business, youare going to do all of the
(38:04):
things, and that's notnecessarily a bad thing, because
in doing all of the things, youwill learn how you want things
done in your company.
Yeah, so that when you are in aposition to hire someone to do
those things, you can tell themhow to do it.
You know about how much time itshould take.
You can tell them how to do it.
You know about how much time itshould take.
(38:28):
And if you write all of thisdown as you are building things
out, you then have a manual thatyou can hand to them.
It can become a living documentthat they can embellish, but
it's also something they canopen, go to, so that they're not
always coming to you askingquestions Because the reason you
brought somebody in is to freeyour time up.
(38:49):
Your time is not freed up ifyou are constantly having to
hold somebody's hand.
So somebody recommended it tome when I started out and it
helped me really begin to thinkabout what it was going to mean
to start a business and how Iwanted my business to look and,
ultimately, what I wanted myrole in my business to be.
Speaker 1 (39:13):
I love that.
Speaker 3 (39:15):
So good.
I love to talk to entrepreneursabout the myth of just hire
someone to do all those things.
No, you need to be cashflowpositive, so you're going to
work really hard.
Speaker 2 (39:27):
Number one number one number one.
Speaker 1 (39:29):
We want to be cashflow positive.
Speaker 3 (39:33):
Yes, Kaylin thank you so much for joining us on the
pod today.
It has been delightful gettingto know you, learning more about
your story and also learning alittle bit more about your
unpopular opinions.
Speaker 1 (39:46):
And Kaylin before we go.
I have this.
I was looking on my bookshelfand I got this little.
I got this little blast fromthe past.
If for those who are onlylistening and not watching,
kaylin is co-author of the BAPhandbook, the Official Guide to
the Black American Princess.
This became a total cult book,and so I just and you know, you
(40:11):
published it in 2000, maybe2001,.
Somewhere around 2001.
And so I am curious are wegoing to, before you leave us
like, just don't leave ushanging is there going to be
some kind of revision to the BAPhandbook or any, or is it going
to be optioned for a movie atany point?
Just curious, if, if we can see, or if we might see another, a
(40:35):
different book from you.
Speaker 2 (40:37):
Well, with respect to the BAP handbook, we we've had
some conversations, we'll see.
You know, nothing is over untilit's over, so let's put that
out, let's put that out to theuniverse and see what happens.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
Let's see, okay, good deal.
Speaker 2 (40:55):
And I don't know.
You might see the grown-upversion of the BAP handbook and
hopefully you will also see somekind of book from me as well.
I don't know what exactly it'llbe, but I'm putting that out
there and hoping that by 2026,it'll be moving forward.
Speaker 1 (41:19):
So you feel like what I'm hearing you say is you feel
like you've got a book insideof you still taking shape, and
so we're gonna, we're gonna,we're gonna keep, we're gonna
keep tabs on you Because I thinkit'll be well and bring you
back for when you want your book, and that'll be a lot of fun.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
I'm gonna hold you to that.
Speaker 1 (41:36):
Caitlin Johnson Chandler, thank you so much for
being with us today.
It has just been a delight.
Speaker 2 (41:41):
Thank you, ladies, I truly appreciate it.
Welcome to the Ungovernable Women pod.
Today we're joined by KaylinJohnson-Tandler, the creative
force behind Effie's paper.
Kaylin has transformed herpassion for stylish, functional
stationery into a thrivinglifestyle brand that speaks to
the modern, ambitious woman Witha background in law and luxury
(00:20):
goods.
Kaylin made the bold move tolaunch her own company, named in
honor of her grandmother, effie.
Her journey from corporateAmerica to entrepreneurship
embodies the spirit of forgingyour own path and embracing the
power of pivots.
Kaylin's story is one ofreinvention, resilience and
redefining success on her ownterms.
Let's dive into her world ofcreativity, business and
(00:42):
unapologetic ambition.
Kaylin, welcome to the pod.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Thank you for having me.
I'm delighted to be here.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Kaylin, I really want to double click on the pivot.
I'm curious about what thetipping point was to push you to
leave law and launch alifestyle brand.
Was there a moment, a scenarioor a situation that made you
make that leap?
Speaker 2 (01:06):
There wasn't a moment , a scenario or a situation that
made you make that leap.
There wasn't a moment per se.
I would say that I just like,unfortunately, many women, I hit
the glass ceiling at the lawfirm and it became clear that I
wasn't going to make partner,wasn't going to make partner,
(01:29):
and so my options were to staywhere I was, to lateral to
another law firm and hope that Iwould make partner, or lateral
to another law firm and go in asa partner, and I did.
I started down the path ofoption three, got the offer and
then completely freaked out andwas like I don't think I want to
(01:50):
do this.
I mean, should I do this?
What am I doing?
And had conversations with somefriends, with my then boyfriend,
now husband, and a friend ofmine said you've got all of
these creative outlets and ideas.
If you take the leap, the netwill appear.
(02:11):
And, for whatever reason, onthat particular day that
resonated with me and I decidedto trust my gut and jump.
And, as one of my besties said,you know what, if you jump and
there is no net or you cannotfigure it out, the law is not
going anywhere.
(02:31):
You can always go back topracticing law, and so I knew
that I kind of had that in myback pocket and so I left the
practice of law, I took sometime off and just sat still and
really just was regular for aminute, like I wasn't stressed
out about having my BlackBerryand being on calls and, you know
(02:57):
, having a vacation interruptedbecause something came up at
work and while I was sittingstill I decided I was going to
start a fashion styling businessfor busy professionals, because
that's what I had been doing,kind of as a side hustle, and so
I started that when I came outof my stillness, did that for
(03:20):
about a year, I would say.
Did that for about a year, Iwould say.
And as much as I loved fashionand style, what I quickly
learned is that I did not lovehelping people get dressed for a
living.
It was very stressful becausewe all have body conscious
issues.
No matter how small or big youare, tall or short or whatever
(03:44):
the case may be, we're all alittle bit insecure, and so part
of my job also became helpingpeople feel good about
themselves in their bodies, andthat wasn't quite what I had
signed up for.
So fast forwarding.
I'm in this business that I'mnot quite loving.
I'm in this business that I'mnot quite loving, also planning
(04:11):
my wedding working with agraphic designer in London whose
printers were in India.
And we were getting marriedaround or just before monsoon
season, and so she said to melook, I can get your invitations
printed in India.
We were doing like thesespecial, fancy kind of
Indian-like wedding invitations.
She said, but the collateralyou're going to have to find
(04:31):
somebody in New York to do.
And I found someone and throughthat experience of art
directing she and her graphicdesign team and then working
with this production guy, it waskind of like I love stationary,
I've always loved stationary.
Maybe this is a sign, maybe Ishould have a stationary company
(04:52):
.
And one thing led to another,and here we are.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
That's amazing I also want to name.
There's nothing regular abouttaking a break and then
launching a business.
It is all very amazing to meand inspirational.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
There isn't.
But one of the things I reallylove that you did, kaylin, was
you know, and I think we'rehearing this when we talk to
other women entrepreneurs is thefirst thing they start isn't
necessarily where they land, sothat and so giving yourself
permission to iterate, trythings, say you know what, I
don't really like that or that'snot really, I can't make money
(05:29):
enough money at this, or youknow to your point like this is
not the kind of work I want todo every day, is, I think,
really revealing, and I hopepeople, I hope our listeners,
hear that you know it's likegive yourself permission to try
things out and see if it works,see how it, see how the shoe
fits, uh, and then go from there, um, and so I I want to dig in
a little bit more.
So you launch effie's paper justtalk about the inspiration for
(05:53):
naming it after your grandmotherand kind of just the, because
you've gone in a reallyinteresting trajectory too with
the company, now starting withstationary and now into, like so
many other lifestyle kind of um, home accents, apparel, etc
we've, we've, um, we've done alot of pivots and um, you know,
(06:14):
you got to kind of just rollwith the punches.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
So I named the company when I, when I had my
aha moment, I was literallysitting at my desk writing thank
you notes and I had my personalstationery, I had wedding
stationery and then I had beengifted a lot of stationery for
an organization I had justbecome a member of and the only
(06:37):
stationery that I loved was mywedding stationery that I had
helped to, art direct.
And I just kind of looked up,had my aha moment and the name
Effie's Paper came to me.
And the reason incorporating mygrandmother was important to me
is because my grandmotherfostered my love of paper and
(06:59):
stationery, handwritten notes,everything kind of in the realm
of what it is that I'm doing now.
She worked for a greeting cardcompany when my sister and I
were little and we had a cabinetin my grandparents' family room
filled with greeting cards andstationery and wrapping paper.
(07:20):
And you know, when you'relittle you don't know, you
assume that everybody is livingand doing the things in the
exact same way that you and yourfamily are.
So I didn't know that that wasspecial, or I just didn't know
that other people didn't have astationary cabinet, you know,
and we practiced our penmanshipand I had pen pals that I wrote
(07:42):
to all over the world and I hadmy friends in Jack and Jill that
I wrote to.
So that was just sort of mynorm and when I thought I should
have a stationery company itjust seemed natural to name it
after my grandmother.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
I love that.
I want to just maybe pivot toanother question, which is your
customer who is the Effie'spaper customer?
Speaker 2 (08:09):
My target is someone who's pretty much like myself.
When I started the company,part of what pushed me was that
I wasn't finding paper productsthat spoke to me and I felt like
, if I was, if I felt that way,there had to be other people out
there feeling the same way.
I wanted something that had alittle bit more edge, perhaps a
(08:29):
little bit more color.
There was a lot of pastel, alittle bit more motivation, and
so my target is really someonewho is looking for something
that's outside of the norm, ifyou will.
You know she's anywhere between25 and probably 55.
(08:50):
She's a coffee drinker, she's aletter writer, she's a note
taker, she's really good atmaking a to-do list and ticking
off the box.
You know she's someone who'sgot some discretionary income
and is okay treating herself.
You know we all spend our moneyin the way that works best for
us.
My girl is okay spending $24for a notebook because that
(09:14):
makes her feel good, and whenshe pulls it out at her meeting
and it says Black Girl Magic onit and she's seated at a
conference table with all whitepeople and you know nine times
out of 10 white men she's gotthat motivation there.
She's got her girl gang.
(09:35):
You know kind of cheering herthrough and you know any slights
or perceived slights thathappen in the meeting or just if
she needs a boost of confidence.
That notebook, just looking atthat cover, is a reminder for
her to stand her ground, stateher worth and move forward in
(10:02):
this world that she's is a partof for the time being.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
I feel like you've been following me around in my
workday as you describe thisideal girl.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
Because I used to be you in your workday.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
And I may or may not wear my HVIC socks on certain
Zoom calls, just so you know.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Exactly that's what I'm talking about.
Speaker 3 (10:26):
So, Kaylin, I'm really curious For many of our
listeners who are aspiringentrepreneurs.
They are either about to launchsomething new or they are newly
minted in this space.
What is a piece of advice youwould have given yourself when
you were first starting out, ifyou could do it over again?
Speaker 2 (10:47):
There's so many.
I'm going to hone in on two, Ithink.
The first is you just don'tknow what you don't know and you
have to give yourself grace togrow into the role of being an
entrepreneur.
You know, when I first startedout, I was really uncomfortable
(11:09):
calling myself a CEO.
I don't know why.
I just didn't feel right.
I don't know it, just that washard for me.
So you don't know what youdon't know.
And coupled with that is if Ihad to, if I were able to start
(11:31):
all over again, I think one ofthe things I would do early on
is invest in a credible coach,mentor, accountability partner,
someone who has already donewhat it is that I was hoping to
do and who could kind of hold myhand and help me navigate and
(11:54):
help me avoid some of thepitfalls that I've fallen into.
You know, just because you'rebuilding the plane as it's
flying oftentimes.
You're building the plane asit's flying oftentimes and what
I now know is that that is oneway to do it, but you do not
have to do it that way.
Speaker 3 (12:11):
That's good.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
Kaylin, you talk about pitfalls and you know.
One of the things we know isthat the lifestyle, the industry
that you're in, is supercompetitive, not when you
started like.
You've been in business now forabout a decade a little bit
more than a decade and therewere even fewer black creatives
such as yourself.
Now.
You probably helped inspiremany, many more coming up.
(12:35):
But I'm just curious, as youthink about some of those
challenges, especially relevantto just even your startup mode,
are there challenges that wereunique to you as a Black
entrepreneur in this lifestyleindustry or just, you know, even
not necessarily as a Blackentrepreneur, but just in
general breaking into thisparticular industry?
Speaker 2 (12:57):
You know yes.
Short answer yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
What are those that stand out?
I guess maybe the ones thatstand out for you stand out for
you most.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
Well, I would say stationery, the paper industry
has historically been dominatedby white women and up until very
recently there have not beenfolks who look like us making
you know in the decision-makingposition or in the maker
(13:27):
position.
And so a great way toillustrate what I was up against
when I first started is I did atrade show, one of the popular
trade shows.
It was called the NationalStationery Show.
It doesn't exist anymore.
It's folded into something else.
And I remember havingconversations with other
(13:50):
business friends who were alsocontemplating doing trade shows
in different lanes, you know,about whether or not we should
hire white salespeople.
So that was kind of the firstsplash Actually doing the
National Stationery Show.
And I had one of the youngladies who was working with me
(14:13):
at the time in the booth with me.
She happened to be white and,you know, maybe was all of 20 or
21.
I think she was still incollege at the time.
A white woman came up to thebooth, beeline to her and
started asking her questionsabout the brand and she looked
(14:36):
at the lady like the lady wascrazy and she said you should
probably talk to my boss that'sher right there.
And the lady was so embarrassedthat she just scurried off, and
that's not the only time thathappened at that trade show or
(14:56):
other trade shows.
So I think it's different todaybecause there are many more
women of color in the space.
I think there are even a few ofus who are in some
decision-making positions, andthe world is very different
(15:17):
post-2020, summer of 2020, thanit was prior to 2020.
So, yeah, it's been a veryinteresting ride 2020 than it
was prior to 2020.
Speaker 3 (15:28):
Excuse me, so, yeah, it's been a very interesting
ride.
Caitlin, I know I'm justmeeting you today, but it sounds
like you carry both sides ofyour brain all the time Hyper
creative, hyper methodical andstrategic right, and it's the
perfect pairing for being akick-ass entrepreneur.
Methodical and strategic right,and it's the perfect pairing
for being a kick-assentrepreneur.
(15:48):
I'm curious to know if thosemodes are ever in conflict.
When you're working andbuilding or designing or
dreaming Like, what does thattension feel like and how do you
manage it?
Speaker 2 (15:57):
Some days I do better than others.
It's hard.
I mean, as the business hasgrown, I've had to dedicate more
time and energy to the runningof the business versus doing the
creative stuff, which is, quitefrankly, what I really love,
and it feels like it's aconstant conflict.
(16:20):
What I try to do is set asideat least one day a week for
creativity, whether that'sideation, whether that's even
just like creating graphics forour newsletter, just the things
that I really enjoy doing.
I also do a lot of work withother small businesses large
(16:43):
businesses as well where I'mcreating product or concepts for
them, as they are trying tofigure out what kinds of
products they're going to offerand sell, and it really, at this
point, requires me to bestrategic with my calendar, and
(17:05):
so what I've learned to do isset aside days, like I try to
have a day for calls, I try tohave a day for creativity, I try
to have a day where I'm reallyavailable to my staff because I
know that they can.
My mantra usually is do what itis you can so that they help
(17:28):
them, help you.
You know, if somebody is saying, hey, can you review this or,
you know, can we talk this weekabout X, y, z.
If I don't review, if I don'tmake time, then they can't do
whatever it is they need to bedoing to help move the bus
forward.
So the days don't always go asI had planned and I don't always
(17:52):
get the things done that needto get done.
And I would say, quite frankly,probably the thing that takes
the backseat is the creativity,and I would say quite frankly,
probably the thing that takesthe backseat is the creativity.
(18:13):
That's probably one of the worstthings I think about
entrepreneurship is some of thethings that inspired you to jump
in, are the things that youhave to really fight for as you
keep going and growing.
Yes, and that's one of thosethings nobody tells you.
And and I don't you know thething is when you, when you
start off and you're so freshand you're so excited, people
tell you lots of things.
So I it's not fair to saythat's one of those things
nobody tells you.
Somebody may have mentionedthat to me, or more than one
(18:37):
person may have mentioned it tome.
I don't think I could hear itor receive it in the way that
they were hoping.
Yeah, it's just par for thecourse.
It's part of the territory.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Effie's Paper started out as a product-based company.
You started with paper goods.
You've evolved way beyond thatand this question is about risk
and scale and like how do youknow what to bet on in terms of
thinking about just expandingyour product line, the kind of
products like I wonder.
If you just talk, you knowthere's a lot of.
(19:15):
We have a lot of listeners who,I think, really look at people
like you and think I, I want tolike it looks so easy, you make
it look so easy, you're comingout with new products all the
time, but how are you decidingwhat to bring to your customers
and just talk about the risk andmaybe talk about a big risk you
(19:36):
took that didn't pan out andhow you handled it?
Speaker 2 (19:39):
Okay risk you took that didn't pan out and how you
handled it, okay, you know, Ithink one of the things what
happened to me that kind ofpushed me into the product space
a little bit sooner than I wasready for, quite frankly is my
website got hacked and I had totake a step back and, you know,
(20:00):
hire somebody to fix it.
And I was getting ready to go onvacation and was like you know
what?
I'm just going to stopeverything for a couple of
months and come back fresh.
And I named the companyintentionally because I had
always planned to have whatnots.
So, as I was taking this stepback, I really started to think
about what are the things that Iuse and enjoy on a daily basis
(20:25):
Coffee I'm a coffee drinker, socoffee mugs I'm the person who
gets to Target and that dollaraisle is exciting to me Me too
and it's like, oh, this is acute keychain and look at that
notepad and look at this.
And it's like, oh, this is acute key chain and look at that
notepad and look at this thataisle is my downfall.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
That aisle in Target when you walk in is my complete
and utter downfall.
Every time, Every time.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
So you feel me.
And so I just started to thinkabout the things that bring me
joy and I find exciting thatdon't break the bank as well,
but give you that little lift meup of, oh, I'm going to treat
myself, I'm going to do this.
So that's really how we started.
(21:09):
Adding new products in.
Notebooks were, I think, thefirst deviation from just
straight stationary, which madesense, and then notepads, and
then we did post-it notesstationery, which made sense,
and then notepads, and then wedid post-it notes and then, like
I said, I really like coffeeand so we added in ceramic mugs.
(21:30):
I'm a New Yorker, I'm runningaround a lot and I thought, well
, why should I be running aroundwith this cardboard cup when I
could have a reusable mug thatlooks like one, I would want to
carry cup.
When I could have a reusablemug that looks like one, I would
want to carry.
And if I want to carry it,presumably my customers are
going to want to have somethingvery similar.
And so it's definitely trialand error and you know, even
(21:54):
within categories.
So you know.
A question about what'ssomething that didn't go as well
as you had hoped With respectto our travel mugs, our Black
Girl Magic and our FuturistFemale mug like fly off the
shelves.
People love those.
I had this mug in my head.
(22:15):
I wanted the body to be pinkwith metallic gold stars on it.
I don't know why.
That's just what I had in myhead and you know, when I saw,
when I saw the prototype, it wasexactly what I wanted.
I was super excited we broughtit in and it just hasn't done as
well.
I don't know why.
(22:37):
You know it is what it is andthey're lessons you learn.
I mean, I wish I'm sure thereis a formula.
I don't have the formula.
I go a lot on my gut and whatmakes me feel good, like it?
Our tagline when we were juststationary was a stationary that
(22:58):
makes your heart leap andthat's still something I really
follow, Like when I seeprototypes from my manufacturers
.
If I get that like this is it,then I'm pretty certain it's
going to work.
Or when I'm designing on thecomputer screen and I, you know
I see the finished product, Iknow immediately this is it or
(23:20):
yeah, no, I got to start over,so it's definitely.
I've definitely gone with mygut.
You know, if I were to take astep back and think about it.
I don't know that I would havediversified as much as we have.
Some of it, you know, wasbecause it was COVID and the
(23:41):
world was shut down, so itbecame really easy to
manufacture t-shirts andsweatshirts and not so easy to
get notebooks and notepadsmanufactured.
So, you know, will I take outthe apparel?
(24:04):
Probably not just becausethat's a very easy lift for us,
but are there some productcategories that we're probably,
once we sell through, we're notgoing to bring back?
Yes, because oftentimes inthese scenarios what happens is
(24:25):
people get decision paralysis.
There's so much to choose fromthat they can't choose, and so I
know that happens at in-personevents, and we've gotten really
good about curating what we'rebringing, thinking about who the
audience of the event is goingto be, what we're going to bring
, what we're going to upsell.
That's a lot easier to do inperson than it is online, and so
(24:47):
part of what's going to happenonline is we're just going to
call.
Speaker 3 (24:52):
Who are these people that have difficulty making
decisions in their online cart?
That doesn't happen to me.
I'm just like I want that andthat and I'm going to put it in
my cart.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
I'm just putting it all in my cart.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
I'm going to put it all in my cart and just buy it.
You ladies are my favorite kindof customers.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
Yeah, we're just like it's pretty, I need this.
I need this.
I'll text her, I'll be like Ineed this.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
She'll be like I need this.
She'll be like no, you don't.
I'll be like, but I'm gettingit.
Well, kaelin, when you thinkabout the future of Effie's
paper and continuing to push theneedle and expand, are there
ways that you hope to inspirefuture women in this space or in
the entrepreneurial space morebroadly?
Speaker 2 (25:41):
Yes, actually.
I mean, one of the things thatreally has kind of hit home in
the past probably four to sixmonths is that I have garnered a
lot of information about beingan entrepreneur, about starting
a product-based business, andI've been fortunate in that I've
(26:04):
, over the course of time, met alot of female business owners
who are trying to navigate andfigure out how to make this
whole entrepreneurial world workfor them, and I think it's
different for all of us, right?
So one of the things that I amdoing now is I am doing
(26:28):
one-on-one coaching with some ofthe women that I've met along
the way, because there's just noreason to recreate the wheel,
and I've got this knowledge andinformation and it's exciting to
share it with someone and seethe light bulb go off and see
them.
(26:48):
I was having a conversationwith one of my clients yesterday
who switched.
She has a subscription company.
She switched platforms and lostabout half of her customers,
and so we were chatting about,you know, getting this customer
(27:11):
base back up, and so I said toher well, for the people who
didn't renew when you got tothis new platform, have you
reached out to them?
She said, well, I sent an emailand I said that's it.
And she said, well, got tofigure out how to do that.
And I said, at a minimum you'vegot at least call three of them
(27:49):
to find out.
You know, do they miss yoursubscription box?
And had you made it seamlessfor them to be into your new
platform, would they have stayedwith you and perhaps give them
a special discount for like thefirst three months or something
(28:09):
that they get back in with you?
And I just saw, you know, thelight bulbs go off, like, oh my
God, I could do that.
I didn't even think about itand I think we get so in our
heads that we can't see theforest for the trees, and so it
was great to see the light bulbsgo off for her in a way that
(28:32):
she saw a way forward versusfeeling continuing to feel stuck
.
I was like you have, you havecustomers, you just got to go
back after them.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
What I love too, kaylin, is like, especially over
this, you know, decade plus ofbeing a, you know, a business
owner, a CEO is now it probablyfeels very natural to you.
And but when you're newer inthat continuum, being an
entrepreneur, I know I am, andthere are things where I'm like,
oh my gosh, this is so hard.
And then I go and talk to amentor, they're like, no, just
(29:03):
do this, this and this.
And you're like, oh, yeah, Ican do that, I can do that, can
I?
Right, like you know I shoulddo that Right.
Well, yeah, you should if youwant to get paid.
But I think what I love is thatwhat I hear is that you started
the business really just kind oforganically with this
(29:24):
paper-based, with paper products, expanded.
Now you're moving into services.
Now you're it's what I'mhearing you say you're moving
into this consulting servicesfor people who are running, um,
you know, online-based productcompanies, and so I I'm curious
if you, as you look full circleback to where you, when you are
you surprised, like you startedas a corporate attorney, and I
(29:46):
want our listeners to hear thislike, because we often think
that where we start is where wewe're stuck.
We're stuck in a path, um andthat.
But you've proven, and what youdid in terms of especially
iterating your journey, thatwhere you start absolutely
doesn't have to be where you end.
And so I'm just curious likeare you look back, are you
(30:07):
surprised, are you just likewhat's the feeling there?
Speaker 2 (30:11):
Oh, I'm in shock.
You know again, you just don'tknow.
I mean, I didn't come from afamily of entrepreneurs.
You know, I grew up in the veryyou become a doctor, lawyer,
engineer, teacher, like this iswhat we do.
So it didn't occur to me that Iwasn't going to be a lawyer for
(30:34):
my whole life or I wasn't goingto be in the law policy world
in some way, shape or form.
I could have never envisionedany of this because it just it
didn't exist in my realm.
I think it's a little bitdifferent today, because we do
have the internet and you cansee that there are people doing
(30:59):
all kinds of things you know,many of whom are keeping their
their their main job, if youwill and are entrepreneurial on
the side, and sometimes thatentrepreneurial pursuit ends up
becoming the full thing.
Sometimes people are able tostraddle the fence, but when I
was coming up you you couldn'tsee beyond the people who were
(31:23):
in front of you or the peoplewho were around you.
So you know, had I had thebenefit of what today's young
people have the benefit of, Ithink I would be some kind of
logistics person.
Like, I went to see Beyoncelast summer and I was fascinated
(31:44):
by the set.
Speaker 1 (31:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
And the fact that they have three of those sets
and they travel and there issomebody whose job is to break
down, set up.
You know that all of that Iwanted to dive into.
I wanted to know, I wanted tolearn everything I could.
All of that I wanted to diveinto.
I wanted to know, I wanted tolearn everything I could about
(32:08):
the logistics behind the show.
You know how she came up withthe idea, how it was brought to
life and then how it's movedfrom place to place.
And, quite frankly, the firsttime I saw Cirque du Soleil I
saw the water show.
Or, oh, in Vegas, at halftime.
At halftime it's collegefootball season, but at
(32:31):
intermission.
At intermission, I had to leavethe theater, go to the
bookstore next door and buy abook, because I needed to
understand how they had thiswater tank under this theater
and how these people were diving.
You know, like 30 feet up.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
How are they doing this?
Speaker 2 (32:51):
Had I seen these sorts of things growing up,
that's probably what I wouldhave done.
Speaker 3 (32:57):
That's incredible.
Speaker 1 (32:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:00):
Okay, kaylin, this is the segment of the show that I
might be a little biased, but itis my favorite.
We love to ask guests a fewlightning round questions.
The only rule is that we don'twant you to overthink it.
We just want you to share thefirst thing that comes to mind.
Okay, and we'll just ask a few.
So we have recently rebrandedthe pie to ungovernable women.
(33:25):
What does being ungovernablemean to you?
Speaker 2 (33:30):
Well, do you want my real answer or my PC?
No, let's go with it.
No, this is lightning round.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
We want the real answer, we want the real answer.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
We're in a very hot political climate right now, but
what I immediately thought ofis get your hands off my body.
So that's in this moment, today, that's what ungovernable feels
like to me.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
So, kaylin, you are like one of my shopping guru
heroines, I think.
I always think like if kaylin'swearing it, it means people
will be wearing it like in thenext year and a half or so,
because you're kind of far out,you're.
You tend to be ahead of thetrend.
But I'm curious, um, and I whatI also love about your sense of
(34:22):
style is you have really goodhigh-low sense of style as well.
You buy high, but you also buylike kind of you know like
you'll buy the Zara as well,best purchase that you've made
recently under $150?
.
Well, these glasses, oh, thoseare very cute.
They're very cute.
Thank you, yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:41):
Thank you, but clothing-wise.
Or gadget it could be a gadgettoo.
Okay, the best gadget I havepurchased under.
I think it might've cost $20.
I'm going to see if I can showthis to you.
I'm totally messing things up.
Is this phone stand?
(35:01):
Oh yeah, hands down.
The best purchase I made duringCOVID.
Oh, I do not leave home withoutit.
It's always in my tote or mybackpack or my suitcase, because
that way I can work on mycomputer and I have my phone
right there as well.
That is definitely one of mybest, best purchases.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
I love that.
Speaker 3 (35:27):
What is a secret?
Unpopular opinion that you hold?
Speaker 2 (35:32):
I love this question are young people and I'm dating
myself a bit but that anyoneunder 30, particularly
(35:59):
African-American men and women,who are unsure about who to vote
for or whether or not theirvote counts, needs to get their
shit together.
Excuse my language, I'm justtired.
I am tired of well, you know, Ijust really don't know how I
feel, and or well, I just.
I mean, it's not really clearto me that my vote counts.
Then you know what?
Go back to your civics classand read the assignment you did
(36:23):
not read.
We live in a democracy.
Hopefully we will be in thatdemocracy.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
Hopefully.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
Come December 2024.
But if you're dumb behind,don't do your job.
We might not.
Actual and factual.
Yes, actual and factual.
Speaker 3 (36:42):
You know what I love it's like Tiffany.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
I love how people go on a tear with this question.
When we ask, like we're allpeople, it's like I don't know
if I should say this and thenthey just start like, wow,
people, really I love thisquestion.
Can people totally unload?
And you know, I think this andthis is the time.
Is there, um, is there a gift?
(37:04):
Kay Kaylin, you are a fabulousgift giver, I happen to know
this, but is there a gift thatyou find yourself a book,
especially that you findyourself gifting constantly or
recommending constantly?
Speaker 2 (37:20):
There is.
There is, I think every newbusiness owner or person, any
people contemplating starting abusiness, should read a book
called the E-Myth by Eric Gerber.
(37:42):
It is a relatively short bookbut it breaks down into
bite-sized chunks.
Excuse me, whatentrepreneurship is, and
particularly for those startingout.
He's very clear.
Like you're going to have to doall of the things.
I don't care what you read, Idon't care what you see.
When you start a business, youare going to do all of the
(38:04):
things, and that's notnecessarily a bad thing, because
in doing all of the things, youwill learn how you want things
done in your company.
Yeah, so that when you are in aposition to hire someone to do
those things, you can tell themhow to do it.
You know about how much time itshould take.
You can tell them how to do it.
You know about how much time itshould take.
(38:28):
And if you write all of thisdown as you are building things
out, you then have a manual thatyou can hand to them.
It can become a living documentthat they can embellish, but
it's also something they canopen, go to, so that they're not
always coming to you askingquestions Because the reason you
brought somebody in is to freeyour time up.
(38:49):
Your time is not freed up ifyou are constantly having to
hold somebody's hand.
So somebody recommended it tome when I started out and it
helped me really begin to thinkabout what it was going to mean
to start a business and how Iwanted my business to look and,
ultimately, what I wanted myrole in my business to be.
Speaker 1 (39:13):
I love that.
Speaker 3 (39:15):
So good.
I love to talk to entrepreneursabout the myth of just hire
someone to do all those things.
No, you need to be cashflowpositive, so you're going to
work really hard.
Speaker 2 (39:27):
Number one number one number one.
Speaker 1 (39:29):
We want to be cashflow positive.
Speaker 3 (39:33):
Yes, Kaylin thank you so much for joining us on the
pod today.
It has been delightful gettingto know you, learning more about
your story and also learning alittle bit more about your
unpopular opinions.
Speaker 1 (39:46):
And Kaylin before we go.
I have this.
I was looking on my bookshelfand I got this little.
I got this little blast fromthe past.
If for those who are onlylistening and not watching,
kaylin is co-author of the BAPhandbook, the Official Guide to
the Black American Princess.
This became a total cult book,and so I just and you know, you
(40:11):
published it in 2000, maybe2001,.
Somewhere around 2001.
And so I am curious are wegoing to, before you leave us
like, just don't leave ushanging is there going to be
some kind of revision to the BAPhandbook or any, or is it going
to be optioned for a movie atany point?
Just curious, if, if we can see, or if we might see another, a
(40:35):
different book from you.
Speaker 2 (40:37):
Well, with respect to the BAP handbook, we we've had
some conversations, we'll see.
You know, nothing is over untilit's over, so let's put that
out, let's put that out to theuniverse and see what happens.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
Let's see, okay, good deal.
Speaker 2 (40:55):
And I don't know.
You might see the grown-upversion of the BAP handbook and
hopefully you will also see somekind of book from me as well.
I don't know what exactly it'llbe, but I'm putting that out
there and hoping that by 2026,it'll be moving forward.
Speaker 1 (41:19):
So you feel like what I'm hearing you say is you feel
like you've got a book insideof you still taking shape, and
so we're gonna, we're gonna,we're gonna keep, we're gonna
keep tabs on you Because I thinkit'll be well and bring you
back for when you want your book, and that'll be a lot of fun.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
I'm gonna hold you to that.
Speaker 1 (41:36):
Caitlin Johnson Chandler, thank you so much for
being with us today.
It has just been a delight.
Speaker 2 (41:41):
Thank you, ladies, I truly appreciate it.
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