Startups, Scaleups, and Transformative Leadership with Jabu Dayton

We talk with Jabu Dayton, Chief People Officer and HR consultant, about her career experience in tech startups. Her candid insights reveal how embracing confidence and assertiveness can help women, especially, overcome imposter syndrome and make meaningful strides in the tech industry. Jabu shares personal anecdotes about the startup world, shedding light on the importance of advocating for fair compensation and legal compliance - essential tools for overcoming missed opportunities and achieving equity in the workplace.

Have a question or comment? Email us at [e-mail].

Book mentioned in this episode: The 4-Hour Workweek: Escape 9-5, Live Anywhere, and Join the New Rich by Timothy Ferriss.

Portia Mount on LinkedIn
Tiffany Waddell Tate on LinkedIn
Jabu Dayton on LinkedIn
Jabu Dayton’s Website

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Portia Mount, creator and host of
Ungovernable Women, formerly theManifesta Podcast, the
lifestyle and career podcast foraspiring women.
Our new name reflects ourmission to reach even more
listeners with stories of womenwho are breaking boundaries and
redefining success.
I have a favor to ask you, ifyou haven't done so already,
please rate and subscribe to thepod.

(00:21):
Wherever you listen to yourpodcasts, it boosts our rankings
and helps more people discoverus.
Thanks for tuning in.
Welcome to Season 5 ofUngovernable Women, the career
and lifestyle podcast foraspiring women ready to break
barriers.
I'm Portia Mouw and I'mthrilled to be back with my
co-host, tiffany Waddell-Tate,ceo of Career Maven Consulting.

(00:43):
We've got a new name, but ourmission remains stronger than
ever helping women find theirpurpose, lead high-impact
careers and meaningful lives.
This season, we'll bring youthe stories of women who forged
their own paths to success.
It's our time to shine.
Let's dive in.
Welcome to the UngovernableWomen pod.

(01:06):
Today, we are diving into theworld of tech startups and
scaling companies with a trueindustry insider.
I am thrilled to introduce JabuDayton, a chief people officer
and advisor who's beeninstrumental in shaping some of
the most recognizable names intech.
From the early stages, jabu hasbeen at the forefront of
building and scaling companycultures that drive success.

(01:28):
Her journey as a Black woman intech exemplifies what it means
to be ungovernable, persistentlyinnovating, advocating for
change and paving the way forothers in an industry that's
historically lacked diversity.
Jabu's insights on startupculture and scaling companies
are invaluable for anyonelooking to make their mark in
tech or build a company thatstands the test of time.

(01:49):
Let's explore the world ofstartups, scale-ups and
transformative leadership withJabu Dayton.

Speaker 2 (01:55):
Jabu welcome to the pod.
Thank you so much, Portia andTiffany.
I'm so happy to be here withyou.

Speaker 1 (02:01):
We are delighted to have you here with us.

Speaker 3 (02:04):
Yeah, I'm so pumped to have this conversation,
especially because you have beenon the leadership team of quite
a few big name startups that weall know and love from their
early stages.
So I'm really curious aboutwhat drew you into the startup
world and how has yourperspective on startups evolved
over time.

Speaker 2 (02:25):
Great question, tiffany.
So I was not drawn into thestartup world.
It was 2010.
And I was leaving my companythat I had started a little
company in South Africa.
The company had not doneterribly well and I was making
my way back to the United Statesand I knew only a couple of

(02:50):
things.
I did not want to go back toretail I had been working in
corporate retail and I did notwant to go back to Seattle
Washington and that's about allI knew.
I didn't know where else in theStates I was going to live.
I didn't have a clear idea ofwhat kind of job.
I thought I was done with HRcompletely.
I was so done with HR.
I did not want to do humanresources work again ever.
And lo and behold, a friend sentme a link to a company for

(03:11):
housing purposes only and it wasa place where you could rent
short-term rentals and it wasdog-friendly and I had a dog.
So that was important and Iwent back.
I just decided I was going tocheck that out.
But as I was checking it out, Istarted looking and reading
about their culture and I wasblown away.
They could bring their dogs towork, they had equitable
benefits and some work-from-homebenefits, things that at that

(03:34):
time were really progressive andvery different from the
corporate experience I'd hadprior.
And it captured something in meand there was only one job that
I sort of could see myself in.
It was called a customerservice strategist and I had
been doing customer service forthe previous, you know, 15 years

(03:54):
.
I figured I didn't know exactlywhat tech was and I didn't know
if I would fit in.
I was pretty sure I'd be theoldest person there and I was
not wrong.
Their interview process was sobad it took three months to hire
me and you think, oh my God and20.

Speaker 1 (04:15):
So they needed you, they needed you.

Speaker 2 (04:17):
They desperately needed you.
And 20 interviews.
And what they didn't realizewas, while they were busy
interviewing me, I wasinterviewing them.
By the end of that 20interviews, I knew exactly what
they wanted to hear.
I knew exactly what they werelooking for.
I knew the whole company,because the company was only 30
people at that time.
So it was a crazy experienceand now, when I look back at it,
I was 41 years old.

(04:38):
This job that I was applyingfor didn't even have a title.
So there was that voice in methat was like oh, I should be
director level, I should be VPlevel.
This is bananas.
But I loved the company, Iloved what it stood for at the
time and I thought that this wasa real break for me and I
really knew that I was smartenough to figure the rest out,

(04:59):
or hoped that I would to behonest, I was quite scared.

Speaker 1 (05:13):
There was a lot of imposter syndrome, so I'll stop
there.
But yeah, I love that you talkabout imposter syndrome, being a
little bit scared and notknowing all parts of the job.
I have heard you say numeroustimes in our other conversations
that women need to channeltheir inner white guy.
And let's be candid, there area ton of white guys in tech.
Right, it's getting morediverse, but the preponderance
of tech are still primarilywhite males.
Maybe South Asian males mightfall second behind.

(05:34):
But what do you mean by that?
Because that's always kind ofstuck with me.

Speaker 2 (05:41):
Yes, contrary to popular belief, white men can be
excellent profiles for us toobserve behavior, confidence,
ability to just walk in a roomand own the energy, ability to
talk and give opinions aboutthings that they don't actually
have experience in.
And I'm not even trying to befunny.

(06:02):
What are you?

Speaker 1 (06:03):
saying Jabou, wow, I'm leaning in, I am leaning
into this, please do share more.

Speaker 2 (06:11):
They have things to teach us as Black women and any
type of women actually.

Speaker 1 (06:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (06:17):
And you know, I want to say also it was white men
that gave me the breaks that Ihave.
Most of my clients are whitemen, so we have no problem with
white men.
But what I needed to learn was,instead of feeling left out of
the conversation, how tointegrate myself into the
conversation, whether I feltinvited or not, whether I was
scared or not, whether you know,I think a lot of times, you

(06:41):
know, and again, I was a grownperson, I was 41.
I was waiting always forsomebody to invite me, welcome
me and, like Jabu, we justreally want to hear what you
have to say.
And that's not how myexperiences were for most of my
life or most of my career.
And you have to not care, and Iwould use stronger words if
this were not your podcast, but-you can.

Speaker 1 (07:01):
You can use any words you want.
No, absolutely.

Speaker 2 (07:11):
You have to not give a fuck what anybody else thinks.
And that does not mean youdon't move with grace or love or
you know high vibe, but youhave to move into that room and
own it and when it comes yourtime to talk, you need to talk.
And you know those.
Those muscles only getdeveloped by, by using them.
But while you're trying totrying to use them and get
warmed up, watch how the brosmove and copy everything they do
.

Speaker 1 (07:30):
Well, everything Do we copy everything they do, the
things that work for you 70%,70%, maybe even 80%.

Speaker 2 (07:38):
Listen who's getting paid the most White men and
white women.

Speaker 1 (07:44):
This is accurate.
This is accurate, jabba, I haveto say I just want to kind of
co-sign on what you've said.
Most of my biggest careeropportunities have come from
white men, just truth be told,and the biggest salaries that I
have negotiated.
I had help from white men whereI literally would take my offer

(08:04):
letter and say because we knowthat black women make what?
68, 69 cents on the dollar,asian women make a little bit
more and white women make like85 or 86.
I'm not getting these numbersperfectly right, but that was in
my mind.
And I went to a white malementor and I was like hey, this
is my offer.
It was for at a public company,what do you think about this?

(08:25):
And I got I promise you I don'tthink I would have gotten
better advice from somebody elseLike it's just so, yeah, so I
love the frame that you're set.
I love the frame that you'veset there, which is really like
there's the way white men movein spaces and it's like there's

(08:45):
no self-consciousness, or ifthere is, you don't know it
right, you don't, you don't seeit.
And there's a and there's anassumption of.
I believe what I'm also hearingyou say is walk into the room
Like you belong there, asopposed to waiting to be asked
in and invite it to the table,step to the table and, because
you wouldn't be there, frankly,if you didn't belong there.

Speaker 2 (09:06):
So I love, I love the frame.
That's right.
It's not charity.
There's no charity, they don'thave time for it.
The 44 person company they didnot hire me because they thought
I was an addition of cost.
They didn't give a fuck.
Right, I was the only one at mylevel and so, and what was
beautiful was, you know, thefounders were all under 30 at
the times particular company I'mtalking about and they'd never
actually had professional jobs,so they'd never worked with HR.

(09:27):
Oh my God, wow, that's amazing.

Speaker 1 (09:32):
So they were taking- Sounds frightening actually to
me.

Speaker 3 (09:37):
Sounds like an HR nightmare actually.

Speaker 2 (09:39):
Oh it was, and it was a beautiful place for me to
learn because I was coming froma very traditional HR space.
So, I was seeing fires pop up.
Now, mind you, my title was notglobal HR, yet it was customer
service strategist.
But I was like well, this isillegal, like we are not, you
can't do that.

Speaker 1 (09:58):
You can't do that in the state of California.

Speaker 2 (10:01):
Stop right now.
These are not salaried.
Our customer service team isnot salaried.
They need to be hourly.
And where is their OT?
And, in fact, where has theirOT been for the last three years
?
I made the-.

Speaker 1 (10:12):
Overtime.
You're talking about theirovertime Three years of retro
pay for overtime.

Speaker 2 (10:18):
Oh my Very bad, very bad.
It actually wasn't that muchmoney, but the idea of doing
that was something that was sonew to them and they let me do
it.
So God bless them.

Speaker 1 (10:28):
But I'm just saying Well, otherwise they would have
had the break suit off of themat some point later too.

Speaker 2 (10:33):
I mean they still may have, but it's just you don't
always get listened to by thesefolks and so you win where you
can and you're trying to protectyour people and take care of
the lowest paid individuals onthe total poll and then work
with the rest.
But I do want to point out thatthe genius in what you said,
portia, was that you took youroffer and you took it to someone

(10:53):
else to help you review it andto help strategize?

Speaker 1 (10:56):
Yeah, because I wanted more money.
Just to be clear more money.

Speaker 2 (10:59):
And I was scared to do that.
Oh, I was scared too, I wasscared to do that.

Speaker 1 (11:02):
So, like I'll give, you, I was scared too.

Speaker 2 (11:05):
In 2011, these people were paying me $75.
I mean 75, excuse me, 75 K.
Yeah, Basically $75.
Cause this is in California.

Speaker 1 (11:15):
Let's just, let's just say in California, in
California.

Speaker 2 (11:20):
And God bless people who are like that's still a lot
of money, cause it is but.
And God bless people who arelike that's still a lot of money
because it is, but.
Bottom line, I couldn'tactually afford to live in a
city of San Francisco, so Iwould go apply for apartments
and they would say you need tomake three times as much.
Oh my God.
And so I luckily was pushed toOakland, which was a much better
fit for me anyway, but Iliterally wasn't able to afford

(11:44):
to live there and work the waythat I was working for this
company, and by that I mean Iwas in there at 5 am in the
morning and I would leave, youknow, whenever I left at night.
And the only reason I could dothat was because my dog came to
work with me and I was so comingfrom my own business to startup
world.
All I knew was how to work andhave no other life.

(12:06):
So that part was a match for youlike, just like the ethic, the
work ethic of having to just,yeah, cortisol girl, I was
hooked and addicted.
So but what I'm saying is, if Ihad done that, if I had asked
for advice, if I had gone toother people I was too
embarrassed to, I would havedone much better.
And most of the women, who weremostly white in that situation,
did that with each other.

(12:27):
They were smart enough to go toeach other and say, hey, let's
offer and I didn't learn thatuntil much later, which is kind
of a shame way that I knew thatwasn't good money, aside from
not being able to get apartments, was the recruiter who offered
that to me.
One day we're sitting there.

(12:48):
We've been working 12 hourstogether, side by side.
He just starts laughing and Iyou know that feeling when
someone's laughing at you, notwith you, and I was like why are
you laughing?
And he was like I still can'tbelieve you took that offer.

Speaker 3 (13:01):
You got you got, you, got, you, got you got.

Speaker 2 (13:06):
oh my God, I didn't know I was coming.

Speaker 1 (13:10):
Like I'm feeling ragey just listening to you tell
me this.

Speaker 2 (13:14):
It was so mortifying.
Can you imagine?
My whole face went red Like Iwas just horrified and I I was
like, and he was a person ofcolor, so this is a person of
color saying this to me.

Speaker 3 (13:24):
Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute.
Did he offer you the job?

Speaker 2 (13:28):
He offered me the job , and he offered me that, and he
didn't say but I'll tell youwhat this did for me.

Speaker 3 (13:34):
I'm managing myself right now.

Speaker 2 (13:38):
These are all blessings.
Everything is what.
Do you know?
What came from that?
I actually get hired now toadvocate and help candidates
negotiate their salary.
My clients hire me, mycompanies hire me to help folks
from underrepresented sometimesof color, sometimes not and they
say we want you to help themnegotiate because we know they

(14:00):
don't know how.
And I will tell them this iswhat I do and I don't ask
permission.
I will help anybody, and thereare countless people that I have
done this with, with permissionor not, that can tell you I
changed their damn life becauseI told them.
No, no, honey, you're askingfor 80.
It should be 145.
That is a significantdifference.

Speaker 1 (14:20):
Life-changing.

Speaker 2 (14:21):
Life-changing.
It's a life-changing differenceand what is not done to us, we
need to do for others.
Absolutely Say it again, that'sthe mandate what is not done for
us, we need to do for others.
That's it.
And that man taught mesomething very important and I
still have feelings about it.
Right, but I had an opportunity.

(14:41):
I didn't manage it well, andthe next time I did better, and
the next time I did better, andnow I'm just fine.
So it's all well and good.
But anytime you're in a roomwith someone and you can see
that they're falling and theydon't know what they're doing
and they're making the wrongchoice, just take them to the
side and say hey, can I give youjust a little bit of help here?

(15:02):
They have to trust you.
So people are going to have totrust you, and sometimes they
don't, but like I've helped somany people that way, so we can
actually thank him for what hedid to me, because that's how I
don't know if I want.
I don't know that.

Speaker 1 (15:14):
I want to thank him.
You know, libra, we're petty,we're kind of vengeful, we're
pettier.

Speaker 3 (15:26):
Sorry Tiffany, sorry Tiffany.
I mean I really appreciate thatyou took a really shitty
situation and made it positivefor yourself and for your
current clients and I also wantto name for our listeners what I
heard, which was all thepositive, amazing outcomes.
It's impacted the way that youwork and the type of work that
you do, but everyone who lookslike you isn't for you either.

(15:48):
And that's really important whenyou're going into space, small
startup environment where I'massuming that one or two, maybe
three of 30 were people of colorand we might assume that
someone might share our genderidentity.
They might share our skin hueor whatever, but you can't make
those assumptions.
So I also want to make sure ourlisteners can use that.

Speaker 2 (16:07):
Absolutely Brilliant point, tiffany, and I learned
that very well in the corporatesetting the hard way, and you
know again like I don't look atany of these situations as
negative, really, because I canuse all of the data I learned
and help coach people and workin human resources and choose my
clients because I only chooseclients now that are going to

(16:28):
let me do the work that I thinkis important and support people
in a way that I think isimportant.
So it, and I don't want to makeit seem like I learned that
lesson in that moment I did.
I was horrified.
I felt so much shame.
I was like mortified and and soI do do want like sometimes we
gloss over these things and weget to the success story before

(16:48):
we really focus on like therewas a good eight years there
that your girl had to reallywork on.
Like okay, what was the upsideof that experience?

Speaker 3 (16:57):
I love that, jabu.
I'm also curious because inthese stories that you're
sharing with us, I'm alsohearing that there are some
elements of the startup culture,especially in the early stages,
that new or emerging startupscould learn from.
So you named that there were alot of HR pitfalls, maybe some
legal eagle issues, and therewere some opportunities from an

(17:21):
equity standpoint in terms ofhow they were building employee
benefits or sourcing for newemployees.
But what are some of thecultural differentiators that
make a startup rise to ascensioncompared to those who fizzle
out after a few years?

Speaker 2 (17:40):
Yeah, great question.
Also, it's a combination ofthings, right?
Most of the companies I seethat do really well have a
product that can sell and makemoney already.
So I have not worked or seenproducts work very successfully
that are not already monetized,are not already driving sales.
Now, those sales might be small, they might be minimal, they

(18:03):
may not be global, but there'ssomething.
So this company that I workedfor got 3% to 6% of every
nightly engagement that they had, so there was always money
coming in.
It wasn't a ton.
I started with them in 2010.
They started in 2008, and theystruggled to get funding.

(18:24):
No one would believe that now,right, but like they struggled
for three years to get any kindof funding and then, right, as I
was there, they turned thecorner and it felt like
everybody knew who they werefrom people thinking it was a
weird idea.
So you know it's like you haveto be progressive and visionary,
but it has to make businesssense.

Speaker 1 (18:41):
You got to make product market fit has to be.
Is is super important.
Product market fit Yep.

Speaker 2 (18:46):
And I think the thing about this company it had that
really functional tactical likehere's where I go to get this
thing that I want.
And then it had beautifulaesthetics.
So you would look at someonewho maybe wasn't living in a
fancy place.
You could go, look at otherplaces that people live that
were beautiful, and you coulddream about maybe living in

(19:08):
those places.
Maybe it was just a couplenights, but that gave you a
little bit of a fantasy, or youknow a warm feeling or, and so
it's expanded since then.
But those were the early daykind of markers of success.
And then, quite frankly, it wasus.
It was me, it was the otherwomen of color.
There were two other women ofcolor there that were in lead

(19:29):
roles in founding what I callfounding roles at the company
that you never hear about now,Like you just never.
They never got the publicity,but we're the ones that did the
hiring, we're the ones that wentout into the community, we're
the ones that built it brick bybrick.
Now, I'm not saying that theengineers and all the other
people that made it function inthose sorts of ways were not

(19:52):
also critical, but most of thetime, startup people and
founders forget about theinternal people.
I call them and my book will becalled one day the people who
actually do the work.

Speaker 1 (20:03):
Ooh, yes, yeah, and my book will be called one day,
the people who actually do thework.

Speaker 2 (20:06):
So maybe a little less sexy, because we don't look
like them, though there aremore of us in these spaces now
than there ever were, and so Idon't know that that's even true
anymore, but it is the thing Ilove about the tech space in
particular and now I work kindof across marketplaces is that

(20:28):
you're not always caught up in alot of red tape, so you can see
the impact of your work muchmore quickly yeah, move, they
move faster, satisfying theymove faster and then you also
can see your failures.
So the main thing I would sayalso about successful startups
is is they fail faster, andthat's a term.
I don't even know who firstsaid that, but you can study

(20:49):
lots of companies that figureout either that they've hired
the wrong person quickly or theproduct fit doesn't work and
they pivot and they go.
And so for action orientedpeople like myself and I know
you guys are too these areincredible fits for us
culturally because they allow usto actually do work.
I don't do so well in acorporate setting where I need

(21:09):
permission from a whole stringof people before I can
operationalize something I knowneeds to be done for my people.

Speaker 1 (21:15):
Well, don't go to industrial manufacturing then.

Speaker 2 (21:20):
It's funny, I never had the idea of going there.

Speaker 1 (21:23):
It's funny, I never had the idea of going there.
I mean, it's a different.
But what you're speaking of arethe shifting cultures too, and
the reality is is like when youhave a software product, a SaaS
product, versus your bendingmetal that needs to hold up a
bridge.
You know it's like it'sdifferent, but I think also
you're talking about the ethosof the moving fast, breaking

(21:45):
things, decision-making velocitythat startups have that allow
them to get to the right if theydon't have the right product
market fit.
They get there faster becausethey move at a cadence where
they're iterating constantly andthen when it doesn't work,
they're not sitting there like,oh my God, for a really long
time.
It's like this didn't work,okay, let's scrap it, let's move
on to the next thing.

(22:06):
And I think, more companies.
Having worked in a startupenvironment, having worked in a
kind of a legacy company, I dothink that ethos could be used
more in legacy companies.

Speaker 3 (22:19):
Yeah, for sure I agree, but I was just wondering,
like, when you're describingthese people that you were
looking for when you were hiring, what are some of the elements
that those people had as peoplewho do the work?
Like, what are you looking forwhen you're looking for those
people?

Speaker 2 (22:33):
So I don't consider myself a DEIB specialist, but I
do.
Everything that I do is,hopefully, imbued with that
sensitivity and consciousness.
So, for example, I had acustomer service team of 16.
I was asked by the CEO to growit to 150.
Well, how am I going to do that?
And I was told to build it outdomestically and internationally

(22:57):
because we were moving intoEurope.
And so what I did know how todo from this retail experience
previously was we actually werehiring 100 to 200 people every
couple of months for a sale or aholiday.
Now I actually knew how tofunctionally do that.
How do you interview people?
How do you get people in thedoor?

(23:17):
That's a lot of people.
That's a ton of people and Ididn't appreciate that at the
time I didn't know that thisexperience that I was having in
this corporate entity, which Ithought was a miserable place to
be, was actually setting me upfor success later in life,
because a lot of people don'tknow how to do that.
It would be very overwhelmingfor me.
It was just like okay, and thenI just went and did it, and that

(23:41):
meant that I operationalizedthe process of interviewing,
screening, you know bringing in,flying them in, you know
finding them places to stay, andthen you know enrolling them
and onboarding them officially.
So it was like every two weeksI had another 12 people coming
in the door to do this processand we were constantly
interviewing.

(24:01):
So 20 minute interviews for thewhole day, that's all I did for
weeks and weeks and weeks andweeks, and so I think what I
always looked for was that whichthis isn't going to sound
necessarily too scientific, butI looked for someone that had
the customer service energy,professionalism that I had grown

(24:23):
up with.
So I also grew up I would workin the summers working at
restaurants.
So I think people fromrestaurants are incredible.

Speaker 3 (24:31):
Oh, my God Great education.

Speaker 2 (24:32):
Hire them to do anything, because they will
fucking figure it out Um same so, restaurants, retail.
I hired a lot of stay at homemoms, um, who had actual work
experience but they didn't wantto go back to a full-time job,
say.
And then I hired folks straightout of college, literally.
I remember one guy I'm still intouch with a lot of these

(24:56):
people.
He had just graduated fromcollege the day before.
I hired him the next day, flewhim to San Francisco the next
day and he was starting at thiscompany within two weeks and he
stayed there for, I think, eightyears.
So, even though these decisionswere made very quickly and
repetitively, I had a real senseof what was going to work for

(25:20):
my team, and part of that is youhave to know what you like and
you have to know what you workwell with.
So we always want to havediversity and inclusion, but you
also have to know this type ofpersonality isn't going to be
necessarily a great fit for thisteam, or actually I have a gap
here and I do need this kind ofperson to challenge some of
these ideas.
But a lot of times in customerservice teams you need it to

(25:44):
work smoothly.
You need a little bit less ofthe dissension or the resistance
or the challenges.
Maybe you might need that moreso on an engineering or a
product team, but it is justabout knowing and testing out
what works and what doesn't andthen moving really quickly to
get it done.
So, luckily for me, I have asense of that already, a belief.

(26:05):
I know how to do that, and thenI also like to create the
platforms and the operations,the workflows that support it.
So I did all of that at thesame time and you know it just,
I got really lucky with the mostamazing people.
So I'm really proud of the workthat I did there.
And then that launched my wholerest of my career doing HR and

(26:27):
tech, because people knew it'skind of a small world.
People knew the work that I'ddone.
They also knew the reallyspecific scaling work that I had
done, because 50 to 500's myniche yeah, yeah, and you know
other I can easily work in otherspaces, but I love this space

(26:50):
where nothing's really in placeyet and it's you're a builder,
creative from scratch I'm abuilder, yeah, yeah, build, yeah
, build my way.

Speaker 1 (26:58):
Build versus optimize , yeah, and it's like there
really are two different types.
Um, I feel like each other justjust kind of along the lines of
people and talent and findingthe right talent.
It seems like there was aperiod where there were all
these exposés on startups andjust you know, just you know,
and I think to the point youmade earlier, you've got people

(27:20):
who are very bright, they get alot of with a good idea and a
lot of money, but they're notnecessarily leaders, they're not
managers.
And you know idea and a lot ofmoney, but they're not
necessarily leaders, they're notmanagers.
And you know, without you'relike no kidding, and without
disclosing the names of you knowany of those companies.
I'm just curious, especially inthis niche that you work in,
what are like some commonmistakes that you see A lot of

(27:43):
our audience are like maybethey're side hustling it,
they're trying to build theirown, I think.
I think people have theentrepreneurial bug and they
don't realize all the pitfallsthat come, you know, come in
place, with trying to, you know,start your own business.
So I'd love your thoughts on onwhat do you see over and over
again.

Speaker 2 (28:01):
Over and over again, I see founders who think that HR
compliance liability is allsomething they can just figure
out on their own.

Speaker 3 (28:11):
What what are you saying?
You need to have a skill.

Speaker 2 (28:16):
Bad idea.
Some experience, some knowledge.
I don't know why HR is deemedso they will bring in.
This is like a classic fixnon-fix.
They'll bring in a chief ofstaff and no HR experience,
typically someone fresh out ofschool.
Now again, we can Google a lotof things.

Speaker 1 (28:38):
But not everything employment law Just like we
would in Google medicine.

Speaker 2 (28:49):
Exactly, and just the sensitivity to be sitting in a
room and hear something and know, oops, time for me to call the
employment lawyer.
This is a no-go, or just humanbeings are non-predictive.
So sitting in a room, nojudgment, listening to your
employee and trying to thinkabout how you can support them
better, as opposed to I justneed you to do the thing so I

(29:10):
can get the money or whatever.
You know, some founders arevery oriented in that in that
way, but ultimately very smartkids who have been taught by a
lot of the same people, they'vegone to a lot of the same
schools.
They have no managementexperience themselves, no people
management experiencethemselves, and yet they are

(29:30):
convinced that they can do thiswithout help and a lot of times
they do very poorly at it.
And so then I'm being called into kind of scrub and audit and
clean up the messes and some ofthose things you can't clean up,
because now you have made animpression with your employees.
They are not impressed and allof that could have easily been
avoided with an inexpensiveconsultant.

Speaker 1 (29:52):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (29:54):
So yeah.

Speaker 3 (29:55):
Can't Google an HR handbook.

Speaker 1 (29:57):
I was going to say don't Google employment law.
So this is boys and girls, donot Google employment law.
I will just say people thinkanyone can do marketing.
As a chief marketing officer, Iwill tell you people do think
anyone can do marketing.
They do.

Speaker 3 (30:11):
It's the same thing.
People have a lot of thoughtsabout being able to do a lot of
things.
in my experience, yes, I had aclient once that had more than
500 employees but they didn'thave an HR in-house person and I
was like what's going on here?
So some of us are out hereflying by the seat of our pants
and we're thankful for peoplelike you, Jabu.

(30:33):
So I am curious about yourexperience in these like really
fast paced, high growth startupsYou're turning around.
You know 100, 200 headcount injust a couple of weeks.
Have you experienced burnoutand, if so, how did you manage
it?

Speaker 2 (30:50):
Yeah, I think I didn't even know what burnout
was.
I was really addicted toworking and getting things done
and the impact I was seeing andI really one of the things that
happens when you have burnout isyou start to, you get a little

(31:12):
delusional, you, you, I wouldn'ttake a vacation.
I would not take a vacation,like I thought if I was gone two
weeks the company would fall,like, and that's, and you, you
actually will talk and meet alot of people who think that
about their jobs, and that'swhen you know they have lost
touch with reality or theyhaven't built a strong enough
team that they think they canleave it.
Either way, it's not good, it'snot a good look.
So, um, I think I was reallystruggling.

(31:35):
Like you know, the first thingto kind of go is your physical
cause.
You're just sitting in, you'reworking all day, and so I would
do these, you know, trail runson the weekends and I would get
injured over and over and myknees were crazy and, um, you
know, I wasn't sleeping well, Iall I could really think or talk

(31:55):
about was work, like I reallydidn't have a life outside of
that and work was reallyfulfilling.
And you, you have this group ofpeople that are similarly
focused.
So you don't feel like you'remissing anything.
You have a mission.
So it has taken many, manyyears of me, you know, really
being physically having to stopbecause my knees were like being

(32:16):
blown out, and so now I do yoga.
You know there's just hugeshifts that you have to make in
order to get that under controland it is an addiction, I
believe.
So you're addicted to theadrenaline and the cortisol and
you have to replace that withother things and that takes time
.
So I have friends that I'mobserving them going through
this change and I just know it'sgoing to take time.

(32:38):
Like you are used to having afull dance card and you really
don't know how to live lifewithout that and you still lost
Like.
I remember the first day I hadan unscheduled day, nothing
planned and no work to do.
I was scared, like I literallydidn't know and it's crazy.
This is like maybe eight yearsago now.
But I knew then that I reallyneed to focus on getting myself

(33:02):
back to a more balanced,integrated place and so I
started developing kind of myspiritual side, my physical side
, getting that back on track,how I was eating at the time I
started doing intermittentfasting, which you know there's
lots of different things tothink about that now as I'm in
my 50s, but at the time that wasan amazing, empowering

(33:25):
experience for me to learn thatI could control how my body
looked and felt and control whenI ate.
So it was kind of likedeveloping more self-discipline
around self-care, which soundsso much easier than it actually
is, and then also, additionally,the thing that not everybody
talks about financially, andthen also, additionally, the
thing that not everybody talksabout financially looking at my

(33:45):
finances, why am I spendingeverything that I make?
How is that an example ofself-love and self-care?
Well, it's not, but that's avery common thing that people do
.
When they have scarcity notions, they will blow through
anything they make and thenwonder why they still feel poor.
So I didn't have anybody reallyto talk to about these things,

(34:06):
but I was just steadily.
The one thing I think aboutmyself is that I will look at
myself and just brutally like,do an interrogation and audit of
what's working and what's not.
But it's taken many years and Imay not be there still.
It's a work in progress.

Speaker 3 (34:23):
So how do you then harness the learnings that you
got for yourself in sort of thisHR chief advisor role for
startup leaders who are tryingto infuse that culture while
they're building somethingrapidly.

Speaker 2 (34:37):
Well, all of the attributes that I'm describing
to you are exemplative of afounder personality, a CEO
personality.
So we may not be CEOs, but wemay have that personality.
So, given that that is reallytruly my personality, and I have
tried many times to start myown businesses and I really

(34:57):
always will it's very easy tocoach someone from that place of
truth.
I know what it's like to feelburned out.
I know what it's like to thinkyour worth is determined by how
much you make or how yourcompany's doing.
I know how it is to take hugerisks to put it all in, to leave
and go to another country tostart another company.
So there's no judgment, there'sno shame.

(35:20):
It's just.
How can I support you to get tothis next level where you are
actually living a life that youlove and enjoy and have joy in?
Like joy is the next level stepthat we're all trying to attain
.

Speaker 1 (35:34):
I love that, and I can imagine the founders you
work with really appreciate that, because they're going fast,
they have a ton of pressure andthe more funding they get, the
more pressure they have, andneeding to have someone who is
in their corner and is not partof the rabble like is, I think,

(35:58):
a really and and who can betruly a confidant and a trusted
advisor.
I think it's a gift, so I lovethat you do that?

Speaker 2 (36:11):
Yeah, no, it's something that most CEOs have
never experienced.
So they've never had a partner.
Even if they've had aco-founder or COO, they haven't
had someone they can just talkto honestly about what's working
and what's not.
And so having someone that alsocan keep you on track, like
yeah, I know you feel that way,but that's not legal, I'm going

(36:34):
to need you to cease and desistwith that.
Please, let me just help you.
Oh, I've had a lot of thoseconversations too Like we can't
do that.

Speaker 1 (36:45):
We can't do that, please God.

Speaker 2 (36:47):
Please please God this new way of moving and
seeing and presenting theproduct or whatever it is that

(37:08):
you're working on, and I see HRas that a lot as well.
It can be sensitive becauseit's about people and it's about
emotions, but it's still aboutsupporting them to be the best
leaders that they can be.

Speaker 1 (37:20):
Yeah, and Jamba, you haven't talked a lot about this,
but I think and maybe this is agreat place to talk about sort
of the trends in HR.
But you're really like, whenyou're a chief people officer
and I don't know that peoplefully understand all that's
imbued in that role, becauseit's not just hiring people and

(37:40):
making sure people get paid ontime, you know you're an advisor
, you are you're working withthe board, you're working with
boards, you are one of theirchief risk management officers,
like there's so much that goesinto it, and so I just, you know
, I'm curious, and maybe this isthe maybe.
Here's.
The question is, as you've, asyou've watched the role of chief

(38:04):
people officer, even the namehas evolved, right, you know we
went from chief, you know CHRO,which is still used in,
particularly in legacy companies.
What are you seeing in terms ofthe evolution of the chief
people officer or even just inHR more broadly?
Take either or both questions.

Speaker 2 (38:25):
Yeah, I may suck at this question because I work so
uniquely with my clients and inmy own way now that I don't
follow a lot of traditionalmores.
But I will say the chief peopleofficer being sort of a more
progressive sense of someonethat advocates both for

(38:46):
employees and for the company,so trying to find integration of
both sets of values and bringthem together so that you're
both kind of headed in the samedirection.
That when I started this workwas not typical at all.
Like HR, people were wereconsidered the enemy by
employees and some, some stilldo.

Speaker 1 (39:05):
Yeah, I was going to say depending on where you work.
Yeah, you see our faces.

Speaker 3 (39:13):
There's a lot of TikToks about HR leaders.

Speaker 2 (39:15):
There's a lot of TikToks and they're not wrong.

Speaker 1 (39:19):
They're neither human nor resourceful.
We see a lot.

Speaker 2 (39:22):
Yeah, there are some miserable people out there.
People are saying not me.
People out there.
People are saying not me peopleare saying, I'm also saying I
am also saying too so I learnedfrom some of the best worst HR
people in the world.
I literally learned how to letpeople go from their jobs

(39:43):
because I was fired.
So in such a bad experienceslike that.
And now I try to teach mypeople you should fire people
the same way you welcome them onboard.

Speaker 1 (39:56):
Yeah, say that again.

Speaker 2 (39:58):
Oh my.

Speaker 1 (39:58):
God, so many bad, so many bad firings.
So I've been fired so badlywhere I'm just like I just you
want to reach across and slapthem.
Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (40:08):
Yes, yes, so you know there's still people, I'm sure,
who are like, yeah, whatever.
But I really try to go intoevery conversation I have,
whether it's with my CEO or anemployee, with the intention to
bring the highest good to thatsituation.
Oh, I like that, the intentionto bring the highest good to
that situation.

Speaker 3 (40:25):
Oh.

Speaker 1 (40:26):
I like that and you can't always.

Speaker 2 (40:27):
Sometimes it's going to be what it's going to be and
people take themselves to theplaces that they get to.
But there are times when I cantell an employee look, you seem
miserable here, which I wishsomeone had told me in some of
my jobs and actually some peopledid you seem miserable here,
why are you still here?
Like, why are you still here?
Try to find yourself in a placethat feels good to you.

(40:50):
If this isn't it, you do knowyou don't have to stay.
Like I do think there's afeeling of like being trapped
that people sort of absorb.
So I know I'm wildly off ofyour question right now, but I
would say, yeah, I hope what'shappening in the HR space is
that HR people are feeling thattheir work is really sacred work

(41:11):
and holding people's trust andit's really tough to do this but
holding employees trust andholding the CEO, the founder's
trust, and honoring both ofthose perspectives and then
trying to find something in themiddle that serves both that's
not always going to happen.
So you need to be an adultenough to be able to say to your

(41:32):
CEO and this is where a lot ofHR people struggle People
mistake HR.
So recruiting is a yes roleRecruiters.
You say I need 20 people.
The recruiter says, yes, let mego do that for you.
The recruiter says, yes, let mego do that for you.
Hr is a no role.
You say to the HR I need 20people.
Hr says no, boss, we don't havethe structure, the money I get

(41:56):
into the finances right Like wedon't have the insurance.
We're not able to do that now.
If you want to start doing itslowly over the next four
quarters, so if you start as arecruiter and then you become an
HR person, you have to developthe know skill Interesting.

Speaker 1 (42:13):
Super interesting.

Speaker 3 (42:14):
And both of those people need to have the EQ
quality that you described Like.
When I hear you say boom thatpart I hear is put the human
back in HR because people havekind of forgotten that you're
dealing with people Right andyou don't have to sort of-.
Right Not widgets, not widgets,not avatars.
Even in a distributed companyor online, they're still humans

(42:36):
and they have whole lives thatwe're kind of responsible for.
So I appreciate that yeah.

Speaker 1 (42:41):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (42:42):
And then, on the other side of it, people
sometimes like to think that HRis also inhuman.
So, recognizing that this issomeone you know, like I have
been brought in and you know agirl has to eat, so I'm going to
make some money too, and so Ihave had years, especially the
last four years, where all I can, the only jobs I can get, are

(43:04):
reorg layoffs.
And the thing is, they don'ttell you that at the beginning.
They tell you once they've hiredyou, we're going to be cutting
50% of the company.
You're helping guidance to dothat.
And then you're in thishorrible position where the
employees don't know you don'ttrust you and they shouldn't,
and then you're also needing tousher them out the door.

Speaker 1 (43:27):
That's awful.

Speaker 2 (43:29):
Graceful way.
So it just is kind of like noone really this is the other
thing I would say no one reallyowes us anything Like no one
owes you anything in life.
So anything you get is ablessing and we all need to be
caring and graceful and lovingto each other to the furthest
extent of our capacity.
Even if somebody is firing you,there's just no reason for it

(43:51):
to ever get crazy.
Save that for when you're home,at home, and yet and yet, and
yet no.

Speaker 1 (44:01):
But I appreciate that so much, Jabu, because I do
think we're kind of in an agewhere some of those basic
leadership skills are beingforgotten.
Companies are cutting a lot ofcorners, you know, in tech, a
lot of times they don't even dopeople development at all.
There's no sending people toleadership courses or anything
like that.
So people are really, they'rereally bad at the hard parts of

(44:25):
this, of that job.
And you're talking, and I whatI hear you also, you know,
arguing for, is like we'retalking about whole human beings
and people's livelihoods too.
That's the part I think thatalways really bothers me when I
see these mass layoffs is thatit's like you know, you had to
have known when you were scaling, hiring all these people, yeah,

(44:46):
Like you know, it's just I wantto you would think, but they
don't.

Speaker 2 (44:51):
A lot of times they listen to a board.
I know, you know investors andthey want to see them scale.
They want that to be the newsand they have no idea.
A lot of investors have neverbuilt their own companies, or
it's like a one-off thing, orthey went to school and they
worked at Goldman Sachs, butagain, they had not built their
own company.

Speaker 1 (45:09):
Yeah, they don't know how to make payroll.
They don't know what it meansto make a payroll.

Speaker 2 (45:13):
They have no idea what and why one payroll company
is better than another payrollcompany.
They just don't know thesethings, and yet they have nerve
to tell their CEOs and theirfounders how to do them, and
that's where the problem lies.
So if you have a weak, young,inexperienced founder who

(45:34):
doesn't know how to separatethemselves from their board in
terms of leadership, it's goingto be a problem.
So, again, as you mentioned,those are things that I coach on
too the delicate relationshipsthat you know, and it's about
being conscious and thoughtfulabout all the people you have
around you.
As a founder, who's on yourboard?
Yes, I know they can give youmoney, but are you going to like
working with them?

Speaker 1 (45:52):
Oh, this is a good one.

Speaker 2 (45:53):
Structure, good culture, cultural values, like
have they built a company youwould want to work at?
Probably not, so these arethings people don't think about
when they're looking for funding.

Speaker 1 (46:05):
Do you I know we're hitting time, but do you I'm
curious do you advise your CEOson board recruitment or when
you're coming on board?
When you're coming on board, isthe board typically mostly
intact?
I'm glad that's not my dog,because usually my dog well,

(46:25):
he'll be jumping out of his facesometimes my dog, because
usually my dog.

Speaker 2 (46:31):
Well, he'll be jumping out of his face
sometimes.
Yes, I'm happy to advise on thatand happy even to interview
potential board members forpeople, because I think that's a
lot of times the founderdoesn't know what to ask,
doesn't know what to look for,and there are real warning signs
.
I mean, I've worked with acouple of CEOs this year that
had boards that were incrediblydishonest and you know I could

(46:54):
tell you stories, but you knowit just.
You may think it's not a bigdeal, but then when you're
trying to run your companyyou're going to find a lot of
opposition and resistance and ormaybe they have different
politics than you do.
You know I have a.
CEO and her board member.
One of her board members was,you know, fundraising for Trump

(47:16):
and that goes very counter toher own personal political
beliefs and the beliefs of thecompany, which is a green tap
company, and so there was a lotof like friction there, which
you know.
We think politics shouldn'tplay a role in our professional
lives, but they do.
And some of our inability tohave these uncomfortable

(47:39):
conversations.
To be honest, I think it's acultural like it's a viral
disease.
I'll speak to American culture.
None of us knows how to do thisin our personal relationships,
in our intimate relationshipswith family members, in the
church, in the community,whatever are the collective
spaces that you live in and workin, and we all are struggling

(48:00):
with how to say theuncomfortable things, and we
have to get better.
We take it all with us to work.
There's no degree of separation.
I wish there was, but there'snot.

Speaker 3 (48:10):
That's so good.
All right, Jabu, before we jumpinto the fun segment of the pod
where we ask you someungoverned, ungovernable
questions.

Speaker 1 (48:19):
And sometimes unhinged.
Sometimes unhinged too.
Just so you know, You've beenwarned.

Speaker 3 (48:23):
Perfect.
I'd love for you to leave withour listeners the number one
thing you think most startupsshould focus on to aim for
long-term success.
What would that number onething mean as a chief people
officer and advisor to startups?

Speaker 2 (49:09):
no-transcript.
The better your company willscale and grow and the more
chances you have to besuccessful.
I truly believe that, and allof the companies that I've been
with started with HR from, andall of the companies that I've
been with started with HR from,let's say, zero to 50.

(49:31):
So considered very early in thetech space but, honestly, the
earlier the better.

Speaker 3 (49:41):
Well, in the show notes we're going to have info
about how folks can find you ifthey need to hire an HR advisor.
Listeners or make arecommendation to maybe your
boss or your boss's boss to hirean HR advisor if you work at a
startup.

Speaker 1 (49:51):
And we know a lot of startups need the support, so
we're not going to call anybodyout, though, Okay.

Speaker 3 (50:02):
So, jabu, just to kick off our lightning round, we
have a few questions for you.
The only rule is that we don'twant you to overthink it.

Speaker 1 (50:10):
We want you to share with us the first thing that
comes to mind I could do that Ithink.

Speaker 3 (50:15):
Okay, first question what is a motto or phrase that
defines your personality ormindset?

Speaker 2 (50:24):
We got to get it done .
Get it done.
You didn't die.
I'm going to do two, but didyou die though?

Speaker 3 (50:34):
okay, okay, so the pipeline from this isn't legal
to.
But did you die?

Speaker 2 (50:42):
I'm a complex person.
I am in tatters, don't?

Speaker 1 (50:49):
I'm in tatters.
Okay, I let me, let me.
Let me pick my jaw up off thetable.
Jabu, what is one book you findyourself gifting or
recommending over and over?

Speaker 2 (51:06):
okay, people are gonna think this is hilarious,
but tim ferris four-hour workreally changed you recommended
it to me I, I did, and he issuch a white boy.
He's better now.
Yeah, yeah he's matured.
I feel like he's matured a lotum he has matured right, right
so, but you know 100% it's justsuch a big thinker and the way

(51:30):
that he thought broke up anylike the idea that you could
work for four hours a day,living which is not it's
aspiration.

Speaker 1 (51:38):
It's the aspiration made me think oh I don't have to
work seven days a week.
Yeah, it's the aspiration, sothat allowed me to get really
creative best purchase under 150you've made oh my god I love
how she's talking to herselflike so many parts, so many

(51:59):
purchases, so many purchasesrecent maybe think of recent
purchase answer that question.

Speaker 2 (52:12):
Like I have problems, like I have recently had to.
Like my vision is goingbasically and I love women who
wear glasses.
I always have, but I didn'tneed to wear them.

Speaker 1 (52:24):
Now I have, like all the you have the scattered
readers around the house, nice.

Speaker 2 (52:31):
I do because I may need them at any moment, and the
way that I found out I neededglasses was I was on a date with
a younger person I won't saysignificantly, but he may have
been a significantly younger manand I was looking.
I couldn't read.
Read the menu.
I could not read the menu I'mdead, I'm dying.

Speaker 1 (52:54):
Well, hang on, I'm invested, I'm invested, I'm
invested.
What did you do?
Did you take a picture of themenu and then try to enlarge it?

Speaker 2 (53:03):
I did, and then finally that wasn't working and
it wasn't smooth.
I can't really read and I'mdying was, this was a?
This was a restaurant, as I saton their board, so I I like, so
they were all being incredibleof the right.

(53:25):
It's a really dope restaurant insan francisco and they have
multiple restaurants and theyset it up like a startup, so
they have investors, likethey're so amazing, so smart,
and this was a new menu and anew one of their restaurants and
they were just like taking careof me in this most exquisite
way and I really needed to beable to read the damn menu.
And I didn't know this guy wellenough and he was like this

(53:50):
beautiful man and I really didnot want to admit that I, so I
just finally I said you know,this is the cop out, right.
I said to the person helping uslike could you just tell me
what it is that you really,really love?
I suggest a wine.
I was like could you read thewine?
That's smooth.
But as a result I had my firstHungarian wine.

(54:11):
Look how bougie I sound, but Ihad my first.
I experienced things I wouldnot have experienced because
they were helping.

Speaker 1 (54:17):
This is a master recovery and you couldn't read
them.

Speaker 2 (54:20):
Master recovery.
Thank you, I was really tryingit was the first day I agree it
was the first date.
I agree it was important.

Speaker 1 (54:28):
Oh, you know what?
This is why I love Tiffany, thelightning round, because it
never ceases to just completely,just slay me, okay.
Well, this, I feel like thismay undo us all here.
It may end us, which is what isa secret, unpopular opinion
that you hold.
Don't hold back, don't holdback.

Speaker 3 (54:53):
The people complain too much.
Yes, with no action, cause youalready said you're about your
act.
I just want to complain.
You want to complain, you justwant to come and talk.

Speaker 2 (55:02):
You talked to me about this last week, Like what
you?
Have you made any changes?
No, you just talking.
I just don't.

Speaker 3 (55:08):
So you're not a Virgo .
I've got questions because thisis giving Virgo energy.

Speaker 2 (55:13):
Yeah, I do have Virgo and I'm trying to think where
my placement is.
It's in a very important place,but I'm a Scorpio, sagittarius,
cancer, moon, taurus rising.

Speaker 1 (55:27):
Oh, I didn't know you had the Taurus.

Speaker 2 (55:28):
That explains a few things and I love my favorite.
Not that I would everdiscriminate based on astrology
sign, but my favorite hire formy own team are Virgos.
I adore them, naturally,naturally.

Speaker 1 (55:43):
Naturally, virgos can get shit.
They get shit done.
They can be a little, they canbe a little, they can be a
little much.

Speaker 2 (55:49):
They are never too much for me.
They never complain.
They're so sweet, thank you.
Thank you, Jabu.

Speaker 3 (55:59):
Thank you, Jabu.
There was just a little slanderin the chat, but I appreciate
it.

Speaker 1 (56:06):
Maybe it's just the Virgos that are born on
Beyonce's birthday.

Speaker 3 (56:11):
That's all.

Speaker 1 (56:11):
I'm saying let the record state I didn't bring it
up, we have done enough of thisso it wasn't me, for our
listeners.

Speaker 3 (56:19):
I do share a business with beyonce, but I didn't I'm
looking for my virgo placementtiffany this way.

Speaker 1 (56:24):
This tiffany yes, there's a birthday with beyonce.
We just we have to share thisevery episode, just to make sure
everyone knows.

Speaker 2 (56:30):
People need to know my Virgo is in Pluto.

Speaker 1 (56:33):
The people need to know.

Speaker 2 (56:34):
Virgo is in Pluto.
That is a very weightyplacement.

Speaker 3 (56:38):
It was the talk about it and do nothing for me.
I was like, oh, we got to beconnected, because what are we
doing?

Speaker 2 (56:44):
And we did not die Sisters from another mother, but
did you die, though?
These things are all connected.

Speaker 1 (56:49):
But did you die?
You can't play flip cup in theoffice, but you need to make
sure everybody's alive at theend of the day.

Speaker 2 (56:55):
Okay, that's why HR.
When I was HR at a lot of thesestartups, I did not go to the
parties, because nobody wants HRat the parties, so I would just
.

Speaker 1 (57:06):
This is true.
Nobody wants HR at the parties.
Don't.

Speaker 2 (57:10):
But yeah, don't make it not fun.
Last question for you, jabu whatdoes it mean to be an
ungovernable woman to you, it isa great description for someone
who will not be contained,managed or otherwise constrained
, and if you think about thejourney that we're all on which

(57:32):
I'm assuming you're all in thiswith me together we are all
trying to expand and become ourgreatest self, whatever that is,
and so someone who is beinggoverned is someone who is being
contained and constricted, andthey are smaller than they
should be, and I am absolutelynot for that.
No ceilings, no ceilings, noceilings, nothing.

Speaker 1 (57:54):
No ceilings.
Javu Dayton, thank you so muchfor joining us today, for
kicking down some wisdom andhaving some fun with us too.
Thank you for having me Adoreyou both we us too.

Speaker 2 (58:07):
Thank you for having me Adore you both.

Speaker 1 (58:08):
We appreciate you.

Speaker 2 (58:10):
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (58:12):
Thanks for listening to Ungovernable Women.
Our producer and editor isMegan King.
Our social media manager isDestiny Eicher.
Be sure to rate, review andsubscribe to our show on Apple
Podcasts, spotify or whereveryou listen to your pods.
Your ratings help otherlisteners find us.
You can follow and DM us onInstagram at ungovernablexwomen,

(58:34):
and TikTok atungovernablexwomen.
See you next time you.