November 1, 2024 • 39 mins
Do you consider yourself a leader within your organization? We are joined by Juilia Fabris McBride, the Chief Learning and Development Officer of the Kansas Leadership Center, to discuss how leadership is evolving. Julia shares about her interesting career journey and how everyone can and should exercise leadership.
Have a question or comment? Email us at ungovernablewomen@gmail.com.
Portia Mount on LinkedIn
Tiffany Waddell Tate on LinkedIn
Julia Fabris McBride on LinkedIn
Kansas Leadership Center Website
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Portia Mount, creator and host of
Ungovernable Women, formerly theManifesta Podcast, the
lifestyle and career podcast foraspiring women.
Our new name reflects ourmission to reach even more
listeners with stories of womenwho are breaking boundaries and
redefining success.
I have a favor to ask you, ifyou haven't done so already,
please rate and subscribe to thepod.
(00:21):
Wherever you listen to yourpodcasts, it boosts our rankings
and helps more people discoverus.
Thanks for tuning in.
Welcome to Season 5 ofUngovernable Women, the career
and lifestyle podcast foraspiring women ready to break
barriers.
I'm Portia Mouw and I'mthrilled to be back with my
co-host, tiffany Waddell-Tate,ceo of Career Maven Consulting.
(00:43):
We've got a new name, but ourmission remains stronger than
ever helping women find theirpurpose, lead high-impact
careers and meaningful lives.
This season will bring you thestories of women who forged
their own paths to success.
It's our time to shine.
Let's dive in in.
(01:14):
I'll start with this passage,chapter five.
Plenty of people in importantpositions never exercise
leadership.
The world is full of bad andmediocre bosses, coaches,
presidents and CEOs.
Leadership position andleadership team are outdated
terms from a model that nolonger works.
The leadership as a positionmodel is collapsing.
(01:37):
The world is moving too fast.
The pace of change is toounforgiving.
Organizations that expectpeople at the top to do all the
leading won't thrive.
At best they'll survive.
And towards the end of thispassage, this chapter goes on to
say the traditional leadershipas authority model lets the rest
(02:01):
of us off the hook.
We tell ourselves that since wearen't in charge, we aren't
responsible for what's wrong.
We say it's the CEO's fault orthe governor's fault or the
pastor's fault.
We leave the creativity, riskand responsibility for change to
someone else, someone higher onthe org chart.
(02:28):
This passage is from whenEveryone Leads, the Toughest
Challenges Get Seen and Solved.
And I'm so pleased to have withus today.
This is co-authored by EdO'Malley and Julia Fabris
McBride, and we're fortunate tohave Julia here with us today.
She's the Chief Learning andDevelopment Officer at the
(02:49):
Kansas Leadership Center.
Julia, welcome.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Thank you so much, Portia.
Tiffany, it's great to be here.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
We are so delighted to have you here because so many
of our audience are people whowould think, hey, I just, you
know, I'm a middle manager.
I don't.
I'm not, I don't have the power, authority to lead, like what,
I don't have the, I'm not on the, I don't have the pay grade, I
don't have this equity, I don'thave the office, and so I'm
(03:20):
super excited to dive into thistopic.
So, just really quickly, theKansas Leadership Center is a
nonprofit organization whosemission is to transform civic
life in Kansas and beyond,because that's how we met you.
We met you in the beyond bycreating a culture where
everyday people exerciseleadership and engage others to
(03:41):
make progress on their toughestchallenges.
So I think we should just jumpright into it.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
And I'm so glad you started with that passage.
I love that passage, especiallythe part of it lets us off the
hook.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
Julia, you know it's awesome to hear the context and
the background of what and whereyou do your work, but can you
tell us a little bit more aboutyou and how you got interested
in the field of leadership tobegin with?
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Yeah, I started out as an actor.
I went to the Royal Academy ofDramatic Art.
Yeah, I love that Until I was40, I defined myself first as an
actor.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
Awesome.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
Yeah.
So I went to the Royal Academyof Dramatic Art.
I came back to Chicago and Iworked with theater companies
that ranged from one that had amission to provoke debate about
social and political issues,another one that was focused on
LGBT life and issues, anotherone that was a physical theater,
(04:57):
and for a while there I wasearning money doing training
films and doing theater at night.
That was more passion driventhan money driven and I loved it
.
It took me quite a long time tolet go of that as kind of my
(05:20):
definition of myself, but aftera while I realized that I didn't
love the training film stuff.
It wasn't why I went intotheater.
Why I went into theater wasstorytelling and helping people
(05:41):
to know one another, helpingpeople to connect.
So at a certain point I went towork in nonprofits and I had
learned to raise money in thetheater.
So I took a director ofdevelopment job at one
organization and then another,and then I was promoted to a
deputy director at Arts AllianceIllinois and it was there that
(06:04):
we started getting curious abouthow do you keep good people in
the field, in the non-profitarts?
And we did research and I'llnever forget an executive
director of Chicago ArtsOrganization saying to me it's a
(06:25):
job I love, but I wouldn't wishit on anybody else.
She was trying to do it all andshe didn't want any training
was coaching on how to be moreeffective at balancing their own
(06:46):
needs in life and this missionthat they love, and they wanted
more skills around being able toget others in the work.
So that's the way I got intocoaching and coaching.
So leadership coaching, andthen I talked my way into
(07:10):
teaching leadership at theUniversity of Chicago.
Basically, somebody had justgotten fired and I said I can do
that Right.
Nonprofit management course.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
The acting training came in handy right.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
And then my crazy husband wanted to.
He's a sculptor and he'sinspired by the prairie, so he
wanted to move to Kansas andlive on the prairie and make art
inspired by the prairie.
So I was just in that kind of amood and I said, yes, but we
(07:43):
must have a baby, and so movedto Kansas and we had a baby and
then the Kansas LeadershipCenter was formed and so here I
am, my baby's now about eightmonths old and I'm ready to go
out into the world.
And I've invited to thisgathering of people in Kansas
(08:04):
who teach, coach, facilitate andconsult around leadership.
And I'm in a room of 150 peopleand Marty Linsky from Harvard is
talking about leadership as anactivity to mobilize people to
make progress on tough, adaptivechallenges.
And everything fell into place.
(08:24):
This leadership is an activityand the idea that it's about our
toughest challenges.
So I you know, somewhere inthere I let go of Julia is an
actor and I really embraced theidea that my purpose is to help
people connect with their trueselves, each other, earth and
(08:49):
spirit.
And I was doing that in thetheater and I was doing that in
coaching and now I'm doing for15 years now here at Kansas
Leadership Center.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
That's so powerful, and as a former theater kid in
college, I appreciate how improvprinciples have brought you
exactly where you needed to be,so thank you tiffany's heart is
yes, I'm just like.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
Yes, that principle of say yes, be there for your
partner, give them a gift, allthat stuff, all of it.
You can't stay on the.
You're part of an improv troupeand you stay on the sidelines.
You're letting everybody downand you're not having any fun
(09:40):
absolutely.
Speaker 3 (09:41):
Uh, julia, can you help our listeners better
understand, now that you are thechief learning and development
officer at Kansas LeadershipCenter?
What does that mean?
What is your day-to-day andwhat does your span of impact
look like?
Speaker 2 (09:55):
You know what?
My son, who was born all thoseyears ago, is now a senior in
high school.
And the other day now a seniorin high school, and the other
day his girlfriend was asking meabout my job and I, you know, I
told her well, we're, we were.
I mean.
The beautiful thing is, and theend of that story is, she said
(10:17):
that sounds better than mostpeople's jobs.
And you know, it's I'm, I'malways we.
We serve about 7 000 people ayear and that's in companies and
communities and organizationsin kansas and then outside of
kansas we work with governmentagencies and I'm doing a webinar
(10:41):
with people in aust next week.
So we have a big reach.
But what those 7,000 peoplehave in common is they want to
make their community or theircompany better, they want to
contribute more effectively andthey want to grow.
(11:02):
And so I get to interact withthose people.
I get to be with a team that isalways trying to design the
next experience to help thosepeople learn and grow and
connect, grow and connect.
(11:31):
And I've walked into thisbuilding now for so many years.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
The vibe in this building, the spirit in this,
building is so good because it'speople who care and want to
make a difference.
I love that so much, julia, andwhat I especially love is you
started as an actor and you'rein this leadership role and I
think so many again I thinkabout so many of our listeners
are thinking like gosh, is therole I'm doing the thing I'm
going to have to do for the restof my natural life?
And what if I don't know?
What, if I can't foresee what Iwant to do?
(12:01):
And I love the natural.
It's the seemingly naturalevolution of, but you're still
using all those core skills thatyou learned as an actor, and so
it's a great.
It's a great sort of testimonyto all of those skills and
competencies you learn earlierin your career can take you into
(12:22):
other places that you I mean Ican't, I can't.
You probably didn't see thatyou were going to be chief
learning and development officerof a leadership center right,
like you probably that wasn't onyour bingo card, but and yet
here youare, and we had the privilege of
meeting you at a, at aconference here in the Southeast
, so it's like it's taking youeverywhere.
I want to kind of pivot alittle bit and ask you about
(12:44):
just the sort of the changingnature of the sort of how we
define leadership.
I'm thinking about companieslike Amazon are like we're
getting rid of middle managers,we don't you know, like
companies or organizations aregetting flatter, and yet people,
leaders, are being asked to doso much more, are being asked to
(13:10):
do so much more.
And so what does an evolveddefinition of leadership look
like, if there is even such athing?
But we'd love your thoughts onthat.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Yeah, I think what you just said about people are
being asked to do so much more.
First of all, an evolveddefinition of leadership is
taking responsibility for makingsure you're doing the most
important thing.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
Ooh, say that again.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
You're going to have a list that's way too long.
And wherever you are in acompany, or if you're a
volunteer, working on a citycouncil or in a school board
your job every day is to thinkabout what's the most important
(13:59):
thing, what's our most importantchallenge, and how can I engage
other people to see their partof this?
And whether it's affordablehousing in the United States,
that's a tough challenge.
(14:20):
Or your company needs to bemore innovative or more
collaborative, or your team isstuck on a project that's due in
a week and people are startingto get sleepy with each other.
What's the most important thingthat you can do to move that
(14:41):
forward?
And if you're in a position ofauthority and we make the
distinction between leadershipand authority how do you create
containers where people can seetheir moments and seize their
moments to exercise leadership?
Speaker 3 (15:02):
Oh, that's excellent, Julia.
I'm curious when you're kind ofdescribing this concept of a
person who might be in atraditional work context or
volunteer space and they see aproblem, are there prerequisites
that individuals need to stepinto that leadership role?
Like what?
(15:23):
Do you have to have to seizeyour moment?
Speaker 2 (15:28):
I think you have to know the distinction between a
technical problem and anadaptive challenge.
And a technical problem is it'sbasically clear, and it can be
solved or fixed by either theright expert or somebody in
(15:50):
authority directing that it getsdone.
And if it's one of those kindsof challenges, well, if you're
the expert, get the resourcesand do it.
If you need somebody else todirect it, let that person know
what's happening.
But if it's the other kind ofchallenge, an adaptive challenge
(16:14):
, those are the challenges wherethere's all kinds of different
perspectives and even valuesrelated to that challenge.
There are no clear solutions.
We need all the stakeholders,or enough of the right
(16:35):
stakeholders in what we call theproductive zone, and we need
people experimenting.
And I think you see thatchallenge and the first thing I
would recommend somebody do ishey, what do you think about
(16:58):
this situation?
Or do you think our team couldbe working together better?
Or have you noticed peoplearen't saying hi to each other,
you know, as regularly as theyused to, and that there seems to
be something going on here?
So you're starting to namesomething and you're starting to
(17:21):
gather data.
I love that.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
You're starting to gather data.
I love that.
I'm struck by as you define, asyou kind of unpack the
difference between the technicaland the adaptive challenge that
at least I can think of so manyorganizations I've worked for.
We've diagnosed everything as atechnical challenge.
Let's go and get experts, let'shire more consultants, let's
get a committee, let's get acommittee together to diagnose
(17:47):
the problem, have lots ofmeetings and then ultimately we
swirl and we don't do anythingabout it because it's like, oh
my God, it's so hard.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
That is rebranding, and they basically put out an
RFP for a consultant to helpthem make sure that rebranding
goes well.
And she invited us in to thisprocess because she understands
that it's everybody in thecompany has a piece of making
this shift successful.
And, yeah, there might need tobe some expertise brought in to
(18:43):
actually do what people withbranding expertise do, but
that's not enough.
There's going to be loss.
There's going to be things thatpeople held dear about the old
way we did it that have to benavigated, and that's the work
(19:06):
of leadership, it's the work ofeverybody.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Julia, we need to later on go for drinks.
So I can tell you all of myrebranding nightmares that
Tiffany already knows about,because I have led many, many
large-scale rebranding effortsand that is truer words have not
been spoken that the easy partis changing a logo.
The hard part is the hearts andminds and all of the change
(19:34):
management that goes on behindit.
So but we will not go through mytrauma here during your time
but I will just say that that isexactly right, and I am still
I'm still trying to recover fromsome of the rebrandings that I
have done.
I'm so sorry Because, but forexactly the reason that you said
right in all seriousness isthat it's, it's not it's, it's.
(19:56):
It's more than the the thing,the technical of changing a
brand.
It's all.
It's what it means and when it,how people are invested in it,
it's all the change managementand so, spot on.
I feel so much better.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Expertise is needed, but it's not enough.
Somebody in authority needs tomake a decision and allocate
resources, but that's not enough, but it's not enough.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
That's exactly right.
That's exactly right.
That's exactly right.
But you know I guess this is asI think about this example it
also strikes me that this is anopportunity for engagement,
right, like?
So.
We've been talking a lot, youknow, there's all kinds of data
out there about employeeengagement and about how
employee engagement is at anall-time low.
(20:45):
I read some statistic that youknow.
I think probably we all look atGallup studies that said
something to the effect thatonly 33% of US employees are
engaged, which is bonkers, andthen that 50% are not engaged
and 16% are actively unengaged.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
Right, which means they're like effectively coming
in to try to destroy and disruptRight.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
First of all, I was like what does actively
unengaged actually mean?
Right, and these are not thequiet quitters, I don't think.
But the serious question islike so, like you know, as you
hear those statistics, what doyou hear in terms of the
opportunity and the implicationsfor this idea that everyone can
(21:38):
lead, everyone should lead?
Speaker 2 (21:40):
Yeah, it's a huge opportunity and we have research
that shows.
When an organization saturatesitself with people who feel
empowered and equipped, yeah, toexercise leadership the way we
talk about it, then thoseemployees become more engaged,
(22:01):
they feel more fulfilled, theyview their organizations as more
trustworthy and open andequitable.
So, like, if I view myorganization as trustworthy,
open and equitable, that's Imean, that's meaningful, that
gives my life meaning.
If I feel like my skill askinga good question or making a
(22:29):
provocative interpretation ofwhat might be going on in a
situation, I feel like that'svalued.
I don't want to go to work.
Speaker 3 (22:41):
Julia in the book you talk about this concept of the
gap.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
Julia in the book you talk about, this.
Conceptlc's boldest aspirationis a culture in Kansas and
beyond where we can makeprogress on our toughest
challenges and thrive.
We're not there yet and in thegap you face things.
(23:27):
The gap is like it's deep anddark because it's full of
people's competing values, theirdisappointment that authority
and expertise aren't enough.
Their disappointment that quickfixes don't work and you have
(23:47):
to experiment and engage,curious and learn.
The idea that get from here tothere there's going to be loss.
And the idea that we're goingto have to negotiate values.
We can't take everything withus.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
That's good.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
The gap to me feels like the ch enough and bring
other people in to look at itand think about it and
brainstorm about it.
Practice leadership to speak toloss, to outline the competing
(24:54):
values and facilitate toughconversations about you know
what we stand to lose and whohas to give up what.
Then we make progress in thegap.
I mean.
Think about there was hundredsof years there was a gap between
women who wanted to be part ofthe democratic process in the
United States and you know, andweren't any aspiration to be
(25:23):
full voters president of theUnited States perhaps and people
had to struggle in that gap foryears, decades, centuries, and
we made it happen.
It was a big adaptive challengeand now it's tech for the most
part.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
One of the things I really love about the book.
You know there's so manyleadership books on the market
and one.
I love it because it'sbeautiful, it's like,
beautifully like, it's so, it'swell put together.
But you use a lot of metaphors,you use a lot of analogies.
(26:03):
There's a lot of.
I think it speaks to differentkind of cognitive styles, I
think, in terms of how it's puttogether, and so I was really
struck by one of your sort ofthe paradigm for tackling
challenges.
It's heat, right, and I'mcurious, like you know.
So let's say, you're a leaderwho recognizes, okay, curious,
(26:27):
like you know, so let's sayyou're a leader who recognizes,
okay, we've got, maybe, adaptiveand technical challenges that
are sort of at play.
I don't want to use the sameold, same old way of trying to
tackle a challenge, like let'sput a committee together, let's
have a lot of meetings and blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, which
never works.
We know that.
But it's what we, a lot of us,a lot of organizations, whether
you're, you know, a for-profitcompany or a nonprofit company
(26:49):
we default to that.
Can you talk about thisparadigm of and and how to, how
to use it?
What does it mean?
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Yeah.
So we talk about using the heatand and and.
Heat is in discomfort.
It's what happens when youstretch beyond your comfort zone
.
It's what happens when youelevate conflict.
So we want to, if we're workingon an adaptive challenge and
(27:24):
I'll use one from ALC's historywe for a long time would talk
about wanting a diverse staffand teaching team and nothing
changed.
We were making a mostly whiteteam for a long time and we,
(27:50):
after over time, we realizedwe're going to have to put more
heat on ourselves, we're goingto have to get more purposeful,
we're going to have to engageacross the organization and we
are going to have to make surewe're seeing progress.
So heat, the productive zone iswhen you have all that, when you
have a shared purpose, enoughof the right people engaged,
(28:14):
actively learning, and you'remaking progress.
So heat was.
I mean, one of the things wedid to elevate the heat was set
goals, and particularly setgoals about how many people of
(28:37):
color were going to be in ourrecruiting pool, you know.
So setting a metric is a way ofraising, doing training, to
help people see theirunconscious bias.
First of all, to name theelephant that there is,
(28:58):
unconscious bias.
That work here and make thatbias conscious so that we can
support each other to workthrough it.
And sometimes, especially insome of those conversations that
we're learning the heat goestoo high and people check out
(29:23):
and they actually becomedisengaged from the challenge.
So the work of leadership andit's not just one person's job
is to try to make sure thatthere's enough heat for long
enough that the challenge getssolved public landscape around
(29:49):
DEI Julia, so I just have toname that.
Speaker 3 (29:54):
I appreciate your comments, especially around bias
and naming.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
I don't even know if it's heat.
I think it's like inferno.
Is there an inferno stage?
Because I feel like it'sinferno.
Speaker 2 (30:05):
I mean there was a period there where we weren't
using the word equity becausethat shocked people out of the
room.
Yeah, when, where?
What we are, our tolerance gota little bigger over the years.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
Yeah, and we've made progress.
What I'm struck by, though, islike it's what I hear is an
intentionality to make oneuncomfortable and to be able to
sit with that discomfort for aperiod of time to make progress
(30:41):
toward whatever challenge we'retrying to overcome, and that
we're all acknowledging.
This is hard, this is making usscratchy, or whatever your
favorite word is, but we'restill, but we acknowledge that
where we and so to me, that Ithink that's part of powerful
(31:02):
too is and also to say andlisten.
This is what we're going to do,these are the metrics we're
going to set to know that we'remaking progress, so that we're
not just being hot.
To know that we're makingprogress so that we're not just
being hot hot for no reason, butlike we're, for that sounds
strange, I know, when I said hotfor no reason, but you know,
(31:27):
that's a different podcast.
Hot for no reason is a differentpodcast.
That's a different episode,julia, we got to invite you back
for that one, but theintentionality to me, is really
powerful, because so manyorganizations are conflict
avoidant and it's like, oh,that's really touchy.
We can't talk about that.
I think, tiffany, your exampleis perfect.
Now, dei, deib and all theincarnations of it.
(31:48):
It's like you see companiesliterally exiting out and
putting press releases saying,well, we're never doing this,
we're not, we're not doing thatanymore.
You know, so right it got toohot.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
Yeah, yes, that's exactly what you don't want to
have, so there's a role.
It's worth mentioning that thebehaviors or the opportunities
for leadership are different atdifferent levels in the company
or community.
So it's a responsibility andit's a leadership behavior by
(32:24):
somebody in authority to setthose metrics and to create
holding environments wherepeople can do hard work and feel
safe enough to getuncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
Yeah, yeah, I can appreciate that Absolutely yeah.
Speaker 3 (32:45):
Well, Julia, towards the end of our podcast
conversations, we'd like to do alightning round.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
It's a little fun.
Speaker 3 (32:55):
It's a little fun If you, you know, go with us it
sounds fun.
We're going to be hot for noreason, for just a couple of
minutes, and we just like tohave fun by asking our guests a
couple of quick questions, andwe want you to share the first
thing that comes to your mind,can't?
Speaker 1 (33:13):
overthink it.
You can't overthink it, julia,you can't overthink it.
So let's go.
Speaker 3 (33:18):
Okay, First question we have re-rated the pod to be
called ungovernable women.
What does ungovernable mean toyou?
You know?
Speaker 2 (33:28):
it means?
What does it mean?
It means willing to stand theheat.
Speaker 3 (33:35):
Yes, that's good, I like it.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
I like it.
I like it.
So, Julia, what is a motto orphrase that best defines your
personality or your mindset?
Speaker 2 (33:52):
Yeah, when in doubt, do yoga.
Speaker 3 (33:57):
Are goats involved?
Speaker 2 (33:59):
No, I don't do goats, I don't do like paddleboard.
Speaker 3 (34:03):
Okay, okay, what, tiffany?
Speaker 1 (34:08):
Tiffany.
Speaker 3 (34:12):
I recently did goat yoga no goat.
It was an experience.
I will say oh you said goats,not ghosts.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
Oh yes, goats, goats, the animals, okay, Even the
goat yoga, ghost yoga or goatyoga are both interesting things
to me.
We told you it was going to getinteresting.
Speaker 3 (34:32):
Okay, we told you it was going to get interesting
what is the best purchase under150 bucks you've ever made?
Speaker 2 (34:41):
the ingredients for an amazing fish stew.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
Oh.
Speaker 3 (34:51):
I like it.
We might need the recipe.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
Okay.
So, Julia, this next onerequires a little vulnerability.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (35:02):
What is a secret?
Unpopular opinion that you holdSecret and unpopular.
Secret and unpopular.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
I don't think people should get married until they're
40.
Speaker 3 (35:22):
We're going to have this.
I wish someone had told me thatyou know what.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
That's pretty amazing .
I think turkey for Thanksgivingis trash, was bad, was like,
was pretty spicy, but I likethis one.
I love it.
Well, I'm kidding, we gottaexpand just for a minute.
Is there a particular reasonwhy you think that?
Speaker 2 (35:44):
oh, just it's based on my own experience.
I just get super nervous when Ihear 20-somethings getting
married, because I just knowwhat I got married when I was 24
.
Speaker 1 (36:01):
Okay, so you've got some experience with this life
experience informing this one.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
I mean this has slipped out of my mouth.
When young co-workers saythey're getting married, I just
have to You're like, don't do it, you have to sit on your hands.
Yeah, it's not appreciated.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
Well, you know what I like, that I think this is a
good one.
This is a good one, tiffany,take us in.
Speaker 3 (36:35):
All right, last one you are accepting a huge award.
What is your walk-on song?
Speaker 2 (36:43):
Come Dancing by the Kinks.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
Oh, love that.
Yes, we're going to put that onthe playlist too, the podcast
playlist.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
Love it.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
I love the Kings.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
Me too.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
Julia, is there any other parting thought you want
to leave with our listeners?
We have such a devoted group oflisteners who, as I mentioned,
who love this kind of careeradvice and insight.
Anything else you would want toshare with us?
Speaker 2 (37:16):
Yeah, you know, I'm going to share words that were
spoken at the funeral of myco-author, ed's Aunt Kathleen.
She was a Loretto nun who was asocial justice warrior and she
said we're not asking you toinform, we're asking that we
(37:45):
head in the same directiondifferently.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
That's so powerful.
That is so powerful.
Oh, what a beautiful way toclose this out.
Julia Favors McBride, thank youso much for the gift of your
wisdom and your time today.
We appreciate you.
I appreciate you both so much,thank you.
(38:13):
Thanks for listening toUngovernable Women.
Our producer and editor isMegan King.
Our social media manager isDestiny Eicher.
Be sure to rate, review andsubscribe to our show on Apple
Podcasts, spotify or whereveryou listen to your pods.
Your ratings help otherlisteners find us.
You can follow and DM us onInstagram at ungovernablexwomen,
(38:37):
and TikTok atungovernablexwomen.
See you next time, thank you.
Hi, I'm Portia Mount, creator and host of
Ungovernable Women, formerly theManifesta Podcast, the
lifestyle and career podcast foraspiring women.
Our new name reflects ourmission to reach even more
listeners with stories of womenwho are breaking boundaries and
redefining success.
I have a favor to ask you, ifyou haven't done so already,
please rate and subscribe to thepod.
(00:21):
Wherever you listen to yourpodcasts, it boosts our rankings
and helps more people discoverus.
Thanks for tuning in.
Welcome to Season 5 ofUngovernable Women, the career
and lifestyle podcast foraspiring women ready to break
barriers.
I'm Portia Mouw and I'mthrilled to be back with my
co-host, tiffany Waddell-Tate,ceo of Career Maven Consulting.
(00:43):
We've got a new name, but ourmission remains stronger than
ever helping women find theirpurpose, lead high-impact
careers and meaningful lives.
This season will bring you thestories of women who forged
their own paths to success.
It's our time to shine.
Let's dive in in.
(01:14):
I'll start with this passage,chapter five.
Plenty of people in importantpositions never exercise
leadership.
The world is full of bad andmediocre bosses, coaches,
presidents and CEOs.
Leadership position andleadership team are outdated
terms from a model that nolonger works.
The leadership as a positionmodel is collapsing.
(01:37):
The world is moving too fast.
The pace of change is toounforgiving.
Organizations that expectpeople at the top to do all the
leading won't thrive.
At best they'll survive.
And towards the end of thispassage, this chapter goes on to
say the traditional leadershipas authority model lets the rest
(02:01):
of us off the hook.
We tell ourselves that since wearen't in charge, we aren't
responsible for what's wrong.
We say it's the CEO's fault orthe governor's fault or the
pastor's fault.
We leave the creativity, riskand responsibility for change to
someone else, someone higher onthe org chart.
(02:28):
This passage is from whenEveryone Leads, the Toughest
Challenges Get Seen and Solved.
And I'm so pleased to have withus today.
This is co-authored by EdO'Malley and Julia Fabris
McBride, and we're fortunate tohave Julia here with us today.
She's the Chief Learning andDevelopment Officer at the
(02:49):
Kansas Leadership Center.
Julia, welcome.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Thank you so much, Portia.
Tiffany, it's great to be here.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
We are so delighted to have you here because so many
of our audience are people whowould think, hey, I just, you
know, I'm a middle manager.
I don't.
I'm not, I don't have the power, authority to lead, like what,
I don't have the, I'm not on the, I don't have the pay grade, I
don't have this equity, I don'thave the office, and so I'm
(03:20):
super excited to dive into thistopic.
So, just really quickly, theKansas Leadership Center is a
nonprofit organization whosemission is to transform civic
life in Kansas and beyond,because that's how we met you.
We met you in the beyond bycreating a culture where
everyday people exerciseleadership and engage others to
(03:41):
make progress on their toughestchallenges.
So I think we should just jumpright into it.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
And I'm so glad you started with that passage.
I love that passage, especiallythe part of it lets us off the
hook.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
Julia, you know it's awesome to hear the context and
the background of what and whereyou do your work, but can you
tell us a little bit more aboutyou and how you got interested
in the field of leadership tobegin with?
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Yeah, I started out as an actor.
I went to the Royal Academy ofDramatic Art.
Yeah, I love that Until I was40, I defined myself first as an
actor.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
Awesome.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
Yeah.
So I went to the Royal Academyof Dramatic Art.
I came back to Chicago and Iworked with theater companies
that ranged from one that had amission to provoke debate about
social and political issues,another one that was focused on
LGBT life and issues, anotherone that was a physical theater,
(04:57):
and for a while there I wasearning money doing training
films and doing theater at night.
That was more passion driventhan money driven and I loved it
.
It took me quite a long time tolet go of that as kind of my
(05:20):
definition of myself, but aftera while I realized that I didn't
love the training film stuff.
It wasn't why I went intotheater.
Why I went into theater wasstorytelling and helping people
(05:41):
to know one another, helpingpeople to connect.
So at a certain point I went towork in nonprofits and I had
learned to raise money in thetheater.
So I took a director ofdevelopment job at one
organization and then another,and then I was promoted to a
deputy director at Arts AllianceIllinois and it was there that
(06:04):
we started getting curious abouthow do you keep good people in
the field, in the non-profitarts?
And we did research and I'llnever forget an executive
director of Chicago ArtsOrganization saying to me it's a
(06:25):
job I love, but I wouldn't wishit on anybody else.
She was trying to do it all andshe didn't want any training
was coaching on how to be moreeffective at balancing their own
(06:46):
needs in life and this missionthat they love, and they wanted
more skills around being able toget others in the work.
So that's the way I got intocoaching and coaching.
So leadership coaching, andthen I talked my way into
(07:10):
teaching leadership at theUniversity of Chicago.
Basically, somebody had justgotten fired and I said I can do
that Right.
Nonprofit management course.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
The acting training came in handy right.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
And then my crazy husband wanted to.
He's a sculptor and he'sinspired by the prairie, so he
wanted to move to Kansas andlive on the prairie and make art
inspired by the prairie.
So I was just in that kind of amood and I said, yes, but we
(07:43):
must have a baby, and so movedto Kansas and we had a baby and
then the Kansas LeadershipCenter was formed and so here I
am, my baby's now about eightmonths old and I'm ready to go
out into the world.
And I've invited to thisgathering of people in Kansas
(08:04):
who teach, coach, facilitate andconsult around leadership.
And I'm in a room of 150 peopleand Marty Linsky from Harvard is
talking about leadership as anactivity to mobilize people to
make progress on tough, adaptivechallenges.
And everything fell into place.
(08:24):
This leadership is an activityand the idea that it's about our
toughest challenges.
So I you know, somewhere inthere I let go of Julia is an
actor and I really embraced theidea that my purpose is to help
people connect with their trueselves, each other, earth and
(08:49):
spirit.
And I was doing that in thetheater and I was doing that in
coaching and now I'm doing for15 years now here at Kansas
Leadership Center.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
That's so powerful, and as a former theater kid in
college, I appreciate how improvprinciples have brought you
exactly where you needed to be,so thank you tiffany's heart is
yes, I'm just like.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
Yes, that principle of say yes, be there for your
partner, give them a gift, allthat stuff, all of it.
You can't stay on the.
You're part of an improv troupeand you stay on the sidelines.
You're letting everybody downand you're not having any fun
(09:40):
absolutely.
Speaker 3 (09:41):
Uh, julia, can you help our listeners better
understand, now that you are thechief learning and development
officer at Kansas LeadershipCenter?
What does that mean?
What is your day-to-day andwhat does your span of impact
look like?
Speaker 2 (09:55):
You know what?
My son, who was born all thoseyears ago, is now a senior in
high school.
And the other day now a seniorin high school, and the other
day his girlfriend was asking meabout my job and I, you know, I
told her well, we're, we were.
I mean.
The beautiful thing is, and theend of that story is, she said
(10:17):
that sounds better than mostpeople's jobs.
And you know, it's I'm, I'malways we.
We serve about 7 000 people ayear and that's in companies and
communities and organizationsin kansas and then outside of
kansas we work with governmentagencies and I'm doing a webinar
(10:41):
with people in aust next week.
So we have a big reach.
But what those 7,000 peoplehave in common is they want to
make their community or theircompany better, they want to
contribute more effectively andthey want to grow.
(11:02):
And so I get to interact withthose people.
I get to be with a team that isalways trying to design the
next experience to help thosepeople learn and grow and
connect, grow and connect.
(11:31):
And I've walked into thisbuilding now for so many years.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
The vibe in this building, the spirit in this,
building is so good because it'speople who care and want to
make a difference.
I love that so much, julia, andwhat I especially love is you
started as an actor and you'rein this leadership role and I
think so many again I thinkabout so many of our listeners
are thinking like gosh, is therole I'm doing the thing I'm
going to have to do for the restof my natural life?
And what if I don't know?
What, if I can't foresee what Iwant to do?
(12:01):
And I love the natural.
It's the seemingly naturalevolution of, but you're still
using all those core skills thatyou learned as an actor, and so
it's a great.
It's a great sort of testimonyto all of those skills and
competencies you learn earlierin your career can take you into
(12:22):
other places that you I mean Ican't, I can't.
You probably didn't see thatyou were going to be chief
learning and development officerof a leadership center right,
like you probably that wasn't onyour bingo card, but and yet
here youare, and we had the privilege of
meeting you at a, at aconference here in the Southeast
, so it's like it's taking youeverywhere.
I want to kind of pivot alittle bit and ask you about
(12:44):
just the sort of the changingnature of the sort of how we
define leadership.
I'm thinking about companieslike Amazon are like we're
getting rid of middle managers,we don't you know, like
companies or organizations aregetting flatter, and yet people,
leaders, are being asked to doso much more, are being asked to
(13:10):
do so much more.
And so what does an evolveddefinition of leadership look
like, if there is even such athing?
But we'd love your thoughts onthat.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Yeah, I think what you just said about people are
being asked to do so much more.
First of all, an evolveddefinition of leadership is
taking responsibility for makingsure you're doing the most
important thing.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
Ooh, say that again.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
You're going to have a list that's way too long.
And wherever you are in acompany, or if you're a
volunteer, working on a citycouncil or in a school board
your job every day is to thinkabout what's the most important
(13:59):
thing, what's our most importantchallenge, and how can I engage
other people to see their partof this?
And whether it's affordablehousing in the United States,
that's a tough challenge.
(14:20):
Or your company needs to bemore innovative or more
collaborative, or your team isstuck on a project that's due in
a week and people are startingto get sleepy with each other.
What's the most important thingthat you can do to move that
(14:41):
forward?
And if you're in a position ofauthority and we make the
distinction between leadershipand authority how do you create
containers where people can seetheir moments and seize their
moments to exercise leadership?
Speaker 3 (15:02):
Oh, that's excellent, Julia.
I'm curious when you're kind ofdescribing this concept of a
person who might be in atraditional work context or
volunteer space and they see aproblem, are there prerequisites
that individuals need to stepinto that leadership role?
Like what?
(15:23):
Do you have to have to seizeyour moment?
Speaker 2 (15:28):
I think you have to know the distinction between a
technical problem and anadaptive challenge.
And a technical problem is it'sbasically clear, and it can be
solved or fixed by either theright expert or somebody in
(15:50):
authority directing that it getsdone.
And if it's one of those kindsof challenges, well, if you're
the expert, get the resourcesand do it.
If you need somebody else todirect it, let that person know
what's happening.
But if it's the other kind ofchallenge, an adaptive challenge
(16:14):
, those are the challenges wherethere's all kinds of different
perspectives and even valuesrelated to that challenge.
There are no clear solutions.
We need all the stakeholders,or enough of the right
(16:35):
stakeholders in what we call theproductive zone, and we need
people experimenting.
And I think you see thatchallenge and the first thing I
would recommend somebody do ishey, what do you think about
(16:58):
this situation?
Or do you think our team couldbe working together better?
Or have you noticed peoplearen't saying hi to each other,
you know, as regularly as theyused to, and that there seems to
be something going on here?
So you're starting to namesomething and you're starting to
(17:21):
gather data.
I love that.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
You're starting to gather data.
I love that.
I'm struck by as you define, asyou kind of unpack the
difference between the technicaland the adaptive challenge that
at least I can think of so manyorganizations I've worked for.
We've diagnosed everything as atechnical challenge.
Let's go and get experts, let'shire more consultants, let's
get a committee, let's get acommittee together to diagnose
(17:47):
the problem, have lots ofmeetings and then ultimately we
swirl and we don't do anythingabout it because it's like, oh
my God, it's so hard.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
That is rebranding, and they basically put out an
RFP for a consultant to helpthem make sure that rebranding
goes well.
And she invited us in to thisprocess because she understands
that it's everybody in thecompany has a piece of making
this shift successful.
And, yeah, there might need tobe some expertise brought in to
(18:43):
actually do what people withbranding expertise do, but
that's not enough.
There's going to be loss.
There's going to be things thatpeople held dear about the old
way we did it that have to benavigated, and that's the work
(19:06):
of leadership, it's the work ofeverybody.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Julia, we need to later on go for drinks.
So I can tell you all of myrebranding nightmares that
Tiffany already knows about,because I have led many, many
large-scale rebranding effortsand that is truer words have not
been spoken that the easy partis changing a logo.
The hard part is the hearts andminds and all of the change
(19:34):
management that goes on behindit.
So but we will not go through mytrauma here during your time
but I will just say that that isexactly right, and I am still
I'm still trying to recover fromsome of the rebrandings that I
have done.
I'm so sorry Because, but forexactly the reason that you said
right in all seriousness isthat it's, it's not it's, it's.
(19:56):
It's more than the the thing,the technical of changing a
brand.
It's all.
It's what it means and when it,how people are invested in it,
it's all the change managementand so, spot on.
I feel so much better.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Expertise is needed, but it's not enough.
Somebody in authority needs tomake a decision and allocate
resources, but that's not enough, but it's not enough.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
That's exactly right.
That's exactly right.
That's exactly right.
But you know I guess this is asI think about this example it
also strikes me that this is anopportunity for engagement,
right, like?
So.
We've been talking a lot, youknow, there's all kinds of data
out there about employeeengagement and about how
employee engagement is at anall-time low.
(20:45):
I read some statistic that youknow.
I think probably we all look atGallup studies that said
something to the effect thatonly 33% of US employees are
engaged, which is bonkers, andthen that 50% are not engaged
and 16% are actively unengaged.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
Right, which means they're like effectively coming
in to try to destroy and disruptRight.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
First of all, I was like what does actively
unengaged actually mean?
Right, and these are not thequiet quitters, I don't think.
But the serious question islike so, like you know, as you
hear those statistics, what doyou hear in terms of the
opportunity and the implicationsfor this idea that everyone can
(21:38):
lead, everyone should lead?
Speaker 2 (21:40):
Yeah, it's a huge opportunity and we have research
that shows.
When an organization saturatesitself with people who feel
empowered and equipped, yeah, toexercise leadership the way we
talk about it, then thoseemployees become more engaged,
(22:01):
they feel more fulfilled, theyview their organizations as more
trustworthy and open andequitable.
So, like, if I view myorganization as trustworthy,
open and equitable, that's Imean, that's meaningful, that
gives my life meaning.
If I feel like my skill askinga good question or making a
(22:29):
provocative interpretation ofwhat might be going on in a
situation, I feel like that'svalued.
I don't want to go to work.
Speaker 3 (22:41):
Julia in the book you talk about this concept of the
gap.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
Julia in the book you talk about, this.
Conceptlc's boldest aspirationis a culture in Kansas and
beyond where we can makeprogress on our toughest
challenges and thrive.
We're not there yet and in thegap you face things.
(23:27):
The gap is like it's deep anddark because it's full of
people's competing values, theirdisappointment that authority
and expertise aren't enough.
Their disappointment that quickfixes don't work and you have
(23:47):
to experiment and engage,curious and learn.
The idea that get from here tothere there's going to be loss.
And the idea that we're goingto have to negotiate values.
We can't take everything withus.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
That's good.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
The gap to me feels like the ch enough and bring
other people in to look at itand think about it and
brainstorm about it.
Practice leadership to speak toloss, to outline the competing
(24:54):
values and facilitate toughconversations about you know
what we stand to lose and whohas to give up what.
Then we make progress in thegap.
I mean.
Think about there was hundredsof years there was a gap between
women who wanted to be part ofthe democratic process in the
United States and you know, andweren't any aspiration to be
(25:23):
full voters president of theUnited States perhaps and people
had to struggle in that gap foryears, decades, centuries, and
we made it happen.
It was a big adaptive challengeand now it's tech for the most
part.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
One of the things I really love about the book.
You know there's so manyleadership books on the market
and one.
I love it because it'sbeautiful, it's like,
beautifully like, it's so, it'swell put together.
But you use a lot of metaphors,you use a lot of analogies.
(26:03):
There's a lot of.
I think it speaks to differentkind of cognitive styles, I
think, in terms of how it's puttogether, and so I was really
struck by one of your sort ofthe paradigm for tackling
challenges.
It's heat, right, and I'mcurious, like you know.
So let's say, you're a leaderwho recognizes, okay, curious,
(26:27):
like you know, so let's sayyou're a leader who recognizes,
okay, we've got, maybe, adaptiveand technical challenges that
are sort of at play.
I don't want to use the sameold, same old way of trying to
tackle a challenge, like let'sput a committee together, let's
have a lot of meetings and blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, which
never works.
We know that.
But it's what we, a lot of us,a lot of organizations, whether
you're, you know, a for-profitcompany or a nonprofit company
(26:49):
we default to that.
Can you talk about thisparadigm of and and how to, how
to use it?
What does it mean?
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Yeah.
So we talk about using the heatand and and.
Heat is in discomfort.
It's what happens when youstretch beyond your comfort zone
.
It's what happens when youelevate conflict.
So we want to, if we're workingon an adaptive challenge and
(27:24):
I'll use one from ALC's historywe for a long time would talk
about wanting a diverse staffand teaching team and nothing
changed.
We were making a mostly whiteteam for a long time and we,
(27:50):
after over time, we realizedwe're going to have to put more
heat on ourselves, we're goingto have to get more purposeful,
we're going to have to engageacross the organization and we
are going to have to make surewe're seeing progress.
So heat, the productive zone iswhen you have all that, when you
have a shared purpose, enoughof the right people engaged,
(28:14):
actively learning, and you'remaking progress.
So heat was.
I mean, one of the things wedid to elevate the heat was set
goals, and particularly setgoals about how many people of
(28:37):
color were going to be in ourrecruiting pool, you know.
So setting a metric is a way ofraising, doing training, to
help people see theirunconscious bias.
First of all, to name theelephant that there is,
(28:58):
unconscious bias.
That work here and make thatbias conscious so that we can
support each other to workthrough it.
And sometimes, especially insome of those conversations that
we're learning the heat goestoo high and people check out
(29:23):
and they actually becomedisengaged from the challenge.
So the work of leadership andit's not just one person's job
is to try to make sure thatthere's enough heat for long
enough that the challenge getssolved public landscape around
(29:49):
DEI Julia, so I just have toname that.
Speaker 3 (29:54):
I appreciate your comments, especially around bias
and naming.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
I don't even know if it's heat.
I think it's like inferno.
Is there an inferno stage?
Because I feel like it'sinferno.
Speaker 2 (30:05):
I mean there was a period there where we weren't
using the word equity becausethat shocked people out of the
room.
Yeah, when, where?
What we are, our tolerance gota little bigger over the years.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
Yeah, and we've made progress.
What I'm struck by, though, islike it's what I hear is an
intentionality to make oneuncomfortable and to be able to
sit with that discomfort for aperiod of time to make progress
(30:41):
toward whatever challenge we'retrying to overcome, and that
we're all acknowledging.
This is hard, this is making usscratchy, or whatever your
favorite word is, but we'restill, but we acknowledge that
where we and so to me, that Ithink that's part of powerful
(31:02):
too is and also to say andlisten.
This is what we're going to do,these are the metrics we're
going to set to know that we'remaking progress, so that we're
not just being hot.
To know that we're makingprogress so that we're not just
being hot hot for no reason, butlike we're, for that sounds
strange, I know, when I said hotfor no reason, but you know,
(31:27):
that's a different podcast.
Hot for no reason is a differentpodcast.
That's a different episode,julia, we got to invite you back
for that one, but theintentionality to me, is really
powerful, because so manyorganizations are conflict
avoidant and it's like, oh,that's really touchy.
We can't talk about that.
I think, tiffany, your exampleis perfect.
Now, dei, deib and all theincarnations of it.
(31:48):
It's like you see companiesliterally exiting out and
putting press releases saying,well, we're never doing this,
we're not, we're not doing thatanymore.
You know, so right it got toohot.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
Yeah, yes, that's exactly what you don't want to
have, so there's a role.
It's worth mentioning that thebehaviors or the opportunities
for leadership are different atdifferent levels in the company
or community.
So it's a responsibility andit's a leadership behavior by
(32:24):
somebody in authority to setthose metrics and to create
holding environments wherepeople can do hard work and feel
safe enough to getuncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
Yeah, yeah, I can appreciate that Absolutely yeah.
Speaker 3 (32:45):
Well, Julia, towards the end of our podcast
conversations, we'd like to do alightning round.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
It's a little fun.
Speaker 3 (32:55):
It's a little fun If you, you know, go with us it
sounds fun.
We're going to be hot for noreason, for just a couple of
minutes, and we just like tohave fun by asking our guests a
couple of quick questions, andwe want you to share the first
thing that comes to your mind,can't?
Speaker 1 (33:13):
overthink it.
You can't overthink it, julia,you can't overthink it.
So let's go.
Speaker 3 (33:18):
Okay, First question we have re-rated the pod to be
called ungovernable women.
What does ungovernable mean toyou?
You know?
Speaker 2 (33:28):
it means?
What does it mean?
It means willing to stand theheat.
Speaker 3 (33:35):
Yes, that's good, I like it.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
I like it.
I like it.
So, Julia, what is a motto orphrase that best defines your
personality or your mindset?
Speaker 2 (33:52):
Yeah, when in doubt, do yoga.
Speaker 3 (33:57):
Are goats involved?
Speaker 2 (33:59):
No, I don't do goats, I don't do like paddleboard.
Speaker 3 (34:03):
Okay, okay, what, tiffany?
Speaker 1 (34:08):
Tiffany.
Speaker 3 (34:12):
I recently did goat yoga no goat.
It was an experience.
I will say oh you said goats,not ghosts.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
Oh yes, goats, goats, the animals, okay, Even the
goat yoga, ghost yoga or goatyoga are both interesting things
to me.
We told you it was going to getinteresting.
Speaker 3 (34:32):
Okay, we told you it was going to get interesting
what is the best purchase under150 bucks you've ever made?
Speaker 2 (34:41):
the ingredients for an amazing fish stew.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
Oh.
Speaker 3 (34:51):
I like it.
We might need the recipe.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
Okay.
So, Julia, this next onerequires a little vulnerability.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (35:02):
What is a secret?
Unpopular opinion that you holdSecret and unpopular.
Secret and unpopular.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
I don't think people should get married until they're
40.
Speaker 3 (35:22):
We're going to have this.
I wish someone had told me thatyou know what.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
That's pretty amazing .
I think turkey for Thanksgivingis trash, was bad, was like,
was pretty spicy, but I likethis one.
I love it.
Well, I'm kidding, we gottaexpand just for a minute.
Is there a particular reasonwhy you think that?
Speaker 2 (35:44):
oh, just it's based on my own experience.
I just get super nervous when Ihear 20-somethings getting
married, because I just knowwhat I got married when I was 24
.
Speaker 1 (36:01):
Okay, so you've got some experience with this life
experience informing this one.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
I mean this has slipped out of my mouth.
When young co-workers saythey're getting married, I just
have to You're like, don't do it, you have to sit on your hands.
Yeah, it's not appreciated.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
Well, you know what I like, that I think this is a
good one.
This is a good one, tiffany,take us in.
Speaker 3 (36:35):
All right, last one you are accepting a huge award.
What is your walk-on song?
Speaker 2 (36:43):
Come Dancing by the Kinks.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
Oh, love that.
Yes, we're going to put that onthe playlist too, the podcast
playlist.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
Love it.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
I love the Kings.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
Me too.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
Julia, is there any other parting thought you want
to leave with our listeners?
We have such a devoted group oflisteners who, as I mentioned,
who love this kind of careeradvice and insight.
Anything else you would want toshare with us?
Speaker 2 (37:16):
Yeah, you know, I'm going to share words that were
spoken at the funeral of myco-author, ed's Aunt Kathleen.
She was a Loretto nun who was asocial justice warrior and she
said we're not asking you toinform, we're asking that we
(37:45):
head in the same directiondifferently.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
That's so powerful.
That is so powerful.
Oh, what a beautiful way toclose this out.
Julia Favors McBride, thank youso much for the gift of your
wisdom and your time today.
We appreciate you.
I appreciate you both so much,thank you.
(38:13):
Thanks for listening toUngovernable Women.
Our producer and editor isMegan King.
Our social media manager isDestiny Eicher.
Be sure to rate, review andsubscribe to our show on Apple
Podcasts, spotify or whereveryou listen to your pods.
Your ratings help otherlisteners find us.
You can follow and DM us onInstagram at ungovernablexwomen,
(38:37):
and TikTok atungovernablexwomen.
See you next time, thank you.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.