34. Ground Zero with Robert Cioffi

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Justin (00:14):
Welcome everybody to episode 34 of unhacked. Guys,
unhacked, like I say every week,it's a bit of a deliberate
misnomer because the truth ismost of these breaches, about
97% of this stuff, we couldprevent if we get ahead of it,
if we're doing all the things,if we're following the formulas
that we talk about. But onceyou've been hacked, you can
never truly get unhacked. Andso, that said, today's gonna be

(00:39):
a really interesting, veryspecial episode. I am really
excited to be here because wehave, we you know what?
I'm gonna save thatintroduction. Our our regulars,
we've got our, Mario and Brianwho are here every single week.
We've got Virender who's here,you know, when he feels like it.
And then, we've got a specialguest today, Robert. So, in in

(01:01):
order, Mario, Brian, Birender,tell us who you are, what you
do, and who you do it for.
Mario, take it away.

Mario (01:08):
Mario Zaki, CEO of Mastech IT. We are a managed
service provider in, New Jersey,located right outside of
Manhattan, and, we do everythingIT for clients in, in the tri
state area. I've been inbusiness for 20 years, and I

(01:28):
have a lot of happy raving fans.

Justin (01:31):
Alright. That's a good good to hear. Good to hear.
Brian.

Bryan (01:35):
Okay. Bryan Lachapelle with B4 Networks . With us.
Brian. Hello?
Can you hear me?

Justin (01:45):
Brian's brand studio is a little bit, he he went back in
time a little bit, I think. He'sbroadcasting from the eighties.

Bryan (01:52):
How's that?

Justin (01:55):
Nope. Yeah. Go ahead. We'll we'll we'll work with it.
We got nothing.
Alright. Oh. Brian, drive pastyour real office, and we're
gonna we're gonna continue.Birender, go ahead. Give us an
introduction.

Barinder (02:11):
Barender Hans with Red Rhino. We're based just outside
of Vancouver, BC here, and, weare a managed IT service
provider that focuses onenabling our clients to do their
best work. So anything typicalMSP, cybersecurity, as well as,
business transformation usingtechnology.

Justin (02:29):
Alright. And I I kinda skipped myself. I'm Justin
Shelley, CEO of Phoenix ITAdvisors. We do work in the
Dallas metro and then also outin the west, Northern Nevada,
Utah, Idaho. And we kinda leadwith compliance.
That's, we talk about thisformula week after week, and
that is how we handle ourclients as well. We we measure
against the industry standards.We create a plan for you, and

(02:50):
then, we just work, week afterweek, month after month, quarter
after quarter to implement thatplan. Alright. Now saving the
best for last.
We are here with Robert Cioffi.Did I do it right, Robert? I I
mean, I tried. You gave us theItalian lesson beforehand. I
think I still screwed it up.
But, Robert, tell us aboutyourself, a little bit about

(03:13):
you, a little bit about yourcompany.

Robert (03:15):
Yeah. Robert Cioffi. I'm the CTO and cofounder of an MSP
based in Yonkers, New York. Weare, name of the company is
Progressive Computing. We arejust north of Manhattan in
Westchester County, if you knowwhere that is.
We've been in business for 32years. Our story is probably

(03:37):
much like a third of the MSPlandscape. Right? Been been
doing this for decades, and,we've been through just about
every iteration and permutationof what an IT company looks
like, started in applicationdevelopment in the early
nineties, moved to networks,moved to, break fix, moved to
managed services, cloud,cybersecurity. It's the same

(04:01):
story that you've probably hearda 100 times that you probably
even experienced yourself.

Justin (04:05):
Alright. Alright. Brian, it looks like you're back. Let's
let's try that one more time.Tell us about yourself.

Bryan (04:12):
Yeah. Brian Lachfeld with B4 Networks based out of
Niagara, Ontario, Canada. Weprovide managed services and
computer support to businessesthroughout the

Justin (04:21):
area. Alright. Alright. Okay, guys. So in today's
episode, with introductionsbehind us, technical
difficulties hopefully behindus, We are gonna talk about
something that might potentiallymake all of us a little bit
uncomfortable.
What happens if your IT companygets breached? And more

(04:43):
specifically, in this case, whathappens if one of our vendors
gets breached? I mean, this thiscan go all the way up and down
what we call the supply chain.And the bottom line is this
stuff does happen. We try witheverything we've got to prevent
it, but what happens when, allof our efforts fail and the bad

(05:04):
guys do get in?
So, that is what we are going toaddress. We are all gonna be a
little bit, uncomfortable todaytalking about this, then but
we're going to wrap it up withthe formula that we always talk
about and the formula that wehave broken down in great detail
this October being cybersecurityawareness month. Alright. Guys,
let's go ahead and jump in, andwe are we're gonna start with a

(05:28):
little bit of background. Well,all of us are familiar with a
company called Kaseya.
A lot of us have used or do usesome of their products. And,
Brendar, why don't you, whydon't you tell us a little bit
in just layman's terms, who isKaseya, what do they do, and why
does it matter to IT companies?

Barinder (05:49):
Sure. Yeah. Kaseya is, I would say a juggernaut in the
managed IT service provider,space, But in IT in general,
through their own products aswell as acquisitions, they've
got a a large suite of productswhere they provide tools to IT
departments and managed serviceproviders to run the IT

(06:10):
ecosystem. So they have tools tomanage their tickets and
endpoints to allow techniciansto work. They have what's
called, and for purposes of ourconversation here, a remote
monitoring management tool.
It's a piece of software thatcontrols your computer. You
install it on every computer inyour IT ecosystem, managed
service providers to rely onthis, and it does a lot of very
good work. And then they alsohave IT documentation and a

(06:32):
whole bunch of other, productsin their suite of, in their
portfolio.

Justin (06:36):
Okay. And I mean, you said a key thing. Right? Like,
we put the software on ourclients' computers. And with
this software, we have the powerto do pretty much anything we
want or need to do to supportthem, to take care of them.
It's a very useful, verypowerful tool. In the right
hands, it does good things. Inthe wrong hands, well, we're
gonna dig into that. Okay. So,Mario, I'm gonna turn this to

(07:02):
you a little bit.
Let's just talk about what whatexactly is an MSP and maybe a
little bit about the evolutionof why we call ourselves MSPs
today versus when I started, Iwas a computer repair guy
running around with a toolbox, ascrewdriver, electric
screwdriver no less. I thoughtit was so cool to have that
thing back in the 19 sixties orwhenever I got started. Alright,

(07:22):
Mario. Tell us a little bitabout what MSP is.

Mario (07:25):
So, MSP stands for managed source provider. You
know, everybody has heard us usethat term, you know, a 1000000
times. So, essentially, ittransformed from being the IT
guy or, you know, the break fixguy to a company, that will
manage your entire IT ITinfrastructure, and it could be

(07:46):
everything from your IT to yourphone system to your website and
stuff like that. And,essentially, it's not what it
used to be where what like, whenI started was when somebody, you
know, is having a problem, theycall, and we would go with our
little handy dandy screwdriveror little, you know, floppy disk

(08:08):
or thumbnail. And, you know, alot of times, we would have to
say, okay.
Yeah. We have to wipe out thewhole thing and and fit you
know, and start over. Now, MSPsare responsible for, you know,
managing the entire networkfrom, you know, protecting it
with cybersecurity, you know,doing backups, doing, you know,

(08:29):
proactive maintenance, and, youknow, using tools like, you
know, like what Kaseya provides,like, when they're just that,
you know, that can automate alot of the stuff that, you know,
a person an IT person or a warmman shop would be going
traveling from, you know, officeto office, you know, cleaning up
temp files and, you know,running, like, this cleaner and

(08:52):
stuff like that. A lot of nowthe MSP is responsible for all
of this, including unlimitedsupport. And a lot of the times,
you know, support is included,unlimited, like, remote access
or phone support.
So, essentially, they're nowbenefiting by having the network

(09:13):
running smoothly versus calling.You know, when there's a
problem, you know, we fix it,and then, I'm sorry, Brian.

Justin (09:23):
I know. He just keeps flipping himself sideways,
upside down. He's like, Brian'sat the circus, but he's here
with us. So it's okay.

Barinder (09:30):
He he got hacked.

Bryan (09:31):
It wasn't intentional. I promise.

Mario (09:38):
So essentially, it it benefits them to have everything
smooth, protected because theyget paid no matter what every
month per computer versus in theold system only getting paid
when when there's a problem,they fix it, then they send you
a bell.

Justin (09:55):
Alright. Now I I have to because you you said floppy
disk, and you sent me down like,oh my god. You sent me back
decades. Pop quiz. Everybodyhere, I need an answer.
When you first started yourcareer in the world of IT, what
was the media of choice? Mario,you go first. What was it? What

(10:16):
were you using? Which kind,though?
Puppet. That that's too vague.Which one? Were they

Mario (10:20):
the

Justin (10:21):
5a quarter, 3a half. Were they 8 inch? Were you using
the 8 inch floppy disks?

Mario (10:25):
No. No. I wasn't using 8 inch. I I was 5a quarter.

Justin (10:29):
Okay. Okay. You're OG, Barinder?

Barinder (10:31):
When I started my IT career, I was 3a half. But my
very first computer was

Mario (10:36):
5 and

Barinder (10:36):
a quarter. I I I went to a friend, got him to copy a
game for me, and I used that toto to install on my computer,
and it was half an hour. It tookat least. At least. Yeah.
Brian, what were you using?

Justin (10:50):
Alright. When I started my career, I believe it was 3
and a half.

Bryan (10:54):
But when I was in college, it was definitely 5a
quarter. But before that, it wasa tape, a cassette tape that I
had to put into this, like, tapeplayer to load the program, and
that took

Justin (11:08):
Damn. Long I think it

Bryan (11:09):
was a Tandy or something. I can't remember. Long time ago.

Justin (11:13):
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So far, Brian's winning. Robert,
your turn.

Barinder (11:18):
Well, I'm

Robert (11:18):
a little mad at Brian because he kinda stole my
thunder. But, career wise, 5 anda quarter inch. But prior to
that, my first computer was aTexas Instruments 99 slash 4 a
with extended basic cartridge,and I used to save my programs
to a cassette recorder, that Ibought from RadioShack. So, if

(11:40):
that doesn't make you feel old,

Barinder (11:41):
I don't know what cards.

Robert (11:45):
Yeah. Yeah.

Justin (11:46):
No punch card. Really? We definitely missed the was it
called a Zip drive?

Barinder (11:50):
Mhmm. Drive.

Robert (11:51):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, those are later.

Barinder (11:53):
Those are They were they

Justin (11:54):
were later, but that was, like, the the cool stuff.
That was the cool stuff thatcame out. Windows 3.1 was on, 5
and a quarters or 3 and a halfs,and it was, like, 20 of them or
some Windows 95. I remember thatone was just, like, stacks of of
flunk disk.

Barinder (12:09):
Okay. Imagine how imagine how much data was
breached back in the day becausenone of those disk none of those
zip drives were encrypted. It'sjust like all this free floating
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Justin (12:19):
But it was hard to access because we were we were
running on the sneaker net backthen. Do you guys remember the
sneaker net before Ethernet?Yeah. Pull that 5 and a quarter
inch discount, run to yourneighbor, and, okay. Oh god.
The the evolution that we livein. Brian, if your, if your 19
eighties technology is keepingup with us, will you tell us a

(12:42):
little bit about what happenedon July 2, 2021?

Bryan (12:48):
Alright. So just taking a couple steps back before that
day, Kaseo's noticed or notifiedthat there was, some some bugs
in their code that allowed anintruder to get in, or to be
able to exploit it. I believethere was 7 or 8 different,
vulnerabilities that werereported to them by a
researcher. And, despite havingpatched, I think it was 4 out of

(13:12):
the 7 or 8, they didn't patchall of them, and, they got
breached by a zero day exploitor at least what it was claimed
as zero day exploit. I I feellike if they got heads up and
heads up notice, it wasn't quitea 0 day exploit.
But that's the extent of of whatI understand, that happened that
day.

Justin (13:31):
Okay. Let's talk about what a 0 do it oh, jeez. I can't
even talk. 0 day exploit is.What does that mean?
Well, exploit is. What does thatmean?

Bryan (13:40):
Well, typically, when, when and as vulnerability is is
found, it's usually announced,to let people know that it
exists. But before that,usually, their their the the the
company is told privately thatit exists, and then it's
announced to the general publicthat it exists, hopefully, after
the patch has been released tolet people know, like, hey. You
guys need to patch this now.Usually, 0 day means that the

(14:02):
day it's announced is the daythat that it's breached or and
or before that. Like, it's anunknown vulnerability that was
taken advantage of.

Justin (14:11):
Okay. Talk a little bit about supply chain attacks.

Bryan (14:20):
Okay. So and this applies. It's not just with
regards to our our vendors, butalso our customers' vendors as
well. A supply chain attacktypically comes from, one of
your vendors or, in our cases,our vendors. Our vendor gets
breached, and in turn, theycould potentially breach all of
our customers.

(14:41):
In the case of a client, and Iuse I use, like, some of our
clients as examples, they have alot of vendors that will remote
into their systems to, you know,fix their piece of machinery or
their piece of software, whereevery time you do that, you're
you're opening up the doors toyour entire network to their IT,
security. And so if they'rebreached, you have a possibility

(15:01):
being breached in turn becausethey can then utilize their
systems to get into your system.

Justin (15:07):
Okay.

Barinder (15:08):
22 2 recent just a recent example of a supply chain
attack attack that was in thenews, not related to software,
is, the walkie talkies and thepagers that were blowing up in
Lebanon. So that was

Justin (15:20):
Oh.

Barinder (15:20):
A a a a a a a somebody, got into that supply
chain and basically on demandwas able to cause them to
explode when they wanted to.Like, that's something that was
in the news, not necessarilyrelated to our technology here,
but just a visible Same concept.

Justin (15:35):
Yeah. Same concept. Easier to understand too. Very
good point. Yep.
Very good point. Yep. Yep. Ithink there's

Bryan (15:40):
a situation way back in the a couple couple years ago
too where, they were injectingor putting in some some chips
inside of some used or what wasclaimed to be used Cisco
equipment and put it up on eBayand or Amazon and that they they
also had backdoors into those.So, I guess that could
technically be a supply chainattack.

Barinder (15:59):
No. Absolutely. No. I remember that.

Justin (16:03):
Alright. So, guys, I don't know about you, but I have
literally had nightmares of my,my technology getting attacked,
getting breached, and and theramifications of that because,
like, I I said this before. Idid not get into IT because I
like cybercrime. I didn't do it.I didn't do this on purpose.

(16:23):
I'm not a criminal justicemajor, but here we are. We are
we are literally fighting crime,organized crime, serious crime,
with with little well, almost noregulation, very little required
training, and it is the reasonthat I insist on doing these
podcasts because it keeps mesharp. It keeps me aware. But

(16:46):
this, what we're talking abouttoday, is literally something
that I have nightmares about.And, Robert, you got kinda
forced into this where, I mean,honestly, I think that most of
us, if it happened to us, wouldkinda try to hide it from the
public.
But here you are as a willingand outspoken victim. So from,

(17:06):
like, genuinely from the bottomof my heart, thank you for being
on here. We we reached out.Thank

Barinder (17:12):
you, Robert.

Justin (17:12):
Yeah. Brian suggested it. I'm like, I don't know. Will
he really do it? And, then Ifind out that not only will you
come in here and talk to us, butyou're kind of on a traveling
circuit

Robert (17:21):
Right.

Justin (17:22):
And talking about it. So, this is the burning question
for me. What was the emotionalimpact? Because we talk a lot
about financial impact,technology impact. I've seen it
in person a little bit, but Ihad a client get breached way
back when.
This was when I became like, ohmy god. I'm not an IT or a

(17:42):
computer guy. I'm acybersecurity guy. And this was
a husband, wife team. Theyalmost got divorced over it.
They almost lost their businessover it. They fired me over it.
Like, none of this. Nothing goodcame out of this. So tell me
from your perspective, what wasthe emotional impact as as you
went through this?

Robert (17:59):
Well, that right there is the crux or the epicenter of
my story that, while this is avery highly technical story that
happened to a bunch oftechnology companies, including
our own

Justin (18:14):
Right.

Robert (18:15):
The story that I have to share is the human side of this,
the emotional, the psychologicalimpact. So thank you for
starting with that.

Bryan (18:24):
Mhmm.

Justin (18:24):
Before I

Robert (18:24):
go there, I just wanna focus on 2 words that you used.
One that's been used repeatedly,and I don't at the risk of
sounding, preachy or, orprofessorial here, or
persnickety. The word breach hasa legal connotation to it.

Justin (18:43):
So what happened

Robert (18:44):
to us was, an attack. There was an incident. There was
no breach, because breach, doesimply, some legal liability,
especially with, regulation andcompliance and notification and
things like that. Lawyers canexplain that way better than I
can. But that was one thing thatduring our attack, I learned

(19:06):
very, very quickly, don't don'tuse the b word, because that can
open up some, legal trouble foryou if you're ever

Justin (19:13):
I'm taking notes.

Robert (19:15):
Yeah. Yeah. And I know. Listen. You know, and I think
you said it also very well thatthis industry, you know, I joke
around that my mother who's init, you know, an immigrant from
Italy, didn't get past the 6thgrade because there was no 7th
grade in her small little townthat she grew up in, in the
mountains of Italy.
She could print a business cardand be an I you know, be an IT

(19:37):
consultant tomorrow. There's nobarriers to entry. Right? I am
way overdue for a haircut. Thegirl who cuts my hair needs a
license in New York State to cutmy hair.
But none of us need a license orany kind of certification to do
it do what we do.

Justin (19:50):
So crazy.

Robert (19:51):
The world is a little upside down for us, but that
sounds like a whole anotherepisode. So, so I'm gonna leave
that there. But I wanna focus ona really important word, getting
closer to your question aboutthe human, or emotional impact
that it had upon me, and that isthe word victim. I wanna pause

(20:12):
there for a second for yourlisteners to really let that
word sink in, and then I wannaexplain why I do what I do
because one of the firstemotions that I felt was severe
shame. I mean, I was besidemyself.
How can I, the expert, theperson who is given the

(20:35):
stewardship of protecting all ofthese companies, how could I
somehow and maybe this isCatholic guilt speaking and not
reality? How could I allow sucha travesty, an injustice, a
crime to take place upon mywatch? And, what I needed to do

(20:55):
was to come to terms veryquickly with the fact that I was
a victim, and everybody else whowas, involved or touched by this
crime was a victim of that,particular, criminal act. So one
of the mantras that I userepeatedly is that there is no

(21:16):
shame in victimhood. And I wannarepeat that.
There is no shame in victimhood.So if anyone should ever undergo
any sort of traumaticexperience, be it a personal,
issue or be it a business eventlike what we went through, you
need to kind of suppress thosefeelings of shame because you

(21:37):
are a victim and, victims, needhelp, and it's okay to say that.
Right? I had to come to termswith me speaking vocally about
this very quickly, to understandthat that my victimhood did not
make me less of a human, did notmake me less of a professional,

(21:59):
and did not diminish thecapabilities and the integrity
of my company. But everybodyelse in the world wants to put
their head in the sand or tostay quiet, right, and muzzle
people.
Let's not talk about this. And,honestly, that was one of the
first thoughts that went throughmy head was I don't like, let's
just shut up, fix this, and,like, hope to god that this

(22:23):
doesn't make the 6 o'clock news.

Barinder (22:25):
Right.

Robert (22:27):
But, so there I was on July 2, 2021, and there's a lot
of details. We could spend hourstalking about what happened, and
how I found out, but it was itwas brought to my attention that
our phones were ringing off thehook. Everybody's phone was
blowing up. Email blowing up.Text messaging.

(22:48):
We came to realize very suddenlythat all of our customers were
completely ransomware because acybercrime, element had broken
into our Kaseya VSA server andused that, tool in which we use
to manage all of our costcustomers, use that tool to

(23:09):
carry out a malicious deed,right, to install that
ransomware on everybody'scomputers, by the way, including
our own, including the very I'mspeaking to you from right now.
Right? That computer, I stillhave today. Right? It was
reformatted and rebuilt and blahblah blah.
But, you know, that's whathappened to me, on July 2, 2021.

(23:31):
I watched, proverbially youknow, and I hate you know, I say
this all the time too. You know,people a lot of people suffer
from the Hollywood syndrome.Right? You watch too much TV and
movies and, you know, the moviesand television aren't an
accurate description of reality.
But there are some things that Ican draw upon Hollywood for. One
of them is this notion of, youknow, your life flashing before

(23:53):
your eyes. Right?

Justin (23:54):
Yeah.

Robert (23:55):
That's what happened to me. I thought about my entire
career, 28 years being runningthis company, thinking about all
the relationships that I built,the the the the security that I
built for my family, and, youknow, my business partner, all
of our employees, the trust thatwe had in so many people that we

(24:17):
had built with over thosedecades, I watched it all
evaporate. Right? Right.

Justin (24:21):
Yeah.

Robert (24:22):
And for about 10 minutes, I was completely
frozen, staring into the abyss,contemplating my own mortality.

Justin (24:29):
Mhmm. Right?

Robert (24:30):
And even when I talk about this, the emotions are
always, there. They'reomnipresent. Right? They won't
ever go away, but it helps me.It's a bit little bit cathartic
to talk about it because if Ican change somebody's perception
about what they need to be doingin their business, now whether
that's a business owner who'snontechnical or a technical

(24:52):
person who's in charge ofmanaging technology.
Either way, if I can movepeople, toward doing something
better for themselves, then I'mtaking that really horrible
experience that we went throughand turning something positive
out of it.

Mario (25:10):
So what what happened next? Like, you you you know,
this you you I guess, your yourteam was the one that notified
you Yeah. About it.

Robert (25:19):
Yeah.

Mario (25:19):
And what did you what happened? Like, did you gather
them all together? Did you havea game plan?

Robert (25:24):
Yeah. I mean, we spent, my operations director and I,
spent about, 10 or 15 minutes,in this room that I'm sitting
that I'm speaking to you fromright now. This is my desk in my
office, and he was, you know,right at my, shoulder here, off
my left shoulder. We weredigging into systems trying to
figure out which way was up,what the hell happened. After we

(25:46):
realized that we were, I mean,screwed is really the only way I
could explain, the feeling, justthis utter and complete
annihilation of our business.
I knew that we had to dosomething, but I didn't know
what. So what I did is I, I Ithought about some historical

(26:10):
figures. I'm a pretty bighistory buff. I thought about
Winston Churchill, who said whenyou're going through hell, keep
going. Right?
He said a lot of things about,his leadership in England
during, the war against theNazis, and that was one of the
lines that he used, as manymany, inspirational quotes from

(26:31):
him. But then I challengedanother world, or I channeled
another World War 2 figure, andthat was general Patton. Right?
I turned into general Patton andjust started barking orders at
people because it was the onlyway I could contain my emotions
is to just become stoic. And,you know, with this rock hard
exterior, like, just allbusiness and, and I

Justin (26:54):
Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is what your team needs
in that moment. You don't get tomeltdown.

Robert (26:59):
No. That's correct. I was melting down on the inside,
Justin. I was

Justin (27:03):
But you can't.

Robert (27:04):
I was a puddle of emotion, and, you know, fearing
for, the the, financial wellwell-being of myself, my
business, my partner, ouremployees, as well as our
families. Right? But here I hadto be sort of tough. And so, you
know, I started barking ordersat people. You go downstairs,

(27:26):
get everybody at help desk, gettheir asses upstairs.
I mean, these are words that Iwas using.

Justin (27:30):
Mhmm.

Robert (27:31):
You, tell everybody to get the hell off the phones
right now. Put them down, getthem in the conference room. I
quickly realized I was being alittle too So I remember going
up to one individual who was onthe phone with a client, and I
said I tapped him on theshoulder, and I said, when you
get a chance and theconversation, you come into the

(27:51):
conference room. Right? Istarted to tone it down a little
bit.
But, you know, I would be a liarif I said I had a prepared
speech. I had been down thisroad before, I was experienced
in these sorts of matters, I wastrained in crisis management, or
had bullets flying over my headin multiple theaters of, of

(28:13):
operation and in various warlike, none of that existed.
Right? Here I was just like,holy shit. I need to figure out
what the hell I'm gonna do andwhat the hell I'm gonna say.
And my mind was a blank, otherthan, you know, general Patton
sort of taking over here. But wesat in the conference room.
Slowly, people started to walkin and, I don't know. Something

(28:35):
just clicked. Something snappedin my head.
And I remember sitting therelooking at my business partner,
and I remembered the foundationof you know, some of the
foundational pieces of ourculture and our company. We're
an EOS shop here if anybodyknows what entrepreneurial
operating system is. Yep. So theconcepts of core values aren't

(28:55):
really that foreign to anybodyeven though if you if you don't
know EOS. But I just recited ourcore values.
Alright? And I read through all4 of them 1 by 1, and drew upon
them for both comfort andinspiration to let everybody
know that we're in a serioussituation here. But together,
you know, we were gonna getthrough this. Gave them some

(29:20):
things to say and do to clients.And then, I mean, I'm giving you
a very short version of the theof the moments that, I spent in
the conference room there.
But, essentially, just, youknow, got them back to their
desks so they can starthandling, the influx of calls
and and just managing thequestions of what the hell just

(29:40):
happened here.

Justin (29:42):
I love that you went to core values. I absolutely love
that. I mean, like, companieshave core values, but this is
how you know that you actuallylive them.

Robert (29:49):
Yeah. Love

Justin (29:50):
that. So, Brendon, I

Robert (29:51):
hope they were very, applicable to us. Yeah. They
were they were not immediately,understood how applicable they
were. But, I mean, some of themreally stood out. I mean, one of
our core values is team.
Together, we get it done. Andso, you know, what a huge
rallying cry that was.

Justin (30:09):
Yeah.

Robert (30:10):
Commitment, determined to do what it takes. Like, hey.
Like, we're not talking aboutfixing a printer commitment.
We're talking about, like, turnthe world upside down
commitment.

Justin (30:21):
Grab a

Robert (30:22):
shovel and start going. Right? Another one was, humble
confidence. Right? Servicewithout ego.
So we have to lot have have alot of confidence in that
moment, but we also had to havea lot of humility because people
were pissed. Right? There werepeople who are super upset by
this, and we needed to, youknow, handle that with kid
gloves. And then finally,respect is our 4th core value,

(30:44):
respect always, and rememberingthat we just have to have a lot
of respect for each other, ourcustomers, our end users, our
families, our vendors, anybodywho would come to help us.
Respect was something to help uskeep grounded throughout that
entire event.
So we used them in every waythat we could and reminded each

(31:06):
other of them throughout thenext, specifically 17 calendar
days to get us through most ofthe recovery.

Barinder (31:15):
Robert, that sounds like an absolute nightmare of a
day that, like Justin was sayingearlier, keeps us all up at
night in the MSP industry.

Robert (31:22):
They truly

Barinder (31:23):
Yeah. Like, how how how law yeah. And rightfully so.
If it doesn't keep you up atnight, then you should get out
of the MSP industry. Right.
But but so how long was itbefore you But but so how long
was it before you figured out itwas VSA was a source of the
breach? Did it matter?

Robert (31:37):
Yeah.

Barinder (31:37):
Like, what was the rest of your day like? Who did
you need to call or what yourlike, your clients are probably
still calling you directly atthis point. Like, who are you
talking to? So

Robert (31:44):
there was a lot of confusion with communications.
They were happeningbidirectionally, across multiple
mediums. Right? Like I said,there was tickets coming in,
emails, phone calls, textmessages, like, you know,
landline calls, cell cell linecalls, like, everything. I think
somebody even reached out to meon social media, right, just to
say, what the hell is goinggoing on here?

(32:07):
You know, our instincts tookover pretty quickly. As soon as
I heard, because my operationsdirector was the one who
approached me first to tell methat all of our customers were
ransomware. And, of course,that's just a completely
ridiculous statement. So Irejected his, you know, untruths

(32:28):
to me and inserted my ownreality that that's an
impossibility. How could thathappen?
Right? There's no way that thatcould happen. And, after he
started to rattle off customernames 1 by 1 and he and I still
have a little debate over thisas to whether or not, he
intentionally picked the largestones to talk about first. After

(32:48):
he got to about number 15, I waslike, okay. Stop.
Now you have me convinced, yes,all of our customers are
ransomware. I instinctually knewthat it was Kaseya VSA. Mhmm.
What else could it have been?

Barinder (32:58):
It can't be anything else.

Justin (32:59):
Yeah. There's no

Robert (33:00):
more nothing else that it could have been. And, like I
said, we came into my office,and I had 2 of my top engineers
who are already inside VSAinvestigating, looking what was
going on. It was our firsthunch, and it was the right
hunch, that that's where theattack took place. My one of my

(33:22):
engineers saw the script,running, but it had already been
processed on almost every singlecomputer that we managed. So he
caught it right at the very tailend, and it was like, I can't
even stop this.
It's the damage is done. So, sothat's kinda how we knew. It was

(33:43):
pretty obvious that it had tohave been that, and looking for
the evidence or at least the thesurface level evidence wasn't
all that very difficult, touncover.

Barinder (33:56):
So, like, what was your first call? Is it to a
lawyer? Are you talking toclients?

Robert (34:01):
Yeah. What was our first call? So while I may sound, put
together and, coherent rightnow, that day was anything but
put together or coherent. Therewas a lot of chaos. And I made a
number of I mean, after theconference room, conversation

(34:22):
and dismissed everybody, I wasjust I was calling everybody
that I knew.
I I was my first instinct, whichwas wrong, by the way, and I'm
very public about, tellingpeople about the things that I
did wrong. I started to call myfriends that I knew that had
security experience. I startedto reach out to other names that

(34:44):
I knew of that I knew that weresecurity experts that somehow,
magically, they were gonna,like, wave a magic wand and make
land somewhere go away. It was Idon't wanna say it was stupid
thinking, but it was, maybe alittle too wishful. Mhmm.
And it took a number of phonecalls before, my director of

(35:05):
finance, who does not have atechnical bone in her body, she
came knocking on at my doorsaying, you know, hey, Robert.
Do you think we should call ourcyber liability insurance?

Justin (35:17):
And

Robert (35:17):
if you really wanna laugh, that policy went into
effect on Monday, June 28, 2021,4 days before the attack.

Justin (35:24):
Oh, shit.

Robert (35:28):
And I'm like I looked at her, and I'm like, thank you for
your brilliance.

Mario (35:32):
And after all

Robert (35:34):
this is done, you could take me out into the parking lot
and flog me for not thinkingabout this faster. But, yeah, as
soon as you activate your assoon as you, enter the claim,
you get assigned. And now here'sthis word, breach. You get
assigned breach counsel, whichis a terror I've yelled at every
single lawyer that callsthemselves a breach counsel.

(35:55):
It's a it's a terrible title,and they all admit to it.
But that's what they're knownas, breach counsel lawyers who
are experienced in handlingcyber events. And then from
there, depending upon yourpolicy, you could be assigned
crisis management, forensics,even a negotiator. We had
negotiator capabilities. Infact, a negotiator had gone as

(36:18):
far as to, follow the ransominstructions to see what the
next steps were, which I couldhave, you know, done just by
looking at the ransom notemyself. But he actually went to
the, dark website and, you know,looked at the the page for
instructions and whatnot.

(36:38):
That was something that we didnot pursue. But the best
resource that I would adviseanybody who's going through
something like this is to makesure that they have counsel. You
really I mean, I hate hidingbehind lawyers. And it was not
hiding behind lawyers, but wasgetting a lawyer to sit shoulder
to shoulder with you to makesure that you're navigating a

(36:59):
situation like this verycarefully. There were things
that we could have done wronghad we not had that assigned
counsel.

Mario (37:09):
And then what happened after that? Did you, like, did
you start trying to recover? Didyou try to figure out if Kaseya
was, you know, had a fix for it?

Justin (37:20):
Or or Yeah.

Robert (37:20):
Or Yeah. I was really I mean, I think, I was in a little
bit of denial and sort of inthat wishful thinking state for
about 24 hours, maybe less. Youknow, it was probably far less
than that. It was probablysometime that evening where I
just realized there is no undohere. Right?
For all you techies out there,control z on your keyboard.

(37:43):
Right? There's no there's nocontrol z to undo the mistake
that you just made in Word orExcel. There was no way to kinda
reverse this to install a pieceof software that, like, you
know, cleaning up a virus. Itthat your systems are encrypted.
Without that decryption key, youare way up the the stream

(38:03):
without a paddle.

Justin (38:05):
I will. I wanna I wanna interject a little bit because
there is a particular I won'tname names, but there is a
particular, called an antiviruscompany. You know, we we all
know them as something moretechnical than that. But who who
has that claim that they do havea rewind button in the case of
ransomware attacks, and I don'tremember which episode we were

(38:25):
talking

Robert (38:27):
about this. They may have a rewind button, but they
don't have the ability todecrypt.

Justin (38:32):
Well, what they do though is there is about 12
pages of fine print that saywhat has to be in place for it
to work. And, basically, it'simpossible. It's not gonna
happen. So there's a lot offalse sense of security Yeah.
In, you know, thinking thatwe've done x y z, and we're now
protected.
The reality is, like I said,once you get hit, god, coming
back to me is tough.

Robert (38:52):
Read read the fine print. If that were the case,
then I'm sure every one of ourclients and every IT department
in the world would have thattechnology in place.

Justin (39:00):
Right. Right.

Robert (39:01):
Now there are certainly things that you can do to,
ensure that, after boom goesoff. Right? Right of boom, like
I say. For all of you militarypeople out there. After a right
of boom, you have to be able torespond and recover, properly.
And sometimes technology canhelp with that, and sometimes

(39:23):
it's just good old, human plansand human decisions and actions.
But

Justin (39:30):
about law enforcement? Do you have to get law
enforcement involved?

Robert (39:33):
Yeah. So the I wanna make sure that I got, Mario, you
asked the question about, right,about, like, you know, what
sorta happened next, but it'sokay. I'm gonna kinda try to
loop all this together. Well,one of the things that I did,
early was to file an IC threereport at the FBI's website.
Right?
Fbi.gov, Internet CrimeComplaint Center is the I c

(39:55):
three. And then within, like, anhour and a half, I had an FBI
agent in my ear asking mequestions because it became
very, quickly known, and widelyknown in the community, and in
the law enforcement arena that,you know, this was a widespread
international attack. Thiswasn't just progressive

(40:17):
computing being singled out. Ifthat were the case, then we
probably wouldn't be having thisconversation. You probably would
not know me.
Well, maybe. I don't know. Ican't I can't say

Justin (40:29):
that, but

Robert (40:30):
but it certainly would be be a different story. But in
terms of recovery, no. One ofthe things that our, our
attorneys had advised us is toget a proper forensic analysis
first. So, and and I'm notplugging here. Believe me, when
I name a name, it's simplybecause out of the I feel that

(40:51):
they did the right thing by me.
We were in the process of,testing Huntress on about a 100
different, systems here, whichis a small segment of our, you
know, population of of users ormachines under management. And,
you know, they found out aboutwhat happened super fast. I'm

(41:12):
gonna make a long story shortand just say I'm on the phone
with a lot of their peoplethere, including their CEO, Kyle
Hanslovan. And they essentiallyoffered to take our Kaseya log
files and do the analysis.Right?
Now granted, they got some goodpublicity out of the work that
they did, but it was veryhelpful to us to understand the

(41:33):
nature of the attack. Right? So,Mario, if you were ever to, you
know, be in a situation likethat, like many of people like
you and I who are, you know,smart, experienced, people in
this industry, your gut reactionis recover and recover now. But
it's the wrong thing to do,especially when you have clients

(41:54):
that are breathing down yourneck, right, and yelling at you
and and threatening you withlawsuits or bodily harm. Nobody
threatened me that way.
But certainly lawsuits, it feltlike they were threatening me,
but nobody actually did that,because they know better. But it
and seriously, I I like to jokeabout this because it's such a

(42:14):
serious topic that the humorhelps me get through some of the
rough parts. But, to the point,and that is that you've gotta
make sure that you understandthe nature of the attack before
you can do a recovery plan.Because what if because the
first thoughts that went throughmy head, how long were these
guys in our system? Mhmm.

(42:36):
Were they there an hour, a day,a month, a year? Did they
exfiltrate or copy data out? Didthey put in a 100 backdoors?
What like, what did they do?What do they know?
What do they know? What do theyhave? These were all giant fuzzy
questions that I had no answersto. So it wasn't until Huntress

(42:57):
completed the forensic analysison Saturday afternoon, Saturday,
July 3rd, and, Kaseya did anindependent review of our same
log files and turned around ananswer to us on the afternoon of
Sunday, July 4th, that is whenwe knew 2 independent analysis

(43:19):
confirmed, particularly for usat 10:49 AM, a threat actor,
using a commandeered AWS webserver had launched their attack
against us specifically. Nowthat data that I just provided
you and that timeline wasdifferent for every single
customer that was attacked.

(43:40):
And when I mean customer, I meana Kaseya customer, me being a
Kaseya customer. But at 10:49AM, the attack started upon us,
and the 80 clients that itaffected for us, which was a
100% of our clients, that hadKaseya VSA installed, were all
ransomware between 10:49 AM ofon July 2, 2021, and the

(44:04):
encryption process endedsomewhere between 12 and 12:30
PM, depending upon what speed ofprocessors, how much memory, how
fast disks are. If you reallythink about it, all of us guys
who converted everybody to SSDdrives, right, like, they're
super fast. Right? They're greatperformance, especially in
laptops.

(44:25):
Well, guess what they do? TheyThey

Justin (44:26):
help the bad guy.

Robert (44:28):
Very, very efficiently. Right? Bad guys use good
technology

Justin (44:31):
into their Mhmm.

Robert (44:33):
So it wasn't until Sunday afternoon that in
consulting with our attorneysthat we had a recovery, a
plausible recovery plan inplace. We knew that we could
start restoring servers sometimeanytime before 10:49 AM. In our
particular case, we made adecision to go back to 8 AM even

(44:56):
though we had some 9 and 10 AMsnapshots because our systems
back up hourly. We decided to goback to 8 just because we were
too paranoid. Right?

Barinder (45:08):
Mhmm. Mhmm.

Robert (45:10):
So I hope that kinda answered your question. We
didn't really start our fullrecovery efforts until Monday,
July 5th, which was IndependenceDay Observed. We We took on 3
clients that day because we didnot have a battle tested and

(45:30):
battle hardened recovery plan.And we needed to kinda figure
things out. So we decided thatday we're just gonna attack 3.
Or I should say go take care of3, not attack. We're not
attacking our own customers.And, and then started to ramp
that up on Tuesday, Wednesday,Thursday. Right? And that's also
where the story takes aninteresting turn about how we,

(45:53):
were able, to, to get to so manycustomers.
And I know 17 calendar daysdoesn't seem like a short amount
of time, but that's, like, superfast.

Justin (46:04):
Yeah.

Bryan (46:04):
Well, for the scale of

Justin (46:05):
an attack, it is. I I mentioned this the only story I
have with this was a client of,I think, 10, 11 computers
counting the server, and it tookus almost 3 weeks. Yeah. And we
did a longer story, but yeah.

Robert (46:19):
Yep. We did 250 servers and about 22100 endpoints in 17
calendar days.

Barinder (46:25):
Jesus. Robert, I understand that community came
to your aid. Like, obviously,like, you know, Huntress was
helpful here. Anybody else thatthat was able to help in this
scenario?

Robert (46:37):
Yeah. I mean, you know, it's it's worthy to note that
our, disaster recovery, partner,Acxiom, was a massive help to
us, providing us both technicalresources and, like, direct line
instant response, like phonecall like, skip the, skip the
help desk queue kind of thing.ConnectWise was super, super

(46:57):
helpful to us. Pax8 stepped up abit as well, Huntress. But then
there was the, IT Nation evolvedcommunity.
We've been a a member of a peergroup, which some of you may
know as HTG since 2010. It wasthen bought by ConnectWise,
rebranded as IT Nation insomewhere around the 2019, 2020

(47:19):
time frame. And all of ourfriends that we had made over
that decade plus started gettingwind of what happened. So we had
other MSP owners, flying as faraway from Santa Barbara,
California, Austin, Texas,Minneapolis, the middle of
Kansas, Massachusetts, Florida.People came in from everywhere,

(47:44):
not just, business leaders, butalso bringing some of their best
technicians along with them.
Wow. We have a math problemhere. Right? How do we, as an
MSP, who if you really thinkabout, we're sorta like a, you
know, like a time share. Noteverybody can show up for
service on the same exact day.
Not everybody could show up tothe whole, you know, to the time

(48:06):
share unit and vacation on thesame exact day. Right? And so we
can't service all of ourcustomers simultaneously. No MSP
can. And if you think thatthat's if you're gonna argue
with me on that one, we'll havea big There's no way that you
can it's not we're not designedthat way.

Justin (48:25):
Mhmm.

Robert (48:26):
Even an IT department for any size company, enterprise
or all the way down to a smallercompany, your IT staff can't
handle every single user needingservice now. It just doesn't
work that way. Right?

Justin (48:42):
Right.

Robert (48:43):
So we had to figure out, and it was pretty easy to figure
out. We just needed as manybodies who are willing to help
us as possible. All in all, wehad about 27 different companies
help us either locally by comingin or helping with some of our
remote locations across the US,or just or just helping by

(49:05):
doing, remote work from whereverthey sat.

Barinder (49:10):
Wow. That I I love this community. What what a
great story.

Justin (49:14):
Yeah. Yeah.

Robert (49:15):
And listen. And I don't I don't have a lot of experience
outside of the MSP community asa as a business owner or an
operator. But, you know, I'mglad that you said that,
Birender, because I don't knowif other industries are as
fortunate as we are. Thecamaraderie and the fraternal
type of nature that we have. Itell the story sometimes.

(49:38):
I'm at a swim meet, watching mydaughter swim, because she's on
a competitive team. Actually,both of them were. And I was
sitting in the lobby of, like,this y, it was a YMCA in
Greenwich, Connecticut. And Iwas catching up on some work,
and I was drawing someflowcharts out. And the guy some
guy sitting next to me looksover my shoulder and he goes,

(50:01):
are you in the IT business?
Right? Turns out, I'll say mycompetitor, a comp an MSP in New
York City. Like, you know,instead of it like, it was it
turned into such, like, afriendly conversation. Like, you
run into each other in thestrangest places or at
conferences, and we're verygiving of each you know, to each

(50:21):
other. We're very there isn't alot of, you know look.
Mario and I are kinda neighborsin a way. Right? Yeah. We'll
never cross paths or even if wedo, we'll be like, okay. So,
like, there's so much businessaround.
We'll help each other. I know wewould. We we we're just seeing
each other now.

Barinder (50:38):
Absolutely.

Justin (50:39):
Yeah. Yeah. So

Bryan (50:43):
I have a question. After all of that happened, I I mean,
I know that, you know, ifsomething like that happened to
me, I would probably be lookingat another provider. Did you
lose a lot of business as aresult of this?

Robert (50:54):
So very strange phenomenon happened. I got sued.
I got personally, and verballyabused and attacked, and we had
gift baskets sent to us. So

Justin (51:09):
God.

Robert (51:09):
I had one customer tell us about 8 months after the
attack, he said I was sitting intheir conference room leading
them through a strategicbusiness review, you know, an
annual assessment and reviewwith them. And they said, you
know, we thought about firingyou, but then we decided, that
that would not be a good ideafor two reasons. Because number

(51:30):
1, the way you guys respondedand handled yourselves, with
such grace under such enormouspressure. And 2, who would we
rather have on our side as ourMSP other than an MSP who's
lived through that, that haswalked through hell? Right?
Now I'm not trying to take awayanything from any other MSP.

(51:50):
That's not the point. Butbecause I got so beat up, at
least I get the claim that I'velived through it. And it should
something like that ever happenagain in any form that I've got
the experience, we have thatexperience. We know what it's
gonna be like.
So we did take a pretty bighaircut over time. There were

(52:10):
just some people who were benton blaming us. We had one
customer say, we don't wannafire you, but we have to because
our largest customer, doesn'tlike what happened, so they're
forcing us to fire you. Theythey basically told them fire
your MSP, or we're not doingbusiness with you anymore, which

(52:31):
is a little bit of horse crap.But Mhmm.
But that's, you know, that'slife and that's business. Right?
You gotta just, you know, holdyour head up high and just keep
moving along.

Justin (52:44):
Crazy, man. So law enforcement. I, I mean, I I I'm
intrigued because, like I said,this isn't my world. At least it
wasn't supposed to be. But youdid have to get law enforcement
involved.
But here's the problem. Most ofthese guys hide behind, well,

(53:05):
they hide. Right? In othercountries, they hide behind
cryptocurrency. They hide.
We can't usually get them.There's not much Right. What
what was law enforcement able todo other than tell you, hey.
Sorry, Robert. You're fucked.
You know?

Robert (53:18):
Yeah. Well, that's they said it in a much nicer way.

Barinder (53:21):
Actually, they don't even think

Justin (53:22):
that for at least that.

Robert (53:26):
I didn't really expect a lot out of them because I were,
well informed the way thisworks. Right? Like, I'm thinking
to myself, why am I even fillingout this FBI Right. Point other
than just to report myself forwhat I just instinctually felt I
needed to do it. And by the way,we encouraged all of our
customers to do it, believe

Bryan (53:49):
it

Robert (53:49):
or not, at the request of the FBI. And so I complied
with that request to compeleverybody to do so. Some did,
some didn't. Can't tell you howmany did and how many didn't.
And while I was in communicationwith them, receiving updates,
there was a conference call or 2I sat in on, got another call

(54:10):
from another agent.
Basically, I'm retelling thestory yet again, like, 2 2 or 3
days later. I kinda wrote it offand thought, alright. Like, you
know, like you said, my attackeris probably some faceless,
nameless person in some othercountry with 0 extradition to
the United States. And I'm nevereven gonna know the name of my

(54:33):
attacker. Well, as some of youwho have followed the story know
that in October of that year, anindividual, a 23 year old
Ukrainian, by the name ofYaroslav Vasinski, decided to go
back to school in Poland, whichis where he was a student, and

(54:53):
decided to travel from his homein the Ukraine, into Poland.
When he crossed the Polishborder, interpol and the Polish
police apprehended him at theborder. Why? Because the FBI had
been tracking him. They knew whohe was, and he was apprehended

(55:15):
at the request of the FBI. Whatthe FBI would later tell me,
because I've actually met, someof the people involved in the in
the case in the background, whatthey would later tell me is they
flew there.
He was very belligerent.Basically, like, f you. You're
not gonna get me. I'm going backto my country. Screw you.

(55:36):
And then 5 months later, he wasextradited to the United States
and was put in a Dallas, federalprison, and charged with
something like 11 counts fromthe Department of Justice.
Right.

Justin (55:49):
It

Robert (55:50):
was my understanding, because I, like I said, I had
some personal direct contactwith some people at the DOJ and
the FBI. They entertained myquestions. It was very gracious
to me. And for that, I'm very,very grateful that I was I had
at least a little tiny taste ofthe entire process. But I asked

(56:10):
them, like, so 5 months.
Was that, like, a long time? Andthey said, no. If you know
anything about extradition, fromcountry to country, it's
potentially a multiyear process.It was lightning fast. Mhmm.
The, the Polish authorities wereincredibly helpful. So if you
are part of the Polish lawenforcement, and you're

(56:32):
listening to me, thank you. Idon't know how to say that

Mario (56:35):
in Polish.

Robert (56:35):
Hopefully, you can understand my English.
Appreciate that. It's nice tohave allies, in the world. So
and another suspect or anothercoconspirator was indicted, and
he is living in South CentralRussia. So unlikely that that
person will, ever be, servedjustice, but Yaroslav not only

(56:58):
plead guilty, but was sentencedto 14 years.
I was present for hissentencing. I

Bryan (57:06):
got some

Robert (57:07):
impact statement, in the Earl Cabell Federal Building in
Dallas, Texas at 1100 CommerceStreet. Some things I won't
forget, before judge Schoelleron the 16th floor. Fact check
me. It's all correct. There wereassistant US attorneys present,
FBI agents present.
There was, Yaroslav was, therein an orange jumpsuit and

(57:31):
shackled at the wrists andankles. There were US Marshals,
attending to him, probablyseparating me from him. Mhmm.
You know, I kinda guess, but,you know, listen. I have a lot
of reasons to have such enormoushate in my heart.
But here's the other, I think,surprising thing. Because people
are like, you know, did youwanna, like, jump over the

(57:52):
thing? Yeah. I mean, I'm, yeah,I'm human. I a part of me
wanted, you know, to dismantlehim, you know, limb you know,
appendage by appendage, slowlyby by, by the way.
But, like, here I am looking atthis child.

Justin (58:09):
Right. That was my thought. 22.

Robert (58:12):
Get get this image out of here. What do you think about
when you hear the word hacker?Right? Hollywood, hooded,
faceless, like, dark, like, darkroom. You know?
Like, you know, it's this itwasn't some evil person. It was
this child in that room. Helooked like he was 14 years old.
And while I don't care for himas an individual, I sorta had a

(58:39):
weird sense of pity Yeah. Thathe kinda got caught up in
something that he shouldn'thave.
And while I think some of hisstatements to the judge to get
his sentence reduced were fullof crap, And I don't, you know,
I don't, I think he should serveall 14 years and wish he could

(59:01):
serve more. But I think it wasjust, you know, part of the
actions of stupid 22 year old.What I'd really like to see are
the leaders of Revill Corp.Right?

Barinder (59:12):
Mhmm. Right.

Robert (59:13):
Those are the makers of the ransomware, software that he
was using, to carry out hisdastardly deed along with his
coconspirators, plural. I'd liketo see those people brought to
justice. Yeah. Absolutely. Evilbastards.

Mario (59:30):
Yep. I I completely agree. They they never helped
with any of that stuff. I

Robert (59:37):
don't know. What do you mean? I'm sorry.

Mario (59:39):
Were were were they able to have provide any type of help
in the in the process?

Robert (59:44):
You mean the FBI?

Mario (59:45):
No. The the the people that caused the the the software
issue, to say.

Robert (59:51):
No. I mean, you know, if you if you read up on the root
news stories, what happened was,about a week into the events,
apparently, Biden called, Putin,and it was some White House to
Kremlin phone call, basically tosay knock the shit off. Right?
Because they're because Reeveilhas ties to the topmost parts of

(01:00:15):
the, Russian political, youknow, of of the government. It's
widely known that the the theleader of, Revill Corp I I can't
remember his name or I probablycan't even pronounce it, but
he's, I don't know.
He's probably in his thirties.His wife, his father-in-law is
the head of the FSB, which isthe former KGB or was. So had

(01:00:39):
direct ties to, you know, thetopmost parts of the, Russian
government, is widely known todrive one of his 5 Lamborghinis
around Moscow doing donutsaround police. You know, the guy
operates with impunity there. Sois he state sponsored?
That's kind of a gray statement,but it's pretty much I mean,

(01:01:00):
it's it's the same equivalency.Right? You know, those are the
people that need to be, broughtto justice. Right? But, you
know, they'll never leave orthey'll never set foot in a
country where the US can gettheir hands on them.

Justin (01:01:16):
When whether they're state sponsored or not,
something that's interesting inin other countries and maybe
some to some extent our own,but, these guys pay off the
government. They it's it's aline item on their p and l where
they pay for protection to dothis stuff. So sponsored or not,
they're definitely protected ina lot of cases. So we are

(01:01:37):
fighting we're fighting we'refighting big, big names. We're
not we're not fighting 22 yearolds.
We're fighting way higher thanthat, unfortunately.

Robert (01:01:46):
So so so this is the point here. Like, I saw I
finally got to meet my attackerface to face. I got probably
within about maybe 10 or 12 feetof

Justin (01:01:55):
them. Right?

Robert (01:01:56):
Like I said, I'm describing to you this, you
know, essentially, this thisperson that looks like he's a 14
year old boy to me. Right? And,you know, here I am thinking,
you know, he is the just very,very tip of the spear here.
There is so much more to thatspear Yeah. Than, you know, him.
And it's and I would really loveto get my hands on the rest of

(01:02:17):
that spear, not that very, verytip. So for those that don't
understand the way this stuffworks, it's very much like a
legitimate franchise businesshere. Right? So if I wanted to
open a Dunkin' Donuts, I couldgo make an application to
corporate to, you know, to get afranchise license. Right?
And I would have to pay money toDunkin' Donuts to use their

(01:02:40):
brand and their product and blahblah blah. Right? It's not a
lesson on franchise businessmodels. But the same parallel
exists within ransomware as aservice models, meaning some
company or some group ofindividuals, and I use the word
company literally, some company,which group of individuals,
writes the software, puts up theweb page, has all of the

(01:03:03):
processing capabilities toprocess crypto payments. Right?
And then when they collect, theygive a kickback to the
franchisee. Right? And so that'swhat this kid was caught up in

Justin (01:03:14):
Right.

Robert (01:03:14):
Was how do I make some money using Rivo Sode Nokibi.
Right? And, apparently and Idon't know what the story is. I
wish I did, but I'd be reallycurious to know how did he find
out about that 0 day exploit. Wewere fully patched on our Kaseya
VSA server.
We had the very latest securitypatch installed exactly 1 month

(01:03:38):
before our attack. I have proofof this and everything. I know
we were fully patched. Therewere still some holes, and he
walked right through that stuff.So, yeah, I know there's a you
know, there's so much in thisstory.
It's hard to kinda get it allout coherently.

Mario (01:03:55):
Yeah. Yep.

Robert (01:03:56):
I know I'm jumping around a little bit.

Bryan (01:03:58):
Al, that's

Justin (01:04:01):
I I

Mario (01:04:01):
know you created a nonprofit as a result of this
event. Yes. Can you tell usabout that?

Robert (01:04:07):
Sure. So, it was August of that summer. So about, 5 or 6
weeks after what had happened,and I was reflecting. I was
getting philosophical, on whathad just happened and, taking,
taking stock and account of, whoI owed my life to, and then

(01:04:28):
realized something that themagic of the community coming to
our aid was like the writers ofRohan, right, turning the turn
the tide of battle in the Lordof the Rings just when all hope
seemed completely lost to hearthe writers of Rohan show up and
turn the tide of that battlearound. Right?
It was really a pivotal momentin the book. And that's the way
I felt was such my, you know, myheart went out, in gratitude to

(01:04:53):
all these people. And then Irealized, like, most MSPs in
this world aren't as wellconnected as I am, have not put
the investment of time intogoing into conferences, joining
peer groups, making tons andtons of friends. Many of us,
unfortunately, sort of staystuck in our own little worlds.

(01:05:16):
Right?
I might know 1 or 2 others, butI don't really know anybody.
That's the norm. And then Ithought if one of those guys got
popped, how would they be ableto handle this? They probably
wouldn't be able to. So that wasthe genesis of my idea, and I
registered the domain nameimmediately, msp911.org, with
the idea that if you ever gethit, that you would have sort of

(01:05:39):
that giant red emergency buttonor break glass in case of
emergency.
Now we're in a little bit offlux with MSP 911 because we, I
ended up, and I'm gonna make along story short here. I ended
up meeting some folks over atCompTIA, and we, ended up
joining forces with the idea. Webranded it as the CompTIA

(01:06:02):
emergency response team, butwe're in the process. And for
all very good reasons, andeverybody is still very friendly
over this, We're in the processof spinning that off, and
becoming our own entity becausethere are some constrictions
based on CompTIA's legal charterand nonprofit status that we

(01:06:23):
can't accomplish as part of ourmission. So it's better that we,
operate as a stand alone.
So that's gonna get rebranded assomething called Cyberrise. The
website, I believe, still pointsto the Comtea landing page. So
if you went to it today on, youknow, in October of 2024, it
probably is still gonna land ona CompTIA page. But soon, we'll

(01:06:47):
have that redirected so that, itwill we will be able to take
inbound requests for help. And,it is a 100% volunteer led and
driven organization.
There are many of us, who are,inspired by some of the things
that I talk about and myexperiences as well as some
other victims that I met, thatare all willing to step up and

(01:07:11):
sort of take a rotation of beingon call. So that if somebody
gets hit, at least they've gotsomebody to help them, sort of
coach and sort of, you know,psychologically kinda get
through that and pointing themin the right direction or or or
or or being a resource to themto know who to call, what to do,

(01:07:31):
what not to do, things likethat. Right?

Barinder (01:07:34):
Hello? I just went I I just went to the website. This
is you got some good people,knowledgeable people from the
community on this. I am. Thankyou for starting this.

Robert (01:07:43):
Yeah. I am humbled to be, joined by some real, some
extremely talented and caringpeople out there. These are the
best of the best out there. MattLee, Jason Slagle, Chris Lair. I
mean, I'm just naming a few.
I mean, everybody whose namesthis, is really no joke. These

(01:08:06):
are the best of the best outthere.

So what's next for you, Robert?

Robert (01:08:11):
Yeah. That's a funny I

I hear I hear I hear, this was this was hard, but
you're now tackling somethingeven harder. Is there a book
coming?

Robert (01:08:22):
I'm working on a book.

Okay.

Robert (01:08:24):
I'd really like to get that, completed before the end
of the year. That's my promiseto myself. It's difficult
because they take a lot ofpersonal time, including
weekends to work on it. I'm atabout 75,000 words, which is a
lot of words. I probably haveabout another 10,000 to go
before I'm all done.
So it's not gonna be one ofyour, you know, typical little

(01:08:47):
pamphlet books. It's a it's it'sa story. Right? It's it's and it
needs to be told, and I'm tryingto write it so that this is a,
it's a business story and it's ahuman story. It's not a it's
not, you know, like an MSPstory.
Right?

Mhmm.

Robert (01:09:05):
I'm I'm hoping that what I can do is influence the
business community, throughawareness, and through some
storytelling. Mhmm. And I don'tknow. Beyond that, you know,
maybe there's something that canbe done legislatively. I you
know, laws aren't gonna preventpeople.
You know? You're not supposed tospit on the sidewalk or, you

(01:09:28):
know, jaywalk, yet people stilldo it. Right? You're not
supposed to rob banks that youknow? I was just I passed, I
passed the middle school that Iwent to, growing up.
I was going to my mom's housethe other day, and I kinda laugh
because there's a sign on thetelephone pole that says, you
know, drug fee free school zone.And I'm like, is that really
gonna keep out the I don't meanI don't mean to sound, you know,

(01:09:51):
sarcastic here, but, like,that's my viewpoint. Like, law's
a lot like, you know, they'rethey could be helpful. So I'm
kinda hoping to see what morecan be done through advocacy,
and spreading the spreading theword. And like I said, if I can
affect a few handful of peopleto just do better and be better,
then mission accomplished.

(01:10:12):
And if I can put together anorganization that can help
victims during their worst day,then then I've, you know, I've
also affected the world in apositive way. I wanna make sure
I leave this planet on very goodterms with, humanity.

Justin (01:10:28):
Amazing. I love the organization, Robert. God. I
just I I have had kind ofvisions or fantasies of my own
to have some sort of a communitywide MSP community wide set of
standards. Yeah.
That's kind of there there areenough resources out for that,
but this, having having somebodyyou can call in in that moment

(01:10:51):
is phenomenal because I'll tellyou what. You know, I've I
mentioned before that I've hadliteral nightmares about this
situation. I've been through iton a very small scale, long time
ago, but it haunts me. You know?And so I thanked you once.
I'm thanking you again for beinghere. One of the most
frustrating parts of, you know,our job is that we can talk

(01:11:12):
about how to prevent thesebreaches, but we don't spend a
lot of time on ground 0.

Robert (01:11:17):
And We don't.

Justin (01:11:19):
Yeah. You My my follow-up my go ahead. If you
have something to say, becauseI'm kinda winding this up.

Please. Okay.

Robert (01:11:24):
Hit me with your follow-up. Yep.

Justin (01:11:27):
Every every week, week after week, as we go and we we
break down different breachesthat we read about in the news,
and we, you know, we we throwour theories and our, you know,
if you did this, then would thathave happened? But we come down
to and I have to give you alittle bit of background. I used
to work for Loomis Armor.Carried a gun, protected other
people's money with my life.Terrible job.

Robert (01:11:47):
Should hire you.

Justin (01:11:49):
In in the gun training, one of the things they taught us
is that you and you kind of justalluded to it. We're not going
to stop crime. Yeah. We are notgoing to stop people from
getting killed protecting otherpeople's money, but what we can
do is make it happen to somebodyelse. So the lesson that I try
to learn every time I dissect abreach is how could we make this
happen to somebody else?
And, Robert, that's the hardquestion. Could you, knowing

(01:12:13):
what you know today, could youhave made it happen to somebody
else, or can you advise MSPs oneither better preparation, or,
you know, better protections,better protocols? What is your
key takeaway from having gonethrough this?

Robert (01:12:29):
So, and it wasn't an immediate key takeaway. Well,
one one part of it was, andthat's the community element.
Right? That's the sort

of the

Robert (01:12:39):
I have 3 pillars that I talk about, and that's one of
the pillars is that community isthe missing element to our
cybersecurity stacks. Usually,when I do my if I if I'm doing a
keynote speak or a presentationat a at a conference, I'll
usually say, hey. Look. Youknow, there's a lot of wonderful
cyber, tools, you know, vendorsout in the in the vendor hall in

(01:13:00):
the pavilion. Yes.
Go talk to them all. Figurethings out. But but tools alone
are not going to protect yourbusiness or your customers. You
need to invest in the community.Right?
You saw what the community didfor me, and you saw now what I'm
trying to put back into thecommunity. Community is that
missing layer that we don'treally talk about. A good friend

(01:13:23):
of mine, Wes Spencer, very wellknown in our space, when I first
met him and told him about thestory, it was actually about a
month after it happened. He wasflabbergasted. He comes from the
banking industry where he saidthere is no way that my
counterparts at other bankswould have come in to help me,
recover if we ever had aproblem, unheard of in some

(01:13:47):
other industries.
But in the MSP space,everybody's like, in their
hands, rubs them together, rollsup their sleeves, and says, how
do I help? Right? Let's go getthese guys.

Justin (01:13:56):
Yeah. Yeah.

Robert (01:13:57):
So we're just a strange bunch. I don't know.

Justin (01:13:59):
I mean, right now, I'm looking at that page saying, how
do I sign up? How do I getinvolved?

How do

Justin (01:14:03):
I be a part of this? So Right. Exactly agree.

Mario (01:14:05):
The same way.

Robert (01:14:06):
I listen. I knew instinctually. Like, even if I,
like, didn't have a good storyto tell, like, instinct all I
need to do is put it up there,and you'd be like, I don't know
who this Robert is or what hisstory is. But, yeah, that's
super interesting because itspeaks to us. So the the other
thing I would highly encourageeverybody, in the technical
space who's listening to this isyou really need to be following

(01:14:32):
some sort of framework.
Mhmm. I figured that out withinabout 6 months after our attack.
We were largely dependent uponvendors and their guidance about
how to shape our securityservices and protection for our
customers. I realized that Ineeded an an unbiased framework
to help shape what that shouldlook like. Now we landed on CIS

(01:14:55):
controls.
I'm not here to necessarilypromote them. I believe in them.
I really like what they do. AndI've modeled our, practices to
follow as closely as we can tothat model. Now if you're a NIST
fan or if you're working formainly government clients and
you gotta do something like CMMCor any of the other trillion

(01:15:20):
acronyms that we're drowning in,well, then go do that.
Right? But do it consistentlyand do it, unforgivingly. Like,
you need to be persistent withit. Just do it. Follow a
framework.
Stop pulling solutions out ofyour own hat and thinking that
you're the smartest cyber guy inthe room because you are not.

Justin (01:15:40):
Well, like I said, we're not we're not battling amateurs
here. We're not as much as like,you got to see that 22 year old
kid, but that's not our enemy.No. I mean, we are fighting the
smartest, the most brilliantpeople with resources, people
with financial backing, withgovernment backing. I mean, this
is a huge, huge, huge problem.

Robert (01:16:01):
So Justin, have you heard the term dark PE? I heard
that about 2 years ago. No. It'sprivate equity. Right?
Oh. We all know private equity.Right? Yeah. Right?
This is dark private equity.It's

Justin (01:16:12):
Oh, shit.

Robert (01:16:13):
People with money who are like, hey. I wanna get in on
this cybercrime gig. Let me gofind some some gang some, some
hacker gangs. Right? Threatactors.
Well, they don't think they'rethreat actors. Let's go, find
some of these smart, you know,business folks that are
attacking other people, and letme, fund their operation. Right?
Dark PE. Did you know thatcybercrime combined, all the

(01:16:37):
money that they collected, lastyear or the year before, I don't
remember what the exact yearwas, was $8,000,000,000,000.
And if you add that up as a GDPcomparatively, the US, number 1
at 27 trillion, China at17,000,000,000,000, 3rd largest
GDP in the world would becybercrime at 8,000,000,000,000.

(01:16:57):
The 4th largest, I think, wasGermany at 4.6 and then Japan at
4.2. So

Justin (01:17:03):
Holy shit.

Robert (01:17:05):
It is massive business. And if you think if you're
listening to this and think thatit's just a bunch of kids
messing around out of theirbasements, think again. You are
so hopelessly wrong.

Justin (01:17:20):
I I god. I'm and, like, I'm almost speechless. I will
say that I I am I am thrilled tohave had this conversation with
you. It confirms what, you know,the Yes. This group here, what
we talk about week after week,which is use the industry
standards, best practices, aframework, whatever you wanna
call it, but use publishedstandards to protect.

(01:17:42):
And I break it down into 3buckets just for so we can bite
it off and chew it easier.Protect your technology, protect
your data, protect your people,wrap it up with a good
cybersecurity insurance policy,have your policies and
procedures in place, and andthat's what we can do to fight
this battle. What thoughts onthat? Would you add anything to

(01:18:03):
that?

Robert (01:18:05):
I mean, no. I mean, you've just you've said what
I've been saying just maybe, youknow, coming at it from a
different, level, but, I guessthe only thing I would add to
that is, again, the emphasis onthe community piece. And what I
mean by that is go with aninquisitive mind. I used to be
egotistical when I joined a peergroup back in 2010. I thought my

(01:18:26):
shit didn't stink and everybodyelse sucked because I'm this
whippersnapper from New York,and we're the best.
And and I'm learning that peoplein the middle of nowhere in
Kansas were, like, wayoutshining me, so it had nothing
to do with your geography, andit didn't even have anything to
do with education. Mhmm. It justhad a lot to do with some good

(01:18:46):
common sense and, you know, somesome really smart people out
there. What I'm getting at isthis, is I don't care how
brilliant you are. There issomething for you to learn.
And Yes. Do that by checkingyour ego at the door, go to
conferences, make friends, askquestions, share like hell,
right, and you'll get back ahundredfold.

Mario (01:19:10):
I love that 100.

Justin (01:19:11):
Like I said, I'm I'm taking notes as fast as we can
do this. If if and I know we'rewe're a little over time for
what we normally spend here,but, Robert, if you have a few
more minutes, what I'd like todo is just kind of open this up,
to to each of our panelistshere. Do you guys have a final
question for Robert? Robert, ifyou're okay with that, we'll do
that, and then we'll go aheadand wrap up. And this will

(01:19:34):
conclude our cybersecurity,awareness month 4 part series.
So Mario, Brenda, and thenBrian, if you guys if you have a
question, if you're not, that'sfine. We can we can thank Robert
for being here and move on. Butif you have a question for him,
this is your chance, and thenwe'll wrap. Mario, why don't you
go ahead and go first?

Mario (01:19:55):
Yeah. So I my question is, what did what happened with
Kistea? Like, what did they tellyou? Did they, you know what was
their I'm sure you've had aconversation with them after
that. What what what did theydo?

Robert (01:20:10):
Well, I mean, if you, if you were watching, you would
have seen that they made somevery public statements about,
their desire to help out theirpartners. Let me put it this
way, Mario. I don't think thatwe necessarily got the help from

(01:20:31):
them that I was expecting, butI'm not here to disparage Kaseya
in any kind of way. And notbecause of some legal contract
because I have none with them,but by me, because I get this
question a lot. Like and somepeople will and I know you
didn't phrase it that way, butsome people don't have a high

(01:20:51):
opinion of them and try to askme that question in that way to
get me to kinda, like, bite onsomething.
And even if I did feel thosethings, it takes away from the
story. So did we get help fromthem? The short answer is no.
Not much. I mean, the help thatwe got was from the the vendor
and peer group community.

(01:21:12):
Like I mentioned, that was 99.9%of the help. And we've, you
know, we've we had to move onfrom Kaseya VSA because,
politically, I had a lot ofcustomers who were emailing me,
some of the negative press aboutthat. You know, they knew they
knew about the like, yeah. Well,you know, Microsoft knows about

(01:21:34):
a lot of 0 day exploits, but Idon't see you firing them. So,
but I I could not to say aboutGood point.

Justin (01:21:43):
Yeah. Alright, Brenda.

So many questions, but, something that might be a
benefit to any listeners is justwhat, social platforms are you
connected with? What's the bestway for people to reach out to
you if they have follow-upquestions? I'm sure long

Robert (01:21:58):
as well. Yeah. And I'm very, I'm a pretty open person
about our story, because like Isaid, it I think it improves the
world by me sharing as much as Ican. I am a LinkedIn denizen. I
probably spend too much time onLinkedIn.
That's the absolute best way tofind me. It's

(01:22:18):
linkedin.comforward/inforward/rchoffee. That's r c I o, double
f as in fox, I. Absolute bestway to connect with me. If you
decide to send me a note or aconnection request, please
reference the podcast becauseyou'd be shocked at how many,
connection requests I get, and Idon't know why people are

(01:22:41):
reaching out to me.
So some context, please, beforeyou send me an invite. But happy
to connect and continue theconversation there.

Justin (01:22:50):
That's a great question, Brenda.

They all they all they all wanna sell you something.

Robert (01:22:56):
Yeah.

Bryan (01:22:56):
Some of some

Robert (01:22:57):
of them listen. And some of them turn into that, and it's
like, I'll just politely, youknow, kinda just turn the
conversation the other way.Look. I'll answer

Justin (01:23:04):
questions for

Robert (01:23:04):
you, but,

like, I

Robert (01:23:04):
I'm, yeah, I'm I'm full. I I forgot to mention this
earlier, Robert. Have you heardabout

my new AI software? Oh, yeah.

Robert (01:23:16):
You, it's a good thing that we're remote from each
other because as soon as westart talking about AI powered
something, I'm like, come overhere.

Justin (01:23:27):
Brian, I think you're our you're our last one. Go
ahead.

Robert (01:23:29):
Cut the marketing, speak out, please. Let's get that

Justin (01:23:32):
blast back. Right? Yeah. So I

Bryan (01:23:36):
don't have a question, but I did wanna say, you know,
Robert, I've I've I've met youat conferences. I've I've
watched you present on stageabout various topics, and I just
wanted to thank you for takingthe time and effort to come out
today and and chat with us andand the rest of our our, our
potential clients and prospectsand just and and what you do for
the community in general. Thankyou very much for

Robert (01:23:55):
I appreciate that, Brian. It's, comments like that
that just give me the fuel andfire to keep going. Because
first first couple of times Idid it, I wasn't really sure,
like, am I impacting people? Dothey like to hear this stuff? I
I mean, I'm not saying I need tohear this for my ego, although
that helps a little bit.
But my point is this is if I getno feedback, then I don't know

(01:24:18):
if the things I'm playing areresonating. Because I could do
this. Right? We're recordingthis podcast. And if I get 0
people reach out to me, I I justdon't know.
Did anybody listen? Did theythink I was a buffoon? Were they
motivated, inspired? I have noidea. But if you think I'm a
buffoon, then please keep yourcomments to yourself.

(01:24:39):
And if you're inspired, or atleast humor it slightly, a kind
little note, will brighten myday, so I would appreciate it.

Justin (01:24:50):
Alright. Thank god. A couple thoughts to wrap up,
Robert. I we've been, you know,34 episodes. I'm not saying
we're Joe Rogan or anything,but, you know, we've been doing
this for a little while.
Uh-huh. And there's this episodeand there's one other episode
that have really impacted theway I look at what we do here,
both on the podcast and what Ido in my business, and maybe

(01:25:13):
even what I do in my personallife. So thank you again
sincerely for being here. Ifthere is one change we could
make in in community, as yousay, in in maybe just the
business world at large whenwe're talking about cybercrime,
if we could in fact label thevictims of this crime as victims
instead of as perpetrators, thatwould be phenomenal. Yep.

(01:25:34):
Unfortunately, that's not thecase. The ones who get hit with
these attacks are the ones whoget dragged through the mud, and
that is tragic.

Bryan (01:25:41):
We need

Robert (01:25:42):
to have more empathy for victims and remember, you know,
their you know, it it even if itis their fault to an extent.
Right? Like, I oh, I left I leftmy keys in the car, and the car
unlocked overnight, you know,but still somebody stole the
car. Right. But, like, you know,stuff happens.
Like, if you think you've got aperfect environment, you know,

(01:26:02):
give me give me 24 hours, andI'll prove you wrong.

Justin (01:26:05):
Yeah. Absolutely. So So anyways, yes. Thank you. You
have my full support.
I imagine I'm speaking foreverybody here on on what you're
doing moving forward. I willread your book when it comes out
even though it's 330 pages basedon my quick Google math, and I
have ADHD. So that will be I'mI'm telling you, if I tell you
I'm gonna read your book, thatis a huge thing because I don't

(01:26:26):
read a lot of us.

Robert (01:26:27):
But Well,

Justin (01:26:28):
may may

Robert (01:26:28):
may maybe I'll read it to you.

Justin (01:26:30):
Do audio. Please do an audible version. Please

Mario (01:26:33):
do audio. That's

Justin (01:26:35):
it's anyways, everybody, thank you for being here today.
Robert, again, can't thank youenough. And we're gonna go ahead
and wrap up. Guys, the 4th inour series for October, the
cybersecurity awareness month onthe formula for protecting your
business. So thank you all forfor being here, and we will see
you next week.
Take care.

Mario (01:26:55):
Thank you very much, sir. I appreciate it. Thank

Robert (01:26:57):
you. Alright. Peace.

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