37. Why We Are Losing the Cyberwar - The Root Cause and New Solution with Christian Espinosa

As business owners and execs, we are responsible for EVERYTHING! While cybersecurity may not be your native language, it is critical to learn enough to make informed decisions. UnHacked is a great place to start!

Today we talk with Christian Espinosa about the cybersecurity basics, as well as his 7 Step Secure Methodology. 

Episode Transcript

Justin (00:15):
Welcome everybody to episode 37 of Unhacked. Guys,
Unhacked is a bit of adeliberate misnomer. Truth is
97% of breaches, we're supposedto call those attacks now if
we're gonna be politicallycorrect or whatever. 97% of them
could have been prevented ifwe're following basic
cybersecurity measures, bestpractices, industry standards,
whatever we call them. Now,Brian, you'll remember we found

(00:37):
out on a previous episode,trolling Reddit that, an IT and
MSP owner got on there, and he'slike, I have no idea what the
hell these best practices are.
Yeah. So, like, if we don't knowit, how in the hell is a a
business owner gonna understandwhat they need to do to prevent?
But here's the situation. Okay?I'm a business owner, and I'm

(00:58):
responsible for everything.
Literally everything. Yeah. Iget a dozen calls a day from
vendors. All of them are tryingto sell me the easy button, the
magic pill, the thing that'sgoing to get me out of jail for
free, across the board. Now incybersecurity in particular, as
a normal business owner, I haveno idea what they're talking
about.
It's a completely differentlanguage. And we've broken that

(01:19):
down from a different commentthat I stole off a Reddit. I
like Reddit. But the but the

Bryan (01:24):
That makes one of us.

Justin (01:26):
There's it's a dumpster fire. It's a good place to go
get information. Here's thething, though. As a business
owner, if I get this wrong, I'min trouble. I can lose
everything.
I can lose my data, myintellectual property. I can
lose the trust that I've builtup with my clients, my,
customers, my patients, whateverwe call them, whatever industry

(01:48):
we're in. I can lose everythingin my bank account. You know,
and if if that's not enough,then now we've got the lawyers
sniffing around trying to throwclass action lawsuits on us
after we've been breached. Soit's, like, it's a war zone.
It really is. It's terrible, butthat is what we're here for.
We're here to talk to thebusiness owners who are
overwhelmed, overworked, andhelp them sort through the just

(02:12):
nightmare of recommendationsthat they're getting. Boil it
down to what are those bestpractices. What is the 97%?
The things that we can do to,like, undo or not undo. That's
the point. We can't undo it, butto prevent basically all the all
the attacks. And then, you know,if somebody wants to get in bad
enough, they're going to, so westill have to close that 3% gap.

(02:33):
We do that with a goodcybersecurity insurance policy,
and then regular policies andprocedures that we follow.
So that's what we're here for.That's what we're all about. I
am Justin Shelley, CEO ofPhoenix IT Advisors. We do most
of our work in Dallas, Texas,and then we have a little bit
going on out in Elko, Nevada upin, Northern Utah and then some

(02:54):
other places out West. I'm hereas always with my good friend,
Brian LaChapelle.
Brian, tell us what you do, whoyou do it for.

Bryan (03:01):
Alright. Well, similar to Justin, I also help business
owners with IT. My name is BrianLaChapelle with b four networks,
based out of Niagara Region,Ontario, Canada. And we help
small businesses get rid of theheadaches that come with
managing IT, securely. And Ilike to say that we help,
business owners and businessesin general go through the

(03:23):
journey of, being unsecure allthe way to being as secure as
they possibly can.

Justin (03:29):
Alright. Alright. Then we're also here with Mario, our
other good friend Mario? Shit.Mario's in all this week.
Actions. Alright. Mario's off. Idon't know. He's he's preaching
the good word somewhere.
He's at an event, preachingcybersecurity. So we're gonna
give him a pass this week, but,we have a special guest. This
week, I am excited to introduceChristian Espinosa. Now,

(03:52):
Christian, I've heard rumorsthat you are the smartest person
in the room. True or false?

Christian (03:58):
False.

Justin (03:59):
Okay. Well, at least it's the title of one of your
books. Like, you know, if if youcould get in a room of people
and and say, hey. Raise yourhand if you've ever written a
book. Not very many hands aregonna go up.
So, Christian, if that was it,if you had just written one book
and by the way, we're gonna getmore detailed into that title,
so don't worry about my stupidsmart ass comment there. You
know, of of who's written books,it's it's not very many. So if

(04:22):
that was it, if you just writtena book, that would be pretty
impressive. But you've writtenanother book, the in between.
Now this is a, oh, life in themicro.
I've gotta get the whole title.In between life in the micro,
which at at a minimum is audioversion. Do you have a a
physical book as well?

Christian (04:40):
Yes. I have a

Justin (04:41):
That probably came out first. Now you've got the audio.
I have downloaded the audio.I've started listening to it.
I'm not far enough in to reallycomment, but definitely excited
to hear more.
So not only have you written abook, you've written two books.
You've built and sold asuccessful cybersecurity company
called Alpine Security. Youfounded you currently lead the
Blue Goat Cyber for medicaldevices. You protect medical

(05:04):
devices. Now this is one that wehave not really discussed here
on the podcast, but you get apacemaker put in.
Somebody hacks your pacemaker,end of life. Where where no.
Because that's not enough.You've got a podcast going along
with that. You are a white hathacker.
Now I don't know about you,Brian, but this might be worth a

(05:25):
separate episode where we diginto white hat hacking, what
that means

Bryan (05:28):
Absolutely.

Justin (05:29):
The benefits. You're a keynote speaker. I mean, maybe
you'll break you know, you talkto us about some of the places
you've spoken. Heavy metalconnoisseur. Now tell me,
Christian, what is your favoriteband?
I've gotta know.

Christian (05:43):
It used to be Nightwish, but I think it's Arch
Enemy now.

Justin (05:47):
Oh, I don't even know what those are. So I guess I am
not a heavy metal connoisseur.It turns

Christian (05:51):
out I like I like I like Metallica as well.

Justin (05:53):
Whew. That's a name I know. That's a woman name. I
would go with ACDC as my topYeah. Rock band.
I don't know that they're reallyheavy metal, though. So that's
Yeah.

Christian (06:02):
They're more

Justin (06:03):
rock. Yeah. Yeah. And and if we went if we moved into
more modern, something that theyoungsters these days would
understand, it would bedisturbed. They're probably my
most recent favorite band.
Still, I don't know that theyreally fit the true heavy metal
category, but, anyways, I I am alover of rock. We'll say that. I

(06:25):
guess you've been skydiving.You've been diving underneath
the water. Sky a dive master,that's somebody I you you teach
people to dive.
Is that correct?

Christian (06:33):
Correct. Yeah.

Justin (06:34):
Okay. Okay. Well, maybe we'll have to talk about that
someday because that's anotherthing I always wanted to do. You
scaled two of the seven summits.What the hell?
Do you mind telling us which ofthe two you've scaled?

Christian (06:45):
I've done Kilimanjaro, which is in Africa,
and Mount Elbrus, which is inRussia. It's the highest peak in
Europe.

Justin (06:54):
Damn. Very cool. Okay. Crazy. I mean, these are these
are in the category of Everest.
Right? And I I don't knowanything about climbing, but I
did watch the documentary onEverest, and it took away any
need I ever have to try thisout. I mean, the the Sherpa, the
guy in charge, the one leadingthe pack, spoiler alert, he
died. Not interested, butHopefully you've done that. Now

(07:20):
here's here's where I I do get alittle excited, though, Kristen.
You've done 24 Ironmantriathlons. Unreal. I don't
wanna brag, but I've done fivemarathons, and I used to think
that made me the shit. Right? 1%of the population has ever done
a marathon.
26.2 miles, and I'm like, man,I'm I'm something. And I'm
actually getting ready to do mysixth one this year. Nice. Then

(07:43):
I see yours, 24. So, guys, ifyou don't know what an Ironman
is, it's a marathon.
That's a part of it. That's athird of it. And then you've
gotta swim 2.4 miles. I I don'tknow how to swim. I can barely
if I dive off the diving board,I can doggy paddle to the side.
That's it. I'm not making it 2.4miles. And then you gotta ride,
and I don't know which orderthey go in, but you've gotta

(08:03):
ride a bike for a 12 miles. So,this makes marathoning look like
child's place. So, Christian,Jesus Christ, when are you gonna
do something with your life?
That is my question, my burningquestion.

Christian (08:14):
Working on it. I'm still working on it.

Justin (08:16):
Okay. Alright. Well, we'll we'll give you a pass on
that, and then maybe we'll doanother follow-up episode when
you've actually gotten off thecouch and done something. Joking
aside, let's get serious. Let'stalk about cybersecurity.
Because like I said, this isit's a real issue. It's
something that I mean, if we'rebeing honest, nobody really
wants to talk about. You gotenough problems running a

(08:37):
business. It's kinda like buyinginsurance. Like, yeah, you have
to do it, but can we just do itand be done and and walk away?
But you said something thatcaught my attention. You said
that we are losing the cyberwar. Now as a soldier in the
war, or whatever title I'd givemyself, I didn't like to hear
that. We're losing. And then,but you you gave a little bit of

(08:58):
hope when you said the rootcause and the new solution.
So I'm gonna punt to you,Christian, and I want you to
just like, let's talk high levelfirst, and then we're gonna dive
in and break this stuff down.We're talking to the
overwhelmed, the overworked, theI I don't wanna say
undereducated, but definitelynot the cybersecurity
specialized business owner. Whatdo we need to tell them to help

(09:20):
them win this war and stoplosing it? Because the truth is
we are. You look at the news allday every day.
Somebody's getting breached.Somebody's losing everything.
Somebody's going out ofbusiness. So, Christian, what is
the good news for today?

Christian (09:32):
Well, the good news is there are some relatively
simple things you can do toreally minimize the risk of
someone attacking yourenvironment.

Justin (09:40):
Okay.

Christian (09:42):
And you know those things are often ignored. Nobody
considers cybersecurity untilit's too

Justin (09:46):
late. Correct.

Christian (09:47):
And as a small business owner, I think it's
extremely important to considercybersecurity because most
businesses go out of businessafter a cybersecurity, you know,
data breach.

Bryan (10:01):
Correct.

Justin (10:01):
Yeah. Do you have to happen to have the statistics on
that?

Christian (10:05):
I think it's eighty eighty something percent.

Justin (10:07):
Kinda what I've heard too is that, you know, when if
if you get hit, it's it's justthe the odds of coming back and
kinda like we talk about the thetitle of this podcast, you're
not getting unhacked. You canrecover. Like, some people do.
They recover. They stay inbusiness, but you do it with a
damaged reputation.
You do it with a lot less moneythan you had when you started
out. You do it with new friendsin the, legal profession, and

(10:30):
and the government. Right? Yougot new friends in the
government too. It's just Yeah.
It's not a good situation. So, Imean, we don't wanna get there.
So what do I do as a businessowner to make sure that I'm not
this guy?

Christian (10:43):
Well, I think something you have to do is put
cybersecurity on your road map.And one of the problems we have
is cybersecurity professionalsare not the best communicators.
And and they don't understandwhat it's like to run a small
business. So they'll tell youyou have to do 100 things in

(11:04):
order to be secure. The realityis all those 100 things should
be prioritized by which givesyou the biggest bang for the
buck.
And from my experience, if youdo, like, five of those things
very well versus a hundredhorribly, you'll be much more
secure.

Justin (11:21):
Yeah. Alright. I'm gonna jump Oh, go ahead.

Bryan (11:23):
Would it be safe to say then because I like the word
journey. Would it be safe to saythat if you when you say
prioritized, like, maybe, youknow, in the first quarter, we
handle these five things and getreally good at them, and then we
move on to another couple thingswhile keeping those five things
in place. And then every everyquarter, we just keep adding a
little bit more, hence the name,you know, going through the

(11:46):
journey of cybersecurity versus,you know, hey. You're not doing
these hundred things. You're abad guy.

Christian (11:51):
Yeah. I like that term journey. Typically, when
I've done consulting in the pastfor small businesses, we we set
up a road map that did justthat. Each quarter they would
master one thing, next quartermaster the next thing and just
keep adding to that because itdoesn't make sense to do
everything, especially if you'rea startup, you're not that

(12:12):
mature with your other businessprocesses. There's still a way
to expect you to be secure orsorry, mature in cybersecurity.

Bryan (12:21):
Yeah. I I heard, Robert Herjavec, on a recent, video
clip, and he was saying how somepeople over plan, and they do
like, they're trying to scale.And instead of, worrying about
the immediate and the nearfuture, they're they're they're
trying to scale for the nextfive years, and and they don't
have the budget and or thefinances or the resources to do

(12:41):
the full scaling, and they endup flopping and losing money and
not being able to to sustaintheir business practices. I
think it's the same incybersecurity in a way. Would
you would you agree that if youtry to do too much, you just
don't have the the the abilityto get great at it all, and then
you end up not being able tospend the money that you need to
focus on the right areas?

Christian (13:00):
Yeah. A %. And, you know, a small business owner
should talk to a cybersecurity,a trusted advisor early on and
they can help steer directionsfor what kind of systems to use,
what the risks are with thosesystems, how to secure, you
know, your Google workspace orwhatever you're using. You know,

(13:20):
I think it's if you do somethingearly on, you can help prevent a
lot of these problems. And thenthere's ways to mitigate the
risk as well.
So, yeah, it's it's it's oftenignored, though, until there's
an issue.

Bryan (13:36):
No one has the budget until after the fact.

Justin (13:38):
Oh, isn't that the truth? It's like you can No.

Christian (13:40):
They either have a budget or they're out of
business, basically. Right? It'sone of those two.

Justin (13:44):
Sometimes that budget is court ordered. Let so let's this
is an interesting point, and weusually break this down from the
perspective of a business owner.Like, I I'm a business owner. I
don't have the money, the theresources, the attention, the
time in my day to do all of thisstuff at once, and so we're
gonna break it down into pieces.But if we're just gonna be
transparent about our industry,we also don't.

(14:05):
Right? Like and I mean, if Ipick up a new client and their
their security is a mess, Icould go in there and I could
recommend everything. In fact, Icould even sell them everything.
But then do we really have thecapacity to deliver that all at
once and do it right and do itwell? So, you know, even even
from our perspective, and,Brian, Christian, tell me if you
disagree with this, we do haveto pick the most important

(14:27):
things, the most basic, the mostyou know, the ones that give you
the biggest bang for the buckand start there and get that
done and do it well.
Do it right. And then we cantalk about a a more mature
stack. Is that is that accurate?You guys have any thoughts on
that?

Christian (14:40):
I think I agree. I I I think it's mostly accurate,
but I I think it depends on thelens you're coming through. So
if you're like a firewallprovider, you're you're gonna
try to sell them a firewall nomatter what, even if they don't
even need it.

Justin (14:53):
Correct.

Bryan (14:53):
And a

Christian (14:53):
lot of small business business owners will buy a
firewall because it'sadvertised. It'll solve all your
problems. But that's we knowthat's not true. But but so
they'll say you have to have thefirewall, and it'll do
everything for you. Or you haveto have this this, anti spam
device or whatever, versus thenumber one thing you should do
is, like, understand your ownenvironment and patch your

(15:15):
systems to make sure they'reconfigured properly.

Justin (15:18):
You know,

Christian (15:18):
that would prevent mostly attacks, but that that is
rarely talked about if you'retrying to sell a firewall.
That's an example.

Justin (15:24):
That's right. It's a great example because it
actually just came up for merecently. I have a client which
is and this is, like, anightmare situation where I am
in a joint responsibility forcybersecurity with another
vendor. And I'm not gonna getinto why. It's it's it's a real
thing.
It happens, and there's nothingthat any of us can do about it.

(15:45):
So they've got a situation wherethey need equipment to be
replaced. They need to be donenow. The equipment is failing.
It's taking down their network.
And when I when I went to them,I approached them. I said, hey.
Here's what we need to do. We'vewe've known about this for two
years. Like, it's time to justpull the trigger.
We gotta get it done. They said,yes. Let's do it. Then all of a

(16:05):
sudden, well, we don'tunderstand why we need that. We
have this other vendor who'ssupposed to be doing all this
for us.
And, Christian, they were when Isaid, I hey. Let me let me talk
to this other vendor. We'regonna put our heads together.
Let's make sure we're notoverselling you because we never
wanna do that. And the othervendor is providing a firewall.

(16:26):
That was it. That was it. That'stheir entire Yeah. Other than
software, they also you know,they they have some software
that they sell them. So, you'reright.
It it does depend on theperspective we're coming from.
But it really doesn't justillustrate the problem that
business owners have where theyare talking to different people
in a language they don't knowand understand, and everybody's

(16:46):
telling them somethingdifferent. So Yeah. What's
what's a guy to do? What's abusiness owner to do in this
situation?

Christian (16:53):
I think they need to take ownership and learn a
little bit about cybersecurity.So they're not fooled or tricked
by all these vendors trying tosell them, you know, endpoint
protection, which is a big one,and get them on a subscription.
And I'm not saying that youdon't need employee protection,
but, you know, I think you haveto make informed decisions. Just
like when someone's trying tosell me as a business owner lead
generation services.

Justin (17:14):
Oh my god. Those are everywhere. Yeah. And they don't
work.

Christian (17:19):
I tried one. I've tried a couple, and they did not
work a %. But I really get phonecalls or emails every day about
those. So Yes. I had to educatemyself on how the lead gen works
and what I should do myself.
So I think it's the same conceptwith cybersecurity. It's just I
think it's overly complicated.And when someone hears the word

(17:40):
cybersecurity, a business owner,they just sort of tune out.
Correct. And I think I think andI wrote about this in my first
book.
As an industry, we've done ahorrible job with all this,
like, extra vernacular, thislanguage, talking over people's
heads, making it supercomplicated. And I think we've
done this because cybersecuritypeople wanna be, quote, smart.
So we have our own language. Itlooks like we're smart, but we

(18:02):
can't communicate with abusiness owner, effectively. And
that's, you know, where I thinkthe big gap is in cybersecurity.

Justin (18:09):
Okay. So that's a perfect segue into the title of
your book that I intentionallytwisted. So you I'm like, hey.
You think you're the smartestperson in the room, which is the
exact opposite of what that bookwas about. Right?
So, do you wanna talk a littlebit about that book and what it
is? What what's your coremessage there?

Christian (18:29):
My core message is in order to be a good communicator
and collaborator, you need toput your ego aside. In
cybersecurity, most people gettheir significance by being
smarter than other people, likeintellectually smarter and your

(18:52):
ego does what it can to protectthat. So if I'm talking to
someone, like a client, if Italk over their head and they
don't understand it, my ego issaying, look how smart I am.
They don't even know what I'mtalking about, which is which is
the problem because if theclient doesn't know what you're
talking about about how to fixthe vulnerability or about what
those top five things are thatthey should be doing, then

(19:13):
they're not gonna do it andthey're just gonna tune out.
Right.
And we hear this incybersecurity all the time.
Like, people say, well, I didn'tget the budget. And typically
it's because they talk all thistechnical lingo when they're
asking a board of directors fora budget versus just explaining
it in terms that make sense forthe business. So it's really
putting the ego aside, andtrying not to be the smartest

(19:36):
person in the room andunderstanding, like, the lens
the person you're communicatingwith is seeing the world
through, which is not the samelens as you, obviously.

Justin (19:46):
No. And I I actually love that concept of, you know,
and it we've heard this. We weshould not be the smartest
person in the room because thenit or what's it saying? You
know, if you're the smartestperson in the room, find a
different room. You're the wrongperson.

Bryan (20:01):
Yeah.

Justin (20:01):
And and I have said before that the primary reason
that I do this podcast isbecause I'm trying to get
smarter. I do not considermyself the smartest person in
the world of cybersecurity, butI absolutely do want to
interface with those people.Right. Right? And that's that's
why we've got Brian here today.
Yeah. You're

Bryan (20:20):
in the wrong room.

Justin (20:24):
We have fun here.

Bryan (20:25):
I'm good, but I'm not the best.

Justin (20:27):
But I mean, it's we we do have to be upping our game
all the time. And and, Kristen,you make a phenomenal point,
though. If if we cannotarticulate what it is, why it
matters, what solve what problemit solves, to business owners,
then we're doing them adisservice. We're we're we're in
fact, we're not just not helpingthem. We're actually making it.

(20:48):
I mean, how many people have wetalked to about cybersecurity
and their eyes glass over?Right? They just they just
aren't interested. But I loveyour point also that we have to
as business owners, we are infact responsible for everything,
and therefore, we better have abasic knowledge of everything.
We don't have to be used fordinner.

Christian (21:07):
The podcast software that, didn't you?

Justin (21:08):
Yeah. Yep.

Christian (21:09):
So why why exclude cybersecurity?

Justin (21:12):
Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yep. Okay.
You have a framework in yourbook that you call the seven
step secure methodology. Whydon't we that is specifically
referring to cybersecurity,correct? Or is it more broad? Is
it is it about everything lifein general?

Christian (21:32):
It's more broad. It's about life in general and really
developing emotionalintelligence and self
leadership.

Justin (21:38):
Okay. So let's let's go ahead and go there because I
think, you know, as I as I readthrough this, I picked up a lot
of things that do apply exactlyto what we're talking about
here. And my favorite honestlyis mindset. I think Brian's is
gonna be your last one. Is itKai san?
Is that how you say that?

Bryan (21:55):
Kai san. Yeah. That's definitely my that's my
favorite.

Justin (21:57):
So so, Christian, would you mind breaking down your your
seven step process and, youknow, kind of bring it back home
to to cybersecurity even thoughit it is about everything?

Christian (22:09):
Yeah. The seven steps I developed with my first
cybersecurity company, AlpineSecurity, like 99% of my
problems in the company werebecause my staff, which are
highly rationally intelligent,they didn't have any emotional
intelligence. So they would talkover clients heads, not
communicate well. So I did a lotof work with my team to develop

(22:32):
emotional intelligence. And whatworked became those seven steps.
The first step is awareness. Ithink we all need to have
awareness. And a lot of us don'tunderstand that from an
awareness perspective, we'revery predictable. And I talk
about neuro linguisticprogramming quite a bit in my
book. But from an awarenessperspective, if we have a

(22:55):
stimulus, a program runs in ourbrain and we respond.
That's our behavior. So if ourbehavior is not serving us, it's
important to install anotherprogram, basically. An example
of this in my company, I had oneguy, every time somebody asked
him a question, he got defensiveand didn't respond very well.

(23:17):
That was his default program. Soinstead of doing that We've

Justin (23:20):
done that before.

Christian (23:22):
Yeah. We I think a lot of us have done this. Right?
So instead of doing that though,he could maybe say, okay,
someone's asking a question.Maybe I can get curious instead
of defensive and articulate,like, to the person, like, why
they're asking the question,understand more where they're
coming from.
So that that's awareness. If ourbehavior is not serving us, we
need to change that behavior bydoing install a new program,

(23:46):
which you have to believe instep two, which is mindset that
our brains are not hardwired. Wecould learn new things. Our
brains have neuroplasticity. Soin step two mindset, it's
important to have a growthmindset.
A growth mindset means we canlearn new things, we can learn
new behaviors, we can evolve.And if we have a fixed mindset,

(24:09):
which is the opposite, thatmeans we think we're just the
way we are. We can't change. Youhear a lot of people say, that's
just the way I am. That's justwho I am.
That is a fixed mindset, andthat tells you that that person
is only only gonna get in lifemore of what they've already
gotten. They're not evolving.Step three is acknowledgment. As

(24:33):
a leader, I think it's importantto acknowledge people. And one
of the things I struggle withwas acknowledging myself.
We talked about Ironman earlier.I remember in 02/2005, I stood
under the Ironman WorldChampionship in Hawaii, and I
had never done an Ironman atthat point. I just was
interested in it. And I toldmyself there's a picture of me
under the the the finish line. Itold myself, one day I'll do

(24:55):
this freaking race.
Ten years later, in 2015, I didthe race. I crossed it as a as a
finisher.

Justin (25:01):
Nice.

Christian (25:02):
And I never took a second to acknowledge myself. I
thought I'm actually thinkingabout the next big thing to
accomplish. And I realized if Ican't acknowledge myself for
something that took me ten yearsto do, I'm probably doing a
crappy job acknowledging my teamor my clients or my spouse, or,
you know, my family or anybodyaround me. So I had to really

(25:25):
work on that.

Justin (25:26):
I now tell me if this fits because in in my language,
I I talk about celebrating thesmall victories in life. You
know, we can and it that's whatI think of when you talk about
standing under the Ironman.You'd you're gonna do it some
days. Ten years later, like,that's a long time. You planned.
You worked. You you did a lot ofwork to get there, and you did
it. And and what I'm hearing yousay is you didn't just stop and

(25:49):
celebrate that moment. Is thatright? And that's and that's a
huge achievement.

Christian (25:54):
I do not. No.

Justin (25:56):
And and I think that there's there's we can do that
throughout, like, all day everyday. We can find the well, like,
what's the best thing we didtoday? Because it's easy to
think shit. I didn't do this. Ididn't do that.
I I got a a checklist this long,a mile long, that I didn't get
half of it done. I didn't evenget a third of it done. You
know? But but taking a secondjust to celebrate those things
that we did do is huge.

Bryan (26:18):
Yeah. And and and celebrating the things that our
teams are doing is is

Justin (26:22):
one of

Bryan (26:22):
the most important things. Yeah. I think that's
what correct me if I'm wrong.You're you're talking about
Christian. Like, we internallyat b four networks, every
morning, we'll hand out, thegoat.
And it's it's who in theprevious day has exemplified the
most in getting better or ortrying to make ourselves, our
teammates, and our clients 1%better and and and have improved

(26:43):
something or or made,improvements to themselves. And
we celebrate that every day, andit's the person who wins it then
decides who gets it tomorrow.And, and that's how we've
handled acknowledgment. Is thatwhat your your, methodology
talks about, is is acknowledgingothers and their their their
wins?

Christian (27:01):
Yeah. Exactly. I mean, everybody wants to feel
appreciated and understood.

Justin (27:06):
Yeah.

Christian (27:06):
It's easy to say we didn't do enough. We did it. We
only got halfway through ourlist, but we also did half of
our list. Right? Right.

Justin (27:13):
Right. So I

Christian (27:14):
I think that's important. In my company now, we
do a daily update in Slack, andI have in there where someone
can give a shout out to somebodyelse. Like Nice.

Justin (27:24):
Is a

Christian (27:24):
way to acknowledge some what some what somebody
contributed to a project or, youknow, to to morale or whatever.

Bryan (27:31):
I love that. Yep. That's awesome.

Justin (27:33):
And and, honestly, we can take this to, you know,
bringing it back tocybersecurity because there is a
never ending and ever evolvinglist of things that we're
supposed to do to protect ourbusinesses. It can get really
defeating if we don't take aminute to look at the things
that we do have in place. Youknow? Are we do we at least have
two factor authentication set upeverywhere? You know, that's

(27:54):
something that we can celebrate.
That's a big one. Do we haveproper? And I I don't wanna get
into culture yet because I wannacome back to that. We're gonna
circle back to mindset. But, youknow, have we established if if
we do nothing else, have weestablished a good culture
around cybersecurity in ourbusiness?
That would be something worthyof celebrating, you know, and
acknowledging. So, okay. So notto derail you too much. We've

(28:16):
been through awareness, mindsetacknowledgement. What else do we
have in this methodology?

Christian (28:21):
Yeah. I I think it's worth touching on acknowledgment
one more time because you wantto acknowledge the behavior you
want more of.

Justin (28:29):
Yes.

Christian (28:29):
And I wrote about this in my book and there was a
there is a pool with a wetfloor. There is two signs. One
sign says caution, don't slip.One sign says caution, walk
carefully. And guess whichresulted in more people
slipping?
The one that said don't slip. Sowe get more of what we focus on.

(28:52):
So and like you said, incybersecurity, it is a very
challenging job. If there's ahundred vulnerabilities, if we
miss one, the criminal can breakinto our environment and then
compromise everything. And oftenall we do is focus on that one
thing we missed versus the 99things we got right.
Yeah. And that's where that'swhere acknowledgment comes into

(29:13):
play as well because it's it'seasy, to always focus on the one
thing you got wrong. There'salways something gonna It's

Justin (29:19):
how our brains are wired, honestly. Right? Like, we
are designed as humans to lookfor danger, to look for risk, to
look for problems that couldkill us, and focus on those
things. But it can it can workto our detriment if we aren't
just taking a minute toappreciate the things we've
already done, because that'swhat gives in my world, anyways,
that's what gives me themotivation to then keep charging

(29:40):
forward. Because if I don't havethose little celebrations, like,
I'm out.
If I if I do an Ironman and, youknow, I'm I'm not happy about
the the outcome and I don't takea minute to acknowledge that,
I'm sure as hell not doing howmany more did you do after that?
23 more of them. So at somepoint, I'm guessing you did
acknowledge, you did celebrate,and and decide that that payoff

(30:02):
was worth going and and doing atleast a few more of those. Yeah.
Okay.
Alright. Anything else onacknowledgment?

Christian (30:13):
No. I think I think that's a good overview. There's
much more about it in my book,obviously. The next step is
communication. It's a massivetopic.
But one of the things I alwaystie it back to is one of the NLP
presuppositions which is themeaning of communication is the
response you get. So what thatdoes is shifts the ownership

(30:39):
back to you to change how youcommunicate if you're not
getting the budget, if yourclients aren't understanding, if
your spouse gets upset, youknow, the ownership is back on
you. It's very easy to blame theother person, or they're they're
just not smart enough. That'swhy they didn't understand it.
Or she just doesn't get me.

(31:00):
You know, that that doesn't thatdoesn't work, though. So So the
ownership needs to ship back toyou and in cybersecurity, this
is a massive problem. We alwaysjust say, Oh, the clients don't
get it. They're stupid. I mean,there's even memes about this
stuff, right?
But I'm like, the client's afreaking doctor. Do you know how
to perform heart surgery? Whatif they tell you all about how

(31:21):
to perform heart surgery? You'reprobably not going to get it
either. Right?
But cybersecurity people don'tthink of it that way because,
like I said, they want to be thesmartest person in the room and
make other people feel feelsmall, unfortunately. That that
is I I know I'm generalizing,but that has been my overarching
experience with cybersecurityprofessionals.

Justin (31:39):
No. I think you're I think you nailed it. Like, we do
blame clients and prospects inthis industry. I hear it all the
time. And and in fact, when, youknow, in in marketing, we go and
we describe our demographic andour psychographic.
And one of the things I hearfrequently is they value
technology. Well and and thenthe counter that technology. The

(32:00):
complaint is they just don'tvalue technology. They don't
value what we do.

Bryan (32:04):
It's like, oh, they don't

Justin (32:05):
know what the hell you do.

Bryan (32:06):
So they value what technology can do for them. The
result. Exactly. Result of whatthey're Absolutely.

Justin (32:12):
Absolutely. So this is a failure to communicate. Right?

Bryan (32:15):
Right. And failure to communicate what like, most, at
least as my experience, most IPprofessionals are going in
saying, if you don't havebackups, you're gonna lose your
data. And really what they'retrying to say is, if you lose
your data, here's theramifications on your business.
Loss of revenue, loss of client,loss of clients, potential

(32:35):
clients being angry with you,not being able to fulfill your
obligations to your your youryour clients, so on and so
forth. Right?
What are the impacts to them,not you lose your data? The data
doesn't matter to them. The theend result of what they need the
data for matters to them.

Justin (32:48):
%. So you you do this already, Brian, so I'm not
calling you up, but I'm going tosay that the precursor to what
you just said is to know if thatreally is a problem for them.
Right. Yeah. A lot of times wetry to sell solutions to
problems that they either don'thave or don't care about.
Exactly.

Bryan (33:04):
So Yeah.

Christian (33:04):
That's why you have to look at the world through
their lens and articulateAbsolutely. Change your
communication based on that.Right.

Bryan (33:10):
Yeah. And that that all starts with asking a pile of
questions and and not notselling, but but asking
questions to understand what itis they're they need and what it
is that is important to them andthen using that information to
then talk about how by not doingwhat they need to do in in the

(33:30):
world of cybersecurity, how thatwill impact what matters to them
versus what matters to me.Right.

Christian (33:36):
Yep. %. I I think curiosity is like like losing
traction anymore. Like, peoplearen't curious about other
people, Harley. It seems like

Bryan (33:45):
Yeah.

Christian (33:45):
But if if you're gonna if you're curious and you
ask those questions, you'llunderstand, oh, this is how how
they feel about this. So this ishow I can position my solution,
and this is what they reallyneed. You know? It requires you
to ask

Bryan (33:57):
the other question. Again.

Justin (34:00):
Couples therapy. Oh, no kidding.

Bryan (34:04):
I've never been there, so

Justin (34:04):
I don't know what you're talking about. But, anyways, the
the curiosity to take that astep further, it's more and and
when I said it, I'm gonna callmyself out because when I said
it, we have to ask thosequestions first. It was a
curiosity of how do I sell themwhat I want them to buy or and
that came out wrong. But, like,kind of that's what we do.
Right?
It it's a curiosity of how do Itailor my, whatever I'm selling

(34:27):
them to meet their needs, but itreally isn't, at least it
doesn't come naturally, a truecuriosity for who they are, what
they want, what theirperspective is, and and really
joining them in that world andin their mindset, in their
world. We do a lot of times tryto ask questions in order to
persuade them to a different wayof thinking. Sometimes that's

(34:49):
the right answer, but I do thinkit's it's a deep dive first to
really truly understand, whatthe problem is and and what the
fear is behind it. What, youknow, what are we solving?
Right?

Christian (35:02):
Yeah. A %.

Bryan (35:05):
Alright.

Christian (35:06):
Yeah. The next step is monotasking, which is the
antithesis of multitasking.

Bryan (35:14):
Wait a

Justin (35:14):
minute. Nobody gets a trophy for that though.
Everybody gets trophies formultitasking. Come on,
Christian. Josh (3one 30:

Christian (35:18):
I don't give out trophies for multitasking. In
fact, if someone puts theirgreat multitasker on a resume, I
immediately say,

Justin (35:25):
I'm not- Josh

Christian (35:25):
(3one 30

Justin (35:26):
I know. I know. I know. I know. I know.
I know. I know. I know. I know.I know.
I know. I know. I know. I know.I know.
I know. I know. I know. I know.

Christian (35:27):
I know. I

Justin (35:29):
Yeah. And not getting nothing done, right?

Christian (35:32):
Yeah. So, monotasking solves two things. It makes you
productive, much moreproductive, the multitasking.
And it improves yourrelationships because if you're
present with somebody, you'renot thinking about something,
you're not on your phone, you'regonna have a better relationship
with them. And that goes back tothe communication as well.
These things all tie together.For me with monotasking, I put

(35:54):
hour chunks of time on mycalendar, sometimes an hour and
a half, where during that time,that's the only thing I do. I
don't like, if I'm gonna work onmy next book, I don't check my
phone. I don't check Slack forthe hour. That's all I do.
And I can get way much more doneby monotasking than by bouncing
back and forth between task.

Bryan (36:16):
And then

Christian (36:17):
and then, like, at at dinner, if I'm going to dinner
with my spouse, we don't sitthere on our cell phones. We
actually are present and have a,you know, nice evening. But then
if I look around the restaurant,I see couples there and they're
both just on their phones. SoI'm thinking that's probably not
a very pleasant experience forthem because if someone picks up

(36:38):
their phone and they're notlistening, oftentimes I will
just stop talking.

Bryan (36:43):
Wait. What?

Justin (36:44):
Exactly, Justin. Sorry.

Christian (36:46):
I almost did. I was like, okay. I'm not gonna talk
anymore. But I know I knowyou're just messing around.
Yeah.

Bryan (36:53):
I saw I saw a video once. It was, it was a guy, who was,
like, there was a text overlay,and it said, you know, whenever
whenever my wife and I are onthe phone at the same time at a
restaurant, I sometimes put myphone down and hide it and then
just look like I'm the the the,the husband that's neglected. He
just is there, like, lookingaround, like

Justin (37:14):
See, I'll start sending them messages.

Bryan (37:16):
I'll text

Justin (37:18):
them or, you know, tag them in Facebook or whatever.

Bryan (37:20):
Like Yeah. Yeah.

Justin (37:22):
Oh, yeah. We're on a date. I forgot.

Christian (37:24):
Well, it's it's so we live in a very distraction
filled world now.

Justin (37:27):
So We do. Yeah.

Christian (37:28):
Being able to focus on something is, very
challenging. But multitasking,is also very anxiety producing
because you feel like

Justin (37:37):
Oh, god.

Christian (37:37):
You're at the whim of everyone else's demand. You have
to respond to everything atonce. Yeah. And rarely is
something critical.

Bryan (37:45):
You know?

Justin (37:45):
I'll be honest. If I if I really need to focus on a
task, I have to get clear awayfrom my computer and get out a
pen and paper. Mhmm. Because Ican, you know, I can close
Outlook. I can close everyapplication on my computer, but
I'm still gonna get messagesbeeping like Teams.
Teams will get through that,like, unless you go in and mute
it. You can take a lot of steps.

Christian (38:05):
Gotta close Teams too, you know.

Bryan (38:07):
Close Teams.

Justin (38:07):
Well, you can't just close it. You have to go in and
put do not disturb on it becauseit runs in the background.

Bryan (38:11):
Oh, yeah.

Justin (38:12):
I'll still get little messages popping up even if I've
closed the application. And thenyou have to remember to mute
your phone, and then you have toremember to disable your
smartwatch because I can mute myphone, and then my stupid watch
steep keeps going off. It'slike, Jesus Christ. Leave me
alone.

Christian (38:25):
You cannot get away from multitasking. This is like
it's impossible almost. Itsounds

Bryan (38:29):
like You need one button to turn everything off or

Justin (38:32):
Me too.

Bryan (38:32):
Yeah. I even put a I put a sign, like a like a cone
outside my door, like, thatbasically tells

Justin (38:38):
me to, like,

Bryan (38:38):
don't disturb and and, that way. Yeah. And then I'm I
have the ability to muteeverything in fairly quickly on
my computer.

Justin (38:44):
Well, we wonder why we have so much anxiety and ADHD
and, you know, need for some ofthese medications in this world.
It's like Yeah. I mean, we can'tget away from it. So, yeah,
that's that's huge. And I think,honestly, Christian, that's
probably one of the, I don'tknow, least discussed or, you
know, the the unsung hero.
This this topic right here issomething we should probably

(39:07):
focus on more.

Bryan (39:09):
So

Christian (39:09):
Yes. Very good. I know you said you use pen and
paper, something I do. Mhmm.I'll shut everything off even if
it's running the background.
I'll turn the background off,but I I will listen to binaural
beats. They're at a certainfrequency

Justin (39:22):
Mhmm.

Christian (39:23):
Which I found actually helps me focus. There's
some specifically on how tofocus.

Justin (39:28):
So you

Christian (39:29):
just put it on, you know, put it put it on with your
heads your headphones, and, itactually at least for me, it
actually works.

Justin (39:36):
I'm I'm writing that one down. I need all the help I can
get here. I have undiagnosedADHD, and it's not, it's not
pleasant. It's not a minor caseof it. It's bad.
So

Bryan (39:48):
Self diagnosed, you mean? Well, yeah. Yeah.

Justin (39:53):
Alright. So, monotasking, huge, huge thing
there. And, next, we've gotempathy. Let's talk about
empathy.

Christian (40:01):
Yeah. The next step is empathy. I think in today's
society people find it hard tobe empathetic because you see
everybody is a differentfaction. So cybersecurity people
see themselves as the geeks.They see management as

(40:22):
management.
They see the salespeople assalespeople. Doctors see
themselves as doctors andpatients as patients. We have
pro gun, anti gun, Democrats,Republican. But the bottom line
is when you don't see someone asa fellow human being, you see
them as that other faction.

Justin (40:41):
Right.

Christian (40:41):
The empathy kind of goes out the window. And I wrote
about this in my in the firstbook, and I also touched upon in
my second book. A couple ofyears ago, I was diagnosed with
blood clots.

Justin (40:54):
I

Christian (40:54):
had six in my left leg and then I almost didn't
make it.

Justin (40:58):
Oh, damn.

Christian (40:58):
And I I had like I said, we've I've done 24
Ironmans. I literally just justdone, like, 120 burpees the day
before I went to the hospital.My my legs started hurting, so I
went to hospital, with thecoaching and of a friend of
mine. A coke coaxing, notcoaching, because I don't like
hospitals. But when the doctortold me, I said, what does this

(41:21):
mean?
Because I don't know anythingabout blood clots. He said it
means I could have a stroke ordie at any moment.

Justin (41:27):
And I

Christian (41:27):
was there by myself. My nearest family member was in
Denver. I was in St. Louis. Istarted, like, kind of freaking
out.
I think, man, my life might beover. I was, like, images of my
life are going through my head.It's like, did I take risk? Did
I live a good life? You know,did I matter?
And, you know, I started crying,like, silently crying. The
doctor noticed me, and he saidsomething that I'll never

(41:50):
forget. He said it kind ofdismissed away, like, oh, don't
worry. I see this all the time.That's what he told me.
And I immediately snapped out ofmy feeling sorry for myself
state because it kinda pissed meoff. And I'm like, you know
what? I don't see this all thetime. This is a first for me.
Oh, yeah.
So I think he was trying to be apathetic, but, again, he was

(42:12):
looking at from I'm the doctor.This is a patient versus this is
a fellow human being I just gavesome pretty crappy news to. You
know, if I looked at it throughthat lens, it would have been a
different scenario.

Justin (42:24):
Let me throw some different words and tell me how
this would have landed with you.I'm your doctor. And I said,
Christian, don't worry. I solvethis problem all the time. Would
that have been a better message?

Christian (42:34):
I would have liked the of course. Yeah.

Justin (42:36):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we're back to
communication. Right?
But it's like, we can presentthis stuff in so many different
ways. And, yeah, what he did waskind of isolate you. Right?
Mhmm. Yeah.
I see. When I

Bryan (42:52):
meet with clients, I always have to remind myself
that, you know, I sell ITservices every day. I transition
companies to our services everymonth. But this might be the
first time they've ever boughtthis type of service or they've
ever had to make thistransition, And it's scary for
them. Like changing IT providersis probably one of the scariest

(43:15):
things a business owner can dobecause we literally have the
keys to the castle. Right.

Justin (43:19):
And

Bryan (43:19):
so this isn't a small thing for them. This is a huge
thing for them. Right? It's it'stheir entire business that
they're putting in our hands.And so I don't think a lot of IT
providers recognize just how bigof a move it is to make that
change, and they don't have theempathy that comes that's needed
to make sure that theyunderstand that.

Justin (43:37):
Plus you have to

Christian (43:37):
you have to help them with that change because if you
have the empathy because, youknow, like, they're probably
thinking, like, what if I makethe wrong decision?

Bryan (43:45):
Mhmm.

Justin (43:45):
Right?

Christian (43:45):
And how do you how do you help them understand it, you
know, that they are making theright decision? That that's
where this this stuff tiestogether. Right?

Bryan (43:53):
Yeah. I actually tell them that. I'm like, hey, this
is this is scary. I understandyou're probably thinking in the
back of your head like I'm gonnamake a wrong decision. I'm gonna
I'm gonna mess this up.
Everybody's gonna look at melike I'm I'm an idiot for making
this decision and, you know,that could be pretty stressful.
And then I offer them, like,obviously, like, here. Here's
our we we have a thirty ninetyday money back guarantee. So if

(44:14):
you made the wrong decision, youcan back out. No harm, no foul,
get your money all back, thatkind of thing, just to put their
mind at ease.
Right? Because I know once theywork with us, they'll never
they'll never think that. Butbefore, they don't know. They
have no idea who I am and andwhether I'm gonna hold true to
my word.

Justin (44:29):
Yeah. So I'm I'm curious, Christian. Did was the
doctor able to kinda salvagethat situation? Or I mean

Bryan (44:35):
Good point.

Justin (44:36):
How did that go?

Christian (44:38):
After he said that, he just kinda half drive
responded to him. He, didn't saymuch more and walked away. So
no. No. No.
No.

Justin (44:48):
He just left in a panic.

Christian (44:50):
He just left me sitting there saying, well, I
think you said, well, nurse willbe with you shortly. That was
it. You know?

Justin (44:56):
So safe to assume this problem has been resolved.
You've you've found a way to,not worry about dying every
minute of every day?

Christian (45:05):
Yeah. I took blood thinners for a year and decided
to screw that and stop takingblood thinners and get all my
blood work done and get aDoppler ultrasound on my leg to
make sure there's no more clotsand, just reclaim my health.

Bryan (45:17):
Nice.

Christian (45:17):
So I'm not taking blood thinners. I've reclaimed
my health after, you know, ayear of depression, sitting on
the couch doing nothing becauseI was told I couldn't I couldn't
run. I couldn't

Justin (45:27):
Oh, really?

Christian (45:27):
I couldn't fly. I couldn't sit in the hot tub. I I
couldn't anything I wanted to dothat I used to do, I I couldn't
do anymore.

Justin (45:34):
Oh my god. I was

Christian (45:36):
like, I gotta figure a way out of this scenario. At
first, I was grateful for beingalive, but then I felt paged.

Justin (45:41):
And, like Yeah. Because are you really alive at that
point? You know? It's like, I'mhere. I'm drawing breath.
But

Christian (45:46):
You're existing, but not, you

Justin (45:47):
know Yeah.

Christian (45:48):
Yeah. Surviving, not thriving as some people would
say. Yeah.

Justin (45:51):
Correct. Wow. Okay. Yeah. Empathy is a big one.
This I'm I'm just I threw alittle note in here for myself.
One thing that I observed, I'mcurious what you guys observed,
but when, you know, customerservice has always been
something that we talk about inbusiness. You've got variations
on the customer is always right.That can be good or bad. It can

(46:13):
almost turn into abusivesituations.
But, I think generally speaking,businesses had some genuine
empathy concern for theircustomers, their clients, their
patients until COVID hit. I sawa huge drop off of empathy when
we shut this planet off for ayear or two years or whatever it

(46:33):
was. What do you guys thinkabout that?

Christian (46:37):
I I agree a % because you're we're taught to to
socially distance ourselves fromeverybody and and wear a mask
and yeah. I I agree. And I Ithink I don't think we've quite
recovered from that either.

Justin (46:50):
No. I yeah. I I still just see a general lack of give
a shit in in business, you know.And I mean, as stupid as going
to fast food drive through, youknow. Mhmm.
Like, I've had them not evenlook up. They breach their hand
out the window for my card, andthey're looking the other
direction talking to somebodyelse. They take my card. They
drop it, handing it back to me.I mean, it's just like, where is

(47:14):
this, human connection that thatI think we all need?

Bryan (47:17):
So That's probably going back to monotasking, though.
Right? They're trying to domultiple things

Justin (47:21):
at the

Bryan (47:21):
same time, and it it's making you feel like they don't
give a crap about you and whoyou are. But Right.

Christian (47:27):
And you're you're forced to give them a tip now
too.

Justin (47:29):
Oh my god.

Bryan (47:30):
I know. Like my best experiences at a drive thru is
when they look me dead in theeye, and they're like, have a
great day. And I'm like, jeez.Like, I could tell they're
actually talking to me. They'renot just saying a script.
Right? Or maybe they are, and Ijust don't like things. But, you
know, like it's yeah.

Justin (47:45):
Alright. So I think we gotta get that one back. That's
that's, yeah, empathy'sempathy's big and, but Not as

Bryan (47:52):
good as that last one. That last one is my favorite.

Justin (47:55):
I was just gonna say, now we're gonna bring this home
for Brian. Christian, you don'tknow this, but every every week,
Brian signs off talking aboutthis. So

Christian (48:04):
Does he

Bryan (48:04):
Yeah. Yeah. So better. Do the motto in the office.

Justin (48:07):
We're gonna do this a little bit different. Brian, I
want you to talk about that. Andthen, Christian, I want you to,
to bring that point home. BrianSure. Take away Kaizen.

Bryan (48:17):
Kaizen. Yeah. So it's, I I can't remember what, what,
background that that word comesfrom. I think it's Japanese.
Mhmm.
And, but it's essentially theart of continuous improvement.
I'm a big fan of it. Internally,we have a, like an internal
motto is is or an internal whyis, you know, helping our
ourselves, our our peers, ourcustomers, and the communities

(48:41):
we live in become 1% better,becoming their greatest of all
time. Not becoming the greatestof all time, becoming their own
greatest of all time. So, youknow, for the last year, I've
been, you know, exercising.
Lots lots and lots of weight,you know, learning all sorts of
new new things by listening topodcasts, listening to to, also

(49:03):
or reading all sorts of books.And and I've we've taken that I
don't wanna say I because it'sthe entire the entire group.
We've taken that as sort of our,underlining why in the business
as to what why we exist, and weexist to help other people, in
our communities and and thebusinesses around us. And the
way that we do that is just bylooking for ways to get a little

(49:25):
bit better, and we're nevergonna become perfect. We're
never gonna be the best becausethere's always gonna be somebody
out there who's slightly betterthan you.
And we're not worried aboutthem. We're not worried about,
you know, like other people inour competition and what they're
doing. What can we do to helpeach other and help our peers
just become 1% better? Whatprocess can I tweak? What can I

(49:46):
learn from where I failedyesterday and get better today?
And and I'm obviously happy, tohear Christian, talk about a
little bit about, Kaizen fromthe context of his book. So I'm
gonna shut up now, pass thefloor over to Christian who's
who's our welcome to guest here.

Christian (50:05):
Well, thanks, Brian. I think you have a great,
philosophy And for the contextof my book and what I'm trying
to emphasize with Kaizen isprogress is incremental and a
lot of people think with any ofthese steps like monotasking
that it's a light switch. I'mgoing to master it one day and

(50:28):
then if they don't, they giveup. So when you adopt the
philosophy of Kaizen, that meansyou understand it's a journey
And as long as you're makingthose small improvements, like
you mentioned, Brian, that'sthat's what matters. Yeah.
And you may actually get worseat something before you get
better. Like Tiger Woods, whenhe was learning his golf swing

(50:49):
because he was trying to getbetter, he actually got worse
for a while before he got himbetter. But he he kept thinking,
hold on to vision. Like, as longas I'm making these steps, I'm
gonna get better. Right?
So it's it gives you the courageto take the first step. A lot of
people are afraid to take thefirst step because they think
they have to master somethingall at once. But mastery is like
this destination that you neverquite reach. You know, it's it's

(51:12):
a journey that matters andKaizen gives you that confidence
to take the first step and tostick with

Bryan (51:19):
it. I like I like the analogy used that, you know,
sometimes you might have to getworse to get better. And, I like
to use the example of, listen,if I'm cleaning my closet, I
gotta make a hell of a mess inmy my bedroom in order to clean
that. Everything's gotta comeout. Now it's a disaster, and I
have ADHD, so it stays adisaster for a lot longer than
it should.
But then then you incrementally,like, put everything back in,

(51:40):
and and you and now all of asudden at the end of the whole
thing, you're better. But youdid have to take a few steps
backwards to get that thatbetter result. But you had the
vision and the foresight toknow, like, hey, this is the end
result, and and it's gonna takesmall increments to get there.

Justin (51:55):
You know, as we And there is

Bryan (51:56):
no end. Sorry. There is no end result. It's just, like,
it's it's Right. An ongoingthing.
Right? Because I'll probablypull things out of the closet
and then, you know, now I gottaput them back in. And with IT,
you know, there's no such thingas done with cybersecurity. The
bad guys aren't gonna be like,oh, Brian, put a firewall in.
Dang it.
Nah. I may as well move to thenext client. No. They're going
like, how else could I get in?How can I improve?
How can I get better at atbecoming a better criminal? And,

(52:19):
it's it it it so it's a cat andmouse game. Right? They're
always Mhmm. Getting 1% better,and we gotta be 1% better too.

Justin (52:26):
And hopefully, we we beat them to the punch. Yeah.
And and, you know, we've we'vetalked about this before. We all
have our own versions of this,but, you know, this is how I
approach compliance. I you know,I whatever with my clients,
whichever version of the ofcompliance we're going to adopt,
I have it broken down intopieces, and we start with the

(52:48):
absolute basics in quarter one.
In quarter two, we're gonnajust, you know, hit the next,
you know, move move to differenttechnologies, different
protections, and then we movemove into a process of hardening
those, you know, once once we dohave the basics in place and and
reevaluating because theychange. You know, every
framework has a a revision toit. You know? It's CMMC version

(53:09):
one and CMMC version two. We'vegot CIS eight, then we got CIS
8.1.
You know? It's just like it'salways changing. And so this we
do have to continuously improve.I think also and this is kind of
off topic maybe, but we'recoming off of the first of the
year where we're Right. Ashumans, we wanna get better, and
and we look for these landmarks,these milestones, or whatever

(53:31):
that we can use as, like, I'mnot gonna I'm gonna drink myself
stupid today, but tomorrow,because it's January 1, I'm
stopping.
I'm never gonna drink again, orI'm I'm gonna hit my diet. I'm
gonna eat that apple pie rightnow, the whole thing myself. But
January 1, that's it. I'm nevergonna eat another apple pie
again for the rest of rest of mylife. Never works.
Never works. But, you know, Imentioned I'm gonna humble brag

(53:52):
a minute. I am trying to getback into running marathons.
I've ran five. It's been severalyears.
I'm out of shape. And so I didset a goal for myself. It wasn't
necessarily a New Year'sresolution, but it did coincide
with the beginning of the year.I'm I'm training for Chicago,
which is in October. So I've gotquite a bit of time to do it,
but, you know, if if and,Christian, this will shock you,

(54:12):
but, if you wanna train for amarathon, you have to run a lot
of miles.
So,

Christian (54:19):
it starts with, like, the the first step, though.
Right?

Justin (54:22):
Well and, you know, there's a there's a program that
I love. It's called couch tofive k Yeah. Which which takes,
you know, the proverbial couchsitter potato chip eater TV
watch and never done anythingto, getting up and just taking a
few steps, you know, and it itis. It's just like a few
minutes, and it's not even arun. It's just go out and walk.
And then you go out and youwalk, and then you run for a

(54:43):
second, and then you walk, andthen you run for a second, and
then you walk, and then you runfor a second, and then you walk,
and then you run for a second,and then you walk. You know, and
you just make these gradualcontinual improvements. So along
with this marathon goal, I alsohave there's a program called,
it's called Run the Edge as theorganization, but they every
year, they take that the number.So it's 2,025 year or sorry.
2,025 miles in 2025.

(55:07):
Oh, wow. And so by the end ofthe year, I I should have
completed 2,025 miles. Now I Idon't love this is too many
details. You can walk and youcan run. You can actually do a
lot of other things, which Idon't love.
But, so it's a combination. Andwhen I started this, the first
thing I did is, like, I divideit. I do some math, and I'm
like, well, that's six miles aday every day for three hundred

(55:27):
and sixty five days. That was mytarget, and then I got real. I'm
like, that's stupid.
Hey. I'm not gonna do that. B.If I do, I'm going to injure
out. % chance I'm gonna injure,and I won't be able to complete
it.
And so then I built a plan thatstarts off very mild, very easy,
you know, 15 miles this week,and then we increase by 10%, and

(55:48):
we build to a higher weeklymileage that will get me to the
end goal, by the end of the endof the year. So, you know,
whether it's Ironmans,marathons, you know, within your
business, cybersecurity, this isa concept that I think is if if
we don't do this, the humanbrain is going to fight against

(56:09):
us, and we're not gonna getanything done. Agreed?

Christian (56:11):
That's agreed.

Justin (56:13):
So I mean, the I I don't know if this is a save your best
for last, but I definitely thinkit applies that way.

Bryan (56:21):
Alright. Argument's here.

Justin (56:24):
Christian, tell me, I think I think we've touched on
most oh, and we are we're we'reout of time, guys. Jeez. I got
so so excited about that that Iran us right out of time. So,
let's just take a minute. Thankyou.
Thank you first of all for beinghere. Really, really appreciate
your time. I know you're busy.You've got a lot going on. I I

(56:46):
do like to wrap these up with akey takeaway.
So, Brian, I'm gonna go first toyou, and then, Christian, if
you'll just take a second and,you know, number one advice you
have to give the audience. Andthen I'm gonna go ahead and wrap
things up and we will be donefor the week. Brian, go.

Bryan (57:00):
I think my key takeaway is just those that seven step
secure methodology is really,it's really resonated with me.
And, I guess to the listeningaudience, if, if you want
somebody who will be your guidein your journey, to, helping you
with your technology, whetherthat is to improve your

(57:23):
operational efficiency usingtechnology or securing your
environment from all the badguys that are out there. Give me
a shout. I'm happy to to workwith you, and, treat your treat
treat it as a journey goingthrough and making sure all
these are done. And, if you'relooking for someone to help you
out with that, I'm your guy.

Justin (57:44):
Alright. Christian.

Christian (57:46):
I would say as a business as a business owner,
it's important to take ownershipover cybersecurity just like you
have to take ownership oversales or marketing or accounting
and find a firm that as Brianalluded to will guide you and
you're the hero of the storywhere they'll help you, and you
can communicate with them well.There there are lots of firms

(58:09):
out there. It may take a littlebit of effort, but a firm that's
trying to be the hero and talkover your head and tell you how
smart they are is not really whoyou wanna work with.

Justin (58:18):
Absolutely. And my takeaway, we didn't get to it
actually. We ran out of time.I'm a culture guy. I I really
wanted to dive in more toculture because and all of this
fits plays into building theright culture.
But we we have to lead our teamin a way that we are all
fighting the same battle thesame way at the same time. And I
really do believe that that, youknow, kind of plays back into
the title of the root cause.It's us, the solution. It's us.

(58:43):
Right?
Is that is that fair, Christian?

Christian (58:45):
Yes.

Bryan (58:46):
Alright, guys. We're gonna wrap for

Justin (58:48):
this week. Unhacked.live is where you will find the
recording, the social medialinks, and all of our contact
information. That said,Christian Espinosa dot com is
how you will find Christiandirectly. So look him up. He's
got courses on his website.
You can take, tons ofinformation, keynote speaker,
the whole show. Look Christianup. Give him a call, and and,
let him help you out withwhatever you've got going on in

(59:10):
your life because he seems tohave done just about everything.
Christian, thank you. Thank you.
Thank you for being here. Reallyenjoyed this, and hopefully we
can stay in touch. Brian, asalways, thank you guys. Take
care. We'll see you next week.