Ep. 8 - Productive Conflict with Shawn MacDonell

Shawn MacDonell shares his unconventional story of saying yes to experiences from sports coaching, to facilitating tools for teaching in Columbia, to branding strategy, to professional coaching, to founding a creative agency.

He speaks to how all of these offered him the experience of not being afraid of conflict and instead reframing it to curiosity and exploration. To understand why people make certain decisions and encourage them to learn to ask the same questions.

In episode 8 he shares with us how to reframe conflict from being a dirty word, the importance of believing in yourself to try new things, how illusive giving good feedback actually is through our communication pitfalls, and more.

Tune in to hear some truth bombs from the ultimate holder of the mirror and reflect along on your own beliefs and whether your current actions and practices are holding you back.

Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
I think conflict's a dirty word.

(00:01):
I think people are shy away fromconflict, and we have conflict
studies and conflict management,and we study all this stuff, and
it's like, wait, what?
How to have an argument?
Is that what's happening?
You know, and I think we learnthat from like shitty politics,
like of this backstabbing stuff.
And I'm like, no, no, we canhave, we can disagree.
Nobody, we don't have todisagree.

(00:23):
We don't have to agree oneverything ever, always.
Like, you know, so I'm all forit.
I'm like, hey, conflicts in theworkplace means the workplace is
going to grow probably.

SPEAKER_02 (00:41):
Hello and welcome to the Unicorn Leadership Podcast.
My name is Fahad Al-Hattab andthis is where we interview
leaders on how they createhigh-performing teams, how they
create high-performing culturesand how they have become more
effective managers and leaders.
Our goal is to bring you theinsights, the tools, the
different methods and frameworksthat they've had to try and the

(01:05):
mistakes that they've made sothat you can learn from them and
you don't have to make themyourself in your leadership
practice as you build a team andyou build your startup.
This podcast is brought to youby Unicorn Labs, where we help
develop managers into leadersthat create high-performing
teams that help businessesscale.
You can check us out atunicornlabs.ca.

(01:25):
And today, I'm excited to bringyou Sean McDonnell.
He's the founder of CreativeVision.
He's actually a really longtimefriend and mentor of mine, which
makes it a lot more exciting tospeak.
It was a ton of fun to hear hisstories on his pod.
He considers himself anddescribes himself at one point
in his career as a professionalass kicker, which I think pairs

(01:48):
really well to his approach onconflict and difficult
conversations.
And that's what today is reallyall about.
That's what today's episode isabout.
How do we lean into courageousconversations?
I'm so excited for you to listento this episode because Sean's
ability to not shy away fromconflict because he reframed his
views on feedback.
He shares a great wisdom on howothers can follow his lead in

(02:11):
their approach and ultimatelypull people out and pull them
into a growth mindset due tothese conversations.
See, I share a little story formyself on when I realized the
importance of embracing conflictin a team.
I was president of my studentunion in my university.
I went to Carleton University.

(02:32):
I was president of the studentunion there.
And, you know, we were, the yearof the student union, there was
a federal election happening.
and we wanted to encouragestudents to vote and so we had
come up with all these differentideas and campaigns to actually
get students out to vote Iremember sitting down with my
team and we were there anddifferent people were saying all

(02:53):
we should do we should have adebate on campus like that's a
great idea we should do allthese posters on campus great we
should do some marketing onlineto encourage students to vote
all these different ideas it wasgreat and then Two folks who
were on our team, one of ourfriends, Maddie Adams, and
another one, Abel Hazon, whoboth came up with the idea and

(03:15):
said, hey, I think...
I think we should try and do amusic video to encourage
students to vote.
I remember thinking, I'm like,hey, that's weird.
Like, what do you mean musicvideo?
No, we can do a rap.
We can do a music video.
We can do a whole parody.
We can make a video, a fun videothat will engage students who

(03:37):
don't typically want to come todebates or get the conversation
going about voting and theimportance of voting.
I was a bit hesitant, but I waslike, you know what?
This is going to be a fun idea.
This is cool.
All right, sure.
hide out.
So we took Maddie and Abel'slead and we kind of dove into
it.
And so we had we had startedcoming up with different

(03:59):
creative ideas.
And we wanted to remix a song.
And so we found the song, I'm ona boat, which I'm sure many of
you know, Lonely Island song,I'm on a boat.
And we remixed it to, I'm gonnavote.
I know genius, right?
So we remixed the song.
They ended up writing all thislyrics on about voting and
showing up to vote.

(04:21):
We had a friend who had astudio.
So we went to record it there.
And we had a friend who had anumber of different video
cameras.
So we wanted to make a wholemusic video, we got backup
dancers, all our friends.
We even had a little iPhonetaped to a stick so that we can
get like a drone shot.
We didn't have a drone, we get adrone shot.
And we wanted to really copyframe per frame the I'm on a

(04:46):
boat kind of video and reallymake that go viral.
And we thought this is gonnablow up, this is gonna go viral,
this is gonna be amazing.
And so we created a video and weSend it out.
And we put it on YouTube.
We put it on Facebook at thetime.
And we were so excited becausewe were like, this is going to

(05:08):
blow up.
This is going to be amazing.
And within two days, we had over60,000 views on YouTube.
And it was blowing up.
We had CBC contacted us, Globeand Mail, Ottawa Citizen.
We had all these differentnewspapers.
Everyone in the schoolessentially had seen the video

(05:29):
in two days.
But the article headline...
We got on Vice News.
We even got an article on ViceNews.
And the article headline on ViceNews was Worst Canadian Music
Video in History.
We were trending on Reddit,subreddit cringe.

(05:52):
People absolutely...
A lot of people absolutely hatedthe video and thought it was
absolutely cringy.
I mean, to us, it was a parody,but I think a lot of students
thought it was real.
And here we were, the leaders ofthe student union on camera
having this parody.
Now, here's the part I didn'ttell you.
We actually, you know, the musicvideo, Lonely Island, I'm on a

(06:16):
boat, is filled with profanity.
Like every third word is a swearword.
And we thought, well, we'reuniversity students.
We can make our own decisions.
We filled our song withprofanity.
profanity.
So it was like, motherfucker,I'm gonna vote.
Look at me, bitch.
It's just like, it's still onYouTube.
We had taken it down for awhile.
And actually, more recently, Ihad re-uploaded it because it

(06:36):
was a story we started to tell.
But here's what was interesting.
When all the negative feedbackstarted coming in, I had a
student call me at our officeand say, Fahad, you lowered the
value of my Carleton degreebecause of this video.
Some people really didn't likeit.
Well, I was kind of taken back Ithought hey this was a good idea
this was a fun video this iscute like a lot of humor it'll

(06:59):
engage a lot of students but thethe backlash seemed so much and
and something I didn't predictso we called a team meeting we
got everyone together all yourexecutives all of the student
elected and I said guys what doyou think we should do should we
remove this video um and and howdo we react to this right like
we thought we were doingsomething okay but but we cut

(07:20):
all this negative feedback and afew members spoke up and said,
yeah, Fahad, I didn't think itwas a good idea in the first
place.
Another person spoke up andsaid, yeah, I think we should
remove it.
I think it's a bit offensive.
I don't know.
It's not a good look.
And I was really surprisedbecause I was like, well, what
do you mean?

(07:40):
Well, you didn't say anything inthe first place.
You knew this idea washappening.
Why didn't you say anything?
And one of them looked at me andsaid, Fahad, you don't always
create the space for us todisagree with you.
And that moment was powerful forme.
He said, you don't always createthe space for us to disagree
with you.

(08:02):
I think a lot of managers and alot of leaders who have really
strong personalities, who haveideas, who want to drive the
boat forward, who want to driveinnovation forward, we don't
realize that the silence we'regetting at times from our team
is the thing that's going to eataway and kill us.

(08:23):
It's going to kill ourinnovation.
It's going to kill our progress.
Ed Catmull has this fun line.
He says, if there's more truthat the water cooler than there
is in your boardrooms, thenyou've got a problem.
If we're not actively creatingspace for people to embrace

(08:44):
conflict and debate, then we'renot building a high-performing
team.
See, I think I thought, well, Iasked people's opinions.
What do you guys think aboutthis music video?
And just because I asked foropinions and didn't hear
anything back, I thought, okay,you're fine with it.
You're cool with it.
But I didn't realize that therewas dissenting opinions that

(09:05):
were being held back and Ididn't pull them out.
I didn't give them space for it.
And I think our relationshipwith conflict is going to be a
big determinant on that.
Today in this episode, we'regoing to discuss how Sean's
journey and his lessons came toshape his take in philosophy on
conflict, how it relates tocoaching leaders and the coach

(09:27):
approach that we talk about, howultimately leaders are mirrors
for their team, and thatleadership by example becomes so
important, and how important itis to take personalized
communication approaches whenwe're giving feedback, when
we're embracing conflict andwe're creating space for that.
And so as I went through mylesson with my team and

(09:49):
understanding the importance ofembracing conflict and giving
space and creating that, Seangoes through some of his own
lessons.
So let's cut away here to hear alittle bit of Sean's experience
when he was coaching rugby andone of the things that he came
to.

SPEAKER_01 (10:04):
athlete and saying like how instead of me just
giving him negative feedback Iwas like well what what did you
see out there on the fieldbecause like what he did was not
the thing I wanted him to dowhich you know is totally like
could have been a conflict but Iwas like but what did you see or
hear that made you do that andthe thing that happened for me

(10:26):
was it was a young athlete and Iwas a young coach and the
athlete really didn't have ananswer and And I was like, okay,
I need you to be a thinkingathlete.
So we need to have theseconflict and these discussions,
because I don't want you to justdo the rote thing.
And then that trickled intoeverybody that's ever worked for

(10:47):
me.

SPEAKER_02 (10:48):
And so in this episode, Sean is going to share
some of those stories, share hisunconventional story of saying
yes to experiences from sportscoaching to facilitating tools
to teaching in Columbia tobranding strategy to
professional coaching andfinding a creative agency.
He speaks to how all of thesehave offered him the experience

(11:08):
of not being afraid of conflict,but instead reframing it as
curiosity and exploration.
And that's what I love is that Idon't, just disagree with you.
I'm curious as to why Idisagree.
I'm curious as to what you haveto say.
I'm a detective in that process.
And to understand why peoplemake certain decisions and he
encourages them to ask the samequestions and he asks to learn

(11:30):
more about people.
This is episode eight for us.
He's going to share how toreframe conflict from a dirty
word to a word that you want toembrace, that you want to
believe in yourself, in tryingnew things, in having courageous
conversations So tune in to hearsome fun truth bombs from the
ultimate holder of the mirrorand reflect on along your own

(11:55):
beliefs and whether your currentactions and practices are the
ones that are holding you back.
Let's dive into the episode.
All right, Sean, welcome to ourUnicorn Leaders podcast.

(12:15):
I'm excited to have you on this.
We have a ton of phenomenalconversations when you and I
just, you know, whether we'replanning work like the podcast
or whether we're doing some ofour own crazy projects.
We've done work together forover a decade now from youth
empowerment work and leadershipwork to even, you know, one of
my earlier startups, Frank is aphone, where you played a big

(12:39):
role on that.
So Sean, I'm really excited tohave you on this podcast with us
because I know we're going tohave a fun conversation.
And today's theme is all aboutproductive conflict.
It's all about feedback.
It's all about candor.
It's all about making sure thatwe engage in these discussions.
And I know you've got somereally interesting opinions on

(13:00):
this and I want to dive us rightinto it.
So let's dive with opening upthe big question as we always
do.
What is your take on conflict inthe workplace.

SPEAKER_01 (13:11):
My take, well, thank you so much for having me.
It's like super exciting to behere.
And my take always is like, Iactually, I love conflict.
I think it's the best thing.
That's like, please give me moreconflict.
I want to hear thoughts andopinions.
And as someone who's likeemployed people for 18 years and
been coaching sports, it's like,I don't want you to agree with

(13:34):
me.
I want you to challenge me sothat we can all grow.
And it's like, I don't think youcan grow if we don't have...
healthy ways to manage that andlike healthy ways to have
conflict.
I don't think, I thinkconflict's a dirty word.
I think people are like shy awayfrom conflict and we have like
conflict studies and conflictmanagement.
We study all this stuff and it'slike, it's like, wait, what?

(13:56):
Like how to have an argument?
Is that what's happening?
Like.
You know, and I think we learnthat from, like, shitty
politics, like, of thisbackstabbing stuff.
And I'm like, no, no, we canhave, we can disagree.
Nobody, we don't have todisagree, we don't have to agree
on everything, ever, always.
Like, you know, so I'm all forit.
I'm like, hey, conflicts in theworkplace means the workplace is

(14:17):
going to grow, probably.

SPEAKER_02 (14:19):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, if you bring togetherextremely talented, smart people
with trying to solve a complexproblem, they're not supposed to
agree.
You get really smart people witha big problem.
How do we expect them to agree?
And why is that the case?
So let's dive into a little bitof that because you've got quite

(14:42):
a bit of experience from sportscoaching to running your own
agency to team development thatyou do.
Tell me a little bit about whereyour philosophies on conflict
developed.

SPEAKER_01 (14:56):
so early early on I think anything that's happened
to me in my life it's beenthrough sports and I started
coaching sports I'll try to keepthis really brief but I tried to
coach I started coaching sportsreally early on through conflict
actually we had virtual at theschool that I was at which meant
like school was over at whatevertime it was 305 that meant like

(15:20):
everybody got in the bus go hometeachers get out of here no
extracurriculars and I rememberI was a really quiet kid up
until that point but at thatpoint I was like no way this is
crazy like what do you meanthere's no extra school sports
like that's that's nuts I waslike you know you've just made
it through what about all thegrade seven and eight year old
grade seven and grade eightsthat have like made it to the

(15:41):
school and like in elementaryschool you don't really have a
team right like you make theteam you play the sport the
season's over like there's noreal team dynamic there and I
was like this is nuts so Iremember speaking up and like
being really mad about it and Iwas talking to the athletics
director at our high schoolactually who happened to just
because I grew up in a smalltown happened to be my neighbor

(16:04):
and I was like this is frigginlame and he was like well
teachers don't have to be theonly ones that can coach you can
coach Or you can get anybodyfrom the community.
And I was like, well, who wouldthat be?
And he was like, well, youshould do it.
And I was like, okay, but like,where do we do it?
And so he was like, I'm going tohelp you.
Like, I'm going to give you allthe plans, although you can't
tell anybody.
And then I had my first bout ofconflict.

(16:26):
And it's fully, I fully rememberall of this, actually, with the
principal, who was like, No, thegates are closed to the school.
You can't use the land topractice.
And I was like, that'sridiculous.
That doesn't make any sense tome.
The soccer field that I wascoaching on was actually...
part of the recreationassociation and actually not

(16:49):
even the high school so I wentto them back and forth and then
I felt very empowered actuallyin this conflict to cut the lock
and so I cut the lock as like a15 year old I cut the lock and
opened the gate and we had thisdiscussion and I remember the
principal being really mad at meand I remember having this back

(17:12):
and forth but he actuallytreated me like a human being
and Like we had, we were able tohave a conversation in this,
like, it wasn't comfortable, youknow, and it was my first
realization.
And then like sports just keptpushing me and kept teaching me
things.
And I think really, for me,developing conflict is okay.
came from watching a lot ofmovies and like watching sports

(17:33):
as a kid and seeing like thetypical coach was supposed to be
someone that was like kickingwater bottles and smashing like
playbooks and like throwing shitand it's like

SPEAKER_02 (17:44):
gotta break the clipboard right like

SPEAKER_01 (17:46):
yeah yeah yeah you gotta break it across your knee
you gotta like pull out yourhair and yell and be angry and I
I totally was like yeah thismakes sense to me and that's how
we like motivate people and whenthere's problems like you're
supposed to yell about it Andthen over time, I remember as I
grew up and grew up as a coach,and then as I was opening up a

(18:08):
business, which happened kind ofsimultaneously while I was doing
some of this stuff, somebodysaid to me, or I think it was
Simon Sinek that I was watching,and he was like, why?
And I remember that why questionbeing in there, and then I
remember that filtering into mybrain.
And I remember sitting with anathlete and saying like, Instead

(18:30):
of me just giving him negativefeedback, I was like, well, what
did you see out there on thefield?
Because what he did was not thething I wanted him to do, which
could have been a conflict.
But I was like, but what did yousee or hear that made you do
that?
And the thing that happened forme was it was a young athlete
and I was the young coach.

(18:52):
And the athlete really didn'thave an answer.
And I was like, okay, I need youto be a thinking athlete.
So we need to have theseconflict and these discussions,
because I don't want you to justdo the rote thing.
And then that trickled intoeverybody that's ever worked for
me.
I'm like, well, how come you didit that way?

(19:13):
And I was curious.
I've like, I changed my brainfrom being mad angry boss which
like you know and even even bossis like in leaders and managers
on tv right like what's theimage of always like ah you're
slamming the phone and makingthe deals and you know and
that's supposed to be the bossright and it's like why is that

(19:34):
the boss like that that seemscrazy and and you're gonna have
a lot of heart attacks you knowfor problems that aren't
probably big problems and it'slike can we not just have
conversations with people andand for sure we're not going to
agree like oh my god i'veemployed hundreds of people over
the years and i've had hundredsof athletes and i'm like oh my

(19:56):
god if every single one of themagreed with me that that would
be something wrong with theworld right like we don't need
more of me out there that's oneis enough

SPEAKER_02 (20:08):
i'm sure we could do with with another one or two you
know that's um maybe maybe oneor two more um You know, what I
find so interesting, Sean, asyou share that, I think it's
very powerful hearing you inyour youth, you know, at the age
of 15, finding agency inyourself too, right?
Like that sort of, hey, theadults aren't always right

(20:32):
moment, you know?
Like you're wrong and you knowwhat?
I'm going to learn to speak upfor myself.
I think is actually something wewant to also teach employees and
staff members that like, hey,your managers are not always
right.
And we might just do thingsbecause this is just the way
it's been done or we figured itout one time and we kept on

(20:53):
doing it this way.
Right.
And nobody's ever challenged it.
And I think that that agency.
mixed with willing to debate theexisting idea is what we call
conflict but really it's justfinding your voice and I really
like how you place it becausethat's kind of and even your
shift it was like shifting fromconflict with my you know

(21:15):
students or the people I'mcoaching to like a discovery
like you're a detective why areyou doing this right and I like
that because as you saidconflict is a dirty word but I
think if you reframe it in thosetwo pieces right finding one's
voice or seeing it as like adetective trying to figure out
why someone did something, youalready have a completely
different mindset in approachingconflict.

(21:38):
I really like that.

SPEAKER_01 (21:41):
Most times people don't know why they're doing the
thing.
That's what's empowering for meas a manager, as a coach, as a
leader.
I'm like, if I ask that questionand they don't have the answer,
then that's an awesomeopportunity for me as a leader,
as a coach, as a manager, as awhatever, to say, okay, great,
well, let's dive into that.
Let's talk about that a littlebit more because if you're not a
thinking athlete or a thinkingemployee or whatever, then what

(22:07):
value are you?
I want you to think.
I want everybody who works forme, they need to be
entrepreneurial.

SPEAKER_02 (22:14):
Yeah, yeah.
I love that.
I love that.
Now, Sean, we have a little bitof history, so I know a little
bit about your career journey,but maybe let's share a little
bit about that.
You've obviously been coachingsports for a very long time, but
you've also got a veryentrepreneurial kind of, I know

(22:35):
we used career journey, butcareer is maybe a more stagnant
word, and your entrepreneurialjourney has been many different
projects, but let's give thelisteners a little bit of a back
background.
I'll start us off.
You finished school, you wentinto computer science, and you
hated it and dropped it.
That's where the story I knowstarts, you

SPEAKER_01 (22:58):
know?
Yeah, that's where it allstarted, yeah, yeah.
And thank God, thank God I hatedit.
You know, now I'm where I am.
So yeah, so being in highschool, I think, and you know,
you know my thoughts about theschool system, but it's like,
it's there, but it's like, arewe helping people find their
things so like for me it wasalways like I was good at math I

(23:19):
was good at computers soeverybody pushed me towards that
and also we were at a time whenNortel which is like a local
technology company was blowingup and people were making
hundreds of thousands of dollarsmy cousin was in there and it
was like oh that seems alright Iguess I'll just go do that and I
was coming from a town of like1200 people and like 20,000 cows

(23:43):
so that gives you an idea whereI was coming from

SPEAKER_02 (23:46):
and people right

SPEAKER_01 (23:47):
and it was like oh my god like computer and
computers weren't really likenot everyone had a computer
unlike today um so it was kindof new and it was interesting so
I went down that path came downto Ottawa the big city uh you
know and um Yeah, I did computerengineering.
I hated it because of thesolitariness of it.

(24:11):
It was programmed from here tohere and then pass it off to the
next person.
And you don't know who the nextperson is.
So the thing that broke thecamel's back for me was, it
literally was a project that waslike...
your person B in group three andlike you're gonna code this many
lines to this many lines andthen when you're done you're

(24:33):
gonna put it in an envelope andyou're gonna stick it in a slot
and then the person whateverthree or four is gonna come and
they're gonna grab it and thenthey're gonna work on it and it
was like there's noconnectedness um so that's where
I was like alright I think I'mout I don't I don't wanna do
this but that's my life

SPEAKER_00 (24:49):
yeah

SPEAKER_01 (24:51):
and so I came back uh came back moved back to Shavo
um You know, I didn't know whatI was going to do.
A friend of mine said, oh, Iwish my kid could learn how to
read better.
And I was like, school sucks.
I could teach your kid how toread through baseball.
And two weeks later, I calledher up and I was like, I'm going
to do it.
And she's like, what are yougoing to do?
I was like, I don't know how I'mgoing to do it, but I'm going to

(25:13):
teach your kid how to readthrough baseball.
So we started with like 26baseballs, A to Z.
We started taking kids to thepark.
We threw in all the mandatoryreading because I was like,
nobody was excited about that,right?
Like these are six-year-olds,seven-year-olds.
They're not excited aboutreading.
whatever they're reading.
So they were excited aboutbaseball.
They were excited about sports.
These were kids that I totallyconnected with.

(25:34):
And I was like, great, let'sread far advanced past you.
So we were reading all kinds oflike little articles and we were
playing games and skip aheadmany months.
I'm back in Ottawa and there's afriend of mine and his aunt is
running an English for secondlanguage program with Colombian
students here.
And Colombian students arecoming up.

(25:54):
They're learning English.
And she knows what I've done.
And was like, hey, would you beinterested in helping run part
of this program?
And I, being me, said, yeah,duh, yes, of course.
And I loved it.
I can figure that out.
Yeah, I can do that.
I totally know what I'm doing.
And at the end of that program,the Colombian group came and

(26:18):
asked me, hey, would I bringmy...
company down to Columbia to helpwork on other projects and I was
like yeah of course and then Iquickly ran home and typed into
the computer how the fuck do youstart a company because I didn't
know what I was doing I didn'thave a company convinced two of
my friends to take a semesteroff but we went down to Columbia
we taught English as a secondlanguage and then kind of two

(26:41):
years of doing that kind ofthing and massaging what that
looked like we started teachingmath and geography and any
subject we could we wereteaching it in different ways
and really getting people'syoung people because they're
curious I think this is and thisis where I think you know the
school system really fails a lotof people is like and I think

(27:04):
workplaces also to a largerextent like we fail people
because they're curious and thenwe bash out their curiosity to
do it the way we want it done umyou know and that gets squashed
and you get afraid to make amistake because oh my god what
if i get graded and i have an for what if i what if i don't do
a good job on this projectthey're gonna fire me and it's

(27:26):
like why would they fire you whywouldn't they take the time to
encourage you you know so inthat process, uh, people were
like, wow, that's reallycreative.
Would you be interested indoing, uh, and this was at the
time when like YouTube was juststarting to come around.
So it was like, you know, wouldyou be interested in doing some
marketing or branding or helpingus with a strategy?
And I was like, yeah, of course.

(27:46):
Yes.
Duh.

SPEAKER_02 (27:48):
I have a company for that one too.

SPEAKER_01 (27:50):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sure.
Let's, let's do it.
Let's dive in.
I can do it.
I'm very creative and I hadn'treally thought of myself as
creative until people startedsaying that about me.
And Yeah, I'll believe you.
Let's go down that road.
That's

SPEAKER_02 (28:05):
so interesting.
Just if I can pick on that for asecond, Sean, because it is the
single word I associate withyou, right?
Yeah, Sean's like the creativeguy.
He's the most creative

SPEAKER_00 (28:16):
guy.

SPEAKER_02 (28:16):
It's just as far as I've known, right?
But it's wild, and I lovehearing that because I think
it's so good for everyone that'slistening.
It's just like you didn't evenassociate yourself with that
word when first getting started,right?
No.
Our leaders so many timesstruggle with that.
Don't associate with, oh, I'm aleader.
I'm a manager.
What does that mean?

(28:37):
How do I engage in that?
A total disassociation and thenkind of leaning into it.
Cool.
Keep going.
I'm loving this.

SPEAKER_01 (28:45):
No, no.
It's true.
I didn't really realize thatuntil people started saying
that.
And then I was like, yeah, I amand I do and I want to be.
And it was like, all right,cool.
So now we skip way ahead and I'mstudying psychology.
So I've left machines and nowNow I'm studying humans.
It's like go total opposite.
And people were like, wow, didyou ever feel like you wasted

(29:08):
time?
And I was like, absolutely not.
When I was doing the computerengineering, it was very much if
this, then that, like theengineering language.
which is 100% relatable toeverything I do today and
everything I was doing back thenof people like, if this, then
that, you know, and if this,then that, then this, then try

(29:30):
that, you know, and just keepgoing, right?
And it's like a perpetual cycleof that.
And I remember going in to do,or I had been approached to
apply for a marketing project.
And I was like, yeah, we'regoing to do it.
We're going to do this marketingproject.
And I was kind of scared, butalso I'm always just whatever.

(29:54):
So I was like, we're going to doit.
So I remember going into the pitand I remember thinking, I stood
in front of some folks and I waslike, Okay, all the people
outside, they have marketingdegrees.
I know nothing about marketing.

SPEAKER_00 (30:09):
It's

SPEAKER_01 (30:10):
a great way to start off.
I was like, I know nothing aboutmarketing, but I've been
studying humans, human behavior,and working with humans for a
very long time.
I know everything about people.
And I was like, they're allgoing to give you something
slightly different or, you know,similar, like, but it's slightly
different.
I am not going to even remotelytouch what they're going to do.

(30:32):
I want to go this way, you know?
And I remember the, one of theguys at the table was like, he
just said, finally, you know, itwas like something fresh,
interesting, good.
Right.
It was something new andshocking and, And yeah, so
that's been, and then now, yeah,so now Creative Vision's been
around for 18 years, which hasbeen a creative agency that has

(30:55):
had its toes in marketing,branding, anything creative,
we've kind of done it.
And I say we being, it couldhave been anywhere from like 23
full-time employees to probably40 like part-time contract folk
working on different things.
And the history just goes on andon.
And I've had my hands in 14other companies.

(31:16):
And I've coached everything fromrural little town soccer and
volleyball to national levelrugby.

SPEAKER_02 (31:24):
I love that.
That's so awesome.
Thank you, Sean, for sharingyour story with us.
No, genuinely, I think it'srefreshing and it's encouraging
and inspiring for many folks whoare...
I

SPEAKER_01 (31:39):
think it's the story of just saying yes a lot.
Believing.
I don't know.
I never believed in myself untilthis day.
It was John Petty who was like,hey, why don't you go coach this
team?
And I was like, Oh, I could dothat.
Maybe.
Like, and it was like one singleperson that said one thing that

(32:01):
like flipped a switch.
And then it was like a host of acouple other people that were
like, yeah, we do believe inyou.
Or yes, you can do that.
Or, you know, it was justlike...
It doesn't take much, you know?
And it was this, like, just sayyes idea that was, like, that
really has served me well.
Like, say yes to things.

(32:21):
I don't know, like, what's theworst that's going to happen,
right?
Like, just, yeah, okay, sure,we'll go to Columbia.
You know, and I didn't know whatwas going to happen.
Like, so what if it burns andfails?
Like, let's just try it.

SPEAKER_02 (32:32):
Let's just try it, yeah.
You know, and Sean, I see youtake this nudging coaching
approach to all of it.
do in life, with your staff,with your team.
Your style of conflict is, whydon't you try that?
Give that a go.
Here, try it.
Push it to hit.
Just put it out there.

(32:53):
See what happens.
It's that nudge that sometimespeople need.
You know what?
That's another, I think, reframeof feedback.
Today, talking about conflictand feedback.
That feedback that you gotsaying, hey, why don't you try
to do the team?
Hey, do you want to try to dofor me?
Just a little piece of feedback,and that's You took it and said,
yeah, you know what?

(33:14):
I'll try it.
I'll do it.
And you take that approach.
So maybe let me dive back intothat.
You've got a little bit of acoach approach to how you do
things.
You were a professional coach,executive coach, specifically a
professional ass kicker.
I think that was your title.
Tell me a little bit about thosedays.
Tell me about your professionalass kicking days and how that

(33:37):
shaped you as a manager and as aleader.

SPEAKER_01 (33:40):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, so I took everythingthat I was kind of doing in
sports and I had mixed it withbusiness.
Right.
And I've been doing it for awhile.
And I just started realizingthat friends and like friends of
friends started asking advice.
And I, you know, and we alwayswould go into that.
I always said yes.
So I was like, yeah, let's meet.
Let's chat.
I'll give you time.

(34:02):
And because I felt lucky becausepeople had always given me time.
So I was like, I'm going to,people have given me time.
I'm going to give you time totalk about this.
And it was like, when I startedout, I remember like being, I
don't know, almost nervousbecause I was young.
And I think that's where you andI have always related because I
was young when I started doingcoaching and they're like, how,

(34:24):
why are you 20 something tellingme a 40 something?
And I'm like, well, but if we goback, um, everybody has an
opinion and an idea and like theworld experience that you have
can impact your views, right?
Like I don't care if you're 50or 80 or 10.
I don't know what your life'sbeen like.

(34:44):
Maybe you have a ton ofinformation and knowledge that I
don't know and you probably do,you know?

SPEAKER_00 (34:48):
So

SPEAKER_01 (34:49):
I started coaching and working with these people
and it took a few times to likebelieve that I could even give
feedback to people.
Like I remember putting, puttingmy little sign up there and
working with some people and,and like working with peers, but
then starting to work withactually some peers, like aunts
and, uh, like older folks that,and they would come to me and I,

(35:12):
I would just kind of tell themmy story.
And I, I almost just let thembelieve in this, like the
ability to say yes and, and likejust asking and like I would
just prod little questions like,well, what do you like to do?
And I remember we dove reallydeeply into life maps and I just
want to talk about that for asecond because when I dropped

(35:33):
out of computer engineering, Idid every single one of those
retesting things or whateverthat would tell you.
Career tests.
Yeah, right?
So I did all of those.
I did every single one of them.
Do you want to know what everysingle one of them said to me in
the mail when I got the resultsand things?

SPEAKER_02 (35:51):
I feel like you're

SPEAKER_01 (35:51):
setting it up for a

SPEAKER_02 (35:54):
good computer science.

SPEAKER_01 (35:55):
Yeah, they all said I could be a computer fucking
engineer.
And I was like, I already didthat.
And I don't like it.
Because I was good at that.
And that was my aptitude.
But I had to really, the firsttime, and I don't even know...
This is something I don'tremember.
But it was like I sat down and Iactually was like, okay, I'm
going to draw out my life map.
Where did I start?
What were the highlights?
What are the lowlights?
And I remember doing thatactivity for myself and coming

(36:18):
up with like, well, I like beingsocial.
I like being with people.
I like being outdoors.
I like having my own time anddoing that kind of stuff.
And I remember challenging olderpeople to do that because they
would often come to me andthey'd be like, here's my
resume.
Here's my cover letter.
This is where I've worked.
I'm like, great.
I don't care about any of that.
I was like, tell me about you,the person.

(36:38):
And I remember specifically,there was this one woman, she
was in her 50s.
And she had been a mom her wholelife.
And she kind of had given up acareer in science to be a mom.
And now she was coming to me andthis started happening often.
It was like, all of these peoplethat just wanted me to tell them
like what, what to do you knowit was like just tell me what to

(37:01):
do and they wanted this likefeedback of like you must know
you're the guru like you knowand I'm like you know I don't
know

SPEAKER_02 (37:08):
all things

SPEAKER_01 (37:09):
right I don't know anything and I all I did was I
remember like sitting there andbeing like I am an excellent
Holder of the mirror.
And I was like.
This is my feedback for you.
Tell me what you like to do.
And like really tell me.
And people didn't know.
And like people.
Like I remember that womansitting in front of me.
And I remember her crying.

(37:30):
Like breaking down and fullycrying.
Because she had lost herself.
Because she didn't know.
Because she had been a mom.
Her children had grown up.
She had worked in a coupledifferent jobs.
And it was scary for her to say.
And I kept pushing her.
To like.
go deeper, go deeper, tell me,tell me, you know, and I

(37:50):
remember her crying and Iremember I remember having that
conversation and a previous mewould have felt uncomfortable.
And I'm like, great, you'recrying.
That's awesome.
Now we've hit real gold.
I was like, I like, you know,and I, and people, I think
sometimes see that as, um, notvery empathetic or, uh, or maybe
I'm, I'm mean or cold orwhatever.

(38:12):
And I'm like, no, that's, we hadto get to the bottom of that,
you know, to get thatbreakthrough.
And it was like, I'm okay withfeedback like that.
I'm okay.
We're allowed to have emotions,um, you know, and like feedback
sometimes Sometimes it's goingto strike a nerve because I
think we're so coddled and I'mworking right now in a project

(38:32):
with a bunch of people who arelike encouraging each other to
join an online world and I don'tthink it's right for everybody,
you know, and I...
I think it's okay to ask peoplewhy they're doing it.
And when I ask those people why,they don't know.
And it's uncomfortable.
And instead of just...

(38:55):
People say, oh, but why don'tyou encourage them more?
I thought the whole...
Because I'm also working on thisDo More Cool Shit project.
And I'm like, yeah, do more coolshit.
But...
but do it in a way that likeserves you and like means
something to you.
And like, I'm not going tosugarcoat something for you.
Maybe you're not good at this ormaybe you're not ready or, or
maybe you don't have the rightwhy.
And that's fine.
And it's, it's going to be hardto hear it, but like, you need

(39:16):
to hear it.
And like cutting athletes.
Oh my God.
Like I've done that for years.
And it's like, that's notcomfortable, you know?
And it's like, there's nothingwrong with not being, how do I
like, had somebody said to me,like, really sat down with me
and was like why do you want tobe a computer engineer I
probably would have never did itbecause like had somebody really

(39:38):
told me like oh you're going tobe solitary like I would have
said like oh I want to be withpeople I want to be outside I
want to have my time I wouldn'thave just been sugar-coated and
said like you're going to make alot of money and you're good at
computers and you're good atmath why why does being good at
something mean that's the thingyou're going to do I hate that.

SPEAKER_02 (39:56):
Yeah.
No, I love that, Sean.
I think there's a, there's such,there's a few really good
nuggets that stuck out for me asyou're sharing here.
You know, one, I think youmentioned is you just, you just
held up the mirror by doing thelife map exercise.
And I think that sometimes, youknow, as leaders, we think we
should have the answer for ourteams, but it's like, I don't
want the answer for you.
I just, I'm going to hold up themirror here so that you see it

(40:19):
and ask you the right questions.
And I'm going to say, tell memore.
I'm going to dig Tell me more.
Tell me more.
Let's dig.
Why isn't this working for you?
Why isn't this working for theteam?
What's wrong here?
And really unpacking that.
And then you get to abreakthrough.
And what really hit me here, Iwas taking notes and I was like,
the best feedback I've evergotten was extremely

(40:41):
uncomfortable.
And the best feedback I've evergiven was extremely
uncomfortable.
If it's not making usuncomfortable, it's probably not
that great of feedback.
Like it's still, sometimes youneed it, little bits here and
there to sprinkle, you know,just get around.
But the good stuff, the stuffthat was transformational was
uncomfortable.
And that is powerful.

(41:01):
And becoming comfortable withthat uncomfortability.
You probably will never getcomfortable with that
uncomfortability.
But perhaps instead make it asign of like, hey, I just gave
good feedback because I wasuncomfortable.
I'm going to lean more into thatbecause that's the right
feeling.
Instead of saying, oh, I'm goingto avoid that feeling.

SPEAKER_01 (41:21):
And also sometimes it's just my opinion.
I know cutting athletes.
And I know there's athletes thathave thought I've been unfair.
and I'm like yeah maybe I'mwrong I don't know it's just
it's my personal opinion andlike that's what I think manager
have to remember too is like I'ma person they're a person people
are all messy we're not onedimensional like there's a lot

(41:44):
of different layers maybe Idon't see anything everything
like I would like to think thatI see and know all the things
about all the people that I'mworking with whether it's
athletes or whether it'semployees or but I don't know
that I don't know I don't knowwhy Jenny came in late three
days last week like maybe shedoesn't want to tell me that
she's having a problem with herpartner right like i i don't

(42:04):
know but so like all i see islike how it's affecting work and
it's like yeah but it's messierthan that it's not easy right
and it's like maybe she's alittle bit more on edge that day
and it's like

SPEAKER_00 (42:15):
yeah

SPEAKER_01 (42:15):
maybe i have to when i'm giving feedback think about
that right and and maybe if shegets angry at me Maybe it has
nothing to do with me givingfeedback to her.
That's also a reality.
It's like, that's okay.
It's okay.
We're all people.
We're all allowed to haveemotions.
And I don't pretend to know whyeverybody has the emotion and
the reaction that they have.
But I have to remind myselfsometimes.

(42:37):
I'm like, wow, she took thatreally bad.
And I'm like, did I do somethingwrong?
Or I really don't like the wayshe took that.
And it's like, I have to stopmyself and think, okay, wait.
Maybe I have to ask anotherquestion.
Or maybe we have to have anotherdifferent conversation on a
different day.
When she's feeling better aboutthe same thing.
And so oftentimes I've found,especially with new or I want to

(43:01):
say young, but not young in theway that like age wise, just
younger in like stepping intothe workplace.
Yeah.
often find like maybe they havetheir own personalities or their
own like I think this is the wayeverything should be done and
that's fine that's great I'mokay with that I was there too

(43:22):
like I did that but it's likelet's have more of these
conversations and like when Ihire someone young and I love
hiring someone that has you knowjust the gung-ho to do whatever
the heck they want like trystuff and I'm like I try to
really encourage people to goahead and just fail or to lean
in.
And I remember, this goes back,man, there's so many parallels

(43:45):
here.
A sports coach saying, if youdon't lean in far enough when
you're doing a pivot skatearound a circle that you fall,
then you're not leaning.
You'll never know how far youcan lean in.
And I was like, oh, that's true.
If I don't push myself farenough and like, let's try this
thing right to the edge, Andthat edge is going to be

(44:08):
different for everybody.
Then you don't know where theedge is.
And I think that's hard withfeedback.
It's like...
some athletes that i had andsome employees that i have want
really direct feedback so i tryto remember that and some people
want it in a written form somepeople want it in a sandwich

(44:28):
form right where it's like giveme the good give me the bad give
me the good but i remember aslike and all you have to do as a
manager is think about how youlike feedback like how do i like
getting feedback i don't likefeedback i i just want to hear
the truth like i just for me i'mlike don't sugarcoat anything.
I don't need to hear that I dida good job last quarter.
Just tell me what I'm doing now.

(44:50):
But that's my personality.
There's, I don't know, a milliondifferent personalities out on
this planet.
Sometimes they're going toclash.
How do you give feedback even?
Do you have any other methodother than one?
I find a lot of managers thatreally suck at giving feedback.
have one method of givingfeedback.

(45:13):
And it's like, well, that's notgoing to work if you have 30
employees because 30 employeesdon't hear that feedback the
same way.

SPEAKER_02 (45:20):
got to have more tools in your tool belt there
and how to give feedback yeahand

SPEAKER_01 (45:24):
that's why you gotta hire Fahad

SPEAKER_02 (45:26):
yeah

SPEAKER_01 (45:26):
that's why you gotta hire Fahad to help you develop
those tools

SPEAKER_02 (45:30):
that's it that's it it's good always be plugging
right like

SPEAKER_01 (45:35):
but it's but it's true though and it's true
because like you do have to likework on that yeah I don't I
don't think anybody can not workon that right and I think
oftentimes people get put inthese positions like my favorite
thing is having an athlete orhaving a young person come into
my workplace and say what do youlike to do and then they'll list

(45:56):
off or what are you good atright and they'll list off all
the things you're good at andI'll be like great today you're
gonna do the total opposite justto see what it's like

SPEAKER_02 (46:03):
yeah

SPEAKER_01 (46:04):
you know how do you

SPEAKER_02 (46:05):
react when you're in a beginner mindset yeah how do
you take feedback on things youhave no idea what you're doing
when you have no idea whatyou're

SPEAKER_01 (46:12):
doing yeah and like knowing those different parts
and like I'll dive in a littlebit deeper probably a little bit
longer or a little bit later butthere's like some very astute
projects that I've worked onthat have that ability or have
that opportunity.
And it's like, that's when youreally see success and you
really see growth.

SPEAKER_02 (46:32):
Well, let's go to one of your projects, John.
You're working right now doing asignificant amount of team
development with some hospitalsand long-term care facilities
you've mentioned.
And you're working with a lot ofyoung managers who are leading
for the first time and we'reworking through some challenges
challenges there.
What do you see as kind of someof these common patterns in

(46:55):
regards to feedback, productiveconflict for young and
inexperienced managers in theteams that you're working

SPEAKER_01 (47:02):
with?
they only have one style likethat is like they they have only
ever developed one style theyknow the way that they worked
and i'm like yeah yeah but nowyou're taking a leadership role
now you're taking a manager rolelike you were able to work like
that for five years and bereally good and that was
probably fine but now you're theone in front of the room so it's

(47:25):
like how do you manage how doyou how are you going to reach
every single team member and andyou might not and also that's
okay you know but like it's atry hard like you got to try
hard to reach all those things.
So I've been doing teamdevelopment with different
hospital groups and differentlong-term care facilities for

(47:47):
probably seven or eight yearsnow.
And some of it's beencontinually ongoing.
And it's been great.
It's really interesting to watchhow that's worked and
progressed.
And I really wanted to bring upthis one exercise that because
we talked a lot about feedbackand we're talking about conflict
management and there's long,long histories of people that

(48:08):
are working together.
Some people have been in thatplace or in those places for
like 10, 20 years.
And like they forget.
So like number one thing Ialways do when I get in there is
I ask them why they got intonursing or personal social work
or whatever their field is.
It's like, do you remember evenwhy you got this job?

(48:29):
And if you can get them to like,Connect with that again that
brings a little bit of humanityand and then and then I do this
exercise with with this group orwith these groups that I When
we're trying to give feedbackand we're trying to give
information So one of theexercise that I love is peanut

(48:49):
butter and jelly sandwich, so Iwalk in there's probably like 20
or 30 people in a room at a timeand I might do this exercise
probably five times a day andwith different cohorts of people
coming in and out.
And I sit there in the front andI say, okay, you're now all the
managers and I'm a newbie on thefloor.
I need you to tell me how tomake a peanut butter sandwich.

(49:13):
Please, in detail, write out theinstructions from one till
however many steps you think.
So they take time and they writeout their little steps and then
throughout the day I'llperiodically say, okay, Janet,
can you tell me how to make apeanut butter sandwich?
And she'll say, take the peanutbutter and put it on the bread.

(49:35):
Okay, so I take the peanutbutter and I physically put it
on this stack of bread.

SPEAKER_00 (49:42):
And she goes,

SPEAKER_01 (49:44):
yeah, I just put the whole jar on the closed bag of
bread.
Yeah, on the sleeve of bread.
And she goes, well, that's notwhat I meant.
I said, that's exactly what yousaid, isn't it?
And she's like, okay, yeah, Ididn't know you were an idiot,
right?
And like, that's the response weget, right?
And it's like, okay, but I'mtrying to learn.
I don't know anything.

(50:04):
Pretend like I don't knowanything, right?
So it's like, okay, open up thebread.
you know and like take a sliceout so i just take the first
slice which is clearly not theway to make a perfect peanut
butter jam because it's got thecrust on the end and she's like
not that piece we're gonna putthat piece but it becomes really
funny for for people because i itell them like you you can jump

(50:25):
in you can help your peers rightAnd they'll say like, take a
scoop of peanut butter.
Well, what do you think I do?
Put my hand in there.

SPEAKER_00 (50:34):
And

SPEAKER_01 (50:34):
they're like,

SPEAKER_00 (50:35):
no,

SPEAKER_01 (50:37):
no, I did it with a knife.
I didn't say with a knife.
So then I'll, okay, grab theknife.
So now I've got a knife in myhand full of peanut butter in my
hand and a knife.
And they're like, no, wash yourhands.
I was like, nobody told me that.
And it's just like, it's really,really hard for people To
give...

(50:58):
the proper, clear feedbackinstructions to get in my
mindset.
Like, and that's what I'm tryingto prove to them is like, I
don't think anybody's going todo the job like this, but like
we're in a hospital and we'rein, we're in a facility where
there are real consequences tothis.
I said, thank God, you know, atthe end of the day, there ends
up being like 15 peanut buttersandwiches and there's peanut

(51:19):
butter everywhere and honey allover the place.
And like, I'm a mess and thetable's a mess.
And like, you do this

SPEAKER_02 (51:25):
several times.

SPEAKER_01 (51:26):
Oh yeah.
I do that throughout the day.
Yeah.
It just gets messier andmessier.

SPEAKER_02 (51:29):
Do people get better and better at it, at least?

SPEAKER_01 (51:32):
Well, yeah.
So that's the hope, right?
Is that people will change howthey're going to communicate
with me.
And what's very interesting issometimes people only have four
steps written down.
Because I always get themwritten down.
But then the person beside themcan have 15 steps.

(51:52):
And it's like, I've given youthe same task twice.
and you have given me vastlydifferent set of instructions
and that's what like feedbackand where conflict is going to
come because it's like well shetakes too long or he doesn't
explain it enough and it's likeokay great so let's do that with

(52:13):
a peanut butter sandwich asopposed to an employee or to
like a patient you know let'shave that conflict and hear
about a stupid peanut buttersandwich as opposed to like oh
like real world problems whereit's like because then we
translate this into how do we umprepare a patient to be toileted

SPEAKER_00 (52:32):
and it's

SPEAKER_01 (52:34):
like everybody and like the person who's been there
for 30 years probably onlywrites down three steps because
they have it all in their headand they've been doing it for 30
years whereas like the personwho is maybe brand new might
have 20 steps because they readit in the book and they have
like jotted it down and it'slike The person who's been there

(52:54):
for 30 years is like, holy shit,Janet takes 20 minutes to toilet
a person.
That should only take fiveminutes.
I'm like, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.

(53:23):
But then like, you know, a weeklater, two weeks later, you're
throwing that phone all over theplace.
It's in the bottom of your bag.
It's underneath the seat of yourcar.
You don't even know where it ishalf the time.
And you're like, you've alreadyforgot what it was like to have
that brand new moment.
Right.
And I think that's where likelots of conflicts happen and
lots of, you know, feedbackloops happen where you're just

(53:46):
like, oh, God, like.
can we remember that and it'stricky because that's my that's
that's my hardest part is liketrying to remember what it was
like when you were younger ortrying to remember when it's the
first day on the job or tryinglike that's why that's why now i
say what did you see what didyou hear you know And it's like,

(54:07):
oh, you saw it that way.
Oh, yeah, no, it doesn'tactually mean that.
Even though you're reading itthat way, it actually means
this.
And that's where we get to havethis conversation and this flow.
And I'm like...
you know so when you say take apiece of bread out what you
actually meant was take a slicefrom the middle a little bit we
don't want like those are allthe little micro steps that you

(54:28):
forgot to say because you'vemade a peanut butter and jam
sandwich for your whole life

SPEAKER_00 (54:33):
yeah yeah yeah yeah exactly exactly

SPEAKER_02 (54:36):
oh I love that that's such a good exercise
that's a really good takeawaywell maybe I mean Sean you're
full of activities and exercisesyou know for our folks that are
listening you know what is maybean exercise that they can do
with their team to try andimprove their feedback and and
their candor you know like ifthere's a manager listening to
this and it's like okay i don'tknow if i want to do the peanut

SPEAKER_01 (54:58):
butter you mean they don't want to yeah you don't
want to get messy with peanutbutter and yeah i was like do
that man pull it pull it pull itno but like no there are other
ones um a really good one that'sreally simple and easy actually
is to put a pen and a paper inyour employee's hand and to say
come up here and and explain tome how to uh go from this

(55:21):
facility whatever like go frommy office to the grocery store
and just draw like tell me howto draw that path and like the
amount of feedback that and likeyou could do that with every
single one of your employees andthey're going to explain it
totally different and by the endand I have some of these maps I
wish I had them handy but I havesome of the maps that are like

(55:41):
from the facility to a grocerystore where everybody knows and
it's like oh my God, when youlook at those maps and how
someone explained something andhow somebody drew it, that tells
you a lot.
And people also, the best partabout that is when everybody
holds up the map and then yousay, do you think you did a good

(56:03):
job?
And oftentimes people are like,I did an amazing job.
And I'm like, look at the maps.
It sucked.
It's like none of the maps...
If you did a really good job,it's very, very clear.
If you did a really, really goodjob, all the maps should look
like Google Maps or Apple Mapsor whatever.
It should all look the same.

(56:24):
If you did an impeccable job, itshould all look the same.
And they don't.
This one looks like, where'sthat taking me?
And they forget...
little minute details but that'ssomething easy that you can do
really quickly in a team meetingfive minutes even quicker get
people to even quicker if youwant a quick one Monday morning

(56:46):
meeting pull everybody in geteverybody a sheet of paper and a
pen and get them to draw aChristmas tree or a tree just a
tree just draw a tree andeverybody's going to draw a tree
and they're all going to drawdon't look at each other's paper
you know whatever okay greatshow me the trees They're going
to hold up the tree and all thetrees are going to look
different.
And it's like, that's the,you're now just as a memory.

(57:08):
Remember, these are all thedifferent trees that people saw
when you said the word tree.
You said one word, you said treeand they saw 50 different trees.

SPEAKER_00 (57:18):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (57:19):
Yeah.
You know, and probably none ofthose trees are exactly the
same.
And it's like, okay, those, youhave to deal with all those
different people.

SPEAKER_02 (57:26):
and how they see things.
And I think you, I think you,you know, you said this earlier
on, but, and we emphasize it somuch, but it's so true.
Like our leadership approach hasto be personalized to each
individual.
And so is our feedback approachand our conflict approach.
Like how do, how do we have goodcandor with each other?
It's going to depend on how Seanlikes feedback, Sean's
personality, how many yearsSean's been on the job, right?

(57:47):
Like it's going to depend onwhat kind of feedback he wants.
Right.
And, and how much, how granularthe feedback is.
You know, what's, it'sinteresting is that I often
didn't hear from a lot of thehigh-performing teams we work
with, and they'll say, we don'tget enough feedback.
I wish we got more feedback.
It's not even that I'm gettingtoo much and it's hurting my

(58:07):
feelings.
I don't even know how I'm doing.
I don't even know how well we'redoing.
That

SPEAKER_01 (58:13):
happens a lot, I think.
Actually, that just strucksomething.
I really have to share this one.
I'm working at a vet clinic.
It's a big vet clinic.
There's tons of people.
There's four doctors and ahundred different nurses and
whatever.
They all serve of all thedoctors well all the doctors

(58:34):
obviously have different ways ofdoing things so I go to this
place and there's there's a lotof conflict in this place and
and I said okay great like and Istarted asking people like what
what would help or what whathave you guys doing I'm like
what do you guys talk about whenyou have meetings and they're
like oh we don't have meetingsI'm like, what do you mean you

(58:54):
don't have meetings?
And they were like, well, wedon't have team meetings
anymore.
I was like, well, okay, explainto me why you don't have them
anymore.
You used to have them.
Why don't you have them anymore?
And they were like, oh, well, wedon't have them anymore because
people used to get upset andcry.
So now we just don't have them.
And I'm like...
oh cool so now we just don'thave emotion here like so what

(59:17):
do you think like what do youthink happens now you think
people are just happy like youknow it's like oh if we don't if
we don't have a meeting thenit's fine we just don't look at
it it's fine yeah and they'rehappy right they're happy and
I'm like no they're not happylike they're not happy and
they're not telling you that andand you've squashed that idea of
like even allowing people tohave a feeling and I like I

(59:41):
That's the thing.
I think like, I don't know, weget into this cold world of
like, I don't know, business isbusiness in the bottom line.
And it's like, fuck, like,can't, can we not just remember
that we are humans?
Like, you know, and I've saidthat enough times in this
podcast, but it's like, we'reall humans.
Like, who knows what thatperson's going through?
You know?

(01:00:01):
And there's like, I have amillion more stories about all
that kind of stuff where it'slike, it's impacted.
And all I had to do was hold upa mirror in front of somebody
and just say, hey, I know yourmanager yelled at you the other
day.
what do you think that personmight be going through?
And they're like, well, I don'tgive a shit.
And I'm like, no, but youshould.
And it is a tricky balancebecause you do want to come to

(01:00:24):
work and you want to beprofessional.
But yeah, you're going to beaffected somehow.
The world is going to affectyou.
And it's like, I get that youwant to bury some of that and
leave it at the door, right?
Yeah.
But it's like, yeah, but youcan't always do that.
Sometimes it's going to getthere and it's like, okay,

(01:00:46):
Fahad's having a pissy day todaybecause something happened in
the real world and he's justupset.
He's not upset at me.
I don't have to take thingspersonally.
I think

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:57):
that's so powerful.
I mean, giving people thebenefit of the doubt.
I say believe in the inherentgoodness of people that No,
Sean's a good person.
He's just having a tough day,right?
Like it's inherently trust andbelieve and give them that
benefit.
I think that's so powerful.
Yeah, I think you said it.
We can't separate professionaland personal.

(01:01:20):
Even in a remote world, we'reall working from home.
So you're at your home working.
So what are we separatingreally, right?
Yeah, I think that's good.
Now, Sean, for one of our lastbits here, you've got a good
scene.
You've got a good saying.
You've got a good question thatyou ask yourself often when

(01:01:41):
giving feedback or when decidingif you're going to give
feedback.
I'm going to let you share thatquestion and maybe walk us
through some of the thinkingthat goes with it.

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:52):
Yeah.
I mean, work, life, it's allvery serious stuff.
Or we like to think it's veryserious stuff.
And I like to think, like, we'vemade all this shit up.
Like, everything we've done,everything, all the stress,
we've made all this up.
I mean, there was a time in ourworld when we used to just,
like, you know, roam the landand, like, fight elephants.

(01:02:14):
You know,

SPEAKER_02 (01:02:15):
fight food.
I don't know if we foughtelephants, but...

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:19):
Just fight

SPEAKER_02 (01:02:19):
food.

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:20):
Well, you know, to get the food.
You know, we had to fightthings.
We had to fight something.
I don't know if we foughtelephants.
I mean, there's, you know, I'mpretty sure there's caveman
drawings or something.
Like, but you know we had tofind food you know and then we
made all this stuff up and wemade ourselves really
comfortable and and this wholeidea of like you know when
conflict is happening and ithink we we take it to an

(01:02:41):
extreme or like you know andit's like my question has always
been and i i've always said thisis like okay that person did
this and i wouldn't have done itthat way i used to get really
upset about that kind of stuffand then i was like you know
what as a leader I have to askmyself, is anybody going to die
because that happened?
And it's like, that's the thingis like, is anybody going to

(01:03:03):
die?
So if the answer is no, becauseI'm not a doctor, you know, do I
have to come?
Do I have to rain down thearches of hell upon this person
for doing something that, youknow, did they try something?
Did they die?
Did they express an emotion?

(01:03:25):
I don't know.
Can I put that into perspective?
Can I put all of the things thatwe're doing into perspective and
really respect that person as ahuman being?
And it's like, if I can do that,then okay, cool.
Now we can have some fun and wecan learn and we can grow.
Because now people aren't afraidto make mistakes.

(01:03:47):
And it's funny, and I thinkyou've seen this before, but A
long time ago, I had a youngstudent that worked for me, and
she was awesome.
I loved her.
And we worked together so well.
but we always had this likehilarious camaraderie and almost
every day I fired her you knowas a joke for something not like

(01:04:10):
nonsensical right and at the endof our time together she came to
me and she was like Sean I madeyou something I think it's funny
I think you'll find it funny Ihope you don't take a personal
it's just a little joke I did itshe's a graphic designer and I
was like Maddie would you pleasejust show me the content thing

(01:04:30):
you made and she flips it aroundand she's like teeing and
giggling and she like turns itand it's a it's a logo it's an
image of my face with just mybeard my hair and stuff and
underneath it it says pleasantlymean and i thought that was
absolutely hilarious because i'mlike yeah i and and this word

(01:04:52):
mean or this word like direct isbecause i'm direct have you like
anybody that's listening haveyou ever watched a panel or
listened to a panel aboutanything it doesn't matter what
the panel's about i hate sittingat a panel presentation whenever
he goes oh yes i do see yourpoint and i think that's great
but then this and i'm likewhere's the passion where's the

(01:05:14):
energy I love having like I saidat the very beginning like I was
bringing it right right rightround circle like I love having
passion I'm like man if you'rejust gonna agree with me like
I'm gonna fire you like I don'twant you here it's like I need
you to have thoughts andopinions and ideas I'm like I
think the best managers are knowor believe that their team is

(01:05:34):
awesome and believes that theirteam has great ideas and it's
not always gonna match up.
And if that's what you want as amanager, you're not gonna be a
good manager.
You're not gonna be a goodleader.
If you just want everybody toagree with you, then it's gonna
suck because you're gonna have alot of conflict and people are
gonna be really mad.
Or you're gonna have a verymediocre service or practice or

(01:05:57):
whatever because you're nevergonna push forward.
you know I love having adisagreement and it's like can
we not learn to havedisagreements and realize that
no one's gonna die you knowbecause we've had these
disagreements you know so Idon't know that's I think that's
so important and I think it'sreally important for people to

(01:06:19):
remember that that's like we'reall dealing with humans can we
be kind and can we be honest andlike honest I think sometimes
it's seen as mean but But youcan be kind and honest.
There is a way to do it.
There is a way to give feedbackwithout being blunt and rude.

(01:06:39):
I don't think I've ever hadanybody...
I mean, you'll have to do theresearch, but I don't think
anybody's ever worked for methat's left working with me and
been really mad.
I don't know of anybody.
I talk to almost everybodythat's ever ventured on and...

(01:06:59):
I think for the most part, it'sbeen a great experience to just
learn and grow together.
And what else are we doing onthis planet?

SPEAKER_02 (01:07:05):
Yeah, yeah.
You know, I really love howyou've, you know, how...
It goes from engaging inproductive conflict and feedback
to fostering that in our team toit is a method for coaching and
learning and growing, right?
And I think that connection thatyou've made between those ideas,
ultimately that's what you do asa coach is you make people grow

(01:07:28):
and learn by uncomfortablebreakthrough moments of feedback
and intention that helps thatget to the next stage.
And I bet tons of people thatwork for you, maybe at the time,
at the time would have feltlike, oh my God, I don't,
alright Sean or I'm frustratedabout this but then see it right
or kind of take it in and likeoh yeah I get where he's coming

(01:07:49):
from or where I'm learning andthat directness is so powerful.

SPEAKER_01 (01:07:54):
But I know a lot of them were like just tell me the
answer right and I was like no Idon't want to tell you the
answer and I think that happensa lot with athletes especially
and especially younger athletesit's like give me the playbook
I'm like I'm not going to giveyou the playbook because I can't
control the exes that are outthere like I don't know you're
the and they're the exes.
I don't know what the exes aregoing to do.
You know, I have a good idea andI can show you lots of things,

(01:08:16):
but I want you to think.
And it's like, I want, I'm goingto challenge you.
I'm going to challenge you.
And I remember having athletesand we, you kind of brushed on
this actually earlier, but itwas like athletes would come to
the door with a problem and itcould have been a problem
internally with the team.
It could be a problem withsomething that they've done on
the field, whatever.
And I would say, have youthought about it yet?

(01:08:36):
Like, what's your solution?
And if they said no, then I'mlike, good, get out.
You're not welcome here if youhaven't thought about it.
And I do the same thing withpeople on my teams.
I do the same thing with anybodythat I'm working with.
It's like, okay, you're comingto me with a problem.
I'm not the grandmaster of allknowing things, even though some

(01:08:58):
people in my life would say Iprobably assume I am.
But it's like, have you thoughtabout the solution?
Have you put any energy intothinking about a solution?
And if they just say no then I'mlike great get it like go go get
it that's the thing you have todo first like if you have a
conflict with somebody you haveto think about what you can do
not what they can do or or notwhat the manager can solve for

(01:09:21):
you right it's like I thinkmanagers I think we're power
hungry I think leaders powerhungry managers are power hungry
coaches are power hungry we'reall we're all power hungry right
we all want that power and likeoh I know the answer and I'm
gonna tell you how to

SPEAKER_00 (01:09:34):
do it

SPEAKER_01 (01:09:34):
I'm like maybe I do have the answer but what's the
what's the value in that what'sthe value of with me telling you
how to solve the problem thatyou came with.
And I'm like, wouldn't it bemuch better if I could just hold
up a mirror like we've beensaying and say, well, what do
you think?
And what do you think is such apowerful statement, even

SPEAKER_00 (01:09:54):
though it's such a- So simple, but

SPEAKER_01 (01:09:56):
so, yeah.
And I think a lot of peoplethink that's weak.
And I think they think, oh,that's not, you don't know the
answer.
And it's like, no, no, it's notthat I don't know the answer or
not that I have an answer.
But I want you to think aboutit.
And I think people really thinkthat's weak.
And I know that has happened forsure.
In some of the coaching settingsI've done with teams, because

(01:10:20):
they'll say to me like, Oh, wecan't say anything to the
manager because they don't know.
They always just put it back onus.
And I'm like, well and then doyou think about it you know and
i think managers are afraid todo that because it's that fine
balance between like i have tobe the boss and yeah i have to
know i'm yeah i have to know i'mexpected to know yeah yeah and

(01:10:41):
it's like you you do have tohave that fine line um but i
don't think there's anythingwrong with like fostering that
culture of like hey we're allthinking here like i just have
the title you know but we canall be thinkers

SPEAKER_02 (01:10:53):
Yeah, we'd all be thinkers.
And I think if we can tie itback into your initial story as
a 15-year-old wanting to use thefield, I think it's about giving
agency to each member of ourteam so that they can be the
thinking athlete, so that theycan have the voice, so that they
can engage and debate anddiscuss.

(01:11:15):
And that ultimately makes ourteams better.
Well, Sean, this has been fun.
I always love our conversationsAnd you've had so much to share,
such good nuggets.
Tons of clips for us, I'm sure,to share.
But thank you so much.
I don't know if you've got anylast thoughts, any last messages
to our listeners.

(01:11:37):
But it is always a pleasure andalways an honor to have you here
with us.

SPEAKER_01 (01:11:43):
yeah no it was great I really appreciate the time
that we've spent together overthe years and this is super fun
and it's like yeah my only lastmessage just I want to re-hit
over the head is like be kindand be honest you know be kind
and be honest that's like Ican't say that enough but
especially so I thanks so muchfor having me and I look forward
to hearing all the otherepisodes

SPEAKER_02 (01:12:04):
thanks Sean remember be kind and be honest and thank
you Sean for being on ourpodcast I mean it's kind of a
fun full circle moment, Seanalso helps produce our podcast
and has been helping us bringthis to life.
And he joined us as a guest tobe able to share his wisdom
because I've learned so muchfrom Sean.

(01:12:25):
You know, one of the things thatwe didn't really talk about on
this episode that I learned fromSean really is his, I say his
ready, fire, aim philosophy,right?
It's ready, fire, aim, whichmeans take the shot before you
spend so much time trying to aimat it.
Just get things out there.
And I think with a lot of theskills that we're learning
throughout these podcasts, Iwould say that same philosophy,

(01:12:47):
ready, fire, aim, which is totry the skill out, try the
difficult conversation, try thedrafting vision and values, try
to improve recruitment.
without trying to overthink it.
How can we take some of thelessons that we're learning here
and try them right away?

(01:13:07):
And I think if we do that, whathappens is that we can then
calibrate afterwards.
And so the aiming comes afteryou've taken your first few
shots.
And I think it's actually truewhen you play sports, right?
Play soccer, play hockey, playbasketball.
You just go up there and youtake your shot.
And based on how that first shotwent, you then adjust and then
you adjust and then you get afeel for it.
And you're like, oh, okay, I'mfinding my rhythm from this

(01:13:30):
spot.
And so I think a lot more timeswe've got to take that shot and
I know that's a personal lifelesson I've learned from Sean
over the years thank you eachand every one of you that are
listening that have beensupporters of our Unicorn
Leadership Podcast if you've gotany questions and you've
listened all the way then pleasefeel free to message us you can
find us on any of our socialmedias you can find me Fahad

(01:13:51):
Al-Hattab or you can email medirectly at fahad at
unicornlabs.ca that's it fortoday thank you so much for
tuning into our UnicornLeadership Podcast episode You
can find the show notes andtranscripts at unicornlabs.ca
slash podcast.
Be sure to rate, to review, tosubscribe, tell a few friends.
And I will leave you with thisquestion to think about.

(01:14:14):
What peanut butter sandwichmoment have you had?
When is the last time you've,how do you make your peanut
butter sandwiches?
But in more of its analogy, whenhave you given instructions to
individuals and team memberswhere they can make their peanut
butter sandwiches?
there was such a gap that youwere surprised by the gap and

(01:14:35):
the knowledge that you weresurprised by how your
communication led to acompletely different way and a
completely different answer.
What peanut butter sandwichmoments have you had to reflect
on?
Thank you.
And we will talk to you soon.