How do you access financial services when you're 'invisible'?

Imagine an American single mother of two teenagers living in Indianapolis who decides it is time to buy her first family home. With no debt, a college degree and a steady job, one would think it would be easy to secure a mortgage. Except she can’t. What about a British national in his mid-thirties moving back to the UK after spending some time in Hong Kong? He has a corporate job and needs access to credit to get his life organised in the UK. Except he can’t because he has no past credit history in the UK and traditional credit lenders cannot score his ability to repay loans. 

Financial exclusion affects 30 percent of people worldwide across rich and developing countries and impacts a  huge variety of people, from students, retirees, housewives, migrants and many more.

Fortunately, there are solutions. In this episode, YS Chi speaks with Steve Elliot, UK managing director of LexisNexis Risk Solutions who shares his thoughts on how to address the issue in the UK; and with Carolina Costa, RELX head of government affairs for Latin America, who says Brazil is getting it right.
 
This podcast is brought to you by RELX.

Episode Transcript

YS Chi (00:00):
The unique contributions podcast is brought to you by
RELX. Find out more about us byvisiting relx.com.

(00:41):
Hello, and welcome to seriesthree of Unique Contributions, a
RELX podcast where we bring youcloser to some of the most
interesting people from aroundour businesses. I'm YS Chi, and
I'll be exploring with my guestssome of the biggest issues that
matter to society. In thisseries, I also want to
investigate the issue of trust.
How can we build trust in dataand technology to help create a

(01:03):
world that works for everyone?
I'm exploring today the topic offinancial inclusion. Financial
exclusion is a worldwide crisisthat impacts 1.7 billion people,
or around 30% of people acrossthe globe, without access to
global financial services thatmeet their needs. Global

(01:25):
financial inclusion has vastlyimproved over the last 10 years,
but what still surprises me tothis day, is how many people
this affects in both rich andpoor countries alike. Such is
the gravity of the issue, thatfinancial inclusion is an
enabler for achieving seven ofthe 17 United Nations

(01:45):
Sustainable Development Goals,from eradicating poverty, to
promoting health and wellbeingto reducing inequality, and
achieving gender equality andeven economic empowerment of
women. I'm speaking today withtwo experts on the topic who
have first hand experience offinancial exclusion, one in the

(02:05):
UK, and the other in Brazil. Somy first guest is Steve Elliot,
managing director for LexisNexisRisk Solutions in the UK and
Ireland. Steve, welcome.

Steve Elliot (02:16):
Thank you very much. Thank you.

YS Chi (02:18):
So Steve, while financial inclusion sounds
great, I want to make sure thatwe're on the same page about
this meaning, can you tell uswhat you mean by financial
inclusion?

Steve Elliot (02:28):
Well, absolutely.
So if we think about the worldaround us, our world is changing
fast. Whatever economy we livein society is rapidly evolving,
people are acting in a much moredigital landscape. And it
requires fast decision making.
And that includes in the creditmarkets. In the credit markets,
firms are trying to understandwho people are and do so

(02:48):
quickly. And trying tounderstand what risks they
present when they're trying tolend credit. And financial
inclusion - to be included - itmeans that those firms need to
be able to make decisions fastin relation to the people. But
if they can't, if they're usingthe wrong data, then it makes it
very difficult for those creditproviders to provide service to
the consumers. And that'sessentially what I mean.

YS Chi (03:09):
So you're saying that more number of people are more
quickly having to engage indaily lives, that includes
financial transactions, and thatmany are being unfairly treated,
including being left outentirely? Is that true?

Steve Elliot (03:24):
That's absolutely true. So it all comes down to
how they're looked at, and comesdown to the data that's used
when you're trying to assesswhether the person first of all
is a real person, whether theperson is the person they claim
to be, but also the risk thatthey present. So it's absolutely
about the data that it relieson, and a lot of credit scoring
at the moment relies on pastactivity, what happened in the

(03:46):
past. And that's not often agood predictor of what might
happen in the future, the futurein the past are different
things. So people are beingexcluded, because firms are
using the wrong data to try andpredict future activity for
people.

YS Chi (04:00):
Right, we're going to get to that a little bit later,
again, about the past behaviourpattern. But just how big is
this issue? How many people inthe UK, for example, are
struggling to get access tocredit, since UK is a very
developed country?

Steve Elliot (04:18):
Well, it's bigger than you think. And as you say,
the UK is a developed country,it's reliant. It's relied on all
sorts of data to score creditover a long period of time, and
yet the problem still exists. Soin terms of scale, we estimate
that about 7.1 million people inthe UK or put another way, about
13.7% of the population, theadult population that are

(04:38):
struggling to access credit atthe right price, or to access
credit at all, because they havevery thin credit files or no
files at all. So when firms aretrying to score them, they
struggle to do so accurately andthat's at some scale.

YS Chi (04:52):
So, I mean, I used to be a banker and, you know, we would
indeed make decisions aboutcredit worthiness based on past
behaviour, because that is theonly predictor we had going
forward. So how is that anydifferent today, Steve?

Steve Elliot (05:08):
Well it used to be the only predictor predictor of
behaviour going forward. But nowusing more data assets, you can
actually be much more accuratein terms of predicting the
future, you can look at not justhow they behave in their
existing credit records, butalso how they behave in terms of
the lifestyle around them, whothey interact with, and so on,
and so on. And then you can useanalytics to actually look at

(05:30):
the key indicators that willtell you how they're going to
behave in the future. But theproblem is even broader than
that. If I relate it directlyback to financial inclusion and
exclusion, if you don't havethat record, then you can't
actually look at the pastbehaviour to work out what the
future behaviour is going to be.
And I'll give the example of myown children. My own children
are trying to enter the marketsat the moment but because they

(05:51):
have no past behaviour, they'realmost compelled to take out
debt or credit in order to tryand create a profile so that
firms can actually predict whatthey might do. So the current
ways actually need an awful lotof improvement.

YS Chi (06:08):
Yes, and my kids are doing exactly the same saying
they need to take out loans justso that they have credit record.

Steve Elliot (06:14):
Well, that's right, we encourage people to
take debt to try and build acredit profile. And that's got
to be the wrong way of doingthings. And if we consider some
of the consequences of that, wecan see short term loan
applications on the increase atthe moment - many more people
are applying for for short termloans in order to try and
improve their position becausethey can't get access to the

(06:35):
right credit at the right price.

YS Chi (06:38):
Let's delve in a little deeper into that. I don't want
to underestimate or understatejust how bad the consequences of
not having access to credit are.
But for many people, it can behard to picture what exactly
happens when you don't have acredit history? Can you just
give us some very simpleexamples of this?

Steve Elliot (06:58):
Well absolutely.
So what does credit mean? Creditmeans more than just credit
cards, it means access tomortgages, it means access to
loans that people use to pay foreducation to improve their
lifestyle, to improve theirfinancial wellbeing. It means
access to energy supplies. Andin the UK, we see increasing
numbers of people having to getpay as you go meters, which are

(07:20):
very expensive, because theutility companies are struggling
to credit rate them and providethem with access to utility. So
it means that right acrosspeople's lifestyle, if you can't
credit risk rate, or you can'tget effective credit scoring
against you, you end up payingmore for things more for energy,
more for mortgages, if you canget them, more for credit cards,

(07:43):
because you're considered to bea higher risk when in fact you
might not be.

YS Chi (07:48):
Right, and I understand you have an interesting story
yourself.

Steve Elliot (07:52):
That's right, you're well informed! Yeah. So
I, I lived many years out inHong Kong. I did a number of
things in Hong Kong. And Ididn't come back to the UK until
I was in my 30s. I came back tothe UK and I had no debt in the
UK. I'm a British national. Ispent my childhood in the UK,
came back with no debt. But Icouldn't get any credit. I

(08:13):
couldn't get a mortgage. Icouldn't get credit cards, even
though I had no debt. And Icouldn't get them, because in
the UK, I didn't have a creditrecord. So I had a job but
struggled actually to justinteract with the environment
around me because I couldn't getaccess to that credit. And yet I
was in a reasonable position.

YS Chi (08:31):
Yeah, well, you probably were what you call in your
industry, an invisible person,huh?

Steve Elliot (08:38):
Well, exactly. So I had no file, so invisible, and
yet I had income, right. And Iwas able to service the debt if
I had it, but I wouldn't bealone. So if we think through
examples, there's lots of otherpeople in the same situation.
Quite often when couples aregoing through divorces, that you
find that the financialarrangements were in the name of
the husband. And then the wifewill struggle to get access to

(08:59):
credit for rental arrangements,for energy services for credit
cards, and so on. Like I'veexplained because they don't
have a file. Children, youngpeople, as they're entering the
market will struggle to evidencetheir records, and all sorts of
other people moving across thecountry, even the elderly
struggle, because they tend tohave less credit having already

(09:20):
paid things off. But when theydo need to return back to the
credit markets, they strugglebecause they haven't got the
profiles, so it impacts a lot ofpeople

YS Chi (09:29):
Specifically in the UK, since you cover this territory,
is it something that is evenlydistributed throughout the
country? Or is it something thatis more pronounced in certain
parts of the UK?

Steve Elliot (09:44):
There are regional differences for financial
inclusion but also theconsequences of not being
financially included. And we seeactually the differences where
you'd expect to see them in theUK so London and the surrounding
areas has a lower incidence offinancial exclusion sorry, then
the north of England or Wales.
Wales, in fact of the HomeNations other than Northern

(10:05):
Ireland has the highest rates offinancial exclusion. And then
you can go into that further andlook at the usual areas where
there are economic difficultiesacross the nation and see,
actually there are furthertrends there as well. So it's
trended by geography, but alsotrended by age group. And we see
a big impact in the in theyounger age group where they are
trying to enter the market.

YS Chi (10:27):
Right? So what can we do? What is our unique
contribution as LexisNexis RiskSolutions to this issue in the
UK?

Steve Elliot (10:39):
Well we can provide much better credit
forecasting, so we have a verybroad set of data assets that
look not just at the past, butwhat people are doing today,
that looks not just at theircredit records, but also lots of
other lifestyle records as well.
All of our data iscredentialised, it's real data.
None of it is social media data,it is real activity data. And

(11:00):
we've linked all of this datatogether into single profiles
for people. It includes thelikes of, you know, name,
address, date of birth, but thedevice they use, the email
address they use, where they useit, how they use it, and so on.
And we've linked that together.
And then we can run analyticsagainst it, to look at the

(11:20):
network around them, to see howrisky their entire network is.
And what that means in practice,it means that we can
authenticate very fast, but wecan also risk rate very
effectively. And that has realtangible benefit, not just for
the individual, but for industryas well.

YS Chi (11:39):
So this is years of experience that we have
accumulated in these mixed ofrich data that does predictive
forecasting, is that correct?
That's absolutely correct. Andso it's a secret sauce of some
sort.

Steve Elliot (11:55):
That is the secret sauce. It's bringing all the
data together, linking ittogether effectively to see the
full network around anindividual so you truly
understand who they are and whatrisks they pose. And that's
exciting for many reasons. It'sexciting because you can
understand credit risk far, farmore effectively, you can
predict risk far moreeffectively. To give you a quick

(12:16):
example, in relation to that,when we've looked at it, we
found there are much betterpredictors of a person's
likelihood to pay or not paythan the historic credit payment
record that firms typically relyon.

YS Chi (12:29):
So this is really encouraging to know that we have
expanded the view of the entireperson rather than the very
narrow past history. So that'sgreat. But on the other hand, we
all are worried about privacy.
It sounds like we have a lot ofdata. And how do you assure
people on the street that thisdata is being used for good?

Steve Elliot (12:58):
Well, that's, that's a great question. I, too,
am a consumer in the market. AndI too, am always concerned about
security and privacy. But withbig data, provided you have
strong governance and strongregulation in place, you can get
increased assurance. So what doI mean by that? With more data,
we can actually see if peopleare being targeted by

(13:19):
fraudsters, we can see fraudnetworks starting to set up
around individuals that youwouldn't typically see if you
had less data. But we areextremely well governed, we are
independently audited by ourcustomers, we are regulated by
the FCA. And we have veryextensive controls in place that
check the customers that weprovide the data to, how they

(13:41):
use it, how we use it, and soon. So we have a very
comprehensive set of controlsthat ensure that we act
responsibly.

YS Chi (13:48):
Right. So I have two related questions. If a consumer
hears this, is it explained in astreet language that we can all
understand? Or do you reallyneed to be an expert and rely on
FCA or ICO or other governmententity to tell us that it's
okay?

Steve Elliot (14:08):
If you're referring to the security of the
data, it is a complex, complexissue. And the best way to
understand it quickly is toconfirm that we are regulated by
the different entities. If youtrust those entities, then you
quickly get trust that we aregoverning the data effectively.
We are registered with the DataProtection Office. So with the

(14:29):
Information Commissioner'sOffice and subject to their
regulations as well. So if youtrust those entities, and their
oversight of us, you can trustour governance. But if people
need to see more detail, thenwe're always happy to explain
that.

YS Chi (14:44):
So my second question is if quote unquote, a "mistake" is
made in our, our assessment ofthe person's ability to pay,
right? I literally put that inthe quotation mark because it
must be defined. If you thinkthat's something was done
wrongly in calculating the risk.
Is there a way to correct that

Steve Elliot (15:07):
That's, you know, again, another very strong
as a consumer?
question. So we ultimately don'tmake the decision about whether
a consumer gets credit or not,we provide the insight to
lenders, and lenders can use italong with yet more data assets
to make their decisions. But aconsumer might feel the decision
was wrong. And we do have ourown consumer complaint

(15:28):
arrangements in place so that ifa consumer thinks that we have
the wrong data in relation tothem, or our data is inaccurate,
then they may make complaints tous, and we take a look at the
data and review the data. And weensure that the data is fully
accurate and correct. So thereare routes for the consumer,
both with the lender themselves,and directly with us to make

(15:48):
sure that the data that weprovide is accurate and true.

YS Chi (15:52):
So it sounds to me like we are always in the background
supporting our customers whothen support the consumers.

Steve Elliot (16:00):
Well that's kind of true. So we're powering big
organisations, in fact, bigmedium, small organisations so
that they can provide theircustomers, their consumers with
access to credit, but alsoaccess to all sorts of other
services as well. Consumers wantto move from one service to the
next very quickly. And we'reenabling firms to identify to

(16:21):
authenticate fast, to creditrisk rate fast, to fraud assess
individuals fast as well, sothat they can get absolute
security and move quicklythrough their own supply chain
through the through thedifferent services and products
that they want to be accessing.

YS Chi (16:38):
So it sounds to me like if this were a restaurant, you
are letting our waiters andthose who are in the front of
the restaurant to get thefeedback from the consumers. And
you will change the secret saucein the kitchen.

Steve Elliot (16:53):
Absolutely, yeah, we need to make sure that the
secret sauce, the data that wehave is absolutely accurate. If
it's not, then our own customerswill stop using us. So the food
in your kitchen analogy in yourrestaurant analogy is critical.
It needs to be the right food.
It needs to be safe, it needs tobe prepared correctly. It needs
to be right for the consumer andthe customer.

YS Chi (17:12):
Yeah so the data is the ingredient. Exactly. Great. Now
I can relate to when it comes tofood and golf, I can understand.
Thank you so much for spendingtime with us today. This was
really very informative andeducational, and I can hear
excitement in your voice.

Steve Elliot (17:34):
Well, there is genuine excitement. I used to be
many years ago in in the policeout in Hong Kong actually. And I
can see here, how more effectivewe are able to be in fighting
fraud and fighting criminals.
But I've also been in in allsorts of financial services
companies for many years. Andagain, here I can see how much
better we can enable them to beto provide services to their

(17:56):
consumers. So I think what we dois incredibly exciting. And
that's what motivates and drivesall of us here.

YS Chi (18:04):
And I agree with you, if we can make credit available to
the right people more fairly andquickly, then it is good for the
whole society because then thebad credit is distinguishable.
And we don't have to pay for thebad credit.

Steve Elliot (18:20):
Exactly. People shouldn't be overpaying for the
credit based on inaccurate riskassessments. They shouldn't be
excluded because they can't beseen. They shouldn't be exposed
to fraudsters and we can fightall of that and help all of
that.

YS Chi (18:32):
Well thank you, Steve.

Steve Elliot (18:33):
Thank you very much.

YS Chi (18:35):
The UK is a good example of how even rich economies can
do much much more to helpmillions of adults gain access
to fairer and more affordablefinancial services. So thank you
again, Steve for being my guesttoday. And moving on, I now want
to focus on a different region,Latin America.

(19:03):
My next guest is Carolina Costa,who heads RELX's government
affairs division in LatinAmerica. Carolina's work is
crucial in enabling a goodunderstanding of what RELX does,
and ensuring trust between us,governments and other
stakeholders in the region.
Welcome, Carolina, so glad tohave you today.

Carolina Costa (19:23):
YS, thank you so much it's a pleasure.

YS Chi (19:26):
Yeah, so I started this episode, asking Steve Elliot for
his own definition of financialinclusion. Now, this is, you
know, another one of these termsthat can mean a lot of things to
different people. So I wouldlike to get started with our
conversation by asking, whatdoes financial inclusion mean to
you? Have you seen it affectindividuals around you?

Carolina Costa (19:51):
Wonderful. Yes.
YS, so for me, financialinclusion means that individuals
and businesses have access touseful and affordable financial
services that meet their needs,and that are delivered in a
responsible and sustainable way.
And here we're talking aboutservices such as payments,
savings, credit, insurance, soon and so forth. And by looking

(20:12):
at financial inclusion from thatperspective, it becomes clear
that financial inclusion is akey enabler to reduce poverty
and boost shared prosperity inour society. The case and the
evidence that financialinclusion serves as a pillar for
economic development is sostrong that multilateral
organisations have the issueranking high on their

(20:33):
priorities. We see a lot ofactivity on financial inclusion
coming from the word bank, theG7, the G20, and the United
Nations, which has identifiedfinancial inclusion as a key
driver for achieving seven ofthe UN's 17 Sustainable
Development Goals.

YS Chi (20:48):
So how much financial exclusion is there today in
Brazil, for example, or all ofSouth America?

Carolina Costa (20:57):
Yes, it is a problem that is very much
present in Brazil, and in LatinAmerica, and the nature of
financial exclusion in theregion is complicated and
presents several layers. Forinstance, when we're looking to
specific groups, right, andthose groups that are impacted

(21:20):
by financial exclusion, they canbe of many different backgrounds
and part of many differentgroups. One that to me is close
to my heart, I guess, is thefinancial exclusion of Latin
women. But that is not limitedonly to women that are in the
bottom of the social class.
Women across different socialclasses are impacted by existing

(21:43):
limitations that result infinancial exclusion. These
limitations can be structuralones, such as a strong
dependence on the family and theinformal economy, high economic
exposure or limited rights toown property. Other limitations
may be what many referred to asthe unseen barriers, unpaid
work, the lack of family leavepolicies for new mothers or

(22:07):
gender pay discrimination.
Cultural and social norms play amajor role impacting the
economic participation of womenwell into adulthood. When jobs
are scarce, we often see thatmen tend to have more rights to
those jobs than women do. Also,as a result of cultural and
social norms, women can bediscouraged to open their own

(22:29):
bank accounts, so they canremain dependent on male
figures. In Latin America,approximately 58% of men have an
account compared to 51% ofwomen. This suggests that around
160 million women in LatinAmerica do not have a bank
account. Now, if I put mygovernment relations hat on, you

(22:51):
know, the call to action toplayers involved in the
financial inclusion debate, ormoving away from financial
exclusion, is that gender cannotbe an afterthought due to the
design of policies dedicated topromote financial inclusion.
Integrating gender analysis intothese policies, YS is critical,

(23:11):
because women from the factoryfloor to the classroom to the
boardroom, are the pillar foreconomic growth,

YS Chi (23:18):
So over the past 10 years or so, I have been hearing
that this situation has reallyimproved very well. Still some
way to go, of course, and thatmore people are getting access
to financial services. Now in aworld in which, as Steve
described, where there's muchmore than bank account issues

(23:42):
with all these digitaltransactions that we conduct
every day, how is this affectingBrazil and Brazilian people
without access to financialservices, especially woman? Is
this particularly easy for them?
Or is it particularly hard for

Carolina Costa (24:02):
I think it's a bit of both. And, you know,
them?
talking about Brazil here isreally fascinating, because in a
way, I think Brazil is gettingthings right. Over the past two
decades, Brazil has made somevery important advances toward
financial inclusion. A full 100%of Brazilian municipalities are

(24:24):
served by some type of facilitythat delivers a basic set of
financial services. If you knowhow geographically large Brazil
is, you'll get a good sense ofhow extraordinary this is. And
now we have the FinTechrevolution, which has played a
major role to further advancefinancial inclusion in Brazil.
FinTech companies which haveflourished there have changed

(24:46):
the way Brazilians buy, save,invest and access a wide range
of financial services. They aresuccessfully using alternative
consumer data and existingnetworks to offer millions of
Brazilians their first bankaccounts and financial products.
So a vast network of some typeof financial facility across the

(25:07):
whole country, combined with asuccessful set of cash transfer
programmes and a favourableregulatory environment that have
allowed for the domesticfinancial system to evolve with
new technologies are all keyfactors behind Brazil's
financial inclusion successstory. And the success of Brazil
matters. It matters because whathappens with the financial

(25:30):
inclusion in Brazil is importantnot just for Brazil alone.
Neighbouring countries are andwill fashion their plans to
promote financial inclusionbased on what they see in
Brazil.

YS Chi (25:41):
So who else is in this shadow and excluded that need to
still come out into theinclusion?

Carolina Costa (25:52):
That's a great question. And I think that the
segments of the population arelarge and vast, you have those
that are in rural areas thatperhaps have a much harder
access to financial services,you also have the youth, young
people that are now you know,coming at age and entering at or

(26:14):
seeking to enter the financialecosystem. You also have, you
know, maybe retirees or veteransor migrants. So it really is a
broad set of citizens ofindividuals that have been in
the shadow, but as the financialsystem has evolved over the

(26:36):
years, may now have theopportunity to enter it.

YS Chi (26:41):
So you're so excited about the good things that have
happened in Brazil, and youbelieve that this is going to be
a role model that neighbouringcountries are going to be able
to learn from. Are therespecific things that we at RELX
is doing to help with this?

Carolina Costa (27:00):
Yeah that's a great question. And you know, as
we've covered here, financialinclusion in Latin America is
evolving at a rapid pace, due tomany interconnected factors,
short term ones, such as theshock caused by the global
pandemic, that acceleratedadoption of digital services, as
well as long term ones,including regulatory changes

(27:22):
linked to the use of big dataanalytics and machine learning,
that impact the financialsystem. Collectively YS, these
factors have generated largeamounts of alternative data, and
here's where LexisNexis, whichis part of the RELX family plays
an important role, and by doingso LexisNexis helps financial
service businesses expand theirofferings to credit worthy

(27:46):
consumers who had fallen outsideof traditional scoring profiles,
for instance. The outcome isthat multiple segments of the
population, including theunderserved groups can now have
better access to credit. Let megive you an example of a great
partnership LexisNexis has witha Mexican based player.

YS Chi (28:07):
Mexico, not Brazil, okay.

Carolina Costa (28:09):
Not Brazil. Yes, let's let's move to another
important market in the regionand this partnership is really
great to highlight in ourconversation today. So Lexis has
partnered with a microfinancecompany called Kubo Financiero.
Kubo is focused on enablingcustomers to achieve their
personal financial goals byoffering innovative and

(28:31):
accessible financial products.
Kubo turned to LexisNexisbecause it wanted a solution to
help increase credit opportunityacross their customer base while
effectively controlling defaultrisk. LexisNexis gave Kubo the
advantage of a holistic viewinto an individual's digital
identity reputation, they haverescoring and unique biometric

(28:51):
footprints, so adding a layer ofalternative data and more
productivity intelligence tolending decisions. It's just a
great example of a globalcompany LexisNexis partnering
with a locally based player tohelp drive financial inclusion
in the market that needs it somuch.

YS Chi (29:15):
Well, I remember I think you might have been there with
me, when we were meeting withthe former president of Mexico,
and I had the opportunity toraise financial inclusion. And
boy, he jumped on it with hisministers about how important it
was for Mexico. It sounds likewe are doing something very
tangible there.

Carolina Costa (29:34):
Absolutely, we are. You know, financial
inclusion is a win-win foreveryone. Right. And I think
more and more countries andpolicymakers are realising that
in placing financial inclusionas a pillar of economic growth
in the same level as let's say,you know, education and

(29:55):
healthcare.

YS Chi (29:56):
So, where are we able to next target in Latin America,
beyond Brazil and Mexico?

Carolina Costa (30:05):
We are looking to Colombia, Argentina and Chile
as our markets for growth inthat region. And again, matching
and linking what policymakersare seeking to do, as well as
what we can offer to localplayers. And I think that's
where, you know, we can reallydrive impactful and meaningful

(30:27):
change.

YS Chi (30:29):
A true unique contribution for us. Absolutely.
So there's always whenever wetalk about data that that
concerns consumers, a group ofpeople who will raise flag and
say, What about privacy? How isthe perception of this privacy
issue in South America? We'veheard about it in the US and

(30:51):
other developed markets. Be verycurious to have your tell us how
this is perceived in yourregion.

Carolina Costa (30:57):
That is also front and centre, in the minds
of policymakers and civilsociety in general. And you're
absolutely right to raise thisbecause as the financial
ecosystem has evolved over theyears, and so rapidly, in the
past few years with emergingtechnologies, artificial

(31:19):
intelligence and machinelearning, the internet of
things, right. You have thisenormous amount of data, and
with that, you have to look intodata privacy and the protection
of data privacy. So across LatinAmerica there are regulations
for data privacy, and we as aprivate sector player, seek to

(31:44):
not only comply with them, wecomply with them, but really, to
ensure that our products andsolutions match what
policymakers are seeking to dowith data privacy, because to
us, these types of regulationsare quite important. And they
benefit the system as a whole.

YS Chi (32:05):
Right, and we just need to always be aware that data can
be used for good. That's right,without having to to cause
alarm. This is terrific. Well,we heard from Steve about a
developed country now we heardfrom you Catalina about the
developing world and how in bothcases, financial inclusion plays

(32:29):
a critical role in in equity,inclusion, growth. And this is
very exciting that LexisNexisand RELX as a whole can make a
unique contribution. Thank youso much for joining us,
Carolina.

Carolina Costa (32:43):
Thank you YS it's been great. I appreciate
it. Appreciate the opportunityand sharing some of these
thoughts with you today.

YS Chi (32:50):
Well, thank you to our listeners for tuning in. Don't
forget to hit subscribe on yourpodcast app to get new episodes
as soon as they're released.
Thank you, everybody.