Is there a Rule of Law crisis?

To mark the launch of our third series of Unique Contributions, our host, YS Chi, explores the issue of the Rule of Law and how to make it universal and relevant for everyone. YS Chi asks Ian McDougall, general counsel of LexisNexis Legal & Professional and president of LexisNexis Rule of Law Foundation, if there's a Rule of Law crisis? And if so, how do we maintain trust, the glue that keeps it all together. 

In a further conversation, YS Chi talks to Alison Manchester, vice president of product management at LexisNexis Legal & Professional. In the context of a loss of confidence in the voting system in the US, Alison talks about the LexisNexis US Voting Laws and Legislation Center, a free resource that allows everyone to see first-hand all voting law activities that are happening at state and federal levels, without relying on rumour or social media. 

This podcast is brought to you by RELX.

Episode Transcript

YS Chi (00:00):
The Unique Contributions podcast is brought to you by
RELX. Find out more about us byvisiting relx.com.

Ian McDougall (00:09):
Corruption levels, life expectancy, even
infant mortality rates, all ofthese things improve when the
rule of law is stronger. Andthat's the message that we have
to get out. We have to stoptalking to a small community and
start talking to people aboutthe why.

YS Chi (00:41):
Hello, and welcome to series three of Unique
Contributions, a RELX podcast,where we bring you closer to
some of the most interestingpeople from around our business.
I'm YS Chi and I'll be exploringwith my guests some of the
biggest issues that matter tosociety. In this series, I also
want to investigate the issue oftrust. How can we build trust in

(01:04):
data and technology and helpcreate a world that works for
everyone? I'm very excited todive in. And today my first
guest is Ian McDougall, who isthe Executive Vice President and
General Counsel of LexisNexisLegal and Professional here at
RELX. He's also president ofLexisNexis Rule of Law

(01:25):
Foundation, and has a personalcommitment to advance the rule
of law. Ian travels the world toeducate groups on the element of
the rule of law, and theimportance of a strong rule of
law for economic growth, stablesocieties, and other outcomes
such as enhanced lifeexpectancy. So Ian, given

(01:45):
everything happening in theworld right now, I've heard many
people say we are at ageopolitical crossroads. In your
opinion, is there a rule of lawcrisis today?

Ian McDougall (01:56):
Well, hello, YS, and hello, everyone. First of
all, I'd say by way ofbackground that the rule of law,
I think has always been underthreaten in one way or another
since the idea was first thoughtabout, I know we're going to get
a chance to talk about what therule of law means a little
later, but the important point Iwant to make here is a very

(02:18):
historical concept dates backfar into history. So anyone who
studies human history will knowthe rule of law has been under
attack at different stages inhistory. If we look back at
history, we see advances andthen there are dark periods,
World War Two, the Cold War,coups, abuses. But I'd say we're
in a far better place now thanwe've been in history. So the

(02:40):
way I look at it is two stepsforward and one step backwards
quite regularly.

YS Chi (02:45):
And you are looking back at history. And as we all know,
history repeats itself. Arethere any patterns that you
actually see Ian when it stepsback? And when we finally make
steps forward?

Ian McDougall (02:59):
Yes, I think there is a pattern that recurs.
And that is the emergence andreemergence of complacency. The
moment that we start to feelthis rule of law thing that's
done and dusted, we can move onto something else, is the very
moment that it comes back tobite us. And so I don't believe

(03:21):
there is ever going to be a timein the future where we can
actually just rub our handstogether and say, right, great,
that's done. I think it's goingto be a case of permanent
vigilance, constantly protectingand advancing the rule of law.

YS Chi (03:36):
So Ian, as a world traveller yourself, how do you
see the world today we live inwhere communication is
completely global, right?
Movement is global. Everybodyknows what's happening on the
other side of the globe? And sohow does that affect the rule of
law being able to make advances?

(03:58):
Does it help to see or does ithurt?

Ian McDougall (04:02):
Yeah, I think, unfortunately, I'm gonna give
you the answer, which is bothare true again. To me, education
is always the foundation ofchange. You have to know what
the issue is, before you canfind the right solution. So
many, including the legalprofession, talk about the rule
of law, and many don't evenunderstand what it is. And, you

(04:25):
know, I often joke that if Iasked five lawyers to define the
rule of law, I'd get sixdifferent answers. But there's
still a massive flaw in the waywe engage with the non legal
community. The rule of lawsounds like some kind of
academic technical subject andwe confine ourselves to saying
to people, this is the rightthing to do, just trust us. It

(04:45):
is where I think those days aregone, particularly with social
media and and international kindof technology, changing the way
that people view information andthe way that they accept or
don't accept information. So nowwe have to double our efforts,
we have to explain to people whythe rule of law is the right
thing to do, why it's not onlythe right thing to do, but why

(05:08):
it's also in their self interestto do it.

YS Chi (05:10):
So I'm going to shortly ask you that question. But
before that, I'd like to put youon the spot one more time. You
know, rule of law says followingthe law, right? So if two
different communities define twodifferent rules, is it
sufficient that each of thosecommunities follow their unique

(05:34):
set of rules?

Ian McDougall (05:35):
Well, so what I'm going to do then is to define
what we mean by the rule of law,because there is a difference
between laws and the rule oflaw, it's perfectly possible to
have a system of governancewhere you have laws, but that
doesn't necessarily mean you'vegot the rule of law. So if I can
just take a moment to explainwhat we mean by the rule of law,

(05:56):
and I think that will answeryour question. So I mentioned
before, it's a long history.
And, you know, some time ago, wewanted to find a way of
producing a universal, auniversally applicable
definition of the rule of law.
And so instead of sitting in aroom with a group of wise
people, we said, let's look atwhat societies around the world

(06:18):
have understood the rule of lawto mean, even if that expression
was never actually used, whatare the core underlying
principles we can apply to anypolitical system, any socio
economic context, and we lookedat Hammurabi code, the Juris
Civilis Upanishad, writings ofHindu thought, Arabic, Middle
Ages, scholarship, Plato, theMagna Carta, but what we came

(06:42):
down to is four consistentthemes that come through.
Equality before the law, anindependent judiciary,
transparency of the law, youhave to know what it is to be
bound by it, and access toremedy. So my point there, once
I kind of explained that is tosay, we don't actually comment
on a specific law, this law,that law, good law, bad law,

(07:06):
comparative law in that way,what we talk about is that if
you implement those four themes,your society will benefit. And
the reason why that's important,if I can just say is that, that
enables me to be non political.
I don't have to enter thepolitical fray. We've defined
the rule of law as somethingthat's non political. That means
I can speak to everybody. And Ithink that's, that's really

(07:31):
important. So we deliberatelydon't comment on this particular
law, that particular law, whatwe say is, here is the framework
to make your society moresuccessful.

YS Chi (07:44):
And Ian, as you go around the world trying to help
each community conform to thesesets of definition. Are you
finding uniform acceptance ofthese four principles?

Ian McDougall (07:59):
Yes, absolutely.
I can say that for a couple ofreasons. One, and I say this as
a friend of the United Nationshaving had a seat on a United
Nations Committee, but thedefinitions, for example, that
the UN gives runs to six pages.
And that's useless to anypractical extent, what we do is
come up with these for nonpolitical, non society specific

(08:24):
pillars. And whenever I get thechance to explain to people what
the rule of law means, Iabsolutely promise you I am
greeted by a roomful of noddingheads. And the very next
question I get asked us, so howcan we help to do this?

YS Chi (08:39):
So give me an example of perhaps a community that is
dictatorial today, and how theyaccept these pillars?

Ian McDougall (08:47):
Well, so the problem is that so far, we
haven't yet seen a country, youknow, with that system of
government that follows the ruleof law, to the same extent that
say, somewhere like Norway does.
And the reason I mentionedNorway is that they are, number
one on the TransparencyInternational rule of law list.
What we tend to find is thatdictatorial governments, by

(09:09):
their nature, tend to abusethings like the independence of
the judiciary, or access toremedy. And as a result, they
harm themselves and they harmthe people that they're
governing.

YS Chi (09:23):
And exactly that point is that they would not agree
that these principles arecorrect then?

Ian McDougall (09:29):
Well, so here's here's the thing, that while we
haven't seen it yet, I'veexplained to many audiences
around the world it is perfectlycompatible to have a non
democratic system of governmentthat follows those four
principles of the rule of law.
And I was even if I can saythis, I was giving a speech at
the United Nations and anambassador stood up from a

(09:52):
country that I won't name andsaid, "We see this as a Trojan
horse for regime change". And Ireplied to him, pointing at the
screen behind me, which had thefour pillars up, I said, if you
can point to one of thoseprinciples that requires regime
change, then I'll agree withyou. And fortunately for me sat
down in silence. But that's theimportant point, I'm able to

(10:13):
have the same conversation withpractically any government
that's willing to listen,regardless of the way that they
currently govern themselves.

YS Chi (10:23):
This is very exciting.
Now, over the past 18 years thatI've been a part of the RELX
family, I've observed tremendousimpact that this work of rule of
law has had in all corners ofthe world, where our colleagues
from LexisNexis Legal andProfessional creatively and
passionately applied our uniqueskills and network in this
domain. It's very clear, Ianthat your team has given a lot

(10:45):
of thought to the concept, therule of law and how it has
changed throughout history.
Outside of the legal community,what is the general public's
understanding of this rule oflaw? And how do you make sure
that people understand on thestreet, that it matters to
everyone, not just to the court,the judges, the lawyers?

Ian McDougall (11:08):
Well, frankly, you've put your finger on the
biggest challenge that wecurrently face. You know, I
started by saying that our realchallenge is, is actually to
explain the why to people, whythis should matter to them, why
this should matter to the personwho's walking along the street
outside the building you're inright now, wherever you are in

(11:29):
the world, any building, that'sour biggest challenge. The way
we do it, of course, as I said,is by education, but more
importantly, by trying to makesure that people understand what
the connection is to them. Andthat's one of the great pieces
of work that Lexis has been ableto do, which is to link the rule
of law to various socio economicmeasures, per capita GDP,

(11:53):
corruption levels, lifeexpectancy, even infant
mortality rates, all of thesethings improve when the rule of
law is stronger. And that's themessage that we have to get out.
We have to stop talking to asmall community and start
talking to people about the why.

YS Chi (12:10):
Yes, in fact, the small community of of zealous, you
know, passionate, people get it,and they use it from different
angles, right? One theme that Iwant to bring to the discussion
right now is the concept oftrust, where the trust is the
glue that holds everythingtogether. Your definition of

(12:31):
rule of law is very appealing.
But you don't have to talk aboutdemocracy or human rights.
Right. So please, elaborate.

Ian McDougall (12:40):
So I know it is a question that that comes up
quite a lot when I give a talkabout this subject. And you
know, democracy and human rightsare two notable absences from
other people's standarddefinitions. But let me explain
very briefly why that's thecase. The first thing is
democracy. Now, I'm going tofirst of all give you what is a

(13:04):
technical answer to thisdefinitional answer, you cannot
have something in the definitionthat harms the very thing you
are trying to define. And thereare plenty of occasions
throughout history, even modernhistory, even very recent
history, where democracyactually actively harms the rule
of law. And you can think, forexample, of very, very popular,

(13:27):
some people call them populistgovernments, whose open
manifesto states that they willinterfere with the independence
of the judiciary, for example,or will somehow restrict access
to certain rights. All of thesethings happen sometimes with
popular support. And the otherthing that's absent is human

(13:48):
rights. And the reason for thatis all rights are dependent upon
the rule of law, not the otherway around, to have rights, to
have a system, you have to havethe foundation of the rule of
law. If there's no rule of law,there are no human rights. If
there's no contract system,there's no democracy is nothing.
You can only enforce these kindsof rights, if you have an

(14:11):
independent judiciary, treatingyou equally with transparent
laws, giving you access toremedy these are the things that
are necessary. Even if you wantdemocracy, for example, if you
want to have a fully functioningdemocracy, you need that system
to underpin it. And if I canjust say as well, you'll note
I've not used the word justiceat any point in this. And that's

(14:32):
because justice is also aconcept that's dependent upon
the principles I've outlined.
It's built on all the fourpillars. So I say the rule of
law is the system that deliversjustice, not the other way
around.

YS Chi (14:46):
So then, how does your team and everyone at RELX who's
involved help speak to thestreet as opposed to the experts
or the committed?

Ian McDougall (15:01):
Yes. So, first of all, one of the most powerful
things that we've done issomething that I think you'll be
talking about in a little while,which is the US voting law
initiative. Now, that's anexample of something where we
are taking information andmaking it freely available to
whoever wants to use it. Anotherexample, which is one of our

(15:23):
biggest contributions is theeyeWitness to Atrocities app, a
fantastic innovation, which isfreely available for everyone to
use. It's an app which isdownloadable upon people's
smartphones, and enables them torecord things like human rights,
atrocities or crimes againsthumanity. And it it, it gets

(15:44):
sent to a Lexis server, it getsreviewed by a panel of human
rights lawyers from theInternational Bar Association.
And here's the amazing thing, itleaves no trace on the user's
phone that it was ever used. Soif some nasty security service
comes along, grabs it, there'sno evidence that that phone was
the cause of the incriminatingvideo. And here's how that's

(16:09):
directly helped. That freelyavailable app contributed to
convictions within a year of itsrelease of two people in the
Democratic Republic of Congo forwar crimes.

YS Chi (16:21):
Right? And it is right now being used as we speak in
other places.

Ian McDougall (16:25):
Yes, yes, exactly. In fact, since the
conflict in Ukraine, started,there have been over 10,000
submissions received by Lexisfrom the eyeWitness app,

YS Chi (16:37):
Indeed, and yet, when this was first mentioned, to
many lawmakers and rule makers,throughout the European Union,
they were completely unaware.

Ian McDougall (16:49):
Yes, indeed. And we have a big challenge ahead of
us, you know, awareness. As Isay, education is the biggest
challenge we have. I mean, meand my team spend a lot of our
time going out talking aboutthis, you know, literally to any
audience that is prepared to, tolisten to us. So for example, a
recent speech I was able to givewas at the British American

(17:10):
Business Association in NewYork. And, you know, a lot of
the most significant companiesin the world were there. And
many of them were putting theirhands up saying, how do we help?
How do we get involved in this?

YS Chi (17:23):
Ian, you've been doing this thing for a long time to
know that some of the best waysto educate are the next
generation as opposed to puttingour hopes on the current
generation? Right. Yeah. So arethere alliances that you foresee
that will help educate the nextgeneration on this rule of law

(17:43):
so that they are much more awarethan we are?

Ian McDougall (17:47):
Yeah, I mean, because we are very involved,
obviously, in the legalprofession, a lot of our
contacts come through that. So,for example, we helped to create
the Young Lawyers Committee ofthe International Bar
Association. And we've done thesame for other associations. In
other words, to bring younglawyers in at an early stage to
these kinds of discussions.
We're also very proud of ourwork that we're doing with the

(18:11):
historically black colleges inthe United States, where there
are a number of people workingon projects to erase systemic
racism in the US justice system.
And all of these acts, all ofthese connections, I believe,
are creating wonderfuladvocates, from the younger

(18:32):
generation

YS Chi (18:33):
That's great. Ian, I'm very curious, personally, how
did you get involved so deeplyand so passionately about this
important area?

Ian McDougall (18:43):
Well, it's interesting, because I consider
myself to have a veryoverdeveloped sense of justice.
And what I mean by that is froma very, very young age, I was
touched by a particular storythat I read when I was 10 years
old, actually, I was touched bya particular story that I read
in the UK, which was about amiscarriage of justice, and the

(19:06):
person at the time, the UK hadthe death penalty. So an
innocent person was hung, as aresult of that miscarriage of
justice, and it reallyemotionally affected me as a
young person. And from thatpoint on, I kind of became very
passionate about this kind ofsubject and, and trying to make

(19:26):
the world a better place throughthe foundation. I believe that
once you get the foundation,right, you've got a much better
chance of building a strongerbuilding. And so that was really
the origin of my interest in thesubject. And then of course,
being able to join Lexis, whichis just an absolutely fantastic
opportunity to play a leadingrole in the legal profession.

YS Chi (19:49):
Well, the story is clearly very personal, but it's
more than, you know, aninspiring incident that took you
down this path of being the suchamazing flagbearer and the
impact that we're having, Imean, you cannot walk around
LexisNexis Legal andProfessional and have anyone who

(20:11):
doesn't understand what wereally believe in.

Ian McDougall (20:15):
Yes, it's wonderful. And everyone across
Lexis feels this way. I thinkit's, I very often I say to
audiences that there is nocompany. As such, there are
11,000 people around the worldwanting to do something good for
the world. And that's really theway I look at it.

YS Chi (20:36):
And fortunately, we have another 25,000 or so people in
the sister companies all withinRELX that feel exactly the same
way about other issues likescience and education and
health, and so on and so forth.
Well, Ian, thank you so much forjoining us. But more
importantly, thank you for whatyou've been doing all these
years leading this importantactivity for us.

Ian McDougall (20:59):
Thank you, thank you very much.

YS Chi (21:09):
Like Ian my next guest helps RELX promote the rule of
law. Alison Manchester is VicePresident of Product Management
at LexisNexis Legal andProfessional, she has made some
incredible contributions to thecompany throughout her 34 years
here. That's right, I think Ifinally found someone who has
worked at RELX longer thanmyself! Alison's work at

(21:30):
LexisNexis Legal andProfessional has been a vital
fusion of technology with thepractice of law. So before we
talk about the exciting newproject you recently launched,
let's give listeners somebackground. Having been at
LexisNexis for over 30 years,both you and the company have
gone through many transitions,right. Starting off as an

(21:51):
attorney editor, you have nowsettled into a product
management position, developingwhat we call technology of law.
What do you mean by that?

Alison Manchester (22:00):
Hi YS. Yes, great to speak with you this
morning. I began with Lexis asan attorney editor back 34 years
ago, as you say, and my initialjob was reading and analysing
court cases, to understand howthe new case law impacted prior

(22:21):
law. And back in those days, wecaptured that analysis on little
slips of paper, believe it ornot, and we gathered those up
and those slips of paper wereultimately, our so called
database, and we createdreference books out of that
material. And I've had theopportunity, working at Lexis to
see that entire trajectory fromthat time, up through moving to

(22:44):
data processing, where we usedcomputer punch cards to capture
data, to using desktopcomputers, and digital
databases. And now fast forwardto the present day, where we're
leveraging cutting edgetechnologies like machine
learning, data science, to dothat work that was done on
paper. So technology law to meis all about developing those

(23:06):
really advanced solutions, sothat we make lawyers or
researchers lives easier andtheir jobs more effective. And
today, our digital repositories,at Lexis contain multi millions
of documents. And so it's reallya challenging task for people
doing research to get throughall of that. And what we do is
provide those tools andcapabilities so that lawyers and

(23:29):
researchers can pull out trends,understand the data and really
get to their answers morequickly.

YS Chi (23:34):
So I remember when LexisNexis for Microsoft Word
was launched. It was veryexciting. Can you tell us a
little bit about that?

Alison Manchester (23:42):
Yes, I was one of the inventors of that
product. And I was reallyexcited to be a part of that, we
had a great team. That wasreally a nice marriage of the
technology, presented byMicrosoft, it was embedded
within Microsoft Word and ourexpertise at Lexis around
content and legal analysis,legal information. And so we

(24:05):
combined our researchcapabilities within Microsoft
Word, and allowed people to doresearch from their document as
they were performing their tasksday to day, which made for a
much more effective way to dotheir work. And that's something
we're all about today as well.
And that product today iscurrently incorporated within
our our platform Lexis+.

YS Chi (24:27):
Right, and there are many of these iterations of
technology advancement that weare implementing. So where do
you get the ideas from? Do youjust go out there and listen to
all the lawyers or do they giveyou feedback? How do you start
these ideas?

Alison Manchester (24:43):
The ideas come from our customers. First
and foremost, we have a reallyextensive programme led by our
UX team, but our product team isinstrumental in that as well,
around listening to ourcustomers, and gathering that
feedback, and understanding whattheir needs are in doing their
tasks day to day. So we look forthose pain points, those

(25:05):
problems that they're reallyhaving challenges solving. And
we try to come up with solutionsfor them. And then we leverage
those customers as we go throughthe entire development cycle. So
we're getting feedback all theway along. From the time an idea
comes to mind to puttingpictures on paper to define the
concept to, at the end of theday, testing the final product

(25:28):
so that people can take a lookand tell us if it's really
hitting the mark in terms ofwhat they need.

YS Chi (25:32):
Gotcha. I think that this process is gonna be going
to be going on for a long timeas technology really enhances
productivity. Today, I want totalk about how the technology of
law has been applied tosomething called LexisNexis US
Voting Laws and LegislationCenter. Since a couple of years

(25:53):
ago, we've seen a loss ofconfidence in the voting system
in the US from claims ofelection fraud, to scrutiny over
laws that restrict votingrights? With all that in the
background. How did LexisNexisUS Voting Law Center, go from
being an idea to a reality?

Alison Manchester (26:11):
Well, I really have to give credit,
first of all, to Mike Walsh forputting forward the idea and
rounding us up to put it intoimplementation. It was really a
project that he wanted topursue. And he worked with Nigel
Roberts, who is our head ofGlobal Associations, and part of
our rule of law team, one of thefounders, who then called me,

(26:34):
because my role at Lexisinvolves primary law, and
primary law content, includingcase law and statutes,
regulations, etc. So they calledme and I thought it was a
fantastic project. It'ssomething that is near and dear
to my heart, I think the rule oflaw initiative is extremely
important across the globe. Andso I was excited to be part of

(26:57):
it. And I certainly didn't havethe knowledge or capability to
do this all by myself. And so Igathered up a group of experts
who were volunteers on thisproject. We had over 50 people
who volunteered to work on thisparticular initiative from
various parts of the company,including technology, data
science, product management,user experience, and design,

(27:21):
editorial, and many other areasacross the company. And we used
the methodologies that we use ona commercial side of the
business to take this ideaforward. So just to illustrate,
one of the ideas that we use,day to day in developing
concepts is the Amazon WorkingBackwards process. And if people

(27:41):
haven't heard about that, it'ssomething that Amazon uses to
drive innovation within thecompany. We had an opportunity a
couple of years back to workwith the Amazon team. And they
taught us how to implement that.
So in this voting law project,we used this process, which
involves taking a concept andthen leaping forward into the
future, and imagining how thatultimate concept would play out

(28:05):
and become a real product. Andthen the end result of that is
that you draft a press release,and define exactly what this
thing would be if it were allbuilt and ready to go. So with
voting low project, we did justthat. We had a workshop, we
talked about the concept anddefined it. And then we tried to
fully define it through thepress release that we wrote,

(28:26):
which was a draft thatultimately became a roadmap for
development of the project as wewent forward.

YS Chi (28:34):
So tell me, is this unique? Or are there other
people trying to do this? Youjust do it better? Or tell me a
little bit about where this sitscontextually?

Alison Manchester (28:44):
Well, I think we, at Lexis are uniquely
positioned to do something likethis, because we have an
unmatched repository oflegislative and regulatory data,
as well as court data and legalinformation. So we have this
repository of data that isunequal and we can provide that
as a part of this initiative.
There are a couple of otherwebsites out there that do

(29:08):
similar things. They giveupdates on the status of voting
law across the country, they maygive roundups of what's
happening, current events, thatkind of thing. Generally
speaking, they don't give youthe laws themselves. And they
don't have the level of detailand the source documents
available that we provide topeople, as well as some of the

(29:28):
features that we provide aswell. And in fact, we not only
give people the laws themselves,but we keep those updated. So if
there are changes, or new thingsgoing on, we can include those
and update those on the sitewithin a day or so which is
really unique. And again, indoing that we're leveraging all
of our capabilities withinLexisNexis which involves being
a market leading collectionoperation, collecting from

(29:52):
courts and legislatures andagencies around the country on a
daily, weekly hourly basis andthen updating that accordingly.
So we were able to leverage allof those capabilities in
creating this voting law site,which just to illustrate how
much content is there - Today,we have about 40,000 legal
documents on the voting lawsite. And we're adding to that

(30:15):
constantly.

YS Chi (30:18):
So this is a perfect example of what we call unique
contribution, isn't it? Becauseit's the stuff that we do daily
anyway. And we just simplyre-leverage it.

Alison Manchester (30:29):
That's absolutely right. It's really
our core expertise that's beenleveraged to make this voting
law site a reality. And it'sreally exciting.

YS Chi (30:38):
Yeah, I bet. So one of the main issues with information
outlet these days, as you know,is about trust. As the US
becomes more and more polarised,people are increasingly
sceptical about the objectivityof the things they see in the
media and the news. And this isnot, of course, unique to the
United States today. For a topicas sensitive as voting laws

(31:01):
claims of bias are especiallyprevalent. So how do you ensure
that the centre is unbiased?

Alison Manchester (31:09):
We have spent a lot of time talking about
that, as you can imagine. Ourmission was to make sure that
the content was fact based, andnot partisan in any way, and
really give an unbiased factbased view to the public, so
that we could answer thosequestions that people might have
as they are looking at changesto voting law across the

(31:31):
country. So to do that, firstand foremost, we relied on user
feedback to assess what we weredoing and tell us whether we
were incorporating any partisanslant one way or the other. And
one example of the user feedbackthat we got in developing this
product was, as we were lookingat the text to put on the

(31:53):
website and the descriptions ofthe features and functionality,
one of the terms we were usingwas "voting rights", quote,
unquote. And it was pointed outto us that voting rights can be
seen as a partisan thing. Is ita right or is it not a right?
And so we determined that ratherthan use that term, we would
take it out. And we juststrictly talk about voting

(32:15):
legislation. So just oneillustration of how that worked.

YS Chi (32:18):
That's right. And tell me a little bit about this thing
called the ranking system.

Alison Manchester (32:23):
Yes, that is something that we're currently
working on. And it's somethingthat has been a real challenge,
because again, we're trying tomake sure that this is
absolutely non partisan. And theidea is to rank the states and
the laws within the states, bothas they currently stand, and as
things change over time. And asyou can imagine doing so, I

(32:45):
think it's going to be reallytricky to do that in a way
that's truly fact based andnonpartisan. So I don't know
that we've cracked that nutquite yet. We're still talking
with customers about thatcurrently, and designing
proposal, a test system that wewill take out to customers and
continue to get feedback untilwe get it right.

YS Chi (33:06):
Right. I'm excited to see how this project will
empower voters throughout thecountry. In the best case
scenario, how will this centreactually help US voters?

Alison Manchester (33:17):
Well, hopefully it will give people a
place to go and see the lawfirsthand. There are lots of
news stories. And there are lotsof conversations that take place
on social media. And peopletoday, I think don't know
whether it's true or not. Theydon't know really what the truth
is many times. And so what wehope to do with the site is give

(33:41):
people a fact based free, freeto the public, place to go to
really validate those thingsthat they hear, and make sure
that they can understand reallywhat is going on. What are the
facts as they stand? What arethe changes that are taking
place, and educate themselves sothat they are working with
factual information and notrumour or bias or anything else.

(34:05):
So just an example of that, if Iwere someone in New York, and
say I had been on social mediaand had heard that people who
were incarcerated were allowedto vote, well, I could then go
to our voting law site, I couldlook at the map that's on the
first page and drill in to thelaws that are currently existing

(34:28):
and in progress in New York. AndI would see that that law, while
it was introduced has not beenpassed. And it is not yet
enacted in any way. So you know,it's just an example of what you
can do with the site to just seeexactly what's going on
firsthand. You can go to thedocuments, you can go to see the

(34:48):
people involved. We show thesponsor information for bills as
they're going through thecommittee process. So you can
see exactly what's happeningwithin legislatures in the
States and also at the federallevel and you can only see
firsthand the activity withoutrelying on rumour or social
media?

YS Chi (35:04):
How will you evolve this? I mean, this is such a new
service, right? Can you tell ussome roadmap to where you want
to take forward?

Alison Manchester (35:15):
Yes, absolutely. In fact, we are
conducting more customerdiscussions, user discussions
now with people who have usedthe site. And we've had some
really positive reaction, by theway, we've had a number of
people reach out and offer theirhelp and input after they've
used the sites, we're followingup, we are getting their
feedback as to what they wouldlike to see what would be most

(35:37):
important for them. And by them,I mean, it's members of the
general public, it'slegislators, it's journalists,
all types of different peoplewho are finding value in this
site. And so we're taking thatfeedback and looking at what
they're telling us and mappingout the next phase. And at this
point, it's still in progress inplanning. But we're thinking

(36:00):
that we would want to add somecourt case content. So as the
courts interpret the laws thatwe're displaying on the site,
we'll want to cover thatinterpretation as well. And we
want to add some of the stateconstitutions, because some of
the state constitutions alsoincorporate voting laws within
those provisions, you know, it'sunique state to state. So those

(36:23):
are two examples of things wehope to include.

YS Chi (36:25):
Yeah, indeed, this is not just at the national level,
but at the state level, as well,and sometimes even down to the
municipalities. So this will bevery exciting to see how it
evolves. And together withthings like the app for
atrocities, you know, these aresome truly unique contributions
to our society, by leveragingthe content, the expertise of

(36:48):
technology that we use everyday, and that this really
benefits the society overall.
Well, I can't thank you enoughfor joining us, Alison today.
And I hope that you will give uscontinually the exciting
improvements that you're goingto be making to this Center.

Alison Manchester (37:07):
Well, thank you very much. This is a passion
project for sure for all of usworking on it. And it's really
been a pleasure to be part ofthis. We're all very, very
excited about being part of therule of law initiative. So I
really appreciate the timetoday.

YS Chi (37:20):
Thank you again. And thank you to our listeners for
tuning in. Don't forget to hitsubscribe button on your podcast
app to get new episodes as soonas they're released. Thank you
for listening.