October 30, 2024 • 54 mins
What if the Halloween traditions we've come to love are rooted in ancient fears and legends? Join us as we kick off season three of "The United States of PTSD" with a thrilling exploration of Halloween's origins, tracing its journey from Celtic rituals to the influence of Irish Catholics in America. With Julia taking a break, Cora steps in, bringing her delightful stories of crafting unique Halloween costumes for her kids—imagine a Rhode Island hot wiener and a cozy shark roaming the streets! As we reminisce about the creativity of past Halloweens and the impact of COVID-19 on social gatherings, our enthusiasm for the holiday remains undiminished. Together, we plan to celebrate Halloween across different cultures, eager to embrace the spooky season in all its forms.
Ever heard of the notorious razor blade in the apple myth? We unravel its urban legend status while examining the real fears that reshaped Halloween safety in the 1970s and 1980s, spurred by the Tylenol murders and other tragedies. Our discussion highlights how societal fears often target strangers, even though most harm comes from familiar faces. Cora and I delve into infamous cases of treat tampering by family members, challenging our perception of safety in the festive season. We share childhood tales of Bloody Mary and other eerie legends, exploring the thrill they bring to the Halloween experience.
Prepare for a spine-tingling journey through fear, phobias, and the paranormal. From horror movies inspired by societal unrest to the allure of ghost tours in Mystic, Rhode Island, our conversation uncovers the excitement of encountering the supernatural. Discover stories of Mercy Brown and the vampire panic in New England, where fear led to desperate measures amidst a tuberculosis outbreak. As we reflect on these chilling narratives, we consider their impact on cultural traditions and personal fears. Join us for a captivating episode filled with history, ghostly encounters, and an undying love for the spooky season.
https://uknow.uky.edu/research/uk-folklorist-explains-spellbinding-history-halloween
University of Kentucky
UK folklorist explains the spellbinding history of Halloween
https://doi.org/10.1007/s11199-019-01105-0
The Razor Blade in the the Apple: the Social Construction of Urban Legends
Joel Best and Gerald T. Horiuchi
Social Problems, Jun. 1985, Vol. 32, No. 5, pp 488-499
Oxford University Press on behalf of the Society for the Study of Social Problems
https://www.jstor.org/stable/800777
https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/phobias
https://www.rihs.org/have-mercy/
Oct 31, 2016
Rhode Island Historical Society
Jennifer L. Galpern, Research Associate/Special Collections
https://www.cnn.com/2024/10/28/politics/bernie-sanders-kamala-harris-israel-gaza/index.html
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/us-has-undeniable-complicity-gaza-war-killings-say-former-us-officials-2024-07-03/
Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!):
https://uppbeat.io/t/hartzmann/no-time-to-die
License code: S4CEQWLNQXVZUMU4
Artwork and logo design by Misty Rae.
Special thanks to Joanna Roux for editing help.
Special thanks to the listeners and all the wonderful people who helped listen to and provide feedback on the episode's prerelease.
Please feel free to email Matt topics or sug
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
This podcast is not intended to serve as therapeutic
advice or to replace anyprofessional treatment.
These opinions belong to us anddo not reflect any company or
agency.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Hello everybody and welcome back to another episode
of the United States of PTSD.
This is going to be seasonthree, our first episode of
season three, and I want to justdo a quick announcement before
we get started.
So Julia is going to be takinga little bit of a break right
now.
She is going to be focusing alittle bit of a break right now.
She is going to be focusing onher private practice, which is
fantastic, and I want to thankher for all the work that she
(00:50):
did in season two.
So cora is now going to be theofficial co-host for season
three and the anticipated planis that this will go on until
about april of next year.
Cor, cora, correct, right?
And obviously Cora will havethe opportunity to stay if she
wants to afterwards.
If not, there is already a planfor season four.
(01:12):
So we are moving ahead and Iwant to thank all the supporters
we have.
We are at an all-time high fordownloads and listens and I'm
super excited about it.
And just a quick shout-out toWendy and Julia for helping to
get us this far.
And, cora, thank you for allthe amazing research you have
been doing to make this evenbetter.
(01:33):
It just keeps getting better andbetter and better.
So, and all the great guestsbecause we've had in the past, I
want to thank all of them aswell.
And happy Halloween everybody.
My goal is to get this.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
I think we're going to try to have this released on
Halloween, because I think thatwould be awesome Instead of
Monday, which we usually releaseon.
So Cora do October 31st, and itwas actually a sort of New
Year's Eve.
People believed that that was aday when the veil between
humans and the spirit world wasthe thinnest during the
agricultural cycle, and it wasalso a day when animals were
slaughtered.
So I think we get a lot of oursort of blood and gore from that
(02:32):
tradition of slaughteringanimals.
We have written records fromthe ninth century in Ireland
that date back to celebrationsof Halloween, but we actually
believe that it happened a lotsooner.
We just don't have records toprove that it was in place.
As Catholicism came into Celticregions it became adapted into
(03:00):
Christianity.
November 1st is All Saints Day,so the Christian church kind of
took it, took a little spin onit and made October 31st the All
Hallows Eve, and so that's howwe get the name Halloween.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Thank you, cora, for that.
It's interesting when I went toRome and Greece you learn about
, especially at the Roman Forum,you get the history of how each
new religion that came on stolestuff from previous religions
and adapted it because theycouldn't get people to believe
something new.
So they would take the oldthings and then they would turn
(03:40):
them into new versions ofcurrent things.
Turn them into new versions ofcurrent things.
Samhain or Halloween is nodifferent than anything else.
To you know to try to take awaythe original meaning of that.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
Sure, and then actually from there we have
Great Britain.
Catholics started kind oftaking that tradition of mumming
, being in costumes, dressing upon Halloween, and the tradition
was that single people orchildren would go around and
they would knock on doors andthey would ask if the house
(04:13):
wanted a blessing and if thehouse said no, the house could
receive a trick, and if thehouse gave out a little bit of
drink or a little bit ofsomething to eat, the people
would send them a prayer or ablessing.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
Cora, do you dress up for Halloween?
Speaker 1 (04:30):
I'm a Halloween mom.
I make costumes.
I love making costumes for mykiddos.
This year, my daughter will bea Rhode Island hot wiener, oh my
God, that's awesome.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
Maybe we should give a little bit of a background on
that.
So Rhode Island and New Yorkare the only two states where
hot wieners are actually stillserved.
Yes, rhode Island has a big.
I mean they are fond of theirhot wieners.
I remember when I was in mycollege days, way back, when
there was a place in Providencewhere they actually would put
them on their arms.
Do you remember?
Speaker 1 (05:05):
that when they would like load them up and they're
like of course.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
I can't do that anymore now because of sanitary
reasons.
So funny, I love that.
So she's dressing up as a hotwiener.
What's the other one dressingup as?
Speaker 1 (05:16):
She's way more traditional.
She's got this really cozyshark costume.
Shark week yeah.
That's great Matt.
Do you like being dressed up?
Speaker 2 (05:27):
You know I love it and I used to throw big
Halloween parties every yearwhen I lived in Providence.
I would throw one that wasthemed every year too, so I
would have different themes.
I mean, we did things likeheaven and hell.
I did.
I think I was telling you andMike about this one called toxic
circus.
I did the seven deadly sins andI would always do food
(05:50):
associated with the theme, and Idid this largely by myself.
So I would spend lots of moneyand create dishes, for you know,
like when I did seven deadlysins, I did a dish for every
single sin that was at the party.
Unfortunately, covid put adamper on me throwing parties
and I think post COVID, peoplehave still been leery about
socializing.
I think they lost a lot oftheir skills during COVID and,
(06:12):
you know, I think just ingeneral, people are not as
reliable as they used to and, asyou know, throwing any sort of
party or event is a lot of moneyand when you do that and you
know people cancel at the lastminute or people don't show up,
it's incredibly frustrating.
So now I've decided what I'mgoing to do is just travel every
October for two weeks and gosomewhere in Europe, which is
what I've been doing I love that.
(06:33):
But to answer your originalquestion, I love Halloween.
It's my favorite holiday.
I wish it was Halloween allyear round.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
Well, you are not alone.
I have a funny statistic thisyear, or 2018, americans spent
or people in general spent $9billion on Halloween and an
estimate of $3.4 billion oncostumes alone.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
It's really close to the amount that people spent on
Christmas, right?
I think there was that onepoint where maybe I might be
misremembering this, but Ithought Halloween one year was
actually more profitable.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Because of how much people you know get into it.
You had brought up aninteresting well.
In your research you haddiscovered something about the
sexualization of Halloweencostumes among women, which you
know how many times I'vereferenced Mean Girls, but
that's also talked about inthere too, where the one time a
year it's okay for women todress provocatively.
(07:32):
I think you know.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
Yeah, so you know, traditionally costumes are kind
of like an opportunity forpeople to try on identities, to
try to be like understand whatit feels like to be somebody
else.
So I definitely think thatpeople enjoy being a little bit
prettier, going a little bitover the top.
(07:54):
But marketing in America hasreally targeted women and we
don't find a difference betweenthe teens and the adult women
when we're talking aboutmarketing and sexualized
costuming.
So as a parent, I find thatreally kind of disturbing.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
That's a whole.
I mean we could certainly spendan entire episode talking about
the over-sexualization but thenthe lack of sex education and
lack of awareness and how westill live in a very puritanical
country about don't talk aboutsex but like be as sexual as
possible.
But you know it's okay to gowatch them and get their head
blown off because that's youknow right.
I mean like seriously, likethat's how violence is great,
(08:35):
encouraged and God forbid wetalk about like nudity or sex,
but we'll show it as much as wecan.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
So that's, you know, pretty disturbing In the
research.
One of the other things Ithought was pretty interesting
was American urban legends andthe razor blade in the apple.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
That actually that happened, didn't it?
Or that's not a myth?
Right, that actually did happen, correct?
No, it did not happen.
Really, that's an urban legend,yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
It did not happen Really.
That's an urban legend, yeah.
So basically in America, theIrish Catholics in New York in
the 1900s started trick-orbecame like a very celebrated
holiday in America and peoplestarted dressing up all the time
(09:29):
.
In the 1950s it was especiallypopular and that's when kids are
going out trick or treatinglike completely alone without
any other adults.
But you also have.
But you also have so then inthe 70s what you have is people
social workers, health workerstalking about child abuse, which
you know was a really importantthing.
(09:51):
We started having laws madeagainst child labor laws and
things like that.
With trick-or-treating, peoplestarted getting like more
concerned that strangers couldpossibly hurt their children.
We don't know where the razorblade came from, but there are
no historic reports of a childbeing injured by a razor blade.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
That's fascinating.
I really thought that there wassome truth behind that.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
So the study I was looking at looked between 1958
and 1982.
During that period there were76 reports nationwide of some
sort of incident where a childpossibly could have got hurt by
a contaminated treat.
So in that time period you have1970 and 1971 with increases of
(10:41):
reports.
The highest report is 10.
So it really wasn't like a bigthing that was happening
nationally.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
You know what would be interesting if we compared
that to how many kids have beenon some sort of medication that
was recalled by big pharma forcausing problems or some sort of
health scares in kids, or evenlike the Tylenol crisis that
happened before, my guess isthose would be a lot higher than
the amount of kids that arehurt by trick-or-treating
(11:10):
Absolutely.
But you know it goes back to thewhole stranger danger thing too
right, like you know, we are sofocused on stranger danger when
the statistics show that it ismost likely family members or
relatives or friends who haveused kids and kidnap kids and
assault kids versus likeabsolute strangers.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
Yeah, and I'm so glad you brought all of that up,
matt, because that's exactlywhat happened.
So the other major spike we sawis in 1982.
It's one month after theTylenol murders, which I don't
know if everybody knows thatstory, but it happened in the
Chicago region.
A total of seven people diedafter taking Tylenol tablets.
(11:49):
Later on they found that theTylenol tablets had actually
been laced with potassiumcyanide and to this day the
culprit was never found.
They made a mass recall ofTylenol and everybody just had
to like dump it and get rid ofit and this event created a bill
, which was really good becausethat has increased safety for
(12:14):
all sorts of different productsthat we consume.
But the other thing that therewere two really famous cases
that happened about theHalloween treat tampering and
ironically enough, they wereboth family members that were
involved.
It wasn't stranger nature oranything like that.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Well, it's actually not like I mean.
When you look at the numbers,it isn't ironic, because that's
the I mean again.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
That's how it is.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
I mean we like to believe it's not.
I think part of that comes fromthe fear that we're vulnerable,
that we're vulnerable rightlike we are vulnerable to people
, mostly that we care about andthat are closest to us right and
instead of looking at that andaccepting it, we want to look
outside and say no, no, it's allthe people out there.
It's like not the people whoare close to me yeah, and that's
definitely what happened, um.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
One of the instances was an eight-year-old, um.
He ingested heroin with hisHalloween candy, but then it was
later found out that theHalloween candy had nothing to
do with it.
It was actually heroin that wasin his uncle's house.
So, unfortunately, thateight-year-old died and then the
second death involved another.
(13:20):
Oh, I'm sorry.
The first death was afive-year-old.
The second death was aneight-year-old.
He ingested Halloween candy andit was later found that his
father had contaminated it withpoison.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Wow his own father.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
That's horrifying.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
I know that's really gross On many levels.
Yeah, yeah, between you know,1958 and 1982, that's what this
major study was looking at wedon't have anything that tells
us about, like historicinformation about kids getting
hurt.
There's a couple that maybethey got hurt a little bit, but
(13:59):
nothing serious and definitelyno deaths.
And so if we look at thisexample as like urban legends,
they tend, like urban legends,tend to be oral, so it's just
stuff that we're talking about.
It tends to be human problemsrather than like the
supernatural and they're told asif they're true, which I have
definitely encountered,especially with this Like.
(14:22):
I remember my mom telling meall the time how, when she grew
up, there were, you know, kidsgetting hurt with apples and
blades and things like that.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Um, was that the biggest was that the biggest
urban legend you remember fromchildhood?
Speaker 1 (14:36):
there was bloody mary oh my gosh.
Yes, bloody, mary yeah, thatone was really scary to me for
those of you that I'm sureeverybody knows this.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
But for those of you that I'm sure everybody knows
this, but for those of you thatdon't know it, the legend is and
I think it's from Mary Queen ofScots right that if you go into
the mirror at night and youlight a candle and you say her
name three times, that sheappears and kills you or like
does something.
And did you ever do it?
Speaker 1 (15:01):
I was at a sleepover and some kids were doing it and
admittedly I just kind of walkedout slowly and they didn't
realize I was not there anymore.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
I have a funny, terrible story about that.
So my freshman year of collegeI was living on campus and one
of my roommates so I ended updating.
Later on he was terrified ofhorror movies and just
everything scary and we had goneout to see the movie Candyman.
So this was back the originalCandyman.
This was was back the originalCandyman.
This was a 92.
Candyman was very similar inthe sense that you would go into
the mirror and you would sayCandyman's name three times and
(15:32):
he would come and kill you.
And back in the college dorm wehad a suite with bathroom that
had like multiple stalls andshowers and all that stuff.
So he was in the bathroom, oneof the stalls, and I went and I
turned off the mirror and I saidCandyman three times and he was
up there screaming.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
Oh no.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
I was like, okay, that was a little terrible thing
that I did.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
Have you ever done any other kind of pranks during
Halloween?
Speaker 2 (16:01):
I don't think so.
I mean no, nothing I can thinkof.
I mean that one just stood outto me because I think we had
actually just seen the movie.
So that's what you know, that'swhat brought it up for me.
No, I think I'm more aboutdecorating and having the
festivities.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
I was doing the research because a lot of the
horror and the American Gothicthat's part of the American
culture right, it comes fromPuritans, the witch trials of
Salem and Americans actually puta bigger spin and focus on the
horror part.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
But the pagan rituals weren't spilling blood as
sacrifice or anything like that,like the only blood they had
was in relation to killinganimals for food right yeah, I
mean that they, many of theholidays that we celebrate, come
from pagan traditions that theyhave tried to just cover up and
steal as their own.
Many, many, many of them, ifnot all of them, and I think
(17:08):
that most people, I think, knowthis.
At that point you know it'sfunny you talk about horror
because I grew up on horrormovies.
I mean I would watch them.
This is all the time I would goout and watch horror movies.
You know, I think there'scertainly a lot of draw to it.
I remember there was a study onetime years ago and I looked for
(17:30):
it and I can't find it againthat said something about during
periods of civil unrest or whenour society isn't doing well,
that horror movies spike more,which I'm sure there's a sense
of trying to understand thedarker side, even when we did
that ghost tour the other day.
So, um, cora and my other, myother student, I took them to a
(17:50):
ghost tour for and dinner forcovering my vacation when I was
away and the guide had saidsomething about for the women
here, we know that you all likeserial killers.
Do you remember when she saidthat?
Or were you like, oh, I missedthat at the very beginning she
was.
She was talking about how allthe women like crime show
podcasts.
I don't know if it's just women, but I mean it certainly is.
(18:12):
A lot of people do like it, andI think I mentioned this before
the moms group that I ran for along time.
They all listened to crimeshows and murder shows because
there's almost this need tounderstand.
But we also, as a society, weglorify that shows because
there's this almost this need tounderstand but we also, as a
society, we glorify that.
I think there's a differencebetween horror and watching
something like freddy krueger or, you know, jason vorhees,
(18:35):
because you know it is sooutside of the realm of reality
that there's no chance thatthat's ever going to happen to
you, versus glorifying serialkillers.
I do think that that's afundamental downfall of our
society, one of the manydownfalls of our society, and
that we just keep doing it.
We give them lots of attentionand then we wonder why we have
more than any other country inthe world.
(18:56):
Because we give them a lot ofprops and we have celebrities,
play them on TV and we makemovies out of them and we make
books and we make memorabiliaand that's very problematic,
yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
Yeah, I've actually.
So my kids have not beenexposed to horror, but they've.
My older daughter really lovesHalloween Always has.
She's been a witch severaltimes, like just loves it.
My younger daughter is a littlebit more cuddly and likes the
dressing up part, but that's andthe candy, of course.
Of course I've been trying nowthat they're getting older, I've
(19:32):
been actually trying to be likeoh we can, you know, watch
scary movies now together.
They have no interest and partof that is developmental, like
they just don't necessarily wantto watch movies with me anymore
.
But my younger daughter and Ifound this series on Netflix
called Mr Midnight, and I thinkyou had mentioned, didn't you
mention that the other day, mrMidnight, and I think you had
(19:53):
mentioned, didn't you mentionthat the other day.
Yeah, so what?
What I really love about it iskind of what you were talking
about in terms of, um, horror asjust like an outside
supernatural thing that'shappening that doesn't have to
have violence and it doesn'thave to have a glorification of
anybody, um, and so there areall these like spirits and it's
(20:13):
about the supernatural andghosts and things like that.
Nobody gets hurt ever and Ilove it nobody gets hurt it's so
hokey, it's so hokey that.
But that's what's great about ittoo.
It's a little bit like watchinglike scooby-doo, where you're
like they cannot ever catch thebad guys, you know like they're
(20:34):
always chasing and things likethat.
But there's something reallywonderful there about you know,
not having gore, so we've beenreally enjoying that in my
household.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
There's an excitement to being scared.
Think about all the moneythat's put in in haunted houses,
right, Like I used to go touniversal halloween horror
nights every year for for likeat least six or seven years and
the adrenaline of going throughthose houses knowing that you're
not really going to get hurt.
But it doesn't make it any lessterrifying when you have like
(21:06):
really scary things jumping outat you or like loud sounds, and
there's this, there's this rushlike you just you know I get,
and I think a a lot of peopleget, when you're in it and then
you get out of it.
It's like, wow, that's thatfelt great because you know the
whole time I'm in line.
I'm like, oh God, why am Idoing this?
Why am I doing this?
There's this buildup.
(21:27):
It's like getting on a rollercoaster Although you know now I
love roller coasters, but beforeyou know, maybe, when I was
afraid of them, the buildup ofbeing in line of oh my God, why
am I doing this, why am I doingthis it's like terrible.
And then you get on it and yougo through the whole thing and
it's over and you're like, oh myGod, that was like the best
thing ever.
Let me go do it again.
It does Like there's a lot offun in that stuff and there's a
(21:48):
lot of fun in being scared whenyou know it's safe.
Scared right, yeah.
But I do remember there was one,um, there was one year I don't
remember when it was that I wentinto a haunted house and it was
after one of the multiplebazillion school shootings that
we had and there was a guydressed up as a soldier and he
pointed a gun at me in thehaunted house and I remember
(22:08):
like vividly saying out, likeget that thing out of my face.
And he did like immediately,immediately, he like put it, he
put it down.
I think that there are certaintimes, obviously, when even
haunted houses, as funny as theycan, can be triggering to
people where but you know.
You also know what you're.
You know what you're signing upfor, like if I know I'm going
to a haunted house, I know thatthere's a likelihood that I'm
going to see something thatmight not, that I might not like
(22:30):
.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
But I think the end result of it still for me is
enjoyable.
Yeah, I've never been a big fanof haunted houses.
I love them at like theme parkswhere they're again.
That reality shift is thereRight.
I've been through a couplewhere people touched me and that
made me feel so uncomfortable.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
Yeah, that I don't think is ever okay.
And then you have those weirdplaces in California and like I
think there's other States thathave this where you can pay like
a ridiculous amount of money toget kidnapped and put through
these like intense, like hauntedhouses that you get money for
If you can successfully gothrough the whole thing.
But that to me is a wholenother realm, that's like.
(23:11):
That's like outside of anythingI would ever want to do?
no, me neither but you know, theother thing that we wanted to
tie into this is phobias,because phobias and fears are
common things that people haveand it goes in the spirit of
halloween right being afraid ofthings and what you were talking
(23:33):
about with that like adrenalinerush.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
That's really a symptom of fear and that's it's
a physical response.
It's normal, completely normal,and it's triggered by something
that is in fact a real threat,whereas a phobia is a set of
fear or something like an objector an experience, or it can
(23:57):
even be just being out in public, and a phobia is actually can
be an imagined thing or it canbe real, but it triggers a lot
of that same physiologicalresponse the heartbeat, panic
attack, you can people likestart sweating, you feel really
scared, shortness of breath, andso it's this whole.
They're actually feeling thosesensations, but most likely the
(24:21):
threat isn't real.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
That happens to me Every time I get blood taken.
I have a massive blood phobia,which is also genetic.
It does run into families.
I've gotten way better about itthan I used to be.
But I know if you would talk tomy mom when I was younger, they
would have to have multiplepeople hold me down so that they
could take blood from me.
And I know there was one timewhere I really tried to get it
(24:48):
done without taking a Xanax oranything.
I was like you know what I'mgoing to go in practice?
My breathing, I'm going to getthrough this.
It's going to be awesome.
And I went in there and I toldthe phlebotomist.
I said you know, usually Idon't do this really well and I
have a vasovagal response whereI'll either pass out or go into
this intense like panic mode.
And I said but you know, todayI'm going to do it.
(25:09):
I just need you to keep talkingto me and I'm going to breathe.
Everything's going to be great.
And he did and it went reallywell.
And I was like, wow, I am doingthis, I was getting through the
whole thing.
And then there was a lull inthe conversation where he
stopped talking and I stoppedtalking and I could hear suction
and I instantly went from zeroto a thousand.
(25:30):
It was like get that out of myarm, I of my arm.
So now I do the whole Xanaxlaying down butterfly needle.
They have to be talking to me.
It's a big, big, big deal forme.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
Oh, I'm sorry, that sounds so uncomfortable.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
It's really common, though A lot of people have it.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
Yeah, so there's actually.
It's called the blood injuryphobia.
It's a separate phobia thannormal phobia.
People who have it tend to beare more likely to be women
actually, more women have itthan men but it is a very common
phobia and it ranges fromextreme disgust to physical
(26:09):
fainting to physical fainting,and a lot of times people just
won't get their blood taken oravoid hospitals because of this
phobia.
So, interestingly enough,though, some people have either
the fear of their own blood orthe fear of other people
(26:30):
bleeding, but most people don'thave both things.
Where do you fall in thatcategory?
Speaker 2 (26:37):
That's interesting.
So I really have to think aboutthat.
I mean, I know it's definitelylargely my blood, and the phobia
, as irrational as it is, isthat because I have a lot of
tattoos, and phlebotomist Sybilwill often say to me oh, you get
tattoos without a problem.
How come?
Like you know, you can't haveblood work without passing out.
Well, because the difference isand this is what I tell them
(26:58):
all the time is when I'm gettinga tattoo done or when I get
shots, they're putting somethingin my body.
When they're taking blood out,they're sucking the life out of
me.
That's what.
That's what's in my head.
Right, like they're like we'retaking a vial, like I get it
logically, but in my head itjust feels like that's it, like
they're, they're what's the word?
(27:19):
Exsanguinating?
yeah, they're likeexsanguinating me and I'm gonna
like bleed out.
And actually, now that I'mthinking about it, there was a I
think it was halloween part twoof the series, the original one
, not the rob zombie one.
There's a scene where a nursegets killed by putting in I
think Michael Myers puts aneedle in her and bleeds her out
.
I still, to this day, cannotwatch that scene because it just
(27:41):
causes me too much anxiety.
But I think, in terms of otherpeople, I know there've been
scenarios where I've seen otherpeople have some sort of injury
and been a hundred percent fine.
But then there's also beenscenarios where I haven't been
fine.
So I know, even if it's like asmall cut, like people would
laugh at me, but I would getlike a small cut and I used to
(28:03):
not even be able to put aband-aid on myself.
I'd be like I'd have like, uh,you know, paper, paper, towel,
like holding it down, and they'dbe like somebody put a band-aid
on because like I couldn't evenlook at it I'm definitely
better than I am now with thatstuff like now that that's fine
for me um much.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
Well, I shouldn't say fine, it's way better than it
was but yeah, it's like put alot of work into making it okay
though in term.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
Yeah, I mean, definitely there was actually.
Now that I think about it,there's one time where this may
have more been shock thananything.
I was at a former friend'shouse who I am not very friendly
with anymore because she wasdating this.
I'll make a very long storyshort.
She was dating this woman whowas a terrible, terrible,
terrible dog owner and just aterrible human being at their
(28:53):
house and the dog was sitting onmy lap and you know I'm an
animal person, I've had animalsmy entire life and it was a very
small I think it's alapsu-wapsu and I moved too
quickly and the dog jumped at myface and like literally just
bit me and I like it happened soquick.
I don't even remember feelingthe bite, it was just very like
numb, almost because theadrenaline.
And I looked over at one of myother friends and he turned
really pale and he was like youneed to go to the hospital and I
(29:16):
was like what?
And of course I go in thebathroom his blood gushing out
of my face and I actually wasstrangely calm.
Again, I don't know if it wasthe adrenaline, I don't know if
it was all that stuff that washappening, but going to the
emergency room.
I just had pulled in like acloth on my face and I was for
the most part fine, which isweird because normally that
(29:37):
would send me like right overthe edge, but it didn't, so that
I guess that's some progressright.
But I think it was probably theshock and the trauma that just
made it okay in that moment.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
Yeah, actually my father has been through
something similar.
He's always been really afraidof other people's blood and he
got a really bad cut on like asaw, and before he passed out
which he did eventually as hewas very calm and was able to
like walk a certain distance andget help, and then eventually
(30:12):
he passed out because it was alot of pain.
But I don't.
I think that's that might besort of common.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
Yeah, that makes sense.
What do you have?
Any?
Speaker 1 (30:20):
phobias Not that I know of.
Honestly, my sister, when I waslittle, had a terrible spider
phobia which is pretty common.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
So that goes back, by the way, to the urban legend
about the spider bite.
You know that right.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
Oh, gross yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
You know that one.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
Which I totally believed until I was probably 20
.
Yeah, how do you have any otherphobias than love?
Speaker 2 (30:49):
Not that are that intense.
I mean, I definitely have alittle bit of fear of heights,
but not to the point that itwould be debilitating.
I think it's a little bit moreof.
Again, it's physiological,where I get some vertigo if I'm
near something like, or tooclose to, something that has an
edge, um, but definitely notthat I can think of.
I mean, I think we also haveemotional phobias that are not
(31:12):
maybe rooted in the same type of.
The emotional phobias are notas physical, they don't carry
the same level of adrenaline.
I think that goes with it, asyou know, like a like a fear of
dying.
But, and you know you couldargue that pretty much all does
that one of is it john cabot zen, one of the buddhists actually
the john cabot zen, or I couldtotally I think he talks about
(31:33):
in one of the books about howall fears are really the fear of
annihilation, that you're goingto die somehow, and I guess
that makes sense if you reallythink about it, like all phobias
do boil down to some type oflike I'm going to die.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
Yeah, absolutely, when I was looking at the phobia
research, they kind ofcategorize different things.
So there's social phobias,which get kind of classified as
like fears of being in bigcrowds, and then of course
there's agoraphobia, which isthe fear of being outside, in
public, and that usually happenswhen people start having panic
(32:09):
attacks.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
Yeah, and what are some of the other common ones?
There's claustrophobia ispretty common.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
Yeah, claustrophobia, fear of flying, they kind of
clump some of the animal ones.
So dogs is really common,spiders, snakes, are very common
.
There are some beliefs thatsnakes and spiders and heights
are some of the bigger phobiasthat a lot of people have from a
(32:37):
long time ago.
So it's kind of like a geneticinheritance possibility with
those three.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
Well, that would make sense.
I mean, if you think about it,especially with like spiders and
snakes I mean back before wewere able to identify what's
poisonous and what's notpoisonous, there are certainly
spiders and snakes out therethat have enough venom to kill
somebody very quickly if theyget bitten.
So I'm sure there is like aprimal survival fight or flight
(33:04):
kind of coping skill that goeswith that.
And same thing with the fear ofheights, I would imagine too.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
And I'd go a step further and guess food
contamination.
You know, when you accidentallyeat something that's not,
you're not supposed to, and wehave like a biological response
to that.
So when we eat something oringest something that makes us
throw up, it triggers a responsein our mind to remember that
(33:30):
thing that made us throw up andwe don't want to ever eat that
thing again.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
God, I have two terrible stories about eating.
So one of them this is for along time I didn't eat pudding
because there was a scenariowhere my grandmother you know my
grandmother grew up during theDepression, like you know most
my grandfather did too.
They would save cooking fat.
Yep yep, right, and they wouldput in the refrigerator.
My grandmother also used tomake tapioca pudding all the
(33:59):
time, and there was one day thatI went in my grandmother's
refrigerator.
I know you know the way this isgoing and I see this bowl of
what looks like pudding andbecause usually she would leave
the grease on the stove.
So I thought, oh look, grandmamade pudding and I took a big
and I mean big spoonful ofgrease and I put it in my mouth
(34:19):
and I would like it was the mostdisgusting thing I think I've
ever eaten in my entire life,and that had I had an aversion
to anything that even lookedlike pudding for years.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
That's why, yeah, and if you've ever had a really bad
encounter with a specific typeof alcohol, you'll remember and
tell people not to put that kindof alcohol in your drink.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
Is that a personal story, or is that?
Speaker 1 (34:42):
No, no.
I remember from a psych class Iwas taking she was talking
about tequila in particular thatthat's a common one, that
people over it, uh, overdo.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
Or, as I call it, to kill you, cause that's what I
never liked the taste of that.
I think that's like one of themost vile alcohols out there in
terms of like taste.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
And you know, a worm just never sounded very good to
me.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
I don't know.
I mean, I think that's likevery high end tequila, like I
don't think I've ever seen abottle of tequila that I've
purchased or seen that had aworm in it.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
I wonder if that's an urban legend.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
I think it really does exist.
I just think it's probably likea very high end, very high end,
I would imagine.
I don't know, we'll have tolook that up.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
Yeah.
So you and I went on a ghosttour, which was super fun.
I highly recommend mysticconnecticut.
We had an awesome time, um, andwhen we were, uh, going through
the ghost tour, a few thingslike kind of stuck out to me
that I thought we might talkabout is.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
Does that include the evp machine I was using or no?
Speaker 1 (35:50):
yes, does it okay?
Okay, go, go ahead.
You want to start off with?
Speaker 2 (35:54):
that.
Well, no, I don't know whereyou're going, so you talk first
and I'll add it in if it'srelevant.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
Well, so, mr, connecticut, if you've never
been, is the port town inConnecticut.
It's beautiful and when youwalk around you just have this
like good feeling, you know.
But the history of it is reallykind of disturbing and as we
started our ghost tour, I wasreally kind of grateful that
that's where the tour guide kindof started, with a telling of
(36:24):
how there was a Pequot tribethat was massacred right in the
town, that the spirit of thosepeople, those ancestors, are
said to still be in the town,that the spirit of those people,
those ancestors, are said tostill be in the town and causing
fires I.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
I do want to say this really quickly before you,
before you finish that.
What I found really interestingand I know I mentioned it to
you and mike is as she's tellingthe story about the pequa nans
and the puritans and how theytrapped all the women and
children in the in the buildingand then lit it on fire and
burnt it down.
You know, I remember looking atthe two of you and saying, wow,
nothing changes.
Really nothing changes.
(37:00):
That's exactly what's happeningright now in Palestine and the
genocide that's happening.
It doesn't matter, like historyjust continues to recycle and
people don't seem to care.
That's my two cents on that.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
Well, I mean, there is something really creepy to me
after learning that, because Ididn't know that going into the
ghost tour Nor did I.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
That was all new information for me.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
And I think that's something I definitely should
have known because I've I livein Rhode Island.
We're really close.
I've been to Mystic a number oftimes, you know.
To be able to sort of payrespects to the people who lost
their lives feels reallyimportant to me and that just in
a kind of I think she did itrespectfully, but certainly we
could all do a little bit betterto respect Native Americans in
(37:45):
this country.
Yeah, so I did actually likethat part of the tour, though I
enjoyed learning a little bitmore history, that was true.
Well, do you want to talk aboutyour leader?
Speaker 2 (37:58):
so I I have these two apps that I use.
One's called ghost radar andthe other one is called spirit
hunter, I think.
Let me know spirit talker and Iwas, let me see if I could even
pull it up.
There was a story about twokids that were oh man, I don't
do you remember the story?
I don't remember very much.
It was two kids that haunted.
Speaker 1 (38:21):
It was like it was called the Emporium, so it was
kind of like one of those pennyshops where there would have
been lots of candy.
There was a factory nearby.
The story took place in theearly or the late 1900s and
these two kids, they think, wereprobably the fire keepers, so
they probably lit lamps andthings like that throughout the
house.
(38:41):
They actually didn't go intodetail about how the children
died, they just sort ofdisappeared in the story.
But there have been multiplesightings of children in this
building.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
And there were two boys and one girl, correct?
Speaker 1 (38:56):
I think it was just two boys.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
Two boys, because there was a girl somewhere.
I don't know if it was in thehouse.
That was the brothel, but therewas like the tickling ghost
that she mentioned.
Speaker 1 (39:05):
Well, the giggling ghost was a different building.
There was a brothel in thatsame emporium upstairs and there
was a story about a woman whoactually left footprints in
paint that was drying on thefloor okay um, there was a man
there who saw it happen.
(39:25):
He had actually been paintingthe floor and he heard like the
click clacking of heels, andwhen he went downstairs he
couldn't.
He could still hear the sound,but he couldn't find the person.
And later, when he wentupstairs, there were women's
footprints in the paint, and soit was pretty interesting,
(39:45):
because they actually chargedpeople in the town to come and
see the footprints in the paintfor a really long time.
Speaker 2 (39:53):
Which makes you wonder if that was actually
staged or if it really happens,you know, because obviously
that's very profitable.
But the thing I just saw Ilooked up the app because it
keeps a history of what it said,and we were sitting in the
restaurant that these two kidsare allegedly supposed to haunt
and it said I'm over here.
Then it said I'm only seven.
And then it said I'm hidinghere.
And then it said I'm hidinghere and then it said we're not
(40:15):
at peace, and that freaked allof us out.
And then at one point Mike saidsomething about age.
And then it said age.
He was telling the story and hewas like, oh, when I was 19.
And then it said age, likeright, as he said that was the
other thing.
That was kind of freaky and Iknow people are like, well,
maybe it hears you, maybe it,maybe it doesn't hear you, but I
was also telling a story abouthow, um, when my cat recently
(40:38):
had, uh, passed away, they hadsent me an email saying that the
remains had been.
The remains were in because shewas cremated and the app turned
on the phone later on that day.
It was on my, it was on mycounter, it was nowhere near me
and it turned on and it saidthey cremated my body.
That was when I was like, okay,I was freaking out a little bit
(40:58):
that's terrifying to me but youknow, that's the stuff that, as
much as I find it terrifying, itstill like excites me.
I'm like, oh, that's so coolyou know.
Speaker 1 (41:07):
No, you're pretty funny, you were really looking
for it I really was.
Speaker 2 (41:10):
I think I freaked out the waitress a little bit when
I was working on the things itwas saying.
You know, I'm definitely one ofthose people that's like I want
to see it.
I want to see it right now.
Speaker 1 (41:22):
What's your favorite ghost story?
Speaker 2 (41:25):
Oh, that's a really good question.
I don't know.
I mean we talked about MercyBrown.
I mean that's not really one ofmy favorites, but that's a
local one.
I don't know if I can think ofa favorite one off the top of my
head.
Do you want to tell the storyabout Mercy Brown?
Speaker 1 (41:39):
for, like all the Rhode, Island listeners, I'm
sure most of them know anyway,but so I'm from Exeter, rhode
Island I'm sorry 1880s, I'm fromthe 1980s.
So there was a couple, thomasand Mary Brown, and they had
(42:03):
five daughters and one son, andMary Brown was a farm wife.
She was really hardworking,well-respected, and then she was
.
Her body was pretty muchravaged by consumption.
She became really fragile.
Everybody was kind of scaredwith what happened to her body,
particularly.
Speaker 2 (42:22):
And consumption is the previous name for
tuberculosis.
Speaker 1 (42:26):
Right right, which at that time was really hitting
Rhode Island pretty hard, asother places as well.
So she passed away in this likesmall rural town and then a
year later her oldest daughter,mary, also got sick and she
actually reported having baddreams in which a crushing
(42:48):
weight was stealing her life asshe was sleeping which would
certainly happen if you hadtuberculosis because it affects
the lungs.
But nobody at the time was likeputting that together.
Several years pass after shedies and their only son starts
to have tuberculosis symptoms.
So he gets sent out West.
(43:08):
But then his little sister,mercy, dies and it's like really
quick and Mercy's only about 18when she dies.
At this point it's been almost10 years since her mother had
first died.
Her brother, edwin, comes backand as soon as he comes back to
Rhode Island his tuberculosiscomes back full force and he
(43:30):
starts to lose a lot of weight,lose a lot of energy and
everybody gets really scared.
And during that time you havethe New England sort of panic
about vampires.
So there were already like talkthroughout the different states
about if there were vampiresand spirits were causing
(43:51):
tuberculosis and consumption.
When Mercy dies, edwin comesback and he's not feeling well.
The town goes into a panic andthey really put pressure on
Mercy's father to exhume thebodies and see if one of them
had been stealing the life ofEdwin.
So the father doesn't want todo it at first, but then finally
(44:12):
he does.
He kind of succumbs to thepressure.
They exhume the bodies and theyfind that mercy her.
They take out her heart.
Um, her mom and her sister'sbodies were just bones at that
point, which would make sensebecause it's been over 10 years.
Mercy had only been buried fora couple of months and she was
(44:32):
in like a crypt above ground infreezing cold weather.
Speaker 2 (44:37):
Yeah, because it was during the winter, wasn't it?
Speaker 1 (44:39):
Yeah, so it makes sense that her body was still
preserved.
And even at the time and it wasreported in the newspaper that
a doctor who was looking at thebody said this is totally normal
, and still the townspeople didn.
Looking at the body said thisis totally normal, and still the
townspeople didn't believe himand said if there's blood in her
heart, she's certainly suckingthe blood out of Edwin.
(45:00):
What you mean?
Even back then people didn'tbelieve experts.
History repeats itself.
There we go all over again.
Yeah, so basically they cremateMercy's heart and liver and make
a tonic with the ashes andserve it to her brother.
(45:21):
Tonic doesn't work.
Her brother dies and that'skind of where the story of Mercy
Brown ends.
But what's kind of crazy to meis that she had three other or
four other sisters, three othersisters and they all died
subsequently.
Afterwards they think that thefamily had like what's called
(45:42):
galloping tuberculosis.
So you are asymptomatic foryears and years and then finally
you have symptoms and you youpretty much die very quickly.
So it's just, it's a really sadstory, but people still go to
the grave.
I used to live in that town, soon Halloween especially, you
see people leaving flowers andvisiting and yeah, it's still a
(46:06):
pretty big deal.
Speaker 2 (46:08):
And her gravestone was stolen at one point in time.
Speaker 1 (46:11):
Yeah, which is crazy.
I don't know how that happens,even.
Speaker 2 (46:18):
Well, I mean people do.
People are not always thegreatest.
Speaker 1 (46:24):
I think this story, though it's really sad, and if
you look at it from a feministperspective, the town only did
something when the son was introuble.
They kind of like persecutethis like young child and nobody
ever like gets really upsetthat the other daughters keep
dying.
Speaker 2 (46:41):
And I think the only, there was only one, one child
that lived past the age of 25,right the rest of them all died
before that?
Yeah, and did she die?
Did she die shortly after sheturned 25?
Do you know, or was it?
No?
Yeah, did she die.
Did she die shortly?
Speaker 1 (46:53):
after she turned 25?
Do you know, or was it no?
So the one daughter who didsurvive actually lived to be in
her 70s.
Speaker 2 (47:00):
Wow, which is actually for that time frame.
That's pretty impressive.
Yeah, you know.
The other thing they talkedabout during the ghost tour is
the pictures they used to takeof because people would die
really young, so the family, thepictures they would take of
kids that had been deceased is Ithink it's called memento Morio
or something like Moria,something like that.
Speaker 1 (47:23):
I think right.
Well, memento Moria is Latin,it's remember you will die.
Throughout history, you havethese little like pockets of
periods where artists,especially like Gleamon, to
Memento Mori, and so they makepictures of people being
(47:43):
confronted with their death.
I think the pictures you'rereferring to although I don't
know the name of it occurred inthe 1800s, when young children
were dying and families didn'thave enough money to actually
take pictures of the wholefamily together.
Unfortunately, you know, if youlose a child, that's your last
(48:06):
chance, so they would actually,you know, stage the dead people
next to other participants inthe family.
They're really kind ofdisturbing and heartbreaking no,
they really are.
Speaker 2 (48:18):
The only thing I can find is a post yeah, okay, so it
says it's known as post-mortemphotography or a momentum mori
photographic.
Speaker 1 (48:27):
So okay, I was.
Speaker 2 (48:28):
I'm sorry I thought that that was the name of it.
I just wasn't 100% certain.
They're really morbid lookingand sometimes when you look at
the picture, you're not alwayscertain which person is actually
deceased Sometimes it's notalways super clear.
Speaker 1 (48:42):
But they are absolutely creepy.
A lot of them actually took thephotograph of the child and it
looks like they're sleeping intheir bed, which that is even
more discerning to me.
Speaker 2 (48:53):
But there are a couple where they have kids
lined up in a line and one ofthem is deceased.
Sometimes it's really obvious,sometimes it's not, it's just.
I mean, I get it.
It's a different time frame.
We did different things backthen.
Speaker 1 (49:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (49:08):
Well, that was a fun episode.
It was very, very much forHalloween.
Well, that was a fun episode.
(49:36):
It was very, very much forHalloween.
I did want to.
I want to throw in a couple ofthings, because the election is
next week and he sent me amessage saying that the
apartheid state of Israel bombedIran and his mom and sister are
there.
So of course he was very upsetabout that and it's just really
frustrating what's going onright now.
And I saw a video of Bernie theother day and I know lots of
people are Bernie fans, but ifyou ask me, there is no such
thing, no such thing right nowas any political leader that is
(49:59):
on the right side of history inour country.
They're all horrible, they'reall compromised, they're all
owned.
You know where he's talkingabout.
You know he's doing all thesethings to try to stop the war,
but he can't say the wordgenocide because his master
won't let him say that.
It's really frustrating.
He particularly pisses me offbecause, if anybody knows about
the state of Vermont, so at onepoint in time Rutland was known
(50:21):
as the heroin capital of theUnited States and they have the
second highest rate ofhomelessness in the country.
The guy can't even take care ofhis own state.
That's among other things.
I mean, at one point, pointrelin had more bars per capita
than any other country uh, Imean, I'm sorry than any other
state in the country.
And the retirement you can't.
You know, a lot of people can'teven afford to live there.
(50:42):
So he's one of the people thatalways pisses me off because he
is just like a I don't even knowhow to describe him.
He likes to pretend he's doingall these great things when he
really he's just a mouthpiecelike the rest of them.
But what I wanted to say is Ithink I have gotten to the point
where you know I think wetalked about this a little bit
on the car ride back that I knowwhoever wins is going to be
(51:02):
terrible.
So I mean I'm not going to atthis point, lose sleep over it
because I know it's just goingto end disastrously.
But what I want everybody to dois just remember that if we
continue to vote for the lesserof two evils, if that's what we
continue to do, we're going tocontinue to get evil and that
the only way to break that cycleis to stop doing that.
Either option is terrible.
We are pure voting for Harris.
(51:25):
You are signing the deathwarrant of pretty much anybody
in Palestine.
I mean, they have killed morekids under the Biden-Harris
administration than I think inhistory and we continue to fund
that.
They continue to fund that withour tax dollars.
You can turn a blind eye tothat, pretend it's not happening
, if you vote for her becauseyou see her as the lesser of two
evils.
But you are signing the deathwarrant of kids and women in
(51:51):
Palestine and other countrieswhere we are just attacking them
willy-nilly to prevent this.
You know, to keep this idea ofself-defense.
You know Israel has a right todefend itself by shooting babies
in the head and harvestingorgans.
And you know what are theydoing now Marching people with
numbers on them and putting themin mass graves.
Where have we seen that before?
And again, that is under theHarris-Biden administration.
(52:13):
So for those of you who thinkthat she's this great person,
she's not.
And the other alternative is apsychopathic, narcissistic
person who is going to continueto keep the country divided and
everybody hating each otherwhile spreading mass lies.
I mean, neither one of them aregood options.
I think we have to stoppretending that they are.
Again, I'm not going to tellyou who to vote for, but if you
(52:33):
do vote for either one of them,you do then not get to come back
and say how bad you feel forthe people dying because you
signed it.
That's my stance on that.
I don't know, I just feel likeI had to say it.
I don't know if you want to addanything to that.
Speaker 1 (52:48):
I just want to encourage everybody to vote.
Your vote really does matter,so I'm going to be neutral here.
Speaker 2 (52:56):
You're going to be neutral.
I'm so not neutral right now,and you know, I think you know.
Again I mentioned this inConnecticut and Rhode Island we
have career politicians thatneed to be voted out across the
board.
They certainly do not help thestates.
They are sending all of our taxdollars to bomb tents while
letting the people in ourcountry stay homeless.
(53:16):
So again, that's my stance.
So again, thank you everybodyfor joining us.
We are going to be coming upwith a new logo in the next week
or so.
Cora and I have an idea aboutdoing like a free giveaway for
some merch to get people to sendideas of things they want us to
(53:36):
talk about.
Speaker 1 (53:37):
Yeah, so please send us your what you want to hear us
discuss.
Uh, we love hearing fromlisteners and we really
appreciate everything you do.
Speaker 2 (53:47):
Thank you everybody and until next time.
Have a great day, Enjoy yourHalloween.
Speaker 1 (53:53):
Happy Halloween.
Speaker 2 (53:53):
Hello everybody and thank you again for listening.
(54:16):
This is just a reminder that nopart of this podcast can be
duplicated or copied withoutwritten consent from either
myself or Wendy.
Thank you again.
This podcast is not intended to serve as therapeutic
advice or to replace anyprofessional treatment.
These opinions belong to us anddo not reflect any company or
agency.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Hello everybody and welcome back to another episode
of the United States of PTSD.
This is going to be seasonthree, our first episode of
season three, and I want to justdo a quick announcement before
we get started.
So Julia is going to be takinga little bit of a break right
now.
She is going to be focusing alittle bit of a break right now.
She is going to be focusing onher private practice, which is
fantastic, and I want to thankher for all the work that she
(00:50):
did in season two.
So cora is now going to be theofficial co-host for season
three and the anticipated planis that this will go on until
about april of next year.
Cor, cora, correct, right?
And obviously Cora will havethe opportunity to stay if she
wants to afterwards.
If not, there is already a planfor season four.
(01:12):
So we are moving ahead and Iwant to thank all the supporters
we have.
We are at an all-time high fordownloads and listens and I'm
super excited about it.
And just a quick shout-out toWendy and Julia for helping to
get us this far.
And, cora, thank you for allthe amazing research you have
been doing to make this evenbetter.
(01:33):
It just keeps getting better andbetter and better.
So, and all the great guestsbecause we've had in the past, I
want to thank all of them aswell.
And happy Halloween everybody.
My goal is to get this.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
I think we're going to try to have this released on
Halloween, because I think thatwould be awesome Instead of
Monday, which we usually releaseon.
So Cora do October 31st, and itwas actually a sort of New
Year's Eve.
People believed that that was aday when the veil between
humans and the spirit world wasthe thinnest during the
agricultural cycle, and it wasalso a day when animals were
slaughtered.
So I think we get a lot of oursort of blood and gore from that
(02:32):
tradition of slaughteringanimals.
We have written records fromthe ninth century in Ireland
that date back to celebrationsof Halloween, but we actually
believe that it happened a lotsooner.
We just don't have records toprove that it was in place.
As Catholicism came into Celticregions it became adapted into
(03:00):
Christianity.
November 1st is All Saints Day,so the Christian church kind of
took it, took a little spin onit and made October 31st the All
Hallows Eve, and so that's howwe get the name Halloween.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Thank you, cora, for that.
It's interesting when I went toRome and Greece you learn about
, especially at the Roman Forum,you get the history of how each
new religion that came on stolestuff from previous religions
and adapted it because theycouldn't get people to believe
something new.
So they would take the oldthings and then they would turn
(03:40):
them into new versions ofcurrent things.
Turn them into new versions ofcurrent things.
Samhain or Halloween is nodifferent than anything else.
To you know to try to take awaythe original meaning of that.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
Sure, and then actually from there we have
Great Britain.
Catholics started kind oftaking that tradition of mumming
, being in costumes, dressing upon Halloween, and the tradition
was that single people orchildren would go around and
they would knock on doors andthey would ask if the house
(04:13):
wanted a blessing and if thehouse said no, the house could
receive a trick, and if thehouse gave out a little bit of
drink or a little bit ofsomething to eat, the people
would send them a prayer or ablessing.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
Cora, do you dress up for Halloween?
Speaker 1 (04:30):
I'm a Halloween mom.
I make costumes.
I love making costumes for mykiddos.
This year, my daughter will bea Rhode Island hot wiener, oh my
God, that's awesome.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
Maybe we should give a little bit of a background on
that.
So Rhode Island and New Yorkare the only two states where
hot wieners are actually stillserved.
Yes, rhode Island has a big.
I mean they are fond of theirhot wieners.
I remember when I was in mycollege days, way back, when
there was a place in Providencewhere they actually would put
them on their arms.
Do you remember?
Speaker 1 (05:05):
that when they would like load them up and they're
like of course.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
I can't do that anymore now because of sanitary
reasons.
So funny, I love that.
So she's dressing up as a hotwiener.
What's the other one dressingup as?
Speaker 1 (05:16):
She's way more traditional.
She's got this really cozyshark costume.
Shark week yeah.
That's great Matt.
Do you like being dressed up?
Speaker 2 (05:27):
You know I love it and I used to throw big
Halloween parties every yearwhen I lived in Providence.
I would throw one that wasthemed every year too, so I
would have different themes.
I mean, we did things likeheaven and hell.
I did.
I think I was telling you andMike about this one called toxic
circus.
I did the seven deadly sins andI would always do food
(05:50):
associated with the theme, and Idid this largely by myself.
So I would spend lots of moneyand create dishes, for you know,
like when I did seven deadlysins, I did a dish for every
single sin that was at the party.
Unfortunately, covid put adamper on me throwing parties
and I think post COVID, peoplehave still been leery about
socializing.
I think they lost a lot oftheir skills during COVID and,
(06:12):
you know, I think just ingeneral, people are not as
reliable as they used to and, asyou know, throwing any sort of
party or event is a lot of moneyand when you do that and you
know people cancel at the lastminute or people don't show up,
it's incredibly frustrating.
So now I've decided what I'mgoing to do is just travel every
October for two weeks and gosomewhere in Europe, which is
what I've been doing I love that.
(06:33):
But to answer your originalquestion, I love Halloween.
It's my favorite holiday.
I wish it was Halloween allyear round.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
Well, you are not alone.
I have a funny statistic thisyear, or 2018, americans spent
or people in general spent $9billion on Halloween and an
estimate of $3.4 billion oncostumes alone.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
It's really close to the amount that people spent on
Christmas, right?
I think there was that onepoint where maybe I might be
misremembering this, but Ithought Halloween one year was
actually more profitable.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Because of how much people you know get into it.
You had brought up aninteresting well.
In your research you haddiscovered something about the
sexualization of Halloweencostumes among women, which you
know how many times I'vereferenced Mean Girls, but
that's also talked about inthere too, where the one time a
year it's okay for women todress provocatively.
(07:32):
I think you know.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
Yeah, so you know, traditionally costumes are kind
of like an opportunity forpeople to try on identities, to
try to be like understand whatit feels like to be somebody
else.
So I definitely think thatpeople enjoy being a little bit
prettier, going a little bitover the top.
(07:54):
But marketing in America hasreally targeted women and we
don't find a difference betweenthe teens and the adult women
when we're talking aboutmarketing and sexualized
costuming.
So as a parent, I find thatreally kind of disturbing.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
That's a whole.
I mean we could certainly spendan entire episode talking about
the over-sexualization but thenthe lack of sex education and
lack of awareness and how westill live in a very puritanical
country about don't talk aboutsex but like be as sexual as
possible.
But you know it's okay to gowatch them and get their head
blown off because that's youknow right.
I mean like seriously, likethat's how violence is great,
(08:35):
encouraged and God forbid wetalk about like nudity or sex,
but we'll show it as much as wecan.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
So that's, you know, pretty disturbing In the
research.
One of the other things Ithought was pretty interesting
was American urban legends andthe razor blade in the apple.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
That actually that happened, didn't it?
Or that's not a myth?
Right, that actually did happen, correct?
No, it did not happen.
Really, that's an urban legend,yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
It did not happen Really.
That's an urban legend, yeah.
So basically in America, theIrish Catholics in New York in
the 1900s started trick-orbecame like a very celebrated
holiday in America and peoplestarted dressing up all the time
(09:29):
.
In the 1950s it was especiallypopular and that's when kids are
going out trick or treatinglike completely alone without
any other adults.
But you also have.
But you also have so then inthe 70s what you have is people
social workers, health workerstalking about child abuse, which
you know was a really importantthing.
(09:51):
We started having laws madeagainst child labor laws and
things like that.
With trick-or-treating, peoplestarted getting like more
concerned that strangers couldpossibly hurt their children.
We don't know where the razorblade came from, but there are
no historic reports of a childbeing injured by a razor blade.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
That's fascinating.
I really thought that there wassome truth behind that.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
So the study I was looking at looked between 1958
and 1982.
During that period there were76 reports nationwide of some
sort of incident where a childpossibly could have got hurt by
a contaminated treat.
So in that time period you have1970 and 1971 with increases of
(10:41):
reports.
The highest report is 10.
So it really wasn't like a bigthing that was happening
nationally.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
You know what would be interesting if we compared
that to how many kids have beenon some sort of medication that
was recalled by big pharma forcausing problems or some sort of
health scares in kids, or evenlike the Tylenol crisis that
happened before, my guess isthose would be a lot higher than
the amount of kids that arehurt by trick-or-treating
(11:10):
Absolutely.
But you know it goes back to thewhole stranger danger thing too
right, like you know, we are sofocused on stranger danger when
the statistics show that it ismost likely family members or
relatives or friends who haveused kids and kidnap kids and
assault kids versus likeabsolute strangers.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
Yeah, and I'm so glad you brought all of that up,
matt, because that's exactlywhat happened.
So the other major spike we sawis in 1982.
It's one month after theTylenol murders, which I don't
know if everybody knows thatstory, but it happened in the
Chicago region.
A total of seven people diedafter taking Tylenol tablets.
(11:49):
Later on they found that theTylenol tablets had actually
been laced with potassiumcyanide and to this day the
culprit was never found.
They made a mass recall ofTylenol and everybody just had
to like dump it and get rid ofit and this event created a bill
, which was really good becausethat has increased safety for
(12:14):
all sorts of different productsthat we consume.
But the other thing that therewere two really famous cases
that happened about theHalloween treat tampering and
ironically enough, they wereboth family members that were
involved.
It wasn't stranger nature oranything like that.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Well, it's actually not like I mean.
When you look at the numbers,it isn't ironic, because that's
the I mean again.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
That's how it is.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
I mean we like to believe it's not.
I think part of that comes fromthe fear that we're vulnerable,
that we're vulnerable rightlike we are vulnerable to people
, mostly that we care about andthat are closest to us right and
instead of looking at that andaccepting it, we want to look
outside and say no, no, it's allthe people out there.
It's like not the people whoare close to me yeah, and that's
definitely what happened, um.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
One of the instances was an eight-year-old, um.
He ingested heroin with hisHalloween candy, but then it was
later found out that theHalloween candy had nothing to
do with it.
It was actually heroin that wasin his uncle's house.
So, unfortunately, thateight-year-old died and then the
second death involved another.
(13:20):
Oh, I'm sorry.
The first death was afive-year-old.
The second death was aneight-year-old.
He ingested Halloween candy andit was later found that his
father had contaminated it withpoison.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Wow his own father.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
That's horrifying.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
I know that's really gross On many levels.
Yeah, yeah, between you know,1958 and 1982, that's what this
major study was looking at wedon't have anything that tells
us about, like historicinformation about kids getting
hurt.
There's a couple that maybethey got hurt a little bit, but
(13:59):
nothing serious and definitelyno deaths.
And so if we look at thisexample as like urban legends,
they tend, like urban legends,tend to be oral, so it's just
stuff that we're talking about.
It tends to be human problemsrather than like the
supernatural and they're told asif they're true, which I have
definitely encountered,especially with this Like.
(14:22):
I remember my mom telling meall the time how, when she grew
up, there were, you know, kidsgetting hurt with apples and
blades and things like that.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Um, was that the biggest was that the biggest
urban legend you remember fromchildhood?
Speaker 1 (14:36):
there was bloody mary oh my gosh.
Yes, bloody, mary yeah, thatone was really scary to me for
those of you that I'm sureeverybody knows this.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
But for those of you that I'm sure everybody knows
this, but for those of you thatdon't know it, the legend is and
I think it's from Mary Queen ofScots right that if you go into
the mirror at night and youlight a candle and you say her
name three times, that sheappears and kills you or like
does something.
And did you ever do it?
Speaker 1 (15:01):
I was at a sleepover and some kids were doing it and
admittedly I just kind of walkedout slowly and they didn't
realize I was not there anymore.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
I have a funny, terrible story about that.
So my freshman year of collegeI was living on campus and one
of my roommates so I ended updating.
Later on he was terrified ofhorror movies and just
everything scary and we had goneout to see the movie Candyman.
So this was back the originalCandyman.
This was was back the originalCandyman.
This was a 92.
Candyman was very similar inthe sense that you would go into
the mirror and you would sayCandyman's name three times and
(15:32):
he would come and kill you.
And back in the college dorm wehad a suite with bathroom that
had like multiple stalls andshowers and all that stuff.
So he was in the bathroom, oneof the stalls, and I went and I
turned off the mirror and I saidCandyman three times and he was
up there screaming.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
Oh no.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
I was like, okay, that was a little terrible thing
that I did.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
Have you ever done any other kind of pranks during
Halloween?
Speaker 2 (16:01):
I don't think so.
I mean no, nothing I can thinkof.
I mean that one just stood outto me because I think we had
actually just seen the movie.
So that's what you know, that'swhat brought it up for me.
No, I think I'm more aboutdecorating and having the
festivities.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
I was doing the research because a lot of the
horror and the American Gothicthat's part of the American
culture right, it comes fromPuritans, the witch trials of
Salem and Americans actually puta bigger spin and focus on the
horror part.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
But the pagan rituals weren't spilling blood as
sacrifice or anything like that,like the only blood they had
was in relation to killinganimals for food right yeah, I
mean that they, many of theholidays that we celebrate, come
from pagan traditions that theyhave tried to just cover up and
steal as their own.
Many, many, many of them, ifnot all of them, and I think
(17:08):
that most people, I think, knowthis.
At that point you know it'sfunny you talk about horror
because I grew up on horrormovies.
I mean I would watch them.
This is all the time I would goout and watch horror movies.
You know, I think there'scertainly a lot of draw to it.
I remember there was a study onetime years ago and I looked for
(17:30):
it and I can't find it againthat said something about during
periods of civil unrest or whenour society isn't doing well,
that horror movies spike more,which I'm sure there's a sense
of trying to understand thedarker side, even when we did
that ghost tour the other day.
So, um, cora and my other, myother student, I took them to a
(17:50):
ghost tour for and dinner forcovering my vacation when I was
away and the guide had saidsomething about for the women
here, we know that you all likeserial killers.
Do you remember when she saidthat?
Or were you like, oh, I missedthat at the very beginning she
was.
She was talking about how allthe women like crime show
podcasts.
I don't know if it's just women, but I mean it certainly is.
(18:12):
A lot of people do like it, andI think I mentioned this before
the moms group that I ran for along time.
They all listened to crimeshows and murder shows because
there's almost this need tounderstand.
But we also, as a society, weglorify that shows because
there's this almost this need tounderstand but we also, as a
society, we glorify that.
I think there's a differencebetween horror and watching
something like freddy krueger or, you know, jason vorhees,
(18:35):
because you know it is sooutside of the realm of reality
that there's no chance thatthat's ever going to happen to
you, versus glorifying serialkillers.
I do think that that's afundamental downfall of our
society, one of the manydownfalls of our society, and
that we just keep doing it.
We give them lots of attentionand then we wonder why we have
more than any other country inthe world.
(18:56):
Because we give them a lot ofprops and we have celebrities,
play them on TV and we makemovies out of them and we make
books and we make memorabiliaand that's very problematic,
yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
Yeah, I've actually.
So my kids have not beenexposed to horror, but they've.
My older daughter really lovesHalloween Always has.
She's been a witch severaltimes, like just loves it.
My younger daughter is a littlebit more cuddly and likes the
dressing up part, but that's andthe candy, of course.
Of course I've been trying nowthat they're getting older, I've
(19:32):
been actually trying to be likeoh we can, you know, watch
scary movies now together.
They have no interest and partof that is developmental, like
they just don't necessarily wantto watch movies with me anymore
.
But my younger daughter and Ifound this series on Netflix
called Mr Midnight, and I thinkyou had mentioned, didn't you
mention that the other day, mrMidnight, and I think you had
(19:53):
mentioned, didn't you mentionthat the other day.
Yeah, so what?
What I really love about it iskind of what you were talking
about in terms of, um, horror asjust like an outside
supernatural thing that'shappening that doesn't have to
have violence and it doesn'thave to have a glorification of
anybody, um, and so there areall these like spirits and it's
(20:13):
about the supernatural andghosts and things like that.
Nobody gets hurt ever and Ilove it nobody gets hurt it's so
hokey, it's so hokey that.
But that's what's great about ittoo.
It's a little bit like watchinglike scooby-doo, where you're
like they cannot ever catch thebad guys, you know like they're
(20:34):
always chasing and things likethat.
But there's something reallywonderful there about you know,
not having gore, so we've beenreally enjoying that in my
household.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
There's an excitement to being scared.
Think about all the moneythat's put in in haunted houses,
right, Like I used to go touniversal halloween horror
nights every year for for likeat least six or seven years and
the adrenaline of going throughthose houses knowing that you're
not really going to get hurt.
But it doesn't make it any lessterrifying when you have like
(21:06):
really scary things jumping outat you or like loud sounds, and
there's this, there's this rushlike you just you know I get,
and I think a a lot of peopleget, when you're in it and then
you get out of it.
It's like, wow, that's thatfelt great because you know the
whole time I'm in line.
I'm like, oh God, why am Idoing this?
Why am I doing this?
There's this buildup.
(21:27):
It's like getting on a rollercoaster Although you know now I
love roller coasters, but beforeyou know, maybe, when I was
afraid of them, the buildup ofbeing in line of oh my God, why
am I doing this, why am I doingthis it's like terrible.
And then you get on it and yougo through the whole thing and
it's over and you're like, oh myGod, that was like the best
thing ever.
Let me go do it again.
It does Like there's a lot offun in that stuff and there's a
(21:48):
lot of fun in being scared whenyou know it's safe.
Scared right, yeah.
But I do remember there was one,um, there was one year I don't
remember when it was that I wentinto a haunted house and it was
after one of the multiplebazillion school shootings that
we had and there was a guydressed up as a soldier and he
pointed a gun at me in thehaunted house and I remember
(22:08):
like vividly saying out, likeget that thing out of my face.
And he did like immediately,immediately, he like put it, he
put it down.
I think that there are certaintimes, obviously, when even
haunted houses, as funny as theycan, can be triggering to
people where but you know.
You also know what you're.
You know what you're signing upfor, like if I know I'm going
to a haunted house, I know thatthere's a likelihood that I'm
going to see something thatmight not, that I might not like
(22:30):
.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
But I think the end result of it still for me is
enjoyable.
Yeah, I've never been a big fanof haunted houses.
I love them at like theme parkswhere they're again.
That reality shift is thereRight.
I've been through a couplewhere people touched me and that
made me feel so uncomfortable.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
Yeah, that I don't think is ever okay.
And then you have those weirdplaces in California and like I
think there's other States thathave this where you can pay like
a ridiculous amount of money toget kidnapped and put through
these like intense, like hauntedhouses that you get money for
If you can successfully gothrough the whole thing.
But that to me is a wholenother realm, that's like.
(23:11):
That's like outside of anythingI would ever want to do?
no, me neither but you know, theother thing that we wanted to
tie into this is phobias,because phobias and fears are
common things that people haveand it goes in the spirit of
halloween right being afraid ofthings and what you were talking
(23:33):
about with that like adrenalinerush.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
That's really a symptom of fear and that's it's
a physical response.
It's normal, completely normal,and it's triggered by something
that is in fact a real threat,whereas a phobia is a set of
fear or something like an objector an experience, or it can
(23:57):
even be just being out in public, and a phobia is actually can
be an imagined thing or it canbe real, but it triggers a lot
of that same physiologicalresponse the heartbeat, panic
attack, you can people likestart sweating, you feel really
scared, shortness of breath, andso it's this whole.
They're actually feeling thosesensations, but most likely the
(24:21):
threat isn't real.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
That happens to me Every time I get blood taken.
I have a massive blood phobia,which is also genetic.
It does run into families.
I've gotten way better about itthan I used to be.
But I know if you would talk tomy mom when I was younger, they
would have to have multiplepeople hold me down so that they
could take blood from me.
And I know there was one timewhere I really tried to get it
(24:48):
done without taking a Xanax oranything.
I was like you know what I'mgoing to go in practice?
My breathing, I'm going to getthrough this.
It's going to be awesome.
And I went in there and I toldthe phlebotomist.
I said you know, usually Idon't do this really well and I
have a vasovagal response whereI'll either pass out or go into
this intense like panic mode.
And I said but you know, todayI'm going to do it.
(25:09):
I just need you to keep talkingto me and I'm going to breathe.
Everything's going to be great.
And he did and it went reallywell.
And I was like, wow, I am doingthis, I was getting through the
whole thing.
And then there was a lull inthe conversation where he
stopped talking and I stoppedtalking and I could hear suction
and I instantly went from zeroto a thousand.
(25:30):
It was like get that out of myarm, I of my arm.
So now I do the whole Xanaxlaying down butterfly needle.
They have to be talking to me.
It's a big, big, big deal forme.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
Oh, I'm sorry, that sounds so uncomfortable.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
It's really common, though A lot of people have it.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
Yeah, so there's actually.
It's called the blood injuryphobia.
It's a separate phobia thannormal phobia.
People who have it tend to beare more likely to be women
actually, more women have itthan men but it is a very common
phobia and it ranges fromextreme disgust to physical
(26:09):
fainting to physical fainting,and a lot of times people just
won't get their blood taken oravoid hospitals because of this
phobia.
So, interestingly enough,though, some people have either
the fear of their own blood orthe fear of other people
(26:30):
bleeding, but most people don'thave both things.
Where do you fall in thatcategory?
Speaker 2 (26:37):
That's interesting.
So I really have to think aboutthat.
I mean, I know it's definitelylargely my blood, and the phobia
, as irrational as it is, isthat because I have a lot of
tattoos, and phlebotomist Sybilwill often say to me oh, you get
tattoos without a problem.
How come?
Like you know, you can't haveblood work without passing out.
Well, because the difference isand this is what I tell them
(26:58):
all the time is when I'm gettinga tattoo done or when I get
shots, they're putting somethingin my body.
When they're taking blood out,they're sucking the life out of
me.
That's what.
That's what's in my head.
Right, like they're like we'retaking a vial, like I get it
logically, but in my head itjust feels like that's it, like
they're, they're what's the word?
(27:19):
Exsanguinating?
yeah, they're likeexsanguinating me and I'm gonna
like bleed out.
And actually, now that I'mthinking about it, there was a I
think it was halloween part twoof the series, the original one
, not the rob zombie one.
There's a scene where a nursegets killed by putting in I
think Michael Myers puts aneedle in her and bleeds her out
.
I still, to this day, cannotwatch that scene because it just
(27:41):
causes me too much anxiety.
But I think, in terms of otherpeople, I know there've been
scenarios where I've seen otherpeople have some sort of injury
and been a hundred percent fine.
But then there's also beenscenarios where I haven't been
fine.
So I know, even if it's like asmall cut, like people would
laugh at me, but I would getlike a small cut and I used to
(28:03):
not even be able to put aband-aid on myself.
I'd be like I'd have like, uh,you know, paper, paper, towel,
like holding it down, and they'dbe like somebody put a band-aid
on because like I couldn't evenlook at it I'm definitely
better than I am now with thatstuff like now that that's fine
for me um much.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
Well, I shouldn't say fine, it's way better than it
was but yeah, it's like put alot of work into making it okay
though in term.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
Yeah, I mean, definitely there was actually.
Now that I think about it,there's one time where this may
have more been shock thananything.
I was at a former friend'shouse who I am not very friendly
with anymore because she wasdating this.
I'll make a very long storyshort.
She was dating this woman whowas a terrible, terrible,
terrible dog owner and just aterrible human being at their
(28:53):
house and the dog was sitting onmy lap and you know I'm an
animal person, I've had animalsmy entire life and it was a very
small I think it's alapsu-wapsu and I moved too
quickly and the dog jumped at myface and like literally just
bit me and I like it happened soquick.
I don't even remember feelingthe bite, it was just very like
numb, almost because theadrenaline.
And I looked over at one of myother friends and he turned
really pale and he was like youneed to go to the hospital and I
(29:16):
was like what?
And of course I go in thebathroom his blood gushing out
of my face and I actually wasstrangely calm.
Again, I don't know if it wasthe adrenaline, I don't know if
it was all that stuff that washappening, but going to the
emergency room.
I just had pulled in like acloth on my face and I was for
the most part fine, which isweird because normally that
(29:37):
would send me like right overthe edge, but it didn't, so that
I guess that's some progressright.
But I think it was probably theshock and the trauma that just
made it okay in that moment.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
Yeah, actually my father has been through
something similar.
He's always been really afraidof other people's blood and he
got a really bad cut on like asaw, and before he passed out
which he did eventually as hewas very calm and was able to
like walk a certain distance andget help, and then eventually
(30:12):
he passed out because it was alot of pain.
But I don't.
I think that's that might besort of common.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
Yeah, that makes sense.
What do you have?
Any?
Speaker 1 (30:20):
phobias Not that I know of.
Honestly, my sister, when I waslittle, had a terrible spider
phobia which is pretty common.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
So that goes back, by the way, to the urban legend
about the spider bite.
You know that right.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
Oh, gross yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
You know that one.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
Which I totally believed until I was probably 20
.
Yeah, how do you have any otherphobias than love?
Speaker 2 (30:49):
Not that are that intense.
I mean, I definitely have alittle bit of fear of heights,
but not to the point that itwould be debilitating.
I think it's a little bit moreof.
Again, it's physiological,where I get some vertigo if I'm
near something like, or tooclose to, something that has an
edge, um, but definitely notthat I can think of.
I mean, I think we also haveemotional phobias that are not
(31:12):
maybe rooted in the same type of.
The emotional phobias are notas physical, they don't carry
the same level of adrenaline.
I think that goes with it, asyou know, like a like a fear of
dying.
But, and you know you couldargue that pretty much all does
that one of is it john cabot zen, one of the buddhists actually
the john cabot zen, or I couldtotally I think he talks about
(31:33):
in one of the books about howall fears are really the fear of
annihilation, that you're goingto die somehow, and I guess
that makes sense if you reallythink about it, like all phobias
do boil down to some type oflike I'm going to die.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
Yeah, absolutely, when I was looking at the phobia
research, they kind ofcategorize different things.
So there's social phobias,which get kind of classified as
like fears of being in bigcrowds, and then of course
there's agoraphobia, which isthe fear of being outside, in
public, and that usually happenswhen people start having panic
(32:09):
attacks.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
Yeah, and what are some of the other common ones?
There's claustrophobia ispretty common.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
Yeah, claustrophobia, fear of flying, they kind of
clump some of the animal ones.
So dogs is really common,spiders, snakes, are very common
.
There are some beliefs thatsnakes and spiders and heights
are some of the bigger phobiasthat a lot of people have from a
(32:37):
long time ago.
So it's kind of like a geneticinheritance possibility with
those three.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
Well, that would make sense.
I mean, if you think about it,especially with like spiders and
snakes I mean back before wewere able to identify what's
poisonous and what's notpoisonous, there are certainly
spiders and snakes out therethat have enough venom to kill
somebody very quickly if theyget bitten.
So I'm sure there is like aprimal survival fight or flight
(33:04):
kind of coping skill that goeswith that.
And same thing with the fear ofheights, I would imagine too.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
And I'd go a step further and guess food
contamination.
You know, when you accidentallyeat something that's not,
you're not supposed to, and wehave like a biological response
to that.
So when we eat something oringest something that makes us
throw up, it triggers a responsein our mind to remember that
(33:30):
thing that made us throw up andwe don't want to ever eat that
thing again.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
God, I have two terrible stories about eating.
So one of them this is for along time I didn't eat pudding
because there was a scenariowhere my grandmother you know my
grandmother grew up during theDepression, like you know most
my grandfather did too.
They would save cooking fat.
Yep yep, right, and they wouldput in the refrigerator.
My grandmother also used tomake tapioca pudding all the
(33:59):
time, and there was one day thatI went in my grandmother's
refrigerator.
I know you know the way this isgoing and I see this bowl of
what looks like pudding andbecause usually she would leave
the grease on the stove.
So I thought, oh look, grandmamade pudding and I took a big
and I mean big spoonful ofgrease and I put it in my mouth
(34:19):
and I would like it was the mostdisgusting thing I think I've
ever eaten in my entire life,and that had I had an aversion
to anything that even lookedlike pudding for years.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
That's why, yeah, and if you've ever had a really bad
encounter with a specific typeof alcohol, you'll remember and
tell people not to put that kindof alcohol in your drink.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
Is that a personal story, or is that?
Speaker 1 (34:42):
No, no.
I remember from a psych class Iwas taking she was talking
about tequila in particular thatthat's a common one, that
people over it, uh, overdo.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
Or, as I call it, to kill you, cause that's what I
never liked the taste of that.
I think that's like one of themost vile alcohols out there in
terms of like taste.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
And you know, a worm just never sounded very good to
me.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
I don't know.
I mean, I think that's likevery high end tequila, like I
don't think I've ever seen abottle of tequila that I've
purchased or seen that had aworm in it.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
I wonder if that's an urban legend.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
I think it really does exist.
I just think it's probably likea very high end, very high end,
I would imagine.
I don't know, we'll have tolook that up.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
Yeah.
So you and I went on a ghosttour, which was super fun.
I highly recommend mysticconnecticut.
We had an awesome time, um, andwhen we were, uh, going through
the ghost tour, a few thingslike kind of stuck out to me
that I thought we might talkabout is.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
Does that include the evp machine I was using or no?
Speaker 1 (35:50):
yes, does it okay?
Okay, go, go ahead.
You want to start off with?
Speaker 2 (35:54):
that.
Well, no, I don't know whereyou're going, so you talk first
and I'll add it in if it'srelevant.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
Well, so, mr, connecticut, if you've never
been, is the port town inConnecticut.
It's beautiful and when youwalk around you just have this
like good feeling, you know.
But the history of it is reallykind of disturbing and as we
started our ghost tour, I wasreally kind of grateful that
that's where the tour guide kindof started, with a telling of
(36:24):
how there was a Pequot tribethat was massacred right in the
town, that the spirit of thosepeople, those ancestors, are
said to still be in the town,that the spirit of those people,
those ancestors, are said tostill be in the town and causing
fires I.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
I do want to say this really quickly before you,
before you finish that.
What I found really interestingand I know I mentioned it to
you and mike is as she's tellingthe story about the pequa nans
and the puritans and how theytrapped all the women and
children in the in the buildingand then lit it on fire and
burnt it down.
You know, I remember looking atthe two of you and saying, wow,
nothing changes.
Really nothing changes.
(37:00):
That's exactly what's happeningright now in Palestine and the
genocide that's happening.
It doesn't matter, like historyjust continues to recycle and
people don't seem to care.
That's my two cents on that.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
Well, I mean, there is something really creepy to me
after learning that, because Ididn't know that going into the
ghost tour Nor did I.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
That was all new information for me.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
And I think that's something I definitely should
have known because I've I livein Rhode Island.
We're really close.
I've been to Mystic a number oftimes, you know.
To be able to sort of payrespects to the people who lost
their lives feels reallyimportant to me and that just in
a kind of I think she did itrespectfully, but certainly we
could all do a little bit betterto respect Native Americans in
(37:45):
this country.
Yeah, so I did actually likethat part of the tour, though I
enjoyed learning a little bitmore history, that was true.
Well, do you want to talk aboutyour leader?
Speaker 2 (37:58):
so I I have these two apps that I use.
One's called ghost radar andthe other one is called spirit
hunter, I think.
Let me know spirit talker and Iwas, let me see if I could even
pull it up.
There was a story about twokids that were oh man, I don't
do you remember the story?
I don't remember very much.
It was two kids that haunted.
Speaker 1 (38:21):
It was like it was called the Emporium, so it was
kind of like one of those pennyshops where there would have
been lots of candy.
There was a factory nearby.
The story took place in theearly or the late 1900s and
these two kids, they think, wereprobably the fire keepers, so
they probably lit lamps andthings like that throughout the
house.
(38:41):
They actually didn't go intodetail about how the children
died, they just sort ofdisappeared in the story.
But there have been multiplesightings of children in this
building.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
And there were two boys and one girl, correct?
Speaker 1 (38:56):
I think it was just two boys.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
Two boys, because there was a girl somewhere.
I don't know if it was in thehouse.
That was the brothel, but therewas like the tickling ghost
that she mentioned.
Speaker 1 (39:05):
Well, the giggling ghost was a different building.
There was a brothel in thatsame emporium upstairs and there
was a story about a woman whoactually left footprints in
paint that was drying on thefloor okay um, there was a man
there who saw it happen.
(39:25):
He had actually been paintingthe floor and he heard like the
click clacking of heels, andwhen he went downstairs he
couldn't.
He could still hear the sound,but he couldn't find the person.
And later, when he wentupstairs, there were women's
footprints in the paint, and soit was pretty interesting,
(39:45):
because they actually chargedpeople in the town to come and
see the footprints in the paintfor a really long time.
Speaker 2 (39:53):
Which makes you wonder if that was actually
staged or if it really happens,you know, because obviously
that's very profitable.
But the thing I just saw Ilooked up the app because it
keeps a history of what it said,and we were sitting in the
restaurant that these two kidsare allegedly supposed to haunt
and it said I'm over here.
Then it said I'm only seven.
And then it said I'm hidinghere.
And then it said I'm hidinghere and then it said we're not
(40:15):
at peace, and that freaked allof us out.
And then at one point Mike saidsomething about age.
And then it said age.
He was telling the story and hewas like, oh, when I was 19.
And then it said age, likeright, as he said that was the
other thing.
That was kind of freaky and Iknow people are like, well,
maybe it hears you, maybe it,maybe it doesn't hear you, but I
was also telling a story abouthow, um, when my cat recently
(40:38):
had, uh, passed away, they hadsent me an email saying that the
remains had been.
The remains were in because shewas cremated and the app turned
on the phone later on that day.
It was on my, it was on mycounter, it was nowhere near me
and it turned on and it saidthey cremated my body.
That was when I was like, okay,I was freaking out a little bit
(40:58):
that's terrifying to me but youknow, that's the stuff that, as
much as I find it terrifying, itstill like excites me.
I'm like, oh, that's so coolyou know.
Speaker 1 (41:07):
No, you're pretty funny, you were really looking
for it I really was.
Speaker 2 (41:10):
I think I freaked out the waitress a little bit when
I was working on the things itwas saying.
You know, I'm definitely one ofthose people that's like I want
to see it.
I want to see it right now.
Speaker 1 (41:22):
What's your favorite ghost story?
Speaker 2 (41:25):
Oh, that's a really good question.
I don't know.
I mean we talked about MercyBrown.
I mean that's not really one ofmy favorites, but that's a
local one.
I don't know if I can think ofa favorite one off the top of my
head.
Do you want to tell the storyabout Mercy Brown?
Speaker 1 (41:39):
for, like all the Rhode, Island listeners, I'm
sure most of them know anyway,but so I'm from Exeter, rhode
Island I'm sorry 1880s, I'm fromthe 1980s.
So there was a couple, thomasand Mary Brown, and they had
(42:03):
five daughters and one son, andMary Brown was a farm wife.
She was really hardworking,well-respected, and then she was
.
Her body was pretty muchravaged by consumption.
She became really fragile.
Everybody was kind of scaredwith what happened to her body,
particularly.
Speaker 2 (42:22):
And consumption is the previous name for
tuberculosis.
Speaker 1 (42:26):
Right right, which at that time was really hitting
Rhode Island pretty hard, asother places as well.
So she passed away in this likesmall rural town and then a
year later her oldest daughter,mary, also got sick and she
actually reported having baddreams in which a crushing
(42:48):
weight was stealing her life asshe was sleeping which would
certainly happen if you hadtuberculosis because it affects
the lungs.
But nobody at the time was likeputting that together.
Several years pass after shedies and their only son starts
to have tuberculosis symptoms.
So he gets sent out West.
(43:08):
But then his little sister,mercy, dies and it's like really
quick and Mercy's only about 18when she dies.
At this point it's been almost10 years since her mother had
first died.
Her brother, edwin, comes backand as soon as he comes back to
Rhode Island his tuberculosiscomes back full force and he
(43:30):
starts to lose a lot of weight,lose a lot of energy and
everybody gets really scared.
And during that time you havethe New England sort of panic
about vampires.
So there were already like talkthroughout the different states
about if there were vampiresand spirits were causing
(43:51):
tuberculosis and consumption.
When Mercy dies, edwin comesback and he's not feeling well.
The town goes into a panic andthey really put pressure on
Mercy's father to exhume thebodies and see if one of them
had been stealing the life ofEdwin.
So the father doesn't want todo it at first, but then finally
(44:12):
he does.
He kind of succumbs to thepressure.
They exhume the bodies and theyfind that mercy her.
They take out her heart.
Um, her mom and her sister'sbodies were just bones at that
point, which would make sensebecause it's been over 10 years.
Mercy had only been buried fora couple of months and she was
(44:32):
in like a crypt above ground infreezing cold weather.
Speaker 2 (44:37):
Yeah, because it was during the winter, wasn't it?
Speaker 1 (44:39):
Yeah, so it makes sense that her body was still
preserved.
And even at the time and it wasreported in the newspaper that
a doctor who was looking at thebody said this is totally normal
, and still the townspeople didn.
Looking at the body said thisis totally normal, and still the
townspeople didn't believe himand said if there's blood in her
heart, she's certainly suckingthe blood out of Edwin.
(45:00):
What you mean?
Even back then people didn'tbelieve experts.
History repeats itself.
There we go all over again.
Yeah, so basically they cremateMercy's heart and liver and make
a tonic with the ashes andserve it to her brother.
(45:21):
Tonic doesn't work.
Her brother dies and that'skind of where the story of Mercy
Brown ends.
But what's kind of crazy to meis that she had three other or
four other sisters, three othersisters and they all died
subsequently.
Afterwards they think that thefamily had like what's called
(45:42):
galloping tuberculosis.
So you are asymptomatic foryears and years and then finally
you have symptoms and you youpretty much die very quickly.
So it's just, it's a really sadstory, but people still go to
the grave.
I used to live in that town, soon Halloween especially, you
see people leaving flowers andvisiting and yeah, it's still a
(46:06):
pretty big deal.
Speaker 2 (46:08):
And her gravestone was stolen at one point in time.
Speaker 1 (46:11):
Yeah, which is crazy.
I don't know how that happens,even.
Speaker 2 (46:18):
Well, I mean people do.
People are not always thegreatest.
Speaker 1 (46:24):
I think this story, though it's really sad, and if
you look at it from a feministperspective, the town only did
something when the son was introuble.
They kind of like persecutethis like young child and nobody
ever like gets really upsetthat the other daughters keep
dying.
Speaker 2 (46:41):
And I think the only, there was only one, one child
that lived past the age of 25,right the rest of them all died
before that?
Yeah, and did she die?
Did she die shortly after sheturned 25?
Do you know, or was it?
No?
Yeah, did she die.
Did she die shortly?
Speaker 1 (46:53):
after she turned 25?
Do you know, or was it no?
So the one daughter who didsurvive actually lived to be in
her 70s.
Speaker 2 (47:00):
Wow, which is actually for that time frame.
That's pretty impressive.
Yeah, you know.
The other thing they talkedabout during the ghost tour is
the pictures they used to takeof because people would die
really young, so the family, thepictures they would take of
kids that had been deceased is Ithink it's called memento Morio
or something like Moria,something like that.
Speaker 1 (47:23):
I think right.
Well, memento Moria is Latin,it's remember you will die.
Throughout history, you havethese little like pockets of
periods where artists,especially like Gleamon, to
Memento Mori, and so they makepictures of people being
(47:43):
confronted with their death.
I think the pictures you'rereferring to although I don't
know the name of it occurred inthe 1800s, when young children
were dying and families didn'thave enough money to actually
take pictures of the wholefamily together.
Unfortunately, you know, if youlose a child, that's your last
(48:06):
chance, so they would actually,you know, stage the dead people
next to other participants inthe family.
They're really kind ofdisturbing and heartbreaking no,
they really are.
Speaker 2 (48:18):
The only thing I can find is a post yeah, okay, so it
says it's known as post-mortemphotography or a momentum mori
photographic.
Speaker 1 (48:27):
So okay, I was.
Speaker 2 (48:28):
I'm sorry I thought that that was the name of it.
I just wasn't 100% certain.
They're really morbid lookingand sometimes when you look at
the picture, you're not alwayscertain which person is actually
deceased Sometimes it's notalways super clear.
Speaker 1 (48:42):
But they are absolutely creepy.
A lot of them actually took thephotograph of the child and it
looks like they're sleeping intheir bed, which that is even
more discerning to me.
Speaker 2 (48:53):
But there are a couple where they have kids
lined up in a line and one ofthem is deceased.
Sometimes it's really obvious,sometimes it's not, it's just.
I mean, I get it.
It's a different time frame.
We did different things backthen.
Speaker 1 (49:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (49:08):
Well, that was a fun episode.
It was very, very much forHalloween.
Well, that was a fun episode.
(49:36):
It was very, very much forHalloween.
I did want to.
I want to throw in a couple ofthings, because the election is
next week and he sent me amessage saying that the
apartheid state of Israel bombedIran and his mom and sister are
there.
So of course he was very upsetabout that and it's just really
frustrating what's going onright now.
And I saw a video of Bernie theother day and I know lots of
people are Bernie fans, but ifyou ask me, there is no such
thing, no such thing right nowas any political leader that is
(49:59):
on the right side of history inour country.
They're all horrible, they'reall compromised, they're all
owned.
You know where he's talkingabout.
You know he's doing all thesethings to try to stop the war,
but he can't say the wordgenocide because his master
won't let him say that.
It's really frustrating.
He particularly pisses me offbecause, if anybody knows about
the state of Vermont, so at onepoint in time Rutland was known
(50:21):
as the heroin capital of theUnited States and they have the
second highest rate ofhomelessness in the country.
The guy can't even take care ofhis own state.
That's among other things.
I mean, at one point, pointrelin had more bars per capita
than any other country uh, Imean, I'm sorry than any other
state in the country.
And the retirement you can't.
You know, a lot of people can'teven afford to live there.
(50:42):
So he's one of the people thatalways pisses me off because he
is just like a I don't even knowhow to describe him.
He likes to pretend he's doingall these great things when he
really he's just a mouthpiecelike the rest of them.
But what I wanted to say is Ithink I have gotten to the point
where you know I think wetalked about this a little bit
on the car ride back that I knowwhoever wins is going to be
(51:02):
terrible.
So I mean I'm not going to atthis point, lose sleep over it
because I know it's just goingto end disastrously.
But what I want everybody to dois just remember that if we
continue to vote for the lesserof two evils, if that's what we
continue to do, we're going tocontinue to get evil and that
the only way to break that cycleis to stop doing that.
Either option is terrible.
We are pure voting for Harris.
(51:25):
You are signing the deathwarrant of pretty much anybody
in Palestine.
I mean, they have killed morekids under the Biden-Harris
administration than I think inhistory and we continue to fund
that.
They continue to fund that withour tax dollars.
You can turn a blind eye tothat, pretend it's not happening
, if you vote for her becauseyou see her as the lesser of two
evils.
But you are signing the deathwarrant of kids and women in
(51:51):
Palestine and other countrieswhere we are just attacking them
willy-nilly to prevent this.
You know, to keep this idea ofself-defense.
You know Israel has a right todefend itself by shooting babies
in the head and harvestingorgans.
And you know what are theydoing now Marching people with
numbers on them and putting themin mass graves.
Where have we seen that before?
And again, that is under theHarris-Biden administration.
(52:13):
So for those of you who thinkthat she's this great person,
she's not.
And the other alternative is apsychopathic, narcissistic
person who is going to continueto keep the country divided and
everybody hating each otherwhile spreading mass lies.
I mean, neither one of them aregood options.
I think we have to stoppretending that they are.
Again, I'm not going to tellyou who to vote for, but if you
(52:33):
do vote for either one of them,you do then not get to come back
and say how bad you feel forthe people dying because you
signed it.
That's my stance on that.
I don't know, I just feel likeI had to say it.
I don't know if you want to addanything to that.
Speaker 1 (52:48):
I just want to encourage everybody to vote.
Your vote really does matter,so I'm going to be neutral here.
Speaker 2 (52:56):
You're going to be neutral.
I'm so not neutral right now,and you know, I think you know.
Again I mentioned this inConnecticut and Rhode Island we
have career politicians thatneed to be voted out across the
board.
They certainly do not help thestates.
They are sending all of our taxdollars to bomb tents while
letting the people in ourcountry stay homeless.
(53:16):
So again, that's my stance.
So again, thank you everybodyfor joining us.
We are going to be coming upwith a new logo in the next week
or so.
Cora and I have an idea aboutdoing like a free giveaway for
some merch to get people to sendideas of things they want us to
(53:36):
talk about.
Speaker 1 (53:37):
Yeah, so please send us your what you want to hear us
discuss.
Uh, we love hearing fromlisteners and we really
appreciate everything you do.
Speaker 2 (53:47):
Thank you everybody and until next time.
Have a great day, Enjoy yourHalloween.
Speaker 1 (53:53):
Happy Halloween.
Speaker 2 (53:53):
Hello everybody and thank you again for listening.
(54:16):
This is just a reminder that nopart of this podcast can be
duplicated or copied withoutwritten consent from either
myself or Wendy.
Thank you again.
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