August 9, 2025 • 65 mins
Dog training experts Zac George and Bree join us to explore the dark side of animal training and how the weaponization of the human-animal bond perpetuates systems of oppression. We examine how our treatment of animals reflects deeper societal values about power, control, and our approach to both animal and human behavior.
• Traditional dog training methods often rely on pain and fear, including shock collars, prong collars, and physically harmful techniques
• The police dog system has roots in colonialism and was historically used to control marginalized communities
• When an animal misbehaves, asking "why" rather than focusing on stopping the behavior leads to more effective and humane solutions
• The parallels between punitive approaches to animal behavior and human behavior in our criminal justice system
• How fear-based training makes veterinary care more difficult and sometimes dangerous for animals
• The importance of consent, cooperation, and relationship-building in animal training
• The story of Mohammed Bahar, a Palestinian man with Down syndrome who was killed by a police dog, highlighting the human cost of weaponizing animals
To learn more about modern, humane dog training techniques, follow Zac George's Dog Training Revolution on YouTube or find their intersectionality content on Instagram and Facebook.
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cz9drj14e0lo
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/aharon-bonus-episode-innocent-and-pure-from-sin/id1624487374
Zac:
https://instagram.com/zakgeorge
https://TikTok.com/@thezakgeorge
https://facebook.com/thezakgeorge
Bree
https://instagram.com/breejustine
https://avsab.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/AVSAB-Humane-Dog-Training-Position-Statement-2021.pdf
https://perretologia.substack.com/p/weapon-dogs
https://www.themarshallproject.org/mauled
https://www.democracynow.org/2023/7/27/hannah_beckler_investigation_prison_dogs
https://www.businessinsider.com/correctional-officers-prison-staff-attack-dogs-bite-2023-7
https://www.aaihs.org/police-dogs-and-anti-black-violence
https://daily.jstor.org/the-police-dog-as-weapon-of-racial-terror
Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!):
https://uppbeat.io/t/hartzmann/no-time-to-die
License code: S4CEQWLNQXVZUMU4
Artwork and logo design by Misty Rae.
Special thanks to Joanna Roux for editing help.
Special thanks to the listeners and all the wonderful people who helped listen to and provide feedback on the episode's prerelease.
Please feel free to email Matt topics or suggestions, questions or feedback.
Matt@unitedstatesofPTSD.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
This podcast is not intended to serve as therapeutic
advice or to replace anyprofessional treatment.
These opinions belong to us anddo not reflect any company or
agency.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Hello everybody and welcome back to another episode
of the United States of PTSD.
I have Erica back with me todayand we have two guest speakers,
zach and Brie.
If you would like to introduceyourselves, that would be
fantastic.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
Yeah, I'm Zach George .
I make dog training videos.
We do advocacy work.
We focus on intersectionalityand trying to make the animal
care profession a better place.
Bree is my partner andco-producer and the brains
behind everything.
Speaker 4 (00:54):
Yep, yeah, that's true.
I've been working with Zach for, I want to say, 14 years, now a
long time.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
I do want to mention that these two amazing human
beings are people that I work incommunity with in the animal
care world as far as thisconcept of decolonial work in
general, especially around thehuman-animal bond.
And so Zach was one of thepeople who spearheaded the
(01:23):
public discourse andconversation within social media
about the weaponization of thepeople who spearheaded the
public discourse andconversation within social media
about the weaponization of thehuman-animal bond and the
concept of policing and policedogs, and that was part of our
common ground conversation today.
As far as to talk about howanimal training, animal training
(01:43):
world, which we'll see if weget into this.
But there's a whole lot ofstuff happening there that you
two could probably talk about ifyou would like, about this
concept of what is the nature ofthe relationship between people
and animals and how do weutilize animals in society with
that relationship ethically,especially because there's just
(02:04):
such a longstanding history ofexploitation of animals by
people.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Thank you, erica, if I could add one piece of that
too, because I know people loveto hear the creation of things
right, like how something cameabout.
So, zach, if you could also add, or Brie, how you came to do
this in the first place, likewhat led up to the work that you
do as part of what Erica isalso talking about.
Speaker 4 (02:28):
I'll go because I think my answer might be shorter
.
I don't know, but for me it'skind of one and the same, as far
as well, when you were talkingabout the weaponization of the
bond and all of that somethingpeople don't always think about.
When they think about the issueof police dogs, for example,
they think are those dogstrained in a kind way or not?
(02:51):
And they sort of stop there andthe answer, unfortunately, is
usually not, almost always not.
But in addition to that, evenif those dogs are trained kindly
, the entire concept of carceralpolicing is exactly the same
problem as the question they'reasking when they're saying are
those dogs trained kindly?
(03:11):
If you think that you shouldn'tpunish dogs, for me it follows
punishment doesn't really workfor people either.
So it's just sort of been aslow and then fast snowball
effect of decolonial learningfor me.
Like once I started reallydigging into my thoughts on dog
training, it was a surprise.
I really thought I was going tojust learn how to clicker train
(03:32):
a dog and all of a sudden I'mlike the entire world has
changed for me.
My worldview has totallyshifted.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Yeah, it's interesting that you say that.
As a person who is Eric, I knowyou're a vet and both of you
have worked largely with animalsand, having only the experience
of pets, you know as you cansee my cat right there I would
have never, it would have never,crossed my mind to think about
how police dogs are traineduntil you said that I would
(04:00):
think more about how the dangersthey were and afterwards, or
how they are, they're exploitedor how they're used afterwards,
I never would have thought aboutthe training and so you just
said that, so I'm not sureeverybody would be aware of that
.
Speaker 4 (04:10):
Yeah, that's a good point.
I've been kind of deep in thedog training space about it now
and I find, at least withinanimal training, people often
stop with that question.
But you're right, for thegeneral public I don't know what
they ask.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Yeah is it?
Are the dogs happy when they gohome?
I'm not sure.
I would never even think aboutthat stuff, so I'm really glad
that you brought that up.
What and what was it that ledyou to start that work?
Like, what did you have apassion about working with
animals before that?
Like, how did you get to thispoint?
Speaker 3 (04:40):
Yeah, I've been.
I've been training Back started.
Speaker 4 (04:42):
It is the answer.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
I've been training dogs about this approximate.
I guess this is my 20th year inthe dog training field and I've
always been involved.
But you know I started from dogsports.
I, you know, performed in stuntdog shows.
I eventually evolved my careerinto showing people at home how
to train their dogs through, youknow, a couple of TV shows that
I've had, but my YouTubechannel is, you know, what I'm
(05:10):
most proud of there.
That's, you know, I thinkreally helps spread the word
about modern dog training.
But you can't help but noticeall the different ways that
people train dogs and I'vealways been really passionate
about trying to bring progressto this field, which I'm
passionate about, and rule outpain and fear when we're
teaching dogs right.
Believe it or not, it's quitecommon in the professional dog
training sector for people touse intentional pain and fear,
(05:33):
and that really applies to a lotof police dog training.
And even if it didn't, even ifthey are trained with positive
methods, like Bree was saying,they are still contributing to
upholding problematic systems insociety, right.
Speaker 4 (05:49):
We understand a carceral response is not
reformative, right, and sothat's important to us in animal
care, in our daily work,because part of our whole, I
guess, activist message I wantto put activist in quotes
because I feel like it's wildthat this is a question but part
(06:10):
of our whole message is thatthat's not helping your dog.
You know, we understand fromwhat we know about learning with
people that punishing themisn't going to help them change
their behavior in a way that'sgood for their welfare or their
long-term life, and the same istrue with dogs and any animal.
Them change their behavior in away that's good for their
welfare or their long-term life,and the same is true with dogs
and any animal.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
And so, yes, I wanted to say, as we were untangling
why people train dogs with thesemethods you can't ignore the
way that law enforcement andmilitary dogs are trained and
what the origins are there andwhy they came about in the first
place.
And guess what?
It's to suppress minoritizedcommunities around the world.
(06:48):
I mean, that's really what's atthe heart of it, and so that's
why we couldn't help but noticethat, and we noticed there's a
lot of mixed messaging in thedog training community, Like a
lot of the conversation has beenwell, as long as they're
training them with modernmethods, it should be okay.
And so we think that is not theright direction because it
exploits dogs.
And of course, we would have togo over a lot here to explain
(07:10):
why it's problematic, because Iknow a lot of people hear this
and they think well, don't weneed police dogs?
Aren't they heroes?
You know this is how they'represented in modern media and
things like that.
There's a lot of backgroundthere.
I don't know how you want totackle that.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
It actually 100% makes sense now that you've
described it, because I can seehow that would happen Again.
It's just something I don'tthink I would have thought about
until somebody said it.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
So what I would like to suggest is like a three-step
process.
Number one I would love it ifthe two of you and Matt, if you
would like to contribute this toexpand a little bit on this
concept of the carceral systemand reformative systems, because
I do think that that isspecific language that maybe not
(07:58):
everyone listening may have haddeep experience with,
especially from the concept ofliberatory framework.
So that's step one.
Step two is this conversationabout these systems that are
problematic, in which militaryand police dogs, or this concept
(08:21):
of control in the human-animalbond when it comes to dogs and
potentially other militaryanimals, we could talk about,
for example, mounted policehorses and horses being utilized
to do what they callquote-unquote crowd control,
which actually involvestrampling people with horses,
which is horrifically violentand very damaging.
(08:44):
And then, lastly, in thatcounterpoint of creating a
vision for people about what thehuman-animal bond can do, why
do we need to even engage inthese systems of violence when
the human-animal bond has suchwonderful things that we can
emphasize?
So, search and rescue, serviceanimals, the animals as utility
(09:06):
for the human medical well-beingright, and those kinds of
things.
So that's what I'm going to putforward, that's the veterinary
anti-oppressionist talking.
What do you?
Speaker 2 (09:17):
think obviously between the carceral system and
the use of punishment withpeople.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
And what the two of you are, the three of you are
also talking about, and itdoesn't work.
I mean, I work a lot withaddiction.
That's been, that's mybackground and addiction is a
great example of this in termsof how we treat it.
We call it a disease, but wetreat it as a moral issue, and
that is from top to bottom.
So we do it in the court system.
We that is from top to bottom.
So we do it in the court system, we do it in the prison system,
(09:44):
we do it in the treatmentsystem, while at the same time,
we're saying it's a disease, butwe treat it in an incredibly
punitive way.
I know when I first started atthe field, they did things like
they would shave people's headsin treatment and you would have
to, like, earn a pencil or earna pen to earn your rights.
At the same time, they'recalling it a disease.
So we see that all over theplace.
(10:06):
Our entire prison system ismeant to be a revolving door, so
I see the parallel between thatand what you're talking about
with animal welfare as well.
Speaker 4 (10:15):
Yeah, it reminds me of, if you think about,
basically any of the worstproblems a dog could have.
So if a dog is biting people orI mean, that's usually the
worst, but there's, you knowthere's many like or being
destructive at home, I guesswould be another one fearful of
strangers.
Almost all of those bad dogs,those dogs that are like lunging
(10:39):
and barking on a walk, doingthings that people really don't
want them to do, are doing thatbecause they're afraid or their
welfare is compromised, notalways through the fault of the
person.
The dog could have a medicalissue or the environment's just
not right for them, but none ofthose things are the dog's fault
(10:59):
, and so punishing those fearfulbehaviors is just egregious to
me.
And yeah, you're right, it'sreally, really similar in a lot
of ways to a lot of human issuesthat we think about.
So, yeah, that's what I alwayscome back to.
It just became unavoidable tome.
I mean I did enter this thoughtprocess thinking shouldn't
police dogs be positivelytrained, and it took, I mean it
(11:21):
was like a week and a half of uslearning about it, and then we
were like, wait, what did thosepeople do?
Why are the dogs biting them?
They don't have due processLike what, how, what right do we
have to send an animal whodoesn't deserve to be in that
situation after a person who,first of all, shouldn't be
criminalized regardless becausewe know that it's not
(11:42):
reformative?
Second of all, they don't evenhaven't even been given their
rights of like due process and ajury and stuff.
So it yeah, it just is.
It becomes a natural conclusionfor me, and the parallels just
keep being unignorable.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
I thought of another one, and I don't know if the two
of you or Erica, you may evenknow the answer to this.
I saw a study a while ago thatI think it was, in 16 or 15
states in the United States it'sillegal to remove a puppy from
a dog before the age of eightweeks old because of how much
damage it does to the puppy.
However, we have no problemremoving children from people at
(12:23):
birth, even though there isample studies and evidence that
would suggest, if not prove,that it damages people.
Right.
So there is a lot of, and myunderstanding and correct me if
I'm wrong with this is thatchild welfare rights also came
out of animal welfare rights.
Is that correct?
Speaker 4 (12:45):
I'm not sure which came first.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
I mean, I know the parallels I thought for some
reason I thought animal welfareactually came first.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
I do.
I do actually think that thatis the case.
Let me we'll cross check it.
But there are many instanceswhere the conditions of animals
are thought about more than theconditions of the marginalized
identity people that are beingtargeted or existing in parallel
(13:17):
space.
And wow, we could go into deep,deep discussion.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
Yes, we could.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Gaza and Palestine.
That could actually probably inits own right be a separate
episode, and I also appreciatethat reflection of like.
Yes, there are, like when wenavigate in veterinary medicine,
we call them bottle babies, andit's not just dogs, it's also
cats, right, and other animalsthat we interact with that don't
have the full experience or thenatural experience of that
(13:47):
period of maternal bonding, or Ishould say like about that,
like birth bonding.
That happens.
You know, we could.
I mean, I'll just put this inhere, we're not going to talk
about this too much, but this isa side quest.
Uh, you know, we can thinkabout the dairy industry in this
right.
Um, it's, it's also in foodsystems.
What I'd like to circle back to, because I think that there was
(14:12):
this natural concept of like,why we think about this fact of
absence of due process in thatwe are normalizing the fact that
someone who's literally justbeing chased by the cops you
know that there is a decisionmade that is judge, jury and
like execution of harm, theamount of trauma and physical
mauling.
(14:32):
Like I had veterinarians andother veterinary professionals,
we put ourselves at risk tobeing mauled intentionally with
tools available.
We understand that's anexpectation of that and there
have been veterinaryprofessionals killed by our, the
patients that we work withRight, and what I just want to
emphasize, and because I feellike Zach had something to say,
(14:55):
um to add to this in the contextof some and also in his work,
as far as what he's writtenabout it, about the fact that
sometimes these dogs not onlyare they attacking and
physically harming and maulingand sometimes disabling people
without any due process, thatthere are bystanders at times
(15:16):
that are impacted by this, andI'm passing it off to Zach
because this is something that-.
Speaker 3 (15:20):
Well, yeah, even a lot of I'm sorry, yeah, even a
lot of former police officers orpeople you know.
They they've talked about howit scarred them as well when
they've reflected on it andthey've experienced PTSD as well
from a lot of these.
These incidents only scratchingthe surface.
(15:41):
So your Fourth Amendment ispotentially violated by police
dogs.
That's an unreasonable seizure.
Your Eighth Amendment cruel andunusual punishment.
The Fifth and FourteenthAmendments the arbitrary use,
violating due process rights,which we talked about.
Potentially even the FirstAmendment when they use them at
protests to intimidateprotesters.
So these dogs are trampling allover constitutional rights.
(16:05):
Now, I realize the Constitutionneeds work, but if that's going
to be the law of the land rightnow, we can at least start by
honoring those basic fundamentalrights that are trampled on by
the practice of police dogs.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
Wow, zach, thank you for pointing that out, because
that's that's like huge.
But is it really the dogs thatare doing it or is it the
trainers that trained the dogsthat are doing it?
Speaker 4 (16:30):
it is, yeah, I noticed that you said that and I
was like he knows, it's not thedogs that are doing it.
Speaker 3 (16:34):
Did I misspeak there?
I was surprised by that.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
Thank you for clearing that up yeah, this is a
perfect example of like how wework together.
Oh my god, yeah so we'relearning something here, and
that I believe that themicrophones are like cutting off
based off of whose microphoneis the loudest.
That might be a feature of ofzoom, um, but yeah, so I'm gonna
let you finish your sentence.
(16:58):
There's that to make sure yourmicrophone picks it up.
What was the point?
Speaker 3 (17:01):
yeah, people are exploiting dogs right the the
fact that you know, very oftenyou'll see belgian malinois, for
example, or german shepherddogs used in in, uh, police
apprehension work.
They're exploiting how eager andhow intelligent and how curious
these animals are.
They're really exploiting thebest of these animals to do the
(17:24):
worst work in humanity right now, and that's what's so twisted
about it.
I mean, we've normalized thisbecause we've all grown up with
police dogs, like we're taughtthat they're heroes, we're
taught that they you know theyget the bad guys and there's not
really a lot of evidence thatthey're necessary at all, no
strong evidence that I'm awareof that they.
I'm not aware of any evidencethat they decrease crime.
(17:46):
They certainly don'tde-escalate situations and I
think most reasonable peopleshould agree that de-escalatory
practices are what we should beaiming for as well.
I mean the very root ofweaponizing dogs for practical
purposes for this conversationgoes back to the 1500s, when we
weaponized them against thenatives of north america uh,
(18:10):
what we call north america soand then we use them to hunt
down enslaved human beings,primarily africans, right and in
the united states, and wecontinue to use them as a tool
of oppression and the civilrights movement and to this day,
most people just think they'renormal, but they actually are
(18:31):
foundationally racist.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
I can think of another one that's less popular,
if you think back to theconnection between cats and
women historically, where theywould associate cats with
witchcraft and women and theywould, you know, use that as a
as a weapon against successfulwomen or women who were poor, or
women who, whatever I mean,they would just murder them.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
they would murder the cats, and that was another bond
that would also be broken it'sa really good point, yeah, and
I'll say this as a person whoworks very closely with cats.
So, like cats and certain dogsright, there are plenty of dogs
(19:16):
that have this particular traitof a certain amount of autonomy
and desire for trust building,right.
So a lot of the times with catsthat you have to do what's
called not all, but a higherpercentage of them, what I would
call invitation-basedcollaboration.
(19:37):
So a cat that has thisinclination and there are some
cats that are very amenable hasthis inclination, and there are
some cats that are very amenablethat a cat needs to know you or
be familiar enough with youbefore a cat allows certain
things to happen.
And there's a certain amount oftime that that takes.
And when you think about that inthe concept of relational
control, right, perhaps this iswhy historically sometimes
(20:02):
there's been a bond betweenindependent fem-bodied people
and felines, right Of thisconcept of where does the
control lie?
And I think that Zach and Briehave has, historically, other
interesting content about thisconcept of control, and there
(20:23):
are other veterinarians andcontent creators who also talked
about like controlled breeding,as well as what we call the
(20:49):
menageries of the rich who wouldpopulate as a status symbol,
populate their what do they callthem conservatory?
Or populate the precursors tozoos, basically with exotic
species that they would bring infrom other places, and
sometimes it would literallyjust be death, like it's just a
(21:11):
cycle of death, like they bringthese animals in to showcase
them without understanding theircare and would basically be
sentencing them to death out ofneglect and just exploitation.
So this exploitation of natureand planet and animals in it,
which is basically where I cameto veterinary medicine, is this
(21:36):
desire of human beings to wantto control things rather than
coexist with things, to controlthings rather than coexist with
things, to exert dominance overthings rather than to be in
community connection with, and Iwould say with my practice in
medicine and the wonderfulpeople that I get to meet, like
Zach and Bree and other peoplein our community that have this
(21:59):
determination to demonstrate toother people the type of
equitable, reciprocalrelationships that people can
have with animals and theirenvironment.
And we don't have the need toutilize this coercive control or
punitive control to have anabundantly productive
(22:22):
relationship with animals andenvironment.
And I'm off my soapbox.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
Okay, I want to go back to just one thing that I
was talking about, erica, beforeyou had mentioned that, and
then I want to go to Zach andBree, if you could talk about,
maybe, some of the techniquesthat are used, so that the
listeners will understand whatthat abuse looks like.
But to go back to what I wassaying about cats and women,
because we don't have to go downthis rabbit hole today, but
religion has also been used as away to vilify the connection
(22:50):
between people and animals, andparticularly with cats.
I don't know if you're familiarwith this, but the concept of
Friday the 13th being thisunholy, superstitious day and
black cats actually comesdirectly from the oppression of
women in history, because Freya,the goddess of love and beauty
and battle in Scandinaviancountries, is actually where the
word Friday comes from, andFreya was represented by cats,
(23:15):
particularly black cats, and shewas often depicted in a chariot
being pulled by cats, and herworshipers were one of the last
bastions of goddess paganworship that Christianity could
not get rid of.
So what they did was theyvilified her, they vilified her
priestesses, they vilified cats,they vilified everything about
it, because her worship wouldoften consist of 13 priestesses.
(23:40):
So they took Friday the 13th,which is a direct correlation
between goddess worship andFreya, and linked the cat to it
because that's what she wasdepicted as, and they used that
as a way to oppress women, killwomen, kill cats, do all of that
stuff examples of thathappening historically with
(24:01):
religion.
But I did want to throw thatout there.
And then if, zach and Brie, ifyou could talk about the
techniques that are used totrain these dogs that might be
helpful as well.
Speaker 4 (24:19):
Well, I'll mostly let Zach talk about the techniques,
but I wanted to start just bysaying did you know?
This is an anecdotal quotebased on my years of experience
in the dog training field, butit is not an official number
from any source.
But did you know that a largepercentage I'm going to say
(24:40):
probably about 50%, but I'll letZach guess of dog trainers in
America truly believe that dogsdon't have the ability to give
consent and they like talk aboutit as a talking point of their
training?
And I just the first time Iheard that my jaw was on the
(25:03):
floor for a week and a half,Like I was, like we have so much
work to do.
But anyway, I'll let Zach talkabout the techniques.
But the mindset is there.
It's a problem.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
Those are probably the same people who believe
their partners don't needconsent either.
I would just imagine.
Speaker 3 (25:17):
I mean, there you go, see, you're onto something here
, it's true.
I mean there are commonalitiesbetween, and characteristics
between, domestic violence andthe treatment of animals and
dogs, and that's something we'vetalked about a lot on my social
media, one of the morecontroversial things that we
talk about there, but it's, it'svery true.
Which I think is exciting welost, so yeah, the techniques
(25:42):
like okay, this mic, you can'thear me oh no, I see it green
again.
Yeah, something happened, that'sweird okay, um it's within zoom
, but, yeah, keep letting usknow you know, like kind of
tying it back to what we'retalking about with police dogs.
One of the reasons thatoutdated methods in dog training
(26:02):
persist, where we use painthings like shot collars or
prong collars being jerkedpretty firmly and abruptly One
of the reasons that we see thecontinued use of that is because
people look to what theyperceive, as you know, those
must be well-trained dogs, whenin fact these dogs are often
just exploited.
(26:23):
They're not usually the besttrained dogs in reality.
Speaker 4 (26:27):
Yeah, they're frequently out of control.
I don't encourage anyone to dothis, but if you look on YouTube
at police dog attacks, you willfind the majority of them end
with the officer having tophysically remove the dog they
don't like.
Call off the people.
Speaker 3 (26:42):
Right yeah they have a hard time getting them, yeah
um, but in terms of techniquesgo so like what I'm trying to
get at it here is there aredecades and decades centuries
actually of colonial cultureprioritizing taking behaviors
from dogs, making them dosomething, rather than than
(27:03):
motivating the dog to want to dosomething or appealing to their
intrinsic motivation of whatthey really value and to let
them actually be dogs.
And so the techniques that weuse and that we promote to the
public are really about cateringto the individual dog and
understanding the individual dogin front of you and what you
can do to make them feel safeand comfortable and confident.
(27:26):
First and foremost, we don'tbypass those things and then we
earn behaviors from them ifthey're willing to give them to
us, and it's up to us tomotivate those dogs to want to
do things.
But really fundamentally, theway we promote raising a dog is
in the same way that we thinkyou would ethically raise a
(27:47):
young child, right?
I mean, you wouldn't hit them,you wouldn't spank them, you
would try and be patient withthem and explain to them when
they're confused.
And there are ways to do thatwith dogs.
I mean dogs are veryintelligent animals, they're
mammals.
Speaker 4 (27:59):
All mammals are very intelligent, best I can tell,
although, yeah, I feel like itall in at least the everyday dog
training that we're usuallypresented with.
It all comes down to whether youare suppressing a behavior that
you don't want or whetheryou're actually motivating your
(28:20):
dog to change behavior.
And there's a lot of debatewithin the dog training
community about whether it'sever appropriate to suppress a
behavior, whether that's all youreally should do or whether you
should only motivate them,which is the side that Zach and
I fall on.
But yeah, it's just.
You know, when you look at adog that's doing those
(28:41):
problematic things like we weretalking about before biting or
lunging on a walk, if you justsuppress that symptom of fear,
you're not fixing the fear, andso the problem the dog might not
growl at strangers anymore, butthey might just go straight to
biting them instead, becauseyou've suppressed their symptoms
but you haven't actuallyaddressed the problem.
(29:04):
So it's bad for the dogs, butit's really bad for everyone.
It's just a shame.
The dog training world is a bigshame in a lot of ways, and so
we're trying to help hopefullychange it.
Did you want to hear about thebad methods or only the good
ones?
Speaker 2 (29:18):
Well, I think it's important that people know the
bad I mean in in theory.
I don't want to know, becauseignorance, you know what I mean,
but like we need to know, likethat's how we, that's how we are
going to change it, so tell usabout it yeah, and that's I mean
.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
These.
These harsh methods we'retalking about are very
widespread in dog trainingbecause it's an unregulated
field.
You don't need any license tobe a dog trainer.
No certification is required.
Anybody can wake up.
Literally anybody can wake upand be a dog trainer.
No certification is required.
Anybody can wake up.
Literally anybody can wake upand be a dog trainer, even if
they've never you know done thefirst bit of research.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
So how does that work in terms of like insurance?
So for, like, if you're a dogtrainer, then something happens.
Well, first of all do you haveto have insurance.
Speaker 3 (29:57):
I don't.
I mean you have to haveinsurance.
It's a good idea to haveinsurance.
I don't know if there's a lawrequiring it, but if you have
business, you know you shouldhave basic insurance in place
and stuff like that.
But, um, wow, but yeah, yeah,there's.
So there's no requirements, soyou get everything like you
would expect, Right, and so mostdog trainers are literally
unqualified to be doing whatthey're doing, and so that's the
(30:18):
unfortunate thing.
So it's a it's a consumerhealth and safety issue, because
the consumer really doesn'tnecessarily, they're not
guaranteed that they're going toget a quality dog trainer, Even
if a dog trainer has acertification.
There are certifying bodies outthere right now that still will
(30:39):
give a dog trainer credentials,even if that dog trainer is
going to use choke and prongcollars.
You know Bree mentioned amoment ago that it's a big
debate in the dog trainingcommunity, but where it is not a
big debate is in the veterinarybehavior community, which is
these are the people on earthwho are tasked with
(30:59):
understanding how trainingmethods, among other things, of
course, affect mental andphysical health more than any
other credentialed body on Earth.
Well, also based on scientificevidence right.
Speaker 4 (31:12):
Like without, because we don't want to hero worship
anyone either.
Like, as amazing as veterinarybehaviorists are, the real
reason they're amazing is justbecause they believe science,
they look at evidence and theytrust it and they don't say, nah
, I grew up pinching my dog'sbutt to get him to sit, or
(31:34):
whatever, like I don't care, myway works, so I'm not going to
do that better thing.
Speaker 3 (31:38):
Well, in our advocacy efforts it's always worth
mentioning here are neverdirected at really the general
public.
They're more directed atprofessionals who accept money
to then traumatize dogsessentially.
I mean that's often whathappens.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
I appreciate you both so much and I really I very
much appreciate this kickoff asfar as the veterinary behavior
world, which kind of segues intoone of the pioneers of the
veterinary behavior world, drSophia Yin, who committed
suicide and was the reason whyNot One More Vet was formed, and
(32:20):
so she was an Asian-Americanveterinarian working in san
francisco and she pioneered thefear-free component of
veterinary medicine, which isincredibly new, right and also
as far as a formalized field.
I think that there are probablythere people I view it from the
(32:44):
perspective as an AsianAmerican veterinarian with deep
roots in like Buddhist andTaoist culture that I have
always been practicing fear-freemethodologies, just like in
many indigenous cultures aroundthe world have practiced um,
fear-free, um processes, um andengaging in like animal kinship
(33:09):
and animal relationship for,like you know, thousands of
years.
So, first of all, we need tolike normalize the fact that
these modern bodies and namesand things were, are like
literally putting modern nameson things that are as old as the
relationship, as the human andanimal bond, right in human
history, um, but I I wanted tokind of bring that up because
(33:33):
absolutely zach is right thatlike veterinary behaviorists are
not having this conversationand I think that's because at
times veterinary behavioriststheir relationship begins and
start at the clinic door, andand also we rely because we have
options, pharmaceutical options, that we can dispense.
(33:55):
That that is the other reasonwhy veterinary behaviorists have
such great success, oftenbecause we also can and I am not
a formalized behaviorist right.
I often because we also can andI am not a formalized
behaviorist right.
There are whole trainingprocesses or residency programs
that have been established as amethodology of how should I say
like standards, there's moreregulatory bodies observing what
(34:19):
veterinary behaviorists aredoing, and that there are
additional tools that I wishmore veterinarians would work
with behaviorists and dogtrainers that they have long
established relationships with.
So that's something that I doregularly with this community
that Zach and Bray and I areconnected to, and I would
(34:40):
encourage veterinarypractitioners who don't have
training in animal behavior,formalized training in animal
behavior, to ensure that you'renot just handing out cards of
behaviorists or not just sayingyo just work with a behaviorist,
I guess I'll look around.
(35:01):
Right?
You have to do some qualitycontrol in who you are
recommending to work with theanimals that are under your care
.
Sometimes it takes a littlewhile, but do your due diligence
, make sure that you understandnot only the qualifications of
your animal behaviors, whetheror not they are in alignment
(35:22):
with fear-free techniques,whether or not they are in
alignment with fear-freetechniques, um, but also in the
context of, are thosebehaviorists qualified and ready
to work with very traumatizedanimals?
That's the other thing, becausethat needs to be happen to keep
both the trainer, the animaland the animal caretaker, you
(35:42):
know, or you know, companion,you know, companion animal
person, like all collectivelysafest as possible.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
So if we could circle back to the behavior stuff,
only because we we still haven'tgotten there.
We I know it's come up a coupleof times when we keep getting
sidetracked.
So what is that?
Can you give, give an exampleof why?
When erica was saying it'simportant to to vet these people
, um, what are they risking interms of not vetting the people?
(36:09):
So what does that behavior looklike?
What do the methods look likeif they're abusing these dogs?
Speaker 3 (36:15):
yeah, so if somebody is, uh, using outdated methods
you're talking about, what arethe side effects that they can
expect?
Speaker 2 (36:23):
no, what are, what are those methods?
What are they doing to thosedogs?
Speaker 3 (36:28):
Okay, you have something to say here before I
go.
Go ahead.
Speaker 4 (36:31):
Yeah, I can list the methods really quick, because I
was thinking about that earlier.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
Please.
Speaker 4 (36:36):
So some highlights, unfortunately, some bullet
points of common things thatpeople do with their dogs are,
of course, the prong collars,which are used very specifically
by being kept really high onthe neck and with a sharp,
straight upward pop of thecollar.
And so you'll hear people say aprong collar used properly very
(36:58):
often because proponents ofthem will see them like lower on
dogs'' necks etc and be likethat's not proper.
That's why the dog doesn't likeit, as if a dog loves it when
it's up real tight.
There's shot callers right,that's probably one of the most
common ones and a lot of peoplethink that is the answer to
(37:19):
their dog being off leash, whichI personally find terrifying.
Because can you imagine if youwere fearful and then, out of
the blue, in a way you can'tpredict, you got painful shocks
to your neck, while the thingyou're afraid of is in your face
?
I just feel like there are somany unwanted side effects that
(37:39):
really scare me that come withshock collars.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
Would you say that that's also true of those
electric fences that they have?
Speaker 4 (37:45):
Yeah, yes, In fact I read I'll have to look for the
study and try to send it to youand it was kind of old, to be
clear, but I read a study that'sprobably at least 10 years old
that said that the bark collars,which is another version,
there's the electric undergroundfences, the shock collars you
can just version.
There's the electricunderground fences, the shock
(38:05):
collars, you can just push abutton and do it at will, and
then there are all.
Speaker 2 (38:11):
Oh, you went out again.
Speaker 4 (38:12):
Also collars that dogs can Ah, I'm back.
One, two, three, am I back?
Yeah, yeah, okay.
There are shock collars peoplecan hold and push a button at
will, and then there are alsocollars that dogs can wear that
will just automatically shockthem when it senses a bark to
keep them silent.
And I read a paper that saidthose compromised welfare the
(38:35):
most the bark collars, becauseof all the different
unpredictable ways the collarcan respond to other sounds in
the environment If the dog isafraid and like trying to
vocalize, et cetera.
The other common technique thatI thought of immediately is
something that this is literallyin in, I don't want to say
(38:56):
textbooks, but this is an actualdescriptive term that some dog
trainers think is legitimate.
We do not.
It's called hanging andhelicoptering, which is what
they think you should do to adog who is basically like really
freaking out at the end of aleash, and so you just sort of
literally lift them by the neckso that their front feet are not
(39:17):
on the ground anymore, and sothey, you like, constrict their
airway until, I guess, they calmdown.
Some dogs get very physicallyhurt by this, but unfortunately,
the only way that you could,the only way that someone's
going to get in trouble atrainer, et cetera for doing
this to your dog is, if youwitness it, bring them to the
(39:38):
vet.
Get the vet to write a reportof the injury, bring that to the
police things that most peopledon't do because they literally
see their dog's behaviorsuppressed and they think that
worked because my dog is quietnow.
It's really unfortunate.
That's my least favorite.
Speaker 3 (39:53):
Yeah, so fear, anxiety, increased aggression,
mistrust are some of the topside effects of Zach you cut out
again Using these methods.
Sorry, okay, I'm so sorry aboutthat.
Y'all, it's a new mic.
I appreciate your patience onthat.
(40:14):
Maybe it's your cord.
So fear, anxiety, mistrustbetween a person and a dog and
aggression are some of the mostcommon side effects from using
these methods.
So while you suppress behavior,you're now creating other
issues, pretty fundamental stuff.
I mean.
We know, if we treat a kid likethis, those are going, they're
going to have issues, and thoseissues are preventable.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
Same type of deal.
This may not, this may not befair for me to say, but you know
, I like I also want to blamethe dog owner.
Right?
I mean, I am not, I've notreally owned dogs myself, but I
had dogs growing up with my, myparents.
And if somebody told me, as acat owner, that if I shocked my
cat or if I hung them at the endof a leash, or if I put them,
(41:00):
if I put these spiked things ontheir neck, that their behavior
would go away, then I shouldn'town a cat, I mean, maybe that's
not fair to say.
Speaker 3 (41:10):
Well, I mean, it's like I try not to come down on
everyday people who fall victimto this.
This is baked in.
This is why we're doing thework here, right?
Because this is baked intocolonial culture, this idea that
we suppress behavior that wewant.
So for many people they'reraised with it being very
normalized.
Now, yes, I agree thataccountability is necessary and
(41:30):
again, where I choose to focusmy efforts are with
professionals who are tellingthese everyday people to use
these methods.
Speaker 2 (41:36):
You know I try not to oh no, I know I, I know I hear
you're not, but I'm going toBecause it just.
You know, we were talkingyesterday, Eric, about just
critical thinking, and there's alack of critical thinking.
If you do not, if you thinkelectrocuting something is a
good idea, you should probably Idon't know check your moral
(41:58):
compass and try again.
Speaker 3 (42:01):
Yeah, I agree with you.
Yeah, and the laws of learningand the side effects we talked
about, I mean you know as well,I mean better than I do those
are the laws of learning applyto all animals.
We haven't found an exceptionto that so far when we've
checked.
Speaker 2 (42:15):
That's so disturbing.
Thank you for sharing that.
I just saw a video the otherday, I think it was, of a dog
groomer that was caught on avideo cam of smashing the dog
into the table a couple of timesto like control its behavior so
that they could then groom thedog I'm.
If that were my dog, theyprobably would never find that
person.
I'm just going to say that.
Speaker 4 (42:37):
Well, there's.
There's another element to thisthat I like to bring up when
I'm doing the critical thinkingtoo, which is that we so imagine
.
You're a person Right and, andyou have.
Speaker 2 (42:54):
Wait, wait, we're not .
Speaker 4 (42:59):
Just like, just just for a moment.
Imagine you're a person and youhave a dog who is maybe two
thirds as big as you are andthey're really excited to see
you, but they're jumping on youand they have these claws and
they're like scratching and theycould truly break your skin,
like they could knock you downand hurt you.
(43:19):
If you stop that behavior, youjust rewarded yourself right
From.
What we know about laws oflearning is that if something
aversive, something negative ishappening to me and it stops,
I'm more likely to do again thebehavior that made that aversive
(43:42):
thing stop, and so I think it'sreally important for animal
trainers to remember that we cantrain ourselves if we're not
careful, that it can berewarding.
Speaker 2 (43:58):
Oh, you cut out again , I'm so sorry To punish a dog.
That's all right.
You said it could be rewarding.
And then?
Speaker 4 (44:03):
you that it could be rewarding to punish a dog
because, like, if your dog isbarking all day and you stick a
shock collar on them and theydon't bark anymore, from your
perspective your life is better.
And so if you're notconsidering the world Up from
(44:27):
the other animals, are we back?
Yeah, yeah.
The point is, punishment isreinforcing to the punisher, and
I believe my last example I wasgiving is that if you, if your
dog is barking all day and youstick a shock collar on them,
then you have rewarded yourselfbecause the barking stops on
(44:48):
them than you have rewardedyourself because the barking
stops.
And so we just have to rememberboth, both sides of the
equation, like both animals thatare being trained within the
situation that we're approaching, so that we don't accidentally
reinforce ourselves but harm theother animal right and when you
have the compass or when youhave the uh, welfare of the
(45:08):
learner, first and foremost, ithelps you avoid that.
Speaker 2 (45:13):
I had.
I had a situation that actuallyhappened today.
So I told Erica yesterday thatI just got a new, I just adopted
a new kitten and you know, I Ilike to believe that I'm the cat
whisperer, because most of thetime I am.
So the cat has been hidingunder the kitten has been hiding
under the bed and she.
I went out, she came back and Icouldn't find her and then I
(45:34):
found her in the bathroom.
She was actually behind this,this shower curtain.
So I sat on the floor and Iopened up the shower curtain and
I saw her and without thinking,I reached out to pet her and
she like freaked out and ran,like ran up my arm, I got
scratched up, she jumped off myshoulder and I said, ok, that
was my fault, not the cat'sfault, that was my fault.
So like I didn't blame the catand I'm like, ok, now I got to
(45:58):
do some repair, repair work, butthat's what it's training us.
It's not training them Right,it's training the person.
Speaker 3 (46:08):
That's right.
Yeah, exactly that's what it'straining us.
It's not training them right.
Speaker 1 (46:11):
It's training the person, that's right.
Yeah, exactly that's what wetry to do, I so as a.
So I'd like to visit on alsosome of the consequences from a
medical perspective that thatzach and brie were speaking on,
especially when the concept ofum restricting the dog'sway.
So there are a certain numberof dogs that have a
predisposition to what's calleda collapsing trachea and that
(46:34):
means that their tracheal ringsand the cartilage in it are not
as sturdy or robust as a typicalanimal and they have incomplete
not all species this is thecase, but we have incomplete
tracheal rings.
This is why someone can bechoked to death by also the
(46:54):
injury to the trachea, as far ascrushing the trachea with that
action.
So any time with those types ofpressure and component although
usually most of these moreaggressive techniques are
utilized on larger breed dogsthat are not as predisposed to
this that is just fundamentallylike it can cause injuries to
(47:17):
the trachea, which is obviouslyessential for life, aka an
airway right.
The other component that Ithink is very important to
recall is that as you increasefear-based responses of animals,
what that makes it makes themedical care of those animals
much more challenging.
(47:43):
I work with a lot of dogs thathave trauma history.
I work with a lot ofchallenging behavior cases.
And number one it's amazingwhen people come to me and by
the end of the visit, if theirdog is literally just fearful,
that I can have a bond with thatdog by the end of the visit and
(48:06):
people who express theirappreciation for thank you for
you know working with my dog inthat way.
And I think it's important toremind veterinary professionals
that even like you, have tobuild in space to create a bond
with that animal and the processof working with that animal, to
work with that animal in a waythat makes each subsequent visit
(48:28):
easier.
Because it can go the other wayand if I cannot actually do a
physical exam on an animal, Ican't provide the care that that
animal needs for its best, mostoptimal health.
And so, foundationally, when Ihave a patient that I can't even
handle and I actually have touse sedation in order to do a
(48:52):
complete physical exam, thereare risks that I am taking by
putting that animal under a drugthat's going to modify its
cardiovascular system if Ihaven't even had the opportunity
to listen to that heart or knowif there's a murmur or
something else.
So also in that process of therelationship that you are
(49:13):
creating with your pet and yourcompanion animal, that by giving
the animal an opportunity toexplore the world with the
safety and comfort of your bondand that understanding just like
you know, I know that I'mbraver when I have people in my
life that I feel safe with andwe're doing something together
(49:34):
that is beyond my comfort zone.
It's literally the same thingfor these wonderful animals.
You have to work with them overtime, right, and sometimes it
takes us time to be comfortablewith a new technique.
So this is why I try and remindpeople because we are how
should I say also in like oursocial media world looking for
(49:54):
instant gratification andinstant things to change
instantly and a button to pushthat's going to make something
magically different, and that'sjust not how learning works.
Exactly as Brie was sayingearlier, it's not how learning
works.
Exactly as Brie was sayingearlier, it's not how learning
works, it's not how people work,it's not how animals work, that
we need to introduce thingsover time, in a stepwise way, to
(50:17):
allow a living being tofamiliarize itself with its
environment.
Speaker 2 (50:26):
I think I, yeah that's, that's what I had to say
so we have about maybe 10minutes, and I still and I did
look up somebody, because one ofthe things that erica and I are
going to do now is we're alsogoing to, uh, dedicate the last
couple minutes of the episode tosomebody that's been killed in
palestine so I found ajournalist I just wanted to
mention at the end.
(50:46):
So, in the late, the last 10minutes, bree, were there any
things that you think are reallyrelevant for our listeners to
know about, like how to changeit, what we can do about it?
Are there any animal activistgroups that are involved in
creating change that people canjoin?
Speaker 4 (51:06):
You can follow us.
Speaker 2 (51:09):
I already did so shameless but for the listeners
out there, you have a youtubestation and it's called a zach
george's dog training revolution.
Is that correct?
Speaker 3 (51:20):
yeah, our intersectionality content is
mostly yes oh, the mic go aheadour um.
What was I saying?
Speaker 4 (51:31):
intersectionality yeah, where we discuss issue
wait till it's green, see whenit turns green.
Speaker 2 (51:36):
Yeah that time it was on okay, um, so we discussed.
Speaker 3 (51:45):
We discuss intersectionality issues on
Instagram and Facebook, and moreso than we do on YouTube.
You can find us over there.
Just look up Zach George.
We're routinely talking aboutthat, but I think awareness is
all we're asking of the publicright now.
I mean, you can't changeanything until you're aware of
it and we notice that way thatwe treat dogs and other
problematic systems in society,like there's a strong
(52:07):
correlation there.
Speaker 4 (52:09):
A symptom that we should pay attention to.
Speaker 3 (52:10):
A symptom that we should pay attention to in order
to make people healthy again.
Speaker 4 (52:17):
Yeah, what do I want to say?
I think, okay, I think that themost helpful point for me to
remember when I'm thinking aboutanimal training is, instead of
asking how do I stop thisannoying behavior, if you just
(52:38):
ask, why is my dog doing thisannoying behavior?
Like, just change that veryfirst question and see where it
leads you from there, because Ithink that fundamental shift can
really take you very, very farin animal training and in the
end, you'll have a bettertrained dog.
Speaker 2 (52:56):
Which is comparable to parenting too.
It's the exact same thing.
If a child has an issue, maybeask why they have the issue,
versus punishing them for havingthe issue.
So it's the exact same thing,it is.
Speaker 1 (53:08):
Yeah, I want to invite people not only to follow
Zach and Bria in their work,also to look into cooperative
care as a model.
So there are some resourcesespecially for specifically
(53:29):
cooperative care is thediscussion of how to prepare
your pet for a long-termrelationship with veterinary
care.
Which is very important becausewe want that bond.
We are here foundationally andif you don't feel this way,
primarily as a veterinaryprofessional, you might need a
break.
You might have some burnout.
(53:50):
The primary purpose is instewardship and optimization of
the human-animal bond, toenhancing that, optimizing it,
enriching it in multipledimensions.
I think that is to aspire toand you should also seek to have
(54:15):
that type of relationship withthe animal care team in your
life.
And if your animal care teamdoesn't make you feel that way,
you can let them know and thenpotentially hopefully find
another location that will beable to better meet your needs.
I actually, matt.
I do have a story of aPalestinian young man that is
(54:39):
actually directly related tothis that I would like to share.
Speaker 2 (54:43):
Do you want to share that?
And then next time I'll sharethe one that I had.
Speaker 1 (54:46):
Yeah, I mean, I think we can see if there's space for
both, right, okay, sure, yeah,so also, I dropped the article
and a podcast in reflection onit into the chat so you can add
it to the show notes.
This particular story was inall of the heartbreak and
(55:10):
devastation that comes fromobserving millions of people and
countless animals and wildlifebe subjected to some of the most
advanced weaponry bombardmentin existence for two years.
This was one of the storiesthat took my breath away and
(55:36):
it's the story of Mohammed Bahar.
Mohammed Bahar was 24 years oldyoung man, palestinian man, in
Gaza, with Down syndrome.
He was murdered with an Israelipolice dog, mauled to death,
(56:03):
and it was recorded.
That recording exists.
There is an audio recording ofhis last words to this dog,
which emphasizes everythingwe've talked about.
My dear, that is enough, um, um.
(56:27):
As an autistic person who haswithin the cohort of my
community people who arenon-verbal and people who are
unable to communicate usingwords, of which you know, this
person had limitations on thatand how astutely he understood
(56:53):
that this animal, this dog thatwas killing him and attacking
him, was not to blame, to blame,and that he held that in the
words that he was saying and tothe type of human being that is
(57:15):
in able, in that moment,literally to say to their the,
the weapon of their death, andtheir pain in that moment my
dear, that is enough.
I, I have no words and thiswill be with me for the
remainder of my life.
And um, and the injustice of it.
(57:40):
Uh, and not only that, he wasnot found by his family until a
week later.
So, when we look at this story,when we understand the story of
how animals are used byviolence, these animals are
forced into the position ofbeing used to brutalize people,
(58:07):
and it is unconscionable.
It is unconscionable.
And the people that areinvolved in shipping animals
around the world for thispurpose, it is unconscionable.
I also included a podcast by anIsraeli activist who has a
conversation with anotherIsraeli activist whose sibling
(58:35):
also has Down syndrome, and theyreflect that to understand that
.
What if it was my child?
What if it was my sibling?
What if it was my child?
What if it was my sibling?
What if it was someone that Iloved deeply that was by
themselves burst in a pond by ananimal and usually these are
(59:01):
belgian malinois and germanshepherds um, that are imported
from outside of Israel, by theway, to be mauled to death, and
I don't like.
I have been bitten by animals, Ihave almost been bitten by dogs
(59:21):
.
I have people that I know in mycommunity who have been mauled
to death.
It is unacceptable for that tobe to happen as a weapon rather
than an after effect of someonetrying to provide care to an
animal that is not ready or iswounded or has that history like
(59:42):
I.
I'm glad to have at least thisplatform with which we can speak
about this and the support ofall of you to like share the
story, because it's been.
This was in July last year.
Speaker 4 (01:00:02):
Yeah, I remember that story when it happened it's
been a year Absolutely horrible,tragic.
Speaker 3 (01:00:06):
Yeah, yeah, I remember that story when it
happened.
It's absolutely horrible,tragic.
Yeah, it is, it's and that'sjust, you know, the one that
we're, that we're hearing about.
I mean, these, these thingshappen all the time and it's
been going on for centuries.
It's not normal or necessary,it's not restricted to Palestine
either.
Speaker 2 (01:00:24):
Right, Erica.
Thank you for sharing that.
I just want to make sure you'reokay.
Speaker 1 (01:00:30):
Yeah, I'm good, I let it out as it happens.
I don't hold it.
I share it yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:00:36):
Yeah, it's I.
Actually, when you first, whenyou first said you had a story,
I thought you were going to talkabout the person that was raped
by a dog in Israel, cause thatalso happened, which we can
certainly talk about at adifferent time.
It's just, there's no words forthat level of atrocity.
Yeah, I mean, it was reallypowerful, thank you.
(01:00:57):
Thank you for sharing that.
I think we'll all wait, becausepart of me also wants to honor
one person each episode, right,so that they that person has
that know as their kind of own.
Do you know what I mean?
Um, it's the least we could do.
I wish we could do more thanthat, but it's just.
It's again, there's no words.
(01:01:18):
This is the stuff that makes mespeechless and I I talk for a
living, but this is the stuffthat I'm like I don't know what
to say.
Speaker 4 (01:01:26):
You know, yeah, I really appreciate you sharing
Mohammed.
That story is awful and so hardto share, but important.
Speaker 3 (01:01:35):
Yeah, and I mean it circles back to the goal.
People have to be aware thatthis is happening, and that's
the only.
The only way they're going tobe aware is if we normalize
discussions and dissent aroundit.
Speaker 1 (01:01:46):
Yeah, and Zach, I do also want to express some deep
thanks because I have beensitting with this deep need for
the veterinary industry to talkabout this openly and you know
(01:02:11):
this is a conversation thatwe've been wanting to have for a
long time, so I'm super excitedthat we had it today.
And secondly, when you did yourlong form post specifically
about the violence of policedogs in like a, there have been
some maybe one or twopublications that have come out
academic articles but you werepart of, I think, three people
(01:02:36):
from the two from the animalbehavior world, another
colleague of ours so I'll dropboth posts into the show notes
to make sure that people can getaccess to it.
Both posts into the show notesto make sure that people can get
access to it.
Who are pushing forward thisquestion of why are dogs still
being exploited in this way?
(01:02:56):
Why are dogs being utilized asweapons of violence, to kill,
maim, disable, terrorize,control communities?
When the bond has so much moreto offer us life-saving things
to offer us, why are weutilizing it for death and
destruction?
So you helped be that publicspark, so that was like a
(01:03:24):
lifeline for me in processingthis.
So thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (01:03:27):
Yeah, I appreciate that, and I know Bree also.
I mean she worked on theresearch, the primary research,
on that video as well.
So thanks, yeah.
So I mean we're a team, butyeah.
Oh, yeah, that was a reallydifficult because we yeah, we
worked for a good couple monthson that one.
Speaker 4 (01:03:42):
Yeah, we took longer than we typically do for a few
reasons because we wanted to bereally comprehensive and just
make sure to make the best casewe could so that people who were
unfamiliar, who might onlywatch one video, at least they
could see it.
But it also was by far thehardest video we've ever made
and there was a lot of passingback and forth in the edit when
(01:04:02):
one of us hit capacity and wewere like, well, it's not
getting done unless you pick itup now because I'm done with
that.
Speaker 3 (01:04:09):
Yeah, it's very graphic footage.
Speaker 4 (01:04:11):
Yeah, yeah, so anyway , thank you for that, could you?
Speaker 2 (01:04:13):
um, is that something that we can share as well that
way?
Can you maybe email that to meand I can add it to the to the
show notes?
Thank you both so much fortaking time out of your schedule
to come and talk on the podcast.
I I really appreciate it, andErica, thank you, as always, for
setting that up so for thepeople who are listening.
I would also like to end with anote that we have talked about
(01:04:34):
some heavy stuff, which we havebeen doing a lot, so make sure
that you do some self-care everyday to make sure that you don't
burn yourself out.
So thank you again forlistening and we'll see you
again soon.
Hello everybody, and thank youagain for listening.
(01:05:10):
This is just a reminder that nopart of this podcast can be
duplicated or copied withoutwritten consent from either
myself or Wendy.
Thank you again.
This podcast is not intended to serve as therapeutic
advice or to replace anyprofessional treatment.
These opinions belong to us anddo not reflect any company or
agency.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Hello everybody and welcome back to another episode
of the United States of PTSD.
I have Erica back with me todayand we have two guest speakers,
zach and Brie.
If you would like to introduceyourselves, that would be
fantastic.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
Yeah, I'm Zach George .
I make dog training videos.
We do advocacy work.
We focus on intersectionalityand trying to make the animal
care profession a better place.
Bree is my partner andco-producer and the brains
behind everything.
Speaker 4 (00:54):
Yep, yeah, that's true.
I've been working with Zach for, I want to say, 14 years, now a
long time.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
I do want to mention that these two amazing human
beings are people that I work incommunity with in the animal
care world as far as thisconcept of decolonial work in
general, especially around thehuman-animal bond.
And so Zach was one of thepeople who spearheaded the
(01:23):
public discourse andconversation within social media
about the weaponization of thepeople who spearheaded the
public discourse andconversation within social media
about the weaponization of thehuman-animal bond and the
concept of policing and policedogs, and that was part of our
common ground conversation today.
As far as to talk about howanimal training, animal training
(01:43):
world, which we'll see if weget into this.
But there's a whole lot ofstuff happening there that you
two could probably talk about ifyou would like, about this
concept of what is the nature ofthe relationship between people
and animals and how do weutilize animals in society with
that relationship ethically,especially because there's just
(02:04):
such a longstanding history ofexploitation of animals by
people.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Thank you, erica, if I could add one piece of that
too, because I know people loveto hear the creation of things
right, like how something cameabout.
So, zach, if you could also add, or Brie, how you came to do
this in the first place, likewhat led up to the work that you
do as part of what Erica isalso talking about.
Speaker 4 (02:28):
I'll go because I think my answer might be shorter
.
I don't know, but for me it'skind of one and the same, as far
as well, when you were talkingabout the weaponization of the
bond and all of that somethingpeople don't always think about.
When they think about the issueof police dogs, for example,
they think are those dogstrained in a kind way or not?
(02:51):
And they sort of stop there andthe answer, unfortunately, is
usually not, almost always not.
But in addition to that, evenif those dogs are trained kindly
, the entire concept of carceralpolicing is exactly the same
problem as the question they'reasking when they're saying are
those dogs trained kindly?
(03:11):
If you think that you shouldn'tpunish dogs, for me it follows
punishment doesn't really workfor people either.
So it's just sort of been aslow and then fast snowball
effect of decolonial learningfor me.
Like once I started reallydigging into my thoughts on dog
training, it was a surprise.
I really thought I was going tojust learn how to clicker train
(03:32):
a dog and all of a sudden I'mlike the entire world has
changed for me.
My worldview has totallyshifted.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Yeah, it's interesting that you say that.
As a person who is Eric, I knowyou're a vet and both of you
have worked largely with animalsand, having only the experience
of pets, you know as you cansee my cat right there I would
have never, it would have never,crossed my mind to think about
how police dogs are traineduntil you said that I would
(04:00):
think more about how the dangersthey were and afterwards, or
how they are, they're exploitedor how they're used afterwards,
I never would have thought aboutthe training and so you just
said that, so I'm not sureeverybody would be aware of that
.
Speaker 4 (04:10):
Yeah, that's a good point.
I've been kind of deep in thedog training space about it now
and I find, at least withinanimal training, people often
stop with that question.
But you're right, for thegeneral public I don't know what
they ask.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Yeah is it?
Are the dogs happy when they gohome?
I'm not sure.
I would never even think aboutthat stuff, so I'm really glad
that you brought that up.
What and what was it that ledyou to start that work?
Like, what did you have apassion about working with
animals before that?
Like, how did you get to thispoint?
Speaker 3 (04:40):
Yeah, I've been.
I've been training Back started.
Speaker 4 (04:42):
It is the answer.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
I've been training dogs about this approximate.
I guess this is my 20th year inthe dog training field and I've
always been involved.
But you know I started from dogsports.
I, you know, performed in stuntdog shows.
I eventually evolved my careerinto showing people at home how
to train their dogs through, youknow, a couple of TV shows that
I've had, but my YouTubechannel is, you know, what I'm
(05:10):
most proud of there.
That's, you know, I thinkreally helps spread the word
about modern dog training.
But you can't help but noticeall the different ways that
people train dogs and I'vealways been really passionate
about trying to bring progressto this field, which I'm
passionate about, and rule outpain and fear when we're
teaching dogs right.
Believe it or not, it's quitecommon in the professional dog
training sector for people touse intentional pain and fear,
(05:33):
and that really applies to a lotof police dog training.
And even if it didn't, even ifthey are trained with positive
methods, like Bree was saying,they are still contributing to
upholding problematic systems insociety, right.
Speaker 4 (05:49):
We understand a carceral response is not
reformative, right, and sothat's important to us in animal
care, in our daily work,because part of our whole, I
guess, activist message I wantto put activist in quotes
because I feel like it's wildthat this is a question but part
(06:10):
of our whole message is thatthat's not helping your dog.
You know, we understand fromwhat we know about learning with
people that punishing themisn't going to help them change
their behavior in a way that'sgood for their welfare or their
long-term life, and the same istrue with dogs and any animal.
Them change their behavior in away that's good for their
welfare or their long-term life,and the same is true with dogs
and any animal.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
And so, yes, I wanted to say, as we were untangling
why people train dogs with thesemethods you can't ignore the
way that law enforcement andmilitary dogs are trained and
what the origins are there andwhy they came about in the first
place.
And guess what?
It's to suppress minoritizedcommunities around the world.
(06:48):
I mean, that's really what's atthe heart of it, and so that's
why we couldn't help but noticethat, and we noticed there's a
lot of mixed messaging in thedog training community, Like a
lot of the conversation has beenwell, as long as they're
training them with modernmethods, it should be okay.
And so we think that is not theright direction because it
exploits dogs.
And of course, we would have togo over a lot here to explain
(07:10):
why it's problematic, because Iknow a lot of people hear this
and they think well, don't weneed police dogs?
Aren't they heroes?
You know this is how they'represented in modern media and
things like that.
There's a lot of backgroundthere.
I don't know how you want totackle that.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
It actually 100% makes sense now that you've
described it, because I can seehow that would happen Again.
It's just something I don'tthink I would have thought about
until somebody said it.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
So what I would like to suggest is like a three-step
process.
Number one I would love it ifthe two of you and Matt, if you
would like to contribute this toexpand a little bit on this
concept of the carceral systemand reformative systems, because
I do think that that isspecific language that maybe not
(07:58):
everyone listening may have haddeep experience with,
especially from the concept ofliberatory framework.
So that's step one.
Step two is this conversationabout these systems that are
problematic, in which militaryand police dogs, or this concept
(08:21):
of control in the human-animalbond when it comes to dogs and
potentially other militaryanimals, we could talk about,
for example, mounted policehorses and horses being utilized
to do what they callquote-unquote crowd control,
which actually involvestrampling people with horses,
which is horrifically violentand very damaging.
(08:44):
And then, lastly, in thatcounterpoint of creating a
vision for people about what thehuman-animal bond can do, why
do we need to even engage inthese systems of violence when
the human-animal bond has suchwonderful things that we can
emphasize?
So, search and rescue, serviceanimals, the animals as utility
(09:06):
for the human medical well-beingright, and those kinds of
things.
So that's what I'm going to putforward, that's the veterinary
anti-oppressionist talking.
What do you?
Speaker 2 (09:17):
think obviously between the carceral system and
the use of punishment withpeople.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
And what the two of you are, the three of you are
also talking about, and itdoesn't work.
I mean, I work a lot withaddiction.
That's been, that's mybackground and addiction is a
great example of this in termsof how we treat it.
We call it a disease, but wetreat it as a moral issue, and
that is from top to bottom.
So we do it in the court system.
We that is from top to bottom.
So we do it in the court system, we do it in the prison system,
(09:44):
we do it in the treatmentsystem, while at the same time,
we're saying it's a disease, butwe treat it in an incredibly
punitive way.
I know when I first started atthe field, they did things like
they would shave people's headsin treatment and you would have
to, like, earn a pencil or earna pen to earn your rights.
At the same time, they'recalling it a disease.
So we see that all over theplace.
(10:06):
Our entire prison system ismeant to be a revolving door, so
I see the parallel between thatand what you're talking about
with animal welfare as well.
Speaker 4 (10:15):
Yeah, it reminds me of, if you think about,
basically any of the worstproblems a dog could have.
So if a dog is biting people orI mean, that's usually the
worst, but there's, you knowthere's many like or being
destructive at home, I guesswould be another one fearful of
strangers.
Almost all of those bad dogs,those dogs that are like lunging
(10:39):
and barking on a walk, doingthings that people really don't
want them to do, are doing thatbecause they're afraid or their
welfare is compromised, notalways through the fault of the
person.
The dog could have a medicalissue or the environment's just
not right for them, but none ofthose things are the dog's fault
(10:59):
, and so punishing those fearfulbehaviors is just egregious to
me.
And yeah, you're right, it'sreally, really similar in a lot
of ways to a lot of human issuesthat we think about.
So, yeah, that's what I alwayscome back to.
It just became unavoidable tome.
I mean I did enter this thoughtprocess thinking shouldn't
police dogs be positivelytrained, and it took, I mean it
(11:21):
was like a week and a half of uslearning about it, and then we
were like, wait, what did thosepeople do?
Why are the dogs biting them?
They don't have due processLike what, how, what right do we
have to send an animal whodoesn't deserve to be in that
situation after a person who,first of all, shouldn't be
criminalized regardless becausewe know that it's not
(11:42):
reformative?
Second of all, they don't evenhaven't even been given their
rights of like due process and ajury and stuff.
So it yeah, it just is.
It becomes a natural conclusionfor me, and the parallels just
keep being unignorable.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
I thought of another one, and I don't know if the two
of you or Erica, you may evenknow the answer to this.
I saw a study a while ago thatI think it was, in 16 or 15
states in the United States it'sillegal to remove a puppy from
a dog before the age of eightweeks old because of how much
damage it does to the puppy.
However, we have no problemremoving children from people at
(12:23):
birth, even though there isample studies and evidence that
would suggest, if not prove,that it damages people.
Right.
So there is a lot of, and myunderstanding and correct me if
I'm wrong with this is thatchild welfare rights also came
out of animal welfare rights.
Is that correct?
Speaker 4 (12:45):
I'm not sure which came first.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
I mean, I know the parallels I thought for some
reason I thought animal welfareactually came first.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
I do.
I do actually think that thatis the case.
Let me we'll cross check it.
But there are many instanceswhere the conditions of animals
are thought about more than theconditions of the marginalized
identity people that are beingtargeted or existing in parallel
(13:17):
space.
And wow, we could go into deep,deep discussion.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
Yes, we could.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Gaza and Palestine.
That could actually probably inits own right be a separate
episode, and I also appreciatethat reflection of like.
Yes, there are, like when wenavigate in veterinary medicine,
we call them bottle babies, andit's not just dogs, it's also
cats, right, and other animalsthat we interact with that don't
have the full experience or thenatural experience of that
(13:47):
period of maternal bonding, or Ishould say like about that,
like birth bonding.
That happens.
You know, we could.
I mean, I'll just put this inhere, we're not going to talk
about this too much, but this isa side quest.
Uh, you know, we can thinkabout the dairy industry in this
right.
Um, it's, it's also in foodsystems.
What I'd like to circle back to, because I think that there was
(14:12):
this natural concept of like,why we think about this fact of
absence of due process in thatwe are normalizing the fact that
someone who's literally justbeing chased by the cops you
know that there is a decisionmade that is judge, jury and
like execution of harm, theamount of trauma and physical
mauling.
(14:32):
Like I had veterinarians andother veterinary professionals,
we put ourselves at risk tobeing mauled intentionally with
tools available.
We understand that's anexpectation of that and there
have been veterinaryprofessionals killed by our, the
patients that we work withRight, and what I just want to
emphasize, and because I feellike Zach had something to say,
(14:55):
um to add to this in the contextof some and also in his work,
as far as what he's writtenabout it, about the fact that
sometimes these dogs not onlyare they attacking and
physically harming and maulingand sometimes disabling people
without any due process, thatthere are bystanders at times
(15:16):
that are impacted by this, andI'm passing it off to Zach
because this is something that-.
Speaker 3 (15:20):
Well, yeah, even a lot of I'm sorry, yeah, even a
lot of former police officers orpeople you know.
They they've talked about howit scarred them as well when
they've reflected on it andthey've experienced PTSD as well
from a lot of these.
These incidents only scratchingthe surface.
(15:41):
So your Fourth Amendment ispotentially violated by police
dogs.
That's an unreasonable seizure.
Your Eighth Amendment cruel andunusual punishment.
The Fifth and FourteenthAmendments the arbitrary use,
violating due process rights,which we talked about.
Potentially even the FirstAmendment when they use them at
protests to intimidateprotesters.
So these dogs are trampling allover constitutional rights.
(16:05):
Now, I realize the Constitutionneeds work, but if that's going
to be the law of the land rightnow, we can at least start by
honoring those basic fundamentalrights that are trampled on by
the practice of police dogs.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
Wow, zach, thank you for pointing that out, because
that's that's like huge.
But is it really the dogs thatare doing it or is it the
trainers that trained the dogsthat are doing it?
Speaker 4 (16:30):
it is, yeah, I noticed that you said that and I
was like he knows, it's not thedogs that are doing it.
Speaker 3 (16:34):
Did I misspeak there?
I was surprised by that.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
Thank you for clearing that up yeah, this is a
perfect example of like how wework together.
Oh my god, yeah so we'relearning something here, and
that I believe that themicrophones are like cutting off
based off of whose microphoneis the loudest.
That might be a feature of ofzoom, um, but yeah, so I'm gonna
let you finish your sentence.
(16:58):
There's that to make sure yourmicrophone picks it up.
What was the point?
Speaker 3 (17:01):
yeah, people are exploiting dogs right the the
fact that you know, very oftenyou'll see belgian malinois, for
example, or german shepherddogs used in in, uh, police
apprehension work.
They're exploiting how eager andhow intelligent and how curious
these animals are.
They're really exploiting thebest of these animals to do the
(17:24):
worst work in humanity right now, and that's what's so twisted
about it.
I mean, we've normalized thisbecause we've all grown up with
police dogs, like we're taughtthat they're heroes, we're
taught that they you know theyget the bad guys and there's not
really a lot of evidence thatthey're necessary at all, no
strong evidence that I'm awareof that they.
I'm not aware of any evidencethat they decrease crime.
(17:46):
They certainly don'tde-escalate situations and I
think most reasonable peopleshould agree that de-escalatory
practices are what we should beaiming for as well.
I mean the very root ofweaponizing dogs for practical
purposes for this conversationgoes back to the 1500s, when we
weaponized them against thenatives of north america uh,
(18:10):
what we call north america soand then we use them to hunt
down enslaved human beings,primarily africans, right and in
the united states, and wecontinue to use them as a tool
of oppression and the civilrights movement and to this day,
most people just think they'renormal, but they actually are
(18:31):
foundationally racist.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
I can think of another one that's less popular,
if you think back to theconnection between cats and
women historically, where theywould associate cats with
witchcraft and women and theywould, you know, use that as a
as a weapon against successfulwomen or women who were poor, or
women who, whatever I mean,they would just murder them.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
they would murder the cats, and that was another bond
that would also be broken it'sa really good point, yeah, and
I'll say this as a person whoworks very closely with cats.
So, like cats and certain dogsright, there are plenty of dogs
(19:16):
that have this particular traitof a certain amount of autonomy
and desire for trust building,right.
So a lot of the times with catsthat you have to do what's
called not all, but a higherpercentage of them, what I would
call invitation-basedcollaboration.
(19:37):
So a cat that has thisinclination and there are some
cats that are very amenable hasthis inclination, and there are
some cats that are very amenablethat a cat needs to know you or
be familiar enough with youbefore a cat allows certain
things to happen.
And there's a certain amount oftime that that takes.
And when you think about that inthe concept of relational
control, right, perhaps this iswhy historically sometimes
(20:02):
there's been a bond betweenindependent fem-bodied people
and felines, right Of thisconcept of where does the
control lie?
And I think that Zach and Briehave has, historically, other
interesting content about thisconcept of control, and there
(20:23):
are other veterinarians andcontent creators who also talked
about like controlled breeding,as well as what we call the
(20:49):
menageries of the rich who wouldpopulate as a status symbol,
populate their what do they callthem conservatory?
Or populate the precursors tozoos, basically with exotic
species that they would bring infrom other places, and
sometimes it would literallyjust be death, like it's just a
(21:11):
cycle of death, like they bringthese animals in to showcase
them without understanding theircare and would basically be
sentencing them to death out ofneglect and just exploitation.
So this exploitation of natureand planet and animals in it,
which is basically where I cameto veterinary medicine, is this
(21:36):
desire of human beings to wantto control things rather than
coexist with things, to controlthings rather than coexist with
things, to exert dominance overthings rather than to be in
community connection with, and Iwould say with my practice in
medicine and the wonderfulpeople that I get to meet, like
Zach and Bree and other peoplein our community that have this
(21:59):
determination to demonstrate toother people the type of
equitable, reciprocalrelationships that people can
have with animals and theirenvironment.
And we don't have the need toutilize this coercive control or
punitive control to have anabundantly productive
(22:22):
relationship with animals andenvironment.
And I'm off my soapbox.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
Okay, I want to go back to just one thing that I
was talking about, erica, beforeyou had mentioned that, and
then I want to go to Zach andBree, if you could talk about,
maybe, some of the techniquesthat are used, so that the
listeners will understand whatthat abuse looks like.
But to go back to what I wassaying about cats and women,
because we don't have to go downthis rabbit hole today, but
religion has also been used as away to vilify the connection
(22:50):
between people and animals, andparticularly with cats.
I don't know if you're familiarwith this, but the concept of
Friday the 13th being thisunholy, superstitious day and
black cats actually comesdirectly from the oppression of
women in history, because Freya,the goddess of love and beauty
and battle in Scandinaviancountries, is actually where the
word Friday comes from, andFreya was represented by cats,
(23:15):
particularly black cats, and shewas often depicted in a chariot
being pulled by cats, and herworshipers were one of the last
bastions of goddess paganworship that Christianity could
not get rid of.
So what they did was theyvilified her, they vilified her
priestesses, they vilified cats,they vilified everything about
it, because her worship wouldoften consist of 13 priestesses.
(23:40):
So they took Friday the 13th,which is a direct correlation
between goddess worship andFreya, and linked the cat to it
because that's what she wasdepicted as, and they used that
as a way to oppress women, killwomen, kill cats, do all of that
stuff examples of thathappening historically with
(24:01):
religion.
But I did want to throw thatout there.
And then if, zach and Brie, ifyou could talk about the
techniques that are used totrain these dogs that might be
helpful as well.
Speaker 4 (24:19):
Well, I'll mostly let Zach talk about the techniques,
but I wanted to start just bysaying did you know?
This is an anecdotal quotebased on my years of experience
in the dog training field, butit is not an official number
from any source.
But did you know that a largepercentage I'm going to say
(24:40):
probably about 50%, but I'll letZach guess of dog trainers in
America truly believe that dogsdon't have the ability to give
consent and they like talk aboutit as a talking point of their
training?
And I just the first time Iheard that my jaw was on the
(25:03):
floor for a week and a half,Like I was, like we have so much
work to do.
But anyway, I'll let Zach talkabout the techniques.
But the mindset is there.
It's a problem.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
Those are probably the same people who believe
their partners don't needconsent either.
I would just imagine.
Speaker 3 (25:17):
I mean, there you go, see, you're onto something here
, it's true.
I mean there are commonalitiesbetween, and characteristics
between, domestic violence andthe treatment of animals and
dogs, and that's something we'vetalked about a lot on my social
media, one of the morecontroversial things that we
talk about there, but it's, it'svery true.
Which I think is exciting welost, so yeah, the techniques
(25:42):
like okay, this mic, you can'thear me oh no, I see it green
again.
Yeah, something happened, that'sweird okay, um it's within zoom
, but, yeah, keep letting usknow you know, like kind of
tying it back to what we'retalking about with police dogs.
One of the reasons thatoutdated methods in dog training
(26:02):
persist, where we use painthings like shot collars or
prong collars being jerkedpretty firmly and abruptly One
of the reasons that we see thecontinued use of that is because
people look to what theyperceive, as you know, those
must be well-trained dogs, whenin fact these dogs are often
just exploited.
(26:23):
They're not usually the besttrained dogs in reality.
Speaker 4 (26:27):
Yeah, they're frequently out of control.
I don't encourage anyone to dothis, but if you look on YouTube
at police dog attacks, you willfind the majority of them end
with the officer having tophysically remove the dog they
don't like.
Call off the people.
Speaker 3 (26:42):
Right yeah they have a hard time getting them, yeah
um, but in terms of techniquesgo so like what I'm trying to
get at it here is there aredecades and decades centuries
actually of colonial cultureprioritizing taking behaviors
from dogs, making them dosomething, rather than than
(27:03):
motivating the dog to want to dosomething or appealing to their
intrinsic motivation of whatthey really value and to let
them actually be dogs.
And so the techniques that weuse and that we promote to the
public are really about cateringto the individual dog and
understanding the individual dogin front of you and what you
can do to make them feel safeand comfortable and confident.
(27:26):
First and foremost, we don'tbypass those things and then we
earn behaviors from them ifthey're willing to give them to
us, and it's up to us tomotivate those dogs to want to
do things.
But really fundamentally, theway we promote raising a dog is
in the same way that we thinkyou would ethically raise a
(27:47):
young child, right?
I mean, you wouldn't hit them,you wouldn't spank them, you
would try and be patient withthem and explain to them when
they're confused.
And there are ways to do thatwith dogs.
I mean dogs are veryintelligent animals, they're
mammals.
Speaker 4 (27:59):
All mammals are very intelligent, best I can tell,
although, yeah, I feel like itall in at least the everyday dog
training that we're usuallypresented with.
It all comes down to whether youare suppressing a behavior that
you don't want or whetheryou're actually motivating your
(28:20):
dog to change behavior.
And there's a lot of debatewithin the dog training
community about whether it'sever appropriate to suppress a
behavior, whether that's all youreally should do or whether you
should only motivate them,which is the side that Zach and
I fall on.
But yeah, it's just.
You know, when you look at adog that's doing those
(28:41):
problematic things like we weretalking about before biting or
lunging on a walk, if you justsuppress that symptom of fear,
you're not fixing the fear, andso the problem the dog might not
growl at strangers anymore, butthey might just go straight to
biting them instead, becauseyou've suppressed their symptoms
but you haven't actuallyaddressed the problem.
(29:04):
So it's bad for the dogs, butit's really bad for everyone.
It's just a shame.
The dog training world is a bigshame in a lot of ways, and so
we're trying to help hopefullychange it.
Did you want to hear about thebad methods or only the good
ones?
Speaker 2 (29:18):
Well, I think it's important that people know the
bad I mean in in theory.
I don't want to know, becauseignorance, you know what I mean,
but like we need to know, likethat's how we, that's how we are
going to change it, so tell usabout it yeah, and that's I mean
.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
These.
These harsh methods we'retalking about are very
widespread in dog trainingbecause it's an unregulated
field.
You don't need any license tobe a dog trainer.
No certification is required.
Anybody can wake up.
Literally anybody can wake upand be a dog trainer.
No certification is required.
Anybody can wake up.
Literally anybody can wake upand be a dog trainer, even if
they've never you know done thefirst bit of research.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
So how does that work in terms of like insurance?
So for, like, if you're a dogtrainer, then something happens.
Well, first of all do you haveto have insurance.
Speaker 3 (29:57):
I don't.
I mean you have to haveinsurance.
It's a good idea to haveinsurance.
I don't know if there's a lawrequiring it, but if you have
business, you know you shouldhave basic insurance in place
and stuff like that.
But, um, wow, but yeah, yeah,there's.
So there's no requirements, soyou get everything like you
would expect, Right, and so mostdog trainers are literally
unqualified to be doing whatthey're doing, and so that's the
(30:18):
unfortunate thing.
So it's a it's a consumerhealth and safety issue, because
the consumer really doesn'tnecessarily, they're not
guaranteed that they're going toget a quality dog trainer, Even
if a dog trainer has acertification.
There are certifying bodies outthere right now that still will
(30:39):
give a dog trainer credentials,even if that dog trainer is
going to use choke and prongcollars.
You know Bree mentioned amoment ago that it's a big
debate in the dog trainingcommunity, but where it is not a
big debate is in the veterinarybehavior community, which is
these are the people on earthwho are tasked with
(30:59):
understanding how trainingmethods, among other things, of
course, affect mental andphysical health more than any
other credentialed body on Earth.
Well, also based on scientificevidence right.
Speaker 4 (31:12):
Like without, because we don't want to hero worship
anyone either.
Like, as amazing as veterinarybehaviorists are, the real
reason they're amazing is justbecause they believe science,
they look at evidence and theytrust it and they don't say, nah
, I grew up pinching my dog'sbutt to get him to sit, or
(31:34):
whatever, like I don't care, myway works, so I'm not going to
do that better thing.
Speaker 3 (31:38):
Well, in our advocacy efforts it's always worth
mentioning here are neverdirected at really the general
public.
They're more directed atprofessionals who accept money
to then traumatize dogsessentially.
I mean that's often whathappens.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
I appreciate you both so much and I really I very
much appreciate this kickoff asfar as the veterinary behavior
world, which kind of segues intoone of the pioneers of the
veterinary behavior world, drSophia Yin, who committed
suicide and was the reason whyNot One More Vet was formed, and
(32:20):
so she was an Asian-Americanveterinarian working in san
francisco and she pioneered thefear-free component of
veterinary medicine, which isincredibly new, right and also
as far as a formalized field.
I think that there are probablythere people I view it from the
(32:44):
perspective as an AsianAmerican veterinarian with deep
roots in like Buddhist andTaoist culture that I have
always been practicing fear-freemethodologies, just like in
many indigenous cultures aroundthe world have practiced um,
fear-free, um processes, um andengaging in like animal kinship
(33:09):
and animal relationship for,like you know, thousands of
years.
So, first of all, we need tolike normalize the fact that
these modern bodies and namesand things were, are like
literally putting modern nameson things that are as old as the
relationship, as the human andanimal bond, right in human
history, um, but I I wanted tokind of bring that up because
(33:33):
absolutely zach is right thatlike veterinary behaviorists are
not having this conversationand I think that's because at
times veterinary behavioriststheir relationship begins and
start at the clinic door, andand also we rely because we have
options, pharmaceutical options, that we can dispense.
(33:55):
That that is the other reasonwhy veterinary behaviorists have
such great success, oftenbecause we also can and I am not
a formalized behaviorist right.
I often because we also can andI am not a formalized
behaviorist right.
There are whole trainingprocesses or residency programs
that have been established as amethodology of how should I say
like standards, there's moreregulatory bodies observing what
(34:19):
veterinary behaviorists aredoing, and that there are
additional tools that I wishmore veterinarians would work
with behaviorists and dogtrainers that they have long
established relationships with.
So that's something that I doregularly with this community
that Zach and Bray and I areconnected to, and I would
(34:40):
encourage veterinarypractitioners who don't have
training in animal behavior,formalized training in animal
behavior, to ensure that you'renot just handing out cards of
behaviorists or not just sayingyo just work with a behaviorist,
I guess I'll look around.
(35:01):
Right?
You have to do some qualitycontrol in who you are
recommending to work with theanimals that are under your care
.
Sometimes it takes a littlewhile, but do your due diligence
, make sure that you understandnot only the qualifications of
your animal behaviors, whetheror not they are in alignment
(35:22):
with fear-free techniques,whether or not they are in
alignment with fear-freetechniques, um, but also in the
context of, are thosebehaviorists qualified and ready
to work with very traumatizedanimals?
That's the other thing, becausethat needs to be happen to keep
both the trainer, the animaland the animal caretaker, you
(35:42):
know, or you know, companion,you know, companion animal
person, like all collectivelysafest as possible.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
So if we could circle back to the behavior stuff,
only because we we still haven'tgotten there.
We I know it's come up a coupleof times when we keep getting
sidetracked.
So what is that?
Can you give, give an exampleof why?
When erica was saying it'simportant to to vet these people
, um, what are they risking interms of not vetting the people?
(36:09):
So what does that behavior looklike?
What do the methods look likeif they're abusing these dogs?
Speaker 3 (36:15):
yeah, so if somebody is, uh, using outdated methods
you're talking about, what arethe side effects that they can
expect?
Speaker 2 (36:23):
no, what are, what are those methods?
What are they doing to thosedogs?
Speaker 3 (36:28):
Okay, you have something to say here before I
go.
Go ahead.
Speaker 4 (36:31):
Yeah, I can list the methods really quick, because I
was thinking about that earlier.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
Please.
Speaker 4 (36:36):
So some highlights, unfortunately, some bullet
points of common things thatpeople do with their dogs are,
of course, the prong collars,which are used very specifically
by being kept really high onthe neck and with a sharp,
straight upward pop of thecollar.
And so you'll hear people say aprong collar used properly very
(36:58):
often because proponents ofthem will see them like lower on
dogs'' necks etc and be likethat's not proper.
That's why the dog doesn't likeit, as if a dog loves it when
it's up real tight.
There's shot callers right,that's probably one of the most
common ones and a lot of peoplethink that is the answer to
(37:19):
their dog being off leash, whichI personally find terrifying.
Because can you imagine if youwere fearful and then, out of
the blue, in a way you can'tpredict, you got painful shocks
to your neck, while the thingyou're afraid of is in your face
?
I just feel like there are somany unwanted side effects that
(37:39):
really scare me that come withshock collars.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
Would you say that that's also true of those
electric fences that they have?
Speaker 4 (37:45):
Yeah, yes, In fact I read I'll have to look for the
study and try to send it to youand it was kind of old, to be
clear, but I read a study that'sprobably at least 10 years old
that said that the bark collars,which is another version,
there's the electric undergroundfences, the shock collars you
can just version.
There's the electricunderground fences, the shock
(38:05):
collars, you can just push abutton and do it at will, and
then there are all.
Speaker 2 (38:11):
Oh, you went out again.
Speaker 4 (38:12):
Also collars that dogs can Ah, I'm back.
One, two, three, am I back?
Yeah, yeah, okay.
There are shock collars peoplecan hold and push a button at
will, and then there are alsocollars that dogs can wear that
will just automatically shockthem when it senses a bark to
keep them silent.
And I read a paper that saidthose compromised welfare the
(38:35):
most the bark collars, becauseof all the different
unpredictable ways the collarcan respond to other sounds in
the environment If the dog isafraid and like trying to
vocalize, et cetera.
The other common technique thatI thought of immediately is
something that this is literallyin in, I don't want to say
(38:56):
textbooks, but this is an actualdescriptive term that some dog
trainers think is legitimate.
We do not.
It's called hanging andhelicoptering, which is what
they think you should do to adog who is basically like really
freaking out at the end of aleash, and so you just sort of
literally lift them by the neckso that their front feet are not
(39:17):
on the ground anymore, and sothey, you like, constrict their
airway until, I guess, they calmdown.
Some dogs get very physicallyhurt by this, but unfortunately,
the only way that you could,the only way that someone's
going to get in trouble atrainer, et cetera for doing
this to your dog is, if youwitness it, bring them to the
(39:38):
vet.
Get the vet to write a reportof the injury, bring that to the
police things that most peopledon't do because they literally
see their dog's behaviorsuppressed and they think that
worked because my dog is quietnow.
It's really unfortunate.
That's my least favorite.
Speaker 3 (39:53):
Yeah, so fear, anxiety, increased aggression,
mistrust are some of the topside effects of Zach you cut out
again Using these methods.
Sorry, okay, I'm so sorry aboutthat.
Y'all, it's a new mic.
I appreciate your patience onthat.
(40:14):
Maybe it's your cord.
So fear, anxiety, mistrustbetween a person and a dog and
aggression are some of the mostcommon side effects from using
these methods.
So while you suppress behavior,you're now creating other
issues, pretty fundamental stuff.
I mean.
We know, if we treat a kid likethis, those are going, they're
going to have issues, and thoseissues are preventable.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
Same type of deal.
This may not, this may not befair for me to say, but you know
, I like I also want to blamethe dog owner.
Right?
I mean, I am not, I've notreally owned dogs myself, but I
had dogs growing up with my, myparents.
And if somebody told me, as acat owner, that if I shocked my
cat or if I hung them at the endof a leash, or if I put them,
(41:00):
if I put these spiked things ontheir neck, that their behavior
would go away, then I shouldn'town a cat, I mean, maybe that's
not fair to say.
Speaker 3 (41:10):
Well, I mean, it's like I try not to come down on
everyday people who fall victimto this.
This is baked in.
This is why we're doing thework here, right?
Because this is baked intocolonial culture, this idea that
we suppress behavior that wewant.
So for many people they'reraised with it being very
normalized.
Now, yes, I agree thataccountability is necessary and
(41:30):
again, where I choose to focusmy efforts are with
professionals who are tellingthese everyday people to use
these methods.
Speaker 2 (41:36):
You know I try not to oh no, I know I, I know I hear
you're not, but I'm going toBecause it just.
You know, we were talkingyesterday, Eric, about just
critical thinking, and there's alack of critical thinking.
If you do not, if you thinkelectrocuting something is a
good idea, you should probably Idon't know check your moral
(41:58):
compass and try again.
Speaker 3 (42:01):
Yeah, I agree with you.
Yeah, and the laws of learningand the side effects we talked
about, I mean you know as well,I mean better than I do those
are the laws of learning applyto all animals.
We haven't found an exceptionto that so far when we've
checked.
Speaker 2 (42:15):
That's so disturbing.
Thank you for sharing that.
I just saw a video the otherday, I think it was, of a dog
groomer that was caught on avideo cam of smashing the dog
into the table a couple of timesto like control its behavior so
that they could then groom thedog I'm.
If that were my dog, theyprobably would never find that
person.
I'm just going to say that.
Speaker 4 (42:37):
Well, there's.
There's another element to thisthat I like to bring up when
I'm doing the critical thinkingtoo, which is that we so imagine
.
You're a person Right and, andyou have.
Speaker 2 (42:54):
Wait, wait, we're not .
Speaker 4 (42:59):
Just like, just just for a moment.
Imagine you're a person and youhave a dog who is maybe two
thirds as big as you are andthey're really excited to see
you, but they're jumping on youand they have these claws and
they're like scratching and theycould truly break your skin,
like they could knock you downand hurt you.
(43:19):
If you stop that behavior, youjust rewarded yourself right
From.
What we know about laws oflearning is that if something
aversive, something negative ishappening to me and it stops,
I'm more likely to do again thebehavior that made that aversive
(43:42):
thing stop, and so I think it'sreally important for animal
trainers to remember that we cantrain ourselves if we're not
careful, that it can berewarding.
Speaker 2 (43:58):
Oh, you cut out again , I'm so sorry To punish a dog.
That's all right.
You said it could be rewarding.
And then?
Speaker 4 (44:03):
you that it could be rewarding to punish a dog
because, like, if your dog isbarking all day and you stick a
shock collar on them and theydon't bark anymore, from your
perspective your life is better.
And so if you're notconsidering the world Up from
(44:27):
the other animals, are we back?
Yeah, yeah.
The point is, punishment isreinforcing to the punisher, and
I believe my last example I wasgiving is that if you, if your
dog is barking all day and youstick a shock collar on them,
then you have rewarded yourselfbecause the barking stops on
(44:48):
them than you have rewardedyourself because the barking
stops.
And so we just have to rememberboth, both sides of the
equation, like both animals thatare being trained within the
situation that we're approaching, so that we don't accidentally
reinforce ourselves but harm theother animal right and when you
have the compass or when youhave the uh, welfare of the
(45:08):
learner, first and foremost, ithelps you avoid that.
Speaker 2 (45:13):
I had.
I had a situation that actuallyhappened today.
So I told Erica yesterday thatI just got a new, I just adopted
a new kitten and you know, I Ilike to believe that I'm the cat
whisperer, because most of thetime I am.
So the cat has been hidingunder the kitten has been hiding
under the bed and she.
I went out, she came back and Icouldn't find her and then I
(45:34):
found her in the bathroom.
She was actually behind this,this shower curtain.
So I sat on the floor and Iopened up the shower curtain and
I saw her and without thinking,I reached out to pet her and
she like freaked out and ran,like ran up my arm, I got
scratched up, she jumped off myshoulder and I said, ok, that
was my fault, not the cat'sfault, that was my fault.
So like I didn't blame the catand I'm like, ok, now I got to
(45:58):
do some repair, repair work, butthat's what it's training us.
It's not training them Right,it's training the person.
Speaker 3 (46:08):
That's right.
Yeah, exactly that's what it'straining us.
It's not training them right.
Speaker 1 (46:11):
It's training the person, that's right.
Yeah, exactly that's what wetry to do, I so as a.
So I'd like to visit on alsosome of the consequences from a
medical perspective that thatzach and brie were speaking on,
especially when the concept ofum restricting the dog'sway.
So there are a certain numberof dogs that have a
predisposition to what's calleda collapsing trachea and that
(46:34):
means that their tracheal ringsand the cartilage in it are not
as sturdy or robust as a typicalanimal and they have incomplete
not all species this is thecase, but we have incomplete
tracheal rings.
This is why someone can bechoked to death by also the
(46:54):
injury to the trachea, as far ascrushing the trachea with that
action.
So any time with those types ofpressure and component although
usually most of these moreaggressive techniques are
utilized on larger breed dogsthat are not as predisposed to
this that is just fundamentallylike it can cause injuries to
(47:17):
the trachea, which is obviouslyessential for life, aka an
airway right.
The other component that Ithink is very important to
recall is that as you increasefear-based responses of animals,
what that makes it makes themedical care of those animals
much more challenging.
(47:43):
I work with a lot of dogs thathave trauma history.
I work with a lot ofchallenging behavior cases.
And number one it's amazingwhen people come to me and by
the end of the visit, if theirdog is literally just fearful,
that I can have a bond with thatdog by the end of the visit and
(48:06):
people who express theirappreciation for thank you for
you know working with my dog inthat way.
And I think it's important toremind veterinary professionals
that even like you, have tobuild in space to create a bond
with that animal and the processof working with that animal, to
work with that animal in a waythat makes each subsequent visit
(48:28):
easier.
Because it can go the other wayand if I cannot actually do a
physical exam on an animal, Ican't provide the care that that
animal needs for its best, mostoptimal health.
And so, foundationally, when Ihave a patient that I can't even
handle and I actually have touse sedation in order to do a
(48:52):
complete physical exam, thereare risks that I am taking by
putting that animal under a drugthat's going to modify its
cardiovascular system if Ihaven't even had the opportunity
to listen to that heart or knowif there's a murmur or
something else.
So also in that process of therelationship that you are
(49:13):
creating with your pet and yourcompanion animal, that by giving
the animal an opportunity toexplore the world with the
safety and comfort of your bondand that understanding just like
you know, I know that I'mbraver when I have people in my
life that I feel safe with andwe're doing something together
(49:34):
that is beyond my comfort zone.
It's literally the same thingfor these wonderful animals.
You have to work with them overtime, right, and sometimes it
takes us time to be comfortablewith a new technique.
So this is why I try and remindpeople because we are how
should I say also in like oursocial media world looking for
(49:54):
instant gratification andinstant things to change
instantly and a button to pushthat's going to make something
magically different, and that'sjust not how learning works.
Exactly as Brie was sayingearlier, it's not how learning
works.
Exactly as Brie was sayingearlier, it's not how learning
works, it's not how people work,it's not how animals work, that
we need to introduce thingsover time, in a stepwise way, to
(50:17):
allow a living being tofamiliarize itself with its
environment.
Speaker 2 (50:26):
I think I, yeah that's, that's what I had to say
so we have about maybe 10minutes, and I still and I did
look up somebody, because one ofthe things that erica and I are
going to do now is we're alsogoing to, uh, dedicate the last
couple minutes of the episode tosomebody that's been killed in
palestine so I found ajournalist I just wanted to
mention at the end.
(50:46):
So, in the late, the last 10minutes, bree, were there any
things that you think are reallyrelevant for our listeners to
know about, like how to changeit, what we can do about it?
Are there any animal activistgroups that are involved in
creating change that people canjoin?
Speaker 4 (51:06):
You can follow us.
Speaker 2 (51:09):
I already did so shameless but for the listeners
out there, you have a youtubestation and it's called a zach
george's dog training revolution.
Is that correct?
Speaker 3 (51:20):
yeah, our intersectionality content is
mostly yes oh, the mic go aheadour um.
What was I saying?
Speaker 4 (51:31):
intersectionality yeah, where we discuss issue
wait till it's green, see whenit turns green.
Speaker 2 (51:36):
Yeah that time it was on okay, um, so we discussed.
Speaker 3 (51:45):
We discuss intersectionality issues on
Instagram and Facebook, and moreso than we do on YouTube.
You can find us over there.
Just look up Zach George.
We're routinely talking aboutthat, but I think awareness is
all we're asking of the publicright now.
I mean, you can't changeanything until you're aware of
it and we notice that way thatwe treat dogs and other
problematic systems in society,like there's a strong
(52:07):
correlation there.
Speaker 4 (52:09):
A symptom that we should pay attention to.
Speaker 3 (52:10):
A symptom that we should pay attention to in order
to make people healthy again.
Speaker 4 (52:17):
Yeah, what do I want to say?
I think, okay, I think that themost helpful point for me to
remember when I'm thinking aboutanimal training is, instead of
asking how do I stop thisannoying behavior, if you just
(52:38):
ask, why is my dog doing thisannoying behavior?
Like, just change that veryfirst question and see where it
leads you from there, because Ithink that fundamental shift can
really take you very, very farin animal training and in the
end, you'll have a bettertrained dog.
Speaker 2 (52:56):
Which is comparable to parenting too.
It's the exact same thing.
If a child has an issue, maybeask why they have the issue,
versus punishing them for havingthe issue.
So it's the exact same thing,it is.
Speaker 1 (53:08):
Yeah, I want to invite people not only to follow
Zach and Bria in their work,also to look into cooperative
care as a model.
So there are some resourcesespecially for specifically
(53:29):
cooperative care is thediscussion of how to prepare
your pet for a long-termrelationship with veterinary
care.
Which is very important becausewe want that bond.
We are here foundationally andif you don't feel this way,
primarily as a veterinaryprofessional, you might need a
break.
You might have some burnout.
(53:50):
The primary purpose is instewardship and optimization of
the human-animal bond, toenhancing that, optimizing it,
enriching it in multipledimensions.
I think that is to aspire toand you should also seek to have
(54:15):
that type of relationship withthe animal care team in your
life.
And if your animal care teamdoesn't make you feel that way,
you can let them know and thenpotentially hopefully find
another location that will beable to better meet your needs.
I actually, matt.
I do have a story of aPalestinian young man that is
(54:39):
actually directly related tothis that I would like to share.
Speaker 2 (54:43):
Do you want to share that?
And then next time I'll sharethe one that I had.
Speaker 1 (54:46):
Yeah, I mean, I think we can see if there's space for
both, right, okay, sure, yeah,so also, I dropped the article
and a podcast in reflection onit into the chat so you can add
it to the show notes.
This particular story was inall of the heartbreak and
(55:10):
devastation that comes fromobserving millions of people and
countless animals and wildlifebe subjected to some of the most
advanced weaponry bombardmentin existence for two years.
This was one of the storiesthat took my breath away and
(55:36):
it's the story of Mohammed Bahar.
Mohammed Bahar was 24 years oldyoung man, palestinian man, in
Gaza, with Down syndrome.
He was murdered with an Israelipolice dog, mauled to death,
(56:03):
and it was recorded.
That recording exists.
There is an audio recording ofhis last words to this dog,
which emphasizes everythingwe've talked about.
My dear, that is enough, um, um.
(56:27):
As an autistic person who haswithin the cohort of my
community people who arenon-verbal and people who are
unable to communicate usingwords, of which you know, this
person had limitations on thatand how astutely he understood
(56:53):
that this animal, this dog thatwas killing him and attacking
him, was not to blame, to blame,and that he held that in the
words that he was saying and tothe type of human being that is
(57:15):
in able, in that moment,literally to say to their the,
the weapon of their death, andtheir pain in that moment my
dear, that is enough.
I, I have no words and thiswill be with me for the
remainder of my life.
And um, and the injustice of it.
(57:40):
Uh, and not only that, he wasnot found by his family until a
week later.
So, when we look at this story,when we understand the story of
how animals are used byviolence, these animals are
forced into the position ofbeing used to brutalize people,
(58:07):
and it is unconscionable.
It is unconscionable.
And the people that areinvolved in shipping animals
around the world for thispurpose, it is unconscionable.
I also included a podcast by anIsraeli activist who has a
conversation with anotherIsraeli activist whose sibling
(58:35):
also has Down syndrome, and theyreflect that to understand that
.
What if it was my child?
What if it was my sibling?
What if it was my child?
What if it was my sibling?
What if it was someone that Iloved deeply that was by
themselves burst in a pond by ananimal and usually these are
(59:01):
belgian malinois and germanshepherds um, that are imported
from outside of Israel, by theway, to be mauled to death, and
I don't like.
I have been bitten by animals, Ihave almost been bitten by dogs
(59:21):
.
I have people that I know in mycommunity who have been mauled
to death.
It is unacceptable for that tobe to happen as a weapon rather
than an after effect of someonetrying to provide care to an
animal that is not ready or iswounded or has that history like
(59:42):
I.
I'm glad to have at least thisplatform with which we can speak
about this and the support ofall of you to like share the
story, because it's been.
This was in July last year.
Speaker 4 (01:00:02):
Yeah, I remember that story when it happened it's
been a year Absolutely horrible,tragic.
Speaker 3 (01:00:06):
Yeah, yeah, I remember that story when it
happened.
It's absolutely horrible,tragic.
Yeah, it is, it's and that'sjust, you know, the one that
we're, that we're hearing about.
I mean, these, these thingshappen all the time and it's
been going on for centuries.
It's not normal or necessary,it's not restricted to Palestine
either.
Speaker 2 (01:00:24):
Right, Erica.
Thank you for sharing that.
I just want to make sure you'reokay.
Speaker 1 (01:00:30):
Yeah, I'm good, I let it out as it happens.
I don't hold it.
I share it yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:00:36):
Yeah, it's I.
Actually, when you first, whenyou first said you had a story,
I thought you were going to talkabout the person that was raped
by a dog in Israel, cause thatalso happened, which we can
certainly talk about at adifferent time.
It's just, there's no words forthat level of atrocity.
Yeah, I mean, it was reallypowerful, thank you.
(01:00:57):
Thank you for sharing that.
I think we'll all wait, becausepart of me also wants to honor
one person each episode, right,so that they that person has
that know as their kind of own.
Do you know what I mean?
Um, it's the least we could do.
I wish we could do more thanthat, but it's just.
It's again, there's no words.
(01:01:18):
This is the stuff that makes mespeechless and I I talk for a
living, but this is the stuffthat I'm like I don't know what
to say.
Speaker 4 (01:01:26):
You know, yeah, I really appreciate you sharing
Mohammed.
That story is awful and so hardto share, but important.
Speaker 3 (01:01:35):
Yeah, and I mean it circles back to the goal.
People have to be aware thatthis is happening, and that's
the only.
The only way they're going tobe aware is if we normalize
discussions and dissent aroundit.
Speaker 1 (01:01:46):
Yeah, and Zach, I do also want to express some deep
thanks because I have beensitting with this deep need for
the veterinary industry to talkabout this openly and you know
(01:02:11):
this is a conversation thatwe've been wanting to have for a
long time, so I'm super excitedthat we had it today.
And secondly, when you did yourlong form post specifically
about the violence of policedogs in like a, there have been
some maybe one or twopublications that have come out
academic articles but you werepart of, I think, three people
(01:02:36):
from the two from the animalbehavior world, another
colleague of ours so I'll dropboth posts into the show notes
to make sure that people can getaccess to it.
Both posts into the show notesto make sure that people can get
access to it.
Who are pushing forward thisquestion of why are dogs still
being exploited in this way?
(01:02:56):
Why are dogs being utilized asweapons of violence, to kill,
maim, disable, terrorize,control communities?
When the bond has so much moreto offer us life-saving things
to offer us, why are weutilizing it for death and
destruction?
So you helped be that publicspark, so that was like a
(01:03:24):
lifeline for me in processingthis.
So thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (01:03:27):
Yeah, I appreciate that, and I know Bree also.
I mean she worked on theresearch, the primary research,
on that video as well.
So thanks, yeah.
So I mean we're a team, butyeah.
Oh, yeah, that was a reallydifficult because we yeah, we
worked for a good couple monthson that one.
Speaker 4 (01:03:42):
Yeah, we took longer than we typically do for a few
reasons because we wanted to bereally comprehensive and just
make sure to make the best casewe could so that people who were
unfamiliar, who might onlywatch one video, at least they
could see it.
But it also was by far thehardest video we've ever made
and there was a lot of passingback and forth in the edit when
(01:04:02):
one of us hit capacity and wewere like, well, it's not
getting done unless you pick itup now because I'm done with
that.
Speaker 3 (01:04:09):
Yeah, it's very graphic footage.
Speaker 4 (01:04:11):
Yeah, yeah, so anyway , thank you for that, could you?
Speaker 2 (01:04:13):
um, is that something that we can share as well that
way?
Can you maybe email that to meand I can add it to the to the
show notes?
Thank you both so much fortaking time out of your schedule
to come and talk on the podcast.
I I really appreciate it, andErica, thank you, as always, for
setting that up so for thepeople who are listening.
I would also like to end with anote that we have talked about
(01:04:34):
some heavy stuff, which we havebeen doing a lot, so make sure
that you do some self-care everyday to make sure that you don't
burn yourself out.
So thank you again forlistening and we'll see you
again soon.
Hello everybody, and thank youagain for listening.
(01:05:10):
This is just a reminder that nopart of this podcast can be
duplicated or copied withoutwritten consent from either
myself or Wendy.
Thank you again.
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