S 3 E: 18 War, Trauma, and the Fight for Humanity

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In this raw, unedited conversation, we process our emotional responses to the ongoing conflict between Israel and Iran while exploring how intergenerational trauma shapes our understanding of war.

• Processing our emotional reactions to Israel's "preemptive strike" otherwise know as a declaration of war against Iran
• Examining how media messaging manipulates public perception of conflict to vilify people in Gaza and justify colonialism 
• Discussing intergenerational trauma from historical wars and how it shapes our worldview
• Exploring the complicity of silence and the moral obligation to speak against genocide
• Looking at environmental contamination and health impacts as hidden costs of war
• Considering how art from conflict zones helps us process and understand violence
• Sharing practical ways to take action against global atrocities
• Finding hope in community organizing and resistance movements

The most powerful change often starts with small actions. Contact your representatives, join local solidarity groups, or simply have conversations with those around you. Remember: in genocide, there is no neutrality – either you're complicit or you're fighting against it.

Doctors Against Genocide: Lifesaving Medical Aid

Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!):
https://uppbeat.io/t/hartzmann/no-time-to-die
License code: S4CEQWLNQXVZUMU4

Artwork and logo design by Misty Rae.


Special thanks to Joanna Roux for editing help.
Special thanks to the listeners and all the wonderful people who helped listen to and provide feedback on the episode's prerelease.


Please feel free to email Matt topics or suggestions, questions or feedback.
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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:15):
This podcast is not intended to serve as therapeutic
advice or to replace anyprofessional treatment.
These opinions belong to us anddo not reflect any company or
agency.

Speaker 2 (00:29):
Hi everybody and welcome back to another episode
of the United States of PTSD.
I have Erica with me againtoday and I do want to apologize
.
I know there hasn't been anepisode released in the last
couple of weeks.
I have been really busy which Ido mention on another episode
that we recorded but I haven'treleased yet, and I'm hopeful
that after the end of this monthwe will be back on track.

(00:51):
But Eric and I really wanted todo a podcast episode today to
address the terrible things thatare going on in the world right
now.
Erica, did you want to sayanything before I jump into the
story?

Speaker 1 (01:06):
Well, I think that it is clear that this will be a
co-processing episode that weare sharing with you to kind of
help you with what you might bestruggling with right now, and
hopefully what we have to sayhere will help give you

(01:28):
perspective, um, and groundingthat you can utilize to try and
like, understand how you arefeeling and how to talk about
how you were feeling about this.

Speaker 2 (01:39):
um, yeah, but we're gonna start I was gonna say
thank you for actually thank youfor reminding me about that,
because we, yeah, but we'regoing to start because, unlike
podcasts or things you can edit,people walking around every day
process it live.
So this might be helpful tohear people processing it and

(02:09):
being unedited and just kind ofraw about their feelings.
So thank you for reminding meabout that.
I forgot that part.

Speaker 1 (02:15):
I do have another like PSA part where I this is
something that I like to do in alot of my conversations where I
speak about where I'm comingfrom.
So, although Matt and I mightnot have expertise in the
geopolitics of the region thatis impacted, we have expertise

(02:38):
in things that we will bespeaking to today and I think
it's important to understandthat you can laterally apply
your skills while also likeholding that you might not know
everything about history, butthat should not be something as
a barrier to be able to make ajudgment call right about things
like human rights andinternational law.

(03:00):
Like just because you might notbe familiar with all of the
political history within aregion, it does not mean that it
is like you know it'sunequivocal, like there are
certain things that areunequivocal.
So we do want to say like weare going to try and give you
pieces of information that mightbe helpful on your journey of
deciding how to understand.

(03:20):
The information is out there,but we are coming from like a
humanist forward position.

Speaker 2 (03:27):
Absolutely.
And I know, I know I say thisin the intro of the podcast, but
just for our sake, I want toremind everybody that what we
express is really our opinionsand it doesn't reflect anything
else, right?
So we're not talking for anagency, we're not talking for
any other people.
Eric and I are talking from ourexperiences, and you know just

(03:47):
the humanity of what we're nottalking for any other people.
Eric and I are talking from ourexperiences and you know just
the humanity of what we'reseeing.
So I will just kind of give asnapshot of what happened to me.
So I have been trying reallyhard to turn my phone off before
I go to bed, or at least put itaway from me.
And there was a message thatwent off in the middle of the
night and I made the mistake ofchecking it, and that's when I

(04:08):
learned that israel had donethis uh quote, pre-emptive
strike, unquote against iran.
And I was up for the rest ofthe night, I couldn't sleep.
I was just watching every videothat was out there and, um, you
know, part of what infuriatedme and I know, erica, when you
want to talk about this a littlebit was the wording of a

(04:30):
preemptive strike, so apreemptive strike?
There is nothing about that.
That is defensive, that is anact of war.
Spin the narrative, because I'mgoing to say it right now, and I
mean this about the government,not about the people, but F

(04:51):
Israel, like I am so sick of it.
I'm so sick of their genocidalregime and dragging everybody
into their wars because they arejust it's all about like
colonialism and just dominance,and I think we're all sick of it
.
So seeing that and just feelinghelpless and being really angry
and not being able to sleep, Imean it was so.
That's how I kind of starteddown this process.

(05:12):
And, erica, do you want to talkabout what it was like for you
when you found out?

Speaker 1 (05:19):
I came in from from work and I don't know what I was
doing.
I mean, you know, like I, Ibasically tried to live and
breathe this embodiment of like,restoration and repair.
Um, and, and we'll get intomore about why that is right,

(05:40):
because, for me, my practice asa veterinarian, my um, my uh
life, like what I do, everythingthat I do, is about the fact

(06:01):
that I uh on both sides.
My grandfathers were forced tofight in wars that they didn't
want to fight in, right, and itshaped everything, like my
entire life, how I was raised,entire life, how I was raised,

(06:30):
the brokenness of my family, theintergenerational trauma, the
ability to.
I have people in my life fromaround the world, and many of us
are people who have beenimpacted by war, and so one one
of my and I said broken family,right, my grandparents were

(06:50):
people who were traumatized bywar.
They raised children right Ofhow, like in, and how they
raised my parents and how myparents raised me Like.
There are echoes of that so youcan look at, you can look at
war veterans that are impactedright now, and earlier today I

(07:14):
was looking at, you know, avideo of an Israeli soldier,
like screaming about how hemurdered 40 people.
He basically screams at the topof his like I murdered 40
Palestinians for you, and Ican't even get mental health
care appointments.

Speaker 2 (07:34):
Which, by the way, is no different in our country.

Speaker 1 (07:36):
Right.

Speaker 2 (07:37):
Our country treats military people terribly.
Right so in terms of mentalhealth.

Speaker 1 (07:43):
Right.
So that person you know, youknow and we can you know, like
who's part of a system, who'sbeen raised in a system, who's
been raised with indoctrinationand I say this as someone who is
half german, right, I say thisfrom a place of knowledge, of
living, being a person of color,living, spending part of my

(08:06):
time in Germany in a family,right that has this legacy,
right, and it doesn't.
It doesn't go away, right, it'sstill there and I grew up with
it.
I grew up in in the samehousehold as it, with it, I grew

(08:28):
up in the same household as it,and so what that does is that
it's going to beintergenerational violence.
So I have chosen mothersbecause my family had those
effects or impacts after that,and one of those chosen mothers
is from Iran.

Speaker 2 (08:48):
So when you first found out about it, how did you
react Like, do you remember?
Like, what was your like?
What was your visceral responsewhen you?

Speaker 1 (08:55):
Oh, when I was growing up.
So, the other part of my familyI'm half Taiwanese, right, so I
grew up very young having beingfamiliar with those
conversations of what are, whatare we?
You know, the, the fear ofimminent invasion, right, as

(09:15):
citizens, right, the citizens ofthe fear of imminent war.
So I have been right.
So, like my chosen mom and I,like, have had conversations
over the last two years, um, andbefore then, where, like war,
the threat of war, because we,in order to see family, I did

(09:38):
have the opportunity to meetextended family um, we had to
meet in turkey, right, so familyfrom iran was able to get to
turkey so we could all betogether to celebrate, um, the
marriage of family in the unitedstates.
And that was my first timebeing like I can't even not

(10:02):
begin to express like it didn'tmatter that it's a different
culture.
It still felt like home becausethere's something about that,
about when, when the war is inthe room, that, like, you take
care of each other.
Like my grandmother's communitythat I grew up, spending my

(10:22):
summers in, were people who hadto flee different areas and
relocated, because we'reoriginally from Sudetenland that
was ethnically cleansed, sothey had and they escaped.
There's a cohort of people whoalso escaped from Sudetenland to
East Germany and then escapedthe Gestapo again from East
Germany to West, and all settledtogether we're able to find

(10:44):
each other.
What right that like blows mymind every day just thinking
about that.
But they took care of eachother, right?
My grandmother's next doorneighbor was from romania erica,
can I jump in for one second?

Speaker 2 (10:58):
I mean, this is all like super relevant information
but like but I just want to know, like, how are you responding
when you found out about?

Speaker 1 (11:04):
it um, like my, like it, well, obviously,
intellectualizing it, that's thething.

Speaker 2 (11:08):
Well, that's a great.
Yes, you are.
That's the point, yeah that'sthe.

Speaker 1 (11:11):
I mean yeah, I well, this is because I've spent my
entire life intellectualizingworking on being okay.
Right, and I think that'ssomething that I'm coming to
realize as a distinction.
Right, because I grew upunderstanding starvation after

(11:33):
war, like understanding theabsolute annihilation of
structures.
Structure is what does it mean?
To leave everything that youhave behind and start over twice
I mean technically by parentsand their migration route.
It was again, so three.
You know like so many times.
To restart, to look around, yousee everything that matters to

(11:57):
you and be like you know.
So this is the philosophy thatwas trained into me at a young
age is that your home is whereyou are.

Speaker 2 (12:06):
So it sounds like actually, your response was that
you went to a place of relivingit, yeah, and also then
intellectualizing it, becauseyou do have firsthand experience
with going through stuff likethis.
So that's, you know, for thepeople who are listening, that's
, that's important.
For other people who may behaving the same responses, that
that's, that's a normal response, whereas, you know, I don't

(12:26):
have the firsthand experience.
My first thought goes to myfirst feelings kind of go to
rage and like helplessness andjust like yeah how much of this
do we need to see before theworld says enough is enough?
I mean, if you think about allthe stuff that's happened.
So we've had two lawmakersassassinated, we had a reporter

(12:47):
shot on TV with a bullet, with arubber bullet, who was just
reporting.

Speaker 1 (12:52):
Horses being used to trample peaceful protesters.

Speaker 2 (12:56):
And you've got Florida.
Who is like saying now it's OKto like run people over and
they're going to like assaultanybody and put them in the
hospital, if they even get outof line, you know it's a culture
of violence.

Speaker 1 (13:08):
It's an addiction.
Like like it is an addiction, ohit's yes, it's, it's, it's ab,
it's like abject fascism, it'sjust, it's like horrible, it's
absolutely horrible I, you know,to be honest, part of it, what,
what I have been feeling, whatI've been feeling for I don't
know, to be honest, probably myentire life, right, Is this?

(13:30):
Um is horrified?
Yeah, I have spent my entirelife horrified.
I have never not been horrified, even as like, like my first
memories are being horrified andlike I think there's something
that happens differently whenyou have a relationship with
death from a very young age.
Right, my relationship withdeath started, you know, with

(13:52):
some of my first memories and Idon't like it's.
It's just what I know, right,I'm just familiar with it and
it's taken me a lifetime to tryand articulate it or describe or
to even understand what ishappening in my body.
And, like you know, I speakfrom a place of like

(14:13):
intergenerational CPTSD.
Most likely, you know, I'm alsospeaking from a point of just
absolute refusal to accept thistype of carnage as acceptable.
It is not the world that I wantto live in and I, you know,

(14:36):
like so sometimes I think I'm.
It feels like I'm going tovomit, right, Like this
underlying nausea that has been,you know, hanging out on my
shoulder, you know, as a littlecompanion, throughout my entire
life.

Speaker 2 (14:57):
You know what I think is difficult for tell me if I'm
wrong about this, because Iknow this is what was difficult
for me, but I know that you hadthe same experience in terms of
like timeline is that from theget go I knew this was a
genocide from the get go and youknow I remember I was recording
season one of this podcast whenit happened and you know I

(15:18):
wanted to talk about it and Iknow Wendy was really kind of
remiss to talk about it.
She, she was uncomfortabletalking about it and everybody
around me was like talking abouthow it was anti-semitic to then
.
It wasn't really a genocide andisrael has a right to defend
itself.
Israel, the perpetual victimstate.
You know they, they just have aright to defend themselves and
I and I now I've seen people areare where I was then, like a

(15:42):
lot more people are starting toto see's happening.
But I've gotten to the pointwhere silence is complicity and
I'm sick and tired of editingmyself and not saying what I
want to say.
I've sent my senator two emailstoday saying you know, as a
taxpaying person and I thinkthis is true most people here I
am sick of using my tax dollarsto fund genocide in another

(16:05):
country's war, in anothercountry that controls us.
You know, like, how many moretimes do we have to see him?
And we've had people selfimmolate.
You know to say, like, whatthey're doing is wrong.
We've had people there arecountless videos of kids being
murdered.
Countless videos, countless,like all sorts of atrocities
happening, idf soldiers takingpictures of themselves

(16:26):
themselves, like torturingpeople and posting it with
smiles on their faces.
And if you are still and I'msaying this to anybody if you
are still defending israel atthis point, you are a sick
person.
I am just.

Speaker 1 (16:37):
I am saying that yeah , I, you know the way that I
would say, is also a dissociatedfrom humanity person.

Speaker 2 (16:46):
Yeah, completely disassociative.

Speaker 1 (16:48):
And you know this is when people talk about like
decolonial theory, right, and Ithink it's taken me a long time
because I've been very confusedSorry, I've been confused with
American culture my entire lifeand it has taken a long time to
understand that because there'sso much waste, right, there's so

(17:10):
much waste in this process,there's so much destruction,
extraction right there, I think,like the soil is so
contaminated, what is going togrow?
Right?
There are reports coming outfrom Afghanistan about the birth
defects, right, we haveinformation Of people in

(17:31):
Afghanistan.
Yes, birth defects cancer right,we have in my own backyard in
Tucson.
There's a wonderful book aboutit and actually I do believe we
can get the author on here.
Invite the author.

Speaker 2 (17:46):
Oh, that'd be cool.
What's the book?

Speaker 1 (17:55):
I have to.
It's called Disabled Ecologies.
I, you know I misplace itbecause, like, I carry it around
like a comfort blanketsometimes and you know being
like.
I'm going to read this soon.
It's a powerful book.
It's an academic, investigative, journalistic, community-based
book about someone talking abouthow the contamination of
aquifers by Raytheon in Tucsoncaused significant abnormalities

(18:20):
in many children, right, andaffected a whole community and
has contaminated a preciousaquifer resource for always.
That water is not rescuable,right, and there was so.
People living in that area whoare so enthusiastic for war are

(18:44):
very, are completely ignorantabout that.
They are not.
They are not escaping from whatis being done to their bodies
just by the pollution that'sbeing created by this.
Yeah, that's environmentaldestruction is also impacting
our entire planet.
That's an absolutely greatpoint and you know, even the

(19:09):
strike, the of striking, likenuclear uh facilities or places
where, like these, radioactivematerials are, like the method
of the strike, they could haveended up with radioactive
contamination affectingaffecting civilian areas.

Speaker 2 (19:26):
Well, they still might.
I mean, couldn't they still Imean?

Speaker 1 (19:30):
it was like part of a risk right.
So basically, what I'm going tosay emphatically once is that
if you are only followingmainstream news and what
politicians say, you aredivorced from being an educated,
responsible global citizen I100% indoctrinated with
propaganda yep, absolutely, andthere's a.

Speaker 2 (19:53):
There's a um I god, I forgot the name of it.
You may know it off the top ofyour head, but there's a um, a
website to track APEC, like whoAPEC is giving money to.
So for any of us, who, anyanybody out there who doesn't
believe this you can easily lookthis information up, like how
many politicians and how manynews sources are owned by APEC,
and there are videos out thereof them talking about very

(20:16):
openly and honestly, aboutediting our media in favor of
what they want us to see and andtaking out the actual facts of
what's really happening.
I mean, we don't have reportingin this country anymore.
We have propaganda.
I I know people who arelistening to radio um news
stations from other countries.
Actually, I have a couple ofpeople I know that are listening

(20:36):
to news out of portugal,because they said portugal is
actually reporting informationas a reporter and not like
putting in like propaganda.
So I mean anybody who thinksthat the current government is
working for us and is likedelusional, you know and you had
brought up about um, you knowhow they, they don't see how

(20:57):
it's going to affect them, and Iwas watching a video the other
day when, um, iran was, uh,defending itself against israel,
defending itself because israelattacked them.
I just want to point that outagain because people keep seeing
.
People are just not seeing thispart of it for some reason.
There are people videotapingand there's one woman who is
like sitting behind a, a a bus,like a bus terminal where you

(21:21):
sit, and she's videotaping andshe's laughing and the whole
time and I'm thinking, are youdelusional?
Like there are missiles comingyour way.
But I think they are so deludedinto thinking that they are
just immune to everything thatthey can get away with whatever
they want and it's you know, I,I, I, I mean it is.

Speaker 1 (21:44):
This is what happens when the military is so
worshipped, right, because whatthey're doing is they're
training soldiers.
Right, they're starting veryyoung childhood to accept, right
, being foot soldiers inexecuting the most horrific

(22:14):
types of violence on other humanbeings.
That's, it's not, it's notnormal, right you have like,
that's not how humans, that'snot how children want to grow up
, right, children are beings oflove there was something else I

(22:35):
saw and I wish I would have.

Speaker 2 (22:37):
I've watched so many things over the past couple days
.
I should have been like keepingtrack of the things that I was
watching, but somebody wastalking and it was very true.
They said if you want to knowwhat country you're in and they
gave examples of like so ifyou're in china, you can't.
You can't criticize the chinesegovernment.
It's against the law.
If you're in russia, you can'tcriticize the russian government
.
It's against the law.

(22:57):
If you were in nazi germany,you couldn't criticize germany.
In the united states, who can'tyou criticize?
It certainly isn't the UnitedStates.
We can criticize the UnitedStates, all we want.
You can't criticize Israel,which is just wild.

Speaker 1 (23:14):
So for anybody who still truly thinks that we are
not owned, I think you need tokind of wake up and I think the
important thing is like, israelis not interested in the
security or safety of anyone onthis planet no way especially
they want.

Speaker 2 (23:30):
the only thing they care about us for is they want
our bodies for soldiers to gofight their wars.
And I have to tell you anysitting person in our government
who is going to advocate for usgoing into iran to fight
israel's war, they should put ontheir uniforms, put on their
big boy pants and go fight theirown war and like seriously and
take their kids with them,because the rest of the citizens

(23:51):
in this country do not want tospend our entire history
fighting Israel's wars.

Speaker 1 (23:57):
So I'm going to shift a little bit to you know, like,
think about like to people,right?
So we're we're going to shiftto people because, um, I hope
that's okay.

Speaker 2 (24:12):
Oh, yeah, I uh, maybe I was getting a little bit too
we need to let a release right.

Speaker 1 (24:18):
So understand that there are places that you need
to release that frustration,because this is, this is moral
distress, right, and also soearlier today.
So in you know part of my day,um, you know, I I do a lot of
organizing, so of course that'swhere I find my uh sanity is, by
helping my community withaction.

Speaker 2 (24:42):
So, uh, I've got like 15 different projects that I'm
doing at any particular time,but by the way, we need more
people like you, because that islike if I think if everybody
had that passion and dedication,we could get a lot of things
changed.

Speaker 1 (24:56):
Well, you know what we were talking about some of
our future episodes that we'dlike to plan about.
You know how people take action, right of stories of people who
are taking action together.
That will hopefully inspire,because each one of us can make,
like every person, you can makea difference, right, and I've I
talked about this in veterinarymedicine.
It's actually part of ananti-war message that I gave at

(25:19):
a gala of an organization that Iused to be on the board of, and
it's about how we are.
You know pebbles, and you canbe be a pebble and fling
yourself into the water andcause ripples, right.
By impacting that, that, theimmediate around you, you

(25:42):
empower people to affect otherpeople, right, and that can
expand and together we makechange.
So that is the other thing thatI'm trying to ground myself in.
I'm also grounding myself in inother.
The lineage of anti-war activismis global right, and it and

(26:03):
it's is global right and it'sthroughout all humanity right.
So, for example, in Taoism,there are anti-war principles in
Taoism, and that comes fromChinese philosophers from
thousands and thousands of years, and so we were talking about

(26:30):
the art produced fromcommunities who have been
impacted by war, and I want tostart out with a quote from an
Iranian poet poet uh marjanesatrapi um

(26:55):
m-a-r-j-a-n-e-s-a-t-r-a-g-i?
is this something that's public,that we can point like a link
to, and then yeah yeah, this isa very, very powerful thing,
because and this happened, youknow, um at another point in
time because it is veryimportant that people actually
go and learn about Iranianhistory, because we are we, the
United States governmentundermines their democratic
society, so we undermineeverybody.

(27:19):
And this is the quote.
If I have one message to giveto secular America, it's that
the world is not divided intocountries.
The world is not dividedbetween East and West.
You are American, I am Iranian.
We don't know each other, butwe talk together and we

(27:40):
understand each other perfectly.
The difference between you andyour government is much bigger
than the difference between youand me, and the difference
between me and my government ismuch bigger than the difference
between you.
Me and you, and our governmentsare very much the same.

(28:01):
That's very powerful that's verypowerful, right.
So I would say that's a way totry and understand is look to
the art that comes out of warand because our words are only
so much, but imagery, the artlike, especially, you know,

(28:22):
anime, has a deep history andyou know we'll see if we have
time to talk about some of that.
Um, but yeah, I mean this is.
This is actually like a workerslike across the globe.
This is a global class struggle.
It's people with a lot of money, with a lot of interest in

(28:44):
continuous war, with feedingtaxpayer dollars into a war
machine, then destroying thingsand then picking up the
contracts to try and repair it,but doing a shitty job of it.
That's basically the cycle thatwe're in.

Speaker 2 (28:59):
Oh, you know, I think that's the hardest, having
grown up here, and you knowbecause you talk a lot about
indoctrination and a lot of whatwe learn in school, growing up,
is indoctrination and I think,having seen that as an adult,
challenging that and realizingthat, holy crap, like we have
been the bad guys so many timesin history, repeatedly, over and

(29:21):
over and over again, but aretold that we are the good guys
and we are fighting fordemocracy that's a bunch of bs,
like the only thing the onlything we're fighting for is to
oppress everybody else in theworld.
That's literally the only thingwe're fighting for, and it's
nauseating, like once yourealize that it's nauseating
it's everywhere and the thing.

(29:42):
The other thing I just want tosay I know you want to go back
to the people, but this issomething that really pissed me
off.
Um, you know, obviously we havethis whole like no king's day,
uh, you know, a protest that waseverywhere, and I'm sure this,
I'm sure there's no umcoincidence that that coincided
with the attack on iran either.
I'm sure, oh yeah that's what.

Speaker 1 (30:01):
That's what it is.
I, I was just coming back fromprotesting and then I went to a
know your rights and this,talking about our carceral
slavery state.
Anyway, that's another soapbox.
That's another soapbox, um, butlike and that's what.

(30:24):
So like I had come home from aday full of like.

Speaker 2 (30:36):
No-transcript yeah and I.
The thing that got me reallyannoyed is so you know,
everybody on like all the peopleI know on facebook were
obviously posting lots of thingsabout this, this protest, and,
like you know, f trump, and thatthey're going to go to the
protest and all the stuff thatthey're doing and everybody's
like supporting and that'sreally great and everything.

(30:57):
And then I noticed thatanything I post about people
being killed in, like g, gaza orlike any of the genocide that's
happening, yeah, no, it's likeradio silence.

Speaker 1 (31:08):
People I mean, like some of it is an excuse right
have a tendency to bedistractible and not follow up,
or are not, you know, payingattention to multiple streams of
information.
I am audi hd, so not only am Iable to, am I like, can't help,

(31:34):
but pay attention to multiplestreams of information by my
autistic brain like demands thatI categorize it.
So, yeah, this head is.

Speaker 2 (31:43):
Well, I get that part of it.
But I mean, if we were to takeI mean I think I have like close
to, I think, 600 friends onFacebook, which I know is, you
know not, I'm not an influencerby any means, but I mean, if we
were to even like take outpeople who are maybe ADHD or
have issues about likeprocessing, that is not going to
be 600 people.

Speaker 1 (32:07):
Yeah, you know, honestly, it comes from it's
it's cultural right.
I mean my perspective assomeone who wasn't, didn't,
wasn't raised with Americancultural it's cultural right.
It's like toxic individualism,it's so at a pathological level.

Speaker 2 (32:16):
Like I, literally I should I slap them all and be
like, pay attention, this isn'tlike we're talking about you
know somebody not picking upyour garbage this week, and I
mean this is like people dying,starving to death, like people
who are being killed andbrutalized and murdered, and
like it's it's so ridiculousabout the uh, how in florida,

(32:43):
they're gonna like run downprotesters now?
And she was basically saying,well, good, because you know,
the protesters deserve to be rundown.
And I'm like why do theydeserve to be run down?
And she said, well, becausethey're pulling people out of
cars and they're like beatingthem up and they're raping them.
And I'm like, oh, they are.
And she's like, yeah, I'm likewhere did you hear that?
And she's like it's all overthe place, like doing it
everywhere.
And I said so.
Then there should be somestatistics on that, correct?

(33:03):
So can you please look up howmany people in Florida have been
raped and beaten duringprotests by being pulled out of
their car?
And she looked it up on herphone and she was like, well, I
can't seem to find it.
Well, maybe there's a reasonyou can't find it.
And she's like oh, like, ohwell, they're suppressing the
media.
And I said so.
You think they're going tosuppress something, a narrative
they're trying to push.

(33:24):
That doesn't make any sense.
Do you think there's anotherreason why maybe it's not there?
Oh, because it didn't happen.
Maybe that's a reason why it'snot there because it didn't
happen and it doesn't happen Iappreciate you because I am, I
cannot.

Speaker 1 (33:37):
I cannot even interact with people.
I can't.
I can't For my well-being.
I stay very far away from them,so bless you and bless anyone
who's listening.
Who does that work?
It is important, it needs to bedone and I am grateful to you

(33:58):
for doing it, because I cannot,I cannot.

Speaker 2 (34:04):
I'm not going to lie it.
It's very difficult.
It's very difficult, but that'sthe only way you're going to
get people to see it is by, like, having them look at themselves
and say, wait, this doesn'tmake any sense.

Speaker 1 (34:13):
Yeah, because it doesn't so so I want to.
I'm going to circle back alittle bit.

Speaker 2 (34:20):
Okay, sorry.

Speaker 1 (34:21):
We're going to no, no , it's okay.
I feel like that's going to bethe cadence, right?
You know, every conversationhas like a rhythm to it, right?
So this is the chorus.
We go back to the chorus, andthe chorus is sharing some

(34:41):
things from different spaces.
So this is from my chosenmother, who is so kind and so
loving and, you know, as someoneyou know, she helps me heal a
lot of things by being in mylife and continues to um, and

(35:09):
you know, like I'm not inpartnership with her, hers, that
I don't anymore, but um, andand I, we, you know we check in
on each other, um, so I askedher, um, if she would want to
share any words, and so, andI'll add that she says dear

(35:31):
erica, I'm so proud of you, keepup your good work, you're a
good human being.
My thought on all this violenceis it is not that people,
wherever they are, hate eachother to the point to seek
destruction of each other.
In the US, iran, russia, israel, ukraine, gaza or anywhere else

(35:54):
in the world period, these arethe leaders that, usually by
manipulation and corruption,have come to power and, for
selfish motivation, want todestroy people, the smaller
leaders in service of bigger onethat is like greed power, money

(36:14):
, right?
Um, that's my aside.
Um, they have success bywashing the brain of uneducated
people, because it lets us notforget that any dictator needs
the support of the public.
If we want a change in theworld, our best weapon is
educating and making peopleaware.

(36:36):
The more people have awarenessand education, the safer, better
world we will have, and she'ssending us lots of respect.

Speaker 2 (36:47):
Yeah, and that's so powerful.
I mean I think you couldprobably even talk about this
from your family experience.
When there is that shift inpower towards, like tyranny or
towards fascism, I mean thefirst thing that they try to do
is dismantle education right,and kill, like, all the people
who have, or like get rid of allof the people who have like
status and education.

(37:08):
When you brought up the artsearlier, I mean this is
something I only thought aboutwhen you were talking about, but
it makes me think about how wehave this cancel culture, trying
to cancel comedians and tryingto cancel actors and, you know,
trying to cancel people withinfluence and trying to cancel
artists, and that is I.

(37:29):
I wonder if that was all partof a plan to get rid of the
people who could influence inpositive directions.
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (37:36):
Like I just had that thought yeah, I think also, like
capitalism has devalued artright and and created these
systems of of disconnectingpeople from that.
And the reason why I say thatis because words is one way of
receiving information.
What is, you know?
They say a picture is worth athousand words right, yeah that

(37:59):
was like there's meaning to that.
That's not like a, that's notlike a nothing statement.
Right, when we experience,create something that is beyond
the senses, when we look atwords on a piece of page, but
you know the pet, the pen ismightier than the sword and a
picture is worth a thousandwords like those should come
together yeah, I agree thoseshould go together, because when

(38:24):
we look at imagery, and so forme, like it was like a um, and
when we, when we, when we watchit, expressed an art in a
different way.
And I have, you know, eventhough japan occupied tai,
taiwan for 50 years, um, I stillhave uh, an an engaged in its

(38:45):
own, like imperial violence.
Um, I still have a lot ofrespect, I have a deep respect
for the artistic community andhow they have um explored some
of this um heritage and umexplored some of this um
heritage.
And you know, like I just went,you know, as as part of my um

(39:18):
resort of doing some fun things,um, I went to go see um some
anime and theater and um, therewas an uh, there's going to be a
new Godzilla coming out, and soit was Shin Godzilla or
something like that, and duringthat there were a couple of
things where it, you know,godzilla is like the atom bomb
and war, like that's what it'sabout.
And every time where you seethe looks on the faces of both

(39:40):
the actors and the citizens ofsomething that is so destructive
that the power defies the mind,and they, they capture it very
well, like, what do you do?
When, when, when nothing youhave, is possible to fight
against this destructive?

Speaker 2 (39:58):
force.
Is that what the symbolismbehind?
I never knew that.
Yeah, you totally just taughtme something.
I, I honest to god, never evenheard of that.
But that makes sense now thatyou say that so um I recommend
like people um watch.

Speaker 1 (40:16):
You know, grave of the fireflies is another very
famous one.
Um did you say grave of thefire of the fireflies is another
very famous one.

Speaker 2 (40:21):
Did you say Grave of the Fireflies Grave?

Speaker 1 (40:23):
of the Fireflies, it follows two children after the
atom bomb.
Oh god that sounds awful.
I think it should be requiredfor every American citizen to
watch, just in general, watchthat before you watch anything
about Oppenheimer.

(40:43):
I, you know, honestly, thewhole like.
I have so much like.
I haven't even been able towatch Oppenheimer yet because I
am full of rage every time likeso, so my rage is delayed.
I'll put it that way my rage isdelayed, um, my rages is, is and

(41:05):
disappointment is held in therepetitive nature and the lack
of critical like analysis thatexists within american culture,
because it's always like this,putting militarism and violence
on such a pedestal, it'severywhere right, like just
bringing like Marvel Universe,right, oppenheimer, like all

(41:32):
those things that kind of tryand worship like this idea of
like technology for control anddominance.
It's, um, it's a distortedsense of values, because it's
basically like life-taking.
All of it is a worship ofdestruction and um, it's why

(41:55):
I've dedicated myself to likethe medicine that's dedicated to
as many living living beings aspossible.
And so I've always, you know,and I'm disappointed in my field
, I'm disappointed in myindustry.
I'm like you know, I'm lookingaround and I'm like at
veterinary medicine.

(42:16):
I'd be like I'm, you're herenow I bet that you have not
where, where, the, where theheck were you, uh, during
Vietnam war, you know, byindustry.
I wonder about that.

Speaker 2 (42:29):
We share that in common.
I'm deeply disturbed with my,with my profession as well.
I mean, there were plenty ofsocial workers.
I'm sure they were killed inGaza and but apparently they
don't have any value to the NASWbecause they're not American or
not preferred or whatever, butit's, it's just so disturbing.
But they of course gave astatement about Israel.

(42:51):
Of course, fall into that worldeither is that.
I also do know there's a largeproportion of citizens in israel
who are anti-war and have alsobeen protesting that yahoo,
they're just not publicizingthat as much.
So there are certainly plentyof innocent people all over the

(43:12):
place and it's really tragic.
It's the it's.
That's why I keep stressingit's the government, I know,
it's not the people.
The government is justbloodthirsty.
Well, and I mean I will sayit's the government, I know,
it's not the people thegovernment is just bloodthirsty.

Speaker 1 (43:22):
Well, and I mean I will say it's the government and
also the people can be a toolof the government sure of course
, like um and like I, I keep on,I try and communicate.
Like I, I am speaking from twogenerations and that's what like

(43:46):
I, that's what I see, and thisis with the start, with with the
start of any war, my entirelife, with the start of any war,
with any area where there isstarvation, I think I, like I,

(44:06):
have sat there in moral distressand there are so many people
like me, right, and you knowthere are so many, the anti-war
movement.
It's like that's the one thingthat's keeping me sane, right?
I've got people in my life whowere fighting against who, who

(44:26):
their first time gettingarrested was was protesting
against the vietnam war.
Yeah, so yeah, I've, I'velearned over the last two years
that where my community is, mycommunity, are humanitarians and
people who are fighting againstwar.
That's the community I belongto.

Speaker 2 (44:52):
Those are great people to know.
Certainly I hope that we get abigger group of people like that
, who are both criticallythinking and who are looking
towards humanity.
I hope so.
Did you want to?
I know you had read a poem.
Did you want to read that poemstill, or?

Speaker 1 (45:15):
yeah okay yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm, uh, ready to do that.
I have enough.
As shy as I am about it, I dohave feedback from a very a
Jewish voice for peace andprofessional poet, who I hope

(45:35):
will be on our podcast as aguest at some point.
Gave me the feedback.

Speaker 2 (45:42):
And I, just when people are listening to erica
something I want you to picture,because while I was watching,
erica read it the first time ontheir background it is it's an
aurora borealis, and I just wantto say that you looked like a
divine being when you, oh my godI want people to picture this

(46:04):
okay, um, and and afterwardsI'll tell you like, I'll make it
clear the like dedication of ofthis poem leave things better
than you found them.

Speaker 1 (46:21):
Lineage of that in my father the bombs, the lost
ghosts of magical creatures andmiracle medicine, the loss of
nourishment we are starvingourselves, a dysfunctional
consumption, binging theresources to vomit up waste.

(46:42):
What ruin.
I beg of you do not realize thenightmares of my fathers.
Stop materializing.
The agony of my mothers, others.
The disordered eating ofhumanity is causing us to waste,

(47:05):
us to destruction.
This beast, this titan that isconsuming everything and purging
the remains in the wasted landthank you for sharing that,
erica.
That's very beautiful and verypowerful yeah, um, my

(47:29):
great-grandfather um, was agerman soldier.
He in world war.
He held a hill with very fewmen to allow for a town to
evacuate before it was bombarded.
So he saved a lot of civilianlives and for that he received a

(47:51):
medal, pretty much theequivalent of the German medal.

Speaker 2 (47:57):
Like a medal yeah.

Speaker 1 (48:13):
He.
This message came transmittedfrom him to my grandfather, to
my father, to me, that he waslike the world will not survive
another world war.
Avoid war at all costs.
We must avoid war at all costs.

(48:34):
I had family in the Dresdenfire bombings that died, burned
alive.
That was a city full ofrefugees and artists.
It was not a military targetand they dropped pieces of paper

(48:56):
on those civilians.

Speaker 2 (48:59):
And you know it's interesting because when have we
seen that?

Speaker 1 (49:01):
recently, right when that happened, I collapsed.
I couldn't stand when that newsand when people were talking
about it like a legitimate formof treating civilians, I didn't
know that that was possible,like I didn't.
That had never happened to mebefore.

(49:22):
I didn't know that that waspossible, like I didn't.
That had never happened to mebefore.
So you know.
The other thing is that myfather it was the thing that was
taught to him by his father andthis will leave things better
than when you found them.
The place where my family isfrom it's no longer Germany and

(49:54):
displacement.
You know, when you think aboutcommunities being broken,
families being broken, familiesbeing erased, you know that part
that I've come to understandmore was that where, where my
grandfather and greatgrandfather from were from the
borderlands, where the majoritymore citizens died right and

(50:18):
more men were forced conscriptedinto the army that died in that
area than any other part ofgermany.
So it is a um.
The people from there were muchmore anti-war and then, as part
of world war ii before thatthey had been under occupate
military occupation, um and um,and then got pulled into another

(50:39):
war and then got pulled intoanother war and then were
ethnically cleansed.
So what happened to thosepeople, those citizens, those
people who were consumed bytheir governments, is not
something that I've really hadplaces to talk about, because it

(51:01):
was like Nazi Germany, germany,of course, right, but um, and
also you know that what camefrom that was this this you know
, understanding that a resourceis precious, anything is
precious, right, my grandmotherwould open presents in a way

(51:25):
that she would save the paper tobe reused, right, nothing was
thrown away.
I was raised with that.
Everything like food, you know,like everything.
If you did not eat it, you usedit to nourish the soil.
There was nothing likeeverything was precious, because

(51:51):
they understood what it waslike to basically be in a
wasteland where, if you couldnot grow something, you would
starve.
Or they were picking up, likemy grandmother used to.
Because we kids, we loved, um,these potato pancakes, right, we
would have them with applesauce.
It's like not only not onlyjewish people eat latkes, right,

(52:13):
um, uh, so we had potatopancakes and we loved them as
kids, and my grandmother alwaysstruggled with it, because she
was like this is, they wouldpick up potatoes and cabbages
off the side of the road, thatwould fall off of trucks.
That was the degree ofstarvation and because potatoes

(52:36):
and apples last longer and youcan kind of preserve them.
And you can kind of preservethem, you can make food out of
it, right?
So every time we asked forpotato pancakes with apples, my
grandmother, she would ask shewould make them for us.
But for her it was traumatizingevery single time.

Speaker 2 (52:59):
That totally makes sense.
Thank you for sharing that,ericaica, too.
It's a, it's a mirror for whathappens to the people now, right
like what's happening rightright now in gaza, like I see
all these videos of these kidswho are literally wasting away
and you know the the, I think,the saddest thing I've ever seen

(53:20):
, and this is, and again, ifyou're listening to this and you
are not paying attention tothis, I would really urge you to
look at videos coming out ofgaza and just see, like, what
palestinian people really looklike.
I mean, I've seen plenty ofvideos of them giving food to
animals first yes you know, andthe animals are all starving to
death.
I saw a dog that was wastingaway and you have kids that are

(53:42):
giving food to like cats anddogs first before feeding
themselves.
And that's a testament to thebeauty of these people, like the
resiliency and like thestrength and you know it's the
same for your family that you'retalking about like their
ability to to thrive in theworst possible conditions ever.

Speaker 1 (54:02):
And I mean this is why also activists in Europe
have been so like maddened bytheir country's responses
because we like it's like it'slike we were raised better.
Yeah, just like our youth todayare like you raised us to
expect and demand better.

Speaker 2 (54:24):
I was actually.
It's funny.
You say that I was verydisgusted by France's response.
I don't know if you saw France,but they said they're going to
be backing Israel, of course,and Israel's assault and attack
of a sovereign nation.

Speaker 1 (54:37):
And they're going to continue the GHF war crime.
You know.

Speaker 2 (54:42):
France was on my bucket list, will never visit
france now.
I mean, that's just absolutelydisgusting.
But I'm happy to know countrieslike ireland and spain and like
italy have been like and greecehave been like.
You know, no more turkey there'sreasons for that history of
those countries there are, yeahI'm happy to say I'm, I'm, you

(55:03):
know, 30 irish.
I'm very happy, you know, Ilove the irish people.
I mean, they're just amazingpeople.
And you know, I'm really,really disgusted by francer, and
I'm really disgusted, yeah, andand I'm also I'm like 20
something percent french too, solike, but not proud of that
right now.

Speaker 1 (55:23):
You know what?
What I would say is still stilllook to the lessons of the past
, because we have had likeradical, humanistic, forward
lineages of organizing that haveliterally been stamped out.
Do you know?
The poem actually starts withfirst, they started with
socialists and communists, right, right, like it's because and

(55:44):
that actually undermining thatand we can anyway.
Sorry, this could get real, wecould get real deep into the
weeds here, but fundamentally-Maybe we'll do that on the next
episode.
Fundamentally, when we thinkabout like resources, resource
extraction right, extractionright asking you should be

(56:06):
asking questions about why whyour health care system is shit.
We should be asking questions,like you should be asking
questions.
I mean, I I've already askedmyself those things and why I
feel the way, those things thatI have.
But if you have it right withthe education system right.
Why are we like?
Why are resources like the?
What they were trying to do istake kids off of benefits from

(56:32):
off of benefits, um, like snapand other things at the age of
seven oh yeah, while alsofighting things like free lunch
in schools and fightinghomelessness and like watching
our public lands to be like afree-for-all for resource
extraction oh yeah you know likethis is.

(56:56):
This is like wealthy peoplewanting to make more money and
to do so, they don't care.
It's short, short-term thinking.
They don't care if we are goingto be in a toxic soup that is
no longer sustainable for futuregenerations.
They do not care I.

Speaker 2 (57:16):
I had a friend.
He wrote a book called thetoxic the toxic states of
america, and one of the thingshe wrote about in there was um,
oh my god, I just had a brainfart.
What were you just remind mewhat you just said.
Um, oh my god, I just oh.
Yes, I know what.
It was okay that at one pointin time in organizations it was

(57:40):
called personnel, but now it'scalled human resources, and he
was talking about how, becausepeople are just seen as
resources, they're actually notseen as like individuals that's
a really great point and Ithought, oh my god, that is,
that is a good point.

Speaker 1 (57:53):
He also referred to media as weapons of mass
destruction, which I thoughtalso was a really great point I
mean when you think that mediahas manufactured consent for the
absolute obliteration of theMiddle East for decades,
specifically for oil.

Speaker 2 (58:10):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (58:14):
You know, guess what?
They did it with rubber before,then.
Now they're doing it with rareearth minerals.

Speaker 2 (58:22):
That's what's fueling the Congo too, right?
Isn't that what's fueling thecongo too right?

Speaker 1 (58:25):
isn't that what's fueling the genocide in the
congo was also resources yes, itis yeah yeah, it is, and and
it's why they are grabbingimmigrants off of the street to
be put into private prisons, tobe paid a dollar a day to do
work.
This is not like.

(58:46):
So it's all.
It's all connected, right?
Nothing is more profitable forthe few than war.

Speaker 2 (58:54):
You know.
Interestingly enough, you saidwhen you were talking about how
history is important because itrepeats itself, and it really
does.
I will point out that the mostpeaceful countries have always
been matriarchies.
I'm just going to point thatout, yeah, right.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (59:13):
I'm I'm pro that position.
There's a lot of truth behindthat uh, you know, I think that
if your, if your leaders are nottalking about generative and
restorative things that nourishcommunities and are talking

(59:34):
about control, regulation, whatlike, like criminalization of,
like, human beings, so thiswhole, like we're going to make
it illegal to be unhoused so youcan then go to prison.
A reason to move state tax,like taxpayer dollars, into geo
group um again for for labor yep, free labor.

Speaker 2 (01:00:01):
I mean I mean tech.
It's just slave labor, that'sall it is.
And they're actually.
They just tried to.
I don't know if it passed ornot, but they were trying to
pass a bill in Rhode Island tomake um crimes for sex work not
sex trafficking, sex work morepunishable.

Speaker 1 (01:00:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:00:29):
Because of course that's just putting more people
in prison for nonviolent crimes.

Speaker 1 (01:00:31):
That shouldn't be a crime to begin with, so that we
can just have slave labor in theform of prison systems.
Yep, I like you know there's.
I think that people like what Ithink and I do have some
compassion for it.
A little bit, not a whole lotof patience.
I can have compassion and alsobe impatient.
Oh yeah, and part of it is thisyou know the methods of control

(01:01:00):
the violence.
Coming back to the core,because we are in the hunger
games, we are the capital, sothat's.
That's what I thought a lot withthe whole eczema thing like
it's just anyways, but uh, likenot quite the same, but um

(01:01:20):
anyways.
Um they're, you know, and and Idon't it's really hard to
recognize.
I think some people have reallybeen talking about like the
leaders that we have, right,like people in these areas of,
of of conflicts, also within theUnited States, who are like we

(01:01:43):
have leaders that are absolutelyinsane, yes, right, and I also
then I look at all of the otherlevels of leadership right in
institutions and I'm like it'seither um, cowards, uh,
completely full of self-interest, or, um, absolutely insane and
um, I also like, so I don't, Iuh I have had more time to to

(01:02:08):
cope with it and and figure outlike how I I want to move
through that reality.
Uh, and I have like some, somecompassion for people who are
like getting thrown into the hotwater like, who wake up and are
like holy crap, like it's likea whole, you know, probably

(01:02:30):
identity crisis to a certainextent.

Speaker 2 (01:02:34):
Yeah, I think that's a.
That's a great point.

Speaker 1 (01:02:39):
I'm sorry If you're, if you're like trying to process
all of this all at once.
I'm so sorry.
I've been dealing with it mywhole life.

Speaker 2 (01:02:48):
I mean, it's a lot, but people have to start.
I mean, if things are going tochange, people need to wake up.
You just stop walking aroundlike being distracted by all of
these things that are, you know,like the whole.
What's that show?
Not Desperate Housewives?
What is that show?
The Real Housewives, right?

Speaker 1 (01:03:06):
The Real.

Speaker 2 (01:03:07):
Housewives of the White House, Elon Musk and
Donald Trump.
That whole thing was justtheatrics to get people to pay
attention to that stuff.
We need to stop looking at thatstuff and we need to keep
looking at things like Gaza.
We have to keep looking atwhat's happening in the genocide
.
We have to keep facing it andfighting it.

Speaker 1 (01:03:29):
Yeah, because have to keep looking at what's
happening in the genocide.
We have to keep facing it andfighting it.
Yeah, because that's the onlyway it's going to stop.
So my other recommendation tothe audience is go to the
doctors against genocide webinarfrom today, june 15th.
I don't know.
I know that you were in forpart of it.
Um, it was, it was, it wasabsolutely uh, it was so
powerful and honest can youaccess the recording after the

(01:03:50):
fact is, or is that?
Uh, yeah, they posted on theiryoutube page I didn't.
I didn't know that they had ayoutube page they put all of
their webinars they loaded up ontheir youtube page that is good
to know.

Speaker 2 (01:04:00):
Thank you for telling me that.
So I I put the link on facebooktoday and nobody paid attention
to it, which pissed me off.
Um, but but okay.

Speaker 1 (01:04:11):
So I've also been doing it, since we're talking
about like, trying to like, like, screaming our heads off of at
people in our lives who are like, they're like I'm just trying
to get by and I'm like you knowwhat.
So is everyone like?
This is not the time to sit onthe sidelines, honey, and there

(01:04:34):
are many ways.
There are many ways, right.
Not everyone has to like be in15, try to be in 15 places at
once, like I'm trying to do.
It's not you know like, butsomething right, because I have
so many people in in my lifewho've been like oh, erica,
you're just like.
So you, you're um, you know,you, you care so much and like,

(01:04:55):
you're like, yeah, but I also doit because it's about our
survival yeah you know, and andum and it would.
I, you know, I do have manypeople in my life who I love so
much, who are like having areally hard time, but their,
their really hard time isresulting in them being very

(01:05:17):
insular and focusing on theirdirect problems.
And if you are not somebody whois having class struggles in
this country, like if you havehousing stability, if you have
employment stability, if you arephysically safe, you need to be

(01:05:44):
doing something.

Speaker 2 (01:05:47):
Yep, I am going to say this, and I, first of all, I
do want to thank all the peoplewho continue to listen to the
show, Because we have some very,very loyal listeners and one of
them is in Germany, by the way,who has been following us from
day one and I do also want tosay that send us feedback,

(01:06:07):
because if there's things youwant us to talk about, we will
absolutely talk about it.
But I do want to say and maybeI'll lose a couple people for
this but there is no such thingas neutrality in genocide.
Either you are complicit oryou're fighting it.
So I don't care if you have abusy life.

(01:06:28):
I'm not saying you need to runout and make protests every day.
I'm not saying you have to sendout a thousand letters.
But if you even contacted yourrep or your senator and said I
oppose this, I don't want anymore money spent on this.

Speaker 1 (01:06:42):
That's something, please do and make a call.
If you make a call every day orif you call more than once a
day, if you have the ability totake five, 10 minutes out of
your day to go through fivecalls, right and and the log
that specific component, andthere are plenty of call scripts

(01:07:03):
online that and that's in dagscall to action that makes a
difference.
If you are a health care worker, if you are involved in
medicine, keep your freakinginstitutional organizations
pestered.
Make them call them too yeahright, they are ignoring emails,

(01:07:23):
oh of course they are.

Speaker 2 (01:07:24):
They like my chris murphy.
I email him all the time and Ijust get those generic emails
back about like, oh, thank youso much for your email.
You can just go to my websiteand look at where I stand on
these things, or I'll get anemail about something I didn't
even send.
I mean, this is all generic bs,they don't care.

Speaker 1 (01:07:39):
Have conversations with people.

Speaker 2 (01:07:41):
I mean, I think that's really the emphatic
component of parting to doactions is having conversations
with people, havingconversations in community and
taking action in community said,we have to really focus on

(01:08:06):
commonality and stop this wholedivision stuff and realize that
at the end of the day, like yousaid, it's affecting everybody.
It's poisoning the soil, it'scausing cancer, it's causing all
sorts of stuff.
This is the world we are livingin and if we are just ignoring
people being blown up all overthe place, at some point in time
it's going to be on yourdoorstep well, it is already on
our doorstep.

Speaker 1 (01:08:25):
It's it's with the police, brutality responses oh,
absolutely right, it's um, iceis a, is a is a gift from 9-11
and gift I don't?
Obviously I'm being sarcastic,um, I just wanted to say that
explicitly.
The increased surveillancestate, you know, and right now

(01:08:49):
I'll be clear with the jailsthat people are putting in, they
do not.
They are overcrowded, they donot have enough water, they do
not have enough food, they donot give people medical care.

Speaker 2 (01:09:00):
And to add to that too, because I think this is
important before and again, Iknow our listeners are very
smart, so they're not going tofall for this, but when you hear
people say, oh it's, you know,the Republicans, oh it's the
Democrat, no, it's happenedunder both.
Like a lot of the stuff thatyou just said actually happened
under Democratic presidencies,and it's it's both sides because
they work for the same master.

Speaker 1 (01:09:21):
It is Biden that we have to thank for reinstating
open-air prisons in deserts tothrow back to Japanese
internment.
Yeah so, but except in thissituation, there are very little
resources.
Some of these people only getfed because of mutual aid

(01:09:44):
resources, and it's anotherthing that people are trying to
criminalize.
Whenever people are trying tocriminalize the feeding of other
people, they are in the wrongand stop.

Speaker 2 (01:09:54):
Yes, well, also, you know, you have to laugh, because
they also are these same peoplewho are fighting against help,
these people who are puttinglaws in place for feeding people
and housing people and andstopping people from getting
murdered are the same people whoare running around screaming
the moral high ground about howwonderful and perfect their

(01:10:15):
morals are right, and it's likeI swear to god sometimes.
I think I think if, if I don'tbelieve in the devil, but if I
think if the devil were real,netanyahu would scare him
because they're, they're just soevil.

Speaker 1 (01:10:31):
I mean, yeah, like they're, like I don't.
I don't think that people havea real concept of, of, of that,
just like I don't know what itis that is removing people from
it.
Um, it is not hard for me torecognize that right like um,

(01:11:00):
and also to recognize the, the,the devotion to the war machine,
right, and that anyone who hasa devotion to the war machine.
There's no good in it.
There's no, there's no good init.

(01:11:25):
There's nothing.
There's never been anythinggood in war, valor.
Valor is a fallacy, like valorand killing is a fallacy.

Speaker 2 (01:11:40):
It's like do you, do you watch that show?
Black Mirror.
Sometimes yeah there was anepisode now, granted I I boycott
netflix so because they'recomplicit in genocide, so I
haven't watched the show in avery long time because I boycott
.
I canceled it but a year and ahalf ago so I can't go back and
re-watch it.
But if I remember correctly,there was an episode where they

(01:12:02):
were giving soldiers thoughtthat they were killing as uh,
like a zombie outbreak, and thenit turned out that they were
given like some sort of drugthat made them that they were
seeing zombies, but they werereally actually taking out like
villages of people and you know,that's basically what our
military does.
That's literally what militaries.

(01:12:23):
They don't necessarily have togive people the drug, but they
convince you that you arefighting these as they talk
about Palestinians all the time.
Less than human, that's whatthey do.
We have to stop seeing that.

Speaker 1 (01:12:38):
Everybody has value I think that anytime you find
yourself dehumanizing anotherhuman being, it is time to look
into yourself right and checkyour own moral compass, yeah
areas.
So, you know, like, um, like Iserve people who don't think

(01:13:12):
that people like me deserve toexist and I still like, I, I
think that is important, likecause, when I think about the
fact that, um, uh, israelidoctors who've been responsible
for torture and murder um arecoming back to the United States

(01:13:36):
, um, or people who are involvedin healthcare, who have been,
who have committed war crimes,come back to the united states
and students are like I don'tfeel safe learning from these
people and then they getpunished, I, you know it's, it's

(01:13:59):
like, uh, the there's somethingvery wrong with the ethics of
this nation Foundationally.

Speaker 2 (01:14:17):
So we need to.
So the homework for thelisteners, if you would like
homework, is to go out and youknow, like we talked about, make
a change, do something to standagainst genocide, to stand
against the stuff that we areseeing right now.

Speaker 1 (01:14:35):
Get connected.
In every state, in every state,there is an organization.
There is an organization.
It can be very helpful at timesto take a look at what whatever
health care workers forpalestine, um doctors against
genocide, um animal health careworkers against genocide you can
find local community, of course, and then there are palestinian

(01:14:57):
led, like specificlong-standing palestinian led.
I'm in arizona, I'm part of thearizona palestinian solidarity
alliance and also through that,like, there are members that are
showing up for every community,right, and, if not, you know,
indigenous community.
If there's an indigenouscommunity um stronghold near you

(01:15:20):
, that um you can explore.
And, of course, like you, likewe always need to be also
looking out for, like um systemsof abuse, right, because
systems of abuse exist in everyspace.
But, like, don't don'tcompromise your values right

(01:15:41):
from humanist forward.
Don't compromise your valuesright From humanist forward, and
understand that there is somuch work to be done and you can
make a difference.
Each person can make a bigdifference, but we have to, and
by being in community, you caninspire other people.

Speaker 2 (01:16:05):
And I know, and the only thing I would add to that
too, is that I know for a lot ofpeople people it can be scary
speaking up.
So I don't want to minimizethat there's fear behind that,
but I think what, from all thestuff that erica was talking
about and all the stuff we knowabout history and all the stuff
that's going on right now, isthat not speaking up the end
result is going to be muchscarier down the road than it is
speaking up right now.
So just try to remember that itis scary, but, as Erica said,

(01:16:27):
there are communities out therethat can help people make stands
and you, you just have to dowhat's in your comfort level to
as long as you're doingsomething, so it doesn't have to
be moving mountains.
It just has to be that you werenot being complicit by being
silent and just watching it.
So, erica, as always, it's beena pleasure.

(01:16:53):
Should we tell like a funnystory or something to like wrap
up with?
Do you got any funny stories?

Speaker 1 (01:17:01):
I have one, you know.
I I have a lot to think of Um,you know, I, I think I'll.
I'll tell a story about mygrandmother.

Speaker 2 (01:17:17):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:17:21):
My grandmother, my German grandmother, who spoke a
language that is dying, adialect that is dying, okay, my
grandfather, who was a veteran,was abusive.
So I spent a lot of time withmy grandmother and I saw, and

(01:17:46):
that abuse came from being a warveteran, right, and I spent my
time as a child, um, like kindof being alongside her, shall we
say, and, um, you know, youcome to understand what it looks
like when someone is in theirthoughts and is revisiting

(01:18:11):
painful places, and there's alot of kind of sitting with.
And one of the most meaningfulmoments that she and I had
together, she had a stroke.
You know, when I, when I was incollege and I was, I had just

(01:18:37):
arrived, I basically was asleepand woke up to our neighbor, you
know, because I had jet lag andeverything and and she had been
brought to the hospital.
So we, and when she was finallyin recovery and doing okay and
had been stabilized, I and I wasvisiting her in the hospital

(01:18:57):
and we were just sitting and wewere looking out the window and
there were these beautifulflowers in the room and we sat
next to each other and we justhad this whole discussion about
how beautiful different colorsof flowers and and throughout my

(01:19:25):
life, blooming flowers havealways been my comfort when
sitting with death, to be honest, right, and those feelings, and
that also with flowers andtheir blooms, right, this
beautiful structure that youknow we'll laugh a little bit is
a sexual organ right Of a plant, right, and that has all these

(01:19:48):
cool biological functions.
And also it's like this, thisrhythm, the rhythm of nature,
right and from and many peoplewho come from war zones and
history, as far as, if you lookin the artist history of this
discussion, blood is a nutrient,bones are nutrients and in

(01:20:17):
areas where there have been themost violence, there are also
some of the most beautifulblooms that come from it.
Afterward, and that rhythm ofthe blooming of the flowers and
what we see when they produceseeds and they go back into the

(01:20:37):
ground and they emerge again,there's something to be said to
remind ourselves that life ispossible in some of the most
terrible places.
You just have to let it bloomand you just have to have faith
that at some point seeds will beable to grow again.

(01:20:58):
And focus on that, focus onplanting seeds and focus on that
.
Focus on planting seeds, bethey verbal, be they visual, be
they relationships Drop seeds.

Speaker 2 (01:21:20):
wherever you go to help people, help things bloom.
Well, that was very deep andhopeful, so now I don't want to
tell my story because it's funnythat was all you could do.

Speaker 1 (01:21:31):
We could pause a moment and then you can insert
it early because that was.

Speaker 2 (01:21:37):
I'm like I can't, like I can't go after that.
Come on, that was so my story.
I'll tell it really quickly.
It is really funny.
It's very light, I think, agood way to end the episode.
So when you were talkingearlier about your grandmother
and how she didn't wasteanything, right?
So my grandmother grew up inthe Depression.

(01:21:58):
It was the same thing.
She never wasted anything.
She would do this thing and Ithink a lot of people who had
grandparents could probablyrelate to this where she'd save
grease, like anything that shecooked with.
She would save it and she wouldreuse it to cook things with.
But my grandmother also used tomake me tapioca pudding all the
time, right?
So you know where this is going, right?
So there was one day I went inthe refrigerator and I saw this

(01:22:23):
big thing of what I thought wastapioca pudding.
So I was so excited and I gotthis big spoon and I took a huge
mouthful of grease you knowthey used to put um like lard on
spread, lard on butter spreadlard on butter.

Speaker 1 (01:22:46):
Yeah, wow, that was the thing that my dad grew up
with and apparently my it wassomething that my grandma used
to say stories about, uh, funnystories about my dad.

Speaker 2 (01:22:57):
Um, that he used to really like having his um bread
that had lard on it, um, to eatit with it upside down that's
really interesting, because Ithat must have been a thing too,
because I remember when mygrandfather would make like
peanut butter and jellysandwiches for me, he would
always put butter underneath thepeanut butter and I thought

(01:23:19):
that was weird.
There must be something to thatthen.
That's interesting.
So I I hope for everybody.
I know that was raw and wewanted it to be raw.
Um and um.
Again, thank you for listeningand please tell more people
about the podcast.
We uh, eric and I would love tohave more guest speakers.

(01:23:40):
Um, come on as well.
And, eric, I know you have afew lined up.
I have a few that I've reachedout to as well, but we want to
hear from the listeners too, soplease contact us.
All right, thank you everybody,and thank you again for

(01:24:17):
listening.
This is just a reminder that nopart of this podcast can be
duplicated or copied withoutwritten consent from either
myself or Wendy.
Thank, you again.