S 3 E: 2 Election disaster. When Political Fear Clouds Judgment

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Political fear and cognitive dissonance take center stage as we examine the unsettling political climate most likely resulting from a national/cumulative PTSD. Discover how fear tactics shape voter behavior and the troubling disconnects between domestic and international issues. We challenge each challenge each person to confront the cognitive dissonance in supporting policies that may contradict personal values, especially in the face of global conflicts and ethical dilemmas. The conversation highlights the frustration and helplessness that lead many to turn away from the polls, while also questioning the two-party system's effectiveness in serving the American people.

In a country increasingly divided, our focus shifts to the power of individual actions and community engagement in fostering positive change. Through personal stories and insightful reflections, we emphasize the importance of bridging ideological divides with dialogue and compassion. From attending local events to small gestures of kindness, we explore how these actions contribute to a more connected, empathetic society. Thank you to our guests, Mike and Cora, for sharing their experiences and insights, and to our listeners for joining us on this journey towards understanding and unity.

Special Guest Michael Thibeault 

Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!):
https://uppbeat.io/t/hartzmann/no-time-to-die
License code: S4CEQWLNQXVZUMU4

Artwork and logo design by Misty Rae.


Special thanks to Joanna Roux for editing help.
Special thanks to the listeners and all the wonderful people who helped listen to and provide feedback on the episode's prerelease.


Please feel free to email Matt topics or suggestions, questions or feedback.
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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:15):
This podcast is not intended to serve as therapeutic
advice or to replace anyprofessional treatment.
These opinions belong to us anddo not reflect any company or
agency.

Speaker 2 (00:27):
Hello everybody and welcome back to another episode
of the United States of PTSD.
So today we have Mike joiningus.
Who is you're going to get aguest like a sneak preview of
season four, because the planright now is for Mike to be the
co-host on season four.
So, mike, why don't you say hito everybody?

Speaker 3 (00:45):
Hey everybody, Thank you so much for having me, Matt.
It's a pleasure to be here.

Speaker 2 (00:49):
Excellent.
It's great to have you and Cora, you're back as well, because
you are the official co-host ofseason three.

Speaker 1 (00:55):
Thanks, matt, it's good to be here.

Speaker 2 (00:57):
So we have a difficult topic to talk about
today.
The election was obviously lastweek and we thought we would do
an episode about processingthat and what happened.
For those of you that have beenfollowing the podcast, about a
couple of months ago I had saidthat I was fairly certain Trump
was going to win and Harris wasgoing to lose, and there was a
lot of reasons for that.
So I do want to go over ourrationale behind that.

(01:19):
So it might be a difficultconversation for a lot of people
.
If this is not something youwant to listen to, this is
probably the episode to skip,because I do think we're going
to be pretty honest and rawabout some of the stuff that
happens.
And actually, before we startthat, one other reminder I want
to give everybody is that we areso close to a thousand
downloads in a month, and I wantto thank everybody who's been

(01:40):
actively following it.
If you could subscribe, shareit with other people and ask
other people to download it,that would be fantastic.
We are very close to gettingsponsors.
I'm super excited about this.
I want to thank all thelisteners who have been really
faithfully following, and wehave a new listener from Kenya,
which is freaking awesome.
So thank you for listening.

(02:01):
And the other thing I want toadd, too, is Cora and I have
talked about doing a giveaway atsome point.
I did just get tumblers madethat have the logo of the
podcast on it, so we will giveyou some more details about that
, but we're going to plan ondoing a giveaway in a couple of
weeks for that.
So that's all the kind ofhousekeeping stuff.
All right, do either one of youwant to talk about your

(02:24):
reactions to the election andthe outcome?

Speaker 3 (02:29):
Yeah, sure, I would love to speak on it.
I think we had talked prettyextensively running up to the
election you and I, matt, and wewere pretty much on the same
page.
I also expected that theoutcome would be a Trump victory
, and I think that's for avariety of reasons, but
unfortunately, one of thereasons that I'm not seeing
talked about too much is thatthis really is a failure of the
Democratic Party.

(02:49):
Having Biden on the ticket upuntil August, was it?
I believe, absolutely to thedetriment of the party, didn't
give Kamala too much time toactually establish herself in
the race and it completelyignored the actual democratic
process of a primary, which Ithink is pertinent to having
unity amongst the democraticvoters.
So I think that that's one ofthe biggest reasons.

(03:10):
I see that, unfortunately, thiswas a failure for the Kamala
Harris campaign.

Speaker 2 (03:16):
I couldn't agree with you more.
I mean I would use the wordepic.
I think it's an epic failure ofthe Democratic Party all around
with everything you said.
There are certainly otherfactors to that, which, as much
as everybody hates it, the threeof us definitely hate Trump.
I think we all agree on that.
That's something that we arenever going to disagree on, and
the large majority of the peopledon't like Trump.

(03:37):
But there's one thing you haveto give him is that he knows his
audience and he is a leader inthat sense.
That's the only sense he's aleader in.
But he is charismatic.
I don't see it.
I think he's a piece of garbage.
But there's lots of people outthere that do see him as
charismatic, and I had saidearlier in August, driving
through Connecticut, an hourdeeper into Connecticut and then

(03:58):
driving into Rhode Island, thatthere were just Trump signs
everywhere and there was a lackof Harris signs anywhere, which
was really reflective, I shouldsay reminiscent, of the Hillary
campaign, when people were like,oh, she's going to win, she's
going to win, but nobody wasshowing any excitement about her
winning nobody, and this wasvery reminiscent of that.
So I agree with you, I think itwas an epic failure on their

(04:19):
part, plus the lack of anyactual stance on anything.

Speaker 1 (04:23):
Plus the lack of any actual stance on anything.
That's actually one of theworst things that happened is
that Kamala took such amiddle-of-the-road kind of
stance on all the issues anddidn't speak out about things
that a lot of Democrats reallycare about.
She didn't differentiateherself enough from the Biden
administration.

Speaker 2 (04:41):
Well, not only did she not differentiate herself,
she said multiple times,especially early on, that she
was planning on doing nothingdifferent.
It wasn't until the 11th hourthat she was like oh wait, you
know, I'm going to do somethingdifferent.
There was also the lack ofpolicies on our campaign website
.
They didn't even go up, I think, until August or late September
.
I mean, before that it was justa merch store.

Speaker 3 (05:06):
Absolutely and to your point, cora.
I absolutely agree that takinga very centrist route in this
election, while it has beensuccessful in the past for you
know candidates such as I know,clinton is a famous example of
you know a Democrat running oncentrist policy for a successful
campaign.
But I think in this year, 2024,when there's a lot of desire
amongst American people forsocial and institutional change,

(05:28):
taking a centrist policydoesn't help when people are
looking for a different excuseme are looking for a different
alternative to status quo andthe current government
institutions.
I definitely think the base ofthe Democratic Party was kind of
abandoned in this election.

Speaker 2 (05:44):
Yeah, that's very well said, Mike, when you look
at it.
See, I am not, and I'll be veryupfront about this.
Politics is not.
I'm not an expert in politics.
I'm not like a politicalcommentator.
You could probably ask me allsorts of different questions
about the different branches ofthe government that I probably
wouldn't be answered.
But what I do know really wellis people.
I mean that's my whole job,that's all three of our jobs.

(06:04):
Right, it's like to payattention to people, listen to
what people are saying andunderstand what people are
saying, and I think that ismissed.
That was completely missed bythe Harris campaign and, let's
face it, I don't think eitherone of them were a win for the
country.
I mean, had she won, I think itwould just be just as bad.
So I mean, well, in differentways, I think there are certain

(06:25):
things that Trump are going todo worse, but one of the glaring
issues was the genocide and theconnection to the genocide and
the lack of distance from thator change.
You know there are certain.
What I do know is that there arecertain voters that are going
to vote party, no matter what.
So there's going to be peoplewho always vote Democrat, always

(06:49):
vote Republican and they neverchange their stance.
They're not the people whodecide an election, because
that's the same thing thathappens every year.
Who decides the election is allthe people in between, the
people who are not theextremists, and she was not
catering to anything that theywanted at all.
Yeah, I absolutely agree.

Speaker 3 (07:02):
I think specifically with the genocide.
I think that really, I thinkspecifically with the genocide.
I think that really becomesapparent when you look at the
difference in an amount ofvoters overall.
I believe that the DemocraticParty, compared to the 2020
election, lost around 14 millionvotes, whereas the Republican
Party lost about 3 million.
So when you look at, like,third party candidates who

(07:22):
honestly did not make anydifference at all in terms of
swing states or really any ofthe state elections, I think it
was really shown more just inthe amount of people who
abstained from voting this yearand, I think, couldn't identify
with either candidate.

Speaker 2 (07:35):
That's a mass.
How many was it?
For the Democrat Would you say14 million.

Speaker 3 (07:38):
I believe it was 14 million.

Speaker 2 (07:39):
Yeah, that's a massive amount of people that
just didn't vote.
You put up third party votersand I certainly voted for Jill
Stein because I couldn't votefor either one of them and part
of me is happy that they didn'tmake a dent, because of course,
we would be the first line toblame, like, oh, it's all you
people who voted for third party.
What's really interesting is ifyou look at the fallacies of

(08:00):
democracy.
All three of us grew up indifferent timeframes, but we all
grew up with the same messagethat voting is super imperative.
Right, like your vote matters.
Like, if you don't vote, you'renot doing your civic duty and
you just you need to vote.
It's super important, superimportant.
But then, when you don't agreewith the two party dichotomy,
suddenly you're throwing yourvote away.
Your vote doesn't matter.
Like, forget about it, don'tvote.
Well then, we don't live in ademocracy, like if that's what

(08:22):
people are thinking.
We don't live in one If we'regoing to be stuck with a two
party ticket who havefundamentally failed both of
them.
I mean, they are both as guilty.
Both sides are just notlistening to the people,
absolutely.

Speaker 1 (08:36):
Yeah, and I think that what you're saying
resonates with me in terms ofhow often we participate in
democracy.
Growing up, I was taught youhave to vote, but I was never,
ever taught that you have tovolunteer, that you have to make
phone calls, that you have tointeract with politicians on the
local level, and I think that'ssomething that, if we really

(08:58):
want change, people are going tohave to do, especially with
Trump as our president.

Speaker 2 (09:02):
Yeah, and I want to be very clear to everybody
listening, and I've said this toyou both independently I don't
blame voters at all.
I don't blame people who votedfor Trump.
I don't blame people who votedfor Harris.
I don't blame people who votedfor third party people.
I blame the government.
If the government wasn'tepically failing, we would have
a very different system, but wedon't.
We have a bunch of criminals,career criminals, who continue

(09:26):
to get in office.
I mean, we saw it locally rightin both our states, both in
rhode island and in connecticut.
It doesn't matter, because thesame person is always going to
win.
There's no choice.
And we, although we can easilyturn to the, to the president,
and say, like it's thepresident's fault for everything
, the president only has acertain amount of power and when
we have a corrupt senate, acorrupt House of Representatives
and a corrupt Supreme Court,that's a bigger issue.

(09:47):
But those people still keepwinning elections and if we
don't change that this is why Isaid no incumbent should win
Every single incumbent Democrat,republican have failed this
country.
I will stand by that.

Speaker 1 (10:02):
Well, I think globally the record stands.
One of the most interestingthings I keep reading about is
how almost every incumbentglobally on like a major level
was defeated.

Speaker 2 (10:15):
Wait, globally, you mean not in the United States.

Speaker 1 (10:17):
Not just in the United States.

Speaker 2 (10:19):
That they were defeated.

Speaker 1 (10:20):
Yeah, in developed countries it's basically.
The theory is that we came outof COVID and everybody was so
relieved.
So there was this period oftime where everybody was just
kind of recovering Right, andthen, as we're recovering,
inflation spikes everywhere andthen people say, oh crap, this

(10:41):
isn't working and I'm reallyunhappy right now.
It must be the politician who'shere right now.
The next time I can vote, I'mgoing to vote to get that person
out.

Speaker 2 (10:53):
That certainly didn't happen here, Because they're
all still in office.
I mean nothing changed.

Speaker 1 (11:00):
I think the article I was reading was from the
Financial Times and it wastalking about developing country
developed countries and justoverall, this was not the year
for incumbents.

Speaker 2 (11:12):
That's interesting.
Did they lose nationally inthis country?
I think so.
Did they really?
Okay, mike, what are yourthoughts on?

Speaker 3 (11:19):
that Fully.
To be honest, I'm not the mostinformed in terms of foreign
politics as it stands, with whorepresentatives are.
Who's been ousted from office.
I mean, it's evident when youlook at the Senate flipping to
the Republicans and potentiallythe House as well, although I
don't believe that's beenofficially decided yet.
Correct.

Speaker 1 (11:37):
Right.
So, it's pretty close.

Speaker 3 (11:41):
Yeah.
So I mean there's the potentialthat you know they control all
the big three, you know, theSenate, the House and the White
House, and I do think, whetheror not that's in a direction
that I agree with, theredefinitely has been a push for,
you know, change overall.

Speaker 1 (11:55):
Yeah, so I just looked it up and it looks like
what we were talking about interms of global incumbent
parties that were kicked out,was more of a general thing.
That was occurring on a globallevel, not on a national level.

Speaker 2 (12:09):
Right, which basically boils down to the old
expression if nothing changes,nothing changes, right.
Like we can't keep doing thesame thing over and over again
and expect it to be different.
That's the definition ofinsanity.
You know what I had said to thetwo of you earlier and I think
this is true.
True, if we bring it back toptsd right, there are two ways
that people have emotionalresponses.

(12:30):
And ptsd one is there's hypervigilance, where somebody is
really just they're reactingvery strongly to like stimulus.
So if something happens out ofthe corner of their eye, they
jump or somebody moves becausethey're in this constant state
of like fight or flight.
Then you have the other side ofthat, which is what, the
emotional numbing.
When people are just likehopeless, helpless, they just

(12:51):
kind of give up and they don'trespond to anything.
Now, if, again, if we look atthe country because I do think
we have created a culture ofPTSD in this country, not we as
the people, but the governmentthat we have If you were to sign
a contract under threat oflosing something losing your
family, losing your rights,losing your citizenship, losing

(13:11):
your job, losing whatever andthen that's taken to court, it
would be thrown out because thecontract would be considered
signed under duress, which wouldmake it not valid.
The whole country votes underduress.
Every single person is in astate of terror, whether you're
on the Republican side or theDemocratic side.
There's this fundamental fearthat something is going to be

(13:32):
robbed from you and taken away.
I mean, I've talked to peoplethis week who truly believe that
they're going to be hidingpeople in their basement because
it's going to turn into thisGestapo holocaust.
What's interesting is that theydon't seem to care that it's
actually happening somewhereelse.
I've heard a lot of people saythis week they've quoted that I

(13:52):
don't remember this expression,but it's something like you
stayed silent when they came forthem.
You stayed silent when theycame for these people.
Now who's going to help whenthey come for you?
Really interesting hearingthose same people ignoring
genocide in Palestine andpretending that it's not
happening and how it's extendingfurther into different
countries and they're still justignoring it.
I don't know.
It just seems like a verystrong level of cognitive

(14:14):
dissonance.
What are the two of you think?
I completely agree, oh sorry, Icompletely agree.

Speaker 3 (14:21):
I think I first want to address the the original
point you made that you knoweverybody is voting under duress
in this country.
That's very evident simply inthe fact that Trump has such a
strong base.
He is a fear mongerer and heworks very well under the ideas
that we are all under threat byimmigrants.
You know illegal immigrantswhether it's attacking your
personal values or economically,being the cause of our

(14:45):
financial strain, and I thinkthat all of us voting under fear
will never result in an outcomethat is anything more than a
continuation of status quo.
But to that point, I also thinkto your point about the
genocide.
I think that a lot of peoplehave been very dismissive of
anyone who attempted to pointout the ethical dilemma of

(15:06):
voting for Kamala when she isendorsing and aiding abetting a
genocide.
It's entirely logical and moralto question that vote, but it
seemed to not really have anycredit in any mainstream
discussions.

Speaker 2 (15:18):
Well, they didn't allow it to because, I mean, as
we know, APEC controls ourpoliticians.
I mean, hands down, theycontrol all of the Senate and
they control a large majority ofthe House.
They control presidentialcandidates.
I mean, we know this, Cora.
Did you want to add to that?
Because I think you were goingto say something.

Speaker 1 (15:33):
Yeah.
So I have a poll from theHarvard Public Opinion Poll.
It's from the Harvard Instituteof Politics and this was from
2018.
And they reported that 18 to 29year olds 64% of them had more

(15:54):
fear than hope about theAmerican democracy.
So even though it's relativelyan older poll, I think it shows
that even in 2018, young peoplewere already feeling a lot of
fear.
And then, two years later, thepandemic hits and it just the
rhetoric ramps everybody up andI do think, because of the
pandemic, people are still inthis like state of fear and
state of cognitive dissonancewhere they just feel like they

(16:16):
can't act, like it's too big ofa problem so they're just
shutting down.

Speaker 3 (16:20):
I totally agree, and you know not to feed a fed horse
, so to speak, but I thinkthat's very evident just in the
amount of people who did abstainfrom voting this year.
There are a lot of people whoare tired of the same game over
and over, election afterelection, and, as a result,
people have given up, they'velost their faith, they've lost
hope and have abstained entirely, kind of, you know, submitting
to the systems at play.

Speaker 2 (16:41):
Both of those are really great points.
It's also it's anothertestament to PTSD.
I mean, think about how manypeople that you've heard say
that when you ask them whatthey're doing to affect change,
like have you called your, youknow your senator, have you
called your congressman orwhatever, and the response is no
, it's just too much to dealwith.
I just ignore it.
I hear that more often than Ihear people actually being

(17:02):
involved.
So, and again, I am not blamingvoters, because I do think,
systematically, we have all beencompletely traumatized and that
this is, this is all by design,right.
So it's to keep us divided, tokeep us fighting amongst
ourselves, and that's it's.
It's really easy to controlpeople that way.
Mike, you had brought up, youhad said you know Trump fear
mongers.
I think the democratic partyfear mongers too.

(17:24):
I think the Democratic Partyfearmongers too.
I think they do the exact samething.
I mean, if, if human rightswere so important to them, why
are we still fighting the samebattles we do every single
freaking election?
Because that's the only thingthey run under.
I think.
If they, if they didn't havethat to run under, what would
their whole campaign be about?

Speaker 3 (17:38):
you're absolutely right and I'm glad you pointed
that out.
I think one glaring example isthe fact that Roe v Wade was
overturned in 2022 under theBiden administration, and the
Democratic Party had nearly 50years to codify that.
But here we are with now itbeing a excuse me, with it now
being a state issue where somefolks do not have the right to

(18:00):
abortion.
By having that on the ticketevery single year with the
threat of losing that, it'sanother ticket for, rather,
another platform on which forDemocrats to abortion.
By having that on the ticketevery single year with the
threat of losing that, it'sanother ticket for, or rather,
another platform on which forDemocrats to run.

Speaker 2 (18:10):
Well said.
That is incredibly well said.
That's exactly what I wastalking about.
And again, when we blamepresidents, when we say like,
okay, roe versus Wade gotoverturned, you know Trump is
this awful person.
And again, I'm not defendingTrump.
I hate the guy.
So don't hear any of this asdefending.
I'm just looking at the realityof it.

(18:30):
Is that the reality?
Is it got kicked to statelevels, so state by state.
So if we take the most backwardstate we can think of, like
Florida and Texas, right, whyare they electing the same
officials then?
Because it's the officials intheir state that are now
responsible, but they keepelecting the same people over
and over again.
And then they're blaming thepresident Well, at this point,
you can't do that anymorebecause it doesn't fall into the

(18:50):
presidency but then votedifferently, like if that's,
stop voting the same people inoffice over and over and over
again, because, you're right,mike, they've had 50 years to
codify it and they don't,because they want to continue to
run on fear.
They both do it Like one sideis no better than the other.

Speaker 1 (19:04):
And I think another thing we have to think about is
the role that social media playswith fear mongering.
Like we're in unchartedterritory when it comes to the
way media is covering things,the way people are accessing
news.
Just finding credible sourcescan be really difficult.

Speaker 2 (19:20):
Yeah, which is true.
I mean, propaganda has beenaround forever.
I mean, when we saw theColosseum in Rome, they talked
about how the Colosseum wasreally the ancient version of
social media and how they usethat to control people and

(19:41):
spread itself over and over andover again.
Social media has made it more.
It's more far reaching than itwas before and, especially with
like AI and all of that stuff,you know it's getting harder to
tell what's true.
I always listen to the people.
I don't listen to what I see on, like when COVID was happening,
I didn't listen to what I washearing on social media.

(20:03):
I listened to what the nursesand doctors were saying that
worked in hospitals because theyhad exposure to it.
So, you know, you have allthese people talking about how
fake it is and I'm like really,because I'm having conversations
with nurses and doctors whowere talking about people dying
and them having to make thedecision between who's living
and who's dying.
That's the real stuff and it'sreminiscent of the last episode
we did, cora, about Mercy Brownand how people just don't listen

(20:25):
to experts.
They'd much rather listen toconspiracy theories, and
conspiracy theories are areligion on their own right.
So people are always lookingfor something greater than the
truth.

Speaker 1 (20:35):
And I also think we've become such an
individualistic society andpeople have become so much more
isolated.
It's so much easier to turn on,you know whatever you're
listening to and just tune outpeople in your life, and I think
that's actually where I want tooffer a little bit of hope.
So much this week I've beenhearing about feelings of

(20:59):
despair and sadness and angerand divisiveness, but I think
that if we can start buildingrelationships with real people
in real life and start havingharder conversations that you
know, we have a chance to moveforward.

Speaker 3 (21:14):
I absolutely agree, and you know one thing that I
kind of wanted to bring up thatI had been seeing on social
media over the past week Inoticed a lot of animosity
coming from the left and peoplewho had voted for common, you
know, understandably, so this isa very painful loss, I think,
of an election, uh.
However, I've even seen, youknow, discourse about if you
know people who, like Latinos,who voted for Trump, and you

(21:37):
know that they have undocumentedfamily in this country, to
report them to ICE.
And I think we really need tokeep and I know it and I think
we really need to keep in mindwhat our actual values are and
not make this into a competitionof spite and simply being right
for the sake of being right,rather not compromising on the
things that we truly care aboutand what means most to us.

(21:57):
We need to really work hard tobridge gaps and draw
understanding on each other'sperspectives whether or not we
agree with that but to figureout how to move forward with it,
God.

Speaker 2 (22:06):
both of you had things that I wanted to comment
on, so let's just stick withthat one and we'll go back to
Corey, what you said aboutcommunity.
I have been seeing the samething.
I didn't see that, Mike, but Isaw people talking about, if you
know, people who voted forTrump.
Defriend them, get rid of them.
We're not going to stand forhomophobia, racism, all this
stuff.
It sounds like a really badidea to and I'm guilty of this

(22:30):
because when Trump won the firsttime, I was certainly one of
those people posting things onsocial media about how awfully
was and you know how dare youvote for him.
But the reality is, is that'show you isolate people even more
?
Is that we become more divided?
Instead of saying like, okay,please explain to me, like, what
you're afraid of, like why youvoted for him.
I want to know, not so that wecan.

(22:51):
I mean, we can't help people ifwe don't understand them, just
like they need to be able tounderstand us.
I mean, it's going to be a giveand take relationship Like, OK,
I'll help you with this if youhelp me with that, instead of
like, let's cut everybody offbecause that just it.
It goes right back to isolation.
And again, I don't think it'sthe voters fault.
I think all the voters arevoting under fear and duress and

(23:13):
we can't take that away fromthem.
That's the truth.

Speaker 3 (23:15):
Yeah, I think that's very well said, matt.
I don't think it's opportune atall, like you said, to be
isolated, both whether it'sphysically or in your belief
system.
This is such an imperative timefor us to really question our
own beliefs and try tounderstand why we are thinking
the way we do, where there isroom for change, what we are
willing to compromise on, whatwe are not, and with that, you

(23:38):
know, to really stand strong byyour ethics and your values and
figure out where thosecommonalities are, because I
think that's truly one of thecommon points amongst Americans,
even if we disagree on what theright mechanisms are to get
there from a governmentalstandpoint.

Speaker 1 (23:52):
Absolutely, mike, and I think what you said is just
so important in terms ofcognitive dissonance.
The tools that we use to facecognitive dissonance is to
actually look at where ourbeliefs are meeting something
that's incongruent, that's likeoccurring in real life.
You know, we believe something,something actually happens

(24:13):
that's different, and then webecome so kind of wrapped up in
our own mental pain that we pushit away and we say, okay, I
can't look at this.
But the way through that is toactually just take a look at
what is causing the pain and beable to express that and
understand like does that a lotactually align with my values?

(24:33):
Is that really different thanmy core beliefs actually align
with my values?
Is that really different thanmy core beliefs?
And a lot of times when youstart looking at that like real
cause of suffering, there's waysout that you didn't see.
But just pushing it away isn'tgoing to work.

Speaker 2 (24:47):
Yeah, that's a really good point as well, Cora.
And when you bring up cognitivedissonance, again bringing it
back to the genocide that'shappening right now, this is the
place that I saw it the most.
I had a conversation withsomebody this week who was mind
blown that Harris didn't win andI said, well, when you look at
what was happening I mean almostall of her rallies had

(25:10):
protesters all protesting thesame thing.
There were countlessorganizations, from like Code
Pink to the Abandoned Harriscampaign, to Muslim Americans
that were saying we will nevervote for you if you do not
change your stance on genocide.
The fact that there were MuslimAmericans who were more willing
to vote for somebody initiatinga Muslim ban should have said

(25:31):
something.
That should have been a veryloud, clear message to her her
to harris and she ignored it.
I mean time and time again shejust said I hear you, I see you,
shut up, I'm speaking.
I mean she just said that indifferent ways and she made no
attempt to change that.
So when I'm having thisconversation with somebody and
they're talking about you knowhow people are going to lose

(25:51):
their rights in this country iftrump wins and like how, how can
people vote against humanrights and you know how can they
.
How can you vote against yourfellow person?
And if you're, you know, ifyou're a Christian and if you
believe all this stuff, then youshould be voting for humanity.
And then I said what about thewomen and children in Gaza that
are being slaughtered en masse?
Like what about them?

(26:11):
And the response was literallywell, if you're going to nitpick
everything, I mean you'recertainly not going to make
everybody happy, Like somethings you just have to let go
of.
That is a classic example ofcognitive dissonance and just
hypocrisy.
Like you're over here talkingabout the value of human life
and how important it is, Justadmit you don't care about the
people in the house and justadmit to you they are not real

(26:32):
people.
Just admit that.
Don't create this wholescenario about how, like I'm
nitpicking and all this otherstuff, so many people were doing
that here.
It's disheartening that there'speople that were just willing
to throw their lives away and wedon't care.
That's that's a huge problem Itotally, completely agree.

Speaker 3 (26:51):
I think it's it's been kind of amazing uh not in a
good sense to see the mentalgymnastics that that people are
going through in order tojustify supporting a genocide.
The narrative around voting forTrump versus Kamala has been
you know, do you really want tovote against humanity, against
common good, against humanrights?
And, like you said, I thinkit's very telling of how you

(27:15):
view the people of Palestine ifyou don't believe that their
right to life and simpleexistence is counted in your
values of what is human rightsand what is humanity.
It's really been unfortunate tosee how many people have been
willing to compromise on thosevalues and exist with that
cognitive dissonance in order tojustify their own emotional

(27:36):
ploys towards our politics.

Speaker 2 (27:38):
Mike really well said .
You know what I would say, andI'm not just saying this now,
retrospectively, because I'vebeen very clear about my stance
on this for months and months,and months, and months and
months.
Actually, since probably thegenocide started, I've been very
clear about it.
If somebody came to me and saidyou're either going to lose all
your rights or we're going tokill millions of people over
here, I would say then take myrights.
And again, I'm not advocatingto lose rights, but I'm just

(28:07):
saying the fact that so manypeople are willing to overlook
that at the expense of killingpeople, torturing people and
doing all sorts of acts againsthumanity, while then claiming to
be fighting for humanity.
It just it's mind blowing.

Speaker 3 (28:18):
I totally agree, I just want to comment.

Speaker 1 (28:20):
You know, like Mike and I both are just shaking our
heads like completely.
You know, we just agree withyou, matt and I.
I feel really disheartened, Ifeel really upset that there
isn't more of a reaction.

Speaker 2 (28:34):
It's out of mind, out of sight, and you know it's
very reflective of any genocide.
I mean, again, look at WorldWar II, the Holocaust that
happened there.
How many times, like?
The church turned its eye for avery long time, countries
turned their eyes on it,neighborhoods turned their eyes
on it, they pretended it wasn'thappening, and then, when it
finally comes out, they're alllike, oh my God, how did this
happen?
Well, this is exactly how ithappens, like you just ignore it

(28:55):
and then it there it is.
Meanwhile and I'm not and I'mnot dismissing people's fears
hearing these same peopletalking about hiding people in
their basement because if theydon't, they're going to be
killed.
Well, what about the peoplethat are being shot with sniper
rifles in churches?
What about the babies and andkids that are being used as
target practice?
What about them?
Do they not matter?

Speaker 3 (29:14):
I absolutely agree.
I think I'm sorry.

Speaker 2 (29:18):
Sorry, my cat was meowing in the background for
some bizarre reason.
She's so weird.

Speaker 3 (29:26):
I apologize, but I want to point out too.
I mean even from a historicalperspective, going back to the
idea of cognitive dissonance.
I mean we jumped into World WarII as a country pretty late in
the war and at the same time wehad concentration camps in our
own country for JapaneseAmericans.

Speaker 2 (29:41):
Absolutely, 100%, absolutely.
I mean again, you see it playout time and time again and
people just it's like mindblowing.
But if we go back to Harris,right, like so, if we look at
the stuff that we've alreadytalked about, this is why she
lost.
So you had a whole group ofpeople who I mean we're talking
like thousands and thousands ofpeople who would not vote for
her because of her stance ongenocide.

(30:02):
Then, if you look at theeconomic point of it, so people
are saying I know people weremaking fun of it oh, you voted
for, like, grocery prices andyou voted for, like you know, to
lower things in the economy.
Maslow's hierarchy of needs Ifyou don't have your basic needs
met food, shelter, clothing youcertainly cannot be working on

(30:23):
self-actualization andrelationships.
So she's ignoring the peoplewho are poor and struggling.
She's ignoring the people whoare saying stop the genocide.
She's ignoring that Again, like, what did she expect?
What did anybody expect wasgoing to happen from this?
You can't blame people forvoting for their, for survival.

Speaker 3 (30:44):
Exactly.
I think it's very evident inthe demographics of voters and
how they voted.
In this election the DemocraticParty has really lost the
support of the average workingclass person.
That has shifted prettystrongly to the right wing and I
think that is because of whatyou just said.
The Democratic Party hasshifted away from the
fundamental value on our basicneeds resolved, instead to focus

(31:08):
on these other issues thatreally don't affect the average
person day to day.

Speaker 2 (31:12):
Cora.
What are your thoughts?

Speaker 1 (31:13):
Yeah, sorry, I'm trying to think of.
It's just a lot to think about.
I, you know, as a Democrat, Iwasn't all in for Harris.
I like I felt that in my heart,you know, like I wasn't excited
I didn't know very many peoplewho were excited you see such a
disparity between, like,educated people and higher up

(31:35):
educated people.
I know that that had a play inthe voting this year.
It just feels like what I don'tunderstand, though, with Trump
and everything is just howworking class people believe
he's going to like, be in favorof them and help them Like I.
Just that doesn't make anysense to me at all.
You know, looking at some ofTrump's tax policy, so one of

(31:57):
the things he's been talkingabout on the campaign trail was
getting rid of the tax for tips,right, and that would actually
end.
So it's tips, it's socialsecurity earnings, and there was
one other.
But what they were saying isthat he's actually looking to do
that, possibly so that peoplelike hedge fund directors can

(32:19):
reallocate some of their fundsand call it tips, and so they
don't have to pay taxes on theirtips.
So the people that this policywould actually really help is
people who don't need help,right, it's things like that.
I just don't understand how wecould trust Trump to make
changes for the working class.

Speaker 3 (32:40):
I mean on a personal level, I totally agree with you.
I think it's a facade, but Iguess, from trying to understand
the perspective of the averageperson who did vote for him with
the belief that he would createa better economic circumstance,
from what you just said, I mean, it sounds like Trojan horse
kind of policy, you know, policythat is fronted as something
that will benefit the averageperson, like like a someone who

(33:00):
survives on tip wages and, andyou know, relies on on that
money.
So it sounds like you'regetting extra wages, or rather
less tax on those wages, but,like you just said, instead is
actually just a front for formore corporate tax cuts, which I
believe he also.
In the research that youprovided in your email, cora, I
think it was also noted that hewill be cutting corporate tax

(33:21):
rates from 21 down to 15%, whichof course he did not focus on
at all during his campaign,because why would he?

Speaker 2 (33:28):
Cora, I hear what you're saying about like you
don't understand how peoplewould vote for him.
I think the fallacy in this isthat the Democratic Party is any
better for people.

Speaker 1 (33:35):
Well, I agree with you.
Matt, like I do, I don'tbelieve Trump more.
Does that make sense?

Speaker 2 (33:40):
They're all liars.

Speaker 1 (33:42):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (33:43):
And I go back to what I said at the very beginning of
the episode.
They all have fundamentallyfailed the American people.
They continue, they don't workfor us either side and I think
more people start to realizethat and accept us.
There is no better choice.
They both represent specialinterest groups.
They are both owned by aforeign government.
You know that is not going tochange.
Depending on whether it's ablue jacket or a red jacket, I

(34:06):
mean that's just going to be thesame.
I mean, our healthcare system isfalling apart.
It's been falling apart foryears and that started under the
Obama administration, evenprobably before that.
The education system is fallingapart.
The legal system's fallingapart.
The infrastructure of thiscountry is falling apart.
The middle class is fallingapart, like everything is
falling apart.
That has happened under bothRepublican and Democrat
presidents and it's just it'scontinuing to get worse and that

(34:30):
I think we're trying to.
We're trying to take somethingthat doesn't make any sense and
we're trying to figure out likea good solution behind it, like
why people voted for trump, whypeople voted for her, why people
didn't vote, why people votedfor jill stein.
The reality is is it's, it's a.

Speaker 3 (34:45):
It doesn't make any sense because it's nonsensical
right, yeah, that's true I alsodo want to add I mean back to
your point of maslow's hierarchymatt I think when people's
basic needs are not being met orare at extreme risk, then that
also heightens the fear thatpeople live in and exist in.
And with that, although on apolicy level, trump really does

(35:06):
not represent any sort ofsystematic change, his actual
presentation socially, hedoesn't behave like any other
politician, he doesn't speaklike any other politician
because he isn't one.
And I think, whether or notthat actually means anything to
the outcome on people's liveswhich it will probably not in

(35:27):
the way they expect, but whetheror not it does, I think that
stark difference is stillrepresentative of more change
than a continuation of thestatus quo under someone like
Kamala Harris.
And with all this discussion, Ialso really want want to note,
because I don't want to dismissthe fact that kamala harris is a
black woman and I do think thatabsolutely plays a part in the
lack of support that shereceives.
Uh, and and specifically withthe, the questioning to her

(35:48):
qualifications and her abilityto be in office, um, kind of
resulted I I do think thescrutiny that she was under
during her campaign wasmassively out of proportion to
any scrutiny that Trump hasfaced, not to mention the fact
that the both times he has wonhas been against women, whereas
he, you know, only lost to Biden, a white man.
So I do think that's veryrelevant and I want that to be a

(36:12):
part of this discussion.

Speaker 2 (36:13):
I 100% agree with you and this goes back to why I
think the Democratic Partyfailed, because the country I
don't care who wants to denythis, the country is
fundamentally sexist and racist,fundamentally right and you can
claim it isn't, but it is.
Now we add what you just saidinto the mix of everything else

(36:35):
where she wasn't listening tothe people, I mean it was really
a disaster for failure, 100%disaster.
She should have been absolutely.
The Democratic Party, not justher should have been more
cognizant of that as a barrierso that they would have listened
to the people that were beggingher to listen to her.
I truly believe if she had saidwe're ending the genocide, she

(37:00):
would have won hands down.
I think she would.
But again, I'm not discreditingthat, that didn't play into it.
I think it did no, absolutely.

Speaker 3 (37:06):
I think I sometimes do wonder if, if the genocide
because I mean for me it a very,very important factor in my
vote, which I guess I will beforthcoming and say that I did
vote for Jill Stein in thiselection because of that.
But I think when you look atlike, well, I mean I don't know

(37:27):
because, I mean I apologize I'mkind of fumbling on my words
here, kind of thinking out loud,but I sometimes question if the
genocide was as big of an issueto the average voter as it was
to people like us who, you know,we are social workers, we're
driven by the core values ofsocial work and I think those
things are very, very importantto us.
And sometimes I question if theaverage person isn't so much

(37:49):
detached from the genocide inGaza and of Palestinians.
But I'd love to know yourthoughts on that.

Speaker 2 (37:55):
That's interesting.
I think it's multifaceted,right.
So certainly, I do think theaverage person it probably, and
I've had.
I mean, you think about howmany people I talk to a week.
I mean, I talk to hundreds ofpeople every week, right between
, like, clients and students andlike you know all that stuff.
So I get lots of differentperspectives and I do think that
the average person probably wasnot as upset about it, even

(38:20):
though they should be, becausethat's all our tax dollars, I
mean billions of our tax dollars, have gone to fund this.
Instead of doing things like,oh, I don't know, funding the
South after hurricanes, fundthis.
Instead of doing things like,oh, I don't know, funding the
South after hurricanes, ourmoney did not go there.
I do think you'reunderestimating the size of the
Muslim community, the collegecampuses I mean how many college

(38:44):
campuses were protestinggenocide across this country?
Lots, lots of them.
And you know, of course,they're being labeled as
terrorists because they'reactually, oh, I don't know
trying to stop a genocide.
You know you have all of thosegroups of people who made a huge
, huge number that were beggingher stop this and we will vote
for you.
And she said no.

Speaker 1 (39:02):
And you know personally.

Speaker 2 (39:03):
I don't know if that's her own lack of moral
compass, I don't know if it'sthe puppet strings, you know
behind her pulling the string,saying like you can't, you can't
say this.
But I will tell you.
With the minute she turned tothose people and said shut up,
I'm speaking.
I was never voting for becausethat was fundamentally not only
unempathetic, it was justdownright evil.

(39:23):
I mean it was no different thananything Trump has ever said.
It was just in a prettierpackage.
But I mean it was really justlike shut up, I don't care what
you think.
Okay, then don't be surprisedwhen you don't win.
Like again, what was shethinking?

Speaker 3 (39:36):
Yeah, yeah, that is a very, very good point.
And to the example that youbrought up of college campuses
and how protesters were treated,you know, called terrorists, we
have to, I guess, guess,remember that it was a a biden
administration's government or aleft-wing government that sent
them, or sent in the nationalguard to tear gas these students
from college campuses.

(39:57):
So I absolutely, I absolutelyagree with you.

Speaker 2 (40:01):
Actually, I'm glad that you brought up those points
and unrelated, but think about,and, and I get the I get the
draw to the republican stanceabout like less government
involvement, because think about, and I get the I get the draw
to the Republican stance aboutlike less government involvement
, because think about what justhappened.
Are any of you familiar withthe whole peanut story, the
squirrel?
Yes, I mean that just happenedin New York.
Oh, corey, you're not.
So this, there was a, there wasan influencer, and actually I
think he's from Connecticut,cause I remember when I first

(40:22):
followed him he was inConnecticut and I he.
So he had Peanut the Squirrel,which was like this internet
sensation where he did all thesevideos that the squirrel was
like a rescue.
And then the guy startedrescuing other animals and I
personally I stopped followinghim because I actually thought
he was kind of a jerk with someof his responses to people.
But outside of that, in termsof like what he was doing for

(40:43):
animals, it was fantastic.
And somebody accused him of thesquirrel biting them and like a
raccoon.
So I don't know like cops wentto the house and like seize,
seize the raccoon, seize the thesquirrel, and they were killed
to test them for rabies, likelike talk about overreaching

(41:05):
government, like seriously.
So I think he's suing the state,as he should, and I hope he
wins, because it was just themost ridiculous thing ever.
I mean, these were animals thatwere indoor animals, they
didn't go outside, they werevery well cared for.
I mean, he had been documentingit for like like years.
I think it's just awful,absolutely awful.
But yeah, you're right, it wasthe Biden Harris administration

(41:27):
that was tear, gassing studentsand then saying, hey, please,
vote for us.
Like you should totally votefor us, as we're gassing you and
like arresting you.
Yeah, vote for us.
Politicians are so far removedfrom the average person.
If they really want to win,they need to have I don't know
mental health experts tellingthem, like what to do, because
clearly they are so far removedfrom the average voter.

Speaker 3 (41:49):
Absolutely yeah, and I think it also shows just the
amount of young people who aremoving further to the right.
You know, I mean, I believe.
Oh, I apologize, I'm not goingto be able to remember where
this poll came out of, but therewas a poll showing that, as it
stands, majority of voters 18 to24 are right wing, and I don't
think that that's a reflectionof the values of these people or

(42:12):
, like you said, to blame thevoter, but I think rather it is
a reflection of the lack of hopethat people have in left wing
policy and left wing leaders.

Speaker 2 (42:20):
And interestingly enough, I have one of my
Palestinian friends who's beento a lot of rallies, has said to
me that some of the people thatwere the nastiest to them and
the worst of them were Democrats.

Speaker 1 (42:33):
Which is just really unfortunate yeah.

Speaker 2 (42:35):
I mean it is.

Speaker 3 (42:37):
I mean we have to change that though 100 percent
and back to the point of unity.
As much as I have a lot ofthoughts on the missteps of the
Democratic Party and ways thatwe need to change, I want to
bring it back to the point ofunity that Cora had talked about
earlier, where this is such animperative time to really

(42:57):
evaluate those flaws andunderstand how to move forward
with them, Whether it's I mean,in my opinion, I don't think we
should be moving more centrist,but getting back to our
progressive base and reallyconnecting with voters on making
social and economic change forpeople, rather than continuing
the status quo.

Speaker 2 (43:14):
Cora, I think you were going to ask.

Speaker 1 (43:16):
No, I was just going to ask that's going to be kind
of my next focus for myself.
It's not only educating myselfand educating people that I know
, but starting to take action.
So are there things that eitherone of you are doing that you
feel excited about or feelinterested in?

Speaker 2 (43:36):
I think excited is a strong word.
I don't know if I feel excitedabout it.
I think I've learned from 2020,as I said to the two of you
before on this podcast.
You know, growing up in the 80sunder the constant threat of
nuclear war and like living inthis constant state of hyper

(43:56):
arousal and you know just terrorand then going through it in
2020 when Trump was elected.
I choose not to do that anymore.
So, like the night of theelection, I didn't even watch it
, I just lived my life like Iwould normally live.
I just I did work, I playedvideo games, I pet the cats, I
made dinner and I said you know,I'll wake up in the morning and
I'll see what happens, but Iknew what was going to happen.
So you know, I really wasn'tall that invested.

(44:16):
I refused to let myself panicevery single day.
I did that for four years.
Like I'm not.
I'm not actually did more thanfour years.
I'm not going to start havingmore.
I mean, some of my, some of theclosest people in my family,
voted for Trump.
I love them.
I'm not going to cut them offbecause I don't agree with them
and I know personally why theydid it and you know it has

(44:38):
nothing to do with my rights asa gay man.
I mean, they are not certainlyabout taking away my rights.
I know they're not.
And, again, I'm not going tolive under that fear that both
sides have created thedemocratic party created that
the republican party created.
What I want to do is I'm goingto continue to, to educate
people also.
I want to be educated.
So I want to know, like whatdecide that I would not normally
vote with.
What can I do to help you?

(44:58):
You know like what?
Okay, so you want?
I'm just making something offthe top of my head like you're
like your gun rights are superimportant to you, okay, cool.
Like how can I help you withthat?
If you help me with this, ifyou help me with LGBT issues or
women's reproductive issues?
How do we compromise so that Ican help you but you can help me
?
I think we need to do more ofthat and less of this.
You don't understand me,because both sides are very,

(45:21):
very visceral.
Both sides will point thefinger at the other side and say
you need to accept everythingI'm telling you and you better
not disagree with me.
I'm never speaking to you again.
Yeah, cause that's superproductive.

Speaker 1 (45:33):
So I don't know if I I don't know if I have an answer
for you, Cora.
No, I think that's a greatanswer, Matt.
I think having discussions andeducation are crucial for moving
forward.
I also think not panicking iscrucial.
Every once in a while I've beenseeing like posts about
sticking your head back underfor the next four years, Like
you can't do that, you justcan't Devastated.
But I got to go on because Icare.

(45:55):
I have to admit I almost didn'tcome on the podcast today
because I had like a toughweekend and I was talking to
Matt about just how hopeless Ican feel at sometimes, you know,
and that's like a really hardemotion for me to feel.
But again, if I look at wherethat hopelessness or that fear
is coming from, it helps meunderstand what do I care about

(46:18):
the most.
And what do I care about themost is my kids, is the earth,
is people being kind and lovingone another.
You know, those are all thingsworth fighting for, and so you
just have to get up and startagain, you know.

Speaker 3 (46:33):
Beautifully said Cora .
I couldn't agree more.

Speaker 2 (46:35):
Mike, is there anything that you would add in
terms of what you think would behelpful to make change?

Speaker 3 (46:40):
Well, I definitely agree with you know, the points
that you made, matt that we doneed to start understanding what
we all value most and how tohelp everybody achieve the
things that they do care about,or hold on to the things that
they care about, where we'relike.
I had, you know, mentionedearlier what we're willing to
compromise on and and what wearen't.
I think one thing for me thatthat really has become, I guess,

(47:01):
more evident to me is that,like you had said, it's not
worth stressing and and reallyfalling into this place of
despair over, because, truly, weare only individuals and, as
much as we do have collectivepower, we have to take care of
ourselves.
And I think this kind of thingdoes make me more driven to look
at community issues andcommunities that I can have an

(47:22):
impact on at a more local level,because, ultimately, as much as
we would love to have our ownthoughts implemented on a
federal level, everybody thinksthat they could do it.
I really think it's mostimportant to have our own
communities hear our voices andto make others in our community
heard, and let that be whatguides us through, you know,

(47:43):
whether it's the next four yearsor indefinitely through the
future.

Speaker 2 (47:46):
It's a great idea and , cora, thank you for being
vulnerable about that too andtalking about how difficult it
was for you to come on, because,again, I think a lot of people
are really struggling with this.
When you bring up hope, hope isreally important, but there's
also false hope.
You know, if you're tellingsomebody, when you know, darn
well, it's never gonna change,to have hope, then you're
actually setting them up forfailure, actually setting them

(48:07):
up for failure.
Hope is a great thing becauseit can certainly help people get
better in lots of differentscenarios, but there needs to be
action behind hope.
It can't just be this likeblind, oh, I hope things get
better.
Let me go stick my head in thesand Like it can't be that.
It has to be.
I'm hopeful that I can make somechanges and I'm going to do it,
even if it's just you changeone person, because we are our
best assets.

(48:28):
Think about how much the two ofyou have to offer individually.
You guys have lots to offer,right?
So, like you, you could behaving a conversation with
somebody on the street and I cansee either one of you like
changing their life permanentlyjust by like saying one or two
things.
I mean we do have that abilityto do that.
We don't always recognize thatand we want to go towards, like
huge changes right, like if Ididn't change a thousand people

(48:50):
today, I didn't matter.
Right, and that's notnecessarily true it's a very
good point.

Speaker 3 (48:55):
I completely agree.
Kind of tying it back to anearlier point that you had
brought up, core, like in theage of social media, I think
sometimes, when you see thelarge impact that so many people
do have uh, whether it's likecontent creators, political
advocates or just people ingeneral online sometimes our
voices can feel very, very smalland I think it's important to

(49:16):
remember the value that each ofus do have, whether it's the
impact that we can have onothers or a community.
I think it's important for usto not feel powerless when the
outcome that we had hoped forisn't our reality.

Speaker 1 (49:31):
Right, yeah, and I think also, you know, don't be
afraid to make some noise, youknow like there's nothing wrong
with posting really positivethings, like people need that
right now.

Speaker 2 (49:43):
Yes, and not posting negative things.
I've actually unfollowed everysingle person that is posting
negative stuff, every single oneof them.
I'm not feeding into it Like Idon't want anything to do with
it.
If you're not working to makethe world a better place, you're
working to make the world aworse place, because you can't
be neutral.
Either you're helping or you'rehurting.
And what kind of country wouldwe be if we continue to look at

(50:05):
half of the country as scumbags,like seriously?

Speaker 1 (50:10):
and that's from either side right.

Speaker 2 (50:12):
So if we keep looking at the other people and saying
and this goes back to what yousaid earlier, Cora, about the
difference between community andindividualism, so going to
Europe, it's great to seebecause they have a strong sense
of community, they're helpingeach other, they're taking care
of each other.
It's really great to see whenyou take an entire country and
you give them the message thatit's all about.

(50:33):
What do I get?
What do I get?
Me, me, me, me, me.
What the hell do you expect?
You get a country of a wholebunch of people who are super
entitled to hate each other.

Speaker 3 (50:41):
I completely agree, and I do think too, part of that
is we have to move away from,or rather we have to separate
our ideologies from ouridentities, because truly our
ideology is the result of theinformation that we have at hand
.
And I think if we're unwillingto look at the fact that

(51:02):
everybody really is the resultof their exposure, what they
have access to, and if you'regoing to point that as a
personal fault, something wrongwith the individual, I think
you're never going to getanywhere because you're
ultimately denying them humanityin your own perspective.

Speaker 2 (51:19):
Yeah, and I agree with you, mike, and that
everybody is an expert in theirown life.
They know the experiences thatthey've had and they know what
they need.
Again we go.
We go back to like historyrepeating itself, and I think
about just even in our history.
I think back to like the Salemwitchcraft trials.
So they were able to convincean entire community to like hang
people they loved because oflike these crazy theories that

(51:42):
were about like land grabs andother things, right, and there's
all sorts of countless examplesof this.
The other ones I was thinkingof is changelings, I think in
Ireland, where they would hangbabies over fires and if the
baby didn't burn to death, thenit was a changeling, and if it
burned to death, oops, it was ababy.
So how many times can societybe convinced that doing awful

(52:05):
things is okay?
And here we are again.

Speaker 1 (52:12):
But also we got to like remember some of our heroes
and some of the people thatwork on the ground level, like
just thinking about COVID andthe first responders and doctors
and nurses who just stepped upand did their jobs in the most
beautiful way you know, reallymade sacrifices during a very

(52:34):
scary time.
We get a look at the positivepeople out there who are doing
the work.

Speaker 2 (52:38):
I agree with you.
Covid is a great example,because all the positive people
that were out there doing thework were also the people who
were being harassed and bulliedand leaving the field because of
how awful people were to them.
So, yes, we do have to be, weneed more people to kind of step
it up and be nice, but then wealso need people to stop being
mean.

(52:58):
Both have to happensimultaneously, because
otherwise people are going tostop.

Speaker 3 (53:06):
I think, to both of your points.
I do believe that, you know,throughout history there has
always been that dichotomy ofhumanity the good and the bad,
and the bad and the good.
You know, yin yang, I don't.
I don't think that is somethingthat will ever be eradicated
from humanity, from our world.
But I do think that, back tothe point of you know where we

(53:28):
focus our energy, if we'refocusing that on the negative,
nothing productive will come ofit.
And I think, while it isimportant to acknowledge the
negatives that are in existenceand to actively work against
them, that can't happen unlessthe focus is on the positive and
strides towards that ideal.

Speaker 2 (53:46):
Very well said what can we end?
And both of you have beenreally great and awesome on this
episode and I appreciate bothof you being here.

Speaker 3 (53:53):
Appreciate you having me here.

Speaker 2 (53:55):
It's great to hear both of your perspectives.
So what do you think if wecould give one takeaway and I
hope the listeners will also dothis, this similar thing,
because we've done this on theBe Kind episode?
What is one thing you can do towork to make the world a better
place, like day to day?

Speaker 1 (54:13):
Well, I've got one I'd like to share if you don't
mind.
It was really cool.
The other day, two womenknocked on my door and one of
them was running for a citycouncil seat in my area, and so
I spoke with her for a fewminutes and she was like brand
new to the process and wastalking about all the changes

(54:34):
she was hoping to make.
I did end up voting for her.
She didn't get in, but I cancertainly start helping for the
next run.
But then the person who waswith her is actually really
engaging in advocacy.
On the town level.
We have a gun range that's very, very close to our middle

(54:54):
school and our high school, andit is scary sometimes when you
drive by and you hear shotsbeing fired in the distance and
then you see kids playing onbasically the other side of the
road.
So this person is doingadvocacy to.
All she wants is to for thatsound to be muffled.
That's all we're asking, andthat seems like something that I

(55:15):
can definitely put some energytowards and hope to make a
difference in.

Speaker 2 (55:20):
I'm going to say I'm going to tell something that
you've done that has actuallymade me happy, right, because I
think the stuff that you justmentioned is great, is great,
and I don't want to get intolike the corrupt politics stuff,
because I've worked with acouple people who've run locally
and I've heard horror storiesabout them getting threatened
and all sorts of stuff.
So, um, to take that, to takethat part out of it, I'm

(55:42):
thinking more of like just a anindividual, like day-to-day
basis.
There were two times and thatyou because I guess you have
like a garden at home and youbrought in like little flowers
and like herbs for me and youleft them on my desk and a
little vase and I saw them andI'm like, oh my God, cora,
that's like the sweetest thingever.
It just like made my day Right,like.
So I don't think it has to bethis massive like life-changing

(56:05):
thing right Like we're we'regoing out and doing stuff like,
but you made my, my day reallybright that day.
So how can you do more of thaton a day-to-day basis?
Like?
What can you do?
I don't mean bring me herbsevery day.
What can you do to make thelike?
How do you keep doing stufflike?

Speaker 1 (56:23):
that for me, growing that stuff is is a personal,
personal especially, my yardgets a little unruly because I
love growing pollinator things,which are not always pretty, but
they bring, you know, all sortsof things to the garden.
But I've really actuallystarted thinking like how do I
take care of myself?
So taking care of myself isworking in the garden, and then

(56:47):
how do I share that with otherpeople?
And so, you know, sharing seedsor cuttings, all that kind of
stuff is just like a nice way inmy community to get out there a
little bit and meet new peopletoo.
So that's something I reallyenjoy.
I love the flowers Like I'mglad you enjoyed that but also
just thinking like, who do Ilove?
Who should I call?

(57:08):
Today?
I've been trying to get on thephone with friends and family a
little bit more because Irealized I was being kind of
isolated.
So I asked myself, who do Ifeel like talking today and I'll
just pick up the phone and callthem.

Speaker 2 (57:20):
I don't know if this is I don't know the like what
you can and can't donate to thefood bank.
I know they're really pickyabout certain things, but could
you donate?

Speaker 1 (57:34):
herbs that you grow to like local food pantries and
food banks as uh.
Like I love that idea.

Speaker 2 (57:36):
I don't know, but yeah, I don't know that you can.
I'm just.
I'm just kind of throwing itout there as like a, as a
suggestion, because, although Ithink it's really great, you
know, to go back to what wetalked about, about creating
more unity, to also not justspend time with the people we
like, but to try to like, branchout and make ourselves known to
other people too.
Right, the great, great ideas,though, mike, what do you?

(57:56):
Do you have any thoughts onwhat you could do?

Speaker 3 (57:59):
I mean, I was thinking on a very similar level
.
I really think that this is atime and I know this is
something I kind of touched onalready, but definitely a time
to really foster community, takeinterest and take action at the
level that you can, thecapacity that you can within
your own communities, within thepeople that you love, whether
that's, you know, whether yourcommunity is your family and
friends, or you're looking atyour larger local community,

(58:21):
like schools, local government,town councils, things of that
nature, sports leagues.
There's so many differentcapacities in which you know we
can be involved in our own livesand the things that do directly
affect us.
And I think it's important, ina time when we feel often
helpless and hopeless, thathaving a direct hand in outcomes

(58:43):
for the people that we love andcare about I think are so
important, and I think we oftenlose sight of that in pursuit of
the larger overarching kind ofchange that we, that we, hope
for.

Speaker 2 (58:51):
Yeah, I agree.
So what do you like?
Can you think of any thingsthat you would, you could do,
that would?

Speaker 3 (58:57):
help.
Yeah, I know personally, onething that I I definitely have
lost sight of in recent years isI used to here and there attend
school board meetings to tomake my voice heard.
You know, obviously that wasmore pertinent to me when I was
a student or or closer in age toa high school student, but I
think having a hand in that issomething that was very
meaningful to me at the time andI think it still can be.

(59:18):
You know, working with, with theyouth is something that I'm
still passionate about, uh, andI think fostering the best
outcomes for our youth is is oneof the most important things to
make generational change.
So that's something that,specifically, I would like to
get back to.
And, in addition, I mean evendoing something like umpiring

(59:38):
for my local little league,which is something that I used
to do back in high school forcommunity service hours.
That's something that I thinkis such an important example of
like how we can connect with ourcommunities and the people in
it, even if I mean, for example,you know my area tends to be
pretty right wing andideologically different for me,

(59:58):
but that doesn't mean that Ican't connect with these people
and have meaningfulrelationships with them.
So, amongst other things, Ithink those two are some
examples of things that Ispecifically could do, but apply
it to your life as as you would.

Speaker 1 (01:00:12):
That sounds awesome.

Speaker 2 (01:00:13):
That's it.
That's really great.
I love the the umpiring.
That's really cool.

Speaker 3 (01:00:16):
It was intimidating as a 16 year old, but I think at
24, it might be a little lessso.

Speaker 2 (01:00:23):
And, as you know, oh, go ahead, cora.

Speaker 1 (01:00:25):
Oh no, how about you?

Speaker 2 (01:00:26):
Well, I was just going to say, as you both know,
one of the things that I've beendoing a lot recently is making
soaps and just like giving themto people Like I've given them
to like local people, I've giventhem to you guys, I've given to
like a whole bunch of peoplebecause it's just like, it's an,
it's just nice, right, like.
So I mean it's not making aworld change, but I mean
certainly people are saying likeyou know, it's really nice,

(01:00:46):
thank you for thinking of me,because then it makes a more
personal connection.
So then for things that wedon't agree with, we can have
conversations, because then welike each other right.
So like we, we have this kindof bond and you know, even if
it's like a little superficialbonds.
But also, you know I'm one ofthe things I love to do is just
and I do this with lots ofpeople is just send out random

(01:01:07):
texts like saying like, like hey, you're like awesome or
whatever, or just like sayingnice things to people, because
it, you never know, like thatone thing you say to somebody
could prevent them.
I know I'm being kind ofextreme, but it could prevent it
, prevent them from likecommitting suicide that day,
like you have no idea, right?
Like just these little kindnice acts that connect us, don't

(01:01:28):
separate us, like are thethings that I try to do?

Speaker 1 (01:01:31):
yeah, and I just want to say, you know, I have a
couple of friends that werefeeling really vulnerable and I
just did like a quick hey, howare you doing this week?
You know, check in.
And that sparked some reallygood conversation too.
So you know, I love that yousend those texts, matt, and your
soap is amazing.
So thank you for all of thoselittle things that you do.

Speaker 2 (01:01:53):
It's so easy to make too, like I don't.
So everybody knows I don'tactually make the soap from
scratch, because lye scares thehell out of me and I just feel
like if I did that I'd end uplike I don't know, like dying or
something.
So it's like the melt and pour,but I, you know, but I know
obviously I put other stuff init and like vitamin E and I put
in the sense and all that stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:02:11):
They're very much appreciated.

Speaker 2 (01:02:12):
Well, I appreciate it .
I they feel great, Don't they?
They're awesome.

Speaker 1 (01:02:17):
This has been a really good conversation.
I just want to thank you bothfor toughing it out with me and
talking about things.

Speaker 2 (01:02:24):
That's why we're here .
We I've said this many, many,why we're here.
I've said this many, many, manytimes.
It's such a privilege and honorto work with both of you.
I think you're both trulyamazing and I thank you so much
for being on here and, hopefully, for the people listening.
Hopefully you took somethingpositive out of it, like,
hopefully you will go out andtry to make the world a better
place.
Talk to somebody you don'tnormally like or you don't

(01:02:45):
understand.
Try to understand them.
Let's start coming together asa community and making like,
real changes.

Speaker 1 (01:02:52):
And thank you all so much for listening.
It means so much to us.

Speaker 2 (01:02:56):
All right, everybody, and we're going to have some
guest speakers coming on soon,hopefully, and by next week or
by next episode we'll talk aboutwhat we're going to do in terms
of, like, the giveaway for thetumblers.
I think that would be reallygreat, so thank you.
Thank you, mike, for joining.
Thank you, cora.

Speaker 3 (01:03:13):
Thank you so much for having me.
It's been a pleasure.

Speaker 2 (01:03:36):
Hello everybody and thank you again for listening.
This is just a reminder that nopart of this podcast can be
duplicated or copied withoutwritten consent from either
myself or Wendy.
Thank, you again.