October 5, 2025 • 58 mins
We unpack reactions to the assassination of Charlie Kirk, the messy truths of trauma responses, and why some grief gets megaphones while other suffering stays invisible. Trauma reactions come in many forms. But what is it that makes such a tidal wave of reactions when the targets are high profile white men, but a resounding silence when it is from other groups.
• setting intentions, limits, and non‑violence
• why man‑made violence destabilizes more than disasters
• viral footage, repetition, and normal trauma responses
• witnessing harm and preventing entrenched PTSD
• media bias, scapegoating, and selective outrage
• interpersonal versus systemic violence
• sympathy, empathy, and compassion defined
• mixed feelings about public figures and moral nuance
• global grief hierarchies and who gets to be human
• systems “working as designed” and dehumanizing language
• moving from feeling to practice with concrete actions
Task yourself with one compassionate act this week that eases someone’s load—one person or one community. Share what you chose and why.
Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!):
https://uppbeat.io/t/hartzmann/no-time-to-die
License code: S4CEQWLNQXVZUMU4
Artwork and logo design by Misty Rae.
Special thanks to Joanna Roux for editing help.
Special thanks to the listeners and all the wonderful people who helped listen to and provide feedback on the episode's prerelease.
Please feel free to email Matt topics or suggestions, questions or feedback.
Matt@unitedstatesofPTSD.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_03 (00:14):
This podcast is not intended to serve as therapeutic
advice or to replace anyprofessional treatment.
These opinions belong to us anddo not reflect any company or
agency.
SPEAKER_01 (00:29):
Hello, everybody, and welcome back to another
episode of United States ofPTSD.
Erica and I are here today totalk about some of the pretty
horrific things that havehappened over the past couple of
weeks.
We decided to do this episodebecause of that, and we will be
releasing episodes in a weeklyformat, probably for the next
(00:51):
month, again, as a result ofaddressing these issues as they
pop up.
Erica, is there anything youwant to add to that?
SPEAKER_04 (00:57):
I think I'm going to start off by like setting some
intentions for our conversationand our audience and for people
who might be hearing this in thefuture.
So we're living in a time inwhich information is changing
very rapidly.
So at the time of we'rerecording this on September
15th, by the time this isreleased, it's possible that
(01:19):
there's new information outthere that might theoretically
have had some impact on somethings that we were going to
say.
SPEAKER_01 (01:27):
That's a great point.
And I do want to just also sayto the listeners that Eric and I
would love to release contentmore often, but it's, you know,
we both obviously have very busyschedules and it takes a lot of
work behind the scenes to getthese things out.
So thank you, Erica, foractually timestamping it because
I do think it's important to saythe date we're recording it.
(01:48):
So thank you for that.
SPEAKER_04 (01:49):
And and the other thing that I want to make clear
so Matt and I are both rooted inboth like professional and
personal philosophies ofnon-violence.
Also recognize the fact that itis like non-violence is complex,
right?
Because how we definenonviolence for ourselves and
(02:13):
how people experience violenceis definitely not treated the
same and is not valued the same.
And that's part of what thediscussion we're going to have.
Um, we also recognize that weare are basically like citizens
experiencing somethingcollectively.
Neither of us have any expertisein investigative journalism or
(02:40):
like police investigations.
We also have limitations in theknowledge that we have.
So that's I'm going to statethat out that we are people with
experience in fields that giveus assistance in in being able
to have discourse on it that mayhave value to the general
public.
And also, like we are humanbeings that have limits to our
(03:03):
knowledge.
And um, and I think that'simportant because we're talking
about something that involvesgun violence, political
violence, um, assassination ofpublic figures, killings of
non-public figures that havelike happened at a same time.
Right, and how and how life isfundamentally valued differently
(03:28):
in how our society talks aboutlife and the loss of life.
SPEAKER_01 (03:33):
If I could add to that, Erica, and and again,
thank you.
I so appreciate um your umperspective and and the way
because you have a much, Ithink, a more scientific,
logical way of putting thingsdown, which I super appreciate
because I I don't always havethat.
But I do want to add, althoughyou are correct, we don't have
expertise in journalism,investigative reporting, like
(03:55):
any of that stuff.
We both have expertise workingwith people and the impact that
that has, or all of this stuffhas, on the psyche of both
people individually, and thenthe psyche and collective kind
of thought of a society.
So that's the stuff I thinkwe're really gonna focus on.
SPEAKER_04 (04:13):
Yeah.
You know, part of part of thisopening, right, I would say is
the has to do with theassassination of Charlie Kirk.
So um as a little bit ofbackground, Charlie Kirk, and
I'm I'm gonna say this based offof my experience.
So I live in Arizona.
I live in Phoenix, Arizona.
Phoenix, Arizona is where umTurning Point USA, the
(04:35):
organization that Charlie Kirkboth founded uh at 18, um, and
also like that he runs, um, isbased close to where I live.
And Arizona as a state, right,has a lot of complexity.
And he is a political figure.
He's a political operator.
Like there are people who whomight not be aware of the degree
(04:58):
of his political importance topeople who are processing his
assassination who um have strongfeelings about him as a public
figure and um who are likefollowers of what he said,
right?
And of course, as a polarizingfigure, people are going to get
different pieces of informationabout him.
(05:21):
So, what we are seeing is theassassination of a very public
figure that had controversialideas.
And I would invite you to thinkabout that in general, as far as
political violence, right, andhow that happens, because this
is not like a new thing, right?
We can look at these.
(05:41):
Um, and I think it's importantto acknowledge him as a very
influential political figure.
And it means that how peoplerespond to discussions about him
are going to be reflective ofthat.
SPEAKER_01 (05:55):
I want to add one thing to that, Erica, that we
said when we were also talkingto Amy last week.
I think I think it was when wewere talking to Amy, is I I do
want to just remind people thatthe definition of trauma is a
normal response to an abnormalcircumstance.
So his assassination wascertainly an abnormal
circumstance that we do not seein that context every day.
(06:18):
Now, obviously, we see it kindof in the periphery when we talk
about things like schoolshootings because nobody's
actually seeing it televised onTV.
So I think it's different whenyou have that kind of visceral
image behind it.
And I know I had shared with youearlier before we started
recording that when I saw thevideo, it was out of context.
I didn't even know whathappened.
(06:38):
I just received a text and um Iwatched the video, and instantly
it was just this horrificresponse that I had, right?
And how how each person dealswith that response is normal.
SPEAKER_04 (06:53):
Right.
And I so I think that there'ssome unique things, right, as
far as political violence or umgun violence being something
that impacts our societygreatly.
Um, as Matt was mentioning, theamount of spread of the actual
footage of it happening isunusual.
(07:16):
And so that is a a circumstancewith which we are navigating
collectively in trauma.
I saw it as well, and it was,you know, I I am a medical
professional who looks at andhas witnessed and seen pretty
awful things.
I'm also familiar with awfulthings and seeing awful things
(07:38):
due to following globalviolence, right, that occurs
against citizens.
And I've grown up with storiesabout it too.
So in some ways, when I watchedit, like for my personal, like
sharing of my personalprocessing of it, part of it is
a way that I'm also measuringhow numb, you know, some of the
work that I do makes medicalprofessionals, right?
(08:02):
And how and how we are um, so insome ways, it's like this this
also the distinction ofrealizing how we are all
impacted differently byviolence.
And we are all impacteddifferently with the chronicity
of our exposure to it.
And I just my heart is achingfor those young kids who
witnessed that because it's itis it is a trauma that that
(08:25):
changes.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (08:27):
I also want to normalize a different type of
reaction that people might behaving that don't talk about.
There's a thing in trauma calledrepetition compulsion where
somebody does the same thingover and over again because
they're trying to gain masteryof it.
And that often happens inrelationships where somebody
will leave one, you know,abusive relationship and then
end up in a very similarrelationship because they're
(08:48):
they're really trying to kind ofmaster what they're struggling
with.
So there are some people as partof that that might be watching
that video over and over againand might be feeling guilty
about it because they're maybethey're thinking, oh, this is
sick, but there's there's a partof them that's really trying to
grasp what the heck justhappened.
So if you're having thatresponse, I do want to just say
that's a normal response.
(09:09):
So don't judge yourself for thator don't think you're uh crazy
for doing it.
There is no normal response towhat we saw.
SPEAKER_04 (09:17):
And so yeah, and also for people who are
experiencing the relivingness,and so I'm actually I'm I'm
gonna share another personalstory.
Um, there was a a person uh shotby Mesa PD on the highway too
long ago.
And there was an organizer thatI know who who witnessed it.
She was in her car, she saw it.
(09:37):
And the story between whatpolice put forward and what she
directly witnessed.
So they basically said that hehad a gun.
And what it was is that peoplewho were there who saw it saw
that he did not.
So basically, people witness aperson with their hands up as a
citizen get gunned down bypolice, state police violence.
(09:58):
I I was able to haveconversations with her about
what she was probably becauseit's a very when something like
that, when someone witnessessomething like that or
experiences a traumaticexperience, by having
conversations with supportivepeople and having the degree of
the trauma recognize, sayingthat like this is a very
(10:20):
traumatic thing, what you justexperienced, and being attentive
to yourself is important, thatcan prevent it from solidifying
into a PTSD-like state.
And one of the things that wetalked about was which was
considered helpful, which Ithink is really important to
(10:40):
talk about, is that sometimeswhen you're when your brain is
replaying it and you're like,why is my brain replaying it?
Sometimes it has to do with thedegree of compassion, right?
You are trying to understand,like you're like, how could this
uh uh the desire to understandthe degree and severity of what
(11:03):
happened for yourself in orderbecause your heart is wanting to
um do something around thesuffering that you just
witnessed.
SPEAKER_01 (11:15):
Absolutely.
And to also add to that, Erica,because this is an important
distinction with trauma forpeople who are listening, is
that there's the type of traumathat people do not that do not
do well with is the man-madestuff.
So for example, if you survivean earthquake or a hurricane or
a natural disaster, not to saythat people don't suffer and
that they do, there's a certainamount of normalcy behind that.
(11:38):
People know hurricanes happen,people know typhoons happen,
they know earthquakes happen,they accept it.
They struggle with it, but theyaccept it.
When it's something like this,when it's something like
somebody being assassinated fortalking about their opinion or
kids being executed in schools,or a woman on the subway being
stabbed repeatedly, those arethings that are man-made and
they fall outside of our norm.
(12:00):
We don't want to believe thatthat happened.
So those are the things thatpeople struggle with the most.
And it's really hard for peopleto really take those, take that
and kind of incorporate it andrealize that okay, this is not
what the whole world looks like,even though in the moment they
think it is.
SPEAKER_04 (12:16):
Yeah.
So I I want to express Matt howdeeply I appreciate because what
you're talking about, these areall things that were happening
pretty much at the same time,right?
These other uh that happened.
So we had a school shooting inwhich I think there were at
least two kids who were killed.
SPEAKER_01 (12:35):
And that was not covered nearly as much, nor was
the woman the she was fromUkraine, right?
The woman that was on the yes,that was barely covered.
I I didn't even when I saw it, Iwasn't even sure what it was
about until I heard more aboutit.
SPEAKER_04 (12:49):
Right.
And, you know, there issomething like so it is noted
that in in Trump's discussion ofviolence, you know, the
political assassination of uhtwo democratic uh politicians
and representatives was notnamed.
So this is uh a pointing outthat um there is the
(13:16):
politicization of this in whichum it is being utilized to
target and scapegoat uhparticular populations as a
strategy of fascism.
So that's something also to beaware of.
Um, in this particularsituation, what we have is that
(13:40):
the literal statement that thisshooter was trans and they were
not, um, what it turned out wasthat there was an unverified or
there was a report of thingsthat were carved on the bullets.
It was misattributed there, itwas just like arrows, like the
the bullet had arrows carved init in different directions, and
(14:04):
some completely idiot reporterwho should get sued for the
egregiousness of it claimed thatthat was related to
transitology.
And so, what happens in thissituation, you have a cohort of
people right now who are beingtargeted and blamed and who will
(14:24):
um experience danger, violencethat will that is being like
viewed as justified.
So, so a particular cohort forno reason at all was further
dehumanized.
SPEAKER_01 (14:40):
You know what I also think of when we had Zach and
Bree on the show and they weretalking about the use of police
dogs and how it when a dog ischasing after somebody that has
not been convicted, it is not,they they don't have any proof
on them, and then they getmauled by the dog.
Right.
Is it if you look at I mean ifwe just look at the facts of
(15:01):
what's happening in our countryright now, we have armed people,
masked people ripping people offthe streets.
We have media people saying onTV that they think people with
disabilities should be allowedto kill themselves voluntarily
or involuntarily.
SPEAKER_04 (15:16):
And we have uh also the unhoused population, people
facing housing insecurity arebeing dehumanized.
And like there was recently apolitician who had to retract a
statement that where he wasbasically justifying like murder
of unhoused people.
(15:37):
Well, like injection.
SPEAKER_01 (15:38):
Well, that was like the Fox News anchor said that he
had said that they should beallowed that they should be
involuntarily injected andkilled.
I had also just recentlyapologized for that.
So we have that, and then wehave these detention centers
where they're sellingmerchandise for.
Where have we seen this play outin history before?
(15:59):
Like seriously, where we likethis is like play by play, where
have we seen this before?
And the amount of people who areturning a blind eye to that and
saying, Oh, it's not reallyhappening that way, or you know,
this isn't the same thing.
I mean, it's it's literally thesame thing.
SPEAKER_04 (16:15):
I mean, I've I uh you know, there are a lot of us
that have heritage in this torecognize, and like so honestly,
like this is where some of thereaction to someone like Charlie
Kukirk espoused violent ideologyin addition to his very faith
(16:47):
family and interpersonal.
So this is like the distinctionbetween interpersonal violence
and systemic violence, and um Ithink that people have a
tendency to not acknowledge howCharlie Kirk's actions had and
(17:09):
statements were directly relatedto and in support of like state
violence towards particularcohorts, towards violence that
kills just as readily as activeviolence is a gun, but it
(17:32):
doesn't because it doesn't lookthat way, right?
This is this is something thatyou know, for example, the
distinction between um howAmericans were will perceive
like imperialist Japan comparedto our dropping of a nuclear
bomb.
So I think it's it's very likethis is kind of like a I have
explored this because it is ofpersonal impact, right?
(17:54):
Like I am half Sudan German,right?
I have from the beginning of myconsciousness explored the
concept of violence in this waybecause my family comes from a
heritage of a people who werelike the the borderlands people
(18:16):
that were punted between thisand then became part of this
Nazi apparatus that committed agenocide inspired by the
genocide of the United Statesagainst the indigenous people
here, which is inspired by thegenocide of peoples all over the
(18:36):
world.
In some ways, like all of thisis connected because those
things happen through acombination of rhetoric,
political rhetoric, masscommunications, the overton
window shifting.
Um, and these are all terms, ifyou haven't explored them, to
explore them.
Um, because um, you know,regardless like we are all being
(18:59):
acclimated to violence.
SPEAKER_01 (19:01):
Yeah, and that that's been happening for a
while.
Yeah, you know, I was thinkingabout this is just a thought.
I'm not claiming this is fact byany means.
I was just thinking about thisthe other day.
You had that person who saidwhen they were referencing
genocide about killing theoffspring, like it's important
to like kill all the kids sothat they don't, you know,
continue.
But then I think about what'shappening in this country.
(19:22):
So we have vaccines now beingquestioned and being said, like
people don't have to get themanymore.
Well, who dies from diseaseswhen they're not vaccinated?
The elderly and the young.
We also have or and the andpeople who are compromised with
health, and then we have schoolswhere the department of
education is now being defunded,and all of these things are
(19:43):
happening with that, butstudents can't focus because
they're worried about gettingshot in school and they're
starving in school.
So, what are we doing to the thekids in this country?
We are what are we doing?
It it seems a little too similarto me.
That's all.
I mean, it it's different butsimilar.
SPEAKER_04 (20:02):
Well, I think that yeah, yeah.
I I I um as as someone who hashas focused a lot of of my
organizing efforts on youthempowerment, and that's like
when you think about it, liketurning point usa, this is like
Charlie Kirk interacting withyou look like with youth.
(20:27):
And like although I absolutelydisagree with so many things
that he's uh and I'm part ofcommunities that he is actively
harmed by and and that he hascontributed to making a world in
which you know people I careabout are at even more risk,
(20:50):
right?
So it's like direct violenceversus indirect violence.
Um, I can also acknowledge thefact that he was engaged in
youth, right?
And he was engaged in connectingwith youth, and that he did
connect with youth and he didmake young people feel seen and
(21:15):
cared for and their problemscared for.
And as someone who works withyoung people, it's a it's a
vacuum.
It's a vacuum.
People are have in general beenmuch more focused on, and this
is something that I encounter inin my profession, in the
veterinary field, about how likeso many people out in the
profession have just completelydisconnected themselves from
(21:39):
what the young people are havingto grow up in and navigate by
themselves in isolation.
That is a a population that isdiscontent, that is not having
their needs met, that is that issuffering, is going to engage
very greatly with anyone whochooses to make them feel seen.
SPEAKER_01 (22:02):
I think that would go nicely with the conversation
we had before we startedrecording about empathy and
compassion.
SPEAKER_00 (22:09):
Right?
SPEAKER_01 (22:10):
Because that because you know, when you're engaging
with a group of people who don'tfeel heard, there's certainly a
level of empathy that goes inwith that.
And, you know, we have createdsuch a, you know, you were
talking earlier about when youdo professional work, how
sometimes it can desensitizeyou.
And I thought about when mygrandfather passed away, I was
in my early 20s, and my cousinwas a nurse and he was on
(22:32):
hospice care.
And I remember she was helpingto take care of him, but it was
really clinical.
And she seemed to switch roles.
She went from being like afamily member to almost like a
caretaker.
And I remember like aprofessional caretaker.
And I remember thinking at thetime, well, like, how is she not
being affected by this?
Right.
So I think that is a complicatedquestion.
(22:55):
And I'm sure she was affectedafterwards, yeah.
Like, but because you know, Iknow that obviously through my
own experiences, but when wetalk about empathy and
compassion, I think that it'simportant to define those two
things, and it's as we talkedabout before.
So let's do that.
SPEAKER_04 (23:10):
When we're talking about there, there there's this
discussion, right?
Because of course, now in theyou know, public square where
conversations are happening,when we're talking about three
concepts sympathy, empathy, andcompassion.
So, and and this has to do withthe fact that there are people
(23:33):
who disagree with Charlie Kirk,who are saying that he is the
person who said, you know, thathe hated the word empathy.
Um and then cohorts who aresaying that there was a
misattribution or that the quotewas taken out of context.
The whole thing statement fromhim is along the lines of how
(23:58):
much he disagrees with the wordempathy because it implies that
you can understand anotherperson's experience and that uh
sympathy is more appropriate asa general state of the human
condition, that like theexistence of empathy is
basically a lie, and that umcompassion is what he thinks is
(24:21):
most important.
So this is very interestingbecause there are things that I
both agree and disagree with,and part of that I think the
irony is that compassion itselfis described and also not very
well studied.
Uh, last time I wrote apresentation where I looked at
(24:42):
the literature about this.
But compassion as expression inrelation to most of our
knowledge of it is comes fromreligion and um the expression
of action around the alleviationof suffering.
So this is definitely somethingthat is like very, very
prominent within Buddhist theoryand different aspects is the
(25:04):
concept of the observation ofsuffering, the seeking to
understand that suffering, whichwould be where we speak on
empathy, and then taking actionto alleviate that suffering.
And so this is where some ofCharlie Kirk's words and actions
can separate.
(25:25):
Also, in the irony of sayingthat he doesn't believe in
empathy, but believes incompassion, um, is how should I
say, one could um, but I knowsometimes I get a little bit too
precise in like the origin ofwords and their definitions, and
it's all made up anyway.
But I think that's made it up,right?
SPEAKER_01 (25:47):
I think it it's helpful though to kind of flesh
out those nuances of everything.
When we're talking aboutempathy, my experience with that
is a lot of people don'tnecessarily understand what that
means, and they will usedisplays that are maybe
disingenuous, but but call itempathy.
And with sympathy, sympathy I'vealways perceived more as a pity
(26:09):
position.
It's your it's like a powerposition.
You're kind of above somebodylooking down and saying, like, I
feel sorry for you down there,which is not always super
helpful, depending on thecircumstances.
SPEAKER_04 (26:20):
Well, I think that sympathy is honest and it's
encompassing that we might notbe able to understand another
person's experience, right?
But as uh political figures arelikely to do, they will take
something to the extreme.
In that the statement of it isimpossible within the human
(26:42):
condition to be able tounderstand another person
because you are not in theirhead, right?
And that is very distinct fromthis concept of a unifying
humanity, right?
So, what Charlie Kirk is isassuming in this context is that
the hyper-individuality thathumans are so individualized
(27:03):
that they are not connected inany way, shape, or form, in
which empathy is possible.
SPEAKER_01 (27:08):
And we've created that though, right?
I mean, the whole sense ofindividualism.
SPEAKER_04 (27:12):
Well, I would say American culture hasn't created.
SPEAKER_01 (27:15):
Right.
What I meant we, that's what Iwas referencing.
Like it's it's thisindividualism that would be the
antithesis of somebody focusingon empathy, because it's all
about like how you youdisconnect from people.
And that is not where it is.
You don't have to go through thesame experience that somebody
went through to understand thefeeling behind what they're
going through.
So, you know, you don't likerelational, relational, right?
SPEAKER_04 (27:39):
To put yourself in that position to the best of
your ability.
SPEAKER_01 (27:45):
But if you connect to the feeling, that's what's
important.
So, for example, if somebodyloses their parent, you don't
have to lose a parent tounderstand what it's like to
grieve.
Right.
And that's that's thecommonality behind it.
You might not understand whatit's like to grieve a parent,
but you know what raw grieffeels like.
And instead of focusing on that,we focus on the the separation.
(28:09):
Like, well, you can't get itbecause you didn't have this
exact same scenario.
But I don't think you need tohave the scenario to relate to
the feeling.
SPEAKER_04 (28:18):
Yeah, and in in this way, I can reflect, and and so
it's interesting to me because Ihave people in my life who
resonated with some of thethings that Charlie Kirk had to
say, and depending on whether ornot they were also in spaces
that were offering up thecritique, and I mean like
(28:42):
critique as in far as likeintellectual critique or like
under like unpacking rhetoric,unpacking um like actual meaning
of these these things.
So even in the context of whatCharlie Kirk presented around
the limitations ofhuman-to-human connection and
making empathy possible, right?
(29:03):
Like I can point out through aprocess of deconstruction of
what he's saying in comparisonto other sources of where there
are limitations in his thinkingand as being expressed, or
things that are not necessarilymaybe on first pass sound really
(29:25):
good, but have other things thatare worthy of discussion.
And the issue is with anypolitical figure or any sort of,
and this is like I I try andbring up idolatry, right, to
people in religious spaces asfar as when the language of any
(29:46):
individual person becomessacrosanct, right, or free of
critique.
And that is that is what Iobserve um American culture to
be very.
susceptible to because peoplehave on average less exposure or
(30:06):
less like um exploration ofother forms of like of culture
right so where I just said likewhat the issue with what he says
in this is saying that humansare incapable of connecting with
one another.
That idolatry that you justtalked about talked about that
echoes again what Amy said rightand how cults start when you
(30:29):
start perceiving what one personsays or what a group of people
say as the absolute truth andnothing nothing goes beyond that
that absolute truth yeah thatmakes a lot of sense um so it's
been it's been interestingbecause like um you know I think
(30:53):
where I see right now is alsopeople not necessarily if if
what they what people talk aboutabout Charlie Kirk being so
resonant with them is talkingabout how he made them feel
about connection and aboutcommunity and about connecting
with family and aboutforgiveness and all these things
(31:15):
and yet are unable to utilizewhat they are proposing as his
theories that they are wantingto live their lives by and their
ethic of how they treat otherpeople.
SPEAKER_01 (31:26):
And what we see is the selection right the
selection of how things areapplied who is treated as I I
think the inherent conflictthere is that if somebody is
hearing your space, if somebodyis holding it and saying like
okay I understand what you'retalking about and I I can give
attention to that and helping tovalidate somebody is one thing
(31:49):
but validating people byinvalidating other people is not
where we want to be andunfortunately that was the that
was part of his message was thatI can hear you but and what I'm
hearing you is that you'redifferent and better than all of
these other people.
And that in itself causes moredivisiveness and a problem.
And I I I also want to say thistoo because I think it's
(32:12):
important to understand that wecan hold two feelings at once
and a lot of people are um beingguilted for this right having
mixed feelings about it.
We go back to empathy andsympathy.
You can sympathize with whatwith his family and what
happened and say like okaynobody deserves that.
But at the same time it's okayto not have empathy for that if
(32:32):
what he was talking about issomething that would have
adversely impacted you or thepeople that you care about.
So it's okay to have both ofthose feelings at the same time
it doesn't make you a a badperson it doesn't make you're
not glorifying somebody gettingkilled you're honoring the two
parts of you that are like okayI I can I can sympathize with
with this but at the same time Ijust don't have the same level
(32:54):
of empathy that I would becausethat person was directly
attacking me.
SPEAKER_04 (32:59):
Yeah I mean I I I think what I also see in
addition to that as far as likein um as far as like cohorts the
I think it's more like this deepbreath is at all of the other
violence that goesunacknowledged.
Right because this is like thethe pedestalization of
(33:23):
individuals who it's just likelike the the type of of violence
that is cared about right wedon't even like no one is say to
recognize that political figuresare going to result in a half
(33:44):
mast but not you know at thesame time we're seeing how like
but only certain honoring spaceof the pulse map but that's but
there's only certain politicalfigures as you pointed out
earlier with the two democraticlawmakers that didn't happen.
SPEAKER_01 (33:59):
So it's even not just with lawmakers across the
board or or or political figuresit's just particular ones and I
made a I mean it was kind of ajoke but it's kind of the
reality of it is people weresaying well how come we don't do
half master for school shootingsand I said if we did the flag
would never come back up.
It would stay down literally allyear long.
(34:20):
And that's the truth.
SPEAKER_04 (34:21):
I mean maybe that's what we need for people to see
that possibly um yeah I thinkthat also like for me I'm living
in an area where there's a lotof organizing around the grief
(34:44):
right like his remains are beinginterred here um his his remains
are in the city where I amliving and um the like we'll say
that perhaps this part or thisarea is the center of grief at
the moment because he was adirect member of this community.
(35:07):
And you know in myself assomeone who sees this like
outpouring of grief for a singleindividual in the midst of
observing you know two genocidesthat like um going on like the
genocide of the Palestinianpeople.
And I say this because the WestBank is actively experiencing a
(35:31):
lot now and it will continue todo so until until uh the powers
that be or the people put enoughpressure on the powers that be.
Watching all of this empathypour out and and this like like
anger like the the righteousanger of like how dare you
(35:52):
comment on my grief and how fewPalestinian Americans are are
afforded that when we have youknow Palestinian American
children imprisoned in inIsraeli torture prisons.
SPEAKER_01 (36:07):
Or or being handcuffed and buried alive
which this that's happened orbeing shot with snipers or being
raped or all of that stuffthat's going on daily.
SPEAKER_04 (36:16):
And and also when we think about like the Sudan and
Congo and like in in in thesethings where like child children
human beings are are beingmurdered on a mass scale for for
gold and rare earth mineralsthat go into our phones and
(36:41):
people are like talking aboutthe iPhone 17 like the new
iPhone coming out right so for Ithink for me right what I have
been like sitting and observingthis and trying to like process
you know my experience of thisand my feelings of this because
you know I'm not really um I'mtrying to stay focused on my
work uh the people who I'mdirectly connected to that are
(37:06):
are suffering and also thelarger scale suffering that is
going on.
Like it is a little bit of adeep breath sigh right about how
we focus on the quote unquotekings of today because that's
what these individual or queensright yeah like people with such
(37:28):
resources such power right thatthey take over our own capacity
to think about our owncommunities.
SPEAKER_01 (38:06):
Thoughts and prayers and then they just kind of
terrible it which is the mostdisingenuous thing.
And and I have to tell you thething that pisses me off the
most Erica is the same peoplewho are talking about um Charlie
Kirk and all of this stuff havebeen silent on every other
atrocity that's happeningabsolutely silent and they still
(38:29):
continue to be silent.
Yeah and that that part to me isinfuriating.
SPEAKER_04 (38:34):
I mean I think it's interesting to so like I think
it in that we concealed like adistinction um where I would say
like my I don't I don't know ifthis is my like jaded or being
numb right like for me it islike such old news about
atrocity on like what we calllike the people of global
(38:57):
majority right like AsianAfrican Arab all different
identities like the global southother like Korea like all these
places like our global sufferingunder the bombardment starvation
(39:19):
mass murder rape like uh all ofthese things that like have been
happening to people like us oreven like if you think about
like trans gender nonconformingLGBTQIA like like we have
literally been existing inbetween the gear like we are we
(39:40):
are what made it through thegears of of of just incredible
violence and so in some ways Ihave a hard time like I can I
can be like I recognize that itis shocking and and also like I
(40:01):
am so used to how like whiteeuropean how little white
european culture thinks aboutmass murder or like such
incredible violence that like Ijust I don't know like I I I
feel like I'm like I'm sorry Iam sorry because I understand
(40:22):
the losing of that reality thesemblance of safety is like a
difficult thing.
SPEAKER_01 (40:31):
And also there are many people like me who have
like never lived in a realitywhere we didn't associate
humanity with scales of violencethat are um when you talk about
(40:51):
how the um LGBTQ community andwe talk about um I forgot the
exact verbiage you used but itmakes me think about up I think
it was a couple years ago when Ilearned that during the
Holocaust when the Allied troopscame in and freed ever freed all
of the people from theconcentration camps that gay men
went to prison because it was itwas considered a crime.
(41:14):
So they were freed last and theywere sent to prison and we don't
talk about that.
There was also something calledthe Singing Forest which I never
heard of before which is wherethey were impaling gay men on
stakes that is also somethingthat is not talked about.
So it has there are aspects ofit that it's still happening
right like in in these in thesegroups that we're talking about.
(41:39):
Another thing I saw and I'mcurious what your opinion on
this is is the when we'retalking about all the cuts to
farms right and all of that thatthat's happening and I'm seeing
responses for people saying wellthat's what you voted for so
good for you now you suffer itbothers.
The the thing that bothers meabout that is two things.
(42:01):
First of all one not everyfarmer out there voted for the
current administration so that'sjust globalizing people together
again.
But why do we continue to ummake fun of people suffering?
Like they don't deserve becausewhatever the whatever reason
they voted for whoever theyvoted for they had their reasons
for it.
(42:21):
And we may not understand it butwe should not also be gloating
about them suffering.
SPEAKER_04 (42:26):
I don't know what do you think uh what comes to mind
I think I have not like whatwhat comes to mind is like I'm
like I need to do some diggingin the literature and also like
socioculturally aboutvindictiveness yeah um I look at
(42:49):
vindictiveness as a way ofventing and coping right but it
doesn't like it doesn't um likeokay so like as a medical
professional I think aboutthings or I should say as a
(43:09):
veterinary medical professionaland so like I came to veterinary
medicine from the perspective ofenvironmental conservation and
um and food security and foodsovereignty right and that comes
from growing up with theknowledge and story of both um
(43:29):
starvation as a tool of as a asa weapon against populace um as
well as destruction of of soilright and what happens when you
have no infrastructure to feedpeople and then people like
people forget about how manypeople starve to death after
World War II.
And also like the complete likeobliteration of citizenry like
(43:54):
for the purpose of what rightfor the purpose of empire for
the purpose of wealth for thefew this is something that like
one health as the concepts ofhuman animal and people like how
that connects to each otherright and so we think about time
right short acute right versuschronic origins of something how
(44:19):
does something what is ahistorical context what is the
environmental context and Ithink that that takes a lot of
um how should I say potentiallylike intellectual and emotional
masochism to be willing toreally explore those different
(44:41):
dimensions as relates to thefleeting nature of human
humanity right like the fleetinglike mortality right and and I
think my observations becauseI'm very comfortable with
mortality because it has to dowith my upbringing right and and
it's interesting to what I seein some of this were reflected
(45:06):
all over the place regularly isabout a challenge in
relationship with time and achallenge in relationship with
mortality.
So like and like I know that haskind of it's not directly
related but it's it's about howlike coping right that
(45:27):
short-term mechanism of blowingoff steam you're right and
you're right and it is it couldbe a very normal response
absolutely I think my where I'mgoing with that is we are never
going to become more empatheticif we be if we continue to do
this.
SPEAKER_01 (45:45):
And as long as as long as the citizens are stuck
in this us versus them amongeach other it's never going to
change.
And I I think that's kind ofwhere I'm going with it is that
we have to learn with thecitizens I'm not talking about
like the people the the you knowthe imperial people that are not
(46:07):
them right but like with eachother.
I think we need to stop doingthat.
SPEAKER_04 (46:12):
Well I think honestly because it's a
distraction you know like I lookat this kind of stuff any type
of like mouse communicationsthat are c it's um it's a 10 it
takes the attention right so itit is absolutely like every
(46:33):
human life for me as someone whocares about living beings right
like I rescue bugs out of thewater of a pool right like
that's that's the type of personthat I am um and like I
recognize at some point there'slike a futility in a component
of that but that's naturalbecause everything dies right
(46:55):
everything dies.
We will die everything will diehumanity will will potentially
die out like you know why wouldwe be so special as a species as
to not eventually faceextinction um shrug like and in
some ways so some people whoknow me well like joke it's like
(47:16):
a weird type of Buddhistnihilism but a a component of it
is saying that when we lose likewhen we lose historical loved
figures like people we've we'vebeen here before and I think
it's very interesting becausehistorical context is only a
small window into the reality ofwhat happens like what is
(47:37):
important for an individual nowright is it more important for
you to be angry or is it moreimportant for you to turn your
energy into towards yourcommunity I'm I'm just inter
it's more like I'm fundamentallyI'm interested in output like
how do we build how do we feedpeople right how do we make sure
that people are healthy happycontent because none of those
(47:59):
systems are working or are theynone of those systems are
working from the perspective ofyou know when we're talking
about health happinessnourishment the systems that are
being utilized to move largeamounts of resources around oh
we could probably get into ahuge discussion about that I
actually just had a hugediscussion with my mother about
(48:22):
that which was always I had aconversation with her which is
very shocking and surprising.
This sounds like a whole notherepisode a whole nother episode
but but it's the discussion ofthe story of how little the
people with the most wealth careabout everyday people is
(48:42):
probably one of the mostconsistent threads throughout
the history of humanity thatexists.
And I think people need tounderstand that you are just an
everyday person.
Just like the Iranian poet thatyou and I talked about like a
citizen of this country has morein common with an everyday
(49:05):
citizen in Palestine than yourealize than you want to realize
because our lives mean verylittle to people who do not have
a perspective of humanity thetype of people who are
comfortable kicking 10 how manyhow many people are going to be
(49:25):
kicked off of healthcare 10 Idon't want to I don't want to
understate it with the bigbeautiful bill.
Things like that where weunderstand that every strategy
to dehumanize an everyday personis a strategy to dehumanize the
citizen.
SPEAKER_01 (49:42):
And if we go back to basics of teamwork the
expression is you were only asweak as your weakest team member
right so our country is onlygoing to be as strong as the
people that we put at the bottomand that's that's a problem.
I mean we need to stop I agreewith you I mean healthcare
should be a basic human rightand it's not but we fund it in a
(50:06):
different country we subsidizehealthcare in a different
country while at the same timein this country we don't care if
people are homeless.
We don't care if people arestarving we would much rather
argue for more guns than food inschool but that's but that I
think is also part of the thefear that has been created is
that we have to have guns youcould you know you the place
where it took place didn't thecampus wasn't in a carry wasn't
(50:30):
it a carry campus that you couldcarry guns?
Where was the good guy with thegun that stopped him?
Where is this mythical good guywith the gun that always comes
in and stops people?
It doesn't happen but wecontinue to pretend it's
happening so it's I would argueyou know the systems are working
exactly the way they're designedto work which is to make the
ordinary everyday citizens rightdisposable.
SPEAKER_04 (50:53):
Think about what in companies like let's think about
our self-interest as everydaypeople and this is like this is
like the message that I think ismore important to push right
because um before Erica hang onbefore I lose my train of
thought yeah um think about Ithink you're you're probably old
(51:14):
enough to remember this maybenot before human resources was
caused was called that it wascalled personnel and now we call
it human resources.
SPEAKER_01 (51:26):
I mean if you really think about that and we know
that HR does not represent thepeople of the company they
represent the company but thefundamental word is that humans
are resources and it went frompersonnel which is much more
individual and talks more aboutthe the humanity of a person to
(51:48):
now calling us a resource yeah Imean I think that people I think
that people are not necessarilyready um I mean like you and I
work in spaces where weunderstand how everyday people
are dehumanized because we arealways only one step away from
(52:15):
being dehumanized right and sothis concept of like who is
excess humanity well themajority of us are absolutely
that right and um and this isbecause um there is uh well you
(52:40):
know part of this is when wetalk about the transnational
migrant worker people who areand and I know about this
because I work in I have enoughexperience to understand how
food systems work.
SPEAKER_04 (52:55):
So how um the immigrant farm worker right how
they are treated and also whenwe look at construction work.
So Trump engaged in enslavementinternationally for the building
(53:18):
of some of his properties so itis important to understand that
the worker right is you is is isviewed and there are other
examples of this of of how acertain level of of um class um
(53:40):
views everyday people asproperty right and I and I think
this is something that manyfemme bodied or people who are
born as women who are socializedas women um understand about um
being treated as property likethe history of of of women not
(54:06):
being able to have their ownbank accounts not being able to
vote like that was not very longago no it wasn't it was within
some people's lifetime that arelistening to this podcast right
now I mean it's it's not thatlong ago so so in some ways what
we were talking about and whenwe were also talking about
violence and like kind of someof my perspectives on this also
(54:29):
comes from being a femme bodiedperson because fundamentally
that has like awareness ofinternational issues because the
first thing that happens duringconflict or deconstruction of
some sort of semblance of ofsociety is um sexual violence as
a as a weapon of war.
SPEAKER_01 (54:50):
And I and um can I add to that because this takes
this takes me back to and againwe see this play out in history
over and over and over again thevessel virgins do you know about
the Vestal virgins it's notcoming to mind at the moment.
So the Vessel Virgins were uhthey carried a significant role
(55:11):
in the Roman Empire they wererepresentatives of the goddess
Vesta um who was the Greekgoddess Hestia and they were
supposed to be virgins and theywere responsible for keeping
like an eternal flame going andwhat they did was if they if
they were not virgins they wouldbe buried alive because they um
(55:32):
they went against their sacredoath.
However it should be noted thatthat was either consensual or
non-consensual so if they wantedto get rid of the Vestal virgins
who actually carried quite asignificant amount of political
power within the Roman Empirethe men would rape them and then
they would be buried alivebecause they they did not
(55:53):
maintain their their vow.
So this is you know that's justone example of how this has gone
on over and over and over againin countless timelines.
And um you know it it it's justcontinuing to happen right now
and we we see it play out.
So on that note because we arerunning out of time Erica I'm
(56:14):
wondering if what we could do isfor the people that are
listening we talked aboutcompassion and Erica you had
said that compassion was takingempathy and then doing something
productive with it.
So I'm wondering if the peoplewho are listening right now if
you could task yourself withdoing something out of
compassion that is going to makea difference to either one
(56:36):
person or to a community ofpeople I think if we continue
moving that gauge we're gonnasee changes.
Do you agree Eric or do you wantto add anything to that?
SPEAKER_04 (56:46):
Yeah I I mean I think that that that is um that
is something that I could be inagreement with with Charlie Kirk
who comes from an ideology of alot of people who do not think
that someone like me should bealive.
Right like I'm I'm just likereally pointing oh yeah
(57:07):
absolutely I think that'simportant.
Like Charlie Kirk and people whohe was speaking to with some of
his language think people likeme should be dead.
And so I'm emphasizing thatwhere I can say that I can I am
willing to still acknowledgethat compassion is perhaps
(57:28):
something that he and I wouldagree on as something that's
very important.
And my hope and my aspirationand literally how I live my life
is based off of bothdemonstrating and modeling my
path of how I express compassionin the hope that it humanizes me
to other people.
(57:50):
And I think that that'simportant to recognize some of
us have to do more work to behumanized and to be seen as
human in order to receive likecompassion and for people to
care about the violence beingextracted on us as a community.
And so just spend some timethinking about how to expand
(58:16):
your skills in expressingcompassion.
SPEAKER_00 (58:20):
Well said Erica thank you and we look forward to
the next episode thankseverybody and thank you again
(58:48):
for listening this is just areminder that no part of this
podcast can be duplicated orcopied without written consent
from either myself or Wendy.
Thank you again
This podcast is not intended to serve as therapeutic
advice or to replace anyprofessional treatment.
These opinions belong to us anddo not reflect any company or
agency.
SPEAKER_01 (00:29):
Hello, everybody, and welcome back to another
episode of United States ofPTSD.
Erica and I are here today totalk about some of the pretty
horrific things that havehappened over the past couple of
weeks.
We decided to do this episodebecause of that, and we will be
releasing episodes in a weeklyformat, probably for the next
(00:51):
month, again, as a result ofaddressing these issues as they
pop up.
Erica, is there anything youwant to add to that?
SPEAKER_04 (00:57):
I think I'm going to start off by like setting some
intentions for our conversationand our audience and for people
who might be hearing this in thefuture.
So we're living in a time inwhich information is changing
very rapidly.
So at the time of we'rerecording this on September
15th, by the time this isreleased, it's possible that
(01:19):
there's new information outthere that might theoretically
have had some impact on somethings that we were going to
say.
SPEAKER_01 (01:27):
That's a great point.
And I do want to just also sayto the listeners that Eric and I
would love to release contentmore often, but it's, you know,
we both obviously have very busyschedules and it takes a lot of
work behind the scenes to getthese things out.
So thank you, Erica, foractually timestamping it because
I do think it's important to saythe date we're recording it.
(01:48):
So thank you for that.
SPEAKER_04 (01:49):
And and the other thing that I want to make clear
so Matt and I are both rooted inboth like professional and
personal philosophies ofnon-violence.
Also recognize the fact that itis like non-violence is complex,
right?
Because how we definenonviolence for ourselves and
(02:13):
how people experience violenceis definitely not treated the
same and is not valued the same.
And that's part of what thediscussion we're going to have.
Um, we also recognize that weare are basically like citizens
experiencing somethingcollectively.
Neither of us have any expertisein investigative journalism or
(02:40):
like police investigations.
We also have limitations in theknowledge that we have.
So that's I'm going to statethat out that we are people with
experience in fields that giveus assistance in in being able
to have discourse on it that mayhave value to the general
public.
And also, like we are humanbeings that have limits to our
(03:03):
knowledge.
And um, and I think that'simportant because we're talking
about something that involvesgun violence, political
violence, um, assassination ofpublic figures, killings of
non-public figures that havelike happened at a same time.
Right, and how and how life isfundamentally valued differently
(03:28):
in how our society talks aboutlife and the loss of life.
SPEAKER_01 (03:33):
If I could add to that, Erica, and and again,
thank you.
I so appreciate um your umperspective and and the way
because you have a much, Ithink, a more scientific,
logical way of putting thingsdown, which I super appreciate
because I I don't always havethat.
But I do want to add, althoughyou are correct, we don't have
expertise in journalism,investigative reporting, like
(03:55):
any of that stuff.
We both have expertise workingwith people and the impact that
that has, or all of this stuffhas, on the psyche of both
people individually, and thenthe psyche and collective kind
of thought of a society.
So that's the stuff I thinkwe're really gonna focus on.
SPEAKER_04 (04:13):
Yeah.
You know, part of part of thisopening, right, I would say is
the has to do with theassassination of Charlie Kirk.
So um as a little bit ofbackground, Charlie Kirk, and
I'm I'm gonna say this based offof my experience.
So I live in Arizona.
I live in Phoenix, Arizona.
Phoenix, Arizona is where umTurning Point USA, the
(04:35):
organization that Charlie Kirkboth founded uh at 18, um, and
also like that he runs, um, isbased close to where I live.
And Arizona as a state, right,has a lot of complexity.
And he is a political figure.
He's a political operator.
Like there are people who whomight not be aware of the degree
(04:58):
of his political importance topeople who are processing his
assassination who um have strongfeelings about him as a public
figure and um who are likefollowers of what he said,
right?
And of course, as a polarizingfigure, people are going to get
different pieces of informationabout him.
(05:21):
So, what we are seeing is theassassination of a very public
figure that had controversialideas.
And I would invite you to thinkabout that in general, as far as
political violence, right, andhow that happens, because this
is not like a new thing, right?
We can look at these.
(05:41):
Um, and I think it's importantto acknowledge him as a very
influential political figure.
And it means that how peoplerespond to discussions about him
are going to be reflective ofthat.
SPEAKER_01 (05:55):
I want to add one thing to that, Erica, that we
said when we were also talkingto Amy last week.
I think I think it was when wewere talking to Amy, is I I do
want to just remind people thatthe definition of trauma is a
normal response to an abnormalcircumstance.
So his assassination wascertainly an abnormal
circumstance that we do not seein that context every day.
(06:18):
Now, obviously, we see it kindof in the periphery when we talk
about things like schoolshootings because nobody's
actually seeing it televised onTV.
So I think it's different whenyou have that kind of visceral
image behind it.
And I know I had shared with youearlier before we started
recording that when I saw thevideo, it was out of context.
I didn't even know whathappened.
(06:38):
I just received a text and um Iwatched the video, and instantly
it was just this horrificresponse that I had, right?
And how how each person dealswith that response is normal.
SPEAKER_04 (06:53):
Right.
And I so I think that there'ssome unique things, right, as
far as political violence or umgun violence being something
that impacts our societygreatly.
Um, as Matt was mentioning, theamount of spread of the actual
footage of it happening isunusual.
(07:16):
And so that is a a circumstancewith which we are navigating
collectively in trauma.
I saw it as well, and it was,you know, I I am a medical
professional who looks at andhas witnessed and seen pretty
awful things.
I'm also familiar with awfulthings and seeing awful things
(07:38):
due to following globalviolence, right, that occurs
against citizens.
And I've grown up with storiesabout it too.
So in some ways, when I watchedit, like for my personal, like
sharing of my personalprocessing of it, part of it is
a way that I'm also measuringhow numb, you know, some of the
work that I do makes medicalprofessionals, right?
(08:02):
And how and how we are um, so insome ways, it's like this this
also the distinction ofrealizing how we are all
impacted differently byviolence.
And we are all impacteddifferently with the chronicity
of our exposure to it.
And I just my heart is achingfor those young kids who
witnessed that because it's itis it is a trauma that that
(08:25):
changes.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (08:27):
I also want to normalize a different type of
reaction that people might behaving that don't talk about.
There's a thing in trauma calledrepetition compulsion where
somebody does the same thingover and over again because
they're trying to gain masteryof it.
And that often happens inrelationships where somebody
will leave one, you know,abusive relationship and then
end up in a very similarrelationship because they're
(08:48):
they're really trying to kind ofmaster what they're struggling
with.
So there are some people as partof that that might be watching
that video over and over againand might be feeling guilty
about it because they're maybethey're thinking, oh, this is
sick, but there's there's a partof them that's really trying to
grasp what the heck justhappened.
So if you're having thatresponse, I do want to just say
that's a normal response.
(09:09):
So don't judge yourself for thator don't think you're uh crazy
for doing it.
There is no normal response towhat we saw.
SPEAKER_04 (09:17):
And so yeah, and also for people who are
experiencing the relivingness,and so I'm actually I'm I'm
gonna share another personalstory.
Um, there was a a person uh shotby Mesa PD on the highway too
long ago.
And there was an organizer thatI know who who witnessed it.
She was in her car, she saw it.
(09:37):
And the story between whatpolice put forward and what she
directly witnessed.
So they basically said that hehad a gun.
And what it was is that peoplewho were there who saw it saw
that he did not.
So basically, people witness aperson with their hands up as a
citizen get gunned down bypolice, state police violence.
(09:58):
I I was able to haveconversations with her about
what she was probably becauseit's a very when something like
that, when someone witnessessomething like that or
experiences a traumaticexperience, by having
conversations with supportivepeople and having the degree of
the trauma recognize, sayingthat like this is a very
(10:20):
traumatic thing, what you justexperienced, and being attentive
to yourself is important, thatcan prevent it from solidifying
into a PTSD-like state.
And one of the things that wetalked about was which was
considered helpful, which Ithink is really important to
(10:40):
talk about, is that sometimeswhen you're when your brain is
replaying it and you're like,why is my brain replaying it?
Sometimes it has to do with thedegree of compassion, right?
You are trying to understand,like you're like, how could this
uh uh the desire to understandthe degree and severity of what
(11:03):
happened for yourself in orderbecause your heart is wanting to
um do something around thesuffering that you just
witnessed.
SPEAKER_01 (11:15):
Absolutely.
And to also add to that, Erica,because this is an important
distinction with trauma forpeople who are listening, is
that there's the type of traumathat people do not that do not
do well with is the man-madestuff.
So for example, if you survivean earthquake or a hurricane or
a natural disaster, not to saythat people don't suffer and
that they do, there's a certainamount of normalcy behind that.
(11:38):
People know hurricanes happen,people know typhoons happen,
they know earthquakes happen,they accept it.
They struggle with it, but theyaccept it.
When it's something like this,when it's something like
somebody being assassinated fortalking about their opinion or
kids being executed in schools,or a woman on the subway being
stabbed repeatedly, those arethings that are man-made and
they fall outside of our norm.
(12:00):
We don't want to believe thatthat happened.
So those are the things thatpeople struggle with the most.
And it's really hard for peopleto really take those, take that
and kind of incorporate it andrealize that okay, this is not
what the whole world looks like,even though in the moment they
think it is.
SPEAKER_04 (12:16):
Yeah.
So I I want to express Matt howdeeply I appreciate because what
you're talking about, these areall things that were happening
pretty much at the same time,right?
These other uh that happened.
So we had a school shooting inwhich I think there were at
least two kids who were killed.
SPEAKER_01 (12:35):
And that was not covered nearly as much, nor was
the woman the she was fromUkraine, right?
The woman that was on the yes,that was barely covered.
I I didn't even when I saw it, Iwasn't even sure what it was
about until I heard more aboutit.
SPEAKER_04 (12:49):
Right.
And, you know, there issomething like so it is noted
that in in Trump's discussion ofviolence, you know, the
political assassination of uhtwo democratic uh politicians
and representatives was notnamed.
So this is uh a pointing outthat um there is the
(13:16):
politicization of this in whichum it is being utilized to
target and scapegoat uhparticular populations as a
strategy of fascism.
So that's something also to beaware of.
Um, in this particularsituation, what we have is that
(13:40):
the literal statement that thisshooter was trans and they were
not, um, what it turned out wasthat there was an unverified or
there was a report of thingsthat were carved on the bullets.
It was misattributed there, itwas just like arrows, like the
the bullet had arrows carved init in different directions, and
(14:04):
some completely idiot reporterwho should get sued for the
egregiousness of it claimed thatthat was related to
transitology.
And so, what happens in thissituation, you have a cohort of
people right now who are beingtargeted and blamed and who will
(14:24):
um experience danger, violencethat will that is being like
viewed as justified.
So, so a particular cohort forno reason at all was further
dehumanized.
SPEAKER_01 (14:40):
You know what I also think of when we had Zach and
Bree on the show and they weretalking about the use of police
dogs and how it when a dog ischasing after somebody that has
not been convicted, it is not,they they don't have any proof
on them, and then they getmauled by the dog.
Right.
Is it if you look at I mean ifwe just look at the facts of
(15:01):
what's happening in our countryright now, we have armed people,
masked people ripping people offthe streets.
We have media people saying onTV that they think people with
disabilities should be allowedto kill themselves voluntarily
or involuntarily.
SPEAKER_04 (15:16):
And we have uh also the unhoused population, people
facing housing insecurity arebeing dehumanized.
And like there was recently apolitician who had to retract a
statement that where he wasbasically justifying like murder
of unhoused people.
(15:37):
Well, like injection.
SPEAKER_01 (15:38):
Well, that was like the Fox News anchor said that he
had said that they should beallowed that they should be
involuntarily injected andkilled.
I had also just recentlyapologized for that.
So we have that, and then wehave these detention centers
where they're sellingmerchandise for.
Where have we seen this play outin history before?
(15:59):
Like seriously, where we likethis is like play by play, where
have we seen this before?
And the amount of people who areturning a blind eye to that and
saying, Oh, it's not reallyhappening that way, or you know,
this isn't the same thing.
I mean, it's it's literally thesame thing.
SPEAKER_04 (16:15):
I mean, I've I uh you know, there are a lot of us
that have heritage in this torecognize, and like so honestly,
like this is where some of thereaction to someone like Charlie
Kukirk espoused violent ideologyin addition to his very faith
(16:47):
family and interpersonal.
So this is like the distinctionbetween interpersonal violence
and systemic violence, and um Ithink that people have a
tendency to not acknowledge howCharlie Kirk's actions had and
(17:09):
statements were directly relatedto and in support of like state
violence towards particularcohorts, towards violence that
kills just as readily as activeviolence is a gun, but it
(17:32):
doesn't because it doesn't lookthat way, right?
This is this is something thatyou know, for example, the
distinction between um howAmericans were will perceive
like imperialist Japan comparedto our dropping of a nuclear
bomb.
So I think it's it's very likethis is kind of like a I have
explored this because it is ofpersonal impact, right?
(17:54):
Like I am half Sudan German,right?
I have from the beginning of myconsciousness explored the
concept of violence in this waybecause my family comes from a
heritage of a people who werelike the the borderlands people
(18:16):
that were punted between thisand then became part of this
Nazi apparatus that committed agenocide inspired by the
genocide of the United Statesagainst the indigenous people
here, which is inspired by thegenocide of peoples all over the
(18:36):
world.
In some ways, like all of thisis connected because those
things happen through acombination of rhetoric,
political rhetoric, masscommunications, the overton
window shifting.
Um, and these are all terms, ifyou haven't explored them, to
explore them.
Um, because um, you know,regardless like we are all being
(18:59):
acclimated to violence.
SPEAKER_01 (19:01):
Yeah, and that that's been happening for a
while.
Yeah, you know, I was thinkingabout this is just a thought.
I'm not claiming this is fact byany means.
I was just thinking about thisthe other day.
You had that person who saidwhen they were referencing
genocide about killing theoffspring, like it's important
to like kill all the kids sothat they don't, you know,
continue.
But then I think about what'shappening in this country.
(19:22):
So we have vaccines now beingquestioned and being said, like
people don't have to get themanymore.
Well, who dies from diseaseswhen they're not vaccinated?
The elderly and the young.
We also have or and the andpeople who are compromised with
health, and then we have schoolswhere the department of
education is now being defunded,and all of these things are
(19:43):
happening with that, butstudents can't focus because
they're worried about gettingshot in school and they're
starving in school.
So, what are we doing to the thekids in this country?
We are what are we doing?
It it seems a little too similarto me.
That's all.
I mean, it it's different butsimilar.
SPEAKER_04 (20:02):
Well, I think that yeah, yeah.
I I I um as as someone who hashas focused a lot of of my
organizing efforts on youthempowerment, and that's like
when you think about it, liketurning point usa, this is like
Charlie Kirk interacting withyou look like with youth.
(20:27):
And like although I absolutelydisagree with so many things
that he's uh and I'm part ofcommunities that he is actively
harmed by and and that he hascontributed to making a world in
which you know people I careabout are at even more risk,
(20:50):
right?
So it's like direct violenceversus indirect violence.
Um, I can also acknowledge thefact that he was engaged in
youth, right?
And he was engaged in connectingwith youth, and that he did
connect with youth and he didmake young people feel seen and
(21:15):
cared for and their problemscared for.
And as someone who works withyoung people, it's a it's a
vacuum.
It's a vacuum.
People are have in general beenmuch more focused on, and this
is something that I encounter inin my profession, in the
veterinary field, about how likeso many people out in the
profession have just completelydisconnected themselves from
(21:39):
what the young people are havingto grow up in and navigate by
themselves in isolation.
That is a a population that isdiscontent, that is not having
their needs met, that is that issuffering, is going to engage
very greatly with anyone whochooses to make them feel seen.
SPEAKER_01 (22:02):
I think that would go nicely with the conversation
we had before we startedrecording about empathy and
compassion.
SPEAKER_00 (22:09):
Right?
SPEAKER_01 (22:10):
Because that because you know, when you're engaging
with a group of people who don'tfeel heard, there's certainly a
level of empathy that goes inwith that.
And, you know, we have createdsuch a, you know, you were
talking earlier about when youdo professional work, how
sometimes it can desensitizeyou.
And I thought about when mygrandfather passed away, I was
in my early 20s, and my cousinwas a nurse and he was on
(22:32):
hospice care.
And I remember she was helpingto take care of him, but it was
really clinical.
And she seemed to switch roles.
She went from being like afamily member to almost like a
caretaker.
And I remember like aprofessional caretaker.
And I remember thinking at thetime, well, like, how is she not
being affected by this?
Right.
So I think that is a complicatedquestion.
(22:55):
And I'm sure she was affectedafterwards, yeah.
Like, but because you know, Iknow that obviously through my
own experiences, but when wetalk about empathy and
compassion, I think that it'simportant to define those two
things, and it's as we talkedabout before.
So let's do that.
SPEAKER_04 (23:10):
When we're talking about there, there there's this
discussion, right?
Because of course, now in theyou know, public square where
conversations are happening,when we're talking about three
concepts sympathy, empathy, andcompassion.
So, and and this has to do withthe fact that there are people
(23:33):
who disagree with Charlie Kirk,who are saying that he is the
person who said, you know, thathe hated the word empathy.
Um and then cohorts who aresaying that there was a
misattribution or that the quotewas taken out of context.
The whole thing statement fromhim is along the lines of how
(23:58):
much he disagrees with the wordempathy because it implies that
you can understand anotherperson's experience and that uh
sympathy is more appropriate asa general state of the human
condition, that like theexistence of empathy is
basically a lie, and that umcompassion is what he thinks is
(24:21):
most important.
So this is very interestingbecause there are things that I
both agree and disagree with,and part of that I think the
irony is that compassion itselfis described and also not very
well studied.
Uh, last time I wrote apresentation where I looked at
(24:42):
the literature about this.
But compassion as expression inrelation to most of our
knowledge of it is comes fromreligion and um the expression
of action around the alleviationof suffering.
So this is definitely somethingthat is like very, very
prominent within Buddhist theoryand different aspects is the
(25:04):
concept of the observation ofsuffering, the seeking to
understand that suffering, whichwould be where we speak on
empathy, and then taking actionto alleviate that suffering.
And so this is where some ofCharlie Kirk's words and actions
can separate.
(25:25):
Also, in the irony of sayingthat he doesn't believe in
empathy, but believes incompassion, um, is how should I
say, one could um, but I knowsometimes I get a little bit too
precise in like the origin ofwords and their definitions, and
it's all made up anyway.
But I think that's made it up,right?
SPEAKER_01 (25:47):
I think it it's helpful though to kind of flesh
out those nuances of everything.
When we're talking aboutempathy, my experience with that
is a lot of people don'tnecessarily understand what that
means, and they will usedisplays that are maybe
disingenuous, but but call itempathy.
And with sympathy, sympathy I'vealways perceived more as a pity
(26:09):
position.
It's your it's like a powerposition.
You're kind of above somebodylooking down and saying, like, I
feel sorry for you down there,which is not always super
helpful, depending on thecircumstances.
SPEAKER_04 (26:20):
Well, I think that sympathy is honest and it's
encompassing that we might notbe able to understand another
person's experience, right?
But as uh political figures arelikely to do, they will take
something to the extreme.
In that the statement of it isimpossible within the human
(26:42):
condition to be able tounderstand another person
because you are not in theirhead, right?
And that is very distinct fromthis concept of a unifying
humanity, right?
So, what Charlie Kirk is isassuming in this context is that
the hyper-individuality thathumans are so individualized
(27:03):
that they are not connected inany way, shape, or form, in
which empathy is possible.
SPEAKER_01 (27:08):
And we've created that though, right?
I mean, the whole sense ofindividualism.
SPEAKER_04 (27:12):
Well, I would say American culture hasn't created.
SPEAKER_01 (27:15):
Right.
What I meant we, that's what Iwas referencing.
Like it's it's thisindividualism that would be the
antithesis of somebody focusingon empathy, because it's all
about like how you youdisconnect from people.
And that is not where it is.
You don't have to go through thesame experience that somebody
went through to understand thefeeling behind what they're
going through.
So, you know, you don't likerelational, relational, right?
SPEAKER_04 (27:39):
To put yourself in that position to the best of
your ability.
SPEAKER_01 (27:45):
But if you connect to the feeling, that's what's
important.
So, for example, if somebodyloses their parent, you don't
have to lose a parent tounderstand what it's like to
grieve.
Right.
And that's that's thecommonality behind it.
You might not understand whatit's like to grieve a parent,
but you know what raw grieffeels like.
And instead of focusing on that,we focus on the the separation.
(28:09):
Like, well, you can't get itbecause you didn't have this
exact same scenario.
But I don't think you need tohave the scenario to relate to
the feeling.
SPEAKER_04 (28:18):
Yeah, and in in this way, I can reflect, and and so
it's interesting to me because Ihave people in my life who
resonated with some of thethings that Charlie Kirk had to
say, and depending on whether ornot they were also in spaces
that were offering up thecritique, and I mean like
(28:42):
critique as in far as likeintellectual critique or like
under like unpacking rhetoric,unpacking um like actual meaning
of these these things.
So even in the context of whatCharlie Kirk presented around
the limitations ofhuman-to-human connection and
making empathy possible, right?
(29:03):
Like I can point out through aprocess of deconstruction of
what he's saying in comparisonto other sources of where there
are limitations in his thinkingand as being expressed, or
things that are not necessarilymaybe on first pass sound really
(29:25):
good, but have other things thatare worthy of discussion.
And the issue is with anypolitical figure or any sort of,
and this is like I I try andbring up idolatry, right, to
people in religious spaces asfar as when the language of any
(29:46):
individual person becomessacrosanct, right, or free of
critique.
And that is that is what Iobserve um American culture to
be very.
susceptible to because peoplehave on average less exposure or
(30:06):
less like um exploration ofother forms of like of culture
right so where I just said likewhat the issue with what he says
in this is saying that humansare incapable of connecting with
one another.
That idolatry that you justtalked about talked about that
echoes again what Amy said rightand how cults start when you
(30:29):
start perceiving what one personsays or what a group of people
say as the absolute truth andnothing nothing goes beyond that
that absolute truth yeah thatmakes a lot of sense um so it's
been it's been interestingbecause like um you know I think
(30:53):
where I see right now is alsopeople not necessarily if if
what they what people talk aboutabout Charlie Kirk being so
resonant with them is talkingabout how he made them feel
about connection and aboutcommunity and about connecting
with family and aboutforgiveness and all these things
(31:15):
and yet are unable to utilizewhat they are proposing as his
theories that they are wantingto live their lives by and their
ethic of how they treat otherpeople.
SPEAKER_01 (31:26):
And what we see is the selection right the
selection of how things areapplied who is treated as I I
think the inherent conflictthere is that if somebody is
hearing your space, if somebodyis holding it and saying like
okay I understand what you'retalking about and I I can give
attention to that and helping tovalidate somebody is one thing
(31:49):
but validating people byinvalidating other people is not
where we want to be andunfortunately that was the that
was part of his message was thatI can hear you but and what I'm
hearing you is that you'redifferent and better than all of
these other people.
And that in itself causes moredivisiveness and a problem.
And I I I also want to say thistoo because I think it's
(32:12):
important to understand that wecan hold two feelings at once
and a lot of people are um beingguilted for this right having
mixed feelings about it.
We go back to empathy andsympathy.
You can sympathize with whatwith his family and what
happened and say like okaynobody deserves that.
But at the same time it's okayto not have empathy for that if
(32:32):
what he was talking about issomething that would have
adversely impacted you or thepeople that you care about.
So it's okay to have both ofthose feelings at the same time
it doesn't make you a a badperson it doesn't make you're
not glorifying somebody gettingkilled you're honoring the two
parts of you that are like okayI I can I can sympathize with
with this but at the same time Ijust don't have the same level
(32:54):
of empathy that I would becausethat person was directly
attacking me.
SPEAKER_04 (32:59):
Yeah I mean I I I think what I also see in
addition to that as far as likein um as far as like cohorts the
I think it's more like this deepbreath is at all of the other
violence that goesunacknowledged.
Right because this is like thethe pedestalization of
(33:23):
individuals who it's just likelike the the type of of violence
that is cared about right wedon't even like no one is say to
recognize that political figuresare going to result in a half
(33:44):
mast but not you know at thesame time we're seeing how like
but only certain honoring spaceof the pulse map but that's but
there's only certain politicalfigures as you pointed out
earlier with the two democraticlawmakers that didn't happen.
SPEAKER_01 (33:59):
So it's even not just with lawmakers across the
board or or or political figuresit's just particular ones and I
made a I mean it was kind of ajoke but it's kind of the
reality of it is people weresaying well how come we don't do
half master for school shootingsand I said if we did the flag
would never come back up.
It would stay down literally allyear long.
(34:20):
And that's the truth.
SPEAKER_04 (34:21):
I mean maybe that's what we need for people to see
that possibly um yeah I thinkthat also like for me I'm living
in an area where there's a lotof organizing around the grief
(34:44):
right like his remains are beinginterred here um his his remains
are in the city where I amliving and um the like we'll say
that perhaps this part or thisarea is the center of grief at
the moment because he was adirect member of this community.
(35:07):
And you know in myself assomeone who sees this like
outpouring of grief for a singleindividual in the midst of
observing you know two genocidesthat like um going on like the
genocide of the Palestinianpeople.
And I say this because the WestBank is actively experiencing a
(35:31):
lot now and it will continue todo so until until uh the powers
that be or the people put enoughpressure on the powers that be.
Watching all of this empathypour out and and this like like
anger like the the righteousanger of like how dare you
(35:52):
comment on my grief and how fewPalestinian Americans are are
afforded that when we have youknow Palestinian American
children imprisoned in inIsraeli torture prisons.
SPEAKER_01 (36:07):
Or or being handcuffed and buried alive
which this that's happened orbeing shot with snipers or being
raped or all of that stuffthat's going on daily.
SPEAKER_04 (36:16):
And and also when we think about like the Sudan and
Congo and like in in in thesethings where like child children
human beings are are beingmurdered on a mass scale for for
gold and rare earth mineralsthat go into our phones and
(36:41):
people are like talking aboutthe iPhone 17 like the new
iPhone coming out right so for Ithink for me right what I have
been like sitting and observingthis and trying to like process
you know my experience of thisand my feelings of this because
you know I'm not really um I'mtrying to stay focused on my
work uh the people who I'mdirectly connected to that are
(37:06):
are suffering and also thelarger scale suffering that is
going on.
Like it is a little bit of adeep breath sigh right about how
we focus on the quote unquotekings of today because that's
what these individual or queensright yeah like people with such
(37:28):
resources such power right thatthey take over our own capacity
to think about our owncommunities.
SPEAKER_01 (38:06):
Thoughts and prayers and then they just kind of
terrible it which is the mostdisingenuous thing.
And and I have to tell you thething that pisses me off the
most Erica is the same peoplewho are talking about um Charlie
Kirk and all of this stuff havebeen silent on every other
atrocity that's happeningabsolutely silent and they still
(38:29):
continue to be silent.
Yeah and that that part to me isinfuriating.
SPEAKER_04 (38:34):
I mean I think it's interesting to so like I think
it in that we concealed like adistinction um where I would say
like my I don't I don't know ifthis is my like jaded or being
numb right like for me it islike such old news about
atrocity on like what we calllike the people of global
(38:57):
majority right like AsianAfrican Arab all different
identities like the global southother like Korea like all these
places like our global sufferingunder the bombardment starvation
(39:19):
mass murder rape like uh all ofthese things that like have been
happening to people like us oreven like if you think about
like trans gender nonconformingLGBTQIA like like we have
literally been existing inbetween the gear like we are we
(39:40):
are what made it through thegears of of of just incredible
violence and so in some ways Ihave a hard time like I can I
can be like I recognize that itis shocking and and also like I
(40:01):
am so used to how like whiteeuropean how little white
european culture thinks aboutmass murder or like such
incredible violence that like Ijust I don't know like I I I
feel like I'm like I'm sorry Iam sorry because I understand
(40:22):
the losing of that reality thesemblance of safety is like a
difficult thing.
SPEAKER_01 (40:31):
And also there are many people like me who have
like never lived in a realitywhere we didn't associate
humanity with scales of violencethat are um when you talk about
(40:51):
how the um LGBTQ community andwe talk about um I forgot the
exact verbiage you used but itmakes me think about up I think
it was a couple years ago when Ilearned that during the
Holocaust when the Allied troopscame in and freed ever freed all
of the people from theconcentration camps that gay men
went to prison because it was itwas considered a crime.
(41:14):
So they were freed last and theywere sent to prison and we don't
talk about that.
There was also something calledthe Singing Forest which I never
heard of before which is wherethey were impaling gay men on
stakes that is also somethingthat is not talked about.
So it has there are aspects ofit that it's still happening
right like in in these in thesegroups that we're talking about.
(41:39):
Another thing I saw and I'mcurious what your opinion on
this is is the when we'retalking about all the cuts to
farms right and all of that thatthat's happening and I'm seeing
responses for people saying wellthat's what you voted for so
good for you now you suffer itbothers.
The the thing that bothers meabout that is two things.
(42:01):
First of all one not everyfarmer out there voted for the
current administration so that'sjust globalizing people together
again.
But why do we continue to ummake fun of people suffering?
Like they don't deserve becausewhatever the whatever reason
they voted for whoever theyvoted for they had their reasons
for it.
(42:21):
And we may not understand it butwe should not also be gloating
about them suffering.
SPEAKER_04 (42:26):
I don't know what do you think uh what comes to mind
I think I have not like whatwhat comes to mind is like I'm
like I need to do some diggingin the literature and also like
socioculturally aboutvindictiveness yeah um I look at
(42:49):
vindictiveness as a way ofventing and coping right but it
doesn't like it doesn't um likeokay so like as a medical
professional I think aboutthings or I should say as a
(43:09):
veterinary medical professionaland so like I came to veterinary
medicine from the perspective ofenvironmental conservation and
um and food security and foodsovereignty right and that comes
from growing up with theknowledge and story of both um
(43:29):
starvation as a tool of as a asa weapon against populace um as
well as destruction of of soilright and what happens when you
have no infrastructure to feedpeople and then people like
people forget about how manypeople starve to death after
World War II.
And also like the complete likeobliteration of citizenry like
(43:54):
for the purpose of what rightfor the purpose of empire for
the purpose of wealth for thefew this is something that like
one health as the concepts ofhuman animal and people like how
that connects to each otherright and so we think about time
right short acute right versuschronic origins of something how
(44:19):
does something what is ahistorical context what is the
environmental context and Ithink that that takes a lot of
um how should I say potentiallylike intellectual and emotional
masochism to be willing toreally explore those different
(44:41):
dimensions as relates to thefleeting nature of human
humanity right like the fleetinglike mortality right and and I
think my observations becauseI'm very comfortable with
mortality because it has to dowith my upbringing right and and
it's interesting to what I seein some of this were reflected
(45:06):
all over the place regularly isabout a challenge in
relationship with time and achallenge in relationship with
mortality.
So like and like I know that haskind of it's not directly
related but it's it's about howlike coping right that
(45:27):
short-term mechanism of blowingoff steam you're right and
you're right and it is it couldbe a very normal response
absolutely I think my where I'mgoing with that is we are never
going to become more empatheticif we be if we continue to do
this.
SPEAKER_01 (45:45):
And as long as as long as the citizens are stuck
in this us versus them amongeach other it's never going to
change.
And I I think that's kind ofwhere I'm going with it is that
we have to learn with thecitizens I'm not talking about
like the people the the you knowthe imperial people that are not
(46:07):
them right but like with eachother.
I think we need to stop doingthat.
SPEAKER_04 (46:12):
Well I think honestly because it's a
distraction you know like I lookat this kind of stuff any type
of like mouse communicationsthat are c it's um it's a 10 it
takes the attention right so itit is absolutely like every
(46:33):
human life for me as someone whocares about living beings right
like I rescue bugs out of thewater of a pool right like
that's that's the type of personthat I am um and like I
recognize at some point there'slike a futility in a component
of that but that's naturalbecause everything dies right
(46:55):
everything dies.
We will die everything will diehumanity will will potentially
die out like you know why wouldwe be so special as a species as
to not eventually faceextinction um shrug like and in
some ways so some people whoknow me well like joke it's like
(47:16):
a weird type of Buddhistnihilism but a a component of it
is saying that when we lose likewhen we lose historical loved
figures like people we've we'vebeen here before and I think
it's very interesting becausehistorical context is only a
small window into the reality ofwhat happens like what is
(47:37):
important for an individual nowright is it more important for
you to be angry or is it moreimportant for you to turn your
energy into towards yourcommunity I'm I'm just inter
it's more like I'm fundamentallyI'm interested in output like
how do we build how do we feedpeople right how do we make sure
that people are healthy happycontent because none of those
(47:59):
systems are working or are theynone of those systems are
working from the perspective ofyou know when we're talking
about health happinessnourishment the systems that are
being utilized to move largeamounts of resources around oh
we could probably get into ahuge discussion about that I
actually just had a hugediscussion with my mother about
(48:22):
that which was always I had aconversation with her which is
very shocking and surprising.
This sounds like a whole notherepisode a whole nother episode
but but it's the discussion ofthe story of how little the
people with the most wealth careabout everyday people is
(48:42):
probably one of the mostconsistent threads throughout
the history of humanity thatexists.
And I think people need tounderstand that you are just an
everyday person.
Just like the Iranian poet thatyou and I talked about like a
citizen of this country has morein common with an everyday
(49:05):
citizen in Palestine than yourealize than you want to realize
because our lives mean verylittle to people who do not have
a perspective of humanity thetype of people who are
comfortable kicking 10 how manyhow many people are going to be
(49:25):
kicked off of healthcare 10 Idon't want to I don't want to
understate it with the bigbeautiful bill.
Things like that where weunderstand that every strategy
to dehumanize an everyday personis a strategy to dehumanize the
citizen.
SPEAKER_01 (49:42):
And if we go back to basics of teamwork the
expression is you were only asweak as your weakest team member
right so our country is onlygoing to be as strong as the
people that we put at the bottomand that's that's a problem.
I mean we need to stop I agreewith you I mean healthcare
should be a basic human rightand it's not but we fund it in a
(50:06):
different country we subsidizehealthcare in a different
country while at the same timein this country we don't care if
people are homeless.
We don't care if people arestarving we would much rather
argue for more guns than food inschool but that's but that I
think is also part of the thefear that has been created is
that we have to have guns youcould you know you the place
where it took place didn't thecampus wasn't in a carry wasn't
(50:30):
it a carry campus that you couldcarry guns?
Where was the good guy with thegun that stopped him?
Where is this mythical good guywith the gun that always comes
in and stops people?
It doesn't happen but wecontinue to pretend it's
happening so it's I would argueyou know the systems are working
exactly the way they're designedto work which is to make the
ordinary everyday citizens rightdisposable.
SPEAKER_04 (50:53):
Think about what in companies like let's think about
our self-interest as everydaypeople and this is like this is
like the message that I think ismore important to push right
because um before Erica hang onbefore I lose my train of
thought yeah um think about Ithink you're you're probably old
(51:14):
enough to remember this maybenot before human resources was
caused was called that it wascalled personnel and now we call
it human resources.
SPEAKER_01 (51:26):
I mean if you really think about that and we know
that HR does not represent thepeople of the company they
represent the company but thefundamental word is that humans
are resources and it went frompersonnel which is much more
individual and talks more aboutthe the humanity of a person to
(51:48):
now calling us a resource yeah Imean I think that people I think
that people are not necessarilyready um I mean like you and I
work in spaces where weunderstand how everyday people
are dehumanized because we arealways only one step away from
(52:15):
being dehumanized right and sothis concept of like who is
excess humanity well themajority of us are absolutely
that right and um and this isbecause um there is uh well you
(52:40):
know part of this is when wetalk about the transnational
migrant worker people who areand and I know about this
because I work in I have enoughexperience to understand how
food systems work.
SPEAKER_04 (52:55):
So how um the immigrant farm worker right how
they are treated and also whenwe look at construction work.
So Trump engaged in enslavementinternationally for the building
(53:18):
of some of his properties so itis important to understand that
the worker right is you is is isviewed and there are other
examples of this of of how acertain level of of um class um
(53:40):
views everyday people asproperty right and I and I think
this is something that manyfemme bodied or people who are
born as women who are socializedas women um understand about um
being treated as property likethe history of of of women not
(54:06):
being able to have their ownbank accounts not being able to
vote like that was not very longago no it wasn't it was within
some people's lifetime that arelistening to this podcast right
now I mean it's it's not thatlong ago so so in some ways what
we were talking about and whenwe were also talking about
violence and like kind of someof my perspectives on this also
(54:29):
comes from being a femme bodiedperson because fundamentally
that has like awareness ofinternational issues because the
first thing that happens duringconflict or deconstruction of
some sort of semblance of ofsociety is um sexual violence as
a as a weapon of war.
SPEAKER_01 (54:50):
And I and um can I add to that because this takes
this takes me back to and againwe see this play out in history
over and over and over again thevessel virgins do you know about
the Vestal virgins it's notcoming to mind at the moment.
So the Vessel Virgins were uhthey carried a significant role
(55:11):
in the Roman Empire they wererepresentatives of the goddess
Vesta um who was the Greekgoddess Hestia and they were
supposed to be virgins and theywere responsible for keeping
like an eternal flame going andwhat they did was if they if
they were not virgins they wouldbe buried alive because they um
(55:32):
they went against their sacredoath.
However it should be noted thatthat was either consensual or
non-consensual so if they wantedto get rid of the Vestal virgins
who actually carried quite asignificant amount of political
power within the Roman Empirethe men would rape them and then
they would be buried alivebecause they they did not
(55:53):
maintain their their vow.
So this is you know that's justone example of how this has gone
on over and over and over againin countless timelines.
And um you know it it it's justcontinuing to happen right now
and we we see it play out.
So on that note because we arerunning out of time Erica I'm
(56:14):
wondering if what we could do isfor the people that are
listening we talked aboutcompassion and Erica you had
said that compassion was takingempathy and then doing something
productive with it.
So I'm wondering if the peoplewho are listening right now if
you could task yourself withdoing something out of
compassion that is going to makea difference to either one
(56:36):
person or to a community ofpeople I think if we continue
moving that gauge we're gonnasee changes.
Do you agree Eric or do you wantto add anything to that?
SPEAKER_04 (56:46):
Yeah I I mean I think that that that is um that
is something that I could be inagreement with with Charlie Kirk
who comes from an ideology of alot of people who do not think
that someone like me should bealive.
Right like I'm I'm just likereally pointing oh yeah
(57:07):
absolutely I think that'simportant.
Like Charlie Kirk and people whohe was speaking to with some of
his language think people likeme should be dead.
And so I'm emphasizing thatwhere I can say that I can I am
willing to still acknowledgethat compassion is perhaps
(57:28):
something that he and I wouldagree on as something that's
very important.
And my hope and my aspirationand literally how I live my life
is based off of bothdemonstrating and modeling my
path of how I express compassionin the hope that it humanizes me
to other people.
(57:50):
And I think that that'simportant to recognize some of
us have to do more work to behumanized and to be seen as
human in order to receive likecompassion and for people to
care about the violence beingextracted on us as a community.
And so just spend some timethinking about how to expand
(58:16):
your skills in expressingcompassion.
SPEAKER_00 (58:20):
Well said Erica thank you and we look forward to
the next episode thankseverybody and thank you again
(58:48):
for listening this is just areminder that no part of this
podcast can be duplicated orcopied without written consent
from either myself or Wendy.
Thank you again
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