S 3 E: 7 From Trauma to Triumph: A Police Officer's Story

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How does a seasoned police officer navigate the mental health challenges that come with the job? Captain Adam Myers, an officer with over two decades of experience, opens up about his journey through trauma and recovery in the latest episode of United States of PTSD. He takes us on a gripping ride through the aftermath of a critical incident where he was forced to use deadly force, sharing the emotional turmoil and complexities of such life-altering events. Adam's story is not just about the incident itself but also about the unhealthy coping mechanisms it triggered and his eventual path to healing.

Throughout this compelling episode, we explore the broader themes of mental health in law enforcement, particularly the stigma that surrounds it in male-dominated professions. Adam candidly discusses his struggles with addiction and self-harm, shedding light on the destructive behaviors that often follow traumatic experiences. His journey serves as a powerful reminder of the importance of therapy, medication, and open communication in overcoming these barriers. With the help of a supportive friend, Amy, Adam found his way back to a healthier state of mind, highlighting the pivotal role of compassionate leadership and peer support in fostering a supportive environment for officers.

Listeners will gain insights into the evolving perceptions of law enforcement and the public scrutiny officers face, which adds another layer to their mental health challenges. This episode is a call to action for open discussions about mental health, encouraging both officers and the public to approach these conversations with empathy and understanding. Join us for an eye-opening exploration of the mental health struggles faced by first responders, and learn how we can all contribute to a culture of support and awareness.

From Capt Meyers:

The Aftermath: My Life after a Critical Incident

 

My name is Adam and I have been a Police Officer in Wisconsin for 23 years. I am also a Certified Peer Specialist in Wisconsin. I began my law enforcement career in 2001 after serving as an active duty United States Army Military Policeman. In April 2016, I was involved in a critical incident that changed my life forever when I used deadly force on someone who armed themselves with a hatchet inside a busy department store. This person died.

I suffered in silence for many years after my critical incident and I am ashamed for the ways I poorly coped. I still feel shame for the ways I coped and treated people. I find it hard to believe that nobody realized or even had a gut feeling that I was not doing well. I could not have been that good at hiding my poor coping strategies, or was I? I have always wondered if people were slowly watching me self-destruct because they did not know what to say to me, how to help me, or they simply did not want to get involved.

It has taken me many years to get back on track. There are many different coping strategies people may use after experiencing trauma. They may be good and healthy, or they may be bad and unhealthy. My coping strategies were bad, unhealthy, self-destructive, and dangerous. I used alcohol, marijuana, casual sex, and self-harm as some of my poor coping strategies for years after my critical incident.

My poor

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:15):
This podcast is not intended to serve as therapeutic
advice or to replace anyprofessional treatment.
These opinions belong to us anddo not reflect any company or
agency.
Hello everybody, Welcome backto another episode of the United
States of PTSD.
This is Matt, and I amprivileged to have a guest
speaker with me today.
Captain Myers, If you couldintroduce yourself, that would

(00:38):
be fantastic.

Speaker 2 (00:40):
Thank you, matt.
My name is Adam Myers.
I'm a police officer, actuallya police captain and I've been
in law enforcement for 23 years.

Speaker 1 (00:48):
And you have quite a powerful story about the impact
of mental health on I'm justgoing to use the term first
responder because I knowobviously it happens with police
officers, but it happens withfirefighters and EMTs and, I
think, anything that falls underthat category.
You have an incredibly powerfulstory.
As I said, I read it a coupleof times and I mean personally.

(01:08):
I think you're a role model forwhat we would like to see
mental health look like in therealm of first responders.
Could you tell, if you don'tmind, could you tell your story
about what happened and kind ofwhere it went?

Speaker 2 (01:23):
Absolutely.
I'll start from the beginning.
You know, as far back as I canremember, I've always wanted to
be a police officer and when Iwas a little boy I lived in the
city of Racine, which is a cityin Wisconsin, and I lived on
Highway 20, which is alsoWashington Avenue, one of the
main thoroughfares in and out ofthe city of Racine, and you
know, police cars, ambulances,fire trucks would fly by the

(01:45):
house.
So I'd quickly run up to thewindow and look outside to see
if I saw a police car, becausethat's what I was interested in
more than the ambulance or thefire trucks.
And my parents said that thefirst time I saw a police car go
by, I called it an ER carbecause of the sirens.
So I was like it's an ER car,an ER car, you know.
So you know my parents saidthat I saw a police officer get

(02:09):
out of a police vehicle, a squadcar, the very first time.
I was just in awe and I lookedat them and I said an ER car man
, an ER car man.
And I, from as far back as Ican remember, I wanted to grow
up and be an ER car man, whichwas a police officer, which I
did.
So I took several steps that Ithought would help me do that,
you know graduate from highschool, graduate from college,

(02:30):
go into the military.
And then I was actually hiredby the city of Racine, my
hometown, as my first police job.
So it was great, you know, Iwas a police officer for the
city that I've lived, worked andplayed all my entire life, you
know, and so it was pretty good.
And so I moved up north.
I was married at the time and Imoved up north and worked in a

(02:51):
community between two largercommunities and in 2016, april
8th 2016, I was involved in acritical incident.
I used deadly force againstsomebody who armed themselves
with a hatchet inside ourWalmart store.
So I was at the policedepartment working on a retail
theft report and I getdispatched to Walmart and it was

(03:13):
just the basic call.
There were two chaperonesinside Walmart with one of their
clients that were refusing toleave the store and they wanted
assistance from police torespond and help them do that.
And we get calls like that allthe time.
We get calls to residences,restaurants, retail stores, you
name it.
So it wasn't that big of a deal.

(03:34):
It wasn't emergent by any means.
I wasn't thinking that, youknow, a few minutes later I'd be
shooting somebody.
It just seemed like just abasic, normal call.
So while I was responding,dispatch notified me and they
kind of kept this.
One of the chaperones contacted911 and they kept them on the
911 line.

(03:55):
So they kept updating me as towhat was going on in Walmart and
they told me that you know,this client is continuing to
refuse to leave the store andnow they're going back to the
sporting goods section where sheripped open a hatchet from the
package and then she was walkingaround the store damaging
merchandise and threateningcustomers.

(04:15):
So I arrived at Walmart and Imade contact with her in the
health and beauty aisle it wasone of the main aisles and you
know it was Friday 5.15 pm.
There was hundreds of people inthe store.
It was a very busy Fridayevening and I remember making
multiple verbal commands for herto stop and drop the hatchet.

(04:37):
She just wouldn't listen to me.
I couldn't believe she wasn'tlistening to me and she kept
walking towards me andeventually I shot her twice and
she fell to the ground andseveral hours later she died
after surgery.
It's my understanding that shehad some internal bleeding and
they couldn't stop the bleedingand then, unfortunately, she
passed away.
And you know, I didn't find outabout that until the next day,

(05:02):
after everything was done atWalmart and the police
department.
On that Friday I went home andthe first thing I remember doing
was walking in my front doorand kneeling down next to my
love seat and praying to Godthat she wouldn't die.
And I didn't want her to die, Ididn't want to shoot her.
I know I did the right thing.
I don't have any regrets.
I haven't second guessed myself, but it's just not something.

(05:26):
I woke up thinking, hey, I wantto shoot somebody today.
That's just not.
It's not me.
And I know, when you become apolice officer, is it a
possibility?
Sure, but is it probable?
Maybe not, probably not.
You know there's policeofficers that go their entire
career without shooting somebody.
Well, I, I happened to be onethat that ended up shooting
somebody, and and the next day,Adam, how, um, how, cause you

(05:50):
had just started, right.

Speaker 1 (05:51):
So like how long were you on the police force at this
point, Was it?

Speaker 2 (05:55):
I had been with that police department for, I want to
say, 12 or 13 years.

Speaker 1 (06:00):
Oh, it was that long Okay.

Speaker 2 (06:01):
Yeah, it was.
I had been with that departmentfor for quite some time and um,
so you know the the followingday I wanted to stick to some
kind of normalcy in my in myroutine and my schedule.
I had the weekend off.
They gave me the weekend offand I thought to myself I'm
going to go pick up my daughterfrom my ex-wife's house, I'm

(06:23):
going to go get a haircut,something normal.
I wanted to kind of stick towhat I knew, because I was
stressed, lots of anxiety, lotsof unknowns, and I was worried.
And then the chief called me andthe reason why he called me was
he wanted to meet with me inperson as soon as possible.
And the reason why is becausehe got word that the person I

(06:43):
shot had died and when I toldhim I wasn't sure how quickly I
could come in and speak with him.
He told me on the phone thatyou know she had died, and the
reason why he did that was hedidn't want me to find out
through social media or the newsmedia.
And I really appreciate that.
And you know, later on in theday I did go and speak with him

(07:06):
and but after that it justslowly, progressively, got worse
for my poor coping.

Speaker 1 (07:14):
Adam, do you think you were?
Because when you're telling thestory and this is so true of
PTSD you have very vivid detailsabout it and you remember, like
what aisle it was, you rememberwhat time it was.
Like you remember all thesedetails.
Do you do you think as part ofyour training, do they do enough
to prepare you for forsituations like that, like how

(07:34):
to deal with it afterwards?

Speaker 2 (07:35):
My guess is probably not right, cause I don't think
so, and the reason why I don'tthink so is because everybody
responds different, differentlyto stress and anxiety and
depression and PTSD and all that.
They train us very well here inWisconsin with use of force and
they train you when to use it,when not to use it, all the
different levels of force.

(07:56):
And that's so important, alsobecause there's a lot that I
don't remember.
You know, walmart has manycameras throughout the retail
store and I watched myself oncamera doing what I was trained
to do but not rememberingcertain things.
I could look at the camera andsay, yeah, that's me, that's me
doing that, that's me steppingbackward and shooting and doing

(08:18):
this, that and the other thing,but I don't remember that.
So that's why training is soimportant and it's so important
for for first responders um,because you bring up a great.

Speaker 1 (08:29):
You bring up a great point.
By the way, I worked withsomebody who actually witnessed
a person die in front of them.
They were, they were kind ofinvolved not directly, but they
were involved in it and theirmemory was they saw the person
get up and walk away, eventhough the person was dead.
Right, and the mind does allthese intense things to protect

(08:50):
us so that we don't have to dealwith what's happening at the
moment.
So that's so normal.
Everything you're talking aboutis so normal.

Speaker 2 (08:59):
Yeah, there's many things that I don't remember.
All the witnesses at Walmartthey remember she was walking
towards me and the last thingshe did was lunge at me and
raise the hatchet above her head.
Well, the last thing I rememberis her walking towards me
making this figure eight,swooshing kind of movement with
the hatchet.
I don't remember her lungingand putting the hatchet above

(09:20):
her head and it's been almostnine years and I still don't
remember that.
But everybody else watched itand said, yep, that's what
happened.
So you know, I'm not apsychologist, I don't know
everything about the brain, butI hear that you know, your brain
protects you from and to thisday I don't remember that.
I don't have flashbacks of herlunging or raising the hatchet
above her head.

(09:41):
I don't have nightmares.
So, yeah, that part of thebrain it's been protecting me,
which I'm grateful for.
But yeah, I mean it's justeverything changed.
Once the chief told me that shehad died and I remember thinking
this changes everything.
I actually killed somebody.

(10:01):
Now, now what, and I understandthe totality of it all and it
was a tragic event.
It truly was, and I know I didthe right thing, but pulling the
trigger when I pulled thetrigger, I know I changed not
only my life but her life, thepeople in Walmart who witnessed

(10:23):
it, people who may have justheard the gunshots.
I changed many lives by makingthat decision and I know I made
the right decision.
But you know she was a motherto a young daughter, a
six-year-old daughter, and youknow she was somebody's daughter
.
She was somebody'sgranddaughter and cousin and I
don't take that lightly.
It's sad, it really is sad and Ithink about it every single day

(10:45):
.
I don't cope the way I used to.
I'm healthy now.
It's taken me many, many yearsto learn from all those failures
and poor coping, but I do thinkabout her almost every single
day, if not the shooting everysingle day.
But I'm doing better with withthose thoughts, which is which
is good.
It's all about healing.

Speaker 1 (11:05):
So and I know you use the term poor coping and when I
read the biography the um, likethe biography that you sent me
that came up a lot.
I think I want to say that when, when you have a situation like
this, it is so outside the normthat there really isn't a
textbook on how to cope with it,so there is no right or wrong

(11:26):
way.
So I think that's important toknow because people do get stuck
in the kind of beatingthemselves up about hey, I
should have had better copingskills, but again, you're not
prepared for this.
This isn't a daily, normalevent.

Speaker 2 (11:38):
Right and I coped many different ways.
One way that I coped is Iabused alcohol.
I coped many different ways.
One way that I coped is Iabused alcohol, and what I mean
by abusing alcohol is I woulddrink like a 750 milliliter
thing of vodka in less than 30minutes Wow.

(12:00):
And I would mix that withsleeping medicine, allergy
medicine, anything I could mixup in there just to numb what I
was feeling and kind of a quickfix to try to make it all go
away.
And one time I even took mydaughter's prescribed coughing
medicine that had codeine in it.
It was left over and I dumpedthat in my wine glass and I

(12:24):
drank that.
Other ways that I coped wascasual sex.
I would meet women onlinestrictly to to have sex and and
for me sex feels great, it's fun, it's exciting, it's playful,
all that stuff.
So that was a quick fix.
But I was always worried andstressed that what if I I catch
an STD?
What if I get her pregnant?
You know, even though I waswearing protection, I was still
worried about that.

(12:45):
But not enough not to do it.
And there was one time where Iwas laying in bed with a woman
after we had sex and I'm layingthere and I didn't like myself.
I remember thinking what areyou doing, adam?

Speaker 1 (12:57):
What are you doing?
This isn't working for you.

Speaker 2 (12:58):
And you know, another way also is I tried marijuana
for the first time and I alwaysprided myself that I'd never
done drugs.
And you know, some people thinkthat's not a big deal.
You did marijuana, but it's.
It's a big deal to me.
I, before my shooting, I caredabout these things.
After I didn't care.
I wanted a quick fix.
I wanted to feel good, I wantedit to go away, even if it was

(13:21):
momentarily.
So I tried a marijuana gummy.
I smoked on a bowl, but I don'teven remember being high
because I was so intoxicated allthe time that.
But did I do it?
Yeah, absolutely I.
I drank and drove one of my, my.
I would rationalize that itwould take about 30 minutes for

(13:42):
alcohol to kick in.
So I would stop at a gasstation or a convenience store
and buy these little shooters ofcinnamon whiskey and drink two
or three of those in my carbefore I would drive somewhere,
throw them out the window whileI'm driving wherever I'm going,
or throw them in the back of mycar and just rationalize by the
time I get where I have to be,then the alcohol would kick in.

(14:03):
That's wrong.
I could have killed wrong.
I could have killed somebody.
I could have crashed.
It's just not.
I just didn't care and I don'tcope that way now, but that's
how I coped for many years.

Speaker 1 (14:18):
And it really took a toll on me Something you said
and this is more for thelisteners that I, because a lot
of people you know who don'tknow about mental health,
particularly with addiction orsubstance use because substance
addiction is actually myspecialty, addiction treatment
is people will think or askquestions like why would
somebody use drugs?
Why would somebody use alcohol?

(14:39):
I have never met anybody in mylife in the 20 years of 25 plus
years that I've been doing thiswork that did not have some
level of trauma before theystarted using it.
One of the things you said wasit made the pain go away.
Right, you didn't have to thinkabout it and that's you know on
some levels, like how can youfault people for not wanting to

(15:02):
feel pain?

Speaker 2 (15:03):
Sure, yeah, I agree I .
You know, before my shooting Idrank wine.
I collected wine and um, butthen after my shooting I went
through the bottles of wine thatI had like very quickly and
then I went to liquor because itgot me where I wanted to go
quicker.
You know, I didn't have todrink as much and um, you know.
Another way I coped, I guessyou would say, is self-harm.

(15:29):
There was one time I plannedthis before I even got to work.
I was in the shower thinking,you know, I don't feel like
going to work today, but I can'tkeep saying I can't be there
because of my shooting.
So I got to come up withsomething different and what I
had done was I had planned,while I'm driving to the police
department there was a BurgerKing.

(15:49):
So I went through Burger King,bought a whole bunch of
breakfast foods in thedrive-thru and a couple of
orange juices binged to eat that, washed it all down and then
also hit up a McDonald's on theway to the police department too
.
And once I got to the policedepartment I walked in and kind
of played the sick employee andmade sure everybody knew I
wasn't feeling well, which wasall just a bunch of BS and I

(16:13):
went into the bathroom and letpeople know that I was in the
bathroom, kept the door open alittle bit and made myself throw
up and intentionally not hitthe toilet, so, you know, to add
to the whole drama of beingsick, and they sent me home
right away.
I'm ashamed of that becausethat's just a big lie and it was
completely against the kind ofit just goes against who I am.

(16:37):
And you know, there was even onetime that I didn't want to work
on the 4th of July and I used a12-inch wrench and I hit my
knee a bunch of times, justenough, so there's redness,
abrasions and I went into urgentcare, the emergency room,
showed the doctor, the doctordid x-rays, gave me pain meds,
gave me a doctor's excuse andeven crutches.

(16:59):
And I got all to work on the4th of July weekend just because
I was stressed and triggered bysomething.
And I lied to my chief.
I love that guy.
That guy supported me through myshooting, was there for me from
the beginning and I bold-faced,lied to him and said I fell
down my back steps and landed ona manhole cover on my knee and

(17:23):
that's, that's just so I couldget out of not working.
I I did so many things that Iwouldn't have done before my
shooting after, because I justdidn't care.
I was selfish, I was worriedabout myself, I wanted to feel
better, I wanted the pain to goaway and ultimately, it didn't
do any of that.
It just caused more problems,caused me more depression, more

(17:44):
anxiety, and I'm very lucky tobe where I am today.

Speaker 1 (17:48):
Yeah, yeah, and thank you for sharing that, adam.
I really appreciate that.
And again, more, more, for,like the people who are
listening, there is such astigma with men and you know
there's.
There's a stigma with mentalhealth, particularly with the
first responder community and apredominantly male run community
as well.
Right, that there's this andI'm not, you know, like excusing

(18:10):
the stuff that you're talkingabout, but again, the motivation
behind all that stuff is justto not be in pain and survive,
right?
So I mean, if you can look atit objectively, not just for you
but for other people who mightbe struggling, is that you know,
subjectively they're poorcoping skills, right, but in the
moment, if somebody is thatmuch in pain and they just don't

(18:32):
want to feel pain and they wantto protect themselves, that's
all they know, right?
So it's not, it's notnecessarily as black and white
to say like it's a it's a badthing, because in the moment
it's it's not, it, it's fixingyour knee, it's fixing that pain
, right, right exactly, andthat's that's what my therapist
says too.

Speaker 2 (18:49):
Every every monday at 5 pm, I'm sitting on a couch
talking to my therapist.
I still see one today.
I wake up every morning, go tothe bathroom, take a 20
milligram lexapro pill and amultivitamin.
You know talk therapy andleapro, that all that all helps
me.
I you know.
And so what really got me?

(19:11):
What really got me is I was ata active shooter training in
December of 2021.

Speaker 1 (19:18):
And how far was that from the actual incident, like
what was the time?

Speaker 2 (19:23):
That was five years years, about five years after.
So I was at active shootertraining and we were.
We were seated comfortably andwe were watching a powerpoint.
We were going all over all thedifferent active shooters that
occurred in the united statesover the years and even, you
know, overseas, and we keptgoing to active shooting events
that occurred in april and theykept saying April, april, april,

(19:45):
and that's when my shootinghappened.
So I was getting a knot in mystomach, I got really, really
hot and I started sweating andafter about a minute I went up
to wipe my forehead and it wasdrenched in water.
I was having a panic attack andthere was probably about 25
other police officers in thatroom and they all knew me.
They all knew that I had beeninvolved in a shooting.

(20:07):
But my first instinct was tohide it.
I can't let anybody know thisis going on.
I got to fight through it, Igot to hide it but honestly, it
probably would have been okay ifI would have just raised my
hand and said, hey, I can't dothis.
They understood, they knew whatI went through.
It would have been okay, but myfirst instinct was to fight it
and to hide it, and I did.

(20:28):
That went on a couple of daysoff and then I was a detective
at the time and I worked apatrol shift New Year's Eve 2021
.
And I went into work and I satdown in my squad car and I
thought you know what, forget it.
I quit, I ain't doing this, nomore.
And I chatted my sergeant and Isaid I need you to meet with me
, I need you to come in and Ican't do this anymore.

(20:51):
I need you to come with me totalk to the chief.
And he met with me and came inmy squad car and said you're not
quitting, let's go and let's gotalk to the chief.
And we went and talked to thechief and he supported me and
said yeah, you're not quitting.
You know, go home and we'llfigure things out.
And they were very supportive.
And I want to say about threeweeks passed and the chief said

(21:12):
the only way you can come backis you got to have a
psychological evaluation.
And I was all for it.
You know I started speakingabout my experience in 2019.
I'm a strong mental healthadvocate.
I'm like, yeah, let's get thepsychological evaluation done so
I can get back to work.
But when I was driving there.
The evaluation was scheduledfrom 9 am until 4 pm, and when I

(21:36):
was driving there, I wasthinking about all kinds of
stuff.
But one thing I was thinking ofis I'm going to lie, I'm going
to beat this test.
I'm not going to be honest, I'mgoing to lie, I'm going to beat
this test.
I'm not going to be honest, I'mgoing to fight it, and then I'm
going to get back to work.
So I'm sitting in the waitingroom.

Speaker 1 (21:51):
Before you finish, can I ask you just one question
with that?
Where do you think that camefrom?
Like, where do you think thedesire to not be honest?
Is that something that was partof the culture of where you
were?

Speaker 2 (22:09):
Is that something that?
No, I think it.
I think it has a lot to do withthe stigma, the stigma
associated with mental health,especially in law enforcement
and first responding, firstresponders, and I also think it
maybe internally, it's like Ican do this, I don't need to go.
You know, I've been copingpoorly for years but I've still
been doing okay.
I, you know, I haven't beendisciplined, I haven't been
suspended, I've been gettingawards and stuff like that.
So I'm just going to lie aboutthis.

(22:29):
It's just, I'm going to beat itand go back to work, because I
want to go back to work, I wantto prove that I'm okay.
So I'm sitting in the waitingroom and I thought to myself you
know what, adam, the only waythat you're going to get better
and the only way that you'regoing to get healthy is if
you're honest.
You have to be honest.
So I decided to be honest and I, I went through all the testing
and then, once it was done, Ireceived the printout and I'm

(22:52):
reading through this multi-pageyou know, psychological
evaluation I started crying.
It's, this is me.
This is why I acted the way Ihave been acting over the years
and coping the way I have beenand you know I was diagnosed
with major depressive disorder,ptsd, acute stress with

(23:12):
dissociative features, and I sawthat, those test results as
answers.
Now I'm thinking what do I gotto do to get better?
Now I have the answers, what Igot to do to get better.
So I went to the policedepartment.
We provided that to the policedepartment, the psychological
eval, and then I requested a90-day leave of absence, which

(23:33):
was approved, and then I was intherapy two, three times a week.
I did some biofeedback therapy,talk therapy, emdr.
It was all really helpful,really helpful.
Talk therapy, emdr was allreally helpful, really helpful.
And EMDR was really helpfulbecause it made me realize that
for some reason I was thinking Iwasn't good enough.

(23:54):
I was thinking that because Ishot her I wasn't good enough.
I said before that I pridedmyself with being able to talk
people down and not ever teasingor not ever using pepper spray
or using my baton on anybody.
But this time I had to shootsomebody.
I had no other choice and butfor whatever reason, I saw that
as a failure, like I'm not goodenough, so I had to shoot her.

(24:16):
And that's not the case.
But I learned that through EMDRand you know, it's just.
It was such a traumatic event,it was such a struggle and I
really wanted to go back to work.
The psychologist said herecommended six months of
short-term disability and youknow, once the 90-day leave of

(24:39):
absence was approved, I didn'tget any kind of pay.
I didn't get workers'compensation, I didn't get
disability pay.
I had to apply for unemploymentand that was upsetting because
for years I pay health insurancein case something like this
happens so I can have the helpfinancially.
And I got nothing.
Unemployment got me $300 a week.

(25:01):
I struggled with my bills, mycredit number, you know credit.
It all just took a huge dumpand it was horrible.
And I have no doubt in my mindthat if I would have broken a
leg, broken an arm, injuredmyself physically and it wasn't
mental health that I would havebeen paid.

Speaker 1 (25:21):
You're probably correct.

Speaker 2 (25:23):
Yeah, and I just I didn't understand that and it
was such, it was such a, it wasso frustrating.
And so after, after my 90 dayleave leave, my absence was up,
I had a meeting with with thechief and he advised me that
they weren't extending my leaveof absence and he said I have an

(25:44):
option I can either resign orthey're going to terminate me.
And he literally had two onetermination form, one letter and
one resignation letter.
And I thought about it and Isaid I'm not resigning, this is
work related.
I'm not resigning.
So I was terminated and I waswalked out of the but doesn't?

Speaker 1 (26:03):
but doesn't that feed into the the stigma, right?
So here you are, doingeverything you possibly should
be doing.
You're getting counseling,you're getting EMJ, you're
taking medication and doingeverything you need to do.
You take a leave of absence andthen you get fired for it,
right?

Speaker 2 (26:18):
Exactly, exactly, with with an opportunity to
resign.
Why would I resign at that time?
I had worked for them for 14years.
I love being a cop, you know,like my story.

Speaker 1 (26:29):
I wanted to grow up and be an ERCAR man.

Speaker 2 (26:31):
That's all I ever wanted to do and now I'm doing
it and now I'm gettingterminated.
I remember walking out thepolice department, being
escorted out and driving awaythinking what now?
I felt like I was ghosted.
They literally washed theirhands of me, saying Adam's not
our problem anymore.
What if I would have went homeand killed myself?

(26:52):
Nobody followed up, Nobodychecked up on me and I don't
know how you do that.

Speaker 1 (26:57):
That's disturbing.

Speaker 2 (26:59):
Yeah, I don't know how you do that, I don't know
what the answer is to that, butthat's, in my eyes, that's just
wrong.
My lifelong goal was to be apolice officer and then I feel
like I was just kind of, youknow, cut loose and hey, you're,
you don't work here anymore,not our problem, goodbye.
And nobody texts me, nobodycalled me, no people I worked

(27:21):
with for 14 years that went onlife and death calls people who
helped me move, people who knewmy kids.
It's a horrible feeling.

Speaker 1 (27:31):
You know I can't, I can't imagine.
I mean it sounds really awful.
But something you didn't dowhich I may have done, it If
that happened to me.
But something you didn't dowhich I may have done If that
happened to me.
I may have said to myself Ishould have just lied.
But you didn't do that.
You actually continued to makepositive changes, like you did
not let that set you back.
I agree with you.
It's horrible the fact that youhave these colleagues and

(27:51):
friends who did not seem to evenhave the humanity to reach out
and say are you alive, are youokay?

Speaker 2 (28:02):
Like do you need anything?
Right?
And one of the biggest things,one of the biggest decisions I
made several months later Ithink it was in September of
that year, after beingterminated, maybe six, nine
months after is all theseco-workers were friends on my
Facebook account and I'mthinking, okay, they're
supposedly my friends.
Nobody's reaching out, are theyjust monitoring and seeing what
I'm doing?

(28:22):
And not even a simple hey,buddy, how you doing?
I miss you Nothing.
So I ended up deleting andblocking everybody, I'm like,
you're not my friend.
If you were my friend, you wouldhave sent me a simple text or
something.
I feel like I was justabandoned.
Like I said, I had never beendisciplined, I had never been

(28:42):
suspended.
I received multiple awards atthe police department, state
citations, awards through thepolice association and then all
of a sudden, it's just like youcan resign or be terminated.
I couldn't believe it.
And this wasn't the same chiefthat was with me at the time of
my shooting.
That chief had retired, butit's I just.

(29:05):
I'm at a loss because Iabsolutely loved working there.
I really, truly did, and to gothrough that, it's to say it's
horrible, is putting it lightly.
I mean I don't have words toput on what happened to me.
I was devastated.

Speaker 1 (29:23):
Well, it's multi-layered too, because I
mean, here you are beingvulnerable with something that's
like a tragedy that happenedand in your most vulnerable
moment, the people that aresupposed to be supporting you
turn their back on you.
That's a big deal.

Speaker 2 (29:38):
And one thing that also happened is when I was on
my leave of absence, one of thesergeants came out to my house
and I lived outside of thecommunity where I was a
detective.
He came out to my house andgave me an order, a written
order, to immediately cease anddesist.
Speaking about my mental health, my personal mental health,
when it in regards to myshooting and I have I mean you

(30:03):
can't see it, but I mean I havea copy of it right here and it
says you know, if you don'tfollow this, you could be
disappointed or terminated.
And I had been speaking since2019 and there was never an
issue.
And now, all of a sudden,here's an order.
You need to stop doing that,because it reflects negatively
on the police department.
I'm thinking what?
Where is this coming from?

Speaker 1 (30:25):
So how does that reflect negatively?
You're just talking about thereality behind stuff Like how is
that negative?

Speaker 2 (30:31):
I don't know, I don't .
I don't think it was negative.
I mean, you know, and when Ispoke to others about my my
personal and professional mentalhealth challenges, I never said
where I worked, I never namedthe police department.
Sure, but yeah, and then I getthis order that you need to stop
or you're going to getdisappointed or terminated.
And I'm thinking, but I'mhelping people, that's what I'm

(30:57):
doing, and I've been doing itfor since 2019.
And all of a sudden, now itbecomes an issue.
I just didn't understand that.

Speaker 1 (31:06):
But you did, because I mean, now you're a captain, so
like how did you like whathappened after that?
Because you're obviously youkept going right.

Speaker 2 (31:13):
Right.
So what happened was, shortlyafter I was terminated I reached
out to my sister, who livedthree and a half hours away and
I just wanted to move away and Itold her.
I said I don't have any moneyor anything.
And she goes, adam, her name'sAmy.
She said, adam, all you have todo is get down here and we'll
take care of everything else.
So I did that.

(31:34):
I moved into the spare bedroomin her basement and we always
joke that, hey, at least Ididn't live in my parents'
basement.
You know after all this.
But you know, at the time Iwasn't taking medicine.
At the time I wasn't seeing atherapist at the time and I
absolutely love Amy becausesecretive she was, you know,

(31:55):
behind my back looking for atherapist for me because she saw
that I needed help and I knew Idid.
But I wouldn't take that stepto get it.
And she found a therapist, thesame one that I see now, two
years later.
And I owe a lot to Amy becauseif it wasn't for her I probably
wouldn't be as healthy as I amtoday.

(32:16):
I wouldn't be a police officerand you know, at the time I
never thought, didn't even know,if I wanted to be a cop anymore
.
I was thinking with everythingI went through even though it's
all I knew all the training, allthe experience and years I
didn't even know if I wanted todo that anymore.
And once I got back intotherapy and taking medicine and
getting healthier, I thought tomyself you know, I really want

(32:38):
to do this because I still have.
I still have something left inthe tank.
I want to help people.
I have a lot of experience andtraining experience, especially
in the area of mental health andmy critical incident that most
police officers don't.
So I was like I want to getback into law enforcement
because I want to share thatwith with other law enforcement

(32:59):
and first responders and help.
So I started applying and therewas one in a two week process I
was offered three conditionaloffers of employment from three
different police departments inthree different counties in
Wisconsin and I chose where Iwork now and I remember during
that interview, chief Sean McGeeis my chief now and I told him

(33:22):
right off the bat hey, I justwant to let you know this is
what happened to me, becauseyou're going to find it in a
background check anyway.
So this is what happened to meand he's like thanks for being
honest.
And so I got hired and ourpolice department has a boat
patrol and the chief and I wereout on the lake one day and he
said to me I know that you speakabout your mental health.
I support that.

(33:42):
I support you and your mentalhealth.
If you want to keep speaking,go ahead and do it.
I support that, and you caneven wear your police uniform if
you want to do that.
And I'm like wow, that'sawesome, yeah, and he's Chief
McGee is great.
That's awesome, yeah, and he'sChief McGee is great.
He just doesn't talk the talk,he walks the walk.
There could be times that I'myou know, I'm known to be kind

(34:03):
of a goofy guy and make up myown songs and walk around and do
goofy stuff and sometimes, whenI'm quiet, he'll even say, hey,
you doing okay, you know, andthat kind of stuff's important.
We do something called shopwith a cop and that's nationwide
, and we usually do it at ourWalmart here, because we have a
Walmart near the community thatI'm a police officer at, and I

(34:27):
remember the first time we wentthere, he checked in with me.
He said, are you going to beokay when we do that?
Because he knows that allWalmarts are set up the same.
He knows that my incidenthappened and I said, yeah, I'll
be good and I'm just like, wow,he really pays attention and
that's that's important, that'sso important in a leader, in a
leader in leadership and yeah,so I'm grateful.

(34:51):
You know, shortly after gettinghired I was promoted to captain
and I do my best to lead byexample too.
Everybody knows what I wentthrough.
I'm very transparent.
I don't sugarcoat nothing and Itell people and tell the
officers and anybody else.
If you need somebody, call me,text me.
I'll be there for you and I'llkeep it private.

(35:12):
It's about you getting help,you being safe, and they know
that I'm being honest about that.
I'm not just you know thecaptain, you know police captain
, you know saying something.
I really truly mean it.
When it comes to somebody'smental health, those captain
bars will come off and I'll be.
I'll be there for people.

Speaker 1 (35:34):
And I wish we, I wish we had more people like you
seriously.
So how do you?
You may not have an answer tothis, but what do you think
needs to be done to help curtailthe stigma of mental health in
police?
Off with police officers orfirst responders Like what?
What can we do to help that?

Speaker 2 (35:54):
I think it it needs to begin in a criminal justice
classes in college.
I think it also needs to beaddressed in police academies
and I know in Wisconsin it isand I think leaders within
police departments, firedepartments, ems agencies they
need to let their troops knowthat it's okay.

(36:17):
It's okay to talk about yourmental health.
You are not alone.
Please don't suffer in silence.
There's so many resources outthere for you.
There's so many people outthere, even complete strangers,
that care about you, that loveyou, that'll help you.
It's not easy to do it byyourself, but you're not alone.
There's so many people who havegone through it or know

(36:40):
somebody who has and can helpyou.
You know, I think it's just.
I believe the stigma willalways be there.
I think it's getting better andit'll continue to be better but
I think it'll always be there.
We need to normalize it and makesure that people know it's okay
to talk about your mentalhealth and get help, but then

(37:02):
also know that if you do, you'renot going to be shunned, you're
not going to be criticized,you're not going to instantly be
terminated, you're not going tobe looked upon, as you know,
like something's wrong with you.

Speaker 1 (37:16):
But you see how somebody could hear the first
part of your story before you goto the place that you are oh,
absolutely.
And then say, well, see, that'swhy I don't do it, because I
don't want to go through thatsame thing.
And I have to tell you it's notin just first responders.
There is some mental healthprograms.
There's one particular collegein Rhode Island that I could
think of.
It's where they require peoplewho are going into holistic

(37:47):
psychotherapy as their major toactually have two years of
holistic psychotherapy as partof their curriculum and one.
I think it's a fantastic idea.
I think any mental healthprofessional should do it.
But I can tell you I've heardmental health professionals say
I don't need therapy, that's forcrazy people.
And that's heard mental healthprofessionals say I don't need
therapy, that's for crazy people.
And that's the mental healthprofessionals, right.
So I mean, when you kind ofbranch outside of that and then
you go to places that are alittle bit less about mental
health, I'm not surprised at howmuch the stigma is, because

(38:11):
it's everywhere, right.

Speaker 2 (38:12):
Right, right, right.
You know there were parts of methat, not now but back then,
when.
You know, when I was sitting inthat squad car on New Year's
Eve thinking, forget it, I quit,I'm done, I ain't doing this,
no more.
You know, in the early stagesof me getting better, I thought
back.
You know what.
I should have just sucked it upand kept going.

Speaker 1 (38:33):
You know, I would still be there, but that's not
where I'm supposed to be, andyou actually don't know that too
, because one of the things thatI don't think you mentioned but
it was in the story that youhad sent was there were times
where you were contemplatingsuicide, right, and had you
stayed, you may have committedsuicide.

Speaker 2 (38:53):
Right, exactly, there was.
There were many times that Iwent to bed at night and I
prayed to God that I wouldn'twake up.
I'm like, please just don't, Idon't want to wake up.
You know, and I easily put mygun to my head a dozen times
easily.
And I did that when I wasintoxicated.
And what I would do is I have a40 caliber Glock which is a
model 22.
And you remove the magazine,you know, rack the slide to, you

(39:17):
know, empty the chamber, takethe bullet out and I would put
my barrel to my you know righttemple and I would pull the
trigger.
And I don't think I wanted tokill myself, but I can't explain
it any other way.
I just wanted to hear and feelthat metallic click of pulling
the trigger and I can't explainit.

(39:39):
People ask me all the time whydo you think you did that?
And I'm like I don't know, Idon't know.
And some people think, somepeople tell me maybe you were
kind of pre-planning to do it.
And then I also think how manytimes did I do that when I was
so intoxicated, blackout, drunk,that I don't remember, and I
could have easily forgot toclear the chamber and shot

(39:59):
myself, and people would havefound me and they probably would
have thought you know whatthat's sad.
Adam died by suicide, but weknow he was depressed and he was
involved in the shooting.
But no, it's just at least forme.
After a traumatic event just atleast for me.
After a traumatic event like ashooting, like an

(40:20):
officer-involved shooting, Ibehaved and I did things that I
never would have done before myshooting.
I was a completely differentperson and I just kept doing it,
but then I just rationalizedwhy I was doing stuff.
It was just, it was a horribleexperience for me and I'm very,
I'm truly blessed to be heretalking to you today about it

(40:42):
all.

Speaker 1 (40:43):
Well, I'm glad you are, because you have a very,
very powerful message and, likeI said, I really wish we had
more people like you within thefirst responder community who
would accept, like how importantthis is.
I interviewed on one of theearlier episodes, a friend of
mine.
She's a social worker and herhusband's a police officer and
she was talking about how,within the department they were

(41:03):
in, she had worked in thedepartment doing, I think, some
like outreach work to differentfamilies.
That their way of kind ofchecking in with each other is
you know, are you okay?
Yep, okay, kind of suck it up,because if they said they
weren't, their fear is theirjob's in jeopardy.
Oh right, they just have tokind of go with it and just say
like, hey, nope, everything'sgreat, you know.

Speaker 2 (41:23):
Right and I agree with you 100 percent.
I, when I first became a policeofficer, I was a third shift
evidence technician and this wasmany, many years ago and we
responded to a shooting.
Three people died, seven wereshot, and I remember, shortly
after all that was said and done, the police officer support

(41:45):
team were going around to theofficers asking them if they
were okay, and I think Imight've been two or three years
on.
I only had you know on and Iremember when they asked me if I
was doing okay and I was, Iwasn't having nightmares, I
didn't feel affected by it atall.
But there was no way I wasgoing to tell this this officer,

(42:07):
you know, if I was struggling.
There's no way.
There's no way I was going tosay, yeah, I had nightmares or
started drinking more.
If I.
If that was the case which itwasn't, because I worked all my
life to be a cop and now I'm acop in my hometown there's no
way I would have told him thatyou know, oh, I'm having issues
because I would have feared oflosing my job that I worked so

(42:29):
hard and all my life to get.
So I totally get it whenofficers tell me that, and I've
heard that from many, manypeople, not only in the United
States, but I've spoken withofficers in Germany and
Australia and in Canada, andwhat's interesting about that is
it really doesn't matter whereyou live in the world.
Police officers and firstresponders all have that same

(42:52):
type of experience.
So that's kind of there'sreally nice to hear that, hey,
somebody thousands of miles awayis experiencing the same thing
I'm experiencing.

Speaker 1 (43:02):
Yeah, I mean, it's certainly a universal experience
when somebody goes through that.
Absolutely, I agree with you,because there was recently
wasn't there just a schoolshooting in Wisconsin, there was
in Madison.
How does that, when you hearstories like that, does that
bring up any of the trauma foryou, or is that something that?

Speaker 2 (43:20):
sometimes it can be triggering.
Uh, sometimes watching moviescan be triggering.
Um, saving private Ryan, likethe first 30 minutes of that,
when they're they're stormingthe beach.
I I watched that several monthsago and I had to turn it off.
It was horribly triggering.
My whole day was shot.
I think I watched it maybe 11to 12 o'clock in the morning and

(43:41):
you know, sometimes I watch thenews and things are triggering
and sometimes they're not.
It's just kind of hit or miss.
You never know.
And then sometimes I can tellthat yeah, something triggered
me.
I don't know what it was, butI'm kind of feeling all like
geeked up right now andsomething, and I recognize that,

(44:01):
which is important.
So I know, okay, something'snot right here.
Something triggered me andsometimes I figure out what it
was and that's helpful.
And sometimes I don't, but Iknow how to cope positively now
and not slip back into that poorcoping, because I'm not going
back there.
It didn't help me, it just madethings worse.

Speaker 1 (44:22):
There's also another stigma with police, because I
remember when I was growing upit's funny that you say I wanted
to be a detective when I wasgrowing up.
I never did pursue that.
But the interesting thing isthere's kind of a similarity
between being a therapist and adetective.
I say this all the time becausewe are in a therapy session.
We are paying attention toeverything.
We're trying to figure outwhat's going on with the person.
We're trying to figure outeverything that's happening.

(44:43):
So I mean that part of it is alittle bit similar.
But I remember when I wasgrowing up you know, which would
have been in the early 80s, mid80s the way people perceived
police officers was verydifferent than the way people
perceive police officers now.
It seems there's been a verynegative mentality shift towards

(45:03):
seeing police as the enemy andnot as people that are there to
help.
I can't imagine what that'slike for you or anybody who
works in that profession to haveto deal with that.

Speaker 2 (45:16):
Well, shortly after my shooting, I received hate
mail and I can read you briefly.
I have a piece of hate mailright here, and so it was mailed
to the police department withno return address.
They didn't sign it, but theletter it's.
It's written all differently,with black ink and thick ink and
it looks like pen and it sayshey to the murderer cop.

(45:39):
What the hell is your big,strong, armed, trained macho man
bastard serving the communitypoliceman doing, shooting and
murdering a 25-year-old woman ina Walmart store?
Throw some socks at her or achair, or a few pillows, or a
bicycle, or some spray or ataser.
You, son of a bitch, murderouscop.

(45:59):
I hope a drunk driver shootsyou.
That is horrifying.
Yeah, that's.
I received multiple pieces ofhate mail like that and I didn't
read it right away because I aman emotional guy and my chief
knows that he recognized that,but he did tell me.
He said you know we arereceiving hate mail.
I will let you read it, whennot right now, because I know

(46:21):
how you are, you'll, you'lldwell on it, and he's right,
that would have just ate me upif I was reading it right away.
And but when I, when I was ableto read it.
I'm like, oh my gosh, you noreturn address.
You couldn't even put your nameto it really.
And you know, another thingthat would happen is around, you
know, for the probably thefirst five years or so around

(46:42):
the anniversary of my shooting,I would get hate messages from
people who would create fakeFacebook accounts, send me a
message and and just like kindof remind me of what I did every
year, like I would forget, Iwouldn't, but like, oh you, you
killed her and all this.
It was just horrible.

Speaker 1 (47:03):
Do you avoid reading them Cause it doesn't seem I
mean cause it doesn't seem likethere'd be any value in reading
them?

Speaker 2 (47:08):
I, I don't.
I don't avoid reading them.
I don't read them right awayUsually.
Um cause, I want to kind ofwrap my mind around it.
This is kind of coming.
I know it's going to benegative.
I don't read everything.
One of the biggest things Itried to avoid after my shooting
was social media comments,because my shooting went

(47:30):
everywhere and even the 911 callwas shared online and everybody
could listen to the whole 911call call was shared online and
everybody could listen to thewhole 911 call.
And I tried not to read thecomments because I'm reading the
ones I read.
They didn't know what they weretalking about.
They weren't there, they didn'thave the facts straight and it
was hurtful.
It really was hurtful.
I'm not a bad person, I'm not akiller.

(47:53):
I didn't wake up thinking, hey,I want to go kill somebody.
I never wanted to do that.
I hope I never have to do itagain.
But yeah, some of the commentsjust really made me look like a
really an evil person.

Speaker 1 (48:10):
Right, all these like keyboard warriors.
You know, we have created aculture where everybody is just
like angry and incrediblyself-centered.
I was recently stopped by apolice officer when was it?
It was maybe like in the springor early summer and what
happened was I I told you Imoved from Connecticut I'm sorry

(48:34):
, from Rhode Island toConnecticut.
So in Rhode Island we have tohave inspection stickers on our
car, in Connecticut we don't.
So I didn't think to take theinspection sticker off.
It's not something I reallythink of.
So I had Connecticut plates onand I was just driving to work
and I was about I don't know,not even like a quarter of a
mile from my office, and I gotpulled over by a police officer

(48:57):
in the town that I grew up inand you know he basically said
you know pulling you overbecause you have connecticut
plates, but you have a rhodeisland inspection sticker, so I
want to make sure the car is notstolen.
And I was like, okay, whatever.
So I gave him all myinformation and you know, and
then, um, he was really nice andhe came back and he's like,
okay, it all checks out.
He's like you know, you could,you should probably take it off
so this doesn't happen again.
So I did, and then I thoughtI'm gonna send them, I'm gonna

(49:18):
call the captain and just sayyour officer did a really great
job, like to give like positivefeedback, because I know people
are so used to getting negativefeedback.
So I I emailed them and I saidyou know, just an fyi, your
officer was incredibly polite,he was very professional, like
here's what happened, and heresponded back.
You know, he was very grateful.
He was like thank's whathappened?
And he responded back.
You know he was very grateful.
He was like thank you so much.
I'll make sure that goes on hisrecord.

(49:39):
And then he had said you know,because it was a potentially
dangerous situation, and thatentire time I never once thought
that that was a potentiallydangerous situation because I
don't think like that, I don'thave to think like that.
So afterwards I stopped and Ithought and I went wow, I guess
you know, from your perspective,from a police officer's
perspective, that could be adangerous situation because you

(50:00):
don't know where you're goinginto, right?
But I think the general publicjust doesn't think about stuff
like that, right, and we don'tthink about how dangerous your
job is every day that you couldbe, you could be getting shot or
you could have.
You know, we don't think aboutthat stuff.
We don't think about that stuff.

Speaker 2 (50:13):
Right, and thank you, matt, for doing that, because
that really means a lot to theofficers.
When they get something likethat either an email or a letter
or kind of an attaboy they maynot say it does, but it does,
because that's not somethingthat we get every single day and
something like that can go inyour work file as, hey, you did
a good job here and shared withother people, and so thanks for

(50:36):
doing that, because it'simportant to do that and it
means a lot to the officers whenthey get something like that.

Speaker 1 (50:44):
I'm a big fan of giving positive feedback.
And in another situation Idon't know if you heard this one
it was wild because I live inthe middle of nowhere,
Connecticut, and somebody dumpeda car on my property with a
note that said the car hadbroken down, which I knew was a
lie, because my driveway is likeuphill.
So I'm like there's no way youbroke down.
So we don't even have a policeforce because our town
population is 1,400.

(51:04):
So I had to call the statepolice and they came out and
luckily I had a camera.
It turned out that people werewanted.
Oh wow, it was this big thing.
So the police had their gunsout.
They're going through my wholehouse.
They're going through myproperty because the lights were
on in my house and I wasn'tsure if they had.
You know they had gone in.
So they had to like clear thewhole property.
Um, which is really kind oftraumatic for me.

(51:25):
Yeah, so I went again.
I went down to the policestation, I got them all thank
you cards.
I gave them all 25 gift cardsto amazon and just it was like
thank you so much for doing yourjob that that's awesome,
Because I think we need to domore of that.
As you know, citizens to saylike okay, thank you, Like
you're doing your job, Like thisis that could have been really

(51:45):
bad.
I could have been kidnapped.
God only knows what could havehappened.

Speaker 2 (51:48):
Right, yeah, because when, when people call the
police, it's not usually to sayyou know, hey, captain myers, we
just made a pizza or somebrownies.
You want to come over?
Yeah, it's usually for negativestuff, you know.
So when police officers receivesome you know attaboys or
something like how, how you didyou know, being thankful that

(52:09):
that goes a long way, it reallymeans a lot.

Speaker 1 (52:11):
Even if they say, even if they don't admit that it
does, it does sure yeah, andnow when I see them, like
anytime I see, because you know,like I said, we only have a
state police force where I live,so anytime I see them I always
walk up to them like thank you,you guys are great, you know,
but but again, I don't think.
I don't think enough people dothat right.
I wish I wish more people woulddo that.
Yeah, what do you?

(52:33):
What do you think the biggestchallenge is right now for
police officers and mentalhealth?
What's the biggest challenge tothat, or the biggest threat to
that?

Speaker 2 (52:44):
I think the biggest challenge is that that faces
police officers with mentalhealth is the fear of losing
their jobs, losing theirlivelihood, losing their house,
their fishing boat, theirgirlfriend, their boyfriend,
their wife, their husband,everything that they worked hard
for.
They can truly be strugglingand truly need help, but you

(53:05):
still have that stigma that'sstanding in the way.
But if I do, I might loseeverything.
So maybe I won't say anythingnow, maybe I'll wait, maybe I'll
cope more, you know, on my ownor figure out how I can cope
negatively, mind you, but it'llwork, you know, for a little bit
.
But after a while it's justgoing to bleed right into your

(53:27):
job.
Your personal life is going tobleed into your professional
life and there's going to come atime where you can't manage it
and when that happens you aregoing to lose everything.
But it's not going to be forgood reasons.
It's going to be, you know.
Let's say an officer takes theirlife, or their wife or husband

(53:48):
divorces them, or theirboyfriend girlfriend leaves them
because of how poorly they'recoping and acting.
It's a difficult choice to sayI need help or everybody would
do it and there would be nostigma.
It's a difficult thing to doand I think that's truly what
gets in the way is they want toknow that if I'm truly

(54:10):
struggling and I reach out forhelp, that things are going to
be okay, that I'm not going tobe criticized, I'm not going to
be judged, I'm not going to losemy job.
But the fear of that, I think,is strong enough for them not to
reach out for help.

Speaker 1 (54:26):
And it's such a group mentality, I think, even for
both, for first responders andfor the public.
So I mean, when the groupmentality is you don't talk or
like.
When the group mentality of thepublic is you, you know police
officers are not there to helpyou, you have to actively work
to not fall into that, thatthought process.
Because it's because it is,it's just like group think, like

(54:47):
people get sucked into it andyou have to say like, okay, okay
, hold on, let me challenge this.
Maybe they're not all like this, maybe like, maybe know, maybe
we can go talk to them, likemaybe we can like establish
relationships, sure, sure.
Is there any sort of anonymousline that police officers can
call for mental health servicesthat don't, that are maybe like

(55:09):
not in their district, not theirstate?
Is there anything like that?

Speaker 2 (55:13):
Well, there's all kinds of resources out there
that you can.
You can call or text and remainanonymous.
But even with that, lawenforcement officers and first
responders are hesitant to usethat because you know, with
caller ID nowadays or ways totrace a phone number, it's not
difficult to find out who'scalling you or who's emailing

(55:37):
you or who's texting you.
And if there's a chance thatthey could find out, a lot of
officers just won't take thatchance because you know there
could be like oh, we're givingthis anonymous survey, please
fill this out.
A lot of guys and gals will sayI'm not doing that because
there must be some way for themto figure out that.

(55:57):
I'm filling this out and it'sreally unfortunate because there
are plenty of officers andfirst responders out there that
do need help and I believe itwould be okay if they received
help and they would be so muchhappier and so much more
healthier and their personallife would probably be better.

(56:19):
Their professional life wouldprobably be better.
But that stigma and that well,what if I lose my job?
It gets in the way, so theychoose to do nothing.

Speaker 1 (56:30):
I have a client.
He actually told me to saythank you for all the work
you're doing, by the way,because I told him I was going
to be interviewing you.
He used to work in a prisonsystem years and years ago and
he talked about how it reallyimpacted all of his
relationships, like his familyrelationship, the relationship
he had with his kids.
Because he would have to whenhe was in the prison, he would

(56:50):
have to have one mentality, ohsure, because, you know, even
the slightest mistake could endup in him getting killed or one
of the other, or like an inmangetting killed or something bad
happening, and so he would haveto be very much like militant
and in control, and then when hewould go home, he would have a
really hard time turning thatoff Right and becoming

(57:11):
vulnerable again because it wasso dangerous to do it outside of
the home.
So do you see that happeningwith police officers too?
Is it a similar dynamic?

Speaker 2 (57:19):
I do.
Yeah, I mean, we all thinkdifferently.
You know, like you mentionedearlier, you know some things
you just don't think about, andI think that, as police officers
, we're always hypervigilant,we're always paying attention to
our surroundings, even whenwe're off duty, even when we say
no, we're not, we are.
You know, we may sit a specificway in a certain place in a

(57:41):
restaurant or stand a certainway when we're waiting in line
for something, but I, yeah, it'sjust we think differently
because of our experiences andbecause of our training, and
that's, that's just a part ofwho we are.

Speaker 1 (57:59):
It's so I could I have to tell you.
I could so relate to that,because I can't tell you how
many times I have been out withfriends.
And you know, because of what Ido for a living, I cannot turn
it off.
I hear what the people next tome are saying.
I'm paying attention to whateverybody's doing.
I'm like reading everybody youknow, and then I'll pick up on
something and I'll be like, oh,that person's not okay.

(58:19):
Or I'll ask a question tosomebody and my friends are like
you can't ask that question andI'm like I'm so used to asking
invasive questions for a livingthat I kind of forget where I am
sometimes and I end up, youknow, like having a therapy
session with some random person.

Speaker 2 (58:34):
Well, you know, I know what you mean, because even
when, let's say, I go out toeat and I'm sitting at a booth
in a restaurant, I'm listeningto all the conversations around
me, I'm paying attention toeverybody who's there.
I'm kind of assessing everybody.
And even when I'm sitting therewhat I would say comfortably
eating my my food that I justordered, I'm still tuned into

(58:54):
everything that's going onaround me.
So am I really turning it off?
No, I think I'm turning it down, but I'm still paying attention
to what's going on, becausewhat if something happens,
especially after my shooting?
What if something happens?
I have to be prepared, I haveto be ready.
So that's a whole part of beinghypervigilant.
And, you know, I wish I couldjust turn it off, flip the

(59:18):
switch and then to see how thatwould be.
I mean, I don't remember how itwas years ago, but I think that
would be really nice.

Speaker 1 (59:25):
I don't know if you can, because I have this.
I have the same struggle allthe time it's you can't unknow
what you know.
So it would be like if you readsomebody's diary and then you
have all this information aboutthem, them, and then you're
going to go meet with them thenext time.
You can't unknow it, you'retrying to hide it and pretend
you don't.
So I think it's the same thingwith us, like we are so attuned

(59:46):
I mean for different reasons,but we are so attuned to what
people are doing and why they'redoing it that you can't turn it
off, right?

Speaker 2 (59:53):
Right, it's all a part of who I am, too Right.
Years of training, years ofexperience just the kind of
person I am anyways, if I was apolice officer or not, it's just
a part of me.

Speaker 1 (01:00:07):
And yeah.
So in your opinion, in yourexperience, what causes the most
mental health issues for policeofficers?
Is it the line of duty?
Is it the way they're treated?
Is it administrative, like whatcauses the most amount of
stress?

Speaker 2 (01:00:26):
I think what probably causes the most amount of
stress is the different calls.
They go on.
Okay, you know you could be.
Let's say you're working a10-hour shift and for nine hours
and 55 minutes nothing's goingon.
It's winter time, it's beendead all shift.
You're about to grab the micand say 1042, which is the end

(01:00:46):
of shift.
You could even be picking upthe mic and right before you're
about to say you're ending yourshift, you get sent to a call
and you're flying lights andsirens there and you don't know,
and it could be dangerous.
I think that stress over andover and over again causes the
amount of stress.
But that's just how we'retrained.

(01:01:08):
We're trained to do that and todo it well.
But then you know, if anofficer thinks they've done
something well and then they'requestioned, maybe by
administration, that could causea lot of stress too because
they're worried about gettingsuspended or about getting
terminated.
And when they know that theydid the right thing or they

(01:01:28):
thought they did the right thingand yeah, I think it's just a
handful of different things.
I mean we could have a wholedifferent conversation about
that and depending on where youwork in the United States or the
world, I mean it's Well, maybewe'll have to have you come back
for a part two then I'd bewilling to do that.

Speaker 1 (01:01:48):
So a couple more questions.
What advice would you give to astarting officer, somebody that
was just going into the field,say next week, like what would
you tell them?

Speaker 2 (01:01:59):
I would tell them to be open and honest about their
experiences and what they'refeeling and ask a lot of
questions.
If you don't understandsomething, ask.
It's okay to ask questions.
You don't know what you don'tknow and for the like field
training officers out theresergeants, lieutenants, captains
, any administrator talk thetalk and walk the walk.

(01:02:21):
Tell your troops that it's okayto talk about your mental
health, that they're not alone,they don't have to suffer in
silence, that you support them,but then you also have to show
them how you support them.
One of the things that Iexperienced after my shooting is
, you know, at the policedepartment that I used to work
for we had like a shared drivethat was on all the computers

(01:02:43):
and I remember one officercoming to me saying that, hey,
we just put a new folder on thecomputer.
We didn't know what to label it, so we labeled it miscellaneous
.
But if you go in it, it has allkinds of mental health
resources and I'm thinking whynot just label it mental health
resources or employee assistanceor something like that?
I think, as me, as a captain,as a leader, it's important for

(01:03:05):
you to show them and not justsay I support you.
If you need help, come to me.
I support you.
You have to show them in otherways.
You have to got.
You have to be an example.
You can't just sit behind adesk and say I'm going to do
this and and and not do it.
It's.
That's really important.

Speaker 1 (01:03:24):
I don't know what EAP services are like where you are
, but I know one of the biggestproblems that we run into from
mental health professionals withEAP services is oftentimes they
pay much less than regular,like just somebody coming in to
get individual therapy, and theother thing that happens is
there'll be a very small amountof sessions, so they'll give you

(01:03:44):
like four or five sessions.
So then you're working withthis client, you start to build
a relationship with the client,the client starts to make
progress and then their EAPbenefits stop and then they have
to pay out of pocket or theyhave something ridiculously high
deductible and then they can'tafford to get it.
So it it creates a problem Verysimilar here too, because it's
it's like you peel the bandaidoff a little bit and then you

(01:04:06):
throw them out the door you know, right Right, I know I used EAP
one time and I think they gaveme six sessions, it's nothing.

Speaker 2 (01:04:13):
And then after that it's like, okay, we're done.
And it's like but no, I, you'rehelping me, and I could go for
another six, maybe even more andit's like nope that's all you
get.

Speaker 1 (01:04:23):
I'm kind of like what do I do now?
Funny story I had the the onlytwo EAP referrals that I
received in the last, I don'tknow, like 10 years.
Um, they paid for four or fivesessions and both of both of the
clients that came in ended upquitting their job.
Because when they told me whattheir problem was, I'm like it's
your job and I still see themyears later.
Right, so it's funny.

(01:04:45):
No, I get it.
So what can I do?
Or any mental healthprofessional, because, as I was
telling you before we wererecording, I have been trying so
hard to get them to listen andsay, because you know, like I
was telling you, I get MSWstudents all the time for
internships that you know Iwould love to be like, hey, I
have these students, they'refree, like you can see them, you

(01:05:06):
know.
Or or even to like go down andgive some sort of support in a
different way, like what, whatcan we do to like help police
officers?

Speaker 2 (01:05:15):
I think it would be important for you to try to
attend roll calls at policedepartments.
Is that allowed?
You can always reach out to theshift commander or some type of
leadership and say who you areand, you know, maybe attend one
of the roll calls and just sayyou know, hi, I'm Matt.
This is what I offer.

(01:05:36):
This is what's going on.
If you ever need help oranything like that, you know
here.
I'm going to leave somebusiness cards here.
It's confidential, you know,come in and talk to me, or you
know, just tell them thedifferent type of therapies you
offer, if it's talk therapy orvirtual or what have you start
there, kind of build a rapport,and maybe even the idea is

(01:05:56):
depending on building thatrapport if you have an option to
do a ride-along with an officer, see.

Speaker 1 (01:06:04):
I would love to do that.
I would absolutely love to dothat.

Speaker 2 (01:06:07):
Because that's the officer's office and sure
there's camera systems in thereand stuff like that and maybe
some officers might not feelcomfortable opening up to you.
But you build that rapport andif there's a way to make sure
the camera's off and you'redriving around in their office,
you'd be surprised what they mayopen up and share with you.

Speaker 1 (01:06:27):
Oh, that's a great idea.
Thank you, and that's.

Speaker 2 (01:06:31):
I think that's important.
I mean, I became a certifiedpeer specialist in the state of
Wisconsin and I focus mainly onpolice and first responders and
I know how difficult it is tobreak through that stigma and
have an officer open up to you,especially if they don't know
you and they don't know maybewhat's the hidden agenda here.

(01:06:51):
Our leadership might have thisguy pop in at roll call and now
he wants to ride with us.
Yeah, I'm not talking to thisguy, but if you can build a
rapport and ride along with evenone person and that officer
starts talking to the otherofficers, like hey, this Matt
guy, he's pretty great.
You were talking about this andthat, and do you know that Matt

(01:07:14):
can do this too?
And this helped me and all that, I mean it's a start and you
may have to do that.
It may not work at the firstpolice department, it may not
work at the first sheriff'sdepartment.
You may have to kind of hit afew of them first before you get
moving.
But I think that's a start andI think that would really be

(01:07:34):
important work if you were ableto do that?

Speaker 1 (01:07:37):
And what about something less maybe invasive,
like offering trainings on it,like even like self-care?
Like coming in and saying likehey, let's do a training on
self-care, like how, do you?
Take care of yourself.

Speaker 2 (01:07:46):
You can do that.
I'm assuming every lawenforcement agency is similar to
the agencies here in Wisconsin.
You know, every year you haveto have a certain amount of
hours for recertification andyou could easily reach out to
the police and sheriff'sdepartment state patrol in your
neck of the woods and basicallysay, hey, I'd like to come in
and offer an hour or two, offerin-service training about

(01:08:08):
self-care, and they'll tell youyes or they'll tell you no.
I mean, we have people do thatfor us all the time.

Speaker 1 (01:08:14):
Oh man, I would love to do that.

Speaker 2 (01:08:16):
I mean it's, and then you just basically show up and
do your thing and share witheverybody.
You know why self-care isimportant and what they can do
in the privacy of their own home, where nobody's going to know.
You know if you're struggling,this may help you, that might
help you, and you can do that onyour own and nobody will know.
So it's yeah, I think thatwould be really beneficial.

Speaker 1 (01:08:40):
Thank you, adam.
I really appreciate thatbecause it's something I really
would like to do, so I'm goingto I'm certainly going to pursue
that.
What final pieces of advicewould you give to the listeners
on, maybe, things that they cando to help end the stigma?

Speaker 2 (01:08:55):
Right.
My biggest thing is it's okayto talk about your mental health
.
You are not alone.
Please don't suffer in silence.
If you're suffering, pleasereach out.
Even if you don't understandwhat you're going through, you
can tell them hey, something'sjust not sitting well with me.
I don't understand this, but Iknow something's not right.

(01:09:16):
I need some help.
There's so many people outthere, there's so many resources
out there that are willing tohelp you, even complete
strangers.
I learned that after myshooting, that complete
strangers were praying for me,that were thinking about me.
So there's people out there,there's resources out there, and
if you know somebody a familymember, a friend, a colleague

(01:09:40):
that's struggling and you can'tdo the whole face-to-face thing,
send them a text message, sendthem an email.
Technology nowadays is great.
There are so many ways tocommunicate with people.
We're on our phones all thetime and it what 10 seconds to
say hey, buddy, I'm thinking ofyou, you need anything?
Let me know.
That means a lot, even if theydon't admit it.
They.

(01:10:00):
They know that somebody'spaying attention to them and
looking out for them.
So please try to do something.
If you see that somebody'sstruggling, please try to do
something, because with myexperience.
I find it very hard to believethat nobody realized that I was
struggling through the years.
I think they did, but I thinkthey didn't know how to approach

(01:10:22):
me or they didn't know what todo, so they chose not to do
anything, and a simple textcould save a life.
A simple text could meaneverything to a person who's
suffering.

Speaker 1 (01:10:34):
The tough part, adam, is I think we have.
Our society is becoming moreand more narcissistic, and I
don't mean like personalitydisorder, I just mean people are
so conditioned to only careabout I think COVID did a big
number on this too what'shappening to them.
Yeah.
And it's so different than whatit was when I was growing up,

(01:10:55):
where people were more investedin like what their neighbors
were doing and like having theserelationships, and it just
seems like that human connectionis disappearing.

Speaker 2 (01:11:03):
Oh yeah, I mean, when I was little, I remember we
knew all our neighbors.
Our neighbors would come over,knock on the door and say, hey,
can I get some sugar?
Can I get a cup of sugar?
Do you have any milk?
You know we knew everybody Now.
It's just different.
Nowadays it's not like it was.

Speaker 1 (01:11:22):
I wish we could find a way to go back to that.
We can get there.
We just got to be positive.
One of the last things I wantedto ask you, too, is you won an
award for something to do withlike increasing mental health
awareness, right?

Speaker 2 (01:11:33):
I did A lot of my mental health advocacies.
Somebody watched me speak at aNAMI walks event and submitted
an award for me because of allmy mental health advocacy, and
that's great.
When they came to our town hallmeeting and presented me with

(01:11:58):
the award, I guess I neverrealized all the different
things that I've been doing.
But when they're readingeverything I'm like, wow, I took
a step back and I'm like, wow,yeah, I've been doing a lot and
I do what I do because I want tohelp people.
I want to help at least oneperson.
I'm hoping that you and Italking today it can reach one

(01:12:20):
person and if it doesn't, thenit's worth it.
And one thing that we did startthis year I approached Chief
McGee and said, hey, I want todo some kind of mental health
program at the police departmentand maybe something called like
Mental Health Mondays and whatwe do, and he supported it 100%.
He's like go right ahead.

(01:12:40):
And what we do is the firstMonday of every month, we share
somebody's personal andprofessional mental health
journey somebody from ourcommunity and what I do is
during the month, I sit downwith them and write their story
up and we share that on oursocial media.
It also gets shared in the localnewspaper and the county

(01:13:03):
newspaper, and it's greatbecause we're trying to bridge
that gap, not only betweenpolice officers and people with
mental health, but we want tonormalize mental health also by
sharing people's personal andprofessional experiences.
It's to the point now thatpeople are reaching out to us
saying they want to share theirexperience.

(01:13:24):
So and we've only been doing itfor 12 months and it's great
We've I've I've interviewedpeople who were incarcerated for
14 years, people who hadbipolar, people who have
schizophrenia, major depressivedisorder similar to me, anorexia
, all kinds of stuff, and it'sgreat and these are members of

(01:13:47):
our community that arecontributing, members of the
community that they just havemental health challenges, like
most of us do, and we're justdoing our best to normalize it,
like you know, one month at atime, and it's really helping
and I'm really grateful for thatand grateful for Chief McGee's

(01:14:07):
support, because he could havesaid no and he said yeah, let's
do this.

Speaker 1 (01:14:11):
Every time you say Chief McGee, I just think of
NCIS.

Speaker 2 (01:14:14):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:14:15):
Like every time you say, chief McGee, I just think
of NCIS.
Oh yeah, like every time yousay that you know what you made
me think of.
There was a program that iscalled Wire of Hope.
Have you ever heard of it?
No, I haven't.
No, so it's a program thatallows people to write to
incarcerated prisoners.

Speaker 2 (01:14:32):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:14:32):
And there's research behind it that shows that if
they have a healthy support onthe outside, that their
recidivism rate decreases, aslong as it's a healthy support.
And sadly, I wrote to oneperson who I thought was doing
really well and he got out and Ithink he ended up relapsing,
unfortunately, and kind ofdisappeared.
But I've been talking to himfor like two years and he was
going to come on the show at onepoint and it's kind of very sad

(01:14:54):
, but mental health iseverywhere and it's kind of very
sad, but you know, mentalhealth is everywhere, right?
And I think we all have to tryto help each other as much as we
can.
So, adam, thank you so much.
It's been an absolute pleasureto talk to you and I'm going to
put is it okay if I put the bioin the description that you sent
me?
Absolutely All right, perfect.
So thank you everybody forlistening and if you haven't

(01:15:16):
given me a five-star rating yet,please do so and like and
follow.
Thank you.
Thank you, adam.
Yeah, thank you again forlistening.

(01:15:45):
This is just a reminder that nopart of this podcast can be
duplicated or copied withoutwritten consent from either
myself or wendy thank you again.