April 21, 2025 • 53 mins
Kate, a Ukrainian immigrant living in the US for 25 years, shares her journey navigating American systems while maintaining deep connections to her homeland during Russia's ongoing invasion.
• Describes how Russian cultural dominance and systematic erasure of Ukrainian identity extends back centuries, not just since 2014
• Explains coming to America as a young widow seeking opportunities for her child
• Details the challenges of navigating the American legal system as an immigrant mother
• Recounts her 15-year battle for child custody and support, costing over $130,000
• Shares experience supporting another immigrant woman escaping domestic violence
• Discusses using photography and art to raise awareness about Ukraine's ongoing struggle
• Emphasizes that immigrants enhance American society and aren't seeking handouts
• Advocates for more accessible legal support for immigrant women fleeing abuse
The prosthetic center: https://superhumans.com/en/
The group that had therapeutic support: https://www.weira.org/
The domestic violence shelter: https://www.nextdoorsolutions.org/
Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!):
https://uppbeat.io/t/hartzmann/no-time-to-die
License code: S4CEQWLNQXVZUMU4
Artwork and logo design by Misty Rae.
Special thanks to Joanna Roux for editing help.
Special thanks to the listeners and all the wonderful people who helped listen to and provide feedback on the episode's prerelease.
Please feel free to email Matt topics or suggestions, questions or feedback.
Matt@unitedstatesofPTSD.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
This podcast is not intended to serve as therapeutic
advice or to replace anyprofessional treatment.
These opinions belong to us anddo not reflect any company or
agency.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Hi everybody and welcome back to another episode
of the United States of PTSD.
I wanted to welcome back DrErica Hendel, who is going to be
helping me as a co-host for therest of season three.
Thank you, erica, and welcomeback.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Oh, you're most welcome.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Thank you, and thanks to everyone for listening in
and also thank you for lining upthese great guest speakers that
we have, and you'll introduceour guest speaker today.
But before that I just wanted todo a quick PSA.
So if you live in the NewEngland area, connecticut, rhode
Island, new Hampshire,massachusetts, right now, there
appears to be there's rumblingsthat they are concerned there's
(01:07):
a possible serial killer on theloose, because they have found,
I think, seven bodies now thatare all women and have been
connected to hiking trails.
So be very careful.
They're not officially sayingit's a serial killer yet, but
there certainly is a lot ofspeculation around it.
So, as somebody who is an avidhiker, make sure you are safe,
carry, you know, carry what youneed to carry with you, whether
(01:28):
it's bear spray, pepper spray,or, if you live in a state where
you can be armed, let somebodyknow where you're going.
It's a good idea to share yourlocation and tell at least one
person where you're going andjust obviously be cautious and
aware of your surroundings.
And that is my PSA for that.
So, erica, I will defer back toyou.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
All right, it is my great pleasure to be having this
conversation with Kate today.
Kate is from Ukraine and is acitizen United States citizen
and so we share a lot ofinterests and we share similar
things that we care about.
(02:07):
We met with our common love ofart and ocean, and through this
time we've talked about manythings, and she utilizes her art
and photography to empowerpeople.
We have hopes to work together,and she's just an incredible
human being and here to talk tous about her experiences in the
(02:29):
United States, being someone animmigrant in the United States
and a naturalized citizen andher experiences a Ukrainian
living through this time andwitnessing these things while
also carrying things that shehas in the past.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
So, um, thank you for being here hi, erica, thank you
very much for inviting me andthank you for your kind words.
Yes, I'm kate and I'm fromukraine.
I've been in the united statesfor almost 25 years.
I can call it my country nowand I'm a citizen.
(03:10):
I'm a mother.
Kids are grown up, so that partis kind of behind and I find a
lot of joy and pleasure doingart.
Now.
I'm now meeting many wonderfulpeople through this adventure
and also trying to make sure orfind my way to utilize art to
(03:36):
raise awareness for people ofUkraine to the events in Ukraine
.
So that's my current realityevery day, you know, since
actually 2014,.
Around that time, I constantlywatch news, talk to my friends
(03:56):
by there and, of course, youknow, after full invasion in
2022, there is no single daywhen I would not think about
what's going on there,especially because I'm from
eastern part of Ukraine.
That's where most you knowactive battles happening and
(04:17):
sharing, so it's also everythingthat's very dear to my heart.
Of course, it has its ownimpact on my mental state and
everyday life.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Thank you for sharing that, and thank you so much for
pointing out how this didn'tstart in February of 2022 and
that this started back in 2014with the illegal annexation,
shall we say, of Crimea.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
Of Crimea.
That's correct.
It actually started evenearlier, or it would be right to
say it never stopped whatRussia did to Ukrainian people.
It goes on centuries, you know.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Thank you for that correction.
When you think about your timebefore leaving and then coming
to the United States and thisarc, what if there was something
that you would share that youfind is like this perspective of
like it's been going on sincealways right, where?
(05:20):
What would you say to kind ofthe average American citizen
that might not have thatknowledge?
Speaker 3 (05:29):
I left Ukraine for a specific reason.
I lost my husband.
He passed away very early and Iwas a young widow with a child
on my hands and at that time Ijust didn't want to stay there.
(05:52):
And, of course, the UnitedStates was always presented as a
dream country.
Everything is easy here.
It was mostly based on you knowwhat we saw on TV, right, I did
(06:12):
not think much about where I'mgoing, what's ahead.
I also met my ex-husband, sobasically brought me here.
But sorry, what was yourquestion?
Speaker 1 (06:30):
oh well, let's, let's continue on this path.
As far as your journey herebecause I think um understanding
, like when you came here and,yes, you know your experience
here is important I remember.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
And what I want American people to know that all
these lies about Russians beingpersecuted or pressured there.
It's not true.
It is not true.
I'm actually Russian-speakingUkrainian At that time.
My dad is from Siberia, so heis he's Russian right, but the
(07:08):
family spent most of the time inUkraine.
I was born in Ukraine, I wasraised in Ukraine and never,
ever, we felt any pressure fornot speaking Ukrainian or
something.
At the time, everything waslike in Russian.
Russian culture would comefirst.
(07:30):
We would have only a couple ofdays at school to learn
Ukrainian and, on top ofeverything, I was the only
single student in school who wasexcused from studying Ukrainian
just because my family lived inRussia, and somebody decided
(07:53):
that I don't need Ukrainian.
Why I was so privileged, Idon't know.
I had no issues.
I was studying, I participatedin all, but that was the reality
of that time.
And then things started changingand when I graduated from high
school, it was when the SovietUnion fell apart and that's when
(08:18):
they started introducing moreof Ukrainian culture.
And at first we were actuallyresisting, because everything
that is forcibly put on you, youkind of resist to those changes
.
But looking back and you know,I'm much older now, and
(08:40):
especially like you come to theUnited States, you speak English
, you learn English, you learnhistory.
Nobody is English.
You learn history.
Nobody is questioning is itright or wrong?
Right, it's normal.
So at some point I was startingquestioning myself and other
people like why is it a big dealfor Ukrainians to want to speak
Ukrainian, right?
Or why is it a big deal thatUkraine has its own history?
(09:05):
It was wiped.
They tried really hard to wipeit out and wipe identity and
even for people who are like 10,15 years younger than me, they
already learned and know muchmore about Ukrainian history
than we did because we were nottaught.
(09:26):
And when I talk to them rightnow, they're looking at me like
how come you don't know that?
I said no, I never knew thatthat was not what was presented
to us at that time.
But Ukraine is a beautifulcountry with rich history, which
was not wiped out completely.
(09:50):
You know they were able topreserve it, but they were
trying and still trying, reallyhard.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Kate, you brought up so many great topics, but I want
to go back first because, firstof all, I want to acknowledge
that this is difficult for youto talk about, and I also want
to acknowledge that I'm sorryabout the loss of your husband
as well.
One of the first things you hadstated which I heard from I've
heard this from other people yousaid you had this expectation
(10:18):
about what the United States wasgoing to be like, and I
remember I had a student yearsago.
She was from Africa, I don'tremember what country she was
from I think it may have beenGhana, but this was like
probably six or seven years agoand she had this impression that
the United States was going tohave a streets paved of gold and
like kind of all of these bigthings.
Cause that's what she was toldand she had said when she got
(10:40):
here, she was very astonished byhow, like, how rude people were
to her when she got here.
She was very astonished by how,like, how rude people were to
her when she got off the planeand like how it wasn't what she
expected.
So I don't know if you had likea similar experience or if
that's something that, um, youcan relate to um, it was
definitely different, uh, fromwhat I expected, and you
(11:01):
definitely feel it immediately.
Speaker 3 (11:04):
I mean when I say feel it, I mean I refer to that
time, right, so it was.
It was very different from whatI used to see.
I wasn't well traveled, I wasnot exposed to many other
cultures many and of course Iwas a product of that time that
(11:27):
culture that I would say all ofRussians, ukrainians,
post-soviet people.
We felt like we're superior,maybe like this right, and there
is a lot of joke.
They still feel like that,especially russians, you know,
(11:50):
they might have nothing, theymight have restaurants outside
right, they might not have pavedroads, but they would still be
there saying like you're stupidamericans, we will show you how
things are done.
It's laughable, but that's whatit is.
And definitely when I came outof the plane, everything was
(12:13):
different and you're animmigrant.
They don't say like welcomehome or welcome here.
I don't think things changemuch now, but you face and trust
, you face questions and it'spretty intimidating to come here
(12:35):
first time as an immigrant oreven a visitor because of that
uncertainty.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
And I can only feel for people who come here now or
decide not to come okay, theother really interesting, I
think important thing you hadmentioned was how history gets
erased right and how we don'ttalk about certain things, and
(13:02):
then, of course, theimplementation of propaganda and
how that spreads.
I was I just recently showed avideo in one of my classes that
was called how to Survive aPlague and it was about the AIDS
epidemic in the 80s, and I wasactually really shocked for two
things.
One, by how many students inthe class didn't even know there
was an AIDS epidemic in the 80s.
(13:23):
That was problem number one,which I was very shocked by.
But the other thing that Ithought was fascinating was
listening to the, because it wasa documentary and it did take
the place over the course of 10years.
How nothing really changes.
So there were parts where theywere blaming immigrants for the
AIDS virus as well.
Like there's always this blameand shift onto others, right,
(13:45):
like, and it's the narrative isalways always the same.
I think of covid and how, likeyou know, trump called it the
china virus.
Like we're always trying to umvilify people who are from
different countries erroneously.
We erroneously vilify them, butwe need to stop doing that.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
Yes, absolutely, and again, I didn't have it that
difficult, I would say, becauseI'm white, right, I don't look
any different from averageAmerican.
But I always feel for peoplethat you don't even need, they
not even ask, they immediatelyassume that they're foreigners
(14:25):
because they look different,they speak different, stuff,
like that.
So, yes, we all, we don't knowwhat we're not told, right, and
it takes some efforts to go andfind the information.
Educate yourself, which is whatwe're doing now most of the
time, right, and being beingcurious and being, like, exposed
(14:53):
to both ukrainian and russianculture and watching old news
like firsthand.
I don't need this to betranslated by american outlets,
right, I can hear it firsthandand, oh my god, like I would.
I don't watch russian tv, buthere and there you know some
(15:15):
news.
It's like all this propaganda,the way they twist the truth and
what's right now on TV and howthings are being presented it's
so similar, it's justastonishing and mind-blowing.
They are experts at the use ofheadlines, because they know
that people don't justnecessarily read an article.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
They just read a headline.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
I'm going to take a moment because when you talked
about this cultural erasure, Ithink it's important to note, as
far as that is part of this, um, genocide like definitions,
right, um, and so I appreciateso much all like the, the
(16:04):
greater context that you aresharing with us um, but I do I
would do want to mentionspecifically for our audience
that you can go look at the ungenocide prevention sites that
have the definitions of genocideand also also the clarity
(16:26):
around the you knowclassification and the
international recognition ofwhat has happened in Ukraine,
that Russia has violatedinternational law repeatedly and
also that this aspect ofdestroying the culture, erasure
(16:46):
and some of the forcibletransferals of children that
they've engaged in is resultingin that classification, and I
just appreciate how you canbring that larger context that
kind of reaffirms what has beenhappening.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
Yeah, and again, like it's not the first time,
ukraine fought hard to get theinternational society to
recognize genocide that washappening in the 1930s, because
they didn't want.
And in particular my owngrandmother.
(17:28):
She was laying in bed swollenfrom hunger.
They had nothing to eat.
They were making soup out ofjust grass.
They were basically eatinggrass just to survive and it was
famine that was artificiallymade for people, and especially
Ukraine.
Ukraine is a basket of Europe.
(17:50):
Ukraine has, you know, allthose soil, very, very fertile
soil, and they grow lots ofproduce, and you know everything
was taken from people and, andyou know everything was taken
from people and people.
Lots of people died and it wasnot acknowledged properly.
(18:11):
And what's happening now.
That's genocide.
There are almost 20,000 people,if not more, were taken away
from Ukraine to Russia, weretaken away from Ukraine to
Russia.
Some kids get adopted, which islike when they still have
(18:32):
parents alive and Ukraine isfighting hard to return those
kids.
I want to believe that theywill be able to get all of them,
but I'm also very skepticalwhen and how it will happen, and
you know it will take years anddamage is done.
(18:53):
So it's very.
Everything is veryheartbreaking.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
I agreed when you brought up children.
It makes me think of because,again, the importance of knowing
history is that it repeatsitself, which is why we really
need to be conscious of, likehow these things happen all the
children that disappeared herewhen their parents were deported
or taken away.
I mean, there's a lot ofchildren that have gone missing
it breaks my heart.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
I feel for.
I feel for every child and Ifeel for every parent.
I physically feel the pain andall those emotions they're going
through.
And what I want to emphasizeimmigrants are not criminals.
They're just people who want abetter life for themselves, for
their children, and being animmigrant in this country in my
(19:43):
opinion, it makes you morecareful, more cautious.
You're like more low obediencethan maybe average American
people, because you're afraid oflots of things.
And to put a stamp on you andclaiming that you're a criminal,
it's wrong claiming that you'rea criminal.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
It's wrong Because we're talking about this.
The legal system, right, andthe legal complexity and, like
you mentioned, right, the delay,right, the years that it can
take to try and just address theharm that has already been done
, or the separation and otheraspects of how the legal system,
(20:29):
you know, if we look at thecontext of the United States and
your experience of it, as youknow, an immigrant and as a
woman, I know that there arethings that you have to share
that I think are reallyimportant for our audience to
hear, to provide that contextand awareness of the fact that
(20:51):
in some ways, we do have a legalsystem that impacts people
differently in this countrybased off of your status, your
ways.
That marginalized identityshows up and particularly with
immigrants and people whoEnglish is not their first
language.
Speaker 3 (21:11):
Oh yes, legal system is very I don't even know how to
call it.
I had a very difficultexperience navigating a legal
system.
At the same time, I had somepositive experience and I had
(21:34):
good lawyers and I had badlawyers, and I had people who
were trying to make my life hardhere and people, complete
strangers, who were helping mealong the way.
But as a mother, as a foreigner, you immediately lose an accord
(21:56):
, especially if you have a manwho's fighting you and fighting
you not for the best children ofyour best interest of your
children.
He's just fighting you becausehe's fighting you.
He's not fighting for children.
And in this case, I had thisbelief and everybody around me
(22:21):
used to tell me oh, americancourt, they're always like on
the mother's side.
No, they are not.
They are not and it was justeye opening.
And again, we're talking about20 years ago, right?
So I want to believe thatthings changed to better.
(22:46):
But I spent.
I spent like 15 years in thissystem while I was fighting for
the custody of my son and aswell as child support Saga.
So I've seen a lot and I'veseen other women going through
(23:10):
similar issues and most of them,if you don't have
representation right away, whichmost of them don't.
If you don't know how thesystem works and of course you
don't because you're not raisedhere it's very difficult and
(23:30):
I've seen mothers losingchildren just because they're in
this disadvantaged positionlack of English, lack of funds,
lack of support and just thejudge doesn't want to hear you.
It's a lot of work to actuallylook into case and think about
(23:57):
it and usually that side who canpresent it better on the paper
wins, unfortunately.
I mean, I can talk hours aboutmy experience and I can also
talk hours about experiencebeing in a shelter for battered
(24:20):
women, which I would like to say.
Thank you for this networkbecause it is there for women
who need help.
Unfortunately, not many women,like immigrant women, know about
(24:41):
this system, but it is there,it is working.
It takes a long time but if youstick to the system, you know
they can help you.
They can help you to you know,find the roof above your head.
They can help you with food,your immediate needs, what you
(25:03):
need when you leave your abuser,and they provide you with
resources.
Again, resources is good, butfunds would be better, because
free legal help is not alwaysquality help and, from my
experience, sometimes it makesthem worse.
(25:24):
But not everyone has access toa legal representation and can
afford it and that's why a lotof women they do mistakes,
partially because, again, likethey don't know the system,
they're not from here and don'tnecessarily work here the same
way they imagine and it's beenused against them.
(25:47):
They're being I forget thisword not painted, so they don't.
They they might not have likebad will, but they're being
misinterpreted and claimed as Idon't know, bad parent or
(26:11):
abusive parent or stuff likethis.
So it is difficult.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
To add to what you were just talking about.
The population I worked withfor a very long time was
pregnant postpartum women whowere using substances or had
substance use disorders, and Ican vouch for everything you
just said in terms of the legalsystem.
The legal system is incrediblysexist.
It holds women, especially moms, to a higher standard and I
(26:40):
have seen kids taken away incircumstances where it was a
cultural issue or something thatwas culturally appropriate for
that family and there's a reasonwhy it's illegal I think it's
in 14 states in this country toremove dogs, puppies from dogs
before the age of eight weeksold because of how much damage
it does to the puppy.
But we don't have that samestandard for people, which is
(27:03):
terrible.
But I 100% agree with you.
I've seen that play out over andover and over again and you had
brought up child support andI've seen that system too, where
it's it's terrible.
I've seen moms, you know, know,take tons of time out of work
to go to, to go to court becausethe dad's not paying and then
end up getting in trouble withtheir jobs because they're
(27:23):
taking time out of work when thedad's not showing up at court.
They just keep extending it andit's.
It's just this nuts system,right that.
So I mean I can't even imaginewhat that system would be like
if you're not from the countryand don't know how to navigate
it Like that would be even worse, because it's hard to navigate
even if you know what'shappening.
Speaker 3 (27:44):
Yeah, for me it was a little bit better because by
that time I already spokeEnglish, I already could
navigate, you know, around orask for help.
But some girls they don't evenhave that, like the one I was
recently helping.
She lived with an abuser.
He was physically violent, hehad weapons, he threatened her
(28:08):
many times.
They had twins, you know girlswere like around one year old at
that time, or a year and a half, and she asked for help in a
facebook group and somehow Ifelt connected to her because it
was very, um, like similar towhat I went through and I knew
(28:34):
that if she doesn't get that,she needs help.
And I knew exactly what helpshe needs because I know step
one, two, three, four.
So I reached out to her and Isaid, like, if you're ready to
leave your abuser, I can, I canhelp you, I can tell you, you
know where to turn for help andwhat to do.
(28:56):
So same day I showed up at herdoor.
I had laptop on me, I had somemoney, I had some, you know,
paper, I had all the necessitiesbecause she was, she needed to
be ready to start the fight andI told her you what shelter
network she needs to call and itwas during COVID.
(29:18):
So they offered a hotel roomfor her at that time.
But it was something they puther away from that guy and I
also saw her going through thislegal unjust.
The guy took away the car fromher.
She needed a car for her kidsso we gave her our car.
(29:39):
The guy put her off his deed sohe sold the place.
They lived.
She got almost nothing andcourt they supported him.
They didn't want to hear.
You know that he was physicallyviolent.
She had pictures, everything,but he had respected attorney on
his side and she had publicrepresentative which were like,
(30:03):
kept changing.
She had almost three or fourattorneys.
I remember that took her caseover and over and she most like
in many things he's paying.
He's not even paying her.
He left the country but at thetime judge didn't want to listen
to her and I even went to courtwith her.
(30:25):
I wrote some legal documentsfor her because I wish that
there was somebody at the time Iwas going through for me to
help me, to help me understandwhat I need to do or even like
support me mentally, or I meanthere were people.
People come to your life forreason, reason or lifetime, and
(30:48):
I met different people fordifferent purpose during my oh
not adventure struggles.
But all this very traumatic.
And of course, it makes hugeimpact on your children because,
unfortunately, my childreninstead of seeing me happy I
(31:13):
tried, I didn't just have enoughtime for everything, but most
of the time they saw me crying,staying up at nights, writing
declaration after declaration,struggling to balance work and
their school, doctors,entertainment, this and that,
and I wanted to give them asmuch as I could but they
(31:35):
couldn't do much at that time.
And, of course, theirconsequences of course it
impacted them.
Of course they go through theirown struggles and sometime I'm
even being blamed for their Idon't know lack of something
(31:56):
that I ruined their I don't knowlack of something that I ruined
their childhood, and stuff likethis which is very painful to
hear.
And of course, I get indefensive mode trying to remind
them over and over that I was avictim of those circumstances
and I did my best to go throughand survive and provide.
(32:19):
But I still think it's happyend for me.
We survived, we went throughthat difficult time.
My divorce cost me over$130,000 because my ex did
(32:39):
everything he could just todelay, just to, I don't know,
make it difficult.
So I would.
Sometimes I would come up withsome amount of money I could pay
the attorney.
But and he's not alone I seethis practice from lots of guys
(33:01):
who are fighting their wives.
They just delay this processuntil you run out of money to
pay for your attorney and thenthey can come back and get you
because you're not representedproperly.
Come back and get you becauseyou're not represented properly.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
So, kate I, there are a couple of things that I want
to reflect back.
Number one your, like yourdirect action work that you just
described in supporting thisother human being is I am like I
stand in like greatappreciation and just I'm so
(33:44):
honored to be connected to youum, because this level of
systemic oppression and that istremendous and also highlights,
(34:10):
for example, like the Republicanadministration and Trump have
declared English the officiallanguage of the United States.
This removes funding forinterpreters in the legal system
.
So the type of direct actionwork that you're describing as
far as being present, beingthere, is something that is both
(34:36):
tremendously powerful and so,for example, if anyone listening
to this, if that's somethingthat resonates with you and you
can find a legal immigrant legalsupport organization that you
can support in that way, or thatyou can send funding that way,
that's really important.
A lot of translators have beentalking about this issue, and so
(34:58):
you being part of that is justtremendous and thank you so much
for sharing that.
Speaker 3 (35:02):
Yeah, I think the message I would like to send to
women in this situation don't beafraid to talk about problems
you're going through, don't beafraid to ask for help, because
there are people who will help.
Not everybody will, but andusually helps would come not
(35:26):
from wealthy or established, orhelp will have will come from
people who feel your pain, whowent through similar events, who
knows how it is to be on thestreet or to be worrying how to
feed your children.
There are people who will helpand there is no shame in asking
(35:52):
for that.
But of course, you need to belike, genuine, because there are
some people for example, when Iwas in a shelter, there were
women who would just call there,say, oh, my boyfriend abused me
and they would get a place tostay, food to eat and in some
(36:14):
time, in a few days, they goback to those boyfriends or
something.
They were using this andabusing basically the system
that was available.
It was in place for people tohelp people, you know, who
really need that help.
Speaker 2 (36:28):
So although I do think it's important to note
that it does take, on average, avictim seven attempts to leave
a relationship that's abusivebefore they leave.
So it may also be that thepeople are not ready for that,
because we see that a lot in alot with addictions too, because
, as we know, right now,addiction is considered a
disease by the american medicalassociation and it's about seven
(36:52):
times that it takes somebody toget sober.
So oftentimes, when they comeinto detox for four or five, six
times, people are like, oh,they're not serious about their
sobriety, they're just using abed.
But the reality is is thatthey're just not there yet.
So I do also want toacknowledge that.
But, I do think the otherimportant part of that and when
(37:13):
you talk about getting help, Ithink getting help is incredible
and I think what you did isabsolutely incredible I do think
you have to for people.
They have to be vigilant,because what I would see that
happened to working with womenin addiction is it was really
common that they would find likean older man who would come in
and like, rescue them Right, sothey would.
He would come in and give thema place to stay and, you know,
(37:34):
give them resources and helpthem get on their feet, but then
, as the that woman would startto get healthier.
She didn't need him as much, sothen she would start to, you
know, change things and thenwhat would inevitably happen is
that same person that washelping her in the beginning
would then sabotage her so thatshe went back to using so that
he needed, so that she neededhim again.
(37:54):
So that's just.
Speaker 3 (37:56):
You got to be really careful of that as well yeah,
that's, that's why, like goingback to that girl, that's why I
asked her if she's ready, ifthat's you know decision,
because I warned her it's gonnabe long road, it's gonna be a
long way and it's gonna it's notgonna be easy way, but if
(38:16):
you're ready, if you can gothrough, you can do it and she's
in much better place right now.
She she's got housing you knowtheir organization help and
she's got help for her children,because children have some
mental issues, because the guywas, uh, abusing drugs, I think
so.
So there's some stuff and she'sokay.
(38:41):
She's navigating, she's on herfeet.
But we started from simpleopening bank account for her,
checking her credit history.
She didn't know how to do it.
She didn't know what PayPal isand I needed her to have PayPal
because I organized fundraisingand stuff like this.
So I needed her to have PayPalbecause I organized fundraising
and stuff like this.
So I taught her basic things.
You know, I basically put her onfeed so she can move on and,
(39:06):
honestly, at some point I neededto let her go, because it made
such an impact on my mentalhealth, because suddenly I found
myself living her life.
My family was put behind, myhusband was put behind every
because I only lived with, withher problems constantly and I
(39:30):
still needed to work and careabout my stuff.
So some point it became toomuch on me and I said like, okay
, girl, you have a reason, justmove on and do it.
You can do it and we stayfriends.
We, you know, we call to eachother.
I check on her not every daylike it used to be, but you know
she's dear to my heart and ofcourse I wish all the best to
(39:51):
them.
Speaker 1 (39:54):
I I very much appreciate your description and
acknowledgement of what we call,like the the advocacy
individual's self-care checkplan right, that you have to
find a balance and also makesure that you are also tending
(40:16):
to the things that you need totend to in yourself and also
your own mental health.
So thank you so much for likeexemplifying that and describing
it.
I wanted to invite because Iwanted us to open our
conversation, shifting over tosome of the future projects that
you have planned for yourselfand and talking about your work
(40:43):
now in in advocacy work and how,how you feel people can
continue to support bothUkrainian Americans as well as
Ukraine and the things that youhave envisioned and planning
(41:20):
better and better, especiallyafter my kids were out of the
nest.
Speaker 3 (41:22):
I suddenly got a little bit more time for myself
and I've got a new passion whichI started to build on.
But again, like the warcontinued, full invasion
happened and I mentallystruggled a lot because, on one
hand, I wanted to create, Iwanted to share my art with
(41:45):
people, and, on the other hand,there was war and there was bad
news every day and it wasmentally very difficult for me
and it was mentally verydifficult for me.
So I tried to combine my artNot combine, that is not the
(42:05):
right word.
I tried to use my art as a wayof oh God, here is my English as
a second language.
I I don't have right words todescribe my feelings, but
basically what the artists cando, they, they speak this
(42:25):
through their art, right?
So when the world just broke Imean active faith and state, and
I was planned to go on vacationand during my vacation time I
happened to meet a girl fromUkraine and she was on the
(42:46):
island and I came to the islandwith some Ukrainian props in
order to create something to.
I just needed to go back to myroots.
I just needed to speak throughmy art, bring awareness or I
don't know.
(43:06):
I didn't really know what to do, I just wanted to do something.
So we had a photo session withher.
She modeled for me in Ukrainian, some Ukrainian like outfit,
and then I had like few sessionswith other girls.
We would just dress inUkrainian, again like clothes,
(43:31):
put in Ukrainian dress on our.
So that's where I find, that'show I can express myself.
And also lately I wasentertaining this idea.
War left many people disabledand they're lucky that they're
(43:58):
alive right.
Lots of people were killed, butalso lots of people lost their
legs or arms, and this is youngguys, young boys.
It's tragedy.
And I've been following somecenter in Western Ukraine who do
free prosthetics for thosepeople and I think about an idea
(44:25):
to visit that center at somepoint in time and maybe have a
photo session with them, maybehave a photo session with them.
It should be a very powerfulphoto session with a very
(44:46):
powerful message.
I'm still trying to figure outhow to present it, but I'd like
to bring awareness of people notonly of American people and
around the world that you knowthe war is not over.
Consequences of this war aregoing to linger for a long time.
(45:07):
You know, I don't think it'sever possible to forgive Russia
for what they did and I findmyself in a difficult position
to even communicate to Russianpeople, especially if they
support Russia.
You know, I have lots offriends and I'm always and some
are very good people, but theymentally, whenever I hear
(45:33):
Russian, it just puts me onalert immediately.
I immediately want to checktheir position.
Do they support Ukraine or not?
Trying to figure out how I cancommunicate with them.
So anyway, back to my projects.
Yes, I want to create somethingpowerful for people to keep
(45:57):
supporting Ukraine.
Ukraine needs help, ukraineneeds a lot of help, a lot of
support, and I feel so.
I don't know if I should beashamed for current government
for turning their backs onUkraine, but I am ashamed, I am
devastated.
(46:18):
There's all sorts of emotions.
It's hard to believe that theyare going to give up on Ukraine
and just to watch how it's been,you know, wiped once again by
Russia.
It's been, you know, wiped onceagain by Russia.
It's so unjust, it's so I meanit makes sense from Russian
(46:44):
point.
But you know, ukrainian peopledo not deserve it To blame
Zelensky for starting the war,which he did not.
It's like come on like whatchoir do you preach to?
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (47:01):
So yeah, as an artist , like artists speak or talk
through their art, and that'swhere I'm kind of am at this
point and thank you for doingthat, because art is and has
always been powerful and it hasbeen a way to like fight against
(47:23):
the system too.
So thank you for doing that.
As somebody who's not creativeat all in terms of like that
type of art, I really appreciateit.
I wish I could be, but I'm not,so thank you for doing that.
And just in the last couple ofminutes we have what what's?
If you could, if trying tothink how to phrase this is
(47:47):
there something that you wouldwant to talk to the listeners
listeners about to help elicitempathy for people who are
coming into the country or whoare struggling with the
immigration process?
Speaker 3 (48:04):
Yes, of course, and as I already said, those people
are not criminals.
Those people enhance thiscountry.
They bring every culture hassomething good to learn from,
right, and we are all immigrantshere.
(48:24):
It's just a matter of time whenour ancestors came here.
So I guess Native Americans arethe only people who can say,
really say something, and therest came here different period,
different period of time, andso you cannot say like you're an
american and somebody is not.
But that's unfortunate reality.
(48:46):
And being an american, havinglike lots of american I mean
immigrant, uh, having lots ofimmigrant friends, we only
enhance the experience in thiscountry.
We work for this country, right, we create in this country, and
so it's not right to demonizeand claim and blame people who
(49:12):
come in seek of better life,which is not always what they
find here.
Speaker 1 (49:18):
I grew up in an immigrant household.
My parents are immigrants and Igrew up in an immigrant
community and I find like a lotof comfort in an immigrant
community and I've been in such,you know, like you, in such
distress and thank you.
Thank you for this conversation, because this is also things
(49:45):
that are close to my heart asfar as an anti-war position, a
how do we heal from conflict?
And also how do we heal fromconflict?
And also how do we focus oncreating just systems and how do
(50:06):
we support people in this worldwho have experienced the lack
of international justice, shallwe say?
Speaker 3 (50:11):
Are you second generation or?
Speaker 1 (50:14):
First generation.
Speaker 3 (50:17):
So you are an immigrant yourself or your.
Speaker 1 (50:19):
No, my sorry.
So um uh, second then.
So my parents are, areimmigrants?
Speaker 3 (50:25):
yes, oh yeah, I I I'm sure you're grateful to your
parents for making thisdifficult decision because, uh,
usually first generation have ithard and harder.
And what would why we do it?
We do it for our children.
And going back to beginning,when I came here, just for
(50:46):
example, in ukraine, at thattime, after my husband passed
away, I was eligible for somegovernment support, right For
some money, and the money I wasgetting was enough to pay for my
daughter's daycare and herdance lessons.
So that was it.
(51:07):
And daycare, for example, justto compare, it didn't cost as
much as it costs here.
So it was like very littlemoney I was getting and at that
time I just thought like, oh myGod, I won't be able to give my
daughter future in Ukraine, sowhy don't I go in this dream
country?
Oh well, it was hard, but Igave her future.
(51:32):
You know I cannot complain.
She's in good state right nowand everything eventually worked
out.
But it's really hard and againwe do it with best interest of
our children in mind andsometimes legal system doesn't
(51:52):
really care about best interestbut you keep fighting yes thank
you so much.
Speaker 2 (51:59):
Thank, kate, thank you for giving us all of that
information, and thank you forbeing here for our listeners.
Um, we do have to wrap up,though, so I don't know if
there's like any like finalstatement you wanted to make or
not.
Speaker 3 (52:13):
We can, you know, talk to you guys and tell my
story.
Speaker 2 (52:18):
Thank you, we so much appreciate it, and it's people
like you who are willing to talkthat, I think, help make the
world a better place.
So thank you for again sharingyour story and giving people
something to hear and relate toand understand, because that's
the only way we're going to makechanges.
So thank you, and Erica, thankyou as well, for setting this up
(52:38):
, as always.
Speaker 1 (52:40):
Thank you for providing the space and thank
you to the listeners forcontinuing to support the kind
of work that Matt's been doingand the things that we're going
to do together.
So thank you, Kate, for beingpart of that and for giving
people voice by sharing yourstory.
Speaker 3 (52:58):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (53:12):
Hello everybody and thank you again for listening.
This is just a reminder that nopart of this podcast can be
duplicated or copied withoutwritten consent from either
myself or Wendy.
Thank you again.
This podcast is not intended to serve as therapeutic
advice or to replace anyprofessional treatment.
These opinions belong to us anddo not reflect any company or
agency.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Hi everybody and welcome back to another episode
of the United States of PTSD.
I wanted to welcome back DrErica Hendel, who is going to be
helping me as a co-host for therest of season three.
Thank you, erica, and welcomeback.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Oh, you're most welcome.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Thank you, and thanks to everyone for listening in
and also thank you for lining upthese great guest speakers that
we have, and you'll introduceour guest speaker today.
But before that I just wanted todo a quick PSA.
So if you live in the NewEngland area, connecticut, rhode
Island, new Hampshire,massachusetts, right now, there
appears to be there's rumblingsthat they are concerned there's
(01:07):
a possible serial killer on theloose, because they have found,
I think, seven bodies now thatare all women and have been
connected to hiking trails.
So be very careful.
They're not officially sayingit's a serial killer yet, but
there certainly is a lot ofspeculation around it.
So, as somebody who is an avidhiker, make sure you are safe,
carry, you know, carry what youneed to carry with you, whether
(01:28):
it's bear spray, pepper spray,or, if you live in a state where
you can be armed, let somebodyknow where you're going.
It's a good idea to share yourlocation and tell at least one
person where you're going andjust obviously be cautious and
aware of your surroundings.
And that is my PSA for that.
So, erica, I will defer back toyou.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
All right, it is my great pleasure to be having this
conversation with Kate today.
Kate is from Ukraine and is acitizen United States citizen
and so we share a lot ofinterests and we share similar
things that we care about.
(02:07):
We met with our common love ofart and ocean, and through this
time we've talked about manythings, and she utilizes her art
and photography to empowerpeople.
We have hopes to work together,and she's just an incredible
human being and here to talk tous about her experiences in the
(02:29):
United States, being someone animmigrant in the United States
and a naturalized citizen andher experiences a Ukrainian
living through this time andwitnessing these things while
also carrying things that shehas in the past.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
So, um, thank you for being here hi, erica, thank you
very much for inviting me andthank you for your kind words.
Yes, I'm kate and I'm fromukraine.
I've been in the united statesfor almost 25 years.
I can call it my country nowand I'm a citizen.
(03:10):
I'm a mother.
Kids are grown up, so that partis kind of behind and I find a
lot of joy and pleasure doingart.
Now.
I'm now meeting many wonderfulpeople through this adventure
and also trying to make sure orfind my way to utilize art to
(03:36):
raise awareness for people ofUkraine to the events in Ukraine
.
So that's my current realityevery day, you know, since
actually 2014,.
Around that time, I constantlywatch news, talk to my friends
(03:56):
by there and, of course, youknow, after full invasion in
2022, there is no single daywhen I would not think about
what's going on there,especially because I'm from
eastern part of Ukraine.
That's where most you knowactive battles happening and
(04:17):
sharing, so it's also everythingthat's very dear to my heart.
Of course, it has its ownimpact on my mental state and
everyday life.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Thank you for sharing that, and thank you so much for
pointing out how this didn'tstart in February of 2022 and
that this started back in 2014with the illegal annexation,
shall we say, of Crimea.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
Of Crimea.
That's correct.
It actually started evenearlier, or it would be right to
say it never stopped whatRussia did to Ukrainian people.
It goes on centuries, you know.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Thank you for that correction.
When you think about your timebefore leaving and then coming
to the United States and thisarc, what if there was something
that you would share that youfind is like this perspective of
like it's been going on sincealways right, where?
(05:20):
What would you say to kind ofthe average American citizen
that might not have thatknowledge?
Speaker 3 (05:29):
I left Ukraine for a specific reason.
I lost my husband.
He passed away very early and Iwas a young widow with a child
on my hands and at that time Ijust didn't want to stay there.
(05:52):
And, of course, the UnitedStates was always presented as a
dream country.
Everything is easy here.
It was mostly based on you knowwhat we saw on TV, right, I did
(06:12):
not think much about where I'mgoing, what's ahead.
I also met my ex-husband, sobasically brought me here.
But sorry, what was yourquestion?
Speaker 1 (06:30):
oh well, let's, let's continue on this path.
As far as your journey herebecause I think um understanding
, like when you came here and,yes, you know your experience
here is important I remember.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
And what I want American people to know that all
these lies about Russians beingpersecuted or pressured there.
It's not true.
It is not true.
I'm actually Russian-speakingUkrainian At that time.
My dad is from Siberia, so heis he's Russian right, but the
(07:08):
family spent most of the time inUkraine.
I was born in Ukraine, I wasraised in Ukraine and never,
ever, we felt any pressure fornot speaking Ukrainian or
something.
At the time, everything waslike in Russian.
Russian culture would comefirst.
(07:30):
We would have only a couple ofdays at school to learn
Ukrainian and, on top ofeverything, I was the only
single student in school who wasexcused from studying Ukrainian
just because my family lived inRussia, and somebody decided
(07:53):
that I don't need Ukrainian.
Why I was so privileged, Idon't know.
I had no issues.
I was studying, I participatedin all, but that was the reality
of that time.
And then things started changingand when I graduated from high
school, it was when the SovietUnion fell apart and that's when
(08:18):
they started introducing moreof Ukrainian culture.
And at first we were actuallyresisting, because everything
that is forcibly put on you, youkind of resist to those changes
.
But looking back and you know,I'm much older now, and
(08:40):
especially like you come to theUnited States, you speak English
, you learn English, you learnhistory.
Nobody is English.
You learn history.
Nobody is questioning is itright or wrong?
Right, it's normal.
So at some point I was startingquestioning myself and other
people like why is it a big dealfor Ukrainians to want to speak
Ukrainian, right?
Or why is it a big deal thatUkraine has its own history?
(09:05):
It was wiped.
They tried really hard to wipeit out and wipe identity and
even for people who are like 10,15 years younger than me, they
already learned and know muchmore about Ukrainian history
than we did because we were nottaught.
(09:26):
And when I talk to them rightnow, they're looking at me like
how come you don't know that?
I said no, I never knew thatthat was not what was presented
to us at that time.
But Ukraine is a beautifulcountry with rich history, which
was not wiped out completely.
(09:50):
You know they were able topreserve it, but they were
trying and still trying, reallyhard.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Kate, you brought up so many great topics, but I want
to go back first because, firstof all, I want to acknowledge
that this is difficult for youto talk about, and I also want
to acknowledge that I'm sorryabout the loss of your husband
as well.
One of the first things you hadstated which I heard from I've
heard this from other people yousaid you had this expectation
(10:18):
about what the United States wasgoing to be like, and I
remember I had a student yearsago.
She was from Africa, I don'tremember what country she was
from I think it may have beenGhana, but this was like
probably six or seven years agoand she had this impression that
the United States was going tohave a streets paved of gold and
like kind of all of these bigthings.
Cause that's what she was toldand she had said when she got
(10:40):
here, she was very astonished byhow, like, how rude people were
to her when she got here.
She was very astonished by how,like, how rude people were to
her when she got off the planeand like how it wasn't what she
expected.
So I don't know if you had likea similar experience or if
that's something that, um, youcan relate to um, it was
definitely different, uh, fromwhat I expected, and you
(11:01):
definitely feel it immediately.
Speaker 3 (11:04):
I mean when I say feel it, I mean I refer to that
time, right, so it was.
It was very different from whatI used to see.
I wasn't well traveled, I wasnot exposed to many other
cultures many and of course Iwas a product of that time that
(11:27):
culture that I would say all ofRussians, ukrainians,
post-soviet people.
We felt like we're superior,maybe like this right, and there
is a lot of joke.
They still feel like that,especially russians, you know,
(11:50):
they might have nothing, theymight have restaurants outside
right, they might not have pavedroads, but they would still be
there saying like you're stupidamericans, we will show you how
things are done.
It's laughable, but that's whatit is.
And definitely when I came outof the plane, everything was
(12:13):
different and you're animmigrant.
They don't say like welcomehome or welcome here.
I don't think things changemuch now, but you face and trust
, you face questions and it'spretty intimidating to come here
(12:35):
first time as an immigrant oreven a visitor because of that
uncertainty.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
And I can only feel for people who come here now or
decide not to come okay, theother really interesting, I
think important thing you hadmentioned was how history gets
erased right and how we don'ttalk about certain things, and
(13:02):
then, of course, theimplementation of propaganda and
how that spreads.
I was I just recently showed avideo in one of my classes that
was called how to Survive aPlague and it was about the AIDS
epidemic in the 80s, and I wasactually really shocked for two
things.
One, by how many students inthe class didn't even know there
was an AIDS epidemic in the 80s.
(13:23):
That was problem number one,which I was very shocked by.
But the other thing that Ithought was fascinating was
listening to the, because it wasa documentary and it did take
the place over the course of 10years.
How nothing really changes.
So there were parts where theywere blaming immigrants for the
AIDS virus as well.
Like there's always this blameand shift onto others, right,
(13:45):
like, and it's the narrative isalways always the same.
I think of covid and how, likeyou know, trump called it the
china virus.
Like we're always trying to umvilify people who are from
different countries erroneously.
We erroneously vilify them, butwe need to stop doing that.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
Yes, absolutely, and again, I didn't have it that
difficult, I would say, becauseI'm white, right, I don't look
any different from averageAmerican.
But I always feel for peoplethat you don't even need, they
not even ask, they immediatelyassume that they're foreigners
(14:25):
because they look different,they speak different, stuff,
like that.
So, yes, we all, we don't knowwhat we're not told, right, and
it takes some efforts to go andfind the information.
Educate yourself, which is whatwe're doing now most of the
time, right, and being beingcurious and being, like, exposed
(14:53):
to both ukrainian and russianculture and watching old news
like firsthand.
I don't need this to betranslated by american outlets,
right, I can hear it firsthandand, oh my god, like I would.
I don't watch russian tv, buthere and there you know some
(15:15):
news.
It's like all this propaganda,the way they twist the truth and
what's right now on TV and howthings are being presented it's
so similar, it's justastonishing and mind-blowing.
They are experts at the use ofheadlines, because they know
that people don't justnecessarily read an article.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
They just read a headline.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
I'm going to take a moment because when you talked
about this cultural erasure, Ithink it's important to note, as
far as that is part of this, um, genocide like definitions,
right, um, and so I appreciateso much all like the, the
(16:04):
greater context that you aresharing with us um, but I do I
would do want to mentionspecifically for our audience
that you can go look at the ungenocide prevention sites that
have the definitions of genocideand also also the clarity
(16:26):
around the you knowclassification and the
international recognition ofwhat has happened in Ukraine,
that Russia has violatedinternational law repeatedly and
also that this aspect ofdestroying the culture, erasure
(16:46):
and some of the forcibletransferals of children that
they've engaged in is resultingin that classification, and I
just appreciate how you canbring that larger context that
kind of reaffirms what has beenhappening.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
Yeah, and again, like it's not the first time,
ukraine fought hard to get theinternational society to
recognize genocide that washappening in the 1930s, because
they didn't want.
And in particular my owngrandmother.
(17:28):
She was laying in bed swollenfrom hunger.
They had nothing to eat.
They were making soup out ofjust grass.
They were basically eatinggrass just to survive and it was
famine that was artificiallymade for people, and especially
Ukraine.
Ukraine is a basket of Europe.
(17:50):
Ukraine has, you know, allthose soil, very, very fertile
soil, and they grow lots ofproduce, and you know everything
was taken from people and, andyou know everything was taken
from people and people.
Lots of people died and it wasnot acknowledged properly.
(18:11):
And what's happening now.
That's genocide.
There are almost 20,000 people,if not more, were taken away
from Ukraine to Russia, weretaken away from Ukraine to
Russia.
Some kids get adopted, which islike when they still have
(18:32):
parents alive and Ukraine isfighting hard to return those
kids.
I want to believe that theywill be able to get all of them,
but I'm also very skepticalwhen and how it will happen, and
you know it will take years anddamage is done.
(18:53):
So it's very.
Everything is veryheartbreaking.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
I agreed when you brought up children.
It makes me think of because,again, the importance of knowing
history is that it repeatsitself, which is why we really
need to be conscious of, likehow these things happen all the
children that disappeared herewhen their parents were deported
or taken away.
I mean, there's a lot ofchildren that have gone missing
it breaks my heart.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
I feel for.
I feel for every child and Ifeel for every parent.
I physically feel the pain andall those emotions they're going
through.
And what I want to emphasizeimmigrants are not criminals.
They're just people who want abetter life for themselves, for
their children, and being animmigrant in this country in my
(19:43):
opinion, it makes you morecareful, more cautious.
You're like more low obediencethan maybe average American
people, because you're afraid oflots of things.
And to put a stamp on you andclaiming that you're a criminal,
it's wrong claiming that you'rea criminal.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
It's wrong Because we're talking about this.
The legal system, right, andthe legal complexity and, like
you mentioned, right, the delay,right, the years that it can
take to try and just address theharm that has already been done
, or the separation and otheraspects of how the legal system,
(20:29):
you know, if we look at thecontext of the United States and
your experience of it, as youknow, an immigrant and as a
woman, I know that there arethings that you have to share
that I think are reallyimportant for our audience to
hear, to provide that contextand awareness of the fact that
(20:51):
in some ways, we do have a legalsystem that impacts people
differently in this countrybased off of your status, your
ways.
That marginalized identityshows up and particularly with
immigrants and people whoEnglish is not their first
language.
Speaker 3 (21:11):
Oh yes, legal system is very I don't even know how to
call it.
I had a very difficultexperience navigating a legal
system.
At the same time, I had somepositive experience and I had
(21:34):
good lawyers and I had badlawyers, and I had people who
were trying to make my life hardhere and people, complete
strangers, who were helping mealong the way.
But as a mother, as a foreigner, you immediately lose an accord
(21:56):
, especially if you have a manwho's fighting you and fighting
you not for the best children ofyour best interest of your
children.
He's just fighting you becausehe's fighting you.
He's not fighting for children.
And in this case, I had thisbelief and everybody around me
(22:21):
used to tell me oh, americancourt, they're always like on
the mother's side.
No, they are not.
They are not and it was justeye opening.
And again, we're talking about20 years ago, right?
So I want to believe thatthings changed to better.
(22:46):
But I spent.
I spent like 15 years in thissystem while I was fighting for
the custody of my son and aswell as child support Saga.
So I've seen a lot and I'veseen other women going through
(23:10):
similar issues and most of them,if you don't have
representation right away, whichmost of them don't.
If you don't know how thesystem works and of course you
don't because you're not raisedhere it's very difficult and
(23:30):
I've seen mothers losingchildren just because they're in
this disadvantaged positionlack of English, lack of funds,
lack of support and just thejudge doesn't want to hear you.
It's a lot of work to actuallylook into case and think about
(23:57):
it and usually that side who canpresent it better on the paper
wins, unfortunately.
I mean, I can talk hours aboutmy experience and I can also
talk hours about experiencebeing in a shelter for battered
(24:20):
women, which I would like to say.
Thank you for this networkbecause it is there for women
who need help.
Unfortunately, not many women,like immigrant women, know about
(24:41):
this system, but it is there,it is working.
It takes a long time but if youstick to the system, you know
they can help you.
They can help you to you know,find the roof above your head.
They can help you with food,your immediate needs, what you
(25:03):
need when you leave your abuser,and they provide you with
resources.
Again, resources is good, butfunds would be better, because
free legal help is not alwaysquality help and, from my
experience, sometimes it makesthem worse.
(25:24):
But not everyone has access toa legal representation and can
afford it and that's why a lotof women they do mistakes,
partially because, again, likethey don't know the system,
they're not from here and don'tnecessarily work here the same
way they imagine and it's beenused against them.
(25:47):
They're being I forget thisword not painted, so they don't.
They they might not have likebad will, but they're being
misinterpreted and claimed as Idon't know, bad parent or
(26:11):
abusive parent or stuff likethis.
So it is difficult.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
To add to what you were just talking about.
The population I worked withfor a very long time was
pregnant postpartum women whowere using substances or had
substance use disorders, and Ican vouch for everything you
just said in terms of the legalsystem.
The legal system is incrediblysexist.
It holds women, especially moms, to a higher standard and I
(26:40):
have seen kids taken away incircumstances where it was a
cultural issue or something thatwas culturally appropriate for
that family and there's a reasonwhy it's illegal I think it's
in 14 states in this country toremove dogs, puppies from dogs
before the age of eight weeksold because of how much damage
it does to the puppy.
But we don't have that samestandard for people, which is
(27:03):
terrible.
But I 100% agree with you.
I've seen that play out over andover and over again and you had
brought up child support andI've seen that system too, where
it's it's terrible.
I've seen moms, you know, know,take tons of time out of work
to go to, to go to court becausethe dad's not paying and then
end up getting in trouble withtheir jobs because they're
(27:23):
taking time out of work when thedad's not showing up at court.
They just keep extending it andit's.
It's just this nuts system,right that.
So I mean I can't even imaginewhat that system would be like
if you're not from the countryand don't know how to navigate
it Like that would be even worse, because it's hard to navigate
even if you know what'shappening.
Speaker 3 (27:44):
Yeah, for me it was a little bit better because by
that time I already spokeEnglish, I already could
navigate, you know, around orask for help.
But some girls they don't evenhave that, like the one I was
recently helping.
She lived with an abuser.
He was physically violent, hehad weapons, he threatened her
(28:08):
many times.
They had twins, you know girlswere like around one year old at
that time, or a year and a half, and she asked for help in a
facebook group and somehow Ifelt connected to her because it
was very, um, like similar towhat I went through and I knew
(28:34):
that if she doesn't get that,she needs help.
And I knew exactly what helpshe needs because I know step
one, two, three, four.
So I reached out to her and Isaid, like, if you're ready to
leave your abuser, I can, I canhelp you, I can tell you, you
know where to turn for help andwhat to do.
(28:56):
So same day I showed up at herdoor.
I had laptop on me, I had somemoney, I had some, you know,
paper, I had all the necessitiesbecause she was, she needed to
be ready to start the fight andI told her you what shelter
network she needs to call and itwas during COVID.
(29:18):
So they offered a hotel roomfor her at that time.
But it was something they puther away from that guy and I
also saw her going through thislegal unjust.
The guy took away the car fromher.
She needed a car for her kidsso we gave her our car.
(29:39):
The guy put her off his deed sohe sold the place.
They lived.
She got almost nothing andcourt they supported him.
They didn't want to hear.
You know that he was physicallyviolent.
She had pictures, everything,but he had respected attorney on
his side and she had publicrepresentative which were like,
(30:03):
kept changing.
She had almost three or fourattorneys.
I remember that took her caseover and over and she most like
in many things he's paying.
He's not even paying her.
He left the country but at thetime judge didn't want to listen
to her and I even went to courtwith her.
(30:25):
I wrote some legal documentsfor her because I wish that
there was somebody at the time Iwas going through for me to
help me, to help me understandwhat I need to do or even like
support me mentally, or I meanthere were people.
People come to your life forreason, reason or lifetime, and
(30:48):
I met different people fordifferent purpose during my oh
not adventure struggles.
But all this very traumatic.
And of course, it makes hugeimpact on your children because,
unfortunately, my childreninstead of seeing me happy I
(31:13):
tried, I didn't just have enoughtime for everything, but most
of the time they saw me crying,staying up at nights, writing
declaration after declaration,struggling to balance work and
their school, doctors,entertainment, this and that,
and I wanted to give them asmuch as I could but they
(31:35):
couldn't do much at that time.
And, of course, theirconsequences of course it
impacted them.
Of course they go through theirown struggles and sometime I'm
even being blamed for their Idon't know lack of something
(31:56):
that I ruined their I don't knowlack of something that I ruined
their childhood, and stuff likethis which is very painful to
hear.
And of course, I get indefensive mode trying to remind
them over and over that I was avictim of those circumstances
and I did my best to go throughand survive and provide.
(32:19):
But I still think it's happyend for me.
We survived, we went throughthat difficult time.
My divorce cost me over$130,000 because my ex did
(32:39):
everything he could just todelay, just to, I don't know,
make it difficult.
So I would.
Sometimes I would come up withsome amount of money I could pay
the attorney.
But and he's not alone I seethis practice from lots of guys
(33:01):
who are fighting their wives.
They just delay this processuntil you run out of money to
pay for your attorney and thenthey can come back and get you
because you're not representedproperly.
Come back and get you becauseyou're not represented properly.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
So, kate I, there are a couple of things that I want
to reflect back.
Number one your, like yourdirect action work that you just
described in supporting thisother human being is I am like I
stand in like greatappreciation and just I'm so
(33:44):
honored to be connected to youum, because this level of
systemic oppression and that istremendous and also highlights,
(34:10):
for example, like the Republicanadministration and Trump have
declared English the officiallanguage of the United States.
This removes funding forinterpreters in the legal system
.
So the type of direct actionwork that you're describing as
far as being present, beingthere, is something that is both
(34:36):
tremendously powerful and so,for example, if anyone listening
to this, if that's somethingthat resonates with you and you
can find a legal immigrant legalsupport organization that you
can support in that way, or thatyou can send funding that way,
that's really important.
A lot of translators have beentalking about this issue, and so
(34:58):
you being part of that is justtremendous and thank you so much
for sharing that.
Speaker 3 (35:02):
Yeah, I think the message I would like to send to
women in this situation don't beafraid to talk about problems
you're going through, don't beafraid to ask for help, because
there are people who will help.
Not everybody will, but andusually helps would come not
(35:26):
from wealthy or established, orhelp will have will come from
people who feel your pain, whowent through similar events, who
knows how it is to be on thestreet or to be worrying how to
feed your children.
There are people who will helpand there is no shame in asking
(35:52):
for that.
But of course, you need to belike, genuine, because there are
some people for example, when Iwas in a shelter, there were
women who would just call there,say, oh, my boyfriend abused me
and they would get a place tostay, food to eat and in some
(36:14):
time, in a few days, they goback to those boyfriends or
something.
They were using this andabusing basically the system
that was available.
It was in place for people tohelp people, you know, who
really need that help.
Speaker 2 (36:28):
So although I do think it's important to note
that it does take, on average, avictim seven attempts to leave
a relationship that's abusivebefore they leave.
So it may also be that thepeople are not ready for that,
because we see that a lot in alot with addictions too, because
, as we know, right now,addiction is considered a
disease by the american medicalassociation and it's about seven
(36:52):
times that it takes somebody toget sober.
So oftentimes, when they comeinto detox for four or five, six
times, people are like, oh,they're not serious about their
sobriety, they're just using abed.
But the reality is is thatthey're just not there yet.
So I do also want toacknowledge that.
But, I do think the otherimportant part of that and when
(37:13):
you talk about getting help, Ithink getting help is incredible
and I think what you did isabsolutely incredible I do think
you have to for people.
They have to be vigilant,because what I would see that
happened to working with womenin addiction is it was really
common that they would find likean older man who would come in
and like, rescue them Right, sothey would.
He would come in and give thema place to stay and, you know,
(37:34):
give them resources and helpthem get on their feet, but then
, as the that woman would startto get healthier.
She didn't need him as much, sothen she would start to, you
know, change things and thenwhat would inevitably happen is
that same person that washelping her in the beginning
would then sabotage her so thatshe went back to using so that
he needed, so that she neededhim again.
(37:54):
So that's just.
Speaker 3 (37:56):
You got to be really careful of that as well yeah,
that's, that's why, like goingback to that girl, that's why I
asked her if she's ready, ifthat's you know decision,
because I warned her it's gonnabe long road, it's gonna be a
long way and it's gonna it's notgonna be easy way, but if
(38:16):
you're ready, if you can gothrough, you can do it and she's
in much better place right now.
She she's got housing you knowtheir organization help and
she's got help for her children,because children have some
mental issues, because the guywas, uh, abusing drugs, I think
so.
So there's some stuff and she'sokay.
(38:41):
She's navigating, she's on herfeet.
But we started from simpleopening bank account for her,
checking her credit history.
She didn't know how to do it.
She didn't know what PayPal isand I needed her to have PayPal
because I organized fundraisingand stuff like this.
So I needed her to have PayPalbecause I organized fundraising
and stuff like this.
So I taught her basic things.
You know, I basically put her onfeed so she can move on and,
(39:06):
honestly, at some point I neededto let her go, because it made
such an impact on my mentalhealth, because suddenly I found
myself living her life.
My family was put behind, myhusband was put behind every
because I only lived with, withher problems constantly and I
(39:30):
still needed to work and careabout my stuff.
So some point it became toomuch on me and I said like, okay
, girl, you have a reason, justmove on and do it.
You can do it and we stayfriends.
We, you know, we call to eachother.
I check on her not every daylike it used to be, but you know
she's dear to my heart and ofcourse I wish all the best to
(39:51):
them.
Speaker 1 (39:54):
I I very much appreciate your description and
acknowledgement of what we call,like the the advocacy
individual's self-care checkplan right, that you have to
find a balance and also makesure that you are also tending
(40:16):
to the things that you need totend to in yourself and also
your own mental health.
So thank you so much for likeexemplifying that and describing
it.
I wanted to invite because Iwanted us to open our
conversation, shifting over tosome of the future projects that
you have planned for yourselfand and talking about your work
(40:43):
now in in advocacy work and how,how you feel people can
continue to support bothUkrainian Americans as well as
Ukraine and the things that youhave envisioned and planning
(41:20):
better and better, especiallyafter my kids were out of the
nest.
Speaker 3 (41:22):
I suddenly got a little bit more time for myself
and I've got a new passion whichI started to build on.
But again, like the warcontinued, full invasion
happened and I mentallystruggled a lot because, on one
hand, I wanted to create, Iwanted to share my art with
(41:45):
people, and, on the other hand,there was war and there was bad
news every day and it wasmentally very difficult for me
and it was mentally verydifficult for me.
So I tried to combine my artNot combine, that is not the
(42:05):
right word.
I tried to use my art as a wayof oh God, here is my English as
a second language.
I I don't have right words todescribe my feelings, but
basically what the artists cando, they, they speak this
(42:25):
through their art, right?
So when the world just broke Imean active faith and state, and
I was planned to go on vacationand during my vacation time I
happened to meet a girl fromUkraine and she was on the
(42:46):
island and I came to the islandwith some Ukrainian props in
order to create something to.
I just needed to go back to myroots.
I just needed to speak throughmy art, bring awareness or I
don't know.
(43:06):
I didn't really know what to do, I just wanted to do something.
So we had a photo session withher.
She modeled for me in Ukrainian, some Ukrainian like outfit,
and then I had like few sessionswith other girls.
We would just dress inUkrainian, again like clothes,
(43:31):
put in Ukrainian dress on our.
So that's where I find, that'show I can express myself.
And also lately I wasentertaining this idea.
War left many people disabledand they're lucky that they're
(43:58):
alive right.
Lots of people were killed, butalso lots of people lost their
legs or arms, and this is youngguys, young boys.
It's tragedy.
And I've been following somecenter in Western Ukraine who do
free prosthetics for thosepeople and I think about an idea
(44:25):
to visit that center at somepoint in time and maybe have a
photo session with them, maybehave a photo session with them.
It should be a very powerfulphoto session with a very
(44:46):
powerful message.
I'm still trying to figure outhow to present it, but I'd like
to bring awareness of people notonly of American people and
around the world that you knowthe war is not over.
Consequences of this war aregoing to linger for a long time.
(45:07):
You know, I don't think it'sever possible to forgive Russia
for what they did and I findmyself in a difficult position
to even communicate to Russianpeople, especially if they
support Russia.
You know, I have lots offriends and I'm always and some
are very good people, but theymentally, whenever I hear
(45:33):
Russian, it just puts me onalert immediately.
I immediately want to checktheir position.
Do they support Ukraine or not?
Trying to figure out how I cancommunicate with them.
So anyway, back to my projects.
Yes, I want to create somethingpowerful for people to keep
(45:57):
supporting Ukraine.
Ukraine needs help, ukraineneeds a lot of help, a lot of
support, and I feel so.
I don't know if I should beashamed for current government
for turning their backs onUkraine, but I am ashamed, I am
devastated.
(46:18):
There's all sorts of emotions.
It's hard to believe that theyare going to give up on Ukraine
and just to watch how it's been,you know, wiped once again by
Russia.
It's been, you know, wiped onceagain by Russia.
It's so unjust, it's so I meanit makes sense from Russian
(46:44):
point.
But you know, ukrainian peopledo not deserve it To blame
Zelensky for starting the war,which he did not.
It's like come on like whatchoir do you preach to?
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (47:01):
So yeah, as an artist , like artists speak or talk
through their art, and that'swhere I'm kind of am at this
point and thank you for doingthat, because art is and has
always been powerful and it hasbeen a way to like fight against
(47:23):
the system too.
So thank you for doing that.
As somebody who's not creativeat all in terms of like that
type of art, I really appreciateit.
I wish I could be, but I'm not,so thank you for doing that.
And just in the last couple ofminutes we have what what's?
If you could, if trying tothink how to phrase this is
(47:47):
there something that you wouldwant to talk to the listeners
listeners about to help elicitempathy for people who are
coming into the country or whoare struggling with the
immigration process?
Speaker 3 (48:04):
Yes, of course, and as I already said, those people
are not criminals.
Those people enhance thiscountry.
They bring every culture hassomething good to learn from,
right, and we are all immigrantshere.
(48:24):
It's just a matter of time whenour ancestors came here.
So I guess Native Americans arethe only people who can say,
really say something, and therest came here different period,
different period of time, andso you cannot say like you're an
american and somebody is not.
But that's unfortunate reality.
(48:46):
And being an american, havinglike lots of american I mean
immigrant, uh, having lots ofimmigrant friends, we only
enhance the experience in thiscountry.
We work for this country, right, we create in this country, and
so it's not right to demonizeand claim and blame people who
(49:12):
come in seek of better life,which is not always what they
find here.
Speaker 1 (49:18):
I grew up in an immigrant household.
My parents are immigrants and Igrew up in an immigrant
community and I find like a lotof comfort in an immigrant
community and I've been in such,you know, like you, in such
distress and thank you.
Thank you for this conversation, because this is also things
(49:45):
that are close to my heart asfar as an anti-war position, a
how do we heal from conflict?
And also how do we heal fromconflict?
And also how do we focus oncreating just systems and how do
(50:06):
we support people in this worldwho have experienced the lack
of international justice, shallwe say?
Speaker 3 (50:11):
Are you second generation or?
Speaker 1 (50:14):
First generation.
Speaker 3 (50:17):
So you are an immigrant yourself or your.
Speaker 1 (50:19):
No, my sorry.
So um uh, second then.
So my parents are, areimmigrants?
Speaker 3 (50:25):
yes, oh yeah, I I I'm sure you're grateful to your
parents for making thisdifficult decision because, uh,
usually first generation have ithard and harder.
And what would why we do it?
We do it for our children.
And going back to beginning,when I came here, just for
(50:46):
example, in ukraine, at thattime, after my husband passed
away, I was eligible for somegovernment support, right For
some money, and the money I wasgetting was enough to pay for my
daughter's daycare and herdance lessons.
So that was it.
(51:07):
And daycare, for example, justto compare, it didn't cost as
much as it costs here.
So it was like very littlemoney I was getting and at that
time I just thought like, oh myGod, I won't be able to give my
daughter future in Ukraine, sowhy don't I go in this dream
country?
Oh well, it was hard, but Igave her future.
(51:32):
You know I cannot complain.
She's in good state right nowand everything eventually worked
out.
But it's really hard and againwe do it with best interest of
our children in mind andsometimes legal system doesn't
(51:52):
really care about best interestbut you keep fighting yes thank
you so much.
Speaker 2 (51:59):
Thank, kate, thank you for giving us all of that
information, and thank you forbeing here for our listeners.
Um, we do have to wrap up,though, so I don't know if
there's like any like finalstatement you wanted to make or
not.
Speaker 3 (52:13):
We can, you know, talk to you guys and tell my
story.
Speaker 2 (52:18):
Thank you, we so much appreciate it, and it's people
like you who are willing to talkthat, I think, help make the
world a better place.
So thank you for again sharingyour story and giving people
something to hear and relate toand understand, because that's
the only way we're going to makechanges.
So thank you, and Erica, thankyou as well, for setting this up
(52:38):
, as always.
Speaker 1 (52:40):
Thank you for providing the space and thank
you to the listeners forcontinuing to support the kind
of work that Matt's been doingand the things that we're going
to do together.
So thank you, Kate, for beingpart of that and for giving
people voice by sharing yourstory.
Speaker 3 (52:58):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (53:12):
Hello everybody and thank you again for listening.
This is just a reminder that nopart of this podcast can be
duplicated or copied withoutwritten consent from either
myself or Wendy.
Thank you again.
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