May 18, 2025 • 59 mins
Immigration rights are under severe threat as communities across America face increasing persecution and detention without due process, with Kim DeLeon sharing her family's journey through the US immigration system and the fears they still face despite her husband's citizenship. We discuss how the immigration process is far more complex, expensive, and uncertain than most people realize, with many families spending thousands of dollars and years navigating bureaucratic hurdles.
• Legal immigration requires navigating thousands of dollars in fees, complex paperwork, and multi-year waiting periods
• Even with proper documentation, immigrants face constant fear of being detained by ICE
• Privatized detention centers represent corporatized human rights violations with inadequate conditions
• ICE raids are occurring in everyday places like Dollar General stores and potentially targeting schools
• Border militarization parallels historical situations like the Berlin Wall, with similar human costs
• Immigrants contribute enormously to the US economy and social fabric while being denied basic rights
• Local community organization and response has been crucial in helping detained immigrants access due process
• Everyone can take action by joining local politics, supporting organizations like the ACLU and Indivisible
• Recording ICE interactions can provide crucial evidence for legal cases
• Knowing your rights is essential – the ACLU provides free resources on immigrant rights
We strongly encourage listeners to get involved by checking what's happening in their state around immigrant rights and building relationships with frontline organizations that are making a difference in securing due process for unjustly detained individuals.
Homepage | Indivisible
https://open.spotify.com/show/3KNdniw6YDpgDuwrhcpSXw
Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!):
https://uppbeat.io/t/hartzmann/no-time-to-die
License code: S4CEQWLNQXVZUMU4
Artwork and logo design by Misty Rae.
Special thanks to Joanna Roux for editing help.
Special thanks to the listeners and all the wonderful people who helped listen to and provide feedback on the episode's prerelease.
Please feel free to email Matt topics or suggestions, questions or feedback.
Matt@unitedstatesofPTSD.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
This podcast is not intended to serve as therapeutic
advice or to replace anyprofessional treatment.
These opinions belong to us anddo not reflect any company or
agency.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Hello everybody and welcome back to another episode
of the United States of PTSD,and I'm welcoming back Erica and
another great guest speaker.
So, Erica, I'm turning it overto you.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Hi, thank you.
Thank you everyone for tuningin and hope you're doing well
and we're going to start outjust quickly Today's
conversation.
We are going to be talkingabout immigration again and I'm
just going to put this out therethat this is one of the
frontline issues that arehappening right now that we are
having to navigate in ourcommunities across the country.
(00:59):
We have kind of thesecommunities that have been
targeted specifically asscapegoats for so many things,
and that includes transgender,expansive individuals as well as
immigrant community, and alsopro-Palestinian protests or
anti-genocide humanitarianprotesters, and so also when
(01:22):
these three things areintersecting, of course, we have
even more vulnerability.
So if you want to get involved,what I recommend strongly is to
take a look at what's happeningin your state around immigrant
rights and you can buildrelationships with those,
because usually the localfrontline responses are what
really makes a difference ingetting people who have been
(01:45):
unjustly detained and denied dueprocess, that due process.
So the other place that you cango for great information, the
podcast.
It Could Happen here.
They have just a tremendousamount, both historically, of
the history of immigrant, theviolation of immigration rights
(02:05):
or immigrant rights in thiscountry.
Historically speaking, becauseit didn't just start with the
current administration.
It is my pleasure to introduceKim DeLeon pronounce she her.
We've known each other for manyyears and she has been part of
the community network that Ihave.
That bolsters in my energy andthe things that we have in
(02:27):
common passions for ecological,animal and human rights and I
will also pass it off to you totalk about some of the things
that you care about and startingintroducing the story of your
family and why you're here tohave this conversation today.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
Hi, thank you so much for having me on the podcast.
I am very lucky to have knownErica for a long time, and back
then I was getting ready tostart a journey on a trip to
Belize, where I ended up livingthere for two years.
I met my current husband and westarted our life together there
.
After my two years there, wedecided to move to the United
(03:06):
States to have children andstart a life here in the United
States.
We followed all of the properimmigration procedures, did the
paperwork filed everythingappropriately, and we were lucky
enough to be granted a marriagevisa, permanent residence and
then, finally, us citizenshipfor my husband.
(03:28):
We now have a beautiful familythat I take care of here in
Delaware.
I also do all kinds of otherfun things to take care of
humans and non-humans alike.
I'm a preschool teacher, anenvironmental consultant and a
farm worker, and I spend my freetime doing activism work with
organizations such as the ACLUand Indivisible.
(03:50):
I'm also getting involved inlocal politics by participating
in the representative districtcommittee for my area.
So thanks for having me on.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Thank you for being here, kim.
Could you just explain whatIndivisible is for the listeners
, because I'm not sure theywould know what that is.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
Sure, no problem.
So Indivisible is a politicalactivation group and they focus
primarily on democratic issues.
They really are big advocatesfor things like human rights,
things like getting peopleinvolved in voting, protesting
and other activities like that.
They also tend to break downinto smaller units, for lack of
(04:30):
a better word, so I'm in my ownlittle local unit.
If you go to indivisibleorg, Ithink you can find your local
chapter of Indivisible and getinvolved there.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
I love hearing about how you're on a committee,
because this is one of thosethings like it's possible if we
get involved in local and thisis.
Is this at the state level?
Speaker 3 (04:53):
Yes, so it's the.
The district that I'm in is forour state representative, and
the state representative, andthe state representative then
goes to the state level andadvocates for our particular
community.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
I did find the link so I will put it in the notes
for the show for indivisibleorg.
I think it breaks it down basedon state Perfect.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
Well, one of the things that I wanted to ask you,
because there's it's, it's beenan interesting path that we've
lived on collectively aroundimmigration and it's kind of
like always something that'salways changing.
And and some people could saythat our first, most recent
(05:41):
round of large shifts ofimmigration so my parents came
here in the 70s there was muchmore how should I say openness
of people coming to the UnitedStates that contributed to
building like industries, so,for example, all of the things
that we can thank immigrants for.
(06:03):
Workers' rights, right, themajority of our workers' rights
happened through immigrant labormovement, through farm workers
and we'll probably talk a littlebit more about that and also
through, like my parents wereinvolved in the computer
industry.
So huge contributions there,contributions there, and then I
(06:26):
would say from my livingexperience that really started
to shift around 9-11, where westarted to really see things
change drastically about howimmigration was treated.
And then we had this window oftime over the Biden
administration where we had moreopenness again for a period of
time where we started to seemore people be able to get their
(06:47):
citizenship.
I remember being in Florida andmy Lyft driver had just gotten
his citizenship and when heshared it with me.
I actually started cryingbecause I had had friends who
were married to, for example,Prince from Iran, who were not
(07:09):
able, had complications aboutvisas and things for a very long
time under the previous roundof the Trump administration,
that were potentially needing tomove in order to be able to
continue working for thecompanies that you know had
facilitated their immigrationbecause of the, their value.
(07:32):
So I cried and so was that.
Was that the time period alsofor for you and your family,
where that, where thatcitizenship was able to be
obtained?
Speaker 3 (07:42):
Yeah, so my husband was able to get a citizen.
That citizenship was able to beobtained.
Yeah, so my husband was able toget a citizenship at the end of
2016.
So we had obviously beenworking on the documents for
several years.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
We had moved to the.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
United States in 2012 .
So it was about a four-yearprocess all in all, and we were
lucky because it was a marriagevisa situation, which is much
faster than other types ofcitizenship applications.
It can take many, many moreyears if it's not through a
marriage visa situation.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
Kim, if you could talk a little bit about because
I not because I know thelisteners.
Obviously the people listeningto the show probably are not
going to be opposed to the stuffthat you're talking about
because you know who we are, butI would imagine if somebody
were and they were listening toit, they would say, well, look
how easy that was.
She did it the right way and itwas just super easy.
(08:32):
But that's not the reality ofit for most people, right?
So can you talk about the maybethe nuanced difficulty of what
that's like to get citizenship?
Speaker 3 (08:46):
Yes, of course.
So I think it's reallyinteresting.
Like you said, a lot of peopleseem to think it's just, you
know, a click of a button orfill out one paper and you're
all set.
And you know, maybe back in theday when we had the Ellis
Island immigration and you couldjust go to Ellis Island and
fill out a paper or get a stampor whatever the situation was,
(09:07):
it was very quick and it wasvery easy.
And that is not the reality thatI've experienced in this
country this day and age.
It is a thousands of dollarprocess with all of the
paperwork.
It is multi-year, it issignificantly complicated
paperwork that requires a prettyhigh level of education, a high
(09:29):
level of competency in beingable to understand all the legal
jargon that's in there.
So many people are going tofind it inaccessible and if they
can't afford a lawyer thatspecializes in immigration,
they're going to really have ahard time getting through all of
the legal steps.
Not to mention, there is noguarantee, when you file those
(09:50):
papers and you pay the money,that you are going to be granted
the status that you're applyingfor, whether it's permanent
residence or citizenship, andI've had that.
I've watched that experienceagain and again and again with
people I know, whether it'sfriends or extended family, and
(10:10):
it could be something as simpleas trying to apply for a
visitor's visa to the UnitedStates and use their skills,
their craft, their educationthat they received in other
countries to be able toestablish a life here.
And it's rejected and thatmoney is gone, that time and
energy is gone, and it is sodevastating to experience that,
(10:36):
to think that I'm doingeverything right and it's still
not working and I've lost allthat time and all of that money
for what.
It's really devastatingsometimes.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
So it's cost prohibitive for most people.
It's incredibly confusing, andI think something that a lot of
people don't realize too is thatwhile people are here, they're
still paying taxes, correct?
Speaker 3 (10:59):
Oh, absolutely, so you're paying into the system,
you're paying to be here, you'repaying for representation, and
you could be denied afterspending thousands and thousands
and thousands of dollars to beable to get my husband to come
(11:27):
into this country legally tostep foot on the soil, he was
denied two visitor's visas, andI don't know for sure, but my
suspicion is that it was becausehe was a young, strong, capable
gentleman who would be able tofind a job in many of the
industries that hire people withundocumented status so whether
(11:48):
it's construction, farming,things like that and they
thought that he would justoverstay his visitor's visa.
So they denied him a visitor'svisa at all.
So we tried that route twiceand it didn't work.
Then we ended up gettingmarried in Belize, having all of
the documentation to prove thatit was a real marriage.
We had to do interviews, whichthey asked extremely personal
(12:10):
questions.
I won't get into it, but let metell you I was not prepared.
I was expecting things aboutwhat color toothbrush does he
use, or you know what did he getyou for Valentine's Day, and it
was way more embarrassing.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Invasive.
Speaker 3 (12:28):
Invasive yes, invasive and embarrassing than
that.
They wanted to verify that itwas a real relationship,
apparently, and that's thestrategy that they used.
So it was very uncomfortable,but we did obviously get the
marriage visa.
It was very uncomfortable, butwe did obviously get the
marriage visa, and when youapply for the marriage visa, you
fill out the documents, yousend in the money and there is
(12:52):
no indication of how long it'sgoing to take.
It could take weeks, it couldtake months, it could take years
.
They give you no information,but what you have to prove is
that you have a job waiting foryou in the United States, you
have housing waiting for you inthe United States, you have
housing waiting for you in theUnited States, you have some
sort of support as far as likebeing able to have income, and I
(13:15):
don't know very many people whohave that already established
in the United States justwaiting there for them for
whenever the visa is granted.
Now, thankfully, in myparticular situation, I had a
relative who had a farm and shehad some housing space that we
were able to use, and so we didhave jobs lined up and we could
come whenever the visa wasgranted, whether it was six
(13:36):
months after we applied, a yearafter we applied, two weeks
after we applied.
So I was really, reallyfortunate to have all of the
things that they require, but Ican't imagine there's a lot of
people who had that set upalready, waiting for them to
just fingers crossed and gettheir visa accepted.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
When you because I know you said you lived in
Belize for two years did youhave to become a citizen of
Belize as well?
Speaker 3 (14:03):
No, I never got my Belizean citizenship.
I went there on a work visa, soI worked in a school that was
an English immersion school, andthat's how I was able to stay
there for the two years.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
I was just curious if there was like a comparison,
like what it would be like there.
Speaker 3 (14:19):
So I had to fill out some of the papers.
The company that I worked forhad to fill out the majority of
the papers, but it wassignificantly faster.
I have looked into becoming aBelizean citizen and you know
it's complicated paperwork.
It's expensive, but nothinglike here in the United States.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
I remember during the first regime of the Trump years
, I had looked at going toCanada and I couldn't believe
how expensive it was.
It was, I think they had said Imean there were ways around it.
They said if I had, if I hadbeen offered a job which I'm
sure I could have if I reallytried to but outside of that,
they wanted me to have a hundredthousand dollars in the bank.
And when I was talking to theperson on the phone he made it
(14:59):
sound like everybody had ahundred thousand dollars in the
bank and I was like, really doyou?
Because, like you know, it'sreally really expensive.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
It is.
My parents, again during theTrump years and the first go
around looked into moving to NewZealand and I think they
required like a million dollarsin the bank if you were over a
certain age because you wouldn'tbe working necessarily a
full-time job and contributingto the economy.
So you had to prove that youwere an asset to the country
(15:30):
with your own supplies to beable to afford it.
So cost is a huge issue when itcomes to immigration.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
That's actually a good point, because it was.
The reason why it was soexpensive was because of age,
because I think at the time Iwas I don't remember how old I
was at the time 43, 42,somewhere around there, and
they're like, yeah, you're tooold and I was like what.
Speaker 3 (15:51):
Yeah, I recently looked into going to Canada.
I have relatives over there andit was if you were over 45,
basically forget it.
And I just thought, oh my gosh,how is this possible?
I have so many years ahead ofme and yet it's considered too
old?
Speaker 2 (16:08):
But now that I found out how they treat their
indigenous people.
Plus, there's a program upthere called the MAID program,
which is an assisted suicideprogram that they actually try
to.
If you're costing the countrytoo much money, they actually
try to encourage you to commitsuicide and that's for mental
health.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
Are you serious?
Speaker 2 (16:23):
I actually had somebody from Canada on the show
talking about it and he saidthat they basically will send
you information to your housesaying we think you should kill
yourself Cause, like none ofthis stuff has been working.
So once I found out about thatI was like no, Canada, Thanks.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
No, my gosh.
Well, I think so, somethingthat I wanted to kind of mention
here, since we just talkedabout this process through the
marriage visa and work visa,that and so, for example, the
current administration hasbasically revoked asylum status
(17:12):
for a large cohort of people,not only that had status
recently, over the last fouryears as far as places like
Haiti, but also are threateningthe status of Haiti and Ukraine,
but are also threatening status.
(17:33):
For example, we have citizensfrom Bhutan and other areas that
have been here for a long timewith protective status that are
now you know, no one understandsPeople who are naturalized
citizens as well as are alsonervous about that happening.
So, matt, if you're willing toshare some of your experience as
far as the people that you knowaround asylum, I only have one
(17:58):
experience and that was well.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
I guess I have two technically.
One of them was kind ofperipherally so I had.
This was during the COVID years.
I sponsored somebody fromHonduras.
He had come here seeking asylumbecause in Honduras, I guess
they're not very LGBT friendlyand he was tortured many times.
He actually had like whip markson his back and all sorts of
stuff he had scarring, and hecame here legally.
(18:24):
He did it the like I said, thelegal way.
He was seeking asylum and he wastaken to one of the detention
centers in Texas and he reportedthat he was raped by the guards
down there repeatedly and youknow.
So it was, I guess, worse forhim coming here on some level
that he ended up.
Luckily he's doing really well.
He's in a different state now.
(18:45):
He also had a friend that camefrom Cuba and that friend was
being sponsored by a friend ofmine.
He also, I think, is doingreally well, but the stories
they told were horrific andscary as to why they left in the
first place and then thetreatment that they got while
they were here.
Strangely, one of them is aTrump supporter, which kind of
(19:06):
is a little bit baffling to me.
But yeah, that's I mean.
So that's the limitedexperience I have.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
Well, I think it emphasizes the fact that when we
on talking about how detentionhas been privatized Same thing
with our carceral system, and sowe have private companies who
(19:38):
are made we have corporatizedhuman rights violations.
Fundamentally, that is where weare now.
We have corporatized theviolation of human rights, where
immigrants of varying statusesso not just undocumented, but
(19:59):
also immigrants that have validstatuses are being denied due
process and put into detentioncenters that are private
companies that currently havehuman rights violation records,
right of not being able toprovide and their over capacity,
(20:21):
don't have enough water andfood, and that, additionally,
there are some detention centersFor example, the Biden
administration started theprocess of open air detentions
in areas where people are havingheat exposure and environmental
exposure.
So this is when we talk aboutthis being a deadly situation
(20:44):
and how immigrants with validstatus are also at risk for
being scooped up in this process.
This is, this is very seriousand so, um, can, can you talk a
little bit?
Are you willing to talk alittle bit about how you and
your family have been likepreparing around this and how,
how this has been impacting bothyou and your family?
(21:05):
Sure?
Speaker 3 (21:07):
So I participated in an ACLU Know your Rights for
Immigrants workshop and I had myhusband participate as well,
and the thing that struck me themost out of all the things they
said was if you are herelegally, you need to make
photocopies of your paperworkand keep it with you at all
(21:28):
times so that at the drop of ahat you can provide that
documentation to anyone whotries to come and scoop you up.
So one morning I woke up early,before my kids got up and
before my husband got up, and Ihad to make photocopies of his
citizenship papers.
I had to make one to keep inthe truck, one to keep in the
(21:48):
van, one for him to keep in hiswallet, and I did have him send
one to his employer.
They never requested it, but Iwanted them to be able to have
it on file just in case therewas ever an issue.
My husband does landscaping andhe works in public areas
frequently.
One of the main organizationsthat he works for is for a
(22:09):
school district, so he's on theside of a road or on the
playground or on these sportsfields mowing and it would be so
easy for ICE to come and scoophim up, and particularly because
he, his business, is based inPennsylvania, which is even more
dangerous than Delaware.
Thankfully, delaware is so farresisting a lot of what's
(22:33):
happening, that we're definitelyhaving issues, but Pennsylvania
even more so with the thestories of ICE agents coming in
scooping up people.
Recently there was a big ICEraid at a Dollar General about a
half an hour away from me andit was terrifying.
It was like a Saturday morningPeople were out shopping and
(22:55):
they just came to the parkinglot and started scooping up
people.
So that keeps me up at night thethought of him just not coming
home one day because he was weedwhacking on the side of the
road and somebody saw that hewas the wrong color and decided
that he was a danger to oursociety.
(23:16):
It's really been terrifying tothe point where we're actually
talking about moving to Belizeto try and return back to family
.
It just feels like things aregetting so stressful right now,
so tenuous, and it doesn't feellike there are enough people
standing up and championing forpeople like me and people like
(23:39):
my family up and championing forpeople like me and people like
my family.
I recently had a situationwhere my husband was doing
something on Facebookmarketplace, trying to sell a
lawnmower or something and hewas having a conversation with
somebody who was interested inbuying it and all of a sudden,
(24:13):
out of nowhere, this person justsaid this really vile racial
slur to him and just said thisreally vile, racial.
A long and sad history in ourcountry, but in the 13 years
that we've lived here, nothinglike that has ever happened
before.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
And the fact that it's happening right now I don't
think is a coincidence.
First of all, I'm sorry thatyou have to experience that it's
just everything about it isterrible.
Do you think this is just likea personal opinion?
Obviously.
Do you think that there'sbecause I think about like Gaza,
(24:49):
right, and I think about likePalestine and the genocide
that's happening there, andthere actually is a lot of
people who are against it, butit's really the government that
doesn't care.
So do you think it's more thepeople or do you think it's more
the people or do you think it'smore the government?
Speaker 3 (25:03):
Well, I mean, I definitely think it's the
government.
However, I will say that I'vehad a lot of conversations with
people that I know in mycommunity, with people I
consider friends, and a lot ofthem feel like they don't have
the bandwidth to stand up andsay something they don't agree
with what is happening at all.
They feel like it's tragic,it's a shame, but they're not
(25:25):
willing to put their necks outand speak up and stand up and
say we won't take this and I getit.
I mean, I really do.
Everybody right now just isdoing their best to keep their
head above water, whether it'staking care of their families,
trying to keep their familiessafe, trying to manage full-time
jobs, multiple jobs at a time,paying the bills, which is no
(25:48):
small feat these days.
So I think a lot of theproblems is with the government
and the structures that we havein place in the government, but
I think that a lot of peoplealso feel like this is a real
shame, wish I could do somethingabout it, and they do a lot of
hand-wringing, but they're notwilling to stand up and speak
(26:09):
out.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
That's by design too, because there are so many
egregious and atrocious thingshappening right now, human
violations all over the placeand again, I'm not making
excuses for for this, becauseeverybody does need to be doing
their part.
So many people are feelingburnt out because they're
fighting from every angle.
I hear it a lot from mystudents who are trying to be
(26:30):
somewhat active politically andthey're just, they get
frustrated because there's somany things happening all over
the place that we just we onlyhave so much bandwidth.
Like you said, if everybodycould kind of come together, I
think, because there's reallyone issue that permeates through
every issue we talk about, andif we could get everybody united
on that front, I think we'd bea stronger force, but people
(26:53):
would just fried.
Speaker 3 (26:56):
Right?
Oh, I agree with thatwholeheartedly.
I've seen that in my communityas well.
It's really hard when you feellike you're under attack every
single day.
What's the new issue, what'sthe new problem?
Pick your lane, pick your speedand do something so you don't
(27:18):
have to be active on every topic, but find something you're
passionate about and startmaking a difference in that one
area.
So for me right now, it'simmigrants' rights.
That doesn't mean I don't careabout rights of other groups of
people.
I'm very passionate about humanrights in general.
However, I have the bandwidthto handle the immigrants rights
(27:41):
situation right now, and sothat's what I'm putting my
energy and turning my rage intoaction, if you will, so that I
feel like I can do something.
I feel like I can make adifference and not feel helpless
and hopeless and depressed.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
You are a great example and I wish everybody
could learn from this, kim.
So, for the listeners that areout there, kim is doing this
really well, taking all of thepassion and the anger and
channeling it into somethingincredibly productive and useful
, and it's something that you'repassionate about and it's
something that you're wellversed in.
And if everybody could, likeyou said, find their lane and
(28:17):
pick a topic and say, okay, thisis a topic I'm passionate about
, like Erica with veterinariancare, I mean, there are things
that we just we're really goodat it and that's where we can be
putting our effort.
I a hundred percent agree withthat, kim, and thank you for
sharing that.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
No problem.
One thing that I've been doingis I've been kind of scared.
So I live in, I live in thestate of Arizona, which you know
Arizona, texas, louisiana,florida, probably missing a
couple.
These are some of the what Iwould call like frontline states
.
In the aspect of detention,right, we're actually seeing
(28:56):
militarization of the borders.
So around the borderlands inArizona we have a couple and I'm
going to refer to the genocidein Gaza because this is actually
linked In the borderlands area.
The actual militarization of theborder and the monitoring is
(29:17):
technology from Israel and thethings that are utilized for
monitoring or there's anotherword for it that I would prefer
to use in a situation that's notcoming to mind basically like
mechanisms of like what amilitary police state in an
occupation does as far asmonitoring and surveilling the
(29:38):
populace.
That is literally now beingdeployed at the borders.
Right, and I'm half German, soonce upon a time there was a
wall, berlin.
So that is like seeing thosewalls go up, seeing the walls go
up in Palestine, seeing thewalls go up here, seeing the
(30:03):
walls go up in Palestine, seeingthe walls go up here and how it
interferes with movement ofspecies, right, migratory
species that need to go acrossthe border.
It interferes with some of thethings that they used.
As far as water, it's a water,it's an essential resource,
utilizing water.
As far as the process ofbuilding a wall, these things.
As far as the increased policingof the populace in Arizona,
(30:24):
we're feeling it here, right,and it's very important if you
are in a state to understandthat this is why, when we have
people who are being scooped up,their due process is being
violated.
Then they're also flown to thestates like Arizona, louisiana
(30:44):
and Texas into detention,because the ways that immigrants
are handled in those states aredifferent.
As far as trying to increasethe rapidity of deporting people
and actually you can't evennecessarily use that, you can't
use the term deported for theway that they're going about
(31:05):
some of these things, especiallyas they're dealing with
citizens as well but one of thethings that's also happening
with these detentions is that itreduces accesses of people to
their lawyers.
All of these things areconnected and they're also, you
(31:26):
know, it's been a progressiveprocess.
So if you're not familiar withthis issue especially because
this is where our rights willalso be eroded over time,
especially with the loss ofpotential loss of due process
that's something that we reallyneed to be continuing to talk
about.
So I do recommend, even if it'snot the issue that you want to
(31:46):
focus on, at least be informedabout it, because it is a place
where the Overton window isshifting and the policing window
is also shifting onto UScitizens as well.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
To add to that, erica , about losing rights, I just
got a text today from the ADCabout a bill that's going up HR
867, that will criminalizeboycotts against Israel.
That seeks up to 20 years inprison and a million dollars in
fine and it will create ablacklist against companies and
(32:21):
organizations that arecriticizing or boycotting Israel
.
I never thought I would live ina country where it's against
the law and you're beingcriminalized to speak out
against a country that'scommitting genocide.
It's just wild.
So I will put this in the notestoo as well.
I've already contacted my, mycongressman and senator but
(32:41):
they're all owned by APEC anywaytelling them to not to oppose
the bill.
But I'll put it in the notes.
So that's HR 867.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
That immigrants, especially like like immigrants
that are here on visas on, havebeen speaking out about these
things.
There's a reason whydiscussions around human rights
and protests around human rightsusually include people who are
(33:17):
from around the world.
People who are from around theworld, and that is because these
are people who also haveorganized around human rights
under conditions that we havehad the privilege to ignore as a
citizenry.
And yeah, thanks for sharingthat, matt, and I'm actually I'm
(33:40):
finding myself at a loss forwords.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
I can.
I'll forward it to you if youwant, because you should contact
your person as well, or peopleI should say.
Sorry, kim, we had to go off onthat for a second.
Speaker 3 (33:52):
I apologize, no worries, that's no problem.
I think it's important to talkabout.
Yeah, I think it's important totalk about.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
Yeah, what Kim?
You had talked about people whoare carrying their paperwork
with them, like making sure thatthey have copies.
Is that because we all knowthat ICE is corrupt and they
don't care about?
Does the paperwork really stopthem?
Speaker 3 (34:15):
So that's a great question.
One of the things they coveredin that ACLU Know your Rights
for Immigrants workshop was thatthe paperwork that ICE often
presents is not necessarily whatis legally required.
So they might take a paper thatlooks sort of legal-like but it
might be missing key informationlike the name of the person
(34:35):
they're supposed to be taking,the warrant for the arrest or
the scooping up of the person.
It could be missing the properlocation or you know just these
details where if they just flasha piece of paper at you, it
looks like that's official andthey've got everything they need
.
So it's really important thatpeople who might be dealing with
(35:00):
this take a real close look atthe paperwork and know what
they're looking for, becomefamiliar with those things that
are legally required before theyare lawfully allowed to have
any sort of contact with ICE orbe taken by ICE contact with ICE
(35:21):
or be taken by ICE, because Icould tell me if I'm wrong about
this, because I don't have anyexperience with this and I've
never talked to somebody thathas been detained by ICE or has
dealt with ICE.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
But I would imagine, just given what they do, if I
was walking down the street andI was by myself and I was not
native to this country and I hadmy documents on me and ICE came
rolling up and I showed themthe paperwork, what's to stop
them from actually just rippingthe paperwork out of my hand,
arresting me anyway and thenjust saying, like you know, I
didn't have it?
Speaker 3 (35:53):
Yeah, there's nothing to stop you.
One of the things that the ACLUrecommends is to videotape or
photograph anything andeverything.
Will ICE allow you to hold yourphone and videotape it?
No, probably not.
But if you happen to besomebody who witnesses this
happening for instance, the raidthat I told you that happened
(36:13):
about a half an hour from whereI live in Pennsylvania there
were people who were witnessingthis and recording the entire
incident and you can submit thatwhat's the word I'm looking for
material over to organizationslike the ACLU and they can use
that to try and have legal proofthat something was done or not
(36:38):
done as it was supposed to be.
So, even if it's not directlyimpacting you, if you just
happen to be walking down thestreet and see something, it's
important that you stop and youtake the time to make sure that
it's recorded.
It's documented because thatcould be used later on to help
that person in court.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
So what I think the really important thing for the
listeners to hear is that reallyit's our job especially if we
are about protecting humanrights to be loud If we see
stuff like that happening and totake on the role of you know,
like a protector, and say, okay,we're going to, we're going to
(37:19):
tape record this, we're going torecord it.
We say, okay, we're gonna,we're gonna tape record this,
we're gonna record it, we'regonna, we're gonna do something
with it, to be the voice for thepeople who don't have the voice
.
Speaker 1 (37:25):
Basically, Absolutely , that's well said.
So I am.
So I am currently scanning asignal chat that I am in as of
community organizers that wereactually talking about a local
response to a and I'll send yousome links to some articles.
There was a Guatemalan womanwho is well, was pregnant and
(37:48):
gave birth and was for a periodof time separated from her baby
while she was put into detention.
She was put into detention andher baby was in the hospital
(38:11):
without clear understanding ofwhat was going to happen to the
child when she and her childwere going to.
Thankfully, they have beenreunited and part of that
process has been organized bylocal response just emphasizes
the fact that people within yourcommunity get, if you care
about this issue, absolutely getconnected to local community,
(38:31):
because this is making a hugedifference, because when people
are being disappeared likeliterally, we have people who
are being disappeared, havepeople who are being disappeared
.
This is particularly impacting.
You know, venezuelan asylumseekers who have been here for
several years, that families whohave also come here through
(38:52):
legal means are beingdisappeared and being denied due
process and are being sent tofacilities internationally and
also sometimes being sent tocountries that have nothing to
do.
They're third-party countriesright.
So we have Chinese immigrantswho have been sent to, like
Panama.
(39:12):
There are plenty of newsarticles about these things,
things and it's just thisprocess of having these
conversations making sure thatyou're prepared to record
understanding in your state ifthere are any restrictions on
how close you can be to policeofficers specifically, I don't
think that there's anythingabout ICE specifically knowing
(39:37):
that they might not be honestwith you.
If you see someone beingdetained and and see if you can
get their name, that's even veryjust calling out and being like
what is your name right, so youcan try and get that
information to people who canhelp that person.
Um, all of these things areimportant and it's it's wild
(39:58):
that these are the conversationsthat we are having, but it is
the way that we need to beprepared.
Speaker 3 (40:05):
Yeah, one thing I didn't mention earlier when I
was talking about my own familystory is that my children are in
a Spanish immersion school inelementary school and one of my
biggest fears is that ICE willcome in and do a raid or demand
that the kids are taken out ofthe school Not my kids
(40:26):
specifically.
I feel fairly confident that weare safe for now, but there are
certainly families in ourcommunity that attend the school
who would be targets, attendedthe school, who would be targets
, and the thought of having towitness that or having to face
(40:47):
that in some way is terrifying.
It's heartbreaking, but it isdefinitely possible this day and
age and there are reports of ithappening in places around this
country where children areeither being taken for school or
ICE is going to schools and aSpanish immersion school is
going to be a number one target.
It's just a terrifying stateright now.
Speaker 2 (41:05):
You think about how far down the hole this country
has gone, that our kids not onlyhave to worry about getting
shot in schools, but they alsohave to worry about being raided
and taken out of schools.
Have to worry about beingraided and taken out of schools?
I mean, at what point do welook at that as a culture and a
(41:25):
country and say this is justegregious.
There's no reason why kidsshould be going to school and
worrying about their life in anyway, shape or form.
Speaker 3 (41:37):
Agreed 100%.
Speaker 2 (41:40):
But yet somehow we continue to call ourselves the
greatest country in the world.
It's mind-numbing.
Speaker 1 (41:47):
Yeah, this disconnect , and I think that when people
like to have a tendency to lookat complex issues in simple or
overly simplified terms, right,when we talk about people who
are like, well, these immigrantsare getting services that we
are being denied, that's notactually what's happening.
(42:10):
Right, the decline of ourhealthcare systems, our
education systems this is notdue to immigrants, right at all.
I think the most recent numberthat I recollect something like
$40 billion or somethingcontributing to the economy.
(42:32):
As far as immigrant labor, weknow already.
So Kim and I both haveexperience in food systems,
right, how immigrant labor isvery important.
Now, there are ethics involvedwith that.
As far as the exploitation ofhuman beings to run our food
(42:53):
systems, that is definitelysomething that could be talked
about.
But, I mean, I've been askingquestions of veterinary medicine
as an industry and I have noteven like the food animal
section of our veterinaryindustry.
I have not been able to getcomment out of any of those
organizations about anythingthey're doing to actually
(43:15):
support immigrants that are socritical for those food systems.
So it's, it's very an exampleof people voting against their
own interests, shall we say, andand also where you know our
labor rights originate from.
So I don't.
Kim, do you have anything thatyou want to add to that
(43:35):
conversation?
Speaker 3 (43:37):
I think it's really important for people to
understand just how muchimmigrants contribute to our
society, and, I think, in waysthat people cannot even wrap
their brain around if this isnot something they're familiar
with.
So the industries that I'mfamiliar with that have a heavy
immigration work population and,like you said, the ethics are
(43:59):
something that we definitelyneed to talk about, and maybe
that's a different conversation.
Just things like construction,food systems whether you're
talking about the dairy industryor harvesting vegetables,
things like house cleaning,landscaping, you know all of
these things that help to makeour lives run, to help them
(44:21):
function, child care, thingslike that.
People rely on these servicesday in and day out so that they
can have a healthy, functionallife.
And if you remove theimmigrants from those structures
, who is doing the work?
That's my question who is doingthe work?
(44:41):
And many of those people arepaid with a paycheck from the
company and taxes are taken out,social security is taken out
and they are never allowed toaccess those services because if
they are undocumented, theycan't dip into the social
security system, they can't dipinto the Medicaid system or
Medicare system, and so they arecontributing significantly to
(45:03):
the functioning of our societyand the way that they're being
treated I mean throughouthistory in our country, but
specifically in this moment,right now is just horrendous.
Speaker 2 (45:16):
And we've seen this happen before in our country
with the war on drugs horrendous.
And we've seen this happenbefore in our country with the
war on drugs.
The war on drugs has beenhistorically targeting
immigrants, the LGBT community,anybody who's disenfranchised,
because it's profitable, andthat's what they do.
They use it as a scapegoat, butreally, when it's big pharma
who has clearly caused quite afew problems in our country with
(45:37):
the drug epidemic.
But we have seen many differentgroups of people being targeted
as like the war on drugs, andwe know that that's a bunch of
propaganda and it's BS.
It's just a way to continue todivide people.
And actually, speaking of that,erica, do you know who Marsha
(45:58):
Powell is?
Did we talk about this already?
Speaker 1 (46:01):
I don't think so.
Speaker 2 (46:02):
You should look up.
So for those of you who arelistening, marsha Powell was a
woman.
I believe she was put in anArizona prison.
That's why I'm asking aboutthis.
Her charge was prostitution anddrug use and she also had.
I might be misremembering theactual diagnosis, but I think
(46:22):
she had schizophrenia.
She had like a thought disordergoing on and they put her in an
outside cage in the arizonasystem and she baked to death.
Speaker 1 (46:32):
They denied her water , they denied her basic needs,
exactly what I'm talking aboutwhen I tell you they did the
autopsy on her.
Speaker 2 (46:39):
I forgot what the, the, the temperature of her
internal organs were, but shehad cooked to death and this
again was over and I she wasalso like, um, I believe before
she got there she was unhousedas well.
So it was, I think, yearsbefore there was an actual legal
response to it because shedidn't have any family.
Speaker 1 (47:00):
But that's that's horrific, that happened in this
country, and it's not the firsttime it's happened in this
country this arizona has a deephistory of organizing um on
(47:22):
behalf of immigrant rightsbecause of the dark the level of
darkness right with which hasbeen state-sponsored violence
against human beings, and Ithink this is the the thing that
I have.
You know, like I've grown uplike my parents are immigrants,
(47:46):
I've grown up in an immigrantcommunity, a multicultural
immigrant community.
My life is rich because of thisright being like, when we think
of having this concept of beinga citizen of humanity, being a
(48:06):
citizen of the world.
Right Within Arizona, also,like the indigenous community
here, the O'odham, right, theirlands are divided by the border
the like, the border this is thesaying in arizona the border
(48:27):
crossed us, the border crossedus.
Right, we've always been here.
Right, the like, as far as theindigenous community here has
been and and we've had, therehave been um, indigenous, uh,
community members that have hadrun-ins with ice here, because
obviously, if you have brownskin, you don't look like a
white person.
(48:47):
Um, you, you have potential toto run into problems right and
uh, you know, with with some ofthe community members that I
know, especially with the autumn, um, they're like not able to
go see family on the other sideof the border safely anymore and
(49:13):
you know as a kid, and so myfamily escaped through Berlin
before the wall went up, abouttwo weeks before the wall went
up.
Actually, I have a piece of theBerlin Wall wall came down okay
(49:36):
, in 89 I had I had.
I recommend for people who whodon't have a way because we have
to think about this not in thecontext of just the united
states right to think about thisin other ways, of how migration
of people around the world, howthat's changed.
You know it's changed a lot.
Xenophobia rising has beensomething across the world,
(49:57):
especially in europe, um, uh,after you know the beginning of
the syria, um, syrian, um, civilwar that was kind of like a big
when a lot of this, like death,the, the mechanisms of death,
uh, state it sponsoredsanctioned death around
immigration and migration hasbeen going on and, um, I think
(50:20):
about the that wall a lot, um,and I would suggest that anyone
go to the checkpoint charliemuseum and understand what
happens when you separate peopleby walls and militarize those
walls, like seeing the borderwall and seeing the wall in
(50:45):
Palestine and having thatknowledge of the walls in Berlin
and the people that died andthe families that were separated
, it's like it's bad.
It's just bad, right, when westart to isolate and dehumanize
(51:10):
other people and militarize ourborders.
Right, the whole world needs toget through a lot of things
together and this is the issuethat is keeping us apart um to
solve, like, worldwide problemsthat we all need to be talking
about.
As far as um climate crisis,right, and this is why, like, a
(51:31):
lot of migration happens becauseof the us policies in those
countries, right, and usimperialistic policies in those
countries, right, and the USimperialistic policies in those
countries and damage and bombingthat we have done.
Speaker 2 (51:42):
Well said, erica, and so true.
Unfortunately, kim, because weare running short on time.
What for people who were maybeafraid or in similar situations?
What would you?
What other things would yourecommend?
Speaker 3 (52:05):
So you're referring to people who have immigrants in
their family or are immigrantsthemselves Both, actually, I
think Okay.
So my main strategy that'sworked for me and you know
everybody's different is to beable to, like I said, turn my
rage into action, get involvedin local politics, pay attention
(52:25):
to what is happening in yourcommunities, in your states,
because that's where you canmake the biggest difference.
So, as I had said before, Ihave recently joined my
representative districtscommittee, so I it's something
as simple as having once a monthZoom meetings for, you know, an
hour, hour and a half, and wetalk about local political
(52:47):
issues and we we share ouropinions, we have local
political figures, come in anddo presentations, and it's a way
that I can help to shape whatis happening right here in my
community right now.
I think another thing is tojoin activist groups if you feel
comfortable with that, andactivism doesn't necessarily
(53:09):
mean standing out on the streetcorners with a sign, although
that's important too.
Being able to be loud, I thinkis really important, but some
people are not comfortable withthat, and that's okay.
There are other ways to be loud, I think is really important,
but some people are notcomfortable with that, and
that's okay.
There are other ways to beactive, so it could be things
like writing emails and lettersto your government officials
about things that are importantto you, sharing your opinion,
because they rely on theconstituents for information on
(53:33):
what their constituents want,and so you have to let them know
what's important to you.
If immigrants rights areimportant to you, then speak up,
give them a call, email them,get involved.
I think other ways that you canget involved are to just really
(53:55):
look around you and see what'savailable in your community.
Every state is different, everycommunity is different.
Like I said before, I'm verylucky to live in Delaware, which
is a very blue state,particularly in the community
that I live in.
So that's not to say that theDemocrats are doing everything
(54:17):
right.
There's a lot I disagree with,but I don't feel that my
day-to-day existence is quite inas much jeopardy as in other
places throughout our country,and so I have to use that
responsibility, that privilege,to face and speak up against the
(54:41):
things that I think are wrong,the things that I think are
egregious, and I encourageeverybody to do the same, in
whatever capacity they'recapable.
And you know, it is importantto recognize that we are all
just drops in a bucket, butevery drop counts, every single
drop in a bucket, but every dropcounts, every single drop.
Speaker 2 (55:06):
That's also well said .
And finding allies too, I thinkbecoming bigger, like finding
people who maybe don't have thesame issues but they can be an
ally in a bigger, more power,obviously.
More people, more power.
Speaker 3 (55:18):
Yeah, yeah, that's a great point.
There are so many issues, asyou had mentioned before, that
are all tied together.
It's all woven together andeven though someone may be
passionate about one thing andyou're passionate about the
other thing, making thoseallyships, making those
connections and finding ways tonot have to reinvent the wheel
is also huge.
Speaker 2 (55:41):
All right Well thank you so much, Kim.
Speaker 3 (55:45):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (55:47):
Thank you for telling everybody about Indivisible.
I just found there's a localchapter near me and actually
there's nothing near me, sothat's actually really good.
Speaker 3 (56:00):
That's saying something then Amazing.
Speaker 1 (56:03):
Well, thank you so much, kim, and just thank you
for those reminders of, you know, really building those
community connections, gettinginvolved, getting politically
activated and havingconversations.
You know you can go visit yourrepresentative's offices.
(56:25):
They have times where they'resupposed to be speaking with
their community and right now,absolutely you know, we know
stories of people not answeringtheir phones, etc.
So, like Kim did, getting intorooms where you can use your
voice in person, if you have theability to do so or help
someone in your life, do that.
Do that Because some of thosepersonal connections in this
(56:47):
case here, like I'm working withpeople who have the
relationships with theserepresentatives that they call
them right and can have accessand have these conversations
saying we need you to advocateon the behalf of this person
where you know due process hasbeen violated, blah, blah, blah,
et cetera and that you knowthat contributes to this
(57:12):
community motto of we keep eachother safe.
Speaker 3 (57:18):
Excuse me.
One other thing I would pointout is know your rights, find
out what your rights are.
If you are not an immigrant,you can find out what your
rights are as somebody who is aprotester, a demonstrator, just
as a citizen of the UnitedStates.
So websites such as the ACLU'swebsite have fantastic resources
If you want to share thatinformation.
(57:40):
I know my local ACLU ofDelaware has handouts for free.
I literally place an orderwithin, I'd say, two to three
days.
They fill the order, I go totheir site, which is about 10
minutes from me, and I pick itup and I distribute it to people
.
I know I've taken it todifferent organizations that I'm
part of of and I've just helpedto spread the word, and it's
(58:02):
something simple, it's somethingfree.
I'm again just being a drop inthe bucket, but making a
difference in the way that I can, as you had mentioned, erica, I
think, speaking up to therepresentatives, going
face-to-face, like you said, ordoing the town hall meetings.
I know my government officialshave had a lot of virtual town
hall meetings where you cansubmit a question ahead of time
(58:24):
or you can ask questions therewithin the forum.
I think that's also reallyimportant too.
So I'm really glad you broughtthat point up to see your
government representatives inany capacity that you're able to
, and let your voice be heard.
Speaker 2 (58:41):
Excellent, thank you, thank you so much, and I will
put all the stuff that we talkedabout in the notes as well.
Speaker 1 (58:50):
Hey, stay safe everyone and stay hydrated.
Speaker 2 (58:52):
Thank you for tuning in Hello everybody and thank you
(59:17):
again for listening.
This is just a reminder that nopart of this podcast can be
duplicated or copied withoutwritten consent from either
myself or Wendy.
Thank you again.
This podcast is not intended to serve as therapeutic
advice or to replace anyprofessional treatment.
These opinions belong to us anddo not reflect any company or
agency.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Hello everybody and welcome back to another episode
of the United States of PTSD,and I'm welcoming back Erica and
another great guest speaker.
So, Erica, I'm turning it overto you.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Hi, thank you.
Thank you everyone for tuningin and hope you're doing well
and we're going to start outjust quickly Today's
conversation.
We are going to be talkingabout immigration again and I'm
just going to put this out therethat this is one of the
frontline issues that arehappening right now that we are
having to navigate in ourcommunities across the country.
(00:59):
We have kind of thesecommunities that have been
targeted specifically asscapegoats for so many things,
and that includes transgender,expansive individuals as well as
immigrant community, and alsopro-Palestinian protests or
anti-genocide humanitarianprotesters, and so also when
(01:22):
these three things areintersecting, of course, we have
even more vulnerability.
So if you want to get involved,what I recommend strongly is to
take a look at what's happeningin your state around immigrant
rights and you can buildrelationships with those,
because usually the localfrontline responses are what
really makes a difference ingetting people who have been
(01:45):
unjustly detained and denied dueprocess, that due process.
So the other place that you cango for great information, the
podcast.
It Could Happen here.
They have just a tremendousamount, both historically, of
the history of immigrant, theviolation of immigration rights
(02:05):
or immigrant rights in thiscountry.
Historically speaking, becauseit didn't just start with the
current administration.
It is my pleasure to introduceKim DeLeon pronounce she her.
We've known each other for manyyears and she has been part of
the community network that Ihave.
That bolsters in my energy andthe things that we have in
(02:27):
common passions for ecological,animal and human rights and I
will also pass it off to you totalk about some of the things
that you care about and startingintroducing the story of your
family and why you're here tohave this conversation today.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
Hi, thank you so much for having me on the podcast.
I am very lucky to have knownErica for a long time, and back
then I was getting ready tostart a journey on a trip to
Belize, where I ended up livingthere for two years.
I met my current husband and westarted our life together there
.
After my two years there, wedecided to move to the United
(03:06):
States to have children andstart a life here in the United
States.
We followed all of the properimmigration procedures, did the
paperwork filed everythingappropriately, and we were lucky
enough to be granted a marriagevisa, permanent residence and
then, finally, us citizenshipfor my husband.
(03:28):
We now have a beautiful familythat I take care of here in
Delaware.
I also do all kinds of otherfun things to take care of
humans and non-humans alike.
I'm a preschool teacher, anenvironmental consultant and a
farm worker, and I spend my freetime doing activism work with
organizations such as the ACLUand Indivisible.
(03:50):
I'm also getting involved inlocal politics by participating
in the representative districtcommittee for my area.
So thanks for having me on.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Thank you for being here, kim.
Could you just explain whatIndivisible is for the listeners
, because I'm not sure theywould know what that is.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
Sure, no problem.
So Indivisible is a politicalactivation group and they focus
primarily on democratic issues.
They really are big advocatesfor things like human rights,
things like getting peopleinvolved in voting, protesting
and other activities like that.
They also tend to break downinto smaller units, for lack of
(04:30):
a better word, so I'm in my ownlittle local unit.
If you go to indivisibleorg, Ithink you can find your local
chapter of Indivisible and getinvolved there.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
I love hearing about how you're on a committee,
because this is one of thosethings like it's possible if we
get involved in local and thisis.
Is this at the state level?
Speaker 3 (04:53):
Yes, so it's the.
The district that I'm in is forour state representative, and
the state representative, andthe state representative then
goes to the state level andadvocates for our particular
community.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
I did find the link so I will put it in the notes
for the show for indivisibleorg.
I think it breaks it down basedon state Perfect.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
Well, one of the things that I wanted to ask you,
because there's it's, it's beenan interesting path that we've
lived on collectively aroundimmigration and it's kind of
like always something that'salways changing.
And and some people could saythat our first, most recent
(05:41):
round of large shifts ofimmigration so my parents came
here in the 70s there was muchmore how should I say openness
of people coming to the UnitedStates that contributed to
building like industries, so,for example, all of the things
that we can thank immigrants for.
(06:03):
Workers' rights, right, themajority of our workers' rights
happened through immigrant labormovement, through farm workers
and we'll probably talk a littlebit more about that and also
through, like my parents wereinvolved in the computer
industry.
So huge contributions there,contributions there, and then I
(06:26):
would say from my livingexperience that really started
to shift around 9-11, where westarted to really see things
change drastically about howimmigration was treated.
And then we had this window oftime over the Biden
administration where we had moreopenness again for a period of
time where we started to seemore people be able to get their
(06:47):
citizenship.
I remember being in Florida andmy Lyft driver had just gotten
his citizenship and when heshared it with me.
I actually started cryingbecause I had had friends who
were married to, for example,Prince from Iran, who were not
(07:09):
able, had complications aboutvisas and things for a very long
time under the previous roundof the Trump administration,
that were potentially needing tomove in order to be able to
continue working for thecompanies that you know had
facilitated their immigrationbecause of the, their value.
(07:32):
So I cried and so was that.
Was that the time period alsofor for you and your family,
where that, where thatcitizenship was able to be
obtained?
Speaker 3 (07:42):
Yeah, so my husband was able to get a citizen.
That citizenship was able to beobtained.
Yeah, so my husband was able toget a citizenship at the end of
2016.
So we had obviously beenworking on the documents for
several years.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
We had moved to the.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
United States in 2012 .
So it was about a four-yearprocess all in all, and we were
lucky because it was a marriagevisa situation, which is much
faster than other types ofcitizenship applications.
It can take many, many moreyears if it's not through a
marriage visa situation.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
Kim, if you could talk a little bit about because
I not because I know thelisteners.
Obviously the people listeningto the show probably are not
going to be opposed to the stuffthat you're talking about
because you know who we are, butI would imagine if somebody
were and they were listening toit, they would say, well, look
how easy that was.
She did it the right way and itwas just super easy.
(08:32):
But that's not the reality ofit for most people, right?
So can you talk about the maybethe nuanced difficulty of what
that's like to get citizenship?
Speaker 3 (08:46):
Yes, of course.
So I think it's reallyinteresting.
Like you said, a lot of peopleseem to think it's just, you
know, a click of a button orfill out one paper and you're
all set.
And you know, maybe back in theday when we had the Ellis
Island immigration and you couldjust go to Ellis Island and
fill out a paper or get a stampor whatever the situation was,
(09:07):
it was very quick and it wasvery easy.
And that is not the reality thatI've experienced in this
country this day and age.
It is a thousands of dollarprocess with all of the
paperwork.
It is multi-year, it issignificantly complicated
paperwork that requires a prettyhigh level of education, a high
(09:29):
level of competency in beingable to understand all the legal
jargon that's in there.
So many people are going tofind it inaccessible and if they
can't afford a lawyer thatspecializes in immigration,
they're going to really have ahard time getting through all of
the legal steps.
Not to mention, there is noguarantee, when you file those
(09:50):
papers and you pay the money,that you are going to be granted
the status that you're applyingfor, whether it's permanent
residence or citizenship, andI've had that.
I've watched that experienceagain and again and again with
people I know, whether it'sfriends or extended family, and
(10:10):
it could be something as simpleas trying to apply for a
visitor's visa to the UnitedStates and use their skills,
their craft, their educationthat they received in other
countries to be able toestablish a life here.
And it's rejected and thatmoney is gone, that time and
energy is gone, and it is sodevastating to experience that,
(10:36):
to think that I'm doingeverything right and it's still
not working and I've lost allthat time and all of that money
for what.
It's really devastatingsometimes.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
So it's cost prohibitive for most people.
It's incredibly confusing, andI think something that a lot of
people don't realize too is thatwhile people are here, they're
still paying taxes, correct?
Speaker 3 (10:59):
Oh, absolutely, so you're paying into the system,
you're paying to be here, you'repaying for representation, and
you could be denied afterspending thousands and thousands
and thousands of dollars to beable to get my husband to come
(11:27):
into this country legally tostep foot on the soil, he was
denied two visitor's visas, andI don't know for sure, but my
suspicion is that it was becausehe was a young, strong, capable
gentleman who would be able tofind a job in many of the
industries that hire people withundocumented status so whether
(11:48):
it's construction, farming,things like that and they
thought that he would justoverstay his visitor's visa.
So they denied him a visitor'svisa at all.
So we tried that route twiceand it didn't work.
Then we ended up gettingmarried in Belize, having all of
the documentation to prove thatit was a real marriage.
We had to do interviews, whichthey asked extremely personal
(12:10):
questions.
I won't get into it, but let metell you I was not prepared.
I was expecting things aboutwhat color toothbrush does he
use, or you know what did he getyou for Valentine's Day, and it
was way more embarrassing.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Invasive.
Speaker 3 (12:28):
Invasive yes, invasive and embarrassing than
that.
They wanted to verify that itwas a real relationship,
apparently, and that's thestrategy that they used.
So it was very uncomfortable,but we did obviously get the
marriage visa.
It was very uncomfortable, butwe did obviously get the
marriage visa, and when youapply for the marriage visa, you
fill out the documents, yousend in the money and there is
(12:52):
no indication of how long it'sgoing to take.
It could take weeks, it couldtake months, it could take years
.
They give you no information,but what you have to prove is
that you have a job waiting foryou in the United States, you
have housing waiting for you inthe United States, you have
housing waiting for you in theUnited States, you have some
sort of support as far as likebeing able to have income, and I
(13:15):
don't know very many people whohave that already established
in the United States justwaiting there for them for
whenever the visa is granted.
Now, thankfully, in myparticular situation, I had a
relative who had a farm and shehad some housing space that we
were able to use, and so we didhave jobs lined up and we could
come whenever the visa wasgranted, whether it was six
(13:36):
months after we applied, a yearafter we applied, two weeks
after we applied.
So I was really, reallyfortunate to have all of the
things that they require, but Ican't imagine there's a lot of
people who had that set upalready, waiting for them to
just fingers crossed and gettheir visa accepted.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
When you because I know you said you lived in
Belize for two years did youhave to become a citizen of
Belize as well?
Speaker 3 (14:03):
No, I never got my Belizean citizenship.
I went there on a work visa, soI worked in a school that was
an English immersion school, andthat's how I was able to stay
there for the two years.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
I was just curious if there was like a comparison,
like what it would be like there.
Speaker 3 (14:19):
So I had to fill out some of the papers.
The company that I worked forhad to fill out the majority of
the papers, but it wassignificantly faster.
I have looked into becoming aBelizean citizen and you know
it's complicated paperwork.
It's expensive, but nothinglike here in the United States.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
I remember during the first regime of the Trump years
, I had looked at going toCanada and I couldn't believe
how expensive it was.
It was, I think they had said Imean there were ways around it.
They said if I had, if I hadbeen offered a job which I'm
sure I could have if I reallytried to but outside of that,
they wanted me to have a hundredthousand dollars in the bank.
And when I was talking to theperson on the phone he made it
(14:59):
sound like everybody had ahundred thousand dollars in the
bank and I was like, really doyou?
Because, like you know, it'sreally really expensive.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
It is.
My parents, again during theTrump years and the first go
around looked into moving to NewZealand and I think they
required like a million dollarsin the bank if you were over a
certain age because you wouldn'tbe working necessarily a
full-time job and contributingto the economy.
So you had to prove that youwere an asset to the country
(15:30):
with your own supplies to beable to afford it.
So cost is a huge issue when itcomes to immigration.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
That's actually a good point, because it was.
The reason why it was soexpensive was because of age,
because I think at the time Iwas I don't remember how old I
was at the time 43, 42,somewhere around there, and
they're like, yeah, you're tooold and I was like what.
Speaker 3 (15:51):
Yeah, I recently looked into going to Canada.
I have relatives over there andit was if you were over 45,
basically forget it.
And I just thought, oh my gosh,how is this possible?
I have so many years ahead ofme and yet it's considered too
old?
Speaker 2 (16:08):
But now that I found out how they treat their
indigenous people.
Plus, there's a program upthere called the MAID program,
which is an assisted suicideprogram that they actually try
to.
If you're costing the countrytoo much money, they actually
try to encourage you to commitsuicide and that's for mental
health.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
Are you serious?
Speaker 2 (16:23):
I actually had somebody from Canada on the show
talking about it and he saidthat they basically will send
you information to your housesaying we think you should kill
yourself Cause, like none ofthis stuff has been working.
So once I found out about thatI was like no, Canada, Thanks.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
No, my gosh.
Well, I think so, somethingthat I wanted to kind of mention
here, since we just talkedabout this process through the
marriage visa and work visa,that and so, for example, the
current administration hasbasically revoked asylum status
(17:12):
for a large cohort of people,not only that had status
recently, over the last fouryears as far as places like
Haiti, but also are threateningthe status of Haiti and Ukraine,
but are also threatening status.
(17:33):
For example, we have citizensfrom Bhutan and other areas that
have been here for a long timewith protective status that are
now you know, no one understandsPeople who are naturalized
citizens as well as are alsonervous about that happening.
So, matt, if you're willing toshare some of your experience as
far as the people that you knowaround asylum, I only have one
(17:58):
experience and that was well.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
I guess I have two technically.
One of them was kind ofperipherally so I had.
This was during the COVID years.
I sponsored somebody fromHonduras.
He had come here seeking asylumbecause in Honduras, I guess
they're not very LGBT friendlyand he was tortured many times.
He actually had like whip markson his back and all sorts of
stuff he had scarring, and hecame here legally.
(18:24):
He did it the like I said, thelegal way.
He was seeking asylum and he wastaken to one of the detention
centers in Texas and he reportedthat he was raped by the guards
down there repeatedly and youknow.
So it was, I guess, worse forhim coming here on some level
that he ended up.
Luckily he's doing really well.
He's in a different state now.
(18:45):
He also had a friend that camefrom Cuba and that friend was
being sponsored by a friend ofmine.
He also, I think, is doingreally well, but the stories
they told were horrific andscary as to why they left in the
first place and then thetreatment that they got while
they were here.
Strangely, one of them is aTrump supporter, which kind of
(19:06):
is a little bit baffling to me.
But yeah, that's I mean.
So that's the limitedexperience I have.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
Well, I think it emphasizes the fact that when we
on talking about how detentionhas been privatized Same thing
with our carceral system, and sowe have private companies who
(19:38):
are made we have corporatizedhuman rights violations.
Fundamentally, that is where weare now.
We have corporatized theviolation of human rights, where
immigrants of varying statusesso not just undocumented, but
(19:59):
also immigrants that have validstatuses are being denied due
process and put into detentioncenters that are private
companies that currently havehuman rights violation records,
right of not being able toprovide and their over capacity,
(20:21):
don't have enough water andfood, and that, additionally,
there are some detention centersFor example, the Biden
administration started theprocess of open air detentions
in areas where people are havingheat exposure and environmental
exposure.
So this is when we talk aboutthis being a deadly situation
(20:44):
and how immigrants with validstatus are also at risk for
being scooped up in this process.
This is, this is very seriousand so, um, can, can you talk a
little bit?
Are you willing to talk alittle bit about how you and
your family have been likepreparing around this and how,
how this has been impacting bothyou and your family?
(21:05):
Sure?
Speaker 3 (21:07):
So I participated in an ACLU Know your Rights for
Immigrants workshop and I had myhusband participate as well,
and the thing that struck me themost out of all the things they
said was if you are herelegally, you need to make
photocopies of your paperworkand keep it with you at all
(21:28):
times so that at the drop of ahat you can provide that
documentation to anyone whotries to come and scoop you up.
So one morning I woke up early,before my kids got up and
before my husband got up, and Ihad to make photocopies of his
citizenship papers.
I had to make one to keep inthe truck, one to keep in the
(21:48):
van, one for him to keep in hiswallet, and I did have him send
one to his employer.
They never requested it, but Iwanted them to be able to have
it on file just in case therewas ever an issue.
My husband does landscaping andhe works in public areas
frequently.
One of the main organizationsthat he works for is for a
(22:09):
school district, so he's on theside of a road or on the
playground or on these sportsfields mowing and it would be so
easy for ICE to come and scoophim up, and particularly because
he, his business, is based inPennsylvania, which is even more
dangerous than Delaware.
Thankfully, delaware is so farresisting a lot of what's
(22:33):
happening, that we're definitelyhaving issues, but Pennsylvania
even more so with the thestories of ICE agents coming in
scooping up people.
Recently there was a big ICEraid at a Dollar General about a
half an hour away from me andit was terrifying.
It was like a Saturday morningPeople were out shopping and
(22:55):
they just came to the parkinglot and started scooping up
people.
So that keeps me up at night thethought of him just not coming
home one day because he was weedwhacking on the side of the
road and somebody saw that hewas the wrong color and decided
that he was a danger to oursociety.
(23:16):
It's really been terrifying tothe point where we're actually
talking about moving to Belizeto try and return back to family
.
It just feels like things aregetting so stressful right now,
so tenuous, and it doesn't feellike there are enough people
standing up and championing forpeople like me and people like
(23:39):
my family up and championing forpeople like me and people like
my family.
I recently had a situationwhere my husband was doing
something on Facebookmarketplace, trying to sell a
lawnmower or something and hewas having a conversation with
somebody who was interested inbuying it and all of a sudden,
(24:13):
out of nowhere, this person justsaid this really vile racial
slur to him and just said thisreally vile, racial.
A long and sad history in ourcountry, but in the 13 years
that we've lived here, nothinglike that has ever happened
before.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
And the fact that it's happening right now I don't
think is a coincidence.
First of all, I'm sorry thatyou have to experience that it's
just everything about it isterrible.
Do you think this is just likea personal opinion?
Obviously.
Do you think that there'sbecause I think about like Gaza,
(24:49):
right, and I think about likePalestine and the genocide
that's happening there, andthere actually is a lot of
people who are against it, butit's really the government that
doesn't care.
So do you think it's more thepeople or do you think it's more
the people or do you think it'smore the government?
Speaker 3 (25:03):
Well, I mean, I definitely think it's the
government.
However, I will say that I'vehad a lot of conversations with
people that I know in mycommunity, with people I
consider friends, and a lot ofthem feel like they don't have
the bandwidth to stand up andsay something they don't agree
with what is happening at all.
They feel like it's tragic,it's a shame, but they're not
(25:25):
willing to put their necks outand speak up and stand up and
say we won't take this and I getit.
I mean, I really do.
Everybody right now just isdoing their best to keep their
head above water, whether it'staking care of their families,
trying to keep their familiessafe, trying to manage full-time
jobs, multiple jobs at a time,paying the bills, which is no
(25:48):
small feat these days.
So I think a lot of theproblems is with the government
and the structures that we havein place in the government, but
I think that a lot of peoplealso feel like this is a real
shame, wish I could do somethingabout it, and they do a lot of
hand-wringing, but they're notwilling to stand up and speak
(26:09):
out.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
That's by design too, because there are so many
egregious and atrocious thingshappening right now, human
violations all over the placeand again, I'm not making
excuses for for this, becauseeverybody does need to be doing
their part.
So many people are feelingburnt out because they're
fighting from every angle.
I hear it a lot from mystudents who are trying to be
(26:30):
somewhat active politically andthey're just, they get
frustrated because there's somany things happening all over
the place that we just we onlyhave so much bandwidth.
Like you said, if everybodycould kind of come together, I
think, because there's reallyone issue that permeates through
every issue we talk about, andif we could get everybody united
on that front, I think we'd bea stronger force, but people
(26:53):
would just fried.
Speaker 3 (26:56):
Right?
Oh, I agree with thatwholeheartedly.
I've seen that in my communityas well.
It's really hard when you feellike you're under attack every
single day.
What's the new issue, what'sthe new problem?
Pick your lane, pick your speedand do something so you don't
(27:18):
have to be active on every topic, but find something you're
passionate about and startmaking a difference in that one
area.
So for me right now, it'simmigrants' rights.
That doesn't mean I don't careabout rights of other groups of
people.
I'm very passionate about humanrights in general.
However, I have the bandwidthto handle the immigrants rights
(27:41):
situation right now, and sothat's what I'm putting my
energy and turning my rage intoaction, if you will, so that I
feel like I can do something.
I feel like I can make adifference and not feel helpless
and hopeless and depressed.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
You are a great example and I wish everybody
could learn from this, kim.
So, for the listeners that areout there, kim is doing this
really well, taking all of thepassion and the anger and
channeling it into somethingincredibly productive and useful
, and it's something that you'repassionate about and it's
something that you're wellversed in.
And if everybody could, likeyou said, find their lane and
(28:17):
pick a topic and say, okay, thisis a topic I'm passionate about
, like Erica with veterinariancare, I mean, there are things
that we just we're really goodat it and that's where we can be
putting our effort.
I a hundred percent agree withthat, kim, and thank you for
sharing that.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
No problem.
One thing that I've been doingis I've been kind of scared.
So I live in, I live in thestate of Arizona, which you know
Arizona, texas, louisiana,florida, probably missing a
couple.
These are some of the what Iwould call like frontline states
.
In the aspect of detention,right, we're actually seeing
(28:56):
militarization of the borders.
So around the borderlands inArizona we have a couple and I'm
going to refer to the genocidein Gaza because this is actually
linked In the borderlands area.
The actual militarization of theborder and the monitoring is
(29:17):
technology from Israel and thethings that are utilized for
monitoring or there's anotherword for it that I would prefer
to use in a situation that's notcoming to mind basically like
mechanisms of like what amilitary police state in an
occupation does as far asmonitoring and surveilling the
(29:38):
populace.
That is literally now beingdeployed at the borders.
Right, and I'm half German, soonce upon a time there was a
wall, berlin.
So that is like seeing thosewalls go up, seeing the walls go
up in Palestine, seeing thewalls go up here, seeing the
(30:03):
walls go up in Palestine, seeingthe walls go up here and how it
interferes with movement ofspecies, right, migratory
species that need to go acrossthe border.
It interferes with some of thethings that they used.
As far as water, it's a water,it's an essential resource,
utilizing water.
As far as the process ofbuilding a wall, these things.
As far as the increased policingof the populace in Arizona,
(30:24):
we're feeling it here, right,and it's very important if you
are in a state to understandthat this is why, when we have
people who are being scooped up,their due process is being
violated.
Then they're also flown to thestates like Arizona, louisiana
(30:44):
and Texas into detention,because the ways that immigrants
are handled in those states aredifferent.
As far as trying to increasethe rapidity of deporting people
and actually you can't evennecessarily use that, you can't
use the term deported for theway that they're going about
(31:05):
some of these things, especiallyas they're dealing with
citizens as well but one of thethings that's also happening
with these detentions is that itreduces accesses of people to
their lawyers.
All of these things areconnected and they're also, you
(31:26):
know, it's been a progressiveprocess.
So if you're not familiar withthis issue especially because
this is where our rights willalso be eroded over time,
especially with the loss ofpotential loss of due process
that's something that we reallyneed to be continuing to talk
about.
So I do recommend, even if it'snot the issue that you want to
(31:46):
focus on, at least be informedabout it, because it is a place
where the Overton window isshifting and the policing window
is also shifting onto UScitizens as well.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
To add to that, erica , about losing rights, I just
got a text today from the ADCabout a bill that's going up HR
867, that will criminalizeboycotts against Israel.
That seeks up to 20 years inprison and a million dollars in
fine and it will create ablacklist against companies and
(32:21):
organizations that arecriticizing or boycotting Israel
.
I never thought I would live ina country where it's against
the law and you're beingcriminalized to speak out
against a country that'scommitting genocide.
It's just wild.
So I will put this in the notestoo as well.
I've already contacted my, mycongressman and senator but
(32:41):
they're all owned by APEC anywaytelling them to not to oppose
the bill.
But I'll put it in the notes.
So that's HR 867.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
That immigrants, especially like like immigrants
that are here on visas on, havebeen speaking out about these
things.
There's a reason whydiscussions around human rights
and protests around human rightsusually include people who are
(33:17):
from around the world.
People who are from around theworld, and that is because these
are people who also haveorganized around human rights
under conditions that we havehad the privilege to ignore as a
citizenry.
And yeah, thanks for sharingthat, matt, and I'm actually I'm
(33:40):
finding myself at a loss forwords.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
I can.
I'll forward it to you if youwant, because you should contact
your person as well, or peopleI should say.
Sorry, kim, we had to go off onthat for a second.
Speaker 3 (33:52):
I apologize, no worries, that's no problem.
I think it's important to talkabout.
Yeah, I think it's important totalk about.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
Yeah, what Kim?
You had talked about people whoare carrying their paperwork
with them, like making sure thatthey have copies.
Is that because we all knowthat ICE is corrupt and they
don't care about?
Does the paperwork really stopthem?
Speaker 3 (34:15):
So that's a great question.
One of the things they coveredin that ACLU Know your Rights
for Immigrants workshop was thatthe paperwork that ICE often
presents is not necessarily whatis legally required.
So they might take a paper thatlooks sort of legal-like but it
might be missing key informationlike the name of the person
(34:35):
they're supposed to be taking,the warrant for the arrest or
the scooping up of the person.
It could be missing the properlocation or you know just these
details where if they just flasha piece of paper at you, it
looks like that's official andthey've got everything they need
.
So it's really important thatpeople who might be dealing with
(35:00):
this take a real close look atthe paperwork and know what
they're looking for, becomefamiliar with those things that
are legally required before theyare lawfully allowed to have
any sort of contact with ICE orbe taken by ICE contact with ICE
(35:21):
or be taken by ICE, because Icould tell me if I'm wrong about
this, because I don't have anyexperience with this and I've
never talked to somebody thathas been detained by ICE or has
dealt with ICE.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
But I would imagine, just given what they do, if I
was walking down the street andI was by myself and I was not
native to this country and I hadmy documents on me and ICE came
rolling up and I showed themthe paperwork, what's to stop
them from actually just rippingthe paperwork out of my hand,
arresting me anyway and thenjust saying, like you know, I
didn't have it?
Speaker 3 (35:53):
Yeah, there's nothing to stop you.
One of the things that the ACLUrecommends is to videotape or
photograph anything andeverything.
Will ICE allow you to hold yourphone and videotape it?
No, probably not.
But if you happen to besomebody who witnesses this
happening for instance, the raidthat I told you that happened
(36:13):
about a half an hour from whereI live in Pennsylvania there
were people who were witnessingthis and recording the entire
incident and you can submit thatwhat's the word I'm looking for
material over to organizationslike the ACLU and they can use
that to try and have legal proofthat something was done or not
(36:38):
done as it was supposed to be.
So, even if it's not directlyimpacting you, if you just
happen to be walking down thestreet and see something, it's
important that you stop and youtake the time to make sure that
it's recorded.
It's documented because thatcould be used later on to help
that person in court.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
So what I think the really important thing for the
listeners to hear is that reallyit's our job especially if we
are about protecting humanrights to be loud If we see
stuff like that happening and totake on the role of you know,
like a protector, and say, okay,we're going to, we're going to
(37:19):
tape record this, we're going torecord it.
We say, okay, we're gonna,we're gonna tape record this,
we're gonna record it, we'regonna, we're gonna do something
with it, to be the voice for thepeople who don't have the voice
.
Speaker 1 (37:25):
Basically, Absolutely , that's well said.
So I am.
So I am currently scanning asignal chat that I am in as of
community organizers that wereactually talking about a local
response to a and I'll send yousome links to some articles.
There was a Guatemalan womanwho is well, was pregnant and
(37:48):
gave birth and was for a periodof time separated from her baby
while she was put into detention.
She was put into detention andher baby was in the hospital
(38:11):
without clear understanding ofwhat was going to happen to the
child when she and her childwere going to.
Thankfully, they have beenreunited and part of that
process has been organized bylocal response just emphasizes
the fact that people within yourcommunity get, if you care
about this issue, absolutely getconnected to local community,
(38:31):
because this is making a hugedifference, because when people
are being disappeared likeliterally, we have people who
are being disappeared, havepeople who are being disappeared
.
This is particularly impacting.
You know, venezuelan asylumseekers who have been here for
several years, that families whohave also come here through
(38:52):
legal means are beingdisappeared and being denied due
process and are being sent tofacilities internationally and
also sometimes being sent tocountries that have nothing to
do.
They're third-party countriesright.
So we have Chinese immigrantswho have been sent to, like
Panama.
(39:12):
There are plenty of newsarticles about these things,
things and it's just thisprocess of having these
conversations making sure thatyou're prepared to record
understanding in your state ifthere are any restrictions on
how close you can be to policeofficers specifically, I don't
think that there's anythingabout ICE specifically knowing
(39:37):
that they might not be honestwith you.
If you see someone beingdetained and and see if you can
get their name, that's even veryjust calling out and being like
what is your name right, so youcan try and get that
information to people who canhelp that person.
Um, all of these things areimportant and it's it's wild
(39:58):
that these are the conversationsthat we are having, but it is
the way that we need to beprepared.
Speaker 3 (40:05):
Yeah, one thing I didn't mention earlier when I
was talking about my own familystory is that my children are in
a Spanish immersion school inelementary school and one of my
biggest fears is that ICE willcome in and do a raid or demand
that the kids are taken out ofthe school Not my kids
(40:26):
specifically.
I feel fairly confident that weare safe for now, but there are
certainly families in ourcommunity that attend the school
who would be targets, attendedthe school, who would be targets
, and the thought of having towitness that or having to face
(40:47):
that in some way is terrifying.
It's heartbreaking, but it isdefinitely possible this day and
age and there are reports of ithappening in places around this
country where children areeither being taken for school or
ICE is going to schools and aSpanish immersion school is
going to be a number one target.
It's just a terrifying stateright now.
Speaker 2 (41:05):
You think about how far down the hole this country
has gone, that our kids not onlyhave to worry about getting
shot in schools, but they alsohave to worry about being raided
and taken out of schools.
Have to worry about beingraided and taken out of schools?
I mean, at what point do welook at that as a culture and a
(41:25):
country and say this is justegregious.
There's no reason why kidsshould be going to school and
worrying about their life in anyway, shape or form.
Speaker 3 (41:37):
Agreed 100%.
Speaker 2 (41:40):
But yet somehow we continue to call ourselves the
greatest country in the world.
It's mind-numbing.
Speaker 1 (41:47):
Yeah, this disconnect , and I think that when people
like to have a tendency to lookat complex issues in simple or
overly simplified terms, right,when we talk about people who
are like, well, these immigrantsare getting services that we
are being denied, that's notactually what's happening.
(42:10):
Right, the decline of ourhealthcare systems, our
education systems this is notdue to immigrants, right at all.
I think the most recent numberthat I recollect something like
$40 billion or somethingcontributing to the economy.
(42:32):
As far as immigrant labor, weknow already.
So Kim and I both haveexperience in food systems,
right, how immigrant labor isvery important.
Now, there are ethics involvedwith that.
As far as the exploitation ofhuman beings to run our food
(42:53):
systems, that is definitelysomething that could be talked
about.
But, I mean, I've been askingquestions of veterinary medicine
as an industry and I have noteven like the food animal
section of our veterinaryindustry.
I have not been able to getcomment out of any of those
organizations about anythingthey're doing to actually
(43:15):
support immigrants that are socritical for those food systems.
So it's, it's very an exampleof people voting against their
own interests, shall we say, andand also where you know our
labor rights originate from.
So I don't.
Kim, do you have anything thatyou want to add to that
(43:35):
conversation?
Speaker 3 (43:37):
I think it's really important for people to
understand just how muchimmigrants contribute to our
society, and, I think, in waysthat people cannot even wrap
their brain around if this isnot something they're familiar
with.
So the industries that I'mfamiliar with that have a heavy
immigration work population and,like you said, the ethics are
(43:59):
something that we definitelyneed to talk about, and maybe
that's a different conversation.
Just things like construction,food systems whether you're
talking about the dairy industryor harvesting vegetables,
things like house cleaning,landscaping, you know all of
these things that help to makeour lives run, to help them
(44:21):
function, child care, thingslike that.
People rely on these servicesday in and day out so that they
can have a healthy, functionallife.
And if you remove theimmigrants from those structures
, who is doing the work?
That's my question who is doingthe work?
(44:41):
And many of those people arepaid with a paycheck from the
company and taxes are taken out,social security is taken out
and they are never allowed toaccess those services because if
they are undocumented, theycan't dip into the social
security system, they can't dipinto the Medicaid system or
Medicare system, and so they arecontributing significantly to
(45:03):
the functioning of our societyand the way that they're being
treated I mean throughouthistory in our country, but
specifically in this moment,right now is just horrendous.
Speaker 2 (45:16):
And we've seen this happen before in our country
with the war on drugs horrendous.
And we've seen this happenbefore in our country with the
war on drugs.
The war on drugs has beenhistorically targeting
immigrants, the LGBT community,anybody who's disenfranchised,
because it's profitable, andthat's what they do.
They use it as a scapegoat, butreally, when it's big pharma
who has clearly caused quite afew problems in our country with
(45:37):
the drug epidemic.
But we have seen many differentgroups of people being targeted
as like the war on drugs, andwe know that that's a bunch of
propaganda and it's BS.
It's just a way to continue todivide people.
And actually, speaking of that,erica, do you know who Marsha
(45:58):
Powell is?
Did we talk about this already?
Speaker 1 (46:01):
I don't think so.
Speaker 2 (46:02):
You should look up.
So for those of you who arelistening, marsha Powell was a
woman.
I believe she was put in anArizona prison.
That's why I'm asking aboutthis.
Her charge was prostitution anddrug use and she also had.
I might be misremembering theactual diagnosis, but I think
(46:22):
she had schizophrenia.
She had like a thought disordergoing on and they put her in an
outside cage in the arizonasystem and she baked to death.
Speaker 1 (46:32):
They denied her water , they denied her basic needs,
exactly what I'm talking aboutwhen I tell you they did the
autopsy on her.
Speaker 2 (46:39):
I forgot what the, the, the temperature of her
internal organs were, but shehad cooked to death and this
again was over and I she wasalso like, um, I believe before
she got there she was unhousedas well.
So it was, I think, yearsbefore there was an actual legal
response to it because shedidn't have any family.
Speaker 1 (47:00):
But that's that's horrific, that happened in this
country, and it's not the firsttime it's happened in this
country this arizona has a deephistory of organizing um on
(47:22):
behalf of immigrant rightsbecause of the dark the level of
darkness right with which hasbeen state-sponsored violence
against human beings, and Ithink this is the the thing that
I have.
You know, like I've grown uplike my parents are immigrants,
(47:46):
I've grown up in an immigrantcommunity, a multicultural
immigrant community.
My life is rich because of thisright being like, when we think
of having this concept of beinga citizen of humanity, being a
(48:06):
citizen of the world.
Right Within Arizona, also,like the indigenous community
here, the O'odham, right, theirlands are divided by the border
the like, the border this is thesaying in arizona the border
(48:27):
crossed us, the border crossedus.
Right, we've always been here.
Right, the like, as far as theindigenous community here has
been and and we've had, therehave been um, indigenous, uh,
community members that have hadrun-ins with ice here, because
obviously, if you have brownskin, you don't look like a
white person.
(48:47):
Um, you, you have potential toto run into problems right and
uh, you know, with with some ofthe community members that I
know, especially with the autumn, um, they're like not able to
go see family on the other sideof the border safely anymore and
(49:13):
you know as a kid, and so myfamily escaped through Berlin
before the wall went up, abouttwo weeks before the wall went
up.
Actually, I have a piece of theBerlin Wall wall came down okay
(49:36):
, in 89 I had I had.
I recommend for people who whodon't have a way because we have
to think about this not in thecontext of just the united
states right to think about thisin other ways, of how migration
of people around the world, howthat's changed.
You know it's changed a lot.
Xenophobia rising has beensomething across the world,
(49:57):
especially in europe, um, uh,after you know the beginning of
the syria, um, syrian, um, civilwar that was kind of like a big
when a lot of this, like death,the, the mechanisms of death,
uh, state it sponsoredsanctioned death around
immigration and migration hasbeen going on and, um, I think
(50:20):
about the that wall a lot, um,and I would suggest that anyone
go to the checkpoint charliemuseum and understand what
happens when you separate peopleby walls and militarize those
walls, like seeing the borderwall and seeing the wall in
(50:45):
Palestine and having thatknowledge of the walls in Berlin
and the people that died andthe families that were separated
, it's like it's bad.
It's just bad, right, when westart to isolate and dehumanize
(51:10):
other people and militarize ourborders.
Right, the whole world needs toget through a lot of things
together and this is the issuethat is keeping us apart um to
solve, like, worldwide problemsthat we all need to be talking
about.
As far as um climate crisis,right, and this is why, like, a
(51:31):
lot of migration happens becauseof the us policies in those
countries, right, and usimperialistic policies in those
countries, right, and the USimperialistic policies in those
countries and damage and bombingthat we have done.
Speaker 2 (51:42):
Well said, erica, and so true.
Unfortunately, kim, because weare running short on time.
What for people who were maybeafraid or in similar situations?
What would you?
What other things would yourecommend?
Speaker 3 (52:05):
So you're referring to people who have immigrants in
their family or are immigrantsthemselves Both, actually, I
think Okay.
So my main strategy that'sworked for me and you know
everybody's different is to beable to, like I said, turn my
rage into action, get involvedin local politics, pay attention
(52:25):
to what is happening in yourcommunities, in your states,
because that's where you canmake the biggest difference.
So, as I had said before, Ihave recently joined my
representative districtscommittee, so I it's something
as simple as having once a monthZoom meetings for, you know, an
hour, hour and a half, and wetalk about local political
(52:47):
issues and we we share ouropinions, we have local
political figures, come in anddo presentations, and it's a way
that I can help to shape whatis happening right here in my
community right now.
I think another thing is tojoin activist groups if you feel
comfortable with that, andactivism doesn't necessarily
(53:09):
mean standing out on the streetcorners with a sign, although
that's important too.
Being able to be loud, I thinkis really important, but some
people are not comfortable withthat, and that's okay.
There are other ways to be loud, I think is really important,
but some people are notcomfortable with that, and
that's okay.
There are other ways to beactive, so it could be things
like writing emails and lettersto your government officials
about things that are importantto you, sharing your opinion,
because they rely on theconstituents for information on
(53:33):
what their constituents want,and so you have to let them know
what's important to you.
If immigrants rights areimportant to you, then speak up,
give them a call, email them,get involved.
I think other ways that you canget involved are to just really
(53:55):
look around you and see what'savailable in your community.
Every state is different, everycommunity is different.
Like I said before, I'm verylucky to live in Delaware, which
is a very blue state,particularly in the community
that I live in.
So that's not to say that theDemocrats are doing everything
(54:17):
right.
There's a lot I disagree with,but I don't feel that my
day-to-day existence is quite inas much jeopardy as in other
places throughout our country,and so I have to use that
responsibility, that privilege,to face and speak up against the
(54:41):
things that I think are wrong,the things that I think are
egregious, and I encourageeverybody to do the same, in
whatever capacity they'recapable.
And you know, it is importantto recognize that we are all
just drops in a bucket, butevery drop counts, every single
drop in a bucket, but every dropcounts, every single drop.
Speaker 2 (55:06):
That's also well said .
And finding allies too, I thinkbecoming bigger, like finding
people who maybe don't have thesame issues but they can be an
ally in a bigger, more power,obviously.
More people, more power.
Speaker 3 (55:18):
Yeah, yeah, that's a great point.
There are so many issues, asyou had mentioned before, that
are all tied together.
It's all woven together andeven though someone may be
passionate about one thing andyou're passionate about the
other thing, making thoseallyships, making those
connections and finding ways tonot have to reinvent the wheel
is also huge.
Speaker 2 (55:41):
All right Well thank you so much, Kim.
Speaker 3 (55:45):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (55:47):
Thank you for telling everybody about Indivisible.
I just found there's a localchapter near me and actually
there's nothing near me, sothat's actually really good.
Speaker 3 (56:00):
That's saying something then Amazing.
Speaker 1 (56:03):
Well, thank you so much, kim, and just thank you
for those reminders of, you know, really building those
community connections, gettinginvolved, getting politically
activated and havingconversations.
You know you can go visit yourrepresentative's offices.
(56:25):
They have times where they'resupposed to be speaking with
their community and right now,absolutely you know, we know
stories of people not answeringtheir phones, etc.
So, like Kim did, getting intorooms where you can use your
voice in person, if you have theability to do so or help
someone in your life, do that.
Do that Because some of thosepersonal connections in this
(56:47):
case here, like I'm working withpeople who have the
relationships with theserepresentatives that they call
them right and can have accessand have these conversations
saying we need you to advocateon the behalf of this person
where you know due process hasbeen violated, blah, blah, blah,
et cetera and that you knowthat contributes to this
(57:12):
community motto of we keep eachother safe.
Speaker 3 (57:18):
Excuse me.
One other thing I would pointout is know your rights, find
out what your rights are.
If you are not an immigrant,you can find out what your
rights are as somebody who is aprotester, a demonstrator, just
as a citizen of the UnitedStates.
So websites such as the ACLU'swebsite have fantastic resources
If you want to share thatinformation.
(57:40):
I know my local ACLU ofDelaware has handouts for free.
I literally place an orderwithin, I'd say, two to three
days.
They fill the order, I go totheir site, which is about 10
minutes from me, and I pick itup and I distribute it to people
.
I know I've taken it todifferent organizations that I'm
part of of and I've just helpedto spread the word, and it's
(58:02):
something simple, it's somethingfree.
I'm again just being a drop inthe bucket, but making a
difference in the way that I can, as you had mentioned, erica, I
think, speaking up to therepresentatives, going
face-to-face, like you said, ordoing the town hall meetings.
I know my government officialshave had a lot of virtual town
hall meetings where you cansubmit a question ahead of time
(58:24):
or you can ask questions therewithin the forum.
I think that's also reallyimportant too.
So I'm really glad you broughtthat point up to see your
government representatives inany capacity that you're able to
, and let your voice be heard.
Speaker 2 (58:41):
Excellent, thank you, thank you so much, and I will
put all the stuff that we talkedabout in the notes as well.
Speaker 1 (58:50):
Hey, stay safe everyone and stay hydrated.
Speaker 2 (58:52):
Thank you for tuning in Hello everybody and thank you
(59:17):
again for listening.
This is just a reminder that nopart of this podcast can be
duplicated or copied withoutwritten consent from either
myself or Wendy.
Thank you again.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.