January 19, 2025 • 53 mins
Please welcome back Dr. Ericka Hendel as their input is incredibly valuable and profound.
This episode reveals the intersection of veterinary medicine and human rights, highlighting the struggles of students advocating for marginalized voices, particularly concerning Palestine. Panelists discuss issues of tokenization, selective empathy, and the moral responsibilities of veterinarians in confronting social injustices.
• Discussion on the responsibilities of veterinary professionals for animal and human rights
• Insights on student experiences with tokenization in education
• Examination of selective empathy within the veterinary community
• Personal accounts of student activism and the impacts of faculty hostility
• Calls for accountability from veterinary educators and institutions
• Reflection on the veterinary oath in the context of current events
• Emphasis on the need for a unified stance in advocating for all beings
Thank you for tuning in, and remember, advocacy starts with understanding.
Since we have recorded this episode, there has been a preliminary ceasefire agreement that has been signed that will go into effect on Sunday, January 19th. Although there is great celebration and joy for the hope for reprieve from the continuous and indiscriminate Israeli bombardment of Palestinian civilians, this is a precarious first step that is a bare minimum. Indeed shortly after the announcement, at least 12 Gazans were killed in an Israeli strike on a residential area in North Gaza, and additional strikes have continued. Israel killed a total of 82 Palestinians the day of the announcement. Even if a permanent ceasefire is negotiated after the second phase of this temporary ceasefire, there is no guarantee that desperately needed humanitarian aid blocked and restricted by Israel will be able to enter Gaza. An end to the genocide will only be possible with the end of the occupation, the blockade, of apartheid, and the ending of violations of Palestinian human rights and international law
It should also be noted that Tiktok was banned in the US within the same time as the ceasefire agreement. Although it was reactivated shortly after, it is important to note the importance of keeping Tiktok alive as many people in the US only found out about the genocide via Tiktok.
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Artwork and logo design by Misty Rae.
Special thanks to Joanna Roux for editing help.
Special thanks to the listeners and all the wonderful people who helped listen to and provide feedback on the episode's prerelease.
Please feel free to email Matt topics or suggestions, questions or feedback.
Matt@unitedstatesofPTSD.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
This podcast is not intended to serve as therapeutic
advice or to replace anyprofessional treatment.
These opinions belong to us anddo not reflect any company or
agency.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Hello everybody, this is Matt and welcome back to
another episode of the UnitedStates of PTSD.
I did want to do a littleapology because obviously with
the holidays I didn't dorecording for the last couple of
weeks and right now I am on myown as a solo person with Donna
as an occasional guest speaker,so might be a little bit of
delays between episodes until Iget a permanent co-host.
(00:49):
So I have an awesome personback with me today.
We have Dr Erica Handel back.
Thank you so much, erica, forbeing here.
Erica was on the episode we didabout veterinarian care and the
high rates of suicide withinthe veterinarian world or any
other world that deals withanimal work and we have a whole
bunch of speakers today.
I'm super happy about this.
(01:10):
We have a whole panel prettymuch here today.
I'm just going to, if you want,give you a minute to just do
like a quick introduction aboutwho you are and we can take it
from there.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Yeah, absolutely so.
I have some colleagues andfuture colleagues with here
today.
We're going to talk aboutPalestine and why it is so
important for veterinaryprofessionals and other people
working with animals tounderstand that they have a
larger role to play in advocacyand human rights organizing, and
(01:43):
we're going to hear from sometremendously talented
individuals who are doing work,and I am here as, like, a named
person.
Of course, we have to take inconsideration the safety and
well-being of organizers,especially in anti-genocide work
, because that does put targetson people, and so, therefore, I
(02:05):
am here as a person, openly,with my name and my reputation
within the veterinary industryand allyship and solidarity, to
say I am the name here and youcan trust me that the people who
are about to share with us arewho they say they are and that
the conditions are as such, andthis is an important reality
that we are facing that speakingup for the human rights of
(02:27):
Palestinians has consequencesand that there are people who
are targeted because of thisadvocacy.
And so I will hand off to alloweveryone to introduce
themselves.
And, yeah, and if you want toknow my name, you can Google me
and find out who I am.
(02:48):
All right, so I'm gonna hand itoff to our students, and we've
got E and S here with us, andhowever you two want to
introduce yourselves, please doso.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Hello everybody.
I am student S.
I am a senior veterinarystudent, very excited to
graduate and not be a studentanymore.
Yes, and I am a Muslim womanone of very few in our field and
I'm just so excited to be hereand talk to you guys and be in
such amazing company.
Speaker 4 (03:22):
Hi everyone.
I'm student E and I'm a secondyear veterinary student.
I'm still in the trenches ofdidactics, can't wait for
clinicals, but, yeah, I'm reallyexcited to be here.
I'm really happy and honored tobe able to speak about this,
something that I'm verypassionate about, and, yeah,
thank you.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
And then we also have Dr Q with us.
Dr Q and I do some organizingtogether and I can't wait to
have her talk about this.
Speaker 5 (03:50):
Hi everyone, Thank you for having me.
I'm Dr Q.
I am a veterinarian in the US,I'm Palestinian and I just
completed a residency.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
So happy to be here thank you all so much for being
here.
I have to say, erica, when youwere introducing yourself, the
irony behind you talking aboutbringing awareness to a genocide
will bring a target and put atarget on your back like hearing
that out loud.
Just the irony behind thattrying to stop people from being
killed that makes you a target.
It's just, it's so disturbing.
(04:22):
I also want to thank all, allof you for your work that you do
too, and as an educator, I knowbeing a student is really
difficult sometimes and I knowthe work that all of you do is
very intense work and laborintensive, and so it's.
I give you a lot of credit, sothank you I.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
I'm someone who really advocates strongly around
students and educationaljustice and the concept of power
dynamics.
So our students are the mostvulnerable population in our
industry and I've beenorganizing around this a long
time.
So, especially when there wasincreasing restrictions on
students around diversity,equity, inclusion efforts,
(05:02):
having BIPOC students that Ihave been working with and
supporting come to otherorganizations that I've worked
with and say there'sdiscrimination happening and we
can't even talk about it anymore.
Been happening, you know, overthe past couple of years.
And then, of course, thestudents have led calling out
what was happening, as they havein multiple movements.
So I really want to express toE&S about how proud I am of you
(05:27):
all and how devastated I am howlittle support you have received
from your own institution andhow much I hope that we can
change that.
So thank you.
Like this is real, like studentmovements are big deal.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
Yeah, they really are , and you guys have the energy
to do it.
I think the passion.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
I don't know how, oh my God.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
It's hard to keep those energy reserves, but I'm
glad that you do.
Now I know one of the topics wealso want to cover maybe we can
start off with that was thestudent tokenization that you
had brought up.
Stuck off with that was thestudent tokenization that you
had brought up and a studentasked you we talked about that
there's not a lot of Muslimwomen in veterinarian work, or
(06:13):
just not a lot of Muslims inveterinarian work.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
I wasn't sure which.
Yeah, I meant Muslims in general.
But within the United Statesit's this conversation that we
have in VetMed over and overagain, that it is, you know, one
of the whitest professions inour country, or the whitest
profession in our country, andwe discuss it ad nauseum,
basically how this is a problem,how it's impacting the care
that we deliver to ourcommunities.
(06:36):
And our schools will talk on andon about how they want to
recruit more diverse studentbodies, how DEI is really
important to them.
They do all of this and kind ofpat themselves on the back
whenever the statistics changeat all, without any
acknowledgement of theresponsibility that they have to
diverse student populations andstudents of color once they're
(06:59):
actually there at the school.
So it's hard not to feeltokenized when we've been
recruited, when pictures ofhijabi women or diverse groups
of students are on schoolwebsites, and then when we go to
our administrators and we say,hey, these faculty have targeted
us or hey, you're not lettingus communicate about things that
(07:21):
impact our communities, and wekind of get a shrug and say,
well, sorry, there's nothingthat we can do for you.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
When you were talking about being targeted.
What are some of the ways thatthat plays out?
Speaker 2 (07:32):
There have been quite a few incidents, especially
over the last year and a half oforganizing, that all of us here
on this panel have experienced.
One of the most egregiousevents that happened was last
year at a walkout for Palestine.
Several tenured faculty membersstaged a counter-protest and
(07:53):
screamed obscenities at studentsfor almost an hour, threatened
to record them, put it on socialmedia and after that event
those faculty members, as far aswe're aware, have not been
disciplined in any way.
Many of the studentsimmediately after the walkout
had to go to class with them.
Those faculty members weretrying to identify which
(08:14):
students were at the protest.
I don't know if either of theother two veterinarians or
students who are here want tochat about that a little bit
more and the impact that it'shad, but that was kind of one of
the big events where we wereshown that we are not taken care
of by our administration.
Speaker 4 (08:29):
Yeah, that's definitely like a big event.
That happened, for sure, and Ithink, just in general, there's
been a lot of instances ofrepression, whether it be
through, you know,communications within the school
and the ability to advertisecertain events.
Sometimes there are roadblocksthat are put in the way to
ensure that, you know, certainmessages can't be displayed,
such as Palestine, somethingthat makes people on campuses
(08:53):
feel uncomfortable about forsome reason that hopefully we'll
get into.
But, yeah, I think that that hasdefinitely been a roadblock in
the activism that I'veexperienced since I've been in
vet school and just likeactually getting the message out
there, and I think there isthis overall kind of atmosphere
of fear in the sense that whatcan happen because we're in
(09:14):
professional school at the endof the day, you know, we've been
working towards this career forour whole lives and most of the
people in this field, I'd liketo say, are incredibly
passionate and love what they do.
It's a scary thought to kind ofweigh like will my advocacy,
will me speaking up, possiblycause some sort of will this
take away that dream of mine?
And you know that's somethingreal that you know all of us
(09:37):
that engage in activism have tokind of engage with and talk to
about ourselves and with ourloved ones, and it's also
something that a passerby orstudent has to think about as
well, especially if you're in anenvironment where you already
see repression happening and youalready see that faculty have
no limits in what they'll do totheir own students.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
As an educator, it's really disturbing to hear that,
but I also know it's truebecause, as a student, the only
thing I can compare this to iswhen I was in graduate school
there was a faculty member thatwas sexually harassing me and it
was actually witnessed bymultiple students in the class.
I mean, people were complainingabout it.
When I brought it to thechairperson at the time it was
(10:19):
the final year of my graduateprogram, so literally it was the
last semester I was about tograduate year of my graduate
program.
So literally it was the lastsemester I was about to graduate
and I brought it to them in away that I was told was going to
be confidential, because I justreally wanted to know what my
options were.
So I said, hey, this is what'sgoing on, I'm really concerned
about it.
And they said, well, you shouldfile a complaint.
And I was like no, I don't knowif I comfortable with that
(10:39):
right now.
By the time I get home she hadcalled me up and said I made a
mistake.
Actually it's a mandatoryreport.
I messed up.
So I actually had to report itand I'm like, seriously, like
you showed me it wasconfidential number one.
And then how it played out was Iwas getting pressure from the
school to file a complaintbecause it wasn't the first time
that it happened.
But then, when I said, well, isthere any sort of protection
(11:01):
that I have that is going toensure that I'm not going to
suddenly fail like in the 11thhour and not graduate, the
school basically said, yeah, wecan't protect your grade.
I said, ok, so you can'tprotect my grade and you want me
to risk my entire career to dothis, but you're not willing to
put any support behind it.
And they said no.
So and of course, I couldn'texpect any of my students that
(11:21):
were in the class with me at thetime.
I couldn't expect them to puttheir grade on the line either.
So the amount of power that isthat prevents people from going
forward and making changes isreally it's huge.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
So I mean I can relate to it on that sense and
what that's like.
What you just mentioned aboutnot being able to rely on your
fellow students to also makethat sacrifice or take that risk
is something that has beenreally tough for us too, because
when we're met with the realitythat administration is not
going to take the risk ofdisciplining a tenured faculty
member, fellow faculty are notgoing to cause a problem, we
(11:58):
have to turn to our peers.
But that's it's like animpossible ask to turn to anyone
who is powerless like you andsay hey, I know it's really
scary to tell you that we needyour help to stand up for X, y,
z.
I can't guarantee that yourgrade won't be impacted.
I can't guarantee that youwon't get a letter of.
You know your letter ofrecommendations won't be
(12:19):
impacted.
You know vet med is a smallfield.
People know people.
You know vet med is a smallfield.
People know people and there'sno guarantee that if someone was
to speak up it wouldn't meanthat you know they're not going
to get a job later or word'sgoing to spread.
So, as tough as it is to notalways get support from our
peers, I can hardly blame themBecause really it should be
(12:41):
coming from people who actuallyhave some power and who are not
so vulnerable within our fieldno-transcript.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
This because, um, you were in a scenario leading some
organizing in residency program, which is one step further down
the commitment within thisindustry as far as, like,
financial, you know, andprofessional risks, and so, um,
because you are also it's, it'sanother form of student
(13:31):
education that is like in anentirely different place,
existence of residency andinterns of which have no support
structure within administrativespaces that are not heavily
influenced by office hospitalpolitics.
We'll say so if you wouldn'tmind, also kind of chiming in or
(13:52):
adding your thoughts to thispart of the discourse.
Speaker 5 (13:55):
Yeah, I was kind of in a like funny position because
I wasn't a student, like Ididn't have not that there's a
lot of benefits to being astudent, but didn't have those
and but I also wasn't a faculty,I was a temporary staff, not
even like a full staff member asa resident.
(14:16):
The reasons that we werediscussing for, like, my future
would my future be impacted if Ispoke out Like, would I be able
to find a job or am I going toget blacklisted, especially
because the veterinary world isso small and everybody knows
everybody, and so it put me in adifficult situation.
(14:38):
But but really, I mean I don'tknow what I would have done
without these wonderful studentsand like finding them gave me a
community and gave me hope andgave me restored a little bit of
faith in humanity, Because atfirst I felt very alone,
especially like I thought I wasthe only person who cared about
what was happening and the onlylike Palestinian voice there.
(15:01):
So, yeah, we don'tunderestimate the impact that
students can have.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
I want to take a moment especially to have a
specific call out.
Hey, if you're a veterinaryeducator who happens to be
listening to this podcast, thisis something that is very
important.
I spent several years withinthe context of a volunteer and
board member at Not One More Vetwhich I'm no longer affiliated
with, but over that timestudents, interns and resident
(15:32):
mental health was like one of myfocus areas and it is shocking
in support systems, intrauma-informed practices, in
the fact that we have facultymembers who verbally abuse
students without consequence andthis is our future right?
(15:53):
Students are our future and soif you have faculty members that
are tenured, who are verballyabusive to students and using
intimidative practices towardsstudents, we are actually
undermining the future of ourindustry.
So a very, very serious,pointed statement dedicated out
to the veterinary educatorsYou'll be hearing more from me.
(16:16):
Let's make this change.
Speaker 3 (16:18):
Great point, erica, and that actually kind of ties
into the second topic that wehad about the selective empathy
how we perceive that.
It's interesting when we'retalking about mental health, as
I talked about actually I thinkit was either on the last
episode or the episode before.
That was right after everythinghappened with luigi mangione,
and how you can see that that'sthe one thing that brings people
together, because everybodyrealizes how much the health
(16:40):
care system sucks and I just youknow, I had a conversation the
other day with a health carecompany about a client that I
have that is chronically, verychronically sick and needs
services, and every six monthsthey call and try to get him to
get kicked off.
And it's funny because this issomebody I've worked with for
years and this is somebody whothey've done a five minute
(17:01):
review and they're telling mewhat I should and shouldn't be
doing and I'm like, yeah, okay,yeah, you certainly clearly know
more than I do about thisperson in the five minute review
.
And they're telling me what Ishould and shouldn't be doing
and I'm like, yeah, okay, yeah,you certainly clearly know more
than I do about this person inthe five minute phone call, but
it sounds like it's the same inveterinary care and like pretty
much anything related to anysort of services where you're
helping people, where the peoplethat are there I think are
doing it for the right reasons,but the administrative and the
stuff that oversees it iscertainly not doing it for the
(17:24):
right reasons.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
I've been thinking about a lot of it and I think
about when we're talking aboutselective empathy and compassion
and kind of the limits of thehuman behavior, veterinary
professionals are very wellpositioned to try and expand
their thinking.
I think that this is somethingthat all of us are making, this
like ardent request to our fieldthat does serious advocacy
(17:48):
around mental health Okay cool,so you really care about mental
health of veterinaryprofessionals?
Guess what?
We have veterinaryprofessionals both within our
community, who are Palestinian,arab, muslim, who are deeply
impacted by this, and alsointernationally, our global
cohort and our colleagues inGaza who are, who are being
(18:10):
killed in horrific means, and sothis selective empathy and
compassion is definitelysomething that the students run
into, that Dr Hu has run into,that I have also, like,
experienced, although sometimesnot as directly, and so, yeah,
this, I think, the selectiveempathy and compassion, I think
is something that our otherpanelists have something really
(18:32):
important to say about how theyexperience the selective empathy
and compassion of our field andwhat it means to them.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
So, open, dr Q can I actually add to that too?
Because, to kind of go off whatErica was just saying, when I
heard you say that you feltalone, I mean one.
I'm sorry that you felt thatway, because nobody should feel
that way.
How does that relate to theselective empathy in terms of
what you were experiencing Among, like your colleagues?
Speaker 5 (19:04):
Yeah, so I guess the moment where I felt most alone
was when, first of all, therewas just like a lack of out,
that was a solidarity statementwith Israel.
And that's when I like that waslike a punch in the face,
(19:35):
because I was like, how is thispossible?
Like not only are thePalestinians not acknowledged or
mentioned, or you know what'shappening to Palestinians, and
and like and we're ignoringhistory.
But yeah, so when I saw that,that was a shock and I had like
(19:56):
a visceral reaction to it, I waslike is this, are we serious
right now?
Like we're healthcareprofessionals, this is a
veterinary school and we don't.
We obviously don't care about,or you know who sent the email
doesn't care about all ofhumanity the same way they don't
care about, or you know whosent the email doesn't care
about all of humanity the sameway they don't care about
Palestinians the way they careabout Israelis or Americans, so
that.
So that's where I felt mostalone and angry and I responded
(20:19):
to that and explained why it wasvery wrong and and the parts
that were ignored.
And then that's what connectedme with other people who felt
the same way.
But there is a very obviouslike different treatment of
people of my background andminority backgrounds.
Speaker 3 (20:37):
Have you noticed it?
Is it getting worse?
Is it getting better?
Is it not changing at all?
Speaker 5 (20:41):
I think these recent events have made it more obvious
, but it's always been there andit's something Erica and I
talked about this before butit's something that I noticed as
a vet student to almost 10years ago.
You know, something that I'vealways noticed like little, like
microaggressions, things thatpeople will say towards Muslims
(21:03):
or towards aboutbs or about themiddle east in general.
Speaker 3 (21:08):
so I think this these recent events have just brought
it out more, so I would sayit's getting worse dr q, do you
think that when we call thingsbecause I've questioned this
when we call something amicroaggression, I almost
sometimes wonder if thatminimizes the fact that it is
aggression?
It's almost like all aggressionis aggression right, like I
(21:30):
don't know.
What do you think of that?
Like, do you think it?
Speaker 5 (21:34):
Yeah, yeah, I can see that.
I guess the things that I'veheard, like I don't think people
are necessarily trying to beevil.
You know, I don't think theyhave bad intentions with what
they're saying, and maybe that's.
I don't know if that's thedifference between a
microaggression and aggression,but but it's things like like
(21:55):
they'll just throw something outthere, like, oh, we treated a
dog from one of those friendlycountries in the Middle East,
something like that.
Or like, oh, palestine is not areal country, is it so?
But yeah, no, I agree, it isaggression.
Speaker 3 (22:11):
I just recently started to question it because I
saw the same thing in trauma.
Erica, you were talking abouttrauma-informed care earlier and
a lot of times when people saythat now it's just such a
buzzword, I don't even believethem because it almost never
matches up with the way thatthey're practicing.
But I remember when it was kindof this like little T and big T
thing, so they would say likewell, people have like a little
trauma, they have like a bigtrauma.
But I think we know from theadverse childhood experiences
(22:33):
study and multiple other studiesthat traumas are traumas.
There is no like little trauma,there's no big trauma, like
it's all how the personexperiences it, right.
So I just thinkmicroaggressions, I think it's
ways people I don't know, I justthink it's used to minimize
that these are just aggressiveacts, right, like people
shouldn't be doing.
I had when I went to Italyrecently with a friend of mine
(22:57):
and he knows I am 100% againstgenocide, I support Palestine, I
boycott as many things as Ipossibly can.
I mean, I've been boycottingStarbucks for a very long time
now and he is fully aware ofthat.
He sent me a Christmas cardwith a gift card to Starbucks
and I can't help but think thatthat was blatant aggression,
(23:19):
because I mean, again, I've hadconversations with this person
multiple, multiple, multipletimes, but I just refuse to do
it.
I don't care if you paid for it, I'm still not using it.
Does it?
It doesn't matter.
But I think that that made mereally question the friendship
because I was like, really thatwas there's no way.
You're that stupid that youjust did that in a like dumb
moment.
I don't know you're.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
You're laughing at this in a way that makes me feel
like you've got something toadd to this um, student e and I
were just talking aboutmicroaggressions the other day
actually.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
um, it manifests in so many different ways and we
were talking about justexperiencing life as like a
brown person or a muslim personand you start to gaslight
yourself over, like, oh, thiswasn't a real thing, like they
didn't possibly mean it that way.
But the way you, after a certainpoint you kind of just have to
(24:13):
trust your gut and be like youknow what, if I get the feeling
that something isn't right here,something's not right here,
makes me think of what Dr Qmentioned earlier about like not
even acknowledging Palestinians.
And that was one of the bigproblems with that statement
that originally went out fromour administration was that they
couldn't and haven't even usedthe word Palestine, let alone
(24:35):
like put in any statement ofadvocacy.
And yet we were scrollingthrough old emails and when
things started to happen withRussia and Ukraine, it was
really really easy for them toname that and put out a
statement of solidarity.
So things like that that are, Iguess, technically
microaggressions.
Right that they didn't put theword Palestine in there.
(24:56):
Like it really it hurts, youknow.
It just makes you feel bad anduncomfortable in a way that's
really difficult to articulateto someone who hasn't
experienced it.
Speaker 5 (25:10):
I call that aggression.
Speaker 3 (25:13):
I'm sorry, dr Kidd.
What did you say?
Speaker 5 (25:15):
I was saying I would call it an aggression.
I agree with Matt.
Speaker 4 (25:21):
Call it aggression.
Yeah, I think there's aconversation to be had about you
know the labeling we use in thewords, the verbiage that we use
, if you will.
But when someone experiences amicroaggression if I were to
experience a microaggressionwhen I have, like the the
reaction is very visceral andit's very real.
Nothing about it feels micro.
So you know, I do wonder aboutthat verbiage.
(25:44):
But I wanted to address yourquestion you asked a little bit
earlier about how, if thingshave gotten a little bit better
in the space of you know peoplefeeling included in things like
that, and I think it's veryinteresting kind of following a
national, maybe international,trend of you know DEI work that
has made its way into veterinarymedicine as well and in some
(26:05):
ways I think it's an incrediblething and I think that
conversations need to be had andwork needs to be done regarding
DEI work.
But I think that there needs tobe a lot more work to be done
within DEI work and I think thatsometimes in my experience as
an activist specifically aboutPalestine and being a Muslim
American, I constantly findmyself questioning the validity
(26:29):
of the work being done becauseof the scope of power and
influence that people hired todo DEI work have, in seats of
administration, for example, orthe actual resources that are
being used to support studentsthat are BIPOC.
You know, black Indigenouspeople of color and I've
actually had a lot ofconversations with fellow VETS
(26:51):
students just about theirexperiences.
Because there is this problemthat we have identified
collectively us BIPOC folks, ifyou will where the AVMA, the
American Veterinary MedicalAssociation, and all the schools
are trying to encourage hiringand admission to BIPOC students,
(27:12):
but there doesn't seem to beany work being done to support
those students once they're inour institutions and workplaces.
No-transcript and incrediblydifficult workload that
(27:59):
veterinary students have to dealwith is suffocating sometimes.
Right, I personally, you know,moved away from home for the
first time and was dealing witha lot of homesickness and
removal from my community andthen two months later, october
7th, happened and as a Muslim,this personally affected me and
seeing statements like the onethat Dr Q mentioned was
(28:23):
definitely a punch to the gutand the lack of just naming it
as it is.
Till this day, you know, almosta year and a half later, it's
still kind of a punch in the gutand the ways that you know,
institutions kind of willrepress this kind of work and
this kind of advocacy is, youknow, something that veterinary
students that you know identifywith these kinds of struggles,
(28:46):
and it's not just Palestine.
You know there's so manydifferent things, especially
that this is an election cycle,you know a lot of feelings and a
lot of things are coming up fora lot of people and on top of
the already like very real workthat people have to do.
So it's there's a lot of workto be done.
Long story short, but I thinkthat I just wanted to kind of
talk about that, that the factthat DEI is being discussed so
(29:10):
much but there's just so muchstill to be done.
Speaker 3 (29:13):
Student E, do you think that it could also have
the opposite effect?
So if there's all this push forDEI and then the services are
not put in place and it doesbecome something that's just
about identity politics, that atthe end it can actually cause
more problems than were alreadythere, because I've seen that
play it out in different waystoo, where um standards have
(29:35):
changed for certain to likematch certain things, and that
becomes the reason for it, whichI then think just perpetuates
racism absolutely, I thinkthere's, there's so much.
Speaker 4 (29:49):
This could be its own episode, I'm sure, and and this
isn't just veteran medicine,but, um, there's, there's so
much to be said about boilingdown these issues to just, you
know, inviting people of thatethnicity or group into a space,
because if you're people aredoing so many real, like
historical issues, and to justhave them in in on a table to,
(30:12):
you know, discuss these thingsis, you know, it's very taxing,
it's very, very trialing.
Like you shouldn't expect tomake people, you know a
palestinian, talk aboutpalestine all day long, like
they're going to be very tiredat the end of the day and
they're already dealing with alot, as is.
And so, yeah, I think thatthere can be more harm than good
(30:38):
with this kind of work.
Only because if you're justinviting people in without
addressing, you know, rootproblems and I think that can
and it's funny because it'ssomething that we talk about in
our vet med curriculum right,like you don't want to treat
what you see on the surface, youneed to treat the root causes
of issues right from aphysiological medicine
standpoint, and so why aren't weapplying that same logic when
it comes to the people that aregoing to be practicing this
medicine.
Right like why aren't youdealing with the the very real
(31:01):
problems and offering support tothese people so that they can
be the best practitioners thatthey can be?
Speaker 3 (31:08):
Thank you.
Thank you for answering that.
I know it could be a verydifferent topic.
It's just there's so much kindof all wrapped into one that
it's hard to not talk aboutmultiple issues at the same time
.
But thank you, I reallyappreciate you answering that.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
Well, I think so.
As someone who's beennavigating or trying to figure
out how to pierce through themetricization, I don't know if
that's a really good word.
Whatever, however that wordmight be, the material way in
which, say, the workplace andeducational space speak, that
(31:42):
came with affirmative action.
Right, it was a legal framework.
Now, I think that whatveterinary medicine has fallen
into, like many organizationstrying to talk about equity, is
(32:05):
that the foundation of that, theprinciples are social justice
theory and, as a social science,as well as human rights right,
which brings us circles back toPalestine, right.
As far as you know, I went to.
Let's talk about AVMA for amoment.
Avma had, I think, maybe$200,000 fund that they
(32:32):
coordinated for animal healthcare in Ukraine.
To facilitate that, we've hadtwo AVMA conventions in which
Ukraine has had artworksponsoring and encouraging
people to facilitate that,sponsoring and encouraging
people to facilitate that andthe people working in direct
support of, for example, suelaanimal rescue it was which is an
(32:54):
animal rescue providing carefor animals in gaza who
currently, right now, are barelytrying, barely able to bring in
food right and the, the and theresources for animal care.
It's not being allowed.
(33:23):
In addition to that, we havethree veterinary medicine are
not able to like, talk about itspecifically and talk about it
without trying to say, oh well,you know, this is a, we are not
involved in politics.
Or like, oh, like, this is aand this is the thing that bipoc
veterinarians, veterinarianprofessionals, have been talking
about from the beginning, like,if you're saying it's politics,
(33:46):
well, guess what?
Like my body, my, myphysicality, everything about me
is political.
My life is political, not bychoice, right?
And so in some of these aspectsof these frustrations,
especially when we dip into ourethics as a profession, around
our veterinary oath, right, howfour BIPOC veterinary
professionals, since beforeOctober 7th, understood that the
(34:09):
actual material commitment tohuman rights is not one that
veterinary medicine is able towrap its head around, because
it's still focusing on thislegal and political framework to
talk about human rights.
And we keep on saying no, no,no, like yes with DEI, but
(34:30):
understand that that foundationis civil rights.
And if we talk about civilrights and human rights, guess
what Palestine is in that?
And that is like where myfrustration really resides,
especially considering all ofthe mental health, resilience
and these other things I'vespoken about this in other
places but saying that the verymental health tools with which
(34:52):
the veterinary profession istrying to hang their hat on to
say we're going to make adifference.
They come from BIPOC community.
They come from Palestinian andindigenous community.
These concepts of mental health, resilience and rebuilding
after a continuous violation,these come from the very
communities that are beingerased from the discussion and,
(35:13):
as a veterinarian, as part of myveterinary oath and they're
like I will now like get off ofmy sofa and be like let's talk
about, uh, moral duplicity, um,and the disappointment of
basically looking around andbeing like, hey, I thought we
took the same oath, where areyou?
That's been like the echoingthing of my like soapbox that I
(35:34):
was a student about to take theoath and I had seen my mentors
of people out in the fieldbehaving as you've had to
witness.
I would be having some feelings.
(35:55):
So, dr Q.
Speaker 5 (36:00):
Yeah, a hundred percent.
And just for anyone who doesn'tknow, I'm not going to read the
whole oath, but basically theoath that we take says that we
agreed to use our knowledge andskills not only for the
protection of animals but alsofor the protection of public
health, the promotion of publichealth, and so we made this
(36:22):
commitment to not only protectanimals but also people, and
we're not doing that, like weare failing to do that, by not
stopping what's happening inGaza, like it's a genocide.
And, just like Erica said, theAVMA and many veterinarians not
only have not spoken up about it, but have have shown support of
(36:45):
the genocide, and so it's, ofcourse, a huge disappointment.
And also the AVMA has receivedseveral letters from several
groups that have been a part of.
So it's not like we can't useignorance or lack of knowledge
as an excuse.
Everybody is very aware ofwhat's happening, and the only
(37:08):
explanation I have is thatpeople don't view us as human.
But even then, do you careabout, even if you just care
about, the animals in Palestine?
That's enough to do something,to speak up and to do something
and to stop what's happening,because it's our tax money that
is going to support, that'ssupporting the genocide, and
(37:32):
that's enough for us to beinvolved as healthcare
professionals.
Speaker 3 (37:35):
And it's a ridiculous amount of tax money too.
I mean it's absurd.
And to what both you and Ericasaid, when I hear people groups
like organizations saying wedon't get political, or when I
hear people saying that I justwant to like slap them and say
this is a genocide, you don'tget to be neutral.
Either you support it or youdon't, like you can't take a
(37:56):
neutral attitude towards it.
And it's infuriating because Ithink I probably have one or two
friends in my entire life thatI can talk to about the genocide
that's actually happening, thatcare and have done stuff Like
either they've contacted theirrepresentatives or their
senators who, in my state theydon't care.
In Rhode Island they don't carebecause they're very much in
(38:17):
the pocket of you know, otherpeople, as we all know.
It's incredibly frustrating andI have one Palestinian friend.
I call her every single day, wechat every single day, we do
voice messages back and forththroughout the day, and one of
the things that she told me wasreally disturbed me during the
election was she was part of a Idon't know if you recall like a
phone tree where they wouldlike reach out to registered
(38:39):
voters and get them to.
You know, like vote certain waysor just provide information
about what's going on and thiswas to a registered Democrat who
responded back to her somethingto the effect of that turned
Gaza into a parking lot.
And that's from a Democratright, not, I mean, in our head
we think Republicans say stufflike that, but it's really on
(39:01):
both sides of the spectrum.
And I know she responded backvery, very diplomatically Thank
you very much, I'm Palestinianand that really bothered me and
that was just kind of the end.
And I know she responded backvery, very, um, diplomatically
thank you very much, I'mpalestinian and that really
bothered me and that was justkind of the end of it, which was
way nicer than I would haveresponded I, I'm gonna hold my
like, learn very much as far asholding my, my range of which I
(39:23):
am storing for other places ofwhich I can release.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
But yeah, like circling back to this concept of
like an oath and what it means,and students that are about to
take an oath and are going to gothrough a little bit more
training before they take thatoath, like what do you have to
say?
Like what words can you expressto the students, the fields
about where you wouldaccountability for what you're
(39:55):
feeling now about that oath andwhat you've seen in our industry
, and like where you would hopeto see us get as an industry to
re-earn your, your trust thathas been, you know, violated us
as students I.
Speaker 2 (40:09):
I feel like for us as students, it's been, it's been
a huge blow to to the faith andeven sometimes the love that we
feel for the field to beconfronted with.
You know, as you put it, likethis hypocrisy or like moral
duplicity.
Daily for the last year and ahalf felt at that moment at the
(40:33):
walkout looking at a professorwho the day before had, with so
much kindness and compassion,shown me how to extract, you
know, dog's tooth for the firsttime.
And the next day he looked mein my eyes and he told me why
don't you go visit the hospitalsin gaza?
I hear they're underreconstruction right now because
they had all been bombed.
(40:55):
I will never forget that momentof being like this field maybe
is not what I thought it was andthat was for all of us that was
really heartbreaking, at leastfor me, who had never
experienced something to thatdegree personally.
I'm sure people like Dr Q, whohad been in organizing spaces
(41:15):
for a lot longer than me, havefelt something like that.
But to have come into thisprofession with so much love and
care as all of us do we allcome into this field for love
and to see people who areallegedly healthcare
professionals be so out of touchwith our oath.
It just made me feel like,looking at these people that are
(41:37):
my mentors and who are in aposition of power over me, and
to just think like do you and Ivalue life in the same way, for
you to think this way and behavethis way?
Just a roundabout way to saythat I know that we all entered
this field for a similar reasonto heal and because we see
(41:59):
suffering, and I wonder wherethe disconnect is, that people
see suffering in a place likePalestine and they brush it off
as well.
Things like that always happenthere.
Yeah, student E, I want to hearwhat you have to say about it
too.
Student E and I went throughall of this together.
Trauma bonded forever.
Speaker 4 (42:21):
Didactics right now and taking classes where we talk
about you know how to be betterdoctors, how to communicate
(42:41):
with clients well and how tostay aware.
You know what's been on my mindthe past year and a half has
been the fact that we're taughtto not shy away from difficult
topics and to always seekknowledge and gain awareness of
the world around you and yoursurroundings, because, at the
end of the day, you know a lotof something.
Veterinarians talk about a lot,or you know veterans in
training talk about a lot.
Is this idea that I hope thatmost of us have beef with the
(43:01):
whole phrase?
When someone asks you like whyyou want to be a vet and someone
responds because I hate people,you know that's.
That's simply not why we're inthis field and if you're in this
field for that reason, youmight be in the wrong field
because you're going to dealwith a lot of people.
And yeah, that's just been onmy mind so much because it kind
of goes into what we'rediscussing about this kind of
(43:21):
selective compassion.
You know, some people choose tojust focus on animal rights
issues and to just focus onanimals and kind of tunnel
vision in that regard, withoutunderstanding which is so
crucial to being a goodpractitioner one day and part of
your community is to understandthat there are people behind
these animals and those peoplehave stories and experiences and
(43:44):
they come from different partsof the world.
You never know when aPalestinian cat owner might walk
into your door.
You never know who will walkinto your clinic door, and it's
important for you, as aveterinarian or a faculty member
at an institution training thenext generation of veterinarians
or any field, really tounderstand the basic intricacies
(44:06):
excuse me and experiences thatmake up these people's lives,
because if you're missing thatcrucial component, can you
really say that you're showingup for those people?
Can you really say that you'reproviding care, and what quality
of care is that really?
Yeah, I just that's definitelybeen on my mind and I think that
, looking around at the studentsaround me and you know, faculty
(44:27):
members, especially on mypersonal campus, where all of
this really egregious stuff hashappened, right, the silence is
very deafening, right, thisreally egregious stuff has
happened.
Right, the silence is verydeafening, right, and we talked
a little bit earlier about how,on one hand, like me and student
S, we don't necessarily blamethe students for being so
fearful of speaking up becauseof the very real consequences
(44:47):
that could ensue and because ofthe you know the terrible things
that have been said, as studentS just talked about, you know
gave a direct quote, but me alsobeing in that position, right,
like, we're also in thatposition, we're also putting our
careers on the line.
We're also putting all thisstuff on the line.
And you know, this idea ofbravery has been on my mind
(45:08):
because, you know, I talk aboutit with my parents a lot, with
my trusted friends and advisorsand mentors.
You know people that reallyjust wanted to see me cross that
finish line because they knowhow hard I've worked to get here
really advised me to wait untilI get out, get my degree and I
get out there and then I can saywhatever I want and do whatever
I want and use that, thatwell-earned position of power
(45:30):
and privilege that I've earned,to make a difference.
But as I talk to people out inthe field and hearing what you
have to say, erica, as well, youknow, with your colleagues out
in the field, like I really dothink, like if you're waiting to
be brave once you're in a placeof power or money or position,
I don't think you're ever goingto be brave genuinely, because,
(45:52):
like I don't, I think people,you know they do this with their
own you know mental health,they do this their own kind of
like self awareness and a lot ofdifferent things.
But I think that we tellourselves, once I get to X place
, then I can do X thing, and Ithink that is a way for us to
hold ourselves back.
(46:12):
I think it's a way to inhibitchange, because if we're all
going to be saying that, thennot a lot's going to get done.
People that we look up to inhistory didn't take that
position at all.
The people that we honor, youknow whether it's MLK Jr or
anyone.
You know anyone's superheroes,you know, like they did not wait
for a certain scenario to bebrave, they just simply were
(46:35):
brave because that's somethingthey had to do.
And that is something that Iconstantly think about now and I
really urge anyone in anyprofession, but especially in
the veterinary profession, tounderstand that and to recognize
that there will always be theserisks, whatever position you
find yourself in, however muchmoney you're making.
I think that it's important tolook within yourself and to
(46:59):
really figure out where yourlines are and what's important
to you and what you stand for inthis field and think about that
oath you took and be brave anddo what is morally aligned,
because it's the only thing wecan do.
And people like me and StudentS, who are Muslim, and Dr Q, who
are Palestinian, take thesejourneys upon ourselves because
(47:24):
we feel like we have to.
It's almost like a survivabletactic for some of us, a coping
mechanism, if you will, and it'sreally hard to do the work
alone.
It's very upsetting to do thework alone and to make such a
big statement or to do somethingso drastic and to not find that
support behind you, becausethere is safety in that support
(47:44):
for the students that areputting themselves on the front
line, and so I just I would hopethat people listen to this in
general, kind of understand thatand really like internalize
that kind of understand that andreally like internalize that.
Speaker 3 (47:55):
Thank you so much.
That was well said for both ofyou, Student S, when you were
telling what that person said toyou the level of rage that that
person has to be experiencing,like rage and hate, because it's
such an awful, terrible, justmalicious thing to say.
Speaker 1 (48:14):
I think that to understand I mean, this has also
happened very prominently innursing as well Our colleagues
in human medicine and in mentalhealth spaces, both student and
professionals, have receivedlike this type of language which
is just like violent.
This is just violent languageand the concept that like for me
(48:43):
, I both like understand thisand don't understand this at the
same time.
But to say that a tenuredprofessor, a faculty position
who is being entrusted with thedevelopment of our future, of
our industry, that we are justlike okay with full-on
racialized violence goingunaddressed, is absolutely like
(49:05):
morally repugnant as far as I'mconcerned, and I am very, very
confused at how there existslike where there is not larger
outrage within the veterinaryprofession from people that have
(49:25):
power and influence to like goto their alma maters and be like
.
How dare you allow people whoare violent abuse our future?
That is the message that I havefor every single veterinary
education like education personwith influence.
(49:45):
How dare we, how dare we leaveour future to the machinations
of abusers like and um, uh, thisis this is like my first time
having getting to have the liveconversation with with student
ans um, and this is like theposition that I have taken in my
(50:08):
student advocacy because Iwitnessed that as a student.
I witnessed um sexualharassment, sexual abuse,
violent behavior towardsstudents, and I saw this
experience as a student that wasin the educational system, also
for a PhD.
So, like I really, reallyemphatically am trying to
(50:29):
communicate this to our largerprofession, that if we do not
address this, we lose the trustof our future, and that is
something that you know,veterinary medicine can do more
than we're allowing ourselves todo.
As far as stepping into a placeof courage and I've had the
(50:53):
privilege of working alongsidesome individuals within our
industry and affinityorganizations that are willing
to take a stance and still foundit insufficient.
And so I do have places.
I have been in places where Ihave been a visual reminder of
the existence of Palestinianlives, in spaces where people
(51:13):
have known that this is myposition, who say, well, I keep
doing what you're doing, right,please, encouraging me to
continue to move forward andbeing like thank you for doing
what you're doing, and beinglike I just can't because you
know, fill in the blank right,and the same thing as student E,
expressing that frustration tobe like yes, I want to, like,
(51:35):
you know, yes to your safety.
I appreciate that and also like, can you not recognize that by
just being like, oh, you'redoing a great job, keep on
taking the risk, like, keep onbeing on the front lines and
like taking those hits for us,bipoc veterinary professionals
are tapped out, we are burnedout and we are like burned to a
(51:56):
crisp and are like focusing onwhat we are focusing and we're
kind of pushing people to say,now, if you want to make this
industry better, you're going tohave to start doing putting
some skin in the game.
And so it is a call in Suni.
That was amazing and, of course, a complete example of why I
dedicate as much as I can tostudent advocacy as possible,
because y'all inspire me to bebetter every day and I learned
(52:19):
so much from you.
Speaker 3 (52:23):
I think all four of you are inspirational.
So, Erica, I would you know youare equally inspirational, so
don't forget that.
And I want to also parent whatyou said about what student he
was talking about.
It reminded me of something Isaw recently that said if you
ever wondered what you would doduring the Holocaust, you're
doing it right now.
Yeah, and I thought that was areally powerful statement
(52:44):
because it's true, Because youknow, the people who are most
vocal and are like here are allthe things I would have done are
the people who are sitting backand doing nothing.
Just because of the sheerlength of the episode and how
much we needed to discuss, theepisode has been cut into two
different parts.
So that was part one.
Tune in next week for part two,and thank you again for
listening.
This is just a reminder that nopart of this podcast can be
(53:34):
duplicated or copied withoutwritten consent from either
myself or Wendy.
Thank you again.
This podcast is not intended to serve as therapeutic
advice or to replace anyprofessional treatment.
These opinions belong to us anddo not reflect any company or
agency.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Hello everybody, this is Matt and welcome back to
another episode of the UnitedStates of PTSD.
I did want to do a littleapology because obviously with
the holidays I didn't dorecording for the last couple of
weeks and right now I am on myown as a solo person with Donna
as an occasional guest speaker,so might be a little bit of
delays between episodes until Iget a permanent co-host.
(00:49):
So I have an awesome personback with me today.
We have Dr Erica Handel back.
Thank you so much, erica, forbeing here.
Erica was on the episode we didabout veterinarian care and the
high rates of suicide withinthe veterinarian world or any
other world that deals withanimal work and we have a whole
bunch of speakers today.
I'm super happy about this.
(01:10):
We have a whole panel prettymuch here today.
I'm just going to, if you want,give you a minute to just do
like a quick introduction aboutwho you are and we can take it
from there.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Yeah, absolutely so.
I have some colleagues andfuture colleagues with here
today.
We're going to talk aboutPalestine and why it is so
important for veterinaryprofessionals and other people
working with animals tounderstand that they have a
larger role to play in advocacyand human rights organizing, and
(01:43):
we're going to hear from sometremendously talented
individuals who are doing work,and I am here as, like, a named
person.
Of course, we have to take inconsideration the safety and
well-being of organizers,especially in anti-genocide work
, because that does put targetson people, and so, therefore, I
(02:05):
am here as a person, openly,with my name and my reputation
within the veterinary industryand allyship and solidarity, to
say I am the name here and youcan trust me that the people who
are about to share with us arewho they say they are and that
the conditions are as such, andthis is an important reality
that we are facing that speakingup for the human rights of
(02:27):
Palestinians has consequencesand that there are people who
are targeted because of thisadvocacy.
And so I will hand off to alloweveryone to introduce
themselves.
And, yeah, and if you want toknow my name, you can Google me
and find out who I am.
(02:48):
All right, so I'm gonna hand itoff to our students, and we've
got E and S here with us, andhowever you two want to
introduce yourselves, please doso.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Hello everybody.
I am student S.
I am a senior veterinarystudent, very excited to
graduate and not be a studentanymore.
Yes, and I am a Muslim womanone of very few in our field and
I'm just so excited to be hereand talk to you guys and be in
such amazing company.
Speaker 4 (03:22):
Hi everyone.
I'm student E and I'm a secondyear veterinary student.
I'm still in the trenches ofdidactics, can't wait for
clinicals, but, yeah, I'm reallyexcited to be here.
I'm really happy and honored tobe able to speak about this,
something that I'm verypassionate about, and, yeah,
thank you.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
And then we also have Dr Q with us.
Dr Q and I do some organizingtogether and I can't wait to
have her talk about this.
Speaker 5 (03:50):
Hi everyone, Thank you for having me.
I'm Dr Q.
I am a veterinarian in the US,I'm Palestinian and I just
completed a residency.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
So happy to be here thank you all so much for being
here.
I have to say, erica, when youwere introducing yourself, the
irony behind you talking aboutbringing awareness to a genocide
will bring a target and put atarget on your back like hearing
that out loud.
Just the irony behind thattrying to stop people from being
killed that makes you a target.
It's just, it's so disturbing.
(04:22):
I also want to thank all, allof you for your work that you do
too, and as an educator, I knowbeing a student is really
difficult sometimes and I knowthe work that all of you do is
very intense work and laborintensive, and so it's.
I give you a lot of credit, sothank you I.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
I'm someone who really advocates strongly around
students and educationaljustice and the concept of power
dynamics.
So our students are the mostvulnerable population in our
industry and I've beenorganizing around this a long
time.
So, especially when there wasincreasing restrictions on
students around diversity,equity, inclusion efforts,
(05:02):
having BIPOC students that Ihave been working with and
supporting come to otherorganizations that I've worked
with and say there'sdiscrimination happening and we
can't even talk about it anymore.
Been happening, you know, overthe past couple of years.
And then, of course, thestudents have led calling out
what was happening, as they havein multiple movements.
So I really want to express toE&S about how proud I am of you
(05:27):
all and how devastated I am howlittle support you have received
from your own institution andhow much I hope that we can
change that.
So thank you.
Like this is real, like studentmovements are big deal.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
Yeah, they really are , and you guys have the energy
to do it.
I think the passion.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
I don't know how, oh my God.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
It's hard to keep those energy reserves, but I'm
glad that you do.
Now I know one of the topics wealso want to cover maybe we can
start off with that was thestudent tokenization that you
had brought up.
Stuck off with that was thestudent tokenization that you
had brought up and a studentasked you we talked about that
there's not a lot of Muslimwomen in veterinarian work, or
(06:13):
just not a lot of Muslims inveterinarian work.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
I wasn't sure which.
Yeah, I meant Muslims in general.
But within the United Statesit's this conversation that we
have in VetMed over and overagain, that it is, you know, one
of the whitest professions inour country, or the whitest
profession in our country, andwe discuss it ad nauseum,
basically how this is a problem,how it's impacting the care
that we deliver to ourcommunities.
(06:36):
And our schools will talk on andon about how they want to
recruit more diverse studentbodies, how DEI is really
important to them.
They do all of this and kind ofpat themselves on the back
whenever the statistics changeat all, without any
acknowledgement of theresponsibility that they have to
diverse student populations andstudents of color once they're
(06:59):
actually there at the school.
So it's hard not to feeltokenized when we've been
recruited, when pictures ofhijabi women or diverse groups
of students are on schoolwebsites, and then when we go to
our administrators and we say,hey, these faculty have targeted
us or hey, you're not lettingus communicate about things that
(07:21):
impact our communities, and wekind of get a shrug and say,
well, sorry, there's nothingthat we can do for you.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
When you were talking about being targeted.
What are some of the ways thatthat plays out?
Speaker 2 (07:32):
There have been quite a few incidents, especially
over the last year and a half oforganizing, that all of us here
on this panel have experienced.
One of the most egregiousevents that happened was last
year at a walkout for Palestine.
Several tenured faculty membersstaged a counter-protest and
(07:53):
screamed obscenities at studentsfor almost an hour, threatened
to record them, put it on socialmedia and after that event
those faculty members, as far aswe're aware, have not been
disciplined in any way.
Many of the studentsimmediately after the walkout
had to go to class with them.
Those faculty members weretrying to identify which
(08:14):
students were at the protest.
I don't know if either of theother two veterinarians or
students who are here want tochat about that a little bit
more and the impact that it'shad, but that was kind of one of
the big events where we wereshown that we are not taken care
of by our administration.
Speaker 4 (08:29):
Yeah, that's definitely like a big event.
That happened, for sure, and Ithink, just in general, there's
been a lot of instances ofrepression, whether it be
through, you know,communications within the school
and the ability to advertisecertain events.
Sometimes there are roadblocksthat are put in the way to
ensure that, you know, certainmessages can't be displayed,
such as Palestine, somethingthat makes people on campuses
(08:53):
feel uncomfortable about forsome reason that hopefully we'll
get into.
But, yeah, I think that that hasdefinitely been a roadblock in
the activism that I'veexperienced since I've been in
vet school and just likeactually getting the message out
there, and I think there isthis overall kind of atmosphere
of fear in the sense that whatcan happen because we're in
(09:14):
professional school at the endof the day, you know, we've been
working towards this career forour whole lives and most of the
people in this field, I'd liketo say, are incredibly
passionate and love what they do.
It's a scary thought to kind ofweigh like will my advocacy,
will me speaking up, possiblycause some sort of will this
take away that dream of mine?
And you know that's somethingreal that you know all of us
(09:37):
that engage in activism have tokind of engage with and talk to
about ourselves and with ourloved ones, and it's also
something that a passerby orstudent has to think about as
well, especially if you're in anenvironment where you already
see repression happening and youalready see that faculty have
no limits in what they'll do totheir own students.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
As an educator, it's really disturbing to hear that,
but I also know it's truebecause, as a student, the only
thing I can compare this to iswhen I was in graduate school
there was a faculty member thatwas sexually harassing me and it
was actually witnessed bymultiple students in the class.
I mean, people were complainingabout it.
When I brought it to thechairperson at the time it was
(10:19):
the final year of my graduateprogram, so literally it was the
last semester I was about tograduate year of my graduate
program.
So literally it was the lastsemester I was about to graduate
and I brought it to them in away that I was told was going to
be confidential, because I justreally wanted to know what my
options were.
So I said, hey, this is what'sgoing on, I'm really concerned
about it.
And they said, well, you shouldfile a complaint.
And I was like no, I don't knowif I comfortable with that
(10:39):
right now.
By the time I get home she hadcalled me up and said I made a
mistake.
Actually it's a mandatoryreport.
I messed up.
So I actually had to report itand I'm like, seriously, like
you showed me it wasconfidential number one.
And then how it played out was Iwas getting pressure from the
school to file a complaintbecause it wasn't the first time
that it happened.
But then, when I said, well, isthere any sort of protection
(11:01):
that I have that is going toensure that I'm not going to
suddenly fail like in the 11thhour and not graduate, the
school basically said, yeah, wecan't protect your grade.
I said, ok, so you can'tprotect my grade and you want me
to risk my entire career to dothis, but you're not willing to
put any support behind it.
And they said no.
So and of course, I couldn'texpect any of my students that
(11:21):
were in the class with me at thetime.
I couldn't expect them to puttheir grade on the line either.
So the amount of power that isthat prevents people from going
forward and making changes isreally it's huge.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
So I mean I can relate to it on that sense and
what that's like.
What you just mentioned aboutnot being able to rely on your
fellow students to also makethat sacrifice or take that risk
is something that has beenreally tough for us too, because
when we're met with the realitythat administration is not
going to take the risk ofdisciplining a tenured faculty
member, fellow faculty are notgoing to cause a problem, we
(11:58):
have to turn to our peers.
But that's it's like animpossible ask to turn to anyone
who is powerless like you andsay hey, I know it's really
scary to tell you that we needyour help to stand up for X, y,
z.
I can't guarantee that yourgrade won't be impacted.
I can't guarantee that youwon't get a letter of.
You know your letter ofrecommendations won't be
(12:19):
impacted.
You know vet med is a smallfield.
People know people.
You know vet med is a smallfield.
People know people and there'sno guarantee that if someone was
to speak up it wouldn't meanthat you know they're not going
to get a job later or word'sgoing to spread.
So, as tough as it is to notalways get support from our
peers, I can hardly blame themBecause really it should be
(12:41):
coming from people who actuallyhave some power and who are not
so vulnerable within our fieldno-transcript.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
This because, um, you were in a scenario leading some
organizing in residency program, which is one step further down
the commitment within thisindustry as far as, like,
financial, you know, andprofessional risks, and so, um,
because you are also it's, it'sanother form of student
(13:31):
education that is like in anentirely different place,
existence of residency andinterns of which have no support
structure within administrativespaces that are not heavily
influenced by office hospitalpolitics.
We'll say so if you wouldn'tmind, also kind of chiming in or
(13:52):
adding your thoughts to thispart of the discourse.
Speaker 5 (13:55):
Yeah, I was kind of in a like funny position because
I wasn't a student, like Ididn't have not that there's a
lot of benefits to being astudent, but didn't have those
and but I also wasn't a faculty,I was a temporary staff, not
even like a full staff member asa resident.
(14:16):
The reasons that we werediscussing for, like, my future
would my future be impacted if Ispoke out Like, would I be able
to find a job or am I going toget blacklisted, especially
because the veterinary world isso small and everybody knows
everybody, and so it put me in adifficult situation.
(14:38):
But but really, I mean I don'tknow what I would have done
without these wonderful studentsand like finding them gave me a
community and gave me hope andgave me restored a little bit of
faith in humanity, Because atfirst I felt very alone,
especially like I thought I wasthe only person who cared about
what was happening and the onlylike Palestinian voice there.
(15:01):
So, yeah, we don'tunderestimate the impact that
students can have.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
I want to take a moment especially to have a
specific call out.
Hey, if you're a veterinaryeducator who happens to be
listening to this podcast, thisis something that is very
important.
I spent several years withinthe context of a volunteer and
board member at Not One More Vetwhich I'm no longer affiliated
with, but over that timestudents, interns and resident
(15:32):
mental health was like one of myfocus areas and it is shocking
in support systems, intrauma-informed practices, in
the fact that we have facultymembers who verbally abuse
students without consequence andthis is our future right?
(15:53):
Students are our future and soif you have faculty members that
are tenured, who are verballyabusive to students and using
intimidative practices towardsstudents, we are actually
undermining the future of ourindustry.
So a very, very serious,pointed statement dedicated out
to the veterinary educatorsYou'll be hearing more from me.
(16:16):
Let's make this change.
Speaker 3 (16:18):
Great point, erica, and that actually kind of ties
into the second topic that wehad about the selective empathy
how we perceive that.
It's interesting when we'retalking about mental health, as
I talked about actually I thinkit was either on the last
episode or the episode before.
That was right after everythinghappened with luigi mangione,
and how you can see that that'sthe one thing that brings people
together, because everybodyrealizes how much the health
(16:40):
care system sucks and I just youknow, I had a conversation the
other day with a health carecompany about a client that I
have that is chronically, verychronically sick and needs
services, and every six monthsthey call and try to get him to
get kicked off.
And it's funny because this issomebody I've worked with for
years and this is somebody whothey've done a five minute
(17:01):
review and they're telling mewhat I should and shouldn't be
doing and I'm like, yeah, okay,yeah, you certainly clearly know
more than I do about thisperson in the five minute review
.
And they're telling me what Ishould and shouldn't be doing
and I'm like, yeah, okay, yeah,you certainly clearly know more
than I do about this person inthe five minute phone call, but
it sounds like it's the same inveterinary care and like pretty
much anything related to anysort of services where you're
helping people, where the peoplethat are there I think are
doing it for the right reasons,but the administrative and the
stuff that oversees it iscertainly not doing it for the
(17:24):
right reasons.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
I've been thinking about a lot of it and I think
about when we're talking aboutselective empathy and compassion
and kind of the limits of thehuman behavior, veterinary
professionals are very wellpositioned to try and expand
their thinking.
I think that this is somethingthat all of us are making, this
like ardent request to our fieldthat does serious advocacy
(17:48):
around mental health Okay cool,so you really care about mental
health of veterinaryprofessionals?
Guess what?
We have veterinaryprofessionals both within our
community, who are Palestinian,arab, muslim, who are deeply
impacted by this, and alsointernationally, our global
cohort and our colleagues inGaza who are, who are being
(18:10):
killed in horrific means, and sothis selective empathy and
compassion is definitelysomething that the students run
into, that Dr Hu has run into,that I have also, like,
experienced, although sometimesnot as directly, and so, yeah,
this, I think, the selectiveempathy and compassion, I think
is something that our otherpanelists have something really
(18:32):
important to say about how theyexperience the selective empathy
and compassion of our field andwhat it means to them.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
So, open, dr Q can I actually add to that too?
Because, to kind of go off whatErica was just saying, when I
heard you say that you feltalone, I mean one.
I'm sorry that you felt thatway, because nobody should feel
that way.
How does that relate to theselective empathy in terms of
what you were experiencing Among, like your colleagues?
Speaker 5 (19:04):
Yeah, so I guess the moment where I felt most alone
was when, first of all, therewas just like a lack of out,
that was a solidarity statementwith Israel.
And that's when I like that waslike a punch in the face,
(19:35):
because I was like, how is thispossible?
Like not only are thePalestinians not acknowledged or
mentioned, or you know what'shappening to Palestinians, and
and like and we're ignoringhistory.
But yeah, so when I saw that,that was a shock and I had like
(19:56):
a visceral reaction to it, I waslike is this, are we serious
right now?
Like we're healthcareprofessionals, this is a
veterinary school and we don't.
We obviously don't care about,or you know who sent the email
doesn't care about all ofhumanity the same way they don't
care about, or you know whosent the email doesn't care
about all of humanity the sameway they don't care about
Palestinians the way they careabout Israelis or Americans, so
that.
So that's where I felt mostalone and angry and I responded
(20:19):
to that and explained why it wasvery wrong and and the parts
that were ignored.
And then that's what connectedme with other people who felt
the same way.
But there is a very obviouslike different treatment of
people of my background andminority backgrounds.
Speaker 3 (20:37):
Have you noticed it?
Is it getting worse?
Is it getting better?
Is it not changing at all?
Speaker 5 (20:41):
I think these recent events have made it more obvious
, but it's always been there andit's something Erica and I
talked about this before butit's something that I noticed as
a vet student to almost 10years ago.
You know, something that I'vealways noticed like little, like
microaggressions, things thatpeople will say towards Muslims
(21:03):
or towards aboutbs or about themiddle east in general.
Speaker 3 (21:08):
so I think this these recent events have just brought
it out more, so I would sayit's getting worse dr q, do you
think that when we call thingsbecause I've questioned this
when we call something amicroaggression, I almost
sometimes wonder if thatminimizes the fact that it is
aggression?
It's almost like all aggressionis aggression right, like I
(21:30):
don't know.
What do you think of that?
Like, do you think it?
Speaker 5 (21:34):
Yeah, yeah, I can see that.
I guess the things that I'veheard, like I don't think people
are necessarily trying to beevil.
You know, I don't think theyhave bad intentions with what
they're saying, and maybe that's.
I don't know if that's thedifference between a
microaggression and aggression,but but it's things like like
(21:55):
they'll just throw something outthere, like, oh, we treated a
dog from one of those friendlycountries in the Middle East,
something like that.
Or like, oh, palestine is not areal country, is it so?
But yeah, no, I agree, it isaggression.
Speaker 3 (22:11):
I just recently started to question it because I
saw the same thing in trauma.
Erica, you were talking abouttrauma-informed care earlier and
a lot of times when people saythat now it's just such a
buzzword, I don't even believethem because it almost never
matches up with the way thatthey're practicing.
But I remember when it was kindof this like little T and big T
thing, so they would say likewell, people have like a little
trauma, they have like a bigtrauma.
But I think we know from theadverse childhood experiences
(22:33):
study and multiple other studiesthat traumas are traumas.
There is no like little trauma,there's no big trauma, like
it's all how the personexperiences it, right.
So I just thinkmicroaggressions, I think it's
ways people I don't know, I justthink it's used to minimize
that these are just aggressiveacts, right, like people
shouldn't be doing.
I had when I went to Italyrecently with a friend of mine
(22:57):
and he knows I am 100% againstgenocide, I support Palestine, I
boycott as many things as Ipossibly can.
I mean, I've been boycottingStarbucks for a very long time
now and he is fully aware ofthat.
He sent me a Christmas cardwith a gift card to Starbucks
and I can't help but think thatthat was blatant aggression,
(23:19):
because I mean, again, I've hadconversations with this person
multiple, multiple, multipletimes, but I just refuse to do
it.
I don't care if you paid for it, I'm still not using it.
Does it?
It doesn't matter.
But I think that that made mereally question the friendship
because I was like, really thatwas there's no way.
You're that stupid that youjust did that in a like dumb
moment.
I don't know you're.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
You're laughing at this in a way that makes me feel
like you've got something toadd to this um, student e and I
were just talking aboutmicroaggressions the other day
actually.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
um, it manifests in so many different ways and we
were talking about justexperiencing life as like a
brown person or a muslim personand you start to gaslight
yourself over, like, oh, thiswasn't a real thing, like they
didn't possibly mean it that way.
But the way you, after a certainpoint you kind of just have to
(24:13):
trust your gut and be like youknow what, if I get the feeling
that something isn't right here,something's not right here,
makes me think of what Dr Qmentioned earlier about like not
even acknowledging Palestinians.
And that was one of the bigproblems with that statement
that originally went out fromour administration was that they
couldn't and haven't even usedthe word Palestine, let alone
(24:35):
like put in any statement ofadvocacy.
And yet we were scrollingthrough old emails and when
things started to happen withRussia and Ukraine, it was
really really easy for them toname that and put out a
statement of solidarity.
So things like that that are, Iguess, technically
microaggressions.
Right that they didn't put theword Palestine in there.
(24:56):
Like it really it hurts, youknow.
It just makes you feel bad anduncomfortable in a way that's
really difficult to articulateto someone who hasn't
experienced it.
Speaker 5 (25:10):
I call that aggression.
Speaker 3 (25:13):
I'm sorry, dr Kidd.
What did you say?
Speaker 5 (25:15):
I was saying I would call it an aggression.
I agree with Matt.
Speaker 4 (25:21):
Call it aggression.
Yeah, I think there's aconversation to be had about you
know the labeling we use in thewords, the verbiage that we use
, if you will.
But when someone experiences amicroaggression if I were to
experience a microaggressionwhen I have, like the the
reaction is very visceral andit's very real.
Nothing about it feels micro.
So you know, I do wonder aboutthat verbiage.
(25:44):
But I wanted to address yourquestion you asked a little bit
earlier about how, if thingshave gotten a little bit better
in the space of you know peoplefeeling included in things like
that, and I think it's veryinteresting kind of following a
national, maybe international,trend of you know DEI work that
has made its way into veterinarymedicine as well and in some
(26:05):
ways I think it's an incrediblething and I think that
conversations need to be had andwork needs to be done regarding
DEI work.
But I think that there needs tobe a lot more work to be done
within DEI work and I think thatsometimes in my experience as
an activist specifically aboutPalestine and being a Muslim
American, I constantly findmyself questioning the validity
(26:29):
of the work being done becauseof the scope of power and
influence that people hired todo DEI work have, in seats of
administration, for example, orthe actual resources that are
being used to support studentsthat are BIPOC.
You know, black Indigenouspeople of color and I've
actually had a lot ofconversations with fellow VETS
(26:51):
students just about theirexperiences.
Because there is this problemthat we have identified
collectively us BIPOC folks, ifyou will where the AVMA, the
American Veterinary MedicalAssociation, and all the schools
are trying to encourage hiringand admission to BIPOC students,
(27:12):
but there doesn't seem to beany work being done to support
those students once they're inour institutions and workplaces.
No-transcript and incrediblydifficult workload that
(27:59):
veterinary students have to dealwith is suffocating sometimes.
Right, I personally, you know,moved away from home for the
first time and was dealing witha lot of homesickness and
removal from my community andthen two months later, october
7th, happened and as a Muslim,this personally affected me and
seeing statements like the onethat Dr Q mentioned was
(28:23):
definitely a punch to the gutand the lack of just naming it
as it is.
Till this day, you know, almosta year and a half later, it's
still kind of a punch in the gutand the ways that you know,
institutions kind of willrepress this kind of work and
this kind of advocacy is, youknow, something that veterinary
students that you know identifywith these kinds of struggles,
(28:46):
and it's not just Palestine.
You know there's so manydifferent things, especially
that this is an election cycle,you know a lot of feelings and a
lot of things are coming up fora lot of people and on top of
the already like very real workthat people have to do.
So it's there's a lot of workto be done.
Long story short, but I thinkthat I just wanted to kind of
talk about that, that the factthat DEI is being discussed so
(29:10):
much but there's just so muchstill to be done.
Speaker 3 (29:13):
Student E, do you think that it could also have
the opposite effect?
So if there's all this push forDEI and then the services are
not put in place and it doesbecome something that's just
about identity politics, that atthe end it can actually cause
more problems than were alreadythere, because I've seen that
play it out in different waystoo, where um standards have
(29:35):
changed for certain to likematch certain things, and that
becomes the reason for it, whichI then think just perpetuates
racism absolutely, I thinkthere's, there's so much.
Speaker 4 (29:49):
This could be its own episode, I'm sure, and and this
isn't just veteran medicine,but, um, there's, there's so
much to be said about boilingdown these issues to just, you
know, inviting people of thatethnicity or group into a space,
because if you're people aredoing so many real, like
historical issues, and to justhave them in in on a table to,
(30:12):
you know, discuss these thingsis, you know, it's very taxing,
it's very, very trialing.
Like you shouldn't expect tomake people, you know a
palestinian, talk aboutpalestine all day long, like
they're going to be very tiredat the end of the day and
they're already dealing with alot, as is.
And so, yeah, I think thatthere can be more harm than good
(30:38):
with this kind of work.
Only because if you're justinviting people in without
addressing, you know, rootproblems and I think that can
and it's funny because it'ssomething that we talk about in
our vet med curriculum right,like you don't want to treat
what you see on the surface, youneed to treat the root causes
of issues right from aphysiological medicine
standpoint, and so why aren't weapplying that same logic when
it comes to the people that aregoing to be practicing this
medicine.
Right like why aren't youdealing with the the very real
(31:01):
problems and offering support tothese people so that they can
be the best practitioners thatthey can be?
Speaker 3 (31:08):
Thank you.
Thank you for answering that.
I know it could be a verydifferent topic.
It's just there's so much kindof all wrapped into one that
it's hard to not talk aboutmultiple issues at the same time
.
But thank you, I reallyappreciate you answering that.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
Well, I think so.
As someone who's beennavigating or trying to figure
out how to pierce through themetricization, I don't know if
that's a really good word.
Whatever, however that wordmight be, the material way in
which, say, the workplace andeducational space speak, that
(31:42):
came with affirmative action.
Right, it was a legal framework.
Now, I think that whatveterinary medicine has fallen
into, like many organizationstrying to talk about equity, is
(32:05):
that the foundation of that, theprinciples are social justice
theory and, as a social science,as well as human rights right,
which brings us circles back toPalestine, right.
As far as you know, I went to.
Let's talk about AVMA for amoment.
Avma had, I think, maybe$200,000 fund that they
(32:32):
coordinated for animal healthcare in Ukraine.
To facilitate that, we've hadtwo AVMA conventions in which
Ukraine has had artworksponsoring and encouraging
people to facilitate that,sponsoring and encouraging
people to facilitate that andthe people working in direct
support of, for example, suelaanimal rescue it was which is an
(32:54):
animal rescue providing carefor animals in gaza who
currently, right now, are barelytrying, barely able to bring in
food right and the, the and theresources for animal care.
It's not being allowed.
(33:23):
In addition to that, we havethree veterinary medicine are
not able to like, talk about itspecifically and talk about it
without trying to say, oh well,you know, this is a, we are not
involved in politics.
Or like, oh, like, this is aand this is the thing that bipoc
veterinarians, veterinarianprofessionals, have been talking
about from the beginning, like,if you're saying it's politics,
(33:46):
well, guess what?
Like my body, my, myphysicality, everything about me
is political.
My life is political, not bychoice, right?
And so in some of these aspectsof these frustrations,
especially when we dip into ourethics as a profession, around
our veterinary oath, right, howfour BIPOC veterinary
professionals, since beforeOctober 7th, understood that the
(34:09):
actual material commitment tohuman rights is not one that
veterinary medicine is able towrap its head around, because
it's still focusing on thislegal and political framework to
talk about human rights.
And we keep on saying no, no,no, like yes with DEI, but
(34:30):
understand that that foundationis civil rights.
And if we talk about civilrights and human rights, guess
what Palestine is in that?
And that is like where myfrustration really resides,
especially considering all ofthe mental health, resilience
and these other things I'vespoken about this in other
places but saying that the verymental health tools with which
(34:52):
the veterinary profession istrying to hang their hat on to
say we're going to make adifference.
They come from BIPOC community.
They come from Palestinian andindigenous community.
These concepts of mental health, resilience and rebuilding
after a continuous violation,these come from the very
communities that are beingerased from the discussion and,
(35:13):
as a veterinarian, as part of myveterinary oath and they're
like I will now like get off ofmy sofa and be like let's talk
about, uh, moral duplicity, um,and the disappointment of
basically looking around andbeing like, hey, I thought we
took the same oath, where areyou?
That's been like the echoingthing of my like soapbox that I
(35:34):
was a student about to take theoath and I had seen my mentors
of people out in the fieldbehaving as you've had to
witness.
I would be having some feelings.
(35:55):
So, dr Q.
Speaker 5 (36:00):
Yeah, a hundred percent.
And just for anyone who doesn'tknow, I'm not going to read the
whole oath, but basically theoath that we take says that we
agreed to use our knowledge andskills not only for the
protection of animals but alsofor the protection of public
health, the promotion of publichealth, and so we made this
(36:22):
commitment to not only protectanimals but also people, and
we're not doing that, like weare failing to do that, by not
stopping what's happening inGaza, like it's a genocide.
And, just like Erica said, theAVMA and many veterinarians not
only have not spoken up about it, but have have shown support of
(36:45):
the genocide, and so it's, ofcourse, a huge disappointment.
And also the AVMA has receivedseveral letters from several
groups that have been a part of.
So it's not like we can't useignorance or lack of knowledge
as an excuse.
Everybody is very aware ofwhat's happening, and the only
(37:08):
explanation I have is thatpeople don't view us as human.
But even then, do you careabout, even if you just care
about, the animals in Palestine?
That's enough to do something,to speak up and to do something
and to stop what's happening,because it's our tax money that
is going to support, that'ssupporting the genocide, and
(37:32):
that's enough for us to beinvolved as healthcare
professionals.
Speaker 3 (37:35):
And it's a ridiculous amount of tax money too.
I mean it's absurd.
And to what both you and Ericasaid, when I hear people groups
like organizations saying wedon't get political, or when I
hear people saying that I justwant to like slap them and say
this is a genocide, you don'tget to be neutral.
Either you support it or youdon't, like you can't take a
(37:56):
neutral attitude towards it.
And it's infuriating because Ithink I probably have one or two
friends in my entire life thatI can talk to about the genocide
that's actually happening, thatcare and have done stuff Like
either they've contacted theirrepresentatives or their
senators who, in my state theydon't care.
In Rhode Island they don't carebecause they're very much in
(38:17):
the pocket of you know, otherpeople, as we all know.
It's incredibly frustrating andI have one Palestinian friend.
I call her every single day, wechat every single day, we do
voice messages back and forththroughout the day, and one of
the things that she told me wasreally disturbed me during the
election was she was part of a Idon't know if you recall like a
phone tree where they wouldlike reach out to registered
(38:39):
voters and get them to.
You know, like vote certain waysor just provide information
about what's going on and thiswas to a registered Democrat who
responded back to her somethingto the effect of that turned
Gaza into a parking lot.
And that's from a Democratright, not, I mean, in our head
we think Republicans say stufflike that, but it's really on
(39:01):
both sides of the spectrum.
And I know she responded backvery, very diplomatically Thank
you very much, I'm Palestinianand that really bothered me and
that was just kind of the end.
And I know she responded backvery, very, um, diplomatically
thank you very much, I'mpalestinian and that really
bothered me and that was justkind of the end of it, which was
way nicer than I would haveresponded I, I'm gonna hold my
like, learn very much as far asholding my, my range of which I
(39:23):
am storing for other places ofwhich I can release.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
But yeah, like circling back to this concept of
like an oath and what it means,and students that are about to
take an oath and are going to gothrough a little bit more
training before they take thatoath, like what do you have to
say?
Like what words can you expressto the students, the fields
about where you wouldaccountability for what you're
(39:55):
feeling now about that oath andwhat you've seen in our industry
, and like where you would hopeto see us get as an industry to
re-earn your, your trust thathas been, you know, violated us
as students I.
Speaker 2 (40:09):
I feel like for us as students, it's been, it's been
a huge blow to to the faith andeven sometimes the love that we
feel for the field to beconfronted with.
You know, as you put it, likethis hypocrisy or like moral
duplicity.
Daily for the last year and ahalf felt at that moment at the
(40:33):
walkout looking at a professorwho the day before had, with so
much kindness and compassion,shown me how to extract, you
know, dog's tooth for the firsttime.
And the next day he looked mein my eyes and he told me why
don't you go visit the hospitalsin gaza?
I hear they're underreconstruction right now because
they had all been bombed.
(40:55):
I will never forget that momentof being like this field maybe
is not what I thought it was andthat was for all of us that was
really heartbreaking, at leastfor me, who had never
experienced something to thatdegree personally.
I'm sure people like Dr Q, whohad been in organizing spaces
(41:15):
for a lot longer than me, havefelt something like that.
But to have come into thisprofession with so much love and
care as all of us do we allcome into this field for love
and to see people who areallegedly healthcare
professionals be so out of touchwith our oath.
It just made me feel like,looking at these people that are
(41:37):
my mentors and who are in aposition of power over me, and
to just think like do you and Ivalue life in the same way, for
you to think this way and behavethis way?
Just a roundabout way to saythat I know that we all entered
this field for a similar reasonto heal and because we see
(41:59):
suffering, and I wonder wherethe disconnect is, that people
see suffering in a place likePalestine and they brush it off
as well.
Things like that always happenthere.
Yeah, student E, I want to hearwhat you have to say about it
too.
Student E and I went throughall of this together.
Trauma bonded forever.
Speaker 4 (42:21):
Didactics right now and taking classes where we talk
about you know how to be betterdoctors, how to communicate
(42:41):
with clients well and how tostay aware.
You know what's been on my mindthe past year and a half has
been the fact that we're taughtto not shy away from difficult
topics and to always seekknowledge and gain awareness of
the world around you and yoursurroundings, because, at the
end of the day, you know a lotof something.
Veterinarians talk about a lot,or you know veterans in
training talk about a lot.
Is this idea that I hope thatmost of us have beef with the
(43:01):
whole phrase?
When someone asks you like whyyou want to be a vet and someone
responds because I hate people,you know that's.
That's simply not why we're inthis field and if you're in this
field for that reason, youmight be in the wrong field
because you're going to dealwith a lot of people.
And yeah, that's just been onmy mind so much because it kind
of goes into what we'rediscussing about this kind of
(43:21):
selective compassion.
You know, some people choose tojust focus on animal rights
issues and to just focus onanimals and kind of tunnel
vision in that regard, withoutunderstanding which is so
crucial to being a goodpractitioner one day and part of
your community is to understandthat there are people behind
these animals and those peoplehave stories and experiences and
(43:44):
they come from different partsof the world.
You never know when aPalestinian cat owner might walk
into your door.
You never know who will walkinto your clinic door, and it's
important for you, as aveterinarian or a faculty member
at an institution training thenext generation of veterinarians
or any field, really tounderstand the basic intricacies
(44:06):
excuse me and experiences thatmake up these people's lives,
because if you're missing thatcrucial component, can you
really say that you're showingup for those people?
Can you really say that you'reproviding care, and what quality
of care is that really?
Yeah, I just that's definitelybeen on my mind and I think that
, looking around at the studentsaround me and you know, faculty
(44:27):
members, especially on mypersonal campus, where all of
this really egregious stuff hashappened, right, the silence is
very deafening, right, thisreally egregious stuff has
happened.
Right, the silence is verydeafening, right, and we talked
a little bit earlier about how,on one hand, like me and student
S, we don't necessarily blamethe students for being so
fearful of speaking up becauseof the very real consequences
(44:47):
that could ensue and because ofthe you know the terrible things
that have been said, as studentS just talked about, you know
gave a direct quote, but me alsobeing in that position, right,
like, we're also in thatposition, we're also putting our
careers on the line.
We're also putting all thisstuff on the line.
And you know, this idea ofbravery has been on my mind
(45:08):
because, you know, I talk aboutit with my parents a lot, with
my trusted friends and advisorsand mentors.
You know people that reallyjust wanted to see me cross that
finish line because they knowhow hard I've worked to get here
really advised me to wait untilI get out, get my degree and I
get out there and then I can saywhatever I want and do whatever
I want and use that, thatwell-earned position of power
(45:30):
and privilege that I've earned,to make a difference.
But as I talk to people out inthe field and hearing what you
have to say, erica, as well, youknow, with your colleagues out
in the field, like I really dothink, like if you're waiting to
be brave once you're in a placeof power or money or position,
I don't think you're ever goingto be brave genuinely, because,
(45:52):
like I don't, I think people,you know they do this with their
own you know mental health,they do this their own kind of
like self awareness and a lot ofdifferent things.
But I think that we tellourselves, once I get to X place
, then I can do X thing, and Ithink that is a way for us to
hold ourselves back.
(46:12):
I think it's a way to inhibitchange, because if we're all
going to be saying that, thennot a lot's going to get done.
People that we look up to inhistory didn't take that
position at all.
The people that we honor, youknow whether it's MLK Jr or
anyone.
You know anyone's superheroes,you know, like they did not wait
for a certain scenario to bebrave, they just simply were
(46:35):
brave because that's somethingthey had to do.
And that is something that Iconstantly think about now and I
really urge anyone in anyprofession, but especially in
the veterinary profession, tounderstand that and to recognize
that there will always be theserisks, whatever position you
find yourself in, however muchmoney you're making.
I think that it's important tolook within yourself and to
(46:59):
really figure out where yourlines are and what's important
to you and what you stand for inthis field and think about that
oath you took and be brave anddo what is morally aligned,
because it's the only thing wecan do.
And people like me and StudentS, who are Muslim, and Dr Q, who
are Palestinian, take thesejourneys upon ourselves because
(47:24):
we feel like we have to.
It's almost like a survivabletactic for some of us, a coping
mechanism, if you will, and it'sreally hard to do the work
alone.
It's very upsetting to do thework alone and to make such a
big statement or to do somethingso drastic and to not find that
support behind you, becausethere is safety in that support
(47:44):
for the students that areputting themselves on the front
line, and so I just I would hopethat people listen to this in
general, kind of understand thatand really like internalize
that kind of understand that andreally like internalize that.
Speaker 3 (47:55):
Thank you so much.
That was well said for both ofyou, Student S, when you were
telling what that person said toyou the level of rage that that
person has to be experiencing,like rage and hate, because it's
such an awful, terrible, justmalicious thing to say.
Speaker 1 (48:14):
I think that to understand I mean, this has also
happened very prominently innursing as well Our colleagues
in human medicine and in mentalhealth spaces, both student and
professionals, have receivedlike this type of language which
is just like violent.
This is just violent languageand the concept that like for me
(48:43):
, I both like understand thisand don't understand this at the
same time.
But to say that a tenuredprofessor, a faculty position
who is being entrusted with thedevelopment of our future, of
our industry, that we are justlike okay with full-on
racialized violence goingunaddressed, is absolutely like
(49:05):
morally repugnant as far as I'mconcerned, and I am very, very
confused at how there existslike where there is not larger
outrage within the veterinaryprofession from people that have
(49:25):
power and influence to like goto their alma maters and be like
.
How dare you allow people whoare violent abuse our future?
That is the message that I havefor every single veterinary
education like education personwith influence.
(49:45):
How dare we, how dare we leaveour future to the machinations
of abusers like and um, uh, thisis this is like my first time
having getting to have the liveconversation with with student
ans um, and this is like theposition that I have taken in my
(50:08):
student advocacy because Iwitnessed that as a student.
I witnessed um sexualharassment, sexual abuse,
violent behavior towardsstudents, and I saw this
experience as a student that wasin the educational system, also
for a PhD.
So, like I really, reallyemphatically am trying to
(50:29):
communicate this to our largerprofession, that if we do not
address this, we lose the trustof our future, and that is
something that you know,veterinary medicine can do more
than we're allowing ourselves todo.
As far as stepping into a placeof courage and I've had the
(50:53):
privilege of working alongsidesome individuals within our
industry and affinityorganizations that are willing
to take a stance and still foundit insufficient.
And so I do have places.
I have been in places where Ihave been a visual reminder of
the existence of Palestinianlives, in spaces where people
(51:13):
have known that this is myposition, who say, well, I keep
doing what you're doing, right,please, encouraging me to
continue to move forward andbeing like thank you for doing
what you're doing, and beinglike I just can't because you
know, fill in the blank right,and the same thing as student E,
expressing that frustration tobe like yes, I want to, like,
(51:35):
you know, yes to your safety.
I appreciate that and also like, can you not recognize that by
just being like, oh, you'redoing a great job, keep on
taking the risk, like, keep onbeing on the front lines and
like taking those hits for us,bipoc veterinary professionals
are tapped out, we are burnedout and we are like burned to a
(51:56):
crisp and are like focusing onwhat we are focusing and we're
kind of pushing people to say,now, if you want to make this
industry better, you're going tohave to start doing putting
some skin in the game.
And so it is a call in Suni.
That was amazing and, of course, a complete example of why I
dedicate as much as I can tostudent advocacy as possible,
because y'all inspire me to bebetter every day and I learned
(52:19):
so much from you.
Speaker 3 (52:23):
I think all four of you are inspirational.
So, Erica, I would you know youare equally inspirational, so
don't forget that.
And I want to also parent whatyou said about what student he
was talking about.
It reminded me of something Isaw recently that said if you
ever wondered what you would doduring the Holocaust, you're
doing it right now.
Yeah, and I thought that was areally powerful statement
(52:44):
because it's true, Because youknow, the people who are most
vocal and are like here are allthe things I would have done are
the people who are sitting backand doing nothing.
Just because of the sheerlength of the episode and how
much we needed to discuss, theepisode has been cut into two
different parts.
So that was part one.
Tune in next week for part two,and thank you again for
listening.
This is just a reminder that nopart of this podcast can be
(53:34):
duplicated or copied withoutwritten consent from either
myself or Wendy.
Thank you again.
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