Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:15):
This podcast is not
intended to serve as therapeutic
advice or to replace anyprofessional treatment.
These opinions belong to us anddo not reflect any company or
agency.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
Hello everybody and
welcome back to another episode
of the United States of PTSD.
This is a part two to theepisode we did two weeks ago and
it will be picking up rightfrom where we left off.
Thank you again for tuning in.
Speaker 4 (00:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
I think all four of
you are inspirational.
So, erica, I would you know youare equally inspirational, so
don't forget that.
And I want to also parent whatyou said about what student he
was talking about.
It reminded me of something Isaw recently that said if you
ever wondered what you would doduring the Holocaust, you're
doing it right now.
Yeah, and I thought that was areally powerful statement
(01:04):
because it's true, because thepeople who are most vocal and
are like here are all the thingsI would have done are the
people who are sitting back anddoing nothing.
And with student S, to go backto that egregious, awful
statement, I mean, it's justwhen you talk about the moral
duplicity that you brought upearlier, erica.
So here you have somebody whotakes an oath and says that
they're going to help bothpeople and animals and then
(01:27):
threatens somebody in a in ajust a disgusting way.
Like how did those two thingscoexist?
Like how can you claim to beupholding an oath and be all
about humanity but then makesuch a blatantly threatening
statement?
I don't get that.
I really a student studentasked I don't even know how you
(01:47):
look at that person, becausethat is like I don't know how
you have a lot of respect foryou.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
I I really I
appreciate that erica phrased it
as a violent act because Ithink in that moment, when all
that was happening to us, it wasshocked.
It was so shocking that wecouldn't process what had really
happened and that was,amazingly.
That was actually not the worstthing.
That was said to us by atenured faculty member on that
(02:15):
day.
Another faculty member told usthat if we were in Palestine,
hamas would rape and kill us.
Other faculty told us that youknow, women couldn't even be
doctors in Palestine, so youknow we wouldn't even exist as
female vet students.
That's not true, yeah.
Yeah, taking a stamp to be like.
(02:36):
It's not true, guys, just incase you didn't know.
But it's the fact that thesefaculty members who behaved in
such a disturbing and violentmanner towards students who
truly have no power against them, and over a year later they
(02:57):
continue to harass andintimidate.
They claim repeatedly that wewere lying about what happened
on that day, even thoughadministrators, including the
dean, walked past that event,saw it happen.
It's not a rumor, it happened,everyone saw it.
And yet we're being gaslit thateither it's like that thing, or
(03:19):
either it didn't happen, or, ifit did happen, it's not as bad
as you said it was, or whatever,whatever it didn't happen, or
if it didn't happen, it's not asbad as you said it was, or
whatever, whatever.
Um, it just goes back to what wewere talking about earlier,
that if you're going to recruitall these diverse students and
then put them in an environmentwhere they're actually not even
just not supported but not safelike really and truly not safe
(03:44):
how is our profession ever goingto get anywhere?
We talk a lot.
I've heard a lot aboutconversations about cultural
competence within our profession, which can often manifest in
like rattling off facts aboutdifferent cultures and how you
can use those when you'reinteracting with clients of
different backgrounds.
But the reality of it is, ifour profession is going to
(04:07):
continue to be like 95% whitebecause we're scaring off
everyone else, with thesehorrible people who are making
sorry, I'm not being veryeloquent, but truly just
dreadful Accurate though who aremaking this an unsafe space for
all of us, we're we're nevergoing to get beyond rattling off
(04:30):
facts about different,different ethnic groups and
using that to inform our care.
Our, our care is never going toimprove in that way.
Speaker 3 (04:40):
Um I would also
imagine the the person has said
this to you is fully aware ofthe high suicide rates among
veterinarian professionals.
Right, cause that was somethingI didn't know about until, you
know, I had met Erica and Ilearned about it.
But I would imagine somebody inthe field is fully aware that
there's this high suicide rateto begin with, right, and that
(05:00):
is also not a factor in theirdecision to be aggressive and
horrible to somebody.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Yeah, I mean even
stepping away from any of the
quote unquote politics of thescenario.
Just a professor whoseresponsibility is to teach, who
I have given so much trust to,who I've been so vulnerable with
, to behave in such a violentfashion is just how, did how did
(05:36):
you even end up in thisposition?
You know where, where.
Where are the?
Where are the ethics?
You know where?
Where is the oath that you tookto to the greater veterinary
community?
Speaker 4 (05:51):
yeah I oh sorry no
you, you go first please I was
just going to say that you knowthe.
I think it should also bediscussed why the walkout even
have, like the demonstration,even had to happen in the first
place.
Right, if the university andthe institution had created an
environment of support forstudents that were directly
(06:12):
dealing with this incident andthis terrible, terrible genocide
, it wouldn't have happenedbecause there wouldn't have been
that, students would have feltsupported, students would have
felt hurt, and that's somethingto be said as well.
And I think that, matthew, Ithink you mentioned earlier
about you know going throughavenues like reporting, and
(06:33):
that's something that we alsodid.
We went through, you know,official university avenues to
report the incidents and youknow direct quotes and
timestamps and all that stuff.
And it was essentially, youknow, when we got our response
back, it was deemed quote notpervasive or offensive enough to
be considered harassment, endquote.
(06:54):
And you know to hear that is apunch in the gut in itself.
But it's also just sointeresting that you know these
institutions are promotingstudents to well.
First they're bringing instudents of diverse backgrounds
and then they're telling thesediverse students to, you know,
be movers and shakers and tothem they go ahead and repress
(07:16):
them and they do it in a waythat is very offensive, and in a
way that is it goes into whatyou were saying about, erica,
about moral duplicity, right?
(07:37):
This idea that, oh, like, we'retotally going to elevate these
voices because they'reunderserved and they're not
heard, but then, when it comesto topics that are discussed by
these groups, oh no, we're notgoing to talk about those ones,
though, because maybe that'llget in the way of our funding or
(07:58):
PR, or whatever the reasons maybe.
So I think there's something tobe said there for sure.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
I don't know if Dr Q
wanted to get into this at all,
but they like speaking of thatrepression and silencing.
I feel like, drq, you faced itmost egregiously, non-stop left
and right.
Speaker 5 (08:18):
I don't know if any
of those stories you wanted to
recount or share yeah, it wasfrustrating, um, yeah, so, like,
the first time was when Iresponded to the dean's
solidarity statement.
I didn't get a response, um, andthen another letter was sent
(08:39):
out and the response was no, notallowed to make any more
solidarity statements.
And then something that I'vebeen wanting to bring up, that
we were all involved with, thatwas just if not as infuriating,
maybe even more infuriating thanthe walkout.
(09:00):
And what happened there is wehad a memorial for the
Palestinian lives that were lost, and so we put up pictures of
Palestinians, palestiniancivilians who were killed, and
candles and flowers, and we hada little memorial.
(09:22):
And then we put it up in abuilding where, like several
other displays, had been put upby other student groups, and we
were told that it needed to comedown.
And it was the same facultymembers who yelled in our faces
who had come, looked at it, madea phone call and administration
(09:45):
decided it needed to come downbecause somehow it was
anti-Semitic.
And so that was just soinfuriating, because what is
more dehumanizing than hearingthat we're not allowed to honor
our people who have been killedin a genocide and that that
(10:09):
needs to come down?
But you can stop like things,other things, yeah and how is
that?
Speaker 3 (10:15):
even remotely
anti-semitic that word has
become.
I mean, it's been thrown aroundfor everything.
Speaker 5 (10:21):
Now that it's
actually lost all meaning, I
think like in in terms of whenpeople are using it I completely
agree, like it's dangerous, um,for true acts of anti-semitism
because it's taking away fromthe meaning of anti-semitism the
way it's being used, thrownaround by people.
So I completely agree with that.
And then, um, and then, yeah,there's just several instances
(10:42):
where where I tried to dosomething, tried to hold an
event, tried to send out a flyerfor something that was
happening on main campus a paneldiscussion and the responses I
got back are all kinds ofexcuses like, oh, this doesn't
have to do with veterinarymedicine, we're not going to
advertise it, we're not going tosend that out, we're not going
(11:04):
to send something that'spolitical, um, all kinds of
excuses.
And and so the silencing, yeah,just kept happening over and
over and over again.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
and and whenever I
tried to point that out, I just
got more excuses like, no, we'renot trying to silence you, um,
yeah, your bureaucratic um,barriers, right, um,
obstructionism, right, it's verycommon, it's a very commonly
used tactic by veterinaryadministrations, educational
(11:37):
administrations, of course,across the board, um.
So if you are an organizer witha larger institution, like
understand, like what we'redoing here, we can have
conversations at another time,right, when you are facing
repression, like you know.
Collect your receipts as far asevidence as much as possible,
(11:58):
as much of a recording aspossible, and hold on to it,
because the time to talk aboutit, if it's not going to be able
to happen right away, is we cantalk about it.
We can talk about we might notbe able to talk about it
directly, but we can talk aboutit like we're talking about it
here.
That I am.
I am hopeful that maybe someadministrators at the place that
(12:19):
you were will one day listen tothis and maybe they might have
some reflections to expand on it, because I'd like to take this
in an angle.
You know I've had a couple ofconversations acts of peaceful
protest, right, which, all ofthese things as far as
(12:40):
acknowledging that there arelives that are, that are being
grieved for by a community, um,so, in this case, like a
veterinary community that isgrieving the law, the killing of
palestinians, um, that when,like when, um a strategy of, of
(13:06):
obstruction is, is to kind ofmake it narrow, which is an
irony is saying it's notinvolving mental health.
When we talk about the conceptsof One Health, right, as far as
veterinary medicine is reallyreally big on saying like, oh
well, we're perfectly positionedfor this concept of One Health,
which I'm going to, if one ofthe students wants to talk a
(13:27):
little bit about One Health andwhat it means, because this has
always been something that wasvery important for me as a
student many years ago whenglobal veterinary medicine, this
concept of global veterinarymedicine and global One Health
came to be part of it and where,absolutely, we should be caring
about conflict areas ofconflict, areas of what happens
(13:50):
with a genocide, what happenswith political instability and
these kinds of things, becausethey affect agriculture, animals
, the human-animal bond, and soI really wanted to emphasize
that and bring conversation toOne Health and have the students
and Dr Q speak about theirpassions about it.
(14:12):
And then the next thing I'd liketo shift to, if you would
indulge me talk about yourrelationship with the
human-animal bond.
This comes from your culturebackground, because I think all
three of you, and also me, asBIPOC veterinary professionals,
we might have a differentperspective of the honoring of
the human-animal bond comparedto other cultures, and I
(14:35):
explicitly want us to talk aboutBIPOC culture and the human
animal bonds from each of yourperspectives, if you're willing
to indulge me.
Okay.
So refocusing students, oneHealth and the irony of being
told no, you're not going to betalking about other areas of
healthcare because it's notveterinary medicine.
Speaker 4 (14:58):
Absolutely.
Yeah, I guess.
Just to give a basic definition, I'll read off One Health is an
approach that recognizes thatthe health of people is closely
connected to the health ofanimals in our shared
environment.
You can talk about anything nowonce you put like one health
(15:26):
behind it, because it's true,one health is it's very
intersectional um, in the sensethat it you know, our, our
systems are so intertwined um,and everything does relate to
one another um, at the end ofthe day, and you know, human
health and animal health is avery apparent, you know,
connection.
Whether we're talking aboutepidemics, pandemics, things
like that, like you know, highlypathogenic avian influenza is a
(15:48):
big hot topic right now.
That's a one health, you know,issue for sure.
But I think you know, inregards to Palestine, you know
there's a lot of to be saidabout one health and Palestine
being an issue of one health.
Whether you're talking about,you know, the animals and the
crops and the human health thathas come as a result of bombing
(16:09):
infrastructure, water sourcesand polluting water sources,
intentionally poisoning meatproducts that are getting sent
in through borders.
These are all issues ofunhealth that need to be talked
about and they're very relevantto what we should be talking
about in our institutions ingeneral.
I don't believe incompartmentalization of you know
(16:33):
, veterinary medicine beingabout you know, the pet that
walks into your clinic or justthe person in front of you.
I think these issues broadenand expand and, um, I think
that's what makes one health sobeautiful but challenging at the
same time is that it's soencompassing that it could be a
conversation that started andthen never ended.
It's just that encapsulating.
(16:54):
And I think maybe another wordto kind of make it more tangible
for people that it's theirfirst time hearing it is this
idea of intersectionality.
I feel like it's quite a bigword these days and I would
argue it's a similar concept toone health, right, if we were to
talk about intersectionalenvironmentalism, for example,
which is something I'm verypassionate about, right, the
idea that the way oneexperiences climate justice and
(17:19):
climate injustice directlycorrelates, excuse me, to your
SES.
Your skin color where you live,history of redlining, all of
these things play a crucial rolein how climate change can
affect you and I think you knowthat is just a parallel, excuse
me, to One Health.
(17:40):
And, yeah, when we talk aboutPalestine and when we talk about
One Health, like you can'tforget Palestine is, I guess,
what I'm trying to say, and it'svery important to recognize
these intricacies and I thinkwhen we ignore them, we are
doing the world a disservice andwe're also doing ourselves a
(18:00):
disservice, because it's reallybeautiful and it's really
important to make theseconnections and to and we all
need to use our niches and theunique, you know, the unique
degrees that we come with, theunique passions that we come
with, the art that we create,like all of that plays a role in
how we can solve, so we cancreate solutions and solve
(18:22):
problems, and so having thesekinds of discussions that are so
branching, like One Health, canreally create some interesting
dialogue and create some verytangible solutions to better the
lives of a lot of people uh,how about uh student s or dr q?
Speaker 1 (18:46):
do you have anything
that you'd like to add to that?
Speaker 5 (18:54):
I think student e did
a great job explaining the
concepts of one health and whyit's so important, and then just
a couple of other things sotalking about, like the
interconnectedness of everything.
The impact on the environmentin Gaza from the bombing is
(19:18):
going to impact the rest of theworld, and also all the money
that the US is sending willimpact things locally, because
those resources are not beingused here where they could be.
So just something else to keepin mind.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
It's amazing to me
how many people don't understand
that concept.
Dr Kulik, I've had thatconversation many times, just
from like the financialperspective of how much money we
are sending to fund a genocideversus taking care of the
failing infrastructures we havein this country, and it's like
it's sometimes it's talking liketalking to a wall.
(19:56):
People are just looking at melike it's, I don't get it.
And it's so obvious.
I don't understand why peopledon't see it so obvious I.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
I had a, I had a way
of discussing this um with a,
with a local organizer that I'veconnected to um.
So just also another note forum any veterinary professionals
on this call if you want to getmore active right in addition to
the things that students havementioned already.
(20:27):
As far as letter writing, youknow, utilizing your voice,
organizing, staging a walkout,getting connected with local
community that's organizing insolidarity is like really good
first step and we were havingthis conversation.
But I remember 9-11 happened myfreshman year of college, so I
(20:49):
had just uh and I went to um.
I went to uc berkeley, uh, youknow, which is a big on um, a
lot of human rights movementsand student-led movements and
there was a big anti-warmovement that happened when I
(21:10):
was there.
When I started my education, mytuition was like roughly about
$2,500 a semester in state Veryreasonable, very achievable.
A semester in state Veryreasonable, very achievable.
Now, of course, this was likethe kickoff of the beginning of
(21:31):
what has been many, many yearsof specifically targeting Muslim
countries for bombardment ofAmerican bombs, right, so just
think about the decades it'sbeen going on my tuition by the
time I left because I was at astate institution that was
(21:51):
getting governmental funding,which then precipitously
decreased because of the amountof money that was being spent on
military or militarization.
By the end of my college careerit was like maybe about $6,500
to almost $8,000 a semester overa four-year period.
(22:14):
There was a suit, a lawsuit.
I got a little bit of moneyback, but that is like like a
material like this is a materialoutcome, right, our
institutions, our programs, thethings that are already going to
be undermined to a certainextent, um of unknown amounts,
will continue to be, um indecreasing in quality, because
(22:37):
they're the budget is going tothe military, to bombs, of which
you know there has never beenan audit that has been completed
.
So, yeah, I don't.
You know, it's a little bit oddseeing billions and billions of
(23:00):
dollars go to destroying, uh,soil, ecosystems, um, water
supplies and and people andcultural and schools and
universities and all of thatstuff, and cultural and schools
(23:26):
and universities and all of thatstuff.
Um, you know the costs cost torebuild as well.
Right, that has environmentalimplications.
The, the long-term strategicthinking is not existent in our
world as far as far as I cantell.
This is completely my opinion,not associated with any
organization that I have anytype of relationship with.
I think I've cleared up most ofthose things.
(23:47):
As far as there's noorganization that I have like
enough of a relationship with,that will get into trouble about
this kind of stuff that I'msaying, but like, this is all my
opinion.
Speaker 3 (23:57):
I think some of that
goes back to the reason why I
started.
Well, why I called the podcastthe United States of PTSD is
because I think that, by design,that you could argue that the
country has been brilliant aboutdesensitizing people and making
people feel completely helplessand at the same time, you know,
feeling like they can't makeany changes.
So it's almost like that learnhelplessness, it's just like
(24:18):
okay, and you know, we are justinundated with trauma after
trauma after trauma, after, like, hitting wall after wall after
wall, and people just aren'tgiving up.
But I think, again, that's bydesign.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
Well, to shift for
the slightly up note,
potentially student S.
First I'd like to reflect backto see if there's anything else
on one health that thought, soyou wanted to add, and then
shifting, maybe taking us tolike what the human animal bond
means to you so we can cut,because I'm having this moment
(24:54):
being like I don't think thatI've actually had enough
conversations where coming tothe realization that how we
think about the human animalbond and how other people do
might be different.
So I really specifically wantto hear about that, what
inspires you in that space, sowe can also continue to humanize
ourselves to the people who aretrying to dehumanize us about
(25:17):
the way that we think about thehuman animal bond the way that
we think about the human-animalbond.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
Sure, I feel like the
way that I think about the
human-animal bond is actuallyreally intertwined with the
concept of One Health, which iswhat Student E so beautifully
laid out for us.
But I grew up in India and thatwas where I realized that I
wanted to become a veterinarian.
My mother and I did some animalwelfare work with stray dogs
(25:47):
and cats out there and I thinkthat, being here in America and
being in veterinary school here,the interpretation of the human
animal bond as one between apet and an owner exclusively has
(26:08):
never really resonated with me,even though, yes, of course
that's true, we all, like mycats, have been walking around
me the entire time we've beendoing this podcast.
All of us have cats that havebeen walking around us the
entire time we've been doingthis.
All of us have cats that havebeen walking around us the
entire time we've been doingthis.
But you know where I grew up.
Yes, people had pets, but Ithink the relationship that was
(26:37):
more important between humansand animals seemed to be of
neighbors or community members.
You know when dogs are likesheltering on your roof when
it's flooding outside, or likemonkeys sneak into your kitchen
and steal your bread or whatever.
You know you, just you, justyou live together as a community
, and that's just what myexperience of the human animal
bond has always been, and so theconcept of one health has never
(27:01):
been like this academicdiscussion of you know how human
health is intertwined withenvironmental factors and XYZ.
For me, it's just like, whenyou look around, this is how our
world is Like.
We are sharing the space.
It doesn't just belong to usand we all affect each other and
(27:22):
yeah, yeah, it's just, it's asacred thing and it goes beyond
just.
You know me and my cat sittingnext to me.
You know it's just how we liveand exist in our world.
Passing it on to student yeardr q sure I can go um.
Speaker 5 (27:53):
Yeah, that was
beautiful um student s um.
Yeah, I mean, I can resonatewith that and I feel the same
way um, and I think it is reallyimportant to think about the
fact that it's not just um areally a special relationship
(28:14):
between people and their pets,but there are also animals that
we depend on for food, foodproducts, transportation, and
that is such a beautifulrelationship as well, and that
is something that I have becomemore and more interested in
during my career is exploringthat relationship and how we
(28:39):
truly can't live without animals, how, um like, we truly can't
live without animals and and um,and I also want to emphasize
that like, we see that inPalestine and in Gaza, like,
there's so many children who aresaving their cats, um like,
putting their animals first umcaring for their cats when they
(29:02):
don't have anything to eat.
Um like the solala, theorganization that erica
mentioned, um.
I don't know how they're doingit.
They've saved hundreds ofanimals and they will carry
these animals with them umwhenever, whenever they have to
go um, when they're dislocated,so they're or delocated um, so
(29:25):
they've taken them from oneplace to another, and it's like
hundreds of cats like, like, andsomehow they're taking care of
all these animals, um, and thewounded animals, like they don't
leave any of them behind, and Ithink that is so beautiful and,
(29:46):
you know, like these beautifulpeople, beautiful human beings,
are putting these animals first,and that's also something that
we see in Islam too.
You know, we learn to take careof animals and to treat animals
well, and like that is verymuch a part of the Quran and a
(30:09):
part of our religion.
Speaker 3 (30:12):
So student a.
Did you want to add?
Okay?
Speaker 4 (30:20):
yeah, sure, um.
Thank you, dr q, for mentioningthat I was.
I also want to talk about islam, and I feel like um.
You know, I grew upunderstanding that nature was
very much a part of my test.
How I treated nature would be apart of my test in this life.
There's a word in Arabic calledamana and it means like trust,
(30:44):
like the trust, and in the Quran, or holy text, it says that,
essentially, humanity has beenplaced with the amana of this,
this world, the trust of thisworld.
We are like the, the keepers ofit, if you will, and we will be
tested in how we treat thecreatures of this world, the
creatures that have been created, the natural world and other
(31:04):
humans, and that's somethingthat I grew up understanding and
knowing and something I reallylove about Islam, and it's also
something that I think has verynaturally led me to want to
become a veterinarian, because Ifeel like this is a calling
that I have, I love medicine andI love animals, and I want to
uphold my veterinarian.
Um, because I feel like this isa calling that I have, I love
medicine and I love animals, andI want to uphold my islamic
duty of, you know, taking thatamount of very seriously, um,
(31:28):
and this just feels like thevery like the most aligned way
to do it.
Um, so, you know, life isincredibly sacred in islamic
theology and thought andpractice.
And, yeah, I also, you know, Ihave an environmental science
background and I learned a lotof interesting things from a lot
(31:48):
of amazing mentors, a lot ofthem being indigenous mentors
and I really had my eyes open tothis idea of, like the colonial
lens of man versus nature andthe fact that we separate indoor
from outdoor.
You know, our language is soimportant and the fact that we
even distinguish indoor fromoutdoor is in itself, something
(32:12):
that, whether we know it or not,kind of separates us from the
natural world, kind of separatesus from the natural world, and
there are a lot of systems inplace, ie capitalism or many
other systems, that kind of makeus forget that we are, in fact,
a part of this natural world.
That includes animals andplants, and the air that we
breathe, the water we drink andthe things that we do have a
(32:40):
direct impact on that.
Our answers had no separationfrom the natural world.
That was, there was nodistinction, right, you know,
even down to the names ofanimals.
You know there was no taming ofanimals, there's no taming of
the wild, or, you know, naturedomination these kinds of terms
(33:02):
didn't really exist, becausethere has always been a
reciprocity with the land andwith animals and that manifests
in a lot of beautiful ways and Ithink you know.
On the topic of Palestine, youknow Palestine, they say, is a
litmus test and I also believethat Palestine is, and
Palestinian culture is abeautiful example of, you know,
the indigenous connection toland and this idea that
(33:23):
Palestinians truly resist fortheir love of the land, not for
revenge or not for hatred, it'ssimply because of a love for the
land.
And if you don't know much aboutPalestine, you and you do some
very basic research, you youwould quickly find that olive
trees, for example, are anincredibly important symbol of
(33:43):
resistance and hope forPalestinians and that is solely
due to the connection to theland.
Right, you know, you have thepeople that absolutely love
their land and tend to theirland, and there's just so much
to be said about that.
I feel like there's so muchtruth in how a group of people
or one treats, um, the thenatural world around them,
(34:05):
whether it's animals, whetherit's plants, whether it's their
water, whether it's their air.
Um, there's a lot to be said.
If you're trying to upholdthose resources, um, I would
like to think you're on the sideof truth and morality.
And if you're trying to bombthose resources and trying to
seal those resources andcommandeer them and commodify
(34:27):
them, then I'm afraid that's notthe truth and I think that is
you know.
If you don't know much aboutPalestine, I encourage anyone
listening to really understandthat natural connection to the
land and how it's just soimportant for so many people,
not just Palestinians, but allIndigenous people across all
(34:51):
corners of the world.
Speaker 3 (34:53):
Thank you so much.
Those are great.
Well, thank all three of you.
Those are great answers.
I just for time we do have towrap up, and I just wanted to
close and ask all of you onething.
So, for those people who arenot veterinarians, or those
people who are not in the realmof veterinarian medicine or
animal medicine, what can theydo to help support you?
Speaker 1 (35:22):
do to help support
you.
I'm going to kick off, actually, if you don't mind, because
I've had some collaborativeconversations with some
solidarity work where we came upwith a list of things.
So, number one you can go andfind animal health care workers
against genocide, and it is not.
(35:43):
We have a website.
There are like letter campaignsthat you can participate in or
be aware of.
In addition, other types oflocal organizing, suggestions or
other things that you can showup at.
(36:03):
So the other thing to consideris to show evidence of your
solidarity with Palestinianhuman rights when you go to your
veterinary clinic.
So go ahead and wear a keffiyehwhen you bring your pet in to
be seen at the veterinary clinic.
(36:25):
You may, unfortunately, receivesome experiences that might not
be great, right, but my hope isthat there are two things that
will happen.
Number one that people at thatveterinary clinic who may be
organizing and who may have feltalone will feel that solidarity
(36:48):
of seeing somebody representingPalestinian solidarity walk
into their clinic.
So there's that right and youcan do.
What we're going to do is we'regoing to work on a One Health
for Gaza button and sticker thatspecifically explicitly says
(37:09):
One Health for Gaza, and if youwear that pin in front of a
veterinary professional, it willhave meaning, right.
So I actually did, carving myown stamps to do this.
So, just like, go ahead, makesomething One Health for Gaza
and then go wear that or havethat in visibility spaces and in
(37:32):
spaces where you're doingadvocacy work and see who
connects with you and becausethat person, you can connect
them to a community ofveterinary professionals who are
taking action and just saying,like you know, being there and
saying that it's something thatyou care about.
So, with those ideas, who wantsto go next?
Speaker 2 (38:05):
I can chime in from a
student perspective.
At universities around thecountry, students have been
organizing.
There are some vet schools thathave vet students organizing as
well and posting on socialmedia.
So I would encourage communitymembers and people outside of
vet med to investigate on socialmedia If you happen to be near
a veterinary school, see ifthere are students organizing
(38:28):
and you know you can do one oftwo things.
You can always repost on socialmedia.
Many students are sharing theirnarratives, as well as the
narratives of their communitymembers and Palestinians on
social media and amplifying thatreally really does make a
difference.
The other thing is communitymembers can always attend and
(38:52):
help at actual physical events.
So when we host events at ourveterinary school, we do not
host them exclusively forveterinary students.
We want to educate and buildcommunity and, like Dr Q was
saying earlier, that feeling ofbeing alone and not being able
to be brave because it's justyou, if you as a community
(39:14):
member or a different kind ofstudent or whoever you may be,
were to show up and say, hey,I'm not a vet student, I'm not a
veterinarian, but I'm here withyou, we're here together,
you're not alone it makes amassive difference.
We have had a lot of supportfrom people outside of vet med
that have made this possible,because if it weren't for them,
(39:34):
it would have been like five ofus and that's pretty scary.
So there's always something todo, even if that something is
just showing up and saying, hey,I'm here right now with you.
Speaker 3 (39:51):
Dr Q, student E.
Speaker 5 (39:57):
So I agree with all
that.
And then just things to do ingeneral.
Um, to help palestine is don'tstop talking about it.
It's a kind of what you guyswere mentioning, but keep
talking about it.
When we talk about selectiveempathy or um, like, I feel like
some people will just talkabout something when it's
convenient for them, um, but,and it is, I don.
(40:22):
I don't know if this is theright word, but it feels like
it's losing momentum, but peopleare still dying every day in
Gaza.
So don't stop talking about itand don't underestimate how much
you sharing a post or having aconversation with somebody who
doesn't know anything aboutPalestine, how much of a
difference that makes.
There are people who I hadconversations with years ago who
(40:45):
have reached out to me and toldme that they know about
Palestine because of aconversation that we had, and
they're in solidarity and askinghow they can help, and there
are organizations to donate toSulala in particular.
If you're interested in helpinganimals that are rescued, and
(41:07):
then rallies and physical eventsas well.
That's a part of it.
Speaker 3 (41:14):
Dr Hu, what was the
name of that place that you said
?
The organization?
Speaker 5 (41:18):
Sulala, so
S-U-L-A-L-A Okay.
Speaker 3 (41:24):
I'll add that to the
notes at the end.
Speaker 5 (41:28):
Thank you.
Speaker 4 (41:31):
Yeah, what everyone
said was amazing, and I might be
a little bit redundant in whatI say, but I think, just in
general, a good ally will alwaysamplify BIPOC voices and
actions because, at the end ofthe day, there is safety and
strength in numbers, and so Ireally do encourage people in
(41:51):
any space, not just theveterinary space, to really be
brave and speak up in whateverrespective space you find
yourself in and to take it uponyourself to educate first
yourself and then the peoplearound you, whether it's
co-workers, students, colleagues, etc.
And then, I would also say, tosupport popular movements such
(42:11):
as boycotting Israeli products,such as Disney or Starbucks, for
example.
And I would recommend forpeople to refer to the BDS list,
aka the Boycott, divestment andSanctions list that's already
online and established, withextensive research and a lot of
important justification for whythis could be an important
strategy for the liberation ofPalestine.
(42:32):
Yeah, those are the main thingsI have to say.
Speaker 3 (42:39):
I just want to add to
this.
So I used to be a huge disneyfan.
I went to.
I was an annual pass holder.
I went three to four times ayear.
Um, I have not supported themsince nothing.
I mean a little bit of a moralconundrum myself because I had a
.
There's a friend of mine whoraised you at disney with every
year for uh, food and wine andwe would go to ha Halloween
Horror Nights and he becameterminal and he knew I was
(43:01):
boycotting him.
It looked like he was going toget better.
So he said when I get better,will you go with me one more
time?
I said I will go with you onemore time when you get better
and he has recently passed away.
So now I'm having this moralconundrum of do I go to honor
him or do I not?
Because of the boycott.
I've been really strugglingwith that, I have to say.
(43:21):
But other than that, I havebeen boycotting everything I
possibly can and not putting anymoney into anything that
supports genocide.
Speaker 1 (43:32):
There is another step
.
So we've been collaboratingwith Doctors Against Genocide,
which is a very powerful groupthat's doing a lot of amazing
work.
Um, so, um, a lot of theseorganizations have like direct
action contacts that are raisingmoney to specifically like
(43:54):
purchase and address things likewithin Gaza and within
Palestine.
So anytime you're looking intolike donating and amplifying to
work with organizations that aredoing medical missions are
really important, because often,actually, one thing that
(44:16):
Sulawala is doing is workingwith medical missions for each
person that is able to getthrough to attempt to bring bags
of pet food with them through,and it is as yet unknown whether
or not we're able tosuccessfully get stuff through.
We have a lot of examples ofdoctors who are bringing medical
(44:39):
supplies that get thosesupplies turned away at the
crossing.
So continuing to talk about itand really, really putting
pressure on organizations aboutsaying let aid through, because
at this point in time, even thedoctors that are getting through
are unable to bring medicalsupplies in, and that is is um
(45:06):
horrifying number one um but toalso contributing as, as as dr q
was emphasizing, like therethere are, um, you know there
are just so many um children andum innocent civilians and like,
like, like, all all of thesepeople who are just like the,
(45:27):
the, just like innocent people,um, uh, that are, are, aren't?
You know?
There's, there's nothing right,there are no resources, and we
have kids that are dying ofdiarrheal diseases that are
preventable.
So, yeah, get active, getinvolved and sometimes, if we
(45:50):
can't do something perfectly thefirst way around, like, just
you know, just keep at it.
You know, just keep at it.
Like what I have been reallyreflecting on, that is a gift
that Palestinian colleagues havegifted to me.
Is this concept of thinkingabout steadfastness right To
like, be steadfast in this, andit really yeah, so I hope that
(46:18):
we can have another conversationat another point in time, that
is, you know, where we have someprogress all of you seriously.
Speaker 3 (46:39):
This has been a great
conversation.
I appreciate everything thatall of you have said and that
you've taken your time to comeand be on the podcast.
I really appreciate it and Iwill put the link to the two
things that you had mentionedthe animal was it the animal?
Healthcare workers againstgenocide?
And the other one, the SulalaIs that it?
It seems like I only see anInstagram page and a Facebook
(47:00):
page.
Do they have an actual website?
Speaker 1 (47:03):
Not an actual website
.
Speaker 3 (47:05):
yeah, it's through
Facebook or Instagram, correct?
Speaker 1 (47:09):
Yeah, so the Facebook
?
There are two, and this issomething to also understand.
Is that, like, the mechanism ofbeing able to get resources
there is systematically andintentionally designed to be
almost like feelinginsurmountable in some ways to
some ways, but you know, and yetwe persist.
(47:29):
This is why direct action isgoing to be so critical.
Speaker 3 (47:34):
So thank you again
everybody.
I really appreciate it andhopefully we'll get some good
feedback.
Speaker 4 (47:42):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 5 (47:45):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (48:14):
Hello everybody and
thank you again for listening.
Everybody, and thank you againfor listening.
This is just a reminder that nopart of this podcast can be
duplicated or copied withoutwritten consent from either
myself or Wendy.
Thank you again.