S:3 E 22 Holy Terror: When Faith Becomes Fear

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Every survivor has a story that deserves to be heard. In this powerful conversation, we're joined by Amy, a social work student and survivor of religious trauma who shares her journey through high-control Catholicism and the devastating abuse she experienced, at the hands of a trusted priest.

Amy takes us through her childhood immersed in religious fear – developing religious OCD as she performed rituals, before bed, to ward off demons she was taught would possess her if she failed to pray correctly. This environment of spiritual terror created perfect conditions for exploitation when a parish priest, meant to counsel her through religious anxiety, instead sexually abused her at just 12 years old. Most chilling was how he weaponized her faith against her, describing his abuse as a divinely authorized "prayer."

When Amy finally disclosed what happened, the institutional response reveals a pattern familiar to many survivors – the church launched an investigation focused not on protecting her but on discrediting her testimony. A nun asked her, "What did you do to seduce him?" – a question that encapsulates the victim-blaming that enables abuse to flourish. Meanwhile, the perpetrator was quietly transferred to a military base, a common tactic employed to shield abusers from consequences.

The conversation expands beyond Amy's personal experience to examine how high-control religious environments systematically dismantle critical thinking and intuition, creating vulnerability by teaching followers to ignore internal warning signals. This conditioning extends beyond religion into other authoritarian systems, showing how these control mechanisms operate across different contexts.

Whether you're a survivor of religious trauma, working in mental health, or simply seeking to understand these complex dynamics, Amy's courageous testimony offers profound insights into both the damage inflicted by institutional betrayal and the possibility of healing through truth-telling. Subscribe now to hear the second part of Amy's story, where she'll share her journey of deconstruction and recovery.

Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests

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Hela: Ruler of the Realm of the Dead - Mythical Encyclopedia

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Goddess Lost by Rachel McCoppin

The Myth of the Goddess by Jules Cashford and Anne Baring

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 2 (00:15):
This podcast is not intended to serve as therapeutic
advice or to replace anyprofessional treatment.
These opinions belong to us anddo not reflect any company or
agency.

Speaker 3 (00:29):
Hello everybody and welcome back to another episode
of the United States of PTSD.
Erica and I are here with avery special speaker.
That is special to me becauseshe is a former student of mine,
and I'm going to let youintroduce yourself Amy.

Speaker 2 (00:45):
Hi everyone, my name is Amy.
Like Matt said, I'm a studentof social work and I'm happy to
be here.

Speaker 3 (00:53):
Thank you, amy, and oh, go ahead, erica.

Speaker 1 (00:57):
Oh.
So, amy, I would love for youto introduce what you would like
to talk and share about with ustoday, because I think that you
sharing your personalexperience and what you want to
talk about with us today as faras getting us started, is going
to be the best introduction toit for our audience.

Speaker 2 (01:20):
Sure, yeah.
So the reason why I decided tostudy social work was because I
wanted to work with people whowere leaving high control groups
, such as cults, such as a highcontrol religion, and supporting
them through the deconstructionprocess and kind of sorting all

(01:41):
that out, sorting all that out.
So that's what drew me tosocial work and the reason why
I'm interested in that isbecause I have a very personal
experience with deconstructionand with being involved in a
high control religiousorganization.

Speaker 3 (01:55):
I'm glad you brought that word up, amy deconstruction
, because it's such a pivotalpart of getting out of any
control group.
People think of it same waythat I think people think of
domestic violence situationswhere it's just like get out.
But it's not that easy becauseit's a whole process of changing
the way you think and then whenyou do get out, I would imagine
there's still a whole processthat goes with reestablishing

(02:17):
some level of normalcy andgetting you know getting out of
that.
So I'm glad you brought thatword up.
Can you tell us, do you mind,starting off by telling us your
history of how that impacted you?

Speaker 2 (02:29):
Specifically how deconstructing impacted me.

Speaker 3 (02:33):
Being involved in the high control religion first,
and then the deconstruction part.

Speaker 2 (02:38):
Yeah, I mean.
So I can definitely talk aboutmy faith formation as a child
and just what that looked likefor me.
I grew up in a very mainstreamreligion.
I grew up Catholic, and I thinkthat what people might not
realize about Catholicism isit's very much a spectrum.
You have, like, people who willgo I'll go to midnight mass on

(02:58):
Christmas, maybe Easter, maybedo a sacrament here or two, and
that's kind of it and then onthe other end you have
traditionalists, where the massis still set in Latin.
There's definitely a genderpower differential between you
know, where women have to sit inthe back and they have to cover
their hair and they have todress a certain way, even like

(03:20):
the music they listen to.
They can only listen toGregorian chants, so it's very
high control.
And while my family were nottraditionalist, I think we
leaned more towards that end ofthe spectrum.
So growing up I was veryinvolved in the church.
My parents were very involvedin the church.
My dad actually worked forCardinal Law at the Archdiocese

(03:42):
of Boston.
He was the head of maintenanceat the Chancery.
So for people who don't know,that's the mansion that Cardinal
Law lived in and so my parentswere well known within the
Catholic Church.
I had a really strong faith as achild.
I sang in the choir and Ibecame an altar server.
When girls were allowed tobecome altar servers, I think I

(04:04):
was like 10 or 11.
I was like, yes, let's do this,cause I was so mad that only
boys could be altar servers.
You know, that was somethingthat always bugged me.
So I signed up right away and Iwas always at the church but I
loved it, like I'm that weirdkid that just loved going to
mass.
I had such this, a profoundlove for Jesus and um.
But on the flip side of that Ihad this real fear of God that

(04:29):
really made me a very anxiouschild.
There's a huge focus on sin inCatholicism and so just being
taught that you are inherentlysinful and that you could burn
in hell for all of eternity andthe only way to be saved from
that is to go to your priest andconfess your sins and you get

(04:53):
salvation through this authorityfigure.
And I think that part of likethe way my brain worked when I
was a kid I think part of it wasthe indoctrination, but I also
think part of it was mypersonality, where I just took
things so literally, soseriously.
The other piece of that is Iwas very hungry for adult

(05:14):
approval and for externalvalidation.
I still struggle with that alot now.
But when you're taught thatit's these people in authority
that can give you salvation andthey're the ones that tell you
if you're good enough, I wasconstantly seeking that and this
led me down into developinglike a religious OCD, which is

(05:40):
actually very common inCatholicism.
There are a lot of studies andI think it's because of the
ritualistic nature of Catholicum, catholic mass, and so this
definitely didn't help this Um,my parents, we lived in a four
family.
My dad was a landlord.
Anytime a tenant would leave,my mom would have a priest come

(06:01):
over and do a blessing and itdefinitely was more exorcism-y
um with the holy water and thecrucifix and the Bible, and I
would be there and I was likeseven, eight years old and the
narrative was that these wereungodly people living here and
they've left like evil spirits.
And there are these demons andwe need to get them out of the
house.
And you know, I'm thinking like, oh my gosh, like what if we

(06:22):
didn't get them all?
And one of them crawls up thewall to my bedroom and crawls
into my head.
I was insanely afraid of demonpossession.

Speaker 3 (06:32):
Was this Amy?
Was this anybody that moveddown?
So this was the standard forany tenant, pretty much so.
Every tenant that came in wasoccupied by demonic spirits.

Speaker 1 (06:43):
So yeah, so I just want to reflect a couple of
things.
Number one, the high controllanguage.
Like, I also really value thatthat's a new term for me as far
as just naming it specificallyas high control, which seems
like the most authenticexpression of what it is.

(07:08):
It's very easy to understandand, I think, also relationing
to this as far as a deep fear of, like the fear, control, like
the connection between fear andcontrol, and how that also is
implemented in childhood, at avery vulnerable stage, and I

(07:31):
think all of these things aresomething that go beyond
religion as well, and we see itin other places too.
See it in other places too, andso I really value how what
you're bringing up right now,even though it is in the context
of occults, I think that thisis very applicable in so many

(07:54):
situations and that really, yeah, I think that's very important.
So, thank you.

Speaker 3 (07:59):
Absolutely.
And I just want to add onething to that too I think this
is important for the listenerswhen we're talking about trauma,
but also, amy, when you'retelling your story about this as
well is that trauma, bydefinition, is a normal response
to an abnormal scenario.
So when you're being, you know,when you're in your formative
years, and somebody is givingyou this narrative about demons

(08:22):
and all of this stuff, yourreactions are not insane,
they're normal.
It's a normal response to anabnormal scenario.
There is no way to react tothat, right?
So you could argue too and Ithink way back in season one I
may have talked about this alittle bit of how we do.
We kind of set up the process bytalking about things like Santa

(08:43):
, the Easter Bunny, and we dothis thing where we get kids to
believe in these entities andthen we reward them for
believing in it, and that's thesame time we introduce religion,
and then what we do is we pullback on all the things that
they're getting rewarded for andsay like, oh, that's all fake.
But there's one thing over herethis is actually the real thing
.
All the rest of it was kind ofBS, but this.

(09:03):
But there's one thing over here.
This is actually the real thing, that all the rest of it was
kind of BS, but this is true.
And so again, just it's not you, it's not your fault, right?
This is a?
It's a normal response, socontinue your story, please.
I just wanted to throw that outthere.

Speaker 2 (09:15):
No, and thank you, and I appreciate that you're.
I actually really appreciatethat you're.
You're pointing out how, howtroubling this narrative can be.
Pointing out how troubling thisnarrative can be and when you
start telling kids what's rightand what's wrong, and then on
top of that, specifically what Ithink happens in religion is
they dampen out your intuition,they dampen out that critical

(09:35):
thinking.
You're not allowed to askquestions.
I had a therapist tell me yearslater like your alarm system was
broken because I had beentaught to not pay attention to
that, to when things felt wrong,to not question it, and that
takes a long time to undo, youknow.
So, yeah, so I developed apretty bad religious OCD where I

(10:01):
would mimic a lot of therituals that the priest would do
at the house, but I would do itin my room at night before
going to bed.
It was very disruptive.
I wouldn't sleep because Iwould just be doing these
prayers all night because I wasso afraid that if I didn't do it
exactly right, exactly the wayGod wanted, he would let a devil

(10:21):
possess me.
So that was like my childhood.
My faith, that was that.

Speaker 3 (10:29):
And there's the whole .
There's the irony behind here'sthis all loving entity, but if
you don't do the right thing,you're going to get punished and
you're going to get possessedby demons and you're going to go
to hell and you're going tosuffer.
But I'm all loving.

Speaker 2 (10:43):
Yeah, I mean it's funny because I realized
recently I went my first abusiverelationship was with this God
that had been constructed for me.
That was my first abusive,emotionally manipulative
relationship.
Whether it was real or notdoesn't matter, it was very real
for me.
So I obviously I struggled alot.

(11:05):
I had really bad anxiety.
I was a good kid though.

Speaker 3 (11:09):
Amy, can I just interject for one second?
Because, erica, you looked likeyou had a response to it and
Erica, I want to hear what just?
Happened.

Speaker 1 (11:21):
I just think about a kid alone and that just breaks
my heart.
So, like I have high auntieenergy we'll call it that the
gender neutral term for it and Ijust got to meet a lot of my
friend's kids at a weddingrecently who I haven't gotten to

(11:42):
meet and they're, you know,little toddlers and joyous,
joyous human beings.
And for me, to like I'm a littlebit emotionally on edge in
general with greater things inthe world, but the the concept

(12:04):
of a child alone in their roomat night, afraid to that level,
sleep-depressed, disruption it'sincredibly distressing, just
like when we think of all of thechildren in the world right now
who are afraid and who have somuch fear, and how dismissive

(12:30):
adults on in general at timescan take the fear of children
right, and and this is this youknow as like a person who works
with animals and thinking aboutlike the fear that animals have,
right, there are animals thatwill die from fear, right, and

(12:51):
so for me, I'm just having thismove through me about that
reaction around compassion.
You know this is a response formy compassion and a distress of
thinking about that youngerversion of yourself alone, and
so that's yeah, that's where Iam thank you for sharing that,

(13:14):
erica.

Speaker 2 (13:14):
I appreciate that thank you, erica and I I I
appreciate your compassionbecause that's something I
didn't have, so so I doappreciate that.

Speaker 1 (13:26):
Yeah, I think that when we yeah, I also I grew up
in a high control household andI often think about how we heal
by also thinking about you knowthe things that children need,
you know when they got throughit right and doing that healing
work.
So, yeah, I think that's alittle message out to everyone

(13:49):
listening, understanding thatchildren are vulnerable, and
also that our society puts verylittle thought into um
children's autonomy and childrenlike children's rights, like we

(14:12):
literally have people beinglike parents are the 100%
arbiters of what happens totheir children, what goes in
their body, you know, etc.
Etc.
And it makes no acknowledgementfor the existence of abuse.

Speaker 3 (14:28):
There's no guardrails on that and, yeah, I think, to
Amy before you continue thestory.
I think, erica, the reactionyou had is what I want from
people listening.
So if, while Amy is telling therest of her story for the
listeners out there, if youcould think about your either

(14:50):
you when you were a child or, asErica said, think about like
your favorite niece or yourfavorite nephew, or just a kid,
that a child that's in your life, and think about what Amy is
saying in relation to what thatsame child would be going
through.
So, amy, if you could continueplease.

Speaker 2 (15:06):
Thanks, matt.
I do appreciate that you'reemphasizing that.
Yeah, so my parents being thegood Catholic parents they were,
by the time I got to like mypreteens, it was pretty obvious
I was struggling, they theyreached out to our parish priest
for advice and he offered tocounsel me um that.

(15:32):
So I saw him for counseling.
I used their quotes um thatprocess.
He was very much grooming meand, um side note, not the first
predator in the church that Iattended, um, not the first time
I was groomed by a priest, umcause the one that was there

(15:57):
throughout my childhood was alsoactively grooming me.
Nothing happened, but with thisparticular priest that came in
after him the first timesomething inappropriate happened
was actually on my 12thbirthday and it took sorry, it

(16:22):
took until about three years ago, so about close to 25 years,
for me to allow myself tocelebrate my birthday, um,
because it was so directlylinked to an event that changed
the trajectory of my life.
I apologize, maybe don't takeyour time.

Speaker 3 (16:45):
Don't apologize, just take your time.
Trajectory of my life, Iapologize.

Speaker 1 (16:49):
Amy, take your time.
Don't apologize, just take yourtime.
Amy, I am also a survivor of anevent that happened when I was

(17:10):
very young and it took until mylate 20s so, like you know,
decades to communicate about it.
So first of all, I want to saythank you for sharing that.
I understand that that is a bigand it comes at a cost every
time, yeah, and the importanceof sharing that so people can

(17:32):
like take that information andbe part of the change is so
powerful.
So thank you for that as well.

Speaker 2 (17:43):
Thank you and I'm so sorry for what you went through
Ditto.
Yeah, I find a lot of strengthin talking to other survivors.
I just think there's so muchunity and power there, so thank
you for sharing that with me.

Speaker 1 (18:06):
Thank you for sharing that with me.
I'm just going to put a note.
When I was on my first journeyof processing, you know you have
this initial moment inadulthood where you process that
right.
One of the people who reallyhelped me was a member of SNAP

(18:28):
yeah, was a member of snap.
Yeah, um, and snap is anincredible organization.
Um, that is basically aboutending what was just described
here I'm very involved in snap.

Speaker 2 (18:36):
Actually I've gone to a few of their conferences and,
yeah, I've done a few of theirmeetings.

Speaker 3 (18:40):
Their support groups too, yeah, they're wonderful can
you just explain to thelisteners what SNAP is?
Because when you first saidSNAP, of course I'm thinking of
the food stamp program.
I'm thinking other people mightbe thinking that.
So what does SNAP stand for?

Speaker 2 (18:53):
It's the survivors networks of those abused by
priests, but it's really open toany survivors of sexual abuse
either in your childhood as anadult.
They have different supportgroups, but their main goal is
looking to.
They also lobby to change lawsaround child protection.

(19:16):
To change, you know, make surethat there's mandatory reporting
, even if you're a clergy member.
So they do a lot of good work.

Speaker 3 (19:26):
Yeah, and just to add , thank you for sharing that.
By the way, I want to add insomething specific to our area.
So, and and I'll put this inthe notes, but I just looked it
up really quickly because I hada friend when I was growing up
who was a survivor of sexualassault from the Catholic Church
and I know he was awarded a lotof money, so I was just looking

(19:47):
it up to see if I could find it.
He ultimately committed suicideafter he received the money.
So it I mean obviously moneydoes not fix trauma, but it does
look like.
In 2002, the Diocese ofProvidence paid $13.5 million.
36 survivors of clergy abusewere involved.
So I'll link that in the notes.
But that's specific to theRhode Island area and we know

(20:07):
that that's a, that that's anational thing, it's not.

Speaker 2 (20:11):
Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (20:13):
International Absolutely.

Speaker 3 (20:15):
International correct .
Thank you, yes.

Speaker 2 (20:17):
Yeah, it's wild.
I've probably watched everydocumentary about it, and
there's a documentary for Spain,there's a documentary in Poland
.
It's all the same story overand, over and over again.

Speaker 1 (20:33):
So, if we thread this as far as spaces of control
right, when we think aboutoverlaying this from people who
are coming from home situationsof high control into a larger
community, in which there arelayers, layers of higher control

(20:55):
and also authority figureswithin those systems that are
able to be predatory, and it andand this is something that is
in the greater context of cultsoverall, so, if you are feeling
ready to kind of step into someof that phase of your journey,

(21:21):
as far as you moved through, youknow what happened to you and
you know, however, you want tocover that, but that's, you were
in a position where you werevulnerable and there was someone
in a position of power andregard.
That is part of this layeringof what you're communicating to
as a child, as like a vessel ofGod, right, in some ways.

(21:50):
Oh gosh, I don't.
I don't know how to finish thatsentence, but I feel like maybe
that's enough words yeah,that's okay.

Speaker 2 (22:02):
I um yeah, and it's.
I apologize because I know it'semotional um.

Speaker 3 (22:10):
Amy, you don't have to apologize.
We are going to do that everytime.
And I also want the listenersto hear this too, because people
who have been victimized neverneed to apologize.
That's part of the narrativethat goes with.
What they've done right Is tomake it feel like you've done
something wrong, but you've donenothing wrong, yeah.

Speaker 2 (22:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (22:33):
So if you can continue.

Speaker 2 (22:34):
Yeah.
So the abuse went on for aboutsix months.
It was March when it ended, butI think the most difficult part
of it was because I had such astrong faith and because I was
vulnerable in that way.
He absolutely weaponized myfaith against me to gain access,

(22:59):
and the way he described whatwas happening was that it was a
prayer and that God had told himto do it.
Prayer and that God had toldhim to do it.
And in my head I have been sodesperate for salvation, so

(23:21):
afraid of going to hell, that itwas a moment where I'm like
well, god recognizes I'mfaithful and he's telling this
priest who is a conduit to God,that's what I'm taught to
believe that what he is doing isprayer and this is like special
right.
And so I wrestled with that.
I wrestled with feeling like itwas wrong but again I've been
told to dampen that out, don'tpay attention to that but also

(23:44):
feeling really special and likemaybe this is my salvation.
The other piece of it and Ifeel like it's it's really hard
to talk about, but I do feellike it's important to talk
about, especially if there areother survivors of sexual abuse,
because I do think it'ssomething that some struggle
with.

(24:05):
I was 12.
I had started puberty prettyearly.
Hormones are going and my bodyreacted sometimes to the stimuli
and it felt good and that wasvery confusing.
And then the other piece of itwas well, if this is the Holy

(24:25):
Spirit moving through me, thatmust be what the Holy Spirit
feels right, right, like I hadnothing to compare it to.
I grew up in a very sexuallyrepressed environment where I
had no sex ed.
I didn't know what washappening to me with sexual in
nature.
I thought it was prayer and Ithought that was the Holy Spirit
.
But I didn't like it and I wasreally beating myself up for not

(24:46):
liking it.
And this was just this tormentfor a long time until I got to a
point where I was suicidal andI had confided in a friend that
I wanted to kill myself and shereported me to the guidance
counselor.
My parents came, took me to anER for a psych eval.
I ended up in an inpatientpediatric psych unit for two

(25:10):
weeks.
In that time I didn't know aboutthis.
In that time my parentsactually went and confronted
this priest and my parents didthe best they could with what
they knew.
They were younger than I am nowwhen this was going on, so I
try to hold a lot of grace forthem for that.
And they went and theyconfronted this priest.

(25:31):
That's a huge deal.
His response was very smarmy.
He actually said to them oh doyou think this isn't the first
time I've been accused of this?
Like you know, your parentsdon't understand I'm trying to
help your kids.
That didn't really satisfytheir curiosity, but I think
they were ashamed enough to belike, okay, we're not going to
push it.

(25:51):
But they went to the Cardinalbecause remember, my dad worked
for Cardinal Law and they satdown and they met with Cardinal
Law and they asked him is thereanything in his history that we
should be concerned about?
And he looked at them and helied and he said no.
Come to find out later.
He had records going back tolike the 80s of accusations
against him.
So I'm in the hospital for twoweeks.

(26:14):
I get out right before Easter.
It's Good Friday and I rememberthis because I fought to get
out because I was so scared ofmissing Easter mass.
And at that mass this priestmade an announcement that he was
going to be leaving and he wasgoing to California to go be a
military chaplain on a militarybase and he was gone the next
day.
So that's kind of what they dothey ship these people up.

(26:39):
It was there were too manyquestions now, like we got to
get rid of them.
So I don't know if I shouldjust go on from here.
Okay, so I don't tell anyonewhat happened.
I keep that to myself.
Um, by the time I get to highschool, I have some new friends

(27:00):
who go to a different church andit's still Catholic, but it's a
different church in the townand they have this youth program
, um, called Life Teen, and Igot program called Life Teen and
I got involved with Life Teen.
Life Teen was a Catholic-basedorganization with the goal to
bring teens closer to Christ,but it definitely leaned more

(27:22):
evangelical.
It's actually reallycontroversial in the Catholic
church, like there are moretraditionalist Catholics that
don't like it.
For that reason, the masseswere really charismatic.
They had a live band like.
They were like three hours long.
I loved it.
I ate it up because it feltlike a different, a different

(27:43):
way to express my faith thatwasn't so ritualistic, um, so
life team would have a massSunday night.
It would usually go on for twoto three hours and then they
would do this thing called alife night after, where they
would do witness talks.
Sometimes they just have apizza party, but they would do
these witness talks where peoplewould come in and talk about

(28:04):
these horrible things that theyhad gone through and how they
found grace in God and how theirreligion and their faith
brought them through.
And sounds great, yeah, butwithin this like context, I
don't.
For anyone who grew up as aChristian, I feel like in the
nineties and early two thousandsit was like a really wild time

(28:26):
because there was such a push toget teens to commit to being
like a Christian soldier, like,um, purity culture was really
huge.
I went to this event called umthe silver ring thing.
My church kind of did a fieldtrip to it and they used a lot

(28:49):
of metaphors about virginity andabout it felt very targeted to
women, like it was more about us, like being pure and how the
best gift we can be give ourhusbands is our virginity.
Um, they would talk about likeyour body being a piece of
chewing gum, like chewed up.
Or my favorite was they wouldtake a piece of scotch tape and

(29:12):
put it on like a piece of feltand every time they put it on,
that was like, oh, this is ifyou have sex and look at, you're
not only dirty but you'retotally useless.
So this is the narrative I'mgetting, and I'm sitting
listening to this, um, um, goingwell, my God, like I'm not a
virgin, like, not by my ownchoice, but like, what does that

(29:35):
mean for me?
What does this mean for me?
Like, am I just damned?
So at the end of that event,they have you, like, do a pledge
, and you get a ring that youcan wear on your, your ring
finger, like your wedding finger, um, saying that you're going
to commit to abstinence beforemarriage.
I did not get that ring.
I was the only person in mygroup and everyone was asking me

(29:59):
why, and I just felt like, oh,I, I'm not comfortable, you know
.

Speaker 3 (30:04):
Um, amy, can I just make one note about this?

Speaker 2 (30:09):
Yes, If you don't mind.

Speaker 3 (30:11):
A lot of what you're talking about and I think this
is something that's alsoprevalent in modern day religion
is how there's a lot of sexistbehavior that happens in it to
take power away from women, fromwomen.

(30:31):
So there's the wholeMadonna-whore complex, which is
where women are expected to bevirginal but at the same time be
sexy, and all this other stuff.
So this is part of whatreligion does to feed into that
complex, but also even hellitself.
I meant to say this earlier.
Even the word hell comes fromthe Scandinavian goddess Hela,
which is pretty well documented.
I mean, they did destroy mostNorth mythology, but from what
remains it does show that thatwas a.

(30:53):
It was a female deity that wasworshiped and they took that and
turned it into a place ofeternal torment, because it all
kind of comes back todisempowering women.
I just wanted to throw that outthere as we were talking about
this.

Speaker 2 (31:05):
Wow, thank you for sharing that with me.
I didn't know that.
And that checks out.
That makes sense.
Yeah, yeah, the sexism, thefeeling like you are responsible
for men's sexuality and theirbehavior, that you don't want to
be a stumbling block for them.
You need to dress in a way thatdoesn't even make them think

(31:29):
about it, because that's theother thing, it's that it's not
just what you do, that's a sin,it's what you think and like,
it's just this constant, likeyou're constantly going through
a minefield of like, oh, likethat was, oh, no, I'm going to
go to hell, I got to go, I gotto go say the rosary, like just
that constant.

Speaker 1 (31:51):
So it makes you not want to think makes you just
want to obey.
Wow.
So, oh yeah, really reallypowerful statement there.
Um.
So, as someone who grew up in ahigh control household, but not
, um, not a religious one, Iwould say that this component

(32:12):
layered together, which might belike a distinguishing feature
of like don't want to think, soyou just want to obey, because
it's so overwhelming to navigatethe chronicity of that internal
self.
You know, it's like fightingagainst loving oneself or being

(32:41):
able to have a healthyrelationship with oneself, and
that being a vehicle to controland that being a vehicle to
control.
So I just wanted to note thatbecause that really stuck out to
me.

Speaker 2 (32:57):
Thank you yeah.

Speaker 3 (33:01):
Amy, is this still an active organization that exists
to this day, the one thatyou're talking about?

Speaker 2 (33:06):
It's active.
I think it's changed a littlebit.
The person the priest whofounded it was actually he's
excommunicated from the church.
Um, he was actually accused ofsexual misconduct as well, um,
but he got.
He didn't get excommunicatedfor that because they don't
really that's not like a concern.
He got excommunicated becausehe started this, um, like a

(33:30):
schism.
He started this praise andworship center that was not
catholic and they viewed that asa comp competing like and they
went you're out of here sosexual abuse is okay, just don't
compete.
That's the message matt if youlook at the, the canon law about
this and they purposefully usevery difficult language.

(33:53):
But if you really look at itand you look at the different
things that can get youexcommunicated or laicized or
whatever it is, that abuse ofchildren or anybody is not even
in there.
It's the number one issue is donot bring like bad press to the
church number one, whatever youdo.

(34:14):
That's it.
So, if you can, I'm like publicenemy number one of the
catholic church and I'm veryproud of that.

Speaker 3 (34:25):
Yeah, yeah, love that um so how did you get out of
that group that you were in, thethe teen one, or did you?

Speaker 2 (34:39):
it took a long time.
Um, I actually I was all theway into my early twenties and I
was still into it.
I wanted to be one of thepeople the adult volunteers who
like kind of run it are calledcore members.
I wanted to be a core member.
I was still in it.

(35:00):
I think that I was just.
I think I had cracks in thefacade of my faith.
But I think my response to thatwas to double down and I had a
lot of cognitive dissonance andI just kind of kept going in
stronger In the course.
Like while I was in high school, while I was in this program, I

(35:23):
ended up telling somebody whathappened.
They were it was my youthminister, they were a mandatory
reporter, but they reported itto the church.
Um, so I can talk a little bitabout what that process was like
.

Speaker 3 (35:40):
Um, to give a little behind the scenes.

Speaker 2 (35:43):
Yeah, so I I also think I need to talk about why I
told somebody, because this islike a really common thing that
happens in these youth programs,where they kind of push you
physically beyond your limits.
They tend to use liketechniques like sleep
deprivation to get you into avery vulnerable place

(36:05):
emotionally and then they likepounce on that moment by doing
like let's do a Eucharisticadoration now, where we all sit
in front of the monstrance withthe host and it's Jesus and
we're all crying our eyes out,we're fainting and it's like, oh
, it's the Holy spirit.
Um, I participated in a lock-inat my church and it was we were
fasting for East Timor.

(36:26):
So it was like in the 90 early,two thousands, whenever there
was a lot of stuff going on overthere and it wasn't we were
fasting.
The point of it was like we'regoing to suffer and give up our
suffering to God for the peopleof East Timor.
That was the mindset.

(36:46):
So I was at this lock-in.
I was very hungry, I was verytired.
We were sleeping on this likehard linoleum church basement
floor.
I couldn't sleep.
My youth minister was like, hey,what's wrong?
I ended up talking to her inthe stairwell and I confided in
her because I felt like she hada very similar faith to me, like
I felt like she was very muchon the same page and it was

(37:09):
really me asking like hey, isthis like a form of prayer?
Like I'm not sure.
And the more I talked, the moreI watched her like facial
expression change and I justkind of was like oh crap, like
it's not.
And that's how it came out.
I I think if I weren't in thatsituation I wouldn't have told
anyone.
But if I weren't in thatsituation I wouldn't have told

(37:33):
anyone.
Um, but I did, and she reportedit to the church.
They told my parents, um, likea week later I get up to go to
school, it's like Monday morning, and my mom just says we're not
going, you're not going toschool.
I know, I know what happenedand you need to go talk to
somebody at the church.
So the first person I talked to, father Charles Higgins.

(37:54):
I sat alone in a room with apriest wearing the Roman collar,
which I hadn't said this.
But the priest who ran the LifeTeam program never wore a Roman
collar.
That's the white collar thatpriests wear.
So I hadn't seen one in a whileand it is very much a trigger
for me.
I don't think I can even see itnow without having a response.

(38:15):
So he was asking me a lot ofpersonal questions about what
had happened.
You know, where did he touchyou?
Just very detailed questions, Iknow he asked me to describe
the room, um, and then I kind ofdissociated and I don't really
remember a lot more of thatmeeting.
When we left he turned to myparents and said you know, hey,

(38:36):
I believe her, we're going to dowhat we can.
And remember my dad worked atthe archdiocese.
He knew father Higgins likepersonally.
He saw him every day.
So in the meantime I was alsogot set up with like a rape
crisis counselor who waswonderful.
She was also a mandatoryreporter, but she actually

(38:58):
reported it to the police.
So now the DA's office isinvolved.
Then two weeks later I getcalled in to talk to someone at
the church again, and this timeit was a nun, sister Rita
McCarthy and I'm saying theirnames because I want their names
to be known.

Speaker 3 (39:15):
Absolutely yeah.

Speaker 2 (39:18):
Yes, thank you.
We sat in this room with thislong table, all these chairs,
and she was across from me.
It was very dark, I rememberthat, very intimidating, and the
first thing she had me do wassign a release form.
To talk to this counselor thatI had been seeing my parents
weren't there.
She had me sign this.
I didn't know what I wassigning.

(39:39):
She said I had to.
She didn't describe it, andthen the line of questionings
were.
It started with you know well,did you maybe have a crush on
him?
Did you?
Is it possible?
You kind of liked it, didn'tyou?
And, like I had said before,that was something I really
struggled with and I waspanicking, like I'm like oh God,

(40:03):
like she knows, and then shesaid to me what did you do?
And I was like I don't, whatare you talking about?
What did I do?
I just sat there and she saysno, amy, what did you do to
seduce him?
And even in my I was 15 at thetime, even in like this 15
traumatized, indoctrinated brain.

(40:23):
I knew that that was messed upand I shut the conversation down
and I left and I said I'm nottalking to anyone else uh, snaps
to that 15 year old in you,right, yeah, uh.

Speaker 1 (40:40):
That is a powerful moment and I think that's why
every parent should communicateto their children that if they
feel uncomfortable with what anadult who is talking to them
alone is in that line ofquestioning, to do exactly what?

(41:02):
That 50, what you did at 15 toshut that down, say no and leave
.
That was that yeah that's amyit's.

Speaker 3 (41:15):
It's hard to listen.
I mean, you know, obviously,because I know you and I care
about you.
So it's even harder to listenwhen you have a personal
connection to somebody becauseof how much they re-victimized
you over and over and over again.
It's such a microcosm of howsociety handles sexual abuse all
over the place, because at onepoint in time, this is how
police interviewed victims aswell, not just the church, and

(41:37):
this is still to this daysometimes how we talk about
victims and everything.
It's really disturbing.
So thank you for sharing this.
I think it's important forpeople to hear.
So thank you for being thisvulnerable, disturbing.
So thank you for sharing this.
I think it's important forpeople to hear.

Speaker 2 (41:54):
So thank you for being this vulnerable.
Yeah, Thank you for giving methe space to tell this story,
Because it's not just me.
This happened to so many otherpeople just looking at the
Catholic church and it's thesame narrative.
That's what's so frustrating.
It's that's the narrativenarrative.
That's what's so frustrating.
It's that's the narrative.
The church has a very bigpowerhouse of attorneys.

(42:15):
Um, once they found out thatthis had been reported to the DA
, they began like theirinvestigation of interviewing
people at my like originalchurch that I hadn't been
involved in trying to get anyinformation about me to
discredit me.
That was the point, and peoplein my church knew I was in a

(42:36):
psych hospital.
So the narrative there was thatI was a very troubled girl,
that I struggled with demons andthat one of them said I was a
devil worshiper because sheoverheard me talking about doing
a Ouija board at a friend'sbirthday party.
I'm like what A 13-year-oldhasn about doing a Ouija board
at like a friend's birthdayparty.

Speaker 3 (42:54):
I'm like what 13 year old, hasn't done a Ouija board.
That somehow made me a devilworshiper.
It's interesting how they twistthe narrative, though right,
because if you think about itfrom a different perspective, it
would a hundred percent makesense that you went inpatient to
get help because you weresexually abused.
That would actually make moresense than using it the other
way around, but they will twistanything they can to make it
sound like they're doing what'sright.

Speaker 2 (43:16):
And I think you know, I think part of that too is
that a lot of these peoplethey're parishioners but they've
also been indoctrinated andconditioned to believe that
priests are the conduits to Godand that they can do no wrong.
So I think it's for their owncognitive dissonance.
They have to convincethemselves that I was the
problem, that I must have donesomething, but that was, you

(43:37):
know, I'm 15.
And so now this is like in mytown, like this is how I'm
viewed this troubled child.
And around the same time thatall this was happening, the
Boston Globe was starting theirinvestigation on Father Gagan,
that whole thing, and they werehaving trouble accessing files.
Well, because the DA knew aboutsomething happening with me,

(44:02):
that there was this complaint,the federal government I'm sorry
, I got distracted the federalgovernment because he got sent
to a military base.
He was now on like he was withthe federal government.
They got a letter from CardinalLaw saying like, hey, he's safe

(44:22):
to work with kids, no concerns,blah, blah, blah.
So they were suing to get hisrecords released.
And because they sued andbecause they won, the Boston
Globe then had access to all ofthese records.
And that's really like how thatdoor opened and how so much
stuff got made known about likewhat exactly was happening.

(44:42):
So the Boston Globe did reachout to my family so my story is
in there.
Obviously my name's not used.
But even in these newspaperarticles because you know they
get the, they get input fromeverybody that I was still
portrayed as this troubled girl.

(45:03):
And you know, I'm 15, I'm 16.
I'm seeing, like thesenewspaper articles about me just
talking about me that way, andI think that's really where I
just kind of went down this roadof self-destruction because I
felt like I had such a visceralhatred for myself and, yeah,

(45:27):
just a real hatred for myself.

Speaker 1 (45:34):
I'm going to say something here about the
importance of being with peoplewho share their stories of abuse
.
If someone has deigned that youfeel safe enough to them to
communicate that story, keepyour compassion high and keep

(46:01):
your compassion with them.
Don't let them go througheverything alone, because what
you're describing, what allowsthat feeling, that misplaced
feeling of hatred, to go, expand, so to expand within yourself,
is the absence of community, andthat community can just be

(46:24):
another person that says this isnot yours to carry, that says
this is not yours to carry right, and that can point out the
wrongness with the greatersystemic and societal response
that you're experiencing.
And so I just really want toemphasize this, because what we,
what we we've have, like howmany layers of, of isolation

(46:48):
through each of these points intimes of people whose priority
is everywhere else than theperson who was most impacted,
and, even more so, thatviolation of the person being a
child.
So I really wanted to say thisbecause if we are people who are

(47:09):
responding to trauma orhistoric things that have
happened, that the lack ofaccountability, right, and the
lack of, we see this mirrored inmany scales in between
interpersonal to within thecontext of, of this particular
group, to a national level to aglobal level, of when we've put

(47:30):
our focus on everything but thelife and the human beings that
have directly survived somethingand leave them in isolation to
address it.
The long-term consequences ofthat are carried more and more

(47:51):
by the person who experiencedsomething that requires healing
and support, and I'm just sodisappointed and frustrated and
angry because I also know likehow this, just like you, you
said it's not just you, it it'shappened so many times and we're

(48:14):
trying to break those cyclesand thank you for being part of
of that goal.

Speaker 3 (48:21):
Amy, would you be willing to do like a two-part
episode, because I I I want youto finish a story, because I
think that's really relevant,like super important, and then
we could do an episode about howyou got out of it, like how and
how you continue to process it,because I don't want you to be
pressed for time and I thinkthere's so much for you to talk
about.
So are you okay with that?

Speaker 2 (48:42):
I am, yeah, thanks.
Thank you for giving me thetime to do that, because it is.

Speaker 3 (48:46):
It's so important.
It's so important.
So if do you want to continueyour story about like, how, like
, where you went from that point?

Speaker 2 (48:55):
sure I can, um, kind of talk until up to the point
that I left life team, yeah, um,because I didn't deconstruct
until another like 15 yearsafter that.
So, um, you know, I like that.
You said this about communityand the need for that.
Um, I think that's why I leanedso heavily into the life team

(49:18):
program, cause that was mycommunity and that was my
support.
Even if I wasn't explicitlytalking about this, it was.
You know, I got a lot out of it.
It was really the other partabout Life Teen that was very
different was the music, and I'mI am a musician and I'm a
singer and I actually wrote acouple contemporary Christian

(49:41):
songs that are very cringy nowwhen I look back.
But I just I was so moved by it, but, but I think that's
deliberate.
You know, I think it's a verymuch like they're manufacturing
this like spiritual experiencethat you feel like you're just
like so close with God and, ohmy gosh, um, but you can get
that same feeling, that samedopamine release, when you go to

(50:02):
a live concert.
You know it's it's verymanipulative and um, anyway,
that was just a side note.
So I was involved with lifeteen.
I did, um, I did a lot ofretreats with them.
I, even I, even when I was 19,18 or 19, I was like a, a leader

(50:25):
for a retreat for thatconfirmation class.
They, they were like in 10thgrade and I did a witness talk
and, oh God, I talked about whathappened.
But I talked about it and likeit was so vacuous, because
usually a witness talk is youtalk about this horrible thing
that happened to you and thenyou talk about finding God and

(50:47):
how he helped you througheverything.
And it was, I was, I was lyingthrough my teeth because I
didn't find God in that I.
It was more like I needed toprove to myself that I was still
a good Catholic and that I oh,I'm not going to let this shake
my faith and you know, justtrying to be the good Catholic

(51:07):
girl that I always wanted to be,that I always wanted people to
see me as.
But I struggled and I this wasaround the same time that I
started questioning my sexualityand I had a crush on this girl
and then her and I starteddating and, um, as I was

(51:28):
simultaneously like training tobe a core member, um, I was also
kind of in this relationshipwith this woman, because I don't
remember explicit likehomophobic comments being made
in the life team program.
I always thought it leaned alittle more liberal, but I think
they just avoided it altogetherto not like they wanted

(51:49):
teenagers to be involved and Ithink they knew that wasn't a
popular opinion to have.
But I was pulled aside by likethe adults and basically told
that I can't be a core member, Ican't be a representative of
their organization if I'm gay ordating a woman.
Like that can't happen.
And so I pretty much got pushedaway and I lost that community

(52:15):
and I think from there I just Ibecame an alcoholic and that's
kind of like where that goes,and then it's just really bad
self-destruction for 15 yearsuntil I finally get to a point
where I deconstruct.
So I don't know if that's likea good place to kind of end it

(52:39):
or what your thoughts are.

Speaker 3 (52:42):
Well, also to add to that, when you're talking about
being, you know, having acertain struggling with
alcoholism and being somebodywho, as you said, was doing like
bad, self-destructive stuff,those are also normal responses
to an abnormal scenario, right?
So I mean, it's not, those wereforced on you.
That wasn't something.

(53:03):
You didn't just wake up onemorning and say like, hey, I
want to become an alcoholic.
It didn't happen like that,like you were given this level
of trauma and you know what'swhat's.
I think this may actually helpyou to hear this too.
Like I had a friend who went toa very similar organization that
started with teen as well andit's still active right now and

(53:25):
I'm sure you probably know whatit is and they're national and
he was in I think he was inTennessee or Kentucky.
He reported getting raped theremultiple times and I have worked
with multiple clients who werepart of that same organization
in different states and Iremember one of them talking
about being forced to go out inthe woods and fast for so many

(53:46):
days and she identified asbisexual and they told her that
it was sins of the flesh andthat she was going to be
punished and they gang raped herrepeatedly.
I mean, these are all likestories to like, like rape the
gay out of her, basically andthese are stories I've heard
over and over and over againfrom different people who are in
those types of scenarios.
So your story is certainlyshared by many, many, and I

(54:09):
think it's important to forpeople to hear that.
And it became so upsetting thatshe actually started
hallucinating about demons.
She said at one point she wason the bus and everybody on the
bus turned into demons becauseit had been so like drilled into
her head that she like theregular population, where all

(54:29):
these like awful, evil entitiesand only those who were
following the way of god werewere, you know, saved or good
people.
So, yeah, it's, it's, it's soawful and I'm glad that you're
sharing that.

Speaker 1 (54:46):
I think that there's an important like how should I
say the summary?
Right, when we put these thingsbeyond into frameworks of
control, dominance,dehumanization and abuse of

(55:09):
authority?
Right, or any sort of whatwould you call pedestalization.
Right, when you said earlierthat these individuals are this
position of authority, thispriest of authority is a vessel
of God and can do no wrong?

(55:31):
Right, and you put that andlike.
I don't know, doesn't that sounda little close to idolatry?
Right, like and this is thepoint that is brought up very
regularly like as the wholething idolatry and my
understanding that which Ipreserve the right to be
completely wrong, but like,because I'm not a theologian,
but what I have come tounderstand from people like

(55:54):
yourself as well as other peoplewho study this, is a concept of
idolatry.
The reason for that being likea warning and a sin is the
concept is, when we take a humanbeing and attribute the
inability to do wrong that theyare always going to be right,
you create a situation wheresomeone can commit the most

(56:18):
horrific crimes and that cancontinue to exist in the world
and that can continue toproliferate because there is no
accountability.
So like, that is the problemwith idolatry, not like
worshiping a clay figure.
Right, that's that's.
That's my assessment of thismatter is that the issue with

(56:39):
idolatry is not, you know,worshiping a figure or some
other image.
It's the concept of creatingsomeone who can do horrible
things with impunity yes, withno consequence no consequence.
Yeah, right, and this is when,as a type of person, that I am

(57:04):
looking at things on differentscales.
You know where we can see thisreflected in interpersonal
relationships.
When Matthew was bringing upsituations of domestic violence
and control in intimaterelationships, you talking about
this in the context of acommunity structure, in the,

(57:26):
both religious cults or otherthings, there are also other
cult following.
So I do recommend the podcastconspirituality as far as a
podcast of a bunch of guys thatgo through this kind of cult
mindset and deconstruct, becausewe can see it in the health in

(57:47):
the um, health quote, healthgurus sector, right, like how,
how we engage with this conceptof when, when people are like,
oh well, this person can't bewrong, therefore any critique
towards this person is going tobe punished, right, we can see
this overlaid in a lot of things.
So I think that us taking thisconcept of what would make

(58:12):
people more willing to protectpeople who are committing sexual
abuse of children, whether ornot that's religious power or
monetary power or politicalpower- I also wonder about the

(58:33):
but to add to that I wonderabout, like, when people go into
positions of powerintentionally, particularly in
religious groups, if it draws acertain type or of character.

Speaker 3 (58:43):
Because I grew up catholic as well, I was out of
it by the time I was 12, becauseit just it didn't like none of
it resonated with me and Ithought this is all kind of BS.
But I did, you know, I, I I nowidentify as a pagan.
So that's when I startedexploring paganism and I
remember as a young adult tryingto find local pagan groups and
I did find one that was run by aguy and he tried to use his

(59:07):
position of power to engage,like to make the group engage in
sexual activities.
But this is a completelydifferent religion.
That's breaking away fromorganized resolutions.
I I think it draws in aparticular type of person.
So then I left that veryquickly because I was like this
is not cool.
And I remember trying to juststart a group on my own where
people could come and talk abouttheir feelings and like their

(59:28):
thoughts about paganism, andpeople specifically saying to me
I don't know what to think,tell me what to think.
And I was like I'm not going totell you what to think, like
you have to think about this onyour own.
So I think that it draws in acertain type of person that uses
that power to manipulate people.

Speaker 2 (59:46):
Absolutely.
I'm glad you said that, becausepeople often, when talking
about specific, just theCatholic church but I know what
happens everywhere of well, why,why is this so prevalent?
Is it because priests can't getmarried?
Is it because they can't havesex?
And I just like, well, let'sthink, let's think that out
People who are married married,you know, could also abuse

(01:00:09):
children.
It has nothing to do with that.
It has to do with that this isa person who is sexually
attracted to children and thatwill use that position of power
to harm them.
And I do think that it's notthat the catholic church creates
pedophiles.
I think it attracts thembecause they know I'm going to
have access to children, I'mgoing to have parents who are

(01:00:29):
going to trust me implicitly,I'm going to have an institution
that will protect me from anykind of like legal consequences
of this.
I am going to be completelyprotected and it's going to be
really easy to have access,because you already have all
these kids who have already beenbrainwashed and already
effectively been groomed forthis.

(01:00:50):
So I do think it attractsabsolutely I agree with you.

Speaker 3 (01:00:55):
Well said, amy.
I just did a live with a guythat I met on tiktok erica, you
would love him.
His name is ari and he ispakistani.
He lives in the united Statesand he is awesome.
He posts a lot of stuff aboutPalestine and he's like calling
out.
He actually debated Zionist theother day and it was fantastic.
I'm going to put the link tohis TikTok video in the notes.
We were talking about how, tome and this is just my opinion I

(01:01:21):
think it's better for people towant to do good because they
want to do good, not becausethey're afraid of punishment.
And I think the whole conceptof you need to be good because
if you're not good, you're goingto be eternally damned is not
exactly the way to build empathyor to get people to have a
great moral compass, becausethen it's about fear of

(01:01:41):
punishment.
It's actually not aboutbecoming a good person and about
just being nice because youwant to be nice yeah, absolutely
.

Speaker 2 (01:01:52):
I think there's that like debate of like do you need
religion to have morality?
And it's like I know, like Idon't kill people because I
don't want to kill people,exactly not because like I'm
afraid that I'm gonna burn inhell, like it's.
That's, that does not haveanything to do with it let me
actually.

Speaker 1 (01:02:11):
There's a recent study that came out not too long
ago, um, about how, um,actually, people who are
agnostic or atheist have ahigher percentage rate of like
ethical behavior.
Um, in the context, hang on asecond before I let me see if I

(01:02:34):
can look.
That is or um, um and I'm not.
I don't want that.
I don't want that to sound likecontentious, like it probably
does, but I think that it's veryimportant that this is not a
commentary on religion overall,but it is definitely a
commentary on how very oftenpeople will perceive religion

(01:02:58):
with someone who practices acertain form of religion as
somehow more ethical compared topeople without that's.

Speaker 3 (01:03:07):
There's actually scientific evidence and studies
to show that that is not areality um, while you're looking
for that, erica, because we canput that, when you find it,
just link it to me, we'll put itin the notes.
I often wonder I've questionedthis myself if the people who
claim to be the most religiouseven believe in what they're
talking about anyway.
If it is just about control andthey know it's about control I

(01:03:28):
mean again we can talk aboutwhat's happening in Palestine
and Gaza right now.
I mean the whole thing isfunded by the religious belief
that one group is better thananother group, et cetera, and
the justification that they canthen kill all these people.
I mean that's all based inreligion, right?
I mean, this is what we've seenplay out in history over and,
over and over again, and I justsaw you know who hind is, right?

(01:03:51):
Um, amy hind is the little girlthat was killed in the car with
her family in gaza, where shewas like hit with like 300 and
something bullets.
The car was there was becausethere's a movie or documentary
that just came out about her andone of the people was referring
to her not in the documentary,but one of the reporters was
referring to her as a woman.
She was a five-year-old girl.

(01:04:11):
But that's what they do.
They spin the narrative andthey say like, oh, this woman,
because then it elicits lesscompassion than calling her a
five-year-old girl, which iswhat she was.
And then when they're talkingabout there's been quite a few
articles about this when they'retalking about these horrific
terrorist IDF soldiers that arekilling people, they refer to
them as young girls.
When they get killed, theychange the whole narrative

(01:04:33):
around to make it better, right?
So I think that's probably agood time for us to do our oh
actually, I want to say one morething.
So when you were talking aboutand represented by a deer and
the hunt and all that stuff, wasalso referred to as Lucina,

(01:05:17):
which is referencing to thelight.
The light, the lightbringer andthat is where the word Lucifer
is loosely related was they tookher worship and they made
Lucifer the lightbrer into thisawful thing.
And there's actually areference in the bible about the
fallen angel falling in thetemple of euphius, which was one
of the seven wonders of theworld, which was the temple of
artemis, of euphius, which wasthe multi-breasted goddess who

(01:05:38):
nurtured the world.
So there's so many differentnuances of where they've taken
female divinity and they haveturned it into like demonic
practice, because they try toget rid of women's spirituality
yeah, I think please like shareas much information you have on
that with me, because thatreally fascinates me I'm going

(01:05:59):
to put links to some articles inthe show notes as well.
Um, but yeah, I mean, I've beenstudying that for decades, so
that's why I said a lot of it'skind of off the top of my head,
but I did look up some articlesabout it.

Speaker 1 (01:06:09):
I'll send them to you so I do actually have to issue
a retraction and a correction sothat it's basically very
contentious in the research.
We'll put it that way.
So so, and I believe there aresome discussions about whether

(01:06:30):
or not having this conversationbetween altruism and
discrimination.
I think that's like what we canpull from this that has more
literature associated with it asfar as we have to ask questions
about altruism versusdiscrimination and also how

(01:06:53):
universal compassion, universallove rather than a particular
religious, is the discussionthat needs to be had.
So apologies to our listenersfor that initial

(01:07:15):
misrepresentation, and so Ithink that I would probably have
to spend some more time diggingaround, but that is the
question that I think needs tobe asked and also can be a
question that we hold as we'reexamining these stories about
altruism and humanist forwardresponses and accountability.

(01:07:37):
Um, and this question of howdoes discrimination and um
isolation, isolationism orrejection, taking someone who is
a survivor of a traumaticexperience and then pushing them
out of a community space andrecognizing the harm that comes

(01:08:00):
from that type of punitive groupthink actions, and I think
that's very important for peopleto be thinking about.

Speaker 3 (01:08:10):
Definitely.
Thank you.
So, amy, we will do a part twothen, and I really appreciate
that.
And to wrap up, we arededicating part of the end of
every episode to Palestiniansthat have been murdered by the
IDF.
So I just saw this on TikTokthe other day.
I looked it up and what'sinteresting is I had to go

(01:08:32):
through a couple of articles,because the original one I
looked up was npr, and npr, ofcourse, links it back to october
7th, and the minute I see thatI shut down the article because
I'm like it's just propaganda bsall over again.
So pbs actually did a fairlydecent job on this, so I'll link
their article to it.
I apologize if I get theperson's name wrong, but this

(01:08:54):
was two.
One was a Palestinian Americanand the other was a Palestinian,
who were beaten to death.
The IDF prevented the ambulanceto get there for three hours
until they were killed, and thenames are the Palestinian

(01:09:16):
American was I'm so going tobutcher this Saifullah Kamal
Musallat I don't know if that'seven close.
And the Palestinian person thatwas 23-year-old that was killed
was Mohammed Rezek HusseinAl-Shalabi, but I will put that
in the show notes as well.

(01:09:37):
It's a brutal story.
It is, and of course, it's justpar for the course with what
the IDF is doing.
So again, I say this very, verymuch so every single day If you
are not talking about thegenocide every day and if you
are not talking about thePalestinian plight, you are
complicit in genocide.

(01:09:58):
There is no such thing asneutrality right now.
Either you're fighting it oryou're part of it in the end.

Speaker 1 (01:10:03):
That's my two cents on it you're part of it in the
end.
That's my two cents on it, um.
So I just want to note, youknow I'm going to emphasize, um,
it also goes by saif, so, um, Iwas part of organizing a vigil,
um and facilitating some otherorganizers in my town to hold a
community vigil for saif.
Saif is not the only Americanin the West Bank or Gaza who has

(01:10:29):
been killed by either the IDFor Israeli settler terrorism.

Speaker 3 (01:10:40):
Erica, I'm so glad you added the word terrorism on,
because I think even when weuse the word settler, it is just
changing the narrative, becausethey're not settlers, they're
terrorists.
No, they're invaders.
They're actually invaders,they're war criminals.
Right, exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:10:56):
The settlements are illegal.
They're not even settlementsright are violent people who are
coming in, who kill people, whoyou know engage in stealing

(01:11:17):
livestock, they contaminatewater supplies, like it's
longstanding, and even these, sothese stories come up.
So Saif was from Florida and inaddition to that, there are
other Palestinian American kidswho are being held in IOLF

(01:11:39):
torture camps.
Basically there's currently Ithink I believe he's 16.
Um, I have to look up the name.
We're going to have to linkthis Um, but it's it's.
It's really important tounderstand that if American
citizens in the West Bank andGaza are not cared about by our

(01:12:02):
government, this communicatesthat our citizens are less, our
lives are less valuable to ourgovernment than the lives of a
military like like the military.

(01:12:23):
The reason it's money and it'smoney and it's military money
and the reason why Americancitizens, in addition to
Palestinians, are being murderedin these spaces are for weapons
testing and manufacturing, forthe development of surveillance

(01:12:44):
technology that is now literallybeing deployed in our own
country.
I live in Arizona, I'm at aborder state.
The surveillance technologythat is from Israel is being
deployed in Arizona and inborder states.
So it is no joke when we saythat American citizens

(01:13:06):
experiencing this type ofviolence, who are getting killed
by the IOF and there's noaccountability means that
American citizen lives do notmatter to the Israeli government
or our own.

Speaker 3 (01:13:19):
That is really important.
But I think they've made thatabundantly clear.
I mean all of ourpoliticians've made that
abundantly clear.
I mean all of our politicianshave made that abundantly clear.
There's a woman God I can'tremember who it was that said
that America, she's an Americanpolitician and she said America
is the greatest country in theworld Ooh, second to Israel,
right.
So I mean I think they've madeit very, very, very clear.

(01:13:40):
I mean, you see that, from thehomelessness in this country
that's on the rise and all ofthe other things, healthcare out
of control, they don't careabout the American citizens.
They don't, and they haven't ina long time.
It is all about funding a warmachine to take over the Middle
East, and that's what it's about.
And the more we dehumanize thePalestinians which is what

(01:14:02):
people are doing the easier itis going to be to do that
narrative.
But they don't.
I mean we're going to go to warand not them.
They're going to send oursoldiers out there, right, our
kids, that's what they're goingto do.
So everybody out there needs tobe fighting against this.
I mean you can't.
If we go back to Amy, all ofthe stuff that you just talked
about, right, you could argue,religion is part of that
surveillance state.
I mean, think about the wholelike elf on the shelf thing that

(01:14:22):
they're doing now.
Right, You're getting peopleused to the fact that there's
something in your house that'sgoing to be watching you all the
time, just like religion, Imean.
That is all the same narrative.
It grooms us for a police state.

Speaker 2 (01:14:36):
Yeah, absolutely.
I feel that what religion doesis it makes you comfortable with
fascism, it makes youcomfortable with
authoritarianism, because youare told what to do, what to
think, what to say, how to dress, who to sleep with, when to
sleep with them.
You're told that askingquestions is wrong.

(01:14:57):
I mean, that's authoritarianism, that's what that is, and I
think it's making peoplecomfortable with that that they
don't know how to do criticalthinking.
They need that black and white.

Speaker 3 (01:15:14):
This has been a really powerful episode, really
powerful.
So for all the people out therelistening, take care of
yourself after this episode yeahTake a deep breath.
Same with you, amy too.
Thank you so much, and thenwe'll set up a time to do a
second part of this so that wecan talk about how you did the
deprogramming and where that waslike.
So thank you again.

(01:15:34):
I know our listeners are goingto love everything you said, and
you know, again, I can't thankyou enough.
So thank you, thank you andthank you, erica, as always, for
being amazing.

Speaker 1 (01:15:45):
And thank you, Matt, for creating this space and
continuing to do this and havethese important conversations.
And if you're not listening topodcasts that have this type of
talking about serious things,there are plenty out there.
Keep on.

(01:16:07):
But make sure you continue tolisten to us uh, you know, make
sure that you're listening tothings and sharing it forward,
because people need to be havingthese types of conversations
and people need to learn how torecognize, how to maintain their
internal freedom from externaldominant spaces.
And then you know how we canalso externally express that as

(01:16:30):
long as we possibly can.

Speaker 3 (01:16:32):
Thank you, Thank you everybody, and thank you again

(01:16:56):
for listening.
This is just a reminder that nopart of this podcast can be
duplicated or copied withoutwritten consent from either
myself or Wendy.
Thank you again.