May 26, 2025 • 61 mins
Matt and Erika explore how people in compassion-based professions navigate feelings of helplessness when confronted with systemic barriers and limitations beyond their control.
• The challenges of working in compassion-based professions (healthcare, teaching, social work, veterinary medicine) within systems that often prioritize profit over people
• America's dysfunctional relationship with grief and death as a "death-defying society"
• The importance of radical acceptance – acknowledging limitations while still taking meaningful action
• Why our positive impacts often ripple outward in ways we'll never witness
• How to recognize early warning signs of burnout before reaching complete exhaustion
• The critical importance of human connection in preventing isolation and burnout
• Using humor as a powerful coping mechanism during difficult times
• Finding meaning in incremental progress when systemic change seems impossible
We encourage listeners to seek community events related to causes you care about - these connections can provide both emotional support and practical avenues for action. Remember that every small positive interaction creates meaningful change, even when you don't see the results immediately.
SOCIAL ISOLATION, LONELINESS, AND MEN'S HEALTH - PMC
The Hidden Costs of Men’s Social Isolation | Scientific American
Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!):
https://uppbeat.io/t/hartzmann/no-time-to-die
License code: S4CEQWLNQXVZUMU4
Artwork and logo design by Misty Rae.
Special thanks to Joanna Roux for editing help.
Special thanks to the listeners and all the wonderful people who helped listen to and provide feedback on the episode's prerelease.
Please feel free to email Matt topics or suggestions, questions or feedback.
Matt@unitedstatesofPTSD.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
This podcast is not intended to serve as therapeutic
advice or to replace anyprofessional treatment.
These opinions belong to us anddo not reflect any company or
agency.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Hello everybody and welcome back to another episode
of the United States of PTSD.
I have back with me Erica.
Welcome again.
Erica Love having you here.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
I love being here, hey, everyone.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
And Erica, you have an awesome topic for today, so
Okay, yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
So today Matt and I were planning on doing an
episode about something that thetwo of us could have a general
conversation on, and that'sbecause sometimes, when we're
dealing with these, withscheduling on interviews and all
these things and the topicswe're talking about, sometimes
(01:04):
it's nice to just take a littlepause and have something a
little bit more straightforwardto have our brains work on.
So today we're going to talkabout dealing with feeling
helpless.
It's something that both Mattand I have some personal
familiarity with with our work,and also it's something that
(01:27):
exists pretty prominently in theworld.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
I think this is and this is such a great topic,
erica, because everybody canrelate to this, and not even on
like a global scale, and youthink about something like
parenting, you know, and howparents are helpless over some
of the things that their kids do, and it is something that
touches all of us, whether it'sminor or whether it's something
as significant as a genocidethat's happening, but this is
(01:52):
something that every individualhas experienced at some point in
their life.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Yeah, and we we experience it in different ways,
also in relation to what somepeople would call positionality
right, Like the distinction ofif you're a child depending on
your class, status or yourgender or where you are in this
(02:18):
way, of how systems willapproach you.
And in some ways, some of thisis also related to like control
and power.
When we feel we have control,or like autonomy of ourselves
and our path, that can be a veryempowering thing.
(02:40):
And when we're navigating, thefact that there's something that
we cannot supersede, that islike an immovable object in the
scenario that we have to address.
Like there's, that can bereally difficult for a lot of
people to navigate.
I know I struggle with it a lotlot.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
That's an interesting dichotomy too, when you think
about when you do have powerover something and you're, you
know it and there was a sense ofobviously being empowered.
But also the flip side of thatis true too is when you realize
that a lot of times control isan illusion, and if we can
accept control as an illusion, Imean that's the fundamental
belief behind addictiontreatment is that you have to
accept that you don't have anycontrol.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
And when you're working on trying to influence a
path, when we have arelationship or more than one
(03:52):
person involved in the outcome.
So, for example, for youworking with patients about
making decisions or behaviorsthat they're working on shifting
or reframing things.
For me as a veterinarian, youknow I have a triangle where I
(04:13):
have the client and the patientand my patient I'm advocating
for, and then there arelimitations to what I can, that,
what I can convince otherpeople to partner with me on.
You know, in some ways, whatMatt and I were discussing about
this topic, because there aredifferent ways that we can
(04:35):
approach this.
We're talking about teachers,social workers, community
members that are involved intheir community, doctors, mental
health care workers, animalcare workers like people who are
involved in compassion-basedprofessions that are
(04:55):
experiencing and this is myopinion.
Some people would say there'senough evidence to back this up
a relatively compassionlesssystem.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
I would say there's lots of evidence to back that up
.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Yeah, lots of evidence so much evidence and,
yeah, so part of theconversation that we're having
today is how do we, ascompassion-filled people who
have devoted ourselves tocompassion-based professions,
(05:36):
how do we navigate thathelplessness when we're
navigating compassionlesssystems of power?
Speaker 2 (05:45):
That's a heavy topic, right.
I mean we could certainly.
There's so much to say aboutthat.
I can give you one example thatcame to my mind, erica, when
you were talking about thecompassionless society.
When I was working for a majorhospital, there was a staff
member that I was really reallygood friends with, wonderful
woman, super compassionate, justan amazing person, and she had
(06:07):
actually done a fundraiser forthe hospital.
So she had raised a significantamount of money by this thing
called Swim Across America,where they like swim, like out
to the ocean and then they getsponsors for that.
And the reason she had donethat was because she got
diagnosed with stage four lungcancer.
So now she had worked for thefacility for I want to say, like
15 years, maybe a little bitmore than that, and I know she
(06:30):
had gone out a couple of timesfor treatment and then she came
back and there was lots ofpositive movement.
But then she had gone out athird time and she had passed
away and we had found out fromone of her daughters had posted
it on Facebook, so that's kindof how we found out.
And I remember the staff wasdevastated, the clients were
(06:51):
devastated and I reached out tomy boss because at the time I
was the acting director butwasn't actually being paid to be
the director.
You know that kind of likestupid stuff.
And I had said listen, thestaff is really upset, the
clients are really upset, can weclose down today?
And it was like mid-afternoonand the response I got back was
(07:13):
sure, you did know she was goingto die, didn't you?
And then another response I gotfrom our other manager when I
let her know she said chin up,it'll get better.
And I was like, literally, I washorrified by the response.
I was like you, this is a, thisis a facility that the entire
(07:36):
purpose is focused on mentalhealth and you can't even have
one ounce of compassion, notonly for somebody who worked for
you, who provided all of this,but for the people who are
working there, who are hurting.
And then I remember when theyput together this very poorly
written memorial for her that Ihad to correct and send back to
(08:00):
them because it wasn't evenaccurate.
But that is one example, Ithink, of how these are like
compassionless systems.
Right, it's all about likemoney, money, money, money,
money.
I've heard from many nursesthat they lose a patient.
They need to just they're told,suck it up and move on to the
next one.
They don't have.
They don't have any time togrieve, they don't have any time
to process it.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
Yeah, I think I mean, this is something that we talk
about in veterinary medicine alot as well, especially because
I might have like a day in thelife of a veterinarian, right,
you might have like a pretty badeuthanasia and following that
(08:40):
with like a puppy appointment,and you know, I think that for
me you know why I'm able to dothat kind of switch at times is
because I am surrounded bypeople who were checking in on
each other, right, that I canhave my, my moment.
(09:01):
Uh, another thing that helps isthat I don't keep myself from
crying if I feel like that issomething that I'm moved to do
in that situation.
Yeah, I think my observation islike coming from a little bit
outside of American culture,because I just wasn't quite
(09:22):
raised in American culture sinceboth my parents were immigrants
, I really think that Americanculture because I just wasn't
quite raised in American culturesince both my parents were
immigrants I really think thatAmerican culture, from my
observations, has a verydysfunctional relationship with
grief and with with death.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
Absolutely we.
Actually we are what's called adeath defying society, so we
like to pretend that deathactually doesn't exist, which is
why there are so many productsout there that are marketed to
anti-aging stuff for you to lookyounger, and why you could lose
your mother, you could loseyour child, you could lose your
partner, and you're given threeto four bereavement days at work
(10:01):
to kind of get over it and goback to work.
Because we don't like to talkabout it.
Even the way we treat our, ourelderly, we, when we put them in
nursing homes and carefacilities and we don't, we just
kind of forget about thembecause all of that is our
denial that we are all dying,right, like we are all aging.
We are all dying and we don'tlike looking at that.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
That's particular to our culture I like my brain does
not all dying and we don't likelooking at that.
That's particular to ourculture.
I like my brain does notcompute, I don't, I don't know,
(11:12):
and I think that in some ways,like you know, this also comes
from growing on a global scale.
We're navigating the space ofbearing witness to some of the
most horrific war crimes, crimesagainst humanity, just seeing
the complete dehumanization ofchildren, right, and I think
something, and I think, if wethink about how like this
impacts us, like directly, yeah,I think there's this
interesting process of how doyou live with something that is
always there, right, like thepresence of death is another
example and like how do you justlearn to coexist with something
(11:36):
that, when you really sit withit, results in this feeling of
like at times, it can be that,that feeling of horror, and this
is something that I've probablyspent more time thinking about
than the average person, and I,you know, yesterday I went to a
retirement party of a very likechosen family, shall we say
(12:08):
family, shall we say.
She spent her career as ateacher and as a social worker,
and so I was at this event witha bunch of social workers who
work with housing, insecurepopulations and you know we talk
about like how we can't saveeveryone right, and you have to
be faced with your limitations.
You say I will do absolutelyeverything I can to try and help
(12:30):
as many people as possible, asmany animals as possible, as
many as many you know individualwild animals of a particular
group.
Like I will do everything thatI can.
And then how much we arefeeling like we're not doing
enough and that's not enough.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
I think that all the helping professions that we've
talked about, if people aregoing into it for the right
reasons, like you and I, peoplego into it because they have the
, the moral compass, the, thehigh moral compass to say I
really want to help people, Iwant to make a difference, I
want to, I want to like help asmany people as I possibly can.
(13:10):
And of course you certainly havepeople that go into it for the
wrong reason.
But you know, most of the timecertainly not money, but they,
but they, at least in myprofession but they, but they go
into it for different reasons.
So I think when you have that,that moral compass and you, when
you have that moral compass andyou have that level of
compassion and empathy and youunderstand suffering and you
want to help people and yourealize you can't help everybody
(13:33):
, that sometimes that then turnsinto a sense of like that's it,
I give up and I'm not going tohelp anybody and I'm just going
to kind of not do anything,because there is this kind of
all or nothing attitude of ifI'm not saving everybody, then
I'm not doing enough, and Ithink we all, we all have a
touch of that.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
I mean it's uh, what is it like reward, like those
reward systems in our brains?
Of course we like seeingsuccess right and I think that
we just don't have that level ofcontrol, especially when we're
having to navigate, you know,like just a lack, a lack of
(14:13):
resources, a lack of you knowwhat our country values and and
funds, which is not education,health care or like community
needs.
It's prison, prison money,capitalism militarism right and
extraction, like I, I.
(14:36):
I think that, fundamentally,like both you and I know like we
don't really have very manyanswers right, so most of this
is this concept of coping right,how, how do you cope?
How do you?
What brings you comfort?
Because so much of what you aredoing and what I am doing we
are struggling against systemicissues that are beyond our, our
(14:59):
ability to sway as individuals.
So so like war, poverty,systemic violence,
discrimination, like what arethings that help you keep going?
Speaker 2 (15:14):
Oh, that's a really that's a really great question.
I think it depends on the day.
This is probably stuff that youcan relate to, or anybody that
works in the field.
The other thing we do and Iwill answer that question, but I
just want to add one more pieceto it the other thing we do is
I think we have a tendency to bereally unforgiving of ourselves
(15:34):
because we hold ourselves tolike such a high level that
obviously we're human, we'refallible, we make mistakes.
And then when we do that, Ithink we struggle to have that
forgiveness to say like, okay,I'm human, I made a mistake,
right, like we.
We have a tendency to, I think,maybe blow that up a little bit
more.
(15:54):
So what I try to remind myselfof is that we don't always know
the positive changes that wecreate, and I'm sure you've had
this experience too, wheresomebody that you might you may
have had a conversation with offthe cuff or you didn't really
(16:14):
think anything of it forwhatever reason, and then months
or years later, you run intothat person and they tell you
something like wow, you reallychanged my life that day because
of this, that or the otherthing, and you know in that
moment wow, you really changedmy life that day because of this
, that or the other thing.
And you know, in that momentyou're not really thinking about
making any change at all,you're just having a
conversation, right?
So I think I like to remindmyself of those things and say,
(16:36):
ok, I don't really.
I will never know the amount ofpeople that are impacted by
what I say or what other peopledo.
We won't know that, but I havefaith that it's happening yeah
and that's something I somethingwe need to remind ourselves of,
because I know one of thethings that, especially with
(16:57):
students, that they reallystruggle with, like entry-level
students take like a dv example,or like interpersonal violence,
when, from a therapyperspective, if somebody tells
you that they're in an abusiverelationship, you can't report
it legally because it'sconfidential, and entry-level
students or clinicians strugglewith that because they they want
to help the person.
(17:18):
So they're like, yeah, but wegot to get that person out of
their relationship and it's likeyes.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
However, right, there's also the right to
self-determination, and there'slaws and there's other stuff and
also like sometimes it's biggerthan that right, like in order
for someone to exit a situation.
There are also other thingsthat they have need of, like we
(17:45):
talk about this a lot inveterinary medicine, because
there are also people who remainin um interpersonal violence
situations because of pets thatthey're that they share custody.
Yeah, like that out of out ofconcern for not being able to
take their pets with them andalso ensure the safety of their
(18:08):
companion animals if they leftwithout them.
I mean, obviously it's also thesame thing that some people in
(18:33):
that situation, a lot of people,are not going to be able to
bring themselves to do that.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
That's like also another great point as to how
there are many systemic problemstoo, because I mean we could go
on and on and on about, like inthat, just in DV how that can
be really problematic.
I know there have been peoplewho I don't know how much it's
changed now, but it used to bethat shelters didn't allow boys
in.
So women were in the positionof do I get safe for myself and
(19:05):
leave my son at home with theabuser or do I stay in that
relationship?
And that was just one of thebarriers.
I know some of the otherbarriers were if women were
using drugs or if they were onany sort of heavy-duty mental
health medications like Haldol,they would be not appropriate to
be in those shelters.
So there were so many barriersand I'm sure there still are.
(19:28):
It's hard for us, you know, togo back to your question about
how do you take care of yourselfwhen you realize there's only
so much you can do.
That's obviously acceptance.
I mean, if we want to talkabout radical acceptance and
understanding like here's what Ihave control over, and
understanding like here's what Ihave control over, but also not
using that, I think, as anexcuse to just then just check
(19:54):
out, right?
So I mean, if we talk aboutstuff that's going on in Gaza
right now, how many times I'llbring that conversation up and
people will say things like Ijust don't have time to worry
about that, or it's just toomuch for me to handle?
Well, it's great that you'retaking some level of self-care,
but you can't take it to thepoint where you're then just
ignorant and do nothing eitheryeah, I think that this is
something like.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
I struggle with this a lot.
It comes up like I have to holdspace for other people's
autonomy in this as well and, ofcourse, like you know, you and
I have talked about the factthat, like, like, okay, like I'm
, like I'm a person of color,I'm autistic.
I like I am a survivor ofthings that maybe we'll talk
(20:32):
about later around it, aboutwanting to influence and shape
the world into a better placewhere fewer people will have the
types of experiences that Ihave had and sometimes, like
(20:53):
people don't like, what I talkabout with my therapist very
often is where sympathy is alimitation when people don't
have that lived experience tounderstand, or also, maybe, the
context to understand how theseissues actually impact all of us
and how, like, the ship isheaded in the very wrong
(21:15):
direction and we are all on thesame ship, planet, country, like
spaces, et cetera.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
And that's a great analogy, because when it sinks,
everybody is sinking on it.
It's not like there's.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
You know, there's a great analogy right and and so,
like, I run into this sometimeswith people who who are like
well, my limitation is like Ijust don't have bandwidth for it
and I have to kind of balancemy desire to like, be like well,
at some point or another.
You will not have a choice,right and and that's where we
(21:51):
have a higher percentage ofpeople in in this cohort of not
having a choice but to start tothink about these things, and
that in itself can be reallydifficult because, like, you and
I were talking about the factthat we have a whole litany of
coping mechanisms.
I think even it comes up andjust the fact that when I asked
you that question, we bothstarted laughing right, like
(22:14):
like there, there's a thing inboth of our professions and also
in, like teachers, social, likeI see this in every profession
where you can say something toeach other.
We both know, like where you,we've been in what we call the
metaphorical trenches, like weall, like we use this and it's
kind of frustrating that it's,you know, militaristic language,
(22:36):
but it's also kind of accurateof what it feels like at times
because you are in the frontlines.
We are frontline medics inalongside frontline medics and
basically looking at situationswhere, like, I am just trying to
triage and save as many livesas I can with my words, with my
whatever resources that I have,and at times, like knowing that
(23:00):
I am actually doing things andinvolved in things that can
drive people crazy, like when wetalk about this you know some
of the jokes that me and thesocial workers were sharing with
each other we're basically like, we're like all like it's
living under conditions ofinsanity, basically, and so if
(23:21):
you can recognize that, then youcan also do things to care for
yourself.
In that, and the the degree ofof awareness that we have is
directly related to ourwillingness to go find out what
is happening.
Right, to put yourself into asituation where you can.
(23:43):
Right, To put yourself into asituation where you can get to
know.
You know what.
What does it mean to have ameal with somebody who doesn't
get food consistently?
Right, and, and these are thethings that, like, I really try
and um, unless people who, likeknow me, who care about me, who
(24:04):
might not have taken action inany particular issue, like I'm
asking, like, spend a momentleaning into your humanity of
cohorts that have less than you,right?
Speaker 2 (24:28):
okay, yes, and empathy.
You know, it's interestingbecause one of the one of the
things I see again withentry-level people struggle
where they struggle is withempathy.
Right, empathy seems to be thehardest thing to teach people
because they'll understand thebasics of like, okay, here's
what I say and how do we fix it.
But that, the empathy that youwould get by sitting down and
having a meal with somebody whohas food insecurity and trying
(24:50):
to understand their point ofview, that part, I think, is
generally missing from mostpeople.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
And yeah, it's hard, especially because I think that
I live, I have that privilege ofliving in a world with a lot of
people who do, and so I guess,how do we?
I mean one one way that I findto cope is I've gotten better at
storytelling right and sharing,because I think that we cannot,
(25:16):
we can't.
Well, like you say, as the mostextreme situation, right With
with with genocide, right andthe literal process, the
strategies that are utilized tocreate a situation where
populations of people, largemasses of people, are
(25:39):
comfortable and complicit withthat happening, is
dehumanization right, turningpeople into numbers, turning
people into problems, right.
And so I think that that is thething that I try and also make
sure that is not like when I amdealing with a frustration of
(26:03):
the inaction of the world, likewhen I am dealing with a
frustration of the inaction ofthe world that, like that anger
doesn't dehumanize like thepeople that are not directly,
and like people in theircomplicity.
It's hard, it's something that Iknow a lot of veterinarians
struggle with as far as whenthey're coming, they have a
client that's coming in.
(26:23):
Maybe it's a neglect case orsomething that, like an older
person or a mom that has a lotgoing on that just didn't see
what was happening.
That happened chronically overtime, right Like we have to also
maintain our compassion forpeople who are showing up, maybe
(26:44):
not under ideal conditions,maybe not when they could have.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
Yeah, I think that that's like part of what helps
me get through is to recognizethat this is messy To bring it
to bring it full circle tosomething that you had said
earlier, when you're talkingabout large people being like,
(27:07):
large quantities of people beingokay with the dehumanization
and because we just see thingsas numbers, look at all the
systems that we talked about.
I mean that happens in themedical system, it happens in
education, it happens everywhere, right, where we just see
people as numbers, right, wedon't.
I mean, how many times have youheard people come from a
doctor's office saying that theywere kind of rushed in and
(27:27):
rushed out and just feel likethey're being treated like a
number?
Because all of that is theprison systems, right, they're
given numbers, right.
So, like I mean, it's you seehow like I think we just do it
on so many small scales thatit's easier than to condition
people on a larger scale to belike, okay, small scales that
it's easier than to conditionpeople on a larger scale to be
like, okay, they're just numbers.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
Yeah, I think this is also very interesting when I
talk about how numbers can beused for empowerment, right,
because so we talked a littlebit about like empathy, like
recognizing the conditions thatyou're in that are beyond your
control, and like recognizingthat you're doing the best that
you can and even if you're likeevery, every life, a universe,
like every positive impact thatyou have, like that that pebble
(28:13):
stone into the water creatingripples, that impacts things
beyond you, like those thingsbeing things that we can hold on
to.
Oh my God, I just lost where Iwas originally going with this
Um, relatable that we can holdon to.
Oh my God, I just lost where Iwas originally going with this.
Relatable Knowledge, knowledge,right, knowledge and context.
(28:39):
So this is the interestingthing about numbers, right?
So I'm in a science-based justlike same thing with mental
health care based.
Just like same thing withmental health care.
Science is utilized a lot forstating what is a value as an
intervention, as a therapy, as awhat is valid and what is not.
And yet that distinction betweenwhat is quantitative versus
(29:01):
qualitative so in my in, in inveterinary medicine and
biomedical like I got my PhDthrough biomedical training
program like the numerificationof things is considered King,
right.
Like we have to have this typeof statistical analysis and
there was a recent podcast thatI listened to that I need to
(29:24):
send your way.
But it's this concept of how,through the process of like
number or simplifying data, thatis, qualitative things that
involve storytelling, thingsthat involve context of
individual people, those nuancesbecome erased when we're trying
to simplify things to the moststraightforward variables to do
(29:49):
something, to test something,and this is something that is
like there you go, subtext.
This is an autistic info dump.
This is like how we have tonavigate this question of the
importance of science, theimportance of data, and also how
(30:11):
it contributes to thedehumanization of people.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
I am so glad you said that, because that happens in
mental health all the time,especially with insurance
companies, because all they careabout is the numbers on scales.
They don't care about anythingthat's actually happening to the
person.
What I've known from doingassessments with clients for
years is that people arechangeable.
(30:38):
So somebody can take a scaletest today and they can take it
tomorrow and the numbers aregoing to be wildly different.
It doesn't reflect what'sactually going on in their life,
it just reflects what's goingon in that moment, and I've also
seen people fill things outthat they don't understand.
There was at least two clientsthat I remember that they filled
(30:59):
out a self-assessment form thatthey were given by our case
managers and their case managersare supposed to ask them the
questions and fill it out withthem, and I remember getting it
and thinking something was wrongwith it.
It turned out the clients wereilliterate and they were just
kind of filling out what theythought.
Do you know what I mean?
So, like it's, I'm glad youbrought that up because I agree
with it.
I think the numbers areimportant, but I also think the
(31:20):
numbers don't catch everything,and when you oversimplify it,
like you said, sometimes itcreates a false narrative.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
Yeah, and I think so.
This is this is where I so Ithink that for me, when we, when
we're talking about like coping, so of course, like we talked
about support structures ofpeople who can relate and
finding connection with otherpeople that have similar or
parallel so and and value systemwhere you can have community
(31:51):
building and talking about therelatability, because I think
that isolation is also adehumanizing experience.
So, knowing that humanconnection has that level of
power and and you probably havesome One thing about working
with a mental health nonprofitas a board member, historically,
(32:14):
there was something that wasvery useful that came out of my
experience about how thatpersonal connection and that
having a conversation and havingsomeone feel seen in a moment
of deep trauma and feel likethere's just somebody that is
holding space with them, canempower that person to make that
not the longer term traumaticimpact that it could be without
(32:38):
that.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
If I can find there was a recent article I think it
was September of last year.
If I can find it, I'll put itin the show notes that it was a
study that showed that isolationamong men killed them quicker
than heart disease.
So let me see if I can findthat and I'll put that in the
show notes.
But you're right, isolation isit can really hurt a lot of
(33:01):
people and the community issuper important.
It can really hurt a lot ofpeople and the community is
super important and the.
You know, part of the problemis that our culture certainly
does not promote community.
It promotes individualism and,like you know the five foot rule
.
If it you know, if it doesn'taffect you more than five feet,
it's none of your business.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
Oh my gosh, yeah, and this is this is something that
is very interesting as far aslike inter cultural
relationships, and I thinkthat's something that, like my
partner and I have haddiscussions about, um, about how
that, that like individualpower, right, I think that's the
most most powerful thing aboutour each of our individual
(33:42):
autonomy is that at every momentin time, we can make a choice
about connecting, so we havethat.
That is an and like this issomething that I grew up
observing and learning frompeople who had lived through war
(34:03):
and bombardment and like anddisplacement and, like you know,
places of like suspicion, right, because so fascist, right, and
the concepts of like fascistgovernment and like reporting on
your neighbors.
I had a moment, like a big, bigmoment, the other day where I
(34:24):
was listening to an interview ofMargaret Altwood I'm terrible
with names, but the writer ofthe Handmaid's Tale, right
interview with Ezra Klein, andshe was talking about the
inspiration for that book wasEast Germany, because she had
gotten into East Germany.
I almost vomited, like becausethat's, you know, my family
(34:48):
escaped that area and thisconcept of creating, this
concept of creating like anisolation where you don't know
who is safe to talk to, this isthe thing that we as individuals
(35:09):
can, no matter what thesituation, what the systemic
power, we have the autonomy ofboth your own mind about how you
think about other people andother cohorts, how you respond
to other people, and also whatyou choose to say.
Right, because your voice andthe way that you treat people is
the foundational aspect of ourfreedom.
(35:31):
That can't be taken away.
And this is the thing thatkeeps me going that I know that
it doesn't matter how big thesystem is, how oppressive the
system is, that if I can havethat compassion and show that
compassion as far as my reachand activate people to know that
that is their own power, thatis a way that so many people and
(35:54):
cultures and have survived,even in space.
So, for example, these arestories about, you know,
japanese internment here in thiscountry.
Right, about how kindnessbetween and compassion between
people can really save lives.
Speaker 2 (36:09):
And that's what how I keep myself sane during times
like this self-same during timeslike this, and if we could
spread that compassion andempathy far enough, hopefully
those circumstances would neverhappen where we would have to do
that right.
That's the goal.
If we could really do that.
You know it's funny.
As you're talking, I wasthinking about.
One of the feedbacks I often getfrom my students are things
(36:32):
like thank you for allowing usto have our own opinions, thank
you for holding space for us tobe free in our thoughts.
And every time I hear it itreally touches me, because
that's what I try to do.
I try to make it so thateverybody can, even if I don't
agree with them.
I want everybody to be able tohave their space to talk about
their experiences, becausethat's how we learn as
individuals is listening toother people and saying like
(36:54):
okay, how do I, how do I help,or or maybe I'm not saying
things correctly.
And another important thing forus to do to prevent us from
getting to that burnout stage isfiguring out what the real
issues are and kind of weedingout the nonsense, because I mean
there's so much nonsense, likeI was having a conversation with
somebody the other day and theywere saying that they were
boycotting target still, becauseof all of the satanic stuff
(37:17):
that they did during pride monthand I was like, oh my god,
first of all, that's not evenreal.
Like if you did two seconds ofresearch, you would see in every
reputable news source in theworld they've disproved that
like and you're boycotting thembecause that apparently so
that's your issue, not genocide.
Do you know what I mean?
Apparently so that's your issue, not genocide.
(37:40):
Do you know what I mean?
And not falling trapped tothose like stupid clickbait
things, right where people arelike, oh look, I'm gonna go
boycott this because, orwhatever I think that's, we have
to.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
We have to kind of weed that stuff out because
there's so many false issuesgoing on yeah, I think, um, I
when, when, when we talk aboutlike when it's impacting us, and
like the burnout, and dealingwith the noise and the
frustration that comes up.
I think it's it's important tounderstand.
(38:10):
I think that's an importantstep when you know that like
that kind of stuff is bringingthat, that frustration, because
it's energy, it's entered it, itimpacts our energy and our
ability to, like, exactly as yousaid, focus on the things that
matter.
I think it's important, likewhen I can recognize that my
(38:31):
frustration I call itfrustration rising, like I can
the the irritability, right, itis a sign of increased risk
towards burnout, right, as wethink, because burnout is, like
the most, one of the morefurther down the path of impact.
And as far as things likeburnout and I would love for you
to kind of add onto this,because it's like a disinterest
(38:54):
you start to be less interestedor less feeling about things
that matter to you, it is linkedand is also on the path to
depression.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
And PTSD by the way, I mean emotional numbing and not
having responses to traumaticthings can also be a result of
PTSD.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
Right, and so I think that when I start to see
disconnection arise, like inmyself, and also that that is
like a good warning sign to methat I need to do something to
help myself to avoid fallinginto complete burnout, because,
(39:36):
like and also for me, as, likean autistic person, autistic
burnout takes a lot longer torecover from for me, in my
experience, you know, sometimespeople who are at risk for
burnout like it can take yearsto recover.
So it's important to also likerecognize that these kind of
(39:58):
signs that might indicate thatyou're on the path, and then to
know that it might be the timeto either redirect or take a
shift or do some radical rest orengage in things that are
connecting rather thandisconnecting which is hard.
Speaker 2 (40:15):
You're're 100% correct it's hard to do because
depression, particularly, issomething that you have to do
the opposite of what feelscomfortable in order to get out
of it.
So for people who are depressed, it feels more comfortable to
sit home and not to isolate, sitin bed and not do anything like
watch TV or whatever.
But what they need to do isthey need to be going out and
(40:37):
socializing and that is it'slike you have to.
They have to force themselvesto step out of that, to get to
get better, and that it's hardto do because it feels so
overwhelming.
Oh, yeah, I can.
(41:10):
Yes, yes, yes.
Self-destructive behaviors thatmay not be outwardly appearing
self-destructive, but that'swhen it happens.
We start, like overeating ornot sleeping or spending money
or doing whatever, checking out,doing high-risk behaviors.
What we have to do, and a lotof times, again, it's cultural,
because it's so ingrained in usnot to ask for help, but to ask
(41:30):
for help and say, hey, I needthis, like I'm really struggling
.
I went through a period.
I went through a rough period.
Say, hey, I need this, like I'mreally struggling.
I went through a period.
I went through a rough period.
As you know, I lost two petsand I had some other issues that
happened and you know I wasgoing through a period where I
was starting to feel burnt out.
So I called my mom and I waslike, can I come stay there like
once a week?
I just need to, like, have somesort of other connection, and
(41:53):
that's been really helpful.
So some sort of otherconnection, and that's been
really helpful.
So I mean we have to know whatthose things are and I'm a big
advocate of self-care and Ithink when people think
self-care, they do think interms of money.
So they'll say, like, well,that's really expensive.
But there's so many things Imean you could go for a hike for
self-care.
I went to the movies a coupleof weekends ago to see a horror
(42:16):
movie, but I had the theater allto myself and it was cheap
because it was a Sunday night.
So the whole thing cost me 20something dollars and I was like
not only did I eat and watch amovie, it was cheaper than going
out to dinner.
So you know, but little, littlethings like that.
Like it's important for us tojust say like, how do I, how do
I just check out for right now,the trick is not checking out
(42:41):
forever.
Speaker 1 (42:41):
Yes, and I think that , especially when you're finding
what I describe, when I cantell that my edges are crispy,
when I know that I need toengage in radical arrest, or
this is why, like, so much artis involved in liberation
movements as well is because, uh, you know, the adage picture is
(43:04):
worth a thousand words, right,like sometimes, I think part of
the thing that is difficult isthat we don't always have words
right.
We don't always have wordsright.
We don't always have words thatadequately express the feelings
we have about things.
And at times I'm doing art orengaging in artistic practice
(43:29):
and I do things like I use paperbags, right, somecery stores,
some of these things, and workwith stuff that can really help,
and then these are also thingsthat you can, if you're ready to
at that point in time, alsoinvite other people to share
space in as that communitybuilding component.
(43:53):
I don't think that I, like thereare many times where,
especially speaking out, youknow, I would say that every
professional that I know who hasbeen active in speaking out
against the genocide in Glezahas been isolated, experienced
isolation because of it, andthat community building, or that
(44:18):
sharing space with somebodythat you don't have to feel like
your guard is up around orunsure about whether or not
they're going to feel the sameway that you are like is is a
healing point.
So if you're, if you're outthere and are deeply impacted by
(44:44):
what is happening, the factthat we're witnessing what we
are, I definitely recommendlooking around to see if there's
an event in your area, lookingaround to see if there's an
event in your area where peopleare gathering in support of
Palestine and go.
It is a multicultural,multi-faith, loving and
(45:04):
compassion-based movement, andif you don't think that that's
the case, you've probably beenreceiving very one-sided
information, yep absolutely.
Speaker 2 (45:13):
Yeah, it's fine.
Funny is when people, when youshare information, especially
with all the children that arebeing murdered there, and people
like how can you share thoseimages?
And it's like, oh, the problemis me sharing the images, not
the fact that it's happening,like that's, that's just, it's
wild.
The other thing, like I toldyou that earlier I had gone to,
(45:35):
there's a museum near me, thePrududence Grandal Museum, which
is somebody I'd never heard ofbefore students and the teachers
and what the adversity thatthey endured and just like the
bravery of their soul to keepmoving forward to get changes.
(46:02):
That is incredibly inspiring.
Now the downside of it ishearing it and realizing how
much nothing really changes.
That's the part that's a littlebit disturbing, but the just
the human strength to make thosechanges right, that is
incredibly inspiring.
Speaker 1 (46:21):
Yeah, and I think that when we think about like
the, the impression and theimpact that we can have, we were
we were talking earlier, beforewe started recording about like
time scale right, scales oftime and I think, think that for
me, that has been a lifelongexercise.
That's also been helpfulbecause when I realized that I
(46:46):
am perhaps framing my thinkingtoo much on short timelines and
if I understand that perhaps thethings that I'm doing now and
the impacts that I'm having noware that I might not live to see
the shifts that I am aspiringto or hoping for within our
(47:12):
country, within our world,within my local community,
within people in my life right,that it's not.
Like you said earlier, it's nota failure, right, but things
take time and I think that thatis something that we can all
(47:33):
understand.
Is that the process of buildinglegacy um is complex, right,
the, the, the healing isn'tlinear.
We can make progress and thenthings can rise, because the
(47:54):
things that we're fightingagainst as far as like
discrimination, right, and whitesupremacy, these things, and
also the concept of likeclassism right, we are in a
place where there are people inthis country that have billions
of dollars poured into politicswant to go back to monarchistic
(48:18):
systems and feudalism.
Right Like these are thingsthat we are part of a
longer-term struggle.
We mightn't see the fruits ofour labor and so and again, this
is another step so the placethat you visited, those are also
(48:42):
people that were part of that,that inspiration.
It lives on and we can rely onwhat happened.
Speaker 2 (48:52):
Oh no, Erica.
Speaker 1 (48:55):
Yeah.
Something happened I don't knowwhat happened either.
Speaker 2 (48:59):
And then you're back.
Where did I?
Don't know what happened either, and then I got all choppy.
Speaker 1 (49:02):
Where did I?
Where did you lose me?
Speaker 2 (49:03):
Oh God.
Speaker 1 (49:05):
I don't remember.
Okay, I think I was justtalking.
I was talking about legacy,right, like timescales and
legacy the fact that the people,that she who made that school
right and the things that she'sfighting for, those are the same
things that we're fighting for,and some strategies that we
might need to use are different.
(49:25):
And I think that fundamentally,like the thing that I want to
message, that I want to send outto anyone listening to this
that is feeling overwhelmed andfeeling helpless that it is
normal to feel those feelingswhen you're involved in things
that have systemic natures tothem, and that every little
(49:50):
thing that you do is meaningful,every impact that you have,
whether or not it's a singlemoment with a person that you're
supporting, whether or not it'sa single moment with a person
that you're supporting, or a dayof volunteering, like every
single step that we contributeis important, and the important
(50:11):
thing is to maintain aconnection, or maintain
connections with your communityand know that sometimes it takes
a long time before we canactually move the needle.
Speaker 2 (50:19):
To add to that, I was part of a research design years
ago that looked at IPT, whichis interpersonal therapy, and
the effectiveness of it withwomen who were both using
alcohol and had depression.
What it showed was that foreach sober healthy support that
was added into their life, theywere two times more likely to
(50:40):
stay sober, and it wasexponential.
So that backs up everything youjust said about the importance
of human connection and that ifyou can even find one person,
that is going to be better thanhaving nobody.
So, and that could just be assimple as you know, bringing
somebody with you to a rally,but like you don't go by
yourself.
You know, bringing somebodywith you to a rally, right.
(51:00):
Like you don't go by yourself,you go with a friend, or even
something even more minor.
Like you go grocery shoppingwith a friend, like whatever,
like just doing something withsomebody that you connect with
and that you relate to.
The problem is with COVID andhow that really did the opposite
.
That pushed people to not talkto each other and become even
(51:23):
more islands than they alreadywere, and now we're fighting
against that, plus the culturethat was already there.
So it's certainly can beoverwhelming, but I know we
wanted to.
We wanted to talk about humoras a as a positive coping skill
right, Because that is.
Humor is an incredibly goodcoping skill.
Speaker 1 (51:44):
So many dimensions of humor and I can definitely say
for me personally I got throughmy divorce through listening to
comedy a lot while cleaning.
So it was very normal forsomebody to come to like visit
me and like come by the housebecause I lived in a
multi-person household, mecleaning something and
(52:07):
intermittently hystericallylaughing so I have to ask who do
you have a favorite comedian?
oh gosh, it would.
It would take me quite a bit totry and pull something up
specifically without like crosschecking to be like has this
person been involved?
in anything that I do not wantto endorse.
Um, I like puns, I like wordhumor, like wordplay humor.
(52:33):
So there, there are a couple ofbut, but I think Mitch Hedberg
was a really good one for thatone and I think that, yeah.
So I think that sometimes, ifyou want to learn more about a
community, listen to a comedianfrom that community that is
talking about those things, andpeople who are focusing on
punching up rather than punchingdown.
(52:55):
I think that those things arewhat I would go for.
Speaker 2 (52:59):
I love copycats.
I purposely try to get in thefront because I want to be
picked on.
And I haven't been picked onyet.
Speaker 1 (53:08):
I can't wait to hear about it when it happens.
Achieve your goals.
Speaker 2 (53:15):
So I wanted to end with a funny story, but I wasn't
sure if there was anything youwanted to add before that, Erica
.
Speaker 1 (53:23):
I think that the story that you're going to share
, I am here for it.
Speaker 2 (53:28):
It's such a great story so I know you already
heard it, but I'll add a littlebit more flair to it when I'm
telling it.
I like to hike and I know wehave talked a little bit on a
couple episodes about theunnamed serial killer in New
England, the rumblings of it.
So when I go hiking I usuallyhave the AllTrails app and I
download the trail ahead of timeso I know what it looks like
(53:50):
and on this particular day itwas a new place and I did not do
that and I was trying todownload it and I had no Wi-Fi
connection and I had my glasseson my head because I'm looking
at my phone and of course I trip, but it was this very long,
exaggerated stumbly trip becauseI kept trying to catch myself
and when I finally hit theground I realized I couldn't see
(54:13):
anything because I didn't havemy glasses, because they had
fallen off my head they hadfallen off my head.
I did find them fairly quicklyand I was thinking to myself man
, I would not be the final girlin this movie.
All I was missing was the highheels running through the woods
(54:34):
as they broke Right.
Because then I also realizedthat, because I was looking at
my phone when I tripped, thatphone was projected somewhere
and the whole trail was justthis mass canopy of leaves.
It was like everywhere, like,and I couldn't find it.
So I'm like, of course I'mpanicking, you know, I'm just.
Have you ever lost your phone?
Like you know, like that?
Like sheer panic of, oh my godhow will I?
(54:57):
How will I get anything everagain?
Speaker 1 (55:00):
How am I going to find my way home?
That's, like my major concern.
Speaker 2 (55:06):
I'm like I cannot exist without GPS.
And so I'm looking and it wasclose to the entrance of the
park and there's this youngwoman sitting under the bridge.
So I went to her and Ibasically explained to her.
I was like listen, I just fell,I can't find my phone.
Can you call it?
So she was nice enough to comecall it and I'm thinking to
myself, wow, if this was ahorror movie, you wouldn't
survive either, because I couldbe the serial killer trying to
lure you out here.
(55:27):
But she was super nice.
And then, of course, my phonewas on silent, so of course it's
not ringing.
And then we couldn't do findyour iPhone because she wasn't a
contact of mine.
So it was this reallydisastrous moment.
But you know, it worked out.
Obviously, I found my phone andI thanked her.
But instead of taking thatevent and turning it into a God
(55:49):
this is such a terrible thingLike, I found humor in it and I
was laughing about it the wholetime and I'm like, of course
this would happen to me, right,like, like I said, I am not the
final girl in that movie meright, like, like I said, I am
not the final girl in that movie.
Speaker 1 (56:04):
Okay, I do.
I do actually have one to addthose to it, because this is a
theme of like, how do you tell?
Like embarrassment?
Oh my god, uh, wow, yeah.
So, uh, up until this story, Ihad never had a moment that I
would be like this was the mostembarrassing moment of my life.
Uh, and I can't believe I'mabout to say it on a recorded
podcast.
I love it.
So I went to UC Berkeley and Ilived in unit three, which is
(56:29):
like close to the downtown area,and I lived on the eighth floor
.
So beautiful view, etc.
Like great, but what it?
So the elevators, the way thatthey worked is you had to like
use a key to call the elevatorand I and it was like a you know
it was an elevator that hadsome character.
(56:49):
Sometimes it would move whilethe door was still open.
Like there's like all of thesethings about it that it was like
one of those things whereyou're like this elevator needs
a revamp, but of course you knowit's an educational system, so
like it's not, they don't quitehave the resources to do it or
something.
So there's this thing that youknow when, the when the elevator
(57:13):
door is closed, you know, likethe automatic thing, you stick
your hand and you whack the sideof the door and it opens again.
Yeah, not that day oh no so Igo in.
So I'm, like you know, a littledistracted etc.
Coming in from class I reach myhand to try and knock the thing
to open the elevator door.
It doesn't and it closes onyour arm on my arm and it's
(57:37):
caught, so my wrist caught, so Ican't pull my hand out, and so
I'm just.
That's terrifying.
Speaker 2 (57:46):
And.
Speaker 1 (57:46):
I'm processing.
I'm processing this information, and so the first floor is
entirely boys.
The first floor of the buildingis all boys, and so, of course,
while I'm sitting there, likeclose to this elevator, just
standing there with my wriststuck in it, the door opens and
(58:08):
the most absurd the stairwellopens and some guys come out and
the most like absurd thingsstart going off in my head, like
it's just like the t-rex, ifyou don't just like, don't say
anything, like I'm still liketrying to figure out what's
happening, what to do, and allof a sudden I hear from behind
(58:31):
me something like um, do youneed help?
And I am like no, I'm okay.
And I like I reach over withthe key.
I have enough ability to likekey the door again, and then it
opens.
And then I walk in and the doorcloses.
(58:52):
And probably about floor threeis where I like my hands are on
my face, being like oh, my god,what just happened?
And of was so, and of course,it was someone that like uh, you
know one of the guys that I sawrelatively regularly like and
uh, a couple days later, like uh, he held the door open for me
(59:18):
and I just like walked straightby.
I was like no, like, no, like Iwas just like I am so like I'm
probably bright red right now,uh, but yeah, that was like the
most I, to this day, I alwaysthink about.
It's just like a t-rex don'tmove.
If you don't move, it will bein the scene.
Speaker 2 (59:38):
That's hysterical oh man, I also, you know, when you
were telling me about it.
It also has a like it'sreminiscent of the movie Final
Destination.
That's what you know, and I'mgoing to see that tonight.
Actually, I'm going to see thenew part of it.
So glad it didn't end that wayoh my god.
Speaker 1 (59:56):
yeah, I just so.
Yeah, I think that being ableto find humor in whatever
situation is very helpful, sothanks for listening to us, and
I hope that you got a goodchuckle out of it too listeners,
absolutely, and thank you forsharing that, erica.
Speaker 2 (01:00:15):
That's awesome, and every time I see you, I'm going
to think T-Rex now.
Oh my God, yes, let's go for ityou know, next time you're
going to get one of thoseinflatable outfits on and put it
on.
Speaker 1 (01:00:24):
I was so, still, I was so still.
I was like a chameleon blendedinto the wall.
That's awesome.
Oh man, but not enough.
Speaker 2 (01:00:35):
Well, thank you everybody for tuning in again
and thank you, erica, for beinghere.
All right, take care everyone,hello everybody, and thank you
(01:01:02):
again for listening.
This is just a reminder that nopart of this podcast can be
duplicated or copied withoutwritten consent from either
myself or Wendy.
Thank you again.
This podcast is not intended to serve as therapeutic
advice or to replace anyprofessional treatment.
These opinions belong to us anddo not reflect any company or
agency.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Hello everybody and welcome back to another episode
of the United States of PTSD.
I have back with me Erica.
Welcome again.
Erica Love having you here.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
I love being here, hey, everyone.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
And Erica, you have an awesome topic for today, so
Okay, yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
So today Matt and I were planning on doing an
episode about something that thetwo of us could have a general
conversation on, and that'sbecause sometimes, when we're
dealing with these, withscheduling on interviews and all
these things and the topicswe're talking about, sometimes
(01:04):
it's nice to just take a littlepause and have something a
little bit more straightforwardto have our brains work on.
So today we're going to talkabout dealing with feeling
helpless.
It's something that both Mattand I have some personal
familiarity with with our work,and also it's something that
(01:27):
exists pretty prominently in theworld.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
I think this is and this is such a great topic,
erica, because everybody canrelate to this, and not even on
like a global scale, and youthink about something like
parenting, you know, and howparents are helpless over some
of the things that their kids do, and it is something that
touches all of us, whether it'sminor or whether it's something
as significant as a genocidethat's happening, but this is
(01:52):
something that every individualhas experienced at some point in
their life.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Yeah, and we we experience it in different ways,
also in relation to what somepeople would call positionality
right, Like the distinction ofif you're a child depending on
your class, status or yourgender or where you are in this
(02:18):
way, of how systems willapproach you.
And in some ways, some of thisis also related to like control
and power.
When we feel we have control,or like autonomy of ourselves
and our path, that can be a veryempowering thing.
(02:40):
And when we're navigating, thefact that there's something that
we cannot supersede, that islike an immovable object in the
scenario that we have to address.
Like there's, that can bereally difficult for a lot of
people to navigate.
I know I struggle with it a lotlot.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
That's an interesting dichotomy too, when you think
about when you do have powerover something and you're, you
know it and there was a sense ofobviously being empowered.
But also the flip side of thatis true too is when you realize
that a lot of times control isan illusion, and if we can
accept control as an illusion, Imean that's the fundamental
belief behind addictiontreatment is that you have to
accept that you don't have anycontrol.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
And when you're working on trying to influence a
path, when we have arelationship or more than one
(03:52):
person involved in the outcome.
So, for example, for youworking with patients about
making decisions or behaviorsthat they're working on shifting
or reframing things.
For me as a veterinarian, youknow I have a triangle where I
(04:13):
have the client and the patientand my patient I'm advocating
for, and then there arelimitations to what I can, that,
what I can convince otherpeople to partner with me on.
You know, in some ways, whatMatt and I were discussing about
this topic, because there aredifferent ways that we can
(04:35):
approach this.
We're talking about teachers,social workers, community
members that are involved intheir community, doctors, mental
health care workers, animalcare workers like people who are
involved in compassion-basedprofessions that are
(04:55):
experiencing and this is myopinion.
Some people would say there'senough evidence to back this up
a relatively compassionlesssystem.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
I would say there's lots of evidence to back that up
.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Yeah, lots of evidence so much evidence and,
yeah, so part of theconversation that we're having
today is how do we, ascompassion-filled people who
have devoted ourselves tocompassion-based professions,
(05:36):
how do we navigate thathelplessness when we're
navigating compassionlesssystems of power?
Speaker 2 (05:45):
That's a heavy topic, right.
I mean we could certainly.
There's so much to say aboutthat.
I can give you one example thatcame to my mind, erica, when
you were talking about thecompassionless society.
When I was working for a majorhospital, there was a staff
member that I was really reallygood friends with, wonderful
woman, super compassionate, justan amazing person, and she had
(06:07):
actually done a fundraiser forthe hospital.
So she had raised a significantamount of money by this thing
called Swim Across America,where they like swim, like out
to the ocean and then they getsponsors for that.
And the reason she had donethat was because she got
diagnosed with stage four lungcancer.
So now she had worked for thefacility for I want to say, like
15 years, maybe a little bitmore than that, and I know she
(06:30):
had gone out a couple of timesfor treatment and then she came
back and there was lots ofpositive movement.
But then she had gone out athird time and she had passed
away and we had found out fromone of her daughters had posted
it on Facebook, so that's kindof how we found out.
And I remember the staff wasdevastated, the clients were
(06:51):
devastated and I reached out tomy boss because at the time I
was the acting director butwasn't actually being paid to be
the director.
You know that kind of likestupid stuff.
And I had said listen, thestaff is really upset, the
clients are really upset, can weclose down today?
And it was like mid-afternoonand the response I got back was
(07:13):
sure, you did know she was goingto die, didn't you?
And then another response I gotfrom our other manager when I
let her know she said chin up,it'll get better.
And I was like, literally, I washorrified by the response.
I was like you, this is a, thisis a facility that the entire
(07:36):
purpose is focused on mentalhealth and you can't even have
one ounce of compassion, notonly for somebody who worked for
you, who provided all of this,but for the people who are
working there, who are hurting.
And then I remember when theyput together this very poorly
written memorial for her that Ihad to correct and send back to
(08:00):
them because it wasn't evenaccurate.
But that is one example, Ithink, of how these are like
compassionless systems.
Right, it's all about likemoney, money, money, money,
money.
I've heard from many nursesthat they lose a patient.
They need to just they're told,suck it up and move on to the
next one.
They don't have.
They don't have any time togrieve, they don't have any time
to process it.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
Yeah, I think I mean, this is something that we talk
about in veterinary medicine alot as well, especially because
I might have like a day in thelife of a veterinarian, right,
you might have like a pretty badeuthanasia and following that
(08:40):
with like a puppy appointment,and you know, I think that for
me you know why I'm able to dothat kind of switch at times is
because I am surrounded bypeople who were checking in on
each other, right, that I canhave my, my moment.
(09:01):
Uh, another thing that helps isthat I don't keep myself from
crying if I feel like that issomething that I'm moved to do
in that situation.
Yeah, I think my observation islike coming from a little bit
outside of American culture,because I just wasn't quite
(09:22):
raised in American culture sinceboth my parents were immigrants
, I really think that Americanculture because I just wasn't
quite raised in American culturesince both my parents were
immigrants I really think thatAmerican culture, from my
observations, has a verydysfunctional relationship with
grief and with with death.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
Absolutely we.
Actually we are what's called adeath defying society, so we
like to pretend that deathactually doesn't exist, which is
why there are so many productsout there that are marketed to
anti-aging stuff for you to lookyounger, and why you could lose
your mother, you could loseyour child, you could lose your
partner, and you're given threeto four bereavement days at work
(10:01):
to kind of get over it and goback to work.
Because we don't like to talkabout it.
Even the way we treat our, ourelderly, we, when we put them in
nursing homes and carefacilities and we don't, we just
kind of forget about thembecause all of that is our
denial that we are all dying,right, like we are all aging.
We are all dying and we don'tlike looking at that.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
That's particular to our culture I like my brain does
not all dying and we don't likelooking at that.
That's particular to ourculture.
I like my brain does notcompute, I don't, I don't know,
(11:12):
and I think that in some ways,like you know, this also comes
from growing on a global scale.
We're navigating the space ofbearing witness to some of the
most horrific war crimes, crimesagainst humanity, just seeing
the complete dehumanization ofchildren, right, and I think
something, and I think, if wethink about how like this
impacts us, like directly, yeah,I think there's this
interesting process of how doyou live with something that is
always there, right, like thepresence of death is another
example and like how do you justlearn to coexist with something
(11:36):
that, when you really sit withit, results in this feeling of
like at times, it can be that,that feeling of horror, and this
is something that I've probablyspent more time thinking about
than the average person, and I,you know, yesterday I went to a
retirement party of a very likechosen family, shall we say
(12:08):
family, shall we say.
She spent her career as ateacher and as a social worker,
and so I was at this event witha bunch of social workers who
work with housing, insecurepopulations and you know we talk
about like how we can't saveeveryone right, and you have to
be faced with your limitations.
You say I will do absolutelyeverything I can to try and help
(12:30):
as many people as possible, asmany animals as possible, as
many as many you know individualwild animals of a particular
group.
Like I will do everything thatI can.
And then how much we arefeeling like we're not doing
enough and that's not enough.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
I think that all the helping professions that we've
talked about, if people aregoing into it for the right
reasons, like you and I, peoplego into it because they have the
, the moral compass, the, thehigh moral compass to say I
really want to help people, Iwant to make a difference, I
want to, I want to like help asmany people as I possibly can.
(13:10):
And of course you certainly havepeople that go into it for the
wrong reason.
But you know, most of the timecertainly not money, but they,
but they, at least in myprofession but they, but they go
into it for different reasons.
So I think when you have that,that moral compass and you, when
you have that moral compass andyou have that level of
compassion and empathy and youunderstand suffering and you
want to help people and yourealize you can't help everybody
(13:33):
, that sometimes that then turnsinto a sense of like that's it,
I give up and I'm not going tohelp anybody and I'm just going
to kind of not do anything,because there is this kind of
all or nothing attitude of ifI'm not saving everybody, then
I'm not doing enough, and Ithink we all, we all have a
touch of that.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
I mean it's uh, what is it like reward, like those
reward systems in our brains?
Of course we like seeingsuccess right and I think that
we just don't have that level ofcontrol, especially when we're
having to navigate, you know,like just a lack, a lack of
(14:13):
resources, a lack of you knowwhat our country values and and
funds, which is not education,health care or like community
needs.
It's prison, prison money,capitalism militarism right and
extraction, like I, I.
(14:36):
I think that, fundamentally,like both you and I know like we
don't really have very manyanswers right, so most of this
is this concept of coping right,how, how do you cope?
How do you?
What brings you comfort?
Because so much of what you aredoing and what I am doing we
are struggling against systemicissues that are beyond our, our
(14:59):
ability to sway as individuals.
So so like war, poverty,systemic violence,
discrimination, like what arethings that help you keep going?
Speaker 2 (15:14):
Oh, that's a really that's a really great question.
I think it depends on the day.
This is probably stuff that youcan relate to, or anybody that
works in the field.
The other thing we do and Iwill answer that question, but I
just want to add one more pieceto it the other thing we do is
I think we have a tendency to bereally unforgiving of ourselves
(15:34):
because we hold ourselves tolike such a high level that
obviously we're human, we'refallible, we make mistakes.
And then when we do that, Ithink we struggle to have that
forgiveness to say like, okay,I'm human, I made a mistake,
right, like we.
We have a tendency to, I think,maybe blow that up a little bit
more.
(15:54):
So what I try to remind myselfof is that we don't always know
the positive changes that wecreate, and I'm sure you've had
this experience too, wheresomebody that you might you may
have had a conversation with offthe cuff or you didn't really
(16:14):
think anything of it forwhatever reason, and then months
or years later, you run intothat person and they tell you
something like wow, you reallychanged my life that day because
of this, that or the otherthing, and you know in that
moment wow, you really changedmy life that day because of this
, that or the other thing.
And you know, in that momentyou're not really thinking about
making any change at all,you're just having a
conversation, right?
So I think I like to remindmyself of those things and say,
(16:36):
ok, I don't really.
I will never know the amount ofpeople that are impacted by
what I say or what other peopledo.
We won't know that, but I havefaith that it's happening yeah
and that's something I somethingwe need to remind ourselves of,
because I know one of thethings that, especially with
(16:57):
students, that they reallystruggle with, like entry-level
students take like a dv example,or like interpersonal violence,
when, from a therapyperspective, if somebody tells
you that they're in an abusiverelationship, you can't report
it legally because it'sconfidential, and entry-level
students or clinicians strugglewith that because they they want
to help the person.
(17:18):
So they're like, yeah, but wegot to get that person out of
their relationship and it's likeyes.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
However, right, there's also the right to
self-determination, and there'slaws and there's other stuff and
also like sometimes it's biggerthan that right, like in order
for someone to exit a situation.
There are also other thingsthat they have need of, like we
(17:45):
talk about this a lot inveterinary medicine, because
there are also people who remainin um interpersonal violence
situations because of pets thatthey're that they share custody.
Yeah, like that out of out ofconcern for not being able to
take their pets with them andalso ensure the safety of their
(18:08):
companion animals if they leftwithout them.
I mean, obviously it's also thesame thing that some people in
(18:33):
that situation, a lot of people,are not going to be able to
bring themselves to do that.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
That's like also another great point as to how
there are many systemic problemstoo, because I mean we could go
on and on and on about, like inthat, just in DV how that can
be really problematic.
I know there have been peoplewho I don't know how much it's
changed now, but it used to bethat shelters didn't allow boys
in.
So women were in the positionof do I get safe for myself and
(19:05):
leave my son at home with theabuser or do I stay in that
relationship?
And that was just one of thebarriers.
I know some of the otherbarriers were if women were
using drugs or if they were onany sort of heavy-duty mental
health medications like Haldol,they would be not appropriate to
be in those shelters.
So there were so many barriersand I'm sure there still are.
(19:28):
It's hard for us, you know, togo back to your question about
how do you take care of yourselfwhen you realize there's only
so much you can do.
That's obviously acceptance.
I mean, if we want to talkabout radical acceptance and
understanding like here's what Ihave control over, and
understanding like here's what Ihave control over, but also not
using that, I think, as anexcuse to just then just check
(19:54):
out, right?
So I mean, if we talk aboutstuff that's going on in Gaza
right now, how many times I'llbring that conversation up and
people will say things like Ijust don't have time to worry
about that, or it's just toomuch for me to handle?
Well, it's great that you'retaking some level of self-care,
but you can't take it to thepoint where you're then just
ignorant and do nothing eitheryeah, I think that this is
something like.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
I struggle with this a lot.
It comes up like I have to holdspace for other people's
autonomy in this as well and, ofcourse, like you know, you and
I have talked about the factthat, like, like, okay, like I'm
, like I'm a person of color,I'm autistic.
I like I am a survivor ofthings that maybe we'll talk
(20:32):
about later around it, aboutwanting to influence and shape
the world into a better placewhere fewer people will have the
types of experiences that Ihave had and sometimes, like
(20:53):
people don't like, what I talkabout with my therapist very
often is where sympathy is alimitation when people don't
have that lived experience tounderstand, or also, maybe, the
context to understand how theseissues actually impact all of us
and how, like, the ship isheaded in the very wrong
(21:15):
direction and we are all on thesame ship, planet, country, like
spaces, et cetera.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
And that's a great analogy, because when it sinks,
everybody is sinking on it.
It's not like there's.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
You know, there's a great analogy right and and so,
like, I run into this sometimeswith people who who are like
well, my limitation is like Ijust don't have bandwidth for it
and I have to kind of balancemy desire to like, be like well,
at some point or another.
You will not have a choice,right and and that's where we
(21:51):
have a higher percentage ofpeople in in this cohort of not
having a choice but to start tothink about these things, and
that in itself can be reallydifficult because, like, you and
I were talking about the factthat we have a whole litany of
coping mechanisms.
I think even it comes up andjust the fact that when I asked
you that question, we bothstarted laughing right, like
(22:14):
like there, there's a thing inboth of our professions and also
in, like teachers, social, likeI see this in every profession
where you can say something toeach other.
We both know, like where you,we've been in what we call the
metaphorical trenches, like weall, like we use this and it's
kind of frustrating that it's,you know, militaristic language,
(22:36):
but it's also kind of accurateof what it feels like at times
because you are in the frontlines.
We are frontline medics inalongside frontline medics and
basically looking at situationswhere, like, I am just trying to
triage and save as many livesas I can with my words, with my
whatever resources that I have,and at times, like knowing that
(23:00):
I am actually doing things andinvolved in things that can
drive people crazy, like when wetalk about this you know some
of the jokes that me and thesocial workers were sharing with
each other we're basically like, we're like all like it's
living under conditions ofinsanity, basically, and so if
(23:21):
you can recognize that, then youcan also do things to care for
yourself.
In that, and the the degree ofof awareness that we have is
directly related to ourwillingness to go find out what
is happening.
Right, to put yourself into asituation where you can.
(23:43):
Right, To put yourself into asituation where you can get to
know.
You know what.
What does it mean to have ameal with somebody who doesn't
get food consistently?
Right, and, and these are thethings that, like, I really try
and um, unless people who, likeknow me, who care about me, who
(24:04):
might not have taken action inany particular issue, like I'm
asking, like, spend a momentleaning into your humanity of
cohorts that have less than you,right?
Speaker 2 (24:28):
okay, yes, and empathy.
You know, it's interestingbecause one of the one of the
things I see again withentry-level people struggle
where they struggle is withempathy.
Right, empathy seems to be thehardest thing to teach people
because they'll understand thebasics of like, okay, here's
what I say and how do we fix it.
But that, the empathy that youwould get by sitting down and
having a meal with somebody whohas food insecurity and trying
(24:50):
to understand their point ofview, that part, I think, is
generally missing from mostpeople.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
And yeah, it's hard, especially because I think that
I live, I have that privilege ofliving in a world with a lot of
people who do, and so I guess,how do we?
I mean one one way that I findto cope is I've gotten better at
storytelling right and sharing,because I think that we cannot,
(25:16):
we can't.
Well, like you say, as the mostextreme situation, right With
with with genocide, right andthe literal process, the
strategies that are utilized tocreate a situation where
populations of people, largemasses of people, are
(25:39):
comfortable and complicit withthat happening, is
dehumanization right, turningpeople into numbers, turning
people into problems, right.
And so I think that that is thething that I try and also make
sure that is not like when I amdealing with a frustration of
(26:03):
the inaction of the world, likewhen I am dealing with a
frustration of the inaction ofthe world that, like that anger
doesn't dehumanize like thepeople that are not directly,
and like people in theircomplicity.
It's hard, it's something that Iknow a lot of veterinarians
struggle with as far as whenthey're coming, they have a
client that's coming in.
(26:23):
Maybe it's a neglect case orsomething that, like an older
person or a mom that has a lotgoing on that just didn't see
what was happening.
That happened chronically overtime, right Like we have to also
maintain our compassion forpeople who are showing up, maybe
(26:44):
not under ideal conditions,maybe not when they could have.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
Yeah, I think that that's like part of what helps
me get through is to recognizethat this is messy To bring it
to bring it full circle tosomething that you had said
earlier, when you're talkingabout large people being like,
(27:07):
large quantities of people beingokay with the dehumanization
and because we just see thingsas numbers, look at all the
systems that we talked about.
I mean that happens in themedical system, it happens in
education, it happens everywhere, right, where we just see
people as numbers, right, wedon't.
I mean, how many times have youheard people come from a
doctor's office saying that theywere kind of rushed in and
(27:27):
rushed out and just feel likethey're being treated like a
number?
Because all of that is theprison systems, right, they're
given numbers, right.
So, like I mean, it's you seehow like I think we just do it
on so many small scales thatit's easier than to condition
people on a larger scale to belike, okay, small scales that
it's easier than to conditionpeople on a larger scale to be
like, okay, they're just numbers.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
Yeah, I think this is also very interesting when I
talk about how numbers can beused for empowerment, right,
because so we talked a littlebit about like empathy, like
recognizing the conditions thatyou're in that are beyond your
control, and like recognizingthat you're doing the best that
you can and even if you're likeevery, every life, a universe,
like every positive impact thatyou have, like that that pebble
(28:13):
stone into the water creatingripples, that impacts things
beyond you, like those thingsbeing things that we can hold on
to.
Oh my God, I just lost where Iwas originally going with this
Um, relatable that we can holdon to.
Oh my God, I just lost where Iwas originally going with this.
Relatable Knowledge, knowledge,right, knowledge and context.
(28:39):
So this is the interestingthing about numbers, right?
So I'm in a science-based justlike same thing with mental
health care based.
Just like same thing withmental health care.
Science is utilized a lot forstating what is a value as an
intervention, as a therapy, as awhat is valid and what is not.
And yet that distinction betweenwhat is quantitative versus
(29:01):
qualitative so in my in, in inveterinary medicine and
biomedical like I got my PhDthrough biomedical training
program like the numerificationof things is considered King,
right.
Like we have to have this typeof statistical analysis and
there was a recent podcast thatI listened to that I need to
(29:24):
send your way.
But it's this concept of how,through the process of like
number or simplifying data, thatis, qualitative things that
involve storytelling, thingsthat involve context of
individual people, those nuancesbecome erased when we're trying
to simplify things to the moststraightforward variables to do
(29:49):
something, to test something,and this is something that is
like there you go, subtext.
This is an autistic info dump.
This is like how we have tonavigate this question of the
importance of science, theimportance of data, and also how
(30:11):
it contributes to thedehumanization of people.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
I am so glad you said that, because that happens in
mental health all the time,especially with insurance
companies, because all they careabout is the numbers on scales.
They don't care about anythingthat's actually happening to the
person.
What I've known from doingassessments with clients for
years is that people arechangeable.
(30:38):
So somebody can take a scaletest today and they can take it
tomorrow and the numbers aregoing to be wildly different.
It doesn't reflect what'sactually going on in their life,
it just reflects what's goingon in that moment, and I've also
seen people fill things outthat they don't understand.
There was at least two clientsthat I remember that they filled
(30:59):
out a self-assessment form thatthey were given by our case
managers and their case managersare supposed to ask them the
questions and fill it out withthem, and I remember getting it
and thinking something was wrongwith it.
It turned out the clients wereilliterate and they were just
kind of filling out what theythought.
Do you know what I mean?
So, like it's, I'm glad youbrought that up because I agree
with it.
I think the numbers areimportant, but I also think the
(31:20):
numbers don't catch everything,and when you oversimplify it,
like you said, sometimes itcreates a false narrative.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
Yeah, and I think so.
This is this is where I so Ithink that for me, when we, when
we're talking about like coping, so of course, like we talked
about support structures ofpeople who can relate and
finding connection with otherpeople that have similar or
parallel so and and value systemwhere you can have community
(31:51):
building and talking about therelatability, because I think
that isolation is also adehumanizing experience.
So, knowing that humanconnection has that level of
power and and you probably havesome One thing about working
with a mental health nonprofitas a board member, historically,
(32:14):
there was something that wasvery useful that came out of my
experience about how thatpersonal connection and that
having a conversation and havingsomeone feel seen in a moment
of deep trauma and feel likethere's just somebody that is
holding space with them, canempower that person to make that
not the longer term traumaticimpact that it could be without
(32:38):
that.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
If I can find there was a recent article I think it
was September of last year.
If I can find it, I'll put itin the show notes that it was a
study that showed that isolationamong men killed them quicker
than heart disease.
So let me see if I can findthat and I'll put that in the
show notes.
But you're right, isolation isit can really hurt a lot of
(33:01):
people and the community issuper important.
It can really hurt a lot ofpeople and the community is
super important and the.
You know, part of the problemis that our culture certainly
does not promote community.
It promotes individualism and,like you know the five foot rule
.
If it you know, if it doesn'taffect you more than five feet,
it's none of your business.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
Oh my gosh, yeah, and this is this is something that
is very interesting as far aslike inter cultural
relationships, and I thinkthat's something that, like my
partner and I have haddiscussions about, um, about how
that, that like individualpower, right, I think that's the
most most powerful thing aboutour each of our individual
(33:42):
autonomy is that at every momentin time, we can make a choice
about connecting, so we havethat.
That is an and like this issomething that I grew up
observing and learning frompeople who had lived through war
(34:03):
and bombardment and like anddisplacement and, like you know,
places of like suspicion, right, because so fascist, right, and
the concepts of like fascistgovernment and like reporting on
your neighbors.
I had a moment, like a big, bigmoment, the other day where I
(34:24):
was listening to an interview ofMargaret Altwood I'm terrible
with names, but the writer ofthe Handmaid's Tale, right
interview with Ezra Klein, andshe was talking about the
inspiration for that book wasEast Germany, because she had
gotten into East Germany.
I almost vomited, like becausethat's, you know, my family
(34:48):
escaped that area and thisconcept of creating, this
concept of creating like anisolation where you don't know
who is safe to talk to, this isthe thing that we as individuals
(35:09):
can, no matter what thesituation, what the systemic
power, we have the autonomy ofboth your own mind about how you
think about other people andother cohorts, how you respond
to other people, and also whatyou choose to say.
Right, because your voice andthe way that you treat people is
the foundational aspect of ourfreedom.
(35:31):
That can't be taken away.
And this is the thing thatkeeps me going that I know that
it doesn't matter how big thesystem is, how oppressive the
system is, that if I can havethat compassion and show that
compassion as far as my reachand activate people to know that
that is their own power, thatis a way that so many people and
(35:54):
cultures and have survived,even in space.
So, for example, these arestories about, you know,
japanese internment here in thiscountry.
Right, about how kindnessbetween and compassion between
people can really save lives.
Speaker 2 (36:09):
And that's what how I keep myself sane during times
like this self-same during timeslike this, and if we could
spread that compassion andempathy far enough, hopefully
those circumstances would neverhappen where we would have to do
that right.
That's the goal.
If we could really do that.
You know it's funny.
As you're talking, I wasthinking about.
One of the feedbacks I often getfrom my students are things
(36:32):
like thank you for allowing usto have our own opinions, thank
you for holding space for us tobe free in our thoughts.
And every time I hear it itreally touches me, because
that's what I try to do.
I try to make it so thateverybody can, even if I don't
agree with them.
I want everybody to be able tohave their space to talk about
their experiences, becausethat's how we learn as
individuals is listening toother people and saying like
(36:54):
okay, how do I, how do I help,or or maybe I'm not saying
things correctly.
And another important thing forus to do to prevent us from
getting to that burnout stage isfiguring out what the real
issues are and kind of weedingout the nonsense, because I mean
there's so much nonsense, likeI was having a conversation with
somebody the other day and theywere saying that they were
boycotting target still, becauseof all of the satanic stuff
(37:17):
that they did during pride monthand I was like, oh my god,
first of all, that's not evenreal.
Like if you did two seconds ofresearch, you would see in every
reputable news source in theworld they've disproved that
like and you're boycotting thembecause that apparently so
that's your issue, not genocide.
Do you know what I mean?
Apparently so that's your issue, not genocide.
(37:40):
Do you know what I mean?
And not falling trapped tothose like stupid clickbait
things, right where people arelike, oh look, I'm gonna go
boycott this because, orwhatever I think that's, we have
to.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
We have to kind of weed that stuff out because
there's so many false issuesgoing on yeah, I think, um, I
when, when, when we talk aboutlike when it's impacting us, and
like the burnout, and dealingwith the noise and the
frustration that comes up.
I think it's it's important tounderstand.
(38:10):
I think that's an importantstep when you know that like
that kind of stuff is bringingthat, that frustration, because
it's energy, it's entered it, itimpacts our energy and our
ability to, like, exactly as yousaid, focus on the things that
matter.
I think it's important, likewhen I can recognize that my
(38:31):
frustration I call itfrustration rising, like I can
the the irritability, right, itis a sign of increased risk
towards burnout, right, as wethink, because burnout is, like
the most, one of the morefurther down the path of impact.
And as far as things likeburnout and I would love for you
to kind of add onto this,because it's like a disinterest
(38:54):
you start to be less interestedor less feeling about things
that matter to you, it is linkedand is also on the path to
depression.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
And PTSD by the way, I mean emotional numbing and not
having responses to traumaticthings can also be a result of
PTSD.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
Right, and so I think that when I start to see
disconnection arise, like inmyself, and also that that is
like a good warning sign to methat I need to do something to
help myself to avoid fallinginto complete burnout, because,
(39:36):
like and also for me, as, likean autistic person, autistic
burnout takes a lot longer torecover from for me, in my
experience, you know, sometimespeople who are at risk for
burnout like it can take yearsto recover.
So it's important to also likerecognize that these kind of
(39:58):
signs that might indicate thatyou're on the path, and then to
know that it might be the timeto either redirect or take a
shift or do some radical rest orengage in things that are
connecting rather thandisconnecting which is hard.
Speaker 2 (40:15):
You're're 100% correct it's hard to do because
depression, particularly, issomething that you have to do
the opposite of what feelscomfortable in order to get out
of it.
So for people who are depressed, it feels more comfortable to
sit home and not to isolate, sitin bed and not do anything like
watch TV or whatever.
But what they need to do isthey need to be going out and
(40:37):
socializing and that is it'slike you have to.
They have to force themselvesto step out of that, to get to
get better, and that it's hardto do because it feels so
overwhelming.
Oh, yeah, I can.
(41:10):
Yes, yes, yes.
Self-destructive behaviors thatmay not be outwardly appearing
self-destructive, but that'swhen it happens.
We start, like overeating ornot sleeping or spending money
or doing whatever, checking out,doing high-risk behaviors.
What we have to do, and a lotof times, again, it's cultural,
because it's so ingrained in usnot to ask for help, but to ask
(41:30):
for help and say, hey, I needthis, like I'm really struggling
.
I went through a period.
I went through a rough period.
Say, hey, I need this, like I'mreally struggling.
I went through a period.
I went through a rough period.
As you know, I lost two petsand I had some other issues that
happened and you know I wasgoing through a period where I
was starting to feel burnt out.
So I called my mom and I waslike, can I come stay there like
once a week?
I just need to, like, have somesort of other connection, and
(41:53):
that's been really helpful.
So some sort of otherconnection, and that's been
really helpful.
So I mean we have to know whatthose things are and I'm a big
advocate of self-care and Ithink when people think
self-care, they do think interms of money.
So they'll say, like, well,that's really expensive.
But there's so many things Imean you could go for a hike for
self-care.
I went to the movies a coupleof weekends ago to see a horror
(42:16):
movie, but I had the theater allto myself and it was cheap
because it was a Sunday night.
So the whole thing cost me 20something dollars and I was like
not only did I eat and watch amovie, it was cheaper than going
out to dinner.
So you know, but little, littlethings like that.
Like it's important for us tojust say like, how do I, how do
I just check out for right now,the trick is not checking out
(42:41):
forever.
Speaker 1 (42:41):
Yes, and I think that , especially when you're finding
what I describe, when I cantell that my edges are crispy,
when I know that I need toengage in radical arrest, or
this is why, like, so much artis involved in liberation
movements as well is because, uh, you know, the adage picture is
(43:04):
worth a thousand words, right,like sometimes, I think part of
the thing that is difficult isthat we don't always have words
right.
We don't always have wordsright.
We don't always have words thatadequately express the feelings
we have about things.
And at times I'm doing art orengaging in artistic practice
(43:29):
and I do things like I use paperbags, right, somecery stores,
some of these things, and workwith stuff that can really help,
and then these are also thingsthat you can, if you're ready to
at that point in time, alsoinvite other people to share
space in as that communitybuilding component.
(43:53):
I don't think that I, like thereare many times where,
especially speaking out, youknow, I would say that every
professional that I know who hasbeen active in speaking out
against the genocide in Glezahas been isolated, experienced
isolation because of it, andthat community building, or that
(44:18):
sharing space with somebodythat you don't have to feel like
your guard is up around orunsure about whether or not
they're going to feel the sameway that you are like is is a
healing point.
So if you're, if you're outthere and are deeply impacted by
(44:44):
what is happening, the factthat we're witnessing what we
are, I definitely recommendlooking around to see if there's
an event in your area, lookingaround to see if there's an
event in your area where peopleare gathering in support of
Palestine and go.
It is a multicultural,multi-faith, loving and
(45:04):
compassion-based movement, andif you don't think that that's
the case, you've probably beenreceiving very one-sided
information, yep absolutely.
Speaker 2 (45:13):
Yeah, it's fine.
Funny is when people, when youshare information, especially
with all the children that arebeing murdered there, and people
like how can you share thoseimages?
And it's like, oh, the problemis me sharing the images, not
the fact that it's happening,like that's, that's just, it's
wild.
The other thing, like I toldyou that earlier I had gone to,
(45:35):
there's a museum near me, thePrududence Grandal Museum, which
is somebody I'd never heard ofbefore students and the teachers
and what the adversity thatthey endured and just like the
bravery of their soul to keepmoving forward to get changes.
(46:02):
That is incredibly inspiring.
Now the downside of it ishearing it and realizing how
much nothing really changes.
That's the part that's a littlebit disturbing, but the just
the human strength to make thosechanges right, that is
incredibly inspiring.
Speaker 1 (46:21):
Yeah, and I think that when we think about like
the, the impression and theimpact that we can have, we were
we were talking earlier, beforewe started recording about like
time scale right, scales oftime and I think, think that for
me, that has been a lifelongexercise.
That's also been helpfulbecause when I realized that I
(46:46):
am perhaps framing my thinkingtoo much on short timelines and
if I understand that perhaps thethings that I'm doing now and
the impacts that I'm having noware that I might not live to see
the shifts that I am aspiringto or hoping for within our
(47:12):
country, within our world,within my local community,
within people in my life right,that it's not.
Like you said earlier, it's nota failure, right, but things
take time and I think that thatis something that we can all
(47:33):
understand.
Is that the process of buildinglegacy um is complex, right,
the, the, the healing isn'tlinear.
We can make progress and thenthings can rise, because the
(47:54):
things that we're fightingagainst as far as like
discrimination, right, and whitesupremacy, these things, and
also the concept of likeclassism right, we are in a
place where there are people inthis country that have billions
of dollars poured into politicswant to go back to monarchistic
(48:18):
systems and feudalism.
Right Like these are thingsthat we are part of a
longer-term struggle.
We mightn't see the fruits ofour labor and so and again, this
is another step so the placethat you visited, those are also
(48:42):
people that were part of that,that inspiration.
It lives on and we can rely onwhat happened.
Speaker 2 (48:52):
Oh no, Erica.
Speaker 1 (48:55):
Yeah.
Something happened I don't knowwhat happened either.
Speaker 2 (48:59):
And then you're back.
Where did I?
Don't know what happened either, and then I got all choppy.
Speaker 1 (49:02):
Where did I?
Where did you lose me?
Speaker 2 (49:03):
Oh God.
Speaker 1 (49:05):
I don't remember.
Okay, I think I was justtalking.
I was talking about legacy,right, like timescales and
legacy the fact that the people,that she who made that school
right and the things that she'sfighting for, those are the same
things that we're fighting for,and some strategies that we
might need to use are different.
(49:25):
And I think that fundamentally,like the thing that I want to
message, that I want to send outto anyone listening to this
that is feeling overwhelmed andfeeling helpless that it is
normal to feel those feelingswhen you're involved in things
that have systemic natures tothem, and that every little
(49:50):
thing that you do is meaningful,every impact that you have,
whether or not it's a singlemoment with a person that you're
supporting, whether or not it'sa single moment with a person
that you're supporting, or a dayof volunteering, like every
single step that we contributeis important, and the important
(50:11):
thing is to maintain aconnection, or maintain
connections with your communityand know that sometimes it takes
a long time before we canactually move the needle.
Speaker 2 (50:19):
To add to that, I was part of a research design years
ago that looked at IPT, whichis interpersonal therapy, and
the effectiveness of it withwomen who were both using
alcohol and had depression.
What it showed was that foreach sober healthy support that
was added into their life, theywere two times more likely to
(50:40):
stay sober, and it wasexponential.
So that backs up everything youjust said about the importance
of human connection and that ifyou can even find one person,
that is going to be better thanhaving nobody.
So, and that could just be assimple as you know, bringing
somebody with you to a rally,but like you don't go by
yourself.
You know, bringing somebodywith you to a rally, right.
(51:00):
Like you don't go by yourself,you go with a friend, or even
something even more minor.
Like you go grocery shoppingwith a friend, like whatever,
like just doing something withsomebody that you connect with
and that you relate to.
The problem is with COVID andhow that really did the opposite
.
That pushed people to not talkto each other and become even
(51:23):
more islands than they alreadywere, and now we're fighting
against that, plus the culturethat was already there.
So it's certainly can beoverwhelming, but I know we
wanted to.
We wanted to talk about humoras a as a positive coping skill
right, Because that is.
Humor is an incredibly goodcoping skill.
Speaker 1 (51:44):
So many dimensions of humor and I can definitely say
for me personally I got throughmy divorce through listening to
comedy a lot while cleaning.
So it was very normal forsomebody to come to like visit
me and like come by the housebecause I lived in a
multi-person household, mecleaning something and
(52:07):
intermittently hystericallylaughing so I have to ask who do
you have a favorite comedian?
oh gosh, it would.
It would take me quite a bit totry and pull something up
specifically without like crosschecking to be like has this
person been involved?
in anything that I do not wantto endorse.
Um, I like puns, I like wordhumor, like wordplay humor.
(52:33):
So there, there are a couple ofbut, but I think Mitch Hedberg
was a really good one for thatone and I think that, yeah.
So I think that sometimes, ifyou want to learn more about a
community, listen to a comedianfrom that community that is
talking about those things, andpeople who are focusing on
punching up rather than punchingdown.
(52:55):
I think that those things arewhat I would go for.
Speaker 2 (52:59):
I love copycats.
I purposely try to get in thefront because I want to be
picked on.
And I haven't been picked onyet.
Speaker 1 (53:08):
I can't wait to hear about it when it happens.
Achieve your goals.
Speaker 2 (53:15):
So I wanted to end with a funny story, but I wasn't
sure if there was anything youwanted to add before that, Erica
.
Speaker 1 (53:23):
I think that the story that you're going to share
, I am here for it.
Speaker 2 (53:28):
It's such a great story so I know you already
heard it, but I'll add a littlebit more flair to it when I'm
telling it.
I like to hike and I know wehave talked a little bit on a
couple episodes about theunnamed serial killer in New
England, the rumblings of it.
So when I go hiking I usuallyhave the AllTrails app and I
download the trail ahead of timeso I know what it looks like
(53:50):
and on this particular day itwas a new place and I did not do
that and I was trying todownload it and I had no Wi-Fi
connection and I had my glasseson my head because I'm looking
at my phone and of course I trip, but it was this very long,
exaggerated stumbly trip becauseI kept trying to catch myself
and when I finally hit theground I realized I couldn't see
(54:13):
anything because I didn't havemy glasses, because they had
fallen off my head they hadfallen off my head.
I did find them fairly quicklyand I was thinking to myself man
, I would not be the final girlin this movie.
All I was missing was the highheels running through the woods
(54:34):
as they broke Right.
Because then I also realizedthat, because I was looking at
my phone when I tripped, thatphone was projected somewhere
and the whole trail was justthis mass canopy of leaves.
It was like everywhere, like,and I couldn't find it.
So I'm like, of course I'mpanicking, you know, I'm just.
Have you ever lost your phone?
Like you know, like that?
Like sheer panic of, oh my godhow will I?
(54:57):
How will I get anything everagain?
Speaker 1 (55:00):
How am I going to find my way home?
That's, like my major concern.
Speaker 2 (55:06):
I'm like I cannot exist without GPS.
And so I'm looking and it wasclose to the entrance of the
park and there's this youngwoman sitting under the bridge.
So I went to her and Ibasically explained to her.
I was like listen, I just fell,I can't find my phone.
Can you call it?
So she was nice enough to comecall it and I'm thinking to
myself, wow, if this was ahorror movie, you wouldn't
survive either, because I couldbe the serial killer trying to
lure you out here.
(55:27):
But she was super nice.
And then, of course, my phonewas on silent, so of course it's
not ringing.
And then we couldn't do findyour iPhone because she wasn't a
contact of mine.
So it was this reallydisastrous moment.
But you know, it worked out.
Obviously, I found my phone andI thanked her.
But instead of taking thatevent and turning it into a God
(55:49):
this is such a terrible thingLike, I found humor in it and I
was laughing about it the wholetime and I'm like, of course
this would happen to me, right,like, like I said, I am not the
final girl in that movie meright, like, like I said, I am
not the final girl in that movie.
Speaker 1 (56:04):
Okay, I do.
I do actually have one to addthose to it, because this is a
theme of like, how do you tell?
Like embarrassment?
Oh my god, uh, wow, yeah.
So, uh, up until this story, Ihad never had a moment that I
would be like this was the mostembarrassing moment of my life.
Uh, and I can't believe I'mabout to say it on a recorded
podcast.
I love it.
So I went to UC Berkeley and Ilived in unit three, which is
(56:29):
like close to the downtown area,and I lived on the eighth floor
.
So beautiful view, etc.
Like great, but what it?
So the elevators, the way thatthey worked is you had to like
use a key to call the elevatorand I and it was like a you know
it was an elevator that hadsome character.
(56:49):
Sometimes it would move whilethe door was still open.
Like there's like all of thesethings about it that it was like
one of those things whereyou're like this elevator needs
a revamp, but of course you knowit's an educational system, so
like it's not, they don't quitehave the resources to do it or
something.
So there's this thing that youknow when, the when the elevator
(57:13):
door is closed, you know, likethe automatic thing, you stick
your hand and you whack the sideof the door and it opens again.
Yeah, not that day oh no so Igo in.
So I'm, like you know, a littledistracted etc.
Coming in from class I reach myhand to try and knock the thing
to open the elevator door.
It doesn't and it closes onyour arm on my arm and it's
(57:37):
caught, so my wrist caught, so Ican't pull my hand out, and so
I'm just.
That's terrifying.
Speaker 2 (57:46):
And.
Speaker 1 (57:46):
I'm processing.
I'm processing this information, and so the first floor is
entirely boys.
The first floor of the buildingis all boys, and so, of course,
while I'm sitting there, likeclose to this elevator, just
standing there with my wriststuck in it, the door opens and
(58:08):
the most absurd the stairwellopens and some guys come out and
the most like absurd thingsstart going off in my head, like
it's just like the t-rex, ifyou don't just like, don't say
anything, like I'm still liketrying to figure out what's
happening, what to do, and allof a sudden I hear from behind
(58:31):
me something like um, do youneed help?
And I am like no, I'm okay.
And I like I reach over withthe key.
I have enough ability to likekey the door again, and then it
opens.
And then I walk in and the doorcloses.
(58:52):
And probably about floor threeis where I like my hands are on
my face, being like oh, my god,what just happened?
And of was so, and of course,it was someone that like uh, you
know one of the guys that I sawrelatively regularly like and
uh, a couple days later, like uh, he held the door open for me
(59:18):
and I just like walked straightby.
I was like no, like, no, like Iwas just like I am so like I'm
probably bright red right now,uh, but yeah, that was like the
most I, to this day, I alwaysthink about.
It's just like a t-rex don'tmove.
If you don't move, it will bein the scene.
Speaker 2 (59:38):
That's hysterical oh man, I also, you know, when you
were telling me about it.
It also has a like it'sreminiscent of the movie Final
Destination.
That's what you know, and I'mgoing to see that tonight.
Actually, I'm going to see thenew part of it.
So glad it didn't end that wayoh my god.
Speaker 1 (59:56):
yeah, I just so.
Yeah, I think that being ableto find humor in whatever
situation is very helpful, sothanks for listening to us, and
I hope that you got a goodchuckle out of it too listeners,
absolutely, and thank you forsharing that, erica.
Speaker 2 (01:00:15):
That's awesome, and every time I see you, I'm going
to think T-Rex now.
Oh my God, yes, let's go for ityou know, next time you're
going to get one of thoseinflatable outfits on and put it
on.
Speaker 1 (01:00:24):
I was so, still, I was so still.
I was like a chameleon blendedinto the wall.
That's awesome.
Oh man, but not enough.
Speaker 2 (01:00:35):
Well, thank you everybody for tuning in again
and thank you, erica, for beinghere.
All right, take care everyone,hello everybody, and thank you
(01:01:02):
again for listening.
This is just a reminder that nopart of this podcast can be
duplicated or copied withoutwritten consent from either
myself or Wendy.
Thank you again.
Popular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.