November 11, 2025 • 48 mins
Wendy returns for reunion episode. Per listener request Matt shares some of his own personal trauma and how it impacted his relationships before and after his resolution.
Below is the poem I wrote when I was 33. This is how raw the feelings were back then. Thankfully the pain has been healed.
I am a bastard, thanks to you.
I bet 33 years ago you never imagined,
your polluted seed would create
the man that stands here
I N V I S I B L E
Did you think your whimsical germination
would harbor feelings of resentment powerful enough
to create the persona I have built my existence on?
Or does my illegitimacy
deny me the right to claim
this hatred I have for you.
I can’t comprehend the void of feeling
Held within your perverse core
That would allow you to give me away
Forgotten and packed, out of your sight
Out of your mind, like a stuffed animal
Left on the side of the road
Battered
Lonely
Damaged…only
Somewhere out there is a child who mourns
Its loss, helplessly pleading with the parents to
save it, before the unthinkable happens.
Or did it already happen?
Lifeless cloth shell swollen with cotton
has more value, than I to you.
I can relate
I have fonder memories of my own toys.
Of course they were in my life more often
I protected them with every ounce of my soul
I hugged when they were sad
I kept them company when they were alone.
Unconditional love, whatever that is
And no one ever had to ask them why they didn’t have a father?
Or “Why doesn’t he love you?
Or what did you do to make him leave?
But I’m the bastard.
Packsaddle son swaddled in rags
and left out for the Monday night trash.
That’s what you did to me.
Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!):
https://uppbeat.io/t/hartzmann/no-time-to-die
License code: S4CEQWLNQXVZUMU4
Artwork and logo design by Misty Rae.
Special thanks to Joanna Roux for editing help.
Special thanks to the listeners and all the wonderful people who helped listen to and provide feedback on the episode's prerelease.
Please feel free to email Matt topics or suggestions, questions or feedback.
Matt@unitedstatesofPTSD.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:14):
This podcast is not intended to serve as therapeutic
advice or to replace anyprofessional treatment.
These opinions belong to us anddo not reflect any company or
agency.
SPEAKER_03 (00:28):
Hello, everybody, and welcome back to another
episode of United States ofPTSD.
I am so excited today to have areturning co-host.
My friend Wendy has agreed tocome back to do an episode
today.
So welcome back, Wendy.
It's so good to see you.
SPEAKER_00 (00:45):
Oh my gosh, it is so amazing to be here.
Thank you so much for uh askingme on.
SPEAKER_03 (00:52):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (00:52):
Hope everyone's well.
SPEAKER_03 (00:54):
And I have to tell you something really funny.
I didn't want to tell you thisto re recording because I want
to get a kick out of it.
So I was cleaning up the otherday and I found this Christmas
present that says to Wendy.
And I don't even remember whatit is.
So at some point, I love that somuch.
At some point I have to drop itoff because it just says to
Wendy.
I know it's to you, but I haveno idea what it is.
(01:17):
Not a clue.
SPEAKER_00 (01:18):
Awesome.
Because it feels like a year orI'm sure I have a box for you
hanging around somewhere, butlife has been chaos.
So tell me as as it usually is.
Um yeah, so goodness only knowswhere it actually lives now.
SPEAKER_03 (01:33):
You're right.
Uh the other thing that I wantedto just kind of say really
quickly, and then we'll get intothe episode.
And um the last episode you andI did together was about
Comic-Con.
And funny, it was just this pastweekend.
So I went and I sent you thepictures of it.
And I just want to give a shoutout to some of the celebrities
that I met that were super nice.
(01:54):
I always like when they're kindand down to earth.
And I think you know, you seelike how much of humans they
are.
So Deborah Ann Walls Walls, youknow her.
She was in true blood.
Um, she's actually a gamer.
She was like the sweetest personever, I have to tell you.
Super kind, super genuine, supernice.
And uh the two Posey brothersfrom Teen Wolf, also incredibly
(02:17):
nice.
And then there was one guy, Ican't remember his name.
I'm actually gonna Google itreally quickly.
He was a Star Wars Star Warsperson.
Um let me look him up reallyquickly.
And it was a really funny story.
It just happened, um, ImanEspondi.
Does that sound familiar?
SPEAKER_00 (02:34):
No name sounds familiar in the world.
I don't know.
I own children's names.
SPEAKER_03 (02:37):
So I don't know him.
He played, because again, Idon't watch Star Wars.
SPEAKER_00 (02:41):
Um I know it's like the only flaw you have.
SPEAKER_03 (02:45):
Uh Shaka, I think it was.
But we were waiting to meetDeborah in line.
And actually, the funny story,the the person I was with, she
is she's a lesbian, and shelooked over and she said, Who's
that hot guy over there?
So we look over and we're like,damn, he is hot.
No idea who he is, no, like hasno line.
So um, I mean, there were peoplecoming, but and he was spending
a lot of time talking to them.
(03:06):
So we after we met Deborah, wewent over there and we're like,
Yeah, we have no idea who youare, but like we both thought
you were really hot.
So we wanted to come over andsay hi.
And he thought it was great.
He's such a nice, super niceguy, and actually autographed
the the picture that said thehot guy next to Deborah.
SPEAKER_00 (03:22):
Oh my god, that's a hysterical funny.
SPEAKER_03 (03:26):
Love that it was a great.
So I just wanted to tell youthat because it was so
reminiscent of the last time Isaw you, and just to kind of
doubt out to like how nice theywere.
Um so the reason I for thelisteners, the reason why I
asked Wendy uh back today isErica's on a little bit of a
break, and I had received somerequests to talk about my own
(03:48):
history of trauma because we didyour we did an episode called
Wendy's story back in seasonone.
And Erica has actually talked alot about their trauma, but
people were like, Well, wehaven't heard anything about
yours.
So I figured we would do thattoday, keep it a little bit
lighter because we've been doingsome really heavy topics over
the past year, um, incrediblyheavy topics.
(04:11):
So this will be a lighter topicbecause it has a great outcome.
SPEAKER_00 (04:16):
Um I I love that the first time I'm back on, um, I'm
asking you about your trauma.
SPEAKER_03 (04:24):
Like I love it.
SPEAKER_00 (04:25):
Thanks for saving that for me.
SPEAKER_03 (04:27):
Love it.
Um well, you're the I meanyou're seriously like the best
person that I could think to doit because one, we we know we're
friends, we know each otherreally well, and you just have
like such a light, funpersonality that I thought.
Oh and especially because it iskind of uh, I mean, I've worked
through it, so it's certainly abetter topic now.
And we have some similarities init, so we absolutely do.
(04:50):
I definitely want you to jump inas well.
SPEAKER_00 (04:53):
All right, thanks.
Yes, I'll um try and make it allabout me.
Um so can you kind of set thescene?
Um, how old were you um when youhad an inkling um about your
(05:15):
dad?
SPEAKER_03 (05:16):
And great, so great question.
I will give a little backstoryfor the listeners.
So I grew up in the 70s and 80s,right?
And uh obviously times are verydifferent back then.
Some of this is also pieces ofinformation that I have put
together, and it may not befactual because I don't know if
(05:38):
I have all of the pieces, so I'mjust basing on what I know.
SPEAKER_00 (05:42):
Uh my mom had I'm gonna interrupt you already.
Yeah, I think that that for methat's part of the trauma.
SPEAKER_03 (05:49):
Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (05:50):
Not not having that clear picture.
SPEAKER_03 (05:54):
Okay, sorry, go on.
No, that and that that is whathappens with trauma, and and
also being so young, we don'tconceptualize things the same
way we do as adults.
So my mom had me really young.
She was 18 when she had me, andum, my dad was also 18, but my
dad was not in the picture.
So he um, much like many peopleout there, he just kind of
(06:15):
disappeared, like he wasn'tinvolved in my life at all.
Um, now we I was born in RhodeIsland, but my mom and my
grandparents, my maternalgrandparents, had moved to
California shortly after I wasborn.
And I'm not sure why.
I mean, I can put the piecestogether.
I know my grandfather had a jobout there, and I almost wonder
if they were trying to start adifferent life because again,
(06:38):
early 70s, single mom, Catholicfamily.
I'm sure there was a lot of youknow trauma and shame that went
with that.
So my mom met a guy um that shelived with when I was really
young.
And I know at some point shesaid that they had told me that
he wasn't my biological father,but I don't know if I remembered
it that way.
(06:59):
Okay, because you know you'reyoung.
Yep.
So um we lived with him, and Ithink they were in a again, I I
don't think it was a superhealthy relationship.
And at some point we had movedback out to Rhode Island.
My grand, my grandmother, mymom, and myself, but he didn't
come.
And my grandfather had alsostayed out in California, and um
(07:22):
the the way it was explained tome was that he didn't have um he
couldn't find work out here.
I think he worked for Raytheon,I can't remember.
And uh so he had to stay inCalifornia to work, and you
know, we were out here uh livingwith my family.
So that that's the kind ofbackdrop to it.
Now, when I found out officiallythat this guy was not my father,
(07:46):
the way I found out was part ofwhat was incredibly traumatic.
And I know some of the peoplethat we've talked to have had
serious traumas, and this maynot compare, but it makes me
think of when we did the episodeon trauma Olympics.
Yep, trauma Olympics.
SPEAKER_02 (07:59):
Yep.
SPEAKER_03 (08:00):
It's not always comparable.
Trauma is trauma.
It's trauma, it's trauma.
But part of what I wasexperiencing in California was I
had these really bad nosebleeds,to the point that I mean, I
would go through likehandkerchiefs of blood.
And I remember being scared as akid, which is probably where I
got the blood phobia from.
Yeah, gosh.
My understanding was one of thereasons, one of the few reasons
(08:23):
was we moved out to Rhode Islandto get away from the dry heat.
That also would be better for myhealth.
And I know there were otherreasons.
But on really high pollen days,I would still get really bad
nosebleeds.
So when I was in sixth grade, sonow I'm I'm probably 11, because
I think you're 12 in sixthgrade, but I was always a year
younger.
Um, I was in for recess, and theteacher's desk was drawer was
(08:47):
open with all the files in it.
And you know, being an11-year-old nosy kid, I go and I
pull my file out because whynot?
Yeah.
I was bored.
It's a book of you.
Let me read it.
Yep.
So my memory's not super vividon this, but either it said
father unknown or it had mybiological father's name on it.
I can't remember which of thetwo it was because I remember it
(09:10):
two different ways.
But I saw it and immediately mywhole world kind of came
crashing down, right?
Like, what is this?
Who is this?
What is going on?
And I couldn't say anythingbecause of how I found out.
So if you picture, you know, an11-year-old kid sitting by
themselves in a classroom,realizing that their whole world
just kind of fell apart in asplit second with nothing they
(09:32):
could do about it.
I just started sobbing.
I put it back and I was justlike hysterical.
And I remember the teacher andall the kids came back in class
and I'm crying and freaking out.
And the teacher was like, What'swrong?
And of course, I'm just crying.
And every time she asks mewhat's wrong, I just keep crying
because I'm like, I can't.
So what am I gonna say?
(09:53):
Yeah.
They called my grandparentsbecause at the time my mom, you
know, like I said, she was asingle mom, so she worked
full-time.
And my grandparents came to pickme up at the school.
This is my my mom's uh my mom'sparents.
And uh, I just remember gettingin the car and screaming at the
top of my lungs, who is my likewho's my father?
Like I wanted to know right thenand there.
(10:15):
And they both got death, likedeathly quiet.
Neither one of them saidanything.
Um, and I, of course, I'm againhysterical.
We get to my grandparents'house, and I the I remember my
grandfather calling my motherand just saying, like, I heard
him say he knows you need totell him.
And I just like lost my mind.
(10:35):
And of course, I'm waiting andwaiting.
My mom couldn't come home rightaway.
I had to wait till she came outof work, and I'm just stewing on
this.
SPEAKER_00 (10:43):
Right.
And not to mention when you'rethat little, like a minute is a
much longer minute.
SPEAKER_03 (10:51):
Oh, God, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (10:53):
Than now.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (10:54):
It just takes forever.
And um, you know, my mom camehome and gave me a really brief
version of it.
It was kind of like, here's yourdad, he didn't really want
anything to do with you.
You know, he was just kind of ajerk, blah, blah, blah.
Um and she had called.
Remember, I said my she wasdating this guy at the time that
(11:15):
was living in California.
She she had called him.
And I spoke to him on the phone.
This is the last time I ever hada conversation with him.
And I remember him saying, youknow, I'm sorry you found out
this way.
Um, it doesn't change how I feelabout you, like you're always
going to be my son, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah.
I still love you.
Never heard from him again.
(11:35):
That was the end.
Yeah.
So that and my mom had actuallydestroyed all the pictures of
him in the house.
So I don't know what happened.
Obviously, there was something,there was something there that
occurred that I'm not privy toand never was.
But it just kind of rocked myworld.
Like, what do you do with that?
So, not only did the guy who wasmy biological father not want
(11:57):
anything to do with me, but thenthere was this guy who also was
like, hey, I'm your dad, I careabout you, and then poof, gone
the very next day.
That is incredibly traumatic foran 11-year-old.
It'd be traumatic for anybody.
SPEAKER_00 (12:10):
Yes, 100%.
And I think um what I would loveto unpack a little bit if if
you're up for it, is not onlywas your world completely um
etch a sketch is the only word Ican like it's just like
(12:31):
similarly, yes.
Um but having hearing you talkabout being in the classroom and
not being able to talk aboutwhat you just found.
Um did you feel that um did youfeel that way with your mom with
(12:59):
your grandparents?
Like it was it a subject afterthis kind of initial like
bombshell, was it a subject thatyou could bring up?
SPEAKER_03 (13:10):
No, no.
I mean, my grandparentscertainly would have never
talked about it because they,you know, they came from a very
different generation.
They were, you know, born in theearly 1900s.
That generation was very muchabout secrecy.
Yeah, not talking aboutanything.
Mental health certainly wasn'ttalked about back then.
And and my mom, I don't think mymom was super young herself at
(13:33):
the time.
So, I mean, I think about howyou know where I was when I was
in like my late 20s and early30s.
So, I mean, I think she wasdoing the best that she could,
but she grew up in a generationwhere you don't talk about it
either.
So, I mean, it was not uh therewas there was not real
encouragement to talk about it,and at the same time, it was
clear that it made heruncomfortable.
Yeah, and as a kid, as most kidsdo, you try to protect your
(13:56):
parents, so you don't really godown that road and you kind of
suffer in silence.
I did have a cousin that I alsoremembered this, and and I will
explain the story behind thislater on because there is some
some truth through it.
It's not as horrible as itsounds, I guess.
But I remember when I when Imentioned it to her, she was
four years older than me.
And uh she lived, we sheactually lived next door, and
(14:20):
she said, Oh, well, you know,she didn't want to tell you
because your uh what'd you say,your dad's like actually your
cousin or something.
And I was like, What?
And and of course, so I now Ihave that sitting in my head.
Later on as an adult, what itwhat it turned out that happened
was that uh this is socomplicated, but like my mom's
second cousin married my dad'slike great aunt.
(14:42):
So I mean there's like amarriage connection, but that
you know, okay, yeah.
I think my cousin probablyinterpreted that a different
way.
And I she could have also beentrying to get a reaction out of
me.
So all of that was sitting inthe back of the phone.
SPEAKER_00 (14:56):
Just so the listeners know, like I can
attest that Matt does not havelike an extra leg or uh the
third eye showing.
SPEAKER_03 (15:06):
Um so oh no, you just you just can't see it,
right?
Like it's like hidden.
SPEAKER_00 (15:11):
Right, right.
SPEAKER_03 (15:13):
You know, and then you if you add in the fact that
I was also struggling with mysexual identity, you know, right
around like 12 or 13, and all ofthat stuff is going on as well.
And again, in the 80s, itcertainly was not as talked
about or as accepted as it istoday.
(15:33):
So there was a lot of traumathat happened there, and it
impacted my relationships withmen going forward because I
often would see them as it waslike a love-hate relationship.
Like I just hated them, but atthe same time, I was attracted
to them because of the trauma Igrew up with.
Like every man in my life, withthe exception of my grandfather,
was really not great.
(15:55):
I mean, they were just kind ofabsent or you know, not
emotionally available orwhatever.
And then by the time my mommarried my current stepfather,
who, you know, I love mystepfather now, I was already at
like 14.
So developmentally, all of thatdamage had already been done.
SPEAKER_02 (16:12):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (16:12):
And, you know, I wouldn't, I mean, I wouldn't
pick a better stepfather.
I mean, he's great.
All of that stuff certainly didimpact how I had relationships
moving forward.
I mean, they were really justnot healthy.
So that that's kind of where thetrauma came from and how it
impacted me.
Now, I could tell the story ofwhere it ended up going and how
(16:35):
that happened, but I I didn'tknow Wendy if you wanted to add
to any of that, because I knowyou've had your own family
stuff.
SPEAKER_00 (16:41):
Yeah.
Um I've got a lot of trauma tochoose from.
Um I know, I'm sure everyonedoes.
Um so for me, um growing up, Ican't remember a time when I
didn't know that I was adopted.
(17:03):
Um and at the time that, andMatt and I are about the same
age, so we grew up in that sameum Gen X and proud of it.
So I I think there wasdefinitely um growing up with
(17:29):
with knowing it it was in asense othering.
Um and I can clearly remember umgosh, I was maybe six or seven.
Older than that.
(17:51):
I was probably like eight ornine.
Um excellent memory.
Um and my my brother, who wasthree years younger than me, um
said something like, Well,you're adopted, and he doesn't
know what that means.
Like, I don't know what thatmeans at that point.
(18:13):
Um and I remember how angry mymom got like just I had not seen
her that angry, like and likeyelling, sure.
But like kind of the low growlof like you apologize to your
(18:36):
sister, like um, and that's whenI learned, like, oh, oh, this is
not a good thing.
Um, and although it was sort ofout in the open, it was
absolutely something that I didnot feel like I could talk
about.
SPEAKER_03 (18:57):
And culturally speaking, for um younger people
who are listening, when we weregrowing up, that was when people
were throwing around, oh, you'readopted.
It was thrown as an insult.
Yeah.
It wasn't anything that was uhas acceptable as it is now.
I mean, I think people encouragepeople to adopt kids now, but
when we were growing up, it wasa stigma.
SPEAKER_00 (19:18):
Yeah.
And I mean, I can certainlyremember I think being in like
my freshman year of high schooland hearing that someone else
was adopted and they were likeproud of it.
And I was like, wow, like whatis that like?
Like you're a different species.
(19:40):
I don't understand how that ithow it could be positive.
Um and uh when I was adopted, uhapparently the person who uh
told that kind of just counseledmy parents um about how to talk
about it and when to talk aboutit, they said, you know, like
have an anniversary of like likethe human um version of a getcha
(20:06):
day.
So um it was always celebrated.
Um and I get like a littlepresent, and I mean y'all I'm
old and my mom up until likefive or ten years ago, I got a
(20:27):
card, I got a present, like itwas a thing.
Um I would love to hear how withcarrying all of that you're 14,
(20:48):
you finally have somebody inyour life as a father figure who
turns out to be great, but Ican't imagine you had the tools
to create a relationship withhim.
(21:08):
Like how how how do you start towork through this and to to work
through this thing that you'vebeen carrying?
SPEAKER_03 (21:17):
That's a for years.
That's a great question.
And again, this has nothing todo with him, because like I
said, he could do anything hecould have done differently or
better than he did.
At that point, I think thedamage had already been done.
And I think what needed to undothe damage wasn't available at
(21:38):
the time.
So something that I engaged in,and this is really common for
people who have trauma.
So if you're if you'relistening, this is part of what
happens in PTSD, is there'ssomething called repetition
compulsion where we are um weunconsciously reenact situations
and scenarios over and overagain until we gain mastery of
them.
(21:59):
All of my relationships fromthat point on until I was 40,
and I'll get to what happenedwhen I was 40, had the same
dynamic where I would find menwho were either emotionally
unavailable or um, you know,just really these kind of toxic
relationships, and then I wouldcling to them because that's
all, you know, it was something,right?
(22:20):
It was better than nothing.
And I was looking for healing inthat, but there was no healing
in that because I was obviouslyjust repeating the same
patterns.
Now it I struggled for yearswith this, and I was in therapy
for 15 years, and that was oneof the things that we spoke
about.
And interestingly enough, whathappened when I was 40 changed
(22:41):
my life, and the pattern endedalmost immediately.
And that's what happens when youget to a point where you where
you gain mastery, like you don'trepeat it anymore.
What happened was um what I didknow about my dad when I grew up
was that my dad had some sort ofweird kidney issue that
happened.
That's all I knew.
I didn't know anything elseabout his history, just that he
had some weird kidney issue.
(23:02):
And then I was tested for itwhen I was born and I didn't
have it.
Right around the time I was 40,I had this weird medical issue
that came up, and I still thedoctors could never figure out
what it was, but it prompted meto think, I don't know anything
about my medical background.
So, like, this is kind ofconcerning, especially now that
I'm 40.
(23:24):
And for the first time, I hadthis push to actually meet him
and like find him.
I had tossed around the idea acouple of years before, and I
had I found a phone number, Icalled it, and then I was busy,
so I never called back and kindof gave up on it.
And I went back and forth withthis like I hate him, I don't
want anything to know about him,and then I want to know about
(23:44):
him.
And I actually wrote a poemcalled I'm a bastard, and I
actually read it at a poetryreading one time, which was the
first time I've ever, and thelast time I've ever done that.
Um, I was really cathartic, Ihave to say.
SPEAKER_02 (23:56):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (23:57):
Oh, it sounded so I decided that I was gonna do
this.
So I had a friend who um, I'mnot gonna say where, because I
don't want to want her to get introuble, but part of what she
did was research.
That's part of what her job was.
So I gave her what information Ihad, and she tracked down him,
she tracked down two of mybrothers, and she tracked down
their phone numbers and theirwives' names and all that stuff.
(24:19):
So now I find out I havebrothers, and actually how that
played out was, you know, as Imentioned earlier, we had this
weird kind of family connection.
So I had gone to a wake, and oneof my relatives had said to me,
Oh, you look a lot like yourdad, you have the same smile as
your dad.
And that kind of brought moreawareness to it.
And then she said somethingabout my brothers, and I'm like,
(24:40):
wait, I have brothers?
Like, that's a whole notherthing, right?
Because I grew up as an onlychild.
So now that I thought I hadbrothers, that was even more of
a push because you know, I waslike, I want to meet them, and
they have nothing to do with it.
Like they're they're not, yeah,they have no oneness in this
whatsoever.
So now I have more motivation tomeet them.
So the scariest thing I've everdone in my entire life to date
(25:06):
is cold calling my brothers.
I I called both of the phonenumbers I had and I got generic
voicemails.
It didn't even say like, hi,this is so-and-so.
It just said you've reached thisnumber, please leave a message.
And leaving messages on boththeir voice messages that said,
Hi, this is my name.
I think I'm your brother.
Can you give me a call?
(25:28):
Scariest freaking thing I'veever done in my entire life.
Now, because you grew up withme, you know where some of this
goes.
And the story is actually kindof wild.
So, for those of you that areout there listening, it gets
like if you think this is wild,wait, wait till we get further
in the story.
SPEAKER_00 (25:43):
So the popcorn going, people.
SPEAKER_03 (25:45):
Like, yeah, I mean, this is like this is like uh
some Jerry Springer stuff, butbut actually not really, because
there's not drama involved.
It wouldn't be Jerry Springer,it'd be more like, I don't know,
like uh what's another talk showwhere it's Oprah.
I get well, I can't see, yeah,sure.
SPEAKER_00 (26:01):
I mean, I can't see it's Oprah, but no one gets a
car, but this would have beenright.
SPEAKER_03 (26:05):
Because it because it wasn't actually there wasn't
a lot of drama.
It was actually really great,but it was just the weirdness of
it, right?
So um one of my brothers calledme back the next day, and um,
this is where the story getsinteresting because the two
brothers I reached out to, healso didn't raise.
(26:26):
So he had he had married theirmother, but then he had left
shortly after they were bothborn.
So they actually didn't know himeither.
And they had just met him sixmonths prior.
So six months prior, they hadhad this kind of similar, let's
go meet him, let's go find outabout him.
And they met him and they, youknow, started obviously um
(26:50):
having more, like having arelationship with him, which
then led me to find out that Ihad three more brothers that he
did actually raise, that he, youknow, he was um with their
mother.
So the part that it gets weirderwith is that the two brothers
that I just previously.
SPEAKER_00 (27:08):
That was that is whack-a-doodle.
That is like a hallmark movie inthe making.
Um uh, but let's hold off untilwe hear the end.
Okay, go.
SPEAKER_03 (27:18):
Yes, because because you know there's more to this,
right?
So the the two that he alsodidn't raise that that he had
reached out to them, um thatthey had reached out to him.
I mean, it turns out they wentto high school with us.
So they went to high school withWendy and I, and they went to
junior high school with mebecause I had gone to a
different junior high schoolthan Wendy, and they had
actually gone to the sameschool.
(27:40):
They moved, I think, the yearbefore I did, to go to the the
town that Wendy and I ended upgoing to high school with.
So I was around them all thetime.
And and one of my really goodfriends was their neighbor.
And I was constantly at herhouse.
But the but they had actuallyhad a falling out.
So when I was friends with thisperson, she was no longer
(28:03):
friends with them, but theylived next door.
So I was constantly at herhouse, and then they worked at
the um, it's no longer thereanymore, but they worked at the
House of Pizza that was right onDiamond Hill Road.
SPEAKER_02 (28:13):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (28:13):
And I used to go there all the time, right?
So here I am having all of theseinteractions with them.
Don't know who the hell theyare, right?
Um, which is like wild.
SPEAKER_00 (28:25):
So I have um I have a a a question.
Um I have many questions, buthere's the one.
Ask away now.
Um, so I remember um my mindspinning starting in middle
school.
Um because that's when Ithought, you know, love
(28:47):
happened.
Of course.
Um we all do.
SPEAKER_02 (28:51):
We all do.
SPEAKER_00 (28:52):
Um so I remember being certainly being able to
work myself up, but umdefinitely having that thought
of like what if I date someoneI'm related to.
Oh my god.
Like, yeah, did you have thatyet?
SPEAKER_03 (29:13):
Yes.
Oh, well, you know, it so it wasa two so to answer your
question, I want to just go backa little bit because it was a
two-fold thing, right?
So not only was it terrifyingreaching out to them because
they could have been like, hey,we want nothing to do with you.
Like either of my brothers couldhave said that.
And I hadn't talked to my dadyet, and I hadn't talked to the
other three, but either one ofthem could have said, Hey, we
want nothing to do with you.
(29:33):
But then I also had to come outto them, and I have to tell you,
I mean, you know, you've knownme.
I've been out since I was 16,17.
At that point in my life, Ididn't even think about it.
I just assumed everybody knew,and I it's not, it just became
part of my identity likeanything else.
And I never had to worry aboutit.
All of a sudden, it was like Iwas back in high school, and I
was like, oh my God, I have tocome out to these people so they
(29:54):
can reject me for this and theycan reject me for that.
Right.
Um, I remember.
I remember jokingly saying toone of them, I'm glad you're all
straight, and that I didn't endup accidentally sleeping with
any of you.
So no, I totally, I totally getwhat you're saying.
Because I mean that couldhappen.
There's there's a thing calledDNA attraction where people who
have this actually shows up inbest friends too, where people's
(30:17):
best friends have a um, it's notlike 20% or anything, but they
have a a a higher percentagematch of DNA than you would with
a stranger because there'ssomething about the DNA that's
attracted to each other.
So I mean that I learned thatwhen I was going through all
this stuff.
Um, and so yeah, I mean thathappens when you yeah that
(30:38):
happens, but yeah, that wentthrough my mind.
SPEAKER_00 (30:40):
That totally went through my mind.
Amazing.
Amazing.
And you hearing you talk aboutthat actually um brings up like
spoiler alert, um I ended uptalking to my bio mom.
And that doesn't mean that sheis like toxic, like I just mean
(31:00):
biological mom.
Yeah, um uh when I was firsttalking to her and filling her
in on me and um my kids and allof that, I remember feeling like
(31:21):
the the red just crawl up myneck and to my face and being
like, oh my god, like I I thisis like the report card moment.
Like this is not only have yourejected me already, but now I'm
(31:42):
giving you like all of thesereasons to reject me again.
And it was horrifying.
SPEAKER_03 (31:52):
So yeah, it's super vulnerable.
It's it's a really scary timebecause you just don't.
I mean, I guess if you thinkabout it, you're not like you or
I wouldn't really be losinganything because we didn't
really have anything to beginwith, but it doesn't mean that
the the fear of losing it is notvalid.
(32:13):
I mean, it it is, it'sincredibly valid, right?
So like we have this fear, andum, you know, I was I was happy
that both of them were reallyreceptive, and they told me
about what our dad was like, andI had already reached out to my
dad at this point, and he didn'trespond.
Um, and I found the threebrothers that he did raise on
(32:35):
Facebook, so I messaged two ofthem and was like, Hey, uh
what's going on?
And um, you know, they were alsosuper great.
And, you know, my dad called meshortly after that.
It was probably again one of themost awkward conversations I've
ever had.
Like ever.
I remember one of the firstquestions he asked me was like,
(32:58):
How tall are you?
And I was like, Who the fuckcares how tall I am?
Like, that's what you meant tohave, you know what I mean?
Like I was so um, but I get butyou know, like now I get it
because I've had years toprocess it.
And in that moment, it was justlike lots of rage and anger.
And I'm a big, you know, as atherapist, and I'm I'm a big fan
(33:19):
of getting out your emotions andnot containing them because when
you get them out, they heal.
So I certainly didn't hold back.
I I let him know what I wasthinking.
Um he was super receptive.
And I have to tell you, one ofthe when we met, uh I had almost
instant respect for him over allthe anger when we met, and he
said, You can ask me anythingyou want, you can yell at me.
(33:42):
He's like, You can you can sayanything.
He goes, but I the the one thingI will not answer is anything
about your mother.
He's like, I won't answer anyquestions about your mother.
I'm not gonna comment about yourmother.
If you have any questions abouther, go ask her.
And I have to say a lot ofrespect for that because he
could have trashed her, he couldhave done anything, but he held
that boundary and was like, youknow, no, I will I'll only
(34:04):
answer these questions.
And I certainly did confront himabout a couple of things, and I
I do think he owned it.
And you know, then I met myother brothers that you know,
through that he he raised, andthen now I have great
relationships with all of them,and I really love my stepmother,
and you know, um couldn't askfor a better stepmother either.
(34:25):
But you know, now here we are 11years later, and I feel like I
should say I feel content thatit's almost like we it sometimes
it feels like we grew uptogether because of how close
the relationship is.
But there's times that I getreally angry because I think
about we didn't, right?
Yeah, because all those yearsthat we could have grown up and
(34:49):
had these like great memoriesand great relationships, and but
I don't get stuck on that.
And I think once I met him, onceI met my brothers, and once I
was accepted by them, mypatterns of my relationships
changed almost instantly.
I got out of a negativerelationship very shortly
afterwards, and then I never gotinto another one.
Like all of the relationshipsI've had, um, I've certainly
(35:11):
approached differently.
SPEAKER_02 (35:12):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (35:13):
Now I don't tolerate any of the BS that I used to
tolerate before.
And if it doesn't make me happy,I'm out.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (35:22):
So it it's which is no, uh you you say that um with
uh uh a little bit uhflippantly.
Is that even a word?
Yeah, no, you're right.
I don't know.
You're right, I don't know.
Um but um let's pretend it is.
Um, but that's huge.
SPEAKER_02 (35:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (35:45):
Like what an extraordinary way to to look at
this trauma and and how yes, howit has affected your life and
how it has affected yourrelationships.
(36:06):
But I love that you recognizethe the huge healing that you've
done and how it's affected therest of your life.
That is extraordinary.
SPEAKER_03 (36:25):
And you know what I also I want to add to, because I
think this is important.
I did not recognize this until Ihad been in it for a little
while.
Because when it happens, when itfirst happened, the situation
obviously is all about me,right?
Because it's this incrediblytraumatic thing.
And the only thing I'm thinkingof is how it impacts me.
But as time goes on, I start tothink about okay, how does it
(36:48):
impact other people?
Now, if anybody's had a similarexperience, there was a part of
me that felt like I wasbetraying my stepfather for now
reaching out to my biologicalfather.
And I actually think mystepfather felt that, even
though, like I said, I couldn'thave asked for a better
stepfather, and he did raise me,and I give him lots of credit.
(37:09):
It's not one shouldn't detractfrom the other, but it but it
feels that way to me, and Ithink sometimes it feels that
way to him.
I don't even talk about himaround my my stepfather at all.
Yeah, and then of course,there's there's the stuff with
my mom because I think sometimesit feels like I betrayed my mom.
Now, my mom has my mom is a veryproud woman and she's worked
(37:29):
really hard her whole life.
And I remember growing up, shehad one of the things that she
had made it very clear was thatshe didn't want any money from
him, she didn't want childsupport, she didn't want
anything because she didn't wantto feel like she owed him.
And then when I met him, one ofthe things she said was ask him
for all the child support heowes you.
And I'm like, whoa, whoa, holdon.
Hold on, hold on.
(37:50):
Like, you didn't want it, andnow you want me to go, like, no,
I'm all set.
Thanks.
Um, but I, you know, I thinkthat that's part of her own
trauma.
Like it came out of, you know,like your you know, turning your
back around, but I'm not.
I mean, you can have twodifferent things.
And then the other part was so Iwent from being an only child to
now having being the oldest offive brothers.
(38:15):
And now I find out uh there'salso possibly more out there.
That's a whole nother story.
I'm not gonna get into that.
SPEAKER_00 (38:21):
Um, so that's another bit of trauma.
SPEAKER_03 (38:24):
So I might be the oldest of like, I don't know, a
football team.
I don't know.
Uh, but but you know, thatchanges that that changes my
perception because now I go fromagain an only child to an older,
to the oldest child.
And then I think about the twosets of brothers, how in one
dynamic the oldest child thereis now not the oldest.
(38:46):
Yeah.
And the youngest isn't theyoungest.
And then in the other family,the oldest again is not the
oldest anymore.
Right.
So the only one that staysconsistent is the youngest of
all is always the youngest,right?
And I'm always the oldest.
SPEAKER_00 (38:59):
But in theory that we know about.
SPEAKER_01 (39:01):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (39:02):
But sure, but everybody in between, their
roles have changed and theiridentities have changed.
So it I think it impactseverybody.
It impacts them, it impacts me.
I'm certain, I'm certainly sureit impacted my stepmother when
she found out about there beingother kids out there.
SPEAKER_02 (39:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (39:17):
You know, and it and it impacted my brothers because
they grew up thinking that theydidn't have any brothers.
So I mean, it certainly didimpact everybody.
But I do think the the netresult was really positive.
I think we all have pretty goodrelationships with each other.
I'm incredibly grateful thatthey're in my lives.
It and it did, it shifted theway I had relationships because
(39:39):
now I see what healthy malerelationships look like.
SPEAKER_00 (39:43):
I love that.
I I just and I've been along forthe ride a little bit for for
pieces of this.
Um and I just draw so muchstrength and grace for myself
(40:12):
watching how you process all ofthese things, and they're huge,
and it comes from such and Ihope this phrasing is okay, like
in an ugly place, like thishorrible trauma that you've been
(40:39):
able to not push aside andreally examine and that you're
so healthy makes me mad.
I wouldn't give that far.
SPEAKER_03 (40:56):
But but certainly I think, yes.
I mean, I do have one of mybrothers who also had reached
out to him, um refuses to usethe word dad, won't call him
dad, yeah, say it at all.
And sometimes I think goes outof his way to I don't want to
say punish him, but like makehim do more work.
(41:17):
And you know, the way I look atit is that I could do the same
thing.
I could be really angry and say,listen, you stole like all this
time from my life.
I could, I could say that.
I mean, one thing that did popup, actually, I'll I'll talk
about a trauma that had happenedthat was the first time I got
really triggered was a couple ofChristmases ago.
I was at my my dad and mystepmother's house, and my
(41:39):
stepmother was showing videos.
Oh no, it wasn't Christmas.
I'm sorry, I think it was mydad's birthday, and we're
showing pictures of my dadthroughout the years.
SPEAKER_02 (41:49):
Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_03 (41:49):
And within those pictures were memories of my
brothers going to like Disneyand my brothers like taking
vacations and like all thesepictures of it.
And I I like lost it.
Like internally, I lost it.
And I remember saying to mysister-in-law, does she have any
clue like right now, like whoshe's showing this to?
(42:10):
Um, and my sister-in-law wasjust like, you know, you know
it's not on purpose.
And I'm like, I know.
And I I was really trying tointernalize that, but it got to
the point where I had to leave.
I was like, I can't watch onemore second of this.
Like, I need to go.
Because again, growing up with awith a single mom for the most
part, I mean, we were poor.
So I mean, we didn't really do alot of stuff.
(42:30):
And you know, my mom did whatshe what what she could do.
So we would take vacations tolike New Hampshire and stuff.
But seeing videos of andpictures of my brothers going to
Disney as kids and like takingtrips to like Aruba and all
these places, and I was justlike, nope, gotta go.
SPEAKER_02 (42:47):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (42:47):
Because it it really hit me and I cried all the way
home, you know.
Um, but but those moments arefew and far between.
So I mean, I could focus on thatand I could obsess over that.
However, what's that gonna dofor me in the long term?
I mean, all that's gonna do isit's gonna, it's gonna prevent
me from having a relationshipwith that with my dad while he's
(43:09):
alive.
SPEAKER_00 (43:10):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (43:10):
You know, and my brothers, or like while I'm
alive, right?
So I mean I could die tomorrow,you know, whatever.
SPEAKER_00 (43:15):
But uh no.
SPEAKER_03 (43:16):
Well, yeah, I know.
I'm not so I'm not like I Ipurposely choose not to live in
a place of anger because it'sjust not productive.
I think 11 years down the road,we've they've certainly done
enough to show me that theycare.
You know what I mean?
Like, and yeah, it's uh yeah, Imean, so that's but that's my
trauma.
That's that well, that's one ofmy biggest traumas.
(43:38):
I have multiple traumas, butthat that to me was the the
defining like that defined who Iwas out of anything and
everything that happened in mylife.
That was the biggest definingpiece of my identity.
SPEAKER_00 (43:55):
I love that it has such a warm ending, like not
ending, but like just that Idon't know, I just keep
picturing um this like witheredplant um just green and gorgeous
(44:20):
suddenly.
So thank you for being so openand honest.
Um and I know that I've heardthis story more than once, and
truly I my heart heals a littlebit every time I hear it.
(44:46):
Oh glad you are an extraordinaryperson, and I am super lucky.
Oh, thank you, Mandy.
SPEAKER_03 (44:57):
I feel that way about you too.
SPEAKER_00 (45:00):
And if anyone and if anyone asks me that outside of
this podcast, I will deny, deny,deny.
Oh, thank you.
Um I I think we are living in adifferent time now.
(45:22):
So hopefully there are differentexperiences.
But I know that a lot of peopleare going to connect with this
and and really um start theirown healing.
So thank you.
SPEAKER_03 (45:36):
You know, an interesting side note to talk
about nature and nurture, right?
So, again, as as I said, hewasn't around.
And one of the brothers marriedthis a woman who has the same
name as my stepmother, and hehas the same laugh, the same
mannerisms, the same everything.
Oh my god, it's kind of wild.
And they didn't, like I said,they didn't grow up together.
And I know when I, the one thatI went to high school with, I
(45:59):
remember when I met him in uh atthe time it was Jackie's Galaxy.
I met him in the parking lot,and I remember, and again, we
went to high school with him.
You know, you knew him.
Like I knew of him, and I lookedover at him and I'm like, how
did I not know that we wererelated?
Because we look so similar, butit it just never dawned on me,
(46:19):
you know.
Why would it?
You know, why would it go inthrough high school?
And uh yeah, it's just it's it'swild.
SPEAKER_00 (46:27):
Yeah, and it in that kind of realm, I think meeting,
and this is anotherconversation, but meeting my bio
mom, uh my first thought wasn'tlike, oh my gosh, like somebody
who looks like me.
(46:48):
It was so now I know how I lookwhen I'm gonna when I'm gonna
get older.
Like this sucks.
SPEAKER_01 (46:56):
Like I can't delude myself into thinking that I'm
gonna be uh, I don't know,gorgeous.
SPEAKER_03 (47:06):
Oh come on, you're you're gorgeous now.
What are you talking about?
Bless.
So thank you, Wendy.
Thank you so much for beingwilling to come back and do
this.
SPEAKER_00 (47:18):
My pleasure.
SPEAKER_03 (47:19):
I would love to have you come back any other time
that you want to.
SPEAKER_00 (47:22):
Oh, yes.
I um I'm in a much better placenow.
SPEAKER_03 (47:27):
That's great.
If and for the listeners outthere, so if you're struggling
with something like this, or ifyou've experienced something
like this and you want to talkabout it, or if there are things
that you are curious aboutasking me, or if you want some
suggestions or just feedback orthoughts, you can certainly
email me um mat at united statesat ptsd.com, and I certainly
(47:48):
will get back to you.
So thank you again, Wendy.
I appreciate it.
Thank you for all the listenersfor coming along with that wild
journey with me.
Hope you learned something aboutit.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (48:00):
All right, thanks, everybody.
SPEAKER_03 (48:24):
This is just a reminder that no part of this
podcast can be duplicated orcopied without written consent
from either myself or Wendy.
Thank you again.
This podcast is not intended to serve as therapeutic
advice or to replace anyprofessional treatment.
These opinions belong to us anddo not reflect any company or
agency.
SPEAKER_03 (00:28):
Hello, everybody, and welcome back to another
episode of United States ofPTSD.
I am so excited today to have areturning co-host.
My friend Wendy has agreed tocome back to do an episode
today.
So welcome back, Wendy.
It's so good to see you.
SPEAKER_00 (00:45):
Oh my gosh, it is so amazing to be here.
Thank you so much for uh askingme on.
SPEAKER_03 (00:52):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (00:52):
Hope everyone's well.
SPEAKER_03 (00:54):
And I have to tell you something really funny.
I didn't want to tell you thisto re recording because I want
to get a kick out of it.
So I was cleaning up the otherday and I found this Christmas
present that says to Wendy.
And I don't even remember whatit is.
So at some point, I love that somuch.
At some point I have to drop itoff because it just says to
Wendy.
I know it's to you, but I haveno idea what it is.
(01:17):
Not a clue.
SPEAKER_00 (01:18):
Awesome.
Because it feels like a year orI'm sure I have a box for you
hanging around somewhere, butlife has been chaos.
So tell me as as it usually is.
Um yeah, so goodness only knowswhere it actually lives now.
SPEAKER_03 (01:33):
You're right.
Uh the other thing that I wantedto just kind of say really
quickly, and then we'll get intothe episode.
And um the last episode you andI did together was about
Comic-Con.
And funny, it was just this pastweekend.
So I went and I sent you thepictures of it.
And I just want to give a shoutout to some of the celebrities
that I met that were super nice.
(01:54):
I always like when they're kindand down to earth.
And I think you know, you seelike how much of humans they
are.
So Deborah Ann Walls Walls, youknow her.
She was in true blood.
Um, she's actually a gamer.
She was like the sweetest personever, I have to tell you.
Super kind, super genuine, supernice.
And uh the two Posey brothersfrom Teen Wolf, also incredibly
(02:17):
nice.
And then there was one guy, Ican't remember his name.
I'm actually gonna Google itreally quickly.
He was a Star Wars Star Warsperson.
Um let me look him up reallyquickly.
And it was a really funny story.
It just happened, um, ImanEspondi.
Does that sound familiar?
SPEAKER_00 (02:34):
No name sounds familiar in the world.
I don't know.
I own children's names.
SPEAKER_03 (02:37):
So I don't know him.
He played, because again, Idon't watch Star Wars.
SPEAKER_00 (02:41):
Um I know it's like the only flaw you have.
SPEAKER_03 (02:45):
Uh Shaka, I think it was.
But we were waiting to meetDeborah in line.
And actually, the funny story,the the person I was with, she
is she's a lesbian, and shelooked over and she said, Who's
that hot guy over there?
So we look over and we're like,damn, he is hot.
No idea who he is, no, like hasno line.
So um, I mean, there were peoplecoming, but and he was spending
a lot of time talking to them.
(03:06):
So we after we met Deborah, wewent over there and we're like,
Yeah, we have no idea who youare, but like we both thought
you were really hot.
So we wanted to come over andsay hi.
And he thought it was great.
He's such a nice, super niceguy, and actually autographed
the the picture that said thehot guy next to Deborah.
SPEAKER_00 (03:22):
Oh my god, that's a hysterical funny.
SPEAKER_03 (03:26):
Love that it was a great.
So I just wanted to tell youthat because it was so
reminiscent of the last time Isaw you, and just to kind of
doubt out to like how nice theywere.
Um so the reason I for thelisteners, the reason why I
asked Wendy uh back today isErica's on a little bit of a
break, and I had received somerequests to talk about my own
(03:48):
history of trauma because we didyour we did an episode called
Wendy's story back in seasonone.
And Erica has actually talked alot about their trauma, but
people were like, Well, wehaven't heard anything about
yours.
So I figured we would do thattoday, keep it a little bit
lighter because we've been doingsome really heavy topics over
the past year, um, incrediblyheavy topics.
(04:11):
So this will be a lighter topicbecause it has a great outcome.
SPEAKER_00 (04:16):
Um I I love that the first time I'm back on, um, I'm
asking you about your trauma.
SPEAKER_03 (04:24):
Like I love it.
SPEAKER_00 (04:25):
Thanks for saving that for me.
SPEAKER_03 (04:27):
Love it.
Um well, you're the I meanyou're seriously like the best
person that I could think to doit because one, we we know we're
friends, we know each otherreally well, and you just have
like such a light, funpersonality that I thought.
Oh and especially because it iskind of uh, I mean, I've worked
through it, so it's certainly abetter topic now.
And we have some similarities init, so we absolutely do.
(04:50):
I definitely want you to jump inas well.
SPEAKER_00 (04:53):
All right, thanks.
Yes, I'll um try and make it allabout me.
Um so can you kind of set thescene?
Um, how old were you um when youhad an inkling um about your
(05:15):
dad?
SPEAKER_03 (05:16):
And great, so great question.
I will give a little backstoryfor the listeners.
So I grew up in the 70s and 80s,right?
And uh obviously times are verydifferent back then.
Some of this is also pieces ofinformation that I have put
together, and it may not befactual because I don't know if
(05:38):
I have all of the pieces, so I'mjust basing on what I know.
SPEAKER_00 (05:42):
Uh my mom had I'm gonna interrupt you already.
Yeah, I think that that for methat's part of the trauma.
SPEAKER_03 (05:49):
Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (05:50):
Not not having that clear picture.
SPEAKER_03 (05:54):
Okay, sorry, go on.
No, that and that that is whathappens with trauma, and and
also being so young, we don'tconceptualize things the same
way we do as adults.
So my mom had me really young.
She was 18 when she had me, andum, my dad was also 18, but my
dad was not in the picture.
So he um, much like many peopleout there, he just kind of
(06:15):
disappeared, like he wasn'tinvolved in my life at all.
Um, now we I was born in RhodeIsland, but my mom and my
grandparents, my maternalgrandparents, had moved to
California shortly after I wasborn.
And I'm not sure why.
I mean, I can put the piecestogether.
I know my grandfather had a jobout there, and I almost wonder
if they were trying to start adifferent life because again,
(06:38):
early 70s, single mom, Catholicfamily.
I'm sure there was a lot of youknow trauma and shame that went
with that.
So my mom met a guy um that shelived with when I was really
young.
And I know at some point shesaid that they had told me that
he wasn't my biological father,but I don't know if I remembered
it that way.
(06:59):
Okay, because you know you'reyoung.
Yep.
So um we lived with him, and Ithink they were in a again, I I
don't think it was a superhealthy relationship.
And at some point we had movedback out to Rhode Island.
My grand, my grandmother, mymom, and myself, but he didn't
come.
And my grandfather had alsostayed out in California, and um
(07:22):
the the way it was explained tome was that he didn't have um he
couldn't find work out here.
I think he worked for Raytheon,I can't remember.
And uh so he had to stay inCalifornia to work, and you
know, we were out here uh livingwith my family.
So that that's the kind ofbackdrop to it.
Now, when I found out officiallythat this guy was not my father,
(07:46):
the way I found out was part ofwhat was incredibly traumatic.
And I know some of the peoplethat we've talked to have had
serious traumas, and this maynot compare, but it makes me
think of when we did the episodeon trauma Olympics.
Yep, trauma Olympics.
SPEAKER_02 (07:59):
Yep.
SPEAKER_03 (08:00):
It's not always comparable.
Trauma is trauma.
It's trauma, it's trauma.
But part of what I wasexperiencing in California was I
had these really bad nosebleeds,to the point that I mean, I
would go through likehandkerchiefs of blood.
And I remember being scared as akid, which is probably where I
got the blood phobia from.
Yeah, gosh.
My understanding was one of thereasons, one of the few reasons
(08:23):
was we moved out to Rhode Islandto get away from the dry heat.
That also would be better for myhealth.
And I know there were otherreasons.
But on really high pollen days,I would still get really bad
nosebleeds.
So when I was in sixth grade, sonow I'm I'm probably 11, because
I think you're 12 in sixthgrade, but I was always a year
younger.
Um, I was in for recess, and theteacher's desk was drawer was
(08:47):
open with all the files in it.
And you know, being an11-year-old nosy kid, I go and I
pull my file out because whynot?
Yeah.
I was bored.
It's a book of you.
Let me read it.
Yep.
So my memory's not super vividon this, but either it said
father unknown or it had mybiological father's name on it.
I can't remember which of thetwo it was because I remember it
(09:10):
two different ways.
But I saw it and immediately mywhole world kind of came
crashing down, right?
Like, what is this?
Who is this?
What is going on?
And I couldn't say anythingbecause of how I found out.
So if you picture, you know, an11-year-old kid sitting by
themselves in a classroom,realizing that their whole world
just kind of fell apart in asplit second with nothing they
(09:32):
could do about it.
I just started sobbing.
I put it back and I was justlike hysterical.
And I remember the teacher andall the kids came back in class
and I'm crying and freaking out.
And the teacher was like, What'swrong?
And of course, I'm just crying.
And every time she asks mewhat's wrong, I just keep crying
because I'm like, I can't.
So what am I gonna say?
(09:53):
Yeah.
They called my grandparentsbecause at the time my mom, you
know, like I said, she was asingle mom, so she worked
full-time.
And my grandparents came to pickme up at the school.
This is my my mom's uh my mom'sparents.
And uh, I just remember gettingin the car and screaming at the
top of my lungs, who is my likewho's my father?
Like I wanted to know right thenand there.
(10:15):
And they both got death, likedeathly quiet.
Neither one of them saidanything.
Um, and I, of course, I'm againhysterical.
We get to my grandparents'house, and I the I remember my
grandfather calling my motherand just saying, like, I heard
him say he knows you need totell him.
And I just like lost my mind.
(10:35):
And of course, I'm waiting andwaiting.
My mom couldn't come home rightaway.
I had to wait till she came outof work, and I'm just stewing on
this.
SPEAKER_00 (10:43):
Right.
And not to mention when you'rethat little, like a minute is a
much longer minute.
SPEAKER_03 (10:51):
Oh, God, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (10:53):
Than now.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (10:54):
It just takes forever.
And um, you know, my mom camehome and gave me a really brief
version of it.
It was kind of like, here's yourdad, he didn't really want
anything to do with you.
You know, he was just kind of ajerk, blah, blah, blah.
Um and she had called.
Remember, I said my she wasdating this guy at the time that
(11:15):
was living in California.
She she had called him.
And I spoke to him on the phone.
This is the last time I ever hada conversation with him.
And I remember him saying, youknow, I'm sorry you found out
this way.
Um, it doesn't change how I feelabout you, like you're always
going to be my son, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah.
I still love you.
Never heard from him again.
(11:35):
That was the end.
Yeah.
So that and my mom had actuallydestroyed all the pictures of
him in the house.
So I don't know what happened.
Obviously, there was something,there was something there that
occurred that I'm not privy toand never was.
But it just kind of rocked myworld.
Like, what do you do with that?
So, not only did the guy who wasmy biological father not want
(11:57):
anything to do with me, but thenthere was this guy who also was
like, hey, I'm your dad, I careabout you, and then poof, gone
the very next day.
That is incredibly traumatic foran 11-year-old.
It'd be traumatic for anybody.
SPEAKER_00 (12:10):
Yes, 100%.
And I think um what I would loveto unpack a little bit if if
you're up for it, is not onlywas your world completely um
etch a sketch is the only word Ican like it's just like
(12:31):
similarly, yes.
Um but having hearing you talkabout being in the classroom and
not being able to talk aboutwhat you just found.
Um did you feel that um did youfeel that way with your mom with
(12:59):
your grandparents?
Like it was it a subject afterthis kind of initial like
bombshell, was it a subject thatyou could bring up?
SPEAKER_03 (13:10):
No, no.
I mean, my grandparentscertainly would have never
talked about it because they,you know, they came from a very
different generation.
They were, you know, born in theearly 1900s.
That generation was very muchabout secrecy.
Yeah, not talking aboutanything.
Mental health certainly wasn'ttalked about back then.
And and my mom, I don't think mymom was super young herself at
(13:33):
the time.
So, I mean, I think about howyou know where I was when I was
in like my late 20s and early30s.
So, I mean, I think she wasdoing the best that she could,
but she grew up in a generationwhere you don't talk about it
either.
So, I mean, it was not uh therewas there was not real
encouragement to talk about it,and at the same time, it was
clear that it made heruncomfortable.
Yeah, and as a kid, as most kidsdo, you try to protect your
(13:56):
parents, so you don't really godown that road and you kind of
suffer in silence.
I did have a cousin that I alsoremembered this, and and I will
explain the story behind thislater on because there is some
some truth through it.
It's not as horrible as itsounds, I guess.
But I remember when I when Imentioned it to her, she was
four years older than me.
And uh she lived, we sheactually lived next door, and
(14:20):
she said, Oh, well, you know,she didn't want to tell you
because your uh what'd you say,your dad's like actually your
cousin or something.
And I was like, What?
And and of course, so I now Ihave that sitting in my head.
Later on as an adult, what itwhat it turned out that happened
was that uh this is socomplicated, but like my mom's
second cousin married my dad'slike great aunt.
(14:42):
So I mean there's like amarriage connection, but that
you know, okay, yeah.
I think my cousin probablyinterpreted that a different
way.
And I she could have also beentrying to get a reaction out of
me.
So all of that was sitting inthe back of the phone.
SPEAKER_00 (14:56):
Just so the listeners know, like I can
attest that Matt does not havelike an extra leg or uh the
third eye showing.
SPEAKER_03 (15:06):
Um so oh no, you just you just can't see it,
right?
Like it's like hidden.
SPEAKER_00 (15:11):
Right, right.
SPEAKER_03 (15:13):
You know, and then you if you add in the fact that
I was also struggling with mysexual identity, you know, right
around like 12 or 13, and all ofthat stuff is going on as well.
And again, in the 80s, itcertainly was not as talked
about or as accepted as it istoday.
(15:33):
So there was a lot of traumathat happened there, and it
impacted my relationships withmen going forward because I
often would see them as it waslike a love-hate relationship.
Like I just hated them, but atthe same time, I was attracted
to them because of the trauma Igrew up with.
Like every man in my life, withthe exception of my grandfather,
was really not great.
(15:55):
I mean, they were just kind ofabsent or you know, not
emotionally available orwhatever.
And then by the time my mommarried my current stepfather,
who, you know, I love mystepfather now, I was already at
like 14.
So developmentally, all of thatdamage had already been done.
SPEAKER_02 (16:12):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (16:12):
And, you know, I wouldn't, I mean, I wouldn't
pick a better stepfather.
I mean, he's great.
All of that stuff certainly didimpact how I had relationships
moving forward.
I mean, they were really justnot healthy.
So that that's kind of where thetrauma came from and how it
impacted me.
Now, I could tell the story ofwhere it ended up going and how
(16:35):
that happened, but I I didn'tknow Wendy if you wanted to add
to any of that, because I knowyou've had your own family
stuff.
SPEAKER_00 (16:41):
Yeah.
Um I've got a lot of trauma tochoose from.
Um I know, I'm sure everyonedoes.
Um so for me, um growing up, Ican't remember a time when I
didn't know that I was adopted.
(17:03):
Um and at the time that, andMatt and I are about the same
age, so we grew up in that sameum Gen X and proud of it.
So I I think there wasdefinitely um growing up with
(17:29):
with knowing it it was in asense othering.
Um and I can clearly remember umgosh, I was maybe six or seven.
Older than that.
(17:51):
I was probably like eight ornine.
Um excellent memory.
Um and my my brother, who wasthree years younger than me, um
said something like, Well,you're adopted, and he doesn't
know what that means.
Like, I don't know what thatmeans at that point.
(18:13):
Um and I remember how angry mymom got like just I had not seen
her that angry, like and likeyelling, sure.
But like kind of the low growlof like you apologize to your
(18:36):
sister, like um, and that's whenI learned, like, oh, oh, this is
not a good thing.
Um, and although it was sort ofout in the open, it was
absolutely something that I didnot feel like I could talk
about.
SPEAKER_03 (18:57):
And culturally speaking, for um younger people
who are listening, when we weregrowing up, that was when people
were throwing around, oh, you'readopted.
It was thrown as an insult.
Yeah.
It wasn't anything that was uhas acceptable as it is now.
I mean, I think people encouragepeople to adopt kids now, but
when we were growing up, it wasa stigma.
SPEAKER_00 (19:18):
Yeah.
And I mean, I can certainlyremember I think being in like
my freshman year of high schooland hearing that someone else
was adopted and they were likeproud of it.
And I was like, wow, like whatis that like?
Like you're a different species.
(19:40):
I don't understand how that ithow it could be positive.
Um and uh when I was adopted, uhapparently the person who uh
told that kind of just counseledmy parents um about how to talk
about it and when to talk aboutit, they said, you know, like
have an anniversary of like likethe human um version of a getcha
(20:06):
day.
So um it was always celebrated.
Um and I get like a littlepresent, and I mean y'all I'm
old and my mom up until likefive or ten years ago, I got a
(20:27):
card, I got a present, like itwas a thing.
Um I would love to hear how withcarrying all of that you're 14,
(20:48):
you finally have somebody inyour life as a father figure who
turns out to be great, but Ican't imagine you had the tools
to create a relationship withhim.
(21:08):
Like how how how do you start towork through this and to to work
through this thing that you'vebeen carrying?
SPEAKER_03 (21:17):
That's a for years.
That's a great question.
And again, this has nothing todo with him, because like I
said, he could do anything hecould have done differently or
better than he did.
At that point, I think thedamage had already been done.
And I think what needed to undothe damage wasn't available at
(21:38):
the time.
So something that I engaged in,and this is really common for
people who have trauma.
So if you're if you'relistening, this is part of what
happens in PTSD, is there'ssomething called repetition
compulsion where we are um weunconsciously reenact situations
and scenarios over and overagain until we gain mastery of
them.
(21:59):
All of my relationships fromthat point on until I was 40,
and I'll get to what happenedwhen I was 40, had the same
dynamic where I would find menwho were either emotionally
unavailable or um, you know,just really these kind of toxic
relationships, and then I wouldcling to them because that's
all, you know, it was something,right?
(22:20):
It was better than nothing.
And I was looking for healing inthat, but there was no healing
in that because I was obviouslyjust repeating the same
patterns.
Now it I struggled for yearswith this, and I was in therapy
for 15 years, and that was oneof the things that we spoke
about.
And interestingly enough, whathappened when I was 40 changed
(22:41):
my life, and the pattern endedalmost immediately.
And that's what happens when youget to a point where you where
you gain mastery, like you don'trepeat it anymore.
What happened was um what I didknow about my dad when I grew up
was that my dad had some sort ofweird kidney issue that
happened.
That's all I knew.
I didn't know anything elseabout his history, just that he
had some weird kidney issue.
(23:02):
And then I was tested for itwhen I was born and I didn't
have it.
Right around the time I was 40,I had this weird medical issue
that came up, and I still thedoctors could never figure out
what it was, but it prompted meto think, I don't know anything
about my medical background.
So, like, this is kind ofconcerning, especially now that
I'm 40.
(23:24):
And for the first time, I hadthis push to actually meet him
and like find him.
I had tossed around the idea acouple of years before, and I
had I found a phone number, Icalled it, and then I was busy,
so I never called back and kindof gave up on it.
And I went back and forth withthis like I hate him, I don't
want anything to know about him,and then I want to know about
(23:44):
him.
And I actually wrote a poemcalled I'm a bastard, and I
actually read it at a poetryreading one time, which was the
first time I've ever, and thelast time I've ever done that.
Um, I was really cathartic, Ihave to say.
SPEAKER_02 (23:56):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (23:57):
Oh, it sounded so I decided that I was gonna do
this.
So I had a friend who um, I'mnot gonna say where, because I
don't want to want her to get introuble, but part of what she
did was research.
That's part of what her job was.
So I gave her what information Ihad, and she tracked down him,
she tracked down two of mybrothers, and she tracked down
their phone numbers and theirwives' names and all that stuff.
(24:19):
So now I find out I havebrothers, and actually how that
played out was, you know, as Imentioned earlier, we had this
weird kind of family connection.
So I had gone to a wake, and oneof my relatives had said to me,
Oh, you look a lot like yourdad, you have the same smile as
your dad.
And that kind of brought moreawareness to it.
And then she said somethingabout my brothers, and I'm like,
(24:40):
wait, I have brothers?
Like, that's a whole notherthing, right?
Because I grew up as an onlychild.
So now that I thought I hadbrothers, that was even more of
a push because you know, I waslike, I want to meet them, and
they have nothing to do with it.
Like they're they're not, yeah,they have no oneness in this
whatsoever.
So now I have more motivation tomeet them.
So the scariest thing I've everdone in my entire life to date
(25:06):
is cold calling my brothers.
I I called both of the phonenumbers I had and I got generic
voicemails.
It didn't even say like, hi,this is so-and-so.
It just said you've reached thisnumber, please leave a message.
And leaving messages on boththeir voice messages that said,
Hi, this is my name.
I think I'm your brother.
Can you give me a call?
(25:28):
Scariest freaking thing I'veever done in my entire life.
Now, because you grew up withme, you know where some of this
goes.
And the story is actually kindof wild.
So, for those of you that areout there listening, it gets
like if you think this is wild,wait, wait till we get further
in the story.
SPEAKER_00 (25:43):
So the popcorn going, people.
SPEAKER_03 (25:45):
Like, yeah, I mean, this is like this is like uh
some Jerry Springer stuff, butbut actually not really, because
there's not drama involved.
It wouldn't be Jerry Springer,it'd be more like, I don't know,
like uh what's another talk showwhere it's Oprah.
I get well, I can't see, yeah,sure.
SPEAKER_00 (26:01):
I mean, I can't see it's Oprah, but no one gets a
car, but this would have beenright.
SPEAKER_03 (26:05):
Because it because it wasn't actually there wasn't
a lot of drama.
It was actually really great,but it was just the weirdness of
it, right?
So um one of my brothers calledme back the next day, and um,
this is where the story getsinteresting because the two
brothers I reached out to, healso didn't raise.
(26:26):
So he had he had married theirmother, but then he had left
shortly after they were bothborn.
So they actually didn't know himeither.
And they had just met him sixmonths prior.
So six months prior, they hadhad this kind of similar, let's
go meet him, let's go find outabout him.
And they met him and they, youknow, started obviously um
(26:50):
having more, like having arelationship with him, which
then led me to find out that Ihad three more brothers that he
did actually raise, that he, youknow, he was um with their
mother.
So the part that it gets weirderwith is that the two brothers
that I just previously.
SPEAKER_00 (27:08):
That was that is whack-a-doodle.
That is like a hallmark movie inthe making.
Um uh, but let's hold off untilwe hear the end.
Okay, go.
SPEAKER_03 (27:18):
Yes, because because you know there's more to this,
right?
So the the two that he alsodidn't raise that that he had
reached out to them, um thatthey had reached out to him.
I mean, it turns out they wentto high school with us.
So they went to high school withWendy and I, and they went to
junior high school with mebecause I had gone to a
different junior high schoolthan Wendy, and they had
actually gone to the sameschool.
(27:40):
They moved, I think, the yearbefore I did, to go to the the
town that Wendy and I ended upgoing to high school with.
So I was around them all thetime.
And and one of my really goodfriends was their neighbor.
And I was constantly at herhouse.
But the but they had actuallyhad a falling out.
So when I was friends with thisperson, she was no longer
(28:03):
friends with them, but theylived next door.
So I was constantly at herhouse, and then they worked at
the um, it's no longer thereanymore, but they worked at the
House of Pizza that was right onDiamond Hill Road.
SPEAKER_02 (28:13):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (28:13):
And I used to go there all the time, right?
So here I am having all of theseinteractions with them.
Don't know who the hell theyare, right?
Um, which is like wild.
SPEAKER_00 (28:25):
So I have um I have a a a question.
Um I have many questions, buthere's the one.
Ask away now.
Um, so I remember um my mindspinning starting in middle
school.
Um because that's when Ithought, you know, love
(28:47):
happened.
Of course.
Um we all do.
SPEAKER_02 (28:51):
We all do.
SPEAKER_00 (28:52):
Um so I remember being certainly being able to
work myself up, but umdefinitely having that thought
of like what if I date someoneI'm related to.
Oh my god.
Like, yeah, did you have thatyet?
SPEAKER_03 (29:13):
Yes.
Oh, well, you know, it so it wasa two so to answer your
question, I want to just go backa little bit because it was a
two-fold thing, right?
So not only was it terrifyingreaching out to them because
they could have been like, hey,we want nothing to do with you.
Like either of my brothers couldhave said that.
And I hadn't talked to my dadyet, and I hadn't talked to the
other three, but either one ofthem could have said, Hey, we
want nothing to do with you.
(29:33):
But then I also had to come outto them, and I have to tell you,
I mean, you know, you've knownme.
I've been out since I was 16,17.
At that point in my life, Ididn't even think about it.
I just assumed everybody knew,and I it's not, it just became
part of my identity likeanything else.
And I never had to worry aboutit.
All of a sudden, it was like Iwas back in high school, and I
was like, oh my God, I have tocome out to these people so they
(29:54):
can reject me for this and theycan reject me for that.
Right.
Um, I remember.
I remember jokingly saying toone of them, I'm glad you're all
straight, and that I didn't endup accidentally sleeping with
any of you.
So no, I totally, I totally getwhat you're saying.
Because I mean that couldhappen.
There's there's a thing calledDNA attraction where people who
have this actually shows up inbest friends too, where people's
(30:17):
best friends have a um, it's notlike 20% or anything, but they
have a a a higher percentagematch of DNA than you would with
a stranger because there'ssomething about the DNA that's
attracted to each other.
So I mean that I learned thatwhen I was going through all
this stuff.
Um, and so yeah, I mean thathappens when you yeah that
(30:38):
happens, but yeah, that wentthrough my mind.
SPEAKER_00 (30:40):
That totally went through my mind.
Amazing.
Amazing.
And you hearing you talk aboutthat actually um brings up like
spoiler alert, um I ended uptalking to my bio mom.
And that doesn't mean that sheis like toxic, like I just mean
(31:00):
biological mom.
Yeah, um uh when I was firsttalking to her and filling her
in on me and um my kids and allof that, I remember feeling like
(31:21):
the the red just crawl up myneck and to my face and being
like, oh my god, like I I thisis like the report card moment.
Like this is not only have yourejected me already, but now I'm
(31:42):
giving you like all of thesereasons to reject me again.
And it was horrifying.
SPEAKER_03 (31:52):
So yeah, it's super vulnerable.
It's it's a really scary timebecause you just don't.
I mean, I guess if you thinkabout it, you're not like you or
I wouldn't really be losinganything because we didn't
really have anything to beginwith, but it doesn't mean that
the the fear of losing it is notvalid.
(32:13):
I mean, it it is, it'sincredibly valid, right?
So like we have this fear, andum, you know, I was I was happy
that both of them were reallyreceptive, and they told me
about what our dad was like, andI had already reached out to my
dad at this point, and he didn'trespond.
Um, and I found the threebrothers that he did raise on
(32:35):
Facebook, so I messaged two ofthem and was like, Hey, uh
what's going on?
And um, you know, they were alsosuper great.
And, you know, my dad called meshortly after that.
It was probably again one of themost awkward conversations I've
ever had.
Like ever.
I remember one of the firstquestions he asked me was like,
(32:58):
How tall are you?
And I was like, Who the fuckcares how tall I am?
Like, that's what you meant tohave, you know what I mean?
Like I was so um, but I get butyou know, like now I get it
because I've had years toprocess it.
And in that moment, it was justlike lots of rage and anger.
And I'm a big, you know, as atherapist, and I'm I'm a big fan
(33:19):
of getting out your emotions andnot containing them because when
you get them out, they heal.
So I certainly didn't hold back.
I I let him know what I wasthinking.
Um he was super receptive.
And I have to tell you, one ofthe when we met, uh I had almost
instant respect for him over allthe anger when we met, and he
said, You can ask me anythingyou want, you can yell at me.
(33:42):
He's like, You can you can sayanything.
He goes, but I the the one thingI will not answer is anything
about your mother.
He's like, I won't answer anyquestions about your mother.
I'm not gonna comment about yourmother.
If you have any questions abouther, go ask her.
And I have to say a lot ofrespect for that because he
could have trashed her, he couldhave done anything, but he held
that boundary and was like, youknow, no, I will I'll only
(34:04):
answer these questions.
And I certainly did confront himabout a couple of things, and I
I do think he owned it.
And you know, then I met myother brothers that you know,
through that he he raised, andthen now I have great
relationships with all of them,and I really love my stepmother,
and you know, um couldn't askfor a better stepmother either.
(34:25):
But you know, now here we are 11years later, and I feel like I
should say I feel content thatit's almost like we it sometimes
it feels like we grew uptogether because of how close
the relationship is.
But there's times that I getreally angry because I think
about we didn't, right?
Yeah, because all those yearsthat we could have grown up and
(34:49):
had these like great memoriesand great relationships, and but
I don't get stuck on that.
And I think once I met him, onceI met my brothers, and once I
was accepted by them, mypatterns of my relationships
changed almost instantly.
I got out of a negativerelationship very shortly
afterwards, and then I never gotinto another one.
Like all of the relationshipsI've had, um, I've certainly
(35:11):
approached differently.
SPEAKER_02 (35:12):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (35:13):
Now I don't tolerate any of the BS that I used to
tolerate before.
And if it doesn't make me happy,I'm out.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (35:22):
So it it's which is no, uh you you say that um with
uh uh a little bit uhflippantly.
Is that even a word?
Yeah, no, you're right.
I don't know.
You're right, I don't know.
Um but um let's pretend it is.
Um, but that's huge.
SPEAKER_02 (35:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (35:45):
Like what an extraordinary way to to look at
this trauma and and how yes, howit has affected your life and
how it has affected yourrelationships.
(36:06):
But I love that you recognizethe the huge healing that you've
done and how it's affected therest of your life.
That is extraordinary.
SPEAKER_03 (36:25):
And you know what I also I want to add to, because I
think this is important.
I did not recognize this until Ihad been in it for a little
while.
Because when it happens, when itfirst happened, the situation
obviously is all about me,right?
Because it's this incrediblytraumatic thing.
And the only thing I'm thinkingof is how it impacts me.
But as time goes on, I start tothink about okay, how does it
(36:48):
impact other people?
Now, if anybody's had a similarexperience, there was a part of
me that felt like I wasbetraying my stepfather for now
reaching out to my biologicalfather.
And I actually think mystepfather felt that, even
though, like I said, I couldn'thave asked for a better
stepfather, and he did raise me,and I give him lots of credit.
(37:09):
It's not one shouldn't detractfrom the other, but it but it
feels that way to me, and Ithink sometimes it feels that
way to him.
I don't even talk about himaround my my stepfather at all.
Yeah, and then of course,there's there's the stuff with
my mom because I think sometimesit feels like I betrayed my mom.
Now, my mom has my mom is a veryproud woman and she's worked
(37:29):
really hard her whole life.
And I remember growing up, shehad one of the things that she
had made it very clear was thatshe didn't want any money from
him, she didn't want childsupport, she didn't want
anything because she didn't wantto feel like she owed him.
And then when I met him, one ofthe things she said was ask him
for all the child support heowes you.
And I'm like, whoa, whoa, holdon.
Hold on, hold on.
(37:50):
Like, you didn't want it, andnow you want me to go, like, no,
I'm all set.
Thanks.
Um, but I, you know, I thinkthat that's part of her own
trauma.
Like it came out of, you know,like your you know, turning your
back around, but I'm not.
I mean, you can have twodifferent things.
And then the other part was so Iwent from being an only child to
now having being the oldest offive brothers.
(38:15):
And now I find out uh there'salso possibly more out there.
That's a whole nother story.
I'm not gonna get into that.
SPEAKER_00 (38:21):
Um, so that's another bit of trauma.
SPEAKER_03 (38:24):
So I might be the oldest of like, I don't know, a
football team.
I don't know.
Uh, but but you know, thatchanges that that changes my
perception because now I go fromagain an only child to an older,
to the oldest child.
And then I think about the twosets of brothers, how in one
dynamic the oldest child thereis now not the oldest.
(38:46):
Yeah.
And the youngest isn't theyoungest.
And then in the other family,the oldest again is not the
oldest anymore.
Right.
So the only one that staysconsistent is the youngest of
all is always the youngest,right?
And I'm always the oldest.
SPEAKER_00 (38:59):
But in theory that we know about.
SPEAKER_01 (39:01):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (39:02):
But sure, but everybody in between, their
roles have changed and theiridentities have changed.
So it I think it impactseverybody.
It impacts them, it impacts me.
I'm certain, I'm certainly sureit impacted my stepmother when
she found out about there beingother kids out there.
SPEAKER_02 (39:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (39:17):
You know, and it and it impacted my brothers because
they grew up thinking that theydidn't have any brothers.
So I mean, it certainly didimpact everybody.
But I do think the the netresult was really positive.
I think we all have pretty goodrelationships with each other.
I'm incredibly grateful thatthey're in my lives.
It and it did, it shifted theway I had relationships because
(39:39):
now I see what healthy malerelationships look like.
SPEAKER_00 (39:43):
I love that.
I I just and I've been along forthe ride a little bit for for
pieces of this.
Um and I just draw so muchstrength and grace for myself
(40:12):
watching how you process all ofthese things, and they're huge,
and it comes from such and Ihope this phrasing is okay, like
in an ugly place, like thishorrible trauma that you've been
(40:39):
able to not push aside andreally examine and that you're
so healthy makes me mad.
I wouldn't give that far.
SPEAKER_03 (40:56):
But but certainly I think, yes.
I mean, I do have one of mybrothers who also had reached
out to him, um refuses to usethe word dad, won't call him
dad, yeah, say it at all.
And sometimes I think goes outof his way to I don't want to
say punish him, but like makehim do more work.
(41:17):
And you know, the way I look atit is that I could do the same
thing.
I could be really angry and say,listen, you stole like all this
time from my life.
I could, I could say that.
I mean, one thing that did popup, actually, I'll I'll talk
about a trauma that had happenedthat was the first time I got
really triggered was a couple ofChristmases ago.
I was at my my dad and mystepmother's house, and my
(41:39):
stepmother was showing videos.
Oh no, it wasn't Christmas.
I'm sorry, I think it was mydad's birthday, and we're
showing pictures of my dadthroughout the years.
SPEAKER_02 (41:49):
Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_03 (41:49):
And within those pictures were memories of my
brothers going to like Disneyand my brothers like taking
vacations and like all thesepictures of it.
And I I like lost it.
Like internally, I lost it.
And I remember saying to mysister-in-law, does she have any
clue like right now, like whoshe's showing this to?
(42:10):
Um, and my sister-in-law wasjust like, you know, you know
it's not on purpose.
And I'm like, I know.
And I I was really trying tointernalize that, but it got to
the point where I had to leave.
I was like, I can't watch onemore second of this.
Like, I need to go.
Because again, growing up with awith a single mom for the most
part, I mean, we were poor.
So I mean, we didn't really do alot of stuff.
(42:30):
And you know, my mom did whatshe what what she could do.
So we would take vacations tolike New Hampshire and stuff.
But seeing videos of andpictures of my brothers going to
Disney as kids and like takingtrips to like Aruba and all
these places, and I was justlike, nope, gotta go.
SPEAKER_02 (42:47):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (42:47):
Because it it really hit me and I cried all the way
home, you know.
Um, but but those moments arefew and far between.
So I mean, I could focus on thatand I could obsess over that.
However, what's that gonna dofor me in the long term?
I mean, all that's gonna do isit's gonna, it's gonna prevent
me from having a relationshipwith that with my dad while he's
(43:09):
alive.
SPEAKER_00 (43:10):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (43:10):
You know, and my brothers, or like while I'm
alive, right?
So I mean I could die tomorrow,you know, whatever.
SPEAKER_00 (43:15):
But uh no.
SPEAKER_03 (43:16):
Well, yeah, I know.
I'm not so I'm not like I Ipurposely choose not to live in
a place of anger because it'sjust not productive.
I think 11 years down the road,we've they've certainly done
enough to show me that theycare.
You know what I mean?
Like, and yeah, it's uh yeah, Imean, so that's but that's my
trauma.
That's that well, that's one ofmy biggest traumas.
(43:38):
I have multiple traumas, butthat that to me was the the
defining like that defined who Iwas out of anything and
everything that happened in mylife.
That was the biggest definingpiece of my identity.
SPEAKER_00 (43:55):
I love that it has such a warm ending, like not
ending, but like just that Idon't know, I just keep
picturing um this like witheredplant um just green and gorgeous
(44:20):
suddenly.
So thank you for being so openand honest.
Um and I know that I've heardthis story more than once, and
truly I my heart heals a littlebit every time I hear it.
(44:46):
Oh glad you are an extraordinaryperson, and I am super lucky.
Oh, thank you, Mandy.
SPEAKER_03 (44:57):
I feel that way about you too.
SPEAKER_00 (45:00):
And if anyone and if anyone asks me that outside of
this podcast, I will deny, deny,deny.
Oh, thank you.
Um I I think we are living in adifferent time now.
(45:22):
So hopefully there are differentexperiences.
But I know that a lot of peopleare going to connect with this
and and really um start theirown healing.
So thank you.
SPEAKER_03 (45:36):
You know, an interesting side note to talk
about nature and nurture, right?
So, again, as as I said, hewasn't around.
And one of the brothers marriedthis a woman who has the same
name as my stepmother, and hehas the same laugh, the same
mannerisms, the same everything.
Oh my god, it's kind of wild.
And they didn't, like I said,they didn't grow up together.
And I know when I, the one thatI went to high school with, I
(45:59):
remember when I met him in uh atthe time it was Jackie's Galaxy.
I met him in the parking lot,and I remember, and again, we
went to high school with him.
You know, you knew him.
Like I knew of him, and I lookedover at him and I'm like, how
did I not know that we wererelated?
Because we look so similar, butit it just never dawned on me,
(46:19):
you know.
Why would it?
You know, why would it go inthrough high school?
And uh yeah, it's just it's it'swild.
SPEAKER_00 (46:27):
Yeah, and it in that kind of realm, I think meeting,
and this is anotherconversation, but meeting my bio
mom, uh my first thought wasn'tlike, oh my gosh, like somebody
who looks like me.
(46:48):
It was so now I know how I lookwhen I'm gonna when I'm gonna
get older.
Like this sucks.
SPEAKER_01 (46:56):
Like I can't delude myself into thinking that I'm
gonna be uh, I don't know,gorgeous.
SPEAKER_03 (47:06):
Oh come on, you're you're gorgeous now.
What are you talking about?
Bless.
So thank you, Wendy.
Thank you so much for beingwilling to come back and do
this.
SPEAKER_00 (47:18):
My pleasure.
SPEAKER_03 (47:19):
I would love to have you come back any other time
that you want to.
SPEAKER_00 (47:22):
Oh, yes.
I um I'm in a much better placenow.
SPEAKER_03 (47:27):
That's great.
If and for the listeners outthere, so if you're struggling
with something like this, or ifyou've experienced something
like this and you want to talkabout it, or if there are things
that you are curious aboutasking me, or if you want some
suggestions or just feedback orthoughts, you can certainly
email me um mat at united statesat ptsd.com, and I certainly
(47:48):
will get back to you.
So thank you again, Wendy.
I appreciate it.
Thank you for all the listenersfor coming along with that wild
journey with me.
Hope you learned something aboutit.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (48:00):
All right, thanks, everybody.
SPEAKER_03 (48:24):
This is just a reminder that no part of this
podcast can be duplicated orcopied without written consent
from either myself or Wendy.
Thank you again.
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