April 26, 2021 • 25 mins
Holly has spent most of her life trying to figure out where she fits and, after feeling like she wasn’t quite accepted anywhere, she’s learned that making her own community is what matters most in finding belonging.
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Episode Transcript
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Holly (00:10):
Moving on and getting older, it wasn't so much, your
exotic looking it was like, youknow, what are you? And then,
depending on who was asking it,it either felt accusatory, or it
felt curious, or it feltintrigued. So it would be the
same question, but it reallydepended on who was asking me.
DB Crema (00:31):
This is United States of Race, personal stories of how
our earliest memories determinea lifetime of relationships. I'm
your host DB Crema. And welcometo Episode 15. 15! Thank you so
much for listening. In just afew short months, we've grown
this show with support from you.
And it's our spring break hereat United States of Race from
May 1 to May 15th. We'll be backat it with a very special guest
(00:55):
on Monday, May 17th. So, markyour calendars and don't forget
to download Episode 16. There'llbe a special giveaway to go with
the show. And you can alsofollow us on Apple Podcasts or
Spotify or wherever you get yourpodcasts to automatically get a
reminder when the new episode isready. And in the meantime, be
sure to follow us on Instagram,Facebook and Twitter for regular
(01:18):
postings with extra content fromprevious episodes. Thanks for
listening.
Today, we're joined by Holly whooften feels like she's not fully
accepted for who she is. Soshe's learned that making her
own community is what mattersmost in finding belonging.
(01:41):
When did you become aware ofrace?
Holly (01:44):
You know, I think I first became race
aware just in my own house. Andwhat I mean by that is being
aware that I looked verydifferent than the rest of my
family members. I was muchdarker complected, my eyes were
very dark. I was just more dark.
And people would make commentswhether they were family
(02:10):
friends, or neighbors or family.
And the comments would besomething like that my
older sister looked a lot likemy mom. And my brother looked a
lot like my dad. And I had noidea who I looked like, you
know. So I just, I didn't reallynecessarily know where I fit as
(02:30):
far as just appearance wise. Andto a point where at one point I
asked my mom and I was probablysix or seven, maybe. And I asked
her if I was adopted. And my momresponded with, Oh, honey, don't
you know, I found you under arock, like hahaha, right. So,
you know, we're kind of laughingabout it, and then I'm full on
(02:52):
looking at her like no, but forreals. Like, am I adopted? You
know? And then she justreassured me like, Oh, no,
honey, no, you're definitelymine. I know your mine. You
know. I don't know if that'sbeing aware of race. It was just
being aware that I looked sodifferent, I felt. And I
remember having these thoughtsin my own head like I'd go
(03:13):
through family members. Do Ilook like my aunt? Do I look
like my cousin? Like I thoughtof all these family members that
were darker complected andtrying to find some reassurance
that way that I fit. Um, itdidn't help that I was the
middle child, you know, thatjust kind of threw me for a loop
as a kid. You know?
DB Crema (03:33):
Why? Why was it an issue? Like do you remember as a
kid why like the fact that youwere darker or looked slightly
different than everyone else wasplaying on your mind?
Holly (03:44):
Right? I don't remember a specific conversation like my
parents sitting us down orsitting me down and telling me,
you know, this is what ourfamily is about. This is, you
know, our story or these mightbe issues or challenges you
might face and whatnot, right?
Like, I didn't have a sit downconversation. If I did, I don't
remember it. It's probably justbecause like, all of my earliest
(04:05):
memories are with my family. SoI was in a very multiracial,
all-shades-everything from whenI was... like, I don't remember
my life any other way. So Ithink it was more just trying to
find my place. And that beingsomething that was very obvious
(04:25):
to me. And it probably wouldn'thave even, maybe it wouldn't
have you been a thing, if Ididn't internalize hearing
people constantly telling mysister and my brother how much
they looked like our parents.
And I didn't hear that myself.
DB Crema (04:41):
Do you remember then kind of entering into the world?
Separate from your family, doyou remember what feedback you
were getting then? How youlooked and your race or your
color? All those things?
Holly (04:52):
Uh huh.
Yeah. Mostly in elementaryschool, some comments. Um, I
remember a classmate saying, Oh,you're so lucky your tan all
year round. You know? Like, I'monly tan after spring break, but
your tan all year round. You'reso lucky. And I remember kids
comparing our complexions. Oh,and I was called exotic, of
(05:15):
course, I've been called that.
At a young age being told I wasexotic looking.
DB Crema (05:20):
And what does that mean?
Holly (05:21):
I have no idea. It meant something to that person. Like,
I looked different, I guess. Youknow, I know what it meant. I
knew what it meant.
DB Crema (05:32):
What did it mean?
Holly (05:33):
To me, it meant, you know, you're different. You
know, most of the kids we wentto school with at that age were
white. You know, I always thinkabout how lucky I feel like I
was to at least be in a classwith a couple other kids who
were also biracial. You know, Iwasn't by myself going through
that type of experience tryingto navigate that. And always,
(05:57):
always, always, always, it wasthe white kids that would be
like, you're not black, like,what? No, like, well, what
percentage? I mean, like, thatwas something that always struck
me personally, was how whitekids had a harder time digesting
the information that I shared asfar as my racial mixture. And it
(06:19):
was always like, Oh, I thoughtyou were Italian. I thought you
were Greek. I'm like, I'm gladthis is something you're
thinking about. Like, I'm gladthis is something that you are
preoccupied enough with whereyou have gone through different
ethnicities to try to put me ina box. Yeah, like, maybe you
should have been spending moretime studying algebra and trying
to figure out my genealogy.
DB Crema (06:38):
That's exactly what I was about to say.
Do you think it had to do withlike, some sort of like deep
seated...not fear, but I mean,look, you were told you're
exotic and beautiful. So peopleadmired you. And so they, you
know, to find out then that,that they're attracted to
socially, romantically,whatever, like, there's an
(07:00):
attraction to something thatthey don't feel comfortable
with?
Holly (07:03):
I'm nodding my head very vigorously right now. I yeah, I
feel like it was something thatwas hard for them to wrap their
heads around. You know, they hadmaybe already in their mind when
they, you know, when responseswere things like I thought you
were Greek or I thought you wereSpanish.
I thought you were Italian.
Like, you know, theseSouthern European
(07:31):
features they seem to think Ihad, right. Um, I mean, I think
it was a number of things. Ithink one it was probably trying
to put me in a box. And when myanswer did not put me in the box
that they thought I should fitinto. I think they were
genuinely confused. But then Ithink there was a, Yeah, I think
there was something that didn'tsit right with them. It was kind
(07:53):
of like a she's not like one ofus.
DB Crema (07:57):
What box do you check?
Holly (07:59):
Other, baby! I'm an Other. Though, sometimes I check
white, sometimes I check black,just because I was both. And I
didn't feel like checking thelittle other box that day, you
know.
DB Crema (08:13):
For myself, those boxes come up all the time. And
to this very day, I have ananxious response to the moment
when I know oh, I have to... I'mgonna have to answer this. I'm
gonna have to find somewhere...
I'm gonna have to find somewherewhere I fit.
Holly (08:28):
Yep.
Yep. Moving on, and gettingolder. It wasn't so much your
exotic looking. It was like, youknow, what are you? You know,
I'd answer and and say, Oh,well, I'm, you know, I think I
just said black, white, andNative American. And then, you
know, and then I would get allkinds of responses. Oh, I can
see the, you know, oh, you know,well, what...? Then that would
(08:50):
follow up questions like, well,what, what tribe or you know,
what Native American like, what?
Oh, Cherokee? Oh, I can I candefinitely see the Native
American you. Oh, I candefinitely see... you know, like
these, you know, picking apart.
Picking apart.
DB Crema (09:05):
Like everyone is a professional ethnographer.
Holly (09:07):
Um, seriously. One thing I do
remember is my mom (09:08):
"you are who you are." That it didn't matter.
It shouldn't matter. That we'rehumans. We're all worthy of the
same things. And don't ever letanybody make you feel like
you're less than, you know.
You're just exactly who you'resupposed to be. But my dad did
(09:32):
remind me of a story. I had comehome from school one day, and
one of my teachers had asked mewhat I was, what my race was,
because my dad asked me Well,how did you respond like, well,
what did you tell them? And Iresponded, I'm a human being, is
what I told this teacher, and Iremember my dad just telling me
(09:55):
how proud he was of me for thatbeing my answer to this adult
who was asking this young child,what are you? And so then to
kind of come back to thatquestion about the boxes that
are being checked, I think forme as a kid, it was kind of a
game. You know? It was just,like, I'm this, I'm that I
(10:17):
don't, you know, I'm all ofthis. So I'm just going to pick
one like, whatever. And then asI got older, you know, when I
understood more of what itmeant, then I would check other
and specify, it was just kind ofthis thing, you know, everybody
had to fill out a box. And so Ididn't carry much weight with
it. And the first time it reallygot to me in an emotional way,
(10:46):
was applying for colleges, whenI had to fill out those boxes.
And even in conversations inhigh school, I remember kids
being like, Oh my God, you're solucky. You could totally get
into any school you want. Youknow, I was informed by other
kids. This was not evensomething I'd heard from my
parents. This was from kids atschool, like, Oh, my God, you're
so lucky, you can totally goanywhere you want because you
(11:07):
can check any of these boxes.
Being, well, and I don't evensay it anymore. Like in our
family it is talked about thatwe are part Cherokee, and I'm
not sure how much weight isbeared on that. So I choose to
not include that in how Iidentify myself, because I'm
not, I don't feel right sayingI'm Native American, right?
(11:29):
Because I haven't had any ofthose experiences. And I'm not
even sure if that's just afamily story versus if that's
even... So anyway, my point is,I remember kids being like, Oh
my god, you should totally fillout your application that your
Native American, you can go tocollege for free. And I was
like, that's justso weird to me.
(11:51):
Even as a kid, I was like,that's really a weird thing to
do.
DB Crema (11:55):
Why did you think it was weird?
Holly (11:56):
I thought it was weird, because that wasn't my
experience in any capacity. Andit just felt wrong to do
something like that. To justlike, say that I'm Native
American, because it's a familystory. How? Why? What? No. No.
Please. So anyway. But to mypoint about the college
application. So I had filled outmy applications to all the
(12:21):
schools I applied to, but thisone particular University,
DB Crema (12:23):
For you, where have you found that space where you
called me and informed me thatother was not a minority, but
that I could change myapplication if I wanted to. You
know, you can check one of theseother boxes. And I told them,
and I said, No, you know, thisis who I am and I'm not going
(12:47):
o change my box even if you're gving me an opportunity to,
hat's not how I roll, like. I'mll of these things, I'm not
oing to pick one. So that'shat. I'm probably not going to
get into that school. But also,I was aware at that age, that I
was not having experiences asother family members, as other
(13:11):
friends of the racism they faed, and, you know, and all of th
se challenges that they have,just because they look black
and I was like, I'm not goingto take away an oppor
unity for someone else when Ihave had all of these opport
nities, and part of it, you knw, has to do with because of how
I look. I was like, I'm not gona do that.
(13:37):
fit in?
Holly (13:39):
Yeah, I don't know. I'm still working on it. I'm still
working on it. I'm still workingon the space that I fit in.
Like, it's a constant.
I mean, it's not something Ithink about every day, but you
know, as a child, I was just me.
And I had my friends and this iswho I was. And I always felt
(14:00):
accepted. I could say I wasaccepted by those who accepted
me, because those who didn't, Iwasn't going to spend time with
them anyway. And I was like, Oh,you're not my people. I'm not
gonna hang out with you. Andthat feeling the need to be part
of a community and like, notstill trying to figure out where
(14:24):
you fit in. I know... I feellike I've always just made my
own right. People who are gonnalove me for who I am. And I'm
going to love those for who theyare. And you know, and that's
what matters, but like, it stilldoes matter to me though.
Because when I went off tocollege, you know, it was just
it was such a different... thewhole thing was a whole new
(14:46):
world, right? Like, I'm like,What in the world? Where am I?
Where are the brothers andsisters over here?
Oh my god, likeI really had a moment where I
was like this school might needto white for me.
And I never was going to join asorority, ever. But my friends,
(15:08):
you know, they were going to doit. And I was like, Okay, I
guess I'll just do it. And so Iremember going to an
informational meeting where theyhad representatives from the
different houses there. And Iasked if there was an AKA
because my mom is an AKA. And soI was like, I'm a legacy. And I
introduced myself. And I justremember being told them like,
(15:31):
Yeah, but it's not nationallyrecognized or whatever. They
basically talked to their ownsorority down to me, and I could
tell right away, they didn'twant me.
DB Crema (15:38):
How did it feel? You were being told you weren't
black enough. How did it feel?
Holly (15:41):
Yeah. I think at the time I just remember being kind of
like, oh, okay, then I just kindof walked away, because I don't
think I even really registeredwhat happened. And, of course,
as an adult now, when I lookback, I think about that, and
I'm like, they clearly were justlike, we don't want you in our
sorority. You're not blackenough. And I wish at that time,
(16:03):
maybe I had asked, you know,gone a little deeper to be like,
Well, what does that mean? Like,I don't understand what that
means. Why would I not wantto...you know, why does that
matter?
DB Crema (16:14):
Do you ever feel like you're passing or do you feel
guilty for passing? Or do youfeel guilty for not being black
enough?
Holly (16:21):
No. And it's not guilt. I think it's because I hate that
term. And I know, it's becauseit's such a negative
connotation. And I personally,never... it's not something I'm
ashamed of. It's something I'mproud of. And it's, I'd never
tell anybody that I'm white. IfI'm asked, I'm the first person
to say exactly what my racialmix is. And I speak up whenever
(16:49):
I hear anything that is notokay. Right. And do my great
reveal. Haha!You thought you could say that
racist shit in front of me, butlittle do you know?! You talking
to a sister!I think that's my favorite part,
(17:11):
though. You see people's faces.
When they're like, What? Oh, Ididn't mean it. I didn't mean
it.
You thought you could say thatshit in my company. But you
can't. You can't.
But okay, so I would change thewording on that. I don't feel
(17:33):
guilty for not looking moreblack. I think I feel hurt that
because I don't present enoughthat other people within a
community that I love and feel apart of, don't recognize me as
being part of that community.
And that's not my family. Andthat's not my friends. But it's
(17:59):
society, right? As a whole, thatyou see me walking down the
street, no one is gonna sitthere and be like, there's a
black girl. Right? Um, and thatgives me privilege, which makes
me angry, because I should notbe treated any better for how I
(18:24):
look than, say, my cousins. AndI shouldn't be treated any
worse, because that's part ofwho I am. Right. And so...
I hope the sound of my childrenin the background or not...
DB Crema (18:46):
Oh God, yes, but t
Holly (18:46):
I know, I'm sorry.
They're running through thehouse. I don't know what's
happening, right now.
Okay, um, I've never calledmyself black. It's not out of
anything other than because Ifeel like I shouldn't. Because I
know how the world sees me. AndI know that the privileges I
have of, you know, because ofhow I look that someone's not
(19:09):
going to look at me and identifyme as that. So I feel like I
can't identify myself that way.
Um, even though I know I am. Andso that's why I've always said
I'm biracial, which is true,too, right? Um, but that is a
very real thing. And because I'mso aware that the way I look
(19:31):
protects me from a certain kindof racism that I kind of feel
like, this is gonna sound weird,almost like I haven't earned it
to be able to use thatidentifier, right. I have not
(19:53):
and I will not ever experience,the gravity of the racism that,
you know, fellow family membersand friends have experienced and
humans have experienced, becauseof what I look like. Um, but I
think what's hard for me onthat, too. And this is where the
(20:16):
imposter syndrome comes in alittle bit is that doesn't mean
I haven't had my own experiencesof racism. They're just
different. And they're notviolent in the way of police
brutality, or micro aggressionsof being followed in stores or
anything like that. But I'vebeen harmed. And I know it is
(20:39):
because of race.
You know, this is interesting.
This was a story I wanted totell you. I've been thinking
about it a lot lately with thestate of things in our country.
This is a very vivid memory ofbeing about probably 6, 7, or 8
years old.
(21:02):
My parents were at a footballgame. And our babysitter was
over. And my brother, sister andI, we were all in the living
room. And I just remember, therewas this magazine that I saw. It
was like Newsweek or Time,something like that. But on the
cover of this magazine was ahooded Klansmen. Like all it
(21:27):
was, was like the hood with theeyes. That was the cover. And it
scared the crap out of me. And Ihad no idea what it was. I just
knew it scared me. And I askedour babysitter, what is that?
She said, Oh, that's the Ku KluxKlan. And I then learned who the
(21:54):
Ku Klux Klan were. That theyhated black people, and that
they, they kill black people.
And I was terrified. I remembergoing to the front of the window
of our house. I looked out toour street. And I remember just
going and looking down thestreet, wanting my parents to
get home, because I wasterrified that they were going
(22:16):
to come get us; the Klan. Ienvisioned... this was seriously
the story that was playing outin my head while I was looking
down the street wanting myparents to come home. Because I
was envisioning the Klanmarching down our street coming
towards us, like these peopleand their white hoods and their
things coming towards us. And Iwas so scared that they were
gonna come get us. And then inmy head, I thought, but maybe
(22:37):
there's some people that areblack, and they're in black
robes and hoods, and they'regonna come, you know, where the
Klan are. And they hate thewhite people. And they're going
to kill the Klan. And then I hadthe moment where I realized, but
then they would hate me too.
(23:00):
So it was this feeling of like,white people hate me, because
I'm black and the black peopleare gonna hate me because I
white.
And then I was like, we'rescrewed!
(23:25):
In a lot of ways, I still feelthat way, as a grown woman.
Like, besides my little worldand community that I've picked
and chosen, lucky enough to havethe family I have and then the
friends that I have. You know,that's definitely how I see the
(23:47):
world a lot is like, I'm gonnabe hated at some level because
I'm white, and I'm going to behated on some level because I'm
black.
So all I can do is do me,you know?
DB Crema (24:15):
Thanks for listening to United States of Race. The
podcast was produced by me DBCrema. Our artwork is designed
by Ali creative, and our show ishosted by buzzsprout which makes
it easy to start a podcast, getit listed with all the
directories and get your messageout to listeners everywhere. If
you love great storytelling, youcan follow United States of race
(24:37):
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(25:00):
a story to share, send us amessage at
unitedstatesofrace@gmail.com.
Until next time!
Moving on and getting older, it wasn't so much, your
exotic looking it was like, youknow, what are you? And then,
depending on who was asking it,it either felt accusatory, or it
felt curious, or it feltintrigued. So it would be the
same question, but it reallydepended on who was asking me.
DB Crema (00:31):
This is United States of Race, personal stories of how
our earliest memories determinea lifetime of relationships. I'm
your host DB Crema. And welcometo Episode 15. 15! Thank you so
much for listening. In just afew short months, we've grown
this show with support from you.
And it's our spring break hereat United States of Race from
May 1 to May 15th. We'll be backat it with a very special guest
(00:55):
on Monday, May 17th. So, markyour calendars and don't forget
to download Episode 16. There'llbe a special giveaway to go with
the show. And you can alsofollow us on Apple Podcasts or
Spotify or wherever you get yourpodcasts to automatically get a
reminder when the new episode isready. And in the meantime, be
sure to follow us on Instagram,Facebook and Twitter for regular
(01:18):
postings with extra content fromprevious episodes. Thanks for
listening.
Today, we're joined by Holly whooften feels like she's not fully
accepted for who she is. Soshe's learned that making her
own community is what mattersmost in finding belonging.
(01:41):
When did you become aware ofrace?
Holly (01:44):
You know, I think I first became race
aware just in my own house. Andwhat I mean by that is being
aware that I looked verydifferent than the rest of my
family members. I was muchdarker complected, my eyes were
very dark. I was just more dark.
And people would make commentswhether they were family
(02:10):
friends, or neighbors or family.
And the comments would besomething like that my
older sister looked a lot likemy mom. And my brother looked a
lot like my dad. And I had noidea who I looked like, you
know. So I just, I didn't reallynecessarily know where I fit as
(02:30):
far as just appearance wise. Andto a point where at one point I
asked my mom and I was probablysix or seven, maybe. And I asked
her if I was adopted. And my momresponded with, Oh, honey, don't
you know, I found you under arock, like hahaha, right. So,
you know, we're kind of laughingabout it, and then I'm full on
(02:52):
looking at her like no, but forreals. Like, am I adopted? You
know? And then she justreassured me like, Oh, no,
honey, no, you're definitelymine. I know your mine. You
know. I don't know if that'sbeing aware of race. It was just
being aware that I looked sodifferent, I felt. And I
remember having these thoughtsin my own head like I'd go
(03:13):
through family members. Do Ilook like my aunt? Do I look
like my cousin? Like I thoughtof all these family members that
were darker complected andtrying to find some reassurance
that way that I fit. Um, itdidn't help that I was the
middle child, you know, thatjust kind of threw me for a loop
as a kid. You know?
DB Crema (03:33):
Why? Why was it an issue? Like do you remember as a
kid why like the fact that youwere darker or looked slightly
different than everyone else wasplaying on your mind?
Holly (03:44):
Right? I don't remember a specific conversation like my
parents sitting us down orsitting me down and telling me,
you know, this is what ourfamily is about. This is, you
know, our story or these mightbe issues or challenges you
might face and whatnot, right?
Like, I didn't have a sit downconversation. If I did, I don't
remember it. It's probably justbecause like, all of my earliest
(04:05):
memories are with my family. SoI was in a very multiracial,
all-shades-everything from whenI was... like, I don't remember
my life any other way. So Ithink it was more just trying to
find my place. And that beingsomething that was very obvious
(04:25):
to me. And it probably wouldn'thave even, maybe it wouldn't
have you been a thing, if Ididn't internalize hearing
people constantly telling mysister and my brother how much
they looked like our parents.
And I didn't hear that myself.
DB Crema (04:41):
Do you remember then kind of entering into the world?
Separate from your family, doyou remember what feedback you
were getting then? How youlooked and your race or your
color? All those things?
Holly (04:52):
Uh huh.
Yeah. Mostly in elementaryschool, some comments. Um, I
remember a classmate saying, Oh,you're so lucky your tan all
year round. You know? Like, I'monly tan after spring break, but
your tan all year round. You'reso lucky. And I remember kids
comparing our complexions. Oh,and I was called exotic, of
(05:15):
course, I've been called that.
At a young age being told I wasexotic looking.
DB Crema (05:20):
And what does that mean?
Holly (05:21):
I have no idea. It meant something to that person. Like,
I looked different, I guess. Youknow, I know what it meant. I
knew what it meant.
DB Crema (05:32):
What did it mean?
Holly (05:33):
To me, it meant, you know, you're different. You
know, most of the kids we wentto school with at that age were
white. You know, I always thinkabout how lucky I feel like I
was to at least be in a classwith a couple other kids who
were also biracial. You know, Iwasn't by myself going through
that type of experience tryingto navigate that. And always,
(05:57):
always, always, always, it wasthe white kids that would be
like, you're not black, like,what? No, like, well, what
percentage? I mean, like, thatwas something that always struck
me personally, was how whitekids had a harder time digesting
the information that I shared asfar as my racial mixture. And it
(06:19):
was always like, Oh, I thoughtyou were Italian. I thought you
were Greek. I'm like, I'm gladthis is something you're
thinking about. Like, I'm gladthis is something that you are
preoccupied enough with whereyou have gone through different
ethnicities to try to put me ina box. Yeah, like, maybe you
should have been spending moretime studying algebra and trying
to figure out my genealogy.
DB Crema (06:38):
That's exactly what I was about to say.
Do you think it had to do withlike, some sort of like deep
seated...not fear, but I mean,look, you were told you're
exotic and beautiful. So peopleadmired you. And so they, you
know, to find out then that,that they're attracted to
socially, romantically,whatever, like, there's an
(07:00):
attraction to something thatthey don't feel comfortable
with?
Holly (07:03):
I'm nodding my head very vigorously right now. I yeah, I
feel like it was something thatwas hard for them to wrap their
heads around. You know, they hadmaybe already in their mind when
they, you know, when responseswere things like I thought you
were Greek or I thought you wereSpanish.
I thought you were Italian.
Like, you know, theseSouthern European
(07:31):
features they seem to think Ihad, right. Um, I mean, I think
it was a number of things. Ithink one it was probably trying
to put me in a box. And when myanswer did not put me in the box
that they thought I should fitinto. I think they were
genuinely confused. But then Ithink there was a, Yeah, I think
there was something that didn'tsit right with them. It was kind
(07:53):
of like a she's not like one ofus.
DB Crema (07:57):
What box do you check?
Holly (07:59):
Other, baby! I'm an Other. Though, sometimes I check
white, sometimes I check black,just because I was both. And I
didn't feel like checking thelittle other box that day, you
know.
DB Crema (08:13):
For myself, those boxes come up all the time. And
to this very day, I have ananxious response to the moment
when I know oh, I have to... I'mgonna have to answer this. I'm
gonna have to find somewhere...
I'm gonna have to find somewherewhere I fit.
Holly (08:28):
Yep.
Yep. Moving on, and gettingolder. It wasn't so much your
exotic looking. It was like, youknow, what are you? You know,
I'd answer and and say, Oh,well, I'm, you know, I think I
just said black, white, andNative American. And then, you
know, and then I would get allkinds of responses. Oh, I can
see the, you know, oh, you know,well, what...? Then that would
(08:50):
follow up questions like, well,what, what tribe or you know,
what Native American like, what?
Oh, Cherokee? Oh, I can I candefinitely see the Native
American you. Oh, I candefinitely see... you know, like
these, you know, picking apart.
Picking apart.
DB Crema (09:05):
Like everyone is a professional ethnographer.
Holly (09:07):
Um, seriously. One thing I do
remember is my mom (09:08):
"you are who you are." That it didn't matter.
It shouldn't matter. That we'rehumans. We're all worthy of the
same things. And don't ever letanybody make you feel like
you're less than, you know.
You're just exactly who you'resupposed to be. But my dad did
(09:32):
remind me of a story. I had comehome from school one day, and
one of my teachers had asked mewhat I was, what my race was,
because my dad asked me Well,how did you respond like, well,
what did you tell them? And Iresponded, I'm a human being, is
what I told this teacher, and Iremember my dad just telling me
(09:55):
how proud he was of me for thatbeing my answer to this adult
who was asking this young child,what are you? And so then to
kind of come back to thatquestion about the boxes that
are being checked, I think forme as a kid, it was kind of a
game. You know? It was just,like, I'm this, I'm that I
(10:17):
don't, you know, I'm all ofthis. So I'm just going to pick
one like, whatever. And then asI got older, you know, when I
understood more of what itmeant, then I would check other
and specify, it was just kind ofthis thing, you know, everybody
had to fill out a box. And so Ididn't carry much weight with
it. And the first time it reallygot to me in an emotional way,
(10:46):
was applying for colleges, whenI had to fill out those boxes.
And even in conversations inhigh school, I remember kids
being like, Oh my God, you're solucky. You could totally get
into any school you want. Youknow, I was informed by other
kids. This was not evensomething I'd heard from my
parents. This was from kids atschool, like, Oh, my God, you're
so lucky, you can totally goanywhere you want because you
(11:07):
can check any of these boxes.
Being, well, and I don't evensay it anymore. Like in our
family it is talked about thatwe are part Cherokee, and I'm
not sure how much weight isbeared on that. So I choose to
not include that in how Iidentify myself, because I'm
not, I don't feel right sayingI'm Native American, right?
(11:29):
Because I haven't had any ofthose experiences. And I'm not
even sure if that's just afamily story versus if that's
even... So anyway, my point is,I remember kids being like, Oh
my god, you should totally fillout your application that your
Native American, you can go tocollege for free. And I was
like, that's justso weird to me.
(11:51):
Even as a kid, I was like,that's really a weird thing to
do.
DB Crema (11:55):
Why did you think it was weird?
Holly (11:56):
I thought it was weird, because that wasn't my
experience in any capacity. Andit just felt wrong to do
something like that. To justlike, say that I'm Native
American, because it's a familystory. How? Why? What? No. No.
Please. So anyway. But to mypoint about the college
application. So I had filled outmy applications to all the
(12:21):
schools I applied to, but thisone particular University,
DB Crema (12:23):
For you, where have you found that space where you
called me and informed me thatother was not a minority, but
that I could change myapplication if I wanted to. You
know, you can check one of theseother boxes. And I told them,
and I said, No, you know, thisis who I am and I'm not going
(12:47):
o change my box even if you're gving me an opportunity to,
hat's not how I roll, like. I'mll of these things, I'm not
oing to pick one. So that'shat. I'm probably not going to
get into that school. But also,I was aware at that age, that I
was not having experiences asother family members, as other
(13:11):
friends of the racism they faed, and, you know, and all of th
se challenges that they have,just because they look black
and I was like, I'm not goingto take away an oppor
unity for someone else when Ihave had all of these opport
nities, and part of it, you knw, has to do with because of how
I look. I was like, I'm not gona do that.
(13:37):
fit in?
Holly (13:39):
Yeah, I don't know. I'm still working on it. I'm still
working on it. I'm still workingon the space that I fit in.
Like, it's a constant.
I mean, it's not something Ithink about every day, but you
know, as a child, I was just me.
And I had my friends and this iswho I was. And I always felt
(14:00):
accepted. I could say I wasaccepted by those who accepted
me, because those who didn't, Iwasn't going to spend time with
them anyway. And I was like, Oh,you're not my people. I'm not
gonna hang out with you. Andthat feeling the need to be part
of a community and like, notstill trying to figure out where
(14:24):
you fit in. I know... I feellike I've always just made my
own right. People who are gonnalove me for who I am. And I'm
going to love those for who theyare. And you know, and that's
what matters, but like, it stilldoes matter to me though.
Because when I went off tocollege, you know, it was just
it was such a different... thewhole thing was a whole new
(14:46):
world, right? Like, I'm like,What in the world? Where am I?
Where are the brothers andsisters over here?
Oh my god, likeI really had a moment where I
was like this school might needto white for me.
And I never was going to join asorority, ever. But my friends,
(15:08):
you know, they were going to doit. And I was like, Okay, I
guess I'll just do it. And so Iremember going to an
informational meeting where theyhad representatives from the
different houses there. And Iasked if there was an AKA
because my mom is an AKA. And soI was like, I'm a legacy. And I
introduced myself. And I justremember being told them like,
(15:31):
Yeah, but it's not nationallyrecognized or whatever. They
basically talked to their ownsorority down to me, and I could
tell right away, they didn'twant me.
DB Crema (15:38):
How did it feel? You were being told you weren't
black enough. How did it feel?
Holly (15:41):
Yeah. I think at the time I just remember being kind of
like, oh, okay, then I just kindof walked away, because I don't
think I even really registeredwhat happened. And, of course,
as an adult now, when I lookback, I think about that, and
I'm like, they clearly were justlike, we don't want you in our
sorority. You're not blackenough. And I wish at that time,
(16:03):
maybe I had asked, you know,gone a little deeper to be like,
Well, what does that mean? Like,I don't understand what that
means. Why would I not wantto...you know, why does that
matter?
DB Crema (16:14):
Do you ever feel like you're passing or do you feel
guilty for passing? Or do youfeel guilty for not being black
enough?
Holly (16:21):
No. And it's not guilt. I think it's because I hate that
term. And I know, it's becauseit's such a negative
connotation. And I personally,never... it's not something I'm
ashamed of. It's something I'mproud of. And it's, I'd never
tell anybody that I'm white. IfI'm asked, I'm the first person
to say exactly what my racialmix is. And I speak up whenever
(16:49):
I hear anything that is notokay. Right. And do my great
reveal. Haha!You thought you could say that
racist shit in front of me, butlittle do you know?! You talking
to a sister!I think that's my favorite part,
(17:11):
though. You see people's faces.
When they're like, What? Oh, Ididn't mean it. I didn't mean
it.
You thought you could say thatshit in my company. But you
can't. You can't.
But okay, so I would change thewording on that. I don't feel
(17:33):
guilty for not looking moreblack. I think I feel hurt that
because I don't present enoughthat other people within a
community that I love and feel apart of, don't recognize me as
being part of that community.
And that's not my family. Andthat's not my friends. But it's
(17:59):
society, right? As a whole, thatyou see me walking down the
street, no one is gonna sitthere and be like, there's a
black girl. Right? Um, and thatgives me privilege, which makes
me angry, because I should notbe treated any better for how I
(18:24):
look than, say, my cousins. AndI shouldn't be treated any
worse, because that's part ofwho I am. Right. And so...
I hope the sound of my childrenin the background or not...
DB Crema (18:46):
Oh God, yes, but t
Holly (18:46):
I know, I'm sorry.
They're running through thehouse. I don't know what's
happening, right now.
Okay, um, I've never calledmyself black. It's not out of
anything other than because Ifeel like I shouldn't. Because I
know how the world sees me. AndI know that the privileges I
have of, you know, because ofhow I look that someone's not
(19:09):
going to look at me and identifyme as that. So I feel like I
can't identify myself that way.
Um, even though I know I am. Andso that's why I've always said
I'm biracial, which is true,too, right? Um, but that is a
very real thing. And because I'mso aware that the way I look
(19:31):
protects me from a certain kindof racism that I kind of feel
like, this is gonna sound weird,almost like I haven't earned it
to be able to use thatidentifier, right. I have not
(19:53):
and I will not ever experience,the gravity of the racism that,
you know, fellow family membersand friends have experienced and
humans have experienced, becauseof what I look like. Um, but I
think what's hard for me onthat, too. And this is where the
(20:16):
imposter syndrome comes in alittle bit is that doesn't mean
I haven't had my own experiencesof racism. They're just
different. And they're notviolent in the way of police
brutality, or micro aggressionsof being followed in stores or
anything like that. But I'vebeen harmed. And I know it is
(20:39):
because of race.
You know, this is interesting.
This was a story I wanted totell you. I've been thinking
about it a lot lately with thestate of things in our country.
This is a very vivid memory ofbeing about probably 6, 7, or 8
years old.
(21:02):
My parents were at a footballgame. And our babysitter was
over. And my brother, sister andI, we were all in the living
room. And I just remember, therewas this magazine that I saw. It
was like Newsweek or Time,something like that. But on the
cover of this magazine was ahooded Klansmen. Like all it
(21:27):
was, was like the hood with theeyes. That was the cover. And it
scared the crap out of me. And Ihad no idea what it was. I just
knew it scared me. And I askedour babysitter, what is that?
She said, Oh, that's the Ku KluxKlan. And I then learned who the
(21:54):
Ku Klux Klan were. That theyhated black people, and that
they, they kill black people.
And I was terrified. I remembergoing to the front of the window
of our house. I looked out toour street. And I remember just
going and looking down thestreet, wanting my parents to
get home, because I wasterrified that they were going
(22:16):
to come get us; the Klan. Ienvisioned... this was seriously
the story that was playing outin my head while I was looking
down the street wanting myparents to come home. Because I
was envisioning the Klanmarching down our street coming
towards us, like these peopleand their white hoods and their
things coming towards us. And Iwas so scared that they were
gonna come get us. And then inmy head, I thought, but maybe
(22:37):
there's some people that areblack, and they're in black
robes and hoods, and they'regonna come, you know, where the
Klan are. And they hate thewhite people. And they're going
to kill the Klan. And then I hadthe moment where I realized, but
then they would hate me too.
(23:00):
So it was this feeling of like,white people hate me, because
I'm black and the black peopleare gonna hate me because I
white.
And then I was like, we'rescrewed!
(23:25):
In a lot of ways, I still feelthat way, as a grown woman.
Like, besides my little worldand community that I've picked
and chosen, lucky enough to havethe family I have and then the
friends that I have. You know,that's definitely how I see the
(23:47):
world a lot is like, I'm gonnabe hated at some level because
I'm white, and I'm going to behated on some level because I'm
black.
So all I can do is do me,you know?
DB Crema (24:15):
Thanks for listening to United States of Race. The
podcast was produced by me DBCrema. Our artwork is designed
by Ali creative, and our show ishosted by buzzsprout which makes
it easy to start a podcast, getit listed with all the
directories and get your messageout to listeners everywhere. If
you love great storytelling, youcan follow United States of race
(24:37):
on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, orwherever you get your podcasts
and show us some love by ratingand writing a review on Apple
Podcasts or Podchaser. Also, youshould share this podcast with
your friends and anyone whobelieves in the power of
building connection throughsharing personal stories. Or you
can follow us on Instagram @unitedstatesofrace. If you have
(25:00):
a story to share, send us amessage at
unitedstatesofrace@gmail.com.
Until next time!
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