January 31, 2022 • 23 mins
Aware that racism existed, it wasn’t until he was in his teens that Ryan realized that it was happening all around him, whether he saw it or not. In this episode, he shares the uncomfortable moment in which he had to confront his own bias and discusses the privileges of being a white, middle-class man in America.
This conversation raises the question, will we ever get to a place in which people can acknowledge their own privilege without taking personal offense?
.
We’d love to hear from you – send us a 1-minute voice memo, using the app on your phone, with any reactions, questions, or stories you’d like to share, and email it to us at unitedstatesofrace@gmail.com.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ryan (00:10):
You know, it wasn't like I wasn't aware of racism, like it
wasn't like I didn't understandthat, you know, that was
happening. But I think there wasprobably, for me a sense of oh,
that doesn't happen here.
Because I didn't see it. Like,oh, I could be engaging in this
in ways that I don't evenrealize.
DB Crema (00:31):
This is United States of race, personal stories of how
our earliest memories determinea lifetime of relationships. I'm
your host, DB crema. On a recenttrip to Europe, I was reminded
how lucky just how fortunateI've been through the pandemic,
(00:52):
in that we have a house that'slarge enough for us, and plenty
of outdoor space to spend time.
And in cities, that just hasn'tbeen the case. I imagine how
disconnected people have felttrapped inside these small
spaces. And it made me think aswell about the intangible
distance that exists between us,each of us trapped inside the
(01:12):
space of our own mind, feelingseparated from everyone else.
Much like the medieval forts Ivisited in Spain, generations of
thoughts forming thick stonewalls around us. And our own
thoughts, they create thissometimes in punishable distance
or division between each of us.
(01:34):
And today's conversation has gotme thinking about one of the
most durable divider there iswhite privilege. The idea of
white privilege is so difficultfor some people to accept and
deal with. And I think it'sbecause it goes against some of
our American identity, pullyourself up by your bootstraps.
(01:55):
Or if you can make it here, youcan make it anywhere, you know,
this idea of being scrappy, andthat we've each achieved our
success because of our grit, andperseverance and ingenuity. So
for a person to accept thatthey've also benefited along the
way from outside forces, or, asRyan puts it, that some have
(02:17):
more safety net than others, andthat that affords a certain
privilege to be able to takerisks we otherwise wouldn't be
able to, well, that flies in theface of our self made American
man ethos. But it's BS, becauseboth of those things can exist
at the same time. And admittingand being aware, accepting that
(02:40):
there are privileges not of yourown making, that I've helped you
along the way. Well, thatdoesn't detract from the grit
and perseverance you might alsohave exhibited. In fact, it adds
to it. It shows humility andself awareness, which are really
attractive traits in some of thebest leaders. So acknowledging
(03:02):
one's privileges helps to startto address what's still not
working in this country,systemic injustice. And that's
the true spirit of what it is tobe American, helping our fellow
humans, thinking in terms of thewell being of the community,
creating a just society wherepolicies and practices make it
such that everyone is affordedthe same access to health,
(03:26):
education, financial capital,physical safety, the list is
endless. Because in the end,aren't we all better when
everyone is able to be theirbest?
(03:47):
When did you become aware ofrace?
Ryan (03:50):
Aware of race. I think the two things that really stuck
with me, and that was aboutrace, but really starting to
understand the issues of racismthat like racism was happening
was my first year of college atthe University of Washington. I
was technically a junior, but Iwas about 18, 19 at the time.
And being on the big campus, Iremember I was trying out a
(04:12):
bunch of different things. And Iended up in a lecture. And I
don't exactly remember all thedetails of the lecture. I
believe it had something to dowith race or something going on
at the time. This is like 1996.
But I remember a young blackwoman stood up, she gave us
short statement about you know,it's not about you as a white
person, it being your fault.
(04:35):
It's about you understanding theadvantages that you have that I
don't. And that statement, thatwoman framing that in that
point, like really started toshift the way I interacted with
the world and what racism mightactually be, huh, uh huh. So
that that memory really sticksout with me. I think it's just
(04:56):
kind of going like, oh, there'sprobably a lot of things here. I
don't know. I mean, I grew up Ina pretty, I would say, for the
most part largely white. Youknow, I did not I would say I
did not have much diversity ofpeople in my life growing up.
And that was like just areflection of where we lived.
Like, it just makes me think ofmy brother. He talked about how
(05:16):
when he was a little kid, heremembers his like, best friend
was this black kid. And he washanging over at his house one
day, I think he said he was six,he remembers he was about six
years old. And he asked the kidsMom, he was like, Oh, why is so
and so's hair curly? She flippedout on him. And so for a long
(05:36):
time, you know, he always wasjust really confused by that,
like, why did she yell at me andeverything else? And he said, it
was like at a later point in hislife, where he was like, Yeah,
you know, now I kind of get it.
She's live in a pretty widearea. And she probably hears
this a lot, and everything else,and it just hit the wrong
moment. And she flipped out onthem. I was just interested,
(05:57):
listen to my brother, as he'slike, you know, it always kind
of confused him. And then as hekind of became more educated
over time was like, Oh, now Ithink I see what's going on. So
I think about how that womanmade that statement. And I think
what that changed for me, it wasa realization that, oh, there is
racism potentially going onhere. And in my life that I
(06:17):
don't know about. It was athing, the way she put it where
it wasn't, she made it veryclear, it wasn't like to
necessarily blame you, or putonus on you, but it was just to
say, to wake you up to say, hey,you know, there is a difference
here. So I wouldn't say it wasan easy thing to hear. But it
was a Yeah, it was a positiveand it made sense. And later
(06:41):
that year, would have been early1997, I went on a trip to
Chicago. And, you know, I wouldnever say I would think of
myself as racist or anythingelse. And I remember I got on
the El train in Chicago. And Iwas listening to my headphones.
And I'm like, not payingattention. I'm trying to go
(07:04):
somewhere. And all of a sudden,I looked up, and I realized I
was the only white person onthis train that everybody else
was black. And I felt veryuncomfortable, and that I was
out there. And I was likeuncomfortable with the fact that
it was uncomfortable. Because Iwas like, why am I
uncomfortable? You know, andpartially realized that I was at
that point, also realized I washeading to southern Chicago,
(07:24):
which at the time, people hadwarned me to stay away from it.
And I inside I'd really didn'tknow anything about it. So I did
get off the train and go back.
But again, that moment, I thinkhas always stuck with me to sit
there and realize like, oh, wow,I do have this thing called
bias. I do have this thing.
Like, I did not feelcomfortable. And I had nothing
to do with anybody else. Therewas nothing anybody else was
(07:46):
doing. That was just me. Andwhatever my experiences were
that left with me. So for me,those are the earliest things
were things were started tolike, click for me to
understand, like, hey, there's,you know, there's more going on
here than I've ever realized.
DB Crema (08:01):
Right, right. I mean, it's interesting, the pointing
out the the experience on the Lon the way to Southside of
Chicago, you had to become raceaware, all of a sudden, because
you were the minority.
Ryan (08:14):
I could be engaging in this in ways that I don't even
realize. So I think it made mejust more aware and more open.
You know, and I think maybe overtime, that led to more
understanding about time to say,Oh, yes, I have privilege and
trying to understand what thatprivilege is, and how does that
affect other people? And howdoes that affect me?
DB Crema (08:34):
Right? Even the concept of race seemed to exist
on the periphery of your life.
Ryan (08:41):
Yeah, like, in talking with my girlfriend about some of
our experiences, my girlfriendis Asian, Filipino American,
talking about how we went toAsia recently, or the times we
go to Asia and why she's sointerested in Asia, because when
she's there, even if it's notthe Philippines, and even though
you know, she doesn't speakTagalog, like totally, like a
native, she doesn't feel likeshe's standing out. And you
(09:05):
know, and I keep reflecting backon that, because I think about
times that I've traveled andbeen in other places, and I'm
like, Oh, I get that. And it'sdifferent, when that's, you
know, if that's your experiencethe whole time, to not have that
identity to not have that or tohave only you know, for her
grown in SoCal to only havepockets of it, you know, when
she was with her Filipinocommunity or her family, or at
certain times. And so I thinkthat has also like, kind of have
(09:29):
you see having those moments ofthat and then reflecting like,
What could that be over alifetime?
DB Crema (09:34):
Mm hmm. Reaching back to that moment in your first
year on on the like, you know,big campus? Hearing that from
that woman in your class, do yourecall then how it changed your,
you know, your perspective, yourview of what was going on around
you?
Ryan (09:51):
Yeah, I mean, part of this is a long time ago. So I'm
trying to remember some of thisis maybe more reflection as
being older. But I mean, I thinkone way because, you know, it
wasn't like I wasn't aware ofracism. It wasn't like, you
know, that's not, you know, Ididn't understand that, you
know, that was happening. But Ithink there was probably, for me
a sense of oh, that doesn'thappen here, because I didn't
(10:13):
see it. You know? So I went,Yeah, it was an easy thing to
hear. But it was a Yeah, it wasa positive. And it made sense.
DB Crema (10:25):
Well, that it was positive says a lot, because I
think people have gotten to thepoint where the natural reaction
is to almost close one's ears tothat, because to accept that
statement, as fact, and as thereality it requires of one to to
reflect on their own privileges.
Right.
Ryan (10:47):
Yeah. And I think that it was a thing, the way she put it
where it wasn't, she made itvery clear, it wasn't like to
necessarily blame you, or putonus on you, but it was just to
say, to wake you up to say, hey,you know, there is a difference
here. And, and I think that'swhat it is, because sometimes
(11:08):
you hear people's responses tothese topics. And they're
defensive, because like yousaid, it's getting at something
there that they're notcomfortable facing, or they
don't want to assume, because Ithink a lot of people are doing,
potentially saying racistthings. And they don't even
realize it. And I includemyself, like, you know, over
time, I look back at things Imay have said in the past and go
oh, yeah, that may not have beennow I have a new context. I
(11:32):
think the one that's actuallystuck with me recently is this
whole frame about, I don't seecolor. And I think at a time in
my life, I would have said that.
And now, you know, I thinkespecially in this last year,
I've come to understand that.
No, not seeing somebody for thecolor of their skin is not to
recognize their background andtheir heritage and the
experience that they have. Andso I I get where people come
(11:55):
from. And I think that's, again,we need to talk more about like,
well, what does that mean, whenyou're saying that? And what
what are we trying to say? Like,you know, what you're trying to
say is you try to act to treateverybody equal? That is your
purpose, but you may not alwayssucceed. And if you don't think
you're doing it, then that's aproblem.
DB Crema (12:14):
Right, right. I know for a fact, I have said that. I
have I have learned a lot overthe years. And that's I guess
the whole point of, you know,actively working towards anti
racism is that it is no What dothey say? It's not the
destination. It's the journey.
It's the work, it's theexperience and learning each and
every day.
Ryan (12:36):
So yeah, I think sometimes the way that we view stuff is
based on an individual basis,well, so and so said that thing,
but I think they wereoverreacting, or this person
said, Oh, they were being racisttoward me. But I think it's due
to this, this and this. And Iunderstand that. I think there
are times like I've certainlyhad some people make claims to
(12:58):
me in the past that based onwhat I understood the situation,
I was like, I think there'sanother way to look at it. But
at the same token, I was like,I'm not gonna press it, you have
experiences here, that you know,and I wasn't in the room all
those times, like too often inAmerica, and this is everybody
is we use this may be gettingtoo nerdy here. But qualitative
(13:19):
stories are meant to backupquantitative data. Like that is
the point of those stories areindividual stories, or to backup
to the real experiences that aregoing on, like what's really
happening. And too often we takethat as Oh, that's our stasis.
And no, it should be an exampleof something. You know, like,
because you'll hear statementswhere people were like, well,
I've had this experience or thatthing, or the classic line, I
(13:39):
have a black friend, you know,and it's like, well, you could
have a black friend and youcould still be racist. Like, you
know, I think that's the otherthing I've come to realize all
these people can make theseclaims why they can't be blamed
to be racist. And I'm like, no,no, look at misogyny look at how
many dads probably love theirdaughters and still expected
them to be cute littlehousewives, like, just because
you have relationships doesn'tmean you aren't, you don't have
(14:02):
tendencies. So
DB Crema (14:04):
That doesn't mean that you weren't internalized and
taught into racism and have beenso socialized over the years,
like every single one of us thatI have had even other people of
color tell me that myexperiences aren't what they
are. And that's, you know, whatI try to get back to them is
(14:24):
like, it's just because we are aminority and we're, you know,
people of color and we'veexperienced we've all been on
the receiving end of racismdoesn't mean that we can't
perpetuate the very things thatwe've been socialized and taught
into over the years. I mean, Idon't know about you, but I feel
like as a child of the 80s and90s, I was very much taught to
(14:46):
not question the socialstructure within which we lived.
It was just it it was what itwas and the idea of considering
whether it was possible ornecessary to change A system
that wasn't designed to benefiteveryone equally, it never
crossed my mind to question itto, you know that something's
(15:09):
didn't sit right with me, but itnever crossed my mind to really
push the issue and try toquestion and say, Well, why is
it like that? And why can'twait, what what can we do to
change it? Why can't we changeit?
Ryan (15:21):
Yeah. Interesting. Do you think that's, I mean, was the
are you saying that bothculturally and in your family or
more culturally?
DB Crema (15:38):
um, you know, it's hard to tease apart, but I would
say probably some family cultureaspect of that, I'm sure, I'm
know that my mom would notappreciate me talking about my
family. But anyway, I'm surethere was some aspect of you
know, just family culture,especially as being you know,
for myself being firstgeneration American, my parents
(16:00):
were foreigners, they had verydifferent views. And they have
very different views for eachother being from different
countries. But also, I think,just, you know, full on at
socialization, as well as Ithink there was definitely an
aspect of that, that was a verygender gendered socialization,
right, as a woman growing up asa girl. So, you know, there's
that intersectionality betweenrace and gender. So, you know,
Ryan (16:24):
Yeah, I think that's interesting. I
hadn't thought about, you know,I think about a lot of the
cultural impact we have, youknow, I was sharing a story
because I remember, there's somefamous ABC or NBC News report, I
think it was from the middle ofthe 2000s. And, you know, as a
young black girl, she was like,six, and they were like, oh,
pick a doll. And she picked thewhite girl. And they were like,
(16:45):
why? Just like, the black girlis ugly. Like, she was six. And
she was already feeling like, Iwas just like, it's horrified.
And I think to myself, like, didI, as a white male have that? Or
did I always have a feeling ofoh, well, I can change things.
often think about that. That'skind of like, I'm wondering how
much you know, how does thatchange based on our identity
versus that?
DB Crema (17:08):
Hmm, yeah. Do you feel like you have
had experience disadvantagesbecause of your race?
Ryan (17:18):
Honestly, no. I mean, I can't have anything come to
mind. But I would also say partof that, I think that is my
viewpoint, where my life'spretty good. I have a lot of
options. Like, it's not, youknow, if on occasion, I'm
getting disadvantaged because ofmy skin, I'm like, I'm kind of
(17:39):
okay with that. Because thingsare good for me. Like, you know,
if I honestly sit thereobjectively, it's not like, I
don't have challenges, and Idon't have things like that. But
like, I know, for a fact that alot of doors and a lot of things
just open up for me, not likehuge, but at least like you
know, they tend to bias more inmy, in my favor in a lot of
ways. I mean, I think the onlything I've ever felt any
(18:03):
disadvantage or judgment hasbeen more about being male than
then specifically then I thinkbeing a white male. But no, I
wouldn't. Yeah, I mean, that'sthe thing right here, a lot of
people complain. And again, theypick the one thing I didn't get
into this school, I didn't dothis. I didn't do that. And I'm
like, Yeah, but you're probablygetting a 10th of the rejections
(18:27):
that other people are, like, I'mlike, it's just, you know, I
think the only caveat I wouldget there, I think there is
another difference is, you know,I'm educated in middle class
very clearly in the middleclass. And, you know, I do think
about what it is to be white andpoor. Because I think that's an
area that that has somesimilarities, like, how do we
(18:48):
treat the people who are poor,who are obviously poor. And I
think that that also happens,and that I feel, again, probably
happens across the racial lines,you know, more so to others. But
to sit there and say that wedon't discriminate against white
poor, we don't judge againstwhite poor, I think is also
like, you know, sometimes thatwe miss in these conversations,
when we talk about privilege andeverything else, like, part of
(19:12):
my privilege is my parents wereeducated, they have college
educations. I have a familythat's multiple generations of
family that's been financiallystable. Like I have all these
advantages that I think peopledon't always recognize that all
the safety nets, I have the merefact I know that if I lose all
my money, I've got family andfriends that I can rely on and
(19:35):
there's no questions and I'm notI'm not going to be out on the
loan, like, you know, the safetynet, right. It's just the big
thing.
DB Crema (19:42):
Yeah. Are we privileging the topic of race
and race based discriminationover other types of
discrimination over other typesof ways in which our system, you
know, is based?
Ryan (19:56):
Yeah, you know, and I think I even saw something today
where somebody was saying Do youget the feeling your white
friends are more concerned aboutthe plight of the blacks than
they are your Asian and Latinoand other friends of color? I
think there were saying some,like they're more likely to jump
on that. And my view in it, andI look if people bring that up
is I'm like, I don't thinkthat's a debate to have to say
(20:20):
over over prioritizing. I thinkit's openness discussion to say,
hey, there's other aspectsrelated to this, that we should
also be talking about. And sure.
But at the same token, like ifwe think about our modern world,
like, there, I mean, if wewanted to sit here and let's all
the things I think a raga theworld, we could be here for a
while. And you everybody's onlygot so much energy, and the
(20:41):
culture is only got so muchenergy and the shifts in the
rides, and it goes where it is.
And there's clearly a problem.
And it has surfaced now, do arewe gonna fix it? Totally. No,
it's, as you said, a journey. Somaybe it's more about one race
than the other right now. Butguess what, we will probably
shift and talk about others. Andit doesn't mean there's not a
space for people to talk aboutpeople of other identities. I
(21:01):
mean, if we want to talk aboutit, the issue of rights for
women has been going on for wellover 100 plus years, like you
know, it didn't like you havethe right to vote and and like
we're still talking aboutbecause it's still in balanced
and they're still in that'sstill an issue that we need to
talk about. So
DB Crema (21:20):
yeah, yeah. What...
What do you think America wouldbe like, if we no longer taught
children about race?
Ryan (21:33):
I've got I mean, I guess I've got a thought.
DB Crema (21:37):
Okay.
Ryan (21:38):
What I kind of realized later on in life is that my
grandmother, my father's side,she was bigoted. She was racist.
She was against, she's racistaginst...um.. She was bigoted
against Jews. She was definitelyracist against blacks. And my
father rebelled against that.
But one of the things that Ithink about is when I grew up,
not none of that he never spreadany of that to me. Right. So
(22:01):
like, to me coming out of that,like, where did this come from?
And so when you talk aboutAmerica, where we teach race,
I'm like, you know, if we canmake an effort to focus on what
are those things that arepeppered perpetuating that
changing those things in ourmedia, and our politics in the
way that we talk about and inthe way parents talk about it in
a way where you're notperpetuating those things, even
(22:24):
even the minor things, maybe inthat way you could reduce over
time, I think the mere fact thatthese things are coming up, and
it's painful in a lot of ways,and it's not always great. And
they're not comfortable topics,like I mean, I get that I get
that it's not always comfortableto bring them up. But I, to me,
it gives me hope. And so ifthose issues become less and
(22:47):
less serious issues, that meanswe're moving in the right
direction.
DB Crema (23:00):
Thanks for listening to United States of race. This
podcast was produced by me, DBcrema. We'd love to hear from
you. Send us a one minute VoiceMemo with any reactions,
questions or stories you'd liketo share. You can use the app on
your phone to record the voicememo and email it to United
(23:24):
Statesofrace@gmail.com. Itmight even be included in an
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won't miss a single moment.
Until next time
You know, it wasn't like I wasn't aware of racism, like it
wasn't like I didn't understandthat, you know, that was
happening. But I think there wasprobably, for me a sense of oh,
that doesn't happen here.
Because I didn't see it. Like,oh, I could be engaging in this
in ways that I don't evenrealize.
DB Crema (00:31):
This is United States of race, personal stories of how
our earliest memories determinea lifetime of relationships. I'm
your host, DB crema. On a recenttrip to Europe, I was reminded
how lucky just how fortunateI've been through the pandemic,
(00:52):
in that we have a house that'slarge enough for us, and plenty
of outdoor space to spend time.
And in cities, that just hasn'tbeen the case. I imagine how
disconnected people have felttrapped inside these small
spaces. And it made me think aswell about the intangible
distance that exists between us,each of us trapped inside the
(01:12):
space of our own mind, feelingseparated from everyone else.
Much like the medieval forts Ivisited in Spain, generations of
thoughts forming thick stonewalls around us. And our own
thoughts, they create thissometimes in punishable distance
or division between each of us.
(01:34):
And today's conversation has gotme thinking about one of the
most durable divider there iswhite privilege. The idea of
white privilege is so difficultfor some people to accept and
deal with. And I think it'sbecause it goes against some of
our American identity, pullyourself up by your bootstraps.
(01:55):
Or if you can make it here, youcan make it anywhere, you know,
this idea of being scrappy, andthat we've each achieved our
success because of our grit, andperseverance and ingenuity. So
for a person to accept thatthey've also benefited along the
way from outside forces, or, asRyan puts it, that some have
(02:17):
more safety net than others, andthat that affords a certain
privilege to be able to takerisks we otherwise wouldn't be
able to, well, that flies in theface of our self made American
man ethos. But it's BS, becauseboth of those things can exist
at the same time. And admittingand being aware, accepting that
(02:40):
there are privileges not of yourown making, that I've helped you
along the way. Well, thatdoesn't detract from the grit
and perseverance you might alsohave exhibited. In fact, it adds
to it. It shows humility andself awareness, which are really
attractive traits in some of thebest leaders. So acknowledging
(03:02):
one's privileges helps to startto address what's still not
working in this country,systemic injustice. And that's
the true spirit of what it is tobe American, helping our fellow
humans, thinking in terms of thewell being of the community,
creating a just society wherepolicies and practices make it
such that everyone is affordedthe same access to health,
(03:26):
education, financial capital,physical safety, the list is
endless. Because in the end,aren't we all better when
everyone is able to be theirbest?
(03:47):
When did you become aware ofrace?
Ryan (03:50):
Aware of race. I think the two things that really stuck
with me, and that was aboutrace, but really starting to
understand the issues of racismthat like racism was happening
was my first year of college atthe University of Washington. I
was technically a junior, but Iwas about 18, 19 at the time.
And being on the big campus, Iremember I was trying out a
(04:12):
bunch of different things. And Iended up in a lecture. And I
don't exactly remember all thedetails of the lecture. I
believe it had something to dowith race or something going on
at the time. This is like 1996.
But I remember a young blackwoman stood up, she gave us
short statement about you know,it's not about you as a white
person, it being your fault.
(04:35):
It's about you understanding theadvantages that you have that I
don't. And that statement, thatwoman framing that in that
point, like really started toshift the way I interacted with
the world and what racism mightactually be, huh, uh huh. So
that that memory really sticksout with me. I think it's just
(04:56):
kind of going like, oh, there'sprobably a lot of things here. I
don't know. I mean, I grew up Ina pretty, I would say, for the
most part largely white. Youknow, I did not I would say I
did not have much diversity ofpeople in my life growing up.
And that was like just areflection of where we lived.
Like, it just makes me think ofmy brother. He talked about how
(05:16):
when he was a little kid, heremembers his like, best friend
was this black kid. And he washanging over at his house one
day, I think he said he was six,he remembers he was about six
years old. And he asked the kidsMom, he was like, Oh, why is so
and so's hair curly? She flippedout on him. And so for a long
(05:36):
time, you know, he always wasjust really confused by that,
like, why did she yell at me andeverything else? And he said, it
was like at a later point in hislife, where he was like, Yeah,
you know, now I kind of get it.
She's live in a pretty widearea. And she probably hears
this a lot, and everything else,and it just hit the wrong
moment. And she flipped out onthem. I was just interested,
(05:57):
listen to my brother, as he'slike, you know, it always kind
of confused him. And then as hekind of became more educated
over time was like, Oh, now Ithink I see what's going on. So
I think about how that womanmade that statement. And I think
what that changed for me, it wasa realization that, oh, there is
racism potentially going onhere. And in my life that I
(06:17):
don't know about. It was athing, the way she put it where
it wasn't, she made it veryclear, it wasn't like to
necessarily blame you, or putonus on you, but it was just to
say, to wake you up to say, hey,you know, there is a difference
here. So I wouldn't say it wasan easy thing to hear. But it
was a Yeah, it was a positiveand it made sense. And later
(06:41):
that year, would have been early1997, I went on a trip to
Chicago. And, you know, I wouldnever say I would think of
myself as racist or anythingelse. And I remember I got on
the El train in Chicago. And Iwas listening to my headphones.
And I'm like, not payingattention. I'm trying to go
(07:04):
somewhere. And all of a sudden,I looked up, and I realized I
was the only white person onthis train that everybody else
was black. And I felt veryuncomfortable, and that I was
out there. And I was likeuncomfortable with the fact that
it was uncomfortable. Because Iwas like, why am I
uncomfortable? You know, andpartially realized that I was at
that point, also realized I washeading to southern Chicago,
(07:24):
which at the time, people hadwarned me to stay away from it.
And I inside I'd really didn'tknow anything about it. So I did
get off the train and go back.
But again, that moment, I thinkhas always stuck with me to sit
there and realize like, oh, wow,I do have this thing called
bias. I do have this thing.
Like, I did not feelcomfortable. And I had nothing
to do with anybody else. Therewas nothing anybody else was
(07:46):
doing. That was just me. Andwhatever my experiences were
that left with me. So for me,those are the earliest things
were things were started tolike, click for me to
understand, like, hey, there's,you know, there's more going on
here than I've ever realized.
DB Crema (08:01):
Right, right. I mean, it's interesting, the pointing
out the the experience on the Lon the way to Southside of
Chicago, you had to become raceaware, all of a sudden, because
you were the minority.
Ryan (08:14):
I could be engaging in this in ways that I don't even
realize. So I think it made mejust more aware and more open.
You know, and I think maybe overtime, that led to more
understanding about time to say,Oh, yes, I have privilege and
trying to understand what thatprivilege is, and how does that
affect other people? And howdoes that affect me?
DB Crema (08:34):
Right? Even the concept of race seemed to exist
on the periphery of your life.
Ryan (08:41):
Yeah, like, in talking with my girlfriend about some of
our experiences, my girlfriendis Asian, Filipino American,
talking about how we went toAsia recently, or the times we
go to Asia and why she's sointerested in Asia, because when
she's there, even if it's notthe Philippines, and even though
you know, she doesn't speakTagalog, like totally, like a
native, she doesn't feel likeshe's standing out. And you
(09:05):
know, and I keep reflecting backon that, because I think about
times that I've traveled andbeen in other places, and I'm
like, Oh, I get that. And it'sdifferent, when that's, you
know, if that's your experiencethe whole time, to not have that
identity to not have that or tohave only you know, for her
grown in SoCal to only havepockets of it, you know, when
she was with her Filipinocommunity or her family, or at
certain times. And so I thinkthat has also like, kind of have
(09:29):
you see having those moments ofthat and then reflecting like,
What could that be over alifetime?
DB Crema (09:34):
Mm hmm. Reaching back to that moment in your first
year on on the like, you know,big campus? Hearing that from
that woman in your class, do yourecall then how it changed your,
you know, your perspective, yourview of what was going on around
you?
Ryan (09:51):
Yeah, I mean, part of this is a long time ago. So I'm
trying to remember some of thisis maybe more reflection as
being older. But I mean, I thinkone way because, you know, it
wasn't like I wasn't aware ofracism. It wasn't like, you
know, that's not, you know, Ididn't understand that, you
know, that was happening. But Ithink there was probably, for me
a sense of oh, that doesn'thappen here, because I didn't
(10:13):
see it. You know? So I went,Yeah, it was an easy thing to
hear. But it was a Yeah, it wasa positive. And it made sense.
DB Crema (10:25):
Well, that it was positive says a lot, because I
think people have gotten to thepoint where the natural reaction
is to almost close one's ears tothat, because to accept that
statement, as fact, and as thereality it requires of one to to
reflect on their own privileges.
Right.
Ryan (10:47):
Yeah. And I think that it was a thing, the way she put it
where it wasn't, she made itvery clear, it wasn't like to
necessarily blame you, or putonus on you, but it was just to
say, to wake you up to say, hey,you know, there is a difference
here. And, and I think that'swhat it is, because sometimes
(11:08):
you hear people's responses tothese topics. And they're
defensive, because like yousaid, it's getting at something
there that they're notcomfortable facing, or they
don't want to assume, because Ithink a lot of people are doing,
potentially saying racistthings. And they don't even
realize it. And I includemyself, like, you know, over
time, I look back at things Imay have said in the past and go
oh, yeah, that may not have beennow I have a new context. I
(11:32):
think the one that's actuallystuck with me recently is this
whole frame about, I don't seecolor. And I think at a time in
my life, I would have said that.
And now, you know, I thinkespecially in this last year,
I've come to understand that.
No, not seeing somebody for thecolor of their skin is not to
recognize their background andtheir heritage and the
experience that they have. Andso I I get where people come
(11:55):
from. And I think that's, again,we need to talk more about like,
well, what does that mean, whenyou're saying that? And what
what are we trying to say? Like,you know, what you're trying to
say is you try to act to treateverybody equal? That is your
purpose, but you may not alwayssucceed. And if you don't think
you're doing it, then that's aproblem.
DB Crema (12:14):
Right, right. I know for a fact, I have said that. I
have I have learned a lot overthe years. And that's I guess
the whole point of, you know,actively working towards anti
racism is that it is no What dothey say? It's not the
destination. It's the journey.
It's the work, it's theexperience and learning each and
every day.
Ryan (12:36):
So yeah, I think sometimes the way that we view stuff is
based on an individual basis,well, so and so said that thing,
but I think they wereoverreacting, or this person
said, Oh, they were being racisttoward me. But I think it's due
to this, this and this. And Iunderstand that. I think there
are times like I've certainlyhad some people make claims to
(12:58):
me in the past that based onwhat I understood the situation,
I was like, I think there'sanother way to look at it. But
at the same token, I was like,I'm not gonna press it, you have
experiences here, that you know,and I wasn't in the room all
those times, like too often inAmerica, and this is everybody
is we use this may be gettingtoo nerdy here. But qualitative
(13:19):
stories are meant to backupquantitative data. Like that is
the point of those stories areindividual stories, or to backup
to the real experiences that aregoing on, like what's really
happening. And too often we takethat as Oh, that's our stasis.
And no, it should be an exampleof something. You know, like,
because you'll hear statementswhere people were like, well,
I've had this experience or thatthing, or the classic line, I
(13:39):
have a black friend, you know,and it's like, well, you could
have a black friend and youcould still be racist. Like, you
know, I think that's the otherthing I've come to realize all
these people can make theseclaims why they can't be blamed
to be racist. And I'm like, no,no, look at misogyny look at how
many dads probably love theirdaughters and still expected
them to be cute littlehousewives, like, just because
you have relationships doesn'tmean you aren't, you don't have
(14:02):
tendencies. So
DB Crema (14:04):
That doesn't mean that you weren't internalized and
taught into racism and have beenso socialized over the years,
like every single one of us thatI have had even other people of
color tell me that myexperiences aren't what they
are. And that's, you know, whatI try to get back to them is
(14:24):
like, it's just because we are aminority and we're, you know,
people of color and we'veexperienced we've all been on
the receiving end of racismdoesn't mean that we can't
perpetuate the very things thatwe've been socialized and taught
into over the years. I mean, Idon't know about you, but I feel
like as a child of the 80s and90s, I was very much taught to
(14:46):
not question the socialstructure within which we lived.
It was just it it was what itwas and the idea of considering
whether it was possible ornecessary to change A system
that wasn't designed to benefiteveryone equally, it never
crossed my mind to question itto, you know that something's
(15:09):
didn't sit right with me, but itnever crossed my mind to really
push the issue and try toquestion and say, Well, why is
it like that? And why can'twait, what what can we do to
change it? Why can't we changeit?
Ryan (15:21):
Yeah. Interesting. Do you think that's, I mean, was the
are you saying that bothculturally and in your family or
more culturally?
DB Crema (15:38):
um, you know, it's hard to tease apart, but I would
say probably some family cultureaspect of that, I'm sure, I'm
know that my mom would notappreciate me talking about my
family. But anyway, I'm surethere was some aspect of you
know, just family culture,especially as being you know,
for myself being firstgeneration American, my parents
(16:00):
were foreigners, they had verydifferent views. And they have
very different views for eachother being from different
countries. But also, I think,just, you know, full on at
socialization, as well as Ithink there was definitely an
aspect of that, that was a verygender gendered socialization,
right, as a woman growing up asa girl. So, you know, there's
that intersectionality betweenrace and gender. So, you know,
Ryan (16:24):
Yeah, I think that's interesting. I
hadn't thought about, you know,I think about a lot of the
cultural impact we have, youknow, I was sharing a story
because I remember, there's somefamous ABC or NBC News report, I
think it was from the middle ofthe 2000s. And, you know, as a
young black girl, she was like,six, and they were like, oh,
pick a doll. And she picked thewhite girl. And they were like,
(16:45):
why? Just like, the black girlis ugly. Like, she was six. And
she was already feeling like, Iwas just like, it's horrified.
And I think to myself, like, didI, as a white male have that? Or
did I always have a feeling ofoh, well, I can change things.
often think about that. That'skind of like, I'm wondering how
much you know, how does thatchange based on our identity
versus that?
DB Crema (17:08):
Hmm, yeah. Do you feel like you have
had experience disadvantagesbecause of your race?
Ryan (17:18):
Honestly, no. I mean, I can't have anything come to
mind. But I would also say partof that, I think that is my
viewpoint, where my life'spretty good. I have a lot of
options. Like, it's not, youknow, if on occasion, I'm
getting disadvantaged because ofmy skin, I'm like, I'm kind of
(17:39):
okay with that. Because thingsare good for me. Like, you know,
if I honestly sit thereobjectively, it's not like, I
don't have challenges, and Idon't have things like that. But
like, I know, for a fact that alot of doors and a lot of things
just open up for me, not likehuge, but at least like you
know, they tend to bias more inmy, in my favor in a lot of
ways. I mean, I think the onlything I've ever felt any
(18:03):
disadvantage or judgment hasbeen more about being male than
then specifically then I thinkbeing a white male. But no, I
wouldn't. Yeah, I mean, that'sthe thing right here, a lot of
people complain. And again, theypick the one thing I didn't get
into this school, I didn't dothis. I didn't do that. And I'm
like, Yeah, but you're probablygetting a 10th of the rejections
(18:27):
that other people are, like, I'mlike, it's just, you know, I
think the only caveat I wouldget there, I think there is
another difference is, you know,I'm educated in middle class
very clearly in the middleclass. And, you know, I do think
about what it is to be white andpoor. Because I think that's an
area that that has somesimilarities, like, how do we
(18:48):
treat the people who are poor,who are obviously poor. And I
think that that also happens,and that I feel, again, probably
happens across the racial lines,you know, more so to others. But
to sit there and say that wedon't discriminate against white
poor, we don't judge againstwhite poor, I think is also
like, you know, sometimes thatwe miss in these conversations,
when we talk about privilege andeverything else, like, part of
(19:12):
my privilege is my parents wereeducated, they have college
educations. I have a familythat's multiple generations of
family that's been financiallystable. Like I have all these
advantages that I think peopledon't always recognize that all
the safety nets, I have the merefact I know that if I lose all
my money, I've got family andfriends that I can rely on and
(19:35):
there's no questions and I'm notI'm not going to be out on the
loan, like, you know, the safetynet, right. It's just the big
thing.
DB Crema (19:42):
Yeah. Are we privileging the topic of race
and race based discriminationover other types of
discrimination over other typesof ways in which our system, you
know, is based?
Ryan (19:56):
Yeah, you know, and I think I even saw something today
where somebody was saying Do youget the feeling your white
friends are more concerned aboutthe plight of the blacks than
they are your Asian and Latinoand other friends of color? I
think there were saying some,like they're more likely to jump
on that. And my view in it, andI look if people bring that up
is I'm like, I don't thinkthat's a debate to have to say
(20:20):
over over prioritizing. I thinkit's openness discussion to say,
hey, there's other aspectsrelated to this, that we should
also be talking about. And sure.
But at the same token, like ifwe think about our modern world,
like, there, I mean, if wewanted to sit here and let's all
the things I think a raga theworld, we could be here for a
while. And you everybody's onlygot so much energy, and the
(20:41):
culture is only got so muchenergy and the shifts in the
rides, and it goes where it is.
And there's clearly a problem.
And it has surfaced now, do arewe gonna fix it? Totally. No,
it's, as you said, a journey. Somaybe it's more about one race
than the other right now. Butguess what, we will probably
shift and talk about others. Andit doesn't mean there's not a
space for people to talk aboutpeople of other identities. I
(21:01):
mean, if we want to talk aboutit, the issue of rights for
women has been going on for wellover 100 plus years, like you
know, it didn't like you havethe right to vote and and like
we're still talking aboutbecause it's still in balanced
and they're still in that'sstill an issue that we need to
talk about. So
DB Crema (21:20):
yeah, yeah. What...
What do you think America wouldbe like, if we no longer taught
children about race?
Ryan (21:33):
I've got I mean, I guess I've got a thought.
DB Crema (21:37):
Okay.
Ryan (21:38):
What I kind of realized later on in life is that my
grandmother, my father's side,she was bigoted. She was racist.
She was against, she's racistaginst...um.. She was bigoted
against Jews. She was definitelyracist against blacks. And my
father rebelled against that.
But one of the things that Ithink about is when I grew up,
not none of that he never spreadany of that to me. Right. So
(22:01):
like, to me coming out of that,like, where did this come from?
And so when you talk aboutAmerica, where we teach race,
I'm like, you know, if we canmake an effort to focus on what
are those things that arepeppered perpetuating that
changing those things in ourmedia, and our politics in the
way that we talk about and inthe way parents talk about it in
a way where you're notperpetuating those things, even
(22:24):
even the minor things, maybe inthat way you could reduce over
time, I think the mere fact thatthese things are coming up, and
it's painful in a lot of ways,and it's not always great. And
they're not comfortable topics,like I mean, I get that I get
that it's not always comfortableto bring them up. But I, to me,
it gives me hope. And so ifthose issues become less and
(22:47):
less serious issues, that meanswe're moving in the right
direction.
DB Crema (23:00):
Thanks for listening to United States of race. This
podcast was produced by me, DBcrema. We'd love to hear from
you. Send us a one minute VoiceMemo with any reactions,
questions or stories you'd liketo share. You can use the app on
your phone to record the voicememo and email it to United
(23:24):
Statesofrace@gmail.com. Itmight even be included in an
upcoming episode. And be sure tohit follow or subscribe on
whichever podcast platformyou're listening. That way you
won't miss a single moment.
Until next time
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