Episode 4: Does Reverse Racism Exist?

Chris grew up among a predominantly Hispanic population and came to love the culture, food, and familial ties he was invited into. It cemented his lifelong passion as a chef. 
But while he realized that it’s the celebration of cultural traditions that binds us all together, he saw that many others felt slighted, and chose to focus on hot button, political issues not in their favor, like immigration and border walls. The issues that tear us apart. 

Episode Transcript

Chris (00:10):
So I would hear things from from family members. Like,
I'm the least racist personyou've ever met, or you'll ever
meet. And that in itself isjust, it's such a problematic
statement, like on so manydifferent levels. pretty
ridiculous.

DB Crema (00:31):
This is United States of race, personal stories of how
our earliest memories determinea lifetime of relationships. I'm
your host, DB crema. In thisweek's episode, we talked with
Chris, who grew up predominantlyamong an Hispanic population,

(00:52):
and came to love the food, theculture, and the strong familial
ties that he got invited into.
And it cemented his lifelongpassion as a chef. But while he
focused on the things that bringus together, like celebration of
cultural traditions, he saw thatmany others still focus on hot
button political issues likeimmigration and border walls.

(01:16):
Those are issues that fixate noton the humanity that binds us,
but rather on the things thattear us apart. And as Chris
talks about, some truly believethat the act of championing
equality for all is just a wayof people trying to keep the
white man down. But you knowwhat that is, that's what's been

(01:37):
coined the scarcity mentality,the fear that there's a limited
amount of resources, and thatfor some to gain or to finally
get more, others have toexperience a loss, actually love
how Isabel Wilkerson sobeautifully writes about this
idea in her book caste. Shesays, in a caste system, such as

(02:00):
race that is upheld by aperception of scarcity, when a
lower caste person goes uparound, an upper caste person
must come down. It's this ideathat the elevation of others
amounts to a demotion of oneselfversus fighting for equality
feels like a demotion. And it'sthat reason why people are so

(02:24):
reticent to change, or to changetheir viewpoint about privilege
and equality. And I don't thinkthat's something that can easily
be addressed head on, you know,you benefit from racism, or
you're perpetuating racistideas, and you must change. Now,
rather much like managing andresolving any type of conflict,
it comes down to understandingpositions and interests, you

(02:48):
requires taking the time tounderstand people's perspectives
and their preoccupations. Italso requires people to push
themselves to focus more on whatwe hold in common than what
divides us. And that is where wecan affect change.

(03:17):
When did you become aware ofrace?

Chris (03:19):
I guess, the first time I can remember race being
something of consequence. Nosurprise has to do with food.
Anyone that knows me will knowthat. memories for me are highly
connected to food and cultureand identity. Before I guess I

(03:40):
get into that, a bit of context.
I grew up in San Antonio, Texas.
So we could be close to family,specifically my paternal
grandparents, and their home wason the west side of the city.
The west side of San Antonio hadand still does, very strong

(04:01):
Latin presence, Hispanic,traditionally Roman Catholic,
multi generational familiesunder under one roof. So outside
of like the economicdemographic, you know, where we
fell tax bracket was outside ofhaving that in common there were

(04:25):
plenty of differences between myfamily and and the neighbors.
But I wasn't really aware of anyof that before the age of six.
Around this time, my mom waspregnant, and I ended up
spending more time with mygrandmother at her home. And I

(04:47):
would play outside and socializewith the neighbors. I can
remember like chasing afterloose balls. I can remember
learning to play hopscotch androller skate in the driveways
And then eventually, I wasinvited in for meal times. And I
think it was around. Certainlyaround a holiday of some sort, I

(05:11):
think it was Easter, I walkedinto a scene of something I'd
never experienced before I wasinvited in into this home, I
walked into their lovelykitchen, and the entire family
was gathered around thiscommunal long table. And they
were all taking part in thishonored tradition of making

(05:34):
tamales. You know, you see youngchildren sitting on the laps of
the next generation, theirparents will both generations
watched the matriarch of thefamily working, she's spreading
the the exact right amount ofmasa prepared corn mash, onto

(05:54):
the soaked corn husks, and thenfilling it with vibrant
fillings, chicken and pork andchilies, and then precisely
wrapping them into like neatlittle packages for steaming
later on. And the first dozen orso were just like a
demonstration for anyone who hadnever seen this before the young

(06:18):
and myself included. And then wewould be invited, the newbies
would be invited to roll up oursleeves, try our luck and kind
of earn a spot at the table. AndI did and you know, not a very
good job. Of course, it's myfirst time doing anything like
that. It was was a crazyexperience for me. And I think

(06:40):
it was mostly just like thenovelty of it all.

DB Crema (06:44):
So what was so new about it? Was it the tamales
specifically that you were beingintroduced this kind of new food
that you didn't know? Or was ita scene with family that you
were accustomed to,

Chris (07:00):
before this experience and helping form the tamales, I
didn't really know anything ofthe traditions or the family
structures within the Hispaniccommunity, I've never seen any
representation of that. And theytook such pride in who they were
their cultural identities, theirtraditions. And I didn't

(07:22):
understand any of that. I thinkpartially because I didn't have
a lot of that myself growing up.
So this moment, in particular, Ithink stuck with me, just
because of this idea of culturereally evident in this process
that was happening in front ofme. And I realized that my own
culture, we didn't have anythinglike that. And then not only did

(07:49):
I get my first taste of likefamily style, family secret
tamale recipe, but I also got ayou know, peek inside another
culture and their beautifultradition and be a part of that,
that was super special. So likenaturally, after that, I would

(08:09):
insist that our family shouldstart making tamales on holidays
and special occasions. And Iwould I would be met with a lot
of a lot of comments like, youknow, it's actually not that
easy. It's a lot of effort. And,well, I don't have a recipe for

(08:30):
that. And this would be mucheasier if we just bought them
from the lady at work, who sellsthem in the parking lot. Things
like that. What I didn'tunderstand was that, you know,
there was no real link to theact of making tamales for the
rest of my family. There's likeno real cultural significance,

(08:51):
no ties to that act. And at thatage, as far as race goes, I only
saw the physical and tangibledifferences between my
grandmother's neighbors and, andmy family. And that was you
know, the tone of our, the toneof our skins were were different

(09:13):
color. You know, that's prettymuch it. That was the extent of
my understanding. And I didn'treally grasp the larger concepts
at play, like cultural identityor racial tension or division.
And then also, at that time, saythe overwhelming sentiment, I'll

(09:34):
be it. Maybe a quiet or one ofthe people around me was that
Hispanic culture was was lessthan and I guess, up into a
certain point, for me it wasfairly unrecognizable as racism,
which is kind of the way of theworld is just the way people

(09:54):
looked at other people, becausethey were different, I guess a
fairly decent example of thiswould be, again, kind of
revolves around food. There area ton a ton of Mexican food
restaurants in, in San Antonio,they're very, very common in the
area that I grew up in. There'slike literally one on every

(10:16):
other corner. And a commonphrase for something that
ubiquitous that my dad would useis a diamond doesn't. So like,
you know, there's a dozen ofthem. They're all worth, you
know, 10 cents. And that turn ofphrase, I think it very much

(10:36):
summarizes the expectations ofmost white people in the area
for their beloved taco shops.
The expectation is that they'reconsistent and cheap. You know,
you'd hear comments, like, it'salso simple, why are we why are
we paying this much for it? And,you know, just hearing these

(11:01):
comments off hand, it might notseem very harmful. But I don't
know. Over time, I guess, builtup over a lifetime. I think, as
a child, you hear them over andover again. And I think that
they, they show this level ofdisrespect and subtle

(11:26):
degradation. And like dilutionof this beautiful culture, this
this culture that I that I wishshown that I was, you know,
privy to, at a young age? And

DB Crema (11:40):
how did that make you feel? Like, what did you think
about that?

Chris (11:44):
So, before I was able to make fully informed decisions on
the ways of the world, and how Istacked up to the people around
me, I was essentially being fedthese subtle lines of, you're
better than, or rather, thisother type of person is less

(12:08):
than because of XY and Z. Andit's harmful. It's it is it's,
it may not be intended to harm.
Just as those little comments,they just add up to something
greater. A greater threat, Iguess.

DB Crema (12:31):
Do you feel like you absorbed or do you feel like you
absorbs that kind of societalnorm of, of distinctions and run
race and culture? So I

Chris (12:43):
think that, you know, over time, you you do start to
absorb these, these ideas asYeah, you accept them as, as
norms as the way society works?
Mm hmm. That Oh, yeah, I'm, I'mclearly higher on a on a social
scale, then then this culture,because, because it's what I've

(13:08):
been been hearing, you know, sosubtly, over so many years. I
don't know, I can remember timeswhen discussions around
employment, or unemployment,unemployment, they were spurred
on by by both of my parents,going back to going back to

(13:28):
school, and then finishing uptheir respective programs and
their degrees, and then reentering the workforce. And I
can just remember conversations,like idle chatter amongst, you
know, friends, acquaintances,and like family members and
stuff. They just bring up thethe topic of illegal immigrants,

(13:48):
and how illegal immigrants werecoming across the border. And
were, you know, quote, unquote,taking good paying jobs from
honest everyday Texans. Youknow, I just remember it was a
raging topic at the time, whichis fairly ironic, considering my

(14:09):
own background, being the childof an immigrant myself. And if
it was happening at all, it washappening in difficult labor
intensive jobs in you know, inlandscaping, and hospitality and
construction and maintenance,and housekeeping and childcare

(14:33):
and agriculture, like you nameit, you know,

DB Crema (14:40):
job, other people didn't want to do right, right,

Chris (14:43):
exactly. So like, oftentimes, these jobs were
looked down upon. White peopledon't want to do them, and it
creates this this vacuum ofemployment, it it has to be
filled. It does get filled byanyone who's looking for
employment, just so happens tobe that those people are, were,

(15:06):
at the time Hispanic, and beinglooked at being looked down upon
as second class citizens becauseof it. It's like doubles down on
the idea that Hispanic cultureis, is less than is very hard
to, like, come to terms with.
But what do

DB Crema (15:27):
you think about the idea of reverse racism does it?
You know, you're talking aboutyour parents in their, in their
scholastic endeavors and like,you know, to your point, they're
kind of whether they're usingthe actual term or not, they're
saying they're kind of makingthose claims like, yeah, what do
you think about the idea ofracism?

Chris (15:50):
I think, I think I don't think much about the idea of
reverse racism to be quitehonest. When I when I when I
hear it, I kind of scoff. And Ithink that there are people in
my family, maybe not immediatefamily. Who would prescribe to

(16:12):
that, you know, well, people arejust trying to keep down the
white man, which is absolutelyabsurd to me. I don't understand
where this idea comes from, andhow you could be so delusional
to like, believe something likethat. I just don't I don't know.

DB Crema (16:35):
Why is an absurd idea.

Chris (16:37):
Why is it an absurd idea?
I think because I think it's anabsurd idea. Because we have we
speaking in the plural here, forfor other white people have this
distinct advantage. You know, I,I feel like being born white, I,

(17:00):
I can't help that I was bornwhite. No less than anyone else
can help that they were born,whatever race they were born.
But I just I don't think thatthere's this, there's this
innate force holding me backbecause my skin is white. The

(17:23):
the way that the way thathistory has unfolded, at least
from my point of view, we'vealways had the upper hand, we've
always had the, the right ofway, so to speak. We're always
starting. Not from behind, notwith our, you know, our hands

(17:45):
tied behind our backs. Tosupport the idea of, of
otherwise, that that we're beingsuppressed in some way is
absurd. I just don't I don'tunderstand how you could how you
confuse a walk that way, Iguess.

DB Crema (18:03):
But didn't you? I mean, he didn't say this. And
but didn't you feel like aminority when you're a kid, you
know, spending time with yourparent, your grandmother, your
grandparents house in a placewhere you were the only white
person like did that stick outto you like, didn't you feel so

Chris (18:20):
the school district that I belong to, I think was Don't
quote me on this. I, I believewas 15% to 20%. White, and the
other? What's the math there?
The other 8080 to 75% wassomething other than white. And
so yeah, there were times whereI didn't understand why someone

(18:43):
black or brown was being calleda minority. You know, in my own
brain, I said, I'm the I'm inthe minority. Here, I, I have a
group of 15 friends, three ofthem are white, the others have
some mix, at the very least ofsomething else, a diverse cast

(19:05):
of characters, so to speak. Andthat was something to contend
with, but only, I think only fora short while until I realized
the actual way of the world inwhich I'm not part of a
minority. Certainly not in thepower structure. In society, I'm

(19:26):
not a part of a minority. So myown upbringing being being
raised by an immigrant mother, Ithink endeared me to Hispanic
culture and challenged me to bemore accepting of, of all
cultures, not just Hispanicculture. And I think about the

(19:50):
long communal table that waspresent that the family built
there. There tamales around. Anda conjures the images of my very
large German family, my mother'sside of the family who, who
still like to this day,especially on special occasions,

(20:12):
comes together for for mealtimes. And I think about the
matriarch of their family andthe reverence and like respect
that they showed, as she, youknow, sat amongst everyone and
passed along this tradition. Andthen I think about, well, I
think about how that mirrors myown grandmother's, both of whom,

(20:34):
you know, took me under theirwing in their kitchens, said,
let me show you how to do this,let me show you how to do that
to try and pass along some sortof cultural identity of my own.
And I think my early learnings,really helps me to understand

(20:55):
and helps me to find, like thesebridges that that can span the
divides between people. Mm hmm.

DB Crema (21:07):
I was, I was thinking about that. And in particular,
something you said about, youknow, you didn't have any
control over being born white,and other people don't have any
control over being born,whatever color that they're
born, and just made me thinklike, what if one of these days
we're no longer born into anyrace?

Chris (21:27):
Well, I think this, this may be a bit far fetched. But I
think that eventually, if thehuman species is to survive,
there won't be any, any racialdifferences or divides it, the
human species in a far flungreality, you know, 1000s of

(21:50):
years from now won't be whiteand black, it won't be different
shades of brown, it will be ahomogenized mixture. And I find
that pretty beautiful to thinkabout, kind of hopeful, really
hopeful thought that we couldstill maintain our, our

(22:12):
identities and know where wecame from, and that the human
races, many celebrations of, of,of identity and, and, and still.
See, this is why I write thingsdown. I almost got there, I
almost got there. Um, I thinkthat there's a time in the far

(22:41):
flung future that we will have ahuman species that exists, that
not only recognizes itsmulticultural backgrounds, but
will look not of any oneparticular shade, but a but a
homogenized group of people. Ithink that's, that's kind of

(23:03):
what I'm trying to say. Yeah, Iget it. When you when you bring
up that question I nowhere,nowhere on your list. But
that's, but that's,

DB Crema (23:15):
that's really what I think about right. So I mean,
the question, it was a differentway of asking, you know, what,
what would it look like, if youcould if you could imagine what
the world would look like, if weno longer taught race? Right? So
it's this idea of like, if wewere no longer born any race,
because just the concept ofrace?

Chris (23:32):
Yeah, I guess I guess that's taking it a little bit
more literally, I think probablybecause the literal, the literal
interpretation of that makesmore sense to me. Because I
don't, I don't know that certainsectors of humanity can look
beyond the differences. I'm notsure that there will ever be a

(23:53):
time when people don't say, lookat that person, they're
different than I am, I'm goingto tell my prodigy that they're
different than I am, you know,they're different than we are.
You know, it's a very hopefulthought. But hopefully, you can
celebrate those differences andnot focus on, you know, being

(24:14):
different. We also have someform of humanity, we all still,
you know, gather on a table toeat food together, that we all
we all have respect andreverence for our elders. That
we all you know, we all loveand, and laugh and, you know,

(24:34):
experience emotions in the sameway. And that's a hopeful
thought that people could lookpast race and not teach it to
their children.

DB Crema (24:54):
Thanks for listening to United States of rates. This
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(25:19):
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