February 21, 2022 • 28 mins
Kyra discusses the challenges that come with being the child of an immigrant in the U.S., always pushed to doing her best and be constantly productive. We discuss the critical need for Black and Brown people to find ways to just rest and her journey to accepting that who she is in fact enough.
In fact, Kyra Assibey-Bonsu is enough. She works on all things that highlight the lives and stories of underrepresented communities by advocating for those who do not have a voice or a platform. She has worked on projects that support marginalized communities across the globe, from students under the caste system in Bihar, India to Syrian refugees' relocation in Argentina. She is an urbanist and is passionate about immigration and migration justice, and produces her own podcast, No Country for Moving, where she discusses socio-cultural issues of immigrants.
She was also a founding board member of BlackSpace and is a current Laundromat Project Create Change Fellow.
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Episode Transcript
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Kyra (00:10):
They would say like if you're struggling with
something, why don't we work onthat as opposed to play, which I
think that's just createschildren who are always working
and don't know how to rest andto like rejuvenate, because I
feel like I'm always going and Istruggle to sometimes just take
time to rest, and to do otherthings that aren't about being
productive.
DB Crema (00:31):
This is United States of race, personal stories of how
our earliest memories determinea lifetime of relationships. I'm
your host DB crema. Today, we'rejoined by Kira Asobi bond zoo,
who works on all things thathighlight the lives and stories
(00:51):
of underrepresented communities,thus advocating for those who do
not have a voice or a platform.
She has worked on projects thatsupport marginalized communities
across the globe, from studentsunder the caste system in Bihar,
India, to Syrian refugeesrelocation in Argentina. She's
an urbanist and is passionateabout immigration and migration
justice, so much so she has herown podcast called No Country
(01:15):
for moving check it out, whereshe discusses socio cultural
issues of immigrants. Andpersonally as the child of
immigrants, my conversation withKira really resonated with me
because so many of us firstgeneration Americans have a
shared experience of growing upwith parents who are not
assimilated to the Americanparenting system. It often
(01:38):
creates in us, all of us thisconstant feeling like we're
never doing enough. And as Kiratalks about, it makes it hard
for us to know how to presspause on the always producing
button. It makes it hard to justrest. Well, I treated myself to
a spa day recently, you see I'mgoing back to a full time job
(02:00):
and I wanted to enjoy somededicated relaxed time before it
starts. So when I checked in formy appointment, I was ready to
unplug, and the spa attendantgave me a tour of the
facilities. And in the poolarea, she pointed to a collage
of life sized pictures on awall, all 50s era smiling and
happy bathing beauties. Thepeople in these photos were
(02:22):
living their best life. Theywere sunny and handsome and
joyful and slim. And as sheswept her hand past the mural,
the attendant smiled and said tome, as you try to relax, let
these photos remind you of asimpler time. Well, immediately
my brain switched back onsimpler times. simpler times for
(02:44):
some maybe you see, the photoswere full of white people, the
people having fun in the photos,the only people having fun, were
white, as if people of otherraces and ethnicities of that
era did not frolic and cavort inthe sun, or at the beach, or at
(03:05):
the pool. And the impliedmessage was that if you just
switch off your thoughts of allyour worries of the world, you
too can be relaxed and happy.
And to be clear, it was a wellintended message. And the
attendant was just trying to bewelcoming and do her job. But I
assume it never even occurred tothis international hotel chain
(03:28):
operating in the southern city,that the mural might be
fundamentally lacking. I mean,did they not notice it was all
whites? And did it not occur tothem that not only white people
treat themselves to spa days? Imean, it clearly did not occur
to them that there was an issuewith representation.
representation matters. But, andI focus here for a moment. It's
(03:53):
also a stark reminder that noteveryone has the pleasure of
just switching off andforgetting about all their woes.
During the same era that thesephotos were taken, among other
things, black boys were beingpublicly lynched, for writing
kind notes to white girls, theywere sweet on. And slave like
conditions continued in the formof sharecropping, on the
(04:15):
plantations in the AmericanSouth, in the fields outside the
very city I was standing in. Sono, not everyone can remove
their worries, hanging them upin the closet for the time being
like a robe one wears for theday at the spa. For some, the
very fact that there is norepresentation in this mural is
(04:35):
a stark reminder that these woesfollow them everywhere. Some
because of their skin color,carry the burden of always
acting properly and always beingthe best as Kyra and I discussed
and never being in the wrongplace at the wrong time. I guess
that brings me back to theimportance of these
conversations, taking the timeto hear and understand people's
(04:58):
experiences both for their joysand their woes, that can make us
all a bit better at practicingempathy, and making space and
giving grace to our fellowhumans, who must carry many of
their woes on their very skin.
So it is my hope that betterunderstanding people's very
personal experiences and liferealities can be the very thing
(05:20):
that creates a world whereeveryone can frolic in the sun,
anywhere at any time, withoutexception, without worry.
(05:41):
So tell me, when did you firstbecome aware of race?
Kyra (05:45):
My very first experience would be when I went entering
kindergarten, I was a semesterlate, my my grandmother had come
from Ghana, to take care of meas she does with all of her
grandchildren. And she wasstaying with at my family's
house, and she was adamant thatI was fluent in tree. She was
(06:05):
like this is, you know, thelanguage of your culture, it's
very important that you arefluent. And so she was there
kind of, you know, protectingthat culture and heritage. And
when I entered, my first day ofkindergarten, was like a whole
pomp and circumstance because Iwas late, not late, technically,
just starting later than others.
And I was already older. Iremember, my mom and sister
(06:28):
driving me there, she walks medown this very long corridor, we
pass by these like reallyMontessori like jungle gyms and
left is the after school daycarecenter, which would become my
home with my home. And there'salso all these other kids
running around. And then we passthrough these two double doors
(06:50):
that are carpeted. And my sisterlike is holding it holding my
hand the entire time I walk into the class with my Barbie pail
lunchbox, and I put it away andI like slowly make my way to my
teachers like circle where allthe kids are sitting around. And
I didn't want to sit by myself.
(07:11):
So I sat in her lap. And I knewthat the top of the teacher's
lap on the teacher's lap. Yeah,I saw the teacher's lap, I was a
teacher. So I sat on theteacher's lap. And I knew that
the top of my like little puffwas hitting like the bottom of
her chin. And I was like alittle self conscious about
everything. I was self consciousabout my hair. And I noticed I
(07:32):
look different from everybodyelse. And and I also knew that
they were speaking in a languagethat I grasped, but I like
really couldn't vocalize. So itwas like I was like, Oh, I know
this language. I don't reallyspeak it commonly my house, my
hair looks different thaneveryone else I can like, feel
the pink lotion like emanatingoff of me, like just just the
(07:56):
gradual realization of howdifferent I was to my
classmates. And even when Iliked or like had little crushes
in kindergarten, and I wouldcompare myself to the other like
little girls like one of myinner being one of my good
friends. She had like, Lily,white hair and very blue eyes.
And I remember watching orcoming up upon her, like hanging
(08:19):
out with the boy I liked. And healso had like very prina blue
eyes and like brown hair, and Iwas like there's a match made in
heaven. And like they lookperfect, like for your chi was
like, Oh, he's mine. But I likerealizing like they like they
look the same. And I look verydifferent. And so maybe the same
as the way it's supposed to be.
You know, like, and I I likereiterated that with my Barbies.
(08:41):
I separated my Barbies inbetween, like the white Barbies
in the black Barbies and theblackberries didn't live in as
nice as a home as the whiteBarbies. They lived in a lesser
home, which was also disturbing.
I realized as I got older howweird Are you did that at home?
I did that at home. Oh, wow. Iremember like first I had them
(09:01):
all like integrated and then Iwas like I was like actually
this is not how this is not theworld I see them in like I see
them like they have a differentspace and so I had them in and
like the apartments on the side.
And by batteries had these verylike lino this apart like this,
almost like townhouse littlemansion, which is really made up
of like shelves. And so they'reall these like little vignettes.
(09:22):
For me, I was like, oh, likeclearly I perceive that
blackness means that you haveless money. Being black means
that you are not as desirable oryou don't really fit because you
look different. That you arelate that you are because I was
like Tinder and also like lateand you start late, but then
there was like the wholelanguage aspect. So there was
(09:44):
all these predisposed beliefsystems that I was creating for
myself, without even havingconversation with my parents.
Like I didn't vocalize any ofthis. I'm okay. And and I'm sure
my sister and parents picked upon some things, but a lot of
that was in private, I didn'ttell them that these people were
very busy lives. So like, therewas just like, she's healthy.
(10:07):
She's doing well, like, we'regonna keep going, you know,
like, it's fine. Like, let'skeep it going. So
DB Crema (10:15):
you're right. Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Your parents
were like, Okay, we're doingwe're doing well enough. keeping
her alive. Um, do you rememberwhat you might have been picking
up from them and where you wereand or where you were picking up
these associations based on raceand color. Like from where
(10:36):
you're picking it up, I
Kyra (10:36):
knew that there was an issue with the fact that I
wasn't speaking English, as wellas all the other kids that I and
so I was actually, as opposed tomoving up with my class. They
kept me back for like, asemester. And I was really upset
about it. Because I was in the,in the meeting with my mom and
my teacher walking around asthey were talking. And they're
like, she's doing great. It'sjust like, she needs to be to a
(10:57):
higher level. So already, I'mlike, okay, that's one thing. To
this day, I tell my mom and momand dad that I'm really my mom.
And she's like, this was not abig deal. A lot of kids are in
that space. You just like, Thisis what they said. And like we
did what was necessary, and youended up in the exact same
place, though, that was youknow, what happened? And then
DB Crema (11:18):
but there was a social separator. So social separation,
really intense with it. Oh,yeah,
Kyra (11:23):
social Bration. And then another aspect was the fact that
my parents were, you know, theywere doing like, well enough,
but we went to I went to privateschool my entire life. So there
were definitely most of the kidsare upper middle class and or if
not, upper class, or they'recoming from money. And so I kept
internalizing that, like, I ampoor. I like clearly not as
(11:43):
smart as everyone else, becauseI'm not in the same class. And
then I'm not like seen as aspretty enough. And it was, it
was from the outside looking in,no one would have picked up on
that again. Mm hmm. But I didn'tfeel it on a day to day basis.
And and you don't forget thosefeelings, like I still struggle
(12:05):
with that enough factor thatlike, oh, is my apartment cute
enough? Is my is my job goodenough? Is what I'm doing enough
is all these other aspects of meat the place of all the people
around me? And so that was kindof shitty.
DB Crema (12:23):
Yeah, to have it submit. I mean, I get it. I
think that resonates a lot withme, but to have it submit so or
at such an early ages. And it'sinteresting to me as well that,
you know, you're looking at thisboy and girl, and you saw them
being looking a lot moresimilar. And so you almost it
was like a self segregation orself marginalization where
you're like, Well, I, I wouldn'tbe the one that would be
(12:46):
attractive to this boy, becauseI don't look like that. Like,
were you getting that fromanyone else? No,
Kyra (12:53):
but I do remember that.
Although I was feeling lesser,they were also like, Oh, she is
smart. And like she's like, verylike capable and very
intelligent. I would also saythat, in my own house. Like when
I there were things that Istruggled with, my parents would
just be there to likecontinually like support. Like
when I did end up going to allgirls school, my writing wasn't
(13:14):
up to par. So I got a tutor, Ihad so much shame about this
tutor. And before that I had amath tutor too. And I had so
much shame about it. Even thoughthese tutors were reference
references from my friends, whoalso had them who were white,
were like, Oh, we're struggling.
They're like, we're struggling.
My parents, like she needs alittle help. I was like, great.
(13:35):
Now there's another strikeagainst me. And I do think that
it is like a representation ofhow our society sees the black
and brown community, like thehustle to like, get into like
the rat race to be at the samelevel as a white person is is
like, almost so unimaginable formany that you're like, When will
I ever be at the same place?
(13:56):
When will I ever be equal?
DB Crema (14:00):
And so this need to like to already exhibit
perfection.
Kyra (14:04):
Oh, yeah. I will say that came for my parents, though. The
perfection thing. And I thinkthat's like an immigrant parent
thing. They're like, do yourbest. Do your absolute best. And
that's all we ask. And if you'renot doing your best, then that's
a problem. Because youreducation is not cheap. They're
like we we put you here foropportunities that we feel that
(14:27):
you will make you a moresuccessful person. So we didn't
come for you to not do yourbest.
DB Crema (14:34):
Right? But there's this like, imply it's not even
that they're implying it but youtake the burden on yourself of
of this idea that doing yourbest also has to be the best.
Kyra (14:45):
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely. It was like a or noa and if there was something
less it was a question. Yeah,they're like cool. You can you
can hang out with your friendsbut like, I like how are your
grades and all your otherclasses? Like, and they wouldn't
keep me from seeing my friendsaltogether. But they would say
like, if you're struggling withsomething, like why don't we
(15:05):
work on that as opposed to play,which I think that's just
creates children who are alwaysworking and don't know how to
rest and to like, rejuvenate.
Because I feel like I'm alwaysgoing, and I struggle to
sometimes just take time to restand delay and to do other things
that aren't about beingproductive.
DB Crema (15:28):
Wow. You're speaking my truth?
Kyra (15:32):
Yeah. No, it's, it's it's so important to rest in I feel
exhausted. And I realized, it'sbecause I feel shame if I
haven't done X amount.
DB Crema (15:45):
And do you think that that's because of, you know,
kind of this immigrantmentality? Or do you think
that's because of being black inAmerica?
Kyra (15:53):
I think it's both or both?
I think it's both. I think forbeing black in America, you're
as I said, you're always notenough. And then the immigrant
mentality is you need to be morethan enough. So you get hit with
it twice. And that isexhausting. I think it's it's,
it's so exhausting.
DB Crema (16:09):
What I hear you saying is that this kind of deeply
ingrained sense of I'm, am Ienough? Or I'm not enough? Is
both about race as and culture?
Kyra (16:20):
Oh, yeah. Absolutely.
Absolutely. And I realized thatwhen I second guess, and third
gas, and fourth guess myself,that my friend who is a black
female, she'll second guessherself. But she's not going
she's not going to the third andthe fourth.
DB Crema (16:38):
Yeah. So So what did you get at home? Like what how
did your family talk about race?
How did they talk aboutidentity?
Kyra (16:48):
Race? I just feel like for Africans, because Africans in
Africa and I will say mostimportantly, like are most of
civically like West Africans areGhanians they're coming from a
place in which they were themajority you know blackness in,
in that concept was in somethingwhere they saw as lesser than,
although low nihilism did createhierarchies in which they were
(17:13):
always seen as lesser than butfor themselves. Like that wasn't
an issue. I think at home mine.
It was very important that myparents for them like a Ghanaian
food, I respected my elders, Itried my best and did my best.
And also was not like a blackAmerican. They call me the text
and jokingly kind of like in apejorative way, it was like this
(17:36):
is messed up. So identity aroundGhanaian Ness was really
important. as like, a GhanaianAmerican child who was the only
Ghanaian in her like schools,typically always, that was
harder, because I spent so muchtime at school. So a lot of that
identity. I feel like my likeblackness, I have to find
(17:58):
through like group contacts,like I did, like gospel choir in
high school, which is where alot of the black women because
it was all girl school, were apart of and so we talked about
things like hair and, and boysand dating, and also their stuff
and like what was happening inour day to day. So a lot of that
context came from came fromschool, which is weird, because
(18:22):
my school is primarily white.
Right? So Right. Yeah. Andyou're
DB Crema (18:27):
saying that's that was where your cultural context of
being a black American camefrom, which, like you is, you're
living in like two differentworlds right at home your
Ghanaian it's all about Ghana,which anyone from on the outside
might assume like Oh, of course,it's black. But you're saying
it's, it doesn't center aroundblackness, per se, because
everybody's Black In Ghana forthe most part. And then outside
(18:50):
the home in school. It was morethis focus on being a black
American in a sea of whiteness.
Kyra (18:57):
Oh, yeah, absolutely. I remember going to Ghana, and
really being immersed in justall the people in the culture
and the food and feeling howwonderful it was. But also that
everyone knew everyone'sbusiness in Ghana. I want to
have these previous Bo's beliefsof like what I was and what I
was doing. They knew I was anAmerican, they knew who my
(19:18):
parents were, before I opened mymouth. I didn't like the fact
that I was already put into abox. And that I felt like I was
constantly trying to definemyself as this person within
Ghana, from a guy named family.
But under the structure of like,I am also like something else
like you're right, your wholeidentity is predetermined, and I
knew that from early age and Ididn't like that I liked having
(19:40):
to rebuild and create my ownstory, but it is a lot of work.
DB Crema (19:47):
Hmm. I'm curious particularly because you know,
you're you come from a Ghanaianhousehold. Do you ever talk to
your family about black America?
Oh, absolutely. Totally. Andwhat it means for your family,
what it means for you and howthat's different from them as a
Ghanaian
Kyra (20:05):
completely different, the whole conversation in my family
is that black Americans aredifferent from African, because
they have been given moreopportunities, then Africans to
be successful, and to rise tothe top. And a lot of the the
common argument or refrain is,if I had as many opportunities,
(20:29):
I'd be twice as far and Iwouldn't have fought or complain
as much as black Americans have.
And I've had this conversationwith Nigerian friends and
Kenyan, like, our parents also,same day, like you've been given
all the opportunities, and wehave them we be doing three
times as much. And so inreference to, you know, black
Americans to African Americans,it's it's often that adage. And
(20:51):
it's
DB Crema (20:54):
a very conservative view,
Kyra (20:55):
it's a very, it's a very black and white view and not
understand the context of likehow racism plays a part in every
culture but in particularly hereit's very it's just very
different so it's
DB Crema (21:09):
how do you grapple with it? How do you sorry not
grapple? How do you confrontthat or converse about it with
your oil in
Kyra (21:15):
the beginning, I just I just I was quiet. I like there
were so many things I arguedwith my parents about I was
like, I am not going here withyou have late I been more vocal,
I said that I understand whereyou're coming from. But what
you're not realizing his how isthe effect of racism in this
type of racism, and growing upamongst it, not to say that you
(21:37):
didn't grow up amongst likestructures that subjugated you,
but it's very different to betorn from your home, and then
sold, and then to like, rebuilda culture and society. And under
an umbrella that kissconsistently seen you as less.
There was already societies andcultures built in Africa and
(21:59):
civilizations. But it's verydifferent when you are brought
and stolen. And, and then youhave to like, navigate a
structure that is honestly justnot for you. And rebuild and
then confront it and explainlike this is racism. And this is
how I feel and have people tellyou, it's not like, Yeah, and so
(22:22):
I've had, I've been more vocalnow. And most like, my mom will
often say to me, she's like, Ihope you're not feeling
downtrodden about this. BecauseI want you to know, like, you
can do what you need to do. Itis possible. Yeah, of course,
it's possible, not saying it'snot possible. It's just very
hard. It is a lot harder. Justyeah. It's harder for black
people.
DB Crema (22:42):
Do they? Do you think your parents realize that you're
a black American? And thatyou're seen as a black American?
Oh, yeah,
Kyra (22:50):
they get it. That's what they call me the Texan. They're
like, Oh, the Texan tie was thetech.
DB Crema (22:56):
Parents who call your family calls you?
Kyra (23:00):
Yeah, isn't that wild? My dad's like, Well, you're the
Texan. Mm hmm.
DB Crema (23:04):
Yeah, I'm a first generation American as well. And
for me, it's like anyone elsewho I can connect on. I mean,
obviously, we didn't grow uptogether or in the same space.
But there's this kind of commonand shared experience of growing
up as American kids, but alsohaving these immigrant parents
and trying to navigate andtranslate between the two, which
(23:27):
was always a constant process.
It was different. Yeah, good orbad.
Kyra (23:31):
It was just different.
Yeah. And at the time, I thoughtit was bad now I just think it's
like a superpower. You know,being able to translate what
people expect. And also what isallowed and what's not allowed.
I feel like it's an it to be abit of a cultural chameleon
myself, like being the only easeor one of the fuse is a concept
that I took with me throughoutmy adult life, until I realized
(23:54):
how separatists that feels oftenand alienating and how you're
always hunting for people tounderstand you. And then when
you're in those groups, yourealize that you are still
distinctive in your own way aswell. Like there's always
something right.
DB Crema (24:14):
Right. But it sounds like you know, this always
there's always being in thisenvironment where you're the
only it sounds like you are theone almost self imposing it. Why
why is that?
Kyra (24:26):
Isn't it wild? I like always self imposed if I lived
in Spain and Argentina, I foundI did found like networks of
like a black community in bothspaces. But I almost feel that I
internalized the fact that likeI had more power as an only as a
(24:47):
as opposed to in a large group.
I was thinking a lot about thisthe other day is like I think
that it gave me a power of or inmy mind, I was thinking a
uniqueness or some sort ofstarpower like there's less
competition.
DB Crema (25:04):
So why the focus on immigrants, or the diaspora
experience in your own podcast,
Kyra (25:15):
because I was treated and have always been treated as an
immigrant, my 20s were spentliving in other countries, and
everyone always saw me as one.
So it really resonated with me.
Because I, I took in a lot ofwhat my parents dealt with
through osmosis, and also justthrough what they directly tell
me about their own immigrantexperience. And so that's an
(25:37):
aspect I want to explore moredeeply, because it's just
different. You know, and I havethese conversations with my
parents, because they don't getthat, you know, someone doesn't
want to have a child. They don'tget that. You know, that I, you
know, that I'm single and happywith it. So, yeah.
DB Crema (26:01):
Yeah, that's it is a whole experience in and of
itself unique from any othergroup of children in this
country. The first one? Oh,yeah. Every single person I
talked to who's and who hasimmigrant parents? All like,
same experience, same differentstories, same experience. Yeah,
doesn't matter where doesn'tmatter. race doesn't matter.
(26:23):
Countries a word,
Kyra (26:23):
I would agree, I would definitely agree. I feel like
it's so good to share whatyou're going through. Because
you realize a lot of peoplerelate right? To be clear, I'm
over the whole enough thing. I'mso done with being though not
enough and enough crap. I tryevery day to not deal with that.
And like, reflect on my week asopposed to cramming it. With
(26:46):
every minute of every hour ofdoing something, it's just not
sustainable. And also remindingmyself to like to treat yourself
enjoy, like the finer things,whether that's like a piece of
cake, or a nice walk. When it'sreally nice out in the middle of
the day. Just finding littlethings or little gifts that will
(27:09):
I can cherish and I can enjoyand give me time to just
breathe. Not think not do justjust be
DB Crema (27:26):
thanks for listening to United States of rates. This
podcast was produced by me. dBcrema. We'd love to hear from
you. Send us a one minute VoiceMemo with any reactions,
questions or stories you'd liketo share. You can use the app on
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States of race@gmail.com. That'sUnited States of race@gmail.com.
(27:51):
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you're listening. That way youwon't miss a single moment.
Until next time
They would say like if you're struggling with
something, why don't we work onthat as opposed to play, which I
think that's just createschildren who are always working
and don't know how to rest andto like rejuvenate, because I
feel like I'm always going and Istruggle to sometimes just take
time to rest, and to do otherthings that aren't about being
productive.
DB Crema (00:31):
This is United States of race, personal stories of how
our earliest memories determinea lifetime of relationships. I'm
your host DB crema. Today, we'rejoined by Kira Asobi bond zoo,
who works on all things thathighlight the lives and stories
(00:51):
of underrepresented communities,thus advocating for those who do
not have a voice or a platform.
She has worked on projects thatsupport marginalized communities
across the globe, from studentsunder the caste system in Bihar,
India, to Syrian refugeesrelocation in Argentina. She's
an urbanist and is passionateabout immigration and migration
justice, so much so she has herown podcast called No Country
(01:15):
for moving check it out, whereshe discusses socio cultural
issues of immigrants. Andpersonally as the child of
immigrants, my conversation withKira really resonated with me
because so many of us firstgeneration Americans have a
shared experience of growing upwith parents who are not
assimilated to the Americanparenting system. It often
(01:38):
creates in us, all of us thisconstant feeling like we're
never doing enough. And as Kiratalks about, it makes it hard
for us to know how to presspause on the always producing
button. It makes it hard to justrest. Well, I treated myself to
a spa day recently, you see I'mgoing back to a full time job
(02:00):
and I wanted to enjoy somededicated relaxed time before it
starts. So when I checked in formy appointment, I was ready to
unplug, and the spa attendantgave me a tour of the
facilities. And in the poolarea, she pointed to a collage
of life sized pictures on awall, all 50s era smiling and
happy bathing beauties. Thepeople in these photos were
(02:22):
living their best life. Theywere sunny and handsome and
joyful and slim. And as sheswept her hand past the mural,
the attendant smiled and said tome, as you try to relax, let
these photos remind you of asimpler time. Well, immediately
my brain switched back onsimpler times. simpler times for
(02:44):
some maybe you see, the photoswere full of white people, the
people having fun in the photos,the only people having fun, were
white, as if people of otherraces and ethnicities of that
era did not frolic and cavort inthe sun, or at the beach, or at
(03:05):
the pool. And the impliedmessage was that if you just
switch off your thoughts of allyour worries of the world, you
too can be relaxed and happy.
And to be clear, it was a wellintended message. And the
attendant was just trying to bewelcoming and do her job. But I
assume it never even occurred tothis international hotel chain
(03:28):
operating in the southern city,that the mural might be
fundamentally lacking. I mean,did they not notice it was all
whites? And did it not occur tothem that not only white people
treat themselves to spa days? Imean, it clearly did not occur
to them that there was an issuewith representation.
representation matters. But, andI focus here for a moment. It's
(03:53):
also a stark reminder that noteveryone has the pleasure of
just switching off andforgetting about all their woes.
During the same era that thesephotos were taken, among other
things, black boys were beingpublicly lynched, for writing
kind notes to white girls, theywere sweet on. And slave like
conditions continued in the formof sharecropping, on the
(04:15):
plantations in the AmericanSouth, in the fields outside the
very city I was standing in. Sono, not everyone can remove
their worries, hanging them upin the closet for the time being
like a robe one wears for theday at the spa. For some, the
very fact that there is norepresentation in this mural is
(04:35):
a stark reminder that these woesfollow them everywhere. Some
because of their skin color,carry the burden of always
acting properly and always beingthe best as Kyra and I discussed
and never being in the wrongplace at the wrong time. I guess
that brings me back to theimportance of these
conversations, taking the timeto hear and understand people's
(04:58):
experiences both for their joysand their woes, that can make us
all a bit better at practicingempathy, and making space and
giving grace to our fellowhumans, who must carry many of
their woes on their very skin.
So it is my hope that betterunderstanding people's very
personal experiences and liferealities can be the very thing
(05:20):
that creates a world whereeveryone can frolic in the sun,
anywhere at any time, withoutexception, without worry.
(05:41):
So tell me, when did you firstbecome aware of race?
Kyra (05:45):
My very first experience would be when I went entering
kindergarten, I was a semesterlate, my my grandmother had come
from Ghana, to take care of meas she does with all of her
grandchildren. And she wasstaying with at my family's
house, and she was adamant thatI was fluent in tree. She was
(06:05):
like this is, you know, thelanguage of your culture, it's
very important that you arefluent. And so she was there
kind of, you know, protectingthat culture and heritage. And
when I entered, my first day ofkindergarten, was like a whole
pomp and circumstance because Iwas late, not late, technically,
just starting later than others.
And I was already older. Iremember, my mom and sister
(06:28):
driving me there, she walks medown this very long corridor, we
pass by these like reallyMontessori like jungle gyms and
left is the after school daycarecenter, which would become my
home with my home. And there'salso all these other kids
running around. And then we passthrough these two double doors
(06:50):
that are carpeted. And my sisterlike is holding it holding my
hand the entire time I walk into the class with my Barbie pail
lunchbox, and I put it away andI like slowly make my way to my
teachers like circle where allthe kids are sitting around. And
I didn't want to sit by myself.
(07:11):
So I sat in her lap. And I knewthat the top of the teacher's
lap on the teacher's lap. Yeah,I saw the teacher's lap, I was a
teacher. So I sat on theteacher's lap. And I knew that
the top of my like little puffwas hitting like the bottom of
her chin. And I was like alittle self conscious about
everything. I was self consciousabout my hair. And I noticed I
(07:32):
look different from everybodyelse. And and I also knew that
they were speaking in a languagethat I grasped, but I like
really couldn't vocalize. So itwas like I was like, Oh, I know
this language. I don't reallyspeak it commonly my house, my
hair looks different thaneveryone else I can like, feel
the pink lotion like emanatingoff of me, like just just the
(07:56):
gradual realization of howdifferent I was to my
classmates. And even when Iliked or like had little crushes
in kindergarten, and I wouldcompare myself to the other like
little girls like one of myinner being one of my good
friends. She had like, Lily,white hair and very blue eyes.
And I remember watching orcoming up upon her, like hanging
(08:19):
out with the boy I liked. And healso had like very prina blue
eyes and like brown hair, and Iwas like there's a match made in
heaven. And like they lookperfect, like for your chi was
like, Oh, he's mine. But I likerealizing like they like they
look the same. And I look verydifferent. And so maybe the same
as the way it's supposed to be.
You know, like, and I I likereiterated that with my Barbies.
(08:41):
I separated my Barbies inbetween, like the white Barbies
in the black Barbies and theblackberries didn't live in as
nice as a home as the whiteBarbies. They lived in a lesser
home, which was also disturbing.
I realized as I got older howweird Are you did that at home?
I did that at home. Oh, wow. Iremember like first I had them
(09:01):
all like integrated and then Iwas like I was like actually
this is not how this is not theworld I see them in like I see
them like they have a differentspace and so I had them in and
like the apartments on the side.
And by batteries had these verylike lino this apart like this,
almost like townhouse littlemansion, which is really made up
of like shelves. And so they'reall these like little vignettes.
(09:22):
For me, I was like, oh, likeclearly I perceive that
blackness means that you haveless money. Being black means
that you are not as desirable oryou don't really fit because you
look different. That you arelate that you are because I was
like Tinder and also like lateand you start late, but then
there was like the wholelanguage aspect. So there was
(09:44):
all these predisposed beliefsystems that I was creating for
myself, without even havingconversation with my parents.
Like I didn't vocalize any ofthis. I'm okay. And and I'm sure
my sister and parents picked upon some things, but a lot of
that was in private, I didn'ttell them that these people were
very busy lives. So like, therewas just like, she's healthy.
(10:07):
She's doing well, like, we'regonna keep going, you know,
like, it's fine. Like, let'skeep it going. So
DB Crema (10:15):
you're right. Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Your parents
were like, Okay, we're doingwe're doing well enough. keeping
her alive. Um, do you rememberwhat you might have been picking
up from them and where you wereand or where you were picking up
these associations based on raceand color. Like from where
(10:36):
you're picking it up, I
Kyra (10:36):
knew that there was an issue with the fact that I
wasn't speaking English, as wellas all the other kids that I and
so I was actually, as opposed tomoving up with my class. They
kept me back for like, asemester. And I was really upset
about it. Because I was in the,in the meeting with my mom and
my teacher walking around asthey were talking. And they're
like, she's doing great. It'sjust like, she needs to be to a
(10:57):
higher level. So already, I'mlike, okay, that's one thing. To
this day, I tell my mom and momand dad that I'm really my mom.
And she's like, this was not abig deal. A lot of kids are in
that space. You just like, Thisis what they said. And like we
did what was necessary, and youended up in the exact same
place, though, that was youknow, what happened? And then
DB Crema (11:18):
but there was a social separator. So social separation,
really intense with it. Oh,yeah,
Kyra (11:23):
social Bration. And then another aspect was the fact that
my parents were, you know, theywere doing like, well enough,
but we went to I went to privateschool my entire life. So there
were definitely most of the kidsare upper middle class and or if
not, upper class, or they'recoming from money. And so I kept
internalizing that, like, I ampoor. I like clearly not as
(11:43):
smart as everyone else, becauseI'm not in the same class. And
then I'm not like seen as aspretty enough. And it was, it
was from the outside looking in,no one would have picked up on
that again. Mm hmm. But I didn'tfeel it on a day to day basis.
And and you don't forget thosefeelings, like I still struggle
(12:05):
with that enough factor thatlike, oh, is my apartment cute
enough? Is my is my job goodenough? Is what I'm doing enough
is all these other aspects of meat the place of all the people
around me? And so that was kindof shitty.
DB Crema (12:23):
Yeah, to have it submit. I mean, I get it. I
think that resonates a lot withme, but to have it submit so or
at such an early ages. And it'sinteresting to me as well that,
you know, you're looking at thisboy and girl, and you saw them
being looking a lot moresimilar. And so you almost it
was like a self segregation orself marginalization where
you're like, Well, I, I wouldn'tbe the one that would be
(12:46):
attractive to this boy, becauseI don't look like that. Like,
were you getting that fromanyone else? No,
Kyra (12:53):
but I do remember that.
Although I was feeling lesser,they were also like, Oh, she is
smart. And like she's like, verylike capable and very
intelligent. I would also saythat, in my own house. Like when
I there were things that Istruggled with, my parents would
just be there to likecontinually like support. Like
when I did end up going to allgirls school, my writing wasn't
(13:14):
up to par. So I got a tutor, Ihad so much shame about this
tutor. And before that I had amath tutor too. And I had so
much shame about it. Even thoughthese tutors were reference
references from my friends, whoalso had them who were white,
were like, Oh, we're struggling.
They're like, we're struggling.
My parents, like she needs alittle help. I was like, great.
(13:35):
Now there's another strikeagainst me. And I do think that
it is like a representation ofhow our society sees the black
and brown community, like thehustle to like, get into like
the rat race to be at the samelevel as a white person is is
like, almost so unimaginable formany that you're like, When will
I ever be at the same place?
(13:56):
When will I ever be equal?
DB Crema (14:00):
And so this need to like to already exhibit
perfection.
Kyra (14:04):
Oh, yeah. I will say that came for my parents, though. The
perfection thing. And I thinkthat's like an immigrant parent
thing. They're like, do yourbest. Do your absolute best. And
that's all we ask. And if you'renot doing your best, then that's
a problem. Because youreducation is not cheap. They're
like we we put you here foropportunities that we feel that
(14:27):
you will make you a moresuccessful person. So we didn't
come for you to not do yourbest.
DB Crema (14:34):
Right? But there's this like, imply it's not even
that they're implying it but youtake the burden on yourself of
of this idea that doing yourbest also has to be the best.
Kyra (14:45):
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely. It was like a or noa and if there was something
less it was a question. Yeah,they're like cool. You can you
can hang out with your friendsbut like, I like how are your
grades and all your otherclasses? Like, and they wouldn't
keep me from seeing my friendsaltogether. But they would say
like, if you're struggling withsomething, like why don't we
(15:05):
work on that as opposed to play,which I think that's just
creates children who are alwaysworking and don't know how to
rest and to like, rejuvenate.
Because I feel like I'm alwaysgoing, and I struggle to
sometimes just take time to restand delay and to do other things
that aren't about beingproductive.
DB Crema (15:28):
Wow. You're speaking my truth?
Kyra (15:32):
Yeah. No, it's, it's it's so important to rest in I feel
exhausted. And I realized, it'sbecause I feel shame if I
haven't done X amount.
DB Crema (15:45):
And do you think that that's because of, you know,
kind of this immigrantmentality? Or do you think
that's because of being black inAmerica?
Kyra (15:53):
I think it's both or both?
I think it's both. I think forbeing black in America, you're
as I said, you're always notenough. And then the immigrant
mentality is you need to be morethan enough. So you get hit with
it twice. And that isexhausting. I think it's it's,
it's so exhausting.
DB Crema (16:09):
What I hear you saying is that this kind of deeply
ingrained sense of I'm, am Ienough? Or I'm not enough? Is
both about race as and culture?
Kyra (16:20):
Oh, yeah. Absolutely.
Absolutely. And I realized thatwhen I second guess, and third
gas, and fourth guess myself,that my friend who is a black
female, she'll second guessherself. But she's not going
she's not going to the third andthe fourth.
DB Crema (16:38):
Yeah. So So what did you get at home? Like what how
did your family talk about race?
How did they talk aboutidentity?
Kyra (16:48):
Race? I just feel like for Africans, because Africans in
Africa and I will say mostimportantly, like are most of
civically like West Africans areGhanians they're coming from a
place in which they were themajority you know blackness in,
in that concept was in somethingwhere they saw as lesser than,
although low nihilism did createhierarchies in which they were
(17:13):
always seen as lesser than butfor themselves. Like that wasn't
an issue. I think at home mine.
It was very important that myparents for them like a Ghanaian
food, I respected my elders, Itried my best and did my best.
And also was not like a blackAmerican. They call me the text
and jokingly kind of like in apejorative way, it was like this
(17:36):
is messed up. So identity aroundGhanaian Ness was really
important. as like, a GhanaianAmerican child who was the only
Ghanaian in her like schools,typically always, that was
harder, because I spent so muchtime at school. So a lot of that
identity. I feel like my likeblackness, I have to find
(17:58):
through like group contacts,like I did, like gospel choir in
high school, which is where alot of the black women because
it was all girl school, were apart of and so we talked about
things like hair and, and boysand dating, and also their stuff
and like what was happening inour day to day. So a lot of that
context came from came fromschool, which is weird, because
(18:22):
my school is primarily white.
Right? So Right. Yeah. Andyou're
DB Crema (18:27):
saying that's that was where your cultural context of
being a black American camefrom, which, like you is, you're
living in like two differentworlds right at home your
Ghanaian it's all about Ghana,which anyone from on the outside
might assume like Oh, of course,it's black. But you're saying
it's, it doesn't center aroundblackness, per se, because
everybody's Black In Ghana forthe most part. And then outside
(18:50):
the home in school. It was morethis focus on being a black
American in a sea of whiteness.
Kyra (18:57):
Oh, yeah, absolutely. I remember going to Ghana, and
really being immersed in justall the people in the culture
and the food and feeling howwonderful it was. But also that
everyone knew everyone'sbusiness in Ghana. I want to
have these previous Bo's beliefsof like what I was and what I
was doing. They knew I was anAmerican, they knew who my
(19:18):
parents were, before I opened mymouth. I didn't like the fact
that I was already put into abox. And that I felt like I was
constantly trying to definemyself as this person within
Ghana, from a guy named family.
But under the structure of like,I am also like something else
like you're right, your wholeidentity is predetermined, and I
knew that from early age and Ididn't like that I liked having
(19:40):
to rebuild and create my ownstory, but it is a lot of work.
DB Crema (19:47):
Hmm. I'm curious particularly because you know,
you're you come from a Ghanaianhousehold. Do you ever talk to
your family about black America?
Oh, absolutely. Totally. Andwhat it means for your family,
what it means for you and howthat's different from them as a
Ghanaian
Kyra (20:05):
completely different, the whole conversation in my family
is that black Americans aredifferent from African, because
they have been given moreopportunities, then Africans to
be successful, and to rise tothe top. And a lot of the the
common argument or refrain is,if I had as many opportunities,
(20:29):
I'd be twice as far and Iwouldn't have fought or complain
as much as black Americans have.
And I've had this conversationwith Nigerian friends and
Kenyan, like, our parents also,same day, like you've been given
all the opportunities, and wehave them we be doing three
times as much. And so inreference to, you know, black
Americans to African Americans,it's it's often that adage. And
(20:51):
it's
DB Crema (20:54):
a very conservative view,
Kyra (20:55):
it's a very, it's a very black and white view and not
understand the context of likehow racism plays a part in every
culture but in particularly hereit's very it's just very
different so it's
DB Crema (21:09):
how do you grapple with it? How do you sorry not
grapple? How do you confrontthat or converse about it with
your oil in
Kyra (21:15):
the beginning, I just I just I was quiet. I like there
were so many things I arguedwith my parents about I was
like, I am not going here withyou have late I been more vocal,
I said that I understand whereyou're coming from. But what
you're not realizing his how isthe effect of racism in this
type of racism, and growing upamongst it, not to say that you
(21:37):
didn't grow up amongst likestructures that subjugated you,
but it's very different to betorn from your home, and then
sold, and then to like, rebuilda culture and society. And under
an umbrella that kissconsistently seen you as less.
There was already societies andcultures built in Africa and
(21:59):
civilizations. But it's verydifferent when you are brought
and stolen. And, and then youhave to like, navigate a
structure that is honestly justnot for you. And rebuild and
then confront it and explainlike this is racism. And this is
how I feel and have people tellyou, it's not like, Yeah, and so
(22:22):
I've had, I've been more vocalnow. And most like, my mom will
often say to me, she's like, Ihope you're not feeling
downtrodden about this. BecauseI want you to know, like, you
can do what you need to do. Itis possible. Yeah, of course,
it's possible, not saying it'snot possible. It's just very
hard. It is a lot harder. Justyeah. It's harder for black
people.
DB Crema (22:42):
Do they? Do you think your parents realize that you're
a black American? And thatyou're seen as a black American?
Oh, yeah,
Kyra (22:50):
they get it. That's what they call me the Texan. They're
like, Oh, the Texan tie was thetech.
DB Crema (22:56):
Parents who call your family calls you?
Kyra (23:00):
Yeah, isn't that wild? My dad's like, Well, you're the
Texan. Mm hmm.
DB Crema (23:04):
Yeah, I'm a first generation American as well. And
for me, it's like anyone elsewho I can connect on. I mean,
obviously, we didn't grow uptogether or in the same space.
But there's this kind of commonand shared experience of growing
up as American kids, but alsohaving these immigrant parents
and trying to navigate andtranslate between the two, which
(23:27):
was always a constant process.
It was different. Yeah, good orbad.
Kyra (23:31):
It was just different.
Yeah. And at the time, I thoughtit was bad now I just think it's
like a superpower. You know,being able to translate what
people expect. And also what isallowed and what's not allowed.
I feel like it's an it to be abit of a cultural chameleon
myself, like being the only easeor one of the fuse is a concept
that I took with me throughoutmy adult life, until I realized
(23:54):
how separatists that feels oftenand alienating and how you're
always hunting for people tounderstand you. And then when
you're in those groups, yourealize that you are still
distinctive in your own way aswell. Like there's always
something right.
DB Crema (24:14):
Right. But it sounds like you know, this always
there's always being in thisenvironment where you're the
only it sounds like you are theone almost self imposing it. Why
why is that?
Kyra (24:26):
Isn't it wild? I like always self imposed if I lived
in Spain and Argentina, I foundI did found like networks of
like a black community in bothspaces. But I almost feel that I
internalized the fact that likeI had more power as an only as a
(24:47):
as opposed to in a large group.
I was thinking a lot about thisthe other day is like I think
that it gave me a power of or inmy mind, I was thinking a
uniqueness or some sort ofstarpower like there's less
competition.
DB Crema (25:04):
So why the focus on immigrants, or the diaspora
experience in your own podcast,
Kyra (25:15):
because I was treated and have always been treated as an
immigrant, my 20s were spentliving in other countries, and
everyone always saw me as one.
So it really resonated with me.
Because I, I took in a lot ofwhat my parents dealt with
through osmosis, and also justthrough what they directly tell
me about their own immigrantexperience. And so that's an
(25:37):
aspect I want to explore moredeeply, because it's just
different. You know, and I havethese conversations with my
parents, because they don't getthat, you know, someone doesn't
want to have a child. They don'tget that. You know, that I, you
know, that I'm single and happywith it. So, yeah.
DB Crema (26:01):
Yeah, that's it is a whole experience in and of
itself unique from any othergroup of children in this
country. The first one? Oh,yeah. Every single person I
talked to who's and who hasimmigrant parents? All like,
same experience, same differentstories, same experience. Yeah,
doesn't matter where doesn'tmatter. race doesn't matter.
(26:23):
Countries a word,
Kyra (26:23):
I would agree, I would definitely agree. I feel like
it's so good to share whatyou're going through. Because
you realize a lot of peoplerelate right? To be clear, I'm
over the whole enough thing. I'mso done with being though not
enough and enough crap. I tryevery day to not deal with that.
And like, reflect on my week asopposed to cramming it. With
(26:46):
every minute of every hour ofdoing something, it's just not
sustainable. And also remindingmyself to like to treat yourself
enjoy, like the finer things,whether that's like a piece of
cake, or a nice walk. When it'sreally nice out in the middle of
the day. Just finding littlethings or little gifts that will
(27:09):
I can cherish and I can enjoyand give me time to just
breathe. Not think not do justjust be
DB Crema (27:26):
thanks for listening to United States of rates. This
podcast was produced by me. dBcrema. We'd love to hear from
you. Send us a one minute VoiceMemo with any reactions,
questions or stories you'd liketo share. You can use the app on
your phone to record the voicememo and email it to United
States of race@gmail.com. That'sUnited States of race@gmail.com.
(27:51):
It might even be included in anupcoming episode. And be sure to
hit follow or subscribe onwhichever podcast platform
you're listening. That way youwon't miss a single moment.
Until next time
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