March 1, 2021 • 19 mins
Katie has thought a lot about how she dealt with race when playing make-believe as a child, but she wonders if she will be equipped to handle her kids’ questions about race as they grow older.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Katie (00:10):
I think it's weird how we say, you know, this American,
that American for other things,and then you're just like,
white. Versus like, if we'regonna go world origin -
American, let's do it foreveryone. That's the privilege,
right? It just doesn't feel thatrelevant. I'm just the
background that people don'tquestion, they just...I carry on
my merry way. Yeah, that's theprivilege right there.
DB Crema (00:35):
This is United States of Race, personal stories of how
our earliest memories determinea lifetime of relationships.
Each episode features one guestsharing their experiences with
race. Keeping these episodesanonymous lets our guests share
the real uninhibited stories oftheir life. And it gives us the
(00:56):
chance to listen withoutprejudice. I'm your host, DB
Crema. Today, we're joined byKatie, who has thought a lot
about how she dealt with racewhen playing make believe as a
child. But she wonders if she'llbe equipped to handle her kids
questions about race as theygrow older.
(01:19):
When did you first become awareof race?
Katie (01:23):
The one memory that stands out as an actual memory
versus just this kind of little,you know, drips and drops that
kind of fill up your cup overtime is of playing Barbies with
a couple other little girls. Andthere were two white Barbies and
one black Barbie and we weregoing to be playing pop stars,
(01:45):
right or something like that. Idon't know what we called it
when we were like eight orsomething. Not too old to have
outgrown Barbies, of course. Butnot too young that I can't
actually remember it. But thethree singers who these Barbies
were going to be was going to beMadonna and Cyndi Lauper and
Whitney Houston. And it was, Idon't know, I just had, I had a
(02:07):
very strong understanding thatWhitney Houston was the one
you'd least want to be. Right,that Madonna and Cyndi Lauper
were the better Barbies to play.
And that Whitney Houston wasdrawing the short straw. I
guess, in that moment, if youwould ask me why I would have
said Oh, because she's black. Imean, now I can just articulate
(02:27):
right? It's this idea of value,just that that is a less
valuable person to be eventhough she obviously has the way
better voice, right, in terms oflike, being overall talented. Of
course, you'd want to be WhitneyHouston. She's obviously the
best singer. It's so strange tolook back and say like, I know
that being black was less than.
I don't know why, but I justknow that it is. And I'm
(02:50):
thinking oh, well, somebody hada black Barbie, so that's good.
DB Crema (02:53):
Who had a black Barbie?
Katie (02:55):
I don't know.
DB Crema (02:56):
I don't recall having a black Barbie. I don't recall
that being an option.
Katie (02:59):
Oh, yeah. I mean, I definitely remember when it came
to like the Christmas... therewould be like the orange chiffon
blonde Barbie. And there waslike the orange chiffon black
Barbie.
DB Crema (03:11):
What did you take away from that Barbie experience? All
three of you were clearlybringing in this understanding
of, you know, what's positive,what's negative?
Katie (03:20):
You know, as I think back, I think, probably the only
reason I remember it, versus itjust fading into the mists of
time is that I feltuncomfortable about it. Like
that there was some shame in methat like, I do actually think
this is worse, right? Like, Idon't want to play the black
doll. And it's wrong to thinkthat way. Right? You shouldn't
(03:41):
be having these thoughts. Youshouldn't say you like this one
less, even though everyone kindof like agrees that they all
want it less. Like don't own upto that. My guess is that that's
why that memory is there becauseof that little tinge of shame
and discomfort. And it's funny,right? I mean, I'm thinking, I
probably would not have talkedabout that experience in kind of
(04:03):
such like, an explicit natureand kind of like owned up, like,
in my 20s or something. I'm justthinking in my teens or 20s. If
you'd asked me to like share astory. I might have pulled that
up, but I probably wouldn't havedisclosed it because I would
have still felt a lot of shamearound like you don't have those
thoughts. Right. You shouldn'tthink that that's, you know,
don't own up to racism,basically. Right? Don't ever
(04:25):
disclose it. You might havethose thoughts and feelings but
you don't ever talk about it.
Because then people will lookdown on me for having had that
thought. I'm bad for having thatthought.
DB Crema (04:37):
Hmm mmmhmm.
Katie (04:39):
Just thinking about like kind of the the racial mix of
the kids and families. I grew upwith just very few black
families in our in ourneighborhood. Definitely a fair
number of Asian kids who I grewup with. Hispanic families. This
was the bay area near SanFrancisco in the 1980s. There
were definitely strong racialdivisions in terms of
(04:59):
neighborhoods on the other sideof the hills having a lot of
black families living there. Andso there was definitely messages
like when we would go to anOakland A's game, and we're like
driving through thoseneighborhoods, there was like,
palpable tension in the car aswe drove through those
neighborhoods, and my mom wouldkind of narrate, right, like,
which neighborhoods were, werebad and to kind of, you know,
(05:20):
stay out of or actually, I wastoo little to go anywhere on my
own. So I think the messagewould be lock your doors, right,
when you kind of go drivingthrough a certain neighborhood.
DB Crema (05:29):
Do you remember at that age, connecting the lock
your doors, we've taken a wrongterm with anything to do with
the specific neighborhood like,you know, racial or..
Katie (05:42):
Right, I think it was a correlation with race, poverty
and crime. Like, I don'tremember the lock your doors
aspect, as we were drivingthrough, say, heavily Hispanic
neighborhoods that were muchcloser to our own. I mostly just
remembered about like Oaklandneighborhoods. But I guess, you
(06:02):
know, I think what the kidnotices is, I don't see black
people very often. The time I dois like, in these situations,
when I'm being told lock yourdoors.
DB Crema (06:13):
So why do you talk about it now? Why would you
share that story now? If you, ifyou think, you know, in the 20s,
that's not something you wouldfeel comfortable sharing, but
now you can confront it.
Katie (06:24):
Oh, wow. I mean, if you hadn't asked the question, like
that story would not have pulledout of the, you know, the vaults
of antiquity for me. So kind ofspeaking of identity, right,
there was no questioning aboutmy racial background. I was, I
was teased for being so pale.
And so I had some strongfeelings about that, and kind
of, you know, why can't peoplejust accept me as I am? Why do
(06:49):
you have to constantly betelling me to get a tan? Like,
it felt bad. But speaking ofmessages we get about what is
like good and preferable -Definitely, my mom, spoken with
pride. Ah, yes. Right. You know,Revolutionary War, blah, blah,
blah, like, long standing, blah,blah, blah, kind of too far back
(07:09):
to trace, all that kind of stuffwas not set in a neutral tone.
It was as a as a point of pride.
DB Crema (07:17):
Is it about ownership, belonging?
Katie (07:21):
I don't know. It's interesting. Thinking about just
kind of like the thread ofownership that runs through
American history, this idea ofAnglo Saxons being like the real
Americans. People love to showup somewhere first, and then
tell anyone who shows up later,like too late for you, right?
Like...
DB Crema (07:40):
There's also this implied purity, or fascination
with purity?
Katie (07:45):
Uh huh.
I think part of it hooks into mymom's own personal loss of
status through her family havingbeen wealthy before she was
born. And then their huge lossof financial status when she was
maybe like two years old. And soeven if we don't have financial
(08:05):
wealth, we still have, you know,the status of our background,
right? The status of our lineagethat can never be taken away
from us, even if we're, youknow, considering applying for
food stamps, you know., So, itwas like, these are the messages
I got just talking about us andnot really talking about in the
context of others, but just theus, right, this is who you are,
(08:29):
right? This is what you shouldbe, like, proud of. This is what
makes you special. So I thinkthat's where it's kind of
interesting, there wasn't a lotof discussion of the other. But
there was more discussion abouthere's who you are and why you
should be proud.
DB Crema (08:42):
So you have small kids who are mixed race. Do they, do
they approach you? How do theyapproach you on this topic?
Katie (08:50):
So they have not approached me. We have from an
early age really just kind oftalked about different human
characteristics as justdifferences, right? I mean,
they're still pretty small. Somy son is not yet seven. And my
daughter is not yet four. Andtheir grandparents are... Well,
(09:15):
certainly their grandfather isthe darkest skinned of our
family. And then their dad andgrandma are kind of a slightly
lighter brown shade. Rthnicbackground wise, his parents
both grew up in Trinidad, ofSoutheast Asian and Indian
(09:35):
origins. So as far as they kindof know, their family members
came from Southeast Asia, inlike the 1830s or so to Trinidad
as indentured servants. So it'sinteresting even in terms of
kind of describing, like, thebackground of my children and my
husband's background, right.
It's not just like, it's not asimple story, just in terms of
(09:57):
like, oh, Why are you Brown?
Right? So how we talk about toour kids, right? Very much just
about well, there's lots ofdifferent ways that people in
our family look right. I have ahard time describing my skin
tone, right? We can talk abouttheir various shades of brown,
but like, I don't really havelike a lot of brown in my tone.
(10:20):
But I'm not like a classic pinkcolor. So like, what am I right?
Because I like white is not anaccurate... I'm also not, you
know, the color of a whitesheet. It's like, peachy, pinky,
something, right? So languagefails on that. But at least for
the children and their dad andtheir grandparents, right, we
can talk about these differentshades of brown. And we started
(10:40):
early on reading, you know,colors about different, you
know, skin tones and hair tonesand those kinds of things. But
we haven't really gone beyondthat yet. Other than with my
older, my older child, my son,starting to talk about how, in
American history, there havebeen some people who think that
(11:03):
based on what you look like inyour family background, some
people were better than others.
And that that was really a badthing to do. We don't want to do
that anymore. So he's old enoughto be learning how to read. And
so part of his homeworkassignment is reading these
little, like a little websitewith little kids, you know,
first grade appropriate readinglevel stories. And one of them
was about Harriet Tubman, right?
(11:26):
Like a very brief Harriet Tubmankid story. And talking about
wars, right? And talking aboutwell, in the US, there was a,
you know, kind of talking aboutAmerican history, like, what is
our country? Okay, well, wefought this war so that we could
be separate from England whoused to kind of be in charge of
the, you know, the people wholived here, and that was called
(11:47):
the Revolutionary War. And thenlater on, there was this other
war that we fought like, withinourselves, because some people
thought that it was okay to ownother human beings. And other
people thought, No, that that'snot okay. anymore. We're not
going to do that anymore, and sothey had a war. And we're glad
that the, you know, people whowon were the ones who said, No,
that's, that's not okay to dothat. So then, right, we read
(12:09):
the little Harriet Tubman book.
And, and at some point, there'sactually a little map and it
shows like what the slave stateswere and what the free states
were. And, I wish, I wish I'dhad a little tape recording
going at the moment cuz it was,I can't, I want people to get
his phrasing. Correct. But itwas so interesting, is he
basically said, something alongthe lines of like, "your people
lost." Like me, being whitepeople. Right? And I had this
(12:34):
little defensive reaction. I waslike, Well, my people lived in
the north, right? Like, myfamily were the good guys who
were fighting on the right side.
Like, Oh, God, it was so funny.
I didn't quite say it that way.
But well, well, you know, likethe people from from our family
who were living there, then theywere fighting on the side to, to
(12:56):
end slavery. He kind of stuckwith his guns a little bit like,
still though, you know, was thethe people who thought, you
know, white people were betterwere the ones who lost. And I
was like, Yeah, you're right.
DB Crema (13:11):
Do you and your husband talk about race, the
experience, your experiencesgrowing up what to do with your
children, how to take themforward?
Katie (13:18):
So my husband, I definitely had more
conversations about this kind ofearlier in our relationship,
right in terms of just gettingto know each other and right,
talking about our experiences.
And his experiences areinteresting, because he, as he's
getting older to me, right, hedefinitely kind of reads more,
more Indian, especially when hehasn't like shaved his head
(13:39):
recently and he's got, you know,he's kind of bald on top and
kind of getting the stubble onthe side. But when he was
younger, sometime in highschool, he started shaving his
head is like his preferredhairstyle. And he to most people
read as black. Most people kindof assume that he was a light
skinned black guy. And so hedescribed numerous experiences
of being pulled over by policefor like, not wearing his
(14:03):
seatbelt. Right, just as anexcuse to kind of suss him out.
One time walking through this...
well, we were walking together,actually. So this is one that I
experienced. I was like, what'shappening? And he had to
translate for me what washappening because we were in
this little, this little enclavein the Bay Area called Clayton,
which is very, very white. Andwe had just been to a
(14:25):
restaurant, we're walking backto our car, and we're walking
past somebody else's car. Andthey like, lock their car as we
were walking by, right, and itdid the flashing and I almost
like jumped out of my skinbecause it startled me. I was
like, What the hell was that?
And like, my husband had toexplain, oh, they were locking
their car because I was walkingpast it and made them feel
nervous. And I was like, lookingaround, like, who the hell just
(14:51):
did that, like, how dare youlike, What the hell's wrong with
these people? I was so...
DB Crema (14:58):
Incensed.
Katie (14:59):
I was so incensed.
Because also it was it was newto me, right? He's had like 30
years of this. And so he's like,Oh, yeah, that's what that is.
Right? He's over the what thefuck period, with that.
DB Crema (15:10):
You can't live your life in the what the fuck
period. You'd get nothing done.
Katie (15:12):
Right! Exactly. So, gosh, we have had conversations about
the importance of givingchildren a strong racial and
ethnic identity, right? Well,non-white children, they need to
kind of know their heritage,feel good about it, feel
connected to it. But then beyondthat, I feel like we haven't
(15:33):
really had many follow upconversations about how to do
that. I'm just thinking about...
So my son is... I don't know. Hehas yet to report that anybody
has questioned him about hisethnicity. So I will be curious
when that becomes a thing. Andjust to see how he responds to
it and, and who he comes to withit. Right? Will he come to his
(15:53):
dad, with it? I don't know. Andven as I say that out loud. I'm
ike, I wonder how equipped heeels to answer that question.
r if he'll be like, I don'tnow, right? Like,
DB Crema (16:07):
Do you think he would understand why someone would ask
him where he's from? Do youthink he would understand why
people are asking that or whatthey're what they're trying to
ask?
Katie (16:17):
Part of me says, like, no, he'd be like, What are you
talking about? That's just aninteresting part of the journey,
yet to come. I mean, partly,I've, like I care about these
things. But I also, I also feelsupremely ignorant and ready to
defer to my husband's expertiseon it. Like, I'm a well
(16:39):
intentioned white person. But Ijust don't know, right? I just
don't know what it's like. Andso I don't know, necessarily the
best thing to do. And I'll giveit my best shot, but, but I
always want to refer to thelived experience of someone who
actually knows. But even then,right, like, my husband doesn't
know what it's like to bebiracial. So...
DB Crema (16:56):
Have you thought about whether or not and how to
approach your kids regarding thenegative experiences they might
experience?
Katie (17:05):
I've talked in general, right, that idea of like, some
people think that some peopleare better than others based on
how they look or what their bestguess is about, you know, what
their family background is. Andthat's wrong. Right. But some
people, some people still do it.
DB Crema (17:24):
I guess the question is, do you warn them that they
might be at the receiving end ofthat?
Katie (17:30):
I have not?
DB Crema (17:31):
Or do you let them figure it out? In the preparing
them for it, you create...It'syou, then, that becomes the
driver of the anxiety,
Katie (17:40):
Right. That's, that's part of it. I don't want to
cause them to worry aboutsomething before it happens. And
not to say like, get ready, it'scoming for you. Right, like, but
to say like, some people dothat. And that idea that, yeah,
just that that way of thinkingis ...is like so whack, that it
(18:02):
will land less. And then also totalk very favorably about what
they look like. Right. So tosay, right, your beautiful brown
skin, your beautiful brown eyes,you know, your beautiful brown
hair, right and to really justbe loving and complimentary of,
of what they look like and whothey are. Hoping that when they
(18:23):
meet, you know, whoever thatunknown asshole might be, that
they feel like, well you'reobviously wrong, because I'm
awesome.
DB Crema (18:43):
Thanks for listening to United States of Race. This
podcast was produced by me, Yourhost DB Crema, and our artwork
is designed by Aly Creative. Ifyou love great storytelling, go
ahead and subscribe to UnitedStates of Race on Spotify, Apple
podcasts, or wherever you getyour podcasts and show us a love
(19:04):
by rating and writing a reviewon Apple podcasts or Podchaser.
You see podchaser.com is theworld's most comprehensive
podcast database. So rating andwriting a review there helps us
get the message out and helpsother listeners discover this
amazing show. And you can alsoshare this podcast with your
friends, and anyone who believesin the power of building
(19:26):
connection through sharingpersonal stories. You can also
follow us on Instagram atunitedstatesofrace. And as
always, if you, Yes, you have acompelling story to share and
would like to be featured on anupcoming episode. Send us a
message atunitedstatesofrace@gmail.com.
(19:47):
Until next time.,
I think it's weird how we say, you know, this American,
that American for other things,and then you're just like,
white. Versus like, if we'regonna go world origin -
American, let's do it foreveryone. That's the privilege,
right? It just doesn't feel thatrelevant. I'm just the
background that people don'tquestion, they just...I carry on
my merry way. Yeah, that's theprivilege right there.
DB Crema (00:35):
This is United States of Race, personal stories of how
our earliest memories determinea lifetime of relationships.
Each episode features one guestsharing their experiences with
race. Keeping these episodesanonymous lets our guests share
the real uninhibited stories oftheir life. And it gives us the
(00:56):
chance to listen withoutprejudice. I'm your host, DB
Crema. Today, we're joined byKatie, who has thought a lot
about how she dealt with racewhen playing make believe as a
child. But she wonders if she'llbe equipped to handle her kids
questions about race as theygrow older.
(01:19):
When did you first become awareof race?
Katie (01:23):
The one memory that stands out as an actual memory
versus just this kind of little,you know, drips and drops that
kind of fill up your cup overtime is of playing Barbies with
a couple other little girls. Andthere were two white Barbies and
one black Barbie and we weregoing to be playing pop stars,
(01:45):
right or something like that. Idon't know what we called it
when we were like eight orsomething. Not too old to have
outgrown Barbies, of course. Butnot too young that I can't
actually remember it. But thethree singers who these Barbies
were going to be was going to beMadonna and Cyndi Lauper and
Whitney Houston. And it was, Idon't know, I just had, I had a
(02:07):
very strong understanding thatWhitney Houston was the one
you'd least want to be. Right,that Madonna and Cyndi Lauper
were the better Barbies to play.
And that Whitney Houston wasdrawing the short straw. I
guess, in that moment, if youwould ask me why I would have
said Oh, because she's black. Imean, now I can just articulate
(02:27):
right? It's this idea of value,just that that is a less
valuable person to be eventhough she obviously has the way
better voice, right, in terms oflike, being overall talented. Of
course, you'd want to be WhitneyHouston. She's obviously the
best singer. It's so strange tolook back and say like, I know
that being black was less than.
I don't know why, but I justknow that it is. And I'm
(02:50):
thinking oh, well, somebody hada black Barbie, so that's good.
DB Crema (02:53):
Who had a black Barbie?
Katie (02:55):
I don't know.
DB Crema (02:56):
I don't recall having a black Barbie. I don't recall
that being an option.
Katie (02:59):
Oh, yeah. I mean, I definitely remember when it came
to like the Christmas... therewould be like the orange chiffon
blonde Barbie. And there waslike the orange chiffon black
Barbie.
DB Crema (03:11):
What did you take away from that Barbie experience? All
three of you were clearlybringing in this understanding
of, you know, what's positive,what's negative?
Katie (03:20):
You know, as I think back, I think, probably the only
reason I remember it, versus itjust fading into the mists of
time is that I feltuncomfortable about it. Like
that there was some shame in methat like, I do actually think
this is worse, right? Like, Idon't want to play the black
doll. And it's wrong to thinkthat way. Right? You shouldn't
(03:41):
be having these thoughts. Youshouldn't say you like this one
less, even though everyone kindof like agrees that they all
want it less. Like don't own upto that. My guess is that that's
why that memory is there becauseof that little tinge of shame
and discomfort. And it's funny,right? I mean, I'm thinking, I
probably would not have talkedabout that experience in kind of
(04:03):
such like, an explicit natureand kind of like owned up, like,
in my 20s or something. I'm justthinking in my teens or 20s. If
you'd asked me to like share astory. I might have pulled that
up, but I probably wouldn't havedisclosed it because I would
have still felt a lot of shamearound like you don't have those
thoughts. Right. You shouldn'tthink that that's, you know,
don't own up to racism,basically. Right? Don't ever
(04:25):
disclose it. You might havethose thoughts and feelings but
you don't ever talk about it.
Because then people will lookdown on me for having had that
thought. I'm bad for having thatthought.
DB Crema (04:37):
Hmm mmmhmm.
Katie (04:39):
Just thinking about like kind of the the racial mix of
the kids and families. I grew upwith just very few black
families in our in ourneighborhood. Definitely a fair
number of Asian kids who I grewup with. Hispanic families. This
was the bay area near SanFrancisco in the 1980s. There
were definitely strong racialdivisions in terms of
(04:59):
neighborhoods on the other sideof the hills having a lot of
black families living there. Andso there was definitely messages
like when we would go to anOakland A's game, and we're like
driving through thoseneighborhoods, there was like,
palpable tension in the car aswe drove through those
neighborhoods, and my mom wouldkind of narrate, right, like,
which neighborhoods were, werebad and to kind of, you know,
(05:20):
stay out of or actually, I wastoo little to go anywhere on my
own. So I think the messagewould be lock your doors, right,
when you kind of go drivingthrough a certain neighborhood.
DB Crema (05:29):
Do you remember at that age, connecting the lock
your doors, we've taken a wrongterm with anything to do with
the specific neighborhood like,you know, racial or..
Katie (05:42):
Right, I think it was a correlation with race, poverty
and crime. Like, I don'tremember the lock your doors
aspect, as we were drivingthrough, say, heavily Hispanic
neighborhoods that were muchcloser to our own. I mostly just
remembered about like Oaklandneighborhoods. But I guess, you
(06:02):
know, I think what the kidnotices is, I don't see black
people very often. The time I dois like, in these situations,
when I'm being told lock yourdoors.
DB Crema (06:13):
So why do you talk about it now? Why would you
share that story now? If you, ifyou think, you know, in the 20s,
that's not something you wouldfeel comfortable sharing, but
now you can confront it.
Katie (06:24):
Oh, wow. I mean, if you hadn't asked the question, like
that story would not have pulledout of the, you know, the vaults
of antiquity for me. So kind ofspeaking of identity, right,
there was no questioning aboutmy racial background. I was, I
was teased for being so pale.
And so I had some strongfeelings about that, and kind
of, you know, why can't peoplejust accept me as I am? Why do
(06:49):
you have to constantly betelling me to get a tan? Like,
it felt bad. But speaking ofmessages we get about what is
like good and preferable -Definitely, my mom, spoken with
pride. Ah, yes. Right. You know,Revolutionary War, blah, blah,
blah, like, long standing, blah,blah, blah, kind of too far back
(07:09):
to trace, all that kind of stuffwas not set in a neutral tone.
It was as a as a point of pride.
DB Crema (07:17):
Is it about ownership, belonging?
Katie (07:21):
I don't know. It's interesting. Thinking about just
kind of like the thread ofownership that runs through
American history, this idea ofAnglo Saxons being like the real
Americans. People love to showup somewhere first, and then
tell anyone who shows up later,like too late for you, right?
Like...
DB Crema (07:40):
There's also this implied purity, or fascination
with purity?
Katie (07:45):
Uh huh.
I think part of it hooks into mymom's own personal loss of
status through her family havingbeen wealthy before she was
born. And then their huge lossof financial status when she was
maybe like two years old. And soeven if we don't have financial
(08:05):
wealth, we still have, you know,the status of our background,
right? The status of our lineagethat can never be taken away
from us, even if we're, youknow, considering applying for
food stamps, you know., So, itwas like, these are the messages
I got just talking about us andnot really talking about in the
context of others, but just theus, right, this is who you are,
(08:29):
right? This is what you shouldbe, like, proud of. This is what
makes you special. So I thinkthat's where it's kind of
interesting, there wasn't a lotof discussion of the other. But
there was more discussion abouthere's who you are and why you
should be proud.
DB Crema (08:42):
So you have small kids who are mixed race. Do they, do
they approach you? How do theyapproach you on this topic?
Katie (08:50):
So they have not approached me. We have from an
early age really just kind oftalked about different human
characteristics as justdifferences, right? I mean,
they're still pretty small. Somy son is not yet seven. And my
daughter is not yet four. Andtheir grandparents are... Well,
(09:15):
certainly their grandfather isthe darkest skinned of our
family. And then their dad andgrandma are kind of a slightly
lighter brown shade. Rthnicbackground wise, his parents
both grew up in Trinidad, ofSoutheast Asian and Indian
(09:35):
origins. So as far as they kindof know, their family members
came from Southeast Asia, inlike the 1830s or so to Trinidad
as indentured servants. So it'sinteresting even in terms of
kind of describing, like, thebackground of my children and my
husband's background, right.
It's not just like, it's not asimple story, just in terms of
(09:57):
like, oh, Why are you Brown?
Right? So how we talk about toour kids, right? Very much just
about well, there's lots ofdifferent ways that people in
our family look right. I have ahard time describing my skin
tone, right? We can talk abouttheir various shades of brown,
but like, I don't really havelike a lot of brown in my tone.
(10:20):
But I'm not like a classic pinkcolor. So like, what am I right?
Because I like white is not anaccurate... I'm also not, you
know, the color of a whitesheet. It's like, peachy, pinky,
something, right? So languagefails on that. But at least for
the children and their dad andtheir grandparents, right, we
can talk about these differentshades of brown. And we started
(10:40):
early on reading, you know,colors about different, you
know, skin tones and hair tonesand those kinds of things. But
we haven't really gone beyondthat yet. Other than with my
older, my older child, my son,starting to talk about how, in
American history, there havebeen some people who think that
(11:03):
based on what you look like inyour family background, some
people were better than others.
And that that was really a badthing to do. We don't want to do
that anymore. So he's old enoughto be learning how to read. And
so part of his homeworkassignment is reading these
little, like a little websitewith little kids, you know,
first grade appropriate readinglevel stories. And one of them
was about Harriet Tubman, right?
(11:26):
Like a very brief Harriet Tubmankid story. And talking about
wars, right? And talking aboutwell, in the US, there was a,
you know, kind of talking aboutAmerican history, like, what is
our country? Okay, well, wefought this war so that we could
be separate from England whoused to kind of be in charge of
the, you know, the people wholived here, and that was called
(11:47):
the Revolutionary War. And thenlater on, there was this other
war that we fought like, withinourselves, because some people
thought that it was okay to ownother human beings. And other
people thought, No, that that'snot okay. anymore. We're not
going to do that anymore, and sothey had a war. And we're glad
that the, you know, people whowon were the ones who said, No,
that's, that's not okay to dothat. So then, right, we read
(12:09):
the little Harriet Tubman book.
And, and at some point, there'sactually a little map and it
shows like what the slave stateswere and what the free states
were. And, I wish, I wish I'dhad a little tape recording
going at the moment cuz it was,I can't, I want people to get
his phrasing. Correct. But itwas so interesting, is he
basically said, something alongthe lines of like, "your people
lost." Like me, being whitepeople. Right? And I had this
(12:34):
little defensive reaction. I waslike, Well, my people lived in
the north, right? Like, myfamily were the good guys who
were fighting on the right side.
Like, Oh, God, it was so funny.
I didn't quite say it that way.
But well, well, you know, likethe people from from our family
who were living there, then theywere fighting on the side to, to
(12:56):
end slavery. He kind of stuckwith his guns a little bit like,
still though, you know, was thethe people who thought, you
know, white people were betterwere the ones who lost. And I
was like, Yeah, you're right.
DB Crema (13:11):
Do you and your husband talk about race, the
experience, your experiencesgrowing up what to do with your
children, how to take themforward?
Katie (13:18):
So my husband, I definitely had more
conversations about this kind ofearlier in our relationship,
right in terms of just gettingto know each other and right,
talking about our experiences.
And his experiences areinteresting, because he, as he's
getting older to me, right, hedefinitely kind of reads more,
more Indian, especially when hehasn't like shaved his head
(13:39):
recently and he's got, you know,he's kind of bald on top and
kind of getting the stubble onthe side. But when he was
younger, sometime in highschool, he started shaving his
head is like his preferredhairstyle. And he to most people
read as black. Most people kindof assume that he was a light
skinned black guy. And so hedescribed numerous experiences
of being pulled over by policefor like, not wearing his
(14:03):
seatbelt. Right, just as anexcuse to kind of suss him out.
One time walking through this...
well, we were walking together,actually. So this is one that I
experienced. I was like, what'shappening? And he had to
translate for me what washappening because we were in
this little, this little enclavein the Bay Area called Clayton,
which is very, very white. Andwe had just been to a
(14:25):
restaurant, we're walking backto our car, and we're walking
past somebody else's car. Andthey like, lock their car as we
were walking by, right, and itdid the flashing and I almost
like jumped out of my skinbecause it startled me. I was
like, What the hell was that?
And like, my husband had toexplain, oh, they were locking
their car because I was walkingpast it and made them feel
nervous. And I was like, lookingaround, like, who the hell just
(14:51):
did that, like, how dare youlike, What the hell's wrong with
these people? I was so...
DB Crema (14:58):
Incensed.
Katie (14:59):
I was so incensed.
Because also it was it was newto me, right? He's had like 30
years of this. And so he's like,Oh, yeah, that's what that is.
Right? He's over the what thefuck period, with that.
DB Crema (15:10):
You can't live your life in the what the fuck
period. You'd get nothing done.
Katie (15:12):
Right! Exactly. So, gosh, we have had conversations about
the importance of givingchildren a strong racial and
ethnic identity, right? Well,non-white children, they need to
kind of know their heritage,feel good about it, feel
connected to it. But then beyondthat, I feel like we haven't
(15:33):
really had many follow upconversations about how to do
that. I'm just thinking about...
So my son is... I don't know. Hehas yet to report that anybody
has questioned him about hisethnicity. So I will be curious
when that becomes a thing. Andjust to see how he responds to
it and, and who he comes to withit. Right? Will he come to his
(15:53):
dad, with it? I don't know. Andven as I say that out loud. I'm
ike, I wonder how equipped heeels to answer that question.
r if he'll be like, I don'tnow, right? Like,
DB Crema (16:07):
Do you think he would understand why someone would ask
him where he's from? Do youthink he would understand why
people are asking that or whatthey're what they're trying to
ask?
Katie (16:17):
Part of me says, like, no, he'd be like, What are you
talking about? That's just aninteresting part of the journey,
yet to come. I mean, partly,I've, like I care about these
things. But I also, I also feelsupremely ignorant and ready to
defer to my husband's expertiseon it. Like, I'm a well
(16:39):
intentioned white person. But Ijust don't know, right? I just
don't know what it's like. Andso I don't know, necessarily the
best thing to do. And I'll giveit my best shot, but, but I
always want to refer to thelived experience of someone who
actually knows. But even then,right, like, my husband doesn't
know what it's like to bebiracial. So...
DB Crema (16:56):
Have you thought about whether or not and how to
approach your kids regarding thenegative experiences they might
experience?
Katie (17:05):
I've talked in general, right, that idea of like, some
people think that some peopleare better than others based on
how they look or what their bestguess is about, you know, what
their family background is. Andthat's wrong. Right. But some
people, some people still do it.
DB Crema (17:24):
I guess the question is, do you warn them that they
might be at the receiving end ofthat?
Katie (17:30):
I have not?
DB Crema (17:31):
Or do you let them figure it out? In the preparing
them for it, you create...It'syou, then, that becomes the
driver of the anxiety,
Katie (17:40):
Right. That's, that's part of it. I don't want to
cause them to worry aboutsomething before it happens. And
not to say like, get ready, it'scoming for you. Right, like, but
to say like, some people dothat. And that idea that, yeah,
just that that way of thinkingis ...is like so whack, that it
(18:02):
will land less. And then also totalk very favorably about what
they look like. Right. So tosay, right, your beautiful brown
skin, your beautiful brown eyes,you know, your beautiful brown
hair, right and to really justbe loving and complimentary of,
of what they look like and whothey are. Hoping that when they
(18:23):
meet, you know, whoever thatunknown asshole might be, that
they feel like, well you'reobviously wrong, because I'm
awesome.
DB Crema (18:43):
Thanks for listening to United States of Race. This
podcast was produced by me, Yourhost DB Crema, and our artwork
is designed by Aly Creative. Ifyou love great storytelling, go
ahead and subscribe to UnitedStates of Race on Spotify, Apple
podcasts, or wherever you getyour podcasts and show us a love
(19:04):
by rating and writing a reviewon Apple podcasts or Podchaser.
You see podchaser.com is theworld's most comprehensive
podcast database. So rating andwriting a review there helps us
get the message out and helpsother listeners discover this
amazing show. And you can alsoshare this podcast with your
friends, and anyone who believesin the power of building
(19:26):
connection through sharingpersonal stories. You can also
follow us on Instagram atunitedstatesofrace. And as
always, if you, Yes, you have acompelling story to share and
would like to be featured on anupcoming episode. Send us a
message atunitedstatesofrace@gmail.com.
(19:47):
Until next time.,
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.