February 19, 2025 • 49 mins
“If the public can predict you, it starts to like you. But the Marchesa didn’t want to be liked.” For the first three decades of the twentieth century, the Marchesa Luisa Casati astounded Europe. Artists such as Man Ray painted, sculpted, and photographed her; writers such as Ezra Pound and Jack Kerouac praised her strange beauty. An Italian woman of means who questioned the traditional gender codes of her time, she dismissed fixed identities as mere constructions. Gathering on the occasion of the 25th anniversary of the first publication of Infinite Variety: The Life and Legend of the Marchesa Casati (the first full-length biography of Luisa Casati, now offered in an updated, ultimate edition), Michael Orlando Yaccarino joins Valerie Steele, Joan Rosasco, and Francesca Granata in conversation about the enigma that is the Marchesa Casati.
Michael Orlando Yaccarino is a writer specializing in international genre film, fashion, music, and unconventional historic figures. Scot D. Ryersson (1960–2024) was an award-winning writer, illustrator, and graphic designer. Michael and Scot collaborated on many projects, are coauthors of Infinite Variety: The Life and Legend of the Marchesa Casati, The Ultimate Edition, and are founders of the Casati Archives. www.marchesacasati.com
Valerie Steele is a fashion historian and director and chief curator of the Museum at the Fashion Institute of Technology. Steele is the author or editor of twenty-five books, including Paris Fashion, Fetish, and Fashion Designers A-Z.
Joan Rosasco taught at Smith College, Columbia University, and New York University, with focus on European art and culture, French literature, and the Belle Époque period. She is author of numerous publications including The Septet.
Francesca Granata is associate professor of fashion studies at Parsons School of Design. Her research focuses on modern and contemporary visual culture, fashion history and theory, and gender and performance studies. Granata is editor of Fashion Criticism and author of Experimental Fashion, and wrote the afterword to Infinite Variety.
Praise for the book:
"Ryersson and Yaccarino are judicious historians of frivolity who capture the tone of a life that was obscenely profligate yet strangely pure."
—The New Yorker
"A meticulously researched biography, Infinite Variety is as much art history as chronicle of personal obsession."
—The New York Times
"Fascinating . . . with or without her cheetahs, the Marchesa Casati’s circus of the self makes her a natural for the new millennium."
—Vanity Fair
Infinite Variety: The Life and Legend of Marchesa Casati, The Ultimate Edition is available from University of Minnesota Press.
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Episode Transcript
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Michael Orlando Yaccarino (00:06):
She gained a certain form of
confidence and fearlessness thatallowed her to express herself
on the deepest level.
Francesca Granata (00:16):
She was born into an upper middle class
Milanese family. The standards,not only of beauty, but of
acceptable femininity, was quiterestricted.
Valerie Steele (00:27):
She goes through a wide variety of very
theatrical fashion that teeterson the edge between couture and
costume.
Joan Rosasco (00:37):
She was an anachronism. She seemed to
belong to the world of lateromanticism.
Michael Orlando Yaccarino: Greetings, everyone. We're here (00:48):
undefined
today to celebrate the twentyfifth anniversary of the
original publication of InfiniteVariety, the life and legend of
the Marchesa Casati, the firstfull length comprehensive
biography of this amazing womanwho lived from 1881 to 1957.
(01:13):
We're going to begin withintroducing ourselves. So I'm
going to start with a briefbiographical overview of my
coauthor, Scott d Ryerson. Scottd Ryerson was the author of
numerous critiques and essays onfilm and literature.
(01:34):
He published interviews withauthor Anne Rice, actress Diana
Rigg, Poirot actor David Suchet,Marple actress Joan Hixson, and
film director Tim Burton amongmany others, as well as an
analysis of the little knownsupernatural fiction of Agatha
Christie. He also penned thenovellas Poisoned Ivy, The
(01:58):
Arsenic Flower, Mad, Bad, andDangerous to Know, and the one
PFR nominated short storySummer's Lease. His poetry
appeared in The New Yorker. Asan artist, got trained at
London's Chelsea School Of ArtAnd Design before entering the
field of motion pictureadvertising. Throughout a thirty
(02:20):
year career, he designed multiaward winning graphics for
numerous Hollywood andinternational films, including
the silence of the lambs, ghost,the doors, the changeling, white
mischief, the hunt for redOctober, witness, another
country, and evil under the sun.
Recipient of two art directorsof London awards, his work
(02:44):
continues to be voted among thetop of several greatest film
posters of all time lists. Hispen and ink illustrations
appeared in publicationsworldwide. Scott created and
exhibited numerous arcana facts,a term for his one of a kind
mixed media assemblage andcollage pieces, which explore
(03:06):
his artistic obsession with thearcane and phantasmagorical. As
for myself, I have written ongenre films and their creators,
unconventional historicalfigures, and the occult. And I
should have noted my name isMichael Orlando Yaccarino.
(03:26):
I'm a film studies graduate fromNew York University's Tisch
School of the Arts, whichincluded an extended internship
at the Film Studies Center ofthe Museum of Modern Art. My
critical writings and interviewshave championed world fringe
cinema for decades. Havingresearched, practiced, taught,
and written about the tarot formany years, I am the author of
(03:50):
Heart Vision, Tarot's InnerPath, which Scott illustrated.
Together, Scott and I are thecoauthors of Infinite Variety,
the life and legend of theMarchesa Casati, and a one woman
play based upon it. The decadentfairy tale, The Princess of Wax,
A Cruel Tale, and the art book,The Marchesa Cassati Portraits
(04:13):
of a Muse.
We also co edited SpectralHaunts and Phantom Lovers, an
audiobook collection of Britishghost stories. Based in The
United States, the CasatiArchives is the world's only
data source and image bankdevoted to preserving the
artistic and cultural legacy ofthe Marchesa Luisa Casati. Scott
(04:37):
and I founded it twenty fiveyears ago in 1999 upon the
original publication of InfiniteVariety. It is the result of
ongoing international researchand collecting. In addition to a
wealth of original materials,books, and ephemera, this ever
growing library contains artworkreproductions and photographs of
(05:01):
and inspired by the MarchesaCasati.
The Casati Archives providesimages and information for
writers, researchers, andpublishers worldwide, as well as
consulting services for theworld's leading museums,
galleries, and privatecollectors. It would be terribly
(05:22):
remiss not to fully recognizeinfinite variety's provenance,
to use an art term. And thismost definitively belongs to
Scott d Ryerson, For it wasScott's original in person
viewing of Augustus John'scelebrated 1919 portrait of
Casati many decades ago, whichfirst ignited a curiosity within
(05:47):
him about this extraordinarybeing, which remained
inexhaustible until his passingearlier this year. Indeed, he
likened this catalytic moment toan actual visceral encounter.
Scott's tireless research iswholly responsible for the
(06:08):
book's proven accuracy andremarkable comprehensiveness.
Indeed, every subsequent editionof the biography around the
world contains research gemsmost currently uncovered at the
time of its publication. Howwonderful then that Scott was
here for Infinite Variety's twothousand twenty four quarter
(06:30):
century milestone that is twentyfive years of our thirty eight
years together as life partners.And now I would like to
introduce our other speakerstoday, and we can begin with
Valerie Steele.
Valerie Steele (06:47):
Hi. I'm Valerie Steele. I'm director and chief
curator of the Museum at theFashion Institute of Technology,
where I've organized more thantwo dozen exhibitions since
1997, including The CorsetFashioning the Body, Gothic Dark
Glamour, and A Queer History ofFashion. I am also the author or
(07:09):
editor of more than 25 books,including Paris Fashion, Fetish,
Fashion, Sex, and Power, andFashion Designers a to z, the
collection of the museum at FIT.My books have been translated
into Chinese, French, German,Italian, Portuguese, Russian,
and soon also Japanese, andSpanish.
(07:33):
I'm also founder and editor ofFashion Theory, the Journal of
Dress, Body, and Culture, whichis the first peer reviewed
scholarly journal in fashionstudies.
Michael Orlando Yaccarino (07:44):
Thank you so much, Valerie. Joan t
Rosasco.
Joan Rosasco (07:49):
I'm Joan Rosasco. My field of interest has always
been, European art and culture,particularly French. I taught
French literature at SmithCollege and, at Columbia
University, some courses also atNYU. My publications have mostly
(08:09):
been on the Belle Epoque, Mybook on was published by Nise in
Paris, and I also have variousother publications. I also have
worked with exhibitionsinternational to organize
traveling art exhibitions andnotably, the jewels of Lalique
(08:35):
in 1998.
And it was, in association withthat project that I encountered
infinite variety. I was readingit on the airplane going to
Paris to be with Madame,Burynhamaire, curator of the
exhibition, and saw thephotograph of Luisa Casati
(08:58):
wearing the lolly crown that hehad, created for Sarah Bernhardt
in Theodora. So for me, that wasthe way into the subject. That's
when I met Scott and Michael,and we've been friends ever
since.
Michael Orlando Yaccarino (09:15):
Thank you so much, Joan. And finally,
Francesca Granato.
Francesca Granata (09:21):
Hello, everyone. My name is Francesca
Granata, and I'm associateprofessor of fashion studies in
the School of Art and DesignHistory and Theory at Parsons
School of Design. My research,centers on modern contemporary
visual and material culture witha focus on fashion history and
theory, gender and performancestudies. I have written several
(09:43):
publication, that look at theintersection of fashion and
performance, experimentalfashion, performance art, and
the grotesque body. My book fromBloomsbury two thousand
seventeen addresses theseissues, and I've also edited two
books.
One is fashion criticism andanthology, also from Bloomsbury,
(10:03):
And, the other one is fashionprojects, fifteen years of
fashion dialogue, which is thecollected work from a journal,
nonprofit journal I ran from02/2005 to 02/2025, called
fashion projects.
Michael Orlando Yaccarino (10:18):
And, Francesca, we should mention, of
course, that you are responsiblefor the lovely and insightful
new forward, to infinite varietythat have been added in the
University of Minnesota Press'stwo thousand seventeen
republication of the biography.So you are represented in the
(10:40):
the book itself, as well. Thankyou, everyone. And now as
perhaps a way into our fabuloussubject, I'm going to read an
excerpted version of InfiniteVariety's introduction. And
(11:02):
after Joan's flawless Frenchterms, I'm I'm going to ask your
forgiveness if I butcher a fewthat are included in this
introduction as I read.
I want to be a living work ofart. These are among the only
(11:22):
words spoken by the MarchesaOlisa Casati that have been
documented. For the first threedecades of the twentieth
century, the Marchesa Casati wasthe brightest star of the
European hautemand. Artistspainted and sculpted her, poets
praised her strange beauty, andcouturiers fought for her
(11:44):
patronage. She'd even become thenotorious fictional heroine of
more than one author's risque,Romana Clay.
She journeyed wherever her fancytook her, Venice, Rome, Paris,
Capri, collecting palaces and amenagerie of exotic animals, and
(12:05):
she spent fortunes on lavishparties. She astonished Gabriela
Dinunzio, fascinated SergeiDiaghilev, frightened Artur
Rubinstein, and intimidated T.E. Lawrence. Graham Bakst, Paul
Poiret, Mariano Fortuny, andErte dressed her.
(12:26):
She dined with Picasso, hostedparties where Voslaw Nijinsky
invited Isadora Duncan to dance,became the Italian futurist
muse, and helped conjure up anelaborate marionette show with
music by Maurice Ravel.Everywhere she went, she set
trends, inspired genius, andastounded even the most jaded
(12:50):
members of the aristocracy.Louisa Kisaki's egocentrism is
both undeniable and linkedinextricably to historical
significance. It wasspecifically the Marchesa's
mania for continualtransformation that propelled
her quest for geniuses todocument this lifelong process.
(13:14):
Unlike the typical societypatron, Casati was fearless in
becoming an eager accomplice tothe talent she supported.
For them, she became a tangibleand effective promotion of their
radical artistic experiments. Itseems a curious injustice then
(13:35):
that one of the most portrayedwomen in history has been so
little known. Even thoughnumerous references to Casati
appear in many art, history, andfashion books, no comprehensive
full length biography of her hasbeen previously published. Such
is history's fate for a lifethat can be too easily dismissed
(13:58):
as idle, hedonistic, andthoroughly excessive. Our
purpose in writing the biographyis to accurately document for
the first time both the life andlegend of this singular woman.
In presenting this, our hope isto ensure the Marchesa Casati's
significant place and theartistic and cultural heritage
(14:23):
of the twentieth century and itscontinuation into this
millennium. So we have a widevariety of topics to talk about
because Kasafi's life touched somany areas of art, culture,
(14:44):
history, more specifically,women's studies, fashion and art
and their transformativeabilities for both the the
viewer and in the pace offashion, and the wearer. And we
do have a you know, today,amongst our speakers, of course,
we you know, all three of themhave a tremendous, and in-depth
(15:09):
knowledge of, costume, fashion,and how they play very important
roles in the cultural landscapeof the time in which the times
in which we are talking andbeyond that. You know, Casati
lived a a relatively long life,which which spanned from the
(15:34):
Belle Epoque through to a goodportion of the twentieth
century. And for someone toremain so remarkably vital and
inspirational is is quite rare.
What I thought we might beginwith as a as a point of
departure, maybe we could returnto Joan's comment about seeing
(15:59):
that image of the MarchesaCasati mimicking, if you will,
of some famous theatrical stillphotographs of Sarah Bernhardt
as Empress Theodora. Why don'tyou speak for a moment, Joan,
about that?
Joan Rosasco (16:16):
Yes. I was so surprised to see the picture of
Sarah that Casati was clearlybasing, her costume for a ball
in '24. It was a costume ball inRome, and she was dressed as
Theodora as played by SarahBernhardt. And I thought
(16:36):
Bernhardt then was the mostfamous woman in the world, the
most photographed, the mostpainted. If you saw the large
exhibition at the Petit Palaisrecently, you saw that Sarah
Bernhardt really was famouseverywhere.
Her most famous role was asTheodora, the Byzantine empress.
(16:58):
So I found this picture in thebook, and I noticed that it was
the crown that Lalique haddesigned for Sarah, but it
wasn't known if this crown hadever been made because there was
no evidence for it in the many,many photographs of Sarah in the
role of Theodora. She preferreda, crown that was based on the
(17:24):
mosaic Ravenna. Looks more likea Kokosnik, and that crown still
exists. It's in the MuseeGalliera.
But this one was only the littlepainting by Lalique that served
as the cover of the program in1902. So it was possible that
this was actually the crown,that Sarah didn't wear and was
(17:48):
only, in the painting and thepainting that clearly Casati was
posing as.
Michael Orlando Yaccarino (17:55):
Thank you. And what what I wanna take
away from what you were saying,Joan, when you mentioned that at
the time, you know, SarahBernhardt was a world renowned
superstar. So when we seeperhaps the Marchesa finding a
kinship in her and reallyslavishly recreating that image,
(18:20):
I think that that may show in away her at the start of her
transformative process ofperhaps looking outward and
reaching out towards what waspopular at that time and making
it her own. But as she continuedto go on and evolve, I think
(18:40):
that she then gained a certainform of confidence and
fearlessness that allowed her tonot so much mimic others, but to
express herself on the deepestlevel. And I'd like to use that
as perhaps, Franchesca, youknow, you have written so much
(19:02):
about unconventional beauty,even bordering on the grotesque.
And I don't wanna jump too farahead, but if we do go through
the Marchesa's visual aestheticover the course of years and
decades, it does become thatmuch more idiosyncratic, that
(19:25):
much more strangely beautiful,and that much more uniquely her
own. The Marchesa started outher life as a very awkward
adolescent, a not very confidentabout her own looks and her
fitting into the conventions ofthe time. And that as she gained
(19:47):
agency, that changed.
Francesca Granata (19:50):
Yes. It's interesting. So she was born
into an upper middle class, aMilanese family. And so the
standards, not only of beauty,but of acceptable femininity for
that demographics was quiterestrictive. And she was not
traditionally beautiful for thecenters of the time.
And I think she eventually, asyou said, started to, kind of
(20:14):
cultivate her own persona, herown look. I mean, when I think
of Casati in contemporary time,I almost think of her as, like,
a, club figure or somebody whois really just really into
performing the self in a very atleast incredible, also very
creative, way. I mean, she washer own work of art as your book
(20:35):
makes clear. As a a work evolvedand also participating all
these, avant garde spaces inEurope, I think she kind of
became more and more daring in,her looks or makeup or clothing.
She went from working withcouturier to going to costume
design because the couturier'swork was not, fantastical
(20:57):
enough.
And so, yes, I think sheembraced almost this kind of
ugly beauty that is questioningwhat is really beautiful, what
was really beautiful in, Europeat the time. I think it was
probably also a reaction to theway she was perceived earlier on
as not really fitting in.
Michael Orlando Yaccarino: Valerie, maybe this would be an (21:16):
undefined
opportunity for our listeners totry to put her shock value in
the context historically of whatwas happening in fashion at at
that time.
Valerie Steele (21:33):
Right. Well, as you look at her life, she goes
through a wide variety offantastic fashions. And as
Franchesca said, she starts outwith couture, avant garde
couture, you know, Fortuny,Poire, and increasingly moves
towards costume, whether thecostumes, minaret, or box
(21:53):
costumes, very much sort ofballet rooste type costuming.
All of which are pushing at theedge of the avant garde. So it's
a lot of fantasy imagery,orientalist fantasies about
women in the harem andbloodthirsty sultans and the way
she wrapped snakes aroundherself or walked with leopards.
(22:17):
The stories that she wouldappear in Saint Mark's Plaza
dressed in a cape, leading aleopard on a leash, and under
the cape would be naked. All ofthese are incredibly
exhibitionistic and exaggeratedversions of self fashioning.
Actually, my favorite thingthough that I rediscovered
(22:37):
rereading the book again lastnight was what you and Scott
described as one of her morerestrained fashion, style when
she went out on the street oneday wearing a black velvet V and
A dress, a tiger skin top hat,and one black eye patch. And I
just thought, oh my god. That'sso fabulous.
(22:58):
Galliano would have died for alook like that. That's so
amazing. It's so perfect interms of contemporary avant
garde theatrical fashion. And Ithink you can put her in that
whole history from Poiret toGalliano and McQueen, a very
theatrical fashion that teeterson the edge between couture and
(23:20):
costume. You know, we'llsometimes say as a criticism.
Oh, that's too costumey. Butit's like Francesca saying she's
like a club kid. She's likesomebody who's created these
amazing look through costume,makeup, hair, all of which are
exaggerated and fantastical,almost grotesque, teetering on
(23:41):
the edge of of decadence andgrotesque green.
Michael Orlando Yaccarino (23:45):
Thank you. And, Joan, how do you feel
this would translate into moreof a societal because of, you
know, the the the milieu inwhich she traveled, everyone
from budding artists topolitical figures to nobility.
(24:06):
Can you give us, Joan, just asense of that type of shock and
awe would be experienced by aFrench salon, let's say, or
someone that came out of ofProust's circle?
Joan Rosasco (24:19):
Well, she didn't have a conventional salon. There
were so many society women. Manypeople in Venice that she she
had a plot, so did the Curtisfamily at Palazzo Barbaro,
Isabella Stewart Gardner wasthere. The process de Polignac
at the Palazzo Polignac, and soon. And these women, or Madame
(24:42):
Labon Pluvinell at Cadario, theyhad salon.
They attracted writers, artists.There was conversation. She was
so different. She hadentertainments, but, these
parties were mostly a kind ofsetting for her own exhibition.
(25:03):
Her costumes, her animals, thewhite peacocks.
And as you said in thebeginning, I think her great
attitude was that she didn'tspeak, that there was no
message, that she remained anenigma, and still does. She
seemed to put on these variousmasks and disguises. But what
(25:25):
was behind the mask? It was amystery. So she was very unlike
the other social leaders, and wedon't see her, very often, or at
least I didn't see evidence ofher in other people's salons.
You you don't find her as aguest at someone's luncheon or
dinner party. When you readpeople's diaries, she they talk
(25:47):
about her, but she's, more aphenomenon. She she was unique
in that sense.
Michael Orlando Yaccarino: Absolutely. And, you know, when (25:54):
undefined
Scott and I were writing thebook, we wanted to present a
portrait that showed as much aswe could this extraordinary
woman in all her shades andcolors, light through dark. We
really had to make a decisionabout not wanting to fall into
(26:18):
pop psychologizing. I mean, oneof the questions, of course,
that a reader of the book wouldmake would why did she do what
she did? What was hermotivation?
What was what did she thinkabout? What should you know, and
there's there's very, verylittle that survives that gives
(26:38):
anything more than a fairlysuperficial insight. We can make
suppositions. We could make,suggestions of what we thought,
but we don't know definitively.As she even during her younger
years, but especially as shebecame older, part of her
(26:59):
ensemble was a veil.
And we tried to keep that aswell with the book, to keep her
as an enticement, as a mystery.But maybe from each of your
perspectives, we could speakjust a moment on what perhaps
your own insights are on whyCasati did what she did, or
(27:22):
perhaps what was her motivation.And Francesca, with your work on
unconventional beauty and thebizarre and the grotesque, and
when you have focused on certainfigures within and outside of
the of the the fashion world,have you found some kind of
(27:43):
connectivity between some ofthose figures with the Marchesa?
So for example, if I'm recallingcorrectly, Earte once comment
that the Marchesa was someonethat he found extremely shy,
which, of course, would seem atodds with egocentrism and
exhibitionism. But then again,how did that such elaborateness
(28:07):
perhaps function psychologicallyspeaking for someone who was at
core, someone who's very privateand shined?
Have you seen that with otherperpetrators of fashion crimes?
Francesca Granata (28:22):
I'm not sure if I can make that connection at
the top of my head. I think it'sinteresting how they use all
these, disguise for the self andmasks. Right? It reminds me of,
the carnival, and it's kind ofmakes sense that one of the form
that she used to express herselfwas the masked ball. To me, that
is this idea of wanting to notkind of have this fixed
(28:45):
identity, but, like, continuallytransforming yourself and
seeking the the edge ofdifferent identities.
I think it's what's I foundreally interesting about the
Marquise Casati is that sheforeshadowed a lot of play with
gender that we have seen in thepostwar years much more coming
(29:06):
to the fore and, definitely inthe last twenty, thirty years.
And, I keep returning to clubculture and these figures like
Lee Bowery, somebody that, likea Kasati, makes this kind of
confusion confuses and questionsthe difference between reality
and make believe. Right? Whereis the reality of Kasati when
she's always in costume? She'salways performing.
(29:28):
So she's almost questioning theidea of an authentic self that
exists from which everythingelse comes out of. So I think
that's what's, to me, was veryfascinating about Damarcheita
Casati and seemed really aheadof her time also in in the way
that she she really lived herlife between categories.
Michael Orlando Yaccarino (29:50):
And, Valerie, in the great gallery of
significant fashion figures, therule breakers, the iconoclasts.
Do you see an affinity betweenher and any of them in
particular, and how might shediffer from them? What were some
(30:11):
of their similarities, and whatmade her uniquely herself?
Valerie Steele (30:16):
Well, what strikes me about her very
powerfully is her exhibitionism.Thinking about it, it reminded
me quite a bit of the Comtessedu Glafout, Montesquieu's,
cousin, who also was someone whowanted to be sort of gazed at by
a multitude of people and tosort of drink in their gaze. And
(30:38):
that made her feel alive in asense and and energized through
that vision of them looking ather. And it seems to me that
with both of them, there was notthe kind of idea of male
exhibitionism, like, look at mypenis or look at my nakedness,
but rather a more almostinfantile, look at me, pay
(31:00):
attention to me, so a demand sothat she wouldn't disappear,
that people would see her andshe would feel reassured and
happy by that gaze as though thegaze kept her alive. Almost like
Tinkerbell, you know, and PeterPan is like, believe in me, and
then you'll keep me alive.
And so something veryexistential and desperate about
(31:22):
that exhibitionism. But also asFranchesca said, the fact that
look at me because I'mconstantly changing. My look is
constantly changing. Alsoimplies a kind of deliberate
artifice or a veil that shekeeps it's like, you'll have to
keep looking at me because I'mconstantly changing, and I'm I'm
(31:43):
always new, and I'm alwaysdifferent. So you'll never stop
being fascinated with me.
So there's also a kind ofstrange artificial neophilia
there, which is reallyinteresting that she wants to be
a kind of an artificial womanwho's transformed all the time
that with the descript a kind ofa changeable, renewable second
(32:05):
skin all the time.
Joan Rosasco (32:07):
And she belongs to a lineage, I think, that extends
from Castiglione to RobertoMontesquiut to Cassati. And it's
interesting that she comes atthe last of the line, but
they're all fascinated by theirown images, conspire to create
images of themselves.Castiglione with Pearson, the
(32:28):
photographer, over, I think,four decades, just documenting
her own looks and curating herown photoshoots, and then
Roberta Montesquieu doing thesame thing. I was going to say
before that there's aninteresting photograph of him
when he was only 19. He was,asked to play the part of
(32:52):
Zanetto in a play called LePassant in a drawing room,
performance.
And so that was SarahBernhardt's first big
breakthrough role in, I think,1864. So now, much later, he
went to Sarah to have her coachhim in the part. And in the
(33:12):
photograph, he is sitting onsome steps wearing the costume
of Zanetto, supposed to be arenaissance minstrel. And she's
sitting next to him, and she'swearing the costume. And they
look like mirror images.
And I think this, fascinationwith your double, with the
(33:32):
simulacra, with, of course,later the wax figures and so on.
But, and Montesquieu kept allthese photographs of himself
from then on in albums that hecalled ego imago, image of
myself. And then you think, am Ithe image? Perhaps that just
(33:53):
means that I am an image or I amthe appearance. And I think he
then collected the photographsof Castiglione and as many
relics of her as he could findand had a little chapel devoted
to her.
And after Casati bought hishouse after he died, she also
(34:15):
had these same photographs. Shetoo had a collection. She then
had a ball in which sheimpersonated Castiglione. It's
really a lineage. And thesethree personalities that were so
similar in their self adulationand their desire to be
represented.
(34:35):
Montesquieu also commissionedmany portraits of himself. He
was painted by Boldini as shewas. He was depicted by Troubad
Scoy as, she was. And, then shemoves into his house. Their
psychologies are interesting toconsider together.
Valerie Steele (34:54):
Yes. I think that that genealogy and that
idea of the doubling that sheidentified with Castiglione and
Montesquieu's doing some of thesame thing is so fascinating.
And your reference to the waxfigures, that she had the wax
figure of herself dressed in thesame clothes, it's really an
amazing fascination, like anartificial double. Again, the
(35:16):
kind of reassurance, I'm here.I'm here in spades.
I'm here in duplicate.
Francesca Granata (35:21):
Yep. There is an element of our work. I think
it also relates to this idea of,like, being in a constant
carnival, right, where the rulesand norms are lifted and when
you're always in costume. But italso made our work ephemeral.
Right?
And that's part of the reasonthese ephemerality is part of
the reason, I think, where shewas not as remember as she could
(35:45):
have been until the biographyand the subsequent also
documentation of her work. Ithink it's it has to do with
this ephemeral quality, not onlyof fashion, which was one of her
means of expression, but alsothere was a real interest in
things that that were finite.Right? She would put months and
(36:06):
months into creating a maskball, which in and of itself is
an ephemeral kind ofperformative space that ends and
is poorly documented.
Valerie Steele (36:16):
Of course, that's true of fashion in
general. So this love of selffashioning is the kind of the
constant repetition of ephemeralforms. I love too finding out
that she commissioned a doll ofherself from Lottie Prisel,
which is so amazing. That was asort of a semiannude, quasi
religious, baroque doll. Thatdoll still exist?
Michael Orlando Yaccarino (36:41):
We were in touch with a private
collector who had, many, many,many of them. And,
unfortunately, that personpassed, and we were in touch
with, an author who was workingon documenting Fritzl's life and
had been behind an exhibitionof, on her, I believe, in
(37:03):
Germany. I'm not sure thewhereabouts of those items now.
I mean, of Fritzl's collectionand and the majority of Casati.
I mean, we have to remember thatwhen the Marchesa stars started
misaligning during her latteryears in Paris, which ended up
in bankruptcy and enforcedauction of her home, so much of
(37:26):
her property was dispersed.
So there really is not atremendous that exists. I mean,
it is a tragedy that we don'thave a few costumes. I mean,
there are little odds and endshere and there around the world,
but there's very, very littlethat exists in that way. I I
(37:47):
think it might help to just takea moment for maybe each of us to
comment of how the Marchesatranscended the time period.
Some of these great art patrons,society figures are very, very
much more often than not linkedand bounded by the time period
(38:08):
in which they lived.
This is not true of theMarchesa. I will begin this by
saying, well, it's a reflectionof the nonstop activity and
curiosity of her mind, and thatshe was not only reaching out to
being represented by such, atthe time, recognized geniuses in
(38:31):
the art world or societypainters such as Baldini. But
she was also very muchinterested in seeking out new
talent. So we have, you know,the stories of her meeting with
Man Ray, you know, this Americanphotographer relocated to Paris
at the beginning of his careerwho was very little known. The
(38:52):
results of their photographicconnection resulted in his
getting many, many jobs withwith high profile fashion
magazines and and helping tolaunch his career, in a fuller
way.
So she was unhesitant to seekout the unconventional. She
didn't wanna rely just on whather peers might think was
(39:16):
desirable. So, Franchesca, weknow you have to end in a few
moments. If you don't mindmaking a few final comments on
what was uniquely, perhaps fromyour work, bizarrely wonderful
and strangely beautiful in termsof her aesthetic and perspective
and point of view that hasallowed her to transcend her
(39:39):
times? And here we are now morethan a hundred years after her
heyday, and we're here talkingabout it.
Francesca Granata (39:47):
Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of it is that, she
was questioning traditionalfemininity. Right? Traditional
feminine roles of our time. Imean, she was certainly
scandalous for a Milanese upperbourgeois society where she came
from, and she was, I mean, itsounds like she was a borderline
(40:07):
scandalous for the avant garde.
So I think also a kind ofthreatening beauty, so to speak,
that we we have seen, incontemporary fashion through
McQueen, especially is somethingthat's remained relevant. So
this this going against,somewhat, domesticated or, yes,
(40:29):
more reassuring beauty, butalso, feminine roles is what I
think kept her in herinteresting and kept her
relevant to into the twentyfirst century.
Michael Orlando Yaccarino: Wonderful. Thank you so much for (40:41):
undefined
your insights, Francesca. And,Joan, you've written and spoken
about some of the great femininebeauties and female icons of the
Belle Epoque, and even how therewas a societal shift as the
motion picture became popular,which was a massive industry in
(41:02):
in Italy, for which, of course,D'Annunzio, one of the Marches'
most illustrious lovers andcomrades, the great Italian,
poet, well, war hero and societyfigure, worked for the silent
film industry. In viewing theseamazing women of that time
period who have not really theythey they're remarkable, but
(41:27):
they haven't broken out of thattime period. Do you have any
thoughts on what allowed theMarchesa to do that, or what
what resulted in that?
Was it that she was an outcast,or there was a time she no
longer really cared about that?
Joan Rosasco (41:44):
Well, I I feel that she was actually, an
anachronism. She seemed tobelong to the world of late
romanticism, the world thatMario Protz describes in the
romantic agony or la carne lamorte e diavolo. All these
themes of, the fatal woman, the,Medusa, the macabre, the occult,
(42:13):
she personified with her dark,eyes, ringed with black coal.
And she, I think, was then amodel later for the silent film
stars. I'm thinking, of,Musidora in Les Vampir by
(42:34):
Folliard.
That was, in, I think, about1915, '19 '16. These vamps were
now becoming sort of popularculture, whereas in the eighteen
eighties and nineties, that hadbeen part of symbolism, that
they'd been taken veryseriously. These were, Salome. I
(42:56):
think of, Oscar Wilde and theBeardsley image of Salome. She's
a terrifying apparition.
And I think Casati was also fromvery much in that category until
the war. And then after the war,there was such a shift in
culture, and she really becameanachronistic. You don't see her
(43:20):
as part of the jazz age. And,you know, she left left Venice
in 1923. Cole Porter rented theCara Sonico in 1925, brought his
American black jazz band, had afloating nightclub on the
canals.
I mean, it was a totallydifferent culture that she
(43:43):
really was no longer, in syncwith. So I think she was the
last gasp of romanticism, andshe was a beautiful late flower
of that movement.
Michael Orlando Yaccarino (43:57):
Thank you so much, John. That's
extremely in insightful and thatshe was, as you mentioned, a
throwback to an earlier ideal.And, you know, I think what
makes it even more fascinatingnow is that is that that is
absolutely valid. And thenbecause of circumstances in the
and and what happened in herlife as she lost her fortunes
(44:19):
and her desire to create andrecreate herself was never
diminished. So during her finaldecades in London, where she had
to rely upon maybe pickingaround scraps of fabric and
pinning things on herself, shewas very Vivienne Westwood and
very punk and veryinadvertently, she's been called
(44:41):
in the press, in connection withour work, you know, the
grandmother of God.
So so, Valerie, I'd I'd like to,perhaps as we wrap up, for you
to bring us up to date in howthe Marchesa has been
rediscovered by new generations,how she's become a figurehead in
(45:03):
the goth community. And one ofthe most satisfying results of
our work on, the Marchesa isthat a year does not go by when
18, 19, 20 year old students,fashion students from around the
world are always reaching out tous, breathlessly proclaiming
(45:25):
their discovery of the Marchesaand how she is their icon.
That's remarkable.
Valerie Steele (45:31):
Well, when I worked on my show, Gothic Dark
Glamour, you know, I had anendless dream of black clad
young people who were also awareof the history of literature and
art and film and who reallyidentified with all of these
historical figures. It wasreally fascinating. I mean, you
see how the history of thesymbolist, you know, idea of the
(45:54):
femme fatale or even going backfurther to the romantic imagery
of, you know, the Medusa or, youknow, someone sitting there like
a dangerous female. And this ledup to be popularized with Theda
Bara and vamps and then vampiresand the sexiness of vampires. It
was strange because that showwhich so appealed to young
(46:17):
people and especially, you know,sort of English people and
American young people.
But I remember I had a group ofItalian fashion executives that
I was showing through Gothic,And they were sort of horrified.
Like, what is this? Some kind ofHalloween show? And then I said,
but look. This is Galliano's.
He's inspired by the MarchesaCasati. And they went, oh, La
(46:40):
Decadenza. And finally, they hadsomething, you know, that they
could identify with. But in inthese ways, you see young people
in the golf community lookingback and pulling her out as an
icon. I think that it's thatkind of what Walter Benjamin
talked about, the tiger's leapinto the past where if there's
(47:00):
something that we desire now infashion, we can find it in the
past and bring it back and bringit back to life.
And so she continues to be aniconic figure both for fashion
designers and for young people,subcultural people.
Michael Orlando Yaccarino: Wonderful. Well, thank you so (47:17):
undefined
much. I really feel that we'vegained a few valuable insights
with all of your amazingcontributions to this. I wanna
thank each of you for yoursharing your thoughts and ideas,
which have all expanded the darkand amazing and beautiful
(47:37):
universe of the Marchesa Casati.And I will just end with the
little tagline that Scott and Idevised twenty five years ago
with the very first publicationof the first edition of the
book, and the University ofMinnesota Press, I might add,
released a paperback versionthat was revised in 02/2004.
(48:03):
And then more recently, theyshowed such support of the
ongoing interest in infinitevariety that they did something
rather remarkable, which theyrereleased the book, which they
had only, up until that point,printed in paperback as a new
hardcover. And they agreed toall of our revisions. So, that
(48:27):
02/2017 University of MinnesotaPress is the most up to date
version of the book with so manylittle treats and treasures in
it in the English language. ButI wanted to just end with a
little tagline that we would,share with anyone interested in
the Marchesa, in reading any ofthe biographical works that we
(48:48):
have done, and each of theparticipants' wonderful work is
prepare to be astonished.
She gained a certain form of
confidence and fearlessness thatallowed her to express herself
on the deepest level.
Francesca Granata (00:16):
She was born into an upper middle class
Milanese family. The standards,not only of beauty, but of
acceptable femininity, was quiterestricted.
Valerie Steele (00:27):
She goes through a wide variety of very
theatrical fashion that teeterson the edge between couture and
costume.
Joan Rosasco (00:37):
She was an anachronism. She seemed to
belong to the world of lateromanticism.
Michael Orlando Yaccarino: Greetings, everyone. We're here (00:48):
undefined
today to celebrate the twentyfifth anniversary of the
original publication of InfiniteVariety, the life and legend of
the Marchesa Casati, the firstfull length comprehensive
biography of this amazing womanwho lived from 1881 to 1957.
(01:13):
We're going to begin withintroducing ourselves. So I'm
going to start with a briefbiographical overview of my
coauthor, Scott d Ryerson. Scottd Ryerson was the author of
numerous critiques and essays onfilm and literature.
(01:34):
He published interviews withauthor Anne Rice, actress Diana
Rigg, Poirot actor David Suchet,Marple actress Joan Hixson, and
film director Tim Burton amongmany others, as well as an
analysis of the little knownsupernatural fiction of Agatha
Christie. He also penned thenovellas Poisoned Ivy, The
(01:58):
Arsenic Flower, Mad, Bad, andDangerous to Know, and the one
PFR nominated short storySummer's Lease. His poetry
appeared in The New Yorker. Asan artist, got trained at
London's Chelsea School Of ArtAnd Design before entering the
field of motion pictureadvertising. Throughout a thirty
(02:20):
year career, he designed multiaward winning graphics for
numerous Hollywood andinternational films, including
the silence of the lambs, ghost,the doors, the changeling, white
mischief, the hunt for redOctober, witness, another
country, and evil under the sun.
Recipient of two art directorsof London awards, his work
(02:44):
continues to be voted among thetop of several greatest film
posters of all time lists. Hispen and ink illustrations
appeared in publicationsworldwide. Scott created and
exhibited numerous arcana facts,a term for his one of a kind
mixed media assemblage andcollage pieces, which explore
(03:06):
his artistic obsession with thearcane and phantasmagorical. As
for myself, I have written ongenre films and their creators,
unconventional historicalfigures, and the occult. And I
should have noted my name isMichael Orlando Yaccarino.
(03:26):
I'm a film studies graduate fromNew York University's Tisch
School of the Arts, whichincluded an extended internship
at the Film Studies Center ofthe Museum of Modern Art. My
critical writings and interviewshave championed world fringe
cinema for decades. Havingresearched, practiced, taught,
and written about the tarot formany years, I am the author of
(03:50):
Heart Vision, Tarot's InnerPath, which Scott illustrated.
Together, Scott and I are thecoauthors of Infinite Variety,
the life and legend of theMarchesa Casati, and a one woman
play based upon it. The decadentfairy tale, The Princess of Wax,
A Cruel Tale, and the art book,The Marchesa Cassati Portraits
(04:13):
of a Muse.
We also co edited SpectralHaunts and Phantom Lovers, an
audiobook collection of Britishghost stories. Based in The
United States, the CasatiArchives is the world's only
data source and image bankdevoted to preserving the
artistic and cultural legacy ofthe Marchesa Luisa Casati. Scott
(04:37):
and I founded it twenty fiveyears ago in 1999 upon the
original publication of InfiniteVariety. It is the result of
ongoing international researchand collecting. In addition to a
wealth of original materials,books, and ephemera, this ever
growing library contains artworkreproductions and photographs of
(05:01):
and inspired by the MarchesaCasati.
The Casati Archives providesimages and information for
writers, researchers, andpublishers worldwide, as well as
consulting services for theworld's leading museums,
galleries, and privatecollectors. It would be terribly
(05:22):
remiss not to fully recognizeinfinite variety's provenance,
to use an art term. And thismost definitively belongs to
Scott d Ryerson, For it wasScott's original in person
viewing of Augustus John'scelebrated 1919 portrait of
Casati many decades ago, whichfirst ignited a curiosity within
(05:47):
him about this extraordinarybeing, which remained
inexhaustible until his passingearlier this year. Indeed, he
likened this catalytic moment toan actual visceral encounter.
Scott's tireless research iswholly responsible for the
(06:08):
book's proven accuracy andremarkable comprehensiveness.
Indeed, every subsequent editionof the biography around the
world contains research gemsmost currently uncovered at the
time of its publication. Howwonderful then that Scott was
here for Infinite Variety's twothousand twenty four quarter
(06:30):
century milestone that is twentyfive years of our thirty eight
years together as life partners.And now I would like to
introduce our other speakerstoday, and we can begin with
Valerie Steele.
Valerie Steele (06:47):
Hi. I'm Valerie Steele. I'm director and chief
curator of the Museum at theFashion Institute of Technology,
where I've organized more thantwo dozen exhibitions since
1997, including The CorsetFashioning the Body, Gothic Dark
Glamour, and A Queer History ofFashion. I am also the author or
(07:09):
editor of more than 25 books,including Paris Fashion, Fetish,
Fashion, Sex, and Power, andFashion Designers a to z, the
collection of the museum at FIT.My books have been translated
into Chinese, French, German,Italian, Portuguese, Russian,
and soon also Japanese, andSpanish.
(07:33):
I'm also founder and editor ofFashion Theory, the Journal of
Dress, Body, and Culture, whichis the first peer reviewed
scholarly journal in fashionstudies.
Michael Orlando Yaccarino (07:44):
Thank you so much, Valerie. Joan t
Rosasco.
Joan Rosasco (07:49):
I'm Joan Rosasco. My field of interest has always
been, European art and culture,particularly French. I taught
French literature at SmithCollege and, at Columbia
University, some courses also atNYU. My publications have mostly
(08:09):
been on the Belle Epoque, Mybook on was published by Nise in
Paris, and I also have variousother publications. I also have
worked with exhibitionsinternational to organize
traveling art exhibitions andnotably, the jewels of Lalique
(08:35):
in 1998.
And it was, in association withthat project that I encountered
infinite variety. I was readingit on the airplane going to
Paris to be with Madame,Burynhamaire, curator of the
exhibition, and saw thephotograph of Luisa Casati
(08:58):
wearing the lolly crown that hehad, created for Sarah Bernhardt
in Theodora. So for me, that wasthe way into the subject. That's
when I met Scott and Michael,and we've been friends ever
since.
Michael Orlando Yaccarino (09:15):
Thank you so much, Joan. And finally,
Francesca Granato.
Francesca Granata (09:21):
Hello, everyone. My name is Francesca
Granata, and I'm associateprofessor of fashion studies in
the School of Art and DesignHistory and Theory at Parsons
School of Design. My research,centers on modern contemporary
visual and material culture witha focus on fashion history and
theory, gender and performancestudies. I have written several
(09:43):
publication, that look at theintersection of fashion and
performance, experimentalfashion, performance art, and
the grotesque body. My book fromBloomsbury two thousand
seventeen addresses theseissues, and I've also edited two
books.
One is fashion criticism andanthology, also from Bloomsbury,
(10:03):
And, the other one is fashionprojects, fifteen years of
fashion dialogue, which is thecollected work from a journal,
nonprofit journal I ran from02/2005 to 02/2025, called
fashion projects.
Michael Orlando Yaccarino (10:18):
And, Francesca, we should mention, of
course, that you are responsiblefor the lovely and insightful
new forward, to infinite varietythat have been added in the
University of Minnesota Press'stwo thousand seventeen
republication of the biography.So you are represented in the
(10:40):
the book itself, as well. Thankyou, everyone. And now as
perhaps a way into our fabuloussubject, I'm going to read an
excerpted version of InfiniteVariety's introduction. And
(11:02):
after Joan's flawless Frenchterms, I'm I'm going to ask your
forgiveness if I butcher a fewthat are included in this
introduction as I read.
I want to be a living work ofart. These are among the only
(11:22):
words spoken by the MarchesaOlisa Casati that have been
documented. For the first threedecades of the twentieth
century, the Marchesa Casati wasthe brightest star of the
European hautemand. Artistspainted and sculpted her, poets
praised her strange beauty, andcouturiers fought for her
(11:44):
patronage. She'd even become thenotorious fictional heroine of
more than one author's risque,Romana Clay.
She journeyed wherever her fancytook her, Venice, Rome, Paris,
Capri, collecting palaces and amenagerie of exotic animals, and
(12:05):
she spent fortunes on lavishparties. She astonished Gabriela
Dinunzio, fascinated SergeiDiaghilev, frightened Artur
Rubinstein, and intimidated T.E. Lawrence. Graham Bakst, Paul
Poiret, Mariano Fortuny, andErte dressed her.
(12:26):
She dined with Picasso, hostedparties where Voslaw Nijinsky
invited Isadora Duncan to dance,became the Italian futurist
muse, and helped conjure up anelaborate marionette show with
music by Maurice Ravel.Everywhere she went, she set
trends, inspired genius, andastounded even the most jaded
(12:50):
members of the aristocracy.Louisa Kisaki's egocentrism is
both undeniable and linkedinextricably to historical
significance. It wasspecifically the Marchesa's
mania for continualtransformation that propelled
her quest for geniuses todocument this lifelong process.
(13:14):
Unlike the typical societypatron, Casati was fearless in
becoming an eager accomplice tothe talent she supported.
For them, she became a tangibleand effective promotion of their
radical artistic experiments. Itseems a curious injustice then
(13:35):
that one of the most portrayedwomen in history has been so
little known. Even thoughnumerous references to Casati
appear in many art, history, andfashion books, no comprehensive
full length biography of her hasbeen previously published. Such
is history's fate for a lifethat can be too easily dismissed
(13:58):
as idle, hedonistic, andthoroughly excessive. Our
purpose in writing the biographyis to accurately document for
the first time both the life andlegend of this singular woman.
In presenting this, our hope isto ensure the Marchesa Casati's
significant place and theartistic and cultural heritage
(14:23):
of the twentieth century and itscontinuation into this
millennium. So we have a widevariety of topics to talk about
because Kasafi's life touched somany areas of art, culture,
(14:44):
history, more specifically,women's studies, fashion and art
and their transformativeabilities for both the the
viewer and in the pace offashion, and the wearer. And we
do have a you know, today,amongst our speakers, of course,
we you know, all three of themhave a tremendous, and in-depth
(15:09):
knowledge of, costume, fashion,and how they play very important
roles in the cultural landscapeof the time in which the times
in which we are talking andbeyond that. You know, Casati
lived a a relatively long life,which which spanned from the
(15:34):
Belle Epoque through to a goodportion of the twentieth
century. And for someone toremain so remarkably vital and
inspirational is is quite rare.
What I thought we might beginwith as a as a point of
departure, maybe we could returnto Joan's comment about seeing
(15:59):
that image of the MarchesaCasati mimicking, if you will,
of some famous theatrical stillphotographs of Sarah Bernhardt
as Empress Theodora. Why don'tyou speak for a moment, Joan,
about that?
Joan Rosasco (16:16):
Yes. I was so surprised to see the picture of
Sarah that Casati was clearlybasing, her costume for a ball
in '24. It was a costume ball inRome, and she was dressed as
Theodora as played by SarahBernhardt. And I thought
(16:36):
Bernhardt then was the mostfamous woman in the world, the
most photographed, the mostpainted. If you saw the large
exhibition at the Petit Palaisrecently, you saw that Sarah
Bernhardt really was famouseverywhere.
Her most famous role was asTheodora, the Byzantine empress.
(16:58):
So I found this picture in thebook, and I noticed that it was
the crown that Lalique haddesigned for Sarah, but it
wasn't known if this crown hadever been made because there was
no evidence for it in the many,many photographs of Sarah in the
role of Theodora. She preferreda, crown that was based on the
(17:24):
mosaic Ravenna. Looks more likea Kokosnik, and that crown still
exists. It's in the MuseeGalliera.
But this one was only the littlepainting by Lalique that served
as the cover of the program in1902. So it was possible that
this was actually the crown,that Sarah didn't wear and was
(17:48):
only, in the painting and thepainting that clearly Casati was
posing as.
Michael Orlando Yaccarino (17:55):
Thank you. And what what I wanna take
away from what you were saying,Joan, when you mentioned that at
the time, you know, SarahBernhardt was a world renowned
superstar. So when we seeperhaps the Marchesa finding a
kinship in her and reallyslavishly recreating that image,
(18:20):
I think that that may show in away her at the start of her
transformative process ofperhaps looking outward and
reaching out towards what waspopular at that time and making
it her own. But as she continuedto go on and evolve, I think
(18:40):
that she then gained a certainform of confidence and
fearlessness that allowed her tonot so much mimic others, but to
express herself on the deepestlevel. And I'd like to use that
as perhaps, Franchesca, youknow, you have written so much
(19:02):
about unconventional beauty,even bordering on the grotesque.
And I don't wanna jump too farahead, but if we do go through
the Marchesa's visual aestheticover the course of years and
decades, it does become thatmuch more idiosyncratic, that
(19:25):
much more strangely beautiful,and that much more uniquely her
own. The Marchesa started outher life as a very awkward
adolescent, a not very confidentabout her own looks and her
fitting into the conventions ofthe time. And that as she gained
(19:47):
agency, that changed.
Francesca Granata (19:50):
Yes. It's interesting. So she was born
into an upper middle class, aMilanese family. And so the
standards, not only of beauty,but of acceptable femininity for
that demographics was quiterestrictive. And she was not
traditionally beautiful for thecenters of the time.
And I think she eventually, asyou said, started to, kind of
(20:14):
cultivate her own persona, herown look. I mean, when I think
of Casati in contemporary time,I almost think of her as, like,
a, club figure or somebody whois really just really into
performing the self in a very atleast incredible, also very
creative, way. I mean, she washer own work of art as your book
(20:35):
makes clear. As a a work evolvedand also participating all
these, avant garde spaces inEurope, I think she kind of
became more and more daring in,her looks or makeup or clothing.
She went from working withcouturier to going to costume
design because the couturier'swork was not, fantastical
(20:57):
enough.
And so, yes, I think sheembraced almost this kind of
ugly beauty that is questioningwhat is really beautiful, what
was really beautiful in, Europeat the time. I think it was
probably also a reaction to theway she was perceived earlier on
as not really fitting in.
Michael Orlando Yaccarino: Valerie, maybe this would be an (21:16):
undefined
opportunity for our listeners totry to put her shock value in
the context historically of whatwas happening in fashion at at
that time.
Valerie Steele (21:33):
Right. Well, as you look at her life, she goes
through a wide variety offantastic fashions. And as
Franchesca said, she starts outwith couture, avant garde
couture, you know, Fortuny,Poire, and increasingly moves
towards costume, whether thecostumes, minaret, or box
(21:53):
costumes, very much sort ofballet rooste type costuming.
All of which are pushing at theedge of the avant garde. So it's
a lot of fantasy imagery,orientalist fantasies about
women in the harem andbloodthirsty sultans and the way
she wrapped snakes aroundherself or walked with leopards.
(22:17):
The stories that she wouldappear in Saint Mark's Plaza
dressed in a cape, leading aleopard on a leash, and under
the cape would be naked. All ofthese are incredibly
exhibitionistic and exaggeratedversions of self fashioning.
Actually, my favorite thingthough that I rediscovered
(22:37):
rereading the book again lastnight was what you and Scott
described as one of her morerestrained fashion, style when
she went out on the street oneday wearing a black velvet V and
A dress, a tiger skin top hat,and one black eye patch. And I
just thought, oh my god. That'sso fabulous.
(22:58):
Galliano would have died for alook like that. That's so
amazing. It's so perfect interms of contemporary avant
garde theatrical fashion. And Ithink you can put her in that
whole history from Poiret toGalliano and McQueen, a very
theatrical fashion that teeterson the edge between couture and
(23:20):
costume. You know, we'llsometimes say as a criticism.
Oh, that's too costumey. Butit's like Francesca saying she's
like a club kid. She's likesomebody who's created these
amazing look through costume,makeup, hair, all of which are
exaggerated and fantastical,almost grotesque, teetering on
(23:41):
the edge of of decadence andgrotesque green.
Michael Orlando Yaccarino (23:45):
Thank you. And, Joan, how do you feel
this would translate into moreof a societal because of, you
know, the the the milieu inwhich she traveled, everyone
from budding artists topolitical figures to nobility.
(24:06):
Can you give us, Joan, just asense of that type of shock and
awe would be experienced by aFrench salon, let's say, or
someone that came out of ofProust's circle?
Joan Rosasco (24:19):
Well, she didn't have a conventional salon. There
were so many society women. Manypeople in Venice that she she
had a plot, so did the Curtisfamily at Palazzo Barbaro,
Isabella Stewart Gardner wasthere. The process de Polignac
at the Palazzo Polignac, and soon. And these women, or Madame
(24:42):
Labon Pluvinell at Cadario, theyhad salon.
They attracted writers, artists.There was conversation. She was
so different. She hadentertainments, but, these
parties were mostly a kind ofsetting for her own exhibition.
(25:03):
Her costumes, her animals, thewhite peacocks.
And as you said in thebeginning, I think her great
attitude was that she didn'tspeak, that there was no
message, that she remained anenigma, and still does. She
seemed to put on these variousmasks and disguises. But what
(25:25):
was behind the mask? It was amystery. So she was very unlike
the other social leaders, and wedon't see her, very often, or at
least I didn't see evidence ofher in other people's salons.
You you don't find her as aguest at someone's luncheon or
dinner party. When you readpeople's diaries, she they talk
(25:47):
about her, but she's, more aphenomenon. She she was unique
in that sense.
Michael Orlando Yaccarino: Absolutely. And, you know, when (25:54):
undefined
Scott and I were writing thebook, we wanted to present a
portrait that showed as much aswe could this extraordinary
woman in all her shades andcolors, light through dark. We
really had to make a decisionabout not wanting to fall into
(26:18):
pop psychologizing. I mean, oneof the questions, of course,
that a reader of the book wouldmake would why did she do what
she did? What was hermotivation?
What was what did she thinkabout? What should you know, and
there's there's very, verylittle that survives that gives
(26:38):
anything more than a fairlysuperficial insight. We can make
suppositions. We could make,suggestions of what we thought,
but we don't know definitively.As she even during her younger
years, but especially as shebecame older, part of her
(26:59):
ensemble was a veil.
And we tried to keep that aswell with the book, to keep her
as an enticement, as a mystery.But maybe from each of your
perspectives, we could speakjust a moment on what perhaps
your own insights are on whyCasati did what she did, or
(27:22):
perhaps what was her motivation.And Francesca, with your work on
unconventional beauty and thebizarre and the grotesque, and
when you have focused on certainfigures within and outside of
the of the the fashion world,have you found some kind of
(27:43):
connectivity between some ofthose figures with the Marchesa?
So for example, if I'm recallingcorrectly, Earte once comment
that the Marchesa was someonethat he found extremely shy,
which, of course, would seem atodds with egocentrism and
exhibitionism. But then again,how did that such elaborateness
(28:07):
perhaps function psychologicallyspeaking for someone who was at
core, someone who's very privateand shined?
Have you seen that with otherperpetrators of fashion crimes?
Francesca Granata (28:22):
I'm not sure if I can make that connection at
the top of my head. I think it'sinteresting how they use all
these, disguise for the self andmasks. Right? It reminds me of,
the carnival, and it's kind ofmakes sense that one of the form
that she used to express herselfwas the masked ball. To me, that
is this idea of wanting to notkind of have this fixed
(28:45):
identity, but, like, continuallytransforming yourself and
seeking the the edge ofdifferent identities.
I think it's what's I foundreally interesting about the
Marquise Casati is that sheforeshadowed a lot of play with
gender that we have seen in thepostwar years much more coming
(29:06):
to the fore and, definitely inthe last twenty, thirty years.
And, I keep returning to clubculture and these figures like
Lee Bowery, somebody that, likea Kasati, makes this kind of
confusion confuses and questionsthe difference between reality
and make believe. Right? Whereis the reality of Kasati when
she's always in costume? She'salways performing.
(29:28):
So she's almost questioning theidea of an authentic self that
exists from which everythingelse comes out of. So I think
that's what's, to me, was veryfascinating about Damarcheita
Casati and seemed really aheadof her time also in in the way
that she she really lived herlife between categories.
Michael Orlando Yaccarino (29:50):
And, Valerie, in the great gallery of
significant fashion figures, therule breakers, the iconoclasts.
Do you see an affinity betweenher and any of them in
particular, and how might shediffer from them? What were some
(30:11):
of their similarities, and whatmade her uniquely herself?
Valerie Steele (30:16):
Well, what strikes me about her very
powerfully is her exhibitionism.Thinking about it, it reminded
me quite a bit of the Comtessedu Glafout, Montesquieu's,
cousin, who also was someone whowanted to be sort of gazed at by
a multitude of people and tosort of drink in their gaze. And
(30:38):
that made her feel alive in asense and and energized through
that vision of them looking ather. And it seems to me that
with both of them, there was notthe kind of idea of male
exhibitionism, like, look at mypenis or look at my nakedness,
but rather a more almostinfantile, look at me, pay
(31:00):
attention to me, so a demand sothat she wouldn't disappear,
that people would see her andshe would feel reassured and
happy by that gaze as though thegaze kept her alive. Almost like
Tinkerbell, you know, and PeterPan is like, believe in me, and
then you'll keep me alive.
And so something veryexistential and desperate about
(31:22):
that exhibitionism. But also asFranchesca said, the fact that
look at me because I'mconstantly changing. My look is
constantly changing. Alsoimplies a kind of deliberate
artifice or a veil that shekeeps it's like, you'll have to
keep looking at me because I'mconstantly changing, and I'm I'm
(31:43):
always new, and I'm alwaysdifferent. So you'll never stop
being fascinated with me.
So there's also a kind ofstrange artificial neophilia
there, which is reallyinteresting that she wants to be
a kind of an artificial womanwho's transformed all the time
that with the descript a kind ofa changeable, renewable second
(32:05):
skin all the time.
Joan Rosasco (32:07):
And she belongs to a lineage, I think, that extends
from Castiglione to RobertoMontesquiut to Cassati. And it's
interesting that she comes atthe last of the line, but
they're all fascinated by theirown images, conspire to create
images of themselves.Castiglione with Pearson, the
(32:28):
photographer, over, I think,four decades, just documenting
her own looks and curating herown photoshoots, and then
Roberta Montesquieu doing thesame thing. I was going to say
before that there's aninteresting photograph of him
when he was only 19. He was,asked to play the part of
(32:52):
Zanetto in a play called LePassant in a drawing room,
performance.
And so that was SarahBernhardt's first big
breakthrough role in, I think,1864. So now, much later, he
went to Sarah to have her coachhim in the part. And in the
(33:12):
photograph, he is sitting onsome steps wearing the costume
of Zanetto, supposed to be arenaissance minstrel. And she's
sitting next to him, and she'swearing the costume. And they
look like mirror images.
And I think this, fascinationwith your double, with the
(33:32):
simulacra, with, of course,later the wax figures and so on.
But, and Montesquieu kept allthese photographs of himself
from then on in albums that hecalled ego imago, image of
myself. And then you think, am Ithe image? Perhaps that just
(33:53):
means that I am an image or I amthe appearance. And I think he
then collected the photographsof Castiglione and as many
relics of her as he could findand had a little chapel devoted
to her.
And after Casati bought hishouse after he died, she also
(34:15):
had these same photographs. Shetoo had a collection. She then
had a ball in which sheimpersonated Castiglione. It's
really a lineage. And thesethree personalities that were so
similar in their self adulationand their desire to be
represented.
(34:35):
Montesquieu also commissionedmany portraits of himself. He
was painted by Boldini as shewas. He was depicted by Troubad
Scoy as, she was. And, then shemoves into his house. Their
psychologies are interesting toconsider together.
Valerie Steele (34:54):
Yes. I think that that genealogy and that
idea of the doubling that sheidentified with Castiglione and
Montesquieu's doing some of thesame thing is so fascinating.
And your reference to the waxfigures, that she had the wax
figure of herself dressed in thesame clothes, it's really an
amazing fascination, like anartificial double. Again, the
(35:16):
kind of reassurance, I'm here.I'm here in spades.
I'm here in duplicate.
Francesca Granata (35:21):
Yep. There is an element of our work. I think
it also relates to this idea of,like, being in a constant
carnival, right, where the rulesand norms are lifted and when
you're always in costume. But italso made our work ephemeral.
Right?
And that's part of the reasonthese ephemerality is part of
the reason, I think, where shewas not as remember as she could
(35:45):
have been until the biographyand the subsequent also
documentation of her work. Ithink it's it has to do with
this ephemeral quality, not onlyof fashion, which was one of her
means of expression, but alsothere was a real interest in
things that that were finite.Right? She would put months and
(36:06):
months into creating a maskball, which in and of itself is
an ephemeral kind ofperformative space that ends and
is poorly documented.
Valerie Steele (36:16):
Of course, that's true of fashion in
general. So this love of selffashioning is the kind of the
constant repetition of ephemeralforms. I love too finding out
that she commissioned a doll ofherself from Lottie Prisel,
which is so amazing. That was asort of a semiannude, quasi
religious, baroque doll. Thatdoll still exist?
Michael Orlando Yaccarino (36:41):
We were in touch with a private
collector who had, many, many,many of them. And,
unfortunately, that personpassed, and we were in touch
with, an author who was workingon documenting Fritzl's life and
had been behind an exhibitionof, on her, I believe, in
(37:03):
Germany. I'm not sure thewhereabouts of those items now.
I mean, of Fritzl's collectionand and the majority of Casati.
I mean, we have to remember thatwhen the Marchesa stars started
misaligning during her latteryears in Paris, which ended up
in bankruptcy and enforcedauction of her home, so much of
(37:26):
her property was dispersed.
So there really is not atremendous that exists. I mean,
it is a tragedy that we don'thave a few costumes. I mean,
there are little odds and endshere and there around the world,
but there's very, very littlethat exists in that way. I I
(37:47):
think it might help to just takea moment for maybe each of us to
comment of how the Marchesatranscended the time period.
Some of these great art patrons,society figures are very, very
much more often than not linkedand bounded by the time period
(38:08):
in which they lived.
This is not true of theMarchesa. I will begin this by
saying, well, it's a reflectionof the nonstop activity and
curiosity of her mind, and thatshe was not only reaching out to
being represented by such, atthe time, recognized geniuses in
(38:31):
the art world or societypainters such as Baldini. But
she was also very muchinterested in seeking out new
talent. So we have, you know,the stories of her meeting with
Man Ray, you know, this Americanphotographer relocated to Paris
at the beginning of his careerwho was very little known. The
(38:52):
results of their photographicconnection resulted in his
getting many, many jobs withwith high profile fashion
magazines and and helping tolaunch his career, in a fuller
way.
So she was unhesitant to seekout the unconventional. She
didn't wanna rely just on whather peers might think was
(39:16):
desirable. So, Franchesca, weknow you have to end in a few
moments. If you don't mindmaking a few final comments on
what was uniquely, perhaps fromyour work, bizarrely wonderful
and strangely beautiful in termsof her aesthetic and perspective
and point of view that hasallowed her to transcend her
(39:39):
times? And here we are now morethan a hundred years after her
heyday, and we're here talkingabout it.
Francesca Granata (39:47):
Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of it is that, she
was questioning traditionalfemininity. Right? Traditional
feminine roles of our time. Imean, she was certainly
scandalous for a Milanese upperbourgeois society where she came
from, and she was, I mean, itsounds like she was a borderline
(40:07):
scandalous for the avant garde.
So I think also a kind ofthreatening beauty, so to speak,
that we we have seen, incontemporary fashion through
McQueen, especially is somethingthat's remained relevant. So
this this going against,somewhat, domesticated or, yes,
(40:29):
more reassuring beauty, butalso, feminine roles is what I
think kept her in herinteresting and kept her
relevant to into the twentyfirst century.
Michael Orlando Yaccarino: Wonderful. Thank you so much for (40:41):
undefined
your insights, Francesca. And,Joan, you've written and spoken
about some of the great femininebeauties and female icons of the
Belle Epoque, and even how therewas a societal shift as the
motion picture became popular,which was a massive industry in
(41:02):
in Italy, for which, of course,D'Annunzio, one of the Marches'
most illustrious lovers andcomrades, the great Italian,
poet, well, war hero and societyfigure, worked for the silent
film industry. In viewing theseamazing women of that time
period who have not really theythey they're remarkable, but
(41:27):
they haven't broken out of thattime period. Do you have any
thoughts on what allowed theMarchesa to do that, or what
what resulted in that?
Was it that she was an outcast,or there was a time she no
longer really cared about that?
Joan Rosasco (41:44):
Well, I I feel that she was actually, an
anachronism. She seemed tobelong to the world of late
romanticism, the world thatMario Protz describes in the
romantic agony or la carne lamorte e diavolo. All these
themes of, the fatal woman, the,Medusa, the macabre, the occult,
(42:13):
she personified with her dark,eyes, ringed with black coal.
And she, I think, was then amodel later for the silent film
stars. I'm thinking, of,Musidora in Les Vampir by
(42:34):
Folliard.
That was, in, I think, about1915, '19 '16. These vamps were
now becoming sort of popularculture, whereas in the eighteen
eighties and nineties, that hadbeen part of symbolism, that
they'd been taken veryseriously. These were, Salome. I
(42:56):
think of, Oscar Wilde and theBeardsley image of Salome. She's
a terrifying apparition.
And I think Casati was also fromvery much in that category until
the war. And then after the war,there was such a shift in
culture, and she really becameanachronistic. You don't see her
(43:20):
as part of the jazz age. And,you know, she left left Venice
in 1923. Cole Porter rented theCara Sonico in 1925, brought his
American black jazz band, had afloating nightclub on the
canals.
I mean, it was a totallydifferent culture that she
(43:43):
really was no longer, in syncwith. So I think she was the
last gasp of romanticism, andshe was a beautiful late flower
of that movement.
Michael Orlando Yaccarino (43:57):
Thank you so much, John. That's
extremely in insightful and thatshe was, as you mentioned, a
throwback to an earlier ideal.And, you know, I think what
makes it even more fascinatingnow is that is that that is
absolutely valid. And thenbecause of circumstances in the
and and what happened in herlife as she lost her fortunes
(44:19):
and her desire to create andrecreate herself was never
diminished. So during her finaldecades in London, where she had
to rely upon maybe pickingaround scraps of fabric and
pinning things on herself, shewas very Vivienne Westwood and
very punk and veryinadvertently, she's been called
(44:41):
in the press, in connection withour work, you know, the
grandmother of God.
So so, Valerie, I'd I'd like to,perhaps as we wrap up, for you
to bring us up to date in howthe Marchesa has been
rediscovered by new generations,how she's become a figurehead in
(45:03):
the goth community. And one ofthe most satisfying results of
our work on, the Marchesa isthat a year does not go by when
18, 19, 20 year old students,fashion students from around the
world are always reaching out tous, breathlessly proclaiming
(45:25):
their discovery of the Marchesaand how she is their icon.
That's remarkable.
Valerie Steele (45:31):
Well, when I worked on my show, Gothic Dark
Glamour, you know, I had anendless dream of black clad
young people who were also awareof the history of literature and
art and film and who reallyidentified with all of these
historical figures. It wasreally fascinating. I mean, you
see how the history of thesymbolist, you know, idea of the
(45:54):
femme fatale or even going backfurther to the romantic imagery
of, you know, the Medusa or, youknow, someone sitting there like
a dangerous female. And this ledup to be popularized with Theda
Bara and vamps and then vampiresand the sexiness of vampires. It
was strange because that showwhich so appealed to young
(46:17):
people and especially, you know,sort of English people and
American young people.
But I remember I had a group ofItalian fashion executives that
I was showing through Gothic,And they were sort of horrified.
Like, what is this? Some kind ofHalloween show? And then I said,
but look. This is Galliano's.
He's inspired by the MarchesaCasati. And they went, oh, La
(46:40):
Decadenza. And finally, they hadsomething, you know, that they
could identify with. But in inthese ways, you see young people
in the golf community lookingback and pulling her out as an
icon. I think that it's thatkind of what Walter Benjamin
talked about, the tiger's leapinto the past where if there's
(47:00):
something that we desire now infashion, we can find it in the
past and bring it back and bringit back to life.
And so she continues to be aniconic figure both for fashion
designers and for young people,subcultural people.
Michael Orlando Yaccarino: Wonderful. Well, thank you so (47:17):
undefined
much. I really feel that we'vegained a few valuable insights
with all of your amazingcontributions to this. I wanna
thank each of you for yoursharing your thoughts and ideas,
which have all expanded the darkand amazing and beautiful
(47:37):
universe of the Marchesa Casati.And I will just end with the
little tagline that Scott and Idevised twenty five years ago
with the very first publicationof the first edition of the
book, and the University ofMinnesota Press, I might add,
released a paperback versionthat was revised in 02/2004.
(48:03):
And then more recently, theyshowed such support of the
ongoing interest in infinitevariety that they did something
rather remarkable, which theyrereleased the book, which they
had only, up until that point,printed in paperback as a new
hardcover. And they agreed toall of our revisions. So, that
(48:27):
02/2017 University of MinnesotaPress is the most up to date
version of the book with so manylittle treats and treasures in
it in the English language. ButI wanted to just end with a
little tagline that we would,share with anyone interested in
the Marchesa, in reading any ofthe biographical works that we
(48:48):
have done, and each of theparticipants' wonderful work is
prepare to be astonished.
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