January 21, 2025 • 44 mins
Humans are one species on a planet of millions of species. The literary collection Creature Needs is a project that grew out of a need to do something with grievous, anxious energy—an attempt to nourish the soul in a meaningful way, and an attempt to start somewhere specific in the face of big, earthly challenges and changes, to create a polyvocal call to arms about animal extinction and habitat loss and the ways our needs are interconnected. The book’s editors, Christopher Kondrich, Lucy Spelman, and Susan Tacent, are joined here in conversation.
More about the book: Creature Needs is published in collaboration with the nonprofit organization Creature Conserve. The following writers contributed new literary works inspired by scientific articles: Kazim Ali, Mary-Kim Arnold, Ramona Ausubel, David Baker, Charles Baxter, Aimee Bender, Kimberly Blaeser, Oni Buchanan, Tina Cane, Ching-In Chen, Mónica de la Torre, Tongo Eisen-Martin, Thalia Field, Ben Goldfarb, Annie Hartnett, Sean Hill, Hester Kaplan, Donika Kelly, Robin McLean, Miranda Mellis, Rajiv Mohabir, Kyoko Mori, David Naimon, Craig Santos Perez, Beth Piatote, Rena Priest, Alberto Ríos, Eléna Rivera, Sofia Samatar, Sharma Shields, Eleni Sikelianos, Maggie Smith, Juliana Spahr, Tim Sutton, Jodie Noel Vinson, Asiya Wadud, Claire Wahmanholm, Marco Wilkinson, Jane Wong.
About the editors:
Christopher Kondrich, poet in residence at Creature Conserve, is author of Valuing, winner of the National Poetry Series, and Contrapuntal. His writing has been published in The Believer, The Kenyon Review, and The Paris Review.
Lucy Spelman is founder of Creature Conserve, a nonprofit dedicated to combining art with science to cultivate new pathways for wildlife conservation. A zoological medicine veterinarian, she teaches biology at the Rhode Island School of Design and is author of National Geographic Kids Animal Encyclopedia and coeditor of The Rhino with Glue-On Shoes.
Susan Tacent, writer in residence at Creature Conserve, is a writer, scholar, and educator whose fiction has been published in Blackbird, DIAGRAM, and Tin House Online.
Episode references:
The Lord God Bird by Chelsea Steubayer-Scudder in Emergence Magazine
Thinking Like a Mountain by Jedediah Purdy in n+1
Praise for the book:
A thought-provoking and emotionally resonant read that stands out for its lyrical prowess and formal innovation, making it a significant contribution to contemporary literature as well as a key volume bridging the gap between the worlds of science and art.”
—Library Journal
Creature Needs: Writers Respond to the Science of Animal Conservation is available from University of Minnesota Press.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lucy Spelman (00:03):
It's not something we all can do every moment of
the day, but we can find thatway in, that opportunity to get
involved.
Susan Tacent (00:12):
And I said, I need a project. I need something to
do that will has to be a projectthat is big and meaningful.
Christopher Kondrich (00:20):
The work that we do on this collection is
is certainly attempting tocurate the kind of conversation
that I think that we need to behaving as one species on this
planet of millions of species.
Narrator (00:36):
Hello. Today we are here to talk about the book
Creature Needs (00:38):
Writers Respond to the Science of Animal
Conservation. This is acollection of new literary works
by prominent writers paired withexcerpts from recent scientific
articles that inspired andinformed them. Divided into six
sections representing the basicneeds for survival: air, food,
water, shelter, room to move,and each other. The stories and
(01:02):
poems in creature needs vividlyportray how these essential
conditions are under assaultthrough climate change, habitat
loss, plastic and industrialpollution, and human
intervention in naturallandscapes.
Creature needs is acollaboration with a nonprofit
organization. Creature conserveis a five zero one c three
nonprofit outreach organizationdedicated to growing a creative
(01:25):
community that combines art withscience to cultivate new
pathways for wildlifeconservation. The organization
brings together artists,designers, writers, and experts
with scientific and traditionalknowledge in a supportive,
welcoming space to learn aboutthreats to wildlife, share
empathy for animals, exchangeideas, and find opportunities
(01:46):
for growth at the intersectionof art, science, and
conservation. Their programs aredesigned to support the
collaborative art sci processand are open to people at all
skill levels, from allbackgrounds, and in all
countries. Creature Needs is akaleidoscopic literary
exploration of extinction andconservation.
Creature needs has threeeditors. Christopher Condrich is
(02:09):
a poet in residence at creatureconserve and the author of
valuing, which is winner of thenational poetry series and
contrapuntal. His writing hasbeen published in the believer,
the Kenyan review, and the Parisreview. Lucy Spellman is founder
of Creature Conserve. Azoological medicine
veterinarian, she teachesbiology at the Rhode Island
School of Design and is authorof National Geographic Kids
(02:31):
Animal Encyclopedia and coeditor of The Rhino with Glue On
Shoes.
Susan Taessent, writer inresidence at Creature Conserv,
is a writer, scholar, andeducator whose fiction has been
published in Blackbird, Diagram,and Tin House online. Today, we
are lucky to have all threeeditors with us. Welcome
Christopher, Lucy, and Susan.Thank you.
Christopher Kondrich (02:54):
So I'd like to begin with what I think
sets our collection CreatureNeeds apart. There are new
poems, stories, and essays thatare published alongside excerpts
from the science that inspiredthem. This juxtaposition comes
out of the work of CreatureConserve. So, yeah, Lucy, I'd
love to hear from you about thisconnection to the organization
(03:16):
you founded, but I'd also likeus to consider how this joining
of literature and science is, tobring us back to the title, what
creatures need given the myriadcrises they're facing right now.
Lucy Spelman (03:29):
Yeah, Chris. What's great to start with
CreatureConserve, you know, it'sa a passion project of mine.
We're ten years in and, theorganization has grown. We are
growing a creative community andthe ideas in that community,
we're all learning, and findinginspiration, new ways to combine
art and science. And theultimate outcome is that each
(03:51):
person involved finds their ownpathway and we call those art
sci pathways.
We're all on our own journey inlife, right? And I think in
terms of taking care of nature,it's not something we all can do
every moment of the day. But wecan find that way in, that
opportunity to get involved. Theidea of creature conserved is to
make that opportunity open toeverybody and especially to
(04:15):
think about the two big fields,I would say, or approaches to
understanding nature. Right?
And one of those is science. I'ma scientist. But the other is
art. Right? And we're basicallyasking the same question in
those areas.
What's happening in the worldaround me? How do I relate to
it? How do I understand it?Taking care of nature and
understanding our relationshipwith animals is both art and
(04:37):
science. It's the idea ofcreature conserves to create
space for that.
And and to recognize it is it'scomplicated, but it's also
intricate and fascinating. Andscience informs some of the
decisions we might make, but sodo our emotions. So I think what
I'm so excited about with thebook is it really demonstrates
all these ways in, you know,through the voices of the
(04:59):
writers and poets. As we readthese works, we get taken down
different pathways. And I alsosee these pathways growing.
Everybody who has contributed tothe book and all of us who read
their works, we all then aremerging our pathways. Right? And
that gives us that many moreways to get involved and to take
better care of each other andthe animals that we see or
(05:20):
interact with on a daily basis,as well as the ones we we might
never see, but we know about andand we care about.
Susan Tacent (05:26):
Yeah. I'm gonna back us up a little bit to a
time when the book did not existyet. It was late May, early June
'20 '20 '1. The pandemic wasstill with us, but we were able
to feel relatively safe inleaving our houses. We were
still masking.
My daughter was moving out afterbeing home for almost two years
(05:48):
to Philadelphia. So she wasgonna be living farther than she
had ever lived from us in herlife, our lives together. And we
got on the train, the two of us,and we had to sit two seats
apart, and we had to be masked.I came home, and I said, I need
a project. I need something todo that will engage me, absorb
me, something I care about.
It has to be something I careabout. It has to be a project
(06:10):
that is big and meaningful. Igave myself that assignment as I
had to learn how to let mydaughter live apart again after
going through that once when shewent away to college. My heart
needed something as well as mymind. I thought, well, I know
nothing better in my lifeexperience than working with
(06:31):
Lucy.
We've been friends for manydecades. We won't count. And I
thought, okay. This there'sgotta be something we can do.
And Lucy, Chris, and I had beenteaching workshops for Creature
Conserve where we used a processthat we worked through and
developed based on what Lucy hadbeen doing with the visual
artists, which was teaching,learning something about the
(06:53):
science, the actual science, howa bird breathes or how a whale
communicates or, you know, howto artificially inseminate an
elephant.
I could not do that if I neededto, but I know it can be done.
And I would know the people toask, which is interesting. Not
everybody can say that. So Isaid, Lucy, let's do a book.
Let's find a bunch ofcontemporary writers and poets
(07:15):
to put through the process thatwe put through in our workshops
and get a book out of it.
And she said, okay. But we haveto ask Chris. We want Chris to
do it. I said, okay. And so wewent to Chris and Chris said a
instant and enthusiastic andbrow creasing yes.
Because you could see Chrisalready was writing the book in
(07:36):
his head and figuring outthings. And so there we had our
project. And, you know, meetingsfollowed and thinking followed
and that wonderful thing thatwriters and artists do all the
time, which is off camerathinking maybe where you're
doing something else and all ofa sudden you realize, woah, we
could do this, that, the otherthing. So the book was born out
(07:58):
of that need to let go of mydaughter, trust that she was
safe, and to nourish myself in ameaningful way. And I think that
the planet right now is askingus to do some version of that
and that we better do it.
We better be I hesitate to usethe word maternal, but it is a
(08:19):
sort of maternity in terms ofcaretaking and listening and
recognition and understandingand respect. And so that's how
the book got started. And then,you know, we thought, well, we
want to ask people to do this.What do we do? We'll send them
articles.
We'll ask Lucy to put articlestogether. We'll set it in The
(08:39):
United States. We will, limit itto writers writing in English.
We'll limit it to poets andwriters who we either know or
want to know, and we will askthem to read the science article
and respond to it. And we won'tgive them instruction, writing
(09:00):
instruction as we might have oreven reading instruction as we
might have in a an actualworkshop.
Right? We will trust that theyhave enough experience and
enough talent and enoughinterest and enough love for the
subject to put somethingtogether. We set word limits. We
set a 3,000 word or 10 pages forpoets. Poets get a little more
elbow room, because of the whitespace on pages.
(09:22):
And we started to make a list ofwhom we might ask. And we
thought about writers and poetswho have experience, sort of,
you know, have talent, have exhave written things that ex that
indicated interest already inthe topic of animal conservation
and the bigger picture ofbasically saving species, saving
(09:44):
planet. And we started emailingpeople, people we knew, people
we had seen read, people wedidn't know, but we knew their
books. There's no pretense. If Iwrote to you and I said I love
your poetry, I it was because Ilove your poetry.
If I met you at a writingworkshop and you blew me away,
asking you something now, thatwas because that's how I was
(10:05):
feeling about your work. And 98%of people said yes. They said it
quickly, and they thanked us.It's not every day that you are
thanked for asking somebody todo something. And, you know,
with every response and, youknow, the emails that went back
between Chris and me, this onesaid yes.
(10:26):
That one said yes. And then wewould tell Lucy, you're not
gonna believe who said yes.Every confirmation was another
heart beat in this project. Youknow, it was like the book, the
book still didn't exist. Itdidn't have a cover.
It didn't have page numbers. Itdidn't have illustrate. You
know, it didn't have all the thescience articles picked. It
didn't have the work, but everyyes was exciting. And then we
(10:48):
sent them an article.
Lucy curated the articles, andI'm gonna ask Lucy to talk a
little bit more about that. ButI do wanna just add one more
thing here at this point aboutthe book coming from the again,
this idea about we're coming outof a pandemic and maybe it's
safe to get a little fartheraway from home, but where where
are we and and what are we doingand how forward? Chris and I
(11:11):
went back and forth about how toorganize the book that didn't
exist yet because if it weregoing to exist, it would have to
have some sort of structure.Right? And you start to
immediately have to makechoices.
And so we came up with somethingvery basic, which Lucy had been
teaching me over and over again.And, Maggie, you've read it
beautifully before. It's thosesix needs that every living
(11:33):
creature requires, which is air,food, water, shelter, room to
move, and each other. Thosebecame the six sections. And
then we asked Lucy to findanimals, creatures, vertebrates,
invertebrates, birds, seacreatures, land creatures, and
we asked her to find articlesfor that.
And then the writers were askedto choose what topic, what what
(11:55):
need they wanted, and then wewould send them an article.
Christopher Kondrich (11:58):
Yeah. I mean, I think that the
collection and that the workthat we did on this collection
is is certainly attempting tocurate the kind of conversation
that I think that we need to behaving as one species on this
planet of millions of species.And that is not only how do we
take care of other species, buthow are the needs of other
(12:19):
species interconnected? So,yeah, I'd love to hear from you,
Lucy, a little bit about youryour thought process about
selecting the articles. Youknow, as we know, the crises
that species are facing aremyriad, are innumerable.
You know, it's hard to thinkabout one problem without having
to grapple with all the otherproblems that are related. And,
(12:41):
you know, it it it often feelsdaunting, especially for people
who are concerned aboutbiodiversity in this world. You
know, another related questionis in terms of, you know,
picking these articles, we'repicking what is the creative
work gonna be coming out of?What is it that we wanna shed
light on? Right?
What do we think is importantout of all of the different
(13:03):
research that's that's out thereand Scott that's coming out, you
know, every single day?
Lucy Spelman (13:08):
Yeah. So I think in terms of the basic needs and
the the selecting of the papers,what I I remember, Chris and
Susan, you guys setting up ameeting with me and being very
excited about, we we know how toorganize the book. And I was
thrilled. I teach. I'm in now myfourteenth year teaching,
biology to art and designstudents at Rhode Island School
of Design.
(13:28):
And what I where I usually beginis our biology connects us.
Right? We are all animals, andwe all need those same basic
things. And yet humans are thedominant species, right? So in
general, we control thoseresources and it's, that's
really the crux of this.
Like, it's really up to uswhether we are all going to have
(13:49):
clean air or clean water,whether we're going to have even
our own species room to moveeach other. So that is for me as
trained in biology and thentrained in geological medicine
and then applying that work inconservation and in teaching and
in my own writing, it's reallythat idea that it's, it's really
beautifully simple. If I'm nothealthy in my world, if I don't
(14:14):
have air, food, water, shelter,room to move in each other, then
the animals in my environmentalso don't. Right? And it works
the other way.
If the animals have those thingsor I can take steps to help
those animals have what theyneed, then I'm, I'm much more
likely to have what I need. So Isee the health of everything is
connected and how also if we youknow, because everything's
(14:36):
connected, any small move in thewrong direction sets off a
ripple, right? A chain reactionthat is not good. And that's
that's largely what humans havebeen doing, a lot of negative
ripples. And we have to at leaststop the ripple to stop things
from getting worse.
And we can actually move thosereactions forward because
everything's connected, right?Because if I make the soil in my
(14:59):
yard healthier, I'm going tohave more earthworms or, and and
and monarch butterflies. And,you know, it's that's the
optimistic view that we can takeadvantage of the fact that our
shared needs connect us. It's sofundamental. It's so obvious in
a way.
But it also, as we weredescribing the work of Creature
Conserved, it's just thebeginning of a pathway. It's a
(15:20):
place to begin. So when Chrisand Susan said, let's organize
the book this way, I was like,okay. So I could look for I
mean, there's so much scientificliterature, right? But I could
pick species, animal species inThe US that are in trouble and
look for recent papers that justfocus on one of those needs.
(15:41):
Maybe just even the title is thefocus because, you know, when
you go read about any animal andit's and what's happening to it,
again, we're all connected. Soall of those potential problems,
whether that's climate change orpollution of the water or not
enough room to not a no corridorleft for the animal to move from
one place to the other. Everysummary of a problem is gonna
(16:02):
touch on all of those needs. Butscience is about honing down and
picking getting very specific.And and that's also kind of the
opportunity.
It's like, well, if we reallylook at how this lizard is being
impacted by this wind farm, whatis really happening? And if you
can really understand what'shappening, then you can pinpoint
that part of the chain. Right?Okay. This is about the wind is
(16:24):
changing the humidity and it'schanging how this creature
lives.
And then you can think about,well, what can we do about it?
That was the first criteria. Andthe second criteria was, yeah,
variety of creatures. And thethird one was, you know, and I
teach non scientists how to gothrough science papers. Like it
has to be a readable paper, somescientific papers, just the way
they're formatted, the way theylook on the page, they're just
(16:46):
really hard to get through.
So a little bit of it was like,there's so much great science
out there as a scientist, butit's, it's hidden, right? It's
in technical language, either ina journal or publicly available
as all the papers we used. Butit's, it's hidden in that we
aren't accessing it. It's notsomething that we would
naturally go to. We meaning thenon scientist community.
(17:07):
And even in my community, like,science has lots of of silos
within it. We don't all readeach other's science. So I some
of the papers just had to bereadable. And there were several
cases where Chris or Susan werelike, yeah, this paper's not
doing it. It's just either theanimal wasn't quite interesting
enough or, like, I think therewas one time, Chris, where we
were like, do we do this animalor that animal?
(17:28):
It's like so that was funbecause we wanted the writers to
be excited. But at the sametime, it is actually limitless.
The possibilities are limitless.And as Susan said, we picked
American Species because we thetwo of you guys really felt like
we can pull in the Americanwriters. But the book is
honestly is a template for thesame book picking 40 species in
(17:52):
East Africa or in Australia, youknow, or in Europe and pulling
people together and looking atwhat's happening.
It wasn't hard to pick thescience, but I think it was a
specific effort. It helped. Ithelped to say, we want to, have
this rubric, if you will. And Ithink at that point, we had no
idea how well it was gonna work.
Susan Tacent (18:15):
Yeah. Can I jump in there? Because I just wanna
talk to the writers who wequeried and who said yes. Just
think for a minute what Lucyjust said about lizard and
humidity and wind farm. Littlelight bulbs go off in the
writer's mind and head and heartbecause that's a story.
That's a poem. That's that'smaterial that we non scientists
(18:37):
wouldn't have had access to. Andsuddenly we have this bit of
information that is kind of mindblowing and important, and we've
got something to work with, andwe realize we have something to
say. We have character. We haveplot.
We have setting. We haveconflict. We have potential
solution. We have understanding.It's the perfect mix of
ingredients for a story or apoem to come out.
(18:57):
I knew that. I knew that fromteaching in person that that was
gonna happen every time somebodygot an article that they
wouldn't have accessedotherwise, and then they knew
what section they were in. And Iwas also, Lucy, thinking about
when when there was one timewhere you changed a creature
from air to water or something,and so, you know, things got
moved around. It was exciting toask you for articles and to know
(19:20):
that we were gonna get the goodscience back.
Christopher Kondrich (19:23):
Yeah. I I'll just say that the poets I
reached out to were just somewhose work inspires me and who I
knew were already thinking aboutthe way in which poetry can
cultivate civic engagement andhow can how, you know, how they
that poetic space can be a spaceof civic engagement, whose work
was already sort of thinkingabout the role that poetry can
(19:45):
play in culture and society, andwhat can poets and poems already
you know, what can they take onas artists and citizens and
private individuals? And sothese things were on my mind. I
did not know what was going tobe coming back or the ways in
which the poems were going tobe, you know, engaging with the
science, whether through form,you know, Sean Hill's poem comes
(20:08):
to mind, or it's through soundand syntax, the, you know,
Helenie Siclianos' poem comes tomind, whether poems were going
to be innovating, you know, interms of form, and language, or
working with perceived formslike, you know, Crick's Endos
Peros' sonnets. I was surprisedby what came back and heartened
because I knew what these poetsand writers were doing was the
(20:32):
work of deriving truth fromfact, Thinking about, you know,
the facts that were in the paperand doing the work that all
writers, all artists do, andthat is to think about how to
distill those facts into atruth, you know, that that's in
the art that's going to movepeople, that's going to stir
people towards further thoughtand and action.
(20:54):
So I was deeply moved andsurprised by what contributors
were able to to write and anddeeply inspiring and and,
honestly, deeply grateful thesecontributors were able to do
this really important work. And,you know, I I'm just so excited
to share this collection withreaders because I think that
they're going to be deeplyinspired by this collaboration
(21:14):
between literature and science.And, you know, and and like you
were saying, Lucy, you know,maybe this is a template. I'm
hoping that it inspires peopleto think about how cross
disciplinary work can not onlybe a driver for the positive
social and political change, butalso can be a really great
opportunity for writers.
Susan Tacent (21:36):
Yeah. I'm gonna I'm gonna add to that. It is it
is an opportunity, and we weregrateful. Every time a piece
came back, and they came backpretty quickly, we we didn't
have to chase too many peopledown. It was like having a
birthday every day.
You know? Look what came in lookwhat came this. It was so
exciting to see the names ofthese writers and poets that you
admire and that you admireusually from afar, and then you
(21:57):
get an email from them with newwriting that it was not been
published, that was inspired byan article that you sent that
Lucy curated about a creaturethat they hadn't thought about
ever probably in their lifebefore and certainly not in
those terms. And then, you know,to know intuitively and then
realize that we were puttingtogether a workbook or a journal
(22:20):
for people because the wonderfulfolks at University of Minnesota
Press designed this book in waysthat we could not have dreamt up
ourselves. And we are so excitedabout the look of it from cover
to cover and everything inside.
It's just this perfect balanceof the writing, the science, the
illustrations, the categories.It's really a dream come true
(22:44):
from a design point of view, andit's got places where a reader
could write in it. And it it'sbecause of the way it's set up,
you could pick up the bookanywhere and read about, say,
all the creatures that live inthe sky before you went back to
and you could go through it thatway or you could go through it
by only sea creatures. Or youcould read the science excerpt
(23:07):
and then write your own pieceand then read what somebody else
did, which is pretty exciting todo from a creative writing point
of view and from a writingworkshop point of view, but also
just from an interacting withthe science and the creativity
and your own planet. There'ssome creature for everybody in
there.
You know, we've all seen some ofthem or we've heard of some of
(23:29):
them. And what a gift to hearabout one that you didn't know
about or to find out how thisworks or how a respiratory
system in a creature works thatisn't a human creature. I still
am amazed that there was a timebefore the book existed. We have
hard copies in our hands, so weknow it's real. You know, from
those very first, yes, I wouldlove to do that, like, I wrote
(23:51):
to Charles Baxter.
Baxter. He's become a friend, soit was like, dear Charlie, will
you do this? And he said, yes.And I said, well, what category
do you want? And he said, youpick.
And I said, okay. And I pickedair, and I picked an article
about fireflies, and I sent itto him. And the next day, he
wrote back, dear Susan, you sentme fireflies, and this is what
(24:14):
happened. And there was thisbeautiful page and a half long
piece, and it opens the book,and it's just magnificent. Annie
Hartnett, we sent her polarbears, and she said, oh, no.
I was hoping not to get polarbears. And I said, I know, but
you could do it. And she wrotethis gorgeous story about a co
an elderly couple and who's thewife doesn't want to upset the
(24:37):
husband, so she cuts articlesout of the paper before she
gives it to him to read. And,you know, she did it. She did
the polar bear justice, andthat's the thing, you know,
because we were fortunate enoughto be able to contact writers
who are so talented and and haveso much investment in the
survival of this planet.
We got back beautiful pieces,you know, with a lot of heart.
(24:59):
It's just like watching someamazing seed that you planted
and looking out the window, andthere's this garden there that
is just thriving and diverse andhealthy and hopeful.
Lucy Spelman (25:13):
Yes. Susan, I you know, I think something we've
all the three of us have talkedabout and kind of the core at
Creature Conserv is that this isa tough topic. Right? Wildlife
populations all over the worldare declining, and the reason is
us. Right?
Human impacts are causing this.It is a mass extinction, and
it's not easy to think about orfeel. Distilling truth from
(25:35):
fact, finding your own way toconnect with this this topic.
You know, the science can say xnumber of polar bears, this is
what's gonna happen. The sciencecan predict the climate change,
but it's really the art thatlets us internalize that and
connect with it and taps intoour emotions and our
subconscious.
And, you know, it also gives theproblem, if you will, context.
(25:57):
You know, we all have differentcultures, different life
experience. We spend differentamounts of time in nature from,
you know, almost none to a lot.And so those those are all
things that affect how you dealwith this topic. For me, the
book has a similar potentialimpact as the exhibitions that
we put on at Creature Conserved.
As you mentioned, we started ourfirst programs were bringing
visual artists together to learnfrom, scientists and other
(26:20):
experts in conservation. Andwe've had four major exhibits
now, 30 or 40 visual artistsmaking work around a topic,
learning from experts, spendingtime in the field, you know,
different amounts of science.That's all great. But when you
would watch people come into theexhibit, it's a lot to take in
40 artworks around how weconflict with urban wildlife or
how we use animals in thewildlife trade or even just the
(26:44):
fact that we have this thingthat is extinction happening.
And people would just be drawnto one or two pieces, maybe
three.
You know, we all have adifferent aesthetic. We're all
feeling differently on a givenday. And to have the choice to
say, yeah, I wanna watch thisshort film, or I wanna just go
up to that sculpture and hangout with it. Or in this case, I
just I just want to take in onepoem. I think this is really
(27:06):
important that we all havechoices.
That's what I was alluding tobefore in our pathways. It
doesn't have to always be all infront of us at every moment. But
we do need to have ways that wecan engage with this topic. We
could say that the science, theknowledge that says we're
animals too, and we need ahealthy planet. Right?
(27:26):
That's pure science. But whathelps us take that in and make
it feel real, and make us maybewanna make a different decision
about how we live our lives andthe impact we have on the
planet, it's really through thearts. And, you know, artists
have always been interpreters ofour time, whether that's music
or performance, writing. Andthis is, again, if the book is a
(27:48):
template or a prompt, as Susanwas saying, or for a classroom
or anyone. The more and more andmore and more this engagement
with our relationship with otheranimals and the fact that we can
put our finger on a spot in thatchain reaction and make a
decision about whether we wantto change the outcome, I think
it becomes a lot more just partof day to day life and rather
(28:09):
than some big challenge thatsomebody else is gonna solve.
I think we were talking earlierabout, you know, the
subcategories, what's causingextinction, right? They're huge.
Climate change, you know,resource extraction, habitat
loss, global trade, emergingdiseases, the way we farm, the
way we hunt. Even those are justbig, big categories. And it's
(28:30):
it's easier to just startsomewhere much more specific
like that lizard or any of theother or the polar bear.
And I think we are fascinatedwith what the experience was of
the writers who participatedbecause the process is is more
important, really. We can engageand we can think about this
together and we can make alittle shift in our behavior
(28:51):
together. And that's what that'swhat Creature Conserv is all
about, is supporting thatprocess and helping people
who've never done this beforeand never thought about bringing
art and science together or eventaking in something that's art
and science together. Justsaying, Hey, come see. This is a
new way to engage with thistopic.
It's hard. It's hard work. Andthe writing is so beautiful. And
(29:13):
again, I sit as the scientist,not as the one with that amazing
talent of our writers or thevisual artists. I'm always
fascinated with what thatprocess is like and how they
went from that science to theactual writing piece.
Christopher Kondrich (29:26):
Well, you know, we get bombarded with
information on a daily basis,and even the most passionate and
dedicated of us are taking ininformation on such a regular
basis, we move on from it. We goabout our day having learned
something, whether it's thescience that we're learning
about species or issues that areclimate change related, we move
(29:49):
on. And I'm, you know, thinkingabout this title, creature
needs, what these creatures needis for us to not move on. In
order for us to actually grapplewith the issues and these
squeeze questions of our impact,in order to actually make the
policy and and social changesthat we need to make. And, you
(30:09):
know, I think that that's whatthey really need.
And, you know, I, for one, needthe writers in these collections
to help me remember, to move me,because I, you know, I can't
move on from an incredible poem.I can't move on from a story or
a beautifully written lyricessay. The information that is
(30:29):
conveyed through literature issomething that stays with me,
and it's much harder for me toshake it if it stirs me, if it
moves me. What I reallyappreciate about this collection
is that you read the science,and then that science is
integrated into the literaturethat is there too, and the
(30:49):
literature by our extraordinarycontributors makes it stick so
that you can't shake it. Theother thing that I wanted to say
is that it's just reallyimportant to me for there to be
aesthetic diversity, for thereto be diversity across, the
voices of of writers and livedexperiences that are collected
in, you know, in this bookbecause it's gonna be even more
(31:11):
difficult to shake off a poem ora story from one page to the
next as you're reading thecollection if they're coming at
it from from all differentaesthetic directions.
I think that that's what makesthis book so incredibly dynamic,
but also really important, isthat we have such diversity of
voices and of writers that arehelping this information really
(31:34):
be be unshakable.
Susan Tacent (31:36):
Yeah. We worked hard to ensure that diversity
for those reasons that Chris hasjust delineated so beautifully.
And at some point, wanted to saysomewhere in the book, this is
not an anthology. We settled onthe word collection. We love the
polyvocal call for change thatMinnesota came up with.
It's a map in a way of thewriters and poets who live all
(32:00):
over the country and travel allover the world. It's a map of
the creatures who are featured,examined, considered, responded
to in the book. One of thethings I love about it is the
idea that until each contributorhas read the entire book, they
only see their tiny little pieceof the map. And until a reader
(32:24):
comes to the book and reads theentire book, they've only seen
one tiny little piece of themap. And to go back to creature
conserves emphasis on connectionand how we are all connected and
how we are all animals, humans,and, you know, rhinoceroses and
octopuses, all same six needspretty much in different, you
(32:46):
know, doses, I guess.
When we see that map fill in,even though it's just part of
the planet, it's still going togive the clearest picture that I
can think of off the top of myhead of what we're facing and
how interconnected everything isand what needs to be done.
Because, again, as Chris andLucy have been saying, because
(33:08):
we are getting at it from notonly the science, but also the
intellect and the heart becausesome of these pieces have an
emotional component to them.Some of them have an
intellectual you know, they theyhave all the the good stuff that
we want in our literature. Oncewe experience that, I think
there is a deeper understandingand perhaps a willingness to
(33:30):
slow down and to figure out waysto help rather than run away or
hide or simply cry, which on anygiven day is not a terrible
response, but is not going toultimately get us to where we
want to be.
Lucy Spelman (33:47):
Yes. I I was just going to echo both of what you
guys said and that we all havecreatures that are proximal to
us. Like, what creature did yousee today? Did you think twice
about how its day went? Youknow?
It's okay that we're we arehuman, so we are social
creatures, and we are thinkingabout each other. But we're also
a visual species. We seecreatures, and we really are
(34:09):
purposely not engaging with themwhen we see, let's say, a
squirrel or a robin if we'rehere in the Northeast. But what
if you did engage? Right?
And Susan, that's one of the,exercises we do with one of our
teaching workshops is theprompt, if I have this right,
Susan is, you know, pick ananimal that you saw on your way
to the to to this workshop oryou saw in the morning of the
workshop and imagine what washappening to it at that moment.
(34:32):
And I think that may seem justvery esoteric, but it's it's a
step toward feeling thatconnection and sharing, yeah,
your own existence with anonhuman animal. Hanging out
with creatures is not for justfor kids. Right? It helps us as
adults and the book as much aswe hope everybody of every age
reads it.
But it this is for us, those ofus who are making decisions on a
(34:56):
day to day basis about how wewanna use our resources. And I
think animals are a way in, andit can be fascinating.
Curiosity, being open, beingcurious, and being present.
Right? If you're if you're openand curious and present about
nature around you in the moment,you can manage that.
If you start to think about it,all of it all at once, it can be
(35:17):
too much.
Susan Tacent (35:18):
Yeah. I I ran into a local contributor, and I asked
Jody what Jody Vinton, what wasit like to write about owls? And
she she had a a bunch of answersthat I thought were wonderful,
but one of the things she saidis she'll never forget the, idea
of the owls wearing tiny littlebackpacks they were fitted with
so that they could be part of aresearch experiment. And so now,
(35:39):
of course, I now picture owlswith tiny little backpacks, and
I get to think about that. Andthen I get to think about what
would an owl be?
What were they looking for? Whatwere the science questions? And
what did they find out. Itpiques my curiosity. It piques
my creative impulse.
And and, Lucy, the writingexercise, we developed that for
urban wildlife, the workshop onurban wildlife learning to
(36:00):
coexist. And we asked them, sowho'd you meet on your way in?
Was it a squirrel? Was it ahawk? Was it a crow?
You know, was it a snail? Andthen we asked them to write, you
know, what do you think theywere up to? And what would you
ask them? If you could speak tothem, what would you ask them,
and what would you wish forthem? And, you know, you're in a
room full of people who selfselected to take this workshop,
(36:21):
and so you know that it's reallyeasy to make them cry by telling
them a sad story about animals.
It's really easy to make themsay awe and laugh if you tell
them kind of a funny story aboutanimals because animals are
endlessly amusing. And it'sreally easy to make them care
because they already care. Itwas just a room full of, like,
(36:41):
sparkling responses and andpeople talking amongst
themselves about what creaturesthey saw. And just also asking
them to think about and afterthe workshops, asking people to
go outside and interact a littlebit. And, you know, the book is
gonna do that too.
It's I hope it's gonna giveimpetus toward engaging, which
is what we're really talkingabout here in a way. Right?
Christopher Kondrich (37:01):
Yeah. This conversation about what what the
creative work in this collectionis doing, you know, sort of,
gearing us towards the present,makes me think of this excellent
essay, by Chelsea Steiner orScudder that was published in
Emergence magazine called TheLord God Bird. And she writes at
one point, quote, what if wedidn't jump straight into
(37:22):
resignation, but turned awayfrom a future ending and toward
the present, toward that whichis immediately around us?
Perhaps this is the real work tobe done here now. You know, and
I think that that's kind of whatthis this collection is doing
because there is the solution.
This collection is very muchinterested in trying to seek out
(37:43):
solutions that the science isoffering us. And part of that
solution is becoming rooted inthe present that is immediately
around us through the creativework. There's this writer whose
work I really love, JedidiahPurdy, and he asks a question in
an essay. His essay is calledThinking Like a Mountain, and it
(38:04):
was published in n plus one.And, this question that I I keep
thinking about, you know, yearin and year out after I've read
it, he writes, what is lookingback at us through other
species' eyes?
Could we ever escape our ownheads and know the viewpoint of
a hawk? Is there such a thing asthinking like a mountain? The
(38:29):
way I think about thesequestions is could we ever
escape our own heads and knowthe viewpoint of a hawk? Of
course not. Of course not.
But I think that the act oftrying is really important
because it helps us todeemphasize the human
(38:54):
centeredness that I think is atthe root and cause of
biodiversity loss, theanthropocentrism that's at the
root of of the myriad crisesfacing all these species. I
think we have to try. I don'tthink anybody is going to read a
novel that's in the voice of ahawk and actually believe that
(39:14):
that novel is capturing exactlywhat the consciousness of a hawk
is like. But that is an act ofempathy that is integral, that
is deeply compassionate andessential to living equitably on
a planet of million species. Sothat's how I think about that
question.
(39:34):
I I don't know. I would I wouldlove love to hear your response
to the to the party quote.
Susan Tacent (39:40):
Yeah. It's also willingness to walk across the
divide, the apparent divide.Right? To take a step over that
line that we think is there thatwe that we don't realize that
we're drawing and that isperhaps a false boundary.
Lucy Spelman (39:54):
Yeah. I agree with that. But I think it's also
about creating space to learnwhat it's like to be a hawk or a
mountain and then to shareempathy
Christopher Kondrich (40:02):
or
Lucy Spelman (40:02):
express empathy. And then what ideas come from
that, right? It's that idea thatit's accessible to all of us.
We're all part of nature. And Ithink it that quote goes beyond
we're all animals.
It goes we're all part ofnature. Right? We are as much of
nature as a mountain is. So Ifind it, you know, this is
sounds so simple again, but ifwe begin there, okay, yeah, we
(40:26):
are part of that mountain and wehave a stake in whether that
mountain persists or not. Andthat's the beginning of feeling
empowered.
We can't imagine exactly whatthat hawk is seeing, but we
could try. That puts us in thepresent and empowers us to feel
like we can participate in evenjust the knowing, not
necessarily the solving of aproblem. Right? In wildlife
(40:48):
conservation and in in any bigsort of effort, societal effort
to solve a big problem, it canbe overwhelming. Again, we
talked about this earlier.
And I think it can be sooverwhelming that it feels like
that's somebody else's job, thennothing happens, or it feels
like there's a prescribed way ofbehaving. And I think what I
love about, this quote and thebook and exhibits that we
(41:11):
support at Creature Goods orreally all of the programs we
support is it's notprescriptive. There is no one
way. There is no this is how youdo, this is how you help
wildlife. We're all here on thisplanet where there's many, many
ways and we can all make achoice and find that path.
I have one question for Chrisand Susan again, just thinking
about as the book comes out andwe are excited to organize with
(41:35):
with the University of MinnesotaPress some book launches and
some readings. What do you guysthink or hope will happen once
the book is out there?
Susan Tacent (41:44):
I hope they all join hands and start a
revolution, but that's just afantasy. We don't know what it
was like for them. We only knowwhat we got back from them. It's
an opportunity to let the bookcontinue to do its work, I
think, for people, right, andfor creatures. So I think it's
just, again, just the beginningof this magic garden that we've
(42:05):
planted and that they'veplanted, and I think it's gonna
be amazing.
Christopher Kondrich (42:09):
I, for one, am I'm really looking
forward to this book being outin the world, and and, of
course, to the events that thatcontributors I can be having.
But, of course, I mean, I'm I'mI'm I really want this to
actually do have an impact. Andwhat I'm I'm hoping that this
book will inspire people tothink about are the ways in
(42:31):
which biodiversity loss and andthe the the challenges that
species are facing, that it'sit's happening all around us.
It's local. I'm hoping that thatthis collection will inspire
folks to find out ways in whichthey can be of some use in their
local ecosystem, in their localcommunity.
Lucy Spelman (42:52):
Yeah. I could add to that, Chris, because I think
at at Creature Conserv, we talka lot about that pathway is not
a short term. Sometimes it's itcan take months to years to find
that way in. Right? So I thinkthe expectation that I have is
start somewhere.
I think that's what you'resaying. It's the book as a
starting point. The call iswildlife populations are
declining. The response iscreature needs. The response is
(43:16):
let's say, hey, we can all trysomething new.
We can combine art and science.We can find our way into this
topic. So it's an invitation torespond in a way that makes
sense to whoever you are. Andagain, it has there's no
prescription other than, youknow, right here, right now, we
we need to do something. Andthere's so many ways, so many
(43:36):
things you can do.
Susan Tacent (43:37):
Yeah. Lucy and and and, Chris, I think the science
and that the science is not overour heads, and it's not out of
reach, and it's not going tohurt us. And we can access it,
and we can use it to help. Andit can activate us, motivate us,
inform us.
Narrator (43:57):
This has been a University of Minnesota Press
production. The book, CreatureNeeds, Writers Respond to the
Science of Animal Conservationis available from University of
Minnesota Press. Thank you forlistening.
It's not something we all can do every moment of
the day, but we can find thatway in, that opportunity to get
involved.
Susan Tacent (00:12):
And I said, I need a project. I need something to
do that will has to be a projectthat is big and meaningful.
Christopher Kondrich (00:20):
The work that we do on this collection is
is certainly attempting tocurate the kind of conversation
that I think that we need to behaving as one species on this
planet of millions of species.
Narrator (00:36):
Hello. Today we are here to talk about the book
Creature Needs (00:38):
Writers Respond to the Science of Animal
Conservation. This is acollection of new literary works
by prominent writers paired withexcerpts from recent scientific
articles that inspired andinformed them. Divided into six
sections representing the basicneeds for survival: air, food,
water, shelter, room to move,and each other. The stories and
(01:02):
poems in creature needs vividlyportray how these essential
conditions are under assaultthrough climate change, habitat
loss, plastic and industrialpollution, and human
intervention in naturallandscapes.
Creature needs is acollaboration with a nonprofit
organization. Creature conserveis a five zero one c three
nonprofit outreach organizationdedicated to growing a creative
(01:25):
community that combines art withscience to cultivate new
pathways for wildlifeconservation. The organization
brings together artists,designers, writers, and experts
with scientific and traditionalknowledge in a supportive,
welcoming space to learn aboutthreats to wildlife, share
empathy for animals, exchangeideas, and find opportunities
(01:46):
for growth at the intersectionof art, science, and
conservation. Their programs aredesigned to support the
collaborative art sci processand are open to people at all
skill levels, from allbackgrounds, and in all
countries. Creature Needs is akaleidoscopic literary
exploration of extinction andconservation.
Creature needs has threeeditors. Christopher Condrich is
(02:09):
a poet in residence at creatureconserve and the author of
valuing, which is winner of thenational poetry series and
contrapuntal. His writing hasbeen published in the believer,
the Kenyan review, and the Parisreview. Lucy Spellman is founder
of Creature Conserve. Azoological medicine
veterinarian, she teachesbiology at the Rhode Island
School of Design and is authorof National Geographic Kids
(02:31):
Animal Encyclopedia and coeditor of The Rhino with Glue On
Shoes.
Susan Taessent, writer inresidence at Creature Conserv,
is a writer, scholar, andeducator whose fiction has been
published in Blackbird, Diagram,and Tin House online. Today, we
are lucky to have all threeeditors with us. Welcome
Christopher, Lucy, and Susan.Thank you.
Christopher Kondrich (02:54):
So I'd like to begin with what I think
sets our collection CreatureNeeds apart. There are new
poems, stories, and essays thatare published alongside excerpts
from the science that inspiredthem. This juxtaposition comes
out of the work of CreatureConserve. So, yeah, Lucy, I'd
love to hear from you about thisconnection to the organization
(03:16):
you founded, but I'd also likeus to consider how this joining
of literature and science is, tobring us back to the title, what
creatures need given the myriadcrises they're facing right now.
Lucy Spelman (03:29):
Yeah, Chris. What's great to start with
CreatureConserve, you know, it'sa a passion project of mine.
We're ten years in and, theorganization has grown. We are
growing a creative community andthe ideas in that community,
we're all learning, and findinginspiration, new ways to combine
art and science. And theultimate outcome is that each
(03:51):
person involved finds their ownpathway and we call those art
sci pathways.
We're all on our own journey inlife, right? And I think in
terms of taking care of nature,it's not something we all can do
every moment of the day. But wecan find that way in, that
opportunity to get involved. Theidea of creature conserved is to
make that opportunity open toeverybody and especially to
(04:15):
think about the two big fields,I would say, or approaches to
understanding nature. Right?
And one of those is science. I'ma scientist. But the other is
art. Right? And we're basicallyasking the same question in
those areas.
What's happening in the worldaround me? How do I relate to
it? How do I understand it?Taking care of nature and
understanding our relationshipwith animals is both art and
(04:37):
science. It's the idea ofcreature conserves to create
space for that.
And and to recognize it is it'scomplicated, but it's also
intricate and fascinating. Andscience informs some of the
decisions we might make, but sodo our emotions. So I think what
I'm so excited about with thebook is it really demonstrates
all these ways in, you know,through the voices of the
(04:59):
writers and poets. As we readthese works, we get taken down
different pathways. And I alsosee these pathways growing.
Everybody who has contributed tothe book and all of us who read
their works, we all then aremerging our pathways. Right? And
that gives us that many moreways to get involved and to take
better care of each other andthe animals that we see or
(05:20):
interact with on a daily basis,as well as the ones we we might
never see, but we know about andand we care about.
Susan Tacent (05:26):
Yeah. I'm gonna back us up a little bit to a
time when the book did not existyet. It was late May, early June
'20 '20 '1. The pandemic wasstill with us, but we were able
to feel relatively safe inleaving our houses. We were
still masking.
My daughter was moving out afterbeing home for almost two years
(05:48):
to Philadelphia. So she wasgonna be living farther than she
had ever lived from us in herlife, our lives together. And we
got on the train, the two of us,and we had to sit two seats
apart, and we had to be masked.I came home, and I said, I need
a project. I need something todo that will engage me, absorb
me, something I care about.
It has to be something I careabout. It has to be a project
(06:10):
that is big and meaningful. Igave myself that assignment as I
had to learn how to let mydaughter live apart again after
going through that once when shewent away to college. My heart
needed something as well as mymind. I thought, well, I know
nothing better in my lifeexperience than working with
(06:31):
Lucy.
We've been friends for manydecades. We won't count. And I
thought, okay. This there'sgotta be something we can do.
And Lucy, Chris, and I had beenteaching workshops for Creature
Conserve where we used a processthat we worked through and
developed based on what Lucy hadbeen doing with the visual
artists, which was teaching,learning something about the
(06:53):
science, the actual science, howa bird breathes or how a whale
communicates or, you know, howto artificially inseminate an
elephant.
I could not do that if I neededto, but I know it can be done.
And I would know the people toask, which is interesting. Not
everybody can say that. So Isaid, Lucy, let's do a book.
Let's find a bunch ofcontemporary writers and poets
(07:15):
to put through the process thatwe put through in our workshops
and get a book out of it.
And she said, okay. But we haveto ask Chris. We want Chris to
do it. I said, okay. And so wewent to Chris and Chris said a
instant and enthusiastic andbrow creasing yes.
Because you could see Chrisalready was writing the book in
(07:36):
his head and figuring outthings. And so there we had our
project. And, you know, meetingsfollowed and thinking followed
and that wonderful thing thatwriters and artists do all the
time, which is off camerathinking maybe where you're
doing something else and all ofa sudden you realize, woah, we
could do this, that, the otherthing. So the book was born out
(07:58):
of that need to let go of mydaughter, trust that she was
safe, and to nourish myself in ameaningful way. And I think that
the planet right now is askingus to do some version of that
and that we better do it.
We better be I hesitate to usethe word maternal, but it is a
(08:19):
sort of maternity in terms ofcaretaking and listening and
recognition and understandingand respect. And so that's how
the book got started. And then,you know, we thought, well, we
want to ask people to do this.What do we do? We'll send them
articles.
We'll ask Lucy to put articlestogether. We'll set it in The
(08:39):
United States. We will, limit itto writers writing in English.
We'll limit it to poets andwriters who we either know or
want to know, and we will askthem to read the science article
and respond to it. And we won'tgive them instruction, writing
(09:00):
instruction as we might have oreven reading instruction as we
might have in a an actualworkshop.
Right? We will trust that theyhave enough experience and
enough talent and enoughinterest and enough love for the
subject to put somethingtogether. We set word limits. We
set a 3,000 word or 10 pages forpoets. Poets get a little more
elbow room, because of the whitespace on pages.
(09:22):
And we started to make a list ofwhom we might ask. And we
thought about writers and poetswho have experience, sort of,
you know, have talent, have exhave written things that ex that
indicated interest already inthe topic of animal conservation
and the bigger picture ofbasically saving species, saving
(09:44):
planet. And we started emailingpeople, people we knew, people
we had seen read, people wedidn't know, but we knew their
books. There's no pretense. If Iwrote to you and I said I love
your poetry, I it was because Ilove your poetry.
If I met you at a writingworkshop and you blew me away,
asking you something now, thatwas because that's how I was
(10:05):
feeling about your work. And 98%of people said yes. They said it
quickly, and they thanked us.It's not every day that you are
thanked for asking somebody todo something. And, you know,
with every response and, youknow, the emails that went back
between Chris and me, this onesaid yes.
(10:26):
That one said yes. And then wewould tell Lucy, you're not
gonna believe who said yes.Every confirmation was another
heart beat in this project. Youknow, it was like the book, the
book still didn't exist. Itdidn't have a cover.
It didn't have page numbers. Itdidn't have illustrate. You
know, it didn't have all the thescience articles picked. It
didn't have the work, but everyyes was exciting. And then we
(10:48):
sent them an article.
Lucy curated the articles, andI'm gonna ask Lucy to talk a
little bit more about that. ButI do wanna just add one more
thing here at this point aboutthe book coming from the again,
this idea about we're coming outof a pandemic and maybe it's
safe to get a little fartheraway from home, but where where
are we and and what are we doingand how forward? Chris and I
(11:11):
went back and forth about how toorganize the book that didn't
exist yet because if it weregoing to exist, it would have to
have some sort of structure.Right? And you start to
immediately have to makechoices.
And so we came up with somethingvery basic, which Lucy had been
teaching me over and over again.And, Maggie, you've read it
beautifully before. It's thosesix needs that every living
(11:33):
creature requires, which is air,food, water, shelter, room to
move, and each other. Thosebecame the six sections. And
then we asked Lucy to findanimals, creatures, vertebrates,
invertebrates, birds, seacreatures, land creatures, and
we asked her to find articlesfor that.
And then the writers were askedto choose what topic, what what
(11:55):
need they wanted, and then wewould send them an article.
Christopher Kondrich (11:58):
Yeah. I mean, I think that the
collection and that the workthat we did on this collection
is is certainly attempting tocurate the kind of conversation
that I think that we need to behaving as one species on this
planet of millions of species.And that is not only how do we
take care of other species, buthow are the needs of other
(12:19):
species interconnected? So,yeah, I'd love to hear from you,
Lucy, a little bit about youryour thought process about
selecting the articles. Youknow, as we know, the crises
that species are facing aremyriad, are innumerable.
You know, it's hard to thinkabout one problem without having
to grapple with all the otherproblems that are related. And,
(12:41):
you know, it it it often feelsdaunting, especially for people
who are concerned aboutbiodiversity in this world. You
know, another related questionis in terms of, you know,
picking these articles, we'repicking what is the creative
work gonna be coming out of?What is it that we wanna shed
light on? Right?
What do we think is importantout of all of the different
(13:03):
research that's that's out thereand Scott that's coming out, you
know, every single day?
Lucy Spelman (13:08):
Yeah. So I think in terms of the basic needs and
the the selecting of the papers,what I I remember, Chris and
Susan, you guys setting up ameeting with me and being very
excited about, we we know how toorganize the book. And I was
thrilled. I teach. I'm in now myfourteenth year teaching,
biology to art and designstudents at Rhode Island School
of Design.
(13:28):
And what I where I usually beginis our biology connects us.
Right? We are all animals, andwe all need those same basic
things. And yet humans are thedominant species, right? So in
general, we control thoseresources and it's, that's
really the crux of this.
Like, it's really up to uswhether we are all going to have
(13:49):
clean air or clean water,whether we're going to have even
our own species room to moveeach other. So that is for me as
trained in biology and thentrained in geological medicine
and then applying that work inconservation and in teaching and
in my own writing, it's reallythat idea that it's, it's really
beautifully simple. If I'm nothealthy in my world, if I don't
(14:14):
have air, food, water, shelter,room to move in each other, then
the animals in my environmentalso don't. Right? And it works
the other way.
If the animals have those thingsor I can take steps to help
those animals have what theyneed, then I'm, I'm much more
likely to have what I need. So Isee the health of everything is
connected and how also if we youknow, because everything's
(14:36):
connected, any small move in thewrong direction sets off a
ripple, right? A chain reactionthat is not good. And that's
that's largely what humans havebeen doing, a lot of negative
ripples. And we have to at leaststop the ripple to stop things
from getting worse.
And we can actually move thosereactions forward because
everything's connected, right?Because if I make the soil in my
(14:59):
yard healthier, I'm going tohave more earthworms or, and and
and monarch butterflies. And,you know, it's that's the
optimistic view that we can takeadvantage of the fact that our
shared needs connect us. It's sofundamental. It's so obvious in
a way.
But it also, as we weredescribing the work of Creature
Conserved, it's just thebeginning of a pathway. It's a
(15:20):
place to begin. So when Chrisand Susan said, let's organize
the book this way, I was like,okay. So I could look for I
mean, there's so much scientificliterature, right? But I could
pick species, animal species inThe US that are in trouble and
look for recent papers that justfocus on one of those needs.
(15:41):
Maybe just even the title is thefocus because, you know, when
you go read about any animal andit's and what's happening to it,
again, we're all connected. Soall of those potential problems,
whether that's climate change orpollution of the water or not
enough room to not a no corridorleft for the animal to move from
one place to the other. Everysummary of a problem is gonna
(16:02):
touch on all of those needs. Butscience is about honing down and
picking getting very specific.And and that's also kind of the
opportunity.
It's like, well, if we reallylook at how this lizard is being
impacted by this wind farm, whatis really happening? And if you
can really understand what'shappening, then you can pinpoint
that part of the chain. Right?Okay. This is about the wind is
(16:24):
changing the humidity and it'schanging how this creature
lives.
And then you can think about,well, what can we do about it?
That was the first criteria. Andthe second criteria was, yeah,
variety of creatures. And thethird one was, you know, and I
teach non scientists how to gothrough science papers. Like it
has to be a readable paper, somescientific papers, just the way
they're formatted, the way theylook on the page, they're just
(16:46):
really hard to get through.
So a little bit of it was like,there's so much great science
out there as a scientist, butit's, it's hidden, right? It's
in technical language, either ina journal or publicly available
as all the papers we used. Butit's, it's hidden in that we
aren't accessing it. It's notsomething that we would
naturally go to. We meaning thenon scientist community.
(17:07):
And even in my community, like,science has lots of of silos
within it. We don't all readeach other's science. So I some
of the papers just had to bereadable. And there were several
cases where Chris or Susan werelike, yeah, this paper's not
doing it. It's just either theanimal wasn't quite interesting
enough or, like, I think therewas one time, Chris, where we
were like, do we do this animalor that animal?
(17:28):
It's like so that was funbecause we wanted the writers to
be excited. But at the sametime, it is actually limitless.
The possibilities are limitless.And as Susan said, we picked
American Species because we thetwo of you guys really felt like
we can pull in the Americanwriters. But the book is
honestly is a template for thesame book picking 40 species in
(17:52):
East Africa or in Australia, youknow, or in Europe and pulling
people together and looking atwhat's happening.
It wasn't hard to pick thescience, but I think it was a
specific effort. It helped. Ithelped to say, we want to, have
this rubric, if you will. And Ithink at that point, we had no
idea how well it was gonna work.
Susan Tacent (18:15):
Yeah. Can I jump in there? Because I just wanna
talk to the writers who wequeried and who said yes. Just
think for a minute what Lucyjust said about lizard and
humidity and wind farm. Littlelight bulbs go off in the
writer's mind and head and heartbecause that's a story.
That's a poem. That's that'smaterial that we non scientists
(18:37):
wouldn't have had access to. Andsuddenly we have this bit of
information that is kind of mindblowing and important, and we've
got something to work with, andwe realize we have something to
say. We have character. We haveplot.
We have setting. We haveconflict. We have potential
solution. We have understanding.It's the perfect mix of
ingredients for a story or apoem to come out.
(18:57):
I knew that. I knew that fromteaching in person that that was
gonna happen every time somebodygot an article that they
wouldn't have accessedotherwise, and then they knew
what section they were in. And Iwas also, Lucy, thinking about
when when there was one timewhere you changed a creature
from air to water or something,and so, you know, things got
moved around. It was exciting toask you for articles and to know
(19:20):
that we were gonna get the goodscience back.
Christopher Kondrich (19:23):
Yeah. I I'll just say that the poets I
reached out to were just somewhose work inspires me and who I
knew were already thinking aboutthe way in which poetry can
cultivate civic engagement andhow can how, you know, how they
that poetic space can be a spaceof civic engagement, whose work
was already sort of thinkingabout the role that poetry can
(19:45):
play in culture and society, andwhat can poets and poems already
you know, what can they take onas artists and citizens and
private individuals? And sothese things were on my mind. I
did not know what was going tobe coming back or the ways in
which the poems were going tobe, you know, engaging with the
science, whether through form,you know, Sean Hill's poem comes
(20:08):
to mind, or it's through soundand syntax, the, you know,
Helenie Siclianos' poem comes tomind, whether poems were going
to be innovating, you know, interms of form, and language, or
working with perceived formslike, you know, Crick's Endos
Peros' sonnets. I was surprisedby what came back and heartened
because I knew what these poetsand writers were doing was the
(20:32):
work of deriving truth fromfact, Thinking about, you know,
the facts that were in the paperand doing the work that all
writers, all artists do, andthat is to think about how to
distill those facts into atruth, you know, that that's in
the art that's going to movepeople, that's going to stir
people towards further thoughtand and action.
(20:54):
So I was deeply moved andsurprised by what contributors
were able to to write and anddeeply inspiring and and,
honestly, deeply grateful thesecontributors were able to do
this really important work. And,you know, I I'm just so excited
to share this collection withreaders because I think that
they're going to be deeplyinspired by this collaboration
(21:14):
between literature and science.And, you know, and and like you
were saying, Lucy, you know,maybe this is a template. I'm
hoping that it inspires peopleto think about how cross
disciplinary work can not onlybe a driver for the positive
social and political change, butalso can be a really great
opportunity for writers.
Susan Tacent (21:36):
Yeah. I'm gonna I'm gonna add to that. It is it
is an opportunity, and we weregrateful. Every time a piece
came back, and they came backpretty quickly, we we didn't
have to chase too many peopledown. It was like having a
birthday every day.
You know? Look what came in lookwhat came this. It was so
exciting to see the names ofthese writers and poets that you
admire and that you admireusually from afar, and then you
(21:57):
get an email from them with newwriting that it was not been
published, that was inspired byan article that you sent that
Lucy curated about a creaturethat they hadn't thought about
ever probably in their lifebefore and certainly not in
those terms. And then, you know,to know intuitively and then
realize that we were puttingtogether a workbook or a journal
(22:20):
for people because the wonderfulfolks at University of Minnesota
Press designed this book in waysthat we could not have dreamt up
ourselves. And we are so excitedabout the look of it from cover
to cover and everything inside.
It's just this perfect balanceof the writing, the science, the
illustrations, the categories.It's really a dream come true
(22:44):
from a design point of view, andit's got places where a reader
could write in it. And it it'sbecause of the way it's set up,
you could pick up the bookanywhere and read about, say,
all the creatures that live inthe sky before you went back to
and you could go through it thatway or you could go through it
by only sea creatures. Or youcould read the science excerpt
(23:07):
and then write your own pieceand then read what somebody else
did, which is pretty exciting todo from a creative writing point
of view and from a writingworkshop point of view, but also
just from an interacting withthe science and the creativity
and your own planet. There'ssome creature for everybody in
there.
You know, we've all seen some ofthem or we've heard of some of
(23:29):
them. And what a gift to hearabout one that you didn't know
about or to find out how thisworks or how a respiratory
system in a creature works thatisn't a human creature. I still
am amazed that there was a timebefore the book existed. We have
hard copies in our hands, so weknow it's real. You know, from
those very first, yes, I wouldlove to do that, like, I wrote
(23:51):
to Charles Baxter.
Baxter. He's become a friend, soit was like, dear Charlie, will
you do this? And he said, yes.And I said, well, what category
do you want? And he said, youpick.
And I said, okay. And I pickedair, and I picked an article
about fireflies, and I sent itto him. And the next day, he
wrote back, dear Susan, you sentme fireflies, and this is what
(24:14):
happened. And there was thisbeautiful page and a half long
piece, and it opens the book,and it's just magnificent. Annie
Hartnett, we sent her polarbears, and she said, oh, no.
I was hoping not to get polarbears. And I said, I know, but
you could do it. And she wrotethis gorgeous story about a co
an elderly couple and who's thewife doesn't want to upset the
(24:37):
husband, so she cuts articlesout of the paper before she
gives it to him to read. And,you know, she did it. She did
the polar bear justice, andthat's the thing, you know,
because we were fortunate enoughto be able to contact writers
who are so talented and and haveso much investment in the
survival of this planet.
We got back beautiful pieces,you know, with a lot of heart.
(24:59):
It's just like watching someamazing seed that you planted
and looking out the window, andthere's this garden there that
is just thriving and diverse andhealthy and hopeful.
Lucy Spelman (25:13):
Yes. Susan, I you know, I think something we've
all the three of us have talkedabout and kind of the core at
Creature Conserv is that this isa tough topic. Right? Wildlife
populations all over the worldare declining, and the reason is
us. Right?
Human impacts are causing this.It is a mass extinction, and
it's not easy to think about orfeel. Distilling truth from
(25:35):
fact, finding your own way toconnect with this this topic.
You know, the science can say xnumber of polar bears, this is
what's gonna happen. The sciencecan predict the climate change,
but it's really the art thatlets us internalize that and
connect with it and taps intoour emotions and our
subconscious.
And, you know, it also gives theproblem, if you will, context.
(25:57):
You know, we all have differentcultures, different life
experience. We spend differentamounts of time in nature from,
you know, almost none to a lot.And so those those are all
things that affect how you dealwith this topic. For me, the
book has a similar potentialimpact as the exhibitions that
we put on at Creature Conserved.
As you mentioned, we started ourfirst programs were bringing
visual artists together to learnfrom, scientists and other
(26:20):
experts in conservation. Andwe've had four major exhibits
now, 30 or 40 visual artistsmaking work around a topic,
learning from experts, spendingtime in the field, you know,
different amounts of science.That's all great. But when you
would watch people come into theexhibit, it's a lot to take in
40 artworks around how weconflict with urban wildlife or
how we use animals in thewildlife trade or even just the
(26:44):
fact that we have this thingthat is extinction happening.
And people would just be drawnto one or two pieces, maybe
three.
You know, we all have adifferent aesthetic. We're all
feeling differently on a givenday. And to have the choice to
say, yeah, I wanna watch thisshort film, or I wanna just go
up to that sculpture and hangout with it. Or in this case, I
just I just want to take in onepoem. I think this is really
(27:06):
important that we all havechoices.
That's what I was alluding tobefore in our pathways. It
doesn't have to always be all infront of us at every moment. But
we do need to have ways that wecan engage with this topic. We
could say that the science, theknowledge that says we're
animals too, and we need ahealthy planet. Right?
(27:26):
That's pure science. But whathelps us take that in and make
it feel real, and make us maybewanna make a different decision
about how we live our lives andthe impact we have on the
planet, it's really through thearts. And, you know, artists
have always been interpreters ofour time, whether that's music
or performance, writing. Andthis is, again, if the book is a
(27:48):
template or a prompt, as Susanwas saying, or for a classroom
or anyone. The more and more andmore and more this engagement
with our relationship with otheranimals and the fact that we can
put our finger on a spot in thatchain reaction and make a
decision about whether we wantto change the outcome, I think
it becomes a lot more just partof day to day life and rather
(28:09):
than some big challenge thatsomebody else is gonna solve.
I think we were talking earlierabout, you know, the
subcategories, what's causingextinction, right? They're huge.
Climate change, you know,resource extraction, habitat
loss, global trade, emergingdiseases, the way we farm, the
way we hunt. Even those are justbig, big categories. And it's
(28:30):
it's easier to just startsomewhere much more specific
like that lizard or any of theother or the polar bear.
And I think we are fascinatedwith what the experience was of
the writers who participatedbecause the process is is more
important, really. We can engageand we can think about this
together and we can make alittle shift in our behavior
(28:51):
together. And that's what that'swhat Creature Conserv is all
about, is supporting thatprocess and helping people
who've never done this beforeand never thought about bringing
art and science together or eventaking in something that's art
and science together. Justsaying, Hey, come see. This is a
new way to engage with thistopic.
It's hard. It's hard work. Andthe writing is so beautiful. And
(29:13):
again, I sit as the scientist,not as the one with that amazing
talent of our writers or thevisual artists. I'm always
fascinated with what thatprocess is like and how they
went from that science to theactual writing piece.
Christopher Kondrich (29:26):
Well, you know, we get bombarded with
information on a daily basis,and even the most passionate and
dedicated of us are taking ininformation on such a regular
basis, we move on from it. We goabout our day having learned
something, whether it's thescience that we're learning
about species or issues that areclimate change related, we move
(29:49):
on. And I'm, you know, thinkingabout this title, creature
needs, what these creatures needis for us to not move on. In
order for us to actually grapplewith the issues and these
squeeze questions of our impact,in order to actually make the
policy and and social changesthat we need to make. And, you
(30:09):
know, I think that that's whatthey really need.
And, you know, I, for one, needthe writers in these collections
to help me remember, to move me,because I, you know, I can't
move on from an incredible poem.I can't move on from a story or
a beautifully written lyricessay. The information that is
(30:29):
conveyed through literature issomething that stays with me,
and it's much harder for me toshake it if it stirs me, if it
moves me. What I reallyappreciate about this collection
is that you read the science,and then that science is
integrated into the literaturethat is there too, and the
(30:49):
literature by our extraordinarycontributors makes it stick so
that you can't shake it. Theother thing that I wanted to say
is that it's just reallyimportant to me for there to be
aesthetic diversity, for thereto be diversity across, the
voices of of writers and livedexperiences that are collected
in, you know, in this bookbecause it's gonna be even more
(31:11):
difficult to shake off a poem ora story from one page to the
next as you're reading thecollection if they're coming at
it from from all differentaesthetic directions.
I think that that's what makesthis book so incredibly dynamic,
but also really important, isthat we have such diversity of
voices and of writers that arehelping this information really
(31:34):
be be unshakable.
Susan Tacent (31:36):
Yeah. We worked hard to ensure that diversity
for those reasons that Chris hasjust delineated so beautifully.
And at some point, wanted to saysomewhere in the book, this is
not an anthology. We settled onthe word collection. We love the
polyvocal call for change thatMinnesota came up with.
It's a map in a way of thewriters and poets who live all
(32:00):
over the country and travel allover the world. It's a map of
the creatures who are featured,examined, considered, responded
to in the book. One of thethings I love about it is the
idea that until each contributorhas read the entire book, they
only see their tiny little pieceof the map. And until a reader
(32:24):
comes to the book and reads theentire book, they've only seen
one tiny little piece of themap. And to go back to creature
conserves emphasis on connectionand how we are all connected and
how we are all animals, humans,and, you know, rhinoceroses and
octopuses, all same six needspretty much in different, you
(32:46):
know, doses, I guess.
When we see that map fill in,even though it's just part of
the planet, it's still going togive the clearest picture that I
can think of off the top of myhead of what we're facing and
how interconnected everything isand what needs to be done.
Because, again, as Chris andLucy have been saying, because
(33:08):
we are getting at it from notonly the science, but also the
intellect and the heart becausesome of these pieces have an
emotional component to them.Some of them have an
intellectual you know, they theyhave all the the good stuff that
we want in our literature. Oncewe experience that, I think
there is a deeper understandingand perhaps a willingness to
(33:30):
slow down and to figure out waysto help rather than run away or
hide or simply cry, which on anygiven day is not a terrible
response, but is not going toultimately get us to where we
want to be.
Lucy Spelman (33:47):
Yes. I I was just going to echo both of what you
guys said and that we all havecreatures that are proximal to
us. Like, what creature did yousee today? Did you think twice
about how its day went? Youknow?
It's okay that we're we arehuman, so we are social
creatures, and we are thinkingabout each other. But we're also
a visual species. We seecreatures, and we really are
(34:09):
purposely not engaging with themwhen we see, let's say, a
squirrel or a robin if we'rehere in the Northeast. But what
if you did engage? Right?
And Susan, that's one of the,exercises we do with one of our
teaching workshops is theprompt, if I have this right,
Susan is, you know, pick ananimal that you saw on your way
to the to to this workshop oryou saw in the morning of the
workshop and imagine what washappening to it at that moment.
(34:32):
And I think that may seem justvery esoteric, but it's it's a
step toward feeling thatconnection and sharing, yeah,
your own existence with anonhuman animal. Hanging out
with creatures is not for justfor kids. Right? It helps us as
adults and the book as much aswe hope everybody of every age
reads it.
But it this is for us, those ofus who are making decisions on a
(34:56):
day to day basis about how wewanna use our resources. And I
think animals are a way in, andit can be fascinating.
Curiosity, being open, beingcurious, and being present.
Right? If you're if you're openand curious and present about
nature around you in the moment,you can manage that.
If you start to think about it,all of it all at once, it can be
(35:17):
too much.
Susan Tacent (35:18):
Yeah. I I ran into a local contributor, and I asked
Jody what Jody Vinton, what wasit like to write about owls? And
she she had a a bunch of answersthat I thought were wonderful,
but one of the things she saidis she'll never forget the, idea
of the owls wearing tiny littlebackpacks they were fitted with
so that they could be part of aresearch experiment. And so now,
(35:39):
of course, I now picture owlswith tiny little backpacks, and
I get to think about that. Andthen I get to think about what
would an owl be?
What were they looking for? Whatwere the science questions? And
what did they find out. Itpiques my curiosity. It piques
my creative impulse.
And and, Lucy, the writingexercise, we developed that for
urban wildlife, the workshop onurban wildlife learning to
(36:00):
coexist. And we asked them, sowho'd you meet on your way in?
Was it a squirrel? Was it ahawk? Was it a crow?
You know, was it a snail? Andthen we asked them to write, you
know, what do you think theywere up to? And what would you
ask them? If you could speak tothem, what would you ask them,
and what would you wish forthem? And, you know, you're in a
room full of people who selfselected to take this workshop,
(36:21):
and so you know that it's reallyeasy to make them cry by telling
them a sad story about animals.
It's really easy to make themsay awe and laugh if you tell
them kind of a funny story aboutanimals because animals are
endlessly amusing. And it'sreally easy to make them care
because they already care. Itwas just a room full of, like,
(36:41):
sparkling responses and andpeople talking amongst
themselves about what creaturesthey saw. And just also asking
them to think about and afterthe workshops, asking people to
go outside and interact a littlebit. And, you know, the book is
gonna do that too.
It's I hope it's gonna giveimpetus toward engaging, which
is what we're really talkingabout here in a way. Right?
Christopher Kondrich (37:01):
Yeah. This conversation about what what the
creative work in this collectionis doing, you know, sort of,
gearing us towards the present,makes me think of this excellent
essay, by Chelsea Steiner orScudder that was published in
Emergence magazine called TheLord God Bird. And she writes at
one point, quote, what if wedidn't jump straight into
(37:22):
resignation, but turned awayfrom a future ending and toward
the present, toward that whichis immediately around us?
Perhaps this is the real work tobe done here now. You know, and
I think that that's kind of whatthis this collection is doing
because there is the solution.
This collection is very muchinterested in trying to seek out
(37:43):
solutions that the science isoffering us. And part of that
solution is becoming rooted inthe present that is immediately
around us through the creativework. There's this writer whose
work I really love, JedidiahPurdy, and he asks a question in
an essay. His essay is calledThinking Like a Mountain, and it
(38:04):
was published in n plus one.And, this question that I I keep
thinking about, you know, yearin and year out after I've read
it, he writes, what is lookingback at us through other
species' eyes?
Could we ever escape our ownheads and know the viewpoint of
a hawk? Is there such a thing asthinking like a mountain? The
(38:29):
way I think about thesequestions is could we ever
escape our own heads and knowthe viewpoint of a hawk? Of
course not. Of course not.
But I think that the act oftrying is really important
because it helps us todeemphasize the human
(38:54):
centeredness that I think is atthe root and cause of
biodiversity loss, theanthropocentrism that's at the
root of of the myriad crisesfacing all these species. I
think we have to try. I don'tthink anybody is going to read a
novel that's in the voice of ahawk and actually believe that
(39:14):
that novel is capturing exactlywhat the consciousness of a hawk
is like. But that is an act ofempathy that is integral, that
is deeply compassionate andessential to living equitably on
a planet of million species. Sothat's how I think about that
question.
(39:34):
I I don't know. I would I wouldlove love to hear your response
to the to the party quote.
Susan Tacent (39:40):
Yeah. It's also willingness to walk across the
divide, the apparent divide.Right? To take a step over that
line that we think is there thatwe that we don't realize that
we're drawing and that isperhaps a false boundary.
Lucy Spelman (39:54):
Yeah. I agree with that. But I think it's also
about creating space to learnwhat it's like to be a hawk or a
mountain and then to shareempathy
Christopher Kondrich (40:02):
or
Lucy Spelman (40:02):
express empathy. And then what ideas come from
that, right? It's that idea thatit's accessible to all of us.
We're all part of nature. And Ithink it that quote goes beyond
we're all animals.
It goes we're all part ofnature. Right? We are as much of
nature as a mountain is. So Ifind it, you know, this is
sounds so simple again, but ifwe begin there, okay, yeah, we
(40:26):
are part of that mountain and wehave a stake in whether that
mountain persists or not. Andthat's the beginning of feeling
empowered.
We can't imagine exactly whatthat hawk is seeing, but we
could try. That puts us in thepresent and empowers us to feel
like we can participate in evenjust the knowing, not
necessarily the solving of aproblem. Right? In wildlife
(40:48):
conservation and in in any bigsort of effort, societal effort
to solve a big problem, it canbe overwhelming. Again, we
talked about this earlier.
And I think it can be sooverwhelming that it feels like
that's somebody else's job, thennothing happens, or it feels
like there's a prescribed way ofbehaving. And I think what I
love about, this quote and thebook and exhibits that we
(41:11):
support at Creature Goods orreally all of the programs we
support is it's notprescriptive. There is no one
way. There is no this is how youdo, this is how you help
wildlife. We're all here on thisplanet where there's many, many
ways and we can all make achoice and find that path.
I have one question for Chrisand Susan again, just thinking
about as the book comes out andwe are excited to organize with
(41:35):
with the University of MinnesotaPress some book launches and
some readings. What do you guysthink or hope will happen once
the book is out there?
Susan Tacent (41:44):
I hope they all join hands and start a
revolution, but that's just afantasy. We don't know what it
was like for them. We only knowwhat we got back from them. It's
an opportunity to let the bookcontinue to do its work, I
think, for people, right, andfor creatures. So I think it's
just, again, just the beginningof this magic garden that we've
(42:05):
planted and that they'veplanted, and I think it's gonna
be amazing.
Christopher Kondrich (42:09):
I, for one, am I'm really looking
forward to this book being outin the world, and and, of
course, to the events that thatcontributors I can be having.
But, of course, I mean, I'm I'mI'm I really want this to
actually do have an impact. Andwhat I'm I'm hoping that this
book will inspire people tothink about are the ways in
(42:31):
which biodiversity loss and andthe the the challenges that
species are facing, that it'sit's happening all around us.
It's local. I'm hoping that thatthis collection will inspire
folks to find out ways in whichthey can be of some use in their
local ecosystem, in their localcommunity.
Lucy Spelman (42:52):
Yeah. I could add to that, Chris, because I think
at at Creature Conserv, we talka lot about that pathway is not
a short term. Sometimes it's itcan take months to years to find
that way in. Right? So I thinkthe expectation that I have is
start somewhere.
I think that's what you'resaying. It's the book as a
starting point. The call iswildlife populations are
declining. The response iscreature needs. The response is
(43:16):
let's say, hey, we can all trysomething new.
We can combine art and science.We can find our way into this
topic. So it's an invitation torespond in a way that makes
sense to whoever you are. Andagain, it has there's no
prescription other than, youknow, right here, right now, we
we need to do something. Andthere's so many ways, so many
(43:36):
things you can do.
Susan Tacent (43:37):
Yeah. Lucy and and and, Chris, I think the science
and that the science is not overour heads, and it's not out of
reach, and it's not going tohurt us. And we can access it,
and we can use it to help. Andit can activate us, motivate us,
inform us.
Narrator (43:57):
This has been a University of Minnesota Press
production. The book, CreatureNeeds, Writers Respond to the
Science of Animal Conservationis available from University of
Minnesota Press. Thank you forlistening.
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