Public history, memory, and building a tribal archive.

The story of the Stockbridge-Munsee Mohican Nation and its Historical Committee—and its fifty-year fight to recover and rewrite its history—is the focus of Rose Miron’s award-winning book Indigenous Archival Activism. Miron’s research and writing are shaped by materials found in the tribal archive and ongoing conversations as part of her more-than-a-decade-long reciprocal relationship with the Stockbridge-Munsee Mohican Nation. Miron is not Mohican and is careful to consider her own positionality and reflects on what it means for non-Native researchers and institutions to build reciprocal relationships with Indigenous nations in the content of academia and public history, offering a model both for tribes undertaking their own reclamation projects and for scholars looking to work with tribes in ethical ways. Here, Miron is joined in conversation with Jennifer O’Neal.

Rose Miron is vice president of research and education at Newberry Library in Chicago and author of Indigenous Archival Activism: Mohican Interventions in Public History and Memory, winner of the National Council for Public History Book Award and the Book of Merit Award from the Wisconsin Historical Society.

Jennifer O’Neal is assistant professor and director of undergraduate studies in the Department of Indigenous, Race, and Ethnic Studies at the University of Oregon.

Praise for the book:

“A necessary volume on the intersection of Indigenous knowledge loss, recovery, and production in the context of settler colonialism.”
—Jacki Thompson Rand, Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign

“a must-read for archivists, researchers, and tribal historians working with/in Indian Country.”
—Shannon Martin, Lynx Clan, Match-E-Be-Nash-She-Wish Band of Pottawatomi Indians; former director, Ziibiwing Center of Anishinabe Culture and Lifeways

Indigenous Archival Activism: Mohican Interventions in Public History and Memory by Rose Miron is available from University of Minnesota Press.

Episode Transcript

Jennifer O'Neal (00:04):
I really feel the work that was begun with the
protocols was really the startof indigenous data sovereignty
movement.

Rose Miron (00:13):
Archival materials are so important for this work.
If Native people don't haveaccess to them and if they're
being interpreted withoutIndigenous knowledge, they're
not going to create the kind ofnew narratives that we should be
creating.
There. I'm Rose Miron. I am the Vice President
for Research and Education atthe Newberry Library in Chicago,
and I am the author of the bookIndigenous Mohican Interventions

(00:37):
in Public History and Memory.I'm really excited to be in
conversation today with JenniferO'Neill, and I think we're both
just going to start thisrecording by saying a little bit
about our professionalbackgrounds and our research
interests. So I'll just startout by saying I'm a non native
historian.
I have bachelor's in history anda PhD in American studies from
the University of Minnesota. Andsince finishing my PhD, I have

(01:01):
spent the bulk of myprofessional life at the
Newberry Library. But I workedfor the National Native American
Boarding School HealingCoalition between graduate
school and coming to theNewberry. And that certainly
played a big role in how I thinkabout archival collections. And
my kind of main role there wasthinking about the digital
archive that they have nowlaunched and doing a lot of the

(01:23):
kind of behind the scenes workon that before it became public.
I started at the Newberry in2019 as the director of the
Darcy McNichol Center forAmerican Indian and Indigenous
Studies. And I was in that rolefor about five and a half years
before moving into my currentposition as the Vice President
for Research and Education. Myresearch interests overall are
about indigenous history in theGreat Lakes in the Northeast,

(01:46):
particularly as it relates topublic history and memory. And
I'm just excited to be in thisconversation today about my book
and to be in conversation withJennifer whose work I have
really admired for a long time.So I will pass it over to you,
Jennifer.

Jennifer O'Neal (02:00):
Yes, I'm also very excited to be in
conversation with you today,Rose. I'm Jennifer O'Neal. I'm
an assistant professor in theDepartment of Indigenous Race
and Ethnic Studies at theUniversity of Oregon. And I'm
also affiliated faculty with theHistory Department and Robert D.
R.
Clark Honors College. I've beenhere at the University of Oregon

(02:20):
for over twelve years. And priorto that, similar to Rose, I've
also served in a variety ofdifferent capacities. And
particularly before being in mycurrent department, I also
served as the universityhistorian and archivist here at
our university library. Andprior to coming back home to

(02:43):
Oregon, I also served as thehead archivist at the National
Museum of the American Indianand worked with some incredible
collections there, as well asserved as an archivist and
historian at the US StateDepartment, as well as served as
a lot of other repositories aswell as I was going through my

(03:03):
education.
My area of research is reallyfocused on this
interdisciplinary intersectionof Native American and
international relations historyin the twentieth century to the
present, with an emphasis onsovereignty, self determination,
cultural heritage, globalindigenous rights, archival
activism, and legal issues. SoI'm very much excited to be able

(03:28):
to talk about a lot of ouroverlapping research areas and
be able to expand on a lot ofthe work that we've both been
doing in this area of indigenousarchival activism. So I'm very
excited to be able to talk withRose today, particularly about
her new book. And really what wehope to do today with this

(03:48):
conversation is not only for youto hear a lot more about her
incredible book and really theexperiences that she had in
writing this book and being incommunity with the folks that
she worked with, is to reallycome to know and understand some
of the real challenges thattribal communities face when
building their own archives andthe activism that's involved

(04:12):
with that. I'm a member of theConfederated Tribes of Grand
Ronde, which is one of the ninefederally recognized tribes here
in Oregon.
I know firsthand a lot of themajor challenges that tribal
communities face, not onlyworking with my own tribal
community, but also in workingwith tribes across the state. So
I'm very excited to be inconversation today. Rose, with

(04:35):
large booked projects like this,of course, not only are we
seeing the incredible finalproduct, but we know so much
goes into doing this work, manyyears of building partnerships
and relationships and even juststarting this project in your
graduate career. So could youshare a little bit with us about
how this project first startedand particularly how you began

(04:57):
to build and relationships withthe Stockbridge Muncie
community.

Rose Miron (05:02):
Yeah, absolutely. You know, the development of my
relationship with the communityis such a big part of the book.
So I think it always is a greatplace to start the conversation.
This book actually started as myundergraduate thesis. The
University of Minnesota, thereis a program that encourages
undergrads to work on primarysource research with a faculty
member.
And I had the very good fortuneof getting to work with Doctor.

(05:27):
Jean O'Brien, who is a professorat the University of Minnesota
and is a very esteemed scholarwithin the field of Native
American and Indigenous studies.And so I was introduced to this
oral history project that theStockbridge Muncie community was
working on at the time. I grewup in Northeastern Wisconsin,
but I was pretty largelyunfamiliar with the Mohican

(05:51):
nation and definitely wasn'taware kind of work that they
were doing to reshape theirhistory. And so when I was
introduced to this oral historyproject, which was all about
kind of pushing back againstthat myth that they had
disappeared.
The title of the series waslike, we are still here, hear
our voices. And so I was reallyinterested in just like that

(06:11):
effort to really directlyaddress and attack that
disappearance narrative andbasically kind of started going
to the public airings of theoral history project. And at
that point began talking withfolks that I was meeting at that
event and building myrelationship with the

(06:35):
Stockbridge Muncie community.And of course, many of the folks
who worked in the tribal archiveand museum where these videos
were being shown were part ofthe Stockbridge Muncie
Historical Committee. And so asI'd be able to continue to kind
of come to the library and watchthese recordings, they really
encouraged me to look at thearchives and to look at some of

(06:56):
these other materials.
And that eventually led to mebeing invited to attend one of
the historical committeemeetings. And it really just
sort of opened this conversationof what I was sort of interested
in looking at, but also whatthey were interested in having
written about. At that point,nobody had really written a
narrative of the history of thehistorical committee, of history

(07:19):
of how this archive was created.And so my historical committee
was really interested in havingthat story written. And I, of
course, became very interestedin that as well.
As soon as I sort of realizedthat this one oral history
project, which is what I wrotemy undergraduate thesis about,
was really part of this muchlarger initiative related to the

(07:39):
tribal archive. And so togetherwe discussed the idea about me
going to graduate school andkind of pursuing this as a
dissertation project. And thenwe really just kind of set up a
series of, not necessarilyguidelines. We didn't actually
sit down and draft them oranything like that. But it was
just sort of an iterativeprocess of having a conversation

(08:01):
about what is this relationshipgonna look like?
And really making sure thatreciprocity was at the center of
it. It was really agreed upon atthe front of me even applying to
graduate school that as Icontinued to work on this
project, I was going to beshowing up and coming into the
community to not only doresearch, but to meet with the
historical committee and toshare my findings with them. As

(08:23):
I continued to do that and giveupdates, the historical
committee eventually asked me toconduct some oral interviews.
And so that became part of theproject. And that led to working
with the legal department toreally think about, you know,
how do these oral interviews getconducted in a way where the
tribe retains control over thesestories?
And then I think it, you know,naturally evolved to, okay,
like, I'm gonna go out to theEast Coast and do some research.

(08:46):
How can I help bring morematerials back to the archive,
the tribal archive that thetribe has not been able to scan
yet? So it just sort ofdeveloped organically over time
in terms of what the needs ofthe communities were, what I was
seeing in the archive, andreally just kind of became this
reciprocal relationship in whichwe are both working together to

(09:09):
tell this story. And I thinkthat really has continued, you
know, into the present and intomy current work with the
community. I think it was a bigpart of the book even getting
published, you know, as we weregoing through that conversation
and getting explicit permissionfrom tribal council, like making
sure that all of the bookroyalties got set up to go back

(09:31):
directly to the tribe and justthinking about like, what do
public events for this book looklike?
So I think it's just a, itreally just developed into an
ongoing collaboration andconversation that has continued
to evolve and develop and growthroughout the now fifteen years
of this project's life.

Jennifer O'Neal (09:49):
Yeah, that's such an incredible story of just
how that partnership andrelationship evolved over those
many years and how you continueto have that incredible
partnership with the community.And of course, anytime you do a
huge project like this and focuson Native history and activism,
Of course, any project like thisis also connected to place and

(10:12):
memory. For those people whomight not be familiar with the
specific history of thiscommunity, can you tell us a
little bit about why place andmemory and particularly where
Stockbridge Muncie people arecoming from and these different
histories and areas that they'retrying to gather their records
from and the different timesthey've been removed. And I

(10:33):
think it's helpful for people tounderstand why that's so
important to this project andwhy place is so important to
this project.

Rose Miron (10:42):
Yeah, absolutely. So the homelands of the Stockbridge
Munsee Mohican community are onthe East Coast of what is now
The United States, kind of oneither side of the Mahikanatuck
River, which is now called theHudson River. And prior to
contact with Europeans, theylived in that area and had

(11:02):
relationships, of course, withother tribes across the area.
And it was with the arrival ofEuropeans that, of course, their
lives began to shift quitedrastically. And so the kind of
first initial shift happens inthe eighteenth century when they
accept a mission in, there inwhat was an already existing

(11:24):
village, called Bonattica, butis now known as Stockbridge,
Massachusetts.
And they accepted a missionthere with John Sargent. And so
people will hear a lot aboutStockbridge as a town throughout
the book. It comes up a lot justin terms of like where this
history is represented on theEast Coast. And that's because
it's sort of like the firstmajor relationships that are

(11:44):
built between European settlersand Stockbridge Munsee folks.
And it's where a lot of the kindof initial conversion starts to
begin.
We see that a lot throughout thebook. I won't go into like every
kind of step of the story, but Iwill say overall between the
late eighteenth century andreally into the mid twentieth
century, the tribe is removedseven different times. First to

(12:08):
Upstate New York, then down intowhat is now Indiana, and then
into Wisconsin, and into variousparts of Wisconsin. And it
really wasn't until the midtwentieth century that they were
able to kind of regain the fullreservation that they were
promised as part of the treatiesthat removed them. So, what we

(12:29):
see is this series of multipleremovals across several
centuries.
And with each of those removals,of course, there are archival
materials that are created aboutthe Sacrificance community,
whether they're created bytribal members themselves,
whether they're created by nonnative actors who are

(12:49):
interacting with them. And so wesee that the kind of archival
historical record of thiscommunity is really scattered
across not only Wisconsin wherethe tribe is based now, but also
kind of all across the SouthernGreat Lakes and then up into the
Northeast. And so I think thatmakes for a very challenging

(13:10):
project in terms of recoveringone's history and in terms of
thinking about how a communitystarts to go about getting that
information back and making itmore accessible to their own
community members. And so Ithink that context is extremely
important just in thinkingabout, like, what this
initiative looked like for them.I'll also just say that I the, I

(13:33):
think a lot of listeners areprobably familiar with either
the book or the movie, The Lastof the Mohicans.
And so this community inparticular has really, really
suffered from this, thisnarrative that indigenous people
have disappeared. I mean, thinkall indigenous nations certainly
have suffered from the sort oflast of the Mohicans myth, this

(13:55):
idea that as Western settlementexpanded, native people no
longer exist and they justdisappear. But that last of the
Mohicans trope is very specificto this community. I saw
throughout so many of thedocuments where tribal members
are going back to the EastCoast, that they are very
frequently faced with people whoare saying like, oh, I thought
you people no longer existedbecause of James Van Horn

(14:16):
Cooper. And so I think that alsojust plays a really big role
into how we see them not onlyrecover these archival
materials, but also theirefforts to then change the way
that their history isrepresented in these public
spaces and really make theirongoing survival and their
ongoing connection to theirhomelands, even though they were
forced to leave their homelandsto make those ongoing

(14:38):
connections known.

Jennifer O'Neal (14:40):
Yeah, that's such a great overview,
especially for people who don'tknow about the history of the
movement of this community andthe Stockbridge Muncie Mohican
community that has really foughtso hard to tell this history.
And of course, that's the hugepart of this book is the
incredible work of thecommunity, particularly women

(15:01):
who work at the center ofpreserving this history,
documenting this history. Andalthough this had been going on
for, you know, in differentiterations over many years, as
you know throughout the book, Itparticularly comes to a head in
the late 60s and early 70s. Ijust want to turn to the cover

(15:22):
of your book for IndigenousArchival Activism, has this
incredible image of all of thesewomen sitting around the table
from the historical societycoming together and working in
this room together with allthese documents around them. I'm
hoping you could tell us moreabout these women and really how

(15:43):
you came to know their story.
What is unique about the storyof these women, particularly
about many of the women whoreally fought to save these
records?

Rose Miron (15:54):
Yeah, absolutely. So I think, you know, the two women
that are really at the center ofthis story and are both kind of
pictured in that cover image areBernice Miller and Dorothy
Davids. And Bernice and Dorothyare sisters. So they have, you
know, obviously grown uptogether and have this shared
interest in making sure that thetribe's history is preserved and

(16:19):
taught. And Bernice was marriedto Arvid Miller, who just before
the historical committee wasfounded, Arvid had died.
But for the last thirty or soyears, I believe prior to that,
he served as the tribalchairman. And so, really kind of
from the moment of the IndianReorganization Act in the 1930s,

(16:39):
ARVID was kind of stepping intotribal leadership and like
tribal council meetings werebeing held in his and Bernice's
home, there was an immediatesort of start of archiving, you
know, meeting minutes and othermaterials. And tribal leaders at
that time started to actuallytravel to different archives and
try to gather information inorder to be prepared to go

(17:01):
through the IndianReorganization Act. That at that
point, like in the 1930s, youknow, they were looking for
maps, different kinds ofgovernment documents to really
highlight this kind of ongoingrelationship that they had had
with the federal government inorder to create an IRA
constitution. So ARBET is a bigpart of that work.
And though it doesn't show upnecessarily on the page, I think

(17:23):
Bernice probably was too, as,his wife and as somebody who was
the one kind of organizing allof those archival materials in
their home. And over the kind ofthirty or so years that Arvid
then served as a tribal leader,he continued to do some of that
traveling to different archives.And he would come home with

(17:43):
these copies of materials andBernice was the one sort of
organizing them, and makingsense of them all. So she kind
of had that background assomebody who was organizing
those materials. And it wasalways her and Arvid's dream to
create a formal, you know,library and museum that was more
accessible to tribal membersoutside of, you know, just being
in their home.

(18:04):
And the sort of literal sparkthat happened to kind of create
the historical committee wasthat shortly after Arvid's
death, Bernice's home caughtfire. And so all of these
materials that they had beencollecting for the last several
decades, you know, nearly wentup into flames. But neighbors
actually rushed into the houseto save all of the documents
that they had been collectingand that they had located in

(18:27):
other archives and copied andcarried them out before they
were lost to the fire, which Ithink is just a huge testament
to how important these materialswere to not only Bernice, but
also to the larger community whoimmediately sort of recognized
that they needed to be saved.And so after the materials were
rescued from this fire, Bernicestarted working with Dorothy,

(18:49):
her sister, and other women inthe community to really kind of
make this dream into a reality.Thinking about how do we make
this into a actual publiclibrary archive museum?
And Dorothy had a background ineducation. She was teaching at
the University of WisconsinExtension, and had a background
in really social justice basededucation. And so she kind of

(19:11):
brought that aspect of herbackground to the historical
committee. And I think togetherthat is what really formed this
very unique committee that tookon a lot of things really from
the get go, from locating andcopying and bringing back
additional archival materials,but then also really thinking
about how do we use thesematerials to change

(19:34):
representations of history andto better educate both native
and non native publics aboutStockbridge Muncie history. And
the other women in this photorange from, you know, other
relatives.
Some of them are Bernice'sdaughters. Sheila Miller is in
that video. Molly Miller andLeah Miller are not in the
photo, but they become reallyimportant historical committee

(19:54):
members as well. And then wehave a number of other women in
the community who come togetherto start to do this work. And I
think, you know, as I, as I wentthrough the project, this was
one of the things that I thinkthe historical committees
members themselves really helpedme understand just in thinking
about like what the role ofwomen is in the community in

(20:15):
terms of passing on, languageand especially, education and
kind of being responsible forthe education of future tribal
members.
And you know, that's notsomething that showed up super
plainly in the archive, but itwas something that I came to
understand from talking to thesewomen as to why it was a group
of women who sort of took upthis initiative.

Jennifer O'Neal (20:37):
Yeah, such incredible work that they did.
And something so surprising tome as I read your work and
hearing about just what thiscommunity was doing was they're
really at the forefront of doingwhat today we refer to as the
return of collections or digitalrepatriation. They were really

(20:57):
at the forefront or going out ontheir own to actually find the
documents, copy them. And as youmentioned, whether it was the
women or ARVA doing the work,but they would often also have
to transcribe them by handbecause they couldn't have them
copied. So just the amount oflabor that went into this is

(21:20):
just incredible, as well as theinnovative ways that they were
coming up with to get thoserecords back, whether if they
couldn't do it physically, theywere doing it intellectually,
and that they were trying to beso innovative in the ways that
they were doing.
It was also incredible. Inaddition to that, they were also
what I found really amazing inthe way they were forward

(21:44):
thinking with doing this work,not only returning the archives
and going out to get thosecollections, but also when they
did receive either a copy orthey had a book in their
collection that how they wouldalso have like a bibliography
and an index. Can you tell me alittle bit more about that or
what, maybe what was one of yourmost interesting, interactions

(22:06):
about that or something maybethat you found so interesting
about that? Because I just foundthat incredible as a historian,
knowing the incredible amount ofwork that that would take for
them to do. Yeah, I'm just veryinterested in that aspect of
their indexing.
If you could tell us a bit moreabout that.

Rose Miron (22:26):
Yeah, absolutely. When I started finding those
materials in the archive, I wasreally blown away because that
is not really something that Ihad seen in other places,
especially for those of us whowork in native history in some
capacity, we are so used tohaving to like dig through the
collections of largely whitesettlers and looking for kind of

(22:46):
traces of native people andhaving to do like a lot of
reading against the grain. Andas you said, that's so much
work, you know, and you have tolike come up with these creative
search methods to try to kind ofunearth these people who are
there and who are, you know, inthese historical moments with
the people who are actuallydoing the writing. But it's it
takes a lot of work to kind ofparse through all of that. And

(23:09):
so yeah, I mean what we see inthe tribal archive is that
tribal members, mostly membersof the historical committee
would go to archives, especiallythose on the East Coast where a
lot of these materials existed.
And they would copy like a fullitem. Like I think one of the
examples that I use in the bookis the Journal of John Sargent
Jr, who's the son of the firstmissionary that the community

(23:31):
works with. And he later workswith the community in Upstate
New York. And so they'd copy hiswhole journal. But his whole
journal is not relevant toStockbridge Muncie folks.
Some of it is. But as somebodywho would be kind of wading
through that, it's easy to getfrustrated or discouraged as
you're trying to kind of findthe information that's relevant
to you. So in addition to thatjournal, when you open that in

(23:55):
the tribal archive, you're alsogoing to see an index where
historical committees had gonethrough page by page of that
journal and specifically markedwhich pages were relevant to the
community so that it was easierfor other tribal members to then
go in and be able to morequickly find things that would
be of interest to them. Andagain, this is just not
something that we typically seein larger archives at all

(24:17):
because, you know, I think likein part the role of the
archivist is often seen as likebeing neutral. Right?
And so like we're, archivistsare supposed to sort of like
present this knowledge andcertainly there are finding aids
that tell us what is in there,but not necessarily like
relevant to a certain group ofpeople, if that makes sense. And
so I think what makes the tribalarchive so unique is that it's

(24:39):
really meant for tribal members.These materials were brought
back so that they could beaccessible to tribal members.
And so these indexes werecreated to facilitate research
by Mohican people. And I alsoreally love, in addition to the
creation of these indexes, justkind of the pulling out of
certain materials andreorganizing them in
collections.

(24:59):
So this is something, forinstance, that we see with the
collection of Hendrik Oppenhott,who is kind of an early Mohican
orator and writer. And a lot ofhis writings are kind of stuck
within different collections,like at the Massachusetts
Historical Society. And again,like the kind of archival
principles tell us that weshould like keep those materials

(25:22):
together. But I really love thatthe community kind of pushed
back against that and like tookHendrik's writings out of those
other collections and placedthem in a new collection called
the Hendrik OppenhappenbachCollection in their own archive
so that people who wereinterested in researching him
could look at his writingstogether rather than have to
kind of parse through anotherset of papers.

Jennifer O'Neal (25:45):
Yeah, just the immense amount of work that they
did around this is justincredible and something you
don't always see. I've alsoheard you say just how, you
know, if there's any historianor anybody wanting to work or do
research on these communities,they of course have to go to
this collection. And they havedone such an incredible service

(26:06):
to those of us who do want toknow about this community, but
also have done it in such a waythat they've culled these
collections, they've, you know,have these bibliographies and
these indexing and annotationsof, yes, this is a good book or
don't look at this. The factthat they have done that work is
just incredible and somethingthat you don't always see.

(26:27):
Something that I look at in myown work and something I'm
currently working on and look atis, of course, during this time
period of when this committeereally is created in the late
60s, early 70s, of course, alsoin the height of the rise of the
Red Power movement, AmericanIndian Movement, where a lot of

(26:49):
that activism is veryperformative or takeovers of
buildings and very much more inthe public eye.
However, a lot of the work thatis being done by this community
is very much behind the scenes.And there are a lot of activists
also doing a lot of work behindthe scenes, whether it's in the
legal sphere, in policymaking.So very much interested in

(27:14):
what's happening behind thescenes that you don't always see
that is kind of a differentintervention in doing activist
work during the same timeperiod, but then going forward,
how do these activists maketheir work known? And then more
importantly, how do theycontinue to sustain it,
especially not only in their owncommunity, but also financially

(27:38):
and how do they make this worksustainable during a time period
where so much is happening, notonly by activists, also
politically, legally, whereyou're having the repealing of
termination coming and selfdetermination act and a lot is
happening, but it's stilldifficult to make a lot of these

(27:59):
initiatives continuing. So howdid they sustain this work?

Rose Miron (28:04):
Yeah, it's a great question. And I mean, every step
of the way through this project,have been like, I have asked
myself that question because I'mjust like, this is so much work
and it's amazing to just see howoften this committee met, you
know, how tuned in they were tothe kind of activism that was
happening on a national level.And certainly, like, I cannot

(28:25):
speak for them, but I will justsay, like, from reading the
minutes and from talking to thepeople who were, you know, in
the room when when these thingswere happening, it really seems
to me that they saw the workthat they were doing as part of
the historical committee asreally part of these larger
movements and as connected tothese larger movements. You
know, I think as the tribe isnot necessarily like directly

(28:49):
threatened with termination, buttheir neighbors, the Menominee
Nation is one of the nationsthat does get terminated. And so
like, you see that come up as atopic of discussion in the
meeting minutes.
Right? And I think you see that,like, there are some land
battles that happen, in the latetwentieth century where the
historical committee is involvedin, helping with identifying

(29:10):
research materials that can helpkind of make these cases in
court about different parts ofthe reservation that are in
question of, whether or not theyare part of the reservation or
not. And so I think, like,historical committee members
really saw their work as aninherent part of the tribe's

(29:30):
ability to exercise itssovereignty. I mean, and I think
that goes right back to theroots of how this archiving
process, was sort of started inthe twentieth century. You know,
like in the book, I talk abouthow the practice of, like,
recording and rememberingMohican history goes back to
time immemorial.
And I think that's absolutelyright. But the sort of moment
that the tribe is, like,actually starting to collect

(29:52):
physical documents and archivethem in a home in the way that
we think about an archive todayhappens in the 1930s when the
tribe is being asked by thefederal government to recognize
themselves in this way. And so Ithink the women who started the
historical committee and thenultimately with the historical
committee when it's founded,really sees themselves as an, a

(30:13):
key player in making sure thatthe tribe has the ability to
exercise its sovereignty ineverything from these land
battles to repatriationeventually, to more public
representations just in terms ofhow their history is being told.
So I think they see those thingsas connected. And then just in
terms of like the, you know,very logistical aspects of this,

(30:35):
I think like these women arejust incredibly savvy, you know,
the initial fundraising thatthey do and the way that they've
kind of financed these initialtrips is through collecting and
selling aluminum cans and savingup.
And to, you know, finance thesetrips across the country. And
then, you know, you can seethey're applying for just tons

(30:56):
of grants, across their, acrossthe 70s and 80s. Anybody who's
worked on grant work knows youapply for a lot and you get a
couple. And so they're kind ofpiecing together these small
different grants. And theneventually, as some of this work
is starting to growconversations about NAGPRA are

(31:17):
happening at a national level,the Tribal Historic Preservation
Office gets founded.
And so that kind of is able totake up some of the work that
these women have been doing. Andthen, kudos to the tribe who in
2018 actually started theDepartment of Cultural Affairs,
which sort of like really makesa department within the tribal

(31:38):
government that is addressingthese issues. So I think we
really see all of that kind ofgrow out of the historical
committee's work, but it'sreally just that these women
were incredibly committed towhat they were doing. And I
think they really saw what theywere doing as part of these
larger activist movements, evenif it wasn't being recognized as

(31:58):
such, because it was sort ofhappening behind the scenes. I
would be so curious to hear whatyou've seen in your work with
this too.
If you've seen similar things orhow, how you see people sustain
this work and make sure that itcontinues.

Jennifer O'Neal (32:15):
Well, know trying to sustain projects like
this or in tribal communities isjust one of the most challenging
initiatives that tribalarchivists, tribal historians,
or librarians, or museum folksoften face. That's why I was so
impressed by just what thiscommunity has done and how they

(32:35):
have sustained it for so long.We hear over and over again just
how challenging this is and ofcourse any tribal community that
is either trying to sustaintheir tribal archive library or
museum or who is trying to startor applying for grants or just
all the different areas thatthey have to manage is a huge

(32:56):
undertaking. And very similar tothe story here is you see in
many communities, of course,that it's often not somebody who
has gone out and I'm going to goto get a master's degree in
archives and museums orinformation studies. It's
somebody in front of thecommunity who cares deeply about

(33:18):
this.
Not that they're also not goingto school to do this, but they
care deeply about the communityand maybe they've been tasked
with doing this work. And I knowI've also heard you talk about
the work that Lisa Brooks hastalked about, about our
rememberers, those that are thekeepers of native history and

(33:39):
stories. And so many communitiescome at this from all different
ways. And the people who aretasked with doing it come at it
from different ways they've beenasked to do this. But the
sustaining of these programs andthe funding that it requires,
whether some are able to get thefunding from their own

(33:59):
communities, but then othershave to fight to get all of
these different grants, whetherit's with IMLS or with NEH or
other, private foundations thatare willing to provide funding
for this, like the MellonFoundation.
So it's really a hugeundertaking to continue to

(34:20):
sustain these projects. I guess,yeah, that's one of the main
reasons I wanted to ask thatquestion because I'm just so
incredibly impressed by the waysthat this historical committee
not only was able to be founded,but also to sustain over so many
years. Just the effort that ittakes from the community and the

(34:41):
funding that it requires is justincredible. You know, recently,
particularly over the past, Iwould say ten to twenty years,
we're thankfully seeing moresuccesses in tribal communities.
And I think that's due in partto the funding that they're able
to get in their from their owncommunities, funding from

(35:02):
outside funders, and also somepartnerships people have been
able to from outsideinstitutions that have also been
able to collaborate with tribalarchives, but it does continue
to be one of the biggestchallenges is just
sustainability education.
Luckily there's incredibleprograms now that are working to

(35:23):
provide that education as wellas to connect tribal communities
with funding that they need, butit continues to be the biggest
challenge. When you go toconferences like the incredible
Association for Tribal Archives,Libraries and Museums, a lot of
folks are talking about justsustainability and and how you

(35:44):
continue projects like this. Butluckily it's luckily it's
happening. I know another thingthat you know, especially most
recently in the past ten totwenty years that we're seeing a
lot more of is the return ofarchive collections, return of
collections. It's not alwayssignificant, but it is there.

(36:07):
And that's what I also foundinteresting about the story and
about what you looked at withthis community is they were also
at the forefront of doing a lotof that work, not just in what
we've already talked about withthe going to collections and
copying collections andreturning intellectually those
to their community, but theywere also at the forefront of

(36:29):
physically trying to getcollections back. And I know one
of the most significant onesthat you've talked about both in
the book and then in an articleis the Bible that they work to
have returned. You go into allof course, all the details of
that in both of these piecesthat you've written, but I was

(36:49):
wondering if you could talk justa little bit about the
significance of that because I'malways wanting to point out and
look toward kind of thesebeacons of hope for tribal
communities that are wanting tosee how can this be done, can
this be done, and what are theways and to not also not give up
because I know particularly thiscase it took them many years,

(37:11):
started in the 70s and it wentthrough different iterations,
but can you tell us thesignificance and how that
impacted the community?

Rose Miron (37:19):
Yeah, absolutely. Just to give a little bit of
context, this is a two volumeBible set that was gifted to the
tribe in 1745 by the chaplain tothe Prince of Wales. So this is
sort of when the tribe is inStockbridge and they've like
accepted this mission. This twovolume Bible set is given as a
gift of, you know, kind ofcelebrating Christianity

(37:40):
essentially. As tribal memberswere removed first from
Stockbridge and then, you know,as we talked about earlier, kind
of through the Southern GreatLakes and into what is now
Wisconsin, they carried thisBible set with them and, brought
it to Wisconsin with them.
And there was always a caretakerassigned to oversee and to

(38:01):
protect these very preciousobjects. And again, as you said,
I go into this story in a lot ofdetail in the book and the
article. So if you'reinterested, take a look there.
But in short, the items werestolen in 1930, and they were
sold to a white collector on theEast Coast who then put them
into a museum in Stockbridge,Massachusetts, which is where
they were gifted initially tothe tribe. And so as you

(38:25):
mentioned, Jennifer, the kind offight to try to have this two
volume bible set returned to thetribe began in about the '70s.
And they were repatriated in1991, kind of just before the
passage of NAGPRA. So, they wereit was not a NAGPRA
repatriation. It was somethingthat the historical committee
really committed themselves toand worked at for, you know,

(38:46):
twenty plus years, as they weretrying to to get these items
back. And I think that just inthinking about the significance
of both that repatriation, butalso the items, I think that,
you know, something that peopleoften ask me as I was working on
that aspect of the project werelike, you know, why Bibles? You
know, like what is thesignificance of these Bibles?

(39:07):
And I think that for so manytribal members, it's, I mean,
for some of them, I think theyare important as religious
objects. Know, a lot ofStockbridge Munsee people are
Christian and they, and they dothink of them as religious
objects. That said, a lot ofpeople also just see them as a
very important connection tothis place and to this moment in
their history. And I think thatthat became really important as

(39:30):
they were working to to getthese items back. And I think
this was one of the moments too,as I was working on that aspect
of the project that I realizedhow important the archive was in
connection to some of theserepatriation projects.
Because what we really see inthe way that they are able to be
successful is that they createthese two booklets of documents
that they circulate across thecountry. One is called A Brief

(39:53):
History of the StockbridgeBibles, and it includes, you
know, published works aboutMohican history and
correspondence between thecollector and the person who
stole the Bible. It includesletters from tribal members. And
then the second is thiscollection of documents called
the Stockbridge Bible, documentsrelating to its recovery. And

(40:13):
again, it's all it's basicallyjust a booklet of primary
sources where they're saying,you know, showing like these are
the firsthand accounts of howthe tribe has cared for the
Bible.
This is correspondence betweenthe tribe and the museum who's
holding these items. And theycirculate these materials to all
kinds of people from politiciansto friends of the tribe, to

(40:34):
different celebrities who thenwrite letters of support. And
they essentially just coordinatethis massive letter writing
campaign that eventually getsthe museum to fold and to agree
to return this two volume bibleset to the tribe. It's not
without a lot of challenges. Andagain, if you're interested in
that, the article especiallykind of gets into like the

(40:56):
behind the scene politics ofwhat was happening and the kind
of larger contexts of what washappening in conversations
leading up to the passage ofNAGPRA during this time.
But I think it just reallyattests to how the kind of
collection of these materials,these archival materials, really
allowed the historical committeeto put together a case for why
this two volume bible set shouldbe returned to the tribe and

(41:19):
really just speaks to how accessto archival materials can
facilitate, exercises ofsovereignty in this case,
directly related torepatriation. And I think it
also just really speaks to theimportance of how like new
narratives can be createdthrough these kinds of things.
When the Bible set was displayedon the East Coast in the Mission

(41:40):
House Museum, which is thismuseum that is still in
Stockbridge, you know, it wastold within a story about
missionization and colonizationand John Sargent and his family.
So the Mohicans were sort of apiece of this larger colonial
history of missionization. Nowin the tribal museum, it is a
very different story.

(42:00):
They are a piece within Mohicanhistory, and they're telling a
story about missionization isone piece within the larger
history of the Sacred Munseecommunity, not the other way
around. And so I think we cansee like how the return of these
objects just also really changesthe way that, these narratives
about Mohican history are told,where Mohican voices and stories

(42:21):
really get to be front andcenter as opposed to kind of a
piece of this larger narrativeabout colonization.

Jennifer O'Neal (42:28):
Yeah, and I'm glad you pointed that out
because I think that's what's sounique about this example is
just their tenacity for theirletter writing campaign, but not
only in that, but also in howonce being able to have the
materials returned back to them,how they use that to tell their

(42:48):
own story. That's really, ofcourse, I think a huge theme of
your book and your work. And Iknow I think I've heard you talk
about before when you think ofyour work, I think you think of
it, you know, these differentpillars that are that you see in
the book, like with access andof course sovereignty, but that
they're creating these newnarratives that of course that

(43:10):
have always existed in their owncommunity, but that maybe
haven't really risen up to otherhistorians or to how others have
viewed their community, which isreally so important. Of course,
a huge part of this book as wellas not only telling the story,
but really at in the conclusionof the book, really give a call

(43:33):
to action to outsideinstitutions, non native
institutions, and the importanceof working with communities like
this and to really center thework that tribal communities do.
So what advice or what kind ofcall to action do you give to
institutions that may want towork with these tribal

(43:54):
communities or what role do yousee that these types of
institutions should have? And Ithink that also then plays into
the conversation we wanted tohave around like the protocols
and other conversations, but Iwanted to hear what your call to
action would be forinstitutions.

Rose Miron (44:11):
Yeah, absolutely. That element of the book is
something that really developedas I was working for the
boarding school healingcoalition. And then as I was
working at the Newberry, becauseI realized that like the kind of
the three pillars that youmentioned, the like access
sovereignty and new narratives,like that kind of framework was
not part of my dissertation. Itwas something that kind of came,

(44:35):
that I came to by working inthese institutions because I
very quickly realized thatexplaining, I was trying to
explain to people the importanceof archival materials and how
archival materials sort of sitat like the nexus of all of this
kind of work that nativecommunities are doing to change
representations of theirhistory, I found myself kind of

(44:56):
describing access andsovereignty as like the levers
that folks can pull in order tocreate new narratives that are
more centered on native voicesand that are simply more
accurate. And so I ended upreally writing the conclusion in
particular, but also just otheraspects of the book and thinking
about those pillars as a sort ofcall to public history

(45:20):
practitioners for them to reallyunderstand that archival
materials are so important forthis work.
But if native people don't haveaccess to them and if they're
being interpreted withoutindigenous knowledge, they're
useless. They're not nearly,they're not going to create the
kind of new narratives that weshould be creating. And so I,

(45:40):
yeah, I think I really encouragepeople to think about both of
those things, just in terms oflike what they can do within
their institutions to improveaccess for native people, but
also really making sure thatnative communities have the
right to control how thosematerials are used and accessed.
I really took a lot of thataspect of the book was really, I

(46:02):
really learned from reading theprotocols for native American
archival materials And justlearning more about the kind of
larger movement of datasovereignty that has been
happening across the nation, youknow, and across the world
really in the last, you know,ten, fifteen years or so. And
so, yeah, I think that wasdefinitely a big part of how I

(46:25):
was thinking about publichistory practitioners.
And yeah, I mean, I would loveto hear what you think about
that as an author of thoseprotocols, As you were talking
earlier about some of thechanges that have happened in
the last ten to twelve yearswith tribes being able to get
more support for this kind ofwork, I think so much of that is
actually directly tied to theprotocols because they have been

(46:48):
able to really take those toinstitutions, libraries,
museums, and say like, these arethe best practices. And then
we're seeing more largerfoundations that are willing to
then fund that work, you know?And I think that that really
comes from setting a reallyclear set of, best practices
that people can follow. But Iknow that like the, the work of

(47:09):
writing the protocols andactually getting them to be
approved by, some of these majororganizations was really an
uphill battle. And so I wouldlove to hear a little bit more
about like how you experiencedthat and just what you've kind
of seen in the changes in thelast ten years or so, as the
protocols have become more citedand, and, and better shared with

(47:33):
different institutions andaccepted by various
institutions.
I guess also like what you see,what's next for that work.

Jennifer O'Neal (47:43):
Yeah, so the protocols were developed in
02/2006. So we're actuallycoming up on like twenty years.

Rose Miron (47:50):
Oh, twenty years, yeah.

Jennifer O'Neal (47:51):
Which is, wow, incredible to think about. But
yeah, was very lucky to be partof the group in 2006 that was
part of these incredibleconversations that where we
developed these guidelines andpolicy together, with a very
incredible group of, 19 otherarchivists, historians,

(48:13):
anthropologists, both native,non native coming together
because just to remind folks,you know, there's no national
policy on Native American tribalarchives prior to that, that
provided guidance for non nativerepositories on how to care for
our materials. And so that'sreally the void and the gap we

(48:37):
were seeking to fill. So many ofus were seeing in the field, in
these institutions that we wereworking in, communities, the
lack of native voices, and alsojust wanted to ensure the
correct care of culturallysensitive materials. In
particular, of course, NAGPRAhad been passed by that time and
was in effect, but there wasnothing that was helping to

(49:00):
protect archival materials.
You can, you know, think of thatof many of the different types
of materials you talk about inthe book, whether it's records
or, but it also includesphotographs, recordings, all the
things that are produced in ourcommunities that are not
protected under NAGPRA. Andsince that time, I think the
biggest thing to think about inthe context of this larger

(49:21):
movement of both the protectionof Native American archives, as
well as now indigenous datasovereignty is that I really see
and kind of what I've tried toreiterate to a lot of folks I
meet with about this topic isthat I really feel the work that
was begun with the protocols wasreally the start of indigenous

(49:44):
data sovereignty movement. Iknow a lot of folks talk about
it, with the start of thepassage of UNDRIP, the UN
Declaration of the Rights ofIndigenous Peoples. That of
course was a huge part of itbecause so much of that is
embedded in a lot of thearticles in UNDRIP. But there's
really a long legacy of thiswork happening and I even see it
with the Stockbridge MuncieMohican group, they're doing the

(50:06):
work.
So I'd really encourage peopleto think about it as not just a
movement, particularly theindigenous data sovereignty
movement and field, which hasreally grown over the past, I
would say fifteen years andlonger than that too, since the
Patches of UNDRIP, but that thiswork had been happening for
years before this. And it wouldnot exist without building upon

(50:30):
the incredible work of tribalcommunities, just like the ones
that is in your book, as well asthe ones that so many of us have
worked with. And so yes, when wedeveloped and then had and took
it out to so many differentorganizations and communities
for endorsement, as well as forimplementation into their

(50:52):
institutions, it was extremelychallenging because at that time
NAGPRA had been passed and thatwas already challenging. So to
fight for our archivalsovereignty in that context, it
took so many years. The firstphase was just educating people.
Why are Native American archivesdifferent? Because of
sovereignty. We are sovereignnations. And of course,

(51:14):
educating about the displacementof archives in so many of these
institutions. So, so much of ourtime was just spent educating
folks, particularly through theSociety of American Archivists,
as well as through otherorganizations.
And because it took so manyyears, it wasn't actually until
later in 2012 later when SAA andother organizations actually

(51:37):
endorsed it later in 2017 and2018. So it came quite late for
official endorsement for someorganizations, but that isn't
what was always important to us.I'm sure that's great if these
organizations finally endorseit, but we were not going to
wait to do the type of workwaiting on organizations that

(51:59):
were still doing their own work,doing their soul searching of we
already knew this. And so whatwas more important to us was to
see how institutions, howorganizations, how individual
researchers or archivists wereimplementing this work. So
that's what was important to usand that's where we saw the

(52:20):
incredible work happening, isthe people who were doing it and
that didn't need an endorsementto do it.
Because that is also where wecontinue to see and historically
have seen where this workhappens. Federal, state, even
local laws are not alwayssupportive and historically are
not supportive of tribalsovereignty. When we try to work

(52:41):
within those confines, it's notalways helpful or useful for us.
So that's why we have to createour own policies, our own
guidelines, and have those andhope that people follow them.
And of course, it is our hopethat this does become at some
point a national policy orinternational policy and of
course we have things likeUNDRIP and the care principles

(53:04):
that have emerged fromIndigenous data sovereignty,
which I feel are a lot of thesame values and statements and
guidelines that we also made in02/2006.
So I feel like it's an extensionof that work, and we are
embedded with and we are workingwith in that sector of
indigenous data sovereignty. Butreally, like I said, this work

(53:26):
has been happening for so manyyears and we just really look
forward to seeing hopefully how,what are these next steps going
to be in policymaking? Meaningreally one of my next big
projects I'm working on is,since we're coming up on twenty
years of the protocols, goingback and talking to a lot of the
folks who helped to draft theprotocols, were some of the

(53:49):
first people and organizationswho were adopters of doing this
work, having those difficultconversation, how things have
changed in our field, and maybeways they haven't changed. But I
think one of the biggest areasalso we're looking at is the
return of collections. Andthat's specifically why I asked
that question about the Bible,because how can we return even

(54:13):
more collections to communities?
And of course, there are thecollections where maybe that
isn't the best option or fit,but there are many collections
where they do need to be broughthome to these tribal communities
who have worked so hard todevelop these tribal archives,
these spaces where they do needto go back home. I was also

(54:35):
recently just part of a groupthat had a special issue within
the transactions volume of theAmerican Philosophical Society
where I talked about this issue.So if people want to know more
they can go and read thatspecial issue but it was
actually all about languagearchives and how the incredible
work happening around triballanguages and those collections.

(54:59):
Really my call to action in thatwas what are the ways in which
we can get more collections backinto tribal archives, in tribal
communities? Because yes,digital repatriation is one
avenue, but how can alsoinstitutions look at other
avenues that are going to alsoensure that collections can go

(55:19):
back to communities?
So that's a bit of kind of whereI'm hoping to see things go.

Rose Miron (55:24):
Yeah, that's great. And I think I end up having a
lot of conversations with otherinstitutions too about just like
what the kind of work that theycould be doing. And of course,
like the first thing I do isalways direct them to the
protocols. But I think what Ihave said, like, to many people
and and even within theinstitution that I work for now,
like, is, you know, let's notwait for a federal law to start

(55:44):
having these conversations aboutthe return of collection items.
Like, let's start having thoseconversations now.
You know? We should like, I Igenuinely hope that there's a
federal law at some point thatrequires that kind of return. In
the meantime, like we shouldjust be doing it because it's
the right thing to do. And weshould be opening these
conversations with communities.And so I think that, you know,

(56:05):
like you said, there aredefinitely institutions that are
starting to do that now or thepast five, ten years or so,
which I think is great to see.
I hope that that work willcontinue into the future.

Jennifer O'Neal (56:19):
Yeah. And what's incredible to see is
celebrating those moments ofinstitutions that are doing this
work and really who have led theway over the past twenty plus
years in doing this work. Andthat's why, again, I try to find
those pockets of hope for tribalcommunities so they can see
there are institutions that aredoing this work, they're doing

(56:41):
it in the right way. And thereare also institutions who are
wanting to listen and steppingback and saying, we know maybe
in the past we haven't done thiscorrectly, we're pausing, we're
learning, we're buildingpartnerships. And I think that
also applies to anybody who, andnot just archivists, but
historians and researchers whoare wanting to work with

(57:04):
communities to be able toapproach that in the same way
because I think there's a lot ofthe values and guidelines within
the protocols, as well as in theUN declaration of the rights of
indigenous peoples that appliesto doing research with
indigenous communities,following those, it's in the
same spirit and the spirit ofwanting to do the right thing.

(57:26):
Hopefully we are on a betterpath and that we have all of
these great years of learningfrom, the protocols, from the UN
declaration of rights ofindigenous peoples, also just
connections with otherindigenous folks across the
world that are helping us tocontinue to move forward and see
what will come next, is alsovery exciting. Just the last

(57:49):
question I might ask you,particularly if there might be
any graduate students orundergraduate students that
might be wanting to engage inwork like this, what's a piece
of advice that you would givethem? You could think back to
your undergrad or graduate self.What piece of advice would you
give to students who want to dothis work? Because I work with a
lot of undergrads and graduatestudents and I of course want to

(58:12):
encourage them to do this typeof work and I'm curious what you
would say.

Rose Miron (58:16):
Oh my gosh. I have so many things to think about.
I'll try to limit it. If I couldjust say maybe two things. The
first thing I would say is justthat I really strongly believe
that research that is aboutNative history should be led by
the priorities of tribalcommunities.
So I don't think that meansthat, like, you know, I am a non

(58:38):
Native scholar. I don't thinkthat that means that non Native
scholars or Native scholars whoare working with other
communities that are not theirown. I don't think that that
means that, like, we all can'tcome up with ideas that we're
interested in or, like, findthings in the archives that we
wanna write about. But I think,like, as soon as you are
thinking about going down thepath of working on a project,
like, some of the first thingsthat you should be doing is

(59:00):
talking to the communities whosehistory you're interested in
writing about, whether thathistory happened in the
twentieth century or theseventeenth century. Because I
think that there's an abundanceof, of research being done and
that's wonderful.
But I think, like, I reallywanna see a much bigger part of
research happening in NativeAmerican and indigenous studies.

(59:21):
And I think we're moving in thisdirection that is really, in
alignment with what tribes needand want and what they are
interested in. In this momentthat we are in where
consultation is becoming morecommon and encouraged, which I
think is great, it also meansthat tribes are getting, like,
inundated with requests forthings that may or may not
interest them. And so I think,like, instead of thinking about,

(59:44):
oh, I wanna make sure that,like, whatever community I'm
interested in writing about kindof signs off on this. Like, I
think researchers should behaving conversations with those
communities about theirinterests and really building
from there, if that makes sense,rather than, rather than kind of
centering one's own interests.
So I think that's just like thefirst thing that I would say is
that like any kind ofconsultation that is gonna

(01:00:07):
happen, like has to begin reallyearly. And as researchers, we
should think of ourselves lessas like people driving our work
and around our own interests andmore about like, how are we
being in service and how are webeing in reciprocal relation to
the communities that we'reworking with? So that's the one
thing, that's one thing I wouldsay. I think the other thing I
would want to say that issomething that I hear a lot from

(01:00:27):
graduate students and also Iguess is kind of sadly one of
the questions, one of the mostcommon questions that I've
received about this book is Iget a lot of questions about
like bias and whether or not thebook can really like be a
neutral telling of history,given how closely, like I worked
with the tribe. I get thismostly from like people who are
like in really traditionalhistory disciplines.
And so I guess I just want tosay to graduate students who

(01:00:49):
might be in that position, whomight be working in, like, very
traditional history departments,and historians who are, you
know, coming from this world inwhich we are told that we have
to be kind of, like, neutral. Iguess I would just say that mine
sort of like hill to die on, ifyou will, is that like, there's
no such thing as neutral historyand that we all are bringing our
own biases into the work that wedo. And ultimately, like, you

(01:01:12):
know, if I had written this bookwithout consulting the community
and asking them for feedback ondrafts, like it would have been
a worse book because I wouldhave just gotten things wrong.
You know, I think fundamentallyas a non native historian, there
are just things that I'm nevergoing to inherently understand
and never going to be able tointerpret without guidance. So I
think there are still a lot ofpeople out there who are writing
books about native historywithout talking to any

(01:01:32):
contemporary communities.
And kind of, and they say like,well, are these like unbiased
texts because they're relying onarchival materials alone. But I
think we have to recognize thatlike there's bias in archival
materials. There's bias inwhoever is writing these new
historical narratives. Ashistorians, like we have to just
acknowledge that like no work isneutral and in order to simply

(01:01:52):
create better scholarship andmore responsible scholarship, we
can and should be workingdirectly with the communities
whose research we are writing.And I think that applies to
both, you know, Native and nonNative historians alike.
Yeah, I'm curious about youranswer to this question, though.
What advice would you give?

Jennifer O'Neal (01:02:09):
Yeah, and thank you for yours. I think those are
all so important to remember. Ithink in the very similar
questions that I get, one of thebiggest pieces of advice I
usually, of course, in additionto everything that you said, of
course, working with communityhearing and listening to what

(01:02:29):
are their priorities is also theslowing down of the process. And
I know that can be verydifficult, particularly in the
academic setting and schedulesand calendars that many
undergrads as well as graduatestudents are placed within,
particularly if they'refinishing a thesis or a

(01:02:50):
dissertation, which we all knowthere's certain kind of
benchmarks and deadlines thatyou work up against. So
something I always encouragestudents on is I know you have
certain deadlines and calendarsto meet, but as much as possible
slowing down the process so thatyou're, and knowing it's going
to take much longer than youthink it is because building

(01:03:13):
those partnerships andrelationships takes time and
you're working on their time,they're not working on your time
as much as you would like themto.
And so knowing that thedissertation or the thesis that
you might work on is just thatmoment in time and what you can
work on to that point. However,it's important to remember that

(01:03:34):
the partnerships that you'rebuilding with these communities,
those you should not see is justa one time thing. You need to
continue those for the long termfor what might come after just
how you've done. You wrote yourdissertation and then now you've
wrote the book and I know you'vecontinuing to work with the
community. So to look at thesepartnerships as long term

(01:03:55):
commitments and to really beembedded in that, and that's
what I've seen as mostsuccessful.
And of course, all sorts ofother advice I can give as well,
but I think that's one of thebiggest, just to slow me down
the process and building thesereally long term partnerships.
But, I just really applaud youfor the incredible work that
you've done with the community,and how also I know I've heard

(01:04:19):
you say how the proceeds fromthe book go to the community and
to continuing these projects, aswell as with the oral history,
that you did with them, that thecopyright lies with them. That's
embedding, the protocols anddata sovereignty into this work.
It's just incredible to seebecause that's really also what
we want to see. We want to seeall of that going back to the

(01:04:40):
community.
And so it's just amazing to seethe work that you've done. So
thank you so much for sharingyour story with us today, as
well as just being inconversation. It's incredible to
see the work that you've done.And I encourage everyone to go
out and buy her book, IndigenousInterventions in Public History

(01:05:00):
and Memory, and to continue tosee the incredible work that
Rose is doing with thiscommunity as well as many other
projects. Just thank you so muchfor being with us today.

Rose Miron (01:05:13):
Well, you. Absolutely. And thank you,
Jennifer. I just want to echoback that, you know, your work
was so important to me inwriting this book. I learned so
much from reading the publishedarticles that you have about
archival activism and from theprotocols, which of course you
helped author.
And so thank you for doing allof that work that has helped so
many of us in the field learnabout these things. And I know

(01:05:36):
that you're kind of working on abook project right now that I
can't wait to read when it comesout.

Jennifer O'Neal (01:05:40):
Yeah. Yeah, it'll be great to see all the
wonderful things that come outof this field and this work that
so many people are doing. I amjust elated that finally so much
is being done in this field. Sojust, it's been really great to
be in conversation. So thank youso much.

Rose Miron (01:05:56):
Absolutely. Thank you.

Narrator (01:05:58):
This has been a University of Minnesota Press
production. The book, IndigenousMohican Interventions in Public
History and Memory by RoseMyron, is available from
University of Minnesota Press.Thank you for listening.