July 12, 2022 • 31 mins
Brazilian-born Andre (Dede) Laurentino is Chief Creative Officer for Ogilvy UK. Both an Art Director and copywriter by trade, Dede has done award-winning work for global brands such as Adidas, Nissan, Dove, Hellmann's, and many more. Alongside his career in advertising, Dede is a published author and a cartoonist.
Creativity Without Frontiers available at all relevant book retailers
Stay in touch with Unknown Origins
Music by Iain Mutch
Attitude. Imagination. Execution.
Create Without Frontiers.
🌐 www.unknownorigins.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Andre (Dede) Laurentino (00:06):
Hello, I'm Roy Sharples, welcome to the
unknown origins podcast. Why areyou listening to this podcast?
Are you seeking inspiration? anindustry expert looking for
insights or growing your career?
I created the unknown originspodcast to provide access to
insights and content fromcreators worldwide with
(00:26):
inspirational conversations andstorytelling, about art,
architecture, design,entrepreneurship, fashion, film,
music and pop culture. Brazilianborn Andre De Florentino is
Chief Creative Officer forOgilvy UK, with an art director
and copywriter by trade. Didihas done award winning work for
(00:51):
global brands such as Adidas,Nissen, Dov, Hellman's, and many
more. Alongside his career inadvertising, DD is a published
author, and a cartoonist. Hello,and welcome, didi. So what
attracted you to the creativeindustry in the first place, and
then eventually, into creativeleadership?
(01:14):
When I started in the creativeindustry, actually, it was in
Scotland in Edinburgh, I alwaysthought I'd be an architect
because I liked drawing. Socreative was always something I
knew I would be I liked, youknow, if you if you're a
creative person, you write musicor you dance or you draw, you
write whatever is it that youdo, you know it from a very
(01:37):
early on, very early on in yourlife, that that's what makes you
tick. And I thought I'd be anarchitect, for lack of a better
idea. Then I came to Edinburghto study English when I was 17.
And that was my first contactwith with British advertising
and language, in that sense, andI fell in love with it. So this
(01:58):
is really, really cool. So Icame back and said, I want to do
advertising. So that's whatdrove me to the industry was
this experience of ads here. Andthen, as your career progresses,
I don't think I've never saidoh, I'd like to be a leader. I'd
(02:19):
like to run things that wasnever a carrot I had, it was
just making things and beingable to express and think and
move people and connect withpeople. That's what I wanted to
do. Then as I started, beingpromoted to creative director,
(02:41):
and then Executive CreativeDirector, which are two
different things. That's what Ihad to learn how to be a leader
in at first, some of the thingsfelt annoying, because that's
not what I liked doing, youknow, especially the management
side of things, the admin sideof things, but that is a very
big, important parts of it. Andyou need to understand what that
(03:04):
unlocks, and what the job is. Ifind that in our industry,
creative industry, or morespecifically, in advertising, I
think it's getting better now.
But in my days, there will therewouldn't be training for you to
be a leader, it was more likejump in the deep end of the pool
and learn how to swim. And don'tmake mistakes. By the way, don't
(03:28):
don't swallow too much water. Sothat's how you learn. And one of
one of the big moments for mewas coming to the UK much later,
many years later, after myEdinburgh stint when I came to
London to TBWA London. Andthat's when I think because I
(03:52):
was out of my element physicallyout of my element in a foreign
country that I respected andwith people I admired, working
at an agency whose legacy Iadmired. I needed to read the
instructions manual, how do I dothis? So that's when I started
looking for books aboutleadership and creativity and
(04:15):
creative leadership and all therest of it.
What is your creative process interms of how do you make the
(05:49):
invisible visible by dreaming upideas, developing them into
concepts, and then bringing themto actualization?
I think, well, a creativeprocess is so unique to each
individual. There are people wholove working to music, for
(06:11):
example. And if you go tointegrators apartment, you'll
see some creators withheadphones, listening to music,
music completely destroys myconcentration and my focus,
because I try to pay attentionto the music, and I forget what
I was trying to do in the firstplace. So to me, silence is a
thing. But this is very, verypersonal things. But I think on
(06:34):
a more general kind of comment.
Everyone's first ideas will bebad. It's very unusual. That one
presented a problem, your veryfirst gut reaction to it will be
original, incredible, oblique,thoughtful, unexpected, because
(06:58):
I think it's like you'redigging, looking for gold. And
if you're many people have donethem before. So the first thing
is that you find it's whateverybody else found. And you
need to I had a friend who saidthe best ideas turn up at page
45 on a Word document. Becauseall of that before it's just
(07:22):
digging through thecommonalities the platitudes,
the first thoughts everyone elsehas had before you. And then
when you start digging deeperand deeper and deeper, you find
the more oblique connections tothat problem. When you're tired,
when you think you've coveredevery angle, there is no
possible way in anymore. I'vetried everything. That's when
(07:45):
you get to the interestingterritory. That's when it gets
to the Virgin Beach, that no onehas set foot before you. So that
I think is my process is boring,because those, those first
ideas, they take time they takeeffort. And it's you need to go
through it and do to do theother thing I read, which I
(08:09):
thought was a very goodobservation is, you know, a
writer by looking into his orher dustbin, because what that
writer decides to throw awayshows his or her criteria.
That's not good enough for me,I'll go find something else. And
they don't Wow, that's quite agood line or a good creative
(08:31):
find. Not for me, I'll keep ondigging. And that that measure
is up to everyone. That's you,you decide when you've found
real gold and the obsessivetypes will never tire. In our
field. It's commercial. So youdo have a deadline. You do need
(08:55):
to meet somebody else'sexpectations, not just your own.
And therein lies many cons andpros at the same time because
when you think you've found it,someone else says; "not sure!".
And that's frustrating at first.
(09:16):
But then if you take the rightside of rejection, it'll get you
to a better place to notsuccumb. Do not die when your
heart says I'm dead. Find someinspiration, find some Mojo,
find some resilience somewhereelse, even in anger. Prove that
person wrong. prove your worthgo at it again, and come out
(09:41):
even better. There's a greatdocumentary about genius
creative process, which is EdSheeran. Ed Sheeran is this
British musician. Maybe I'mexplaining the obvious here a
bit of mansplaining but he'swonderful. He's a perfect
hitmaker. And there's adocumentary you can all watch on
(10:03):
streaming platforms, where hedoes something he had never
tried before he goes to a farm,to write a record with all his
best creative partners at thesame time. So in each room,
there is a set of his creativepartners who may not know each
other. They're from differentareas of his life, but they're
all partners he has. So in thekitchen in the living room in
(10:28):
the shed, there'll be the spa ineach of these rooms. They're
writing a different track tothat same album. The common
element is Ed Sheeran, he goesfrom room to room, seeing where
the creative development of eachsong is at lyrics, music,
melody, harmony, arrangement,production, all of that at the
same time. And he is veryafraid, because he doesn't know
(10:51):
if you'll succeed. I won't spoilthe documentary, but you need to
watch it because it's live. Youcan see music being made while
it's being made. But what theinteresting thing for this
moment is he gets to the to thefinal product, and it's very
proud to present that to hisrecord company, as then in our
(11:14):
world in advertising the client.
(11:47):
But he presents the princeAikens to present his final
product to the record company,on the Southbank. It's where I
work, funnily enough, and, andthe camera doesn't go into that
meeting, he presents it. Andthen he comes back to the car,
and is deeply frustrated.
Because the people at the recordcompany say, it's great, but
(12:08):
we're missing something. And sowhat are we missing? We're
missing a hit, we're missing theelement in your record, that's
not there yet. But this guy, EdSheeran is someone who has given
his everything is empty, it'scompletely empty. And he was
very proud of what he'dachieved. And he was waiting for
(12:29):
this standing ovation of howwonderful it was what it all
was, and he gets, yes, but andthen in his frustration in the
car, this moment is captured oncamera says that I know what
they want. I know exactly whatthey want, and I can deliver it,
you can see his anger. And thathit is I mean, I'm in love with
(12:53):
the shape of you. I'm in lovewith your body, I'm in love with
the shape of you. And then yougo, Oh my God, that album would
have existed without that track.
So you see what a little bit ofpush can drive creativity. So
it's it's wonderful to see andthen you learn from from these
(13:15):
things.
What are the key skills neededto survive and thrive as a
creative leader?
Well, that's a great question.
It's a great question. The firstone, I think would be
(13:37):
resilience. If the leader isdown and defeated, everybody
will notice. And they will say,because they're looking up to
the leader, the leader has toalways have a brave face or not
that you wouldn't be able toshow frustration. You're sad at
(13:57):
times, yes. But always, alwaysup for it. And that's a big
element. The other one is toconvince people from within.
People can detect glib talk fromfive miles away. You can you can
(14:17):
detect, if I'm really sayingwhat I mean. Or if I'm
memorizing a text that somebodyelse wrote so that I can I can
read and talk to you. And nowyou can detect that. You've
never met me before. You don'tknow me. But what I am seeing
and believing me, what I'mseeing is what I really feel.
(14:38):
And perhaps you will haveidentified that even before I
said it, and that element mustbe there. If you're leading
people who don't believe in thatmission yourself, people will
tell from a mile away and thatis something we need to find
that belief. So that's a greatsign. Superman quote when, in
(14:59):
those original movies in the70s, Superman is flying holding
Lois Lane's hand. And Lois Laneis very worried because she's
flying, this man is holding myhand. And she's very nervous.
And he says, Don't worry, I'mholding you. And she says yes,
but who's holding you.
(15:23):
So the leader has defined what'sholding me. And that can come
from books that can come fromstories that can come from life
that can come from your family,from anywhere, as long as you
find that thing that keeps yougoing from within Honest,
(15:45):
honest, honest. And it'sincredible. I've read, I've
tried to find these things inmoments of disbelief or despair
of self doubt. Impostersyndrome, all of that exists.
And it's all equally painful anddamaging and sapping. Good.
(16:07):
LinkedIn needs to know how to beahead and above these things,
somehow.
There was this moment when I hadjoined a company here in the UK.
(16:57):
And it was my first experiencehere in this country. And three
months in, we lost a big pieceof business and internal
movement of accounts. So it'snot that we weren't doing a good
job, it was an internal globalmove accounts. But that meant
that the specific office I wasworking at lost a third of its
(17:21):
revenue. And we had to come backfrom behind and with a brave
face on and find new businessand find the joy that creativity
needs to operate. And I went,where do I find that I am new to
this place, new to the company,new to the people I'm working
(17:43):
with. And we've just had thisbig hit, how can we fight back?
And my, my intuition was what isa local hero, I'll learn from
the local heroes that I won't beembarrassed to go as high as I
can. And my local hero is acontroversial name. But at that
(18:08):
point in time, I want to know, Iwanted to know why he was a hero
at that point. And that wasWinston Churchill. But I didn't
have time to read a very thickbiography because I needed to
act very quickly. So I lookedfor the thinnest biography of
Churchill I could find at Foylesthe bookstore, and I bought it
(18:30):
Churchill, his finest hour, isthe one I bought, and I
understood his mistakes. Iunderstood his flaws. I
understood why he connected whathis big points were, where he
got things, right, because hegot many things wrong, as we
know, too. And that fact thatthis the most admired British
(18:53):
person in history, according toa Paul had defects, Harry had
very visible defects had amediocre career, up until that
point. And even after he helpedmany countries, when the Second
World War and ran for PrimeMinister lost the election, and
(19:18):
he was devastated that he lostthe election. So all of that
felt very human without thatsugar coated story of everything
he said and did was rightbecause he was a genius. That
doesn't help. So that's where Iwent to find inspiration.
Roy Sharples (19:36):
I know that bookshop well; Foyes in
Piccadilly. Winston Churchillinspired people had a unique
strategic insight and refuse togive in to evil during extreme
adversity. And he led the way toprotect Great Britain and the
Commonwealth freedom by rallyinga nation and forming strategic
alliances with America and theSoviet Union in defiance. of
(20:00):
Hitler, and the Nazi regimedifferent, but similar creative
leaders, Mahatma Gandhi andMartin Luther King Jr. LED with
a nonviolent approach ininfluencing later resistance by
global movements like similarlywith Nelson Mandela, who
rebelled against the apartheidregime and aiming to remove
(20:22):
racism and eradicate poverty andinequality. And South Africa.
And also another PresidentAbraham Lincoln, who defied all
odds to become president byenacting measures to oppose and
abolish slavery in America. Butthe point being is, these
leaders stood for purpose,reason and conviction, by seeing
(20:45):
their policies through to thebitter end with resilience,
grit, and the solidarity, thesolitary intent of making
humanity better, they did thingsthat had never been done before.
And they rejected failure andswim against the tide, to
provide novel solutions tocomplex problems that we didn't
know could exist. And as aresult, they formed a new
(21:09):
movement, culture, norms, and away of life. But the common
thread that goes through thesecreative leaders is that they
were flawed. And they did makemistakes, that once they
matured, land and reflected,they were all ultimately driven
by one common characteristic.
They wanted a better world and abetter outcome for humanity.
Andre (Dede) Laurentino (21:35):
And I must say, just for the sake of
sanity, not for one moment did Ithink that what I had to do was
even remotely comparable to whatto do. It's just that I felt Oh,
my job is actually easy. He hadthis very difficult task, lives
were at stake. And this is howhe did I just went to see what
(21:57):
were the elements that madeChurchill, a British hero that
resonates in the culture inwhich I was also leaving,
although everything else isabsolutely different to to watch
her tools facing, of course, I'mnot saying that for one second.
(22:18):
It's what I wait forinspiration, not tips.
So as you reflect upon your lifeand career to date, what are
your lessons learned in terms ofthe pitfalls to avoid? And the
keys to success that you canshare with existing, but also
aspiring creative leaders?
(22:39):
That's that's also a greatquestion. Well, learning what
pitfalls to avoid is a memorydraining lesson because I keep
falling onto them and learningnew ones. So that's always
learned. I think I've been veryfortunate to have worked with
wonderful people, and couldobserve and memorize sometimes
(23:04):
even consciously, what is itthat I loved about them? What is
it that made me admire want tobe like them. And it's essential
that we have these people in ourlives. And they will not just in
advertise, they will not just mybosses, they were friends. They
were people. I had my firstcreative director back in his
(23:28):
city, where I come from, it's acity in the Northeast of Brazil.
And it was a tiny agency in atiny city. And this was a
creative director, I was 17Sorry, 1819 At that point, and
that man was teaching me a lotabout life. He was a creative
(23:49):
director, but he was a verygenerous person. And he noticed
that I was a trainee there. Andhe noticed my curiosity, and he
noticed my keen intent inlearning about this profession.
And it said, Oh, he started toinvite me to his meetings that
(24:11):
he had in his house everyThursday evening with the owner
of the agency to talk aboutopera and literature. And then
he would have dinner with hiswife and they order and meet the
stray knee. And those Thursdayevenings taught me so much. I
may have not understood maybe Idid, not even half of what they
(24:35):
were saying. It was really abovemy head, but I could see the
passion. I could see how theytalked about that and how they
came alive. And I went all theresult. They're seeing a
difference because he wouldwatch the opera together. And I
noticed afterwards, they watcheda different thing. Yeah, I
didn't see half of what theysaw. I want to see that it's as
(24:58):
if they're A perception of lifeenable them to, to withdraw from
life, every single second of it.
And I was missing chunks by thehour, in my obtuse, small
minded, closed doors toperception. And that was
(25:19):
something I learned from him tospot in whoever it is the will.
And and the spirit that meritsyou saying, let me share this
with you, let me take you onthis journey. And he did that to
this trainee who was me. And I'mvery grateful to that person
(25:42):
gyro, his name is unfortunatelypassed away, but he became a
friend for life. Because Ilearned so much from him. And
the owner, it'll be onkey, anItalian man, proper renaissance
man who fled the war, to live inBrazil. And he was he was
obsessive about learning andknowing being the best at what
(26:07):
he does and having the highestof standards in this tiny agency
in his sci fi. So it showed alsoto me that it doesn't depend on
the budgets or the kind ofclients you have. We were doing
retail ads weekly, but what theywanted from those retail ads and
how the type needed to be in thecurling and what typography did
(26:30):
you choose and why taught me somuch.
That's an admirable and greatthing to do by the creative
director that you named checked.
He obviously saw somethingcompelling in you where he felt
compelled to let you enter hisworld, and a mentorship,
apprenticeship capacity thathelped expose you very early on
in your career, in a way to beable to stand on the shoulders
(26:54):
of giants by seeking consultantfrom non consulting seeking
counsel, on my by seeking, letme rewind back and say that
again. He obviously sawsomething compelling in you
where he felt compelled to letyou into his world, and the
mentorship, apprenticeshipcapacity that really exposed you
(27:16):
very early on in your career tohelp you stand on the shoulders
of giants by seeking counsel.
And it really helps us well,obviously, if it's people you
trust, respect and, and admire.
But I think that's a keymessage. And a key trait that
comes across many creativepeople's upbringing and
(27:38):
education is the ability to seekand find positive role models
really early on, and yourdevelopment who can share their
skills, insights and expertisethat help nurture your ideas.
What's your vision for thefuture of creative agencies, and
the role of creativity.
(27:59):
Of course, we're at this biglong inflection point where we
were coming from extremespecialism because we were
specialists in precisely fourmedia's right. And we do
everything about those radio outof home print and TV. And we had
decades to study the samelength, there was very little
(28:23):
change for decades, so we couldreally understand. And then all
of a sudden, it's free. Now allof those swimming lanes were
removed. And the industry is isof course, much better than what
it was 10 years ago, five yearsago, in that sense. The other
(28:45):
big transformation, which isfinally here, still
transformation. But finally hereis diversity of creative people
in creative thinking and lifeexperiences, be it in gender
balance, be it in socialdiversity, racial diversity,
(29:05):
ethnic everything, it's finallycoming and not because it's a
nice PR story in a nice photo.
But because it brings differentthinking, genuine difference in
the thinking. And that's theroot of creativity is mixing
things that weren't togetherbefore to create a third that is
(29:27):
now real. And this is happeningon all kinds of level from the
diversity of disciplines aswell. And you have a data driven
creative, working with adesigner or a social media
specialist creative working witha typical brand conceptual
(29:48):
thinker. These things producenew stuff. And technology is
allowing us to do more and moreand I I think we just need to
have that same spirit that wehad when we were beginning to
just take it all in and see whatwe can do. And now the big
teacher of that is PabloPicasso. He said all wood,
(30:11):
that's interesting. What can Ido with wood pine? He would do
wood, carvings and paper. Can Iplay with paper and makes paper
sculptures? wires? Can I bendthese wires with this guitar and
make a sculpture? Oh, can I makea vase? Can I make sculptures?
Can I pink, and then whenphotography was invented, he
(30:34):
said, Can I paint with light.
And then there was the famousseries of the long exposure and
Picasso's painting drawing withlight, something he would only
see at that point, we dayslater, when, when the
photography was photographs aredeveloped, that is a proper
creative spirit, that thatdoesn't say, Oh, that's not how
(30:57):
I paint, I need to see what ishappening on the screen, not
with light in a camera. So thatapproach that because of WESC
thirst and appetite and sheerjoy of trying things, is what
the industry is experimentingright now. And it's just
(31:18):
amazing. What's not here yet andmakes it a little bit
uncomfortable is we haven't hadthe results yet. We haven't seen
the developed photo photographyet. But we're just making it
and we will see it in 10 yearstime and 15 is fine. But best
thing is it's always been likethis impressionism was being
(31:40):
invented. Nobody knew if it wasgood or bad. They were just
painting. And now everyonereveals it. But at that point,
it was shocking. So all thesenew kinds of music that's coming
up, and, and my kids areteaching me stuff. And
everything that I listened to isold, and it's amazing. It's
phenomenally energizing. So thefuture is, we're making it right
(32:05):
now. We're making the future nowand it is what we make of it. So
it's very interesting.
Yes, the future belongs to thosewho can see it coming. Your
point about Pablo Picasso waspoignant. He believed all
children are artists. But losercreativity growing up, so grew
into not out of creativity. Anddon't give up on your childhood
(32:28):
dreams, and your approach to theworld through a child's eyes.
Learn, innovate, and never wastea second on anything that seems
to restrict you. So keep true tothe dreams of your youth and
create outside the boundaries.
Creativity is ordinary peopledoing extraordinary things.
Creativity can be applied toevery profession and domain
(32:49):
because it is found in allaspects of life. It isn't
something lost with age, but askill we too often neglect to
practice. The challenge is notlearning new things, as this
will inevitably happen as weexplore, travel, learn and grow.
Instead, the challenge iskeeping our childlike wonder and
imagination alive and having thecourage to combine those things
(33:13):
with our new experiences andinsight.
Roy Sharples (33:25):
Do you want to learn more about how to create
Without Frontiers then considergetting CREATIVITY WITHOUT
frontiers. How to make theinvisible visible by lighting
the way into the future. It'savailable in print, digital and
audio on all relevant bookplatforms. You have been
(33:45):
listening to the unknown originspodcast please follow subscribe
rate and review us for moreinformation go to unknown
origins.com Thank you forlistening
Hello, I'm Roy Sharples, welcome to the
unknown origins podcast. Why areyou listening to this podcast?
Are you seeking inspiration? anindustry expert looking for
insights or growing your career?
I created the unknown originspodcast to provide access to
insights and content fromcreators worldwide with
(00:26):
inspirational conversations andstorytelling, about art,
architecture, design,entrepreneurship, fashion, film,
music and pop culture. Brazilianborn Andre De Florentino is
Chief Creative Officer forOgilvy UK, with an art director
and copywriter by trade. Didihas done award winning work for
(00:51):
global brands such as Adidas,Nissen, Dov, Hellman's, and many
more. Alongside his career inadvertising, DD is a published
author, and a cartoonist. Hello,and welcome, didi. So what
attracted you to the creativeindustry in the first place, and
then eventually, into creativeleadership?
(01:14):
When I started in the creativeindustry, actually, it was in
Scotland in Edinburgh, I alwaysthought I'd be an architect
because I liked drawing. Socreative was always something I
knew I would be I liked, youknow, if you if you're a
creative person, you write musicor you dance or you draw, you
write whatever is it that youdo, you know it from a very
(01:37):
early on, very early on in yourlife, that that's what makes you
tick. And I thought I'd be anarchitect, for lack of a better
idea. Then I came to Edinburghto study English when I was 17.
And that was my first contactwith with British advertising
and language, in that sense, andI fell in love with it. So this
(01:58):
is really, really cool. So Icame back and said, I want to do
advertising. So that's whatdrove me to the industry was
this experience of ads here. Andthen, as your career progresses,
I don't think I've never saidoh, I'd like to be a leader. I'd
(02:19):
like to run things that wasnever a carrot I had, it was
just making things and beingable to express and think and
move people and connect withpeople. That's what I wanted to
do. Then as I started, beingpromoted to creative director,
(02:41):
and then Executive CreativeDirector, which are two
different things. That's what Ihad to learn how to be a leader
in at first, some of the thingsfelt annoying, because that's
not what I liked doing, youknow, especially the management
side of things, the admin sideof things, but that is a very
big, important parts of it. Andyou need to understand what that
(03:04):
unlocks, and what the job is. Ifind that in our industry,
creative industry, or morespecifically, in advertising, I
think it's getting better now.
But in my days, there will therewouldn't be training for you to
be a leader, it was more likejump in the deep end of the pool
and learn how to swim. And don'tmake mistakes. By the way, don't
(03:28):
don't swallow too much water. Sothat's how you learn. And one of
one of the big moments for mewas coming to the UK much later,
many years later, after myEdinburgh stint when I came to
London to TBWA London. Andthat's when I think because I
(03:52):
was out of my element physicallyout of my element in a foreign
country that I respected andwith people I admired, working
at an agency whose legacy Iadmired. I needed to read the
instructions manual, how do I dothis? So that's when I started
looking for books aboutleadership and creativity and
(04:15):
creative leadership and all therest of it.
What is your creative process interms of how do you make the
(05:49):
invisible visible by dreaming upideas, developing them into
concepts, and then bringing themto actualization?
I think, well, a creativeprocess is so unique to each
individual. There are people wholove working to music, for
(06:11):
example. And if you go tointegrators apartment, you'll
see some creators withheadphones, listening to music,
music completely destroys myconcentration and my focus,
because I try to pay attentionto the music, and I forget what
I was trying to do in the firstplace. So to me, silence is a
thing. But this is very, verypersonal things. But I think on
(06:34):
a more general kind of comment.
Everyone's first ideas will bebad. It's very unusual. That one
presented a problem, your veryfirst gut reaction to it will be
original, incredible, oblique,thoughtful, unexpected, because
(06:58):
I think it's like you'redigging, looking for gold. And
if you're many people have donethem before. So the first thing
is that you find it's whateverybody else found. And you
need to I had a friend who saidthe best ideas turn up at page
45 on a Word document. Becauseall of that before it's just
(07:22):
digging through thecommonalities the platitudes,
the first thoughts everyone elsehas had before you. And then
when you start digging deeperand deeper and deeper, you find
the more oblique connections tothat problem. When you're tired,
when you think you've coveredevery angle, there is no
possible way in anymore. I'vetried everything. That's when
(07:45):
you get to the interestingterritory. That's when it gets
to the Virgin Beach, that no onehas set foot before you. So that
I think is my process is boring,because those, those first
ideas, they take time they takeeffort. And it's you need to go
through it and do to do theother thing I read, which I
(08:09):
thought was a very goodobservation is, you know, a
writer by looking into his orher dustbin, because what that
writer decides to throw awayshows his or her criteria.
That's not good enough for me,I'll go find something else. And
they don't Wow, that's quite agood line or a good creative
(08:31):
find. Not for me, I'll keep ondigging. And that that measure
is up to everyone. That's you,you decide when you've found
real gold and the obsessivetypes will never tire. In our
field. It's commercial. So youdo have a deadline. You do need
(08:55):
to meet somebody else'sexpectations, not just your own.
And therein lies many cons andpros at the same time because
when you think you've found it,someone else says; "not sure!".
And that's frustrating at first.
(09:16):
But then if you take the rightside of rejection, it'll get you
to a better place to notsuccumb. Do not die when your
heart says I'm dead. Find someinspiration, find some Mojo,
find some resilience somewhereelse, even in anger. Prove that
person wrong. prove your worthgo at it again, and come out
(09:41):
even better. There's a greatdocumentary about genius
creative process, which is EdSheeran. Ed Sheeran is this
British musician. Maybe I'mexplaining the obvious here a
bit of mansplaining but he'swonderful. He's a perfect
hitmaker. And there's adocumentary you can all watch on
(10:03):
streaming platforms, where hedoes something he had never
tried before he goes to a farm,to write a record with all his
best creative partners at thesame time. So in each room,
there is a set of his creativepartners who may not know each
other. They're from differentareas of his life, but they're
all partners he has. So in thekitchen in the living room in
(10:28):
the shed, there'll be the spa ineach of these rooms. They're
writing a different track tothat same album. The common
element is Ed Sheeran, he goesfrom room to room, seeing where
the creative development of eachsong is at lyrics, music,
melody, harmony, arrangement,production, all of that at the
same time. And he is veryafraid, because he doesn't know
(10:51):
if you'll succeed. I won't spoilthe documentary, but you need to
watch it because it's live. Youcan see music being made while
it's being made. But what theinteresting thing for this
moment is he gets to the to thefinal product, and it's very
proud to present that to hisrecord company, as then in our
(11:14):
world in advertising the client.
(11:47):
But he presents the princeAikens to present his final
product to the record company,on the Southbank. It's where I
work, funnily enough, and, andthe camera doesn't go into that
meeting, he presents it. Andthen he comes back to the car,
and is deeply frustrated.
Because the people at the recordcompany say, it's great, but
(12:08):
we're missing something. And sowhat are we missing? We're
missing a hit, we're missing theelement in your record, that's
not there yet. But this guy, EdSheeran is someone who has given
his everything is empty, it'scompletely empty. And he was
very proud of what he'dachieved. And he was waiting for
(12:29):
this standing ovation of howwonderful it was what it all
was, and he gets, yes, but andthen in his frustration in the
car, this moment is captured oncamera says that I know what
they want. I know exactly whatthey want, and I can deliver it,
you can see his anger. And thathit is I mean, I'm in love with
(12:53):
the shape of you. I'm in lovewith your body, I'm in love with
the shape of you. And then yougo, Oh my God, that album would
have existed without that track.
So you see what a little bit ofpush can drive creativity. So
it's it's wonderful to see andthen you learn from from these
(13:15):
things.
What are the key skills neededto survive and thrive as a
creative leader?
Well, that's a great question.
It's a great question. The firstone, I think would be
(13:37):
resilience. If the leader isdown and defeated, everybody
will notice. And they will say,because they're looking up to
the leader, the leader has toalways have a brave face or not
that you wouldn't be able toshow frustration. You're sad at
(13:57):
times, yes. But always, alwaysup for it. And that's a big
element. The other one is toconvince people from within.
People can detect glib talk fromfive miles away. You can you can
(14:17):
detect, if I'm really sayingwhat I mean. Or if I'm
memorizing a text that somebodyelse wrote so that I can I can
read and talk to you. And nowyou can detect that. You've
never met me before. You don'tknow me. But what I am seeing
and believing me, what I'mseeing is what I really feel.
(14:38):
And perhaps you will haveidentified that even before I
said it, and that element mustbe there. If you're leading
people who don't believe in thatmission yourself, people will
tell from a mile away and thatis something we need to find
that belief. So that's a greatsign. Superman quote when, in
(14:59):
those original movies in the70s, Superman is flying holding
Lois Lane's hand. And Lois Laneis very worried because she's
flying, this man is holding myhand. And she's very nervous.
And he says, Don't worry, I'mholding you. And she says yes,
but who's holding you.
(15:23):
So the leader has defined what'sholding me. And that can come
from books that can come fromstories that can come from life
that can come from your family,from anywhere, as long as you
find that thing that keeps yougoing from within Honest,
(15:45):
honest, honest. And it'sincredible. I've read, I've
tried to find these things inmoments of disbelief or despair
of self doubt. Impostersyndrome, all of that exists.
And it's all equally painful anddamaging and sapping. Good.
(16:07):
LinkedIn needs to know how to beahead and above these things,
somehow.
There was this moment when I hadjoined a company here in the UK.
(16:57):
And it was my first experiencehere in this country. And three
months in, we lost a big pieceof business and internal
movement of accounts. So it'snot that we weren't doing a good
job, it was an internal globalmove accounts. But that meant
that the specific office I wasworking at lost a third of its
(17:21):
revenue. And we had to come backfrom behind and with a brave
face on and find new businessand find the joy that creativity
needs to operate. And I went,where do I find that I am new to
this place, new to the company,new to the people I'm working
(17:43):
with. And we've just had thisbig hit, how can we fight back?
And my, my intuition was what isa local hero, I'll learn from
the local heroes that I won't beembarrassed to go as high as I
can. And my local hero is acontroversial name. But at that
(18:08):
point in time, I want to know, Iwanted to know why he was a hero
at that point. And that wasWinston Churchill. But I didn't
have time to read a very thickbiography because I needed to
act very quickly. So I lookedfor the thinnest biography of
Churchill I could find at Foylesthe bookstore, and I bought it
(18:30):
Churchill, his finest hour, isthe one I bought, and I
understood his mistakes. Iunderstood his flaws. I
understood why he connected whathis big points were, where he
got things, right, because hegot many things wrong, as we
know, too. And that fact thatthis the most admired British
(18:53):
person in history, according toa Paul had defects, Harry had
very visible defects had amediocre career, up until that
point. And even after he helpedmany countries, when the Second
World War and ran for PrimeMinister lost the election, and
(19:18):
he was devastated that he lostthe election. So all of that
felt very human without thatsugar coated story of everything
he said and did was rightbecause he was a genius. That
doesn't help. So that's where Iwent to find inspiration.
Roy Sharples (19:36):
I know that bookshop well; Foyes in
Piccadilly. Winston Churchillinspired people had a unique
strategic insight and refuse togive in to evil during extreme
adversity. And he led the way toprotect Great Britain and the
Commonwealth freedom by rallyinga nation and forming strategic
alliances with America and theSoviet Union in defiance. of
(20:00):
Hitler, and the Nazi regimedifferent, but similar creative
leaders, Mahatma Gandhi andMartin Luther King Jr. LED with
a nonviolent approach ininfluencing later resistance by
global movements like similarlywith Nelson Mandela, who
rebelled against the apartheidregime and aiming to remove
(20:22):
racism and eradicate poverty andinequality. And South Africa.
And also another PresidentAbraham Lincoln, who defied all
odds to become president byenacting measures to oppose and
abolish slavery in America. Butthe point being is, these
leaders stood for purpose,reason and conviction, by seeing
(20:45):
their policies through to thebitter end with resilience,
grit, and the solidarity, thesolitary intent of making
humanity better, they did thingsthat had never been done before.
And they rejected failure andswim against the tide, to
provide novel solutions tocomplex problems that we didn't
know could exist. And as aresult, they formed a new
(21:09):
movement, culture, norms, and away of life. But the common
thread that goes through thesecreative leaders is that they
were flawed. And they did makemistakes, that once they
matured, land and reflected,they were all ultimately driven
by one common characteristic.
They wanted a better world and abetter outcome for humanity.
Andre (Dede) Laurentino (21:35):
And I must say, just for the sake of
sanity, not for one moment did Ithink that what I had to do was
even remotely comparable to whatto do. It's just that I felt Oh,
my job is actually easy. He hadthis very difficult task, lives
were at stake. And this is howhe did I just went to see what
(21:57):
were the elements that madeChurchill, a British hero that
resonates in the culture inwhich I was also leaving,
although everything else isabsolutely different to to watch
her tools facing, of course, I'mnot saying that for one second.
(22:18):
It's what I wait forinspiration, not tips.
So as you reflect upon your lifeand career to date, what are
your lessons learned in terms ofthe pitfalls to avoid? And the
keys to success that you canshare with existing, but also
aspiring creative leaders?
(22:39):
That's that's also a greatquestion. Well, learning what
pitfalls to avoid is a memorydraining lesson because I keep
falling onto them and learningnew ones. So that's always
learned. I think I've been veryfortunate to have worked with
wonderful people, and couldobserve and memorize sometimes
(23:04):
even consciously, what is itthat I loved about them? What is
it that made me admire want tobe like them. And it's essential
that we have these people in ourlives. And they will not just in
advertise, they will not just mybosses, they were friends. They
were people. I had my firstcreative director back in his
(23:28):
city, where I come from, it's acity in the Northeast of Brazil.
And it was a tiny agency in atiny city. And this was a
creative director, I was 17Sorry, 1819 At that point, and
that man was teaching me a lotabout life. He was a creative
(23:49):
director, but he was a verygenerous person. And he noticed
that I was a trainee there. Andhe noticed my curiosity, and he
noticed my keen intent inlearning about this profession.
And it said, Oh, he started toinvite me to his meetings that
(24:11):
he had in his house everyThursday evening with the owner
of the agency to talk aboutopera and literature. And then
he would have dinner with hiswife and they order and meet the
stray knee. And those Thursdayevenings taught me so much. I
may have not understood maybe Idid, not even half of what they
(24:35):
were saying. It was really abovemy head, but I could see the
passion. I could see how theytalked about that and how they
came alive. And I went all theresult. They're seeing a
difference because he wouldwatch the opera together. And I
noticed afterwards, they watcheda different thing. Yeah, I
didn't see half of what theysaw. I want to see that it's as
(24:58):
if they're A perception of lifeenable them to, to withdraw from
life, every single second of it.
And I was missing chunks by thehour, in my obtuse, small
minded, closed doors toperception. And that was
(25:19):
something I learned from him tospot in whoever it is the will.
And and the spirit that meritsyou saying, let me share this
with you, let me take you onthis journey. And he did that to
this trainee who was me. And I'mvery grateful to that person
(25:42):
gyro, his name is unfortunatelypassed away, but he became a
friend for life. Because Ilearned so much from him. And
the owner, it'll be onkey, anItalian man, proper renaissance
man who fled the war, to live inBrazil. And he was he was
obsessive about learning andknowing being the best at what
(26:07):
he does and having the highestof standards in this tiny agency
in his sci fi. So it showed alsoto me that it doesn't depend on
the budgets or the kind ofclients you have. We were doing
retail ads weekly, but what theywanted from those retail ads and
how the type needed to be in thecurling and what typography did
(26:30):
you choose and why taught me somuch.
That's an admirable and greatthing to do by the creative
director that you named checked.
He obviously saw somethingcompelling in you where he felt
compelled to let you enter hisworld, and a mentorship,
apprenticeship capacity thathelped expose you very early on
in your career, in a way to beable to stand on the shoulders
(26:54):
of giants by seeking consultantfrom non consulting seeking
counsel, on my by seeking, letme rewind back and say that
again. He obviously sawsomething compelling in you
where he felt compelled to letyou into his world, and the
mentorship, apprenticeshipcapacity that really exposed you
(27:16):
very early on in your career tohelp you stand on the shoulders
of giants by seeking counsel.
And it really helps us well,obviously, if it's people you
trust, respect and, and admire.
But I think that's a keymessage. And a key trait that
comes across many creativepeople's upbringing and
(27:38):
education is the ability to seekand find positive role models
really early on, and yourdevelopment who can share their
skills, insights and expertisethat help nurture your ideas.
What's your vision for thefuture of creative agencies, and
the role of creativity.
(27:59):
Of course, we're at this biglong inflection point where we
were coming from extremespecialism because we were
specialists in precisely fourmedia's right. And we do
everything about those radio outof home print and TV. And we had
decades to study the samelength, there was very little
(28:23):
change for decades, so we couldreally understand. And then all
of a sudden, it's free. Now allof those swimming lanes were
removed. And the industry is isof course, much better than what
it was 10 years ago, five yearsago, in that sense. The other
(28:45):
big transformation, which isfinally here, still
transformation. But finally hereis diversity of creative people
in creative thinking and lifeexperiences, be it in gender
balance, be it in socialdiversity, racial diversity,
(29:05):
ethnic everything, it's finallycoming and not because it's a
nice PR story in a nice photo.
But because it brings differentthinking, genuine difference in
the thinking. And that's theroot of creativity is mixing
things that weren't togetherbefore to create a third that is
(29:27):
now real. And this is happeningon all kinds of level from the
diversity of disciplines aswell. And you have a data driven
creative, working with adesigner or a social media
specialist creative working witha typical brand conceptual
(29:48):
thinker. These things producenew stuff. And technology is
allowing us to do more and moreand I I think we just need to
have that same spirit that wehad when we were beginning to
just take it all in and see whatwe can do. And now the big
teacher of that is PabloPicasso. He said all wood,
(30:11):
that's interesting. What can Ido with wood pine? He would do
wood, carvings and paper. Can Iplay with paper and makes paper
sculptures? wires? Can I bendthese wires with this guitar and
make a sculpture? Oh, can I makea vase? Can I make sculptures?
Can I pink, and then whenphotography was invented, he
(30:34):
said, Can I paint with light.
And then there was the famousseries of the long exposure and
Picasso's painting drawing withlight, something he would only
see at that point, we dayslater, when, when the
photography was photographs aredeveloped, that is a proper
creative spirit, that thatdoesn't say, Oh, that's not how
(30:57):
I paint, I need to see what ishappening on the screen, not
with light in a camera. So thatapproach that because of WESC
thirst and appetite and sheerjoy of trying things, is what
the industry is experimentingright now. And it's just
(31:18):
amazing. What's not here yet andmakes it a little bit
uncomfortable is we haven't hadthe results yet. We haven't seen
the developed photo photographyet. But we're just making it
and we will see it in 10 yearstime and 15 is fine. But best
thing is it's always been likethis impressionism was being
(31:40):
invented. Nobody knew if it wasgood or bad. They were just
painting. And now everyonereveals it. But at that point,
it was shocking. So all thesenew kinds of music that's coming
up, and, and my kids areteaching me stuff. And
everything that I listened to isold, and it's amazing. It's
phenomenally energizing. So thefuture is, we're making it right
(32:05):
now. We're making the future nowand it is what we make of it. So
it's very interesting.
Yes, the future belongs to thosewho can see it coming. Your
point about Pablo Picasso waspoignant. He believed all
children are artists. But losercreativity growing up, so grew
into not out of creativity. Anddon't give up on your childhood
(32:28):
dreams, and your approach to theworld through a child's eyes.
Learn, innovate, and never wastea second on anything that seems
to restrict you. So keep true tothe dreams of your youth and
create outside the boundaries.
Creativity is ordinary peopledoing extraordinary things.
Creativity can be applied toevery profession and domain
(32:49):
because it is found in allaspects of life. It isn't
something lost with age, but askill we too often neglect to
practice. The challenge is notlearning new things, as this
will inevitably happen as weexplore, travel, learn and grow.
Instead, the challenge iskeeping our childlike wonder and
imagination alive and having thecourage to combine those things
(33:13):
with our new experiences andinsight.
Roy Sharples (33:25):
Do you want to learn more about how to create
Without Frontiers then considergetting CREATIVITY WITHOUT
frontiers. How to make theinvisible visible by lighting
the way into the future. It'savailable in print, digital and
audio on all relevant bookplatforms. You have been
(33:45):
listening to the unknown originspodcast please follow subscribe
rate and review us for moreinformation go to unknown
origins.com Thank you forlistening
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.