December 4, 2024 • 40 mins
Healing our relationship with attention begins with noticing the ways in which our natural need for attention has been damaged. In a society that commodifies attention and polices who and what is allowed attention, we develop a distorted relationship with a core aspect of how we connect to each other. This disconnection feeds feelings of isolation and loneliness, leaving us vulnerable to systems that exploit our need to feel seen and heard. By addressing the shame around seeking attention and understanding its role in genuine connection, we can start to reclaim our capacity for presence, care, and community in a way that fosters deeper relationships and collective healing.
In this episode of Unlimited, I invited Cher Hale (she/her), to join me in a conversation about the weaponization of attention and healing our relationship with attention.
Some of what we talk about in this episode includes:
- The stigmatization of seeking attention
- Shifting from unhealthy to intentional attention
- Individualism’s role in loneliness and disconnection
- Using visibility for collective empowerment
LINKS FROM THIS EPISODE:
The Slow Build to & the Life-Saving Payoff of Asking for Attention
The Seven Necessary Sins for Women and Girls by Mona Eltahawy
Learning Self-Advocacy to Strengthen Collective Action with Jenique Jones
Swimmy by Leo Lionni
Holiday Stress Support
CONNECT WITH CHER:
Substack: For the Attention
Website
CONNECT WITH VALERIE:
Website
Instagram
Facebook
Get email updates
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Valerie Friedlander (00:00):
Hello, my friends and welcome to another
(00:02):
episode of Unlimited. Today, weare talking about healing our
relationship with attention. Ourrelationship with attention is
unhealthy in this society. Ithas become so distorted by so
many layers. Now, the layer thatI have typically thought about
more recently, at least, isattention, capitalism and the
(00:24):
commodifying of our attention,which is really icky. So I've
been struggling with myrelationship with social media
and a lot of online spacesbecause of the way in which we
are activated, ourNeuropsychology is manipulated
(00:45):
to hold our attention and keepus caught up and activated,
instead of able to be presentand really connected. So these
spaces where in some ways, weconnect, we are not truly
connecting. And in a lot ofways, our aggression, our
(01:06):
struggles and lack of skillaround conflict is turning into
this magnification of disconnectinstead of real connection. So
that's where my focus has beenmore recently, I was in a
conversation with Cher Hale, andshe was talking about the idea
(01:29):
of our attention beingweaponized in terms of asking
for attention, and the shame andshaming that is so prevalent in
our society around asking forattention, particularly so for
women and people with othermarginalized identities, the
asking for attention isweaponized. And I was like, oh,
(01:54):
that's fascinating, and reallykind of at the core of some of
our healing, because that'swhere we start to disconnect
early on, this disconnection of,oh, I can't ask for attention. I
can't have needs, essentially,is what it comes down to,
because we're social creatures,so we need somebody's attention,
especially as a small child, weneed attention, and yet that
(02:18):
turns into something we'resupposed to be ashamed of in
this individualized society,this society that upholds
individualization and being selfsufficient and all of that sort
of stuff. So being able toengage that level hits on a
deeper level of disconnectionthat I'm sure then allows room
(02:44):
for attention capitalism to suckus in, because it's this way of
connecting that's not reallyconnecting. Gabor Mate talks
about addiction, and the thingsthat we use for addiction are
things that give us a sense ofbetterment. It kind of sort of
(03:05):
solves the problem that wehaving or the pain that we're
experiencing, but not doesn'treally so that we keep wanting
more. And I see that in so manyof these online spaces, where we
are becoming more and moredisconnected, more and more
isolated and alone, and thereare roots in the need for
(03:29):
attention, the need to be seen,the need to be cared for. So I
invited Cher Hale to have thisconversation with me, because
this is a big focus of her andexploration as someone who owns
a PR agency, it has stood out,particularly for her. So she is
(03:50):
the founder and director ofgingko PR, an agency that uses
public relations to create amore equitable media landscape
as a Taiwanese black Americanwoman, Cher is passionate about
leveraging the power of themedia to take back narratives
that have been traditionallytold for under recognized
authors and entrepreneurs. Oneof the ways she does this is by
(04:13):
highlighting how the act ofasking for attention has been
weaponized against us when she'snot pitching. You can find her
revising her first novel,rollerblading or hiking anywhere
near water. She lives inSpokane, Washington, unseated
cour de Lane tribe territorywith her three year old
daughter. Some of the thingsthat we talk about are the
(04:35):
stigma of seeking attention,shifting from unhealthy to
intentional attention,individualisms role in
loneliness and disconnection andusing visibility for collective
empowerment. Of course, we talkabout so much more, and I want
to share the rest of a quotethat we talk about in the
episode that I didn't share thewholeness of she shares it in
(04:58):
one of her sub stacks that i.
Have linked in the show notes,but it's from the seven
necessary sins for women andgirls, and it says attention is
a reward, a burden, a taunt, ataint, an accusation. Attention
is a bone that patriarchydangles in front of women. If we
want it too much, we're whoresif we don't want attention, when
it determines we should have it.
(05:21):
It stalks and beats us with it.
We can't win share in the substack invites our reflection and
awareness that seizing attentionis an inevitable skill that we
must build if we want to movethe needle in the direction of
the vision we have in ourhearts. I know that you're going
to love this episode before wedig in, I want to let you know
(05:44):
two things. One is that we gotinto a conversation after this
recording that I then recordedbecause it was so juicy. So
there will be bonus interviewcoming soon. So definitely keep
your eyes out for that. Andalso, if you are feeling the
stress of the holiday season,this winter season, I have put
(06:08):
together a page of resources tohelp processing stress and
showing up with less reactivityand more responsiveness, more
intentional responsiveness. Soif that is something that you
would like, that will also belinked in the show notes. And
now, without further ado, let'sget started.
(06:29):
Hey there. I'm ValerieFriedlander, Certified Life
business alignment coach, andthis is unlimited. This podcast
bridges the individual and thesocietal, scientific and
spiritual, positive andnegative, nerdy and no, there's
just a lot of nerdy. Come onboard and let's unlock a light
that's as bad ass as you are.
(06:59):
Welcome, Cher. I'm so excited tohave you on the podcast today.
Cher Hale (07:04):
I am so happy to be here with you, Valerie.
Valerie Friedlander (07:06):
Before we dive in, I want to ask you my
question about you, which is,what is a limit that you took
for granted that you have sinceunlearned.
Cher Hale (07:20):
When I thought about this question, the first thing
that came to mind was the energyand effort it takes to build
relationships that I definitelyused to take for granted. I can
think of so many friends andmembers of my family who put a
lot of energy into reaching outto me, trying to create bonds
(07:41):
when I was younger and lesswise, I definitely took those
efforts for granted, and now, atthis stage in my life, with
community being a core componentof of who I see like how I'm
becoming into myself, I just canno longer to get for granted,
and I so honor and respect andI'm grateful for the people who
(08:06):
really made an effort to connectwith me early on.
Valerie Friedlander (08:09):
Yeah, yeah, I have found myself in a lot of
spaces where I'm the one whoputs in a lot of the effort, and
I don't mind that, and Irecognize it so much more,
because I don't have as muchcapacity as I used to have. I
have so many other things as aparent and as an activist and
all of these things that I'mdoing to pour into and I
(08:33):
appreciate that idea of who I ambecoming, that constant
evolution and the vulnerabilitythat it takes, which I think is
something that is part of theeffort, at least for me, there's
a certain amount ofvulnerability in reaching out
and putting effort into arelationship, because it means
(08:55):
that what if it's notreciprocated, You know, like,
what if, all the what ifs allthe possibilities, and that ties
us into that idea of attention.
There's a vulnerability inattention that I know a lot of
my clients struggle with, and Ijust want to open the floor to
(09:17):
you to maybe share a little bitabout like, what attracted you
to attention as a concept as afocal point?
Cher Hale (09:30):
Yes, it really began with my daughter, who is now
three and a half, almost fouryears old. And I just kept
reading these pieces fromparents. I mean, the the advice
for so long is like, Oh, they'redoing it for the attention. And
I kept getting this messagelike, oh, well, if she's doing
it for the attention, like,here's how to handle it. And I
(09:51):
kept thinking like, this doesn'tsit right with me. And I think
once I unpack this idea of like,how do I approach my child in a
way that's loving andcompassionate? That when she
wants attention, she gets lovein return. I began to connect it
to other aspects of my work,which is, I think, how most
things happen in our lives,right? Like nothing is
(10:12):
disconnected from the other. SoI began thinking, well, she's
not doing it with attention. AndI see so many entrepreneurs who
are getting flack for wanting togo viral or wanting to be seen
in it in a really big way, orhaving troubles promoting
themselves and like, what's thehold up here? And the more that
(10:32):
I untangled these threads, themore that I was like, well, it's
what the problem is foreverything. It's a it's our
capitalist post colonialistwhite settler mentality in
America, like it's it's all ofour systems, um, infiltrating
our minds and our bodies to stopus from doing what we want and
to being seen for who we are, sothat we stay with the status
(10:55):
quo. And when I connected thatto public relations and how this
is my job, right to ask peoplefor attention. I thought, Oh my
God. Like, there's so much herethat I could talk about to help
people realize that theirrelationship with attention is
being co opted by the system,and that we have agency to take
it back.
Valerie Friedlander (11:16):
That's so big. Because again, like I work
with a lot of people, and mymyself has struggled with that
idea of drawing attention tomyself and I'm an Aries, like,
I'm all like, Hey, you too. Andit's just like, when I read that
idea of like, an Aries is thebaby of Zodiac. So they're like,
Ooh, you know, looking justenamored with fingers and toes.
(11:37):
Because you think babies arelike they see their hand, and
when they see their hand ortheir feet for the first time,
they're just like, wow, soDidn't you see this? It's
amazing. And then we startgetting the story that we
shouldn't want attention. And Ihad never thought about that
connection before, of as kids,oh, they're doing it for the
(12:01):
attention, and somehow that'swrong, like, somehow they don't
deserve attention. Like, yes,you do. And so there's a quote
that you wrote in one of theessays that you shared with me
recently, and it's from is MonaEltahawy. How do you do you know
(12:27):
how you pronounce that?
Cher Hale (12:28):
I think it's going to Mona Eltahawy.
Valerie Friedlander (12:29):
Okay, Mona Eltahawy. And one of the things
she says is "the most subversivething a woman can do is talk
about her life as if it reallymatters, because it does. It is
in the name of that subversion,for the sake of defying the
patriarchy, that we mustdeclare, I deserve attention. I
(12:52):
demand attention, and my life isimportant. My views are
important, and they deserveattention. We must understand
the importance and power ofbeing attention whores.
Cher Hale (13:05):
I feel like I'm hin church.
Valerie Friedlander (13:07):
Yeah,
Cher Hale (13:09):
So beautiful.
Valerie Friedlander (13:11):
You know, that hits in a particular way
for me, I want to cry, and thattells me that there's a wound
there. What does that speak toyou?
Cher Hale (13:20):
Yes, when I first read that quote, which was on
recommendation from Toi Smith, Ihad made this big change in my
messaging. And she was like, bythe way, share, have you read
this? And I said, No. And when Iwas going through the chapter, I
was like, this is everything.
This is everything that I wasintuiting, but didn't have,
maybe the language or thehistory to back it up, or
articulate it. And there's somuch in there that I can see now
(13:43):
attention on a spectrum right,from believing that we have the
power to ask for it at all, toasking for it, to wanting for
it, to asking for and then todemanding it. And for me, that's
like it's you can see theevolution of a consciousness
through that spectrum. And Ilove the idea that we can build
(14:06):
ourselves up with courage andcommunity to reach those levels
for the collective good.
Valerie Friedlander (14:14):
Yeah. Well, that speaks to one of the the
other things that you wrote inthere, which had to do with the
idea of asking for attention,receiving attention, giving
attention and sharing attention.
Would you speak a little bitmore about that dynamic?
Cher Hale (14:40):
Yes, yes, absolutely.
I think that even when we havethe courage to begin to ask for
attention, we might deflectwhatever comes our way as it
comes because we're notcomfortable with being in that
space of reception. So forexample, I really needed help
with child care and. Just neededmaybe two or three extra hours,
maybe every two weeks. And Iasked a friend who's also an
(15:04):
entrepreneur here, if we'd bewilling to switch on and off,
I'd watch her children while sheworks, and then vice versa. And
when the time came to ask forattention, for the for the help
that I needed, and she was like,Yes. I was like, Oh, well,
actually, only an hour is okay.
You know, we don't have to, wedon't have to go that long. I
don't, I don't want to be aburden to you. And there's,
(15:25):
that's the space. I mean, right?
When we ask for the attentionthat we need, for the attention
on our work, for example, I'masking for attention on my work
to be to give, like, the timeand space for it. And she says,
Yes, I'm happy to help. And thenI say, actually, I'm asking for
too much, right? So we can wantthe attention, ask the
attention, but still havetrouble receiving the attention.
And so there's a work to be donethere. And then I think also
(15:48):
there's the idea that this is awe live in a cycle, right? So
we're asking what we're wanting.
We're asking we're receiving,but we also need to give and
share as well. Because what Neoliberal ideology has taught us
over our lifetimes is that weare in an individualistic
(16:08):
pursuit, and look where that hasgotten us, this idea, right,
this mentality. And the truth isthat we are in a collective
pursuit, and when we open up thecycle to include those actions,
then we have so much more spaceto expand and to like, Dream
brighter futures and to see morepossibilities, and that's the
space that I really want toinhabit as a citizen of this
(16:32):
world.
Valerie Friedlander (16:32):
Yeah, it's wild to me, the idea of
individualism, it just itdoesn't really make any sense,
because we are, at such a basiclevel, herd creatures, and I
suppose maybe it's tied to thisidea of we've evolved to be like
individuals or whatever, but ata very basic level, our brain
(16:56):
still Functions primarily withthe the need for belonging, and
with that means that we needeach other. We need each other's
attention and care, and so tothink that we can just be alone,
it's come into this reallydistorted way of being in the
(17:21):
world, because we are cravingattention. This epidemic evolves
right like we're cravingattention and we can't receive
it, or we've been conditioned tonot allow it in, and if we can't
allow it in, then all our focusis going on that lack and we
can't give it because we don'thave the capacity, because we're
not receiving it, because we'renot allowing ourselves to
(17:43):
receive it, and then we feelresentful of giving it. And of
course, like the idea ofsharing, it's right out what I'm
supposed to I'm supposed to,like, step back and let you
nobody's giving to me, like,that whole and that just eats
everything. How can we possiblydevelop and grow and thrive
(18:07):
alone?
Cher Hale (18:09):
I absolutely hear you. This is the question of my
current time, right? I just keepwondering if we're so focused on
trying to get attention in waysthat are not holistic or
healthy, right? And we know whatthese are, right? We live in a
capitalist context. Then, ofcourse, we're distracted from
(18:29):
doing anything about ourpolitical state. Of course,
we're distracted about betteringour own lives, and this is
exactly where they want us,right? And I just, I refuse to,
like, play in to that idea thatI can't have what I want and get
it in a way that doesn't costanything,
Valerie Friedlander (18:50):
Yeah, and doesn't harm anybody.
Cher Hale (18:52):
Yes!
Valerie Friedlander (18:53):
We don't have to harm other people in
order to have our needs met.
Yes, if we actually created astructure that allowed for that.
And it is remarkable to me that,like, as we were talking about
this, I think about, well, whenpeople call me, they want to do
(19:13):
work with me. I ask why, andthey usually tell me that is
what they don't want. Like, Idon't like this, then I want
this to change. So we have toshift. Okay? Well, if this
wasn't true, then what would betrue? Like, what? What is it
that we're looking for? Becauseyou can't create something if
you're only focused on what youdon't want. And so we had, like,
(19:37):
so many people have talked aboutthis where we are right now as a
failure of imagination. Wefailed to imagine a world that
actually honored our humanity,which is collective. Our
humanity isn't individualistic.
It's collective, because that'swhat we're wired from. That.
(19:59):
That's like the kind ofcreatures we are. So we have to
be able to imagine somethingdifferent. We have to be able to
vision something different andand it really seems like that
idea of of being seen. I mean,we've been so conditioned that
it's dangerous to be seen,because, you know, there's a
vulnerability in being seen. SoI need to put on a mask. I need
(20:24):
to put on a facade. And ofcourse, certain identities are
much more at risk in being seen.
And so I think about with the,you know, as a white woman, What
is that look like, in terms ofso money pushes to, like, share
attention, right? Like, I have aplatform. How am I utilizing
that platform, and whether it's,you know, a podcast or a space
(20:46):
that I occupy in my kids schoolor in my community? Like, how do
I uplift other people's voicesso they can have attention? But
how am I doing that in a waythat also recognizes the dangers
in our current system ofallowing for that attention?
(21:08):
Like, how do I place myself as aboth a, I want to say, like a a
shield as well as an amplifier.
Cher Hale (21:24):
Yes, I hear you, yeah, because true for
marginalized identities, peoplewho have been historically under
recognized. There is so muchfear in our bodies from
generations past of when you askfor what you want, there are
consequences to being seen andto trying to wield power, and
(21:46):
that has been definitely 100%ingrained in us. And there is
this, this idea of Angela yDavis, who is the feminist
political activist, talks a lotabout how people like Nelson
Mandela or Martin Luther Kingdid not want to be sanctified,
because the state will sanctifyactivists like this to show you
what happens to them, so thatthey can give us the fear that
(22:10):
we remember throughoutgenerations now. This is what
happens when you try to speakout and be different and be
seen. Yeah, and I think I meanone, it's right, the healing
that we need to do, bothindividually and collectively
for those wounds, to addressthose wounds and to remember
that we are safer in community,right? If we find our
(22:33):
communities where we can shieldeach other, then it's not a one
on one job, right? Then we havethe collective behind us, and
that's what we've I think we'vebeen forgetting when we feel
unsafe, we have to go into thesafe spaces that we've created
that we've cultivated ourselves.
Valerie Friedlander (22:49):
Yeah, well, and, and that reminds me about
just also recognizing that thestories that the dominant
culture tends to tell aboutpeople being that they are
individuals, and obscuring thenumber of people that were part
of a movement, part of what wasbeing said. If we can make it an
(23:13):
individual, then we make it sothat it seems like everybody
else can't do it, that it's notpossible for all of us in our
different places, in ourdifferent roles for movement,
for action, and that importanceof collective action, actually
(23:34):
one of the interviews I just didWith Janique about advocacy,
learning to self advocate. Thatwas one of the things that she
really pulled forward, was theimportance of it's a collective
work, and you can't solvecollective problems as an
individual like it has to becollective solutions. We have to
dream together. And so that issomething that I run into, and
(23:59):
I'm curious about your thinkingaround this. This is one of the
things that I know I run into,is, who am I to who am I to
speak here? Who am I to engagethis? Who am I to demand
attention? And I imagine thereneeds to be a reflective process
(24:23):
of, well, what does that mean?
What does that look like? Am Istepping into a space that's not
mine? What is my role? What ismy place in the communal effort
recognizing that it's not justme, and I think it ties into
what you're talking about, ofsharing attention. And like,
what does it look like to callattention, maybe not to myself,
(24:47):
but to an issue or concern or apurpose? And I'd love to hear
your thoughts along that andlike, what you see when you're
working with people.
Cher Hale (24:59):
Yeah. This all comes down to self belief for me, and
that's from my perspective aslike a multicultural woman who
cannot pass as anything but whatI am, a single mom, right,
raised by a single mom for along time, like I have these
perspectives coming into thisconversation. Just be clear for
the context. For me, it was selfbelief. I didn't think that I
(25:22):
deserved to tell my stories orto ask questions or to share
opinions, not because I didn'thave something to say I always
did internally, but because Ididn't want to rock the boat. I
didn't want to be seen as atroublemaker. I wanted to keep
the status quo in terms of like,what are people to like me? And
(25:46):
I didn't have the belief that Iwould be okay otherwise. So for
me, it's a story ofco-dependence, right? This is a
story of emotional outsourcing,as my client, Victoria Albina,
says, where I just it was somuch more important to me as a
survival strategy, to be likedand to please and to be perfect,
and that kept me from doinganything for a very long time or
(26:07):
saying anything for a very longtime. I'm in a stage now in my
life where I'm I'm having tounlearn the belief that I can't
bring a new perspective orsomething fresh or interesting
to a conversation in the spaceswhere I'm in right or I can make
things up and they can be usefulfor people, or I can use my
(26:28):
imagination for the collectivegood. And that's a massive
unlearning. I'm going throughthat I don't need to be an
expert or a thought leader. Ican be a citizen with opinions.
Valerie Friedlander (26:41):
I love that, and I'm so grateful that
you're sharing because thatthat's one of the things I find
with these conversations, andwhy I like them to be more
conversational than just like aninterview, is because I find so
much value in the conversation,whether it's a one to one to one
conversation or a groupconversation, that is where I
(27:03):
notice the evolution of an idea.
And I think, and I feel thatthere's a danger to being seen
right, that we were just talkingabout that, that idea of, like,
keeping the status quo feelssafe, and we're taught that if
we just do that, then we'll besafe, which is a lie. It doesn't
actually, I mean, it is to acertain extent, like, if you
(27:27):
uphold the systems, the systemwon't necessarily reward you,
but it might not like hurt youas directly as it would somebody
who's like trouble making you'renot going to face retaliation
for speaking up, but it's stillgonna hurt you. It's still gonna
do that like it's not gonna notand it's gonna do it more and
(27:48):
more as it can get away with it.
Cher Hale (27:51):
Yeah, and you know, you remind me, I think, often,
of Japanese internment, howJapanese were living here as
productive citizens, and afterPearl Harbor hit, it didn't
matter what you were saying, orhow good you were, how perfect
or how how contributive you wereto society, you were taken
anyway. The system didn't care.
This is a lesson from historythat we can take into our
(28:13):
future, right? That even if youdo everything right, quote,
unquote, the system will stillharm you. That's what it's
designed to do.
Valerie Friedlander (28:23):
Yes. Yeah, and, and it is a lesson that we
absolutely need to be takingright now, because that is a big
part of what we're going to belooking at, and being able to
stand together and callattention is going to be key in
our different ways of doingthat. I'm wondering, when you
(28:48):
think about your work in thiscontext, and I do, I want to
invite that conversation,particularly because I want
people to know about you andwhat you do and how you can
support because you're you'reactually engaging for people to
say, hey, you deserve to be seenand heard. How do you see your
(29:14):
work in this broader contextnow,
Cher Hale (29:21):
Like in this political atmosphere,
Valerie Friedlander (29:23):
In this...
Well, I mean, I don't think wecan extract ourselves from it,
unfortunately. I mean, I'd love.
Part of me wants to be like, la,la, la,
Cher Hale (29:33):
Totally.
Valerie Friedlander (29:34):
But we, you know that that that's not giving
it the attention it it requires,I want to say, requires, not the
attention it deserves. And thatmay be a distinction too, of
like, how do we think about howwe give attention and where we
give attention? And I'm curious,as somebody who works in
(29:55):
attention, what are you thinkingabout? What. When it comes to
this, and as you work withpeople, and what you'd like to
invite people to think about?
Cher Hale (30:08):
The first thing that comes to mind is, again, like an
Angela Davis inspiredreflection, which is, why do we
feel like we have to be expertson every current event to uphold
the site of justice. And so inour work, people are more and
more voicing right theiropinions or their beliefs on
(30:32):
things like Palestine and thegovernment, and we're being very
vocal. But there are also manyof us who aren't. Many of us are
holding back for fear ofalienating others. I just want
to remind people, you don't haveto be an expert on Palestine, on
the on the 100 year history ofthe Palestine conflict, to know
that genocide is wrong to saythat out loud. So there are
(30:52):
things that I think that's avery important point to start
with, that we can speak up forjustice without having to know
all of the details about whathappened in the conflict, and
then I would say there's a lotof like self reflection that has
to go on. Are there things thatyou want to be promoting that
you're not promoting? If you'renot, why not? When you are in
promotion, where you areengaging in promotion, are you
(31:14):
promoting only your work, or areyou doing the work to promote
others who have less access toprivilege than you do. Is there
a way that you can create asymbiotic relationship, or a
relationship where you upliftinstead of just show up as your
own? Because what happens theway that we heal our
(31:35):
relationships to attention, as Isee it, is that we first have to
remove ourselves from thatindividualistic context and walk
into a collectivist context. Andwhen we do that, the the weight
of promotion is lightened. Wedon't have to feel so heavy or
guilty about it, because we'renot doing it just for ourselves,
(31:56):
right? There's there's more atstake here. Those are my two
main thoughts right now.
Valerie Friedlander (32:01):
Yeah, I appreciate that that's a
powerful thought, because it iswhen helping join together or
develop an understanding likelike you were saying at the very
beginning, the energy ofrelationships, the energy that
has to be put intorelationships, it takes more
conscious energy to engage thesethings when the flow of our
(32:23):
systems is in the otherdirection. So we have to allow
space, to set aside space to dowhat is essentially swimming
upstream, counter cultural, toreally think about, okay, what
is alignment? Where do I connectwith other people? How do I
uplift in the work? How do Iintegrate? How do I collaborate?
(32:47):
And even taking collaborationout of an individualistic
context, because I've run intothat a lot of times, it's like
two people doing a thingtogether, instead of, like,
really, like generatingtogether, co creating, yeah,
like co-creating in a moreexpansive way, not like this
thing, but like in an expansiverelationship, building kind of
(33:09):
way, like I'm building arelationship with someone, with
other people in a broadercontext. What does it look like
to do that? And that's a bigreason, and you probably find
this a lot with people that youinteract with that like have
podcasts and stuff. That's a bigreason why I started a podcast
(33:30):
was to share ideas, but alsolike my own, but also other
people's, because we miss out onso much innovation and so much
creativity when we're onlylistening to ourselves or only
listening to people who looklike us, who have lived
experience like us, there's somuch creativity, so much idea
(33:50):
stifling, that happens andthat's not gonna that's not
gonna change anything.
Cher Hale (33:58):
Yeah, it reminds me very much of the way the
mainstream media takesnarratives and distorts images
and creates stereotypes againstcommunities and foments right
like destruction. And I think alot about how these
(34:19):
conversations where we stillhave access to our agency
through these mediums. They'reso important that we tell full
stories with context, nuance andcontradiction, because we are
allowed right where we'reallowed to be these full humans
within these spaces, in themainstream media outlets that
have been bought in solarcorporations, they just don't
(34:40):
allow for that kind ofstorytelling, and that's so
critical at this deflectionpoint in time, that we allow our
full selves to be seen, and thatwe tell those stories, the
details like our our ourcontradictions, that that make
us who we are as humans.
Valerie Friedlander (34:57):
Yeah, taking that risk and surrounding
ourselves with other people whoare willing to take that risk
with us. The the I think, oflike the school of fish that my
kids have this book swimmingabout this fish who wants to
travel and galvanizes theseother fish to, like create the
(35:19):
shape of a bigger fish so theycan swim free, freely through
the ocean, looking like a biggerfish, so that they're not
attacked anyway. That's just, I,that was the visual that came to
mind. Was the picture in thisbook about the fish. But that's,
that's how I I imagine it. Sothis is a big part of what you
(35:39):
do, helping people find thespaces to be able to share
themselves and what they do andthe amazingness that they have
to bring. Would you please sharewith everybody listening a
little bit more about what youdo and where they can find you?
Cher Hale (35:58):
Yeah, so when I am not trying to stoke revolution,
I am usually being a publicist,and I primarily work with
authors and entrepreneurs whoare from under recognized
communities, so bi, fuck, queer,disabled and neurodiverse. I
allocate most of my clientroster to those populations, and
(36:20):
the remaining 30% people who aresocial advocates or allies of
the causes. Sometimes peoplehave money to resource the
causes. That happens sometimesand I help them either plan
podcast tours or do ongoingbrand awareness as they build
their platforms, usually with abook in mind. People are very
(36:40):
interested in having a book tohang their hat on. And then I
also have a sub stack, which I'mobsessed with. Again, this
conversation, it's called doingit for the attention, and it's
all about how our attention hasbeen weaponized against us, and
how we can reclaim it from thesystem, so for our own
creativity, liberation.
Valerie Friedlander (37:00):
Yeah, I love it. So now, what does it
mean to you to be unlimited?
Cher Hale (37:07):
So much of what's happening now is, how can I
disinvest myself from what I'vebeen taught my whole life about
what's good or right or proper?
How do I know what thoughts aremy own and what I'm buying into?
Because, like, that's what I'vealways done or always been
taught, and I think every strandthat I untangle or break, quite
(37:30):
frankly, the freer I feel, themore unlimited I feel to claim
the space that is mine and touse my voice in the ways that
serve me, the people who arealso for justice and liberation.
Valerie Friedlander (37:46):
I love that. Thank you. And What song
do you listen to when you wantto access that sense of
unlimitedness?
Lately, I've been obsessed withJoy Oladokun.
Cher Hale (37:58):
Oh my god. I love her so much!
Unknown (37:59):
So much. I just saw her in I was like September in
Spokane, and it was just like,she is magic and majesty,
totally so soulful, so muchdepth and so funny. But her new
album just came out, and one ofthe songs on the album is
(38:21):
flowers, and the line in it thatjust gets me for this sentiment,
is, I built a home on themountain you said I couldn't
climb. And there's so much wecould unpack there about what
that means to make a space foryourself where you were allowed.
But that's that's the line,that's the song that gives me
(38:42):
that sense of anything ispossible.
Valerie Friedlander (38:44):
Yeah, I love that and that, yeah. I
mean, like that could be a wholepodcast episode. It's great.
Well, thank you so much, Cherfor coming on and giving us all
this food for thought. Thankyou.
Cher Hale (39:01):
Yes, you're welcome, and thank you for giving me the
space this I'm really, I wouldsay, early in my thinking about
this and how it intersects withour lives as entrepreneurs and
within the system, as citizensand as parents and as friends
and like lovers. And so there'sso much that I still have yet to
learn that I'm very excitedabout. So I hope that you all
will follow along as I as Ifigure it out, and we can
(39:23):
collectively ideate togetherwhat comes next for us.
Valerie Friedlander (39:26):
Yes, yes, everybody, definitely. All the
links are going to be in theshow notes, so please check
those out and follow along. Ithink this is an important
ongoing conversation, as wefigure out imagining a world
where we're actually honoringour humanity and other people's
humanity and all of that. Sothank you for this generative
(39:50):
conversation.
Cher Hale (39:51):
Thank you, Valerie,
Valerie Friedlander (39:52):
Thanks for listening. I so appreciate you
being here. If you got somethingout of today's episode, please
share it. Leave me a review.
Take a screenshot. And post iton social with a shout out to
me. Send it to a friend, or, youknow, all of the above. Want to
hang out more, join me onInstagram, or, better yet, get
on my mailing list to make sureyou don't miss out on anything.
And remember your possibilitiesare as unlimited as you are.
(40:15):
Allow yourself to shine, myfriend, the world needs your
light. See you next time you.
Hello, my friends and welcome to another
(00:02):
episode of Unlimited. Today, weare talking about healing our
relationship with attention. Ourrelationship with attention is
unhealthy in this society. Ithas become so distorted by so
many layers. Now, the layer thatI have typically thought about
more recently, at least, isattention, capitalism and the
(00:24):
commodifying of our attention,which is really icky. So I've
been struggling with myrelationship with social media
and a lot of online spacesbecause of the way in which we
are activated, ourNeuropsychology is manipulated
(00:45):
to hold our attention and keepus caught up and activated,
instead of able to be presentand really connected. So these
spaces where in some ways, weconnect, we are not truly
connecting. And in a lot ofways, our aggression, our
(01:06):
struggles and lack of skillaround conflict is turning into
this magnification of disconnectinstead of real connection. So
that's where my focus has beenmore recently, I was in a
conversation with Cher Hale, andshe was talking about the idea
(01:29):
of our attention beingweaponized in terms of asking
for attention, and the shame andshaming that is so prevalent in
our society around asking forattention, particularly so for
women and people with othermarginalized identities, the
asking for attention isweaponized. And I was like, oh,
(01:54):
that's fascinating, and reallykind of at the core of some of
our healing, because that'swhere we start to disconnect
early on, this disconnection of,oh, I can't ask for attention. I
can't have needs, essentially,is what it comes down to,
because we're social creatures,so we need somebody's attention,
especially as a small child, weneed attention, and yet that
(02:18):
turns into something we'resupposed to be ashamed of in
this individualized society,this society that upholds
individualization and being selfsufficient and all of that sort
of stuff. So being able toengage that level hits on a
deeper level of disconnectionthat I'm sure then allows room
(02:44):
for attention capitalism to suckus in, because it's this way of
connecting that's not reallyconnecting. Gabor Mate talks
about addiction, and the thingsthat we use for addiction are
things that give us a sense ofbetterment. It kind of sort of
(03:05):
solves the problem that wehaving or the pain that we're
experiencing, but not doesn'treally so that we keep wanting
more. And I see that in so manyof these online spaces, where we
are becoming more and moredisconnected, more and more
isolated and alone, and thereare roots in the need for
(03:29):
attention, the need to be seen,the need to be cared for. So I
invited Cher Hale to have thisconversation with me, because
this is a big focus of her andexploration as someone who owns
a PR agency, it has stood out,particularly for her. So she is
(03:50):
the founder and director ofgingko PR, an agency that uses
public relations to create amore equitable media landscape
as a Taiwanese black Americanwoman, Cher is passionate about
leveraging the power of themedia to take back narratives
that have been traditionallytold for under recognized
authors and entrepreneurs. Oneof the ways she does this is by
(04:13):
highlighting how the act ofasking for attention has been
weaponized against us when she'snot pitching. You can find her
revising her first novel,rollerblading or hiking anywhere
near water. She lives inSpokane, Washington, unseated
cour de Lane tribe territorywith her three year old
daughter. Some of the thingsthat we talk about are the
(04:35):
stigma of seeking attention,shifting from unhealthy to
intentional attention,individualisms role in
loneliness and disconnection andusing visibility for collective
empowerment. Of course, we talkabout so much more, and I want
to share the rest of a quotethat we talk about in the
episode that I didn't share thewholeness of she shares it in
(04:58):
one of her sub stacks that i.
Have linked in the show notes,but it's from the seven
necessary sins for women andgirls, and it says attention is
a reward, a burden, a taunt, ataint, an accusation. Attention
is a bone that patriarchydangles in front of women. If we
want it too much, we're whoresif we don't want attention, when
it determines we should have it.
(05:21):
It stalks and beats us with it.
We can't win share in the substack invites our reflection and
awareness that seizing attentionis an inevitable skill that we
must build if we want to movethe needle in the direction of
the vision we have in ourhearts. I know that you're going
to love this episode before wedig in, I want to let you know
(05:44):
two things. One is that we gotinto a conversation after this
recording that I then recordedbecause it was so juicy. So
there will be bonus interviewcoming soon. So definitely keep
your eyes out for that. Andalso, if you are feeling the
stress of the holiday season,this winter season, I have put
(06:08):
together a page of resources tohelp processing stress and
showing up with less reactivityand more responsiveness, more
intentional responsiveness. Soif that is something that you
would like, that will also belinked in the show notes. And
now, without further ado, let'sget started.
(06:29):
Hey there. I'm ValerieFriedlander, Certified Life
business alignment coach, andthis is unlimited. This podcast
bridges the individual and thesocietal, scientific and
spiritual, positive andnegative, nerdy and no, there's
just a lot of nerdy. Come onboard and let's unlock a light
that's as bad ass as you are.
(06:59):
Welcome, Cher. I'm so excited tohave you on the podcast today.
Cher Hale (07:04):
I am so happy to be here with you, Valerie.
Valerie Friedlander (07:06):
Before we dive in, I want to ask you my
question about you, which is,what is a limit that you took
for granted that you have sinceunlearned.
Cher Hale (07:20):
When I thought about this question, the first thing
that came to mind was the energyand effort it takes to build
relationships that I definitelyused to take for granted. I can
think of so many friends andmembers of my family who put a
lot of energy into reaching outto me, trying to create bonds
(07:41):
when I was younger and lesswise, I definitely took those
efforts for granted, and now, atthis stage in my life, with
community being a core componentof of who I see like how I'm
becoming into myself, I just canno longer to get for granted,
and I so honor and respect andI'm grateful for the people who
(08:06):
really made an effort to connectwith me early on.
Valerie Friedlander (08:09):
Yeah, yeah, I have found myself in a lot of
spaces where I'm the one whoputs in a lot of the effort, and
I don't mind that, and Irecognize it so much more,
because I don't have as muchcapacity as I used to have. I
have so many other things as aparent and as an activist and
all of these things that I'mdoing to pour into and I
(08:33):
appreciate that idea of who I ambecoming, that constant
evolution and the vulnerabilitythat it takes, which I think is
something that is part of theeffort, at least for me, there's
a certain amount ofvulnerability in reaching out
and putting effort into arelationship, because it means
(08:55):
that what if it's notreciprocated, You know, like,
what if, all the what ifs allthe possibilities, and that ties
us into that idea of attention.
There's a vulnerability inattention that I know a lot of
my clients struggle with, and Ijust want to open the floor to
(09:17):
you to maybe share a little bitabout like, what attracted you
to attention as a concept as afocal point?
Cher Hale (09:30):
Yes, it really began with my daughter, who is now
three and a half, almost fouryears old. And I just kept
reading these pieces fromparents. I mean, the the advice
for so long is like, Oh, they'redoing it for the attention. And
I kept getting this messagelike, oh, well, if she's doing
it for the attention, like,here's how to handle it. And I
(09:51):
kept thinking like, this doesn'tsit right with me. And I think
once I unpack this idea of like,how do I approach my child in a
way that's loving andcompassionate? That when she
wants attention, she gets lovein return. I began to connect it
to other aspects of my work,which is, I think, how most
things happen in our lives,right? Like nothing is
(10:12):
disconnected from the other. SoI began thinking, well, she's
not doing it with attention. AndI see so many entrepreneurs who
are getting flack for wanting togo viral or wanting to be seen
in it in a really big way, orhaving troubles promoting
themselves and like, what's thehold up here? And the more that
(10:32):
I untangled these threads, themore that I was like, well, it's
what the problem is foreverything. It's a it's our
capitalist post colonialistwhite settler mentality in
America, like it's it's all ofour systems, um, infiltrating
our minds and our bodies to stopus from doing what we want and
to being seen for who we are, sothat we stay with the status
(10:55):
quo. And when I connected thatto public relations and how this
is my job, right to ask peoplefor attention. I thought, Oh my
God. Like, there's so much herethat I could talk about to help
people realize that theirrelationship with attention is
being co opted by the system,and that we have agency to take
it back.
Valerie Friedlander (11:16):
That's so big. Because again, like I work
with a lot of people, and mymyself has struggled with that
idea of drawing attention tomyself and I'm an Aries, like,
I'm all like, Hey, you too. Andit's just like, when I read that
idea of like, an Aries is thebaby of Zodiac. So they're like,
Ooh, you know, looking justenamored with fingers and toes.
(11:37):
Because you think babies arelike they see their hand, and
when they see their hand ortheir feet for the first time,
they're just like, wow, soDidn't you see this? It's
amazing. And then we startgetting the story that we
shouldn't want attention. And Ihad never thought about that
connection before, of as kids,oh, they're doing it for the
(12:01):
attention, and somehow that'swrong, like, somehow they don't
deserve attention. Like, yes,you do. And so there's a quote
that you wrote in one of theessays that you shared with me
recently, and it's from is MonaEltahawy. How do you do you know
(12:27):
how you pronounce that?
Cher Hale (12:28):
I think it's going to Mona Eltahawy.
Valerie Friedlander (12:29):
Okay, Mona Eltahawy. And one of the things
she says is "the most subversivething a woman can do is talk
about her life as if it reallymatters, because it does. It is
in the name of that subversion,for the sake of defying the
patriarchy, that we mustdeclare, I deserve attention. I
(12:52):
demand attention, and my life isimportant. My views are
important, and they deserveattention. We must understand
the importance and power ofbeing attention whores.
Cher Hale (13:05):
I feel like I'm hin church.
Valerie Friedlander (13:07):
Yeah,
Cher Hale (13:09):
So beautiful.
Valerie Friedlander (13:11):
You know, that hits in a particular way
for me, I want to cry, and thattells me that there's a wound
there. What does that speak toyou?
Cher Hale (13:20):
Yes, when I first read that quote, which was on
recommendation from Toi Smith, Ihad made this big change in my
messaging. And she was like, bythe way, share, have you read
this? And I said, No. And when Iwas going through the chapter, I
was like, this is everything.
This is everything that I wasintuiting, but didn't have,
maybe the language or thehistory to back it up, or
articulate it. And there's somuch in there that I can see now
(13:43):
attention on a spectrum right,from believing that we have the
power to ask for it at all, toasking for it, to wanting for
it, to asking for and then todemanding it. And for me, that's
like it's you can see theevolution of a consciousness
through that spectrum. And Ilove the idea that we can build
(14:06):
ourselves up with courage andcommunity to reach those levels
for the collective good.
Valerie Friedlander (14:14):
Yeah. Well, that speaks to one of the the
other things that you wrote inthere, which had to do with the
idea of asking for attention,receiving attention, giving
attention and sharing attention.
Would you speak a little bitmore about that dynamic?
Cher Hale (14:40):
Yes, yes, absolutely.
I think that even when we havethe courage to begin to ask for
attention, we might deflectwhatever comes our way as it
comes because we're notcomfortable with being in that
space of reception. So forexample, I really needed help
with child care and. Just neededmaybe two or three extra hours,
maybe every two weeks. And Iasked a friend who's also an
(15:04):
entrepreneur here, if we'd bewilling to switch on and off,
I'd watch her children while sheworks, and then vice versa. And
when the time came to ask forattention, for the for the help
that I needed, and she was like,Yes. I was like, Oh, well,
actually, only an hour is okay.
You know, we don't have to, wedon't have to go that long. I
don't, I don't want to be aburden to you. And there's,
(15:25):
that's the space. I mean, right?
When we ask for the attentionthat we need, for the attention
on our work, for example, I'masking for attention on my work
to be to give, like, the timeand space for it. And she says,
Yes, I'm happy to help. And thenI say, actually, I'm asking for
too much, right? So we can wantthe attention, ask the
attention, but still havetrouble receiving the attention.
And so there's a work to be donethere. And then I think also
(15:48):
there's the idea that this is awe live in a cycle, right? So
we're asking what we're wanting.
We're asking we're receiving,but we also need to give and
share as well. Because what Neoliberal ideology has taught us
over our lifetimes is that weare in an individualistic
(16:08):
pursuit, and look where that hasgotten us, this idea, right,
this mentality. And the truth isthat we are in a collective
pursuit, and when we open up thecycle to include those actions,
then we have so much more spaceto expand and to like, Dream
brighter futures and to see morepossibilities, and that's the
space that I really want toinhabit as a citizen of this
(16:32):
world.
Valerie Friedlander (16:32):
Yeah, it's wild to me, the idea of
individualism, it just itdoesn't really make any sense,
because we are, at such a basiclevel, herd creatures, and I
suppose maybe it's tied to thisidea of we've evolved to be like
individuals or whatever, but ata very basic level, our brain
(16:56):
still Functions primarily withthe the need for belonging, and
with that means that we needeach other. We need each other's
attention and care, and so tothink that we can just be alone,
it's come into this reallydistorted way of being in the
(17:21):
world, because we are cravingattention. This epidemic evolves
right like we're cravingattention and we can't receive
it, or we've been conditioned tonot allow it in, and if we can't
allow it in, then all our focusis going on that lack and we
can't give it because we don'thave the capacity, because we're
not receiving it, because we'renot allowing ourselves to
(17:43):
receive it, and then we feelresentful of giving it. And of
course, like the idea ofsharing, it's right out what I'm
supposed to I'm supposed to,like, step back and let you
nobody's giving to me, like,that whole and that just eats
everything. How can we possiblydevelop and grow and thrive
(18:07):
alone?
Cher Hale (18:09):
I absolutely hear you. This is the question of my
current time, right? I just keepwondering if we're so focused on
trying to get attention in waysthat are not holistic or
healthy, right? And we know whatthese are, right? We live in a
capitalist context. Then, ofcourse, we're distracted from
(18:29):
doing anything about ourpolitical state. Of course,
we're distracted about betteringour own lives, and this is
exactly where they want us,right? And I just, I refuse to,
like, play in to that idea thatI can't have what I want and get
it in a way that doesn't costanything,
Valerie Friedlander (18:50):
Yeah, and doesn't harm anybody.
Cher Hale (18:52):
Yes!
Valerie Friedlander (18:53):
We don't have to harm other people in
order to have our needs met.
Yes, if we actually created astructure that allowed for that.
And it is remarkable to me that,like, as we were talking about
this, I think about, well, whenpeople call me, they want to do
(19:13):
work with me. I ask why, andthey usually tell me that is
what they don't want. Like, Idon't like this, then I want
this to change. So we have toshift. Okay? Well, if this
wasn't true, then what would betrue? Like, what? What is it
that we're looking for? Becauseyou can't create something if
you're only focused on what youdon't want. And so we had, like,
(19:37):
so many people have talked aboutthis where we are right now as a
failure of imagination. Wefailed to imagine a world that
actually honored our humanity,which is collective. Our
humanity isn't individualistic.
It's collective, because that'swhat we're wired from. That.
(19:59):
That's like the kind ofcreatures we are. So we have to
be able to imagine somethingdifferent. We have to be able to
vision something different andand it really seems like that
idea of of being seen. I mean,we've been so conditioned that
it's dangerous to be seen,because, you know, there's a
vulnerability in being seen. SoI need to put on a mask. I need
(20:24):
to put on a facade. And ofcourse, certain identities are
much more at risk in being seen.
And so I think about with the,you know, as a white woman, What
is that look like, in terms ofso money pushes to, like, share
attention, right? Like, I have aplatform. How am I utilizing
that platform, and whether it's,you know, a podcast or a space
(20:46):
that I occupy in my kids schoolor in my community? Like, how do
I uplift other people's voicesso they can have attention? But
how am I doing that in a waythat also recognizes the dangers
in our current system ofallowing for that attention?
(21:08):
Like, how do I place myself as aboth a, I want to say, like a a
shield as well as an amplifier.
Cher Hale (21:24):
Yes, I hear you, yeah, because true for
marginalized identities, peoplewho have been historically under
recognized. There is so muchfear in our bodies from
generations past of when you askfor what you want, there are
consequences to being seen andto trying to wield power, and
(21:46):
that has been definitely 100%ingrained in us. And there is
this, this idea of Angela yDavis, who is the feminist
political activist, talks a lotabout how people like Nelson
Mandela or Martin Luther Kingdid not want to be sanctified,
because the state will sanctifyactivists like this to show you
what happens to them, so thatthey can give us the fear that
(22:10):
we remember throughoutgenerations now. This is what
happens when you try to speakout and be different and be
seen. Yeah, and I think I meanone, it's right, the healing
that we need to do, bothindividually and collectively
for those wounds, to addressthose wounds and to remember
that we are safer in community,right? If we find our
(22:33):
communities where we can shieldeach other, then it's not a one
on one job, right? Then we havethe collective behind us, and
that's what we've I think we'vebeen forgetting when we feel
unsafe, we have to go into thesafe spaces that we've created
that we've cultivated ourselves.
Valerie Friedlander (22:49):
Yeah, well, and, and that reminds me about
just also recognizing that thestories that the dominant
culture tends to tell aboutpeople being that they are
individuals, and obscuring thenumber of people that were part
of a movement, part of what wasbeing said. If we can make it an
(23:13):
individual, then we make it sothat it seems like everybody
else can't do it, that it's notpossible for all of us in our
different places, in ourdifferent roles for movement,
for action, and that importanceof collective action, actually
(23:34):
one of the interviews I just didWith Janique about advocacy,
learning to self advocate. Thatwas one of the things that she
really pulled forward, was theimportance of it's a collective
work, and you can't solvecollective problems as an
individual like it has to becollective solutions. We have to
dream together. And so that issomething that I run into, and
(23:59):
I'm curious about your thinkingaround this. This is one of the
things that I know I run into,is, who am I to who am I to
speak here? Who am I to engagethis? Who am I to demand
attention? And I imagine thereneeds to be a reflective process
(24:23):
of, well, what does that mean?
What does that look like? Am Istepping into a space that's not
mine? What is my role? What ismy place in the communal effort
recognizing that it's not justme, and I think it ties into
what you're talking about, ofsharing attention. And like,
what does it look like to callattention, maybe not to myself,
(24:47):
but to an issue or concern or apurpose? And I'd love to hear
your thoughts along that andlike, what you see when you're
working with people.
Cher Hale (24:59):
Yeah. This all comes down to self belief for me, and
that's from my perspective aslike a multicultural woman who
cannot pass as anything but whatI am, a single mom, right,
raised by a single mom for along time, like I have these
perspectives coming into thisconversation. Just be clear for
the context. For me, it was selfbelief. I didn't think that I
(25:22):
deserved to tell my stories orto ask questions or to share
opinions, not because I didn'thave something to say I always
did internally, but because Ididn't want to rock the boat. I
didn't want to be seen as atroublemaker. I wanted to keep
the status quo in terms of like,what are people to like me? And
(25:46):
I didn't have the belief that Iwould be okay otherwise. So for
me, it's a story ofco-dependence, right? This is a
story of emotional outsourcing,as my client, Victoria Albina,
says, where I just it was somuch more important to me as a
survival strategy, to be likedand to please and to be perfect,
and that kept me from doinganything for a very long time or
(26:07):
saying anything for a very longtime. I'm in a stage now in my
life where I'm I'm having tounlearn the belief that I can't
bring a new perspective orsomething fresh or interesting
to a conversation in the spaceswhere I'm in right or I can make
things up and they can be usefulfor people, or I can use my
(26:28):
imagination for the collectivegood. And that's a massive
unlearning. I'm going throughthat I don't need to be an
expert or a thought leader. Ican be a citizen with opinions.
Valerie Friedlander (26:41):
I love that, and I'm so grateful that
you're sharing because thatthat's one of the things I find
with these conversations, andwhy I like them to be more
conversational than just like aninterview, is because I find so
much value in the conversation,whether it's a one to one to one
conversation or a groupconversation, that is where I
(27:03):
notice the evolution of an idea.
And I think, and I feel thatthere's a danger to being seen
right, that we were just talkingabout that, that idea of, like,
keeping the status quo feelssafe, and we're taught that if
we just do that, then we'll besafe, which is a lie. It doesn't
actually, I mean, it is to acertain extent, like, if you
(27:27):
uphold the systems, the systemwon't necessarily reward you,
but it might not like hurt youas directly as it would somebody
who's like trouble making you'renot going to face retaliation
for speaking up, but it's stillgonna hurt you. It's still gonna
do that like it's not gonna notand it's gonna do it more and
(27:48):
more as it can get away with it.
Cher Hale (27:51):
Yeah, and you know, you remind me, I think, often,
of Japanese internment, howJapanese were living here as
productive citizens, and afterPearl Harbor hit, it didn't
matter what you were saying, orhow good you were, how perfect
or how how contributive you wereto society, you were taken
anyway. The system didn't care.
This is a lesson from historythat we can take into our
(28:13):
future, right? That even if youdo everything right, quote,
unquote, the system will stillharm you. That's what it's
designed to do.
Valerie Friedlander (28:23):
Yes. Yeah, and, and it is a lesson that we
absolutely need to be takingright now, because that is a big
part of what we're going to belooking at, and being able to
stand together and callattention is going to be key in
our different ways of doingthat. I'm wondering, when you
(28:48):
think about your work in thiscontext, and I do, I want to
invite that conversation,particularly because I want
people to know about you andwhat you do and how you can
support because you're you'reactually engaging for people to
say, hey, you deserve to be seenand heard. How do you see your
(29:14):
work in this broader contextnow,
Cher Hale (29:21):
Like in this political atmosphere,
Valerie Friedlander (29:23):
In this...
Well, I mean, I don't think wecan extract ourselves from it,
unfortunately. I mean, I'd love.
Part of me wants to be like, la,la, la,
Cher Hale (29:33):
Totally.
Valerie Friedlander (29:34):
But we, you know that that that's not giving
it the attention it it requires,I want to say, requires, not the
attention it deserves. And thatmay be a distinction too, of
like, how do we think about howwe give attention and where we
give attention? And I'm curious,as somebody who works in
(29:55):
attention, what are you thinkingabout? What. When it comes to
this, and as you work withpeople, and what you'd like to
invite people to think about?
Cher Hale (30:08):
The first thing that comes to mind is, again, like an
Angela Davis inspiredreflection, which is, why do we
feel like we have to be expertson every current event to uphold
the site of justice. And so inour work, people are more and
more voicing right theiropinions or their beliefs on
(30:32):
things like Palestine and thegovernment, and we're being very
vocal. But there are also manyof us who aren't. Many of us are
holding back for fear ofalienating others. I just want
to remind people, you don't haveto be an expert on Palestine, on
the on the 100 year history ofthe Palestine conflict, to know
that genocide is wrong to saythat out loud. So there are
(30:52):
things that I think that's avery important point to start
with, that we can speak up forjustice without having to know
all of the details about whathappened in the conflict, and
then I would say there's a lotof like self reflection that has
to go on. Are there things thatyou want to be promoting that
you're not promoting? If you'renot, why not? When you are in
promotion, where you areengaging in promotion, are you
(31:14):
promoting only your work, or areyou doing the work to promote
others who have less access toprivilege than you do. Is there
a way that you can create asymbiotic relationship, or a
relationship where you upliftinstead of just show up as your
own? Because what happens theway that we heal our
(31:35):
relationships to attention, as Isee it, is that we first have to
remove ourselves from thatindividualistic context and walk
into a collectivist context. Andwhen we do that, the the weight
of promotion is lightened. Wedon't have to feel so heavy or
guilty about it, because we'renot doing it just for ourselves,
(31:56):
right? There's there's more atstake here. Those are my two
main thoughts right now.
Valerie Friedlander (32:01):
Yeah, I appreciate that that's a
powerful thought, because it iswhen helping join together or
develop an understanding likelike you were saying at the very
beginning, the energy ofrelationships, the energy that
has to be put intorelationships, it takes more
conscious energy to engage thesethings when the flow of our
(32:23):
systems is in the otherdirection. So we have to allow
space, to set aside space to dowhat is essentially swimming
upstream, counter cultural, toreally think about, okay, what
is alignment? Where do I connectwith other people? How do I
uplift in the work? How do Iintegrate? How do I collaborate?
(32:47):
And even taking collaborationout of an individualistic
context, because I've run intothat a lot of times, it's like
two people doing a thingtogether, instead of, like,
really, like generatingtogether, co creating, yeah,
like co-creating in a moreexpansive way, not like this
thing, but like in an expansiverelationship, building kind of
(33:09):
way, like I'm building arelationship with someone, with
other people in a broadercontext. What does it look like
to do that? And that's a bigreason, and you probably find
this a lot with people that youinteract with that like have
podcasts and stuff. That's a bigreason why I started a podcast
(33:30):
was to share ideas, but alsolike my own, but also other
people's, because we miss out onso much innovation and so much
creativity when we're onlylistening to ourselves or only
listening to people who looklike us, who have lived
experience like us, there's somuch creativity, so much idea
(33:50):
stifling, that happens andthat's not gonna that's not
gonna change anything.
Cher Hale (33:58):
Yeah, it reminds me very much of the way the
mainstream media takesnarratives and distorts images
and creates stereotypes againstcommunities and foments right
like destruction. And I think alot about how these
(34:19):
conversations where we stillhave access to our agency
through these mediums. They'reso important that we tell full
stories with context, nuance andcontradiction, because we are
allowed right where we'reallowed to be these full humans
within these spaces, in themainstream media outlets that
have been bought in solarcorporations, they just don't
(34:40):
allow for that kind ofstorytelling, and that's so
critical at this deflectionpoint in time, that we allow our
full selves to be seen, and thatwe tell those stories, the
details like our our ourcontradictions, that that make
us who we are as humans.
Valerie Friedlander (34:57):
Yeah, taking that risk and surrounding
ourselves with other people whoare willing to take that risk
with us. The the I think, oflike the school of fish that my
kids have this book swimmingabout this fish who wants to
travel and galvanizes theseother fish to, like create the
(35:19):
shape of a bigger fish so theycan swim free, freely through
the ocean, looking like a biggerfish, so that they're not
attacked anyway. That's just, I,that was the visual that came to
mind. Was the picture in thisbook about the fish. But that's,
that's how I I imagine it. Sothis is a big part of what you
(35:39):
do, helping people find thespaces to be able to share
themselves and what they do andthe amazingness that they have
to bring. Would you please sharewith everybody listening a
little bit more about what youdo and where they can find you?
Cher Hale (35:58):
Yeah, so when I am not trying to stoke revolution,
I am usually being a publicist,and I primarily work with
authors and entrepreneurs whoare from under recognized
communities, so bi, fuck, queer,disabled and neurodiverse. I
allocate most of my clientroster to those populations, and
(36:20):
the remaining 30% people who aresocial advocates or allies of
the causes. Sometimes peoplehave money to resource the
causes. That happens sometimesand I help them either plan
podcast tours or do ongoingbrand awareness as they build
their platforms, usually with abook in mind. People are very
(36:40):
interested in having a book tohang their hat on. And then I
also have a sub stack, which I'mobsessed with. Again, this
conversation, it's called doingit for the attention, and it's
all about how our attention hasbeen weaponized against us, and
how we can reclaim it from thesystem, so for our own
creativity, liberation.
Valerie Friedlander (37:00):
Yeah, I love it. So now, what does it
mean to you to be unlimited?
Cher Hale (37:07):
So much of what's happening now is, how can I
disinvest myself from what I'vebeen taught my whole life about
what's good or right or proper?
How do I know what thoughts aremy own and what I'm buying into?
Because, like, that's what I'vealways done or always been
taught, and I think every strandthat I untangle or break, quite
(37:30):
frankly, the freer I feel, themore unlimited I feel to claim
the space that is mine and touse my voice in the ways that
serve me, the people who arealso for justice and liberation.
Valerie Friedlander (37:46):
I love that. Thank you. And What song
do you listen to when you wantto access that sense of
unlimitedness?
Lately, I've been obsessed withJoy Oladokun.
Cher Hale (37:58):
Oh my god. I love her so much!
Unknown (37:59):
So much. I just saw her in I was like September in
Spokane, and it was just like,she is magic and majesty,
totally so soulful, so muchdepth and so funny. But her new
album just came out, and one ofthe songs on the album is
(38:21):
flowers, and the line in it thatjust gets me for this sentiment,
is, I built a home on themountain you said I couldn't
climb. And there's so much wecould unpack there about what
that means to make a space foryourself where you were allowed.
But that's that's the line,that's the song that gives me
(38:42):
that sense of anything ispossible.
Valerie Friedlander (38:44):
Yeah, I love that and that, yeah. I
mean, like that could be a wholepodcast episode. It's great.
Well, thank you so much, Cherfor coming on and giving us all
this food for thought. Thankyou.
Cher Hale (39:01):
Yes, you're welcome, and thank you for giving me the
space this I'm really, I wouldsay, early in my thinking about
this and how it intersects withour lives as entrepreneurs and
within the system, as citizensand as parents and as friends
and like lovers. And so there'sso much that I still have yet to
learn that I'm very excitedabout. So I hope that you all
will follow along as I as Ifigure it out, and we can
(39:23):
collectively ideate togetherwhat comes next for us.
Valerie Friedlander (39:26):
Yes, yes, everybody, definitely. All the
links are going to be in theshow notes, so please check
those out and follow along. Ithink this is an important
ongoing conversation, as wefigure out imagining a world
where we're actually honoringour humanity and other people's
humanity and all of that. Sothank you for this generative
(39:50):
conversation.
Cher Hale (39:51):
Thank you, Valerie,
Valerie Friedlander (39:52):
Thanks for listening. I so appreciate you
being here. If you got somethingout of today's episode, please
share it. Leave me a review.
Take a screenshot. And post iton social with a shout out to
me. Send it to a friend, or, youknow, all of the above. Want to
hang out more, join me onInstagram, or, better yet, get
on my mailing list to make sureyou don't miss out on anything.
And remember your possibilitiesare as unlimited as you are.
(40:15):
Allow yourself to shine, myfriend, the world needs your
light. See you next time you.
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