July 10, 2024 • 36 mins
Navigating our relationship with death is a profound part of our human experience, yet we often avoid talking about it. This avoidance not only prevents us from asking for and receiving care, it also reduces our capacity to provide care. Additionally, we must be able to embrace our mortality (rather than trying to transcend it) in order to fully embrace living this one precious life. Death doulas are a valuable resource for those looking for support around the emotional, practical, and spiritual dynamics of death.
In this episode of Unlimited, I invited Nikki Smith (she/her) to join me in a conversation around navigating our relationship with death.
Some of what we talk about in this episode includes:
- What is a death doula
- Allowing space for grieving, whatever that looks like for you
- Engaging our fear of death to fully embrace life
- How to find care as you navigate death and grief
LINKS FROM THIS EPISODE:
Good Grief with Nikki the Death Doula - Understanding Hospice
For those in Chicago, IL looking for estate planning, check out Emily Rozwadowski Law (reference this podcast for 10% off estate planning documents)
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Valerie Friedlander (00:00):
Hello, my friends, and welcome to another
(00:02):
episode of unlimited today. Weare talking about navigating our
relationship with death. Andwhile I was scheduling out my
episodes, I was like, when is agood time to put this episode?
And I realized there is no goodtime. There's also no bad time,
because death is ever present.
It is an intrinsic part of ourhuman experience, of our
(00:25):
humanity, and it is importantfor us to explore this profound
and challenging aspect of lifethat we so often won't talk
about it, is only by engagingthis topic, by talking about it,
by becoming open to it as animportant part of our journey,
(00:49):
that we open the door toreceiving care around it and to
being able to provide carearound it, when we shut that
door and when we refuse to lookat it, when we avoid it, we
isolate ourselves. And so oftenpeople talk about grief being
(01:10):
extremely isolating, and we'resocial creatures. We need each
other. The other thing thatcomes to mind is just this
binary that we often set up ofthe idea that like birth, the
beginning of life is this joyfulexperience, and death, the end
of life is this sorrowfulexperience. And the fact of the
(01:34):
matter is that we are not thatbinary. Both ends hold the
multitude of our emotional self,which whether we have access to
that full range of emotion, is aquestion. We often shut down
access to that or have that shutdown as we navigate this world.
(01:55):
But it exists. It's all there.
And I believe that it'simportant to embrace that
fullness, just like we want toembrace that fullness throughout
life, through all of it, notjust constantly chase things,
but to be present and to embracethat whole experience. So to do
(02:20):
that, to engage thisconversation, to open that door
and invite us all to walkthrough and connect with the
care we deserve around thisaspect of life. I invited Nikki
Smith, who is a compassionateand experienced death doula and
grief coach. She helpsindividuals and their families
(02:42):
navigate the complex, emotional,practical and spiritual aspects
of the end of life journey. Sheserves the terminally ill,
dying, elderly and their lovedones with dignity and respect.
Her goal is to help peopleembrace the end of life and
share open and honestcommunication with their loved
ones. She can take the burdenand hold space so you can focus
(03:06):
on what matters most in yourfinal days and leave this world
at peace when she's not dueling,she's usually found hiding in
the trees somewhere. Together,we explore the essential role of
a death doula, the importance ofhaving space for grief, engaging
our fear of death, and how tofind care through the end of
(03:28):
life experience, whether you arefacing the loss of a loved one,
supporting someone who isdealing with the loss of a loved
one, contemplating your ownmortality, or is simply Curious
about the work of a death doula,I know you are going to find
this conversation invaluable. Sowithout further ado, let's get
(03:48):
started. Hey there. I'm ValerieFriedlander, Certified Life
business alignment coach, andthis is unlimited. This podcast
bridges the individual and thesocietal, scientific and
spiritual, positive andnegative, nerdy and no, there's
just a lot of nerdy. Come onboard, and let's unlock a light
(04:09):
that's as badass as you are.
Unknown (04:18):
Welcome, Nikki, I'm so excited to have you on the
podcast.
Nikki Smith (04:22):
Thank you. I'm excited to be here.
Valerie Friedlander (04:24):
Honestly, I don't know that I had heard of a
death doula until I met you.
Definitely heard of a birthdoula. But before we get into
that, I want to start with aquestion that I ask each guest
this season, which is, what is alimit you took for granted that
you have since unlearned,
Nikki Smith (04:43):
Oh, um, just pick one.
Valerie Friedlander (04:47):
I know, right?
Nikki Smith (04:48):
Yeah, I've learned a lot of well, I've had a lot of
limits that I've sinceunlearned, but the biggest one
in my most recent experience isthat you don't have to follow
that formula that ever.
Everybody at my age has been fedtheir entire life. Of you go to
high school, you go to college,you get a career, you retire,
you die. You don't have to gothat route. You don't have to go
to college if you don't want to.
(05:10):
You don't have to get a quote,unquote career in a corporate
job if you don't want to. Thatwas drilled into my head for so
long, and I full out believed ituntil about five years ago, when
I started realizing I don't haveto do this.
Valerie Friedlander (05:22):
What made that shift for you?
Nikki Smith (05:25):
Honestly, Covid helped a lot. I hate to say,
that Covid helped, but you knowwhat I mean
Valerie Friedlander (05:30):
I do,
Nikki Smith (05:31):
The pandemic kind of helped push that like I I
was, I'm obsessed with peoplethat live nomadic lifestyles.
That is an a goal for me oneday, is to live life, you know,
on the road, be it, you know,van, RV, whatever, even just
couch to couch, I don't care,and that's always fascinated me.
So I love learning about those,those people and what they do
(05:52):
and their lifestyles like. Andit never occurred to me that
something like that would bepossible, because growing up in,
you know, middle class, middleAmerica. It's like the people
that do that are looked downupon. Like, no, these people are
really cool. And as thingsstarted becoming more and more
remote, like, I started workingremote for my full time day job
(06:13):
I used to have at home. And Iwas like, I can do this
anywhere, because we would go onvacation, and I would still be
able to log in and work part ofthe day. So, yeah.
Valerie Friedlander (06:24):
Yeah. Well, and it's, it's something that I
think about as living reallyfully. Like, what is it like?
What does it mean to like, fullylive your life? And I was also
one of those people who like,fit the prescription of you go
to school, you get good grades,you graduate, you get married,
you get a job, you climb thecorporate ladder, you buy a
(06:47):
house in the suburbs, you havetwo children, and then
Nikki Smith (06:53):
Question mark?
Valerie Friedlander (06:54):
yeah?
eventually you get to retire,maybe, if you're lucky.. and
Nikki Smith (07:01):
Yeah. Well, and I broke that pretty quick, just
out of the fact that I didn'treally have any desire to get
married for a long time, and Inever really wanted kids, so
that part of the equation wasnever, never registered in my
brain, but it was still justpushed upon like, well, you
still have to have a job, acareer. And,
Valerie Friedlander (07:19):
Yeah, well, and it's something that, of
course, has come much more hometo me. And one of the reasons
why, when I learned about youand what you do, I was like, we
definitely need to talk aboutthis, because I had never heard
of a death doula, like I said,I've heard of a birth doula. I
had support from one in givingbirth. I used midwives, but, you
(07:41):
know, we got training from abirth doula, and really got an
understanding of what I couldask for, what I wanted in that
process, and how to create thatspace for myself and have others
who can support me creating thatspace. So I was like, Oh, I had
(08:02):
never thought about that beingapplied to end of life. And here
I am at, you know, relativelyyoung age of 42 and I've lost a
number of people relativelyrecently, friends, friends,
spouses. It it's been and itwas, I guess I was like, Oh, I
(08:26):
didn't realize I was at that ageyet, because I always thought,
you know, later, because this isthe order that you do things in
that or like, sudden loss. I'vemy my cousin died in a bike
accident and and that has beenreally hard. I've been blessed
to not have a lot of loss in mylife. And so seeing this and
(08:48):
starting to think aboutmortality a lot more, also with
the situation of the world andeverything that's going on, you
know, there's just a lot morethinking about it. And so I was
like, I would love to know andhave you share with the people
who are listening, what is itthat you do? How? Yeah, I'm
gonna leave it at that.
Unknown (09:09):
Yeah. Well, and thank you for bringing up the birth
doula, because most people haveheard of a birth doula. I've
only encountered a handful ofpeople who have not ever heard
of a birth doula. So once I askthem if they understand what
birth doulas do, they say, andthey say, Yes, I'm like, then
you know what I do? So much likeyou were saying you received
support ahead of time as how youwant your birthing process to
(09:30):
go. I do very much the samething for people who are facing
end of life and this, I mean,this can be anybody who has a
terminal diagnosis, somebody whois still receiving treatment, or
even just somebody who might be,you know, in their mid to late
70s, and they know, you know, itcould be coming now, or it could
be 20 years from now, but theywant to be ready. I work with
people my age, sometimes justgetting their advanced directive
(09:52):
paperwork together to make surethey have everything taken care
of that they need to but yeah,just like you said, I help
people come up with most of myclients have. Terminal
diagnosis, and I will help themcome up with their plan for how
they would like for their finaldays, weeks, months to go, and
that can look like, you know,they would, most people want to
be at home. How can we set upyour home? Is that feasible? Is
(10:13):
hospice ready? You know, shouldwe sign up for hospice and
explaining to them, the family,how hospice works and what they
do and what they don't do do weneed extra care? Where can we
find that I so I do a little bitof the social work stuff to just
help them get those taken careof. But then you know, what are
your spiritual beliefs? Do youhave a certain ritual? Do you
have certain people that youneed around you? Do you have
(10:35):
certain items that you needpresent in your final breaths?
And so once they are no longerable to speak for themselves, I
can speak for them to make surethat their wishes are honored.
Valerie Friedlander (10:44):
Are there legal aspects that go into that?
Because, like, I know advanceddirectives and power of
attorney, and like all of that,I've a friend who's a state
attorney, and so, like I I knowthat when I was birthing, I
could have said I want my Doulapresent, and then they would
have a say, and if I was notable to communicate, well, that
(11:06):
they would do that for me. Whatdoes that look like?
Nikki Smith (11:10):
So, now, in a situation like that, I don't
know if the birthing doula coulddo that, unless you made them
your healthcare power ofattorney, and this is to make,
you know, life decisions as faras if, let's say you are, you
have terminal illness, you haveALS and you have a stroke and
you're now in the hospital, youmight not necessarily been on
(11:30):
hospice, yet you might not be inyour last final months, but now
you've had this massive strokeand you are brain dead, or
you're just no longerresponsive. Who is going to make
that decision as far as lifesustaining like, Do you want a
feeding tube? Do you want to beon artificial breathing
machines? And do you not wantthat? And the power of attorney
(11:51):
is the person that will makethat decision for you, and it is
a legal document. You don't needan attorney to complete one. You
can find those whatever stateyou're in, I encourage you to
just Google healthcare power ofattorney my state, and you'll
find that form most of the time.
All you need is a notary tonotarize that document,
sometimes even just twowitnesses. Then those do need to
be honored. And financial powerof attorney is the same, only
(12:13):
that's like somebody that canmanage your finances if you are
no longer able to do so.
Valerie Friedlander (12:19):
I'm curious that because you, I'm sure you
get a lot of questions and a lotof things that you're like,
they're things that people don'tknow, because this is considered
a taboo subject. Absolutelynobody wants to talk about it,
even when you're talking tolike, parents who are aging. You
know, my age of having thoseconversations with my parents as
they age, and like, what areyour plans so that I know I'm
(12:40):
the eldest daughter, what aresome of those things that you're
like? People really should knowthis.
Unknown (12:45):
Yeah, yeah. I remember.
I can very vividly remember Iwas young, like, maybe eight,
910, years old, and I the thethought just popped into my head
one day, and I asked my mom. Iwas like, what will happen to
Grandma's house when she dies?
Because she lived there alone,her husband had died a long time
prior. My grandfather died wellbefore I was born, and my mom
(13:05):
looked at me aghast and justsaid, That's don't she just
seemed horrified that I evenasked that question. I didn't
know any better at the time. Butthese are valid questions, and
we can't be afraid of those. Youknow, I would hope if somebody
were to ask you what wouldhappen to your home if you pass
away, you would have an answerright away. If you don't that
might I'm hoping that would alsomake that trigger in your brain
(13:27):
to say, I need to figure thisout so I know what will happen
with my home when I die. Thebank would probably just take
mine. But, you know, I still oweon it. But you're right. We are
way too scared to talk aboutthese things. And me being a
death doula, I talk about deathand dying all day long, so it
doesn't faze me. I also respectthat it's it's a scary subject
(13:48):
for a lot of people. But if I,if nothing else, if I can
encourage people to know thattalking about it doesn't make it
happen. I promise you, bringingup death doesn't make somebody
die. It's not how that works.
Valerie Friedlander (14:00):
Thank you for saying that. I almost feel
like that's probably the mostimportant thing that people
don't know yet, that they needto know. There's so much,
especially in the wellnessspace, there's so much layer of
manifestation, like speak itinto the existence. And so I
think in a lot of ways, that wayof talking about things kind of
(14:21):
reinforces this idea that youshould, don't talk about the
quote, unquote negative things,because if you say them right,
then they'll be there. Exceptthat oftentimes that means that
we're, like, not talking aboutthings that actually are there
you need to talk about,
Nikki Smith (14:37):
Yeah, well, and grief is the same way we don't
talk about grieving and grief,and I'm a I do grief coaching as
well, and I also work withfamilies after their person has
passed away, to help themprocess their grief and get
through that initial hump. Andwe're not taught as a society or
as a culture how to grieve, andit's going to be different for
(14:58):
everybody. So there's nohandbook. There are. Handbooks,
don't get me wrong, but they'reall, you know, everybody's going
to be different. Some people aregoing to, like, ball their eyes
out and scream and cry. Somepeople are going to hold it in.
Some people are going to expressit through their art medium.
Like, there's a million ways togrieve, but we're not taught
that it's even okay or to talkabout it, and so we just sit
(15:19):
alone with our grief, wondering,Am I doing it right? You know?
Valerie Friedlander (15:24):
Yeah, you know, that really stands out to
me, especially because I am aparent, and a lot of the people
that I've lost recently hadyoung children, and I wonder, as
a death doula, supportingpeople. What do you see with
(15:45):
that, like, how? How do peopleapproach that? Um, both in the
process of losing someone, butalso in the aftermath of that
loss.
Nikki Smith (15:58):
Approaching grief?
You mean?
Valerie Friedlander (15:59):
Yeah, well, yeah, grief. I mean, especially
just as a parent. I mean, I'msure you've worked with people
who have kids that they'rethinking of and preparing to not
be there for, and then also aspouse who then has to hold the
family while grieving at thesame time, holding space and
(16:20):
grieving at the same time. Justis a lot.
Unknown (16:23):
Yeah, it is a lot. And I do see a lot of people in that
situation. And I was in thatposition myself. My only brother
passed away unexpectedly almost10 years ago, and I specifically
remember and I talked about thiswith somebody else after his
death, my my reaction to thiswas, I don't have a space, or I
(16:44):
don't need a space to grieve,because I'm just the sister like
my parents lost their son. Theylost their only son, their
oldest child, and he had twoyoung children, and they there
are these two under 18,beautiful children that lost
their dad. So there's no spacefor me to grieve this, because I
need to help take care of them,and I need to help take care of
(17:04):
my parents and make sureeverybody's okay that I never
even thought about grievingmyself and that it, it came back
to bite me real hard. It took afew years, but it hit me that i
i Never processed that thatloss, and so it is a tricky
space. So I always encouragepeople to take a ask for help.
Okay, if you need it, ask forhelp. There is no shame in that.
(17:27):
And if you're not comfortabletalking to friends or family,
find a therapist, find a griefcoach, find a life coach, find
somebody, an objective thirdparty, that you can just vent to
and have that space to processyour grief, to talk about it, to
you know, get through whateveryou need to get through so that
(17:47):
you can be available. Because ifyou don't deal with your it's
like the oxygen mask in theairplane. If you don't put it on
yourself first, you can't helpthe person next to you. So you
have to take care of yourself ifyou want to take care of other
people. 100%
Valerie Friedlander (18:00):
Yeah. So what does it look like when
you're helping people with that,like, how, what is there a
process? I mean, I know we'rejust talking about, like,
there's no, like, one size fitsall process when it comes to
grief, even though, like, fivestages of grief. Well, we know
that those are all over theplace. They're not just five,
and they definitely don't gointo order, and they show up
(18:22):
even when you thought that theywere not there anymore, and all
of that.
Nikki Smith (18:26):
It's not a to do list. You don't check them off.
Valerie Friedlander (18:29):
It's not into it's not a to do list. Even
if you want it to be a to dolist, there's definitely been
some, some griefs that I'vewalked through. I'm like, Okay,
could we just check that one nowand maybe it can be done.
Nikki Smith (18:41):
Yeah.
Valerie Friedlander (18:42):
and it's not how it works at all,
Nikki Smith (18:43):
Yeah. And some people never get to acceptance.
Some people just never, neverget to that acceptance level.
And that's that's okay, youknow, it's gonna look different
for those people. But as far aslike a process, the biggest and
most important thing I can do isjust giving them a space to talk
about it. Because, like I said,especially those who have other
(19:05):
family members who have sufferedthe same loss, or that, you
know, lost the same person orthing, or whatever it might be,
it's hard for them to talk aboutthat with each other, and it's
hard for them to deal with theirown when they're trying to deal
with everybody else's grief aswell and keep maybe keeping the
house together, keeping a job.
So if nothing else, giving theman hour or two a week to just
talk it out is invaluable. Youknow, you you understand that
(19:28):
too.
Valerie Friedlander (19:30):
Yeah.
Nikki Smith (19:31):
Like just giving people that space, but I help
people understand where they're,you know, where they're not
facing it, and help them withgrounding techniques to get
through their day to day andother coping mechanisms they can
for one, if they're not with meand they're with, you know, at
their job or with their kids orwherever, and it hits and it
hits hard, what can we do inthat moment to, you know,
(19:52):
recenter yourself so that youcan get to yourself to a safe
space?
Valerie Friedlander (19:55):
Yeah, yeah.
That makes a lot of sense. Andyou have a podcast. And I was
listening to it, and I love howyou approach things with a lot
of care, and also you talk abouthumor. And so, you know, when we
talk about grief, I thinkoftentimes we forget that we
have a full range of emotionswhen we are talking about stuff,
(20:17):
especially if it's close tosomebody, we do need somebody
else to talk to that's not sodirectly impacted by it, because
to be able to be irreverentabout something, yeah, that is
going to have such an impact onsomebody else's life. Or to, you
know, have humor about it, or toreally talk about logistics of
(20:37):
it, or any of those things it'sit's hard to do when it's
someone who's impacted. So Iappreciate that you engage that
full range of experience,because we're still human, even
in all layers of theseprocesses.
Unknown (20:55):
Yeah, absolutely. And there's going to be days where
you are going to need to beangry, you're going to need to
scream. You might, you know,punch a pillow or do something
constructive with your anger. Gofor, I usually go for a run or
an aggressive bike ride if Ihave to, if I'm in that anger
space to help work that energyout. Or, you know, you might be
(21:15):
in a space that day where youjust need to cry and be alone,
or cut out everything altogetherand just Doom scroll on your
social media. We poo, poo doingthat. But sometimes you need
that to distract yourself.
That's gonna work. I scrollTiktok sometimes for like, two
hours when I'm upset.
Valerie Friedlander (21:31):
Oh yeah,
Nikki Smith (21:32):
You know? And sometimes you need to laugh at
it, like we absolutely hadmoments of laughter after my
brother passed away. I tell thestory a lot. So if you've if
anybody's listening to mypodcast, they've heard it a
million times. But we had mybrother cremated, and we have a
plot, a family plot, where wewere putting his ashes, and this
was a year after he had died,and we were driving to the
(21:54):
cemetery, my parents were thefront seat, and I was in the
back seat with the urn, and Ikept joking. I was like, "Mom!
Scott's on my side of the car!"like we did when we were kids.
My mom, bless her heart, turnedaround, said, "We will turn this
car around and go home!" So shecould have been upset at me,
because it was such a it wassuch a down day, because we had
all spent a year and we werestarting to come out of our
(22:15):
grief, and now we had thisagain, and it was just such a
somber thing, and I couldn'ttake it anymore?
Valerie Friedlander (22:21):
Yeah, so I'm curious how you got into
this work.
Nikki Smith (22:26):
Yeah. I had heard about death doulas quite a while
back, probably eight or nineyears ago on a YouTube video.
And I was like, what a flippingcool thing that is. And I
started, like, trying to findsome information on there just
wasn't much at that time becauseit's such a relatively new
profession. It's not a newprofession. It's new as death
doula as we know it. Right now,people have been doing what we
(22:49):
do for ever, but as an actuallike, scope of work as a death
doula is relatively new, and Icouldn't find a ton of
information on it, but I justkept like, I hear little bits
and find random articles. And Ijust kept thinking it was such a
such a cool thing, and I startedvolunteering at a hospice, and I
just, I just felt so natural. Itfelt like home to me to be doing
(23:12):
this. And then covid, like Imentioned before, kind of shook
up everything with me, and Irealized I just was not happy
with where I was in my life, andI needed to do something
meaningful that gave back to theworld in some way, shape or
form, because I felt like I'djust been stuck in this
corporate life of, you know,money and greed and everything
(23:32):
else. I'm like, I don't likethis. I don't want to do this
anymore. I want to live a lifethat gives back and is more, you
know, impactful in some way,shape or form, and this death
doula thing kept coming up tome. So I was working with a life
coach at the time too, and shefinally said, so why don't you
just do it? It never occurred tome I could just do it. So I
found a training and did thewent through the training
(23:55):
course, and here I am.
Valerie Friedlander (23:58):
I appreciate that a lot, and and
the work that you do, because ifwe can't embrace our mortality,
then we're disconnecting from acore part of our humanity, yeah?
And I think in a lot of spaces,like corporate spaces, and it's
all future focused, but it's nottoo future focused, yeah, right.
(24:19):
Like, if I just earn enoughmoney, and then I have all this
stuff, and then I will get toretire and do the fun things.
And I think a lot of thatthinking is breaking down as
we're watching how it's notworking.
Nikki Smith (24:32):
Yeah, yeah, retirement is not really a thing
anymore.
Valerie Friedlander (24:35):
Right.
Nikki Smith (24:36):
Well, and how many stores have you heard about the
guy who worked his entire lifeto retirement in two weeks after
retired, died of a heart attack.
Valerie Friedlander (24:42):
Right.
Well, we're starting torecognize the stress impact on
our bodies, yeah, and all theways that we are living in the
world that are breaking us down,literally. So,
Nikki Smith (24:54):
yeah,
Valerie Friedlander (24:54):
that is a real thing. And so to be able
to, you know, to just like,well, I'm only going to think
this far, but I'm not. Going tothink that far and recognizing
that as part of mortality, thatis part of humanity. Yeah,
there's a lot of fear there. Ithink to go that far to think
that far, because we are losingcorporeal existence. We're
(25:17):
losing the space that we know,that we're familiar with, yeah,
and what do you find comes upfor people when they start
thinking about that?
Unknown (25:32):
I think most people are scared when you talk about death
or dying and again, this iswhere our aversion to it comes.
We don't want to think about itbecause we're scared, because we
don't it's it's this thingthat's there, that's this big
event that kind of you know, forall we know, ends it forever for
(25:53):
us. And we don't know when it'scoming. None of us know even I
mean, you might have adiagnosis. They might say you
have XYZ time, but you stilljust, most of us, at any given
point, have no idea when we'regoing to die, and that's scary,
because you know you have thingsyou want to do, you're living
your life, you're you'reexcited, and you have plans, and
(26:14):
to know that at any moment thatcould be gone. It's It's
terrifying for people, and Ithink that's the point most
people are at, is they don'tunders. You know, we don't know
what's going to happen. We don'tknow how it's going to go. We
just know that one day we'regoing to die and this will all
be over. And I always encouragepeople, it's it's okay to be
scared of that. I am too, ofcourse, I am. I've got a million
(26:35):
plans I'd like to do before theend of my life, but I don't
know. I could get hit by a bustomorrow. But, you know, use
that to embrace today. You know,I'm not saying you have to Yolo
every single day of your life,because that's just not
feasible. But, like, I took ahuge risk leaving a corporate
job to open up my own businessas a death doula, like, you
(26:56):
know, but I also recognize,like, I could die any day, and I
don't want to die knowing Ididn't pursue this. So if, if
you're trying to make thatdecision, make it. Just do it.
Life is too short.
Valerie Friedlander (27:10):
Yeah, there's a line at the end of the
Red Hot Chili Peppers song,"Can't Stop" that I've always
appreciated, and it's "this lifeis more than just a read
through." And it just reminds methat this isn't a dress
rehearsal. We don't get anotherone, at least that we're
(27:34):
conscious of. Most of us, Isuppose, not to project any
belief systems on anybody sobut, you know, there's is the
reason why I coach the way Icoach is very much about like,
what are we bringing into ournow space? Not like, what do you
(27:54):
imagine you'll experience in thefuture, and what does it look
like to bring that into our nowspace? Because our means create
our ends,
Nikki Smith (28:04):
yeah,
Valerie Friedlander (28:05):
in life, and that way you know that
you're like, you're living fullyand not just waiting for
something else to happen.
Because when we live like that,we're always chasing something
anyway. So it's like, you'renever actually gonna have it.
You're just gonna chase it.
Nikki Smith (28:19):
Yeah?
Valerie Friedlander (28:21):
So I know that for the work that I do,
it's very personal as well, andthere's just a lot of different
ways of approaching things. Andfor people who don't necessarily
know I you have an episode onyour podcast, they're talking
about hospice and breaking downmyths around hospice.
Nikki Smith (28:41):
Oh, yeah.
Valerie Friedlander (28:41):
And like, helping people engage hospice?
Nikki Smith (28:43):
Yeah,
Valerie Friedlander (28:44):
and it brought to mind as I was
listening to it, and I'll haveit linked in the show notes for
people who want to go check thatout. But what would you like
people to know about findingcare? Like, and I think about
like, what are the things tolook for when they're looking
for support around death,whether it's their own or a
(29:06):
loved ones. What are things thatpeople should look for? What are
like red flags? Because thereare certainly practitioners out
there who are not necessarily inalignment with the people who
are searching. So what shouldpeople be looking for, both in
the ways that are helpful, inthe ways that are maybe not?
Nikki Smith (29:28):
Yeah. Well, first thing I would say is, like,
especially if it comes tohospice, you're allowed to shop
around, and you're also allowedto fire your hospice. If you
start on the team and it's notworking and you don't like them,
you can end that there's there'sno like, sorry, you're in it
until the end, you can find adifferent hospice, but shop
(29:50):
around. Don't be afraid to callseveral have them come to your
house. Chat with them. Most ofthem will come to the house for
screening anyway, to go overeligibility requirements. But.
And same with home like, ifyou're getting home health care,
shop around and you can firethem at any point too. Do your
research. If you're going tohave strangers coming in and out
of your house, you know, makesure you're with a reputable
(30:13):
organization that has anylicenses they might need,
especially when it comes tonurses and nursing staff. Do
they require licenses? Make surethey have all that so, yeah,
don't be afraid to research.
Valerie Friedlander (30:24):
And what about hiring someone like you
Unknown (30:28):
Now death doulas, depending on where you are
within the country, like there'smaybe a dozen of us in the
entire state of Ohio. I'm inColumbus, Ohio. If you go to New
York or Oregon, you're going tohave, you know, a lot to choose
from. So same thing. Feel freeto shop around. But any one of
us that I've ever spoken with,we'll do a couple introductory
(30:51):
sessions. We'll meet with you,we'll chat with you to kind of
make sure that we're all on thesame page and you vibe well with
that person, like a birth doula,right? I've, I've never been
through the birthing process,but I would imagine that's such
an intimate thing that I wouldwant somebody I trust and that I
really get along with to bepresent for that. And same with
(31:12):
dying. Dying is a very intimateexperience, and if somebody's
going to be right there with youthe whole time, holding your
hand and walking you through it,you want to make sure it's
somebody you get along with andthat you trust.
Valerie Friedlander (31:25):
Is this something that you work with
people virtually, or is it allin person?
Unknown (31:29):
doula work. I will do a lot of my initial meetings via
zoom or over the phone until weall are comfortable with each
other, and then it'll reallykind of depend on the
circumstance where they are, butI will be with them at some
(31:51):
point. I can do full virtualbut, you know, obviously, when
it comes to the person beingactively dying, it's preferable
for me to be physically presentso I can make sure things are
going the way they want it to.
Valerie Friedlander (32:03):
Yeah, that makes sense. If there's a last
thing that you would want peopleto know about the work that you
do. I mean, obviously we want toencourage people to go listen to
your podcast where they can getall the information. But is
there something that you youwould like the people listening
to take away.
Nikki Smith (32:24):
Yeah, we are a lot of people kind of misunderstand
what we do. And yes, we arethere to hold your hand
physically as you pass away. Butthere's so much more we can do.
And we work with people after asudden loss. We work with people
who are not even actively dyingyet or nowhere near their death,
store, anything around end oflife, work we can help with,
(32:47):
even if you meet with us justone time to help understand your
your Advanced Directive,paperwork, what you need, what
you don't need. You know, Icould talk all day long about
all the different services wecould provide. So yeah, don't be
afraid to reach out. Like, ifyou just have questions, anybody
who's in this line of work,we're doing it because we want
to, right? I can tell you, we'renot in it for the money, but you
(33:08):
can... don't be afraid to reachout to us and we'll answer your
questions. We're happy to talkabout what we do
Valerie Friedlander (33:14):
That's so important. Because, I mean, I do
see this also within the withpeople using birth dualism,
like, I just don't want to dealwith finding somebody else. And
like, I don't want to bedifficult. And like all the
people pleaser like, I this is,this is your life, this is your
death. Like, you get to bedifficult. You're allowed,
(33:35):
Yeah, and let us do that. Thereare so many people I've worked
with that want are in that spacewhere they're ready to stop
treatment, but they're scared tobecause their family doesn't
want them to. Their family wantsthem to keep fighting. And
they're, they're ready, they'redone, you know, they're they're
past the fighting stage. Theyjust want to end peacefully. And
they're scared to upset the theapple cart, so to speak. So I'm
(33:58):
like, let me come in and havethat help navigate that
conversation with your family.
You know, I'll do it a gentleway, but let me help that
conversation happen.
Yeah. Oh, well, I reallyappreciate the work that you do.
Where can people find you?
Unknown (34:13):
I am on the interwebs.
My website is nikkitheula.comand it's spelled n, i, k, k, i.
I'm also on Facebook, Instagramand Tiktok, all at Nikki the
death doula, awesome.
Valerie Friedlander (34:25):
Well, I will have links in the show
notes. I like to wrap up with acouple questions,
Nikki Smith (34:31):
Sure.
Valerie Friedlander (34:31):
First one is, what does it mean to you to
be unlimited?
Nikki Smith (34:35):
To be unlimited?
Oh, that's a very good question.
I think that means keeping yourmind as open as possible to any
and all experiences.
Valerie Friedlander (34:48):
Yeah, and when you want to welcome in that
unlimited feeling, what song doyou listen to?
Nikki Smith (34:57):
Oh, there is...
ehhh. I listen to really weird,obscure music, but there's an
artist from the UK called AphexTwin does techno music. And
there's one particular song,it's called "On" O N and there's
no lyrics or anything. But thatsong always just makes me feel
so like open and calm andvibrant all at once. I love that
(35:18):
song.
Valerie Friedlander (35:20):
Cool. Well, I will add that to the unlimited
podcast playlist so everybodycan go check it out.
Nikki Smith (35:28):
Yay.
Valerie Friedlander (35:29):
And thank you so much Nikki for joining me
today and sharing about what youdo. Really appreciate you.
Nikki Smith (35:35):
Thank you. Thank you for having me and giving me
a space to talk about what I do,because I love talking about
what I do.
Valerie Friedlander (35:40):
Yay! Thanks for listening. I so appreciate
you being here. If you gotsomething out of today's
episode, please share it, leaveme a review, take a screenshot
and post it on social with ashout out to me. Send it to a
friend or, you know, all of theabove. Want to hang out more,
join me on Instagram, or betteryet, get on my mailing list to
(36:01):
make sure you don't miss out onanything, and remember your
possibilities are as unlimitedas you are. Allow yourself to
shine, my friend, the worldneeds your light. See you next
time you.
Hello, my friends, and welcome to another
(00:02):
episode of unlimited today. Weare talking about navigating our
relationship with death. Andwhile I was scheduling out my
episodes, I was like, when is agood time to put this episode?
And I realized there is no goodtime. There's also no bad time,
because death is ever present.
It is an intrinsic part of ourhuman experience, of our
(00:25):
humanity, and it is importantfor us to explore this profound
and challenging aspect of lifethat we so often won't talk
about it, is only by engagingthis topic, by talking about it,
by becoming open to it as animportant part of our journey,
(00:49):
that we open the door toreceiving care around it and to
being able to provide carearound it, when we shut that
door and when we refuse to lookat it, when we avoid it, we
isolate ourselves. And so oftenpeople talk about grief being
(01:10):
extremely isolating, and we'resocial creatures. We need each
other. The other thing thatcomes to mind is just this
binary that we often set up ofthe idea that like birth, the
beginning of life is this joyfulexperience, and death, the end
of life is this sorrowfulexperience. And the fact of the
(01:34):
matter is that we are not thatbinary. Both ends hold the
multitude of our emotional self,which whether we have access to
that full range of emotion, is aquestion. We often shut down
access to that or have that shutdown as we navigate this world.
(01:55):
But it exists. It's all there.
And I believe that it'simportant to embrace that
fullness, just like we want toembrace that fullness throughout
life, through all of it, notjust constantly chase things,
but to be present and to embracethat whole experience. So to do
(02:20):
that, to engage thisconversation, to open that door
and invite us all to walkthrough and connect with the
care we deserve around thisaspect of life. I invited Nikki
Smith, who is a compassionateand experienced death doula and
grief coach. She helpsindividuals and their families
(02:42):
navigate the complex, emotional,practical and spiritual aspects
of the end of life journey. Sheserves the terminally ill,
dying, elderly and their lovedones with dignity and respect.
Her goal is to help peopleembrace the end of life and
share open and honestcommunication with their loved
ones. She can take the burdenand hold space so you can focus
(03:06):
on what matters most in yourfinal days and leave this world
at peace when she's not dueling,she's usually found hiding in
the trees somewhere. Together,we explore the essential role of
a death doula, the importance ofhaving space for grief, engaging
our fear of death, and how tofind care through the end of
(03:28):
life experience, whether you arefacing the loss of a loved one,
supporting someone who isdealing with the loss of a loved
one, contemplating your ownmortality, or is simply Curious
about the work of a death doula,I know you are going to find
this conversation invaluable. Sowithout further ado, let's get
(03:48):
started. Hey there. I'm ValerieFriedlander, Certified Life
business alignment coach, andthis is unlimited. This podcast
bridges the individual and thesocietal, scientific and
spiritual, positive andnegative, nerdy and no, there's
just a lot of nerdy. Come onboard, and let's unlock a light
(04:09):
that's as badass as you are.
Unknown (04:18):
Welcome, Nikki, I'm so excited to have you on the
podcast.
Nikki Smith (04:22):
Thank you. I'm excited to be here.
Valerie Friedlander (04:24):
Honestly, I don't know that I had heard of a
death doula until I met you.
Definitely heard of a birthdoula. But before we get into
that, I want to start with aquestion that I ask each guest
this season, which is, what is alimit you took for granted that
you have since unlearned,
Nikki Smith (04:43):
Oh, um, just pick one.
Valerie Friedlander (04:47):
I know, right?
Nikki Smith (04:48):
Yeah, I've learned a lot of well, I've had a lot of
limits that I've sinceunlearned, but the biggest one
in my most recent experience isthat you don't have to follow
that formula that ever.
Everybody at my age has been fedtheir entire life. Of you go to
high school, you go to college,you get a career, you retire,
you die. You don't have to gothat route. You don't have to go
to college if you don't want to.
(05:10):
You don't have to get a quote,unquote career in a corporate
job if you don't want to. Thatwas drilled into my head for so
long, and I full out believed ituntil about five years ago, when
I started realizing I don't haveto do this.
Valerie Friedlander (05:22):
What made that shift for you?
Nikki Smith (05:25):
Honestly, Covid helped a lot. I hate to say,
that Covid helped, but you knowwhat I mean
Valerie Friedlander (05:30):
I do,
Nikki Smith (05:31):
The pandemic kind of helped push that like I I
was, I'm obsessed with peoplethat live nomadic lifestyles.
That is an a goal for me oneday, is to live life, you know,
on the road, be it, you know,van, RV, whatever, even just
couch to couch, I don't care,and that's always fascinated me.
So I love learning about those,those people and what they do
(05:52):
and their lifestyles like. Andit never occurred to me that
something like that would bepossible, because growing up in,
you know, middle class, middleAmerica. It's like the people
that do that are looked downupon. Like, no, these people are
really cool. And as thingsstarted becoming more and more
remote, like, I started workingremote for my full time day job
(06:13):
I used to have at home. And Iwas like, I can do this
anywhere, because we would go onvacation, and I would still be
able to log in and work part ofthe day. So, yeah.
Valerie Friedlander (06:24):
Yeah. Well, and it's, it's something that I
think about as living reallyfully. Like, what is it like?
What does it mean to like, fullylive your life? And I was also
one of those people who like,fit the prescription of you go
to school, you get good grades,you graduate, you get married,
you get a job, you climb thecorporate ladder, you buy a
(06:47):
house in the suburbs, you havetwo children, and then
Nikki Smith (06:53):
Question mark?
Valerie Friedlander (06:54):
yeah?
eventually you get to retire,maybe, if you're lucky.. and
Nikki Smith (07:01):
Yeah. Well, and I broke that pretty quick, just
out of the fact that I didn'treally have any desire to get
married for a long time, and Inever really wanted kids, so
that part of the equation wasnever, never registered in my
brain, but it was still justpushed upon like, well, you
still have to have a job, acareer. And,
Valerie Friedlander (07:19):
Yeah, well, and it's something that, of
course, has come much more hometo me. And one of the reasons
why, when I learned about youand what you do, I was like, we
definitely need to talk aboutthis, because I had never heard
of a death doula, like I said,I've heard of a birth doula. I
had support from one in givingbirth. I used midwives, but, you
(07:41):
know, we got training from abirth doula, and really got an
understanding of what I couldask for, what I wanted in that
process, and how to create thatspace for myself and have others
who can support me creating thatspace. So I was like, Oh, I had
(08:02):
never thought about that beingapplied to end of life. And here
I am at, you know, relativelyyoung age of 42 and I've lost a
number of people relativelyrecently, friends, friends,
spouses. It it's been and itwas, I guess I was like, Oh, I
(08:26):
didn't realize I was at that ageyet, because I always thought,
you know, later, because this isthe order that you do things in
that or like, sudden loss. I'vemy my cousin died in a bike
accident and and that has beenreally hard. I've been blessed
to not have a lot of loss in mylife. And so seeing this and
(08:48):
starting to think aboutmortality a lot more, also with
the situation of the world andeverything that's going on, you
know, there's just a lot morethinking about it. And so I was
like, I would love to know andhave you share with the people
who are listening, what is itthat you do? How? Yeah, I'm
gonna leave it at that.
Unknown (09:09):
Yeah. Well, and thank you for bringing up the birth
doula, because most people haveheard of a birth doula. I've
only encountered a handful ofpeople who have not ever heard
of a birth doula. So once I askthem if they understand what
birth doulas do, they say, andthey say, Yes, I'm like, then
you know what I do? So much likeyou were saying you received
support ahead of time as how youwant your birthing process to
(09:30):
go. I do very much the samething for people who are facing
end of life and this, I mean,this can be anybody who has a
terminal diagnosis, somebody whois still receiving treatment, or
even just somebody who might be,you know, in their mid to late
70s, and they know, you know, itcould be coming now, or it could
be 20 years from now, but theywant to be ready. I work with
people my age, sometimes justgetting their advanced directive
(09:52):
paperwork together to make surethey have everything taken care
of that they need to but yeah,just like you said, I help
people come up with most of myclients have. Terminal
diagnosis, and I will help themcome up with their plan for how
they would like for their finaldays, weeks, months to go, and
that can look like, you know,they would, most people want to
be at home. How can we set upyour home? Is that feasible? Is
(10:13):
hospice ready? You know, shouldwe sign up for hospice and
explaining to them, the family,how hospice works and what they
do and what they don't do do weneed extra care? Where can we
find that I so I do a little bitof the social work stuff to just
help them get those taken careof. But then you know, what are
your spiritual beliefs? Do youhave a certain ritual? Do you
have certain people that youneed around you? Do you have
(10:35):
certain items that you needpresent in your final breaths?
And so once they are no longerable to speak for themselves, I
can speak for them to make surethat their wishes are honored.
Valerie Friedlander (10:44):
Are there legal aspects that go into that?
Because, like, I know advanceddirectives and power of
attorney, and like all of that,I've a friend who's a state
attorney, and so, like I I knowthat when I was birthing, I
could have said I want my Doulapresent, and then they would
have a say, and if I was notable to communicate, well, that
(11:06):
they would do that for me. Whatdoes that look like?
Nikki Smith (11:10):
So, now, in a situation like that, I don't
know if the birthing doula coulddo that, unless you made them
your healthcare power ofattorney, and this is to make,
you know, life decisions as faras if, let's say you are, you
have terminal illness, you haveALS and you have a stroke and
you're now in the hospital, youmight not necessarily been on
(11:30):
hospice, yet you might not be inyour last final months, but now
you've had this massive strokeand you are brain dead, or
you're just no longerresponsive. Who is going to make
that decision as far as lifesustaining like, Do you want a
feeding tube? Do you want to beon artificial breathing
machines? And do you not wantthat? And the power of attorney
(11:51):
is the person that will makethat decision for you, and it is
a legal document. You don't needan attorney to complete one. You
can find those whatever stateyou're in, I encourage you to
just Google healthcare power ofattorney my state, and you'll
find that form most of the time.
All you need is a notary tonotarize that document,
sometimes even just twowitnesses. Then those do need to
be honored. And financial powerof attorney is the same, only
(12:13):
that's like somebody that canmanage your finances if you are
no longer able to do so.
Valerie Friedlander (12:19):
I'm curious that because you, I'm sure you
get a lot of questions and a lotof things that you're like,
they're things that people don'tknow, because this is considered
a taboo subject. Absolutelynobody wants to talk about it,
even when you're talking tolike, parents who are aging. You
know, my age of having thoseconversations with my parents as
they age, and like, what areyour plans so that I know I'm
(12:40):
the eldest daughter, what aresome of those things that you're
like? People really should knowthis.
Unknown (12:45):
Yeah, yeah. I remember.
I can very vividly remember Iwas young, like, maybe eight,
910, years old, and I the thethought just popped into my head
one day, and I asked my mom. Iwas like, what will happen to
Grandma's house when she dies?
Because she lived there alone,her husband had died a long time
prior. My grandfather died wellbefore I was born, and my mom
(13:05):
looked at me aghast and justsaid, That's don't she just
seemed horrified that I evenasked that question. I didn't
know any better at the time. Butthese are valid questions, and
we can't be afraid of those. Youknow, I would hope if somebody
were to ask you what wouldhappen to your home if you pass
away, you would have an answerright away. If you don't that
might I'm hoping that would alsomake that trigger in your brain
(13:27):
to say, I need to figure thisout so I know what will happen
with my home when I die. Thebank would probably just take
mine. But, you know, I still oweon it. But you're right. We are
way too scared to talk aboutthese things. And me being a
death doula, I talk about deathand dying all day long, so it
doesn't faze me. I also respectthat it's it's a scary subject
(13:48):
for a lot of people. But if I,if nothing else, if I can
encourage people to know thattalking about it doesn't make it
happen. I promise you, bringingup death doesn't make somebody
die. It's not how that works.
Valerie Friedlander (14:00):
Thank you for saying that. I almost feel
like that's probably the mostimportant thing that people
don't know yet, that they needto know. There's so much,
especially in the wellnessspace, there's so much layer of
manifestation, like speak itinto the existence. And so I
think in a lot of ways, that wayof talking about things kind of
(14:21):
reinforces this idea that youshould, don't talk about the
quote, unquote negative things,because if you say them right,
then they'll be there. Exceptthat oftentimes that means that
we're, like, not talking aboutthings that actually are there
you need to talk about,
Nikki Smith (14:37):
Yeah, well, and grief is the same way we don't
talk about grieving and grief,and I'm a I do grief coaching as
well, and I also work withfamilies after their person has
passed away, to help themprocess their grief and get
through that initial hump. Andwe're not taught as a society or
as a culture how to grieve, andit's going to be different for
(14:58):
everybody. So there's nohandbook. There are. Handbooks,
don't get me wrong, but they'reall, you know, everybody's going
to be different. Some people aregoing to, like, ball their eyes
out and scream and cry. Somepeople are going to hold it in.
Some people are going to expressit through their art medium.
Like, there's a million ways togrieve, but we're not taught
that it's even okay or to talkabout it, and so we just sit
(15:19):
alone with our grief, wondering,Am I doing it right? You know?
Valerie Friedlander (15:24):
Yeah, you know, that really stands out to
me, especially because I am aparent, and a lot of the people
that I've lost recently hadyoung children, and I wonder, as
a death doula, supportingpeople. What do you see with
(15:45):
that, like, how? How do peopleapproach that? Um, both in the
process of losing someone, butalso in the aftermath of that
loss.
Nikki Smith (15:58):
Approaching grief?
You mean?
Valerie Friedlander (15:59):
Yeah, well, yeah, grief. I mean, especially
just as a parent. I mean, I'msure you've worked with people
who have kids that they'rethinking of and preparing to not
be there for, and then also aspouse who then has to hold the
family while grieving at thesame time, holding space and
(16:20):
grieving at the same time. Justis a lot.
Unknown (16:23):
Yeah, it is a lot. And I do see a lot of people in that
situation. And I was in thatposition myself. My only brother
passed away unexpectedly almost10 years ago, and I specifically
remember and I talked about thiswith somebody else after his
death, my my reaction to thiswas, I don't have a space, or I
(16:44):
don't need a space to grieve,because I'm just the sister like
my parents lost their son. Theylost their only son, their
oldest child, and he had twoyoung children, and they there
are these two under 18,beautiful children that lost
their dad. So there's no spacefor me to grieve this, because I
need to help take care of them,and I need to help take care of
(17:04):
my parents and make sureeverybody's okay that I never
even thought about grievingmyself and that it, it came back
to bite me real hard. It took afew years, but it hit me that i
i Never processed that thatloss, and so it is a tricky
space. So I always encouragepeople to take a ask for help.
Okay, if you need it, ask forhelp. There is no shame in that.
(17:27):
And if you're not comfortabletalking to friends or family,
find a therapist, find a griefcoach, find a life coach, find
somebody, an objective thirdparty, that you can just vent to
and have that space to processyour grief, to talk about it, to
you know, get through whateveryou need to get through so that
(17:47):
you can be available. Because ifyou don't deal with your it's
like the oxygen mask in theairplane. If you don't put it on
yourself first, you can't helpthe person next to you. So you
have to take care of yourself ifyou want to take care of other
people. 100%
Valerie Friedlander (18:00):
Yeah. So what does it look like when
you're helping people with that,like, how, what is there a
process? I mean, I know we'rejust talking about, like,
there's no, like, one size fitsall process when it comes to
grief, even though, like, fivestages of grief. Well, we know
that those are all over theplace. They're not just five,
and they definitely don't gointo order, and they show up
(18:22):
even when you thought that theywere not there anymore, and all
of that.
Nikki Smith (18:26):
It's not a to do list. You don't check them off.
Valerie Friedlander (18:29):
It's not into it's not a to do list. Even
if you want it to be a to dolist, there's definitely been
some, some griefs that I'vewalked through. I'm like, Okay,
could we just check that one nowand maybe it can be done.
Nikki Smith (18:41):
Yeah.
Valerie Friedlander (18:42):
and it's not how it works at all,
Nikki Smith (18:43):
Yeah. And some people never get to acceptance.
Some people just never, neverget to that acceptance level.
And that's that's okay, youknow, it's gonna look different
for those people. But as far aslike a process, the biggest and
most important thing I can do isjust giving them a space to talk
about it. Because, like I said,especially those who have other
(19:05):
family members who have sufferedthe same loss, or that, you
know, lost the same person orthing, or whatever it might be,
it's hard for them to talk aboutthat with each other, and it's
hard for them to deal with theirown when they're trying to deal
with everybody else's grief aswell and keep maybe keeping the
house together, keeping a job.
So if nothing else, giving theman hour or two a week to just
talk it out is invaluable. Youknow, you you understand that
(19:28):
too.
Valerie Friedlander (19:30):
Yeah.
Nikki Smith (19:31):
Like just giving people that space, but I help
people understand where they're,you know, where they're not
facing it, and help them withgrounding techniques to get
through their day to day andother coping mechanisms they can
for one, if they're not with meand they're with, you know, at
their job or with their kids orwherever, and it hits and it
hits hard, what can we do inthat moment to, you know,
(19:52):
recenter yourself so that youcan get to yourself to a safe
space?
Valerie Friedlander (19:55):
Yeah, yeah.
That makes a lot of sense. Andyou have a podcast. And I was
listening to it, and I love howyou approach things with a lot
of care, and also you talk abouthumor. And so, you know, when we
talk about grief, I thinkoftentimes we forget that we
have a full range of emotionswhen we are talking about stuff,
(20:17):
especially if it's close tosomebody, we do need somebody
else to talk to that's not sodirectly impacted by it, because
to be able to be irreverentabout something, yeah, that is
going to have such an impact onsomebody else's life. Or to, you
know, have humor about it, or toreally talk about logistics of
(20:37):
it, or any of those things it'sit's hard to do when it's
someone who's impacted. So Iappreciate that you engage that
full range of experience,because we're still human, even
in all layers of theseprocesses.
Unknown (20:55):
Yeah, absolutely. And there's going to be days where
you are going to need to beangry, you're going to need to
scream. You might, you know,punch a pillow or do something
constructive with your anger. Gofor, I usually go for a run or
an aggressive bike ride if Ihave to, if I'm in that anger
space to help work that energyout. Or, you know, you might be
(21:15):
in a space that day where youjust need to cry and be alone,
or cut out everything altogetherand just Doom scroll on your
social media. We poo, poo doingthat. But sometimes you need
that to distract yourself.
That's gonna work. I scrollTiktok sometimes for like, two
hours when I'm upset.
Valerie Friedlander (21:31):
Oh yeah,
Nikki Smith (21:32):
You know? And sometimes you need to laugh at
it, like we absolutely hadmoments of laughter after my
brother passed away. I tell thestory a lot. So if you've if
anybody's listening to mypodcast, they've heard it a
million times. But we had mybrother cremated, and we have a
plot, a family plot, where wewere putting his ashes, and this
was a year after he had died,and we were driving to the
(21:54):
cemetery, my parents were thefront seat, and I was in the
back seat with the urn, and Ikept joking. I was like, "Mom!
Scott's on my side of the car!"like we did when we were kids.
My mom, bless her heart, turnedaround, said, "We will turn this
car around and go home!" So shecould have been upset at me,
because it was such a it wassuch a down day, because we had
all spent a year and we werestarting to come out of our
(22:15):
grief, and now we had thisagain, and it was just such a
somber thing, and I couldn'ttake it anymore?
Valerie Friedlander (22:21):
Yeah, so I'm curious how you got into
this work.
Nikki Smith (22:26):
Yeah. I had heard about death doulas quite a while
back, probably eight or nineyears ago on a YouTube video.
And I was like, what a flippingcool thing that is. And I
started, like, trying to findsome information on there just
wasn't much at that time becauseit's such a relatively new
profession. It's not a newprofession. It's new as death
doula as we know it. Right now,people have been doing what we
(22:49):
do for ever, but as an actuallike, scope of work as a death
doula is relatively new, and Icouldn't find a ton of
information on it, but I justkept like, I hear little bits
and find random articles. And Ijust kept thinking it was such a
such a cool thing, and I startedvolunteering at a hospice, and I
just, I just felt so natural. Itfelt like home to me to be doing
(23:12):
this. And then covid, like Imentioned before, kind of shook
up everything with me, and Irealized I just was not happy
with where I was in my life, andI needed to do something
meaningful that gave back to theworld in some way, shape or
form, because I felt like I'djust been stuck in this
corporate life of, you know,money and greed and everything
(23:32):
else. I'm like, I don't likethis. I don't want to do this
anymore. I want to live a lifethat gives back and is more, you
know, impactful in some way,shape or form, and this death
doula thing kept coming up tome. So I was working with a life
coach at the time too, and shefinally said, so why don't you
just do it? It never occurred tome I could just do it. So I
found a training and did thewent through the training
(23:55):
course, and here I am.
Valerie Friedlander (23:58):
I appreciate that a lot, and and
the work that you do, because ifwe can't embrace our mortality,
then we're disconnecting from acore part of our humanity, yeah?
And I think in a lot of spaces,like corporate spaces, and it's
all future focused, but it's nottoo future focused, yeah, right.
(24:19):
Like, if I just earn enoughmoney, and then I have all this
stuff, and then I will get toretire and do the fun things.
And I think a lot of thatthinking is breaking down as
we're watching how it's notworking.
Nikki Smith (24:32):
Yeah, yeah, retirement is not really a thing
anymore.
Valerie Friedlander (24:35):
Right.
Nikki Smith (24:36):
Well, and how many stores have you heard about the
guy who worked his entire lifeto retirement in two weeks after
retired, died of a heart attack.
Valerie Friedlander (24:42):
Right.
Well, we're starting torecognize the stress impact on
our bodies, yeah, and all theways that we are living in the
world that are breaking us down,literally. So,
Nikki Smith (24:54):
yeah,
Valerie Friedlander (24:54):
that is a real thing. And so to be able
to, you know, to just like,well, I'm only going to think
this far, but I'm not. Going tothink that far and recognizing
that as part of mortality, thatis part of humanity. Yeah,
there's a lot of fear there. Ithink to go that far to think
that far, because we are losingcorporeal existence. We're
(25:17):
losing the space that we know,that we're familiar with, yeah,
and what do you find comes upfor people when they start
thinking about that?
Unknown (25:32):
I think most people are scared when you talk about death
or dying and again, this iswhere our aversion to it comes.
We don't want to think about itbecause we're scared, because we
don't it's it's this thingthat's there, that's this big
event that kind of you know, forall we know, ends it forever for
(25:53):
us. And we don't know when it'scoming. None of us know even I
mean, you might have adiagnosis. They might say you
have XYZ time, but you stilljust, most of us, at any given
point, have no idea when we'regoing to die, and that's scary,
because you know you have thingsyou want to do, you're living
your life, you're you'reexcited, and you have plans, and
(26:14):
to know that at any moment thatcould be gone. It's It's
terrifying for people, and Ithink that's the point most
people are at, is they don'tunders. You know, we don't know
what's going to happen. We don'tknow how it's going to go. We
just know that one day we'regoing to die and this will all
be over. And I always encouragepeople, it's it's okay to be
scared of that. I am too, ofcourse, I am. I've got a million
(26:35):
plans I'd like to do before theend of my life, but I don't
know. I could get hit by a bustomorrow. But, you know, use
that to embrace today. You know,I'm not saying you have to Yolo
every single day of your life,because that's just not
feasible. But, like, I took ahuge risk leaving a corporate
job to open up my own businessas a death doula, like, you
(26:56):
know, but I also recognize,like, I could die any day, and I
don't want to die knowing Ididn't pursue this. So if, if
you're trying to make thatdecision, make it. Just do it.
Life is too short.
Valerie Friedlander (27:10):
Yeah, there's a line at the end of the
Red Hot Chili Peppers song,"Can't Stop" that I've always
appreciated, and it's "this lifeis more than just a read
through." And it just reminds methat this isn't a dress
rehearsal. We don't get anotherone, at least that we're
(27:34):
conscious of. Most of us, Isuppose, not to project any
belief systems on anybody sobut, you know, there's is the
reason why I coach the way Icoach is very much about like,
what are we bringing into ournow space? Not like, what do you
(27:54):
imagine you'll experience in thefuture, and what does it look
like to bring that into our nowspace? Because our means create
our ends,
Nikki Smith (28:04):
yeah,
Valerie Friedlander (28:05):
in life, and that way you know that
you're like, you're living fullyand not just waiting for
something else to happen.
Because when we live like that,we're always chasing something
anyway. So it's like, you'renever actually gonna have it.
You're just gonna chase it.
Nikki Smith (28:19):
Yeah?
Valerie Friedlander (28:21):
So I know that for the work that I do,
it's very personal as well, andthere's just a lot of different
ways of approaching things. Andfor people who don't necessarily
know I you have an episode onyour podcast, they're talking
about hospice and breaking downmyths around hospice.
Nikki Smith (28:41):
Oh, yeah.
Valerie Friedlander (28:41):
And like, helping people engage hospice?
Nikki Smith (28:43):
Yeah,
Valerie Friedlander (28:44):
and it brought to mind as I was
listening to it, and I'll haveit linked in the show notes for
people who want to go check thatout. But what would you like
people to know about findingcare? Like, and I think about
like, what are the things tolook for when they're looking
for support around death,whether it's their own or a
(29:06):
loved ones. What are things thatpeople should look for? What are
like red flags? Because thereare certainly practitioners out
there who are not necessarily inalignment with the people who
are searching. So what shouldpeople be looking for, both in
the ways that are helpful, inthe ways that are maybe not?
Nikki Smith (29:28):
Yeah. Well, first thing I would say is, like,
especially if it comes tohospice, you're allowed to shop
around, and you're also allowedto fire your hospice. If you
start on the team and it's notworking and you don't like them,
you can end that there's there'sno like, sorry, you're in it
until the end, you can find adifferent hospice, but shop
(29:50):
around. Don't be afraid to callseveral have them come to your
house. Chat with them. Most ofthem will come to the house for
screening anyway, to go overeligibility requirements. But.
And same with home like, ifyou're getting home health care,
shop around and you can firethem at any point too. Do your
research. If you're going tohave strangers coming in and out
of your house, you know, makesure you're with a reputable
(30:13):
organization that has anylicenses they might need,
especially when it comes tonurses and nursing staff. Do
they require licenses? Make surethey have all that so, yeah,
don't be afraid to research.
Valerie Friedlander (30:24):
And what about hiring someone like you
Unknown (30:28):
Now death doulas, depending on where you are
within the country, like there'smaybe a dozen of us in the
entire state of Ohio. I'm inColumbus, Ohio. If you go to New
York or Oregon, you're going tohave, you know, a lot to choose
from. So same thing. Feel freeto shop around. But any one of
us that I've ever spoken with,we'll do a couple introductory
(30:51):
sessions. We'll meet with you,we'll chat with you to kind of
make sure that we're all on thesame page and you vibe well with
that person, like a birth doula,right? I've, I've never been
through the birthing process,but I would imagine that's such
an intimate thing that I wouldwant somebody I trust and that I
really get along with to bepresent for that. And same with
(31:12):
dying. Dying is a very intimateexperience, and if somebody's
going to be right there with youthe whole time, holding your
hand and walking you through it,you want to make sure it's
somebody you get along with andthat you trust.
Valerie Friedlander (31:25):
Is this something that you work with
people virtually, or is it allin person?
Unknown (31:29):
doula work. I will do a lot of my initial meetings via
zoom or over the phone until weall are comfortable with each
other, and then it'll reallykind of depend on the
circumstance where they are, butI will be with them at some
(31:51):
point. I can do full virtualbut, you know, obviously, when
it comes to the person beingactively dying, it's preferable
for me to be physically presentso I can make sure things are
going the way they want it to.
Valerie Friedlander (32:03):
Yeah, that makes sense. If there's a last
thing that you would want peopleto know about the work that you
do. I mean, obviously we want toencourage people to go listen to
your podcast where they can getall the information. But is
there something that you youwould like the people listening
to take away.
Nikki Smith (32:24):
Yeah, we are a lot of people kind of misunderstand
what we do. And yes, we arethere to hold your hand
physically as you pass away. Butthere's so much more we can do.
And we work with people after asudden loss. We work with people
who are not even actively dyingyet or nowhere near their death,
store, anything around end oflife, work we can help with,
(32:47):
even if you meet with us justone time to help understand your
your Advanced Directive,paperwork, what you need, what
you don't need. You know, Icould talk all day long about
all the different services wecould provide. So yeah, don't be
afraid to reach out. Like, ifyou just have questions, anybody
who's in this line of work,we're doing it because we want
to, right? I can tell you, we'renot in it for the money, but you
(33:08):
can... don't be afraid to reachout to us and we'll answer your
questions. We're happy to talkabout what we do
Valerie Friedlander (33:14):
That's so important. Because, I mean, I do
see this also within the withpeople using birth dualism,
like, I just don't want to dealwith finding somebody else. And
like, I don't want to bedifficult. And like all the
people pleaser like, I this is,this is your life, this is your
death. Like, you get to bedifficult. You're allowed,
(33:35):
Yeah, and let us do that. Thereare so many people I've worked
with that want are in that spacewhere they're ready to stop
treatment, but they're scared tobecause their family doesn't
want them to. Their family wantsthem to keep fighting. And
they're, they're ready, they'redone, you know, they're they're
past the fighting stage. Theyjust want to end peacefully. And
they're scared to upset the theapple cart, so to speak. So I'm
(33:58):
like, let me come in and havethat help navigate that
conversation with your family.
You know, I'll do it a gentleway, but let me help that
conversation happen.
Yeah. Oh, well, I reallyappreciate the work that you do.
Where can people find you?
Unknown (34:13):
I am on the interwebs.
My website is nikkitheula.comand it's spelled n, i, k, k, i.
I'm also on Facebook, Instagramand Tiktok, all at Nikki the
death doula, awesome.
Valerie Friedlander (34:25):
Well, I will have links in the show
notes. I like to wrap up with acouple questions,
Nikki Smith (34:31):
Sure.
Valerie Friedlander (34:31):
First one is, what does it mean to you to
be unlimited?
Nikki Smith (34:35):
To be unlimited?
Oh, that's a very good question.
I think that means keeping yourmind as open as possible to any
and all experiences.
Valerie Friedlander (34:48):
Yeah, and when you want to welcome in that
unlimited feeling, what song doyou listen to?
Nikki Smith (34:57):
Oh, there is...
ehhh. I listen to really weird,obscure music, but there's an
artist from the UK called AphexTwin does techno music. And
there's one particular song,it's called "On" O N and there's
no lyrics or anything. But thatsong always just makes me feel
so like open and calm andvibrant all at once. I love that
(35:18):
song.
Valerie Friedlander (35:20):
Cool. Well, I will add that to the unlimited
podcast playlist so everybodycan go check it out.
Nikki Smith (35:28):
Yay.
Valerie Friedlander (35:29):
And thank you so much Nikki for joining me
today and sharing about what youdo. Really appreciate you.
Nikki Smith (35:35):
Thank you. Thank you for having me and giving me
a space to talk about what I do,because I love talking about
what I do.
Valerie Friedlander (35:40):
Yay! Thanks for listening. I so appreciate
you being here. If you gotsomething out of today's
episode, please share it, leaveme a review, take a screenshot
and post it on social with ashout out to me. Send it to a
friend or, you know, all of theabove. Want to hang out more,
join me on Instagram, or betteryet, get on my mailing list to
(36:01):
make sure you don't miss out onanything, and remember your
possibilities are as unlimitedas you are. Allow yourself to
shine, my friend, the worldneeds your light. See you next
time you.
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