August 18, 2025 • 52 mins
Trust forms the foundation of effective leadership in today's multi-generational workplace, where retention has become the new recruitment and development opportunities matter more than ever before.
• Leadership today requires balancing high expectations with genuine care for people
• "Retention is the new recruitment" in today's talent war environment
• Development opportunities create loyalty even when employees eventually move on
• Trust levels in organizational leadership are at historic lows according to research
• The pandemic revealed which organizations had built strong trust foundations
• Effective feedback requires leaders to go first in both giving and receiving
• The "Four Cores of Credibility" include integrity, intent, capabilities, and results
• Confronting reality with respect builds rather than damages relationships
• Mentorship plays a crucial role in leadership development
• Regular one-on-one meetings create essential connection points that shouldn't be canceled
Connect with us on LinkedIn and visit www.franklincovey.com to learn more about leadership development opportunities, including our newly updated Six Critical Practices for Leading a Team.
Connect with Ron
Just Make A Difference: Leading Under Pressure by Ron Harvey
“If you don’t have something to measure your growth, you won’t be self-aware or intentional about your growth.”
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Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Unpacked Podcast with your host
leadership consultant, ronHarvey of GlobalCore Strategies
and Consulting.
Ron believes that leadership isthe fundamental driver towards
making a difference.
So now to find out more of whatit means to unpack leadership,
here's your host, ron Harvey.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Good afternoon everyone.
This is Ron Harvey, the vicepresident, the chief operating
officer for Global CoreStrategies and Consulting.
Back with you again for anotheranother episode of Unpacked
with Ron Harvey, where we inviteguests from around the world to
talk about real leadershipexperiences and some of the
challenges and things that we'relearning in our own
professional careers or exposureand experiences.
So I'm always excited to beable to bring something to you
(00:43):
that will make a difference inyour role and responsibilities
as a leader.
So excited to have Corrie withus and you know I always invite
our guests to do theirintroduction for two reasons I
don't mess it up and who knowshow to talk better about
themselves than the personthemselves?
So I'm going to invite Corrieand hand her a microphone and
get out of her way and let herintroduce herself.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
So I'm going to invite Cori and hand her the
microphone and get out of herway and let her introduce
herself.
Thanks, ron, and helloeverybody.
So I'm Cori Kogan.
I serve currently as the vicepresident of content development
for FranklinCovey, one of thelargest leadership companies in
the world, and I live in Tucson,arizona.
I was originally born andraised in New York.
Originally born and raised inNew York, so I am blessed to be
(01:30):
able to work with people andteams around the world, around
their leadership, productivity,things like that.
I have a very strong businessbackground, formerly an EVP of
Worldwide Operations for aglobal franchise organization,
so I get to bring the best ofreal life business to the
principles of FranklinCovey tohelp teams and organizations
everywhere.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Thank you, corey.
I mean thank you for being here, Thank you for taking the time
out and sharing a little bitabout who you are and, as
everybody knows, as we do thepodcast, we will promise you
we'll talk about leadership, butI would love for us to, at the
end of the day, as we go throughthe conversation, I always I'm
pretty transparent about whatI've done well, what I haven't
done well, but you're in one ofthe largest organizations that
(02:11):
spend a lot of time inleadership development.
Let's dive in a little bit.
What are you noticing the shift?
The pendulum is swinging andshifting with five to six
generations in the workforce.
What are some of the thingsthat you're recognizing in the
work that you do with so manypeople across the globe around?
Speaker 3 (02:28):
leadership.
Well, you know I considermyself a young baby boomer.
Well, I am a young baby boomeras it is.
So I, you know I come from thatperspective and you know this
gift of my working with peopleall the time.
I remain open-minded to all ofthe shifts and changes and how I
can be better at, you know,with whether it's my age or my
(02:51):
style or whatever it might bedesire to be developed, to move
up faster, to take on more andmore responsibility when given
the opportunity and I know noteverybody feels that way about
(03:15):
some of the younger generations,but that's what I've seen that
if given half a chance and giventhe roadway to do it, they will
develop.
So I find that when they'relooking for who they should work
for, they're going to look foran organization where
development is part of it,whether it's for their current
job, for a future job withintheir company or even being
(03:40):
developed for their career, tobe able to move on to the next
thing.
Because I think we've all knownthis has been out there for a
while People aren't staying atorganizations as long as they
used to.
Not everybody's staying for 10,15 years anymore.
It's become the norm stay for acouple of years and move on,
and those organizations that arereally working with their
(04:01):
people to help with that as anassumption of where people are
going to be attracted to go to.
I think the other thing is just, you know, the shift in
technology and technology useand as the younger generations
are coming up and are native tonot only digital, but now the
(04:21):
need for AI skills and peoplecoming in with AI skills and
some organizations requiring it,I think that's a giant shift
that we have to be thinkingabout as well.
So those are a couple of onesat least, as the newer
generations are coming into theworkplace.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Wow, corey.
I mean you brought a lot tounpack which is really
intriguing and interesting,especially from the organization
that you're in, you know andthe work and the people you get
exposure to.
I want to unpack a little bitabout.
So what we're tellingorganizations, based on your
conversation here, is how do wehelp organizations be prepared
that you're not going to havesomeone 10 to 15 years anymore
(04:57):
and you're going to have someonethat's looking for development
more than it used to be money?
I think money is relevant, butit's not the most important
thing from my exposure andexperience.
How do you help organizationalleaders be prepared for that
without being frustrated aboutit?
Speaker 3 (05:11):
Well, it's a mindset change, you know, because
everybody wants it.
I mean there's a talent war inthe biggest way it's ever been.
We're not having babies the waywe used to.
You know it's flatlined inpopulation.
So we like to say thatretention is the new recruitment
.
So business unit leaders, ceos,everybody in organizations
(05:35):
really need to do the best jobto retain their people as long
as they can.
So it's not a given that peopleare going to leave in a couple
of years.
But leaders should be strivingto figure out methods and ways
that people think twice beforeleaving.
And I just want to make a pointabout the money.
(05:55):
People will leave for money.
If they are not appreciated ordon't feel like they have a
purpose in an organization, itbecomes the only currency for
them to.
You know to well, I'm going togo to that company because
they're going to pay me more andmy boss doesn't even know I
exist here, they'll go.
But when somebody in anorganization feels wanted and
(06:18):
trusted and valued and they seehow what they do connects to the
you know the mission and thevision of the organization A lot
of times, not to say they won'tleave for money, but, to your
point, it becomes a lot harderto say, hey, that other company.
It's a substantial raise, but Idon't know.
(06:38):
I don't know if it's worth itto not have the kind of culture
that we, you know that we havehere.
So there you go yes, have you?
Speaker 2 (06:46):
have you found on your career in in the work?
And it's changing fast.
Have you found how doorganizations pay more attention
to the, the upward mobility?
Because you know people getquestions.
They want a corner office, theywant vp, they want um a lot
faster than we did.
We were taught to stay 30 yearsor 40 years and just wait your
turn.
That's not the generation,that's not even the mindset
(07:08):
today.
Wait your turn because there'ssome really young people that
are really good and and thereare some people that are, you
know, more seasoned, that havekind of had their best years
already and don't pass the batonfast enough.
How do you balance that out?
Don't don't promote faster thanyou should, but don't hold on
longer than you should that out.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
Don't promote faster than you should, but don't hold
on longer than you should.
Well listen, I'm a baby boomer.
Should I get out?
I'm not ready to get out, I'mnot ready to go anywhere yet.
I'm just being candid with you.
And so there might be people inthe organization like
(08:03):
no-transcript.
It means what I said before.
Some people will be developedand take those skills to another
company and speak nicely aboutthe company they came from,
which is, you know, reallyhelpful too.
So there's no magic bullet tothat.
But the fact that somebodyfeels like somebody cares about
(08:28):
helping them grow is more andmore important.
And I got to tell you andpeople that know me, I am very
candid, very honest and I'll putthe mirror up any time of day.
I could be one, and I was.
I've been in executiveleadership for many, many years.
I have to work at it every,every day.
But I could be one of thosepeople that says you know, just
do your job.
(08:48):
It's so much easier to be a badleader.
It's just like just do what Itell you, just do your job and
leave me alone, right, kind ofthing.
But of course that's not goingto win you any points and it's
not the right thing to do,principally and I'm a principled
person.
And but when somebody feels likeyou're paying attention to them
, even though there may not beopportunity right now, or they
(09:09):
are in a small organization whenthey feel that I'm interested
in their growth and helping themdevelop, while also, by the way
, getting results.
I don't want to forget theresult side.
This is not all about beingnice and helping people.
You got to do the job, you gotto get results.
So there's this balance therearound it.
(09:30):
But as long as people feel thatway, then if there's an
opportunity, they know you'retrying and there's agreement too
.
Listen, if there's notsomething here, you know I get
it.
You know we're getting youready for the next thing in your
life.
That will create stickiness too, where they may stay longer and
(09:52):
you know to see if it plays outin their favor and maybe it
won't.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Wow, I love the approach that you're taking.
You mentioned I want to unpacka little bit.
You know about holding peopleaccountable while at the same
time being kind.
I guess is the way I would sayit, and some people struggle at
that.
How do you make sure that youdo hold people, because results
are important, but it's not justresults that are important.
There's more to the workforce.
(10:18):
Today We've got to be prettyagile as leaders.
Can you speak to how agile wehave to be and what does that
look like today versus when youand I may have become in our
first role of leadership?
It's changed drastically.
Speaker 3 (10:29):
We are spending a lot of time.
I'm in the middle of a body, ofre-releasing a body of work, or
what we call the six criticalpractices of leading a team,
where we actually spent a littlemore time on it.
Because you know the world ofleadership has swung and we know
.
You know it's not just aboutgetting results If that's all
(10:53):
you're interested in, you knowbut leaving bodies along the way
to get some short-term results,you're going to lose your
people and that's notsustainable.
You're going to get theshort-term results, but what
does that mean for a year or twofrom now?
So we know that that doesn'twork.
Stephen M R Covey, who is, youknow our trust.
You know the world's expert intrust in his work around trust
(11:16):
and inspire calls it.
You know command and control totrust and inspire.
So you can't just go forresults.
On the other hand, I and we atFranklin Covey have seen over
the years it's swing a littletoo far to.
Your team needs to be engagedand they need to be happy and
(11:38):
we've got to be concerned abouttheir wellbeing.
All of that is true, but therehas to be a balance.
We want people engaged and wesay the height of that is true,
but there has to be a balance.
We want people engaged and wesay the height of engagement is
what we call creative excitement.
They're creative excitement,they want to show up, they want
to innovate, whatever great, andare you getting results from
them?
Because you can have themengaged.
(12:00):
But if they're not getting theresults?
And so we, in our new body ofwork, we, we say that a leader
needs to have the mindset of ifI expect a lot, I, I need to
care a lot so that we setexpectations and you know that
we realize we have we got.
We have expectations, we havestretch goals.
(12:21):
We have a big mission, bigvision.
There's a lot going on in theworld, but if I'm going to get
there sustainably, to achievesustainable results, then I need
to care a lot about my people.
And if you think about thedifferences, I can expect a lot
and not care, and we're back toshort term results.
I can care a lot and not expecta lot, and I'm now a people
(12:43):
pleaser, which doesn't work.
I can be neither of those.
I don't expect a lot, I don'tcare a lot, and you're sort of
an absentee leader.
So we say great leaders are theones that expect a lot and care
a lot.
So we get this balance of we'renot developing leaders to
create a bunch of happy people.
(13:03):
We want them to be happy people, we want them to be happy, we
want them to well be being.
By the end of the day, acompany is in business to
achieve a result, whether you'rea non-profit, government or
corporate.
So that's that's the new,that's that's how everybody
should be going into it, withthe outcome sustained
performance over time.
(13:23):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
I mean, I love that you're pointing out, for
everyone that's listening withthe outcome sustained
performance over time andretention.
I love it.
I mean.
I love that you're pointing outfor everyone that's listening
like your new recruitment isretention.
I mean yeah.
I mean.
So I love that you're sayingthat.
I want to lean in a little bitand unpack for you, because I
follow the books, I bought thebooks and I talk about the
levels of trust, but across oursociety there is a low level of
(13:46):
trust, I mean, and we'restruggling as a society with
trusting that people will dowhat they said they're going to
do and follow throughconsistently, versus just on a
good day.
How do we close this gap that'sshowing up where people don't
trust their bosses and theirbosses don't trust their workers
?
Speaker 3 (14:03):
and their bosses don't trust their workers.
You know, I believe, if youknow the PR firm Edelman, the
Edelman Trust Barometer comesout once a year and I think the
one that came out in Januarysuggested and don't quote me on
this that trust in leaders islike lower than it's been in a
really long time.
Leaders, of organizations versusknow and things like that, uh,
(14:27):
which is unfortunate because thepandemic actually taught us a
lot about trust.
So let me just talk aboutstephen m r covey for a moment,
who, again, is the world'sexpert in trust, wrote the book
speed of trust, um, and a dearfriend of mine, uh, when he
would speak prior to thepandemic, or I or anybody that
(14:51):
worked with that body of work,we would beg people to see trust
as a currency, as thefoundation that you can't do
anything without trust.
That people would think trustwas a soft, fluffy thing.
He would put a slide up thatwas like a kitten.
That's like this is what youthink of you know, a cute kitten
(15:11):
and this is what you think ofit.
But it is a hard currency andthe pandemic taught us that
because when everybody went homewhatever if you were a low
trust organization and peoplewere working remote and all of
that their organizations fellapart.
Those that had high trust bondsand connections between them
(15:32):
did really well.
Unfortunately, we seem to be ata place again with as low trust
out there, for whatever reason,and it is the leaders of the
organizations that need to leadout on.
How do they behave in ways thatshow trust, talking straight,
(15:55):
they're demonstrating respect,they are transparent, they're
confronting reality, they'relistening first, they're
practicing accountability.
These are some of the behaviorsthat go with it.
It can be tangible and it's themost important, I think,
differentiator in organizations.
When people are able to say yes, I feel trusted.
(16:17):
And I'll just say one clue thatone thing that leaders could do
with their people, whetherthey're remote or in the office,
is declare their intent,because there's so many
assumptions flying out there andwhen somebody says, well, what
do they really mean in thatmeeting?
Speaker 1 (16:35):
Well, what are they?
Speaker 3 (16:35):
really trying to tell me.
That means that leaders aren'tbeing clear and they're not
declaring.
Let me tell you why we'rehaving this meeting.
Let me tell you why we'rehaving this conversation so
people stop freaking out so long.
Answer to your short question.
Trust is foundational intoday's world around agility,
around all of the changes we'regoing through, whether economic,
(16:58):
whether technological whateverout there today.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
I love your long answer, so I'm going to keep my
question short, because thepurpose of this podcast is the
more I get you talking, the morevalue it adds.
So I don't want to be the, soplease continue with the long
answers.
I love it.
I want to unpack a little bit.
So what organizations?
Being that?
We know that the numbers arecoming out and then there's a,
there's a low level of trust.
You know that we assume is andwe're reading.
(17:26):
What have you learned in thebody of work that you do within
the Colby firm?
How do people rebuild trustwhen they have violated it?
As a leader, if I'm in anorganization and I've done
something that I've lost thetrust of my team, do you have
steps to help people close thatgap?
Speaker 3 (17:48):
Yes, a lot of steps, but what we're talking about is
restoring and extending trust.
So as part of it, I mean thereal pillars of the workaround
with Speed of Trust is buildingtrust, extending trust and
restoring trust.
So, and we have what we callthe four.
So I'll start with the fourcores of credibility.
(18:10):
So the four cores ofcredibility really is sort of
the inside-out approach that weall should be asking ourselves
Am I being seen by others assomebody with high integrity?
Is my intent really clear?
Am I being seen as capable anddo I have a track record of
results?
So those are the four cores ofcredibility that, before I open
(18:31):
my mouth in a conversation withsomebody, is this how these
people see me?
Because if they don't, if theydon't see me as somebody with
high integrity, I need to workon that.
I need to be self-aware enoughto work on that.
The point I was just trying tomake before intent If my intent
is not clear and that could beaccidental, right, I'm
(18:52):
accidentally creatingcircumstances with people like
what did she mean?
Or she has a mad face on today.
What's going on?
When I concentrate, my facelooks mad to people.
So they're looking at me they'relike what's up with her today?
You know kind of thing, and Ihave to like talk to my face and
I need to be clear no, no, I'mworking on something.
This is not about you.
(19:12):
I might not have capability insomething, that I'm trying to be
the smartest person in the room, and that's not good either.
So these four cores ofcredibility everybody in an
organization should be workingon Am I seen as somebody with
high integrity?
Is my intent really clear?
Am I seen as capable in the jobI'm supposed to be doing, and
do I have track record resultsto stand behind it, both for
(19:33):
past performance, presentperformance and to be able to
predict my future performance aswell?
So there's that as the base.
The next piece of it to yourquestion.
So if I'm working on buildingmy credibility, people can look
at oh boy, corrie, you knowshe's credible, you know, but
(19:55):
she doesn't trust me, or I don'tknow if he trusts me.
Well then we need to restoretrust and possibly extend trust.
And with extend trust, whichpeople like?
Well, it's really hard.
You know, they disappointed mein the past.
I don't want to delegatesomething to them, but with
extend trust Stephen calls itsmart trust, extending smart
trust.
You know we don't want toextend trust blindly, like, well
(20:16):
, you know, just whatever.
And we don't want to, you know,not trust them at all.
But how do we have theconversation, using what we call
13 behaviors of high trust, tosay, hey, let me declare my
intent, I want to be able toextend trust with you.
Here's what that.
Here's the situation, here'swhat it looks like.
I'm going to confront thereality of what went wrong
(20:38):
before and we'll practiceaccountability together to try
it again.
So leaders need to go first inextending trust, not holding
grudges on things that maybethey got disappointed on in the
past.
The other thing is restoringtrust.
So, you know, maybe somebodylost trust in me and what am I
(21:12):
going to do using the 13behaviors of high trust?
You asked about the tools I'mgoing to work on.
You know my cards on the table,as we say, the behavior cards
on the table, and I'm going to,you know, apologize, I'm going
to demonstrate respect around it.
I'm going to ask you know howwe can together, how I can fix
it, how we can work together andpractice the accountability of
checking in.
(21:32):
You know I want to check inwith you, ron, make sure that
you feel like I'm on the righttrack and then go on from there.
So I'm going to proactivelyrestore trust.
So build, extend, restore trustare key things that leaders
should go first on, and thetools are in the workshop.
To you know, be able to helppeople use their trust cards and
(21:53):
their trust behaviors.
To you know, to extend andrestore trust.
It's the most important thingin the world today.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
I'm telling you you did a phenomenal job.
I'm like wow, she's justwalking through it and you can
tell not only is this somethingthat's regurgitated, it's
something you believe, it'sshowing up automatically in the
conversation.
So when you think about I meanyou've used it a couple of times
on here, corey, and you talkedabout confronting reality you
don't want to make people angry,you don't want to lose the
(22:22):
workforce.
When people will say people aretoo sensitive and I can't talk
about that, what does that looklike?
I love the 13 rules of how doyou restore and deal with trust
that no leaders go first?
How do you confront reality?
What does that look like Forsomeone that's listening?
They hear you, but how do youpractice it?
How do you live it?
Speaker 3 (22:41):
Well, it has to be consistent and we say, you know,
and that sort of is veryclosely aligned to transparency.
So a lot of times people willsay to me well, corey, you know
I can't tell them everythingabout the company, you know
whatever.
And so what we talk about alsois being transparent about what
you can't be transparent about.
So when I say to my teams,listen, I can't tell you right
(23:05):
now, they're like okay, I got itBecause my or our credibility
is really high and they know I'mtransparent, confronting
reality.
A lot of times and it goes backto the expect a lot, care a lot
as well.
Things aren't going right.
We need to confront the realityof it.
(23:26):
The behavior of demonstratingrespect is really important and
building your trust accountswith your teams to be able to
confront reality.
If you have nothing in thetrust account and you're like,
hey, ron, you really blew that,that's a problem.
But when you come out, whetherit's giving feedback and in our
(23:49):
feedback, it's like what?
So what now?
What, what is it?
How is it affecting things?
So what Now?
How can we work together tomove it forward?
You know that kind of thing.
You need to have a culture ofthis kind of feedback where you
are confronting reality.
And I will personally say, ron,I am well known for confronting
(24:10):
reality and the way you knowit's working is when people say
to you you know we reallyappreciate you.
I'm known as being very direct,and they will say you know we
really appreciate you.
I'm known as being very direct,and they will say you know we
really appreciate you.
You'll always tell us whereyou're at, we always know the
score with you and we reallyappreciate that, because
otherwise people walk oneggshells.
(24:30):
But I have to work really hardat authentically building
relationships with people,thinking about how do I approach
this situation.
You know, delicately butputting it on the table, that
this is where it's at and you'llfind, even if it's painful in
the moment, when done well,people really see that as a sign
(24:53):
of trust and Corey's willing totell me what's right and what's
wrong and not forget thepositive feedback side of it as
well.
So it can't always beconfronting reality about bad
stuff.
Confront the reality of thegood stuff that's going on and
don't forget that you know aswell.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
Awesome, I love it.
I mean, we have some things incommon there, Corey.
So you know, I tell people, Isay I'm pretty transparent.
I tell them I'm two thingscandid and transparent, you know
.
So I have to figure out how to,how to?
You mentioned earlier I have towork on my smile, because my
face will look like I'm angry.
I'm like, oh, put the smileback on.
I'm a veteran as well, so I'mtaught how to be very stoic.
But but you mentioned OK, soyou're extending it.
(25:33):
You're candid, You'retransparent.
You know you'll give directfeedback.
What's the role?
Speaker 3 (25:45):
of making sure that when people have to give you
feedback, what do leaders needto do to make sure that they
give permission to get whatthey're given?
And again, in our new work onthe six-world practices we
really are, which is a six-worldpractice, leading a team.
So in our section on feedback,there one of the things you know
we'll talk about is make sureyou give you know, positive
feedback.
The second one is these arethis is not the right exact
(26:09):
title make it, take it.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (26:12):
So, really, how do I absorb, you know, what does it
feel like for to take, you know,feedback?
And it's really important forleaders to get good at it.
And I'm not it's not my bestskill, just by the way because I
know some people will call me asubject matter expert.
I call me a laboratory rat.
(26:33):
You know, I live this every day, I practice this every day.
I I'm not.
I will never get up in front ofa keynote with 10,000 people
and say I'm perfect.
You know I'm like no, I, I'mblessed for having these
conversations because I get tolearn and practice these skills.
I, you know I have to count to10 when I get constructive
(26:55):
feedback.
I've gotten much better, youknow, over the years and stuff
like that, but it's still noteasy and people should, you know
, accept that like oh yeah, well, great, it's hard, but when we
learn to like let me just countto 10 and let my amygdala, you
(27:15):
know, calm down and think aboutit and sleep on it and I'm like
you know that was the rightfeedback.
It is important for leaders topractice receiving free feedback
and knowing what it feels liketo get through that defense
mechanism, count to 10, and beable to again say oh, you know,
gosh, ron, you know, thank youfor that.
How is that showing up?
How is that affecting thingsout there?
(27:37):
You know.
So I know what to fit.
You know how to not only fixthe behavior but fix whatever
damage I've done, and then to beable to say again okay, so now
I'm going to practice this.
You know I'm going to work onthis moving forward.
Would you mind checking in?
You know, can I check in withyou in a couple of weeks and see
if you're detecting anything?
And again there's this.
(27:58):
You know our process.
It's the what, now what, sowhat?
And so this way, leaders aresensitized to receiving feedback
.
The team starts to trust thatleader that they can have these
conversations, because I'm sureevery listener has been in a
place like oh no, which one ofus?
(28:19):
is going to tell them oh no,we're not going to do that and
nobody says anything and that'snot healthy.
So that's a major advantagewhen you create a culture where
people are at both positivefeedback and learning how to
take feedback, because I like itwhen you know one of the team
(28:39):
members says, corey, boy, youreally handled that meeting so
well.
Thanks so much.
Like us, we're human, we needsome of that too.
So they'll do some positive butalso say, corey, can we talk
about how you handled thatmeeting?
You know I have some feedbackfor you on how you handled blah
(29:01):
and I'm like sure.
So when they feel comfortabledoing that, that's an amazing
culture that you have.
The final piece of that.
You've now created a placewhere your team is open to
hearing your constructivefeedback as well.
Now, by doing those things,going first again, we've created
a culture and they are trustingand is accepting of the
(29:23):
feedback that I have for them,positive and constructive.
We got to get to results.
If it's not happening, you know, hey, let's talk about you know
some of the roadblocks I'mseeing on the project you're
working on with that.
Do you have some time and againdescribing it, describing how
it's impacting the work andsetting up some accountability
(29:44):
for how we're going to check in.
So that's how you create aculture of feedback.
Leaders need to go first.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
I love it.
I love it.
Let me unpack a little bit foryou.
I mean, you're giving a ton ofinformation.
I know they're taking notes.
You're walking through stepsand you'll be able to go back
and listen to this recordingover and over again and listen
to what corey is sharing, givingfeedback, what I found that for
me personally, if my leadercared enough about me, I hope
they would give me feedback.
How does care connect withfeedback?
Speaker 3 (30:14):
Well, if you said, hey, give me feedback, and I'm
like, yeah, you really sucked atthat project, that's not with a
lot of care.
Yes, the care is understandingthat even when somebody says,
hey, do you have some feedbackfor me?
That even though there'scourage in saying, do you have
some feedback for me?
A, don't forget that maybepositive feedback would be
(30:36):
helpful.
You know around it.
But also just remembering,don't just say, boy, you really
did a terrible job on thatproject.
I hope you get better.
But and that's why we have astructure to say, listen, you're
doing great.
And I know people do the givepositive, negative.
I mean there's all kinds ofways to do it.
People do the give positive,negative.
I mean there's all kinds ofways to do it, but you want to
(30:58):
do it authentically, no matterwhat.
But I care about how somebodyfeels and no matter how
courageous you are in saying canyou give me some feedback on
the project?
What went well and what didn't?
All right, here's what wentwell, here's why it went well,
not just saying, hey, you did areally good job on the project,
because that's you need morehere's.
(31:19):
Do you want a couple ofexamples?
Yeah, on the project at thisparticular fit, you know
whatever you know.
So details, don't leave them atgood job.
The other thing is, when you'resaying here's some constructive
feedback, I always say you'vegot to pause, you've got to.
Like Ron, you know you didn'thandle the conversation with
(31:42):
Mary in a way that made her feelyou know okay, and here's, you
know, let me, let me.
Let me give you an example.
You have to pause.
You can't just keep rambling on.
If you care about the person,you're going to stop because, no
, even though we're expecting it, our brains are going to go
into defensive mode.
(32:03):
99% of the time there might beone person out there that's like
, oh yeah, okay, got it, that'sgreat.
I'm not that person, so, butit's not all about me.
But you got that pause whenyou're giving feedback and let
somebody just digest it and like, just get over that, and then
(32:25):
to say, okay, ron, we good, youready to continue?
Yes, questions for me, you knowkind of thing.
That's how you show you care,making sure you have a couple of
examples and then togethersaying how what you and this
goes into coach, feedback andcoaching is so closely related.
(32:46):
It's caring, is not.
You might think it's caring indisguise.
Caring is not saying so.
Here's how I think you shouldfix it.
Caring is seeing the potentialin the other person and going
back to value and trust andsaying, okay, so that's the
situation, you've done 100projects really well, so
acknowledge past successes iswhat I think is incredibly
(33:08):
important.
If somebody is feeling almostlike ashamed, like oh gosh, I
did that poorly and it's likeyou've done this.
You know many things like thisvery.
You know well what.
What do you think we can do, orto to do it differently next
time, and let you do the work offiguring out what the solution
is that's caring.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
I love it.
I love it.
Let me flip to the other sideof it.
So we're talking to leaders.
What do you tell the youngleader that wants to get better
side of it.
So we're talking to leaders.
What do you tell the youngleader that wants to get better?
How to seek out and receivefeedback without taking it
personal?
How do you prep the person thathas to receive it?
And the boss may do everythingright, just as you're saying,
but this person is veryself-critical.
(33:50):
No matter how much you tellthem they've done well, they're
still going to go in thisinternal destructive process and
say you're not happy.
How do you prep people to firstask for it and see?
Speaker 3 (34:02):
feedback as a gift and get prepared not to take it
personally.
Well, I think, again, doingsome of the work around, you
know what we said.
I mean, you can only tell ortry to bring somebody around so
many times.
So if there's somebody that isjust stuck on it and is self
totally over, self-deprecating,and you know, and, and, and, and
there were maybe there were twothings that I that I heard in
(34:23):
there that somebody that, nomatter what you say, they still
think they're bad at it, is thatwhat you were?
Speaker 2 (34:31):
sort of saying, very self-critical and
they're-critical and they're notgetting over.
Speaker 3 (34:36):
It May not be your best candidate as a leader,
because at some point there'sonly so much you can do and then
it becomes an energy sucker.
So I don't want to go intopsychology here, but now you're
talking to somebody Like we'vehad this conversation five times
.
You're doing great at this.
(34:57):
I've given you you feedback onthat.
We have the steps in place toimprove.
What more?
How, how else do you think Ican help you and put it back on
them?
Yes, and if they don't have ananswer and it's just a chronic
condition, then then you have to.
That's what I'm saying,sometimes tough love yes play as
well, but doing the work, doingthe practice, like I said
(35:21):
before, with the generalpopulation of leaders on.
Let's practice takingconstructive feedback, and
that's what we do in our courses.
Let's role play this thing, youknow, let's how does it feel
and getting a hold of that andlearning to be very self-aware
and proactive, not react, notnot reacting to it, counting to
10, saying you know what.
(35:43):
I really appreciate thefeedback, let me sleep on it and
can I?
Can I, can I set some time withyou tomorrow to continue the
conversation, cause, honestly, Ijust need to process.
That's good too.
And so, practicing doing some ofthat and sensitizing ourselves
as leaders so that we're notdefensive and we learn how to be
(36:03):
proactive to fix things.
You know, ok, I got it.
Here's some things I think Ican do to fix that.
You know, let me you know, ifyou don't mind, I want to check
in with you, see how I'm doingand we'll get better.
I want to check in with you,see how I'm doing and we'll get
better.
That's sensitizing ourselves toit, so we get better at it and,
like I said, I am not great atit, but I get better and better.
(36:24):
The person who doesn't get overit, you might need to move them
on.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
Yeah, I mean and thank you for the transparency
and I love that because I thinkon the podcast we're always
pretty transparent and openabout.
You know perspectives, as youhave done well.
You're in a senior role, youknow with your organization and
(36:53):
you've had to take the journey.
How important did mentors andadvocates play in your career
journey?
And so for those young leadersthat are listening that
oftentimes want to go solo andgo by themselves and figure it
out the hard way, how importantdid mentors and advocates and
sponsors play in youradvancement in your career?
Speaker 3 (37:06):
You know, I was very lucky with the mentors that I
had and I was never in anorganization where there was a
mentorship program that I hadand I was never in an
organization where there was amentorship program that I had a
mentor.
It was all organic.
You know, through through mylife I was lucky enough to have
some leaders um, from CEOs toVPs to directors that were
(37:33):
terrific to work, to work for.
I've had a couple you know that.
You know we all talk about thatyou would never want to work
for.
I've had a couple that we alltalk about, that you would never
want to work for that person,but they were really important
in giving me feedback.
I remember one CEO, a reallyinfluential person in my life in
my previous company, franklinCovey, early on, but he me and
(37:59):
I'll give you two examples withthis one CEO and then the other
CEO.
He accused me.
He said you know, we've talkedabout this, maybe it's the Peter
principle in place, maybeyou've just gone as far as you
can go and that's it.
Well, that made me just crazyand I'm like well, I'm going to
(38:23):
show you.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
It's like getting promoted past your potential
Like this is it for you?
Your train stop is right here,right.
Speaker 3 (38:28):
Right, and he was a great mentor and I remember we
would sit down every week I mean, we had our weekly meeting but
he was always always mentoring,always coaching, not telling me
what to do, but coaching,encouraging me.
And then I remember he left.
I actually took on his role allin good faith with everybody
(38:52):
the CEO of the company he wasactually the president of the
company, so CEO is when I becamethe EVP of worldwide operations
for the company, so reportingto the CEO, and he would give me
a year's notice where he'd say,okay, corey, this year I don't
(39:12):
have a financial background.
I didn't go to, I didn't knowwhat a P and L was when I, you
know, was in my early now, now Ido, you know kind of thing.
And my older sister is a CFO.
I remember when I went to workfor my previous company, you
know as a young kid, I calledher up and I said L, can you
tell me what a balance sheet is?
Can you tell me?
You know, I, I didn't know anyand my family is full of
(39:35):
accountants, but not me.
But he said to me you have ayear, I want you to learn
everything you can about runninga finance department, wow.
And he sent me out there and Iremember going at the time
Barnes and Noble and I and I'm alifelong learner.
I don't have a lot of schooling, but I'm a lifelong learner,
always learning, and I learnedeverything.
(40:02):
And I teach business acumenclasses.
You know, you know now and havedeveloped them and all of that,
but I learned everything aboutit.
And the key to leadership isyou don't have to be the
technical expert.
But I knew enough that a yearafter that he put the finance
department under me, in additionto the marketing department,
the training department andother departments as well.
And that's just two examples.
I've had some amazing mentorsand it's really important for
(40:23):
people to find them.
Stephen Covey would say and I'mbutchering this, but the idea
of it takes somebody to see theworth and potential in somebody
else.
And these people saw eventhough he accused me you know
Richard, accused me of, you know, peter Principle he did that
(40:44):
for a reason because he knew itwould challenge me, and they saw
worth and potential in me tohelp me grow.
And it's really.
We're moving so fast in theworld.
I beg leaders to slow down andsee people as people and see
what they have to offer Not thisjob they're doing, but and I
(41:05):
say this to brand new leadersyou might be promoted off of a
team that you've been workingwith for a couple of years and
think you know them because yousee their work.
Speaker 1 (41:15):
You don't know them.
Speaker 3 (41:17):
Sit down and have a conversation with them and learn
about their strengths and theirconcerns and their talents and
their hobbies, to see what theyreally bring to the table, what
is their worth and potentialthat you have the opportunity to
work with in your new role, andsenior leaders should do the
same.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
I love it.
You know, as a veteran, one ofthe things that we were trained
early on is you got to know yourpeople, and it was not the job
they do for you, but know themas a human being.
You couldn't lead if you didn'tknow that, and I think that
part of it was so vital to me,taking the time and pausing long
enough to see you pass theproduct or service you can
deliver, and so I would tellleaders that are listening do
(41:53):
you really know your people?
What do they dream, what dothey want a year or 10 years
from now, and what can you dofor them that they can't do for
themselves?
And that, for me, was how Ialways lean into mentoring is
what can I do for you?
You know, corey, that you can'tdo for yourself.
I got to open up that door, Igot to introduce that to you.
I got to expose you to this,you know.
(42:14):
So here's my final question foryou what do you wish you had
been exposed to as a youngleader?
That would have served you welltoday.
Speaker 3 (42:23):
It's a very good question.
Obviously, people can tellthese were not prepared
questions.
Because you're really making methink about it.
Speaker 2 (42:30):
We're just having a coffee talk.
Speaker 3 (42:32):
Yes, you know I'm not sure I have a good.
I'll tell you one answer thisis not, it's not what you want,
but I'll tell you my weaknessout there.
But again, growing up, you know, when I started it wasn't as
important as it is now.
I never learned how to do Excelreally well.
(42:52):
Yeah, I know that's not theanswer.
You probably want some peopleoriented answer, but I never
learned how to use Excel and Idid find that through my career,
to be now with AI.
You know it could be easy, youknow I've got it democratizes
Excel for me a little bit, butbut I didn't learn that.
(43:13):
And through my career as I wasgetting hired organizations, I
didn't learn that.
And through my career as I wasgetting hired organizations, you
know, and back in the day wehad more assistance, real human
assistance and stuff like that,to do stuff like that, and I
never really mastered it.
And I can master anything I putmy mind to, but I never really
wanted to, honestly.
But that was a bit of a alongthe way, not being able to whip
(43:35):
out some of the analysis on myphone.
I wish I had done a better jobof that back in the day.
Speaker 2 (43:42):
I mean phenomenal.
Yes, I mean, because it's notalways the people.
Part of it's a technical piecetoo.
What do you wish, as a leader,you had gotten exposed to more
so you could leverage it more inyour career.
And I tell people all the timethere's just different things
that you wish you had beenexposed to a lot more of.
I think for me.
I was a decent writer, but Irealized at some point in my
(44:05):
career that I had to make itbetter, and it came from me not
producing a product that I wasembarrassed about when it got
highlighted publicly.
I'm like that'll never happento me again.
So I wish someone had put alittle bit more pressure on how
important it was for me to beable to articulate myself in
writing as well as I couldverbally.
Speaker 3 (44:22):
Yeah, oh, great, great and they're both equally
important.
Speaker 2 (44:26):
As a leader, that you got to be able to write just as
well as you speak and when youshow up in rooms.
I think those things are, asyou're looking at, some of the
young leaders that are out there.
If you're really good atsomething, where's the area?
Speaker 3 (44:41):
and I don't use weakness, but where's the area
for opportunity for you to bebetter?
Yes, I, I, that's that's theright word.
It's.
It's not a weakness.
You haven't your strengths andeverybody knows trends, find and
stuff like that, and it's likeyou know those trends are.
What else can we strengthenversus?
You know, I can.
That's what I'm saying.
I mean even today, because somepeople are like, well, go do an
excel thing.
Speaker 2 (44:56):
I could, um, but it would have been easier if it was
more native to me from earlierin my life yes, yes, and I think
for for me as well, and itstill resonates today I wish I
was exposed to more than my zipcode.
You know where I got outside ofjust my community or my school
(45:17):
or my race or my gender or mybackground or what my parents
did.
I think, just exposed becausewe're a global economy now, how
much it would have benefited meas a leader to understand all
those different things insociety, to be more effective at
leading them and caring aboutthem and taking care of them.
Because I had a limited view ofthe world, I wish I had been
exposed to more of the worldthan just my zip code.
Speaker 3 (45:37):
You know.
Just to comment on that, I gotlucky with that too, because I
was born and raised in New York.
I was there until I was 19.
And then life circumstance Ileft.
I went up to the Pocono.
I didn't want to, since I'mlike five I knew I didn't want
to really be in New York and myfamily's still there.
But I was in the PoconoMountains and then my work
pulled me to Indianapolis andthen to Tucson, which is where I
(45:57):
lived and ended up working forinternational companies.
But I got.
When I went to Indianapolis itwas for personal reasons and it
was completely different thanthe life I'd had in New York.
And I always look at that and Igo.
I'm really grateful thatstarted that because just my
family in New York it was verycloistered growing up in
(46:17):
Brooklyn, new York, in aparticular neighborhood, and I
thought, knowing my family theretoo at the time, um it just I
hear you.
I'm just I hear you on whatyou're saying.
If people do have theopportunity to just open up to
outside things and not get stuckin a box, it's you don't know
(46:41):
what you don't know.
Speaker 1 (46:43):
Right, you, you you.
Speaker 3 (46:45):
You form opinions and have ideas and they're fine,
but it would be great in theworld we're living in, it would
be great too If you just openedup and saw more, heard more.
It helps you be better.
Speaker 2 (47:00):
Absolutely yeah, and that's what I share with people.
Well, you've been phenomenal.
I mean, I definitely will keepyour information because I would
love to in several months asyou continue to do the work
within the organization.
You guys are doing a phenomenaljob.
I use your content of materialsand I'm reading and studying.
As a leader, I say who's doingit better than me?
Let me go look at them.
What are they doing?
What are they talking about?
(47:21):
And I use your book.
I mean, I literally buildaround.
You know the five levels oftrust and how trust is, and what
do you do?
And people always say well, ron, do you really ask to look?
As a leader, you don't have anoption.
You got to trust.
You can't even get your jobdone if you don't trust people.
Well, why do I have to?
I say, if you want to besuccessful, you got it, and so I
would love to bring you back onand talk about how do leaders
(47:41):
do that effectively, because Ihave a lot of people that
struggle with it.
Is there anything that wehaven't discussed that you want
to share?
You said, ron, this is reallyimportant.
I think it'd be great forleaders.
Is there anything that comes tomind that bubbles to the top
that you want to share before wewrap up.
Speaker 3 (47:55):
I think that you know when you say bubble up in the
final thing, even and again, ournew upgrade to the six-quartile
practices that'll be out in anumber of months, you know the
final.
We moved the sixth practice toleverage one-on-ones to win.
And I would say to leadersthere's some organizations like,
no, we don't do one-on-ones, wejust think fine.
There's some organizations like, no, we don't do one-on-ones,
(48:15):
we just think fine, theone-on-one, everything we've
talked about today, even withtrust, if you're not holding
one-on-ones in a mutual sharedaccountability kind of way,
you're missing a realopportunity.
Having a cadence of connectionis so important.
We learned that in the pandemictoo.
It's a.
(48:35):
It's a, you know, primal needto connect with people.
And so just spending time withsomebody and doing some of these
things, setting it, you knowwhat are the being clear both on
expectations.
What do we need coaching on?
Do either one of us needfeedback?
How about our energy levels?
Are we burning out?
Are we?
You know what's going on?
And just having everything wetalked about here coalesce into
(49:00):
what's needed in a one-on-one towork on is really a way to
retain great people and makethem feel really engaged and
ready to go back out there anddo the work.
So that's I'd say, don't leavethat out and don't be canceling
them.
If you are out there, you know,holding your head down now
because you're like, oh gosh, Ikeep canceling them.
(49:21):
The worst thing, the worst thingyou can do, because, even if
people don't consciously feel it, it's like OK, they don't
really care about me, they keepcanceling my one.
Speaker 2 (49:28):
Yes, yes, that's the message it sends.
So I know you mentioned acouple of times you guys have
new products and stuff comingout.
Is there anything that you know, as people are listening, you
know that you know the FranklinCubby will be releasing soon,
that people need to payattention to Anything you can
share with us coming out.
Speaker 3 (49:42):
Yeah, well, and thank you so much for asking.
I will say we just released ourupdated.
I know sometimes these are thebest kept secrets.
We have some really terrificand well great uptake on our
sales training called HelpingClients Succeed.
So, helping Clients Succeedit's very much built from the
customer's point of view, thebuyer's point of view, not the
(50:04):
seller's point of view.
That is just released inmultiple modalities along with a
sales leadership piece to it aswell for sales leaders.
So that, just re-released, theSix Girl Practices will be out
in a few months.
And when you were talking aboutwriting, I know that a lot of
people are using AI to write,and we do too.
But our new Writing for Resultscourse again, a lot of the
(50:28):
younger generations just how doI even set something up, even
for AI to be able to prompt itin the right way?
So that is coming out over thenext couple of months.
And those people that arediehard Seven Habits people we
just released Seven Habits 5.0.
So, again, those are timelessprinciples that are pointed at
(50:50):
today's issues and that's beenwildly popular again.
So it continues to be over time.
So those are some of the thingsthat are happening in the
moment.
Speaker 2 (51:01):
Thank you.
You've been a phenomenal guest.
I mean, you know organizationand you guys have been tested
and proven over and over againto add value to organizations
and people in leadership roles.
Thank you for all that.
You do Love to have you back onthe show.
If you're ever in SouthCarolina, please let me know so
we can, we can, we can find away to get you on someone's
stage and add value to ourcommunity thank you, you're very
.
Speaker 3 (51:21):
What am I?
What am I?
Just moved to south carolinabecause she just wanted to be
there.
So, hey, ron, you're great,your questions are terrific.
So I really appreciate the timeand thanks everybody for
listening awesome, thank you.
Speaker 2 (51:31):
What's the best way to reach you if someone wants to
reach out to you?
Speaker 3 (51:34):
uh linkedin is uh great.
So k-o-r-y-k-o-g-o-n?
Uh linkedin is great and, uh,you know, you can always go to
our website, wwwfrankencoveycomand see a lot of stuff there, uh
, including myself.
So thank you for asking awesome.
Speaker 2 (51:50):
Thank you for being with us and for all you that
hung out with us today.
Thank you, share the podcast,share the link.
If you know some phenomenalguests, that adds value to our
community.
That that's what this is reallyall about Just having a real
honest, down to earthconversation.
Send them to us.
We'll be happy to talk to themand see if it's a good fit for
us.
But until next time, corey andI will sign off and tell you to
have a phenomenal day and thanky'all for joining us today.
(52:11):
Y'all have a great one.
Speaker 1 (52:13):
Well, we hope you enjoyed this edition of Unpacked
Podcast with leadershipconsultant Ron Harvey.
Remember to join us everyMonday as Ron unpacks sound
advice, providing real answersfor real leadership challenges.
Until next time, remember toadd value and make a difference
where you are, for the peopleyou serve, because people always
(52:37):
matter.
Welcome to Unpacked Podcast with your host
leadership consultant, ronHarvey of GlobalCore Strategies
and Consulting.
Ron believes that leadership isthe fundamental driver towards
making a difference.
So now to find out more of whatit means to unpack leadership,
here's your host, ron Harvey.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Good afternoon everyone.
This is Ron Harvey, the vicepresident, the chief operating
officer for Global CoreStrategies and Consulting.
Back with you again for anotheranother episode of Unpacked
with Ron Harvey, where we inviteguests from around the world to
talk about real leadershipexperiences and some of the
challenges and things that we'relearning in our own
professional careers or exposureand experiences.
So I'm always excited to beable to bring something to you
(00:43):
that will make a difference inyour role and responsibilities
as a leader.
So excited to have Corrie withus and you know I always invite
our guests to do theirintroduction for two reasons I
don't mess it up and who knowshow to talk better about
themselves than the personthemselves?
So I'm going to invite Corrieand hand her a microphone and
get out of her way and let herintroduce herself.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
So I'm going to invite Cori and hand her the
microphone and get out of herway and let her introduce
herself.
Thanks, ron, and helloeverybody.
So I'm Cori Kogan.
I serve currently as the vicepresident of content development
for FranklinCovey, one of thelargest leadership companies in
the world, and I live in Tucson,arizona.
I was originally born andraised in New York.
Originally born and raised inNew York, so I am blessed to be
(01:30):
able to work with people andteams around the world, around
their leadership, productivity,things like that.
I have a very strong businessbackground, formerly an EVP of
Worldwide Operations for aglobal franchise organization,
so I get to bring the best ofreal life business to the
principles of FranklinCovey tohelp teams and organizations
everywhere.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Thank you, corey.
I mean thank you for being here, Thank you for taking the time
out and sharing a little bitabout who you are and, as
everybody knows, as we do thepodcast, we will promise you
we'll talk about leadership, butI would love for us to, at the
end of the day, as we go throughthe conversation, I always I'm
pretty transparent about whatI've done well, what I haven't
done well, but you're in one ofthe largest organizations that
(02:11):
spend a lot of time inleadership development.
Let's dive in a little bit.
What are you noticing the shift?
The pendulum is swinging andshifting with five to six
generations in the workforce.
What are some of the thingsthat you're recognizing in the
work that you do with so manypeople across the globe around?
Speaker 3 (02:28):
leadership.
Well, you know I considermyself a young baby boomer.
Well, I am a young baby boomeras it is.
So I, you know I come from thatperspective and you know this
gift of my working with peopleall the time.
I remain open-minded to all ofthe shifts and changes and how I
can be better at, you know,with whether it's my age or my
(02:51):
style or whatever it might bedesire to be developed, to move
up faster, to take on more andmore responsibility when given
the opportunity and I know noteverybody feels that way about
(03:15):
some of the younger generations,but that's what I've seen that
if given half a chance and giventhe roadway to do it, they will
develop.
So I find that when they'relooking for who they should work
for, they're going to look foran organization where
development is part of it,whether it's for their current
job, for a future job withintheir company or even being
(03:40):
developed for their career, tobe able to move on to the next
thing.
Because I think we've all knownthis has been out there for a
while People aren't staying atorganizations as long as they
used to.
Not everybody's staying for 10,15 years anymore.
It's become the norm stay for acouple of years and move on,
and those organizations that arereally working with their
(04:01):
people to help with that as anassumption of where people are
going to be attracted to go to.
I think the other thing is just, you know, the shift in
technology and technology useand as the younger generations
are coming up and are native tonot only digital, but now the
(04:21):
need for AI skills and peoplecoming in with AI skills and
some organizations requiring it,I think that's a giant shift
that we have to be thinkingabout as well.
So those are a couple of onesat least, as the newer
generations are coming into theworkplace.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Wow, corey.
I mean you brought a lot tounpack which is really
intriguing and interesting,especially from the organization
that you're in, you know andthe work and the people you get
exposure to.
I want to unpack a little bitabout.
So what we're tellingorganizations, based on your
conversation here, is how do wehelp organizations be prepared
that you're not going to havesomeone 10 to 15 years anymore
(04:57):
and you're going to have someonethat's looking for development
more than it used to be money?
I think money is relevant, butit's not the most important
thing from my exposure andexperience.
How do you help organizationalleaders be prepared for that
without being frustrated aboutit?
Speaker 3 (05:11):
Well, it's a mindset change, you know, because
everybody wants it.
I mean there's a talent war inthe biggest way it's ever been.
We're not having babies the waywe used to.
You know it's flatlined inpopulation.
So we like to say thatretention is the new recruitment
.
So business unit leaders, ceos,everybody in organizations
(05:35):
really need to do the best jobto retain their people as long
as they can.
So it's not a given that peopleare going to leave in a couple
of years.
But leaders should be strivingto figure out methods and ways
that people think twice beforeleaving.
And I just want to make a pointabout the money.
(05:55):
People will leave for money.
If they are not appreciated ordon't feel like they have a
purpose in an organization, itbecomes the only currency for
them to.
You know to well, I'm going togo to that company because
they're going to pay me more andmy boss doesn't even know I
exist here, they'll go.
But when somebody in anorganization feels wanted and
(06:18):
trusted and valued and they seehow what they do connects to the
you know the mission and thevision of the organization A lot
of times, not to say they won'tleave for money, but, to your
point, it becomes a lot harderto say, hey, that other company.
It's a substantial raise, but Idon't know.
(06:38):
I don't know if it's worth itto not have the kind of culture
that we, you know that we havehere.
So there you go yes, have you?
Speaker 2 (06:46):
have you found on your career in in the work?
And it's changing fast.
Have you found how doorganizations pay more attention
to the, the upward mobility?
Because you know people getquestions.
They want a corner office, theywant vp, they want um a lot
faster than we did.
We were taught to stay 30 yearsor 40 years and just wait your
turn.
That's not the generation,that's not even the mindset
(07:08):
today.
Wait your turn because there'ssome really young people that
are really good and and thereare some people that are, you
know, more seasoned, that havekind of had their best years
already and don't pass the batonfast enough.
How do you balance that out?
Don't don't promote faster thanyou should, but don't hold on
longer than you should that out.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
Don't promote faster than you should, but don't hold
on longer than you should.
Well listen, I'm a baby boomer.
Should I get out?
I'm not ready to get out, I'mnot ready to go anywhere yet.
I'm just being candid with you.
And so there might be people inthe organization like
(08:03):
no-transcript.
It means what I said before.
Some people will be developedand take those skills to another
company and speak nicely aboutthe company they came from,
which is, you know, reallyhelpful too.
So there's no magic bullet tothat.
But the fact that somebodyfeels like somebody cares about
(08:28):
helping them grow is more andmore important.
And I got to tell you andpeople that know me, I am very
candid, very honest and I'll putthe mirror up any time of day.
I could be one, and I was.
I've been in executiveleadership for many, many years.
I have to work at it every,every day.
But I could be one of thosepeople that says you know, just
do your job.
(08:48):
It's so much easier to be a badleader.
It's just like just do what Itell you, just do your job and
leave me alone, right, kind ofthing.
But of course that's not goingto win you any points and it's
not the right thing to do,principally and I'm a principled
person.
And but when somebody feels likeyou're paying attention to them
, even though there may not beopportunity right now, or they
(09:09):
are in a small organization whenthey feel that I'm interested
in their growth and helping themdevelop, while also, by the way
, getting results.
I don't want to forget theresult side.
This is not all about beingnice and helping people.
You got to do the job, you gotto get results.
So there's this balance therearound it.
(09:30):
But as long as people feel thatway, then if there's an
opportunity, they know you'retrying and there's agreement too
.
Listen, if there's notsomething here, you know I get
it.
You know we're getting youready for the next thing in your
life.
That will create stickiness too, where they may stay longer and
(09:52):
you know to see if it plays outin their favor and maybe it
won't.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Wow, I love the approach that you're taking.
You mentioned I want to unpacka little bit.
You know about holding peopleaccountable while at the same
time being kind.
I guess is the way I would sayit, and some people struggle at
that.
How do you make sure that youdo hold people, because results
are important, but it's not justresults that are important.
There's more to the workforce.
(10:18):
Today We've got to be prettyagile as leaders.
Can you speak to how agile wehave to be and what does that
look like today versus when youand I may have become in our
first role of leadership?
It's changed drastically.
Speaker 3 (10:29):
We are spending a lot of time.
I'm in the middle of a body, ofre-releasing a body of work, or
what we call the six criticalpractices of leading a team,
where we actually spent a littlemore time on it.
Because you know the world ofleadership has swung and we know
.
You know it's not just aboutgetting results If that's all
(10:53):
you're interested in, you knowbut leaving bodies along the way
to get some short-term results,you're going to lose your
people and that's notsustainable.
You're going to get theshort-term results, but what
does that mean for a year or twofrom now?
So we know that that doesn'twork.
Stephen M R Covey, who is, youknow our trust.
You know the world's expert intrust in his work around trust
(11:16):
and inspire calls it.
You know command and control totrust and inspire.
So you can't just go forresults.
On the other hand, I and we atFranklin Covey have seen over
the years it's swing a littletoo far to.
Your team needs to be engagedand they need to be happy and
(11:38):
we've got to be concerned abouttheir wellbeing.
All of that is true, but therehas to be a balance.
We want people engaged and wesay the height of that is true,
but there has to be a balance.
We want people engaged and wesay the height of engagement is
what we call creative excitement.
They're creative excitement,they want to show up, they want
to innovate, whatever great, andare you getting results from
them?
Because you can have themengaged.
(12:00):
But if they're not getting theresults?
And so we, in our new body ofwork, we, we say that a leader
needs to have the mindset of ifI expect a lot, I, I need to
care a lot so that we setexpectations and you know that
we realize we have we got.
We have expectations, we havestretch goals.
(12:21):
We have a big mission, bigvision.
There's a lot going on in theworld, but if I'm going to get
there sustainably, to achievesustainable results, then I need
to care a lot about my people.
And if you think about thedifferences, I can expect a lot
and not care, and we're back toshort term results.
I can care a lot and not expecta lot, and I'm now a people
(12:43):
pleaser, which doesn't work.
I can be neither of those.
I don't expect a lot, I don'tcare a lot, and you're sort of
an absentee leader.
So we say great leaders are theones that expect a lot and care
a lot.
So we get this balance of we'renot developing leaders to
create a bunch of happy people.
(13:03):
We want them to be happy people, we want them to be happy, we
want them to well be being.
By the end of the day, acompany is in business to
achieve a result, whether you'rea non-profit, government or
corporate.
So that's that's the new,that's that's how everybody
should be going into it, withthe outcome sustained
performance over time.
(13:23):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
I mean, I love that you're pointing out, for
everyone that's listening withthe outcome sustained
performance over time andretention.
I love it.
I mean.
I love that you're pointing outfor everyone that's listening
like your new recruitment isretention.
I mean yeah.
I mean.
So I love that you're sayingthat.
I want to lean in a little bitand unpack for you, because I
follow the books, I bought thebooks and I talk about the
levels of trust, but across oursociety there is a low level of
(13:46):
trust, I mean, and we'restruggling as a society with
trusting that people will dowhat they said they're going to
do and follow throughconsistently, versus just on a
good day.
How do we close this gap that'sshowing up where people don't
trust their bosses and theirbosses don't trust their workers
?
Speaker 3 (14:03):
and their bosses don't trust their workers.
You know, I believe, if youknow the PR firm Edelman, the
Edelman Trust Barometer comesout once a year and I think the
one that came out in Januarysuggested and don't quote me on
this that trust in leaders islike lower than it's been in a
really long time.
Leaders, of organizations versusknow and things like that, uh,
(14:27):
which is unfortunate because thepandemic actually taught us a
lot about trust.
So let me just talk aboutstephen m r covey for a moment,
who, again, is the world'sexpert in trust, wrote the book
speed of trust, um, and a dearfriend of mine, uh, when he
would speak prior to thepandemic, or I or anybody that
(14:51):
worked with that body of work,we would beg people to see trust
as a currency, as thefoundation that you can't do
anything without trust.
That people would think trustwas a soft, fluffy thing.
He would put a slide up thatwas like a kitten.
That's like this is what youthink of you know, a cute kitten
(15:11):
and this is what you think ofit.
But it is a hard currency andthe pandemic taught us that
because when everybody went homewhatever if you were a low
trust organization and peoplewere working remote and all of
that their organizations fellapart.
Those that had high trust bondsand connections between them
(15:32):
did really well.
Unfortunately, we seem to be ata place again with as low trust
out there, for whatever reason,and it is the leaders of the
organizations that need to leadout on.
How do they behave in ways thatshow trust, talking straight,
(15:55):
they're demonstrating respect,they are transparent, they're
confronting reality, they'relistening first, they're
practicing accountability.
These are some of the behaviorsthat go with it.
It can be tangible and it's themost important, I think,
differentiator in organizations.
When people are able to say yes, I feel trusted.
(16:17):
And I'll just say one clue thatone thing that leaders could do
with their people, whetherthey're remote or in the office,
is declare their intent,because there's so many
assumptions flying out there andwhen somebody says, well, what
do they really mean in thatmeeting?
Speaker 1 (16:35):
Well, what are they?
Speaker 3 (16:35):
really trying to tell me.
That means that leaders aren'tbeing clear and they're not
declaring.
Let me tell you why we'rehaving this meeting.
Let me tell you why we'rehaving this conversation so
people stop freaking out so long.
Answer to your short question.
Trust is foundational intoday's world around agility,
around all of the changes we'regoing through, whether economic,
(16:58):
whether technological whateverout there today.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
I love your long answer, so I'm going to keep my
question short, because thepurpose of this podcast is the
more I get you talking, the morevalue it adds.
So I don't want to be the, soplease continue with the long
answers.
I love it.
I want to unpack a little bit.
So what organizations?
Being that?
We know that the numbers arecoming out and then there's a,
there's a low level of trust.
You know that we assume is andwe're reading.
(17:26):
What have you learned in thebody of work that you do within
the Colby firm?
How do people rebuild trustwhen they have violated it?
As a leader, if I'm in anorganization and I've done
something that I've lost thetrust of my team, do you have
steps to help people close thatgap?
Speaker 3 (17:48):
Yes, a lot of steps, but what we're talking about is
restoring and extending trust.
So as part of it, I mean thereal pillars of the workaround
with Speed of Trust is buildingtrust, extending trust and
restoring trust.
So, and we have what we callthe four.
So I'll start with the fourcores of credibility.
(18:10):
So the four cores ofcredibility really is sort of
the inside-out approach that weall should be asking ourselves
Am I being seen by others assomebody with high integrity?
Is my intent really clear?
Am I being seen as capable anddo I have a track record of
results?
So those are the four cores ofcredibility that, before I open
(18:31):
my mouth in a conversation withsomebody, is this how these
people see me?
Because if they don't, if theydon't see me as somebody with
high integrity, I need to workon that.
I need to be self-aware enoughto work on that.
The point I was just trying tomake before intent If my intent
is not clear and that could beaccidental, right, I'm
(18:52):
accidentally creatingcircumstances with people like
what did she mean?
Or she has a mad face on today.
What's going on?
When I concentrate, my facelooks mad to people.
So they're looking at me they'relike what's up with her today?
You know kind of thing, and Ihave to like talk to my face and
I need to be clear no, no, I'mworking on something.
This is not about you.
(19:12):
I might not have capability insomething, that I'm trying to be
the smartest person in the room, and that's not good either.
So these four cores ofcredibility everybody in an
organization should be workingon Am I seen as somebody with
high integrity?
Is my intent really clear?
Am I seen as capable in the jobI'm supposed to be doing, and
do I have track record resultsto stand behind it, both for
(19:33):
past performance, presentperformance and to be able to
predict my future performance aswell?
So there's that as the base.
The next piece of it to yourquestion.
So if I'm working on buildingmy credibility, people can look
at oh boy, corrie, you knowshe's credible, you know, but
(19:55):
she doesn't trust me, or I don'tknow if he trusts me.
Well then we need to restoretrust and possibly extend trust.
And with extend trust, whichpeople like?
Well, it's really hard.
You know, they disappointed mein the past.
I don't want to delegatesomething to them, but with
extend trust Stephen calls itsmart trust, extending smart
trust.
You know we don't want toextend trust blindly, like, well
(20:16):
, you know, just whatever.
And we don't want to, you know,not trust them at all.
But how do we have theconversation, using what we call
13 behaviors of high trust, tosay, hey, let me declare my
intent, I want to be able toextend trust with you.
Here's what that.
Here's the situation, here'swhat it looks like.
I'm going to confront thereality of what went wrong
(20:38):
before and we'll practiceaccountability together to try
it again.
So leaders need to go first inextending trust, not holding
grudges on things that maybethey got disappointed on in the
past.
The other thing is restoringtrust.
So, you know, maybe somebodylost trust in me and what am I
(21:12):
going to do using the 13behaviors of high trust?
You asked about the tools I'mgoing to work on.
You know my cards on the table,as we say, the behavior cards
on the table, and I'm going to,you know, apologize, I'm going
to demonstrate respect around it.
I'm going to ask you know howwe can together, how I can fix
it, how we can work together andpractice the accountability of
checking in.
(21:32):
You know I want to check inwith you, ron, make sure that
you feel like I'm on the righttrack and then go on from there.
So I'm going to proactivelyrestore trust.
So build, extend, restore trustare key things that leaders
should go first on, and thetools are in the workshop.
To you know, be able to helppeople use their trust cards and
(21:53):
their trust behaviors.
To you know, to extend andrestore trust.
It's the most important thingin the world today.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
I'm telling you you did a phenomenal job.
I'm like wow, she's justwalking through it and you can
tell not only is this somethingthat's regurgitated, it's
something you believe, it'sshowing up automatically in the
conversation.
So when you think about I meanyou've used it a couple of times
on here, corey, and you talkedabout confronting reality you
don't want to make people angry,you don't want to lose the
(22:22):
workforce.
When people will say people aretoo sensitive and I can't talk
about that, what does that looklike?
I love the 13 rules of how doyou restore and deal with trust
that no leaders go first?
How do you confront reality?
What does that look like Forsomeone that's listening?
They hear you, but how do youpractice it?
How do you live it?
Speaker 3 (22:41):
Well, it has to be consistent and we say, you know,
and that sort of is veryclosely aligned to transparency.
So a lot of times people willsay to me well, corey, you know
I can't tell them everythingabout the company, you know
whatever.
And so what we talk about alsois being transparent about what
you can't be transparent about.
So when I say to my teams,listen, I can't tell you right
(23:05):
now, they're like okay, I got itBecause my or our credibility
is really high and they know I'mtransparent, confronting
reality.
A lot of times and it goes backto the expect a lot, care a lot
as well.
Things aren't going right.
We need to confront the realityof it.
(23:26):
The behavior of demonstratingrespect is really important and
building your trust accountswith your teams to be able to
confront reality.
If you have nothing in thetrust account and you're like,
hey, ron, you really blew that,that's a problem.
But when you come out, whetherit's giving feedback and in our
(23:49):
feedback, it's like what?
So what now?
What, what is it?
How is it affecting things?
So what Now?
How can we work together tomove it forward?
You know that kind of thing.
You need to have a culture ofthis kind of feedback where you
are confronting reality.
And I will personally say, ron,I am well known for confronting
(24:10):
reality and the way you knowit's working is when people say
to you you know we reallyappreciate you.
I'm known as being very direct,and they will say you know we
really appreciate you.
I'm known as being very direct,and they will say you know we
really appreciate you.
You'll always tell us whereyou're at, we always know the
score with you and we reallyappreciate that, because
otherwise people walk oneggshells.
(24:30):
But I have to work really hardat authentically building
relationships with people,thinking about how do I approach
this situation.
You know, delicately butputting it on the table, that
this is where it's at and you'llfind, even if it's painful in
the moment, when done well,people really see that as a sign
(24:53):
of trust and Corey's willing totell me what's right and what's
wrong and not forget thepositive feedback side of it as
well.
So it can't always beconfronting reality about bad
stuff.
Confront the reality of thegood stuff that's going on and
don't forget that you know aswell.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
Awesome, I love it.
I mean, we have some things incommon there, Corey.
So you know, I tell people, Isay I'm pretty transparent.
I tell them I'm two thingscandid and transparent, you know
.
So I have to figure out how to,how to?
You mentioned earlier I have towork on my smile, because my
face will look like I'm angry.
I'm like, oh, put the smileback on.
I'm a veteran as well, so I'mtaught how to be very stoic.
But but you mentioned OK, soyou're extending it.
(25:33):
You're candid, You'retransparent.
You know you'll give directfeedback.
What's the role?
Speaker 3 (25:45):
of making sure that when people have to give you
feedback, what do leaders needto do to make sure that they
give permission to get whatthey're given?
And again, in our new work onthe six-world practices we
really are, which is a six-worldpractice, leading a team.
So in our section on feedback,there one of the things you know
we'll talk about is make sureyou give you know, positive
feedback.
The second one is these arethis is not the right exact
(26:09):
title make it, take it.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (26:12):
So, really, how do I absorb, you know, what does it
feel like for to take, you know,feedback?
And it's really important forleaders to get good at it.
And I'm not it's not my bestskill, just by the way because I
know some people will call me asubject matter expert.
I call me a laboratory rat.
(26:33):
You know, I live this every day, I practice this every day.
I I'm not.
I will never get up in front ofa keynote with 10,000 people
and say I'm perfect.
You know I'm like no, I, I'mblessed for having these
conversations because I get tolearn and practice these skills.
I, you know I have to count to10 when I get constructive
(26:55):
feedback.
I've gotten much better, youknow, over the years and stuff
like that, but it's still noteasy and people should, you know
, accept that like oh yeah, well, great, it's hard, but when we
learn to like let me just countto 10 and let my amygdala, you
(27:15):
know, calm down and think aboutit and sleep on it and I'm like
you know that was the rightfeedback.
It is important for leaders topractice receiving free feedback
and knowing what it feels liketo get through that defense
mechanism, count to 10, and beable to again say oh, you know,
gosh, ron, you know, thank youfor that.
How is that showing up?
How is that affecting thingsout there?
(27:37):
You know.
So I know what to fit.
You know how to not only fixthe behavior but fix whatever
damage I've done, and then to beable to say again okay, so now
I'm going to practice this.
You know I'm going to work onthis moving forward.
Would you mind checking in?
You know, can I check in withyou in a couple of weeks and see
if you're detecting anything?
And again there's this.
(27:58):
You know our process.
It's the what, now what, sowhat?
And so this way, leaders aresensitized to receiving feedback
.
The team starts to trust thatleader that they can have these
conversations, because I'm sureevery listener has been in a
place like oh no, which one ofus?
(28:19):
is going to tell them oh no,we're not going to do that and
nobody says anything and that'snot healthy.
So that's a major advantagewhen you create a culture where
people are at both positivefeedback and learning how to
take feedback, because I like itwhen you know one of the team
(28:39):
members says, corey, boy, youreally handled that meeting so
well.
Thanks so much.
Like us, we're human, we needsome of that too.
So they'll do some positive butalso say, corey, can we talk
about how you handled thatmeeting?
You know I have some feedbackfor you on how you handled blah
(29:01):
and I'm like sure.
So when they feel comfortabledoing that, that's an amazing
culture that you have.
The final piece of that.
You've now created a placewhere your team is open to
hearing your constructivefeedback as well.
Now, by doing those things,going first again, we've created
a culture and they are trustingand is accepting of the
(29:23):
feedback that I have for them,positive and constructive.
We got to get to results.
If it's not happening, you know, hey, let's talk about you know
some of the roadblocks I'mseeing on the project you're
working on with that.
Do you have some time and againdescribing it, describing how
it's impacting the work andsetting up some accountability
(29:44):
for how we're going to check in.
So that's how you create aculture of feedback.
Leaders need to go first.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
I love it.
I love it.
Let me unpack a little bit foryou.
I mean, you're giving a ton ofinformation.
I know they're taking notes.
You're walking through stepsand you'll be able to go back
and listen to this recordingover and over again and listen
to what corey is sharing, givingfeedback, what I found that for
me personally, if my leadercared enough about me, I hope
they would give me feedback.
How does care connect withfeedback?
Speaker 3 (30:14):
Well, if you said, hey, give me feedback, and I'm
like, yeah, you really sucked atthat project, that's not with a
lot of care.
Yes, the care is understandingthat even when somebody says,
hey, do you have some feedbackfor me?
That even though there'scourage in saying, do you have
some feedback for me?
A, don't forget that maybepositive feedback would be
(30:36):
helpful.
You know around it.
But also just remembering,don't just say, boy, you really
did a terrible job on thatproject.
I hope you get better.
But and that's why we have astructure to say, listen, you're
doing great.
And I know people do the givepositive, negative.
I mean there's all kinds ofways to do it.
People do the give positive,negative.
I mean there's all kinds ofways to do it, but you want to
(30:58):
do it authentically, no matterwhat.
But I care about how somebodyfeels and no matter how
courageous you are in saying canyou give me some feedback on
the project?
What went well and what didn't?
All right, here's what wentwell, here's why it went well,
not just saying, hey, you did areally good job on the project,
because that's you need morehere's.
(31:19):
Do you want a couple ofexamples?
Yeah, on the project at thisparticular fit, you know
whatever you know.
So details, don't leave them atgood job.
The other thing is, when you'resaying here's some constructive
feedback, I always say you'vegot to pause, you've got to.
Like Ron, you know you didn'thandle the conversation with
(31:42):
Mary in a way that made her feelyou know okay, and here's, you
know, let me, let me.
Let me give you an example.
You have to pause.
You can't just keep rambling on.
If you care about the person,you're going to stop because, no
, even though we're expecting it, our brains are going to go
into defensive mode.
(32:03):
99% of the time there might beone person out there that's like
, oh yeah, okay, got it, that'sgreat.
I'm not that person, so, butit's not all about me.
But you got that pause whenyou're giving feedback and let
somebody just digest it and like, just get over that, and then
(32:25):
to say, okay, ron, we good, youready to continue?
Yes, questions for me, you knowkind of thing.
That's how you show you care,making sure you have a couple of
examples and then togethersaying how what you and this
goes into coach, feedback andcoaching is so closely related.
(32:46):
It's caring, is not.
You might think it's caring indisguise.
Caring is not saying so.
Here's how I think you shouldfix it.
Caring is seeing the potentialin the other person and going
back to value and trust andsaying, okay, so that's the
situation, you've done 100projects really well, so
acknowledge past successes iswhat I think is incredibly
(33:08):
important.
If somebody is feeling almostlike ashamed, like oh gosh, I
did that poorly and it's likeyou've done this.
You know many things like thisvery.
You know well what.
What do you think we can do, orto to do it differently next
time, and let you do the work offiguring out what the solution
is that's caring.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
I love it.
I love it.
Let me flip to the other sideof it.
So we're talking to leaders.
What do you tell the youngleader that wants to get better
side of it.
So we're talking to leaders.
What do you tell the youngleader that wants to get better?
How to seek out and receivefeedback without taking it
personal?
How do you prep the person thathas to receive it?
And the boss may do everythingright, just as you're saying,
but this person is veryself-critical.
(33:50):
No matter how much you tellthem they've done well, they're
still going to go in thisinternal destructive process and
say you're not happy.
How do you prep people to firstask for it and see?
Speaker 3 (34:02):
feedback as a gift and get prepared not to take it
personally.
Well, I think, again, doingsome of the work around, you
know what we said.
I mean, you can only tell ortry to bring somebody around so
many times.
So if there's somebody that isjust stuck on it and is self
totally over, self-deprecating,and you know, and, and, and, and
there were maybe there were twothings that I that I heard in
(34:23):
there that somebody that, nomatter what you say, they still
think they're bad at it, is thatwhat you were?
Speaker 2 (34:31):
sort of saying, very self-critical and
they're-critical and they're notgetting over.
Speaker 3 (34:36):
It May not be your best candidate as a leader,
because at some point there'sonly so much you can do and then
it becomes an energy sucker.
So I don't want to go intopsychology here, but now you're
talking to somebody Like we'vehad this conversation five times
.
You're doing great at this.
(34:57):
I've given you you feedback onthat.
We have the steps in place toimprove.
What more?
How, how else do you think Ican help you and put it back on
them?
Yes, and if they don't have ananswer and it's just a chronic
condition, then then you have to.
That's what I'm saying,sometimes tough love yes play as
well, but doing the work, doingthe practice, like I said
(35:21):
before, with the generalpopulation of leaders on.
Let's practice takingconstructive feedback, and
that's what we do in our courses.
Let's role play this thing, youknow, let's how does it feel
and getting a hold of that andlearning to be very self-aware
and proactive, not react, notnot reacting to it, counting to
10, saying you know what.
(35:43):
I really appreciate thefeedback, let me sleep on it and
can I?
Can I, can I set some time withyou tomorrow to continue the
conversation, cause, honestly, Ijust need to process.
That's good too.
And so, practicing doing some ofthat and sensitizing ourselves
as leaders so that we're notdefensive and we learn how to be
(36:03):
proactive to fix things.
You know, ok, I got it.
Here's some things I think Ican do to fix that.
You know, let me you know, ifyou don't mind, I want to check
in with you, see how I'm doingand we'll get better.
I want to check in with you,see how I'm doing and we'll get
better.
That's sensitizing ourselves toit, so we get better at it and,
like I said, I am not great atit, but I get better and better.
(36:24):
The person who doesn't get overit, you might need to move them
on.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
Yeah, I mean and thank you for the transparency
and I love that because I thinkon the podcast we're always
pretty transparent and openabout.
You know perspectives, as youhave done well.
You're in a senior role, youknow with your organization and
(36:53):
you've had to take the journey.
How important did mentors andadvocates play in your career
journey?
And so for those young leadersthat are listening that
oftentimes want to go solo andgo by themselves and figure it
out the hard way, how importantdid mentors and advocates and
sponsors play in youradvancement in your career?
Speaker 3 (37:06):
You know, I was very lucky with the mentors that I
had and I was never in anorganization where there was a
mentorship program that I hadand I was never in an
organization where there was amentorship program that I had a
mentor.
It was all organic.
You know, through through mylife I was lucky enough to have
some leaders um, from CEOs toVPs to directors that were
(37:33):
terrific to work, to work for.
I've had a couple you know that.
You know we all talk about thatyou would never want to work
for.
I've had a couple that we alltalk about, that you would never
want to work for that person,but they were really important
in giving me feedback.
I remember one CEO, a reallyinfluential person in my life in
my previous company, franklinCovey, early on, but he me and
(37:59):
I'll give you two examples withthis one CEO and then the other
CEO.
He accused me.
He said you know, we've talkedabout this, maybe it's the Peter
principle in place, maybeyou've just gone as far as you
can go and that's it.
Well, that made me just crazyand I'm like well, I'm going to
(38:23):
show you.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
It's like getting promoted past your potential
Like this is it for you?
Your train stop is right here,right.
Speaker 3 (38:28):
Right, and he was a great mentor and I remember we
would sit down every week I mean, we had our weekly meeting but
he was always always mentoring,always coaching, not telling me
what to do, but coaching,encouraging me.
And then I remember he left.
I actually took on his role allin good faith with everybody
(38:52):
the CEO of the company he wasactually the president of the
company, so CEO is when I becamethe EVP of worldwide operations
for the company, so reportingto the CEO, and he would give me
a year's notice where he'd say,okay, corey, this year I don't
(39:12):
have a financial background.
I didn't go to, I didn't knowwhat a P and L was when I, you
know, was in my early now, now Ido, you know kind of thing.
And my older sister is a CFO.
I remember when I went to workfor my previous company, you
know as a young kid, I calledher up and I said L, can you
tell me what a balance sheet is?
Can you tell me?
You know, I, I didn't know anyand my family is full of
(39:35):
accountants, but not me.
But he said to me you have ayear, I want you to learn
everything you can about runninga finance department, wow.
And he sent me out there and Iremember going at the time
Barnes and Noble and I and I'm alifelong learner.
I don't have a lot of schooling, but I'm a lifelong learner,
always learning, and I learnedeverything.
(40:02):
And I teach business acumenclasses.
You know, you know now and havedeveloped them and all of that,
but I learned everything aboutit.
And the key to leadership isyou don't have to be the
technical expert.
But I knew enough that a yearafter that he put the finance
department under me, in additionto the marketing department,
the training department andother departments as well.
And that's just two examples.
I've had some amazing mentorsand it's really important for
(40:23):
people to find them.
Stephen Covey would say and I'mbutchering this, but the idea
of it takes somebody to see theworth and potential in somebody
else.
And these people saw eventhough he accused me you know
Richard, accused me of, you know, peter Principle he did that
(40:44):
for a reason because he knew itwould challenge me, and they saw
worth and potential in me tohelp me grow.
And it's really.
We're moving so fast in theworld.
I beg leaders to slow down andsee people as people and see
what they have to offer Not thisjob they're doing, but and I
(41:05):
say this to brand new leadersyou might be promoted off of a
team that you've been workingwith for a couple of years and
think you know them because yousee their work.
Speaker 1 (41:15):
You don't know them.
Speaker 3 (41:17):
Sit down and have a conversation with them and learn
about their strengths and theirconcerns and their talents and
their hobbies, to see what theyreally bring to the table, what
is their worth and potentialthat you have the opportunity to
work with in your new role, andsenior leaders should do the
same.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
I love it.
You know, as a veteran, one ofthe things that we were trained
early on is you got to know yourpeople, and it was not the job
they do for you, but know themas a human being.
You couldn't lead if you didn'tknow that, and I think that
part of it was so vital to me,taking the time and pausing long
enough to see you pass theproduct or service you can
deliver, and so I would tellleaders that are listening do
(41:53):
you really know your people?
What do they dream, what dothey want a year or 10 years
from now, and what can you dofor them that they can't do for
themselves?
And that, for me, was how Ialways lean into mentoring is
what can I do for you?
You know, corey, that you can'tdo for yourself.
I got to open up that door, Igot to introduce that to you.
I got to expose you to this,you know.
(42:14):
So here's my final question foryou what do you wish you had
been exposed to as a youngleader?
That would have served you welltoday.
Speaker 3 (42:23):
It's a very good question.
Obviously, people can tellthese were not prepared
questions.
Because you're really making methink about it.
Speaker 2 (42:30):
We're just having a coffee talk.
Speaker 3 (42:32):
Yes, you know I'm not sure I have a good.
I'll tell you one answer thisis not, it's not what you want,
but I'll tell you my weaknessout there.
But again, growing up, you know, when I started it wasn't as
important as it is now.
I never learned how to do Excelreally well.
(42:52):
Yeah, I know that's not theanswer.
You probably want some peopleoriented answer, but I never
learned how to use Excel and Idid find that through my career,
to be now with AI.
You know it could be easy, youknow I've got it democratizes
Excel for me a little bit, butbut I didn't learn that.
(43:13):
And through my career as I wasgetting hired organizations, I
didn't learn that.
And through my career as I wasgetting hired organizations, you
know, and back in the day wehad more assistance, real human
assistance and stuff like that,to do stuff like that, and I
never really mastered it.
And I can master anything I putmy mind to, but I never really
wanted to, honestly.
But that was a bit of a alongthe way, not being able to whip
(43:35):
out some of the analysis on myphone.
I wish I had done a better jobof that back in the day.
Speaker 2 (43:42):
I mean phenomenal.
Yes, I mean, because it's notalways the people.
Part of it's a technical piecetoo.
What do you wish, as a leader,you had gotten exposed to more
so you could leverage it more inyour career.
And I tell people all the timethere's just different things
that you wish you had beenexposed to a lot more of.
I think for me.
I was a decent writer, but Irealized at some point in my
(44:05):
career that I had to make itbetter, and it came from me not
producing a product that I wasembarrassed about when it got
highlighted publicly.
I'm like that'll never happento me again.
So I wish someone had put alittle bit more pressure on how
important it was for me to beable to articulate myself in
writing as well as I couldverbally.
Speaker 3 (44:22):
Yeah, oh, great, great and they're both equally
important.
Speaker 2 (44:26):
As a leader, that you got to be able to write just as
well as you speak and when youshow up in rooms.
I think those things are, asyou're looking at, some of the
young leaders that are out there.
If you're really good atsomething, where's the area?
Speaker 3 (44:41):
and I don't use weakness, but where's the area
for opportunity for you to bebetter?
Yes, I, I, that's that's theright word.
It's.
It's not a weakness.
You haven't your strengths andeverybody knows trends, find and
stuff like that, and it's likeyou know those trends are.
What else can we strengthenversus?
You know, I can.
That's what I'm saying.
I mean even today, because somepeople are like, well, go do an
excel thing.
Speaker 2 (44:56):
I could, um, but it would have been easier if it was
more native to me from earlierin my life yes, yes, and I think
for for me as well, and itstill resonates today I wish I
was exposed to more than my zipcode.
You know where I got outside ofjust my community or my school
(45:17):
or my race or my gender or mybackground or what my parents
did.
I think, just exposed becausewe're a global economy now, how
much it would have benefited meas a leader to understand all
those different things insociety, to be more effective at
leading them and caring aboutthem and taking care of them.
Because I had a limited view ofthe world, I wish I had been
exposed to more of the worldthan just my zip code.
Speaker 3 (45:37):
You know.
Just to comment on that, I gotlucky with that too, because I
was born and raised in New York.
I was there until I was 19.
And then life circumstance Ileft.
I went up to the Pocono.
I didn't want to, since I'mlike five I knew I didn't want
to really be in New York and myfamily's still there.
But I was in the PoconoMountains and then my work
pulled me to Indianapolis andthen to Tucson, which is where I
(45:57):
lived and ended up working forinternational companies.
But I got.
When I went to Indianapolis itwas for personal reasons and it
was completely different thanthe life I'd had in New York.
And I always look at that and Igo.
I'm really grateful thatstarted that because just my
family in New York it was verycloistered growing up in
(46:17):
Brooklyn, new York, in aparticular neighborhood, and I
thought, knowing my family theretoo at the time, um it just I
hear you.
I'm just I hear you on whatyou're saying.
If people do have theopportunity to just open up to
outside things and not get stuckin a box, it's you don't know
(46:41):
what you don't know.
Speaker 1 (46:43):
Right, you, you you.
Speaker 3 (46:45):
You form opinions and have ideas and they're fine,
but it would be great in theworld we're living in, it would
be great too If you just openedup and saw more, heard more.
It helps you be better.
Speaker 2 (47:00):
Absolutely yeah, and that's what I share with people.
Well, you've been phenomenal.
I mean, I definitely will keepyour information because I would
love to in several months asyou continue to do the work
within the organization.
You guys are doing a phenomenaljob.
I use your content of materialsand I'm reading and studying.
As a leader, I say who's doingit better than me?
Let me go look at them.
What are they doing?
What are they talking about?
(47:21):
And I use your book.
I mean, I literally buildaround.
You know the five levels oftrust and how trust is, and what
do you do?
And people always say well, ron, do you really ask to look?
As a leader, you don't have anoption.
You got to trust.
You can't even get your jobdone if you don't trust people.
Well, why do I have to?
I say, if you want to besuccessful, you got it, and so I
would love to bring you back onand talk about how do leaders
(47:41):
do that effectively, because Ihave a lot of people that
struggle with it.
Is there anything that wehaven't discussed that you want
to share?
You said, ron, this is reallyimportant.
I think it'd be great forleaders.
Is there anything that comes tomind that bubbles to the top
that you want to share before wewrap up.
Speaker 3 (47:55):
I think that you know when you say bubble up in the
final thing, even and again, ournew upgrade to the six-quartile
practices that'll be out in anumber of months, you know the
final.
We moved the sixth practice toleverage one-on-ones to win.
And I would say to leadersthere's some organizations like,
no, we don't do one-on-ones, wejust think fine.
There's some organizations like, no, we don't do one-on-ones,
(48:15):
we just think fine, theone-on-one, everything we've
talked about today, even withtrust, if you're not holding
one-on-ones in a mutual sharedaccountability kind of way,
you're missing a realopportunity.
Having a cadence of connectionis so important.
We learned that in the pandemictoo.
It's a.
(48:35):
It's a, you know, primal needto connect with people.
And so just spending time withsomebody and doing some of these
things, setting it, you knowwhat are the being clear both on
expectations.
What do we need coaching on?
Do either one of us needfeedback?
How about our energy levels?
Are we burning out?
Are we?
You know what's going on?
And just having everything wetalked about here coalesce into
(49:00):
what's needed in a one-on-one towork on is really a way to
retain great people and makethem feel really engaged and
ready to go back out there anddo the work.
So that's I'd say, don't leavethat out and don't be canceling
them.
If you are out there, you know,holding your head down now
because you're like, oh gosh, Ikeep canceling them.
(49:21):
The worst thing, the worst thingyou can do, because, even if
people don't consciously feel it, it's like OK, they don't
really care about me, they keepcanceling my one.
Speaker 2 (49:28):
Yes, yes, that's the message it sends.
So I know you mentioned acouple of times you guys have
new products and stuff comingout.
Is there anything that you know, as people are listening, you
know that you know the FranklinCubby will be releasing soon,
that people need to payattention to Anything you can
share with us coming out.
Speaker 3 (49:42):
Yeah, well, and thank you so much for asking.
I will say we just released ourupdated.
I know sometimes these are thebest kept secrets.
We have some really terrificand well great uptake on our
sales training called HelpingClients Succeed.
So, helping Clients Succeedit's very much built from the
customer's point of view, thebuyer's point of view, not the
(50:04):
seller's point of view.
That is just released inmultiple modalities along with a
sales leadership piece to it aswell for sales leaders.
So that, just re-released, theSix Girl Practices will be out
in a few months.
And when you were talking aboutwriting, I know that a lot of
people are using AI to write,and we do too.
But our new Writing for Resultscourse again, a lot of the
(50:28):
younger generations just how doI even set something up, even
for AI to be able to prompt itin the right way?
So that is coming out over thenext couple of months.
And those people that arediehard Seven Habits people we
just released Seven Habits 5.0.
So, again, those are timelessprinciples that are pointed at
(50:50):
today's issues and that's beenwildly popular again.
So it continues to be over time.
So those are some of the thingsthat are happening in the
moment.
Speaker 2 (51:01):
Thank you.
You've been a phenomenal guest.
I mean, you know organizationand you guys have been tested
and proven over and over againto add value to organizations
and people in leadership roles.
Thank you for all that.
You do Love to have you back onthe show.
If you're ever in SouthCarolina, please let me know so
we can, we can, we can find away to get you on someone's
stage and add value to ourcommunity thank you, you're very
.
Speaker 3 (51:21):
What am I?
What am I?
Just moved to south carolinabecause she just wanted to be
there.
So, hey, ron, you're great,your questions are terrific.
So I really appreciate the timeand thanks everybody for
listening awesome, thank you.
Speaker 2 (51:31):
What's the best way to reach you if someone wants to
reach out to you?
Speaker 3 (51:34):
uh linkedin is uh great.
So k-o-r-y-k-o-g-o-n?
Uh linkedin is great and, uh,you know, you can always go to
our website, wwwfrankencoveycomand see a lot of stuff there, uh
, including myself.
So thank you for asking awesome.
Speaker 2 (51:50):
Thank you for being with us and for all you that
hung out with us today.
Thank you, share the podcast,share the link.
If you know some phenomenalguests, that adds value to our
community.
That that's what this is reallyall about Just having a real
honest, down to earthconversation.
Send them to us.
We'll be happy to talk to themand see if it's a good fit for
us.
But until next time, corey andI will sign off and tell you to
have a phenomenal day and thanky'all for joining us today.
(52:11):
Y'all have a great one.
Speaker 1 (52:13):
Well, we hope you enjoyed this edition of Unpacked
Podcast with leadershipconsultant Ron Harvey.
Remember to join us everyMonday as Ron unpacks sound
advice, providing real answersfor real leadership challenges.
Until next time, remember toadd value and make a difference
where you are, for the peopleyou serve, because people always
(52:37):
matter.
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