March 3, 2025 • 49 mins
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Just Make A Difference: Leading Under Pressure by Ron Harvey
“If you don’t have something to measure your growth, you won’t be self-aware or intentional about your growth.”
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The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the speakers and guests and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any organization or entity. The information provided in this podcast is intended for educational and informational purposes only and should not be considered as professional advice. Listeners should consult with their own professional advisors before implementing any suggestions or recommendations made in this podcast. The speakers and guests are not responsible for any actions taken by listeners based on the information presented in this podcast. The podcast is not intended to be a substitute for professional advice or services. The speakers and guests make no representations or warranties of any kind, express or implied, about the completeness, accuracy, reliability, suitability or availability with respect to the information, products, services, or related graphics contained in this ...
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to Turning Point Leadership Podcast with
your host, ron Harvey of GlobalCore Strategies and Consulting.
Ron's delighted you joined usand excited to discuss and help
you navigate your journeytowards becoming an effective
leader.
During this podcast, ron willshare his core belief that
effective leadership is one ofthe key drivers towards change.
So together let's grow asleaders.
(00:25):
Here's Ron Harvey.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Good morning.
This is Ron Harvey.
I'm the vice president and thechief operating officer for
Global Core Strategies andConsulting, and we're based out
of Columbia, South Carolina.
We run a leadership developmentfirm, and I say we my wife and
I started the company For all ofyou that's been following us
for a while and you know that wedo one thing really, really
well and that's helping leadersbe better connected to their
workforce.
So we spend all of our time andthere are multiple ways to do
(00:51):
that, but we pause every singleweek and we release a podcast,
and today I'm super excited I'venever had this dynamic on the
podcast before to have a motherand daughter trio that's doing
the work that we do in differentlocations.
So I'm super excited that weget to cooperate and collaborate
about what we're doing in thechallenges.
I understand it as husband andwife, but I don't have my son in
(01:11):
the business or my daughter inthe business, so they'll share
some things from a women'sperspective and from a family
dynamic duo that's doing greatwork.
So I'm going to pause, hand themicrophone to them and let them
introduce themselves, and thenwe'll get started.
So let me hand it over to youand, if you want to kick us off.
That'd be great.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Sure, I'll kick us off.
I'm Dr Andrea Natsaris and I'mlocated in Toronto, canada, and
the focus of my work has alwaysbeen, as it has been, within
Caliber Leadership Systems, thebusiness that Heather and I
founded together on helpingleaders and individuals achieve
their potential through systems,through understanding
themselves, the person who isleading and interacting with
(01:58):
leaders.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Yes.
Speaker 4 (01:59):
Heather and I am Heather Duran at Saris Hilliard
and I am based outside ofVancouver, british Columbia, in
Canada as well, and my focus inthe work that Anne and I do
together, we come at it a littlebit differently.
I have a lot more of anorganizational lens where I go
in and work with theorganizations around their
talent management systems, theirleadership practices, their
(02:22):
organizational structures anddesign, and Anne and I in
combination do the work that'sreally about.
How do we help leaders who arerunning organizations that have
sort of stalled out, as we say,in adolescence, to really be
able to understand what theyneed to do as leaders
behaviorally, but also thesystems, the structures and the
(02:43):
practices that allow theorganizations to continue to
mature and grow to scale.
So that's some of thecomplexities, and I can never
finish up a conversation aboutwhat we do without saying we do
have a little bit of a specialtyin dysfunction.
So any of you in the audiencethat have experienced leadership
dysfunction in yourorganizations, that is one of
the places that we love to dowork with our clients around.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
You hit it head on.
We're going to talk about it,and most people that listen to
our podcast know that it'scalled Unpacked for a reason.
We just unpack whatever showsup.
So we got this little carry-onsuitcase and we begin to unpack
it in real time with you.
So thank you first of all forsharing who you are and for
coming on the podcast, but forour guests, I mean, let's dive
into it, like right now.
Today, there seems to be a lotof dysfunction in organizations
(03:26):
when it comes to leadership.
What are you noticing as someof the key things that you're
watching?
Because organizations arestruggling in this space and
that's why we're in business.
What are some of the thingsyou're seeing show up in
leadership that's challengingthe sustainability of
organizations?
Speaker 3 (03:46):
So, from my perspective and I'll come at it
from as you've heard it's alittle bit of a different way
that Heather comes at it,because what we do is we both
analyze systems that aren'tsupporting leadership success,
but we also look at how leadersbehave, how they conceptualize
their role and what they thinkis expected of them, and
unfortunately and you probablyexperience this as well that
(04:08):
many, many leaders don't gettrained, and so they show up
believing that they should be agood leader, and in today's
environment, being a good leadermeans letting people do
whatever they feel entitled tobe doing in the workplace, which
means that they can't reallymanage their performance in a
(04:30):
way that gains alignment or getsthem to the results that they
want to achieve.
So permissiveness andentitleness are two really key
issues that are causing a lot ofgrief, a lot of lost
productivity in organizations,and that they really need to be
addressed, because it, in turn,leads to a lack of
(04:51):
accountability.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
So, Heather, I mean you're coming from a different
perspective what do you noticewhen it comes to this turbulence
, dysfunction withinorganizations?
Speaker 4 (04:59):
I think what we have, too, is where the role of the
leader has evolved but clarityhasn't come along with that
evolution of the role of theleader has evolved, but clarity
hasn't come along with thatevolution of the role of the
leader.
And so everybody has theseideas and these expectations.
You know you can't be this andyou can't do this and you can't
say that.
But the offsetting piece of itwhich says but this is what you
(05:19):
need to be doing and this is howyou need to be effective in
directing and governing, andaccountability, all of those
pieces that we really know arefundamental in our
organizational environment.
And then we add to that thecomplexity, where there is a lot
more of a need forcollaboration and for joint work
and to be working notnecessarily in silos, and where
(05:43):
we see that dysfunction is wherethe leaders haven't developed
out kind of the skills or, whatI say, the processes.
Right, they don't have theprocesses, so they keep going at
it, they keep trying, they'redoing their best.
Sometimes they feel superpowerless.
Well, it's, you know, it's thatperson or it's this and I can't
do anything about it.
And there is just this gap,when we look at it
(06:04):
organizationally, where therehasn't been enough definition
put in as to how we're reallygoing to make things work in a
functional way.
And one of the things we say toall of our clients look,
dysfunction is normal.
Like when we bring humanstogether, dysfunction is a
reality or a byproduct, becausewhere there's the opportunity
for function, there's theopportunity for dysfunction, and
so they sort of avoid theconversation about hey, this is
(06:27):
really dysfunctional, this isn'tworking for us, what do we want
to do about it?
Instead, sort of there's workingaround it or this ignoring it,
and then that just breeds moredysfunction, and it also breeds
this personalization of it,where we start to make it about
the person as opposed to whatwe're doing collectively as a
leadership group.
So, that being said, when we gointo organizations that are
(06:49):
struggling with this, one of thethings we often find them
saying is well, there's nothingI can do about it, and that is
absolutely the wrong perspective.
We can resolve dysfunction inorganizations.
There is an approach to take toit, and so if you're out there
feeling like, well, this happensin my organization, but what am
I going to be able to do, we'vehad clients who aren't even at
the executive level bring us inbecause they know it's
(07:12):
dysfunctional and they want tosee it change, and so there's
lots of opportunities forleaders.
But starting to feel powerfulas a leader is an important
first step in that process.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
I love that we started there because you know,
when I look at your website andI look at your bios and what you
talk about is dysfunction, andno better time than today to
really talk about what.
If it's the executiveleadership that's dysfunctional
and the workforce has nopermission to speak at that
level, how do you help peoplethat are not in a key role in
the dysfunction is at the keyrole?
Speaker 3 (07:40):
It's such a great question because we tend to have
more experience working withleaders below the senior
leadership group, who have thisimage of themselves of not doing
anything wrong or not needingany help and their way is
perfectly fine.
And so when next level leadersare even below to Heather's
(08:01):
point, they say, well, I can'tdo anything about it, so I just
tread water until the leadershipchanges or I find another job,
instead of saying what can I doand what is my model for leading
and what are my leadershipvalues?
Because I can do somethingwithin the context of my
function that enhancesproductivity, enhances alignment
(08:26):
and brings people together inthat more collaborative fashion.
And so, again, if you look atwhen people go into that more
self-protective, powerless, I'ma victim, poor me, I can't do
anything about it.
That's what leads to greaterdysfunction, because they're the
ones that ultimately are goingto get the finger pointed at
(08:46):
them for not doing anything atall by senior leadership.
And senior leadership loves tosay it's that one guy, we'll
just get rid of them and all ofour problems will go away.
Speaker 4 (08:58):
Just to add to that, a lot of the CEOs that we work
with in the executive teams likethis is a very common thing for
us to observe where it is theCEO and their behavior that's
creating this disruption or thisdysfunction in the cohesiveness
or the effectiveness of theteam.
But what we say as we work withall the executives around them
is that they have to lead inreality, not in the ideal.
(09:19):
So in the ideal world, yes,their CEO would be superhuman,
perfect at everything and highlyeffective at everything, but
that's not reality.
So when we come into realityand we say, okay, well, what do
you need to do to recognize that, yes, your CEO has these gaps,
but what are you doing to closethose gaps, individually or
collectively?
So there is a lot that we cando with an executive team to
(09:42):
shore up in and around the CEO,so that we're not always making
it about well, the CEO has tochange in order for this all to
work.
It's like no, look at it as anecosystem and you've got
strengths and weaknesses withinthat ecosystem around the CEO,
and all we're trying to do ismanage and navigate to close
those gaps and to make thatecosystem work more effectively
(10:05):
with all of the pieces that fitwithin that ecosystem.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Yes, yes.
How do you help leaders thatare listening today, that are
non-confrontational and don'twant to address issues, because
there are some people that arelike, yeah, I hope it fixes
itself.
I'm just going to put my headin the sand.
I hope, when I pull it out,that problem goes away.
How do you help leaders thatare sitting on the fence and
just they're?
Speaker 3 (10:27):
The first thing that they have to do is step out of
their feelings about not likingsomething and recognizing that
resolving issues is a keycomponent of a leadership role.
And what do they need?
To develop up some conflictskills.
The other thing about this iswe often look at issues as being
(10:47):
much bigger than they reallyare, and part of that is because
we project all kinds of fearabout oh, if I say something,
I'm going to get fired or someother catastrophic event is
going to happen if I put my toeinto that water.
But it's, what can I do and howdo I say it?
Some of the coaching that we dowith this level of leaders is
(11:11):
getting them to recognize thepersonality type of their leader
and how to have maximum impactat raising issues in a less
direct, less confrontational,less emotional fashion, so that
the conflict is almost likepresenting a business case.
If we don't deal with this, ifsomething doesn't happen, it's
(11:34):
going to have this impact onyour reputation and on the
business, for example, and soit's wordsmithing it in a way
and not shying away from theskill that actually needs to be
developed by leaders at thisnext level, because, you know,
not like in conflict, hey, byleaders at this next level
Because you know not like inconflict, hey who does?
(11:56):
But it can be a cop out, it canbe an excuse for just not
having those skills or lookingin and saying what do I need to
develop?
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Thank you Really appreciate it, Heather, as
you're looking at it fromdifferent angles, which I love
the two different perspectives,and it's mother, daughters, and
we'll lean into that in a secondhow do you show up to feel that
your opinion is well receivedand there's more than one
perspective to address a commonissue that we all see?
So what's your perspective onhelping me deal with conflict
when I'm very uncomfortable withit?
Speaker 4 (12:22):
Well, I think one of the things we talk to our
clients about is to really getclear on what the actual issue
is.
And oftentimes people will havebeen living with a situation
for a while and they've got astory that they've told
themselves, that's been built upin their mind or they've
personalized it, but it's abouttheir boss or it's about their
boss's behavior.
And we have to really separateout as Anne had said earlier,
(12:46):
that you know, let's separateout the facts from the feelings.
Right, because I can't resolvefeelings, but I can resolve
issues.
And so what is the actual issue?
And then, when we understandthat actual issue, then saying
what are the options for solvingfor that?
And that changes the discussionand the dynamic.
And I'll give you a for example.
So one of my clients struggleswith her CEO, boss, and so she
(13:09):
ends up walking away fromconversations feeling like, you
know, she's not doing somethingright, that he doesn't value her
work, that he doesn't value herperspective.
So there's the story she walksaway from those interactions
with.
When we look at it from anissue perspective, it's what's
the actual issue?
Well, the issue for her is thatshe's actually not getting to a
place of clarity and alignmentwith her CEO because he
(13:31):
struggles to define things in away that's clear, and so he'll
give her information or he'llgive her a reaction, but he
doesn't actually get into reallysitting down and talking
through it with her in a waythat they can connect on it, and
then she feels like she cantake it away, lead and be
successful in that environment.
So as we navigate that, it'sher changing her perspective
(13:51):
about what it is that she thinksher boss should be doing for
her and looking at what do Ineed to do to lead myself in
this situation?
How do I stop judging him?
And then, all of a sudden, it'snot about the conflict she
doesn't have to fix, somethingthat's going on between her or
her boss.
It's these little things thatwe start to sort of adjust
around our interpretation of theevent, our expectation of
(14:12):
someone else's behavior, our ownbelief about what our role is
in this dynamic.
And then what can we start tointroduce?
And so she's now introducinglots of different structures and
processes and to make sure thatshe's getting to what she needs
to.
And she's leading him throughthat process to support him, but
ultimately to support her ownsuccess and her own sense of
(14:36):
satisfaction and well-being inthe role that she's in.
And so there was no bigconversation.
To Anne's point, there was nosort of you know, we gotta pound
our fists and duke somethingout here.
From that perspective, it'slike there's an issue, but let's
name the issue.
Let's really get clear aboutthe issue.
Let's like there's an issue,but let's name the issue.
Let's really get clear aboutthe issue.
Let's separate out what's goingon in us and our interpretation,
our judgments, our emotionsthat are all clouding it, and
(14:59):
then look at sort of some of thedifferent things we can try.
And there's trial and errorwith some of this, especially at
the leadership level, like ifyou can try something, I often
will say to clients look, yougot to be prepared for the first
three no's, right?
So because we're getting got toget past those first three no's
to get to the S, and so changeyour mindset, because a lot of
the what we create ourselveswe're not always aware of what
(15:21):
we're bringing into thesituation that's actually
expanding or extending what isactually going on and again
leaving us feeling powerless.
And we don't want leaders tofeel powerless in any situation
that they're in.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
Both of you have given a lot to unpack.
I will lean into behaviorchange first.
It's notoriously verychallenging for behavior change,
for most human beings to changethis thing that I may have have
gotten me to the pivotal pointof being in a leadership role,
of being in an executive role,and all of a sudden, dynamics
have changed, changed,requirements have changed, the
organization has changed and nowyou're asking me, after 15
(15:55):
years or 20 years of doing itthis way, to change my behavior.
What have you done in the pastthat's helped people be able to
navigate through this change ofmy behavior?
Speaker 3 (16:04):
To reference a point that Heather brought up earlier
around managing expectations,when you understand how quote
unquote lazy our brains actuallyare, it's they're wired to do
the same thing that they'vealways done, because when we try
and do something different, thebrain goes on high alert.
(16:25):
It's like what the heck's goingon here and why are you wanting
me to do this?
And I feel incompetent and Idon't know how I'll look if I do
it this different way.
And so if we don't expect thatit will take time and that we
have to be patient andcompassionate and supportive
with ourselves during a changeprocess and we don't buy our own
(16:47):
script around hey, this is hardand it doesn't need to change
anyway.
Script around hey, this is hardand it doesn't need to change
anyway, that may you know.
We see we can step slowly out ofour resistance and build those
new neural pathways thatultimately make new things
easier for us.
But it's an expectingresistance and normalizing
(17:07):
resistance and being patientwith oneself that leaders in
general don't have a lot of timefor, and so that's why they'll
say, okay, everyone else canchange, but we really don't need
to.
I don't have time for this.
I don't have time to change mybehavior.
But you can, because that's areally good idea what you're
proposing.
(17:28):
We've had so many clients whowill do this, but the brain
wants to stay the same.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
And you're absolutely right too, when you think of it
, Ann is we do expect theworkforce to change sooner than
we change, but there's justleaders go first.
So if you want the change tohappen, then you've got to model
it sometimes.
So I'm glad you're leaning intothat.
How does the leader show up inthat space?
Anything you want to add tothat, Heather?
Speaker 4 (17:52):
Yeah, I think one of the things we sort of treat
behavioral change is thisintellectual exercise where it's
like, ok, I think I need tobehave like X, but right now I'm
behaving like Y and so I'lljust flip the switch and
suddenly it'll happen.
Right.
And as opposed to reallyunderstanding, where you know
what is actually required for usas human beings around
behavioral change, obviouslymotivation we have to want to
(18:14):
change.
It's got to be part of it.
But one of the things that wefind works the best is thinking
about how do we do it for, howdo we do it with, how do we do
it in a way that supports?
And so it's not so simple assaying just go and we're going
(18:38):
to make.
That's like we recognize thatthe best behavioral change comes
, like the most effective waycomes when we're actually in and
those leaders are beingsupported.
They're having their hands held.
Sometimes the behavior is beingdone for them first, so they
can see it.
Because we have a lot ofclients who have grown up in
their organizations and theyonly know what they know.
So now you say, well, we haveto behave differently in this
environment.
It's like, well, you lookaround and it's like, well, what
does that look like?
I don't even know what thatmeans.
And so how do we give them thehelp that they actually need?
(19:00):
Because there is this tendencyof leaders to think they can do,
because they're smart people,they think they can do
everything, and then they runthe risk of not being able to
follow through on the behavioralchange.
The other thing we look at iswhat's the system or process
that supports the behavioralchange, because a lot of the
times is that, you know, we justtalk about the behavioral
change but we don't say, okay,well, what's the system I need
(19:22):
around me to support me tosustain that?
So, whether that'saccountability so someone's
holding me accountable, or I'mputting in new meetings or touch
points, or I've got a new formto work from that I use to
follow, to really practice andingrain this new behavior, and
so there's a lot of pieces andtools that go into it.
And I do think that whereleaders, especially at the
(19:45):
executive level, where theydon't want to be touched and
they don't want to be helped inthat way and they think they can
do it all on their own, andhaving them work through just
that piece of the resistance toallow themselves to be supported
in a way that really gets themto that behavioral change that's
necessary.
That's one of the first piecesof the work that we're typically
(20:07):
doing is to get them warmed upand ready so that they can be
helped through this process.
Speaker 3 (20:12):
Doing is to get them warmed up and ready so that they
can be helped through thisprocess.
And just to add to Heather'spoint about leaders they often
don't know what they don't knowrelative to what's being
expected of them from abehavioral change, and so the
whole topic of employeeengagement, for example.
They immediately go to well,what am I supposed to do?
Ask all of my employees whatthey did on the weekend, or take
(20:33):
them out for coffee, and we canmake assumptions that they
actually know what we're talkingabout, because they will never
say to you I have no idea whatyou're asking me to do here with
this behavioral change, becausethey should know.
It's a fundamental belief ofI'm a good leader.
(20:53):
I should know, and therefore Ican't ask any questions about
what's being expected of me now.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
Yeah, I think you're spot on.
Both of you are as far as like.
What are the expectations?
How do you be able to make theshift across the board and ask
for help and leaders are.
It's very difficult when youget to the executive level to
say what you don't know, becausethere's this unwritten
expectation that you should knowand I think the language they
tie around.
That is like this impostersyndrome, especially if you're
in a room full of other CEOs.
You definitely are not going toshowcase what you don't know in
(21:22):
that space because it justdoesn't feel safe.
Let's shift a little bit.
You're in the business, I'm anentrepreneur, so I want to speak
to the entrepreneurs on thisparticular piece and you're in
business as a family and you'rewomen.
What are some of the challenges?
First of all, for workingtogether as family, but also
coming up and building abusiness as a woman in the
business, there are challenges.
Can you speak to the familypart?
What are some things youlearned along the way as a
(21:43):
family and what are some thingsyou've done really, really well
to work better together asfamily?
Speaker 4 (21:49):
I'll start that one off.
Anne and I have a little bit ofa different backstory because
Anne's my biological mother andshe gave me up for adoption when
I was born, so I was raised inan adopted family and Anne and I
reunited when I was 28.
And we actually started ourbusiness together three years
later, so we were actually stillforging our relationship.
(22:10):
I'm 28 when Anne and I met, soI wasn't really looking for a
mother, so we were actuallystill forging our relationship.
I'm 28 when Anna and I met, soI wasn't really looking for a
mother, so we were trying tofigure out what that
relationship the personalrelationship was gonna be.
But we had this clearconnection and common ground
around the work we were doing.
I was doing it in organizations, helping organizations to
achieve their potential.
She was working individuallywith leaders and we just saw
(22:32):
this huge opportunity to bringthese two pieces together and
forge a path jointly, and so westarted our business 26 years
ago.
So it's been a different kind ofjourney than, I think, most
other mother daughters, becauseyou know, I didn't have the
whole teenage angst with mymother, so, but we did have to
figure out what was this allgoing to be, and I think that
(22:54):
was really helpful for us bothas entrepreneurs and in our
relationship, is we had to be alittle bit more definitive
around what we wanted, what wasgoing to work, what wasn't going
to work, having to sort of youknow there was a little bit of
trial and error around it sortof you know there was a little
bit of trial and error around it, without a doubt.
But I think, as any entrepreneur, you're having to look at you
(23:16):
yourself and your role in thebusiness and what it is that
you're looking for from it as anindividual, and what's that
separation of you from yourbusiness?
And again, as consultants too,it's also different, because our
businesses are expertise and sothere's a lot in there where
some of the things that I know Ilearned really had to increase
my level of self-awareness.
I had to increase my level ofemotional astuteness, my
(23:40):
emotional IQ for sure, in orderto be able to navigate it,
because it's not a familydynamic, because it's a business
and yet there's familyrelational pieces to it, and so
the more you can be aware of andbe able to move into some of
these honest conversations asyou go through and as you grow
through, because 26 yearstogether.
(24:00):
There was a lot of growing wewere doing through this process
of being entrepreneurs andrunning our business, and so I
think that those are a couple ofthings that I would lead off of
, and then Em can maybe talkabout the whole women in
business side of it a bit morethan I did.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Thank you for transparency.
You're right, it is a differentrelationship, but I know that
there's someone listening thatunderstands and say, hey, man,
thanks for sharing that.
Even with a different daughtermother relationship later on in
life, you share something thatmost people don't naturally hear
.
When you're on stage or whenyou're in a room and there's
someone paying attention to thisand say how do I do it, how do
I navigate so I get it?
We have a teenager at home.
So that does change thoserelationships because they're
(24:36):
trying to figure out and you'retrying to just keep them in the
guidelines and with theguidepost up.
So thank you for sharing.
So, anne, what do you add to it?
I mean, as far as therelationship or women in
business, where do you want togo at with it?
Speaker 3 (24:47):
Well, a couple of things that come to mind around.
This is one of the things thatall partners, regardless of
whether it's a marriage or abusiness partnership, whatever
is that the challenges ofbecoming a we and navigating
your individual agendaespecially if you have an
(25:07):
entrepreneurial brain becauseyou want to just run with your
own idea and doing that in thecontext of building a
relationship with two differentapproaches to working that
Heather and I had.
There was a lot of navigatingthat without at first having the
language to talk about it, andHeather and I co-created a
(25:31):
personality system called thestriving styles, and it was
through that period of timewhere we really dug down into
recognizing how different ourbrains are, how different our
needs are in terms of what ourneed satisfiers at work and in
relationships are, which reallyhelped us move ahead in our
(25:53):
relationship and give it, youknow, giving us more space to do
our individual thing within thecontext of the we that we had
created together.
It's a very challenging thing.
To your point of you know, bothof our styles are relatively
conflict avoidant, so it wasn'tthat we loved conflict and we
didn't have that familialfoundation of you know.
(26:16):
Well, I'm your mother andyou're going to do what I say or
I'm the daughter you have to.
Let me have my way.
You know there wasn't any ofthat there.
It was simply navigating ittogether.
And in terms of being aconsultant and an entrepreneur,
as a woman, you know, I've hadan experience, you know, working
(26:37):
with a group of engineers, forexample, where I have said to
them I would not be in this roomwith you if I wasn't a
consultant, because you have nowomen on your leadership team,
because you'll take advice fromme, sort of, and you'll let me
help you, because you'll takeadvice from me, sort of, and
you'll let me help you, but youwill not let me be a part of it.
And that was very eye-opening.
And I think, to some degree, weare able to make really find
(27:03):
our own runway withmale-dominated businesses like
the ones that we've worked inengineering, construction and
everything, mining, things likethat, because of the way we
approach things, because of ourown personality types.
So it's sort of taking thewe're women and we're telling
(27:25):
you men, this it's no, we areshowing you what is possible for
you should you decide to adoptthese behaviors or these
practices in your business.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
I mean I totally agree.
I mean, at some point you knowit's not what you walk in the
door with, but you're aware thatit's there, but you have an
expertise and a service toprovide to help them get better.
And so as you think aboutentrepreneur I love that you say
you know if you're anentrepreneur you have these
brains that kind of have thisagenda, that what you want to
get accomplished and overcomingthat as you do the work that you
do.
The other question I have thatcame to mind as you were
(27:59):
speaking leaning in forward,trust is at an all-time low
across our society and at somepoint you have to build that to
be an entrepreneur or a team ora partner.
How do you help leaders thatare listening, that are
struggling with establishingtrust with the people that they
lead and keeping it long-term?
Speaker 4 (28:16):
It's a really good question.
It's funny too, because it'snot something that I would have
said, you know, I was reallyconscious of how do I get my
clients to trust me, how do Iget my clients to follow me.
But it's something that, as aresult of kind of who I am, how
I behave, who Anne is, how shebehaves, that we've fostered,
that A lot of our clients workfor us for in some of them,
(28:37):
decades We've been with them.
They've maybe changedorganizations and they bring us
along.
I have a client recently whoabsolutely hates consultants and
yet I'm in there working withthem, and so I think part of it
is there's a lot that's gone onwhere and we see it too where
ego is so much about and notnecessarily ego from that look
(28:59):
at me and look at how great I am, but almost from that place of
ego I don't want people to seeme or I don't want people not to
like me or I don't.
You know I have to behave in aparticular way and so some of
the behavior that comes for thatpeople pick up really quickly
when they don't feel like theirleader is genuine or they don't
feel like their leader is reallyable to sort of lead them and
(29:21):
give them something that theycan follow or a place that they
can belong to.
And from that perspective,where we watch some of our
clients who just struggle tosort of show up and so their
staff really feel that vacuumaround them.
And trust me, I'm not talkingabout being relational or being,
you know, touchy feely, becauseevery one of my clients will
(29:43):
tell you that's not what I amand it's got a similar brain
style.
We're logical, we're objective,we're sort of very left brain
as females, and so I'm notsaying it from that oh, you got
to get in, you got to reallyknow these people and you got to
, you know, spend a whole bunchof time with it.
It's there's something elsewhere allowing people to feel
like they're safe, that they'reheard, that someone is thinking
(30:05):
about them and where we're goingwith things, and it doesn't
have to be sort of on a bigscale, and I think we've lost
some of that.
I think I know leaders that Iwork with where they're not
really thinking about that placeof.
Do my staff feel like I'mgiving them something to follow,
something to anchor them,something where they feel safe?
And so that ambiguity, I think,is a huge challenge for us as a
(30:30):
society across the board, and Ithink that people are more
likely, because they've gotlanguage today to put to words
like psychological safety andbullying and harassment, but
they don't really quiteunderstand it.
And so, you know, there's justsomething in there where leaders
have to show up and just showup and be solid in saying this
(30:52):
is it, this is the direction.
You know, this is what you canexpect, this is what I expect of
you.
That's where the safety andsecurity comes from, and I think
we're missing that to a greatdegree, and hence the reason why
we do the work we do right islike we're the ones you know,
(31:14):
know like you and your wife aredoing is we know and understand
the importance of leaders in allof this, and not just in
organizations, but also in theirrollover into how they impact
out in society as well.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
I mean you're hitting on everything that I think is
going to benefit people that arelistening is that thing of
leaders showing up and providingthis safe space and know that
you're going to be taken care of.
So I can take some risk.
You know anything you add tothat, anne?
Speaker 3 (31:31):
Yeah, I was thinking about.
You know, leaders too get thewrong idea because of what's
being imposed on them, asHeather said, about the notion
that they're responsible fortheir employees' psychological
safety, and they get some ideathat they have to tend to
employees' emotions Anxiety, forexample.
An employee will say, oh, thisis making me so anxious, I'm
(31:55):
feeling so overwhelmed.
And instead of the leadersaying, okay, you know, I see
that you're feeling that way.
Let's unpack what's going onwith you so that we can sort out
those triggers and we can takea step-by-step approach to your
work in a way that's notgenerating anxiety.
(32:17):
But instead what they do is aclient of mine, for example,
when her direct report came incrying because she was
overwhelmed and she sent herhome for the rest of the day
instead of delving into what isthe actual issue.
Nice way to get a half a day off, right, but it doesn't help
(32:38):
when we're over focusing onemotions and not really helping
the employee to manage anddeveloping in them the skill for
themselves to say what'striggering this.
I can master my job, I know howto do this and not let emotions
get in the way.
But when leaders have this ideathat they have to be therapists
(33:02):
or counselors or tend toemotions, then there's reduced
productivity and it becomesreally problematic, because if
you've got one person doing itand that become you know they're
allowed to make emotions themain event, then other people
are going to start doing it too.
Speaker 2 (33:21):
Yes, yes, I think you hit on something.
That's super important, though,anne, is there is this
unwritten, unspoken expectationthat leaders have to be coaches
or therapists or counselors,because when that shows up, the
easiest way is to let them gohome and you don't have to deal
with it.
But isn't there an expectationthat a leader is going to have
to have some level of coachingability to unpack I love that
(33:42):
you used the word too, anne, shedropped it in for us unpacked,
so thank you for that.
But is there some level that Ithink leaders coming aboard now
have to have some level ofability to coach or counsel not
necessarily be therapists, butan ability to unpack what's
happening versus send peoplehome.
Speaker 4 (33:58):
Absolutely, and it's what we say is separating out
what's the issue and what's thefeeling.
Right, you know we can't solvefor emotions, and that means I
can't solve for my employeesemotions, that's not my
responsibility.
And so what do I need to do toboundary it?
It's like, okay, clearly you'reupset, take a moment, take a
deep breath and then let'sproblem solve.
Let's problem solve what we can.
(34:19):
But, but part of it is again Ican think about my 20 year old
self as a leader going.
I don't want your emotions,don't cry around me.
What are you doing?
I, you know it's like what doyou?
This is a workplace, yeah, so Ihad to build tolerance.
Like I'm, like most leaders islike you have to build tolerance
for the emotions of others, andthat's the full spectrum of
(34:40):
emotions that people might bring.
But it doesn't mean I have togo in and go.
Oh, you know, you poor thing.
It's like what can we do foryou and how can we take care of
you?
Because that's not our jobleading right, it's I'm not
their mother, so it's not myresponsibility, I'm not their
counselor, I'm not theirtherapist.
But from a workplace perspective, I need to understand what is
the issue that we need to solvefor in the workplace so that my
(35:03):
employee can be productive, myteam can be productive, and then
we can achieve the results thatwe need to achieve.
And if it is to that point whereit's not something that is
resolvable, because it'ssomething happening in their
personal life, there areemployee programs, there are
other community supports that wecan direct people to, but still
the expectation is held that weneed to resolve this because
(35:25):
the work needs to be done, andI'm not, my job is not to cater,
but I can tell you, I have somany clients and in the same
boat where we have so manyclients that cannot tolerate the
emotions of others, and sobecause of that, we see it too
on the other side.
Sorry, just I think aboutemployees who can't tolerate
their managers expressingfrustration, irritation.
(35:46):
It gets like, oh, you know,they're being so mean to us and
it's like, no, no, no, they'refrustrated and they're irritated
.
It's like everybody's trying tocontrol the emotions so much
and we don't have that abilityto just say, hey, we're human,
so emotional expression isappropriate.
But now we need to move pastthat emotional expression and
figure out what we need to do toget the job done.
Speaker 2 (36:10):
I mean great way to explain it and I think you know
a good part of where we are inthe program now is the tolerance
.
I love that you say I had towork on my own tolerance for
this because I didn't reallywant to deal with it, and I
think leaders have to be okay,being human, because we feel
like we got to get it right allthe time.
And you're not going to get itright all the time, and if I do,
I'm probably going to be alittle leery of them.
So be human and understand thatyou got things you got to work
on as well, so you're doing thebusiness that you do.
(36:32):
What are the reasons?
As you think about yourorganization and the people that
are listening to this podcast,I want to be able to make sure
people know when to pick up thephone and call you or send your
email.
What are some things that willbe happening in companies that
say, hey, pick up the phone,reach out to Anna Heather you
can start Heather that one, ourfavorite one, is you're
complaining, you're complaining,you're complaining to your
Speaker 4 (36:52):
co-workers, you're complaining to your spouse,
you're complaining to yourfriends is like you're.
If you're in a leadership roleand you find that so much of
your energy is going intocomplaining about your staff,
your boss, your co-workers,that's a sign.
That's a sign that somethinghas stalled out for you and
you're stuck and that you needsupport in order to move through
(37:13):
whatever those challenges are.
So that would be a really goodopportunity.
The other thing would befrustration.
So where we see a lot of ourclients are frustrated with they
can't get their employees to dosomething or they can't get
their you know, it's a lot ofcases, especially at the
executive level.
It's like their direct reportsor their team isn't quite
(37:34):
delivering what they need to be.
And the third one is againwhere we see a lot in the
organizations that we work withwhere they're trying to grow but
they're really finding there'ssomething misaligned between the
leaders, the people and theambition of the organization and
it's not moving as quickly asthe senior leaders want it to
(37:55):
expect it to.
So it would be sort of thosethree sort of pieces for us are
typically why our clients cometo us.
And that's what we do.
We go in and we work with themto help them solve for the
actual issues, so that they canget unstuck individually as
leaders or collectively as anorganization.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
And I'll continue in a second over there.
And if you listen to theentrepreneur, if you're not
solving the problem, then you'reprobably going to be in trouble
as an entrepreneur.
So you want to focus on theproblem solving piece of it
we're not exempt from asentrepreneurs or leaders, but
you know, as Annie Heathertalked about it, they're always
going.
What's the problem?
So, entrepreneurs, if you'relistening, be very, very clear
on the problems you solve, sopeople will be interested in
(38:34):
bringing you into theorganization.
What would you add to it, Anne?
As far as what are the thingsthat you see you're getting the
calls for?
Speaker 3 (38:49):
What's happening in organizations channel of people
that might be coming to mespecifically is we have female
leaders who blame themselvesbecause their employees are
complaining about them, and thatthey are willing to because of
their own self-image, they'rewilling to take on the
responsibility and think thatthe problem is theirs, that
they're been accused of beingmean or they're not
understanding enough,particularly in female leaders
(39:10):
who there really is more of anexpectation that they act like
mothers as opposed to leaders,and those who suffer from the
imposter syndrome where they arewilling to believe that they
aren't good enough and that,even though they have earned the
right through their work to beat the table, they're still, you
(39:33):
know, bringing coffee andcookies and whatever else to the
board meetings and so that sortof client stream, especially
with women.
There are some men who sufferfrom this as well, but more
women who just have such a lowestimate of themselves and they
are seeking the approval ofothers instead of just showing
(39:57):
up with their own authority andowning their place at the table.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
Yes, you're spot on.
Thank you for saying it too.
I mean because you'reabsolutely right.
How do you show up, have yourvoice in the room and I will
tell you that even as a man,I'll know 6% of it and like I
know 100% of it and how do youget where that's your space to
be able to have those realconversations without calling
anybody out, but really having areal conversation?
So I'm glad that you hit on thewomen piece of it, how you show
up when they should call you,because you're right.
(40:23):
I mean we tend to want to forwomen to listen, to show up in
this place like a motherlyfigure when you really have
earned the right to be a leader.
So I can be a little bit moreabrasive or aggressive If a
woman is it?
There's some bad names that'scalled or some things that said
that's inappropriate.
How do you balance the playingfield where you can still be a
phenomenal, assertive leaderwithout getting a bad rap?
But I think, women, if youlisten to that and you're trying
(40:44):
to figure that out, you got twowomen on the screen that you
can reach out to say hey, here'swhere I'm struggling.
I'm in this role, but I'mhaving a really hard time and
I'm tired of bringing cookiesand coffee.
I want to be seen as a leaderin the room, so perfect
opportunity.
What's the best way to reachyou if someone's interested in
having a further conversationabout the services you offer?
Speaker 4 (41:02):
Our website, drannitsaris-hill Durant at
Saris hyphen Hilliard dot com,and hopefully you'll put that in
the show notes so that it'seasy for people to pick up and
spell.
Everything's there All of theresources, information about the
books that Anne and I havewritten, striving Styles,
personality System, as Annetalked about, access to connect
with us directly throughLinkedIn, but it's all there in
one place.
So opportunity to learn alittle bit more about some of
(41:23):
the things we do, the resourceswe have to offer, our YouTube
channel, et cetera, all in oneplace.
So that's Duran at Sarah'shyphen Hilliardcom.
Speaker 2 (41:32):
Awesome, awesome.
Thank you for sharing Anythingyou want to leave the audience
with.
I mean anything.
You want to say great wisdom,any nuggets, anything jumping
out that you want to say, hey,well, I didn't get to say this.
Is there anything you want toleave the audience with?
Speaker 3 (41:49):
One of the books that Heather and I wrote is called
so you Think you Can Lead, andit's specifically from this more
systematic, programmaticapproach to leading employees
and knowing how to behave atevery stage of the employee
development cycle, not justthinking that you should be able
(42:09):
to just show up and be a greatleader, because that's what
leaders aspire to.
I'm a great leader.
Nobody can tell me anythingbecause I'm great, but this book
has it all relative to.
There are things all leadersknow how to do well, and then
there are the things that aremore difficult, and this is a
(42:30):
how to book for leadershipdevelopment and a resource guide
for, oh my God, this is goingon.
I need to go back to my book,because employees are behaving
this way.
I need to know, I need sometips, tips In the absence of
(42:50):
having a coach.
And to what you said earlierabout all of these senior
leaders if you're a group ofsenior athletes professional
athletes every one of them wouldhave a coach, but senior
leaders don't see it the sameway, and that's a mindset that
needs to change, because everyday is different for leaders.
Speaker 2 (43:05):
Absolutely, and thank you for dropping the book so
you think you can lead.
Y'all heard it.
I think all of us can read that.
There are days when I think Ican.
The other days I'm like how didthey pick me so I get it?
You know, I've had some really,really great success stories to
share, but I also got somefailures that I could share as
well, where I didn't get itright.
21 years.
I became a leader very young,about 22 years old.
I had no business leading atthat time, I just knew my job
(43:27):
well.
I was still trying to figureout how to get my own bed made,
you know.
So I would say that it's ajourney.
Put some people around you, beokay with not knowing everything
, and there'll be people.
Give people opportunity to holdyou accountable and help you
grow.
Both of you have beenphenomenal.
So thank you for joining, thankyou for really talking about
all of the things that youshared and, for those of you
that are following the podcast,we release a podcast every
(43:49):
Monday with different leadersfrom around the globe and the
fun part about it is we justunpack the conversation.
So hopefully you found somevalue in this.
Reach out to the team.
Of course, this will be in theshow notes, so you'll have it.
And again, this is Ron Harveyand we're signing off, and thank
you all for joining us foranother episode of Unpacked with
Ron Harvey, and until next time, we will see you on another
podcast with another leader fromaround the globe.
Speaker 1 (44:12):
We hope you enjoyed this edition of Turning Point
Leadership with your host, RonHarvey.
We're so glad you joined us.
Remember to join us every firstand third Mondays and expect to
receive real answers for realleadership challenges.
Until next time, make adifference where you are and
with what you have.
There are those who arecounting on you for effective
(44:36):
leadership.
Welcome to Turning Point Leadership Podcast with
your host, ron Harvey of GlobalCore Strategies and Consulting.
Ron's delighted you joined usand excited to discuss and help
you navigate your journeytowards becoming an effective
leader.
During this podcast, ron willshare his core belief that
effective leadership is one ofthe key drivers towards change.
So together let's grow asleaders.
(00:25):
Here's Ron Harvey.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Good morning.
This is Ron Harvey.
I'm the vice president and thechief operating officer for
Global Core Strategies andConsulting, and we're based out
of Columbia, South Carolina.
We run a leadership developmentfirm, and I say we my wife and
I started the company For all ofyou that's been following us
for a while and you know that wedo one thing really, really
well and that's helping leadersbe better connected to their
workforce.
So we spend all of our time andthere are multiple ways to do
(00:51):
that, but we pause every singleweek and we release a podcast,
and today I'm super excited I'venever had this dynamic on the
podcast before to have a motherand daughter trio that's doing
the work that we do in differentlocations.
So I'm super excited that weget to cooperate and collaborate
about what we're doing in thechallenges.
I understand it as husband andwife, but I don't have my son in
(01:11):
the business or my daughter inthe business, so they'll share
some things from a women'sperspective and from a family
dynamic duo that's doing greatwork.
So I'm going to pause, hand themicrophone to them and let them
introduce themselves, and thenwe'll get started.
So let me hand it over to youand, if you want to kick us off.
That'd be great.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Sure, I'll kick us off.
I'm Dr Andrea Natsaris and I'mlocated in Toronto, canada, and
the focus of my work has alwaysbeen, as it has been, within
Caliber Leadership Systems, thebusiness that Heather and I
founded together on helpingleaders and individuals achieve
their potential through systems,through understanding
themselves, the person who isleading and interacting with
(01:58):
leaders.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Yes.
Speaker 4 (01:59):
Heather and I am Heather Duran at Saris Hilliard
and I am based outside ofVancouver, british Columbia, in
Canada as well, and my focus inthe work that Anne and I do
together, we come at it a littlebit differently.
I have a lot more of anorganizational lens where I go
in and work with theorganizations around their
talent management systems, theirleadership practices, their
(02:22):
organizational structures anddesign, and Anne and I in
combination do the work that'sreally about.
How do we help leaders who arerunning organizations that have
sort of stalled out, as we say,in adolescence, to really be
able to understand what theyneed to do as leaders
behaviorally, but also thesystems, the structures and the
(02:43):
practices that allow theorganizations to continue to
mature and grow to scale.
So that's some of thecomplexities, and I can never
finish up a conversation aboutwhat we do without saying we do
have a little bit of a specialtyin dysfunction.
So any of you in the audiencethat have experienced leadership
dysfunction in yourorganizations, that is one of
the places that we love to dowork with our clients around.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
You hit it head on.
We're going to talk about it,and most people that listen to
our podcast know that it'scalled Unpacked for a reason.
We just unpack whatever showsup.
So we got this little carry-onsuitcase and we begin to unpack
it in real time with you.
So thank you first of all forsharing who you are and for
coming on the podcast, but forour guests, I mean, let's dive
into it, like right now.
Today, there seems to be a lotof dysfunction in organizations
(03:26):
when it comes to leadership.
What are you noticing as someof the key things that you're
watching?
Because organizations arestruggling in this space and
that's why we're in business.
What are some of the thingsyou're seeing show up in
leadership that's challengingthe sustainability of
organizations?
Speaker 3 (03:46):
So, from my perspective and I'll come at it
from as you've heard it's alittle bit of a different way
that Heather comes at it,because what we do is we both
analyze systems that aren'tsupporting leadership success,
but we also look at how leadersbehave, how they conceptualize
their role and what they thinkis expected of them, and
unfortunately and you probablyexperience this as well that
(04:08):
many, many leaders don't gettrained, and so they show up
believing that they should be agood leader, and in today's
environment, being a good leadermeans letting people do
whatever they feel entitled tobe doing in the workplace, which
means that they can't reallymanage their performance in a
(04:30):
way that gains alignment or getsthem to the results that they
want to achieve.
So permissiveness andentitleness are two really key
issues that are causing a lot ofgrief, a lot of lost
productivity in organizations,and that they really need to be
addressed, because it, in turn,leads to a lack of
(04:51):
accountability.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
So, Heather, I mean you're coming from a different
perspective what do you noticewhen it comes to this turbulence
, dysfunction withinorganizations?
Speaker 4 (04:59):
I think what we have, too, is where the role of the
leader has evolved but clarityhasn't come along with that
evolution of the role of theleader has evolved, but clarity
hasn't come along with thatevolution of the role of the
leader.
And so everybody has theseideas and these expectations.
You know you can't be this andyou can't do this and you can't
say that.
But the offsetting piece of itwhich says but this is what you
(05:19):
need to be doing and this is howyou need to be effective in
directing and governing, andaccountability, all of those
pieces that we really know arefundamental in our
organizational environment.
And then we add to that thecomplexity, where there is a lot
more of a need forcollaboration and for joint work
and to be working notnecessarily in silos, and where
(05:43):
we see that dysfunction is wherethe leaders haven't developed
out kind of the skills or, whatI say, the processes.
Right, they don't have theprocesses, so they keep going at
it, they keep trying, they'redoing their best.
Sometimes they feel superpowerless.
Well, it's, you know, it's thatperson or it's this and I can't
do anything about it.
And there is just this gap,when we look at it
(06:04):
organizationally, where therehasn't been enough definition
put in as to how we're reallygoing to make things work in a
functional way.
And one of the things we say toall of our clients look,
dysfunction is normal.
Like when we bring humanstogether, dysfunction is a
reality or a byproduct, becausewhere there's the opportunity
for function, there's theopportunity for dysfunction, and
so they sort of avoid theconversation about hey, this is
(06:27):
really dysfunctional, this isn'tworking for us, what do we want
to do about it?
Instead, sort of there's workingaround it or this ignoring it,
and then that just breeds moredysfunction, and it also breeds
this personalization of it,where we start to make it about
the person as opposed to whatwe're doing collectively as a
leadership group.
So, that being said, when we gointo organizations that are
(06:49):
struggling with this, one of thethings we often find them
saying is well, there's nothingI can do about it, and that is
absolutely the wrong perspective.
We can resolve dysfunction inorganizations.
There is an approach to take toit, and so if you're out there
feeling like, well, this happensin my organization, but what am
I going to be able to do, we'vehad clients who aren't even at
the executive level bring us inbecause they know it's
(07:12):
dysfunctional and they want tosee it change, and so there's
lots of opportunities forleaders.
But starting to feel powerfulas a leader is an important
first step in that process.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
I love that we started there because you know,
when I look at your website andI look at your bios and what you
talk about is dysfunction, andno better time than today to
really talk about what.
If it's the executiveleadership that's dysfunctional
and the workforce has nopermission to speak at that
level, how do you help peoplethat are not in a key role in
the dysfunction is at the keyrole?
Speaker 3 (07:40):
It's such a great question because we tend to have
more experience working withleaders below the senior
leadership group, who have thisimage of themselves of not doing
anything wrong or not needingany help and their way is
perfectly fine.
And so when next level leadersare even below to Heather's
(08:01):
point, they say, well, I can'tdo anything about it, so I just
tread water until the leadershipchanges or I find another job,
instead of saying what can I doand what is my model for leading
and what are my leadershipvalues?
Because I can do somethingwithin the context of my
function that enhancesproductivity, enhances alignment
(08:26):
and brings people together inthat more collaborative fashion.
And so, again, if you look atwhen people go into that more
self-protective, powerless, I'ma victim, poor me, I can't do
anything about it.
That's what leads to greaterdysfunction, because they're the
ones that ultimately are goingto get the finger pointed at
(08:46):
them for not doing anything atall by senior leadership.
And senior leadership loves tosay it's that one guy, we'll
just get rid of them and all ofour problems will go away.
Speaker 4 (08:58):
Just to add to that, a lot of the CEOs that we work
with in the executive teams likethis is a very common thing for
us to observe where it is theCEO and their behavior that's
creating this disruption or thisdysfunction in the cohesiveness
or the effectiveness of theteam.
But what we say as we work withall the executives around them
is that they have to lead inreality, not in the ideal.
(09:19):
So in the ideal world, yes,their CEO would be superhuman,
perfect at everything and highlyeffective at everything, but
that's not reality.
So when we come into realityand we say, okay, well, what do
you need to do to recognize that, yes, your CEO has these gaps,
but what are you doing to closethose gaps, individually or
collectively?
So there is a lot that we cando with an executive team to
(09:42):
shore up in and around the CEO,so that we're not always making
it about well, the CEO has tochange in order for this all to
work.
It's like no, look at it as anecosystem and you've got
strengths and weaknesses withinthat ecosystem around the CEO,
and all we're trying to do ismanage and navigate to close
those gaps and to make thatecosystem work more effectively
(10:05):
with all of the pieces that fitwithin that ecosystem.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Yes, yes.
How do you help leaders thatare listening today, that are
non-confrontational and don'twant to address issues, because
there are some people that arelike, yeah, I hope it fixes
itself.
I'm just going to put my headin the sand.
I hope, when I pull it out,that problem goes away.
How do you help leaders thatare sitting on the fence and
just they're?
Speaker 3 (10:27):
The first thing that they have to do is step out of
their feelings about not likingsomething and recognizing that
resolving issues is a keycomponent of a leadership role.
And what do they need?
To develop up some conflictskills.
The other thing about this iswe often look at issues as being
(10:47):
much bigger than they reallyare, and part of that is because
we project all kinds of fearabout oh, if I say something,
I'm going to get fired or someother catastrophic event is
going to happen if I put my toeinto that water.
But it's, what can I do and howdo I say it?
Some of the coaching that we dowith this level of leaders is
(11:11):
getting them to recognize thepersonality type of their leader
and how to have maximum impactat raising issues in a less
direct, less confrontational,less emotional fashion, so that
the conflict is almost likepresenting a business case.
If we don't deal with this, ifsomething doesn't happen, it's
(11:34):
going to have this impact onyour reputation and on the
business, for example, and soit's wordsmithing it in a way
and not shying away from theskill that actually needs to be
developed by leaders at thisnext level, because, you know,
not like in conflict, hey, byleaders at this next level
Because you know not like inconflict, hey who does?
(11:56):
But it can be a cop out, it canbe an excuse for just not
having those skills or lookingin and saying what do I need to
develop?
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Thank you Really appreciate it, Heather, as
you're looking at it fromdifferent angles, which I love
the two different perspectives,and it's mother, daughters, and
we'll lean into that in a secondhow do you show up to feel that
your opinion is well receivedand there's more than one
perspective to address a commonissue that we all see?
So what's your perspective onhelping me deal with conflict
when I'm very uncomfortable withit?
Speaker 4 (12:22):
Well, I think one of the things we talk to our
clients about is to really getclear on what the actual issue
is.
And oftentimes people will havebeen living with a situation
for a while and they've got astory that they've told
themselves, that's been built upin their mind or they've
personalized it, but it's abouttheir boss or it's about their
boss's behavior.
And we have to really separateout as Anne had said earlier,
(12:46):
that you know, let's separateout the facts from the feelings.
Right, because I can't resolvefeelings, but I can resolve
issues.
And so what is the actual issue?
And then, when we understandthat actual issue, then saying
what are the options for solvingfor that?
And that changes the discussionand the dynamic.
And I'll give you a for example.
So one of my clients struggleswith her CEO, boss, and so she
(13:09):
ends up walking away fromconversations feeling like, you
know, she's not doing somethingright, that he doesn't value her
work, that he doesn't value herperspective.
So there's the story she walksaway from those interactions
with.
When we look at it from anissue perspective, it's what's
the actual issue?
Well, the issue for her is thatshe's actually not getting to a
place of clarity and alignmentwith her CEO because he
(13:31):
struggles to define things in away that's clear, and so he'll
give her information or he'llgive her a reaction, but he
doesn't actually get into reallysitting down and talking
through it with her in a waythat they can connect on it, and
then she feels like she cantake it away, lead and be
successful in that environment.
So as we navigate that, it'sher changing her perspective
(13:51):
about what it is that she thinksher boss should be doing for
her and looking at what do Ineed to do to lead myself in
this situation?
How do I stop judging him?
And then, all of a sudden, it'snot about the conflict she
doesn't have to fix, somethingthat's going on between her or
her boss.
It's these little things thatwe start to sort of adjust
around our interpretation of theevent, our expectation of
(14:12):
someone else's behavior, our ownbelief about what our role is
in this dynamic.
And then what can we start tointroduce?
And so she's now introducinglots of different structures and
processes and to make sure thatshe's getting to what she needs
to.
And she's leading him throughthat process to support him, but
ultimately to support her ownsuccess and her own sense of
(14:36):
satisfaction and well-being inthe role that she's in.
And so there was no bigconversation.
To Anne's point, there was nosort of you know, we gotta pound
our fists and duke somethingout here.
From that perspective, it'slike there's an issue, but let's
name the issue.
Let's really get clear aboutthe issue.
Let's like there's an issue,but let's name the issue.
Let's really get clear aboutthe issue.
Let's separate out what's goingon in us and our interpretation,
our judgments, our emotionsthat are all clouding it, and
(14:59):
then look at sort of some of thedifferent things we can try.
And there's trial and errorwith some of this, especially at
the leadership level, like ifyou can try something, I often
will say to clients look, yougot to be prepared for the first
three no's, right?
So because we're getting got toget past those first three no's
to get to the S, and so changeyour mindset, because a lot of
the what we create ourselveswe're not always aware of what
(15:21):
we're bringing into thesituation that's actually
expanding or extending what isactually going on and again
leaving us feeling powerless.
And we don't want leaders tofeel powerless in any situation
that they're in.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
Both of you have given a lot to unpack.
I will lean into behaviorchange first.
It's notoriously verychallenging for behavior change,
for most human beings to changethis thing that I may have have
gotten me to the pivotal pointof being in a leadership role,
of being in an executive role,and all of a sudden, dynamics
have changed, changed,requirements have changed, the
organization has changed and nowyou're asking me, after 15
(15:55):
years or 20 years of doing itthis way, to change my behavior.
What have you done in the pastthat's helped people be able to
navigate through this change ofmy behavior?
Speaker 3 (16:04):
To reference a point that Heather brought up earlier
around managing expectations,when you understand how quote
unquote lazy our brains actuallyare, it's they're wired to do
the same thing that they'vealways done, because when we try
and do something different, thebrain goes on high alert.
(16:25):
It's like what the heck's goingon here and why are you wanting
me to do this?
And I feel incompetent and Idon't know how I'll look if I do
it this different way.
And so if we don't expect thatit will take time and that we
have to be patient andcompassionate and supportive
with ourselves during a changeprocess and we don't buy our own
(16:47):
script around hey, this is hardand it doesn't need to change
anyway.
Script around hey, this is hardand it doesn't need to change
anyway, that may you know.
We see we can step slowly out ofour resistance and build those
new neural pathways thatultimately make new things
easier for us.
But it's an expectingresistance and normalizing
(17:07):
resistance and being patientwith oneself that leaders in
general don't have a lot of timefor, and so that's why they'll
say, okay, everyone else canchange, but we really don't need
to.
I don't have time for this.
I don't have time to change mybehavior.
But you can, because that's areally good idea what you're
proposing.
(17:28):
We've had so many clients whowill do this, but the brain
wants to stay the same.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
And you're absolutely right too, when you think of it
, Ann is we do expect theworkforce to change sooner than
we change, but there's justleaders go first.
So if you want the change tohappen, then you've got to model
it sometimes.
So I'm glad you're leaning intothat.
How does the leader show up inthat space?
Anything you want to add tothat, Heather?
Speaker 4 (17:52):
Yeah, I think one of the things we sort of treat
behavioral change is thisintellectual exercise where it's
like, ok, I think I need tobehave like X, but right now I'm
behaving like Y and so I'lljust flip the switch and
suddenly it'll happen.
Right.
And as opposed to reallyunderstanding, where you know
what is actually required for usas human beings around
behavioral change, obviouslymotivation we have to want to
(18:14):
change.
It's got to be part of it.
But one of the things that wefind works the best is thinking
about how do we do it for, howdo we do it with, how do we do
it in a way that supports?
And so it's not so simple assaying just go and we're going
(18:38):
to make.
That's like we recognize thatthe best behavioral change comes
, like the most effective waycomes when we're actually in and
those leaders are beingsupported.
They're having their hands held.
Sometimes the behavior is beingdone for them first, so they
can see it.
Because we have a lot ofclients who have grown up in
their organizations and theyonly know what they know.
So now you say, well, we haveto behave differently in this
environment.
It's like, well, you lookaround and it's like, well, what
does that look like?
I don't even know what thatmeans.
And so how do we give them thehelp that they actually need?
(19:00):
Because there is this tendencyof leaders to think they can do,
because they're smart people,they think they can do
everything, and then they runthe risk of not being able to
follow through on the behavioralchange.
The other thing we look at iswhat's the system or process
that supports the behavioralchange, because a lot of the
times is that, you know, we justtalk about the behavioral
change but we don't say, okay,well, what's the system I need
(19:22):
around me to support me tosustain that?
So, whether that'saccountability so someone's
holding me accountable, or I'mputting in new meetings or touch
points, or I've got a new formto work from that I use to
follow, to really practice andingrain this new behavior, and
so there's a lot of pieces andtools that go into it.
And I do think that whereleaders, especially at the
(19:45):
executive level, where theydon't want to be touched and
they don't want to be helped inthat way and they think they can
do it all on their own, andhaving them work through just
that piece of the resistance toallow themselves to be supported
in a way that really gets themto that behavioral change that's
necessary.
That's one of the first piecesof the work that we're typically
(20:07):
doing is to get them warmed upand ready so that they can be
helped through this process.
Speaker 3 (20:12):
Doing is to get them warmed up and ready so that they
can be helped through thisprocess.
And just to add to Heather'spoint about leaders they often
don't know what they don't knowrelative to what's being
expected of them from abehavioral change, and so the
whole topic of employeeengagement, for example.
They immediately go to well,what am I supposed to do?
Ask all of my employees whatthey did on the weekend, or take
(20:33):
them out for coffee, and we canmake assumptions that they
actually know what we're talkingabout, because they will never
say to you I have no idea whatyou're asking me to do here with
this behavioral change, becausethey should know.
It's a fundamental belief ofI'm a good leader.
(20:53):
I should know, and therefore Ican't ask any questions about
what's being expected of me now.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
Yeah, I think you're spot on.
Both of you are as far as like.
What are the expectations?
How do you be able to make theshift across the board and ask
for help and leaders are.
It's very difficult when youget to the executive level to
say what you don't know, becausethere's this unwritten
expectation that you should knowand I think the language they
tie around.
That is like this impostersyndrome, especially if you're
in a room full of other CEOs.
You definitely are not going toshowcase what you don't know in
(21:22):
that space because it justdoesn't feel safe.
Let's shift a little bit.
You're in the business, I'm anentrepreneur, so I want to speak
to the entrepreneurs on thisparticular piece and you're in
business as a family and you'rewomen.
What are some of the challenges?
First of all, for workingtogether as family, but also
coming up and building abusiness as a woman in the
business, there are challenges.
Can you speak to the familypart?
What are some things youlearned along the way as a
(21:43):
family and what are some thingsyou've done really, really well
to work better together asfamily?
Speaker 4 (21:49):
I'll start that one off.
Anne and I have a little bit ofa different backstory because
Anne's my biological mother andshe gave me up for adoption when
I was born, so I was raised inan adopted family and Anne and I
reunited when I was 28.
And we actually started ourbusiness together three years
later, so we were actually stillforging our relationship.
(22:10):
I'm 28 when Anne and I met, soI wasn't really looking for a
mother, so we were actuallystill forging our relationship.
I'm 28 when Anna and I met, soI wasn't really looking for a
mother, so we were trying tofigure out what that
relationship the personalrelationship was gonna be.
But we had this clearconnection and common ground
around the work we were doing.
I was doing it in organizations, helping organizations to
achieve their potential.
She was working individuallywith leaders and we just saw
(22:32):
this huge opportunity to bringthese two pieces together and
forge a path jointly, and so westarted our business 26 years
ago.
So it's been a different kind ofjourney than, I think, most
other mother daughters, becauseyou know, I didn't have the
whole teenage angst with mymother, so, but we did have to
figure out what was this allgoing to be, and I think that
(22:54):
was really helpful for us bothas entrepreneurs and in our
relationship, is we had to be alittle bit more definitive
around what we wanted, what wasgoing to work, what wasn't going
to work, having to sort of youknow there was a little bit of
trial and error around it sortof you know there was a little
bit of trial and error around it, without a doubt.
But I think, as any entrepreneur, you're having to look at you
(23:16):
yourself and your role in thebusiness and what it is that
you're looking for from it as anindividual, and what's that
separation of you from yourbusiness?
And again, as consultants too,it's also different, because our
businesses are expertise and sothere's a lot in there where
some of the things that I know Ilearned really had to increase
my level of self-awareness.
I had to increase my level ofemotional astuteness, my
(23:40):
emotional IQ for sure, in orderto be able to navigate it,
because it's not a familydynamic, because it's a business
and yet there's familyrelational pieces to it, and so
the more you can be aware of andbe able to move into some of
these honest conversations asyou go through and as you grow
through, because 26 yearstogether.
(24:00):
There was a lot of growing wewere doing through this process
of being entrepreneurs andrunning our business, and so I
think that those are a couple ofthings that I would lead off of
, and then Em can maybe talkabout the whole women in
business side of it a bit morethan I did.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Thank you for transparency.
You're right, it is a differentrelationship, but I know that
there's someone listening thatunderstands and say, hey, man,
thanks for sharing that.
Even with a different daughtermother relationship later on in
life, you share something thatmost people don't naturally hear
.
When you're on stage or whenyou're in a room and there's
someone paying attention to thisand say how do I do it, how do
I navigate so I get it?
We have a teenager at home.
So that does change thoserelationships because they're
(24:36):
trying to figure out and you'retrying to just keep them in the
guidelines and with theguidepost up.
So thank you for sharing.
So, anne, what do you add to it?
I mean, as far as therelationship or women in
business, where do you want togo at with it?
Speaker 3 (24:47):
Well, a couple of things that come to mind around.
This is one of the things thatall partners, regardless of
whether it's a marriage or abusiness partnership, whatever
is that the challenges ofbecoming a we and navigating
your individual agendaespecially if you have an
(25:07):
entrepreneurial brain becauseyou want to just run with your
own idea and doing that in thecontext of building a
relationship with two differentapproaches to working that
Heather and I had.
There was a lot of navigatingthat without at first having the
language to talk about it, andHeather and I co-created a
(25:31):
personality system called thestriving styles, and it was
through that period of timewhere we really dug down into
recognizing how different ourbrains are, how different our
needs are in terms of what ourneed satisfiers at work and in
relationships are, which reallyhelped us move ahead in our
(25:53):
relationship and give it, youknow, giving us more space to do
our individual thing within thecontext of the we that we had
created together.
It's a very challenging thing.
To your point of you know, bothof our styles are relatively
conflict avoidant, so it wasn'tthat we loved conflict and we
didn't have that familialfoundation of you know.
(26:16):
Well, I'm your mother andyou're going to do what I say or
I'm the daughter you have to.
Let me have my way.
You know there wasn't any ofthat there.
It was simply navigating ittogether.
And in terms of being aconsultant and an entrepreneur,
as a woman, you know, I've hadan experience, you know, working
(26:37):
with a group of engineers, forexample, where I have said to
them I would not be in this roomwith you if I wasn't a
consultant, because you have nowomen on your leadership team,
because you'll take advice fromme, sort of, and you'll let me
help you, because you'll takeadvice from me, sort of, and
you'll let me help you, but youwill not let me be a part of it.
And that was very eye-opening.
And I think, to some degree, weare able to make really find
(27:03):
our own runway withmale-dominated businesses like
the ones that we've worked inengineering, construction and
everything, mining, things likethat, because of the way we
approach things, because of ourown personality types.
So it's sort of taking thewe're women and we're telling
(27:25):
you men, this it's no, we areshowing you what is possible for
you should you decide to adoptthese behaviors or these
practices in your business.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
I mean I totally agree.
I mean, at some point you knowit's not what you walk in the
door with, but you're aware thatit's there, but you have an
expertise and a service toprovide to help them get better.
And so as you think aboutentrepreneur I love that you say
you know if you're anentrepreneur you have these
brains that kind of have thisagenda, that what you want to
get accomplished and overcomingthat as you do the work that you
do.
The other question I have thatcame to mind as you were
(27:59):
speaking leaning in forward,trust is at an all-time low
across our society and at somepoint you have to build that to
be an entrepreneur or a team ora partner.
How do you help leaders thatare listening, that are
struggling with establishingtrust with the people that they
lead and keeping it long-term?
Speaker 4 (28:16):
It's a really good question.
It's funny too, because it'snot something that I would have
said, you know, I was reallyconscious of how do I get my
clients to trust me, how do Iget my clients to follow me.
But it's something that, as aresult of kind of who I am, how
I behave, who Anne is, how shebehaves, that we've fostered,
that A lot of our clients workfor us for in some of them,
(28:37):
decades We've been with them.
They've maybe changedorganizations and they bring us
along.
I have a client recently whoabsolutely hates consultants and
yet I'm in there working withthem, and so I think part of it
is there's a lot that's gone onwhere and we see it too where
ego is so much about and notnecessarily ego from that look
(28:59):
at me and look at how great I am, but almost from that place of
ego I don't want people to seeme or I don't want people not to
like me or I don't.
You know I have to behave in aparticular way and so some of
the behavior that comes for thatpeople pick up really quickly
when they don't feel like theirleader is genuine or they don't
feel like their leader is reallyable to sort of lead them and
(29:21):
give them something that theycan follow or a place that they
can belong to.
And from that perspective,where we watch some of our
clients who just struggle tosort of show up and so their
staff really feel that vacuumaround them.
And trust me, I'm not talkingabout being relational or being,
you know, touchy feely, becauseevery one of my clients will
(29:43):
tell you that's not what I amand it's got a similar brain
style.
We're logical, we're objective,we're sort of very left brain
as females, and so I'm notsaying it from that oh, you got
to get in, you got to reallyknow these people and you got to
, you know, spend a whole bunchof time with it.
It's there's something elsewhere allowing people to feel
like they're safe, that they'reheard, that someone is thinking
(30:05):
about them and where we're goingwith things, and it doesn't
have to be sort of on a bigscale, and I think we've lost
some of that.
I think I know leaders that Iwork with where they're not
really thinking about that placeof.
Do my staff feel like I'mgiving them something to follow,
something to anchor them,something where they feel safe?
And so that ambiguity, I think,is a huge challenge for us as a
(30:30):
society across the board, and Ithink that people are more
likely, because they've gotlanguage today to put to words
like psychological safety andbullying and harassment, but
they don't really quiteunderstand it.
And so, you know, there's justsomething in there where leaders
have to show up and just showup and be solid in saying this
(30:52):
is it, this is the direction.
You know, this is what you canexpect, this is what I expect of
you.
That's where the safety andsecurity comes from, and I think
we're missing that to a greatdegree, and hence the reason why
we do the work we do right islike we're the ones you know,
(31:14):
know like you and your wife aredoing is we know and understand
the importance of leaders in allof this, and not just in
organizations, but also in theirrollover into how they impact
out in society as well.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
I mean you're hitting on everything that I think is
going to benefit people that arelistening is that thing of
leaders showing up and providingthis safe space and know that
you're going to be taken care of.
So I can take some risk.
You know anything you add tothat, anne?
Speaker 3 (31:31):
Yeah, I was thinking about.
You know, leaders too get thewrong idea because of what's
being imposed on them, asHeather said, about the notion
that they're responsible fortheir employees' psychological
safety, and they get some ideathat they have to tend to
employees' emotions Anxiety, forexample.
An employee will say, oh, thisis making me so anxious, I'm
(31:55):
feeling so overwhelmed.
And instead of the leadersaying, okay, you know, I see
that you're feeling that way.
Let's unpack what's going onwith you so that we can sort out
those triggers and we can takea step-by-step approach to your
work in a way that's notgenerating anxiety.
(32:17):
But instead what they do is aclient of mine, for example,
when her direct report came incrying because she was
overwhelmed and she sent herhome for the rest of the day
instead of delving into what isthe actual issue.
Nice way to get a half a day off, right, but it doesn't help
(32:38):
when we're over focusing onemotions and not really helping
the employee to manage anddeveloping in them the skill for
themselves to say what'striggering this.
I can master my job, I know howto do this and not let emotions
get in the way.
But when leaders have this ideathat they have to be therapists
(33:02):
or counselors or tend toemotions, then there's reduced
productivity and it becomesreally problematic, because if
you've got one person doing itand that become you know they're
allowed to make emotions themain event, then other people
are going to start doing it too.
Speaker 2 (33:21):
Yes, yes, I think you hit on something.
That's super important, though,anne, is there is this
unwritten, unspoken expectationthat leaders have to be coaches
or therapists or counselors,because when that shows up, the
easiest way is to let them gohome and you don't have to deal
with it.
But isn't there an expectationthat a leader is going to have
to have some level of coachingability to unpack I love that
(33:42):
you used the word too, anne, shedropped it in for us unpacked,
so thank you for that.
But is there some level that Ithink leaders coming aboard now
have to have some level ofability to coach or counsel not
necessarily be therapists, butan ability to unpack what's
happening versus send peoplehome.
Speaker 4 (33:58):
Absolutely, and it's what we say is separating out
what's the issue and what's thefeeling.
Right, you know we can't solvefor emotions, and that means I
can't solve for my employeesemotions, that's not my
responsibility.
And so what do I need to do toboundary it?
It's like, okay, clearly you'reupset, take a moment, take a
deep breath and then let'sproblem solve.
Let's problem solve what we can.
(34:19):
But, but part of it is again Ican think about my 20 year old
self as a leader going.
I don't want your emotions,don't cry around me.
What are you doing?
I, you know it's like what doyou?
This is a workplace, yeah, so Ihad to build tolerance.
Like I'm, like most leaders islike you have to build tolerance
for the emotions of others, andthat's the full spectrum of
(34:40):
emotions that people might bring.
But it doesn't mean I have togo in and go.
Oh, you know, you poor thing.
It's like what can we do foryou and how can we take care of
you?
Because that's not our jobleading right, it's I'm not
their mother, so it's not myresponsibility, I'm not their
counselor, I'm not theirtherapist.
But from a workplace perspective, I need to understand what is
the issue that we need to solvefor in the workplace so that my
(35:03):
employee can be productive, myteam can be productive, and then
we can achieve the results thatwe need to achieve.
And if it is to that point whereit's not something that is
resolvable, because it'ssomething happening in their
personal life, there areemployee programs, there are
other community supports that wecan direct people to, but still
the expectation is held that weneed to resolve this because
(35:25):
the work needs to be done, andI'm not, my job is not to cater,
but I can tell you, I have somany clients and in the same
boat where we have so manyclients that cannot tolerate the
emotions of others, and sobecause of that, we see it too
on the other side.
Sorry, just I think aboutemployees who can't tolerate
their managers expressingfrustration, irritation.
(35:46):
It gets like, oh, you know,they're being so mean to us and
it's like, no, no, no, they'refrustrated and they're irritated
.
It's like everybody's trying tocontrol the emotions so much
and we don't have that abilityto just say, hey, we're human,
so emotional expression isappropriate.
But now we need to move pastthat emotional expression and
figure out what we need to do toget the job done.
Speaker 2 (36:10):
I mean great way to explain it and I think you know
a good part of where we are inthe program now is the tolerance
.
I love that you say I had towork on my own tolerance for
this because I didn't reallywant to deal with it, and I
think leaders have to be okay,being human, because we feel
like we got to get it right allthe time.
And you're not going to get itright all the time, and if I do,
I'm probably going to be alittle leery of them.
So be human and understand thatyou got things you got to work
on as well, so you're doing thebusiness that you do.
(36:32):
What are the reasons?
As you think about yourorganization and the people that
are listening to this podcast,I want to be able to make sure
people know when to pick up thephone and call you or send your
email.
What are some things that willbe happening in companies that
say, hey, pick up the phone,reach out to Anna Heather you
can start Heather that one, ourfavorite one, is you're
complaining, you're complaining,you're complaining to your
Speaker 4 (36:52):
co-workers, you're complaining to your spouse,
you're complaining to yourfriends is like you're.
If you're in a leadership roleand you find that so much of
your energy is going intocomplaining about your staff,
your boss, your co-workers,that's a sign.
That's a sign that somethinghas stalled out for you and
you're stuck and that you needsupport in order to move through
(37:13):
whatever those challenges are.
So that would be a really goodopportunity.
The other thing would befrustration.
So where we see a lot of ourclients are frustrated with they
can't get their employees to dosomething or they can't get
their you know, it's a lot ofcases, especially at the
executive level.
It's like their direct reportsor their team isn't quite
(37:34):
delivering what they need to be.
And the third one is againwhere we see a lot in the
organizations that we work withwhere they're trying to grow but
they're really finding there'ssomething misaligned between the
leaders, the people and theambition of the organization and
it's not moving as quickly asthe senior leaders want it to
(37:55):
expect it to.
So it would be sort of thosethree sort of pieces for us are
typically why our clients cometo us.
And that's what we do.
We go in and we work with themto help them solve for the
actual issues, so that they canget unstuck individually as
leaders or collectively as anorganization.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
And I'll continue in a second over there.
And if you listen to theentrepreneur, if you're not
solving the problem, then you'reprobably going to be in trouble
as an entrepreneur.
So you want to focus on theproblem solving piece of it
we're not exempt from asentrepreneurs or leaders, but
you know, as Annie Heathertalked about it, they're always
going.
What's the problem?
So, entrepreneurs, if you'relistening, be very, very clear
on the problems you solve, sopeople will be interested in
(38:34):
bringing you into theorganization.
What would you add to it, Anne?
As far as what are the thingsthat you see you're getting the
calls for?
Speaker 3 (38:49):
What's happening in organizations channel of people
that might be coming to mespecifically is we have female
leaders who blame themselvesbecause their employees are
complaining about them, and thatthey are willing to because of
their own self-image, they'rewilling to take on the
responsibility and think thatthe problem is theirs, that
they're been accused of beingmean or they're not
understanding enough,particularly in female leaders
(39:10):
who there really is more of anexpectation that they act like
mothers as opposed to leaders,and those who suffer from the
imposter syndrome where they arewilling to believe that they
aren't good enough and that,even though they have earned the
right through their work to beat the table, they're still, you
(39:33):
know, bringing coffee andcookies and whatever else to the
board meetings and so that sortof client stream, especially
with women.
There are some men who sufferfrom this as well, but more
women who just have such a lowestimate of themselves and they
are seeking the approval ofothers instead of just showing
(39:57):
up with their own authority andowning their place at the table.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
Yes, you're spot on.
Thank you for saying it too.
I mean because you'reabsolutely right.
How do you show up, have yourvoice in the room and I will
tell you that even as a man,I'll know 6% of it and like I
know 100% of it and how do youget where that's your space to
be able to have those realconversations without calling
anybody out, but really having areal conversation?
So I'm glad that you hit on thewomen piece of it, how you show
up when they should call you,because you're right.
(40:23):
I mean we tend to want to forwomen to listen, to show up in
this place like a motherlyfigure when you really have
earned the right to be a leader.
So I can be a little bit moreabrasive or aggressive If a
woman is it?
There's some bad names that'scalled or some things that said
that's inappropriate.
How do you balance the playingfield where you can still be a
phenomenal, assertive leaderwithout getting a bad rap?
But I think, women, if youlisten to that and you're trying
(40:44):
to figure that out, you got twowomen on the screen that you
can reach out to say hey, here'swhere I'm struggling.
I'm in this role, but I'mhaving a really hard time and
I'm tired of bringing cookiesand coffee.
I want to be seen as a leaderin the room, so perfect
opportunity.
What's the best way to reachyou if someone's interested in
having a further conversationabout the services you offer?
Speaker 4 (41:02):
Our website, drannitsaris-hill Durant at
Saris hyphen Hilliard dot com,and hopefully you'll put that in
the show notes so that it'seasy for people to pick up and
spell.
Everything's there All of theresources, information about the
books that Anne and I havewritten, striving Styles,
personality System, as Annetalked about, access to connect
with us directly throughLinkedIn, but it's all there in
one place.
So opportunity to learn alittle bit more about some of
(41:23):
the things we do, the resourceswe have to offer, our YouTube
channel, et cetera, all in oneplace.
So that's Duran at Sarah'shyphen Hilliardcom.
Speaker 2 (41:32):
Awesome, awesome.
Thank you for sharing Anythingyou want to leave the audience
with.
I mean anything.
You want to say great wisdom,any nuggets, anything jumping
out that you want to say, hey,well, I didn't get to say this.
Is there anything you want toleave the audience with?
Speaker 3 (41:49):
One of the books that Heather and I wrote is called
so you Think you Can Lead, andit's specifically from this more
systematic, programmaticapproach to leading employees
and knowing how to behave atevery stage of the employee
development cycle, not justthinking that you should be able
(42:09):
to just show up and be a greatleader, because that's what
leaders aspire to.
I'm a great leader.
Nobody can tell me anythingbecause I'm great, but this book
has it all relative to.
There are things all leadersknow how to do well, and then
there are the things that aremore difficult, and this is a
(42:30):
how to book for leadershipdevelopment and a resource guide
for, oh my God, this is goingon.
I need to go back to my book,because employees are behaving
this way.
I need to know, I need sometips, tips In the absence of
(42:50):
having a coach.
And to what you said earlierabout all of these senior
leaders if you're a group ofsenior athletes professional
athletes every one of them wouldhave a coach, but senior
leaders don't see it the sameway, and that's a mindset that
needs to change, because everyday is different for leaders.
Speaker 2 (43:05):
Absolutely, and thank you for dropping the book so
you think you can lead.
Y'all heard it.
I think all of us can read that.
There are days when I think Ican.
The other days I'm like how didthey pick me so I get it?
You know, I've had some really,really great success stories to
share, but I also got somefailures that I could share as
well, where I didn't get itright.
21 years.
I became a leader very young,about 22 years old.
I had no business leading atthat time, I just knew my job
(43:27):
well.
I was still trying to figureout how to get my own bed made,
you know.
So I would say that it's ajourney.
Put some people around you, beokay with not knowing everything
, and there'll be people.
Give people opportunity to holdyou accountable and help you
grow.
Both of you have beenphenomenal.
So thank you for joining, thankyou for really talking about
all of the things that youshared and, for those of you
that are following the podcast,we release a podcast every
(43:49):
Monday with different leadersfrom around the globe and the
fun part about it is we justunpack the conversation.
So hopefully you found somevalue in this.
Reach out to the team.
Of course, this will be in theshow notes, so you'll have it.
And again, this is Ron Harveyand we're signing off, and thank
you all for joining us foranother episode of Unpacked with
Ron Harvey, and until next time, we will see you on another
podcast with another leader fromaround the globe.
Speaker 1 (44:12):
We hope you enjoyed this edition of Turning Point
Leadership with your host, RonHarvey.
We're so glad you joined us.
Remember to join us every firstand third Mondays and expect to
receive real answers for realleadership challenges.
Until next time, make adifference where you are and
with what you have.
There are those who arecounting on you for effective
(44:36):
leadership.
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