September 29, 2025 • 29 mins
Ron Harvey explores leadership principles with Joe Davis, a 37-year BCG veteran who shares insights on authentic leadership and balancing career with family life. Together they unpack how leaders can build stronger teams by showing genuine care while maintaining accountability.
• Leaders work for their people, not the other way around
• Never save feedback for performance reviews – deliver it in the moment
• Showing you care gives you permission to be direct and challenging
• The most effective leaders are comfortable saying "I don't know"
• Create family traditions and prioritize important events to balance work/life
• Ask questions and listen genuinely to navigate generational differences
• Vulnerability is strength – asking questions shows you value others' perspectives
• Executive presence comes from authentic confidence, not pretending to know everything
• During chaos, a leader's job is to provide calm confidence and draw out the best ideas
Check out Joe Davis's book "The Generous Leader: Seven Ways to Give of Yourself for Everyone's Gain" available on Amazon and all major booksellers.
Connect with Ron
Just Make A Difference: Leading Under Pressure by Ron Harvey
“If you don’t have something to measure your growth, you won’t be self-aware or intentional about your growth.”
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Unpacked Podcast with your host
leadership consultant, ronHarvey of Global Core Strategies
and Consulting.
Ron believes that leadership isthe fundamental driver towards
making a difference.
So now to find out more of whatit means to unpack leadership,
here's your host, ron Harvey.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Well, hello everyone.
This is Ron Harvey, Once againcoming to you with Unpacked,
always bringing guests fromeverywhere.
Of course, if you follow us,you know I'm a wife and I own a
leadership development firm andwe spend a lot of time really
helping leaders be betterconnected to the people that
they're responsible for andresponsible to.
And I'll tell you, I learnedthat in my military experience
that, no matter how you gotpromoted, you were always
(00:41):
working for your people.
You were responsible for yourpeople and you have to serve
your people.
And that was an awakeningmoment because most of us, once
we get there, we think ourpeople work for us.
Yeah, the military flipped thatupside down and I had to learn
a different way of leading.
So we love what we do, we enjoyit, but we always pause and do
our podcast, and this podcast isreally with guests from around
the world with all kinds ofbackgrounds, and you already
(01:02):
know we don't know what thequestions are going to be, but
we're going to have a good time.
We're going to talk leadership.
Our goal is for you to walkaway with something that you
stay with us for 20 minutes, youhave fun with us and you learn
something that you can make youa better leader and take better
care of your people.
So I'm excited to have JoeDavis.
He's joining us.
We already having fun in funhere, live with you in person.
So, joe, let me let youintroduce yourself.
(01:23):
Whatever you want to say aboutyou will totally fine, but I let
all of my guests introducethemselves, because who knows
you better than you?
Speaker 3 (01:31):
Thank you, ron, and it's great to be here and
actually let me just start.
I was excited to hear you saythat you know leaders have to
remember they're actuallyserving the people they're
working for.
But what's the shame is ittakes a lot of leaders a long
time to learn that.
You said it flipped over whenyou got in the most senior roles
in the military.
The sooner our leaders figurethat out, the better off they're
going to be and the better offtheir teams will be.
(01:51):
Well, thanks for having me.
You got my name, joe Davis.
I worked for a company calledBCG or the Boston Consulting
Group for 37 years, long time.
In this day and age I alwayslike to say I have four children
and number nine grandchild onthe way Makes it something very
important to me.
I had a hell of a career andstarted my job at Procter and
work well, started my work lifeas a paper boy you know doing
(02:13):
that, doing that for six yearsand then at Procter and Gamble
as a sales rep, which wasinteresting.
We can talk more about it, buteven that very first job, going
in and out, selling you knowshampoo and you know deodorant
was a huge learning experienceand the first leadership role.
There was a real big learningexperience, especially because I
was like 25 and scared to death.
You know you were, you were theboss or you were serving people
(02:36):
.
You were just trying to figureout what you're doing every day.
And then, as I said that bcg, Ihad a pretty good run.
Eventually ran mentioned theGrand Darts America for BCG and
started some offices along theway and the like.
So it's a fun career, greatcareer.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Yeah, and you're still smiling and you're still
having fun with it.
I mean, we're in the green room, we're having fun, we're
laughing and really watchingleaders that sometimes get to
that level.
They forget how to just be ahuman being.
You know how do you just havefun and not take yourself so
serious.
You got a fancy title, but whoare you if you didn't have that
title?
So we'll talk about all of that.
Let's go into the question,though you mentioned it earlier,
(03:10):
if you don't mind, Joe atProcter Gamble, you know your
first leadership role at 25.
What were some of the lessonslearned?
Because you know at 25, youthink you got all the answers
and you got to do everythingyourself.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
Yeah, you know, I'll tell you.
I have a very important lessonlearned that stuck with me the
rest of my life and I used toride.
It's about development andtraining, helping others grow.
I used to ride with my guys.
I had three sales reps.
Two of them were career salesreps, that's all, and then one
was a management track personand these guys were 40 or 38.
I thought they were really old,you know cause?
I wasn't that age, obviouslynot that old.
(03:44):
You know, I'd ride with themevery two weeks and I was scared
to death to tell them anythingabout what they should do
differently.
I mean, what did I know?
Just what I learned in thetraining manual.
So that was funny, because thenit came to year-end review and I
wrote out everything I thoughtthey should do that I had
noticed over the year that Ididn't say to them ever and I
was going through this review,it's a guy named Rich, and Rich
(04:05):
I started launching in and blah,blah, blah and he cuts me off
after two minutes.
He says wait a minute, joe, Ithink a few swear words in there
.
I said what the heck?
You write me every two weeksand you've never said any of
these things, like what the hellis your job?
You can imagine at 25, I do notremember how I react, I just
remember being mortified.
You can imagine at 25, I do notremember how I react, I just
(04:27):
remember being mortified Like,oh my gosh, I'm sure how I
danced out of that.
And then, after Rich left, mymanager at the time, my boss,
said Joe, never again do youwrite a review where they
haven't heard every word that'sgoing to be written or every
idea that's going to be writtenon that review.
You know that was a powerfullesson.
I was scared.
You know.
You said some people think theyknow everything and or they're
scared, which is maybe why theythink they know everything,
(04:48):
because that's a way to coverthe fear I was afraid to tell.
But the interesting thing washe was looking for me, 25 year
old kid, to give him feedbackand share what I knew, instead
of saying well, you know, justignore me.
So why didn't you tell me allthis stuff?
It was a really powerful lessonat a very young age.
Actually, I kind of believe inwhen lessons punch you in the
face, you tend to remember thema little better.
(05:10):
I was embarrassed.
Let's just say I wasembarrassed.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Yes, yeah.
So, joe, when you think aboutit for someone, that's where you
were back in that 25, they weremore senior.
What drives them?
Fear?
Because someone's listening.
That's in that exact positiontoday and they're themselves
with stories that's not true.
Speaker 3 (05:25):
I think there's several things.
I think one is, of course, I'm25 and they're 40, so there's a
little bit wrapped up in that,unless you're really, really
cocky, but you know.
So that's part, but I think thebigger thing was what you said
a minute ago.
You think you know it all, oryou think you're supposed to
know it all.
Yes, and the truth is you don'tand you know you don't.
(05:46):
So now you're kind of stuck.
Wait, can I show I don't know itall, but I'm not supposed to do
that.
But if I don't show that, howcan I tell this guy anything?
Honestly, you know, I think youjust wrap up in this fear of
I'm supposed to have all theanswers, but of course I don't.
And who am I?
Therefore, I'm supposed to beable to train this guy, but what
(06:09):
if I'm a little bit wrong?
That I'm wrong, you know.
I think that's the fear thatpeople get wrapped up in.
And it's very interestingbecause that guy, that 40 year
old sales rep, said come on, getover yourself and coach me.
Yes, but that's what he wastelling me.
Absolutely, people want to getbetter at what they do.
Most people, you know, theywant to get better at what they
do and your job is to help themget there.
And to be run around scared isnot helping anybody.
It's not helping you either, tobe honest.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
So once you got it and your boss talked to you,
what was your solution?
How did you navigate throughthat and go back and really
build back up and say, okay, Iget it, I owe this.
How did you recover?
Speaker 3 (06:41):
I have to say the recovery was over years, because
I probably did better the nexttime I rode with them.
I don't remember anymore,Though there was a lesson there
which was it's better to bedirect and tell something to
someone when you see it in themoment than not.
And if you're actually doing itbecause you care about them and
you want them to get better,you can get away with a lot of
(07:01):
unintentional kind of direct andharsh words.
And the thing that I did learnover time I was then known to be
very direct, very clear, givefeedback and give it in the
moment, but no one ever was,even if it was tough, no one was
angry with me, because theyknew I only wanted them to be
better.
I mean, why else would I do it?
So I think over time there wasindirect feedback.
(07:22):
Like you know, that was tough,but thank you because now I know
what I need to work on.
So you just got reinforcementthat actually telling people
what they need to hear is prettypowerful.
I'll tell you one other littlestory.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
This is later on maybe 10 years later I think.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
I was a brand new partner at PCG and we're doing a
session.
The steering committee meetingwith the client and all the
executive suite was in there andone of the guys was and he said
the word like one of my guys.
He said the word like everyother word and you know, you
just don't say like in theC-suite, you just don't do that.
You can say it when you're 17or around the house maybe if you
(07:59):
want, but you don't say it inthe C-suite, so they don't say
it this easy.
So we finished, everyone leftand we were debriefing.
I said to this guy I said, alex, how old are you?
So I'm 30.
I said you know, I don't think30-year-olds say like, no more
like, and I think I said it more, but I said it right in front
of the whole team.
I said and he's just like whoa.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
But he told me you know, several years later you so
you said something I want tounpack because some leaders
think that you know.
You said as long as you care,you can share real data.
How do you help leaders thatare listening that we were
(08:36):
taught Keep that.
Don't let them know you care.
Don't let them see you knowemotional like, because I was
taught like no, keep this stoicface.
Don't let them know that youcare about it.
Always be very stoic and verydirect and hard nose all the
time.
I don't practice it.
I was in uniform for 21 yearsand one of the comments I got
back was they know you care toomuch.
Yeah, would be effective.
And some people still thinkthat they can't show they care
(08:58):
about their people.
Speaker 3 (08:59):
Yeah, yeah, I know I was talking to one executive
Cisco woman and she in earlydays.
She said she cared about herpeople and some guy came up to
her and said you know you caretoo much.
You got to put some of thataway.
She said that wasn't me, Wasn'tgoing to do it and, by the way,
it didn't work out for him, soI might'll either.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
He wasn't around very long.
Speaker 3 (09:16):
So I think, sure, sure, but a couple of things let
me just say I think the worldhas changed like really changed.
I mean, he's a Jack Welch is agreat leader.
That's fine.
They're over.
The days of IBM white shirt,blue suit you're just a cog in
the wheel.
They're over.
You know technology has changedthat.
Now it's 24-7.
People have to bring theirhumanity to work, because it
(09:38):
works all the time.
You have to bring and they wantto see a human leader.
And then, if you add the socialmedia, all the stress that's
proven, that adds.
Now you've got people who areon all the time and, you know,
may have some level of stressabout themselves, the
organization, others, andthey're looking for you.
Know you when you smiled a bit,I'm not saying you have to be
(09:58):
nice all the time, but you'vegot to care about them.
And then you got the world ofpeople can quit easily,
especially if they're talented.
Now maybe it's a littletrickier today, but still, if
you're really good, you canswitch roles.
So they're looking for you tobring you humanity.
Technology's driven it.
I think the idea of being stoic,the thing you have to remember,
is you're just trying to makethem perform better, so
(10:19):
everything performs better.
I mean, you know I'm not sayingbe nice, and if it doesn't work
and you fail, you get to stayin the job.
You know you have to deliverresults.
I'm not saying you don'tdeliver results.
You might have seen there was aGallup poll survey out the
other day 3 million.
They surveyed and they saidthat one of the bunch of
questions, someone cares aboutme.
It's one of the questionspeople they asked and that's now
(10:42):
39% of the people it used to be50% felt someone in the
workforce cares about them.
Wow, you know that.
Yeah, I know One third.
The other two thirds don't.
So I will say one thing I thinkif you want to be an
exceptional leader, I think youactually have an edge up if you
actually show you care.
You still got to deliver.
You still have to have insight.
You still have to, but if youhave an edge up over, you know
(11:03):
whoever's leading.
The other 65% of those peopleyes.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
Yes, I love it.
I mean that you said it, joe,because one of the things I
always talk about when I'm withmy team or out in public or
working with our clients is PNR.
And I'm not talking publicrelations, I'm talking about you
must have performance.
You got to deliver, that's anexpectation, but then you got to
have healthy relationships withpeople.
People got to know that that ishealthy to be with you.
And I still need you to be heldaccountable.
(11:28):
And I tell everybody across theworld which is what you alluded
to is, hey, you've got todeliver, but you can be human
and you can take care of peopleand care about people and still
hold them accountable.
Matter of fact, they feel badif they let you down, if you
show you care about them.
Speaker 3 (11:40):
Well, yeah, I actually think you can be even
more direct, which is when youcare, when you push people to be
the best, you will deliver moreand they will deliver more.
So, actually, it does achievethe goals that you're trying to.
You know, if you think allabout, anyway, you know, I just
think I bet you, if someone,when I started writing my book
about it, someone said, well, doyou have any data that proves
(12:01):
that?
I said, well, it's kind of hardto prove, but you know you,
there's just countless storiesand or anecdotes and or just
data around.
The best leaders really helptheir people to perform at their
top level.
And to do that you have to.
You can be tough.
I'm not saying don't be tough,but if it's tough because you
want to be better, they'llfollow you.
(12:22):
Now, if you're an ass, ifyou're a jerk, that may not be
so good.
There's a level of twodifferent words.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
Man, yes, yes, and I think you're spot on for the
people that are listening, likesome people think that I gotta
be a jerk to people for them tolisten or I gotta I gotta like
yell and scream to our highest.
So I think there are peoplethat that respond to that, but I
think more people don't respondto that.
Speaker 3 (12:42):
People want to be respected but held accountable
yeah, you know, I tell you, sirjoaquin duato, he's ceo of
johnson Johnson Johnson, janeJacobs.
Yes, he was telling me how hemakes sure that he connects with
people and he doesn't yell atpeople.
He's not that kind of guy butin ways that they'll you know.
You said, well, some peoplemight respond.
I don't.
I think most people shut down.
I always you said the word some.
That wasn't it, but he said hewould actually, if something,
(13:11):
he'd bring a group of peopletogether and practice it and
then say, well, what did I say?
And he listened to the like.
He might say the wordtransformation.
And they'd say, well, you saidwe have to change.
He said, ah, so transformation,they didn't click in, but
change.
And he'd change his word tochange because that's their word
.
And then he'd ask them, well,what if you were telling you
know what I said to your, youknow your partner or your family
tonight at the dinner table,feedback what I said, and he'd
listen, take notes and he'dwrite it and read, adjust it, so
(13:33):
they'd connect with what he'ssaying.
You know, and that's the point,you could have a speech, you
can have this and that, but ifthey're not connecting with it,
I don't know how you're movingthem to do something differently
, you know, or inspiring them.
So that was pretty.
(13:54):
I mean, that was a verypractical way to actually make
sure your words are comingacross, and I'm sure if you're
well whatever a jerk wouldn't dothat.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Anyway, we're in the green room and I want to talk
about something because you'reat a high level.
You've been in 37 years, whichis unheard of for someone,
especially in today's time.
So congrats to that.
But one thing that we'retalking about in the room that I
would like you to unpack withus you managed to do your career
for that long and your familyis still super important.
You're spending time with yourfamily.
How do you help leaders thatwill listen to this that think
(14:21):
it's one or the other or they'respending all their time at work
and they forget that once theyretire, get to a certain age?
You didn't pay attention toyour family and it may not be
there because of the way.
How do you help people do that?
Well, because you shared in thegreen room and not all those
details you share in the greenroom.
Speaker 3 (14:41):
But how do you manage both?
Well, yeah, well, I thinkeverybody can have their own
model.
I'll tell you some of thethings I did.
One of the things I do believeis you have to like your work
and like what you're doing andfeel good about it.
If you don't, that'll come hometoo, and that might come even
if you're home all the time.
That'll come.
I come home worse so, even ifyou're working your rear off but
you love it, that comes home inenergy enthusiasm.
So I do think that's animportant thing.
(15:03):
My wife used to say, because I'ma consultant, I was gone four
days a week, probably 20 years.
She would say the day I thinkyou'd rather be gone than here
is the day we have a problem.
So you know, I never just tookoff.
I personally wanted to be home.
Now for me, I did justpractically a couple of things.
One thing I did do is I didn'tmiss, when the kids were little,
anything that they would thinkwas critical.
(15:24):
So you know, I could five, six,seven year olds they have a
show at night where they'resinging the songs or something I
would get on a plane at fouro'clock be there for the child,
see the thing get up at four inthe morning, be on the plane at
six and back at the client inthe morning.
I would not miss those things.
Now you had to pick which arethe most important ones.
You might miss some, but youknow, like my children, somehow
they said to me well, dad, youwere never gone, so let's go
(15:46):
four days a week.
And there was no FaceTime.
Back then they said, oh no, itfelt like you're always here.
So that's one thing is figureout what really matters, and
then you have to sacrifice yourtime.
That's just is if you love yourjob and your family to be there
.
We also did had traditions.
I mean, we always had dinner atthe table on Sunday night and
(16:08):
we had for a while there.
I made everyone dress up thatkind of old, but it was fun.
You know, we had Saturday nightmovies.
We all'd sit down there andeven when they're teenagers oh,
what about my friends?
No, we'll watch a movie, thenyou can go out.
So we built some traditions.
The stability, actually, maybethat's the I hadn't thought
about this until you just saidthat but the stability, ron,
that comes from kind oftraditions and patterns.
Then kids feel like, okay,you're here, you know if there's
(16:30):
no, if they don't know ifyou're here or there and you
know one moment or the next,that's probably makes it tougher
.
But that's what I did.
I did love my job.
I brought that energy home.
I made sure I made time forchildren.
We built traditions into thefamily and I also blurred my
kids.
I blurred as best I can work inlife.
You know my kids attended okay,halloween party in the office
(16:51):
they came.
You know, christmas party forkids in the office they came.
I was one of those kinds ofpeople and they loved it.
You know there's a long answerwith a few of my tips.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
I mean, they're very practical for people that are
listening.
You know, and I love thatyou're unpacking it and the
answers are solid.
So, even though letting youshare is important, because
someone listening trying tofigure it out, they're not
bringing them to the office,they're not getting on that
plane at four o'clock in themorning.
Use the word sacrifice.
Use sacrifice for both and Iwant people to really hear that.
On Unpacked, we make it lookeasy sometimes on our level, but
there are a lot of behind thescenes that you don't see.
(17:22):
That's why I call it Unpacked.
We make it look too easysometimes and we don't give you
the real recipe.
He's already told me what Joewas doing.
He made sure he had traditionsin place Dinner at the table,
let's watch a movie, then go outwith your friends.
Unfortunately, because oftechnology, so many people don't
have dinner.
If they do, they're on thedevice.
They can't have a conversation.
(17:42):
They're texting each other orsending each other emails inside
of the home.
How do you create those thingswhere you can have a connection?
The word I want you to walkaway with is sacrifice and
connection.
That's what he shared.
Are you connected and are youmaking the sacrifices for the
things that matter to you?
Speaker 3 (17:58):
That's good advice.
The word sacrifice here BecauseI used to read the newspaper
Once my kids were around.
I didn't read it.
You just have to figure outwhat things that I used to do.
That don't really matter andI'm going to give the time to
the kids.
Yes, if you care.
If you care.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
What was the best advice, Joe, that you were given
as you were coming through theranks and you're in a role now?
What was the best advice youwere given that you still?
Speaker 3 (18:17):
use today.
I think one of the best piecesof advice is someone said to me
is Joe, if you can tellsomething's going to be wrong or
go the wrong way or go sideways?
And he said you have a goodtummy rumble about.
That was where?
Do not turn away, do not duckfrom it.
Go attack the problem now, orthe potential problem, and make
it go away before it comes.
(18:38):
A problem, you know.
And, and the advice was twofold.
The nice advice was you have asense when it's off and take
advantage of it.
But he also said sometimesyou'd like to just avoid it and
ignore it and hope it goes away.
And they don't go away, youknow.
So, if your instincts right.
So that was pretty good advice.
And you know and it took a longtime to do it like, oh my gosh,
(18:59):
this is a real hassle, it'sgoing to be a pain, I know.
All right, better buckle downand go face it, Because if you
don't face it, you're going topay for it somewhere along the
way.
Yeah it gets bigger.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Yeah, so when you were going through the levels of
leadership and management isone thing, but when you get to
this executive a lot of peopleuse this word but it's hard to
describe it.
Sometimes, you know you hear,hey, they lack executive
presence.
If you could put that into acontainer and say what it really
means.
When they say that to someonebecause I do executive coaching
and get to help develop peopleand they hear this, that
(19:31):
executive presence, which verynebulous sometimes.
Quite honestly, what does itreally mean?
Speaker 3 (19:36):
I'm going to try to answer it, but I'm also going to
challenge it, because Iremember there were early days.
Well, answer it, but I'm alsogoing to challenge it, cause I
remember there were early days,were like you know, I don't know
if we can promote this person,cause you know, when they walk
down the hall, it's just youknow, it's just not like they're
there Jeez, they're one of thesmartest people.
Clients love them.
So what is this thing you'retalking about?
So you got to be careful too,cause it can't be bold, but I do
think, if I were to answer that, I think maybe there's just
(19:58):
it's a little bit of confidence,and confidence can mean you're
authentic.
Confidence can mean oh, I don'tknow that's confident.
You know that's not fear,that's not bullshit.
I don't know that takes a lotof confidence.
Confidence can mean, as AlexGorski, the previous CEO of J&J,
once said you know your job asa leader is not to get to have
(20:18):
the best answer in the room.
Your job is to get the bestanswer out of the room, and you
know that takes a lot ofconfidence.
So I don't know the answer, but, man, this team does.
How do I grow?
How do I get it out of them.
I just think and then I wasgoing to actually, when you say
the executive, that is probablya little bit of a calm
confidence.
You know someone's runningaround.
(20:39):
Yes, it's not executivepresence, you know.
It just makes everybody nervous, you know.
I mean you can be twistedinside, that's okay.
I think my stomach twists a lotinside, but there's a little
bit about a calm confidence andit doesn't mean arrogance, it
doesn't mean I have all theanswers.
I'm repeating myself a bit, butit's quite important People get
that.
It's just that I'm confidentenough to say I don't know, I'm
(20:59):
confident enough to share hey, Ihad a bad day yesterday.
Today's gonna be a tough one.
You know, being human, I thinkthat's, and not.
But also not being nervous andwilly-nilly.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
That's what hurts, I love it.
Which leads me to my nextquestion for you, as a leader,
when things are total chaoseverywhere.
What's the function of a leaderin those moments when chaos is
all around?
You know, regardless of what'shappening, where we missed a
deadline, the client's not happy.
You know things are happening.
That's just total chaos.
What's the job of a leader atthat time?
(21:30):
What's the best thing they cando for their team?
Speaker 3 (21:32):
Well, you know, I think COVID was a good time for
that, right?
Yes, yes.
And I do think the best thingyou can do is let me think about
this.
You know, let them know you'rethere for them.
Let them know you haveconfidence that we're going to
steer the ship as best we can,even if we don't know exactly
(21:52):
where we're going.
Scott Kirby said the CEO ofUnited when it hit, he said he
went on to all of his thousandsof employees and said I'm not
sure when we're going to flyagain, but I can tell you we're
going to do our best.
And a lot of his executivessaid you can't say that You're
supposed to be the CEO, you'resupposed to have the answer.
Well then, I'm lying becausenobody.
So you know.
(22:13):
So your job is to instillconfidence.
Obviously some calmness ties tothe executive presence and
indicate you're at least goingto move forward with, you know,
collecting the best insights youcan.
Even if you're not exactly surewhere forward, you know how
you're going to get forward.
I think that's okay to say that.
(22:33):
And then the other thingobviously you want to inspire
and get the best out of all yourpeople.
If there's chaos, then okay,who's got brilliant ideas to
help us get out of the chaos.
Go find those people and askthem.
Let them bring the idea.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
I go to one of my final questions for you.
Then we'll see if people wantto reach out to you.
They know how to.
But when you think about howlong you've been in the industry
, how long you've been inleadership and you played
leadership in all roles You'veseen a lot of changes and
there's multiple generations inthe workforce.
What's the best advice you giveto someone that changes happen
(23:10):
rapidly, faster than we everimagined?
There's five generations in theworkforce.
What's the best way for us tobe effective as leaders based on
the current environment we'reliving in?
Speaker 3 (23:20):
I think the best thing to do is to ask questions
and listen to the answer.
And by that just because youmay think, oh, that answer is
not what I thought, so don'tshut it down and say, well,
that's not my say.
Ah, let me add that to my data.
I think when there's so muchuncertainty and there's a lot of
great people around you, themore you ask questions and
(23:41):
listen and ask questions andlisten.
I'll tell you, every singleexecutive I interviewed in the
book said that Google did asurvey of their 80,000 managers
and the highest performingmanagers were great coaches.
They did that by engaging withthe people.
They did that by askingquestions and listening.
Ask and listen, ask them.
I think that's important anytime, but especially when you've got
(24:03):
multiple, you know, you and Idon't know where a 23-year-old's
coming from we have no clue.
When you've got multiple, youknow you and I don't know where
a 23 year old's coming from, wehave no clue.
So how do we find out?
We ask them.
You know, what do you know?
What are you learning?
What do you think's going onout there?
How do we change what we'redoing?
How do you think your general,you know, your colleagues are
thinking about this, which meanshumbleness, authenticity and
maybe a little bit ofvulnerability, because you're
(24:23):
admitting you don't knowsomething by asking yes.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Yeah, yeah, you're about to open up another.
Can John Vulnerability that,yeah, that.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
I know.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Yes, yeah, as we come to a close, you have a book out
or you've written it and you'vedone a lot of interviews.
How do we get the book?
What's the title?
Where do we find it at?
I would love for people tosupport and everybody I bring on
, I say they share what you haveout there, so we can support it
(24:52):
as well.
Speaker 3 (24:53):
Yeah, thank you.
Well, it's called the GenerousLeader Seven Ways to Give of
Yourself for Everyone's Gain.
It's about what we just talkedabout, this whole call.
Of course you can buy it on theinternet Amazon and all those
places I should say Barnes andNoble and whatever.
To be fair, it's there.
And if people want to reachout'm always on linkedin, but
I'm pretty active linkedin user.
You can send me a message onlinkedin.
I will respond, send you myemail because I don't want to
(25:13):
engage through link and I'llconnect.
And I'll do it too.
Believe it or not, I'll connect.
You know now, if you want tosell me something, I may or may
not respond, but if you want to,hey, well, listen, yeah, I love
you know I wrote this book andI said to a friend of mine I
said well, gosh, you know I'mnever going to sell a million
copies like Brenny Brown or AdamGrant, whatever.
And he said you know, joe, ifyou move seven people to behave
(25:37):
a little bit differently intheir leadership, it'll be worth
the effort.
Yes, well, that's really what Iwant to do is just help move
some people, just like what youdo in your career.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
Yes, yes, I love it.
I mean you're humanizing theconversation.
You know no matter, you knowwhere you get at.
You know you showed up even inthe green room, like ego doesn't
show up, you just have fun.
Here's who I am.
How are we going to do this?
And I think sometimes we getcaught up in our titles and our
positions and our roles.
Really cares, Like, do you knowyour job and can you help me
and will you help me?
You know, at the end of the day, people don't get caught up in
(26:09):
titles or positions, except forthe person that's wearing it.
Speaker 3 (26:12):
Well, and also while you're wearing it, sometimes
people treat you like something,and then the day you don't wear
it, you're not that thinganymore.
So you might as well understandit doesn't really matter.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
Yeah, I mean, you know, you know from the military
background.
They say, hey, if you got towear your rank everywhere that
you go and they don't respectyou when you're not in it, then
it's not true.
They respect.
They just respect that ranktitle.
They respect, yes, and so Itell you that if you can get
past it.
Not that we don't needhierarchy, it's just that be a
human People know that at theend of the day that you got a
title and position, but be ahuman as we hear about.
(26:43):
Is there any last minute advicethat you would share with the
people that are in leadershiproles, that's, trying to
navigate and be better atleadership?
Is there anything that you'llpull from your book about
generous leader that you'llshare with us?
Speaker 3 (26:53):
I can repeat myself a bit, but I do think this idea
of you don't know everything, nomatter who you are and what you
think, so the more you can askand listen, and then we won't go
deep into vulnerability.
But I will say you know, evenasking shows some vulnerability.
Somebody says, oh, do I have tocry in front?
No, just say I don't know.
And that frees everybody.
Oh, you don't know, the bossdoesn't know, we don't know.
All of a sudden everyone getspast these fears of saying I
(27:16):
don't know.
So I do think that being I willuse the word vulnerable enough
to understand you don't have theanswers and ask a lot of
questions and listen.
It's probably.
I ask a lot of questions andlisten.
There's probably, I meanthere's many things.
But those are reallyfundamental to getting the best
out of your people and you knowthey feel respected and they're
inspired.
Oh, you care about me?
Oh, wow.
And you can ask also abouttheir personal life once in a
(27:38):
while.
Not, you know a conversation,but how was your weekend?
You know, how's your child'ssoccer game last weekend?
I don't know.
Pick something, oh, yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
Yeah, and you do it naturally.
And I will say you know, as Ilistened to Joe, we were talking
in the green room and he's beenon this show as we were talking
.
The one thing that he does isjust authentic.
Don't fake it.
Don't do it because youactually care and you're being a
human about it and you'rehaving a traditional
conversation.
Learn how to do it effectively,but ask those questions.
People care that you care aboutthem.
(28:07):
Yeah, shows respect.
It shows respect.
Yes, awesome, awesome.
Well, thank you all forfollowing us and staying with
Joe and I for several minutesjust to share phenomenal
information.
Please support the book.
I'm always telling people, thepeople you meet and the books
you read will show up somewherein your life.
So I always value the people.
I'm a relationship guy.
(28:28):
Thank you all, and until nexttime, joe and I will sign off
and we hope you enjoyed thepodcast.
Tell your friends, tell yourrelatives and share it with your
colleagues.
We'd love to have you supportour podcast of Unpacked.
We don't know what we're goingto talk about.
The only thing we promise iswe'll always talk about
leadership.
Thank you all for joining us.
Joe and I will sign off and wehope to see you on another
podcast.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
Well, we hope you enjoyed this edition of Unpacked
Podcast with leadershipconsultant Ron Harvey.
Remember to join us everyMonday as Ron unpacks sound
advice, providing real answersfor real leadership challenges.
Until next time, remember toadd value and make a difference
where you are, for the peopleyou serve, because people always
(29:11):
matter.
Welcome to Unpacked Podcast with your host
leadership consultant, ronHarvey of Global Core Strategies
and Consulting.
Ron believes that leadership isthe fundamental driver towards
making a difference.
So now to find out more of whatit means to unpack leadership,
here's your host, ron Harvey.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Well, hello everyone.
This is Ron Harvey, Once againcoming to you with Unpacked,
always bringing guests fromeverywhere.
Of course, if you follow us,you know I'm a wife and I own a
leadership development firm andwe spend a lot of time really
helping leaders be betterconnected to the people that
they're responsible for andresponsible to.
And I'll tell you, I learnedthat in my military experience
that, no matter how you gotpromoted, you were always
(00:41):
working for your people.
You were responsible for yourpeople and you have to serve
your people.
And that was an awakeningmoment because most of us, once
we get there, we think ourpeople work for us.
Yeah, the military flipped thatupside down and I had to learn
a different way of leading.
So we love what we do, we enjoyit, but we always pause and do
our podcast, and this podcast isreally with guests from around
the world with all kinds ofbackgrounds, and you already
(01:02):
know we don't know what thequestions are going to be, but
we're going to have a good time.
We're going to talk leadership.
Our goal is for you to walkaway with something that you
stay with us for 20 minutes, youhave fun with us and you learn
something that you can make youa better leader and take better
care of your people.
So I'm excited to have JoeDavis.
He's joining us.
We already having fun in funhere, live with you in person.
So, joe, let me let youintroduce yourself.
(01:23):
Whatever you want to say aboutyou will totally fine, but I let
all of my guests introducethemselves, because who knows
you better than you?
Speaker 3 (01:31):
Thank you, ron, and it's great to be here and
actually let me just start.
I was excited to hear you saythat you know leaders have to
remember they're actuallyserving the people they're
working for.
But what's the shame is ittakes a lot of leaders a long
time to learn that.
You said it flipped over whenyou got in the most senior roles
in the military.
The sooner our leaders figurethat out, the better off they're
going to be and the better offtheir teams will be.
(01:51):
Well, thanks for having me.
You got my name, joe Davis.
I worked for a company calledBCG or the Boston Consulting
Group for 37 years, long time.
In this day and age I alwayslike to say I have four children
and number nine grandchild onthe way Makes it something very
important to me.
I had a hell of a career andstarted my job at Procter and
work well, started my work lifeas a paper boy you know doing
(02:13):
that, doing that for six yearsand then at Procter and Gamble
as a sales rep, which wasinteresting.
We can talk more about it, buteven that very first job, going
in and out, selling you knowshampoo and you know deodorant
was a huge learning experienceand the first leadership role.
There was a real big learningexperience, especially because I
was like 25 and scared to death.
You know you were, you were theboss or you were serving people
(02:36):
.
You were just trying to figureout what you're doing every day.
And then, as I said that bcg, Ihad a pretty good run.
Eventually ran mentioned theGrand Darts America for BCG and
started some offices along theway and the like.
So it's a fun career, greatcareer.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Yeah, and you're still smiling and you're still
having fun with it.
I mean, we're in the green room, we're having fun, we're
laughing and really watchingleaders that sometimes get to
that level.
They forget how to just be ahuman being.
You know how do you just havefun and not take yourself so
serious.
You got a fancy title, but whoare you if you didn't have that
title?
So we'll talk about all of that.
Let's go into the question,though you mentioned it earlier,
(03:10):
if you don't mind, Joe atProcter Gamble, you know your
first leadership role at 25.
What were some of the lessonslearned?
Because you know at 25, youthink you got all the answers
and you got to do everythingyourself.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
Yeah, you know, I'll tell you.
I have a very important lessonlearned that stuck with me the
rest of my life and I used toride.
It's about development andtraining, helping others grow.
I used to ride with my guys.
I had three sales reps.
Two of them were career salesreps, that's all, and then one
was a management track personand these guys were 40 or 38.
I thought they were really old,you know cause?
I wasn't that age, obviouslynot that old.
(03:44):
You know, I'd ride with themevery two weeks and I was scared
to death to tell them anythingabout what they should do
differently.
I mean, what did I know?
Just what I learned in thetraining manual.
So that was funny, because thenit came to year-end review and I
wrote out everything I thoughtthey should do that I had
noticed over the year that Ididn't say to them ever and I
was going through this review,it's a guy named Rich, and Rich
(04:05):
I started launching in and blah,blah, blah and he cuts me off
after two minutes.
He says wait a minute, joe, Ithink a few swear words in there
.
I said what the heck?
You write me every two weeksand you've never said any of
these things, like what the hellis your job?
You can imagine at 25, I do notremember how I react, I just
remember being mortified.
You can imagine at 25, I do notremember how I react, I just
(04:27):
remember being mortified Like,oh my gosh, I'm sure how I
danced out of that.
And then, after Rich left, mymanager at the time, my boss,
said Joe, never again do youwrite a review where they
haven't heard every word that'sgoing to be written or every
idea that's going to be writtenon that review.
You know that was a powerfullesson.
I was scared.
You know.
You said some people think theyknow everything and or they're
scared, which is maybe why theythink they know everything,
(04:48):
because that's a way to coverthe fear I was afraid to tell.
But the interesting thing washe was looking for me, 25 year
old kid, to give him feedbackand share what I knew, instead
of saying well, you know, justignore me.
So why didn't you tell me allthis stuff?
It was a really powerful lessonat a very young age.
Actually, I kind of believe inwhen lessons punch you in the
face, you tend to remember thema little better.
(05:10):
I was embarrassed.
Let's just say I wasembarrassed.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Yes, yeah.
So, joe, when you think aboutit for someone, that's where you
were back in that 25, they weremore senior.
What drives them?
Fear?
Because someone's listening.
That's in that exact positiontoday and they're themselves
with stories that's not true.
Speaker 3 (05:25):
I think there's several things.
I think one is, of course, I'm25 and they're 40, so there's a
little bit wrapped up in that,unless you're really, really
cocky, but you know.
So that's part, but I think thebigger thing was what you said
a minute ago.
You think you know it all, oryou think you're supposed to
know it all.
Yes, and the truth is you don'tand you know you don't.
(05:46):
So now you're kind of stuck.
Wait, can I show I don't know itall, but I'm not supposed to do
that.
But if I don't show that, howcan I tell this guy anything?
Honestly, you know, I think youjust wrap up in this fear of
I'm supposed to have all theanswers, but of course I don't.
And who am I?
Therefore, I'm supposed to beable to train this guy, but what
(06:09):
if I'm a little bit wrong?
That I'm wrong, you know.
I think that's the fear thatpeople get wrapped up in.
And it's very interestingbecause that guy, that 40 year
old sales rep, said come on, getover yourself and coach me.
Yes, but that's what he wastelling me.
Absolutely, people want to getbetter at what they do.
Most people, you know, theywant to get better at what they
do and your job is to help themget there.
And to be run around scared isnot helping anybody.
It's not helping you either, tobe honest.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
So once you got it and your boss talked to you,
what was your solution?
How did you navigate throughthat and go back and really
build back up and say, okay, Iget it, I owe this.
How did you recover?
Speaker 3 (06:41):
I have to say the recovery was over years, because
I probably did better the nexttime I rode with them.
I don't remember anymore,Though there was a lesson there
which was it's better to bedirect and tell something to
someone when you see it in themoment than not.
And if you're actually doing itbecause you care about them and
you want them to get better,you can get away with a lot of
(07:01):
unintentional kind of direct andharsh words.
And the thing that I did learnover time I was then known to be
very direct, very clear, givefeedback and give it in the
moment, but no one ever was,even if it was tough, no one was
angry with me, because theyknew I only wanted them to be
better.
I mean, why else would I do it?
So I think over time there wasindirect feedback.
(07:22):
Like you know, that was tough,but thank you because now I know
what I need to work on.
So you just got reinforcementthat actually telling people
what they need to hear is prettypowerful.
I'll tell you one other littlestory.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
This is later on maybe 10 years later I think.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
I was a brand new partner at PCG and we're doing a
session.
The steering committee meetingwith the client and all the
executive suite was in there andone of the guys was and he said
the word like one of my guys.
He said the word like everyother word and you know, you
just don't say like in theC-suite, you just don't do that.
You can say it when you're 17or around the house maybe if you
(07:59):
want, but you don't say it inthe C-suite, so they don't say
it this easy.
So we finished, everyone leftand we were debriefing.
I said to this guy I said, alex, how old are you?
So I'm 30.
I said you know, I don't think30-year-olds say like, no more
like, and I think I said it more, but I said it right in front
of the whole team.
I said and he's just like whoa.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
But he told me you know, several years later you so
you said something I want tounpack because some leaders
think that you know.
You said as long as you care,you can share real data.
How do you help leaders thatare listening that we were
(08:36):
taught Keep that.
Don't let them know you care.
Don't let them see you knowemotional like, because I was
taught like no, keep this stoicface.
Don't let them know that youcare about it.
Always be very stoic and verydirect and hard nose all the
time.
I don't practice it.
I was in uniform for 21 yearsand one of the comments I got
back was they know you care toomuch.
Yeah, would be effective.
And some people still thinkthat they can't show they care
(08:58):
about their people.
Speaker 3 (08:59):
Yeah, yeah, I know I was talking to one executive
Cisco woman and she in earlydays.
She said she cared about herpeople and some guy came up to
her and said you know you caretoo much.
You got to put some of thataway.
She said that wasn't me, Wasn'tgoing to do it and, by the way,
it didn't work out for him, soI might'll either.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
He wasn't around very long.
Speaker 3 (09:16):
So I think, sure, sure, but a couple of things let
me just say I think the worldhas changed like really changed.
I mean, he's a Jack Welch is agreat leader.
That's fine.
They're over.
The days of IBM white shirt,blue suit you're just a cog in
the wheel.
They're over.
You know technology has changedthat.
Now it's 24-7.
People have to bring theirhumanity to work, because it
(09:38):
works all the time.
You have to bring and they wantto see a human leader.
And then, if you add the socialmedia, all the stress that's
proven, that adds.
Now you've got people who areon all the time and, you know,
may have some level of stressabout themselves, the
organization, others, andthey're looking for you.
Know you when you smiled a bit,I'm not saying you have to be
(09:58):
nice all the time, but you'vegot to care about them.
And then you got the world ofpeople can quit easily,
especially if they're talented.
Now maybe it's a littletrickier today, but still, if
you're really good, you canswitch roles.
So they're looking for you tobring you humanity.
Technology's driven it.
I think the idea of being stoic,the thing you have to remember,
is you're just trying to makethem perform better, so
(10:19):
everything performs better.
I mean, you know I'm not sayingbe nice, and if it doesn't work
and you fail, you get to stayin the job.
You know you have to deliverresults.
I'm not saying you don'tdeliver results.
You might have seen there was aGallup poll survey out the
other day 3 million.
They surveyed and they saidthat one of the bunch of
questions, someone cares aboutme.
It's one of the questionspeople they asked and that's now
(10:42):
39% of the people it used to be50% felt someone in the
workforce cares about them.
Wow, you know that.
Yeah, I know One third.
The other two thirds don't.
So I will say one thing I thinkif you want to be an
exceptional leader, I think youactually have an edge up if you
actually show you care.
You still got to deliver.
You still have to have insight.
You still have to, but if youhave an edge up over, you know
(11:03):
whoever's leading.
The other 65% of those peopleyes.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
Yes, I love it.
I mean that you said it, joe,because one of the things I
always talk about when I'm withmy team or out in public or
working with our clients is PNR.
And I'm not talking publicrelations, I'm talking about you
must have performance.
You got to deliver, that's anexpectation, but then you got to
have healthy relationships withpeople.
People got to know that that ishealthy to be with you.
And I still need you to be heldaccountable.
(11:28):
And I tell everybody across theworld which is what you alluded
to is, hey, you've got todeliver, but you can be human
and you can take care of peopleand care about people and still
hold them accountable.
Matter of fact, they feel badif they let you down, if you
show you care about them.
Speaker 3 (11:40):
Well, yeah, I actually think you can be even
more direct, which is when youcare, when you push people to be
the best, you will deliver moreand they will deliver more.
So, actually, it does achievethe goals that you're trying to.
You know, if you think allabout, anyway, you know, I just
think I bet you, if someone,when I started writing my book
about it, someone said, well, doyou have any data that proves
(12:01):
that?
I said, well, it's kind of hardto prove, but you know you,
there's just countless storiesand or anecdotes and or just
data around.
The best leaders really helptheir people to perform at their
top level.
And to do that you have to.
You can be tough.
I'm not saying don't be tough,but if it's tough because you
want to be better, they'llfollow you.
(12:22):
Now, if you're an ass, ifyou're a jerk, that may not be
so good.
There's a level of twodifferent words.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
Man, yes, yes, and I think you're spot on for the
people that are listening, likesome people think that I gotta
be a jerk to people for them tolisten or I gotta I gotta like
yell and scream to our highest.
So I think there are peoplethat that respond to that, but I
think more people don't respondto that.
Speaker 3 (12:42):
People want to be respected but held accountable
yeah, you know, I tell you, sirjoaquin duato, he's ceo of
johnson Johnson Johnson, janeJacobs.
Yes, he was telling me how hemakes sure that he connects with
people and he doesn't yell atpeople.
He's not that kind of guy butin ways that they'll you know.
You said, well, some peoplemight respond.
I don't.
I think most people shut down.
I always you said the word some.
That wasn't it, but he said hewould actually, if something,
(13:11):
he'd bring a group of peopletogether and practice it and
then say, well, what did I say?
And he listened to the like.
He might say the wordtransformation.
And they'd say, well, you saidwe have to change.
He said, ah, so transformation,they didn't click in, but
change.
And he'd change his word tochange because that's their word
.
And then he'd ask them, well,what if you were telling you
know what I said to your, youknow your partner or your family
tonight at the dinner table,feedback what I said, and he'd
listen, take notes and he'dwrite it and read, adjust it, so
(13:33):
they'd connect with what he'ssaying.
You know, and that's the point,you could have a speech, you
can have this and that, but ifthey're not connecting with it,
I don't know how you're movingthem to do something differently
, you know, or inspiring them.
So that was pretty.
(13:54):
I mean, that was a verypractical way to actually make
sure your words are comingacross, and I'm sure if you're
well whatever a jerk wouldn't dothat.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Anyway, we're in the green room and I want to talk
about something because you'reat a high level.
You've been in 37 years, whichis unheard of for someone,
especially in today's time.
So congrats to that.
But one thing that we'retalking about in the room that I
would like you to unpack withus you managed to do your career
for that long and your familyis still super important.
You're spending time with yourfamily.
How do you help leaders thatwill listen to this that think
(14:21):
it's one or the other or they'respending all their time at work
and they forget that once theyretire, get to a certain age?
You didn't pay attention toyour family and it may not be
there because of the way.
How do you help people do that?
Well, because you shared in thegreen room and not all those
details you share in the greenroom.
Speaker 3 (14:41):
But how do you manage both?
Well, yeah, well, I thinkeverybody can have their own
model.
I'll tell you some of thethings I did.
One of the things I do believeis you have to like your work
and like what you're doing andfeel good about it.
If you don't, that'll come hometoo, and that might come even
if you're home all the time.
That'll come.
I come home worse so, even ifyou're working your rear off but
you love it, that comes home inenergy enthusiasm.
So I do think that's animportant thing.
(15:03):
My wife used to say, because I'ma consultant, I was gone four
days a week, probably 20 years.
She would say the day I thinkyou'd rather be gone than here
is the day we have a problem.
So you know, I never just tookoff.
I personally wanted to be home.
Now for me, I did justpractically a couple of things.
One thing I did do is I didn'tmiss, when the kids were little,
anything that they would thinkwas critical.
(15:24):
So you know, I could five, six,seven year olds they have a
show at night where they'resinging the songs or something I
would get on a plane at fouro'clock be there for the child,
see the thing get up at four inthe morning, be on the plane at
six and back at the client inthe morning.
I would not miss those things.
Now you had to pick which arethe most important ones.
You might miss some, but youknow, like my children, somehow
they said to me well, dad, youwere never gone, so let's go
(15:46):
four days a week.
And there was no FaceTime.
Back then they said, oh no, itfelt like you're always here.
So that's one thing is figureout what really matters, and
then you have to sacrifice yourtime.
That's just is if you love yourjob and your family to be there
.
We also did had traditions.
I mean, we always had dinner atthe table on Sunday night and
(16:08):
we had for a while there.
I made everyone dress up thatkind of old, but it was fun.
You know, we had Saturday nightmovies.
We all'd sit down there andeven when they're teenagers oh,
what about my friends?
No, we'll watch a movie, thenyou can go out.
So we built some traditions.
The stability, actually, maybethat's the I hadn't thought
about this until you just saidthat but the stability, ron,
that comes from kind oftraditions and patterns.
Then kids feel like, okay,you're here, you know if there's
(16:30):
no, if they don't know ifyou're here or there and you
know one moment or the next,that's probably makes it tougher
.
But that's what I did.
I did love my job.
I brought that energy home.
I made sure I made time forchildren.
We built traditions into thefamily and I also blurred my
kids.
I blurred as best I can work inlife.
You know my kids attended okay,halloween party in the office
(16:51):
they came.
You know, christmas party forkids in the office they came.
I was one of those kinds ofpeople and they loved it.
You know there's a long answerwith a few of my tips.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
I mean, they're very practical for people that are
listening.
You know, and I love thatyou're unpacking it and the
answers are solid.
So, even though letting youshare is important, because
someone listening trying tofigure it out, they're not
bringing them to the office,they're not getting on that
plane at four o'clock in themorning.
Use the word sacrifice.
Use sacrifice for both and Iwant people to really hear that.
On Unpacked, we make it lookeasy sometimes on our level, but
there are a lot of behind thescenes that you don't see.
(17:22):
That's why I call it Unpacked.
We make it look too easysometimes and we don't give you
the real recipe.
He's already told me what Joewas doing.
He made sure he had traditionsin place Dinner at the table,
let's watch a movie, then go outwith your friends.
Unfortunately, because oftechnology, so many people don't
have dinner.
If they do, they're on thedevice.
They can't have a conversation.
(17:42):
They're texting each other orsending each other emails inside
of the home.
How do you create those thingswhere you can have a connection?
The word I want you to walkaway with is sacrifice and
connection.
That's what he shared.
Are you connected and are youmaking the sacrifices for the
things that matter to you?
Speaker 3 (17:58):
That's good advice.
The word sacrifice here BecauseI used to read the newspaper
Once my kids were around.
I didn't read it.
You just have to figure outwhat things that I used to do.
That don't really matter andI'm going to give the time to
the kids.
Yes, if you care.
If you care.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
What was the best advice, Joe, that you were given
as you were coming through theranks and you're in a role now?
What was the best advice youwere given that you still?
Speaker 3 (18:17):
use today.
I think one of the best piecesof advice is someone said to me
is Joe, if you can tellsomething's going to be wrong or
go the wrong way or go sideways?
And he said you have a goodtummy rumble about.
That was where?
Do not turn away, do not duckfrom it.
Go attack the problem now, orthe potential problem, and make
it go away before it comes.
(18:38):
A problem, you know.
And, and the advice was twofold.
The nice advice was you have asense when it's off and take
advantage of it.
But he also said sometimesyou'd like to just avoid it and
ignore it and hope it goes away.
And they don't go away, youknow.
So, if your instincts right.
So that was pretty good advice.
And you know and it took a longtime to do it like, oh my gosh,
(18:59):
this is a real hassle, it'sgoing to be a pain, I know.
All right, better buckle downand go face it, Because if you
don't face it, you're going topay for it somewhere along the
way.
Yeah it gets bigger.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Yeah, so when you were going through the levels of
leadership and management isone thing, but when you get to
this executive a lot of peopleuse this word but it's hard to
describe it.
Sometimes, you know you hear,hey, they lack executive
presence.
If you could put that into acontainer and say what it really
means.
When they say that to someonebecause I do executive coaching
and get to help develop peopleand they hear this, that
(19:31):
executive presence, which verynebulous sometimes.
Quite honestly, what does itreally mean?
Speaker 3 (19:36):
I'm going to try to answer it, but I'm also going to
challenge it, because Iremember there were early days.
Well, answer it, but I'm alsogoing to challenge it, cause I
remember there were early days,were like you know, I don't know
if we can promote this person,cause you know, when they walk
down the hall, it's just youknow, it's just not like they're
there Jeez, they're one of thesmartest people.
Clients love them.
So what is this thing you'retalking about?
So you got to be careful too,cause it can't be bold, but I do
think, if I were to answer that, I think maybe there's just
(19:58):
it's a little bit of confidence,and confidence can mean you're
authentic.
Confidence can mean oh, I don'tknow that's confident.
You know that's not fear,that's not bullshit.
I don't know that takes a lotof confidence.
Confidence can mean, as AlexGorski, the previous CEO of J&J,
once said you know your job asa leader is not to get to have
(20:18):
the best answer in the room.
Your job is to get the bestanswer out of the room, and you
know that takes a lot ofconfidence.
So I don't know the answer, but, man, this team does.
How do I grow?
How do I get it out of them.
I just think and then I wasgoing to actually, when you say
the executive, that is probablya little bit of a calm
confidence.
You know someone's runningaround.
(20:39):
Yes, it's not executivepresence, you know.
It just makes everybody nervous, you know.
I mean you can be twistedinside, that's okay.
I think my stomach twists a lotinside, but there's a little
bit about a calm confidence andit doesn't mean arrogance, it
doesn't mean I have all theanswers.
I'm repeating myself a bit, butit's quite important People get
that.
It's just that I'm confidentenough to say I don't know, I'm
(20:59):
confident enough to share hey, Ihad a bad day yesterday.
Today's gonna be a tough one.
You know, being human, I thinkthat's, and not.
But also not being nervous andwilly-nilly.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
That's what hurts, I love it.
Which leads me to my nextquestion for you, as a leader,
when things are total chaoseverywhere.
What's the function of a leaderin those moments when chaos is
all around?
You know, regardless of what'shappening, where we missed a
deadline, the client's not happy.
You know things are happening.
That's just total chaos.
What's the job of a leader atthat time?
(21:30):
What's the best thing they cando for their team?
Speaker 3 (21:32):
Well, you know, I think COVID was a good time for
that, right?
Yes, yes.
And I do think the best thingyou can do is let me think about
this.
You know, let them know you'rethere for them.
Let them know you haveconfidence that we're going to
steer the ship as best we can,even if we don't know exactly
(21:52):
where we're going.
Scott Kirby said the CEO ofUnited when it hit, he said he
went on to all of his thousandsof employees and said I'm not
sure when we're going to flyagain, but I can tell you we're
going to do our best.
And a lot of his executivessaid you can't say that You're
supposed to be the CEO, you'resupposed to have the answer.
Well then, I'm lying becausenobody.
So you know.
(22:13):
So your job is to instillconfidence.
Obviously some calmness ties tothe executive presence and
indicate you're at least goingto move forward with, you know,
collecting the best insights youcan.
Even if you're not exactly surewhere forward, you know how
you're going to get forward.
I think that's okay to say that.
(22:33):
And then the other thingobviously you want to inspire
and get the best out of all yourpeople.
If there's chaos, then okay,who's got brilliant ideas to
help us get out of the chaos.
Go find those people and askthem.
Let them bring the idea.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
I go to one of my final questions for you.
Then we'll see if people wantto reach out to you.
They know how to.
But when you think about howlong you've been in the industry
, how long you've been inleadership and you played
leadership in all roles You'veseen a lot of changes and
there's multiple generations inthe workforce.
What's the best advice you giveto someone that changes happen
(23:10):
rapidly, faster than we everimagined?
There's five generations in theworkforce.
What's the best way for us tobe effective as leaders based on
the current environment we'reliving in?
Speaker 3 (23:20):
I think the best thing to do is to ask questions
and listen to the answer.
And by that just because youmay think, oh, that answer is
not what I thought, so don'tshut it down and say, well,
that's not my say.
Ah, let me add that to my data.
I think when there's so muchuncertainty and there's a lot of
great people around you, themore you ask questions and
(23:41):
listen and ask questions andlisten.
I'll tell you, every singleexecutive I interviewed in the
book said that Google did asurvey of their 80,000 managers
and the highest performingmanagers were great coaches.
They did that by engaging withthe people.
They did that by askingquestions and listening.
Ask and listen, ask them.
I think that's important anytime, but especially when you've got
(24:03):
multiple, you know, you and Idon't know where a 23-year-old's
coming from we have no clue.
When you've got multiple, youknow you and I don't know where
a 23 year old's coming from, wehave no clue.
So how do we find out?
We ask them.
You know, what do you know?
What are you learning?
What do you think's going onout there?
How do we change what we'redoing?
How do you think your general,you know, your colleagues are
thinking about this, which meanshumbleness, authenticity and
maybe a little bit ofvulnerability, because you're
(24:23):
admitting you don't knowsomething by asking yes.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Yeah, yeah, you're about to open up another.
Can John Vulnerability that,yeah, that.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
I know.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Yes, yeah, as we come to a close, you have a book out
or you've written it and you'vedone a lot of interviews.
How do we get the book?
What's the title?
Where do we find it at?
I would love for people tosupport and everybody I bring on
, I say they share what you haveout there, so we can support it
(24:52):
as well.
Speaker 3 (24:53):
Yeah, thank you.
Well, it's called the GenerousLeader Seven Ways to Give of
Yourself for Everyone's Gain.
It's about what we just talkedabout, this whole call.
Of course you can buy it on theinternet Amazon and all those
places I should say Barnes andNoble and whatever.
To be fair, it's there.
And if people want to reachout'm always on linkedin, but
I'm pretty active linkedin user.
You can send me a message onlinkedin.
I will respond, send you myemail because I don't want to
(25:13):
engage through link and I'llconnect.
And I'll do it too.
Believe it or not, I'll connect.
You know now, if you want tosell me something, I may or may
not respond, but if you want to,hey, well, listen, yeah, I love
you know I wrote this book andI said to a friend of mine I
said well, gosh, you know I'mnever going to sell a million
copies like Brenny Brown or AdamGrant, whatever.
And he said you know, joe, ifyou move seven people to behave
(25:37):
a little bit differently intheir leadership, it'll be worth
the effort.
Yes, well, that's really what Iwant to do is just help move
some people, just like what youdo in your career.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
Yes, yes, I love it.
I mean you're humanizing theconversation.
You know no matter, you knowwhere you get at.
You know you showed up even inthe green room, like ego doesn't
show up, you just have fun.
Here's who I am.
How are we going to do this?
And I think sometimes we getcaught up in our titles and our
positions and our roles.
Really cares, Like, do you knowyour job and can you help me
and will you help me?
You know, at the end of the day, people don't get caught up in
(26:09):
titles or positions, except forthe person that's wearing it.
Speaker 3 (26:12):
Well, and also while you're wearing it, sometimes
people treat you like something,and then the day you don't wear
it, you're not that thinganymore.
So you might as well understandit doesn't really matter.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
Yeah, I mean, you know, you know from the military
background.
They say, hey, if you got towear your rank everywhere that
you go and they don't respectyou when you're not in it, then
it's not true.
They respect.
They just respect that ranktitle.
They respect, yes, and so Itell you that if you can get
past it.
Not that we don't needhierarchy, it's just that be a
human People know that at theend of the day that you got a
title and position, but be ahuman as we hear about.
(26:43):
Is there any last minute advicethat you would share with the
people that are in leadershiproles, that's, trying to
navigate and be better atleadership?
Is there anything that you'llpull from your book about
generous leader that you'llshare with us?
Speaker 3 (26:53):
I can repeat myself a bit, but I do think this idea
of you don't know everything, nomatter who you are and what you
think, so the more you can askand listen, and then we won't go
deep into vulnerability.
But I will say you know, evenasking shows some vulnerability.
Somebody says, oh, do I have tocry in front?
No, just say I don't know.
And that frees everybody.
Oh, you don't know, the bossdoesn't know, we don't know.
All of a sudden everyone getspast these fears of saying I
(27:16):
don't know.
So I do think that being I willuse the word vulnerable enough
to understand you don't have theanswers and ask a lot of
questions and listen.
It's probably.
I ask a lot of questions andlisten.
There's probably, I meanthere's many things.
But those are reallyfundamental to getting the best
out of your people and you knowthey feel respected and they're
inspired.
Oh, you care about me?
Oh, wow.
And you can ask also abouttheir personal life once in a
(27:38):
while.
Not, you know a conversation,but how was your weekend?
You know, how's your child'ssoccer game last weekend?
I don't know.
Pick something, oh, yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
Yeah, and you do it naturally.
And I will say you know, as Ilistened to Joe, we were talking
in the green room and he's beenon this show as we were talking
.
The one thing that he does isjust authentic.
Don't fake it.
Don't do it because youactually care and you're being a
human about it and you'rehaving a traditional
conversation.
Learn how to do it effectively,but ask those questions.
People care that you care aboutthem.
(28:07):
Yeah, shows respect.
It shows respect.
Yes, awesome, awesome.
Well, thank you all forfollowing us and staying with
Joe and I for several minutesjust to share phenomenal
information.
Please support the book.
I'm always telling people, thepeople you meet and the books
you read will show up somewherein your life.
So I always value the people.
I'm a relationship guy.
(28:28):
Thank you all, and until nexttime, joe and I will sign off
and we hope you enjoyed thepodcast.
Tell your friends, tell yourrelatives and share it with your
colleagues.
We'd love to have you supportour podcast of Unpacked.
We don't know what we're goingto talk about.
The only thing we promise iswe'll always talk about
leadership.
Thank you all for joining us.
Joe and I will sign off and wehope to see you on another
podcast.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
Well, we hope you enjoyed this edition of Unpacked
Podcast with leadershipconsultant Ron Harvey.
Remember to join us everyMonday as Ron unpacks sound
advice, providing real answersfor real leadership challenges.
Until next time, remember toadd value and make a difference
where you are, for the peopleyou serve, because people always
(29:11):
matter.
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