July 14, 2025 • 30 mins
Digital overwhelm is a modern leadership challenge requiring new approaches to maintain human connection and workplace wellbeing. Communication professor Dr. Craig Mattson explains how the intersection of rapid technological development and our emotional responses creates a state of digital overwhelm that affects productivity and engagement.
• Digital overwhelm combines surface currents of rapid technological change with upwelling emotional responses
• Multitasking is a myth—our attention diffuses quickly when attempting multiple tasks
• Communication flexibility is essential in digital spaces, allowing adaptability across different platforms
• "Mode switching" helps us move between different communication approaches based on needs
• Creating intentional device-free spaces can significantly improve human connection and engagement
• Only 31% of workers currently feel engaged in their work, suggesting a broader crisis
• Three strategies for managing digital overwhelm: name it openly, treat communication as a gift, and embrace single-use technologies
• Technological development often happens without democratic input, creating worker equity issues
Find Dr. Craig Mattson's book, "Digital Overwhelm," at any bookstore, and connect with him at themodeswitch.com, where you can also subscribe to his free newsletter on work culture.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Unpacked Podcast with your host
leadership consultant, ronHarvey of GlobalCore Strategies
and Consulting.
Ron believes that leadership isthe fundamental driver towards
making a difference.
So now to find out more of whatit means to unpack leadership,
here's your host, ron Harvey.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Good morning.
This is Ron Harvey, the VicePresident, chief Operating
Officer for Global CoreStrategies and Consulting, based
out of Columbia, south Carolina.
In that company, what we do isreally one thing, and one thing
only, that we say we're good atWe'll wait for the verdict to
come in, but we spend all of ourtime really helping leaders be
more connected to the peoplethat they're responsible for and
(00:42):
responsible to.
How do they effectively leadand take care of the people that
are getting the work done forthem, whether that's through
trust or communication orempowering you name it
delegating.
How do you get better at that?
I wish there was a handbookthat we could hand out.
It changes so fast that ourstrategies change constantly,
but we do know that it does makea difference to have a really
effective leader, and that's whowe talk to.
(01:03):
So, happy to pause, though, thepodcast is about unpacked, not
even about our company.
It's about how do we bringguests on the show that unpack
something that you can take awayand implement today to make you
more effective at what you'retrying to get done.
That's the whole premises.
We're going to talk openly andhonestly and candidly about how
do we add value to you forlistening.
So thank you for listening.
(01:30):
So I'm super excited for ourguest.
Craig is here with us.
Always hand the microphone toour guests and allow them to do
what I'll probably mess up.
They get to introducethemselves without me messing up
anything about who they are.
So, craig, I'm going to handthe microphone to you and here's
your opportunity.
What do you want us to knowabout you?
Speaker 3 (01:42):
Well, hi, ronald, it's really great to be in your
show and I so appreciate.
As someone who is anorganizational follower more
than an organizational leader, Ifeel the need for good
leadership today, and so I'mglad your podcast cultivates
those kinds of conversations.
I'm an organizationalresearcher and a professor of
(02:03):
communication at KelvinUniversity, which is in Grand
Rapids, michigan, and I studywhat makes for work community
well-being, and certainly a bigpart of that is what you're
talking about all the time onthis show.
So my wife and I live in GrandRapids, we have four kids who
(02:26):
are sort of scattered around theMidwest, and we have a little
introverted shih tzu who isafraid of two things every thing
.
So we enjoy his company as asort of couch companion and,
yeah, so again, I'm reallygrateful to be here.
I'm hoping to talk about apeculiar aspect of leadership
(02:51):
today, and that is digitaloverwhelm.
So that's what I'm hoping wecan chat about today.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
Well, craig, thank you for sharing who you are, and
I'm always going to unpack, sowe won't even hesitate, we won't
waste any time.
We'll dive into that, becauseit is a digital world.
I mean, it is a part ofleadership.
So, yeah, let's go ahead andgive what you came to the table
to do, and thank you for beinghere.
Where do we start at?
I mean, it's coming from everyday, every hour of every day.
(03:22):
Something's changing in thisdigital space.
Where do you want to start?
What's happening?
How do we prepare for this?
What do we?
Speaker 3 (03:31):
do with it.
I am somebody who tries to makesense of puzzling conditions,
and so I'll start with a reallyquick story.
I just got a text from anorganizational leader and she
writes in meetings it seemsacceptable to multitask, to look
at a screen or phone or acomputer, and I find it
(03:54):
frustrating to be talking to ateam when a member or two are
typing away, and I get thatfrustration.
We're going to be discussingsomething of that in the mode
switch podcast, which is a workculture podcast I produce each
week, so that's a question we'regoing to have to answer.
But many questions like thattoday for leaders center on how
(04:16):
do we cultivate the kind ofworking communities that we
really hanker for in a digitalera and, frankly, in an era that
is massively distracted.
So my book Digital Overwhelm,attempts to help people
basically do a kind of you mightcall it a metacognitive move,
like we pull back and thinkabout how we're thinking and
(04:38):
speaking to one another in thesedigital spaces.
What's that provoke for you?
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Yes, Wow, I mean, as I'm listening to it, it is
frustrating because we're tryingto multitask and I don't
believe that anybody can do thateffectively.
No, I think you're eitherpresent or you're not present.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
Yeah, yeah, there's a whole spectrum of presence.
But yeah, after you, after yousort of slip into doing more
than one thing at a time, yourattention diffuses really
quickly.
You're not as effective as youthink you are when you're doing
multiple things.
And I do it all the time, likeI try to do it all the time and
it's so foolhardy, but it's very, very hard to resist today,
(05:19):
yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Yeah, but it's driven by the fact that we feel like
we have to as leaders or aspeople that, like companies,
want us to do multiple things,or you're expected to be able to
juggle three or four things andexpect to be good at all of it,
which is not reality, but it'salmost like this unwritten
expectation.
Speaker 3 (05:40):
I'm really glad you mentioned that, because it isn't
always the fault of themultitasker.
She might be provoked tomultitasking by an over busy
schedule or by organizationalresponsibilities that are, you
know, that exceed likereasonable expectations.
And, like you said, I thinkthat's really astute.
(06:02):
What you just said, that we'reall being asked to do very niche
things today.
We're all you know, forinstance, to give one digital
example, because that's where Ilive we're all being asked to be
our own social mediacoordinators.
Today.
We've got to be posting all thetime and creating this snazzy
content that will somehow, youknow, sort of leap out from the
(06:24):
rest of the threads and thestreams that we're always making
our way through.
And so I think a reallyimportant point for leaders
today is to practice this isreally hard but to practice a
kind of grace towards the peopleon our teams, because they are
unfairly being yanked upon bymassive technological
(06:48):
corporations that are reallywell-moneyed and are very
skilled at harvesting ourattention.
And so I think there are forcesout there that really make it
hard to be a sort of one task,single focus worker today.
So I think we got to give eachother grace.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
Yes, I'm glad that you're unpacking this, craig, I
mean, and that you lean rightand say, hey, I want to talk
about this digital space becauseit's everywhere, every day, all
day, you know, throughout theyear.
What advice do you give If I'min a leadership role and I'm
being yanked at, which means I'mgoing to yank at my team?
They're deliverables and we'rewatching the scoreboard.
We want them to be digital, butwe also want them to be good.
(07:32):
Where do I start If I'm a newleader and that's happening to
me like what have you seen?
That are some best practices tosettle us down, to get above
the noise and do the thing thatthat really matters at this
moment.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
They say that a person who's holding a hammer,
to that person, everything lookslike a nail.
And for an academic like me,when I see a problem, I every
you know I'm holding a book I'mlike you should read this book.
That will solve all yourproblems?
Probably not, but I keep hoping.
So I wrote this book DigitalOverwhelm in 2022, 2023.
(08:16):
And it rose out of dozens ofconversations with Gen Z and
millennial professionals who Ithought it was important to talk
to because they are sometimesin the most sort of precarious
places in our organizations,which I think gives them an
unusual level of clarity aboutwhat's happening, what's going
on.
And so I did all theseinterviews and what came out of
it was that there are basicallysix kind of coping mechanisms
(08:37):
that workers use inorganizations today, and I call
these coping mechanisms modes ofcommunication.
So a very quick example, ronald.
So if I'm feeling overwhelmedin a, you know, a multi-person
project, we got the team, we'reall collaborating, we're working
on this and I'm starting tofeel overwhelmed.
(08:57):
One way that I try to deal withthat, or cope with that, is I
write a big fat email that Ihope will get everybody on the
same page, and the problem isthat is my preferred coping
mechanism, but it doesn't workfor everybody else.
You can see where this is going.
So, yeah, in my book I explorethe strengths and weaknesses of
(09:20):
all of our favorite modes ofcommunication to fix things, and
I, you know, I try to give eachmode its due.
Like there's something goodabout writing a long, detailed,
well-crafted email.
I mean that's a real, that's areal gift in a certain way.
But yeah, I mean there areother modes of communication
that we need to practice as well.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
Wow, so you've written a book, digital
Overwhelm and you're addressingthis theme because it's real.
We are overwhelmed.
What do you hope the readersfirst?
Where do they get the book?
And then, what do you hope theyget out of it?
What's the value of it?
Speaker 3 (09:59):
Yes, you can buy digital overwhelm.
You know, on anywhere books aresold Like.
You can start with Amazon, oryou could go to bookstorecom or
or wherever you prefer to getyour books.
But when you get it, whatyou're going to find is that
there are six sort of corechapters to the book, so it's
not a terribly long book, andeach of those chapters analyzes
(10:22):
a different mode ofcommunication, like I said.
And then each chapter isfollowed up by what I call like
a half chapter or a workshop,and that workshop walks you
through how to do something thatI call mode switching, which is
really hard for some of us todo, especially.
I mean, I feel this myself.
I get stuck in a mode.
(10:43):
This is what is going to do thejob.
I think like the man with ahammer and I forget that I need
communicational flexibility indigital spaces.
It's incredibly important indigital spaces.
So my book tries to help peopleto get good at mode switching,
(11:04):
moving from one mode to another.
So yeah, that's sort of theskinny on what I hope people
will find when they open my book.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
Well, I want to unpack a word that you use.
I haven't heard it put that way, but communication flexibility
in this digital space.
Can you unpack that?
I mean it's important, but I'venever heard it put in those
terms, and so I would love toshare with the audience.
Help us understand.
What does that?
Speaker 3 (11:32):
mean yeah, yeah, I'm really glad that you put your
finger on that term, becauseit's something I've been
thinking about a lot lately andit really comes out of trying to
write this book.
Yeah, so one of the mostdominant pieces of advice that
you hear today is that indigitally overwhelming spaces,
we need something called digitalminimalism, and you find a lot
(11:54):
of gurus recommending this, andI like this advice.
To be frank, digital minimalismsays you know, maybe less is
more when it comes to technology, maybe we should use fewer
devices, fewer platforms, andwhen we do choose a device or a
platform, let's make sure thatit aligns with our goals, what
(12:15):
we're trying to to do.
I mean, that's just basic goodsense.
So I appreciate digitalminimalism, but my book really
recommends another value, andthat is digital flexibility, and
that is it's not exactly theopposite truth, but it is
another truth and that is thatnot only is it the case that we
(12:50):
need to, you know, sometimespare away the tools that we're
using because we have too many,too many passwords, too many
usernames, too many, too manyplatforms to keep track of.
How did I connect with thatcoworker?
Was it on text or DM or Slackor email, or did I send a
carrier pigeon, like what wasthe deal, how did I connect?
Or email?
Or did I send a carrier pigeon,like what was the deal, how did
I connect?
So, alongside that, I thinkthat sometimes you don't have a
choice about how many digitalplatforms you're asked to be on.
Sometimes the company or theorganization sort of determines
(13:10):
that for you, and so practicingdigital flexibility may be an
important craft I think that's aterm I try to use a lot in the
book a kind of skill that willenable us to seek workplace
flourishing not justeffectiveness, but well-being in
(13:32):
the workplace.
So that's what I'm trying toget at with this idea of
flexibility in the workplace.
So that's what I'm trying toget at with this idea of
flexibility.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
Don't get stuck.
In other words, don't get stuck.
How do you, craig, how do youcreate community of well-being
when everybody's attached to adigital device?
We lose this human connectionbecause we're so connected
digitally that we're notconnected personally.
Yeah, I don't want to connectwith someone from china and
(14:05):
won't be connected to the peoplethat I'm sitting in the room
with.
Like as soon as we get a break,everybody goes to their device
and they don't even have therelationships in the room.
They're checking emails,responding to emails, checking
phone calls, and I watch.
I do a lot of conferences and Iwatch people come to a
conference to connect with otherpeople in the room.
As soon as they get a break,the last person they connect
with is the people they came toconnect with.
Speaker 3 (14:24):
Yeah.
I feel, that I feel that it'slike a smoke break, like we got
to go like check our phones orsomething like we used to take a
cigarette break.
I am really wrestling with thisquestion.
I do not have an easy answerfor you.
I just have some strategiesthat I'm trying, One approach
(14:46):
that I've seen that is what youmight call like a rules-based
approach, and that is, you know,just agree upon some rules in
the meeting, Like here's what wecare about in this meeting, and
, because we care about thesethings, here's what we're going
to do and we're all going tosort of hold each other
accountable to that.
I have a colleague who uses doyou know those, those bags that
(15:12):
you can kind of hang on the backof your door and you can put
your shoes in them yes, On theback of your bedroom door.
Well, she uses something likethat for for devices, and so
when you come into this meeting,you you put your device in the,
in the shoe bag, so to speak,and then you get it when the
meeting's over.
So I think a rules approach isone way we could do that.
(15:33):
The problem is that very oftenwe have legitimate things we
need to do on our devices and sokind of sequestering them
doesn't always create again thatkind of flexibility we need.
So what I've been trying and Iwonder what you think of this
what I've been trying lately isa sort of collective mindfulness
or collective awareness for ourrelationship to our tools.
(15:56):
So I mean just kind of doingcheck-ins every once in a while
in the meeting and just say likehow's it going?
Like how focused are we, howdistracted are we, how much is
our attention being begged forby algorithmic platforms?
How are we doing?
And I think sometimes just likefrankly saying oh, I'm doing
(16:18):
terrible today, I am sodistracted by this.
You know, this thing that's onmy, on my feed.
I think that can actually be inthe long run a better way to
cultivate sort of health andwell being in a working
community.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
Yeah, I would say yes , Greg.
I mean I love that you'resaying, hey, here's some
strategies I'm trying out.
And that's the good thing aboutthis show is it's real time,
like, here's what I'm trying.
Don't have all the results ofthe survey and what that
experiment is going to like, butI'll tell you.
In South Carolina we just hadto pass a law, which, which I
(16:53):
get it.
I thought it should have beenhandled way before it became a
law that our schools had to barcell phones during school hours
because they were so distractingthat in classes, teachers were
having a difficult time doingwhat they were there to do,
because because the studentswere were on devices and and
students were responding to textmessages and other things that
were a distraction and not evenrelevant to what they should be
(17:14):
doing in the classroom.
So the struggle was I want themto use devices, but I want them
to use them for what we're inthis course for and not all the
other things that are going toping them while they're trying
to get this done.
They created what you just saidfrom from from bell to bell.
They call it focus time.
No devices, no headphones.
No phones.
(17:35):
No devices, no earpods.
All devices from bell to belllike nobody can we want, and
what they're finding out is thatthe students are starting to
talk more to each other.
The students are starting to bemore engaged and ask more
questions because they're notthere's nothing competing for
their time.
So it's working.
And it was a struggle initially.
(17:55):
Parents were complaining.
Why would you complain thatyour student pays more attention
If something happens?
I say there are a lot of waysto get in touch with you without
your kid having a phone.
Speaker 3 (18:10):
Where do we get?
Speaker 2 (18:10):
the art of they're going to find a way for an
emergency to reach out to you.
We don't need 3,000 kids with acell phone to let us know there
was an emergency to reach outto you.
We don't need 3,000 kids with acell phone to let us know there
was an emergency.
So I struggle with that becauseI know some people listen to
this like, well, we got freedomof speech and all these other
rules and regulations, and whatare they taking away?
Are they invading our abilityto make decisions?
I just think that we're indigital.
(18:32):
I love that you got to think ofdigital overwhelm.
I think it's real.
Speaker 3 (18:36):
Yep, it is.
It sure is.
I've had very few peoplequestion the reality of it.
Like most people, when I bringit up, they say oh yeah, they
don't even ask me to define it.
Like I'm an academic so I'mexcited to define things, but
they're like, no, don't defineit, I just know it.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
Like I've totally in that I want to ask you though,
because I do want to.
You know, academic wise, youknow, for all of our listeners
and for me how do you define it?
Because I love the terminology.
I think it's great for leadersto really understand it.
We'd love to know more about itfor you.
So I'm going to order yourbooks because I want to be able
to build it into myconversations with leaders.
I do a lot of work with leaders, but I don't have a good
(19:13):
definition for it.
What is it?
I don't have a good definitionfor what is?
Speaker 3 (19:16):
Well, let me give you thank you for that question.
By the way, I'm I'm honored, solet me give you a picture of
how I think about digitaloverwhelm.
That sort of leads to mydefinition.
So If you've ever been to ashore, whether an ocean shore or
a lake shore, you know the riskof riptides or surface currents
(19:41):
that that can move swiftly andsort of carry you along, yes,
into a place you don't want togo necessarily, and so I'm.
I live in Michigan and LakeMichigan is notorious for having
these riptides, so they alwayshave flags up to like indicate
whether or not what the dangeris for riptides.
But for me, rapid technologicaldevelopment is the riptide that
(20:06):
so many of us deal with today.
Sometimes this is in funny orfrustrating or irksome ways,
just like a new update on yourphone or a new software update
or some set of notifications fora new platform that your
company wants to try out, andyou just feel sort of irritated.
But sometimes the technologicaldevelopment, like as in the
(20:30):
case with artificialintelligence, is truly
overwhelming.
You actually hit what EthanMollick has called three
sleepless nights where you'relike I don't know what I'm doing
, I don't understand my jobanymore, the conditions have
changed way too much, and sothat's the sort of riptide that
(20:50):
we get in and we're like do I,how do I deal with that?
But there's another kind ofcurrent that I think is also
important, and this is anupwelling current, so not one
that moves along the surface,but one that rises from the
deeps.
And for many of us, these areour emotional responses to
technological development, um,and some of these can be quite
(21:14):
diverse, like they might be veryexcited, they might be
enthusiastic, they might bedeflated, they might be
exhausted or, just frankly,bored.
So when you have those twokinds of currents the riptides
that move across the surface ofour work lives, and then the
upwelling currents of ouremotional responses to work and
(21:36):
especially digital work, today,you get digital overwhelm, um,
and so digital overwhelm is theintersection of tech, rapid
technological development and avery sort of human emotional
response to that yeah, thank youfor explanation, because know
we talk about it.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
But I'll say as I was explaining it as I say, there's
just too much thrown at us atone time.
Yeah, and as fascinating as thebrain is, everybody operates
different and for some peopleit's just like it can't keep up
anymore.
They feel like, hey, it'soutpacing them and you hear that
well, we're going to bereplaced by some kind of
technology at some point.
(22:17):
We're just, we're not fastenough, we can't think as quick
and we can't keep up with somuch thrown at us.
And so people begin to feellike, you know, there's no place
for them, because they justcan't keep up with the changes.
And they do happen rapidly.
I I mean, they really do fromminute to minute.
Speaker 3 (22:33):
Yes, yeah, you're right, you're right, and I think
that this quickly touches onmatters of worker justice, you
might say, or worker equity.
I mean people's lives are mademore precarious by rapid
technological development.
There's a writer I often referto, a Gen Z economist, named
Kyla Scanlon, and she writes awonderful Substack newsletter
(22:57):
and she has pointed out that alot of technological development
today is not very democratic.
It's done by, basically bypeople in Silicon Valley, and
they're not consulting with usabout whether we want a piece of
technology or not.
They're just sort of thrustingit out into the world and let's
see what happens.
Many times we enjoy it orbenefit from it, but, yeah,
(23:19):
sometimes it would be reallygreat to be a part of the
process of its development anddesign.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
Wow, as you said, I was thinking.
The question that came to mind,craig, is being that they're
making those decisions withoutconsulting with the actual
consumers, and most of thosethose products or services are
you know they.
I'm sure they say, hey, we wantto make it better, but there
also is a huge profit marginassociated with it as well.
What's the price that we, youthink we will pay over time if
(23:45):
we don't get our arms wrappedaround and get this under
control?
What's going to happen to ourkids being able to really
process and keep up and be ableto still be human beings versus
little robots?
What are we going to pay forthis, humans, if we don't?
Speaker 1 (24:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
Somehow more effectively.
My mood kind of shifts day byday about this.
I think it's.
I'm not a very goodprognosticator, so I don't know
how to anticipate where this isgoing to take us.
Yes, I think I feel some of thecost right now in this sort of
(24:22):
low-grade sense of uncertaintyand sometimes even something
like dread, and so I think thatthere is a cost that we're
feeling today.
I don't know Correlation is notcausation, but there is a real
problem with workerdisengagement today, very high
levels of worker disengagement.
(24:43):
I just saw a Gallup poll thatcited that something like maybe
31 percent of workers feelengaged in their work.
Workers feel engaged in theirwork.
That's a huge percentage ofpeople who are just like feeling
profound uncertainty and ennuiand just the uninterestedness in
their work.
So I don't know about the coststo come.
(25:05):
I think the kids are bright andI think they're smart and
adaptable and so I have somehope.
But I do know a bit about thecost right now and and they're
pretty severe.
So I'm glad shows like yoursare are exploring Like how do we
, how do we stay human inleadership today?
Yes, love it.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
Well, as we look at time, I want to be able to to
close out for us a couple ofthings.
What advice do you give us ordo you share with the audience
that's listening and people,especially people in the
leadership role of you?
You're speaking up, you'releading that course.
What advice do you or stepswould you tell us?
Hey, this digital world is real.
Here are three things you cando to start being able to do it
(25:46):
more effectively.
What would you leave with theaudience?
Speaker 3 (25:49):
OK, I'll try, I'll give this a shot.
I'll try, I'll give this a shot.
So, first of all, I thinknaming the digital overwhelm and
being frank about it, likeyou're being is, is a really
good first practice.
It can be a little hard toadmit that it's too much, but
naming it, identifying it andsharing that with other people
is in a non-complainy sort ofway, but in you know, almost
(26:11):
like in a diagnostic sort of way, this is what's going on, this
is what we're experiencing.
It's not that we're lazy ordumb, it is really too much.
The second thing is, as much asis possible, I think, try to
(26:31):
preserve the sense thatcommunication from another human
is a gift as much as possible.
It's not always possible,sometimes it's, you know, you're
just too frantic for that.
But I think, as often as youcan, take a sort of Sabbath
moment and say, hey, this is areal privilege that I have these
co-workers and that this personhas tried to communicate
something to help me in some way.
(26:52):
I think that can also be prettylife-giving.
And lastly, I'll conclude witha tactic, and that is that maybe
we should spend more timecultivating single-use
technologies.
So I'm thinking about my MacBook, which I'm using right now for
this podcast.
It is a multi-use technology.
(27:12):
In fact, almost everything I dofor my job I do on this MacBook
, but I also try to havesingle-use technologies.
So a notebook and a pen, thoseare basically single-use
technologies.
A book is another single-usetechnology and, you know, having
more of those in our livesthere can be digital versions as
(27:36):
well like a Kindle is veryclose to being a single-use
technology.
Having more of those, I think,can help us to keep our head
above the waters of digitaloverwhelm.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
Yes, I love that you approached it from a place of.
Let me be positive about this.
I don't want to come across ascomplaining, let's just
acknowledge it in observation.
I'm noticing this, yes, yeah,and so I think that's huge for
us.
Is, you know, not not beblindsided by it, but just
notice what, what shifts arehappening and stay positive
(28:07):
about it.
It doesn't sound like you'relazy or complaining or you're
not capable to have the capacity.
I love that.
Can you tell us where do wefind your book again and then
how do we reach you again?
Speaker 3 (28:17):
So I think I can answer that question with a
single link, a URL, and that ispeople can connect with me and
my book at themodeswitchcom sothat's all one word,
themodeswitchcom and therethey'll find books that I've
written.
They'll also find a freenewsletter that addresses
(28:38):
questions like these on aweek-by-week basis.
It's a work culture newslettercalled the Mode Switch, and so
you're seeing a theme here,ronald, right, and so that's
probably the best way to connectwith me and with the book.
I would be so grateful ifpeople would check out digital
overwhelm, and then I would loveto hear from them as well.
(28:59):
I'd love to hear from you whenyou check it out.
Let me know your thoughts, sendme a note.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
Yes, and you've been.
You've been a great, great,great guest and you brought
something to the table that wehave not discussed.
I mean, it is happening around.
So you're the first guest andthank you for giving us
something new to share andshowcase with our audience.
You know Digital Overwind wasreal.
Please follow, you know, craigand go out to his website and
get the free newsletter anddefinitely invest in the book.
(29:25):
It's happening around us.
So maybe some answers and he'dlove to hear from you.
Thank you all for joiningUnpacked with Ron Harvey,
allowing us to spend a couple ofminutes with you and helping to
add value and make you moreeffective at whatever that
journey is that you're on orcalling that you're supposed to
be doing to take better care ofyour people around you that
you're responsible to.
Until next time, craig and Iwill sign off and we wish you a
(29:46):
phenomenal day and thank you forjoining Unpacked with Ron
Harvey.
Once again, have a great dayeveryone.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
Well, we hope you enjoyed this edition of Unpacked
Podcast with leadershipconsultant Ron Harvey.
Remember to join us everyMonday as Ron unpacks sound
advice, providing real answersfor real leadership challenges.
Until next time, remember toadd value and make a difference
where you are, for the peopleyou serve, because people always
(30:15):
matter.
Welcome to Unpacked Podcast with your host
leadership consultant, ronHarvey of GlobalCore Strategies
and Consulting.
Ron believes that leadership isthe fundamental driver towards
making a difference.
So now to find out more of whatit means to unpack leadership,
here's your host, ron Harvey.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Good morning.
This is Ron Harvey, the VicePresident, chief Operating
Officer for Global CoreStrategies and Consulting, based
out of Columbia, south Carolina.
In that company, what we do isreally one thing, and one thing
only, that we say we're good atWe'll wait for the verdict to
come in, but we spend all of ourtime really helping leaders be
more connected to the peoplethat they're responsible for and
(00:42):
responsible to.
How do they effectively leadand take care of the people that
are getting the work done forthem, whether that's through
trust or communication orempowering you name it
delegating.
How do you get better at that?
I wish there was a handbookthat we could hand out.
It changes so fast that ourstrategies change constantly,
but we do know that it does makea difference to have a really
effective leader, and that's whowe talk to.
(01:03):
So, happy to pause, though, thepodcast is about unpacked, not
even about our company.
It's about how do we bringguests on the show that unpack
something that you can take awayand implement today to make you
more effective at what you'retrying to get done.
That's the whole premises.
We're going to talk openly andhonestly and candidly about how
do we add value to you forlistening.
So thank you for listening.
(01:30):
So I'm super excited for ourguest.
Craig is here with us.
Always hand the microphone toour guests and allow them to do
what I'll probably mess up.
They get to introducethemselves without me messing up
anything about who they are.
So, craig, I'm going to handthe microphone to you and here's
your opportunity.
What do you want us to knowabout you?
Speaker 3 (01:42):
Well, hi, ronald, it's really great to be in your
show and I so appreciate.
As someone who is anorganizational follower more
than an organizational leader, Ifeel the need for good
leadership today, and so I'mglad your podcast cultivates
those kinds of conversations.
I'm an organizationalresearcher and a professor of
(02:03):
communication at KelvinUniversity, which is in Grand
Rapids, michigan, and I studywhat makes for work community
well-being, and certainly a bigpart of that is what you're
talking about all the time onthis show.
So my wife and I live in GrandRapids, we have four kids who
(02:26):
are sort of scattered around theMidwest, and we have a little
introverted shih tzu who isafraid of two things every thing
.
So we enjoy his company as asort of couch companion and,
yeah, so again, I'm reallygrateful to be here.
I'm hoping to talk about apeculiar aspect of leadership
(02:51):
today, and that is digitaloverwhelm.
So that's what I'm hoping wecan chat about today.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
Well, craig, thank you for sharing who you are, and
I'm always going to unpack, sowe won't even hesitate, we won't
waste any time.
We'll dive into that, becauseit is a digital world.
I mean, it is a part ofleadership.
So, yeah, let's go ahead andgive what you came to the table
to do, and thank you for beinghere.
Where do we start at?
I mean, it's coming from everyday, every hour of every day.
(03:22):
Something's changing in thisdigital space.
Where do you want to start?
What's happening?
How do we prepare for this?
What do we?
Speaker 3 (03:31):
do with it.
I am somebody who tries to makesense of puzzling conditions,
and so I'll start with a reallyquick story.
I just got a text from anorganizational leader and she
writes in meetings it seemsacceptable to multitask, to look
at a screen or phone or acomputer, and I find it
(03:54):
frustrating to be talking to ateam when a member or two are
typing away, and I get thatfrustration.
We're going to be discussingsomething of that in the mode
switch podcast, which is a workculture podcast I produce each
week, so that's a question we'regoing to have to answer.
But many questions like thattoday for leaders center on how
(04:16):
do we cultivate the kind ofworking communities that we
really hanker for in a digitalera and, frankly, in an era that
is massively distracted.
So my book Digital Overwhelm,attempts to help people
basically do a kind of you mightcall it a metacognitive move,
like we pull back and thinkabout how we're thinking and
(04:38):
speaking to one another in thesedigital spaces.
What's that provoke for you?
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Yes, Wow, I mean, as I'm listening to it, it is
frustrating because we're tryingto multitask and I don't
believe that anybody can do thateffectively.
No, I think you're eitherpresent or you're not present.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
Yeah, yeah, there's a whole spectrum of presence.
But yeah, after you, after yousort of slip into doing more
than one thing at a time, yourattention diffuses really
quickly.
You're not as effective as youthink you are when you're doing
multiple things.
And I do it all the time, likeI try to do it all the time and
it's so foolhardy, but it's very, very hard to resist today,
(05:19):
yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Yeah, but it's driven by the fact that we feel like
we have to as leaders or aspeople that, like companies,
want us to do multiple things,or you're expected to be able to
juggle three or four things andexpect to be good at all of it,
which is not reality, but it'salmost like this unwritten
expectation.
Speaker 3 (05:40):
I'm really glad you mentioned that, because it isn't
always the fault of themultitasker.
She might be provoked tomultitasking by an over busy
schedule or by organizationalresponsibilities that are, you
know, that exceed likereasonable expectations.
And, like you said, I thinkthat's really astute.
(06:02):
What you just said, that we'reall being asked to do very niche
things today.
We're all you know, forinstance, to give one digital
example, because that's where Ilive we're all being asked to be
our own social mediacoordinators.
Today.
We've got to be posting all thetime and creating this snazzy
content that will somehow, youknow, sort of leap out from the
(06:24):
rest of the threads and thestreams that we're always making
our way through.
And so I think a reallyimportant point for leaders
today is to practice this isreally hard but to practice a
kind of grace towards the peopleon our teams, because they are
unfairly being yanked upon bymassive technological
(06:48):
corporations that are reallywell-moneyed and are very
skilled at harvesting ourattention.
And so I think there are forcesout there that really make it
hard to be a sort of one task,single focus worker today.
So I think we got to give eachother grace.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
Yes, I'm glad that you're unpacking this, craig, I
mean, and that you lean rightand say, hey, I want to talk
about this digital space becauseit's everywhere, every day, all
day, you know, throughout theyear.
What advice do you give If I'min a leadership role and I'm
being yanked at, which means I'mgoing to yank at my team?
They're deliverables and we'rewatching the scoreboard.
We want them to be digital, butwe also want them to be good.
(07:32):
Where do I start If I'm a newleader and that's happening to
me like what have you seen?
That are some best practices tosettle us down, to get above
the noise and do the thing thatthat really matters at this
moment.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
They say that a person who's holding a hammer,
to that person, everything lookslike a nail.
And for an academic like me,when I see a problem, I every
you know I'm holding a book I'mlike you should read this book.
That will solve all yourproblems?
Probably not, but I keep hoping.
So I wrote this book DigitalOverwhelm in 2022, 2023.
(08:16):
And it rose out of dozens ofconversations with Gen Z and
millennial professionals who Ithought it was important to talk
to because they are sometimesin the most sort of precarious
places in our organizations,which I think gives them an
unusual level of clarity aboutwhat's happening, what's going
on.
And so I did all theseinterviews and what came out of
it was that there are basicallysix kind of coping mechanisms
(08:37):
that workers use inorganizations today, and I call
these coping mechanisms modes ofcommunication.
So a very quick example, ronald.
So if I'm feeling overwhelmedin a, you know, a multi-person
project, we got the team, we'reall collaborating, we're working
on this and I'm starting tofeel overwhelmed.
(08:57):
One way that I try to deal withthat, or cope with that, is I
write a big fat email that Ihope will get everybody on the
same page, and the problem isthat is my preferred coping
mechanism, but it doesn't workfor everybody else.
You can see where this is going.
So, yeah, in my book I explorethe strengths and weaknesses of
(09:20):
all of our favorite modes ofcommunication to fix things, and
I, you know, I try to give eachmode its due.
Like there's something goodabout writing a long, detailed,
well-crafted email.
I mean that's a real, that's areal gift in a certain way.
But yeah, I mean there areother modes of communication
that we need to practice as well.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
Wow, so you've written a book, digital
Overwhelm and you're addressingthis theme because it's real.
We are overwhelmed.
What do you hope the readersfirst?
Where do they get the book?
And then, what do you hope theyget out of it?
What's the value of it?
Speaker 3 (09:59):
Yes, you can buy digital overwhelm.
You know, on anywhere books aresold Like.
You can start with Amazon, oryou could go to bookstorecom or
or wherever you prefer to getyour books.
But when you get it, whatyou're going to find is that
there are six sort of corechapters to the book, so it's
not a terribly long book, andeach of those chapters analyzes
(10:22):
a different mode ofcommunication, like I said.
And then each chapter isfollowed up by what I call like
a half chapter or a workshop,and that workshop walks you
through how to do something thatI call mode switching, which is
really hard for some of us todo, especially.
I mean, I feel this myself.
I get stuck in a mode.
(10:43):
This is what is going to do thejob.
I think like the man with ahammer and I forget that I need
communicational flexibility indigital spaces.
It's incredibly important indigital spaces.
So my book tries to help peopleto get good at mode switching,
(11:04):
moving from one mode to another.
So yeah, that's sort of theskinny on what I hope people
will find when they open my book.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
Well, I want to unpack a word that you use.
I haven't heard it put that way, but communication flexibility
in this digital space.
Can you unpack that?
I mean it's important, but I'venever heard it put in those
terms, and so I would love toshare with the audience.
Help us understand.
What does that?
Speaker 3 (11:32):
mean yeah, yeah, I'm really glad that you put your
finger on that term, becauseit's something I've been
thinking about a lot lately andit really comes out of trying to
write this book.
Yeah, so one of the mostdominant pieces of advice that
you hear today is that indigitally overwhelming spaces,
we need something called digitalminimalism, and you find a lot
(11:54):
of gurus recommending this, andI like this advice.
To be frank, digital minimalismsays you know, maybe less is
more when it comes to technology, maybe we should use fewer
devices, fewer platforms, andwhen we do choose a device or a
platform, let's make sure thatit aligns with our goals, what
(12:15):
we're trying to to do.
I mean, that's just basic goodsense.
So I appreciate digitalminimalism, but my book really
recommends another value, andthat is digital flexibility, and
that is it's not exactly theopposite truth, but it is
another truth and that is thatnot only is it the case that we
(12:50):
need to, you know, sometimespare away the tools that we're
using because we have too many,too many passwords, too many
usernames, too many, too manyplatforms to keep track of.
How did I connect with thatcoworker?
Was it on text or DM or Slackor email, or did I send a
carrier pigeon, like what wasthe deal, how did I connect?
Or email?
Or did I send a carrier pigeon,like what was the deal, how did
I connect?
So, alongside that, I thinkthat sometimes you don't have a
choice about how many digitalplatforms you're asked to be on.
Sometimes the company or theorganization sort of determines
(13:10):
that for you, and so practicingdigital flexibility may be an
important craft I think that's aterm I try to use a lot in the
book a kind of skill that willenable us to seek workplace
flourishing not justeffectiveness, but well-being in
(13:32):
the workplace.
So that's what I'm trying toget at with this idea of
flexibility in the workplace.
So that's what I'm trying toget at with this idea of
flexibility.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
Don't get stuck.
In other words, don't get stuck.
How do you, craig, how do youcreate community of well-being
when everybody's attached to adigital device?
We lose this human connectionbecause we're so connected
digitally that we're notconnected personally.
Yeah, I don't want to connectwith someone from china and
(14:05):
won't be connected to the peoplethat I'm sitting in the room
with.
Like as soon as we get a break,everybody goes to their device
and they don't even have therelationships in the room.
They're checking emails,responding to emails, checking
phone calls, and I watch.
I do a lot of conferences and Iwatch people come to a
conference to connect with otherpeople in the room.
As soon as they get a break,the last person they connect
with is the people they came toconnect with.
Speaker 3 (14:24):
Yeah.
I feel, that I feel that it'slike a smoke break, like we got
to go like check our phones orsomething like we used to take a
cigarette break.
I am really wrestling with thisquestion.
I do not have an easy answerfor you.
I just have some strategiesthat I'm trying, One approach
(14:46):
that I've seen that is what youmight call like a rules-based
approach, and that is, you know,just agree upon some rules in
the meeting, Like here's what wecare about in this meeting, and
, because we care about thesethings, here's what we're going
to do and we're all going tosort of hold each other
accountable to that.
I have a colleague who uses doyou know those, those bags that
(15:12):
you can kind of hang on the backof your door and you can put
your shoes in them yes, On theback of your bedroom door.
Well, she uses something likethat for for devices, and so
when you come into this meeting,you you put your device in the,
in the shoe bag, so to speak,and then you get it when the
meeting's over.
So I think a rules approach isone way we could do that.
(15:33):
The problem is that very oftenwe have legitimate things we
need to do on our devices and sokind of sequestering them
doesn't always create again thatkind of flexibility we need.
So what I've been trying and Iwonder what you think of this
what I've been trying lately isa sort of collective mindfulness
or collective awareness for ourrelationship to our tools.
(15:56):
So I mean just kind of doingcheck-ins every once in a while
in the meeting and just say likehow's it going?
Like how focused are we, howdistracted are we, how much is
our attention being begged forby algorithmic platforms?
How are we doing?
And I think sometimes just likefrankly saying oh, I'm doing
(16:18):
terrible today, I am sodistracted by this.
You know, this thing that's onmy, on my feed.
I think that can actually be inthe long run a better way to
cultivate sort of health andwell being in a working
community.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
Yeah, I would say yes , Greg.
I mean I love that you'resaying, hey, here's some
strategies I'm trying out.
And that's the good thing aboutthis show is it's real time,
like, here's what I'm trying.
Don't have all the results ofthe survey and what that
experiment is going to like, butI'll tell you.
In South Carolina we just hadto pass a law, which, which I
(16:53):
get it.
I thought it should have beenhandled way before it became a
law that our schools had to barcell phones during school hours
because they were so distractingthat in classes, teachers were
having a difficult time doingwhat they were there to do,
because because the studentswere were on devices and and
students were responding to textmessages and other things that
were a distraction and not evenrelevant to what they should be
(17:14):
doing in the classroom.
So the struggle was I want themto use devices, but I want them
to use them for what we're inthis course for and not all the
other things that are going toping them while they're trying
to get this done.
They created what you just saidfrom from from bell to bell.
They call it focus time.
No devices, no headphones.
No phones.
(17:35):
No devices, no earpods.
All devices from bell to belllike nobody can we want, and
what they're finding out is thatthe students are starting to
talk more to each other.
The students are starting to bemore engaged and ask more
questions because they're notthere's nothing competing for
their time.
So it's working.
And it was a struggle initially.
(17:55):
Parents were complaining.
Why would you complain thatyour student pays more attention
If something happens?
I say there are a lot of waysto get in touch with you without
your kid having a phone.
Speaker 3 (18:10):
Where do we get?
Speaker 2 (18:10):
the art of they're going to find a way for an
emergency to reach out to you.
We don't need 3,000 kids with acell phone to let us know there
was an emergency to reach outto you.
We don't need 3,000 kids with acell phone to let us know there
was an emergency.
So I struggle with that becauseI know some people listen to
this like, well, we got freedomof speech and all these other
rules and regulations, and whatare they taking away?
Are they invading our abilityto make decisions?
I just think that we're indigital.
(18:32):
I love that you got to think ofdigital overwhelm.
I think it's real.
Speaker 3 (18:36):
Yep, it is.
It sure is.
I've had very few peoplequestion the reality of it.
Like most people, when I bringit up, they say oh yeah, they
don't even ask me to define it.
Like I'm an academic so I'mexcited to define things, but
they're like, no, don't defineit, I just know it.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
Like I've totally in that I want to ask you though,
because I do want to.
You know, academic wise, youknow, for all of our listeners
and for me how do you define it?
Because I love the terminology.
I think it's great for leadersto really understand it.
We'd love to know more about itfor you.
So I'm going to order yourbooks because I want to be able
to build it into myconversations with leaders.
I do a lot of work with leaders, but I don't have a good
(19:13):
definition for it.
What is it?
I don't have a good definitionfor what is?
Speaker 3 (19:16):
Well, let me give you thank you for that question.
By the way, I'm I'm honored, solet me give you a picture of
how I think about digitaloverwhelm.
That sort of leads to mydefinition.
So If you've ever been to ashore, whether an ocean shore or
a lake shore, you know the riskof riptides or surface currents
(19:41):
that that can move swiftly andsort of carry you along, yes,
into a place you don't want togo necessarily, and so I'm.
I live in Michigan and LakeMichigan is notorious for having
these riptides, so they alwayshave flags up to like indicate
whether or not what the dangeris for riptides.
But for me, rapid technologicaldevelopment is the riptide that
(20:06):
so many of us deal with today.
Sometimes this is in funny orfrustrating or irksome ways,
just like a new update on yourphone or a new software update
or some set of notifications fora new platform that your
company wants to try out, andyou just feel sort of irritated.
But sometimes the technologicaldevelopment, like as in the
(20:30):
case with artificialintelligence, is truly
overwhelming.
You actually hit what EthanMollick has called three
sleepless nights where you'relike I don't know what I'm doing
, I don't understand my jobanymore, the conditions have
changed way too much, and sothat's the sort of riptide that
(20:50):
we get in and we're like do I,how do I deal with that?
But there's another kind ofcurrent that I think is also
important, and this is anupwelling current, so not one
that moves along the surface,but one that rises from the
deeps.
And for many of us, these areour emotional responses to
technological development, um,and some of these can be quite
(21:14):
diverse, like they might be veryexcited, they might be
enthusiastic, they might bedeflated, they might be
exhausted or, just frankly,bored.
So when you have those twokinds of currents the riptides
that move across the surface ofour work lives, and then the
upwelling currents of ouremotional responses to work and
(21:36):
especially digital work, today,you get digital overwhelm, um,
and so digital overwhelm is theintersection of tech, rapid
technological development and avery sort of human emotional
response to that yeah, thank youfor explanation, because know
we talk about it.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
But I'll say as I was explaining it as I say, there's
just too much thrown at us atone time.
Yeah, and as fascinating as thebrain is, everybody operates
different and for some peopleit's just like it can't keep up
anymore.
They feel like, hey, it'soutpacing them and you hear that
well, we're going to bereplaced by some kind of
technology at some point.
(22:17):
We're just, we're not fastenough, we can't think as quick
and we can't keep up with somuch thrown at us.
And so people begin to feellike, you know, there's no place
for them, because they justcan't keep up with the changes.
And they do happen rapidly.
I I mean, they really do fromminute to minute.
Speaker 3 (22:33):
Yes, yeah, you're right, you're right, and I think
that this quickly touches onmatters of worker justice, you
might say, or worker equity.
I mean people's lives are mademore precarious by rapid
technological development.
There's a writer I often referto, a Gen Z economist, named
Kyla Scanlon, and she writes awonderful Substack newsletter
(22:57):
and she has pointed out that alot of technological development
today is not very democratic.
It's done by, basically bypeople in Silicon Valley, and
they're not consulting with usabout whether we want a piece of
technology or not.
They're just sort of thrustingit out into the world and let's
see what happens.
Many times we enjoy it orbenefit from it, but, yeah,
(23:19):
sometimes it would be reallygreat to be a part of the
process of its development anddesign.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
Wow, as you said, I was thinking.
The question that came to mind,craig, is being that they're
making those decisions withoutconsulting with the actual
consumers, and most of thosethose products or services are
you know they.
I'm sure they say, hey, we wantto make it better, but there
also is a huge profit marginassociated with it as well.
What's the price that we, youthink we will pay over time if
(23:45):
we don't get our arms wrappedaround and get this under
control?
What's going to happen to ourkids being able to really
process and keep up and be ableto still be human beings versus
little robots?
What are we going to pay forthis, humans, if we don't?
Speaker 1 (24:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
Somehow more effectively.
My mood kind of shifts day byday about this.
I think it's.
I'm not a very goodprognosticator, so I don't know
how to anticipate where this isgoing to take us.
Yes, I think I feel some of thecost right now in this sort of
(24:22):
low-grade sense of uncertaintyand sometimes even something
like dread, and so I think thatthere is a cost that we're
feeling today.
I don't know Correlation is notcausation, but there is a real
problem with workerdisengagement today, very high
levels of worker disengagement.
(24:43):
I just saw a Gallup poll thatcited that something like maybe
31 percent of workers feelengaged in their work.
Workers feel engaged in theirwork.
That's a huge percentage ofpeople who are just like feeling
profound uncertainty and ennuiand just the uninterestedness in
their work.
So I don't know about the coststo come.
(25:05):
I think the kids are bright andI think they're smart and
adaptable and so I have somehope.
But I do know a bit about thecost right now and and they're
pretty severe.
So I'm glad shows like yoursare are exploring Like how do we
, how do we stay human inleadership today?
Yes, love it.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
Well, as we look at time, I want to be able to to
close out for us a couple ofthings.
What advice do you give us ordo you share with the audience
that's listening and people,especially people in the
leadership role of you?
You're speaking up, you'releading that course.
What advice do you or stepswould you tell us?
Hey, this digital world is real.
Here are three things you cando to start being able to do it
(25:46):
more effectively.
What would you leave with theaudience?
Speaker 3 (25:49):
OK, I'll try, I'll give this a shot.
I'll try, I'll give this a shot.
So, first of all, I thinknaming the digital overwhelm and
being frank about it, likeyou're being is, is a really
good first practice.
It can be a little hard toadmit that it's too much, but
naming it, identifying it andsharing that with other people
is in a non-complainy sort ofway, but in you know, almost
(26:11):
like in a diagnostic sort of way, this is what's going on, this
is what we're experiencing.
It's not that we're lazy ordumb, it is really too much.
The second thing is, as much asis possible, I think, try to
(26:31):
preserve the sense thatcommunication from another human
is a gift as much as possible.
It's not always possible,sometimes it's, you know, you're
just too frantic for that.
But I think, as often as youcan, take a sort of Sabbath
moment and say, hey, this is areal privilege that I have these
co-workers and that this personhas tried to communicate
something to help me in some way.
(26:52):
I think that can also be prettylife-giving.
And lastly, I'll conclude witha tactic, and that is that maybe
we should spend more timecultivating single-use
technologies.
So I'm thinking about my MacBook, which I'm using right now for
this podcast.
It is a multi-use technology.
(27:12):
In fact, almost everything I dofor my job I do on this MacBook
, but I also try to havesingle-use technologies.
So a notebook and a pen, thoseare basically single-use
technologies.
A book is another single-usetechnology and, you know, having
more of those in our livesthere can be digital versions as
(27:36):
well like a Kindle is veryclose to being a single-use
technology.
Having more of those, I think,can help us to keep our head
above the waters of digitaloverwhelm.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
Yes, I love that you approached it from a place of.
Let me be positive about this.
I don't want to come across ascomplaining, let's just
acknowledge it in observation.
I'm noticing this, yes, yeah,and so I think that's huge for
us.
Is, you know, not not beblindsided by it, but just
notice what, what shifts arehappening and stay positive
(28:07):
about it.
It doesn't sound like you'relazy or complaining or you're
not capable to have the capacity.
I love that.
Can you tell us where do wefind your book again and then
how do we reach you again?
Speaker 3 (28:17):
So I think I can answer that question with a
single link, a URL, and that ispeople can connect with me and
my book at themodeswitchcom sothat's all one word,
themodeswitchcom and therethey'll find books that I've
written.
They'll also find a freenewsletter that addresses
(28:38):
questions like these on aweek-by-week basis.
It's a work culture newslettercalled the Mode Switch, and so
you're seeing a theme here,ronald, right, and so that's
probably the best way to connectwith me and with the book.
I would be so grateful ifpeople would check out digital
overwhelm, and then I would loveto hear from them as well.
(28:59):
I'd love to hear from you whenyou check it out.
Let me know your thoughts, sendme a note.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
Yes, and you've been.
You've been a great, great,great guest and you brought
something to the table that wehave not discussed.
I mean, it is happening around.
So you're the first guest andthank you for giving us
something new to share andshowcase with our audience.
You know Digital Overwind wasreal.
Please follow, you know, craigand go out to his website and
get the free newsletter anddefinitely invest in the book.
(29:25):
It's happening around us.
So maybe some answers and he'dlove to hear from you.
Thank you all for joiningUnpacked with Ron Harvey,
allowing us to spend a couple ofminutes with you and helping to
add value and make you moreeffective at whatever that
journey is that you're on orcalling that you're supposed to
be doing to take better care ofyour people around you that
you're responsible to.
Until next time, craig and Iwill sign off and we wish you a
(29:46):
phenomenal day and thank you forjoining Unpacked with Ron
Harvey.
Once again, have a great dayeveryone.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
Well, we hope you enjoyed this edition of Unpacked
Podcast with leadershipconsultant Ron Harvey.
Remember to join us everyMonday as Ron unpacks sound
advice, providing real answersfor real leadership challenges.
Until next time, remember toadd value and make a difference
where you are, for the peopleyou serve, because people always
(30:15):
matter.
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