December 30, 2024 • 33 mins
This episode features an in-depth discussion on the intersection of leadership and negotiation, emphasizing the critical skills needed for effective communication and relationship building. Ron and Andres explore how understanding negotiation dynamics can enhance a leader's effectiveness while providing practical strategies to navigate challenges in both realms.
• Exploring the role of leadership in effective negotiation
• Communication skills as the cornerstone of leadership
• The difference between selling and buying
• Managing fear and emotions in negotiation
• Importance of preparation in discussing money
• Building trust and social capital
• Strategies for establishing reliability in leadership and negotiation
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The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the speakers and guests and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any organization or entity. The information provided in this podcast is intended for educational and informational purposes only and should not be considered as professional advice. Listeners should consult with their own professional advisors before implementing any suggestions or recommendations made in this podcast. The speakers and guests are not responsible for any actions taken by listeners based on the information presented in this podcast. The podcast is not intended to be a substitute for professional advice or services. The speakers and guests make no representations or warranties of any kind, express or implied, about the completeness, accuracy, reliability, suitability or availability with respect to the information, products, services, or related graphics contained in this ...
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Unpacked Podcast with your host
leadership consultant, RonHarvey of Global Core Strategies
and Consulting.
Ron's delighted to have youjoin us as he unpacks and shares
his leadership experience,designed to help you in your
leadership journey.
Ron believes that leadership isthe fundamental driver towards
making a difference.
(00:21):
So now to find out more of whatit means to unpack leadership,
here's your host, Ron Harvey.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Good morning.
This is Ron Harvey, the VicePresident and the Chief
Operating Officer for GlobalCore Strategies, and we're a
leadership development firmbased out of Columbia, South
Carolina.
Our primary role in theorganization is to help leaders
be better connected to theirworkforce so they can take care
of them while at the same time,being successful, profitable and
productive.
So we want leaders to be betterconnected to the organizations
and the people that are countingon them, that they're
(00:49):
responsible for.
So we're based out of Columbus,South Carolina, but what I
always do is we do a podcast andit's called Unpacked with Ron
Harvey, and for those who havejoined us before, thank you.
And those that have joined usfor the first time, welcome to
the show.
I bring guests from around theworld on Unpacked with Ron
Harvey.
The beauty of this is there areno questions in advance.
We really have an on-spot,real-time, almost TV show,
(01:10):
Fireside Chat and we talk aboutleadership, challenges and
issues of success.
We hope we give you somethingthat makes you more effective at
leading your organization,whether it's big, whether it's
C-suite, whether it'sentrepreneur, whatever that
thing is on a non-profit.
We hope we answer questions.
So today I'm super excited tohave someone joining us.
You know, we were scheduled fora week ago and we couldn't get
that because of some lifehappens and so I couldn't sit
(01:32):
down with him last week.
But we're here this week.
He was very flexible.
He said Ron, tell me when, tellme where I'll be there.
So we're on this week and we'regoing to record with Andreas
and he'll do his introductionand then we'll dive into our
questions.
So, Andreas, thank you forbeing flexible and thank you for
being with us this morning.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
Thanks for having me, Ronnie.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Excited to chat today .
Yes, yes, is there anythingyou'd like to share?
You know I don't do a longintro because I always say
nobody introduces you betterthan you.
Can you tell them a little bitabout who you are, what you want
them to know, the business thatyou're in?
I have your bio, but I haveyour bio.
But I always afford theopportunity to my guests to
share what they want to sharewith our audience.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
Sure, just for a little bit of context.
So I run the ShapiroNegotiations Institute here,
based in Baltimore, maryland,and we are a global negotiation
and influence trainingconsulting firm.
So we basically work withtypically larger kind of fortune
5,000 types, but companies ofall sizes, and what we do is we
train them how to negotiatewhether it's sales, procurement
leaders, project managers,program managers, engineers, any
(02:28):
type of function across justabout every industry, and we do
it globally.
So we're training sevenlanguages and we've been around
for 29 years now about to be 30.
And so that's a little bitabout kind of who we are and
what context that we bring tothat greenspan.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Yeah, I love it.
I mean, when I read the bio I'mlike, okay, you know sales and
marketing and negotiating.
And I tell people, nothinghappens in the world without a
sale somewhere.
There's always negotiationshappening everywhere.
So I'm sure we'll probably tapon that and we'll touch a little
bit on what does that look likeFor this particular podcast and
we'll go all over.
It's unpacked, you know.
So.
When you think about leadershipand the space that you've been
(03:02):
in, you know you gave me abackground.
You'll travel to get to whereyou are and we'll have a great
conversations in the green room.
When you think about where youare now, how does leadership
play a role in negotiations orsales?
What does it?
Speaker 3 (03:12):
show up.
So I mean leadership really.
I think more than anything is alot of things, but one of the
key ones for me is aboutcommunication skills.
Right, a really good leader istypically in the movies as
someone who communicates verycharismatically, and that might
have something to do with it,but I think it's a person who
asks questions, is curious andasks really questions that
(03:32):
they're going to be listening to, absorbing, digesting,
analyzing and then making gooddecisions based on, and so
there's a lot of overlap betweengood negotiators and good
leaders.
So I think it shows up ineverything, in the sense that
you know not to be too extreme,but we're always negotiating,
right, we're negotiating forsomeone to buy into an idea,
we're negotiating to convincesomeone to come and recruit them
(03:53):
to our company for more budget,and so it's not just a
salesperson selling a new clientand negotiating to sell a deal,
but really we're alwaysnegotiating.
But to me, leadership is a lotof crossover.
It's really, at its core, goodcommunication skills.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Yeah, I agree 100%, and I'm glad you're tapping into
that.
There is this intersection ofthis, something that you use
across the board in allindustries.
And when you think of thenegotiating, I love the idea of
negotiating, that we're alwaysnegotiating.
What do leaders bring?
When you say we're alwaysnegotiating, which I agree with,
what have you seen that workedeffectively?
When someone is really hesitantto want to understand it, how
(04:28):
do you help them begin tounderstand that it is always
negotiating?
So, whether it's a car, whetherit's getting married, or
whether it's you serving on theboard, or whether it's you
making a decision aboutsomething, negotiation is always
in that conversation, even aswe do the work to get you on the
podcast, there's always hey,what time?
What does it mean to me?
How much time is it going totake?
There's always this negotiating.
How do you help leaders getbetter at negotiating?
Speaker 3 (04:49):
So it's a great question.
So it's there because I thinkthe first piece is understanding
that we're always negotiatingand that almost some of this
that we're always selling right,we're selling our ideas and so
but can be very impactful.
So just the sidebar for asecond.
We work with a lot ofprofessional service companies,
things like the PWCs and GrantThorntons and Deloittes of the
world, and so what's interestingis when we do training if we
(05:11):
were to call it sales training,they would be turned off
immediately.
But on negotiation trainingeven though in some cases it's
about landing new clients,expanding the work you do with
them and, yes, negotiatingbetter deals but the work you do
with them and, yes, negotiatingbetter deals but in many
extents a very fine line therebetween selling and negotiating
and there's just a lot morecomfortable negotiating because
as professionals they don't feellike they're selling your
business.
For them it feels a little bitkind of maybe either
(05:34):
disingenuous or it changes theway they perceive themselves if
they're selling and salespeoplerather than potentially
negotiating and managing thoseaccounts.
So it is interesting even theway it's kind of communicated to
folks.
I guess it starts there, butreally to the heart of your
question, the way we helpleaders and just about everyone
negotiate is.
We take some of the fear out byreally doing two things.
One is giving them a process.
(05:55):
It's something that'srepeatable, they can go to and
they can refer to.
And then two kind of comes from.
That is giving them confidence,right?
So when you give themconfidence, there's not as much
fear entering a negotiation andwhether it's you're buying a car
, like you said, or negotiatingon a board or whatever it may be
and so if you do those twothings, you typically get a
little bit more comfortable andthen, in turn, your performance
(06:17):
improves.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Can you dive a little deeper too?
Because selling doesn't feelattractive all the time.
And I tell people nobody reallywants to be sold, but they like
to buy everything.
People hate to be sold.
Even if you're on a car lot,you don't want people trying to
sell you a car, even thoughyou're there to buy a car.
So the tactic of it feelingpushy and aggressive nobody
really likes this idea.
At least that's the feeling Iget across society.
(06:39):
Nobody likes to be sold, but welove to buy stuff.
What's the distinction when itcomes to language?
Because you went there.
How do you help leadersunderstand?
Especially, we deal with a lotof entrepreneurs.
We deal with leaders that arerunning organizations.
How do you help them becomemore effective without feeling
pushy or aggressive in the salesprocess?
Speaker 3 (06:54):
That reminds me of an example that my partner, jeff,
always kind of brings up whenhe's talking about exactly that
point.
And you think of the last timeyou went to a clothing store,
right, yeah, an example thatanyone could relate to.
You walk into a clothing storeand let's say you're looking for
a pair of pants, you're walking, you're looking around, you're
trying to find, and the personwill come to you and say may I
help you?
And what does just the whateverit was say no, I'm just looking
(07:15):
.
Which is funny, because reallywhat that interaction should be
is may I help you?
Yes, I'm looking for this pairof pants in this color and this
size.
They help you.
And so really, no, no, I don'twant to tell you, because I
don't want to be sold to right?
Because if I told you, thenyou'd help me find what I'm
looking for and then you'd helpme get out of here faster and be
more efficient.
Yet we even just that kind ofthe feel of it.
(07:36):
I'd rather find a pair of pantsfor myself rather than have you
sign it for me, because I don'twant to feel pressured to buy
it, even though that's why Icame in the first place.
There definitely is adistinction, and I think one of
the things that really separatesbeing sold to buying is really
kind of the perception of wherethe leverage is, if you will and
it's a weird word to say but,for example, the best
salespeople we know that work atthe best sales organizations.
(07:58):
When we train them, what we seeis they really believe in the
product.
And so what's happening is theysee that if I make this sale, I
am genuinely helping thisperson.
Either this business willflourish or I'm going to add
tremendous amount of value.
So it doesn't feel like there'sthis power imbalance.
And so even in the way theconversations are had, in the
whole interaction, it feels onecertain way right, where both
(08:19):
sides are benefiting One side'spaying for something, the other
side's getting a service or aproduct I benefiting, one side's
paying for something, the otherside's getting a service or a
product.
I think where it really feelslike you're being sold to is
where maybe there is animbalance, right, if you go to a
big box or you're thinking ofbuying a TV and so now you're
getting pressured into it, or acar and so you're going through
oh, let me talk to my manager,see what I can do, and all these
kind of tactics that arehappening.
And so I think it's whether, ifboth sides believe there's
(08:42):
value to the transaction forboth sides one's paying, one's
receiving value versus whetherit's not totally certain that's
the case.
I think that's one of thethings that separates those two
situations.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Can you tell the difference when you're
negotiating, where they got toget this done or?
Speaker 3 (08:55):
else?
Oh, absolutely.
And two things that really kindof start from that point you
just made are number one there'sa lot of studies and you got
probably lots of folks listeninghere today can experience this
If you go to a company that areCarMax and you buy a car.
Where you go to an organizationwhere there's no commission, no
negotiation, where you go to adealership to buy and, say, a
used car and there isn't acommission for the salesperson,
(09:17):
Walk away and felt like youdon't feel the difference right,
and even if it just kind ofhappens, naturally they may not
be kind of pushy, but there is adifference because their lives
are impacted by the commissionand in turn they behave
differently.
And so then I would say thepoint you just made about how
different it feels.
(09:38):
I think the same thing appliesto leadership, Right, and so
people can understand and seethe difference very quickly when
a leader is truly invested intheir folks and is serving them
and is listening to them, ismaking decisions based on what
would be best for theorganization, including them, or
just making the best decisionsbased on their own best interest
.
And so I think that piece thatyou just said about selling and
negotiating very, very muchapplies to leadership as well.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Absolutely, and I've been exposed to it and I've even
made the mistake sometimes.
Like you know, if it's close toyour appraisal time or you're
looking for your bonus, you'llfind yourself leading people
based on what you need, andpeople can feel that and it
doesn't feel good, you know.
So if you're in a leadershiprole and you're listening,
you're watching that, there's anice correlation between the two
.
You don't want to become thesales leader.
Get what I want, get mypromotion, get the recognition
(10:22):
yeah, look at my name on theboard.
You want to really be ofservice to your people.
So if you listen to this,there's an art of negotiating to
get things done through peoplewithout them feeling like
they're used or taken advantageof, just so you can feel good
about yourself.
So I love that you bring thatup.
What are some of the challengeswhen it comes to communication?
You know, when it deals withnegotiating or deals with me as
a leader, what are some of thechallenges?
(10:43):
There's a deadline on me, thereare some expectations on me.
I got to get stuff done.
How do I balance that evillywithout becoming too aggressive?
Speaker 3 (10:51):
Certainly, I think we could talk about a couple and
one thing before we go there Idid want to mention I was struck
with what you said.
Is it kind of the intent?
I think?
If you folks listen, I thinkthe biggest difference is
intention, right?
So if I'm only thinking aboutmy business and Drisper is yours
, and my intent is that, I thinkthat's what really people feel,
and so for leaders, I thinkthat's the biggest point.
As far as the challenges,there's quite a few, but I think
(11:13):
one of the biggest challengesfor both leadership and
negotiation that people face isemotion.
So you hear people say don'tget emotional, and that's just
simply not possible.
Right, we're human, we're goingto get emotional.
So if you think of a veryimportant decision you're going
to make as a leader, or youthink about you're negotiating a
new job, right, an interview,you've been offered a job and
you're negotiating that.
So in those types of scenarioswhere it's really important to
(11:33):
you, it is going to be emotionalbecause that's such an impact
on your life, and so what you'redoing is not avoiding the
emotion but managing it, andreally what that means is you
want to be thoughtful.
For example, we tell folks as avery easy tip and you could do
this for leadership or fornegotiations, which is, before
you get into the situation,write down what's really
important to you, and evenalmost kind of a rough script.
(11:54):
What are you going to say?
So, in the example ofnegotiating a salary, it might
be hey, what happens if theycome in very high?
Or you don't want to jumpacross the table or shake your
hand.
What happens if they comereally low absolutely ridiculous
and walk out.
Why?
Because then you've potentiallyruined that opportunity when
maybe you could have negotiateda better solution.
It's same with leadership.
(12:14):
You've got a very big decisionyou want to make, and so what
you're doing, the reason youwrite it down is two things.
One, it really gives you timeto think about it, digest it,
and it may have improved betweenwhen you wrote it and when you
do it.
But the second is it gives youthe ability to kind of take a
step back.
Right, when you do that, whenyou write something down and you
come back to it later, yourealize if you take a step back,
you know someone gives you alow ball off from a salary or,
(12:35):
like I said, a big leadershipsituation you're involved in
doesn't go the way the firstreaction you expected.
It makes you more likely to beable to take a pause and just
realize look, this is a part ofthe situation, and negotiation
is a process.
These long, complicatedsituations are a process.
They're not an event, right,they don't occur over one
situation, one time, and so thatis one challenge that we
(12:55):
typically see often and one veryeasy solution that can help you
do that.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
Thank you for bringing that up as I looked at
your bio.
How do you people really beable to talk about money and is
the rule still don't say itfirst.
Speaker 3 (13:07):
So I think three things to think about there.
Number one we talked about italready.
It's kind of prepared scriptright.
So if you've thought about thenumber and then, or whatever it
is, you're going to say you'vedigested it, you slept on it,
and then you say the next day ora couple of days later, it's
going to sound a heck of a lotmore confident, you're going to
feel more confident.
It's a very different feel.
So it's kind of prepared script.
Number two is you have to relyon precedents.
(13:29):
So whenever you're going to saysomething and more poorly for
this case, even if you're notjust negotiating salary, you
could be negotiating M&A deal, avery large transaction of any
kind Whenever you're negotiating, you want to be able to refer
to precedents and really that's.
You know what's happened,that's similar before, and so in
sports we do some work there.
That would be another freeagent that signed a similar deal
, right.
And when you're buying a house,the same thing occurs, right,
(13:51):
is one of that same house.
What do the neighbor's housesell for?
So these are kind of thesecomparables.
These precedents are reallyreally important because they
help you understand what thevalue is and they also, in many
cases, help you potentiallypersuade the other side.
And you've offered and say thisis what I'm willing to pay.
It may not be as powerful as ifyou compare it to this I'm
willing to pay because and youprovide two or three precedents
(14:12):
that explain why that is youroffer.
And so I think those are tworeally important ones to think
about, and I think I was goingto do the third, but really the
focus should be on those tworight, having those precedents
that you can refer to thejustification.
There's lots of studies thatdescribe that it's actually a
lot more persuasive because thebrain no matter even if the kind
of explanation isn't thatpowerful it actually kind of
(14:33):
heuristically in the brain takesa shortcut to say oh okay, he
or she has a good reason tothink that, and so I'm just
going to assume that's correct.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
You get a deal that's higher than you anticipated,
how do you hold yourself backfrom it?
It looked like you just won thelottery.
Basically, you want to jumpacross and shake their hand and
be overexcited because you'relike man, there are like 20,000
of them all the way in thatcoffee company.
You really want to jump acrossthe desk.
How do you reserve that?
Speaker 3 (14:55):
I love the question because folks you typically
don't prepare for that, theydon't think about it, right,
they only expect, okay, whathappens if it becomes really low
, and you're really focusing onthat.
So I did realize that I didn'tfully answer the one bit of your
question, though of you knowthe first person who puts the
number do they lose?
And so to that, the kind of theshort answer there is putting a
number out there.
If you have the precedence inplace, which is why those are
(15:16):
super important then you want toaim as high as you can
supporting the precedence.
But the reason that there's anadvantage to not going first,
right, to allowing the otherside to go first, is exactly
this piece that we're talkingabout, which is they may
surprise you, right?
And so let's say you're an M&Adeal, you're buying another
company and you're expecting thedeal to close at $3 million,
that you would be paying $3million for that company.
(15:37):
Well, the reality is they mayactually ask for 2.75.
Now, it may be unlikely, but itis possible.
It's not zero, and so if you gofirst and you offer some other
number that's higher or lower,you've actually removed the
possibility that they mayactually be willing to sell for
less than you had offered, sothat's really the value.
There's information in an offerand that's why it's so
important.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
Yeah, it's a phenomenal way, I mean because
it's real time and it'sunpacking it For everyone that's
listening.
We have real conversations, wefigure it out as we go through,
so we unpack, you know.
So you get a real answers fromAndreas.
You just don't know andoftentimes it's not just a
cookie-cutter one answer for allscenarios.
So I'm glad that you came backand said it depends, ron.
Sometimes it's best not to gofirst, sometimes it is.
It just depends if you've doneyour work to understand what all
(16:20):
has happened.
What does the data show.
So I think it's important, ifyou listen to us, do the
homework, make sure you havesome precedence of what's
actually happening that occurredin the past that you can use as
backdrop information.
Speaker 3 (16:31):
The second question, then, is that we almost got to
is okay.
So then you get let's say, youdo get pleasantly surprised,
right, and so you get a pleasantsurprise.
How do you do it?
And so the preparations were soimportant and that's the
emotion piece.
So you have not thought about,you're not prepared.
So someone gives you a number.
It's better than you expected.
What's going to happen is youmay potentially react in a way
oh that's great, thank you verymuch, even if you're trying to
(16:51):
kind of hold yourself back, andthe thing that's hardest to
control is actually kind of yourbody language, right, so your
facial expressions, so ifthey're very, very kind of keen
listeners and attention is beingpaid, what's going to happen is
that will communicate a lot,and so this is where it's almost
impossible.
If you're very pleasantlysurprised, that's made, it's
important to you, like a largeM&A deal or a salary negotiation
(17:13):
, what's going to happen is youreally need to have thought
about it beforehand, almost madea decision tree.
Okay, if the number's over this, if it's between this and this
and it's less than this, becauseyou've thought about it, your
brain will react less quickly,and so you actually can be much
more likely to be kind of a goodpoker player if you will a
little bit more stoic and thennot respond, right, so it allows
you.
Oh, okay, yeah, because youactually your brain's going to
(17:34):
automatically go, oh, it'sbetween this number and this
number.
And so, for example, one thingthat we teach folks is a very
kind of neutral response, almostyou know, no matter what, in
that middle spectrum where, ifthey give you an offer, your
offer it's way better than youexpected.
That's interesting, it givesyou a lot to think about, and
then you can decide can you tellme a little bit more about that
offer, right?
So if it's a complicated offerthat has multiple negotiables,
(17:56):
they've given you one number.
You may want to find out therest, right, in an M&A deal, and
you find out it's a $3 milliondeal.
Well, what about?
You know what timeframe do theywant to close?
You're buying a house, same,what would be the close date?
And are there conditions to buyor sell the house?
Those things right.
And so even that responsereally signals nothing as little
as thank you for the offer.
You know, it gives me a lot tothink about.
(18:16):
Can you tell me a little bitmore about the rest of the
conditions, and so not simple tothe other side.
It's a very good offer, a verybad offer, and so that would be
an example of if you thoughtabout it in advance and how it's
executed differently, it willgive a very different feel to
the other side.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
Very rarely we talk the art of negotiating.
You know I have a salesbackground and learned a little
bit about it, but not to thedepth that you do.
I look at Shark Tank and watchhow people respond when the
office is on the table.
So that's my first thing, asyou were speaking like man, I
watched a lot of Shark Tank,like can they keep their
composure, do they hold out andhow do they get to that place of
being comfortable?
And like, hey, that'sinteresting.
You know you start asking morequestions versus yes, let's go
(18:51):
cool without asking questionsbecause there are other things
that may be predicated on thatoffer.
What other tips do you give forpeople that are in the space of
negotiating?
I'm a small business owner andwhen we go put contracts,
proposals in front of ourclients, you know, or before we
even get there, oftentimes it'slike they haven't thought of
what this service is and how tobuy from me.
They don't really know thenumbers to the degree that I
would like for them to know thenumbers, and I've walked into
(19:13):
those situations.
So I almost have to educatethem without insulting them or
making them think I'movercharging.
So I get stuck in.
Hey, if it's too low in my head, they may not think it's worth
what you know.
Like that was low, which kindof bothers me sometimes, like if
it's too low they don't thinkyour service is good and if it's
too high they think you'reoverpriced.
Sometimes that's a dance in myhead.
Maybe some other people as well.
(19:34):
How do you manage that?
Like you're not coming in toolow where it doesn't seem like
it's worth the value, or you'recoming in too high where you're
overcharging and you're askingfor too much.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
So I think one in the conversations you get to the
price, the easier it is, theless likely that's going to
happen, because the more timeyou've had a chance to kind of
build value, so you almost thinkabout it as 10% into the
process.
You get a price then based onvery little.
You're going to say, oh, it'stoo much or too little, but
there's kind of less trackrecord there.
If 50% of the way in theprocess, then you get the price
(20:07):
and there's enough track recordsfor the value that the services
could provide, and so there'sless likely right that the price
is one data point of 20 at thatpoint rather than one of one if
it's earlier on in the process.
And so generally really ourbiggest advice there is around
probing right, asking a lot ofgreat questions, and we talk
about how in negotiations,asking great questions is both
the way to find out informationwhich is critically critical.
(20:28):
So I think that's one of thethings that we're trying to do
and I think that's one of thethings that we're trying to do
and I think that's one of thethings that we're trying to do
and I think that's one of thethings that we're trying to do
and I think that's one of thethings that we're trying to do.
And I think that's one of thethings that we're trying to do
and I think that's one of thethingsant, if you will right,
you're willing to trust eachother and potentially do some
(20:50):
things that maybe aren't in theagreement or, you know, cut each
other some slack or all thethings that happen when
negotiation, because there's arelationship in place, is really
really critical.
And so you know certainly youunderstand this from your sales
experience that a really goodsalesperson, a good negotiator
and a good leader can developrelationship quickly and connect
with the other side, and a bigpart of that is asking great
questions, right, and so that'sone of the fundamental drivers
(21:14):
in doing it, because, face it,who doesn't like someone who
spends time asking questions andgenuinely cares about your
answers, right?
That's kind of even thisconversation.
That's what it is.
It's a fireside chat where bothof us are totally invested.
It changes kind of the qualityof the conversation.
Yeah, I love it is kind of thequality of the conversation.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
Yeah, I love it and thank you for taking us to the
relationship, because I tellpeople all the time, social
capital is better sometimes thanthe degree that's hanging
around that wall.
Social capital matters.
How do you get to the place ofso?
Numbers don't become an issue.
I say, if you do social capitalwell, numbers don't become as
powerful as you may think ordistractor as much as they could
be, because if you don't builda social capital, it can cause
(21:49):
you to get derailed really,really quick.
How do you help people buildsocial capital or the
relationship, if you will?
Speaker 3 (21:54):
So one of the things we talk about is, if you think
of a relationship, one of thebig goals of it and the outcomes
of it, from a correlationperspective, is trust.
You're building trust andcredibility.
Really, that just means thatyou care about the other side
and what they have to say andwhat you may discuss, and so I
think we have an equation thatwe talk about.
It's got a few variables, butthe ones that really stick out
to me are, number one, thereally around the intention.
(22:14):
So do you have the bestself-interest?
You know, your ownself-interest or theirs in mind?
And we said earlier that youcan feel that, and so that's why
it's a big part of that, right.
So if you're a thinking aboutthe company versus also thinking
about them, right that theyfeel like you would go to bat
for them.
So if there's going to bemassive layoffs, you would go to
(22:37):
bat for them.
Or if you're going to make achange, you would buy them more
time or give them a heads up inadvance, or the things that a
good leader might do.
And so that intent and reallyis a really critical one right
Is the interest and what'simportant to them.
Number one.
Number two is reliability right, as you can rely on people more
, and so things that we talkedabout, these little things that
make a big difference.
(22:57):
So in conversations, forexample, if you know, let's say
for a second, you're anentrepreneur and you're pitching
for, let's say, a big round andyou raise funds, well, if you
give yourself a fewopportunities to be reliable, so
I will give you a call nextTuesday to you know, chat about
this.
I'll send you this informationby Thursday Next month when I
(23:19):
get my quarterlies done, I'llsend this over to you.
What you're doing is you'recreating opportunities where you
can do what you said you weregoing to do, and that really
demonstrates reliability.
That goes a long way.
So if the intention is positive, the reliability.
And then there's are youbringing value to the table,
right?
So in any one of theseunfortunately that's a reality
you cannot avoid, right, and sowe talked about it earlier that
you know, in sales it makes yougenerous.
There's really value innegotiating leadership, or you
(23:40):
have to actually know whatyou're talking about from a
leadership perspective, and sothose are all really factors
that go into it, and so ifyou're doing every one of those,
and the final last thing isconnection.
And so connection is somethingwhere it's really driven by
similarities.
Naturally, some folks are good,trained at doing that, but it's
about finding connections right.
And so, oh, we're both Steelersfans, or oh, we both love to
(24:00):
grow roses or we like to sail,or we have kids, or the
connection points.
And it's funny, you know, hewas a very, very simple really
and those connection points makeus feel like, oh, they're kind
of like me, and so very quickly,all of a sudden, you feel a
little bit more comfortable.
So if you're doing those things, you find some similarities,
you show reliability, you've gottheir best interest in heart
and there's some value there.
Typically, those relationshipswill really blossom on a
(24:22):
personal and professional level.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
Wow, I mean you dropped five things that are
super important and I'llregertstate those fourths.
How long does it take to dothose five things you mentioned?
To build trust it has to bebuilt quick Intent being
reliable, adding value andconnection.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
I think it would be kind of like climbing a ladder,
if you will, so you know, to getto the highest level, where you
really trust someone right,where it's the kind of person
that you know.
Ron, I call you before I makeany really big, important
decision in my life.
Well, it's at the top of theladder.
That'll take months, years,right, and so over a long period
of time, but certainly thatfirst step or two can be done
very quickly, right, so veryquickly.
But the one thing I would sayin all this, it's got to be
(24:58):
genuine right.
I think it's the one biggestthing it's important for you to
take away, and you mentionedearlier, and so it's gotta be
driven by Jen and Karasi, right,so connections that are made
because you really care, notbecause you're kind of going
through emotions, because youcan really feel that.
But I think that first rung upthe ladder is really easy to do
and it's just a matter of beingcurious about.
You know what does the personcare about, right, where are you
(25:20):
based, and you know what do youcare.
Do you have family?
Or you know what are yourhobbies, or tell me more about
what you do, and so you thinkabout it.
Humans have a lot more commonthat we have.
Potentially, that's differingas far as even what we believe
or feel, and so I think ifyou're thinking about making
those connections, and theintent is to make those
connections, it actually happenspretty quickly.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
Yes, yes, and I'm glad that you ran through that,
because oftentimes we think ittakes like I don't have the time
and people hear that.
What do you say to the personthat makes that statement?
Hey, you know what?
I hear you, andreas, but Idon't have the time to do this
thing.
What's your message to them?
Speaker 3 (25:53):
that you get from it If you don't have the time.
I think life is verytransactional, so forget about
the fact that you're going toimprove your performance.
From a negotiation standpoint,leadership standpoint, the
currency of those is potentiallymore important than a diploma
years of experience.
That would be equivalent ofwealth, right?
(26:15):
If you had 25 people, you couldcall on 10 people you could
call on that.
Have access to folks andimportant networks and they
would do anything for you.
That's worth a lot, right, it'snot worth as much as a really
good degree.
You're starting a great company, so I think it's really
understanding that, but ideallyhe's not doing the self-serving
way, but instead I think, like,just like, if you have a spouse
(26:36):
or a partner and you get moresatisfaction when you share
something with them, it'd be thesame way, right, that if you go
like it's very transactional,if you don't really connect with
anybody, and so you're going toget more out of it, and your
satisfaction will go up ifyou're enjoying it with other
people, right, I mean, life'stoo short not to yes, yes, in
your practice and yourexperiences between trust,
paying attention to your intentbeing reliable, making sure you
(26:57):
add value not just becausesometimes you get stuck on the
value piece like this is a goodtool.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
Well, it's an added value.
It doesn't mean it's foreveryone.
What do you see people gettingstuck the most out of those five
things?
So trust, intent being reliable, adding value and connection
what do you see people gettingstuck at the most?
Speaker 3 (27:14):
That's a good question, I think, even if it's
not maybe getting stuck, themost, definitely the easiest to
fix, in my opinion, is thereliability.
I mean everyone listening andyou, ron, do you think about
this, right?
Thinking about the last time,whether you bought something or
you called into customer serviceor you needed help with
something, like I think all thetimes they call customer service
and they say, oh, we'll callyou back or we'll help you with
this, so I'll send you an email.
(27:35):
It doesn't happen Someone'sselling you something and you
say, look, I am interested, butyou know, call me back in a
month because the timing's notright or whatever.
You think how many times theyactually do that.
It's very rare.
The reliability whether that'sthe thing that maybe folks trip
up on the most, I'm not sure,but it's unbelievably simple and
what makes it incredible is tobe a good leader, to be a good
(27:57):
negotiator, to be a goodsalesperson, to be any of the
good entrepreneur.
It's such an easy thing to face.
Just make sure that you do thethings you said you were going
to do.
Yes, you give a vocal example.
So I'm an adjunct at Hopkinshere in Baltimore.
At Johns Hopkins University, Iteach a class on sports
negotiation and every singleyear I've got, you know, between
15, 20ish students and thenkind of a small task.
(28:18):
I run in a session and everysingle year five or 10 of them
say I really need your helpgetting a job, and so keep in
touch.
And out of those 10 that reachout the day after the training
or the session's done or thecourse is done, then you know,
three of them will reach out amonth later and we'll get down
to one by the year later.
And so I've got, probably I'vetaught I think it's 10th year
(28:38):
now and I've got about three orfour students that still keep in
touch and every one of those Icontinually go to bat for
because they're reliable.
So over that period of time tome I'm willing to put my name
out for them because they'veshown me reliability, I know
what they said they were goingto do, and that's a reflection
of me when I recommend themthrough things.
But for the other 10, and it'snot a bad intention they do lean
(29:02):
to reach out versus the 10 thatreached out just the first time
and never followed up again,and the difference is massive.
And so I think if everyone'sdoing that, that's significant
compound interest fromrelationship capital.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
Oh, I love that you went there because if you listen
to the podcast, the thing thatis in your control is being
reliable.
So that's for your friends,that's for your personal
relationship, that's for yourprofessional relationships,
that's for your professionalrelationships, that's for doing
business.
A data point came out ofDeloitte I want to say, probably
about a month ago, about thatnot being the strongest suit of
what people are doing, and I usethe phrase does your audio
(29:35):
match your video?
If you say it, can I actuallysee you do it?
So, if you're listening, becomemore reliable and you'll
probably outdo 80% of yourcompetition.
It's one of the things thatchanges drastically, gives you
greater results faster.
So, if you're going to invest insomething out of the things
that Andres is sharing, bereliable.
Do what you say you're going todo all the time, not some of
(29:55):
the times, not six visits likeall the time.
It changes your results really,really fast.
So be reliable.
I love that you shared that.
Anything else that you haven'tshared with us that you think is
important for our audience,that you'd like to share before
we ask for your contactinformation and the best way to
leverage services or get incontact with you.
Speaker 3 (30:10):
I mean I love the way you just closed with somebody.
That's so practical.
I think you know it'sinteresting.
We covered a lot in our timetogether.
But the reliability piece, Ilove it because it's kind of
like that phrase that people saynow that you know comments
isn't so common and I think youknow reliability.
It seems pretty simple to dowhat you say you're going to do,
but very few people do it andyou stand out by doing it, and
so I think it's the simplethings, it's the little things
(30:31):
that make a big difference andwhen I was younger and earlier
on in my writing, reallyunderstand and appreciate that
as much as time goes on,everyone can kind of talk the
talk with very few walks.
You walk the walk and both in aconsistent way, and so I love
that piece of advice.
It's extremely practical andextremely impactful.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
Yes, I love it.
Thank you for sharing.
You dropped it.
I figured out how do we processit, but it is the thing that
you can do that really separatesyou really really fast.
So, Andres, thank you for yourtime today, For the audience and
the people that are listening.
You know, first of all, ifthere's something that you could
offer, so what would be thereasons why they would call you?
How can you help those of them?
Let's say, hey, we actuallyneed your service.
What are the top three things,or two, whatever the number is
(31:09):
for you that says hey, here'swhy you probably want to reach
out to us If you everencountered this, this or this.
Speaker 3 (31:14):
I love that question because people typically do come
to us when there's a challenge,right.
They just need help when thingsare going really well.
So for us it's typically from atraining side.
It's there's a challenge aroundnegotiations, your margins are
decreasing, there's a newcompetitor in play, your
procurement organization islooking to be upskilled, right,
and so I think it's very clearlysoft skills right, negotiation
(31:35):
and influencing and just aboutevery job function.
So I think if those skills needto be improved and on the
consulting side is if you needadvice and assistance with a
large negotiation coming up, andso we take it from M&A, player
contract negotiations andeverything in between.
So those are the kind of themost common reasons people reach
out to us Awesome, awesome.
What's the best way to reachout to you?
So the easiest really is kindof the one-stop shop.
(31:55):
For us is the website.
So wwwshapironegotiationscom.
I think it's a great place thatyou can find a little bit more
about us, our history, we workwith, what we do and also reach
out there.
We got contact forms everywhere.
It makes it easy to reach outand then it gets routed to the
appropriate person.
But that's the best place tostart.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
I would say yes yes, and I'll tell you it works.
I went to the website and didthe research, so anything that
you want you know.
Andreas, appreciate so much forjoining us and sharing.
You're the first I've had ontalking about the art of
negotiating, how to reallyleverage that, and you dropped
(32:32):
some really, really greatnuggets.
So remember the trust, be atthe intention of how you're
having these conversations.
Be reliable which is the onethat you're serving, versus like
what's in it for you all thetime and people don't want to
hear what's in it for you andmake sure you have a strong
connection.
Some of us drop connection andstill try to get stuff done.
The connection matters, so makesure you continue to connect
(32:53):
with the people that you'retrying to do business with.
Again, this is Ron HarveyUnpacked with Ron Harvey podcast
.
Thank y'all for joining us.
It's always a a pleasure tohave phenomenal guests come on
and give you something thatmakes a difference.
You can use everything Andrea'stalked about in your
professional personalrelationships across the board,
whether you're selling somethingor you're just trying to have
healthy relationships.
So thank y'all for joining us.
(33:13):
Again, andrea and I will saygoodbye to each one of you and
hopefully you tell someone elseabout the podcast and if you're
interested in joining or youwant to be a guest, just reach
out to our team and they willtake care of it and get you.
Want to be a guest?
Just reach out to our team andthey will take care of it and
get you, you know reach out toyou and get it connected for us.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
So thank you all again for joining us.
Well, we hope you enjoyed thisedition of Unpacked Podcast with
leadership consultant RonHarvey.
Remember to join us everyMonday as Ron unpacks sound
advice, providing real answersfor real leadership challenges.
Until next time, remember toadd value and make a difference
where you are, for the peopleyou serve, because people always
(33:51):
matter.
Welcome to Unpacked Podcast with your host
leadership consultant, RonHarvey of Global Core Strategies
and Consulting.
Ron's delighted to have youjoin us as he unpacks and shares
his leadership experience,designed to help you in your
leadership journey.
Ron believes that leadership isthe fundamental driver towards
making a difference.
(00:21):
So now to find out more of whatit means to unpack leadership,
here's your host, Ron Harvey.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Good morning.
This is Ron Harvey, the VicePresident and the Chief
Operating Officer for GlobalCore Strategies, and we're a
leadership development firmbased out of Columbia, South
Carolina.
Our primary role in theorganization is to help leaders
be better connected to theirworkforce so they can take care
of them while at the same time,being successful, profitable and
productive.
So we want leaders to be betterconnected to the organizations
and the people that are countingon them, that they're
(00:49):
responsible for.
So we're based out of Columbus,South Carolina, but what I
always do is we do a podcast andit's called Unpacked with Ron
Harvey, and for those who havejoined us before, thank you.
And those that have joined usfor the first time, welcome to
the show.
I bring guests from around theworld on Unpacked with Ron
Harvey.
The beauty of this is there areno questions in advance.
We really have an on-spot,real-time, almost TV show,
(01:10):
Fireside Chat and we talk aboutleadership, challenges and
issues of success.
We hope we give you somethingthat makes you more effective at
leading your organization,whether it's big, whether it's
C-suite, whether it'sentrepreneur, whatever that
thing is on a non-profit.
We hope we answer questions.
So today I'm super excited tohave someone joining us.
You know, we were scheduled fora week ago and we couldn't get
that because of some lifehappens and so I couldn't sit
(01:32):
down with him last week.
But we're here this week.
He was very flexible.
He said Ron, tell me when, tellme where I'll be there.
So we're on this week and we'regoing to record with Andreas
and he'll do his introductionand then we'll dive into our
questions.
So, Andreas, thank you forbeing flexible and thank you for
being with us this morning.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
Thanks for having me, Ronnie.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Excited to chat today .
Yes, yes, is there anythingyou'd like to share?
You know I don't do a longintro because I always say
nobody introduces you betterthan you.
Can you tell them a little bitabout who you are, what you want
them to know, the business thatyou're in?
I have your bio, but I haveyour bio.
But I always afford theopportunity to my guests to
share what they want to sharewith our audience.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
Sure, just for a little bit of context.
So I run the ShapiroNegotiations Institute here,
based in Baltimore, maryland,and we are a global negotiation
and influence trainingconsulting firm.
So we basically work withtypically larger kind of fortune
5,000 types, but companies ofall sizes, and what we do is we
train them how to negotiatewhether it's sales, procurement
leaders, project managers,program managers, engineers, any
(02:28):
type of function across justabout every industry, and we do
it globally.
So we're training sevenlanguages and we've been around
for 29 years now about to be 30.
And so that's a little bitabout kind of who we are and
what context that we bring tothat greenspan.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Yeah, I love it.
I mean, when I read the bio I'mlike, okay, you know sales and
marketing and negotiating.
And I tell people, nothinghappens in the world without a
sale somewhere.
There's always negotiationshappening everywhere.
So I'm sure we'll probably tapon that and we'll touch a little
bit on what does that look likeFor this particular podcast and
we'll go all over.
It's unpacked, you know.
So.
When you think about leadershipand the space that you've been
(03:02):
in, you know you gave me abackground.
You'll travel to get to whereyou are and we'll have a great
conversations in the green room.
When you think about where youare now, how does leadership
play a role in negotiations orsales?
What does it?
Speaker 3 (03:12):
show up.
So I mean leadership really.
I think more than anything is alot of things, but one of the
key ones for me is aboutcommunication skills.
Right, a really good leader istypically in the movies as
someone who communicates verycharismatically, and that might
have something to do with it,but I think it's a person who
asks questions, is curious andasks really questions that
(03:32):
they're going to be listening to, absorbing, digesting,
analyzing and then making gooddecisions based on, and so
there's a lot of overlap betweengood negotiators and good
leaders.
So I think it shows up ineverything, in the sense that
you know not to be too extreme,but we're always negotiating,
right, we're negotiating forsomeone to buy into an idea,
we're negotiating to convincesomeone to come and recruit them
(03:53):
to our company for more budget,and so it's not just a
salesperson selling a new clientand negotiating to sell a deal,
but really we're alwaysnegotiating.
But to me, leadership is a lotof crossover.
It's really, at its core, goodcommunication skills.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Yeah, I agree 100%, and I'm glad you're tapping into
that.
There is this intersection ofthis, something that you use
across the board in allindustries.
And when you think of thenegotiating, I love the idea of
negotiating, that we're alwaysnegotiating.
What do leaders bring?
When you say we're alwaysnegotiating, which I agree with,
what have you seen that workedeffectively?
When someone is really hesitantto want to understand it, how
(04:28):
do you help them begin tounderstand that it is always
negotiating?
So, whether it's a car, whetherit's getting married, or
whether it's you serving on theboard, or whether it's you
making a decision aboutsomething, negotiation is always
in that conversation, even aswe do the work to get you on the
podcast, there's always hey,what time?
What does it mean to me?
How much time is it going totake?
There's always this negotiating.
How do you help leaders getbetter at negotiating?
Speaker 3 (04:49):
So it's a great question.
So it's there because I thinkthe first piece is understanding
that we're always negotiatingand that almost some of this
that we're always selling right,we're selling our ideas and so
but can be very impactful.
So just the sidebar for asecond.
We work with a lot ofprofessional service companies,
things like the PWCs and GrantThorntons and Deloittes of the
world, and so what's interestingis when we do training if we
(05:11):
were to call it sales training,they would be turned off
immediately.
But on negotiation trainingeven though in some cases it's
about landing new clients,expanding the work you do with
them and, yes, negotiatingbetter deals but the work you do
with them and, yes, negotiatingbetter deals but in many
extents a very fine line therebetween selling and negotiating
and there's just a lot morecomfortable negotiating because
as professionals they don't feellike they're selling your
business.
For them it feels a little bitkind of maybe either
(05:34):
disingenuous or it changes theway they perceive themselves if
they're selling and salespeoplerather than potentially
negotiating and managing thoseaccounts.
So it is interesting even theway it's kind of communicated to
folks.
I guess it starts there, butreally to the heart of your
question, the way we helpleaders and just about everyone
negotiate is.
We take some of the fear out byreally doing two things.
One is giving them a process.
(05:55):
It's something that'srepeatable, they can go to and
they can refer to.
And then two kind of comes from.
That is giving them confidence,right?
So when you give themconfidence, there's not as much
fear entering a negotiation andwhether it's you're buying a car
, like you said, or negotiatingon a board or whatever it may be
and so if you do those twothings, you typically get a
little bit more comfortable andthen, in turn, your performance
(06:17):
improves.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Can you dive a little deeper too?
Because selling doesn't feelattractive all the time.
And I tell people nobody reallywants to be sold, but they like
to buy everything.
People hate to be sold.
Even if you're on a car lot,you don't want people trying to
sell you a car, even thoughyou're there to buy a car.
So the tactic of it feelingpushy and aggressive nobody
really likes this idea.
At least that's the feeling Iget across society.
(06:39):
Nobody likes to be sold, but welove to buy stuff.
What's the distinction when itcomes to language?
Because you went there.
How do you help leadersunderstand?
Especially, we deal with a lotof entrepreneurs.
We deal with leaders that arerunning organizations.
How do you help them becomemore effective without feeling
pushy or aggressive in the salesprocess?
Speaker 3 (06:54):
That reminds me of an example that my partner, jeff,
always kind of brings up whenhe's talking about exactly that
point.
And you think of the last timeyou went to a clothing store,
right, yeah, an example thatanyone could relate to.
You walk into a clothing storeand let's say you're looking for
a pair of pants, you're walking, you're looking around, you're
trying to find, and the personwill come to you and say may I
help you?
And what does just the whateverit was say no, I'm just looking
(07:15):
.
Which is funny, because reallywhat that interaction should be
is may I help you?
Yes, I'm looking for this pairof pants in this color and this
size.
They help you.
And so really, no, no, I don'twant to tell you, because I
don't want to be sold to right?
Because if I told you, thenyou'd help me find what I'm
looking for and then you'd helpme get out of here faster and be
more efficient.
Yet we even just that kind ofthe feel of it.
(07:36):
I'd rather find a pair of pantsfor myself rather than have you
sign it for me, because I don'twant to feel pressured to buy
it, even though that's why Icame in the first place.
There definitely is adistinction, and I think one of
the things that really separatesbeing sold to buying is really
kind of the perception of wherethe leverage is, if you will and
it's a weird word to say but,for example, the best
salespeople we know that work atthe best sales organizations.
(07:58):
When we train them, what we seeis they really believe in the
product.
And so what's happening is theysee that if I make this sale, I
am genuinely helping thisperson.
Either this business willflourish or I'm going to add
tremendous amount of value.
So it doesn't feel like there'sthis power imbalance.
And so even in the way theconversations are had, in the
whole interaction, it feels onecertain way right, where both
(08:19):
sides are benefiting One side'spaying for something, the other
side's getting a service or aproduct I benefiting, one side's
paying for something, the otherside's getting a service or a
product.
I think where it really feelslike you're being sold to is
where maybe there is animbalance, right, if you go to a
big box or you're thinking ofbuying a TV and so now you're
getting pressured into it, or acar and so you're going through
oh, let me talk to my manager,see what I can do, and all these
kind of tactics that arehappening.
And so I think it's whether, ifboth sides believe there's
(08:42):
value to the transaction forboth sides one's paying, one's
receiving value versus whetherit's not totally certain that's
the case.
I think that's one of thethings that separates those two
situations.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Can you tell the difference when you're
negotiating, where they got toget this done or?
Speaker 3 (08:55):
else?
Oh, absolutely.
And two things that really kindof start from that point you
just made are number one there'sa lot of studies and you got
probably lots of folks listeninghere today can experience this
If you go to a company that areCarMax and you buy a car.
Where you go to an organizationwhere there's no commission, no
negotiation, where you go to adealership to buy and, say, a
used car and there isn't acommission for the salesperson,
(09:17):
Walk away and felt like youdon't feel the difference right,
and even if it just kind ofhappens, naturally they may not
be kind of pushy, but there is adifference because their lives
are impacted by the commissionand in turn they behave
differently.
And so then I would say thepoint you just made about how
different it feels.
(09:38):
I think the same thing appliesto leadership, Right, and so
people can understand and seethe difference very quickly when
a leader is truly invested intheir folks and is serving them
and is listening to them, ismaking decisions based on what
would be best for theorganization, including them, or
just making the best decisionsbased on their own best interest
.
And so I think that piece thatyou just said about selling and
negotiating very, very muchapplies to leadership as well.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Absolutely, and I've been exposed to it and I've even
made the mistake sometimes.
Like you know, if it's close toyour appraisal time or you're
looking for your bonus, you'llfind yourself leading people
based on what you need, andpeople can feel that and it
doesn't feel good, you know.
So if you're in a leadershiprole and you're listening,
you're watching that, there's anice correlation between the two
.
You don't want to become thesales leader.
Get what I want, get mypromotion, get the recognition
(10:22):
yeah, look at my name on theboard.
You want to really be ofservice to your people.
So if you listen to this,there's an art of negotiating to
get things done through peoplewithout them feeling like
they're used or taken advantageof, just so you can feel good
about yourself.
So I love that you bring thatup.
What are some of the challengeswhen it comes to communication?
You know, when it deals withnegotiating or deals with me as
a leader, what are some of thechallenges?
(10:43):
There's a deadline on me, thereare some expectations on me.
I got to get stuff done.
How do I balance that evillywithout becoming too aggressive?
Speaker 3 (10:51):
Certainly, I think we could talk about a couple and
one thing before we go there Idid want to mention I was struck
with what you said.
Is it kind of the intent?
I think?
If you folks listen, I thinkthe biggest difference is
intention, right?
So if I'm only thinking aboutmy business and Drisper is yours
, and my intent is that, I thinkthat's what really people feel,
and so for leaders, I thinkthat's the biggest point.
As far as the challenges,there's quite a few, but I think
(11:13):
one of the biggest challengesfor both leadership and
negotiation that people face isemotion.
So you hear people say don'tget emotional, and that's just
simply not possible.
Right, we're human, we're goingto get emotional.
So if you think of a veryimportant decision you're going
to make as a leader, or youthink about you're negotiating a
new job, right, an interview,you've been offered a job and
you're negotiating that.
So in those types of scenarioswhere it's really important to
(11:33):
you, it is going to be emotionalbecause that's such an impact
on your life, and so what you'redoing is not avoiding the
emotion but managing it, andreally what that means is you
want to be thoughtful.
For example, we tell folks as avery easy tip and you could do
this for leadership or fornegotiations, which is, before
you get into the situation,write down what's really
important to you, and evenalmost kind of a rough script.
(11:54):
What are you going to say?
So, in the example ofnegotiating a salary, it might
be hey, what happens if theycome in very high?
Or you don't want to jumpacross the table or shake your
hand.
What happens if they comereally low absolutely ridiculous
and walk out.
Why?
Because then you've potentiallyruined that opportunity when
maybe you could have negotiateda better solution.
It's same with leadership.
(12:14):
You've got a very big decisionyou want to make, and so what
you're doing, the reason youwrite it down is two things.
One, it really gives you timeto think about it, digest it,
and it may have improved betweenwhen you wrote it and when you
do it.
But the second is it gives youthe ability to kind of take a
step back.
Right, when you do that, whenyou write something down and you
come back to it later, yourealize if you take a step back,
you know someone gives you alow ball off from a salary or,
(12:35):
like I said, a big leadershipsituation you're involved in
doesn't go the way the firstreaction you expected.
It makes you more likely to beable to take a pause and just
realize look, this is a part ofthe situation, and negotiation
is a process.
These long, complicatedsituations are a process.
They're not an event, right,they don't occur over one
situation, one time, and so thatis one challenge that we
(12:55):
typically see often and one veryeasy solution that can help you
do that.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
Thank you for bringing that up as I looked at
your bio.
How do you people really beable to talk about money and is
the rule still don't say itfirst.
Speaker 3 (13:07):
So I think three things to think about there.
Number one we talked about italready.
It's kind of prepared scriptright.
So if you've thought about thenumber and then, or whatever it
is, you're going to say you'vedigested it, you slept on it,
and then you say the next day ora couple of days later, it's
going to sound a heck of a lotmore confident, you're going to
feel more confident.
It's a very different feel.
So it's kind of prepared script.
Number two is you have to relyon precedents.
(13:29):
So whenever you're going to saysomething and more poorly for
this case, even if you're notjust negotiating salary, you
could be negotiating M&A deal, avery large transaction of any
kind Whenever you're negotiating, you want to be able to refer
to precedents and really that's.
You know what's happened,that's similar before, and so in
sports we do some work there.
That would be another freeagent that signed a similar deal
, right.
And when you're buying a house,the same thing occurs, right,
(13:51):
is one of that same house.
What do the neighbor's housesell for?
So these are kind of thesecomparables.
These precedents are reallyreally important because they
help you understand what thevalue is and they also, in many
cases, help you potentiallypersuade the other side.
And you've offered and say thisis what I'm willing to pay.
It may not be as powerful as ifyou compare it to this I'm
willing to pay because and youprovide two or three precedents
(14:12):
that explain why that is youroffer.
And so I think those are tworeally important ones to think
about, and I think I was goingto do the third, but really the
focus should be on those tworight, having those precedents
that you can refer to thejustification.
There's lots of studies thatdescribe that it's actually a
lot more persuasive because thebrain no matter even if the kind
of explanation isn't thatpowerful it actually kind of
(14:33):
heuristically in the brain takesa shortcut to say oh okay, he
or she has a good reason tothink that, and so I'm just
going to assume that's correct.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
You get a deal that's higher than you anticipated,
how do you hold yourself backfrom it?
It looked like you just won thelottery.
Basically, you want to jumpacross and shake their hand and
be overexcited because you'relike man, there are like 20,000
of them all the way in thatcoffee company.
You really want to jump acrossthe desk.
How do you reserve that?
Speaker 3 (14:55):
I love the question because folks you typically
don't prepare for that, theydon't think about it, right,
they only expect, okay, whathappens if it becomes really low
, and you're really focusing onthat.
So I did realize that I didn'tfully answer the one bit of your
question, though of you knowthe first person who puts the
number do they lose?
And so to that, the kind of theshort answer there is putting a
number out there.
If you have the precedence inplace, which is why those are
(15:16):
super important then you want toaim as high as you can
supporting the precedence.
But the reason that there's anadvantage to not going first,
right, to allowing the otherside to go first, is exactly
this piece that we're talkingabout, which is they may
surprise you, right?
And so let's say you're an M&Adeal, you're buying another
company and you're expecting thedeal to close at $3 million,
that you would be paying $3million for that company.
(15:37):
Well, the reality is they mayactually ask for 2.75.
Now, it may be unlikely, but itis possible.
It's not zero, and so if you gofirst and you offer some other
number that's higher or lower,you've actually removed the
possibility that they mayactually be willing to sell for
less than you had offered, sothat's really the value.
There's information in an offerand that's why it's so
important.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
Yeah, it's a phenomenal way, I mean because
it's real time and it'sunpacking it For everyone that's
listening.
We have real conversations, wefigure it out as we go through,
so we unpack, you know.
So you get a real answers fromAndreas.
You just don't know andoftentimes it's not just a
cookie-cutter one answer for allscenarios.
So I'm glad that you came backand said it depends, ron.
Sometimes it's best not to gofirst, sometimes it is.
It just depends if you've doneyour work to understand what all
(16:20):
has happened.
What does the data show.
So I think it's important, ifyou listen to us, do the
homework, make sure you havesome precedence of what's
actually happening that occurredin the past that you can use as
backdrop information.
Speaker 3 (16:31):
The second question, then, is that we almost got to
is okay.
So then you get let's say, youdo get pleasantly surprised,
right, and so you get a pleasantsurprise.
How do you do it?
And so the preparations were soimportant and that's the
emotion piece.
So you have not thought about,you're not prepared.
So someone gives you a number.
It's better than you expected.
What's going to happen is youmay potentially react in a way
oh that's great, thank you verymuch, even if you're trying to
(16:51):
kind of hold yourself back, andthe thing that's hardest to
control is actually kind of yourbody language, right, so your
facial expressions, so ifthey're very, very kind of keen
listeners and attention is beingpaid, what's going to happen is
that will communicate a lot,and so this is where it's almost
impossible.
If you're very pleasantlysurprised, that's made, it's
important to you, like a largeM&A deal or a salary negotiation
(17:13):
, what's going to happen is youreally need to have thought
about it beforehand, almost madea decision tree.
Okay, if the number's over this, if it's between this and this
and it's less than this, becauseyou've thought about it, your
brain will react less quickly,and so you actually can be much
more likely to be kind of a goodpoker player if you will a
little bit more stoic and thennot respond, right, so it allows
you.
Oh, okay, yeah, because youactually your brain's going to
(17:34):
automatically go, oh, it'sbetween this number and this
number.
And so, for example, one thingthat we teach folks is a very
kind of neutral response, almostyou know, no matter what, in
that middle spectrum where, ifthey give you an offer, your
offer it's way better than youexpected.
That's interesting, it givesyou a lot to think about, and
then you can decide can you tellme a little bit more about that
offer, right?
So if it's a complicated offerthat has multiple negotiables,
(17:56):
they've given you one number.
You may want to find out therest, right, in an M&A deal, and
you find out it's a $3 milliondeal.
Well, what about?
You know what timeframe do theywant to close?
You're buying a house, same,what would be the close date?
And are there conditions to buyor sell the house?
Those things right.
And so even that responsereally signals nothing as little
as thank you for the offer.
You know, it gives me a lot tothink about.
(18:16):
Can you tell me a little bitmore about the rest of the
conditions, and so not simple tothe other side.
It's a very good offer, a verybad offer, and so that would be
an example of if you thoughtabout it in advance and how it's
executed differently, it willgive a very different feel to
the other side.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
Very rarely we talk the art of negotiating.
You know I have a salesbackground and learned a little
bit about it, but not to thedepth that you do.
I look at Shark Tank and watchhow people respond when the
office is on the table.
So that's my first thing, asyou were speaking like man, I
watched a lot of Shark Tank,like can they keep their
composure, do they hold out andhow do they get to that place of
being comfortable?
And like, hey, that'sinteresting.
You know you start asking morequestions versus yes, let's go
(18:51):
cool without asking questionsbecause there are other things
that may be predicated on thatoffer.
What other tips do you give forpeople that are in the space of
negotiating?
I'm a small business owner andwhen we go put contracts,
proposals in front of ourclients, you know, or before we
even get there, oftentimes it'slike they haven't thought of
what this service is and how tobuy from me.
They don't really know thenumbers to the degree that I
would like for them to know thenumbers, and I've walked into
(19:13):
those situations.
So I almost have to educatethem without insulting them or
making them think I'movercharging.
So I get stuck in.
Hey, if it's too low in my head, they may not think it's worth
what you know.
Like that was low, which kindof bothers me sometimes, like if
it's too low they don't thinkyour service is good and if it's
too high they think you'reoverpriced.
Sometimes that's a dance in myhead.
Maybe some other people as well.
(19:34):
How do you manage that?
Like you're not coming in toolow where it doesn't seem like
it's worth the value, or you'recoming in too high where you're
overcharging and you're askingfor too much.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
So I think one in the conversations you get to the
price, the easier it is, theless likely that's going to
happen, because the more timeyou've had a chance to kind of
build value, so you almost thinkabout it as 10% into the
process.
You get a price then based onvery little.
You're going to say, oh, it'stoo much or too little, but
there's kind of less trackrecord there.
If 50% of the way in theprocess, then you get the price
(20:07):
and there's enough track recordsfor the value that the services
could provide, and so there'sless likely right that the price
is one data point of 20 at thatpoint rather than one of one if
it's earlier on in the process.
And so generally really ourbiggest advice there is around
probing right, asking a lot ofgreat questions, and we talk
about how in negotiations,asking great questions is both
the way to find out informationwhich is critically critical.
(20:28):
So I think that's one of thethings that we're trying to do
and I think that's one of thethings that we're trying to do
and I think that's one of thethings that we're trying to do
and I think that's one of thethings that we're trying to do
and I think that's one of thethings that we're trying to do.
And I think that's one of thethings that we're trying to do
and I think that's one of thethingsant, if you will right,
you're willing to trust eachother and potentially do some
(20:50):
things that maybe aren't in theagreement or, you know, cut each
other some slack or all thethings that happen when
negotiation, because there's arelationship in place, is really
really critical.
And so you know certainly youunderstand this from your sales
experience that a really goodsalesperson, a good negotiator
and a good leader can developrelationship quickly and connect
with the other side, and a bigpart of that is asking great
questions, right, and so that'sone of the fundamental drivers
(21:14):
in doing it, because, face it,who doesn't like someone who
spends time asking questions andgenuinely cares about your
answers, right?
That's kind of even thisconversation.
That's what it is.
It's a fireside chat where bothof us are totally invested.
It changes kind of the qualityof the conversation.
Yeah, I love it is kind of thequality of the conversation.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
Yeah, I love it and thank you for taking us to the
relationship, because I tellpeople all the time, social
capital is better sometimes thanthe degree that's hanging
around that wall.
Social capital matters.
How do you get to the place ofso?
Numbers don't become an issue.
I say, if you do social capitalwell, numbers don't become as
powerful as you may think ordistractor as much as they could
be, because if you don't builda social capital, it can cause
(21:49):
you to get derailed really,really quick.
How do you help people buildsocial capital or the
relationship, if you will?
Speaker 3 (21:54):
So one of the things we talk about is, if you think
of a relationship, one of thebig goals of it and the outcomes
of it, from a correlationperspective, is trust.
You're building trust andcredibility.
Really, that just means thatyou care about the other side
and what they have to say andwhat you may discuss, and so I
think we have an equation thatwe talk about.
It's got a few variables, butthe ones that really stick out
to me are, number one, thereally around the intention.
(22:14):
So do you have the bestself-interest?
You know, your ownself-interest or theirs in mind?
And we said earlier that youcan feel that, and so that's why
it's a big part of that, right.
So if you're a thinking aboutthe company versus also thinking
about them, right that theyfeel like you would go to bat
for them.
So if there's going to bemassive layoffs, you would go to
(22:37):
bat for them.
Or if you're going to make achange, you would buy them more
time or give them a heads up inadvance, or the things that a
good leader might do.
And so that intent and reallyis a really critical one right
Is the interest and what'simportant to them.
Number one.
Number two is reliability right, as you can rely on people more
, and so things that we talkedabout, these little things that
make a big difference.
(22:57):
So in conversations, forexample, if you know, let's say
for a second, you're anentrepreneur and you're pitching
for, let's say, a big round andyou raise funds, well, if you
give yourself a fewopportunities to be reliable, so
I will give you a call nextTuesday to you know, chat about
this.
I'll send you this informationby Thursday Next month when I
(23:19):
get my quarterlies done, I'llsend this over to you.
What you're doing is you'recreating opportunities where you
can do what you said you weregoing to do, and that really
demonstrates reliability.
That goes a long way.
So if the intention is positive, the reliability.
And then there's are youbringing value to the table,
right?
So in any one of theseunfortunately that's a reality
you cannot avoid, right, and sowe talked about it earlier that
you know, in sales it makes yougenerous.
There's really value innegotiating leadership, or you
(23:40):
have to actually know whatyou're talking about from a
leadership perspective, and sothose are all really factors
that go into it, and so ifyou're doing every one of those,
and the final last thing isconnection.
And so connection is somethingwhere it's really driven by
similarities.
Naturally, some folks are good,trained at doing that, but it's
about finding connections right.
And so, oh, we're both Steelersfans, or oh, we both love to
(24:00):
grow roses or we like to sail,or we have kids, or the
connection points.
And it's funny, you know, hewas a very, very simple really
and those connection points makeus feel like, oh, they're kind
of like me, and so very quickly,all of a sudden, you feel a
little bit more comfortable.
So if you're doing those things, you find some similarities,
you show reliability, you've gottheir best interest in heart
and there's some value there.
Typically, those relationshipswill really blossom on a
(24:22):
personal and professional level.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
Wow, I mean you dropped five things that are
super important and I'llregertstate those fourths.
How long does it take to dothose five things you mentioned?
To build trust it has to bebuilt quick Intent being
reliable, adding value andconnection.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
I think it would be kind of like climbing a ladder,
if you will, so you know, to getto the highest level, where you
really trust someone right,where it's the kind of person
that you know.
Ron, I call you before I makeany really big, important
decision in my life.
Well, it's at the top of theladder.
That'll take months, years,right, and so over a long period
of time, but certainly thatfirst step or two can be done
very quickly, right, so veryquickly.
But the one thing I would sayin all this, it's got to be
(24:58):
genuine right.
I think it's the one biggestthing it's important for you to
take away, and you mentionedearlier, and so it's gotta be
driven by Jen and Karasi, right,so connections that are made
because you really care, notbecause you're kind of going
through emotions, because youcan really feel that.
But I think that first rung upthe ladder is really easy to do
and it's just a matter of beingcurious about.
You know what does the personcare about, right, where are you
(25:20):
based, and you know what do youcare.
Do you have family?
Or you know what are yourhobbies, or tell me more about
what you do, and so you thinkabout it.
Humans have a lot more commonthat we have.
Potentially, that's differingas far as even what we believe
or feel, and so I think ifyou're thinking about making
those connections, and theintent is to make those
connections, it actually happenspretty quickly.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
Yes, yes, and I'm glad that you ran through that,
because oftentimes we think ittakes like I don't have the time
and people hear that.
What do you say to the personthat makes that statement?
Hey, you know what?
I hear you, andreas, but Idon't have the time to do this
thing.
What's your message to them?
Speaker 3 (25:53):
that you get from it If you don't have the time.
I think life is verytransactional, so forget about
the fact that you're going toimprove your performance.
From a negotiation standpoint,leadership standpoint, the
currency of those is potentiallymore important than a diploma
years of experience.
That would be equivalent ofwealth, right?
(26:15):
If you had 25 people, you couldcall on 10 people you could
call on that.
Have access to folks andimportant networks and they
would do anything for you.
That's worth a lot, right, it'snot worth as much as a really
good degree.
You're starting a great company, so I think it's really
understanding that, but ideallyhe's not doing the self-serving
way, but instead I think, like,just like, if you have a spouse
(26:36):
or a partner and you get moresatisfaction when you share
something with them, it'd be thesame way, right, that if you go
like it's very transactional,if you don't really connect with
anybody, and so you're going toget more out of it, and your
satisfaction will go up ifyou're enjoying it with other
people, right, I mean, life'stoo short not to yes, yes, in
your practice and yourexperiences between trust,
paying attention to your intentbeing reliable, making sure you
(26:57):
add value not just becausesometimes you get stuck on the
value piece like this is a goodtool.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
Well, it's an added value.
It doesn't mean it's foreveryone.
What do you see people gettingstuck the most out of those five
things?
So trust, intent being reliable, adding value and connection
what do you see people gettingstuck at the most?
Speaker 3 (27:14):
That's a good question, I think, even if it's
not maybe getting stuck, themost, definitely the easiest to
fix, in my opinion, is thereliability.
I mean everyone listening andyou, ron, do you think about
this, right?
Thinking about the last time,whether you bought something or
you called into customer serviceor you needed help with
something, like I think all thetimes they call customer service
and they say, oh, we'll callyou back or we'll help you with
this, so I'll send you an email.
(27:35):
It doesn't happen Someone'sselling you something and you
say, look, I am interested, butyou know, call me back in a
month because the timing's notright or whatever.
You think how many times theyactually do that.
It's very rare.
The reliability whether that'sthe thing that maybe folks trip
up on the most, I'm not sure,but it's unbelievably simple and
what makes it incredible is tobe a good leader, to be a good
(27:57):
negotiator, to be a goodsalesperson, to be any of the
good entrepreneur.
It's such an easy thing to face.
Just make sure that you do thethings you said you were going
to do.
Yes, you give a vocal example.
So I'm an adjunct at Hopkinshere in Baltimore.
At Johns Hopkins University, Iteach a class on sports
negotiation and every singleyear I've got, you know, between
15, 20ish students and thenkind of a small task.
(28:18):
I run in a session and everysingle year five or 10 of them
say I really need your helpgetting a job, and so keep in
touch.
And out of those 10 that reachout the day after the training
or the session's done or thecourse is done, then you know,
three of them will reach out amonth later and we'll get down
to one by the year later.
And so I've got, probably I'vetaught I think it's 10th year
(28:38):
now and I've got about three orfour students that still keep in
touch and every one of those Icontinually go to bat for
because they're reliable.
So over that period of time tome I'm willing to put my name
out for them because they'veshown me reliability, I know
what they said they were goingto do, and that's a reflection
of me when I recommend themthrough things.
But for the other 10, and it'snot a bad intention they do lean
(29:02):
to reach out versus the 10 thatreached out just the first time
and never followed up again,and the difference is massive.
And so I think if everyone'sdoing that, that's significant
compound interest fromrelationship capital.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
Oh, I love that you went there because if you listen
to the podcast, the thing thatis in your control is being
reliable.
So that's for your friends,that's for your personal
relationship, that's for yourprofessional relationships,
that's for your professionalrelationships, that's for doing
business.
A data point came out ofDeloitte I want to say, probably
about a month ago, about thatnot being the strongest suit of
what people are doing, and I usethe phrase does your audio
(29:35):
match your video?
If you say it, can I actuallysee you do it?
So, if you're listening, becomemore reliable and you'll
probably outdo 80% of yourcompetition.
It's one of the things thatchanges drastically, gives you
greater results faster.
So, if you're going to invest insomething out of the things
that Andres is sharing, bereliable.
Do what you say you're going todo all the time, not some of
(29:55):
the times, not six visits likeall the time.
It changes your results really,really fast.
So be reliable.
I love that you shared that.
Anything else that you haven'tshared with us that you think is
important for our audience,that you'd like to share before
we ask for your contactinformation and the best way to
leverage services or get incontact with you.
Speaker 3 (30:10):
I mean I love the way you just closed with somebody.
That's so practical.
I think you know it'sinteresting.
We covered a lot in our timetogether.
But the reliability piece, Ilove it because it's kind of
like that phrase that people saynow that you know comments
isn't so common and I think youknow reliability.
It seems pretty simple to dowhat you say you're going to do,
but very few people do it andyou stand out by doing it, and
so I think it's the simplethings, it's the little things
(30:31):
that make a big difference andwhen I was younger and earlier
on in my writing, reallyunderstand and appreciate that
as much as time goes on,everyone can kind of talk the
talk with very few walks.
You walk the walk and both in aconsistent way, and so I love
that piece of advice.
It's extremely practical andextremely impactful.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
Yes, I love it.
Thank you for sharing.
You dropped it.
I figured out how do we processit, but it is the thing that
you can do that really separatesyou really really fast.
So, Andres, thank you for yourtime today, For the audience and
the people that are listening.
You know, first of all, ifthere's something that you could
offer, so what would be thereasons why they would call you?
How can you help those of them?
Let's say, hey, we actuallyneed your service.
What are the top three things,or two, whatever the number is
(31:09):
for you that says hey, here'swhy you probably want to reach
out to us If you everencountered this, this or this.
Speaker 3 (31:14):
I love that question because people typically do come
to us when there's a challenge,right.
They just need help when thingsare going really well.
So for us it's typically from atraining side.
It's there's a challenge aroundnegotiations, your margins are
decreasing, there's a newcompetitor in play, your
procurement organization islooking to be upskilled, right,
and so I think it's very clearlysoft skills right, negotiation
(31:35):
and influencing and just aboutevery job function.
So I think if those skills needto be improved and on the
consulting side is if you needadvice and assistance with a
large negotiation coming up, andso we take it from M&A, player
contract negotiations andeverything in between.
So those are the kind of themost common reasons people reach
out to us Awesome, awesome.
What's the best way to reachout to you?
So the easiest really is kindof the one-stop shop.
(31:55):
For us is the website.
So wwwshapironegotiationscom.
I think it's a great place thatyou can find a little bit more
about us, our history, we workwith, what we do and also reach
out there.
We got contact forms everywhere.
It makes it easy to reach outand then it gets routed to the
appropriate person.
But that's the best place tostart.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
I would say yes yes, and I'll tell you it works.
I went to the website and didthe research, so anything that
you want you know.
Andreas, appreciate so much forjoining us and sharing.
You're the first I've had ontalking about the art of
negotiating, how to reallyleverage that, and you dropped
(32:32):
some really, really greatnuggets.
So remember the trust, be atthe intention of how you're
having these conversations.
Be reliable which is the onethat you're serving, versus like
what's in it for you all thetime and people don't want to
hear what's in it for you andmake sure you have a strong
connection.
Some of us drop connection andstill try to get stuff done.
The connection matters, so makesure you continue to connect
(32:53):
with the people that you'retrying to do business with.
Again, this is Ron HarveyUnpacked with Ron Harvey podcast
.
Thank y'all for joining us.
It's always a a pleasure tohave phenomenal guests come on
and give you something thatmakes a difference.
You can use everything Andrea'stalked about in your
professional personalrelationships across the board,
whether you're selling somethingor you're just trying to have
healthy relationships.
So thank y'all for joining us.
(33:13):
Again, andrea and I will saygoodbye to each one of you and
hopefully you tell someone elseabout the podcast and if you're
interested in joining or youwant to be a guest, just reach
out to our team and they willtake care of it and get you.
Want to be a guest?
Just reach out to our team andthey will take care of it and
get you, you know reach out toyou and get it connected for us.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
So thank you all again for joining us.
Well, we hope you enjoyed thisedition of Unpacked Podcast with
leadership consultant RonHarvey.
Remember to join us everyMonday as Ron unpacks sound
advice, providing real answersfor real leadership challenges.
Until next time, remember toadd value and make a difference
where you are, for the peopleyou serve, because people always
(33:51):
matter.
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