We explore how leaders can trade command-and-control for curiosity, build digital flexibility instead of defaulting to one channel, and use community to protect attention in a noisy, hybrid world. Craig shares stories behind Digital Overwhelm and practical ways to switch modes, set boundaries, and grow social capital that lasts.
• leading amid fast, relentless change
• listening as a core leadership skill
• filtering noise versus flexibility with modes
• practical boundaries and single-use tools
• old tech for deep focus and brain health
• teams, pit stops and shared norms
• why Craig wrote Digital Overwhelm
• two takeaways: mindfulness and mode switching
• communicating across generations with respect
• questions over commands and tracking consequences
• social capital and the “relationship score”
• task and gift: a healthier view of communication
You can find our book wherever books are sold. It’s called Digital Overwhelm: A Mid-Career Guide for Coping at Work. Connect with Craig at themodeswitch.com. Remember to join us every Monday as Ron Unpacks Sound Advice, providing real answers for real leadership challenges. Until next time, remember to add value and make a difference where you are or the people you serve. Because people always matter.
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Just Make A Difference: Leading Under Pressure by Ron Harvey
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The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the speakers and guests and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any organization or entity. The information provided in this podcast is intended for educational and informational purposes only and should not be considered as professional advice. Listeners should consult with their own professional advisors before implementing any suggestions or recommendations made in this podcast. The speakers and guests are not responsible for any actions taken by listeners based on the information presented in this podcast. The podcast is not intended to be a substitute for professional advice or services. The speakers and guests make no representations or warranties of any kind, express or implied, about the completeness, accuracy, reliability, suitability or availability with respect to the information, products, services, or related graphics contained in this ...
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
Welcome to Unpack Podcast with your host,
Leadership Consultant, RonHarvey of Global Core Strategies
and Consulting.
Ron believes that leadership isthe fundamental driver towards
making a difference.
So now, to find out more of whatit means to unpack leadership,
here's your host, Ron Harvey.
SPEAKER_01 (00:19):
Good morning, everyone.
This is Ron Harvey, the VicePresident and Chief Operating
Officer for Global CoreStrategies and Consulting.
We're a professional leadershipdevelopment firm based out of
Columbia, South Carolina.
And what we really do at the endof the day in a nutshell is we
help leaders be better connectedto the workforce and adapt to
the changes in the workforce andenvironment that's happening
constantly around all of us.
(00:39):
So how do we adjust as leadersto do the thing that people need
from us, which is take care ofthem?
We do that all day, every day.
We love it.
There are multiple ways we doit, but but I don't do the
podcast to really talk aboutthat.
But I do want you to know who weare and what we do in case you
need our services.
I bring guests on from aroundthe world, and it's called
Unpack with Ron Harveyintentionally because we don't
know what we're going toactually discuss throughout the
(01:01):
day, with exception ofleadership.
Our guests are invited to theopportunity to share what they
want to share, hold back whatthey want to hold back.
But we're really transparent andcandid about our challenges.
So I'm super excited.
Um, so we can go ahead and diveinto this.
I'm excited, but I guess he'scoming in from Michigan or
calling in from Michigan.
Um different weather than SouthCarolina.
Um, but I'm happy to have you,Craig.
(01:22):
Welcome to the show and thankyou for saying yes uh in advance
for to be a part of this show.
SPEAKER_00 (01:27):
Thank you, Ron.
You've used two words in yourintro that are really important
to me (01:31):
adjustment.
We do need to adapt to thesekind of changing contexts, and
that requires a lot of wisdom.
And then the other word you usewas challenge, and I focus a lot
on the challenges of thecontemporary workplace.
I'm an organizationalresearcher, and I serve as a
professor of communication atCalvin University in not so warm
(01:54):
Grand Rapids.
I have written several books,lots of essays, and I am
fascinated by the work ofcommunication in organizational
life.
I also like to hike, and my wifeand I live in Grand Rapids,
obviously.
Our four adult kids arescattered across the Midwest.
And I'm eager to talk with youabout some of the adjustments
(02:16):
we're having to make today andsome of the challenges we're
facing, especially in hybrid andremote and digital spaces.
Yes, I'm excited to have youhere.
SPEAKER_01 (02:25):
I mean, even with just the background, there's a
lot that I want to unpack.
Everybody knows I use that wordevery time on this podcast, and
that's just my way of lettingyou know a question is coming
up.
But there's a lot to unpack.
But what I would tell everyonethat's listening, you're talking
to real people that liveeveryday lives that manage and
navigate just like you do.
And sometimes we make it lookreal easy, Craig, how we do it.
And this show really says, Well,let me tell you the real recipe
(02:47):
of how to make that famous poundcake, if you wish.
It looks real easy and it tastesreal good.
But there's a recipe to thatpound cake, and that's what we
try to do here on Unpack isshare some of the tips, the
things we've learned, themistakes we've made, for you to
get it right and don't have toliterally take the stairs like
we did.
Hopefully, we'll put you on theescalator or we'll put you on
the elevator to make this alittle faster, but still very,
very effective.
(03:08):
So, so Craig, as you lean in andyou think about it, let's dive a
little bit into it'severything's changing right now.
You got AI, you got all kinds ofyou know, technology, you got
things that have everythingaround us is changing super fast
and it's not going to slow downanytime soon.
What's the challenge with thefact that everything's changing?
SPEAKER_00 (03:26):
Where are leaders really having a hard time with
change?
I think one of the hardestthings to do in times of radical
change, like we're experiencing,is to listen well to other
people.
For this book project, DigitalOverwhelm, I spent a lot of
time, about a year, listening todozens of Gen Z and millennial
professionals asking them, howare you coping with the
(03:49):
intensities of the early 2020s?
And that exercise in listeningreally taught me a lot.
But one of the most importantthings it taught me is just the
vitality of listenership, makingsure that you're hearing people
around you.
And in times of tectonicshifting, like we're
experiencing today,technologically, politically,
(04:13):
culturally, and oftenpersonally, it's really hard to
hear the people around you.
You just have so many stories inyour head and so many panicky
voices in your head.
So that's where I try to put myenergies is listening carefully
to people in times of change.
SPEAKER_01 (04:28):
I love it, Craig.
I think you're spot on.
I love it, and you've done theresearch and have a phenomenal
book out there.
So super excited about that.
But when you think about all thesocial media, everybody has a
microphone now, everybody has avoice now, everybody immediately
can be on screen and you know,with just a camera and a
microphone, like you and I arehere on this one.
How do you get us to listen wheneverybody's given the
(04:50):
opportunity to speak now?
How do you literally slow downand listen?
SPEAKER_00 (04:55):
Way to start with a hard question, Ron.
That's like that's a great one.
Yeah, I mean, I will be thefirst to say, first to admit,
that you do have to filter.
There's a certain amount offiltering out of the noise in
our lives that is essential tojust being a person today.
And there are a lot of wisevoices telling us how to do
(05:16):
this.
I think of voices like LMSakasis.
He writes a newsletter every,you know, regularly about the
challenges of living in atechnologized society.
I think about Cal Newporttalking about, you know, he
wrote a book called A WorldWithout Email and another one
called Digital Minimalism.
And uh Nicholas Carr is anotherauthor, really talking wisely
(05:39):
about this.
So I'll be the first to admit,as you have pointed out, that
there's a lot of reason for usto filter today.
And sometimes that means pullingback.
It means quieting down ourlives, going analog.
But this book that I was wavingat the screen a moment ago,
Digital Overwhelm, attempts tohelp people not just sort of
(05:59):
filter things out, but topractice flexibility.
So not digital minimalismexactly, but digital
flexibility.
So that's not an easy piece ofadvice, but I do think it's an
important piece of advice whenso many of us are required by
our many callings and vocationsto be on screens a lot.
SPEAKER_01 (06:23):
It is a perfect topic and a lot to unpack here
because it's happening.
I mean, every day there'ssomething new coming digitally
for all of us.
You know, we're on a on aplatform yesterday, and the
question they asked us was ifyou can get rid of three apps
that will make your life moreconvenient, what would it be?
It was amazing how many peoplewould shut down, you know, apps
(06:44):
that they're constantly onthat's uh consuming their time,
that's not very productive, buteasily caught up in, as I call
it, the scrolling, the the swipeto the right or swipe to the
left or swipe down.
You get sucked into this spaceof I gotta keep up with
everything going on around me.
And people are literally lockedin with the heads down into
these.
How do we manage this digitalplatform effectively and listen
(07:05):
to people?
SPEAKER_00 (07:06):
Well, actually, we might learn a little bit from
the kids you were justreferencing.
I was reading, I think it wasjust two days ago, that social
media usage is it's never beenhigher in the US, and people
distrust social media also to ahuge degree.
So that's a weird statistic.
Like people are using it a lot,but they don't trust it.
But Gen Alpha, the youngerrising generation, is maybe the
(07:29):
most leery generation aboutsocial media.
But your question's aboutquieting things down, and I
think to the degree that youhave choice in that, I mean, you
should exercise your agency.
Uh, you should think about whatyou're after, what your goals
are, what your aspirations are.
And then don't be afraid oftechnology and the tools, but
(07:50):
try as much as you can just touse those tools that really
serve your goals, the thingsthat you're hoping for in your
life.
And then I think it's alsoimportant to recognize that you
can't just quiet things down onyour own.
It's terribly difficult as anindividual to combat some of the
biggest, you know, most moneyedcorporations in the world who
(08:12):
are exerting all of the power oftheir billions to harvest your
attention.
And who of us could resist themalone?
So we really need community.
In my book, Digital Overwhelm,I'm talking about working
community.
For other people, that might bechurch community or a school
community, it might be aneighborhood, it might be your
own household.
(08:32):
But I think more than ever,yeah, in the sort of attempt to
keep our balance in digitaloverwhelm, we really need
people.
That's a truth I'll stand by.
SPEAKER_01 (08:44):
How do you balance it, Craig?
You know, if you're coming upand you got leaders that are
coming up that are younger andthey're climbing this corporate
ladder or they're runningorganizations, or they're like
me, I'm a business owner, whereyou can't stay totally unplugged
from it because you kind of gotto be able to have a
conversation, know enough aboutit where you walk into the room,
you feel pretty intelligent as aleader.
And some of us got impostersyndrome, think we have to know
it all.
Nobody knows it all.
(09:04):
If you're listening, nobodyknows it all.
If you find that person, getaway from them.
But the reality is, how do youbalance it effectively where you
consume just enough to beeffective, but not so much that
you become distracted?
SPEAKER_00 (09:16):
I should probably ask you that question.
I'll give two ideas, and thenI'd like to hear how you've
managed to do this maybe a bitin your own experience.
Yeah.
So two ideas from me is one, usesingle-use technology as much as
you can, or maybe fewer usetechnology.
I'm talking to you on my laptopright now, and it's the
convergence of so many parts ofmy life.
(09:37):
The classes I'm teaching, theresearch I'm doing, the family
stuff I'm keeping up with.
And so recently I bought anotepad, a digital notepad, but
it really can't do anything.
I can write with it, and that'sit.
It doesn't really have any appsor anything.
And that is, you know, it costabout 400 bucks.
And I realized after I bought itthat it was really a way to buy
(09:59):
attention for myself, to buysome concentration.
So I think sometimes we can usetechnology to help us filter out
technology and get some quietfor ourselves.
Well, let me just turn thataround to you.
Like, how have you managed tofind ways to quiet down the
digital noise in your life as abusiness owner?
SPEAKER_01 (10:18):
I love that you shared, like, you know, using
technology to reduce sometechnology.
And I'll tell you for everyonethat's listening, a phenomenal
question is I intentionally onmy calendar block out quiet
times.
Like literally, if you go to mycalendar, you'll really see the
word block.
Personal time.
And I put it on there just likeI would put for this podcast, I
would put for client work andengagement.
(10:40):
And that's daily for me.
And so I get up and I work outevery morning, but I work out an
hour that no one's looking forme.
And I have a downtime, like atthe end of the day for me, I
shut down at a certain time ofthe day.
And people, I've trained peoplethat are clients and customers
and friends and relatives.
Like after this time, he's nottaking any calls, he's not on
any emails, he's not checkingany messages.
(11:01):
Like, if you want him, these arethe hours that he functions,
that he does it, because therest of the time I he needs to
recuperate and practiceself-care.
So for everyone that'slistening, I practice a lot of
self-care and it's veryintentional.
SPEAKER_00 (11:12):
Yeah, I like that.
I need to discipline myself abit more about setting aside
time actually on my Outlookcalendar, you know, like marking
it off.
I think that's a great practice,a good tactic.
Another one that comes to mindfor me for again sort of
quieting down your life is touse older technology.
So uh there's a technologycalled a pen and a technology
(11:33):
called a book.
When those first came out, youknow, the pen came out 2,400
years ago, people were prettyfreaked out about it.
Like, what is this gonna do tous?
But sometimes using an olderform of technology can help to
orient you a bit.
It can connect you to olderconventions and traditions and
customs and communities.
And I've certainly found thatwith using a physical book, you
(11:56):
know, just I know it's a littleself-serving because I write
books, so I hope people readbooks, but I think it's also
just a really good healthypractice to I think your brain
will love you if you take sometime to hold a book, even if
it's just for 15 or 20 minutes.
SPEAKER_01 (12:12):
So I get it, Craig.
I mean, for those people thatbut I will tell you like as
you're listening to us, you knowhow important it is to have a
book to slow your brain down.
Some you know, the brain is ismultifast and it does some
amazing things, but it's alsogood for brain health to slow it
down sometimes.
I kind of the analogy I wouldlove to use, Craig, is it's like
a race car driver.
(12:32):
As fast as that car is at theDaytona 500 or any race that you
may follow if you follow racecar driving, there's a pit stop
that it has to make to refreshand refuel and refit the tires
and slow.
They literally have to, ifthey're in first place, they
have to come out of the race, gointo the pit stop so they can
stay in the race.
And I think as humans, we'regonna have to figure out where's
the pit stop for us so we canstay in this thing called life.
(12:56):
Because the world is moving likethat race car, 350 miles per
hour, and it's not gonna slowdown.
And but there's a pit crew chiefthat says you must come in, you
have no option, the tires aregoing bald, your fuel is running
low, the car is running hot,you're exhausted, you need a
break, you need some thosethings that keep you in the
race.
How do you make sure you canstay in the race long term
(13:16):
versus stay in the lead all thetime?
SPEAKER_00 (13:18):
I don't know if you've heard of the author
Yurian Kamer, but he uses ananalogy very like what you're
saying.
He wrote a book calledUnblocked, which I highly
recommend.
But Kammer studied the sort ofpit stops of Formula One racers.
Yes.
And he watched the teams.
And again, I think that's areminder that we can't do this
(13:39):
alone, that those pit stops arenot just, you know, sort of
self-care.
They're also times where we needto just be with other humans in
a sort of non-performancefocused way.
I guess in a Formula One pitstop, though, that's pretty
performance focused.
So I'll have to think about thata bit more.
But I like the reminder againthat we're usually functioning
(14:00):
on some kind of team orpartnership or collaboration.
And attending to those groupdynamics is challenging today.
We work remotely so often.
We're in hybrid conditions.
So I guess I keep coming back tothis sort of group dynamics of
leadership and workingcommunity.
Yes, yes.
You have the book.
SPEAKER_01 (14:20):
I mean, you got digital overwhelm.
What were you seeing that said,I need to write this book, you
know, and then I have afollow-up question.
But what made you write thebook?
People's stories.
SPEAKER_00 (14:27):
I started having some conversations with people
who had graduated from theprogram where I was teaching,
and I was reaching out to themfive, 10 years out from their
graduation, and like I said,just asking, How are you coping?
And the stories I was hearingwere so stunning that I was
like, oh wow, there's a bookhere.
There's a set of stories here,and there's really wisdom here.
(14:48):
Some of the stories were reallypainful stories, like stories of
harassment in the workplace.
I remember talking with an in aperson who was describing her
internship.
She was now well into hercareer, but she was describing
her internship and, you know,being summoned into a back
office by her internship managerwho was inviting her to have a
drink.
(15:08):
And it was just so creepy andscary to her.
And she really didn't have thekind of leverage and power to
just be decisive in that moment.
I also heard stories that werereally encouraging.
I talked with a guy who was ateam lead.
He was a tester at a major videogame company.
And he was all about thelogistics and the process and
(15:31):
the technology involved indesigning games.
He loved it.
He was his passion.
He was a gamer himself.
So this was his dream job.
And then, yeah, I think wereconnected six months later.
And he said, Hey, my job'schanged.
And I am now working as I'mmanaging a team here.
I'm not just testing games, I'mmanaging people.
And he said that for him, alittle surprisingly, maybe, it
(15:54):
was a chance to take a deepbreath and say, okay, I've got
to do some people care here.
And that was a reallyinspirational story to me about
this guy making this shift frombeing really like task-focused
and you know, project-oriented,and then shifting towards that
sort of almost like pastoral ortherapeutic work with his team.
(16:17):
So it was those stories thatmade me want to write, Ron.
It was just hearing thosestories.
Wow.
SPEAKER_01 (16:22):
What do you hope for the people that are going to
pick it up and become readers ofwhat you've written in the
books?
What do you hope they walk awaywith?
SPEAKER_00 (16:29):
I think two things.
One is just paying attention tothe way the digital has altered
our working arrangements andjust becoming mindful of that at
all times, that, like, yeah,this is making this weird right
now.
And how do I stay human in themiddle of that weirdness?
I think being aware, beingmindful of the role of
(16:51):
technology in our everydaylives, so often it's invisible.
So often it's just sort ofsomething we're using without
thinking about.
We're just thinking about thetask.
But to sort of pull back and payattention to that, it's a little
bit like looking at yourwindshield while you're driving.
You're trying to spot a crack orsomething in your windshield,
it's a little disconcerting andit can feel strange.
(17:13):
But I think, you know, lookingat what you're usually looking
through can really be a help inthe workplace.
And then the second thing I'vealready mentioned, and that is
that I hope people can, byreading my book, cultivate more
communicational flexibility, notgetting stuck in a particular
approach to communication, butdeveloping multiple approaches,
(17:35):
multiple modes is what I callthem.
And that digital flexibility, Ithink, is one way to really help
our working communities tothrive.
SPEAKER_01 (17:45):
So, Craig, you've been in you've been in the
space, you've been in education,I learned for a while, and
you've watched it changed.
If you can share something withpeople that are watching these
different generations, and youeven mentioned another
generation, you know, as youwere speaking earlier, what
advice would you give to people?
Because I'm sure you have tomodify your teaching style, your
ability to listen, where do youlean in?
(18:06):
And it's changed over the years.
What advice do we give toleaders that are trying to
figure out how do they take careof five or six generations in
the workforce?
SPEAKER_00 (18:13):
Yeah, that's a terrifically difficult task.
I mean, every week I podcastwith an intergenerational team.
We have a boomer, Xer,millennial, and Gen Z.
And yeah, it's complicated.
There are lots of differentkinds of feelings and
perspectives in the room, evenfor a podcast where we're all
trying to do the same thing.
But I think, first of all, mysympathies to the leaders today,
like it's hard work.
(18:34):
There's a layer of labor workingwith remote teams, working with
hybrid groups that managers 30years ago would find completely
alienating or strange.
So my compassion, my sympathieswith leaders today, you're doing
important work and it's not easywork.
But I guess in some ways, Ithink I'm recapping here, Ron.
(18:55):
I think that not dismissingother generations, but saying
they're probably able to seesomething that I'm not seeing.
So the analogy that works for meis if you can imagine a
collection of concentric rows ofchairs.
So you've got a circle within acircle within a circle within a
circle until you finally havejust one chair in the middle.
(19:17):
And that's the CEO.
But as you move outward on thatcircle, you also find that the
people on the outer edges of thecircle can see things that the
people in the middle cannot.
So people who are on the marginsof our organizations, which
often is our younger folk, thejust hireds, they see things
that those of us who might becloser to the middle aren't able
(19:39):
to see.
We're sort of focused on what'sgoing on right in front of us.
But they see that and they alsosee from their perspective.
So I think not dismissing thatperspective, recognizing that it
is limited.
I mean, there are ways that theyare just very new to this whole
thing called work culture andworking community, but also
acknowledging, conceding thatthey can see things that you
(20:01):
probably can't easily see.
And um, that's I think mybiggest piece of advice and my
takeaway from doing this work.
SPEAKER_01 (20:08):
You know, one of the things that we always try to
unpack is for those people thatare in spaces that we get to
talk about on the podcast iswhat's the real practical thing
that you can do that doesn'trequire you to go get another
higher level educational degree,but just things that you can
actually do every day that youcan work that muscle and get
better at it.
Communication has changeddrastically for all of us.
Um, how we communicate, when wecommunicate, what we say, what
(20:30):
we don't say.
Some of our leaders are saying,well, people are too sensitive.
I mean, judgment, you know, um,or people are not listening, or
people are too busy, or peopledon't want to slow down.
I mean, there are a lot ofthings that we're using to label
what we see, and sometimesaccurate, sometimes inaccurate,
most times pretty ineffectivebecause people don't like to be
labeled.
How have you seen, you know, forus to be more effective, what
(20:51):
does that communication stylelook like?
Because I know you love splitplaying in the space of
communication.
SPEAKER_00 (20:56):
I think that's a $64,000 question.
So here's something I've beenthinking about lately.
I mean, just this morning,honestly, I've been thinking
about this.
There's a body of theory calledrelational frame theory.
And people who use relationalframe theory try to help other
people to become more flexiblein their thinking.
(21:19):
When I was reading that, I waslike, that's what managers are
often trying to do.
They're trying to help theirteam move from a small picture
perspective to a bigger pictureperspective.
And sometimes they need the teamto do that to them too, right?
The leaders are micromanaging orthey're obsessed on a particular
metric or something, and theyneed their team to say, hey,
look, there's a bigger picturehere.
So we all need this.
(21:40):
So I was like, yeah, how do weuse communication to move from
small picture to big picturethinking?
And there's this concept calledtracking.
And tracking is when you lookvery carefully at your context,
and then you look at what'shappening in that context and
you ask about the consequencesof that.
In other words, like Dr.
(22:00):
Phil used to ask, you ask, how'sthat working for you?
When you do this thing, what arethe consequences of it?
Because a surprising lot of usare unwilling to face the
consequences of what happenswhen we do this or that.
But I don't think as a leader ora manager, you can just tell
people, look, you're stop doingthat.
(22:22):
What you can do is to usecommunication, everyday
conversation, to help people tonotice the consequences of their
actions in a particular context.
And so that's, I think, my pieceof advice today is help people
to track what's going on byasking simple questions.
And then what happened, youknow, is a good question.
(22:44):
Or another one that I've heardis if yourself from five years
ago could look at what's goingon here, like what would that
self say?
Or if yourself from five yearsdown the road could look at your
situation now, like what wouldthey say?
Those sorts of conversationalmoves help people to like loosen
up their perspective and beginto track what's actually
(23:05):
happening in the workplace.
And I think that's one way tomove towards a big picture
perspective.
SPEAKER_01 (23:11):
I love it, Greg.
I mean, the asking of thequestions, you know, telling all
of our leaders the day ofcommand and control are telling
everybody what to do are fargone.
And whether we agree or disagreewith it, the reality is that
that's not as effective as itused to be.
That we've changed as people.
I mean, pretty brilliant andintelligent people.
So if you're telling everybodywhat to do, it's about how smart
you are.
(23:32):
But if you ask questions, justgiving them permission to be
smart and help you get it done.
So I would tell you, slow downand ask more questions.
Yeah, you know, if you're theleader that's telling everybody
everything to do all day long,yeah.
If you disappear, yourorganization's in trouble.
Yeah, that's exhausting.
Yeah, it is very exhausting.
And I think sometimes I, youknow, when I was younger, I used
(23:52):
to want to have the answer.
I felt like I had to have theanswer.
And often back in those days,you kind of had to have the
answer to get promoted.
But there was some ego that camealong with that too.
I felt good about having all theanswers, and people had to come
to me.
So you gotta kind of get overyourself too if you're gonna do
this really, really well.
Because it may feel nice, butit's not sustainable long term
for you to have all the answers.
SPEAKER_00 (24:10):
Yeah, that's good.
That's really good advice, Ron.
I like that.
It may feel nice, it may feelgood for the moment, but it
might not be working for you.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (24:20):
Yes, yes.
So, where can we find the bookat?
I mean, we've mentioned the booka couple of times, so you have
digital overwhelm, and I'm sureit's out.
Where can we find it at?
And then we'll we'll go into howdo people reach out to you, come
on your podcast, answer somequestions.
But I love to do this forbusiness development.
I love for us to have answersfor people and they can reach
out to you or me.
You know, this is a communityplatform for us to help people
(24:41):
while at the same time servingpeople.
SPEAKER_00 (24:43):
Yeah.
I'm afraid my answer is kind ofboring.
I mean, you can find this bookwherever books are sold.
I'm from Grand Rapids, so I loveSchuler books.
You can find them online.
You can also go to Amazon andfind the book.
It's called simply DigitalOverwhelm: A Mid-Career Guide
for Coping at Work.
And it examines six differentmodes of communication and looks
(25:04):
at the strengths and weaknessesof each.
So I think it's a prettypractical book, but it's also a
reflective book.
So it's not one of those kind ofairport self-helpy books.
It's a book that will help youto, I don't know, dig deep in
your own soul, in your own work.
You can find ways to connectwith me at my website,
themodeswitch.com.com.
(25:29):
And I would be so pleased.
I'm not one of those authors whonever wants to connect with a
reader.
I'm I'm absolutely delighted.
If you pick up a copy of mybook, I would be so happy to
jump on a call with you and hearhow you're experiencing it.
So thanks for facilitating thoseconnections, Ron.
I'd I'd love to connect withsome of your listeners.
SPEAKER_01 (25:48):
Yes, I love it.
And that's really what it'sabout for us being able to stay
connected to the people.
I kind of like it too.
No, you can be as smart and asbrilliant and as talented as you
wish.
If you don't have a connection,it stays with you.
So we're meant to be connectedto other human beings.
So stay connected, reach out topeople, ask questions, make
yourself accessible, andconstantly learn and figure out
who's smarter than you in theroom and who can help you in the
(26:09):
room.
That's what I've done in myentire career and still do it in
my business.
Any last-minute advice you wouldgive that you got from someone
that's still serving you welltoday?
SPEAKER_00 (26:17):
Well, you talked about being real on this
podcast, and I'll say somethingthat has been kind of a
difficult experience for me overthe years.
Just three years ago, I switchedinstitutions and I went from one
college to another, a largercollege, a university, and I was
very excited to make this move.
And I'm still happy to be atthis university very much.
But one thing I wasn't expectingwas a kind of drain on social
(26:41):
capital.
So when you're in one place fora while, you you build up some
connections and some networksand some friendships and
collegiality.
And yeah, I sort of took thatfor granted.
And I came to a new institution,and there was a whole nother
layer to the work.
And that was a work I waswilling to do, but it took quite
a lot of time, a lot of coffeeshops, a lot of shared lunches,
(27:03):
a lot of walks with people totry to build the connections
that we all so much need.
So I guess so many leaders todayare having rather short terms in
their work.
They're at an institution that'sa little bit unstable, perhaps,
and they might be there for justa couple of years.
When you do move from oneinstitution to another, and I
don't wish this on you, but ifyou do move, yeah, keep in mind
(27:26):
the important work of connectionmaking and network building and
even friendship cultivation ineach place that you work.
Wow, great.
SPEAKER_01 (27:36):
I mean, people that follow me know that you're
you're speaking my language allthe time.
So I tell people it's my socialcapital has opened up doors and
got me places and allowed me todo things that sometimes my
education wasn't the entrypoint.
It literally was social capital.
So I tell all of our leaders,you you gotta have a good social
capital.
iPhone is a phenomenal phone.
(27:56):
Shut off the Wi-Fi and allconnection, and it's just a
paperweight.
And I think oftentimes we walkin rooms with a lot of wisdom
and knowledge, but we don't havethe connection and we don't
serve the way we could servebecause we are not connected, so
we can do the work.
So no matter how talented, howgood, what your title, who you
are, where you sit at in thebuilding, your connections are
what get things done.
(28:17):
Now I still want you to beintelligent, but I don't want
you to be intelligent and notsocial.
I still want you to have theposition, but I don't want you
to be the highest rankingperson, but nobody has access to
you.
SPEAKER_00 (28:27):
Yeah, yeah, that sounds right to me too, Ron.
SPEAKER_01 (28:30):
Thanks.
Yeah, so I you're speaking mylanguage, like, man, that's
another podcast.
We need to bring it back onbecause you know that's
something that I will tell youthat for us.
I here's what I would like it tofor all our listeners, Craig.
I compare my I call itrelationship score.
I treat it just as I treat mycredit score.
Because when I want to be ableto purchase something that's
(28:51):
important to my family, I wantto be able to get it at the
lowest interest rate.
I don't want to have so I wantpeople to be willing to want to
help me purchase this big item.
What's your relationship scorewith the people that you need to
help you with?
Is it a 400 or is it 800?
Yeah, and I and I and I monitorthat daily.
SPEAKER_00 (29:07):
Yeah, that's a good metric.
That's a really good metric.
SPEAKER_01 (29:09):
I use it and it served me well.
And people, I say it's just whatI watch.
I literally watched, you know,people will pick up my when I
call them, they'll pick it upversus swipe to the left or
don't answer.
They'll respond to an email.
When I call them, they'repretty, you know, people come on
our podcast because ofrelationships.
You know, uh, I don't do itbecause of you know, phenomenal
guests like you, but I stay intouch with our guests.
SPEAKER_00 (29:28):
Thank you.
Yeah, well, that's a greatpromise.
I I look forward to staying intouch with you, Ron.
That's good to hear.
Awesome, awesome.
SPEAKER_01 (29:34):
Craig, you've been phenomenal for everyone on the
show.
I'm gonna give some contactinformation, then I'm gonna ask
Craig if there's anything hewants to close out with.
I always invite our guests toclose out the show.
So before Craig closes us out,you can always find us on our
website, Global CourseStrategies and Consulting.
Everything leadership, how doyou be sustainable?
There are plenty of ways to dothat.
And if you're interested in youknow someone that'll be a
(29:55):
phenomenal guest that has valueto add to the show, we'd love to
welcome and invite our guests tothe show.
Um, just let them know inadvance there are no questions
in advance.
This is a real conversation inreal time um with all of our
guests, and we share a lot ofvalue.
So for now, I'm gonna pause, I'mgonna hand the microphone to
Craig and let him close us out.
SPEAKER_00 (30:12):
I'm so honored.
So I guess my last word would beto keep in mind that every
organizational communicationbetween leaders and followers,
between followers and leaders,is both a task and a gift.
It's easy to see it as just atask and to forget that it's a
gift.
It's also easy to think, youknow, get sort of so wrapped up
(30:34):
in the pleasure of it or the joyof it to forget that, oh no,
we've got a shared mission here.
So keeping in mind that everydigital communication is a task
and a gift is a piece of wisdomI think your leaders can walk
with.
SPEAKER_01 (30:48):
Awesome.
Thanks, Craig.
And until next time, Craig and Iare signing off, and thank you
for joining us on Unpack withRon Harvey.
SPEAKER_02 (30:55):
Well, we hope you enjoyed this edition of Unpack
Podcast with leadershipconsultant Ron Harvey.
Remember to join us every Mondayas Ron Unpacks Sound Advice,
providing real answers for realleadership challenges.
Until next time, remember to addvalue and make a difference
where you are or the people youserve.
(31:17):
Because people always matter.
Welcome to Unpack Podcast with your host,
Leadership Consultant, RonHarvey of Global Core Strategies
and Consulting.
Ron believes that leadership isthe fundamental driver towards
making a difference.
So now, to find out more of whatit means to unpack leadership,
here's your host, Ron Harvey.
SPEAKER_01 (00:19):
Good morning, everyone.
This is Ron Harvey, the VicePresident and Chief Operating
Officer for Global CoreStrategies and Consulting.
We're a professional leadershipdevelopment firm based out of
Columbia, South Carolina.
And what we really do at the endof the day in a nutshell is we
help leaders be better connectedto the workforce and adapt to
the changes in the workforce andenvironment that's happening
constantly around all of us.
(00:39):
So how do we adjust as leadersto do the thing that people need
from us, which is take care ofthem?
We do that all day, every day.
We love it.
There are multiple ways we doit, but but I don't do the
podcast to really talk aboutthat.
But I do want you to know who weare and what we do in case you
need our services.
I bring guests on from aroundthe world, and it's called
Unpack with Ron Harveyintentionally because we don't
know what we're going toactually discuss throughout the
(01:01):
day, with exception ofleadership.
Our guests are invited to theopportunity to share what they
want to share, hold back whatthey want to hold back.
But we're really transparent andcandid about our challenges.
So I'm super excited.
Um, so we can go ahead and diveinto this.
I'm excited, but I guess he'scoming in from Michigan or
calling in from Michigan.
Um different weather than SouthCarolina.
Um, but I'm happy to have you,Craig.
(01:22):
Welcome to the show and thankyou for saying yes uh in advance
for to be a part of this show.
SPEAKER_00 (01:27):
Thank you, Ron.
You've used two words in yourintro that are really important
to me (01:31):
adjustment.
We do need to adapt to thesekind of changing contexts, and
that requires a lot of wisdom.
And then the other word you usewas challenge, and I focus a lot
on the challenges of thecontemporary workplace.
I'm an organizationalresearcher, and I serve as a
professor of communication atCalvin University in not so warm
(01:54):
Grand Rapids.
I have written several books,lots of essays, and I am
fascinated by the work ofcommunication in organizational
life.
I also like to hike, and my wifeand I live in Grand Rapids,
obviously.
Our four adult kids arescattered across the Midwest.
And I'm eager to talk with youabout some of the adjustments
(02:16):
we're having to make today andsome of the challenges we're
facing, especially in hybrid andremote and digital spaces.
Yes, I'm excited to have youhere.
SPEAKER_01 (02:25):
I mean, even with just the background, there's a
lot that I want to unpack.
Everybody knows I use that wordevery time on this podcast, and
that's just my way of lettingyou know a question is coming
up.
But there's a lot to unpack.
But what I would tell everyonethat's listening, you're talking
to real people that liveeveryday lives that manage and
navigate just like you do.
And sometimes we make it lookreal easy, Craig, how we do it.
And this show really says, Well,let me tell you the real recipe
(02:47):
of how to make that famous poundcake, if you wish.
It looks real easy and it tastesreal good.
But there's a recipe to thatpound cake, and that's what we
try to do here on Unpack isshare some of the tips, the
things we've learned, themistakes we've made, for you to
get it right and don't have toliterally take the stairs like
we did.
Hopefully, we'll put you on theescalator or we'll put you on
the elevator to make this alittle faster, but still very,
very effective.
(03:08):
So, so Craig, as you lean in andyou think about it, let's dive a
little bit into it'severything's changing right now.
You got AI, you got all kinds ofyou know, technology, you got
things that have everythingaround us is changing super fast
and it's not going to slow downanytime soon.
What's the challenge with thefact that everything's changing?
SPEAKER_00 (03:26):
Where are leaders really having a hard time with
change?
I think one of the hardestthings to do in times of radical
change, like we're experiencing,is to listen well to other
people.
For this book project, DigitalOverwhelm, I spent a lot of
time, about a year, listening todozens of Gen Z and millennial
professionals asking them, howare you coping with the
(03:49):
intensities of the early 2020s?
And that exercise in listeningreally taught me a lot.
But one of the most importantthings it taught me is just the
vitality of listenership, makingsure that you're hearing people
around you.
And in times of tectonicshifting, like we're
experiencing today,technologically, politically,
(04:13):
culturally, and oftenpersonally, it's really hard to
hear the people around you.
You just have so many stories inyour head and so many panicky
voices in your head.
So that's where I try to put myenergies is listening carefully
to people in times of change.
SPEAKER_01 (04:28):
I love it, Craig.
I think you're spot on.
I love it, and you've done theresearch and have a phenomenal
book out there.
So super excited about that.
But when you think about all thesocial media, everybody has a
microphone now, everybody has avoice now, everybody immediately
can be on screen and you know,with just a camera and a
microphone, like you and I arehere on this one.
How do you get us to listen wheneverybody's given the
(04:50):
opportunity to speak now?
How do you literally slow downand listen?
SPEAKER_00 (04:55):
Way to start with a hard question, Ron.
That's like that's a great one.
Yeah, I mean, I will be thefirst to say, first to admit,
that you do have to filter.
There's a certain amount offiltering out of the noise in
our lives that is essential tojust being a person today.
And there are a lot of wisevoices telling us how to do
(05:16):
this.
I think of voices like LMSakasis.
He writes a newsletter every,you know, regularly about the
challenges of living in atechnologized society.
I think about Cal Newporttalking about, you know, he
wrote a book called A WorldWithout Email and another one
called Digital Minimalism.
And uh Nicholas Carr is anotherauthor, really talking wisely
(05:39):
about this.
So I'll be the first to admit,as you have pointed out, that
there's a lot of reason for usto filter today.
And sometimes that means pullingback.
It means quieting down ourlives, going analog.
But this book that I was wavingat the screen a moment ago,
Digital Overwhelm, attempts tohelp people not just sort of
(05:59):
filter things out, but topractice flexibility.
So not digital minimalismexactly, but digital
flexibility.
So that's not an easy piece ofadvice, but I do think it's an
important piece of advice whenso many of us are required by
our many callings and vocationsto be on screens a lot.
SPEAKER_01 (06:23):
It is a perfect topic and a lot to unpack here
because it's happening.
I mean, every day there'ssomething new coming digitally
for all of us.
You know, we're on a on aplatform yesterday, and the
question they asked us was ifyou can get rid of three apps
that will make your life moreconvenient, what would it be?
It was amazing how many peoplewould shut down, you know, apps
(06:44):
that they're constantly onthat's uh consuming their time,
that's not very productive, buteasily caught up in, as I call
it, the scrolling, the the swipeto the right or swipe to the
left or swipe down.
You get sucked into this spaceof I gotta keep up with
everything going on around me.
And people are literally lockedin with the heads down into
these.
How do we manage this digitalplatform effectively and listen
(07:05):
to people?
SPEAKER_00 (07:06):
Well, actually, we might learn a little bit from
the kids you were justreferencing.
I was reading, I think it wasjust two days ago, that social
media usage is it's never beenhigher in the US, and people
distrust social media also to ahuge degree.
So that's a weird statistic.
Like people are using it a lot,but they don't trust it.
But Gen Alpha, the youngerrising generation, is maybe the
(07:29):
most leery generation aboutsocial media.
But your question's aboutquieting things down, and I
think to the degree that youhave choice in that, I mean, you
should exercise your agency.
Uh, you should think about whatyou're after, what your goals
are, what your aspirations are.
And then don't be afraid oftechnology and the tools, but
(07:50):
try as much as you can just touse those tools that really
serve your goals, the thingsthat you're hoping for in your
life.
And then I think it's alsoimportant to recognize that you
can't just quiet things down onyour own.
It's terribly difficult as anindividual to combat some of the
biggest, you know, most moneyedcorporations in the world who
(08:12):
are exerting all of the power oftheir billions to harvest your
attention.
And who of us could resist themalone?
So we really need community.
In my book, Digital Overwhelm,I'm talking about working
community.
For other people, that might bechurch community or a school
community, it might be aneighborhood, it might be your
own household.
(08:32):
But I think more than ever,yeah, in the sort of attempt to
keep our balance in digitaloverwhelm, we really need
people.
That's a truth I'll stand by.
SPEAKER_01 (08:44):
How do you balance it, Craig?
You know, if you're coming upand you got leaders that are
coming up that are younger andthey're climbing this corporate
ladder or they're runningorganizations, or they're like
me, I'm a business owner, whereyou can't stay totally unplugged
from it because you kind of gotto be able to have a
conversation, know enough aboutit where you walk into the room,
you feel pretty intelligent as aleader.
And some of us got impostersyndrome, think we have to know
it all.
Nobody knows it all.
(09:04):
If you're listening, nobodyknows it all.
If you find that person, getaway from them.
But the reality is, how do youbalance it effectively where you
consume just enough to beeffective, but not so much that
you become distracted?
SPEAKER_00 (09:16):
I should probably ask you that question.
I'll give two ideas, and thenI'd like to hear how you've
managed to do this maybe a bitin your own experience.
Yeah.
So two ideas from me is one, usesingle-use technology as much as
you can, or maybe fewer usetechnology.
I'm talking to you on my laptopright now, and it's the
convergence of so many parts ofmy life.
(09:37):
The classes I'm teaching, theresearch I'm doing, the family
stuff I'm keeping up with.
And so recently I bought anotepad, a digital notepad, but
it really can't do anything.
I can write with it, and that'sit.
It doesn't really have any appsor anything.
And that is, you know, it costabout 400 bucks.
And I realized after I bought itthat it was really a way to buy
(09:59):
attention for myself, to buysome concentration.
So I think sometimes we can usetechnology to help us filter out
technology and get some quietfor ourselves.
Well, let me just turn thataround to you.
Like, how have you managed tofind ways to quiet down the
digital noise in your life as abusiness owner?
SPEAKER_01 (10:18):
I love that you shared, like, you know, using
technology to reduce sometechnology.
And I'll tell you for everyonethat's listening, a phenomenal
question is I intentionally onmy calendar block out quiet
times.
Like literally, if you go to mycalendar, you'll really see the
word block.
Personal time.
And I put it on there just likeI would put for this podcast, I
would put for client work andengagement.
(10:40):
And that's daily for me.
And so I get up and I work outevery morning, but I work out an
hour that no one's looking forme.
And I have a downtime, like atthe end of the day for me, I
shut down at a certain time ofthe day.
And people, I've trained peoplethat are clients and customers
and friends and relatives.
Like after this time, he's nottaking any calls, he's not on
any emails, he's not checkingany messages.
(11:01):
Like, if you want him, these arethe hours that he functions,
that he does it, because therest of the time I he needs to
recuperate and practiceself-care.
So for everyone that'slistening, I practice a lot of
self-care and it's veryintentional.
SPEAKER_00 (11:12):
Yeah, I like that.
I need to discipline myself abit more about setting aside
time actually on my Outlookcalendar, you know, like marking
it off.
I think that's a great practice,a good tactic.
Another one that comes to mindfor me for again sort of
quieting down your life is touse older technology.
So uh there's a technologycalled a pen and a technology
(11:33):
called a book.
When those first came out, youknow, the pen came out 2,400
years ago, people were prettyfreaked out about it.
Like, what is this gonna do tous?
But sometimes using an olderform of technology can help to
orient you a bit.
It can connect you to olderconventions and traditions and
customs and communities.
And I've certainly found thatwith using a physical book, you
(11:56):
know, just I know it's a littleself-serving because I write
books, so I hope people readbooks, but I think it's also
just a really good healthypractice to I think your brain
will love you if you take sometime to hold a book, even if
it's just for 15 or 20 minutes.
SPEAKER_01 (12:12):
So I get it, Craig.
I mean, for those people thatbut I will tell you like as
you're listening to us, you knowhow important it is to have a
book to slow your brain down.
Some you know, the brain is ismultifast and it does some
amazing things, but it's alsogood for brain health to slow it
down sometimes.
I kind of the analogy I wouldlove to use, Craig, is it's like
a race car driver.
(12:32):
As fast as that car is at theDaytona 500 or any race that you
may follow if you follow racecar driving, there's a pit stop
that it has to make to refreshand refuel and refit the tires
and slow.
They literally have to, ifthey're in first place, they
have to come out of the race, gointo the pit stop so they can
stay in the race.
And I think as humans, we'regonna have to figure out where's
the pit stop for us so we canstay in this thing called life.
(12:56):
Because the world is moving likethat race car, 350 miles per
hour, and it's not gonna slowdown.
And but there's a pit crew chiefthat says you must come in, you
have no option, the tires aregoing bald, your fuel is running
low, the car is running hot,you're exhausted, you need a
break, you need some thosethings that keep you in the
race.
How do you make sure you canstay in the race long term
(13:16):
versus stay in the lead all thetime?
SPEAKER_00 (13:18):
I don't know if you've heard of the author
Yurian Kamer, but he uses ananalogy very like what you're
saying.
He wrote a book calledUnblocked, which I highly
recommend.
But Kammer studied the sort ofpit stops of Formula One racers.
Yes.
And he watched the teams.
And again, I think that's areminder that we can't do this
(13:39):
alone, that those pit stops arenot just, you know, sort of
self-care.
They're also times where we needto just be with other humans in
a sort of non-performancefocused way.
I guess in a Formula One pitstop, though, that's pretty
performance focused.
So I'll have to think about thata bit more.
But I like the reminder againthat we're usually functioning
(14:00):
on some kind of team orpartnership or collaboration.
And attending to those groupdynamics is challenging today.
We work remotely so often.
We're in hybrid conditions.
So I guess I keep coming back tothis sort of group dynamics of
leadership and workingcommunity.
Yes, yes.
You have the book.
SPEAKER_01 (14:20):
I mean, you got digital overwhelm.
What were you seeing that said,I need to write this book, you
know, and then I have afollow-up question.
But what made you write thebook?
People's stories.
SPEAKER_00 (14:27):
I started having some conversations with people
who had graduated from theprogram where I was teaching,
and I was reaching out to themfive, 10 years out from their
graduation, and like I said,just asking, How are you coping?
And the stories I was hearingwere so stunning that I was
like, oh wow, there's a bookhere.
There's a set of stories here,and there's really wisdom here.
(14:48):
Some of the stories were reallypainful stories, like stories of
harassment in the workplace.
I remember talking with an in aperson who was describing her
internship.
She was now well into hercareer, but she was describing
her internship and, you know,being summoned into a back
office by her internship managerwho was inviting her to have a
drink.
(15:08):
And it was just so creepy andscary to her.
And she really didn't have thekind of leverage and power to
just be decisive in that moment.
I also heard stories that werereally encouraging.
I talked with a guy who was ateam lead.
He was a tester at a major videogame company.
And he was all about thelogistics and the process and
(15:31):
the technology involved indesigning games.
He loved it.
He was his passion.
He was a gamer himself.
So this was his dream job.
And then, yeah, I think wereconnected six months later.
And he said, Hey, my job'schanged.
And I am now working as I'mmanaging a team here.
I'm not just testing games, I'mmanaging people.
And he said that for him, alittle surprisingly, maybe, it
(15:54):
was a chance to take a deepbreath and say, okay, I've got
to do some people care here.
And that was a reallyinspirational story to me about
this guy making this shift frombeing really like task-focused
and you know, project-oriented,and then shifting towards that
sort of almost like pastoral ortherapeutic work with his team.
(16:17):
So it was those stories thatmade me want to write, Ron.
It was just hearing thosestories.
Wow.
SPEAKER_01 (16:22):
What do you hope for the people that are going to
pick it up and become readers ofwhat you've written in the
books?
What do you hope they walk awaywith?
SPEAKER_00 (16:29):
I think two things.
One is just paying attention tothe way the digital has altered
our working arrangements andjust becoming mindful of that at
all times, that, like, yeah,this is making this weird right
now.
And how do I stay human in themiddle of that weirdness?
I think being aware, beingmindful of the role of
(16:51):
technology in our everydaylives, so often it's invisible.
So often it's just sort ofsomething we're using without
thinking about.
We're just thinking about thetask.
But to sort of pull back and payattention to that, it's a little
bit like looking at yourwindshield while you're driving.
You're trying to spot a crack orsomething in your windshield,
it's a little disconcerting andit can feel strange.
(17:13):
But I think, you know, lookingat what you're usually looking
through can really be a help inthe workplace.
And then the second thing I'vealready mentioned, and that is
that I hope people can, byreading my book, cultivate more
communicational flexibility, notgetting stuck in a particular
approach to communication, butdeveloping multiple approaches,
(17:35):
multiple modes is what I callthem.
And that digital flexibility, Ithink, is one way to really help
our working communities tothrive.
SPEAKER_01 (17:45):
So, Craig, you've been in you've been in the
space, you've been in education,I learned for a while, and
you've watched it changed.
If you can share something withpeople that are watching these
different generations, and youeven mentioned another
generation, you know, as youwere speaking earlier, what
advice would you give to people?
Because I'm sure you have tomodify your teaching style, your
ability to listen, where do youlean in?
(18:06):
And it's changed over the years.
What advice do we give toleaders that are trying to
figure out how do they take careof five or six generations in
the workforce?
SPEAKER_00 (18:13):
Yeah, that's a terrifically difficult task.
I mean, every week I podcastwith an intergenerational team.
We have a boomer, Xer,millennial, and Gen Z.
And yeah, it's complicated.
There are lots of differentkinds of feelings and
perspectives in the room, evenfor a podcast where we're all
trying to do the same thing.
But I think, first of all, mysympathies to the leaders today,
like it's hard work.
(18:34):
There's a layer of labor workingwith remote teams, working with
hybrid groups that managers 30years ago would find completely
alienating or strange.
So my compassion, my sympathieswith leaders today, you're doing
important work and it's not easywork.
But I guess in some ways, Ithink I'm recapping here, Ron.
(18:55):
I think that not dismissingother generations, but saying
they're probably able to seesomething that I'm not seeing.
So the analogy that works for meis if you can imagine a
collection of concentric rows ofchairs.
So you've got a circle within acircle within a circle within a
circle until you finally havejust one chair in the middle.
(19:17):
And that's the CEO.
But as you move outward on thatcircle, you also find that the
people on the outer edges of thecircle can see things that the
people in the middle cannot.
So people who are on the marginsof our organizations, which
often is our younger folk, thejust hireds, they see things
that those of us who might becloser to the middle aren't able
(19:39):
to see.
We're sort of focused on what'sgoing on right in front of us.
But they see that and they alsosee from their perspective.
So I think not dismissing thatperspective, recognizing that it
is limited.
I mean, there are ways that theyare just very new to this whole
thing called work culture andworking community, but also
acknowledging, conceding thatthey can see things that you
(20:01):
probably can't easily see.
And um, that's I think mybiggest piece of advice and my
takeaway from doing this work.
SPEAKER_01 (20:08):
You know, one of the things that we always try to
unpack is for those people thatare in spaces that we get to
talk about on the podcast iswhat's the real practical thing
that you can do that doesn'trequire you to go get another
higher level educational degree,but just things that you can
actually do every day that youcan work that muscle and get
better at it.
Communication has changeddrastically for all of us.
Um, how we communicate, when wecommunicate, what we say, what
(20:30):
we don't say.
Some of our leaders are saying,well, people are too sensitive.
I mean, judgment, you know, um,or people are not listening, or
people are too busy, or peopledon't want to slow down.
I mean, there are a lot ofthings that we're using to label
what we see, and sometimesaccurate, sometimes inaccurate,
most times pretty ineffectivebecause people don't like to be
labeled.
How have you seen, you know, forus to be more effective, what
(20:51):
does that communication stylelook like?
Because I know you love splitplaying in the space of
communication.
SPEAKER_00 (20:56):
I think that's a $64,000 question.
So here's something I've beenthinking about lately.
I mean, just this morning,honestly, I've been thinking
about this.
There's a body of theory calledrelational frame theory.
And people who use relationalframe theory try to help other
people to become more flexiblein their thinking.
(21:19):
When I was reading that, I waslike, that's what managers are
often trying to do.
They're trying to help theirteam move from a small picture
perspective to a bigger pictureperspective.
And sometimes they need the teamto do that to them too, right?
The leaders are micromanaging orthey're obsessed on a particular
metric or something, and theyneed their team to say, hey,
look, there's a bigger picturehere.
So we all need this.
(21:40):
So I was like, yeah, how do weuse communication to move from
small picture to big picturethinking?
And there's this concept calledtracking.
And tracking is when you lookvery carefully at your context,
and then you look at what'shappening in that context and
you ask about the consequencesof that.
In other words, like Dr.
(22:00):
Phil used to ask, you ask, how'sthat working for you?
When you do this thing, what arethe consequences of it?
Because a surprising lot of usare unwilling to face the
consequences of what happenswhen we do this or that.
But I don't think as a leader ora manager, you can just tell
people, look, you're stop doingthat.
(22:22):
What you can do is to usecommunication, everyday
conversation, to help people tonotice the consequences of their
actions in a particular context.
And so that's, I think, my pieceof advice today is help people
to track what's going on byasking simple questions.
And then what happened, youknow, is a good question.
(22:44):
Or another one that I've heardis if yourself from five years
ago could look at what's goingon here, like what would that
self say?
Or if yourself from five yearsdown the road could look at your
situation now, like what wouldthey say?
Those sorts of conversationalmoves help people to like loosen
up their perspective and beginto track what's actually
(23:05):
happening in the workplace.
And I think that's one way tomove towards a big picture
perspective.
SPEAKER_01 (23:11):
I love it, Greg.
I mean, the asking of thequestions, you know, telling all
of our leaders the day ofcommand and control are telling
everybody what to do are fargone.
And whether we agree or disagreewith it, the reality is that
that's not as effective as itused to be.
That we've changed as people.
I mean, pretty brilliant andintelligent people.
So if you're telling everybodywhat to do, it's about how smart
you are.
(23:32):
But if you ask questions, justgiving them permission to be
smart and help you get it done.
So I would tell you, slow downand ask more questions.
Yeah, you know, if you're theleader that's telling everybody
everything to do all day long,yeah.
If you disappear, yourorganization's in trouble.
Yeah, that's exhausting.
Yeah, it is very exhausting.
And I think sometimes I, youknow, when I was younger, I used
(23:52):
to want to have the answer.
I felt like I had to have theanswer.
And often back in those days,you kind of had to have the
answer to get promoted.
But there was some ego that camealong with that too.
I felt good about having all theanswers, and people had to come
to me.
So you gotta kind of get overyourself too if you're gonna do
this really, really well.
Because it may feel nice, butit's not sustainable long term
for you to have all the answers.
SPEAKER_00 (24:10):
Yeah, that's good.
That's really good advice, Ron.
I like that.
It may feel nice, it may feelgood for the moment, but it
might not be working for you.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (24:20):
Yes, yes.
So, where can we find the bookat?
I mean, we've mentioned the booka couple of times, so you have
digital overwhelm, and I'm sureit's out.
Where can we find it at?
And then we'll we'll go into howdo people reach out to you, come
on your podcast, answer somequestions.
But I love to do this forbusiness development.
I love for us to have answersfor people and they can reach
out to you or me.
You know, this is a communityplatform for us to help people
(24:41):
while at the same time servingpeople.
SPEAKER_00 (24:43):
Yeah.
I'm afraid my answer is kind ofboring.
I mean, you can find this bookwherever books are sold.
I'm from Grand Rapids, so I loveSchuler books.
You can find them online.
You can also go to Amazon andfind the book.
It's called simply DigitalOverwhelm: A Mid-Career Guide
for Coping at Work.
And it examines six differentmodes of communication and looks
(25:04):
at the strengths and weaknessesof each.
So I think it's a prettypractical book, but it's also a
reflective book.
So it's not one of those kind ofairport self-helpy books.
It's a book that will help youto, I don't know, dig deep in
your own soul, in your own work.
You can find ways to connectwith me at my website,
themodeswitch.com.com.
(25:29):
And I would be so pleased.
I'm not one of those authors whonever wants to connect with a
reader.
I'm I'm absolutely delighted.
If you pick up a copy of mybook, I would be so happy to
jump on a call with you and hearhow you're experiencing it.
So thanks for facilitating thoseconnections, Ron.
I'd I'd love to connect withsome of your listeners.
SPEAKER_01 (25:48):
Yes, I love it.
And that's really what it'sabout for us being able to stay
connected to the people.
I kind of like it too.
No, you can be as smart and asbrilliant and as talented as you
wish.
If you don't have a connection,it stays with you.
So we're meant to be connectedto other human beings.
So stay connected, reach out topeople, ask questions, make
yourself accessible, andconstantly learn and figure out
who's smarter than you in theroom and who can help you in the
(26:09):
room.
That's what I've done in myentire career and still do it in
my business.
Any last-minute advice you wouldgive that you got from someone
that's still serving you welltoday?
SPEAKER_00 (26:17):
Well, you talked about being real on this
podcast, and I'll say somethingthat has been kind of a
difficult experience for me overthe years.
Just three years ago, I switchedinstitutions and I went from one
college to another, a largercollege, a university, and I was
very excited to make this move.
And I'm still happy to be atthis university very much.
But one thing I wasn't expectingwas a kind of drain on social
(26:41):
capital.
So when you're in one place fora while, you you build up some
connections and some networksand some friendships and
collegiality.
And yeah, I sort of took thatfor granted.
And I came to a new institution,and there was a whole nother
layer to the work.
And that was a work I waswilling to do, but it took quite
a lot of time, a lot of coffeeshops, a lot of shared lunches,
(27:03):
a lot of walks with people totry to build the connections
that we all so much need.
So I guess so many leaders todayare having rather short terms in
their work.
They're at an institution that'sa little bit unstable, perhaps,
and they might be there for justa couple of years.
When you do move from oneinstitution to another, and I
don't wish this on you, but ifyou do move, yeah, keep in mind
(27:26):
the important work of connectionmaking and network building and
even friendship cultivation ineach place that you work.
Wow, great.
SPEAKER_01 (27:36):
I mean, people that follow me know that you're
you're speaking my language allthe time.
So I tell people it's my socialcapital has opened up doors and
got me places and allowed me todo things that sometimes my
education wasn't the entrypoint.
It literally was social capital.
So I tell all of our leaders,you you gotta have a good social
capital.
iPhone is a phenomenal phone.
(27:56):
Shut off the Wi-Fi and allconnection, and it's just a
paperweight.
And I think oftentimes we walkin rooms with a lot of wisdom
and knowledge, but we don't havethe connection and we don't
serve the way we could servebecause we are not connected, so
we can do the work.
So no matter how talented, howgood, what your title, who you
are, where you sit at in thebuilding, your connections are
what get things done.
(28:17):
Now I still want you to beintelligent, but I don't want
you to be intelligent and notsocial.
I still want you to have theposition, but I don't want you
to be the highest rankingperson, but nobody has access to
you.
SPEAKER_00 (28:27):
Yeah, yeah, that sounds right to me too, Ron.
SPEAKER_01 (28:30):
Thanks.
Yeah, so I you're speaking mylanguage, like, man, that's
another podcast.
We need to bring it back onbecause you know that's
something that I will tell youthat for us.
I here's what I would like it tofor all our listeners, Craig.
I compare my I call itrelationship score.
I treat it just as I treat mycredit score.
Because when I want to be ableto purchase something that's
(28:51):
important to my family, I wantto be able to get it at the
lowest interest rate.
I don't want to have so I wantpeople to be willing to want to
help me purchase this big item.
What's your relationship scorewith the people that you need to
help you with?
Is it a 400 or is it 800?
Yeah, and I and I and I monitorthat daily.
SPEAKER_00 (29:07):
Yeah, that's a good metric.
That's a really good metric.
SPEAKER_01 (29:09):
I use it and it served me well.
And people, I say it's just whatI watch.
I literally watched, you know,people will pick up my when I
call them, they'll pick it upversus swipe to the left or
don't answer.
They'll respond to an email.
When I call them, they'repretty, you know, people come on
our podcast because ofrelationships.
You know, uh, I don't do itbecause of you know, phenomenal
guests like you, but I stay intouch with our guests.
SPEAKER_00 (29:28):
Thank you.
Yeah, well, that's a greatpromise.
I I look forward to staying intouch with you, Ron.
That's good to hear.
Awesome, awesome.
SPEAKER_01 (29:34):
Craig, you've been phenomenal for everyone on the
show.
I'm gonna give some contactinformation, then I'm gonna ask
Craig if there's anything hewants to close out with.
I always invite our guests toclose out the show.
So before Craig closes us out,you can always find us on our
website, Global CourseStrategies and Consulting.
Everything leadership, how doyou be sustainable?
There are plenty of ways to dothat.
And if you're interested in youknow someone that'll be a
(29:55):
phenomenal guest that has valueto add to the show, we'd love to
welcome and invite our guests tothe show.
Um, just let them know inadvance there are no questions
in advance.
This is a real conversation inreal time um with all of our
guests, and we share a lot ofvalue.
So for now, I'm gonna pause, I'mgonna hand the microphone to
Craig and let him close us out.
SPEAKER_00 (30:12):
I'm so honored.
So I guess my last word would beto keep in mind that every
organizational communicationbetween leaders and followers,
between followers and leaders,is both a task and a gift.
It's easy to see it as just atask and to forget that it's a
gift.
It's also easy to think, youknow, get sort of so wrapped up
(30:34):
in the pleasure of it or the joyof it to forget that, oh no,
we've got a shared mission here.
So keeping in mind that everydigital communication is a task
and a gift is a piece of wisdomI think your leaders can walk
with.
SPEAKER_01 (30:48):
Awesome.
Thanks, Craig.
And until next time, Craig and Iare signing off, and thank you
for joining us on Unpack withRon Harvey.
SPEAKER_02 (30:55):
Well, we hope you enjoyed this edition of Unpack
Podcast with leadershipconsultant Ron Harvey.
Remember to join us every Mondayas Ron Unpacks Sound Advice,
providing real answers for realleadership challenges.
Until next time, remember to addvalue and make a difference
where you are or the people youserve.
(31:17):
Because people always matter.
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