November 3, 2025 • 47 mins
We unpack why every human interaction is a negotiation and how preparation, not slogans, drives outcomes. Derrick Chevalier shares evolved negotiation tactics that help leaders surface hidden information, avoid self‑negotiation traps, and create value beyond the script.
• negotiation as universal human interaction
• mentor‑driven mastery and apprenticeship
• preparation as strategic advantage
• changes from technology and global dynamics
• myths of win‑win and BATNA overuse
• power negotiation and deadline dynamics
• why chess is a weak life metaphor
• leadership conversations as negotiations
• stealth negotiation and real‑time coaching
• when and how to split the difference
• reframing risk to unlock decisions
• failure as event, focus as discipline
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The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the speakers and guests and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any organization or entity. The information provided in this podcast is intended for educational and informational purposes only and should not be considered as professional advice. Listeners should consult with their own professional advisors before implementing any suggestions or recommendations made in this podcast. The speakers and guests are not responsible for any actions taken by listeners based on the information presented in this podcast. The podcast is not intended to be a substitute for professional advice or services. The speakers and guests make no representations or warranties of any kind, express or implied, about the completeness, accuracy, reliability, suitability or availability with respect to the information, products, services, or related graphics contained in this ...
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Welcome to Unpack Podcast with your host,
Leadership Consultant, RonHarvey of Global Core Strategies
and Consulting.
Ron believes that leadership isthe fundamental driver towards
making a difference.
So now, to find out more of whatit means to unpack leadership,
here's your host, Ron Harvey.
SPEAKER_01 (00:28):
Good morning, everybody.
This is Ron Harvey, the VicePresident, Chief Operating
Officer for Global CourseStrategies and Consulting.
Our firm is based out ofColumbia, South Carolina.
And we spend all of our time,honestly, to keep it really,
really direct for you, is wespend all of our time helping
leaders be better connected totheir teams so they can ensure
that they're successful.
And I know that leadership doesmake a huge difference.
So everything we do is aroundpeople, leadership,
(00:50):
conversations, trust.
You know, how do you take careof people that are counted on
you to help you be successful,you need them, and they need you
as well.
That's what we do every day.
But I pause and I always dounpack with Ron Harvey, and I
get guests from around thecountry with all different
backgrounds.
And so I'm super excited.
Today we have another phenomenalguest.
We're in the green room, andI'll let him share who he is,
(01:11):
but I want to bring Derek to theto the to the microphone and
invite him.
Welcome to the show, Derek.
I'll let you know invite you tointroduce yourself however you
wish to.
SPEAKER_02 (01:22):
Well, thank you so much.
I'm really privileged to be onthe show and Derek Chevalier.
Uh, I am executive vicepresident of Harrison Chevalier.
We are a negotiation consultingand training company, and we've
been in business for about 30years.
Uh, the last 15 years of thathas been focused on the
(01:43):
development of a brand newuniversal framework of
negotiation that we called SNUFor Evolved Negotiation.
SPEAKER_01 (01:54):
Wow, wow, yes, yes.
I I'm sure they're gonna bebecause everything is a
negotiation.
So I mean, if people don't thinkthey're negotiating, everything
is a negotiation.
So, what so so for you, as youthink about it, you've been in
it for a while.
Um let me dive into you know,unpacking, which is always we
don't know where we're gonna go,but we go we go there.
Is negotiation involved ineverything that people do?
SPEAKER_02 (02:15):
I mean, I'm making some yes, Ron, that's such a
great point.
From our perspective, everyhuman interaction involves some
type of negotiation.
The difference is that whenpeople are unaware of that, they
don't even realize that they'vebeen negotiated.
(02:36):
Because the mark of an excellentnegotiator is it is one where a
person is not necessarily evenaware that you are employing a
specific strategy or using aspecific tactic.
We like to say that if somebodyfeels like or recognizes that
(02:56):
they're being negotiated, thenthe negotiator is not very good.
Now that's separate from sittingdown at a negotiation table.
But the reality there is thatonce you're sitting down at the
table, the negotiations in manyways over.
It's already been negotiatedbefore you get there, right?
SPEAKER_01 (03:18):
Yeah, I love it.
So with everything changing,you've been in the industry for
a while.
Um you've been around, you'vehad a lot of success.
So, you know, if you want to, ifyou're listening and you want to
check him out, you know, he'sgiving you his information,
we'll share his contact as well.
You can go research, you know,all of the success he's had over
time.
Has it changed for you over theyears?
SPEAKER_02 (03:39):
Oh my God, has it changed?
Yeah, for one thing, when I geton an airplane when I started,
everybody was in a suit.
And today, today you got sandalsand bare feet on the back of
your seat.
So that's one little change, butthat's a miraculous and
wonderful thing.
So, my background, as you know,Ron, I started, uh I was on my
(04:02):
way to law school, and along theway, I was introduced to an
opportunity to become afacilitator for the Keris
negotiation uh negotiationworkshop.
And Dr.
Karis, therefore, was my mentorfor about 15 years.
I was involved with he, his son,and also uh Frank, uh, who was a
(04:25):
central part.
And they to this day are in 30countries.
So Dr.
Karis's background is very muchinvolved in transactional
negotiation.
So we're buying and selling ofgoods and services.
Now, when he started, you didnot have AI.
We were not on in a greenstudio, we were not doing that,
(04:49):
right?
They were using a mimeograph,right?
And not talking about a cellphone, you're not talking about
any of that.
So if you just look at it from atechnological standpoint, we are
moving at the speed of light.
That doesn't even count AI andall of the other dynamics that
have changed uh from a globalstandpoint.
(05:10):
We call the current economy anemerging integrated global
economy.
So you have small businessesimpacted by tariffs in China,
right?
When we grew up, uh most smallbusinesses were making their
products locally, right, orthemselves.
(05:30):
Today, a small business personis importing from all over the
world and is impacted bypolitical events that they would
not necessarily have been soimpacted by in the past.
So, from my perspective, thelandscape has changed as well.
You when I started out doingseminars, there would be 90% uh
(05:52):
men uh in the seminars over a15-year period, uh it was about
50% women.
Uh, then you have a completeconglomeration, sometimes where
you have men, you have women,you have every background and
across all the uh industries andprofessional sectors.
(06:15):
So, yes, everything has changedin that way.
Wow.
SPEAKER_01 (06:20):
I mean, you I want to unpack a lot.
I mean, you shared a lot inexplaining it.
Thank you for let me let me goback a little bit.
You mentioned that you've had amentor.
How important has it been to youand for people that are
listening to have a mentor?
And for 15 years you've had amentor to help you how important
was it for you to have a mentorto even reach the level of
success you've reached?
SPEAKER_02 (06:40):
Well, for me, it was fundamental to my to my life
because it gave me a foundation.
And I would say to millennialsand a lot of young people today,
that is one of the key thingsthat they're missing.
So a mentor today, in in in pastlives, that might have been an
(07:00):
apprenticeship, right?
So that you're learning yourcraft from someone that is a
master of that particular craft.
So for me, that's exactly I hada background in pre-law,
political science.
I was very well uh prepared togo to law school.
But in preparation for lawschool, I also had a degree in
(07:22):
theater arts and speechcommunication, uh, competitive
debate and all.
So that was the stage.
So by the time I showed up toaudition uh for the Keris
opportunity, I was in prettywell prepared.
As a matter of fact, we competedwith hundreds of people to get
three spots.
(07:43):
And I went to this audition,there are a couple hundred
people there, and Frank Mobis,who was the senior vice
president at the time, was doingthe presentation.
He goes, Well, we have threespots.
And I raised my hand and I said,Well, actually, you have two
spots.
Which tells you who I am rightaway.
(08:05):
So that actually made it muchmore difficult for me because
everybody we'll see if that'strue.
Well, okay.
So uh that was just my my habit.
It's like, wait a second, I knowI'm supposed to be doing this.
Now, at the time, also, uh, wedidn't have uh preparation.
(08:26):
We would be given a cassettetape of somebody doing a section
of his book or of the seminar uhfor a company or a public
presentation, and we were told,like, you need to go learn this.
So at the end of the day, it's a17-hour program.
So what I did theater, speech,lawback, pre-law background, I
(08:49):
took 17 hours and I put it intoa script in large uh bold type,
and I memorized that script theway I would have memorized a
play.
So that I could well I could dothat seminar today.
So when you talk aboutpreparation, uh a facilitator is
(09:10):
there to guide you, but they canonly be as effective as you are
willing to do the work and thento move beyond uh the parameters
of that uh uh of that mentor'sbackground and whatnot.
Wow, wow.
SPEAKER_01 (09:27):
So Dick, I got I I gotta you made this look real
easy, and I always apologize toour audience.
Sometimes we make it look easierthan what it really is, but you
put a lot of work in.
I mean, two key things.
You had a mentor, you raisedyour hand, and you had
confidence in yourself that hey,I'm gonna put pressure on me,
but I'm also gonna put pressureon you if I'm competing with
you.
And you write it right the work,the preparation.
(09:49):
So, so how important is forpeople that are listening, there
are no shortcuts to success.
How important is the preparationpiece?
SPEAKER_02 (09:56):
I think the preparation is everything.
Um, I I forget the golfer whosaid, the more I practice, the
the the better I get, right?
Yeah, so I think that thepreparation for learning, and
that's really this is a keything.
The people think about collegedegrees today and say, Oh, well,
(10:18):
you can't get a job because youhave a liberal arts degree and
there's no job.
The college degree was notinitially designed to get you a
job, it was designed to prepareyou to acquire skills and
mastery that would become yourpreparation.
That was to introduce you tolanguage, into food, into dance,
(10:41):
to expand your cultural horizonso that you could communicate
from people from differentbackgrounds, so that when I walk
into a room and I'm working withan engineer, I'm gonna change my
perspective in terms of how Ipresent the information because
I know that engineer is thinkingin a very specific way.
(11:05):
That would be different for alawyer or somebody working in
public policy or in politics.
Well, you have to have somefamiliarity with that playground
in order to know the rules andhave some guidelines so that you
can even get an education.
So you learn to ask specificquestions and you learn to uh
(11:31):
listen to people for not justwhat they're saying, but to
listen for what's not beingsaid, right?
Yes, yes, preparation iseverything, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (11:44):
So let me go back.
So you're in this conference andyou're going and you're you're
doing the audition, uh, whichyou put yourself in, you put
your name in the hat, and youwent back and you spent 17 hours
preparing for how long was theactual presentation.
You spent 17 hours for how longof a presentation.
SPEAKER_02 (12:00):
No, so the 17 hours we did facilitated a two-day,
eight-hour um workshop orseminar.
So that content was 17 hours ofcontent.
So over the course of two days,we were presenting essentially
the content from his book.
(12:21):
We were also facilitating uhexercises, interactive
exercises, QA.
So, what what I'm saying is thatI spent 17 hours memorizing 17
hours worth of content so that Icould then now the the value of
that was, for instance, at onepoint, you know, I was always in
(12:46):
a love-hate relationship withChet.
He loved me, but I was alwayspushing the boundary.
So there'd be a few times whenhe kind of set me up, right?
So uh at one point there was anopportunity to do a seminar for
about 500 people, and I said,Great, you know, I'm the yeah,
and he goes, You can you can'thandle 500 people.
(13:08):
I said, I'm pretty sure I can't,because of course we were paid
on parsley in that.
And he said, No, I don't, I Ithink we better split it up
because I would also go offscript, depending who was on the
room, right?
And they wanted me to stay tothat script.
So uh he said, Well, no, you I'mgonna have two people doing this
(13:30):
seminar, 250 in one room, 250 inanother room.
You guys need to start and stopat the same time and make sure
that you do it by the book.
So I was scared to death becauseI knew I always went off script,
but we know I was being watched.
I'm thinking about this, but Istill went off script to serve
(13:53):
the people that were in theroom, that the makeup of that
particular group.
So I actually got done a littlebit before lunch, and I walked
over and I watched the otherpresenter.
Well, just before lunch,somebody from the company raised
their hand.
They said, Yeah, it looks like,you know, I understand you have
a program to do and that you'reproviding us with specific
(14:15):
information.
But what we're interested in ishow would you address this
particular issue in ourparticular industry?
And the facilitator who wasquite good, said, Well, Dr.
Karis is an expert in his field,and we'll get to that.
But the person said, Well, yeah,could you just give me an idea
(14:37):
of how the content matches withthis particular challenge that
we're facing in the companythat's important for us?
And she said, Well, I want tosay again, Dr.
Karis knows what he's doing, andit's in the book, and we'll be
getting to that.
So they went to lunch, all 500people, and that's where they're
(14:58):
talking.
Well, after lunch, there arefour, there were like 350 people
in my seminar.
And so I continue to go offscript.
So at one point, I find that Ithat was that background that
would allow me to start and stopand be able to pick up the
(15:21):
content, but also to tailor itto a specific industry or
profession because I also,beyond that, went off and then
became a student of negotiation.
So I went all the way back toSun Tzu, and and that's how
evolved negotiation was born.
I went back to Sun Tzu after 15years with Dr.
(15:44):
Kieris.
I studied and I asked thisquestion: what is the same in
negotiation today as it was uhin Sun Tzu's time and all the
way going all the way back tothe Holy Bible?
And now, what is differentbecause of technology, because
of politics, geography?
And I wanted to create anegotiation framework that could
(16:08):
be universally applied.
Now, I would argue that if yougo all the way back to that
first audition, when I said,Yeah, you you got two, that was
a little arrogant, but and butit also uh uh put attention
because now everybody waslooking for me to fail, right?
(16:30):
Yes, uh, including, you know,they're like, oh, we'll make
sure this guy doesn't get.
But then they look back andthey're saying, like, okay,
well, here's the preparation,here's the background.
Now 15 years.
So today, when I begandeveloping evolved negotiation,
I could have worked in all thestates of the United States,
(16:52):
Mexico, all the provinces ofCanada, Africa, and many other
spots around the world.
So there are very few placesthat I can go into where I don't
know how to do the homework anddo the preparation.
And there are many things thatare the same across all
industries.
(17:12):
Two plus two is four in anyenvironment.
So by utilizing universalprinciples, which was going all
the way back to the Sun Tzu, Iwas looking at how negotiation
impacts divorce, impactsmarriage, impacts any type of a
widget, politics, history, uh,geography, politics, and
(17:38):
negotiation is a tantamount toall of that.
And in a specific way, many ofus just think of negotiation as
being transactional.
And that's one of the missionsI'm on to tell people that
negotiation is really a form ofhuman interaction.
The issue is just what tools areyou using to come to it, right?
(18:02):
So if you're only using yourbackground and experience, you
have a lot of people thatmistake experience for knowledge
and skill, right?
So, experience, and I'll havepeople come to me and say, Well,
I've been doing this for 25years, Derek.
And so, well, what's thefoundation that you built that
on?
Well, you know, did you take acourse?
(18:25):
Have you extended your say?
Well, no, I've been doing it for25 years.
And my question to them is ifyou didn't have, and don't
because everybody will say,Well, I read that book, and I'm
my first question is, well, whatare the top three tenets you
learned from that book?
Uh uh uh so, in other words, youdidn't read the book.
What you did is turn the pages,right?
(18:47):
So let's get past that.
Now you have 25 years ofexperience.
So, how does your experienceinform your knowledge?
Well, your knowledge is basedupon your experience, and your
experience is not based on anytype of foundation.
So you don't know if you've beendoing something wrong for 25
(19:08):
years, but you didn't know it.
So people will say, Well, I'mvery successful.
And I would say, yes, but halfof the success you might have
had, you left on the table anddon't even know it because you
had no wall upon which to bouncethat ball to say, How did I
(19:28):
determine how well I did?
Right.
And then you get people intowin-win negotiation, which we
think is a misnomer.
Uh, I say, yeah, win-win people.
And we asked last year almost amillion people, professionals
across all kinds of areas, howdo you determine if an outcome
(19:50):
was win-win?
Well, the vast majority ofpeople say, well, I feel good
about the outcome.
Or uh, I not neither of us goteverything we wanted.
But the biggest thing, I feelgood about it.
And my response to that is,yeah, people often feel good and
at the end of a win-winnegotiation, generally because
(20:13):
somebody got screwed.
But can you say that?
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, just in case.
I've uh man, yes, you know, soyeah, so you have a misnomer
like that, right?
SPEAKER_01 (20:30):
How do you how do you dare?
I mean, phenomenal, a lot ofgreat information, but you're
exactly right in the art ofnegotiation, preparation, do
your homework, and everybody hasthe power to do that, right?
When you get to a place andeverything's being negotiated,
how do you help?
Because the world is changingfast, careers, jobs, small
businesses, politics, churches,schools, budget, everything's on
(20:54):
negotiation.
How do you who blinks first?
That used to be it like whoblinks first, usually, or who's
who what's the biggest mistakeyou think we make when we are
negotiating?
SPEAKER_02 (21:06):
Well, you brought up two things, and that is a a
principle.
He or she who blinks firstloses.
Let's just put that in apolitical context, uh, because
that is a fundamentalfundamental point.
We also are witnessing right nowfrom a political geopolitical
(21:26):
perspective, we are having anopportunity to watch what we
would describe as a powernegotiator uh in full-blown
color.
So a power negotiator from theuh evolved perspective is one
who does very well when theyhave more resources, more time,
(21:48):
and less to lose than theircounterpart.
Well, and so if they'renegotiating with people in
courtrooms and threatening tokeep them in court for seven
years because they have themoney to do it, and they're
negotiating with someone thatdoes not, let's take contractors
who are not paid on large moteluh hotels and resorts.
(22:13):
Well, did they ever get paid?
No, because they didn't have theresources to stay in court for
seven years.
So you would call that asuccessful negotiation.
Well, it was a power outcome.
So a power negotiator threatensuh and raises the stakes, let's
(22:33):
just say, to 145%.
Now, people can go to my websiteand see that I wrote an article
and I said in 2016, I describedour president as a power
negotiator who does well whenhe's negotiating against people
where he has more power, moreskill, and less to lose.
(22:55):
I also predicted that in apolitical realm he would not do
well, especially not againstpeople that look at millennia.
You're talking about China andRussia that look at millennia.
And in negotiations, sometimeswe used to used to say, well,
Americans show up and they booka three-day, because we're
(23:18):
negotiating three days.
The Chinese show up, they gotthe whole hotel booked out for
the next six months.
And then when they walk in, youwalk in to check in, you say,
Yeah, I'm checking in.
They know you're checking in.
How long you stay in four days,they know you stay in four days.
The negotiation is not startingtill three days and three and a
(23:40):
half days into the exchange.
You're not even negotiatingbecause they're gonna slam you
against that consequences of uha deadline.
So they're not negotiating untilthe end.
I think we just saw that happen.
So so you just saw that somebodywho's a power negotiator raise a
(24:02):
stake, and then when it startsseeing the consequences in the
stock market and from apolitical realm, suddenly we're
gonna have a 90-day.
And now what you have are peoplerunning around saying uh that we
have a win-win outcome becausethe Chinese came to the
negotiating table.
Well, factually speaking, wherewe are right now, we were at a
(24:26):
two and a half percent uh at thein January from the from the uh
tariff standpoint.
We're now at 27.
So just how win-win was it, andwho was it win-win for?
You know, so it the politics ofthat.
Now, the good thing uh for theadministration is that most
(24:46):
people don't know any of this,they're not thinking about it.
It looks like a victory.
We got a 90-day pause.
Okay, we got a 90-day pausebecause people start talking
about you can have$10 instead of$20 or whatever that was.
And then people start saying,Well, we might not have any
dolls, because it takes four orfive months for those dolls to
(25:09):
get across the oh shit.
So when you start really saying,uh-oh, what is it gonna look
like when there's no Christmasand and businesses are going
out?
So why did they blink?
Because the deadline waslooming, because the
consequences for you could havepredicted, I did, not only in
2016, but in a recent article.
(25:32):
It's not magic, you're justlooking at the tea leaves and
moving the pieces.
Uh, I'll I'll say this too.
A lot of people use chess uh asa metaphor for negotiation.
Now, we I used to use chess, andthere are some elements of chess
that make make it a goodmetaphor, but through the
(25:54):
evolved negotiation framework,we would suggest to you that
wait a second.
So, in chess, some things arealways the same.
Right now, there's only been twochanges in chess in 400 years,
but every board is eight downand eight across.
Now, why is chess good?
(26:15):
Because in chess, there's thesame pieces, they're shaped
different, cult that's torepresent cultures and all of
that.
It may be made out of somethingdifferent, but it's eight down,
eight across.
Now, where does chess differfrom life or negotiation in
life?
In chess, when we sit down, weboth know what the rules are.
(26:38):
We also know the limitations ofevery player on that board.
We know that a rook cannot godiagonally all the way across
the board.
We know that a pawn cannot goall the way across the board.
We know those are thelimitations.
Now, that's the end of thecomparison of chess in business
(26:59):
and in life.
Because in business and in life,we don't know who we're
negotiating with, and the pawnmay actually be the queen or the
king.
And at any time, those roles canchange.
So if you're still thinkingchess, and we have that
happening right now, we havepeople that are trained playing
(27:21):
chess against people who aregoing to move the ball and move
the negotiators left and rightat any given time, which
completely undoes the the intentthat I have that oh, I was
planning for you to move yourpawn and you change the pawn out
(27:44):
for a queen.
Uh-oh, I lose.
That's it.
And then we say, well, it'syeah, let's say it was win-win,
so I look good.
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (27:54):
Wow.
How much as you think aboutnegotiations and you think
about, you know, thank you forsharing what you've shared so
far.
How does it play into aleadership?
We spend a lot of time helpingleaders be adaptable, flexible,
communicating effectively.
How much does negotiation play apart in being an effective
leader?
SPEAKER_02 (28:14):
Absolutely everything.
And that's what a lot of theprofessional CEOs, CFOs, and
whatnot that I work with, that'swhat they discovered.
That they don't necessarily seetheir interactions with their
board, for instance, as anegotiation.
Now, from I find that difficultto believe, but but that's
because of my background.
(28:36):
Uh, they don't necessarily seethe relationship with their
employees as a negotiation, andyet it is.
So, one of the things we dosomething called uh stealth
negotiation.
So I will have a teamnegotiating, let's say, in
procurement in China, and that'scoming up soon.
(28:58):
They'll be sitting in China at atable in a room.
Now, what's gonna happen issomebody's gonna walk in and
say, you know what, Ron couldn'tmake it on site, so we're gonna
call in, and somebody's gonnadial up the phone and call in.
Now, the person on the phone isme.
So while I'm listening to thatnegotiation, I am texting
(29:21):
insight.
I'm saying this uh identifying aspecific tactic, I'm suggesting
where they should be sitting,I'm suggesting when they should
be taking the break and leavingit, walking in, walking out, and
then reminding people of thecontent from our previous
discussion.
So, right at a point when oneperson might be thinking, gee,
(29:46):
they're ready to do a deal.
We might take a caucus and walkout of the room.
Then when we come back in, welose everything that we learned
in that session to recalibrateour.
Strategy.
And I'll say this too.
The two big things that areimportant.
(30:06):
Number one, every form ofnegotiation right now, the Keras
form, uh, getting to yes, whichI call the Harvard form, and
certainly the knockoff neversplit the difference.
On all of those, they focus onnegotiating with yourself.
(30:27):
And people don't realize it.
Here's how take the bestalternative to a negotiated
agreement.
Who is creating the bestalternative?
Who's deciding what they need toget before they go into the
room?
Who's saying to themselves,well, if we can't get X and all
else fails, we can always uhfall back on our best
(30:51):
alternative to negotiating.
Now, if you take it from aquantitative standpoint, who are
you actually negotiating with?
I set my BATNA, you set yourBatna, we walk into a room and
then try to figure out whetheror not what you're offering me
is better than my bestalternative.
(31:13):
Entire negotiation takes place,and neither of them realizes
they have done an excellent jobof negotiating with themselves.
Wow.
That's the focus of negotiating.
Now, in a an evolved negotiatorisn't interested in their own
opinion, background, or whatthey want.
Why?
I know what I want.
(31:33):
I know what my limitations are,I know who was on my team.
I was on the calls as we preppedfor that negotiation.
What I'm interested in is whatis Ron not telling me.
I'm not even interested in whatyou told me.
Because I know you that that'sonly half of what I don't even
know if the people in the roomare the people who came up with
(31:57):
the information that youprovided me.
So my entire focus is in findingout how do I get Ron to share
with me what he has beenunwilling to share with me.
So the entire first preliminaryparts of the negotiation are
only calibrating how much is Ronis willing to share today that
(32:21):
he had not shared previously,about who was in the room, about
the data, where the data camefrom, what is actually risk are.
Now, if Ron says, Well, Derek, Ican't share with you, that's
proprietary.
I say, Well, I'll tell you, Ron,um, let me share some
proprietary information withyou.
(32:44):
So I might give you some pieceof proprietary information that
I had not previously shared withyou.
Why am I doing that?
Because now I want to see, doesRon take that proprietary
information and use it to buryme?
Or does Ron say, well, if you'rewilling to give me that, I'm
willing to give you this.
(33:06):
Now we begin to see how large wecan make that circle of shared
information.
So at the point that Ron says,Look, there, I cannot tell you
any, it's a statutory thing.
I can't tell you anything else.
That's when the negotiationbegins.
Because now we have all theshared information that we're
(33:29):
willing to give up on the table.
Now I can measure what I thoughtI wanted against what's in that
circle, but I'll tell you99.99.9 times, based on what you
shared with me that I didn'tknow before I walked in the
room, the Batna that I walked inthere with is no longer valid.
(33:53):
So my entire perspective is thisif the outcome of a negotiation
matches what you thought youwanted it to be before you
walked in the room, youdefinitely got screwed.
Or you aimed too low, right?
And and by contrast, of a Kerisrule, for instance, is uh one of
(34:16):
the Keris rules is aim high.
And you see that in 145%.
But somebody didn't read theother part of that rule, which
was don't be ridiculous.
So I would share with you, forinstance, you take uh uh the
most popular book right now onnegotiation, Chris Voss's never
(34:36):
split the difference.
Two things.
Um, never split the differencewas borrowed from Dr.
Karis's book, The NegotiatingGame, because his rule three is
don't split the difference.
So you got 40 years later,somebody goes, I know, let's
improve that.
Never split the difference.
(34:58):
Now I spent 15 years teachingthat rule, but over the period
of 15 years, I ran intosituations where I thought this
doesn't make any sense.
And that is became part of theevolved framework.
Now, why does it not make anysense to teach someone don't
split the difference or neversplit the difference?
(35:19):
Simple.
If I teach you never to dosomething, I have inadvertently
taught you to fail in anysituation where what I told you
never to do is exactly the thingthat would create an outcome
versus perhaps nuclear war.
Like, are we willing to splitthe difference?
(35:40):
Uh it's like it's nuclear war orsplit the difference.
Are you still stuck on neversplit the difference?
So we don't teach people that weteach people when to split the
difference, how to split thedifference, whether and uh uh
they should should actuallyrecalibrate what that difference
is.
But we're not gonna peach peoplebecause one of our rules is
(36:03):
you've got to know when to be acook, where you can you know
trade out ingredients andtemperatures and that, when to
be a baker.
Now, if you you mess up on abaking recipe, go too far
astray, you got a lemon poundcake that looks like a brick,
right?
And then right, so you got toknow when to be a cook and when
(36:28):
to be a baker and when to throwthe rules out all together.
But our objective is to createan outcome that we did not see
as possible when we walked intothe room because we didn't
understand that board, we didn'tunderstand the players, we
didn't understand all of thosethings that we spent our time
(36:50):
discovering.
Now, let's say that Ron says,I'm not giving you any more
information, I can't, it'sproprietary.
And absolutely, though I try andtry, or though I work to get it
done, you say what's on thetable, take it or leave it.
That was Dr.
Karis's seven second book.
(37:11):
Take it or leave it.
Okay, let's take it or leave it.
So now, what you've now donethen is declare war because your
position is what dictated theactual mode of negotiation.
If it's take it or leave it,then we are at war.
(37:31):
And we are in the mostcompetitive element right then.
So now I'm not worried about thesurvivors.
And my intent at that point isnot to be benevolent.
My intent at that point is tomake you pay for the
unwillingness.
You put them in a position oftake it or leave it.
(37:53):
I'm in the same, I might as wellgive it up and fall on my own
sword, because the alternativeis that you're gonna beat me up.
So now I'm defending my life ormy country's life.
So, from a political standpoint,whether it's in a corporation or
a mom and pop shop, uh, that's adifferent thing.
And those are very different, ofcourse.
(38:15):
I recently working with a smallbusiness person who was
inheriting a business from hisfather.
And when he called, he said, Idon't know if you can help me,
but I I gotta go work atMcDonald's.
I cannot work for my fatheranymore.
And I we had a discussion, andhe said, Listen, my dad built
this business, and he's both I'msupposed to be president, but my
(38:37):
dad is in there every fiveminutes and doesn't respect my
decisions.
And he said, Well, there'snothing you can do in
negotiation about that.
And I said, Well, the answer isI don't know if I can do
something or not, but let's havea conversation.
And I will tell you this today,six weeks later, his father
handed him the keys not to one,but to two of the businesses,
(39:01):
and it had nothing to do withthe business, it had to do with
the his father's perception ofthe risk involved in giving
those keys up.
But when we recalibrated theidea to say that you can keep
the keys and keep your fingersin the business and lose your
(39:21):
son, which is going to be aproblem for you and your wife,
because your wife is on ourteam, right?
Now, I didn't know his momdirectly, but through our
conversations, I said, Is yourmom on his team or your team?
He said, She's definitely on histeam.
I said, You don't know yourmother.
(39:42):
No, your mother knows yourfather, you're her son.
I guarantee you, she's on yourteam.
And ultimately, who do you thinkwas like, Listen, would you like
to remain married?
Uh, because you you you canchoose otherwise and not give
him the keys, or you give up thekeys and we go on vacation
(40:02):
because you've been had to callhim in it.
So you now he started thinking,well, we can never do that.
Well, yeah, but you can never doit because you didn't have the
skill to do it.
Yes, and then ultimately you hadto have the courage to pull that
trigger when the time came, butultimately that is the skill
(40:24):
that's involved, and that's whya mentor is important, that's
why having a background isimportant, and that's why also
uh not being afraid to fail is avery important.
And I'll tell one quickanecdote.
You know, Zig Ziglar was a heroof mine.
Um, I said to Zig one time, I Isaid, you know, I'm failing in
(40:50):
my career.
And he said, wait a minute.
I he said, why?
I said, Well, I don't think Ihave enough time to get this
done.
I'm doing all these things, I'mfailing.
And the first thing he said tome, he said, Well, I'll tell
you, God didn't make no flops.
So secondly, he said, now what'sthis about?
(41:11):
You don't have enough time.
And I said, Well, I don't haveenough time to do everything I
need to do.
He said, Well, I got somethingto tell you.
I said, What?
He said, You're not thatimportant.
I said, What do you mean I'm notthat important?
He said, God didn't give you 23hours a day and give everybody
else 24.
(41:32):
Everybody gets 24 hours in aday.
So it's not that you don't haveenough time, you don't have
enough focus in terms of howyou're making the decisions
about what you do with yourtime.
So you didn't flop and you'rehaving failure.
And then he said the last thing,he said, Derek, by the way, I
(41:53):
say he's on that failure thing.
He said, failure is an event,it's not a person, failure is an
event.
So what I understood, failure isan event in my life, it is not
my person.
So I separate the failure, whichincreases my capacity and
(42:14):
interest in willingness to takea risk.
And believe me, I have had totake a few risks in my life.
SPEAKER_01 (42:23):
Wow.
Phenomenal information.
And I'm sure people arelistening, and and we can have
this conversation for for muchlonger.
But you're you're running aprogram, and I want to figure
out you know, people that arethat are negotiations isn't
everything, it's in leadership,it's communications, their
relationships, dealing with yourkids, you know, dealing with
your community, buying a house,buying a car.
Negotiations are all over.
How do people reach you?
(42:43):
Um, and what's the best way forthem to make contact with you
too?
You know, you got a program thatyou're running, but also you
share a lot of greatinformation.
So as we begin to write down,reach you.
SPEAKER_02 (42:52):
Yeah, no, no, no.
As we do, I appreciate that somuch.
Well, first of all, you prettymuch go on the internet and
stick my name, and you're gonnafind articles in that.
But I would definitely askpeople to take a look at the
LinkedIn profile.
We also have a Facebook page aswell as uh um uh Instagram, so
you can find us there or ourwebsite, which is just h-c.com.
(43:16):
But I would really encouragepeople who are interested in the
topic.
We've got a number onebestselling book uh called
Evolve or Be SlaughteredNegotiation for the 21st
Century.
That's a number one bestselleron Amazon, and it's looking like
it may end up on New Yorkbestseller uh in the near future
here, too.
Um, but I also have uh somethingelse like to offer your
(43:40):
audience.
We offer a no BS 30-minute uhno-cost consultation, have a
conversation.
So you can go on our website andit just says set up a no-cost
introductory call, and that's 30minutes.
I'm not gonna sell you anything,we're gonna have a conversation.
(44:01):
Maybe you have a question abouta specific thing that you're
dealing with.
If we can, we're gonna providesome action steps.
I'm probably gonna say be a goodidea to buy the book.
I might say that.
But other than that, theopportunity for that is just to
have a conversation thateducates me uh and and helps me
(44:26):
continue to learn how to adaptand use specific principles.
But also the greatest referralin the world that I can get is
that I have a conversation withsomeone who says, What about
this or what about that?
Can provide some action steps.
And they call me back up andthey'll say, Well, thank you for
(44:47):
that.
You know, I didn't get exactlywhat I wanted, which is what you
said, but I did move the needleand things changed.
And then the next thing it mightbe six months later, somebody
will call and say, Hey, I talkedto you know, John or Mary five
or six years ago, and we'd liketo do some consulting with you.
(45:08):
So rather than selling people,I'd rather interact with people,
and be educated by and work withpeople, and let's find out what
we can do.
Because at the end of the day,I'm old, and I want to give away
as much as I can give away inthe time that I have to give it
away and talk to as many peopleas I can.
(45:31):
And so I invite people to dothat.
SPEAKER_01 (45:34):
Wow.
Thanks.
Derek, you've been phenomenal.
I mean, shared a lot ofinformation and wisdom, gave all
your contact information, has 30minutes.
So please take advantage ofthat.
Those 30 minutes, um, you know,negotiation is in everything.
There's nothing, I tell people,there's nothing that happens
without a negotiation happening.
Now, whether you know you're init or not, it's a different
thing, but nothing happenswithout negotiating.
(45:54):
And for all you that arelistening, you know, uh follow
unpack, you know, with RonHarvey.
We release an episode everysingle Monday.
Um, we're we're happy to help,we're happy to answer questions,
and we're happy to put you incontact with anybody that comes
on our show.
You know, so for now, Derek andI want to tell you thank you.
We appreciate you know, all ofyou following, we appreciate you
being on Derek.
But until next time, Derek and Iwill sign off and tell you have
a great day, and we hope thatyou got something that's gonna
(46:17):
make a difference in your life.
Any last minute you want toshare anything before we drop
off, uh, Derek?
SPEAKER_02 (46:21):
I want to say thank you so much for the privilege of
having me on the show, and I'llbe continuing to listen, and I'm
gonna try to negotiate you intohaving me back in the future.
Did you see that?
Thank you so much.
A great privilege, Ron.
SPEAKER_01 (46:38):
Thank you.
So you don't have to move in,you don't have to move in, you
don't have to put a queen on thetable.
You're good.
I enjoy it.
So uh I would definitely love tohave you back.
So we'll be negotiating whatthat date looks like for both of
us.
I really appreciate it.
And for everyone else, hey,reach out to us.
We're both business owners.
We hope we share something foryou as a business owner,
(46:58):
entrepreneur, or in corporateAmerica that makes you better.
SPEAKER_00 (47:02):
Well, we hope you enjoy this edition of Unpack
Podcast with leadershipconsultant Ron Harvey.
Remember to join us every Mondayas Ron Unpacks Sound Advice,
providing real answers for realleadership challenges.
Until next time, remember to addvalue and make a difference
where you are or the people youserve.
(47:24):
Because people always matter.
Welcome to Unpack Podcast with your host,
Leadership Consultant, RonHarvey of Global Core Strategies
and Consulting.
Ron believes that leadership isthe fundamental driver towards
making a difference.
So now, to find out more of whatit means to unpack leadership,
here's your host, Ron Harvey.
SPEAKER_01 (00:28):
Good morning, everybody.
This is Ron Harvey, the VicePresident, Chief Operating
Officer for Global CourseStrategies and Consulting.
Our firm is based out ofColumbia, South Carolina.
And we spend all of our time,honestly, to keep it really,
really direct for you, is wespend all of our time helping
leaders be better connected totheir teams so they can ensure
that they're successful.
And I know that leadership doesmake a huge difference.
So everything we do is aroundpeople, leadership,
(00:50):
conversations, trust.
You know, how do you take careof people that are counted on
you to help you be successful,you need them, and they need you
as well.
That's what we do every day.
But I pause and I always dounpack with Ron Harvey, and I
get guests from around thecountry with all different
backgrounds.
And so I'm super excited.
Today we have another phenomenalguest.
We're in the green room, andI'll let him share who he is,
(01:11):
but I want to bring Derek to theto the to the microphone and
invite him.
Welcome to the show, Derek.
I'll let you know invite you tointroduce yourself however you
wish to.
SPEAKER_02 (01:22):
Well, thank you so much.
I'm really privileged to be onthe show and Derek Chevalier.
Uh, I am executive vicepresident of Harrison Chevalier.
We are a negotiation consultingand training company, and we've
been in business for about 30years.
Uh, the last 15 years of thathas been focused on the
(01:43):
development of a brand newuniversal framework of
negotiation that we called SNUFor Evolved Negotiation.
SPEAKER_01 (01:54):
Wow, wow, yes, yes.
I I'm sure they're gonna bebecause everything is a
negotiation.
So I mean, if people don't thinkthey're negotiating, everything
is a negotiation.
So, what so so for you, as youthink about it, you've been in
it for a while.
Um let me dive into you know,unpacking, which is always we
don't know where we're gonna go,but we go we go there.
Is negotiation involved ineverything that people do?
SPEAKER_02 (02:15):
I mean, I'm making some yes, Ron, that's such a
great point.
From our perspective, everyhuman interaction involves some
type of negotiation.
The difference is that whenpeople are unaware of that, they
don't even realize that they'vebeen negotiated.
(02:36):
Because the mark of an excellentnegotiator is it is one where a
person is not necessarily evenaware that you are employing a
specific strategy or using aspecific tactic.
We like to say that if somebodyfeels like or recognizes that
(02:56):
they're being negotiated, thenthe negotiator is not very good.
Now that's separate from sittingdown at a negotiation table.
But the reality there is thatonce you're sitting down at the
table, the negotiations in manyways over.
It's already been negotiatedbefore you get there, right?
SPEAKER_01 (03:18):
Yeah, I love it.
So with everything changing,you've been in the industry for
a while.
Um you've been around, you'vehad a lot of success.
So, you know, if you want to, ifyou're listening and you want to
check him out, you know, he'sgiving you his information,
we'll share his contact as well.
You can go research, you know,all of the success he's had over
time.
Has it changed for you over theyears?
SPEAKER_02 (03:39):
Oh my God, has it changed?
Yeah, for one thing, when I geton an airplane when I started,
everybody was in a suit.
And today, today you got sandalsand bare feet on the back of
your seat.
So that's one little change, butthat's a miraculous and
wonderful thing.
So, my background, as you know,Ron, I started, uh I was on my
(04:02):
way to law school, and along theway, I was introduced to an
opportunity to become afacilitator for the Keris
negotiation uh negotiationworkshop.
And Dr.
Karis, therefore, was my mentorfor about 15 years.
I was involved with he, his son,and also uh Frank, uh, who was a
(04:25):
central part.
And they to this day are in 30countries.
So Dr.
Karis's background is very muchinvolved in transactional
negotiation.
So we're buying and selling ofgoods and services.
Now, when he started, you didnot have AI.
We were not on in a greenstudio, we were not doing that,
(04:49):
right?
They were using a mimeograph,right?
And not talking about a cellphone, you're not talking about
any of that.
So if you just look at it from atechnological standpoint, we are
moving at the speed of light.
That doesn't even count AI andall of the other dynamics that
have changed uh from a globalstandpoint.
(05:10):
We call the current economy anemerging integrated global
economy.
So you have small businessesimpacted by tariffs in China,
right?
When we grew up, uh most smallbusinesses were making their
products locally, right, orthemselves.
(05:30):
Today, a small business personis importing from all over the
world and is impacted bypolitical events that they would
not necessarily have been soimpacted by in the past.
So, from my perspective, thelandscape has changed as well.
You when I started out doingseminars, there would be 90% uh
(05:52):
men uh in the seminars over a15-year period, uh it was about
50% women.
Uh, then you have a completeconglomeration, sometimes where
you have men, you have women,you have every background and
across all the uh industries andprofessional sectors.
(06:15):
So, yes, everything has changedin that way.
Wow.
SPEAKER_01 (06:20):
I mean, you I want to unpack a lot.
I mean, you shared a lot inexplaining it.
Thank you for let me let me goback a little bit.
You mentioned that you've had amentor.
How important has it been to youand for people that are
listening to have a mentor?
And for 15 years you've had amentor to help you how important
was it for you to have a mentorto even reach the level of
success you've reached?
SPEAKER_02 (06:40):
Well, for me, it was fundamental to my to my life
because it gave me a foundation.
And I would say to millennialsand a lot of young people today,
that is one of the key thingsthat they're missing.
So a mentor today, in in in pastlives, that might have been an
(07:00):
apprenticeship, right?
So that you're learning yourcraft from someone that is a
master of that particular craft.
So for me, that's exactly I hada background in pre-law,
political science.
I was very well uh prepared togo to law school.
But in preparation for lawschool, I also had a degree in
(07:22):
theater arts and speechcommunication, uh, competitive
debate and all.
So that was the stage.
So by the time I showed up toaudition uh for the Keris
opportunity, I was in prettywell prepared.
As a matter of fact, we competedwith hundreds of people to get
three spots.
(07:43):
And I went to this audition,there are a couple hundred
people there, and Frank Mobis,who was the senior vice
president at the time, was doingthe presentation.
He goes, Well, we have threespots.
And I raised my hand and I said,Well, actually, you have two
spots.
Which tells you who I am rightaway.
(08:05):
So that actually made it muchmore difficult for me because
everybody we'll see if that'strue.
Well, okay.
So uh that was just my my habit.
It's like, wait a second, I knowI'm supposed to be doing this.
Now, at the time, also, uh, wedidn't have uh preparation.
(08:26):
We would be given a cassettetape of somebody doing a section
of his book or of the seminar uhfor a company or a public
presentation, and we were told,like, you need to go learn this.
So at the end of the day, it's a17-hour program.
So what I did theater, speech,lawback, pre-law background, I
(08:49):
took 17 hours and I put it intoa script in large uh bold type,
and I memorized that script theway I would have memorized a
play.
So that I could well I could dothat seminar today.
So when you talk aboutpreparation, uh a facilitator is
(09:10):
there to guide you, but they canonly be as effective as you are
willing to do the work and thento move beyond uh the parameters
of that uh uh of that mentor'sbackground and whatnot.
Wow, wow.
SPEAKER_01 (09:27):
So Dick, I got I I gotta you made this look real
easy, and I always apologize toour audience.
Sometimes we make it look easierthan what it really is, but you
put a lot of work in.
I mean, two key things.
You had a mentor, you raisedyour hand, and you had
confidence in yourself that hey,I'm gonna put pressure on me,
but I'm also gonna put pressureon you if I'm competing with
you.
And you write it right the work,the preparation.
(09:49):
So, so how important is forpeople that are listening, there
are no shortcuts to success.
How important is the preparationpiece?
SPEAKER_02 (09:56):
I think the preparation is everything.
Um, I I forget the golfer whosaid, the more I practice, the
the the better I get, right?
Yeah, so I think that thepreparation for learning, and
that's really this is a keything.
The people think about collegedegrees today and say, Oh, well,
(10:18):
you can't get a job because youhave a liberal arts degree and
there's no job.
The college degree was notinitially designed to get you a
job, it was designed to prepareyou to acquire skills and
mastery that would become yourpreparation.
That was to introduce you tolanguage, into food, into dance,
(10:41):
to expand your cultural horizonso that you could communicate
from people from differentbackgrounds, so that when I walk
into a room and I'm working withan engineer, I'm gonna change my
perspective in terms of how Ipresent the information because
I know that engineer is thinkingin a very specific way.
(11:05):
That would be different for alawyer or somebody working in
public policy or in politics.
Well, you have to have somefamiliarity with that playground
in order to know the rules andhave some guidelines so that you
can even get an education.
So you learn to ask specificquestions and you learn to uh
(11:31):
listen to people for not justwhat they're saying, but to
listen for what's not beingsaid, right?
Yes, yes, preparation iseverything, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (11:44):
So let me go back.
So you're in this conference andyou're going and you're you're
doing the audition, uh, whichyou put yourself in, you put
your name in the hat, and youwent back and you spent 17 hours
preparing for how long was theactual presentation.
You spent 17 hours for how longof a presentation.
SPEAKER_02 (12:00):
No, so the 17 hours we did facilitated a two-day,
eight-hour um workshop orseminar.
So that content was 17 hours ofcontent.
So over the course of two days,we were presenting essentially
the content from his book.
(12:21):
We were also facilitating uhexercises, interactive
exercises, QA.
So, what what I'm saying is thatI spent 17 hours memorizing 17
hours worth of content so that Icould then now the the value of
that was, for instance, at onepoint, you know, I was always in
(12:46):
a love-hate relationship withChet.
He loved me, but I was alwayspushing the boundary.
So there'd be a few times whenhe kind of set me up, right?
So uh at one point there was anopportunity to do a seminar for
about 500 people, and I said,Great, you know, I'm the yeah,
and he goes, You can you can'thandle 500 people.
(13:08):
I said, I'm pretty sure I can't,because of course we were paid
on parsley in that.
And he said, No, I don't, I Ithink we better split it up
because I would also go offscript, depending who was on the
room, right?
And they wanted me to stay tothat script.
So uh he said, Well, no, you I'mgonna have two people doing this
(13:30):
seminar, 250 in one room, 250 inanother room.
You guys need to start and stopat the same time and make sure
that you do it by the book.
So I was scared to death becauseI knew I always went off script,
but we know I was being watched.
I'm thinking about this, but Istill went off script to serve
(13:53):
the people that were in theroom, that the makeup of that
particular group.
So I actually got done a littlebit before lunch, and I walked
over and I watched the otherpresenter.
Well, just before lunch,somebody from the company raised
their hand.
They said, Yeah, it looks like,you know, I understand you have
a program to do and that you'reproviding us with specific
(14:15):
information.
But what we're interested in ishow would you address this
particular issue in ourparticular industry?
And the facilitator who wasquite good, said, Well, Dr.
Karis is an expert in his field,and we'll get to that.
But the person said, Well, yeah,could you just give me an idea
(14:37):
of how the content matches withthis particular challenge that
we're facing in the companythat's important for us?
And she said, Well, I want tosay again, Dr.
Karis knows what he's doing, andit's in the book, and we'll be
getting to that.
So they went to lunch, all 500people, and that's where they're
(14:58):
talking.
Well, after lunch, there arefour, there were like 350 people
in my seminar.
And so I continue to go offscript.
So at one point, I find that Ithat was that background that
would allow me to start and stopand be able to pick up the
(15:21):
content, but also to tailor itto a specific industry or
profession because I also,beyond that, went off and then
became a student of negotiation.
So I went all the way back toSun Tzu, and and that's how
evolved negotiation was born.
I went back to Sun Tzu after 15years with Dr.
(15:44):
Kieris.
I studied and I asked thisquestion: what is the same in
negotiation today as it was uhin Sun Tzu's time and all the
way going all the way back tothe Holy Bible?
And now, what is differentbecause of technology, because
of politics, geography?
And I wanted to create anegotiation framework that could
(16:08):
be universally applied.
Now, I would argue that if yougo all the way back to that
first audition, when I said,Yeah, you you got two, that was
a little arrogant, but and butit also uh uh put attention
because now everybody waslooking for me to fail, right?
(16:30):
Yes, uh, including, you know,they're like, oh, we'll make
sure this guy doesn't get.
But then they look back andthey're saying, like, okay,
well, here's the preparation,here's the background.
Now 15 years.
So today, when I begandeveloping evolved negotiation,
I could have worked in all thestates of the United States,
(16:52):
Mexico, all the provinces ofCanada, Africa, and many other
spots around the world.
So there are very few placesthat I can go into where I don't
know how to do the homework anddo the preparation.
And there are many things thatare the same across all
industries.
(17:12):
Two plus two is four in anyenvironment.
So by utilizing universalprinciples, which was going all
the way back to the Sun Tzu, Iwas looking at how negotiation
impacts divorce, impactsmarriage, impacts any type of a
widget, politics, history, uh,geography, politics, and
(17:38):
negotiation is a tantamount toall of that.
And in a specific way, many ofus just think of negotiation as
being transactional.
And that's one of the missionsI'm on to tell people that
negotiation is really a form ofhuman interaction.
The issue is just what tools areyou using to come to it, right?
(18:02):
So if you're only using yourbackground and experience, you
have a lot of people thatmistake experience for knowledge
and skill, right?
So, experience, and I'll havepeople come to me and say, Well,
I've been doing this for 25years, Derek.
And so, well, what's thefoundation that you built that
on?
Well, you know, did you take acourse?
(18:25):
Have you extended your say?
Well, no, I've been doing it for25 years.
And my question to them is ifyou didn't have, and don't
because everybody will say,Well, I read that book, and I'm
my first question is, well, whatare the top three tenets you
learned from that book?
Uh uh uh so, in other words, youdidn't read the book.
What you did is turn the pages,right?
(18:47):
So let's get past that.
Now you have 25 years ofexperience.
So, how does your experienceinform your knowledge?
Well, your knowledge is basedupon your experience, and your
experience is not based on anytype of foundation.
So you don't know if you've beendoing something wrong for 25
(19:08):
years, but you didn't know it.
So people will say, Well, I'mvery successful.
And I would say, yes, but halfof the success you might have
had, you left on the table anddon't even know it because you
had no wall upon which to bouncethat ball to say, How did I
(19:28):
determine how well I did?
Right.
And then you get people intowin-win negotiation, which we
think is a misnomer.
Uh, I say, yeah, win-win people.
And we asked last year almost amillion people, professionals
across all kinds of areas, howdo you determine if an outcome
(19:50):
was win-win?
Well, the vast majority ofpeople say, well, I feel good
about the outcome.
Or uh, I not neither of us goteverything we wanted.
But the biggest thing, I feelgood about it.
And my response to that is,yeah, people often feel good and
at the end of a win-winnegotiation, generally because
(20:13):
somebody got screwed.
But can you say that?
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, just in case.
I've uh man, yes, you know, soyeah, so you have a misnomer
like that, right?
SPEAKER_01 (20:30):
How do you how do you dare?
I mean, phenomenal, a lot ofgreat information, but you're
exactly right in the art ofnegotiation, preparation, do
your homework, and everybody hasthe power to do that, right?
When you get to a place andeverything's being negotiated,
how do you help?
Because the world is changingfast, careers, jobs, small
businesses, politics, churches,schools, budget, everything's on
(20:54):
negotiation.
How do you who blinks first?
That used to be it like whoblinks first, usually, or who's
who what's the biggest mistakeyou think we make when we are
negotiating?
SPEAKER_02 (21:06):
Well, you brought up two things, and that is a a
principle.
He or she who blinks firstloses.
Let's just put that in apolitical context, uh, because
that is a fundamentalfundamental point.
We also are witnessing right nowfrom a political geopolitical
(21:26):
perspective, we are having anopportunity to watch what we
would describe as a powernegotiator uh in full-blown
color.
So a power negotiator from theuh evolved perspective is one
who does very well when theyhave more resources, more time,
(21:48):
and less to lose than theircounterpart.
Well, and so if they'renegotiating with people in
courtrooms and threatening tokeep them in court for seven
years because they have themoney to do it, and they're
negotiating with someone thatdoes not, let's take contractors
who are not paid on large moteluh hotels and resorts.
(22:13):
Well, did they ever get paid?
No, because they didn't have theresources to stay in court for
seven years.
So you would call that asuccessful negotiation.
Well, it was a power outcome.
So a power negotiator threatensuh and raises the stakes, let's
(22:33):
just say, to 145%.
Now, people can go to my websiteand see that I wrote an article
and I said in 2016, I describedour president as a power
negotiator who does well whenhe's negotiating against people
where he has more power, moreskill, and less to lose.
(22:55):
I also predicted that in apolitical realm he would not do
well, especially not againstpeople that look at millennia.
You're talking about China andRussia that look at millennia.
And in negotiations, sometimeswe used to used to say, well,
Americans show up and they booka three-day, because we're
(23:18):
negotiating three days.
The Chinese show up, they gotthe whole hotel booked out for
the next six months.
And then when they walk in, youwalk in to check in, you say,
Yeah, I'm checking in.
They know you're checking in.
How long you stay in four days,they know you stay in four days.
The negotiation is not startingtill three days and three and a
(23:40):
half days into the exchange.
You're not even negotiatingbecause they're gonna slam you
against that consequences of uha deadline.
So they're not negotiating untilthe end.
I think we just saw that happen.
So so you just saw that somebodywho's a power negotiator raise a
(24:02):
stake, and then when it startsseeing the consequences in the
stock market and from apolitical realm, suddenly we're
gonna have a 90-day.
And now what you have are peoplerunning around saying uh that we
have a win-win outcome becausethe Chinese came to the
negotiating table.
Well, factually speaking, wherewe are right now, we were at a
(24:26):
two and a half percent uh at thein January from the from the uh
tariff standpoint.
We're now at 27.
So just how win-win was it, andwho was it win-win for?
You know, so it the politics ofthat.
Now, the good thing uh for theadministration is that most
(24:46):
people don't know any of this,they're not thinking about it.
It looks like a victory.
We got a 90-day pause.
Okay, we got a 90-day pausebecause people start talking
about you can have$10 instead of$20 or whatever that was.
And then people start saying,Well, we might not have any
dolls, because it takes four orfive months for those dolls to
(25:09):
get across the oh shit.
So when you start really saying,uh-oh, what is it gonna look
like when there's no Christmasand and businesses are going
out?
So why did they blink?
Because the deadline waslooming, because the
consequences for you could havepredicted, I did, not only in
2016, but in a recent article.
(25:32):
It's not magic, you're justlooking at the tea leaves and
moving the pieces.
Uh, I'll I'll say this too.
A lot of people use chess uh asa metaphor for negotiation.
Now, we I used to use chess, andthere are some elements of chess
that make make it a goodmetaphor, but through the
(25:54):
evolved negotiation framework,we would suggest to you that
wait a second.
So, in chess, some things arealways the same.
Right now, there's only been twochanges in chess in 400 years,
but every board is eight downand eight across.
Now, why is chess good?
(26:15):
Because in chess, there's thesame pieces, they're shaped
different, cult that's torepresent cultures and all of
that.
It may be made out of somethingdifferent, but it's eight down,
eight across.
Now, where does chess differfrom life or negotiation in
life?
In chess, when we sit down, weboth know what the rules are.
(26:38):
We also know the limitations ofevery player on that board.
We know that a rook cannot godiagonally all the way across
the board.
We know that a pawn cannot goall the way across the board.
We know those are thelimitations.
Now, that's the end of thecomparison of chess in business
(26:59):
and in life.
Because in business and in life,we don't know who we're
negotiating with, and the pawnmay actually be the queen or the
king.
And at any time, those roles canchange.
So if you're still thinkingchess, and we have that
happening right now, we havepeople that are trained playing
(27:21):
chess against people who aregoing to move the ball and move
the negotiators left and rightat any given time, which
completely undoes the the intentthat I have that oh, I was
planning for you to move yourpawn and you change the pawn out
(27:44):
for a queen.
Uh-oh, I lose.
That's it.
And then we say, well, it'syeah, let's say it was win-win,
so I look good.
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (27:54):
Wow.
How much as you think aboutnegotiations and you think
about, you know, thank you forsharing what you've shared so
far.
How does it play into aleadership?
We spend a lot of time helpingleaders be adaptable, flexible,
communicating effectively.
How much does negotiation play apart in being an effective
leader?
SPEAKER_02 (28:14):
Absolutely everything.
And that's what a lot of theprofessional CEOs, CFOs, and
whatnot that I work with, that'swhat they discovered.
That they don't necessarily seetheir interactions with their
board, for instance, as anegotiation.
Now, from I find that difficultto believe, but but that's
because of my background.
(28:36):
Uh, they don't necessarily seethe relationship with their
employees as a negotiation, andyet it is.
So, one of the things we dosomething called uh stealth
negotiation.
So I will have a teamnegotiating, let's say, in
procurement in China, and that'scoming up soon.
(28:58):
They'll be sitting in China at atable in a room.
Now, what's gonna happen issomebody's gonna walk in and
say, you know what, Ron couldn'tmake it on site, so we're gonna
call in, and somebody's gonnadial up the phone and call in.
Now, the person on the phone isme.
So while I'm listening to thatnegotiation, I am texting
(29:21):
insight.
I'm saying this uh identifying aspecific tactic, I'm suggesting
where they should be sitting,I'm suggesting when they should
be taking the break and leavingit, walking in, walking out, and
then reminding people of thecontent from our previous
discussion.
So, right at a point when oneperson might be thinking, gee,
(29:46):
they're ready to do a deal.
We might take a caucus and walkout of the room.
Then when we come back in, welose everything that we learned
in that session to recalibrateour.
Strategy.
And I'll say this too.
The two big things that areimportant.
(30:06):
Number one, every form ofnegotiation right now, the Keras
form, uh, getting to yes, whichI call the Harvard form, and
certainly the knockoff neversplit the difference.
On all of those, they focus onnegotiating with yourself.
(30:27):
And people don't realize it.
Here's how take the bestalternative to a negotiated
agreement.
Who is creating the bestalternative?
Who's deciding what they need toget before they go into the
room?
Who's saying to themselves,well, if we can't get X and all
else fails, we can always uhfall back on our best
(30:51):
alternative to negotiating.
Now, if you take it from aquantitative standpoint, who are
you actually negotiating with?
I set my BATNA, you set yourBatna, we walk into a room and
then try to figure out whetheror not what you're offering me
is better than my bestalternative.
(31:13):
Entire negotiation takes place,and neither of them realizes
they have done an excellent jobof negotiating with themselves.
Wow.
That's the focus of negotiating.
Now, in a an evolved negotiatorisn't interested in their own
opinion, background, or whatthey want.
Why?
I know what I want.
(31:33):
I know what my limitations are,I know who was on my team.
I was on the calls as we preppedfor that negotiation.
What I'm interested in is whatis Ron not telling me.
I'm not even interested in whatyou told me.
Because I know you that that'sonly half of what I don't even
know if the people in the roomare the people who came up with
(31:57):
the information that youprovided me.
So my entire focus is in findingout how do I get Ron to share
with me what he has beenunwilling to share with me.
So the entire first preliminaryparts of the negotiation are
only calibrating how much is Ronis willing to share today that
(32:21):
he had not shared previously,about who was in the room, about
the data, where the data camefrom, what is actually risk are.
Now, if Ron says, Well, Derek, Ican't share with you, that's
proprietary.
I say, Well, I'll tell you, Ron,um, let me share some
proprietary information withyou.
(32:44):
So I might give you some pieceof proprietary information that
I had not previously shared withyou.
Why am I doing that?
Because now I want to see, doesRon take that proprietary
information and use it to buryme?
Or does Ron say, well, if you'rewilling to give me that, I'm
willing to give you this.
(33:06):
Now we begin to see how large wecan make that circle of shared
information.
So at the point that Ron says,Look, there, I cannot tell you
any, it's a statutory thing.
I can't tell you anything else.
That's when the negotiationbegins.
Because now we have all theshared information that we're
(33:29):
willing to give up on the table.
Now I can measure what I thoughtI wanted against what's in that
circle, but I'll tell you99.99.9 times, based on what you
shared with me that I didn'tknow before I walked in the
room, the Batna that I walked inthere with is no longer valid.
(33:53):
So my entire perspective is thisif the outcome of a negotiation
matches what you thought youwanted it to be before you
walked in the room, youdefinitely got screwed.
Or you aimed too low, right?
And and by contrast, of a Kerisrule, for instance, is uh one of
(34:16):
the Keris rules is aim high.
And you see that in 145%.
But somebody didn't read theother part of that rule, which
was don't be ridiculous.
So I would share with you, forinstance, you take uh uh the
most popular book right now onnegotiation, Chris Voss's never
(34:36):
split the difference.
Two things.
Um, never split the differencewas borrowed from Dr.
Karis's book, The NegotiatingGame, because his rule three is
don't split the difference.
So you got 40 years later,somebody goes, I know, let's
improve that.
Never split the difference.
(34:58):
Now I spent 15 years teachingthat rule, but over the period
of 15 years, I ran intosituations where I thought this
doesn't make any sense.
And that is became part of theevolved framework.
Now, why does it not make anysense to teach someone don't
split the difference or neversplit the difference?
(35:19):
Simple.
If I teach you never to dosomething, I have inadvertently
taught you to fail in anysituation where what I told you
never to do is exactly the thingthat would create an outcome
versus perhaps nuclear war.
Like, are we willing to splitthe difference?
(35:40):
Uh it's like it's nuclear war orsplit the difference.
Are you still stuck on neversplit the difference?
So we don't teach people that weteach people when to split the
difference, how to split thedifference, whether and uh uh
they should should actuallyrecalibrate what that difference
is.
But we're not gonna peach peoplebecause one of our rules is
(36:03):
you've got to know when to be acook, where you can you know
trade out ingredients andtemperatures and that, when to
be a baker.
Now, if you you mess up on abaking recipe, go too far
astray, you got a lemon poundcake that looks like a brick,
right?
And then right, so you got toknow when to be a cook and when
(36:28):
to be a baker and when to throwthe rules out all together.
But our objective is to createan outcome that we did not see
as possible when we walked intothe room because we didn't
understand that board, we didn'tunderstand the players, we
didn't understand all of thosethings that we spent our time
(36:50):
discovering.
Now, let's say that Ron says,I'm not giving you any more
information, I can't, it'sproprietary.
And absolutely, though I try andtry, or though I work to get it
done, you say what's on thetable, take it or leave it.
That was Dr.
Karis's seven second book.
(37:11):
Take it or leave it.
Okay, let's take it or leave it.
So now, what you've now donethen is declare war because your
position is what dictated theactual mode of negotiation.
If it's take it or leave it,then we are at war.
(37:31):
And we are in the mostcompetitive element right then.
So now I'm not worried about thesurvivors.
And my intent at that point isnot to be benevolent.
My intent at that point is tomake you pay for the
unwillingness.
You put them in a position oftake it or leave it.
(37:53):
I'm in the same, I might as wellgive it up and fall on my own
sword, because the alternativeis that you're gonna beat me up.
So now I'm defending my life ormy country's life.
So, from a political standpoint,whether it's in a corporation or
a mom and pop shop, uh, that's adifferent thing.
And those are very different, ofcourse.
(38:15):
I recently working with a smallbusiness person who was
inheriting a business from hisfather.
And when he called, he said, Idon't know if you can help me,
but I I gotta go work atMcDonald's.
I cannot work for my fatheranymore.
And I we had a discussion, andhe said, Listen, my dad built
this business, and he's both I'msupposed to be president, but my
(38:37):
dad is in there every fiveminutes and doesn't respect my
decisions.
And he said, Well, there'snothing you can do in
negotiation about that.
And I said, Well, the answer isI don't know if I can do
something or not, but let's havea conversation.
And I will tell you this today,six weeks later, his father
handed him the keys not to one,but to two of the businesses,
(39:01):
and it had nothing to do withthe business, it had to do with
the his father's perception ofthe risk involved in giving
those keys up.
But when we recalibrated theidea to say that you can keep
the keys and keep your fingersin the business and lose your
(39:21):
son, which is going to be aproblem for you and your wife,
because your wife is on ourteam, right?
Now, I didn't know his momdirectly, but through our
conversations, I said, Is yourmom on his team or your team?
He said, She's definitely on histeam.
I said, You don't know yourmother.
(39:42):
No, your mother knows yourfather, you're her son.
I guarantee you, she's on yourteam.
And ultimately, who do you thinkwas like, Listen, would you like
to remain married?
Uh, because you you you canchoose otherwise and not give
him the keys, or you give up thekeys and we go on vacation
(40:02):
because you've been had to callhim in it.
So you now he started thinking,well, we can never do that.
Well, yeah, but you can never doit because you didn't have the
skill to do it.
Yes, and then ultimately you hadto have the courage to pull that
trigger when the time came, butultimately that is the skill
(40:24):
that's involved, and that's whya mentor is important, that's
why having a background isimportant, and that's why also
uh not being afraid to fail is avery important.
And I'll tell one quickanecdote.
You know, Zig Ziglar was a heroof mine.
Um, I said to Zig one time, I Isaid, you know, I'm failing in
(40:50):
my career.
And he said, wait a minute.
I he said, why?
I said, Well, I don't think Ihave enough time to get this
done.
I'm doing all these things, I'mfailing.
And the first thing he said tome, he said, Well, I'll tell
you, God didn't make no flops.
So secondly, he said, now what'sthis about?
(41:11):
You don't have enough time.
And I said, Well, I don't haveenough time to do everything I
need to do.
He said, Well, I got somethingto tell you.
I said, What?
He said, You're not thatimportant.
I said, What do you mean I'm notthat important?
He said, God didn't give you 23hours a day and give everybody
else 24.
(41:32):
Everybody gets 24 hours in aday.
So it's not that you don't haveenough time, you don't have
enough focus in terms of howyou're making the decisions
about what you do with yourtime.
So you didn't flop and you'rehaving failure.
And then he said the last thing,he said, Derek, by the way, I
(41:53):
say he's on that failure thing.
He said, failure is an event,it's not a person, failure is an
event.
So what I understood, failure isan event in my life, it is not
my person.
So I separate the failure, whichincreases my capacity and
(42:14):
interest in willingness to takea risk.
And believe me, I have had totake a few risks in my life.
SPEAKER_01 (42:23):
Wow.
Phenomenal information.
And I'm sure people arelistening, and and we can have
this conversation for for muchlonger.
But you're you're running aprogram, and I want to figure
out you know, people that arethat are negotiations isn't
everything, it's in leadership,it's communications, their
relationships, dealing with yourkids, you know, dealing with
your community, buying a house,buying a car.
Negotiations are all over.
How do people reach you?
(42:43):
Um, and what's the best way forthem to make contact with you
too?
You know, you got a program thatyou're running, but also you
share a lot of greatinformation.
So as we begin to write down,reach you.
SPEAKER_02 (42:52):
Yeah, no, no, no.
As we do, I appreciate that somuch.
Well, first of all, you prettymuch go on the internet and
stick my name, and you're gonnafind articles in that.
But I would definitely askpeople to take a look at the
LinkedIn profile.
We also have a Facebook page aswell as uh um uh Instagram, so
you can find us there or ourwebsite, which is just h-c.com.
(43:16):
But I would really encouragepeople who are interested in the
topic.
We've got a number onebestselling book uh called
Evolve or Be SlaughteredNegotiation for the 21st
Century.
That's a number one bestselleron Amazon, and it's looking like
it may end up on New Yorkbestseller uh in the near future
here, too.
Um, but I also have uh somethingelse like to offer your
(43:40):
audience.
We offer a no BS 30-minute uhno-cost consultation, have a
conversation.
So you can go on our website andit just says set up a no-cost
introductory call, and that's 30minutes.
I'm not gonna sell you anything,we're gonna have a conversation.
(44:01):
Maybe you have a question abouta specific thing that you're
dealing with.
If we can, we're gonna providesome action steps.
I'm probably gonna say be a goodidea to buy the book.
I might say that.
But other than that, theopportunity for that is just to
have a conversation thateducates me uh and and helps me
(44:26):
continue to learn how to adaptand use specific principles.
But also the greatest referralin the world that I can get is
that I have a conversation withsomeone who says, What about
this or what about that?
Can provide some action steps.
And they call me back up andthey'll say, Well, thank you for
(44:47):
that.
You know, I didn't get exactlywhat I wanted, which is what you
said, but I did move the needleand things changed.
And then the next thing it mightbe six months later, somebody
will call and say, Hey, I talkedto you know, John or Mary five
or six years ago, and we'd liketo do some consulting with you.
(45:08):
So rather than selling people,I'd rather interact with people,
and be educated by and work withpeople, and let's find out what
we can do.
Because at the end of the day,I'm old, and I want to give away
as much as I can give away inthe time that I have to give it
away and talk to as many peopleas I can.
(45:31):
And so I invite people to dothat.
SPEAKER_01 (45:34):
Wow.
Thanks.
Derek, you've been phenomenal.
I mean, shared a lot ofinformation and wisdom, gave all
your contact information, has 30minutes.
So please take advantage ofthat.
Those 30 minutes, um, you know,negotiation is in everything.
There's nothing, I tell people,there's nothing that happens
without a negotiation happening.
Now, whether you know you're init or not, it's a different
thing, but nothing happenswithout negotiating.
(45:54):
And for all you that arelistening, you know, uh follow
unpack, you know, with RonHarvey.
We release an episode everysingle Monday.
Um, we're we're happy to help,we're happy to answer questions,
and we're happy to put you incontact with anybody that comes
on our show.
You know, so for now, Derek andI want to tell you thank you.
We appreciate you know, all ofyou following, we appreciate you
being on Derek.
But until next time, Derek and Iwill sign off and tell you have
a great day, and we hope thatyou got something that's gonna
(46:17):
make a difference in your life.
Any last minute you want toshare anything before we drop
off, uh, Derek?
SPEAKER_02 (46:21):
I want to say thank you so much for the privilege of
having me on the show, and I'llbe continuing to listen, and I'm
gonna try to negotiate you intohaving me back in the future.
Did you see that?
Thank you so much.
A great privilege, Ron.
SPEAKER_01 (46:38):
Thank you.
So you don't have to move in,you don't have to move in, you
don't have to put a queen on thetable.
You're good.
I enjoy it.
So uh I would definitely love tohave you back.
So we'll be negotiating whatthat date looks like for both of
us.
I really appreciate it.
And for everyone else, hey,reach out to us.
We're both business owners.
We hope we share something foryou as a business owner,
(46:58):
entrepreneur, or in corporateAmerica that makes you better.
SPEAKER_00 (47:02):
Well, we hope you enjoy this edition of Unpack
Podcast with leadershipconsultant Ron Harvey.
Remember to join us every Mondayas Ron Unpacks Sound Advice,
providing real answers for realleadership challenges.
Until next time, remember to addvalue and make a difference
where you are or the people youserve.
(47:24):
Because people always matter.
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