March 18, 2025 • 50 mins
The world famous cartoonist of For Better or For Worse drops by to reminisce about her friendship with Charles Schulz, her career as a top syndicated cartoonist, and the time she walked a mile in Sparky’s shoes! It was an honor to have Ms. Johnston on the show, and we are thrilled to share this wide ranging conversation with you all! Plus: I’ll see you in the Louvre
Read For Better of For Worse at https://www.fborfw.com/
Transcript available at UnpackingPeanuts.com
Unpacking Peanuts is copyright Jimmy Gownley, Michael Cohen, Harold Buchholz, and Liz Sumner. Produced and edited by Liz Sumner. Music by Michael Cohen. Additional voiceover by Aziza Shukralla Clark.
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Thanks for listening.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
VO (00:02):
Welcome to Unpacking Peanuts, the podcast where three cartoonists take an in-depth look at the greatest comic strip of all time, Peanuts by Charles M.
Schulz.
Jimmy (00:19):
Hey, everybody.
Welcome back to the show.
This is Unpacking Peanuts, the show where we, for better or for worse, look at every year of Charles Schulz's comic strip masterpiece, Peanuts.
I'll be your host for the proceedings.
My name is Jimmy Gownley.
And wouldn't you know it, I'm a cartoonist too.
I do things like Amelia Rules, Seven Good Reasons Not To Grow Up, The Dumbest Idea Ever, and my new comics can be seen now, serialized at gvillcomics.substack.com.
(00:44):
Joining me as always are my pals, co-hosts and fellow cartoonists.
He's a playwright and a composer, both for the band Complicated People as well as for this very podcast.
He's the co-creator of the original comic book price guide, the original editor for Amelia Rules, and the creator of such great strips as Strange Attractors, A Gathering of Spells, and Tangled River.
It's Michael Cohen.
Michael (01:03):
Say hey.
Jimmy (01:04):
He's the executive producer and writer of Mystery Science Theater 3000, a former vice president of Archie Comics, and the creator of the Instagram sensation, Sweetest Beasts, Harold Buchholz.
Harold (01:14):
Hello.
Jimmy (01:15):
Well, guys, this is extremely exciting here today.
Today, we are hosting one of the legends of daily cartooning, one of the greatest comic strip artists of all time, and a personal friend of Mr.
Charles M.
Schulz, Lynn Johnston, creator of For Better or For Worse.
Welcome to Unpacking Peanuts, and Lynn, thank you so much for being here today.
(01:39):
It's a huge thrill for us.
Lynn Johnston (01:40):
You're welcome.
It's a pleasure.
Jimmy (01:43):
You are one of the few people, I think, in the world who would have an inkling what Charles Schulz's life is like, having been such a phenomenal successful cartoonist for so long.
Can you take us back to your origin story?
When was it that you first encountered Peanuts?
And what was the effect it had on you?
Lynn Johnston (02:04):
Gosh, I must have been about five, I guess.
Or, yeah, I would think around then.
I did not get along with my maternal grandfather.
He was a very staunchy, slogy British gentleman who preferred boys, and he didn't tolerate me too well.
But both of us loved the comics, and so we would sit on the sofa, and I would sit next to him because his house was always freezing, and we would go over the comics, and he would read everything, everything, and he would analyze everything.
(02:36):
Of course, in those days, there was Moon Mullins and Popeye and Alleyoop and all of those classics, Dick Tracy, and Peanuts was one of the favorites, and he really hated it.
He thought it was terrible.
He said, Children don't talk like that.
That's the most ridiculous thing.
But he would read them aloud to me before I could read, and I realized that maybe kids don't talk like that, but we sure think that way about fairness and just objective things, the things that you notice around town and the way your friends greet you.
(03:12):
And I thought, yeah, it's a different vocabulary, but it's absolutely the way kids think.
And I was always impressed by the way he treated that Sparky, Peanuts, treated kids as adults because, in a way, we have many of the both, certainly when it comes to fairness and relationships, we're pretty, pretty savvy.
Jimmy (03:33):
Oh, absolutely, absolutely.
And I think it's something, I wonder how much of that even Schulz even understood because he always said he wasn't writing for children, but boy, do children get it.
And that's like a special kind of genius, don't you think?
Lynn Johnston (03:49):
He might not have been writing for children, but you never grow up.
You never ever grow up completely.
You don't.
In fact, my husband and I were talking the other day about injustices that happened to us when we were children, the way our parents treated us or kids that bullied us in school, or if we bullied kids.
And we could rock it right back to those days.
(04:11):
We could remember the hurt and remember the embarrassment, and remember punishments that weren't due, and all those things.
And we were thinking, we are both 78 years old.
How is it that these things still affect us today?
And it does.
It really does.
Whatever crap went on in your childhood, you're going to remember when you're my age.
Honest to goodness, it's crazy.
Jimmy (04:31):
Oh, I know that.
I absolutely know that.
Lynn Johnston (04:34):
If you're a parent, take heed.
Jimmy (04:39):
No, it's true.
When you're a parent, you are worried, is this little thing I'm doing now going to scar them for life?
How much therapy is this going to cause this person to go to?
Lynn Johnston (04:48):
A lot of therapy, and you might pay.
SPEAKER_4 (04:53):
I see that in For Better or For Worse, there's so much in there where there's observation of how one generation affects the other, and you're not always noticing how you're affecting the other person.
Lynn Johnston (05:06):
When I was offered the opportunity to do the strip, I had worked for the publisher in Minneapolis, and he sent some little cartoon books I did to Universal Press Syndicate, and they sent me a 20-year contract.
So when I went to Kansas City to meet these people, what they were looking for was something to rival Hyann Lois, and Blondie, and Family Circus, because they were all done by man, and they were all very fanciful about dad comes home from work, and he comes to a perfect home with a perfect life, with perfect care, and perfect kids, and there might be funny things happening with the dog, but it was so unreal.
(05:45):
It was so fanciful.
And so they wanted the dirty diapers, and the bad moods, and the ups and downs, the honest ups and downs of marriage, which was what I had done in my little cartoon books.
And so I signed this 20-year contract, and the strip began in 1979.
Jimmy (06:09):
I have a question for you.
Was it always intended that you were going to age the characters like that?
Was that part of the initial idea?
Or how did that come about?
Because it's so rare and it's so unique.
Lynn Johnston (06:21):
No.
I get bored very easily.
And when you're doing gag a day, it gets boring and it's also not possible to sustain a really good comic strip without other writers for gag a day.
It really is not.
Sparky tried it and he was probably one of the rare beasts who never used writers.
But I felt that if I was going to do a real serious kick at the can, I better be the best I can possibly be with this tiny little bit of real estate.
(06:51):
If you're gonna do it, do it well.
So I realized early on that gag a day, I was gonna need writers.
And also it was going to affect my children because it was based on our family.
So I allowed my children to grow up three years before I started to age the characters.
And then I started to age the characters.
(07:12):
And for me, that was the best decision possible because it gave me a lot more material.
It gave me lots more in that the kids, you know, their behavior changes, the vocabulary changes, they've got friends outside the home.
There were so many more possibilities for humor and controversy and relationships with the characters growing.
(07:34):
But in having them grow, I denied myself the possibility of licensing.
So you can't do, you know, you can't do a Pampers box because by the time the box arrives on the shelf, the baby is now three.
You know, it's usually takes three years because they got to get rid of the old product.
So that you got to sign a contract.
(07:54):
Usually takes a year to get that done and blah, blah.
So licensing was not a possibility.
But we did regular books that came out every year, collection books, and we did calendars and greeting cards.
And it was a very busy life.
Jimmy (08:13):
Can you talk a little bit about the unrelenting nature of drawing a daily comic strip?
You did it for almost 30 years, I think.
Lynn Johnston (08:21):
I did.
Jimmy (08:22):
I cannot imagine.
And your art, I mean, is beautiful.
It's detailed.
The stories are complex.
Can you just talk about what that is like for those of us who will never draw a daily comic strip, what that schedule means?
Lynn Johnston (08:36):
At first, you're in panic mode.
Like in the first year, you really are under a lot of stress and a lot of pressure because it's a brand new job and it's unrelenting.
And people think, oh, you just do a drawing a day and send it off.
But they won't accept anything under a week's worth, except if you're Gary Trudeau.
He could send in three at a time because it was so political.
(09:00):
And so he was an editorial cartoonist, really, yes.
So he was probably the rare bird who could send his work in a bit at a time.
But the rest of us couldn't send in anything less than a week.
And if you were late, you were fined $100, right?
You only need one of those fines before you realize that you got to be on that deadline.
Because they, I mean, the Sunday comics had to go to Buffalo to be colored and then distributed.
(09:25):
And your work is appearing in Guam and Australia and Japan and, you know.
And in those days, there was no real electronic transfer.
They had fax machine was just invented or I think it was invented many years ago, but private family fax machines were only just available.
So I would fax my pencil rough to Lee Salem, who was my editor.
(09:47):
He was a great editor and he and I would go over everything.
And when he approved of my work, I would ink it and then I would send it by Grey Goose Bus from Lynn Lake, Manitoba.
Honestly, it was a full day drive for the bus to get to Winnipeg.
And then it would go by courier from there.
So I was, I had to be, and you have to be six weeks ahead of the dailies, eight weeks ahead of the Sundays because of the distribution and the coloring.
(10:14):
So you're really on the hook.
You've got to do this.
But if you sign a contract and you've got a sense of responsibility, you do it.
And I guess the worst part is not knowing when or how the ideas are going to come.
But when you're young and you're energetic, those ideas are often faster than you can write them down.
(10:36):
So I was blessed with that good fortune and that the Muse hung around me a lot, even though I was a busy mom of two young kids.
And I would work early in the morning.
I would, my son would go to school, my daughter would go to a date, a friend across the street, and I would work from nine to noon and then get the kids lunches.
(10:56):
Then I would later on work after dinner till sometimes four in the morning, and then sleep a few hours and get up and deal with the kids again.
So it was a really busy, busy time.
But when you're young, you can do these things.
So I eventually learned how to get into a rhythm and a routine.
(11:17):
I eventually started to trust myself that even if I couldn't think of a thing on Monday, on Tuesday, I would be able to write.
And I could write two, three weeks a dailies in a day, but just write.
And then the next day I would start the pencil, and then the next day I would do the ink.
So and then you've got the Sunday page, which is much bigger and that all had to be color coded for the colorists in Buffalo.
(11:42):
So that was a huge job.
And I eventually hired someone who was a really good artist to help me with that.
And I also years later, I hired someone to help me with the background illustrations.
So about, I don't know, 15 years before I retired, I was working with a background artist as well.
(12:02):
I did the main characters and I did all the art in pencil, but I would ink the main characters because I wanted those expressions to be just right.
And then I would hand everything over to my friend Laura, who would do all the backgrounds.
So then I could really put in detail like every little bottle on a shelf and every leaf on a tree and brick on a building, you know?
Harold (12:24):
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_4 (12:26):
So Lynn, I wanted to ask you, you mentioned what a great editor Lee Salem was, and you really were pioneering a different type of strip.
And because of what you had done in those three books that you had created, they saw something, I think, in your work that would fill a niche that really didn't exist.
I know Cathy Guisewhite was kind of blazing some trails with some of the things she was doing, but the way you approached the strip was so unique and so different.
(12:55):
I was just wondering about that relationship.
How involved was your syndicate and Lee with you through that process of developing?
Did it continue through the whole stretch of the strip or at some point, did they just kind of let you go and do the thing you were doing?
Lynn Johnston (13:14):
I had tremendous freedom.
I really did.
But anything that is as complicated as this has a rough start.
And so I asked for a creative contract to begin with.
So I had a six-month creative contract before the strip went live.
And Lee and I worked together with the fax machine for six months.
(13:34):
And it was an eye-opener because I had never written dialogue, you know, statement, statement, statement, gag, statement, statement, gag reaction.
You know, and so there's a flow and a rhythm to these things.
And I really had to learn how to do it.
I also had to get rid of any thoughts of any X-rated stuff, you know, if I was going to show a butt crack or talk about a fart or any of that, you know, the poo or whatever happens in the family, you know, I couldn't get away with anything.
(14:01):
In fact, years later, Bill Watterson and I were the only two that ever got a butt crack in the paper.
And we smacked it in.
Jimmy (14:10):
That is amazing.
Lynn Johnston (14:13):
Yeah.
So those first six months, Lee and I worked very closely together.
And then there were editors there who were kind of wacky, who wanted everything to be American.
They wanted American spelling and American situations.
They wanted me to celebrate Memorial Day and anything that was American.
And I said, I'm Canadian.
(14:34):
The strip is sort of centered in Southern Ontario.
If you want me to do that, you've got the wrong artist here.
You better hire someone else to do this and start their own story.
And Lee was my champion.
Said, this is what we want.
We want everything that is right for you and do what you need to do.
(14:55):
So they might change my grammar or they might change something else.
So they might suggest that one strip could be improved by doing X.
But for the most part, I was left alone.
And I had another editor with Lee.
Her name was Sue Roush.
And I keep in touch with Sue now, the two of us right back and forth.
And I sent her the collection books.
(15:16):
And I loved working with Lee and I loved working with Sue.
They were great people.
And they never did anything that was unnecessary.
Some people are a bit of a gatekeeper.
And if they think they have a bit of power, they will needle you and get you to change something just because they want to say, I got her to change it.
They never did anything like that.
(15:37):
They were very, very supportive.
And I had a great relationship with both of them.
Besides, I was one of the few cartoonists they said that was, I was always on time.
Jimmy (15:46):
That'll get you a lot of play if you show up on time.
SPEAKER_4 (15:50):
They're happy, yeah.
So that six months, it was so smart of you to say, I need this time to develop the six months.
So when you were describing that period, pretty much once you had finished your six months of preparation, did any of the strips that you did in those six months kind of build into what you were doing, or were you essentially starting from scratch?
SPEAKER_6 (16:10):
Oh, yeah.
Lynn Johnston (16:11):
No, there were a lot of capers in that six months, and so I would ink them and send them in.
SPEAKER_4 (16:17):
And then was Lee pretty much more hands off after you were in the actual day-to-day process of making the strips?
Lynn Johnston (16:24):
No, he was very involved.
He was very involved.
We would talk about, every time I would send a week of dailies, he would call and we would talk about everything from the quality of the line to the way the lettering was done.
And there were sometimes my hand lettering wasn't clear, for example.
It's not just the gag and the illustration that's important, but it's just every way you present the artwork.
(16:49):
If it's not legible, you've got to think of that.
SPEAKER_4 (16:52):
Right.
Well, I'm so glad to hear a positive story.
Of someone who worked with an editor and you were really a team to make something special.
That's really nice to hear.
Lynn Johnston (17:02):
I had great editors.
Jimmy (17:04):
Yeah.
Harold never hears stories about editors being good from me.
SPEAKER_4 (17:09):
Of course, we have an amazing editor for our podcast.
Jimmy (17:13):
Can you tell us a little bit to get into the real nitty gritty of it?
When you were inking those faces, what were you inking it with?
Lynn Johnston (17:20):
At the time, I was using a flexible speedball nip, C6 speedball nip and Windsor-Newton ink, which was at the time opaque and the best ink I could use, I could find.
Because I was living almost in the Arctic, it was a really distant place.
I had to bring my stuff up from Winnipeg or order it.
I would use Strathmore bond paper.
(17:42):
It was quite a nice thickness.
I would cut it all up and I made templates out of cardboard, and I would put the template down on my little sheet, and I would pencil in my squares and then start working.
Jimmy (17:57):
That's brilliant to do the template like that.
Because just the repetition of drawing up the panel borders for every day, I don't think the idea with cartooning is that it goes by so breezily.
But people don't consider how much work goes into making it seem so breezy.
Lynn Johnston (18:15):
Well, everything looks simple.
A movie looks simple when you go to the theater, right?
A movie looks simple.
You go in, there's a couple of hours, you eat your popcorn, and you go home.
And it never occurs to you all the editing and the sound and everything, the location.
I mean, it's years of work in that two-hour experience, but yet you don't know about it, don't think about it, you just enjoy the product.
(18:36):
So that's the same as any artwork, painting or anything you do.
And so again, with the comic strip, you get into a routine.
I did it all in pencil because I wanted to change the borders sometimes.
I would make the first panel a little bigger than the second one or something.
So I didn't have them printed up.
Charles Schulz had them printed up.
(18:57):
His panels were already printed with the word Peanuts up on the upper left.
And one day when I was in his studio, he was telling me he was going to go to a different format and would have to throw out all of these long panels.
And I measured the panels and I said, each one of your panels is twice the length of mine.
Can I have your paper?
(19:19):
And so he sent me a box of his paper, all with Peanuts printed on it.
And I split it all in half, turned it over and I worked on the back.
And so for a number of years, every For Better or For Worse panel came out with a Peanuts sign on the back.
Jimmy (19:35):
That is amazing.
That is so cool.
Lynn Johnston (19:38):
Yeah, it was fun.
Jimmy (19:39):
Can you tell us about the first time you met him?
Lynn Johnston (19:41):
Well, he called me in about 1985.
And I was sitting in my studio and I got this call.
And by then I had moved from this tiny little Arctic town down to a much less North town.
It was called North Bay, Ontario in Canada.
And I was in my basement studio and my phone rang.
And this thing came up and I said hello in this strange voice.
(20:07):
And I said, who is this?
And he said Charles Schulz.
And I said, who?
Thinking somebody was pranking me, right?
You always think your friends are pranking you.
And he said rather apologetically, I do peanuts.
And I was just speechless.
Just speechless.
And he told me how much he liked my work.
(20:28):
And it was such a wonderful compliment to have somebody who had been in the business for so long, was so well known to say that he liked my work.
And he was genuine about it.
We had a lovely conversation.
And then about a year later, at the Rubin Awards in Washington, Kathy Guisewhite introduced me to him.
And when he shook my hand, he bent over and said, I voted for you.
(20:49):
And that was the year I won.
I won the Rubin Award.
Jimmy (20:54):
Wow.
That is a good day.
Not only did you win, but Charles Schulz said he voted for you.
That's a good day.
Lynn Johnston (21:02):
Well, we hung out together, the bunch of us, Sparky and Jeannie and Kathy and myself.
And at one point, we were walking down one of the many avenues in Washington.
And it was just about to be his 65th birthday.
And Kathy and I were thinking, will you still need me?
Will you still need me?
And he turned around and said, stop that.
(21:22):
Stop that.
I don't want to be 65.
I don't want to be 64.
I don't want to be 64.
So when we met, he was 64.
And I was in my 30s.
Jimmy (21:35):
Now, you had to be real competition to him.
I mean, because For Better or For Worse was in, I don't know if you know this, but quite a few papers.
Now, he was a competitive guy.
Did you ever sense that?
Like, hmm, who's this lady coming on the outside?
Lynn Johnston (21:50):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_6 (21:51):
Yeah.
Lynn Johnston (21:52):
Yes.
If he thought that you were encroaching on his face in any way, he was not friendly.
And I'm not kidding.
Wow.
And at one point, I think that his work had been in the Louvre.
He had gone to Paris and his work was in the Louvre.
And at one point, my work was in over 2,000 papers.
(22:14):
And we were somewhere at a coffee shop or something.
And I leaned over and I said, I'm catching up to you, Sparky.
And he said, I'll see you in the Louvre.
And he said it in a way that was really, it wasn't nice.
Jimmy (22:26):
Wow.
SPEAKER_6 (22:27):
It wasn't nice.
Jimmy (22:29):
Wow.
Wow.
SPEAKER_4 (22:31):
We've often spoken about how the peanut strip is so sports oriented, more so than most other strips.
And he was probably more sports oriented than most other cartoonists.
And that competitive streak in him really does come out.
Lynn Johnston (22:46):
Absolutely.
His wife, Jeannie, hated playing tennis with him because she said he was such a good winner.
He loved to win.
And he would sort of look at you as just to say, aha, you know, so there.
But he was certainly, he was really an athlete.
He played hockey and tennis and golf.
And, you know, he really was competitive, but he was also very good at what he did.
(23:12):
And I know at one time he came down to Kansas City and there was, I think the Rubens was in Kansas City and we were doing a tour of the of the syndicate.
And they were really easygoing guys, those Kansas City guys, and they were all golfers.
And they came up with the BGA, the Bad Golfers Association, and they had hats and scarves.
(23:33):
They had club covers and caddy bags, and they had all this stuff with BGA written on it, meaning the Bad Golfers Association.
So they knew Sparky was a golfer.
And when he came into the building, they gave him this massive collection of BGA stuff, you know, the hat, the whole thing.
And when he got back to the hotel, he said, do you want this stuff?
(23:55):
Because I'm going to throw it out, because I am not a bad golfer.
SPEAKER_4 (24:02):
Yeah.
A lot of us who deal with humor and comedy, we often get so much of that humor out of insecurity.
What did you sense from him in terms of, as a person, how he dealt with that insecurity?
That insecurity, yeah.
Lynn Johnston (24:21):
He talked about it, but he had such a clout.
He was wealthy, he was well-known, he was handsome, he was articulate.
I mean, he had it all.
You kick off all the boxes for success and he had it.
If he was haunted by insecurity, it goes right back to his childhood.
And as I was saying before, you never lose that.
(24:43):
You never forget those insults and those bullies and the time that your mom sent you to your room.
I mean, you never forget the injustices of your childhood or the insecurities or the embarrassments.
And he brought that with him always.
He always had that in the back of his mind.
But as an adult, he was kind of a smug winner.
SPEAKER_4 (25:05):
That's so interesting.
Jimmy (25:07):
I read a story once about his reaction to one of your strips.
And I think this has some sort of insight into him, but I'm not sure what.
So I'll ask you.
When Farley the dog passed away, he and you told him, I guess, that was coming up.
He got very upset, right?
And he was he was invested like a still like a fan.
(25:29):
Could you tell a little bit about that story?
Lynn Johnston (25:31):
Well, yeah, I told him.
I mean, we were very close and I knew him very well.
And my husband and I had an aircraft and we could fly long distances at this point.
We had a Navajo aircraft, which, you know, it's a high altitude, very fast aircraft.
My husband was a really good pilot.
So we spent a lot of time out in California.
We would go out there for the Christmas show and, you know, for all kinds of events.
(25:52):
So we were always out there.
And so I told Sparky that I was planning on doing this because with the characters growing and aging and changing, the dog was now 13.
And I really, my sister-in-law was a veterinarian and she said, old English sheepdogs don't live that long.
You've got to deal with this.
But she said, make him go a hero.
(26:13):
Don't have him go to the vet.
She said, that's the saddest thing.
Just make him go a hero.
And so I took that to heart and I told Sparky, I really had to deal with the age of the dog and I was going to have to bump them off.
Right?
Sparky were furious.
He was furious.
He said, if you kill Farley the dog, I'm going to have Snoopy hit by a truck and sent to the hospital.
(26:35):
And he was serious.
And he said, and everybody's going to care about Snoopy and nobody's going to care about your dumb story.
Jimmy (26:41):
He said, holy cow.
Lynn Johnston (26:43):
So I thought, and he was, yeah, and he was serious.
He never swore.
So your dumb story, right?
So I went home and I said to myself, I guess I better do this without telling him when or how, because he's just going to have Snoopy hit by a truck.
And I don't want that to happen to poor Snoopy, right?
So I devised this story where April goes down to the creek behind their house.
(27:09):
For a while years ago, I had lived in a house on a ravine.
So the For Better or For Worse house was sort of based on that house.
And down in the ravine, there was a river that would in the springtime, really be a fast, deep little river.
And the kids were told to stay away.
So April goes down into the ravine and Farley's with her and she's got a toy boat.
(27:29):
She puts the boat in the river, goes after the boat, goes underwater.
He brings her up, the other dog runs to the house, it's very dramatic.
The dog holds April's head out of the water and the family pulls her out of the water and she's fine, but the dog dies from the exhaustion.
He's an old dog and he dies in April's arms.
(27:52):
Well, it was all very dramatic and I have to digress a little bit and say the saddest thing about this was that it happened at the time of the Oklahoma bombing.
And you never know what's going to be in the headlines because your work is sent in six to eight weeks in advance, right?
So I had done this story six weeks before and never, certainly never thought about what the headlines would be and you can't predict the future.
(28:21):
So when this happened, it was terribly upsetting to everyone who read the strip because they did not need to see a sad story at this time.
Everybody, it was the most outrageous act of terrorism and the most egregious loss of life at the time.
I mean, we're almost getting used to that now, but at the time, it scarred and hurt everyone, and so I was vilified for doing this story at this time.
(28:49):
Yeah.
Jimmy (28:50):
It's a beautiful story.
Lynn Johnston (28:52):
So Sparky was furious.
Jimmy (28:54):
As cartooning, it's great.
Lynn Johnston (28:56):
Well, he phoned me during the strip when the story ended, and when I picked up the phone, the first thing he said was that stupid little girl.
That stupid little girl.
Why did she go down to the river?
Why did she go?
Why that stupid little girl?
And at that point, I realized how invested he was in the comics, that he actually lived inside them, right?
(29:21):
Instead of blaming me, he blamed the character.
Jimmy (29:24):
That's amazing.
And what a compliment it is to your work, though.
Because if there's one person who understands that comics are just something that someone draws on a piece of paper, it would be Charles Schulz.
And for him to be that invested in it, I mean, that really speaks to your characters and your work.
SPEAKER_4 (29:41):
It's Farley.
I mean, Farley was such a beloved dog.
My wife's family named one of their dogs Farley.
So, you know, it's obviously you had quite an impact with it.
Lynn Johnston (29:51):
There were a lot of Farleys out there.
Jimmy (29:55):
Well, listen, how about we take a break right now, get a quick beverage, and then when we come back, we're going to talk about some of your favorite Peanuts comics characters and how you might think they might relate to the real Charles Schulz.
Does that sound like a plan?
Lynn Johnston (30:10):
Sure.
Sounds good.
Jimmy (30:11):
Awesome.
Okay, so everybody will be back on the other side of this.
SPEAKER_6 (30:15):
Hi, everyone.
We all love listening to Jimmy describe what's going on in a Peanuts trip, but comics are actually a visual medium.
You can see them anytime you want at gocomics.com or in your very own copy of the complete Peanuts available from Phantographics.
Plus, if you sign up for our monthly newsletter, you'll know in advance which strips we're talking about each week.
(30:40):
Learn more about the great Peanuts reread at unpackingpeanuts.com.
Jimmy (30:49):
And we're back.
So you were saying, we've done almost 140 episodes of this thing now.
And whenever we see something from the mainstream press or whatever talking to Charles Schulz, they would always say, well, you're probably Charlie Brown, right?
And he would say, yes, I guess I am.
But you see it differently.
You see him a little bit in all of the characters.
(31:11):
And because you tell us a little bit about what your favorite ones are.
Lynn Johnston (31:14):
He would tell you, if you want to know me, if you want to know who I am, read my work, because I am all the characters.
He would say that to you.
And he was right, because he could be as sort of down and out as Charlie Brown, as aggressive and mean and kind of cruel as Lucy.
(31:34):
He could be as pensive as Linus.
He loved music, especially jazz.
And so Schroeder was right in there with his focus on the piano.
And all of the characters, I think, eventually when I met Billy Jane King, I realized that Pebrim and Paddy was Billy Jane King, absolutely.
(31:56):
And for real.
And all of the characters were based on him, but also people that he knew.
Family, friends, teachers, people from his past.
Again, he never let go of his childhood.
And so all of the characters meant something to him.
And but they often meant other things to other people.
(32:18):
And people connect with Charlie Brown a great deal because, you know, and they always wish he would kick the football.
And in fact, when he knew he was dying, we all said, damn, well, Sparky, is Charlie Brown gonna be able to kick the football?
And he would just smile and not say, right?
He didn't say.
So we thought, well, maybe he will.
Maybe he will, but he never did.
Jimmy (32:41):
Now, when you would spend time with him, would you be able to notice the characters and go like, hmm, that's a Lucy moment there, Sparky.
Was it that obvious to you?
Absolutely.
Lynn Johnston (32:53):
Oh, yeah.
There were times when he was really mean.
In fact, Jim Davis was a good friend of mine.
He does Garfield.
And Garfield was becoming more and more and more popular to the point where he was really right up there.
And people were talking about Garfield.
And Jim and I got to know each other quite well.
(33:14):
Jim also had an airplane.
And we would fly down to Muncie, Indiana.
And my daughter grew up with Jim's son.
And we know each other, all of us.
We go to the Rubin Awards every year.
But otherwise, we would call and visit.
I mean, it's a unique group of people.
And we all connect in different ways.
But we all are very supportive and fond of each other.
(33:36):
So Jim wanted Sparky's friendship.
He wanted to get to know him.
He wanted to be invited into the inner circle as another cartoonist who was doing well.
And Sparky rejected him.
He was rude to him.
And he was very smug and happy when Garfield was not successful in Japan.
Because Garfield is rude to his owner, right?
(33:59):
Garfield is not a pleasant character.
Garfield is rude to his owner.
And he is ugly and burps and eats and, you know, is a gross character.
And he appeals to nine-year-old boys all over the world.
But Japan said, no, thank you.
And Sparky was thrilled.
He was absolutely thrilled, ha-ha, ha-ha.
(34:20):
So that kind of competitiveness, I didn't find that endearing at all.
I thought that was mean and unnecessary.
SPEAKER_4 (34:28):
Was the nature of your friendship such that you could call him or would choose to call him out on some of those things or would you just kind of let it slide?
Lynn Johnston (34:37):
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_4 (34:38):
Did he ever take it to heart or did he say, well, maybe I've gone too far or how did that play out?
SPEAKER_2 (34:44):
No.
Lynn Johnston (34:49):
No.
In fact, I got to tell you a story.
One time he phoned me and he said, I am so frustrated.
I've got to get a daily out and I can't.
He said, I've got five done.
I need six.
I got the Sunday.
He said, I'm missing one and I can't think of a thing.
He said, I got out of bed this morning and he said, I was in a terrible mood.
(35:11):
He said, I was depressed.
He said, I was happy one minute, depressed the next day.
He said, I'm on the bungee cord of life.
Up and down, up and down.
I'm on the bungee cord of life.
He said, I said, Sparky, there's number six.
Jimmy (35:24):
That's the script.
Lynn Johnston (35:26):
What he says.
I said, bungee cord of life.
That's number six.
I'm up and down, up and down.
I'm on the bungee cord of life.
I said, there's your punch line.
There's number six.
Jimmy (35:34):
We just covered that one recently.
Lynn Johnston (35:36):
He said, you came up with that.
SPEAKER_4 (35:39):
He wouldn't even take it, but even though he said it, that's so funny.
Lynn Johnston (35:43):
Well, he kept saying that it was in my eyes.
SPEAKER_4 (35:45):
He said it was your idea, even though he had said it.
Lynn Johnston (35:48):
Well, we argued, and I said to him, no, it's absolutely yours.
Go over the conversation.
You came up with that gag.
It's yours.
It's not mine.
It's yours.
So he did it.
He did that strip, and he sent it to me, and so I have it on my wall.
Jimmy (36:03):
That's amazing.
It's so cool.
But I will also say, knowing that he was that competitive and a little bit spiteful, that also makes me like him a little bit more.
Do you think that there is an element that has to be there of that type of personality to achieve that kind of worldwide just dominance culturally?
Lynn Johnston (36:25):
Yeah, you have to be competitive, but you're competitive with yourself.
And you also you look around to see what other people are doing.
But each one of us did something unique to ourselves.
I wasn't doing a copycat of anybody.
And nobody else was doing a copycat of me.
We were all working hard to produce what came out of our soul.
Right.
(36:46):
And it traveled through your right hand and went out on the paper.
And it was you.
It was you on the paper.
And so we were all really competitive and we had deadlines.
And you would look at the paper and we would get the slick sometimes.
You'd see what everybody else was doing.
You'd say, aha, Mother Goose and Grim is getting good.
I better up my game a little bit, you know.
(37:08):
But we all cared for each other.
The competition came with the sales staff at the syndicates.
You know, like the salesmen for For Better or For Worse would go out and say, are you still carrying Blondie?
You should be carrying For Better or For Worse.
And so I would bump for Blondie and sometimes Blondie would bump me.
But I could still be friends with the Young family.
You know, I knew Charlotte and Dean Young very well.
(37:31):
And the the folks that produced Blondie, I knew well, but I wasn't going out personally and saying, hey, you know, take mine instead of theirs.
So it was all of the competition that way was done with the salespeople and by the syndicates.
And so we were all of us, we were left to get together and some of us became very close friends.
SPEAKER_4 (37:54):
That's wonderful.
Could I ask who would you consider was in that inner circle of cartoonists with Charles Schulz along with you and some of the others you were mentioning?
Lynn Johnston (38:06):
It varied, it varied.
You know, it usually came to a breakfast table at the Rubens.
Sparky always had a table where he would invite his favorite people to sit with him at breakfast.
And it varied.
There were editors and cartoonists and salespeople.
And when Patrick does much.
(38:28):
McDonald?
McDonald.
When he came on the scene, he loved Patrick.
And even though his characters were little dogs and charming, they didn't, you know, it wasn't Snoopy-like and they weren't in this, you know, they weren't rivals in any way.
But he loved the charm of Patrick's work.
So Patrick was part of that.
There were quite a few people who were invited to the table, but it wasn't always cartoonist.
(38:51):
Kathy was always there.
If she was in the building, she was there.
I mean, it varied.
But I was usually at the table and I felt very honored to be there.
Jimmy (39:02):
It feels like that period, like the 80s into the 90s, was a real renaissance of newspaper cartoony.
You know, all those people that you mentioned are all great.
Mutz was great.
Calvin and Hobbes, you were working.
Kathy, Schulz, were you aware that, this is a really good time?
Lynn Johnston (39:25):
At the time, we knew that the papers were starting to atrophy.
They were starting to amalgamate.
But we never expected to see comic strips as we knew them to disappear the way they have now.
When they started to shrink them down, and they would shrink them or stretch them so they could squeeze one more in, so you'd see your strip with the characters looking like that screaming painting.
(39:52):
And we'd say, what the heck have they done?
Because they've squeezed, I think the people that do the squeezing don't care about the art.
They just want to get one more comic strip in.
And it went from you having this massively colorful, big, full page, like I read with my grandfather.
And you went from that to these scrawny little, you know, sort of scraps of bits and pieces that eventually, you know, showed up in your paper.
(40:20):
And I created what I thought in my head was a size laugh ratio.
The smaller you shrink a cartoon, the less funny it is.
Now, one time I was flying from Ottawa to back home.
And at the airport, I picked up a Jim Unger book.
It was one of the big collection books and I didn't have it.
So when I got on the plane, I started reading this book.
(40:42):
And it was, you know, the 8x10 big collection book.
And I was laughing out loud.
And I was kind of embarrassed because people on the plane were saying, that idiot.
What the heck is she laughing at?
And I'd roar and laughing out loud.
But then, you know, you look at the same cartoon, shrunk down to the size of a postage stamp.
And you say, that's funny.
Jimmy (41:04):
Yeah.
Well, especially with your artwork, which is so detailed, you know, it's so reliant on little things and facial expressions and stuff.
Lynn Johnston (41:12):
Yeah.
I got that from a cartoonist by the name of Len Norris.
I think everybody who wants to go into the industry, they know from the age of five that they are smitten with illustration that is exciting and fun and full of interest.
And there was a cartoonist at the Vancouver Sun here in BC.
(41:34):
His name was Len Norris.
He was the editorial cartoonist and they gave him almost a quarter page.
And his work was wonderful.
It was beautiful.
He'd been an architect.
So the illustrations were great.
And but he was funny.
The drawings were hilarious.
And he threw in all kinds of extra detail so that you'd spend a full five minutes or so looking at this beautiful work.
(41:58):
You'd see funny little things in the background like a bird hanging upside down in a tree or a car in the ditch or something that didn't need to be there but was.
And you'd say, holy crap, that guy's funny.
Funny, funny, funny.
Because it wasn't just the gag that was funny, but it was the artwork as well.
So as a little kid, I knew that the more you put into an illustration, the more fun the reader has.
(42:23):
And I wanted to give that when I got into the industry, I wanted to incorporate that wonderful fun by putting in as much funny detail as I could.
SPEAKER_4 (42:33):
That's great.
Could I ask you about a specific character in Peanuts and maybe how you saw that come out in his personality when you were around him?
That would be Linus.
Lynn Johnston (42:46):
Linus.
Well, Sparky was a smart cookie.
He was, I mean, when you think about editorial cartoons, for example, you cannot do it unless you are very politically astute and are ready to take the crap that comes at you if you make a statement.
So he was a very astute illustrator and he had a lifetime of connection with the church.
(43:13):
He was a biblical scholar.
He was well-read.
He was a very intelligent man.
And so that would come out in his work.
And Linus certainly had that introspective, thoughtful ability to look at the other side of the coin.
You know, you feel that way, but what about this?
(43:35):
Well, that happened, but what if this had happened?
And so he had that introspective storytelling skill that you need, but again, this is something, and not to say that I'm smart, but you can't do this if you haven't had some really interesting lifetime experience, and if you haven't been well read, if you're not well educated, it's kind of tough to do a job that requires a lot of thought.
Jimmy (44:00):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_4 (44:01):
Right.
Jimmy (44:02):
You know, my dad was roughly the age of Schulz, and they both were World War II veterans.
My dad almost never talked about it, but it obviously deeply affected him.
Did that ever come up, those sort of traumatic things?
Lynn Johnston (44:18):
Oh, yeah.
He would talk about that openly and easily if the subject came up and even if the subject didn't come up.
And one time at his house, I mean, his house has burned down now.
It was destroyed in one of those fires.
But I remember absolutely clearly every room of that house because I went around the house and I took photographs.
(44:41):
I asked Jeannie, I love the house.
And they, I'm digressing slightly here, but they had to go downtown to a meeting and I was staying with them and I said, would you mind if I photograph your house?
Because I love it.
And if I ever get a chance to build a little place, I'm gonna build a house just like this.
So Jeannie said, fine.
And I said, can I take pictures everywhere?
(45:01):
And she said, wherever you like, wherever you like.
So I took pictures everywhere in that house.
And when the fire came and burned the house down, I was able to center all those pictures.
And it was really, really helpful.
But in the hallway, one of the photographs that I took was of a drawing that Sparky had done of a street in probably somewhere in Holland or Germany.
(45:28):
And he had illustrated this street.
And when they came back from their meeting downtown, I pointed out this little illustration.
And he said, I can draw, you know.
SPEAKER_6 (45:41):
I really can draw.
Lynn Johnston (45:44):
And he wanted people to know that he was actually a very good artist.
He just did not have time to draw and paint because, you know, his extracurriculars were huge.
He was never still.
He was constantly on the move unless his dog fell asleep on his lap.
And then he didn't want to disturb the dog.
(46:05):
So he would sit in his chair and he would fall asleep and wait for the dog to wake up.
So it was kind of a blessing.
He had this fuzzy little odd rescue dog.
And when that little dog ran away and was lost, it broke his heart.
SPEAKER_2 (46:19):
He just was so sorry.
Jimmy (46:22):
And they never found him again?
Lynn Johnston (46:24):
Cute little dog.
No, they never got him again.
Jimmy (46:27):
That's heartbreaking, yeah.
We just got to the point in the strip with Andy in it, so yeah.
Lynn Johnston (46:34):
It was like a little Jack Russell, something like that.
It was a funny little wiry little white dog with brown spots.
And he was just adorable.
And Sparky loved this dog.
And he would sit down on this big blue leather chair and the dog would hop onto his lap.
And if the dog fell asleep, Sparky would too.
And that's one of the rare times I ever saw him still.
(46:55):
Otherwise he was playing golf.
He was out with people.
He was going for long walks.
They had a nice piece of property.
Oh, here's a story for you.
One time I was visiting him and we'd come from an event where I was wearing high heel shoes.
And it was the first time I had gone into this lovely house on Upper Ridge Road in Santa Rosa.
(47:17):
And I said, what a beautiful piece of property.
And he said, well, come and walk with me.
Come, I'll show you the property.
And my husband at the time had gone into town because he wanted to look around at some of the shops.
He was a railroad guy, a train fanatic.
And there was a shop in town that sold model railway stuff.
So off he went.
So I decided to go for a walk around the property with Sparky, but my shoes were high heel shoes.
(47:42):
So he said, you know, you don't have, he said, I've got pretty small feet.
I'm gonna give you a pair of my running shoes and you'll be fine.
So he stuffed the toes of the running shoes with Kleenex.
And the two of us walked around the property.
He also, he had a staff with a fork at the top of it.
And I didn't realize that that was for rattlesnakes.
Jimmy (48:01):
Oh my gosh.
Lynn Johnston (48:05):
So we walked around the property and we had a nice chat.
And I kept thinking, oh, that staff with the fork on top is interesting.
And I would walk over to the edge and look at the view and walk back and he let me walk through the woods without telling me that there were rattlesnakes.
Anyway, we got back to the house and I took off the sneakers and I looked up at him and said, Sparky, I've just walked a mile in your shoes.
Jimmy (48:31):
That is absolutely amazing.
Well, Lynn, thank you so much for taking the time to do this interview.
You are one of our favorite cartoonists.
Your work is just one of the towers of the whole field.
For you to take the time out of your day to talk to us about this other cartoonist we love just means everything to us.
SPEAKER_4 (48:53):
Thank you so much.
Lynn Johnston (48:54):
Thanks for the call.
I enjoyed talking to you.
Thank you.
Jimmy (48:57):
No problem.
We were unbelievably lucky to get Lynn to stop by the studio and chat with us.
It was absolutely a delightful and fun day.
What do you think, Harold?
SPEAKER_4 (49:13):
It was great.
It was really cool to hear Lynn share stories of just having that day-to-day friendship with Sparky.
It's cool to hear it directly from her.
She doesn't filter it out.
She shares the good and the bad in a very good relationship and friendship she had with him.
Jimmy (49:36):
You know one thing I noticed from our interview, the difference between being cartoonist then and now?
It seems as if the private jet money has dried up in cartooning these days.
SPEAKER_4 (49:47):
Oh, that's right.
Jimmy (49:47):
It seemed like people were lousy with private jets in the 80s.
So, we got to work on that.
SPEAKER_4 (49:55):
Yeah, all we have is Edward Lear.
Jimmy (50:02):
Well, listen, honestly, it was such an honor to have Lynn here, so I hope you guys enjoy listening as much as we enjoy chatting with her.
So, come back next week and we'll get down to business again.
Until then, from Michael, Harold, and Liz, this is Jimmy saying, be of good cheer.
SPEAKER_6 (50:18):
Yes, be of good cheer.
Unpacking Peanuts is copyrighted by Jimmy Gownley, Michael Cohen, Harold Buchholz, and Liz Sumner.
Produced and edited by Liz Sumner.
Music by Michael Cohen.
Additional voiceover by Aziza Shukralla Clark.
For more from the show, follow Unpack Peanuts on Instagram and threads.
(50:39):
Unpacking Peanuts on Facebook, Blue Sky, and YouTube.
For more about Jimmy, Michael, and Harold, visit unpackingpeanuts.com.
Have a wonderful day, and thanks for listening.
Lynn Johnston (50:51):
Bill Watterson and I were the only two that ever got a butt crack in the paper.
Welcome to Unpacking Peanuts, the podcast where three cartoonists take an in-depth look at the greatest comic strip of all time, Peanuts by Charles M.
Schulz.
Jimmy (00:19):
Hey, everybody.
Welcome back to the show.
This is Unpacking Peanuts, the show where we, for better or for worse, look at every year of Charles Schulz's comic strip masterpiece, Peanuts.
I'll be your host for the proceedings.
My name is Jimmy Gownley.
And wouldn't you know it, I'm a cartoonist too.
I do things like Amelia Rules, Seven Good Reasons Not To Grow Up, The Dumbest Idea Ever, and my new comics can be seen now, serialized at gvillcomics.substack.com.
(00:44):
Joining me as always are my pals, co-hosts and fellow cartoonists.
He's a playwright and a composer, both for the band Complicated People as well as for this very podcast.
He's the co-creator of the original comic book price guide, the original editor for Amelia Rules, and the creator of such great strips as Strange Attractors, A Gathering of Spells, and Tangled River.
It's Michael Cohen.
Michael (01:03):
Say hey.
Jimmy (01:04):
He's the executive producer and writer of Mystery Science Theater 3000, a former vice president of Archie Comics, and the creator of the Instagram sensation, Sweetest Beasts, Harold Buchholz.
Harold (01:14):
Hello.
Jimmy (01:15):
Well, guys, this is extremely exciting here today.
Today, we are hosting one of the legends of daily cartooning, one of the greatest comic strip artists of all time, and a personal friend of Mr.
Charles M.
Schulz, Lynn Johnston, creator of For Better or For Worse.
Welcome to Unpacking Peanuts, and Lynn, thank you so much for being here today.
(01:39):
It's a huge thrill for us.
Lynn Johnston (01:40):
You're welcome.
It's a pleasure.
Jimmy (01:43):
You are one of the few people, I think, in the world who would have an inkling what Charles Schulz's life is like, having been such a phenomenal successful cartoonist for so long.
Can you take us back to your origin story?
When was it that you first encountered Peanuts?
And what was the effect it had on you?
Lynn Johnston (02:04):
Gosh, I must have been about five, I guess.
Or, yeah, I would think around then.
I did not get along with my maternal grandfather.
He was a very staunchy, slogy British gentleman who preferred boys, and he didn't tolerate me too well.
But both of us loved the comics, and so we would sit on the sofa, and I would sit next to him because his house was always freezing, and we would go over the comics, and he would read everything, everything, and he would analyze everything.
(02:36):
Of course, in those days, there was Moon Mullins and Popeye and Alleyoop and all of those classics, Dick Tracy, and Peanuts was one of the favorites, and he really hated it.
He thought it was terrible.
He said, Children don't talk like that.
That's the most ridiculous thing.
But he would read them aloud to me before I could read, and I realized that maybe kids don't talk like that, but we sure think that way about fairness and just objective things, the things that you notice around town and the way your friends greet you.
(03:12):
And I thought, yeah, it's a different vocabulary, but it's absolutely the way kids think.
And I was always impressed by the way he treated that Sparky, Peanuts, treated kids as adults because, in a way, we have many of the both, certainly when it comes to fairness and relationships, we're pretty, pretty savvy.
Jimmy (03:33):
Oh, absolutely, absolutely.
And I think it's something, I wonder how much of that even Schulz even understood because he always said he wasn't writing for children, but boy, do children get it.
And that's like a special kind of genius, don't you think?
Lynn Johnston (03:49):
He might not have been writing for children, but you never grow up.
You never ever grow up completely.
You don't.
In fact, my husband and I were talking the other day about injustices that happened to us when we were children, the way our parents treated us or kids that bullied us in school, or if we bullied kids.
And we could rock it right back to those days.
(04:11):
We could remember the hurt and remember the embarrassment, and remember punishments that weren't due, and all those things.
And we were thinking, we are both 78 years old.
How is it that these things still affect us today?
And it does.
It really does.
Whatever crap went on in your childhood, you're going to remember when you're my age.
Honest to goodness, it's crazy.
Jimmy (04:31):
Oh, I know that.
I absolutely know that.
Lynn Johnston (04:34):
If you're a parent, take heed.
Jimmy (04:39):
No, it's true.
When you're a parent, you are worried, is this little thing I'm doing now going to scar them for life?
How much therapy is this going to cause this person to go to?
Lynn Johnston (04:48):
A lot of therapy, and you might pay.
SPEAKER_4 (04:53):
I see that in For Better or For Worse, there's so much in there where there's observation of how one generation affects the other, and you're not always noticing how you're affecting the other person.
Lynn Johnston (05:06):
When I was offered the opportunity to do the strip, I had worked for the publisher in Minneapolis, and he sent some little cartoon books I did to Universal Press Syndicate, and they sent me a 20-year contract.
So when I went to Kansas City to meet these people, what they were looking for was something to rival Hyann Lois, and Blondie, and Family Circus, because they were all done by man, and they were all very fanciful about dad comes home from work, and he comes to a perfect home with a perfect life, with perfect care, and perfect kids, and there might be funny things happening with the dog, but it was so unreal.
(05:45):
It was so fanciful.
And so they wanted the dirty diapers, and the bad moods, and the ups and downs, the honest ups and downs of marriage, which was what I had done in my little cartoon books.
And so I signed this 20-year contract, and the strip began in 1979.
Jimmy (06:09):
I have a question for you.
Was it always intended that you were going to age the characters like that?
Was that part of the initial idea?
Or how did that come about?
Because it's so rare and it's so unique.
Lynn Johnston (06:21):
No.
I get bored very easily.
And when you're doing gag a day, it gets boring and it's also not possible to sustain a really good comic strip without other writers for gag a day.
It really is not.
Sparky tried it and he was probably one of the rare beasts who never used writers.
But I felt that if I was going to do a real serious kick at the can, I better be the best I can possibly be with this tiny little bit of real estate.
(06:51):
If you're gonna do it, do it well.
So I realized early on that gag a day, I was gonna need writers.
And also it was going to affect my children because it was based on our family.
So I allowed my children to grow up three years before I started to age the characters.
And then I started to age the characters.
(07:12):
And for me, that was the best decision possible because it gave me a lot more material.
It gave me lots more in that the kids, you know, their behavior changes, the vocabulary changes, they've got friends outside the home.
There were so many more possibilities for humor and controversy and relationships with the characters growing.
(07:34):
But in having them grow, I denied myself the possibility of licensing.
So you can't do, you know, you can't do a Pampers box because by the time the box arrives on the shelf, the baby is now three.
You know, it's usually takes three years because they got to get rid of the old product.
So that you got to sign a contract.
(07:54):
Usually takes a year to get that done and blah, blah.
So licensing was not a possibility.
But we did regular books that came out every year, collection books, and we did calendars and greeting cards.
And it was a very busy life.
Jimmy (08:13):
Can you talk a little bit about the unrelenting nature of drawing a daily comic strip?
You did it for almost 30 years, I think.
Lynn Johnston (08:21):
I did.
Jimmy (08:22):
I cannot imagine.
And your art, I mean, is beautiful.
It's detailed.
The stories are complex.
Can you just talk about what that is like for those of us who will never draw a daily comic strip, what that schedule means?
Lynn Johnston (08:36):
At first, you're in panic mode.
Like in the first year, you really are under a lot of stress and a lot of pressure because it's a brand new job and it's unrelenting.
And people think, oh, you just do a drawing a day and send it off.
But they won't accept anything under a week's worth, except if you're Gary Trudeau.
He could send in three at a time because it was so political.
(09:00):
And so he was an editorial cartoonist, really, yes.
So he was probably the rare bird who could send his work in a bit at a time.
But the rest of us couldn't send in anything less than a week.
And if you were late, you were fined $100, right?
You only need one of those fines before you realize that you got to be on that deadline.
Because they, I mean, the Sunday comics had to go to Buffalo to be colored and then distributed.
(09:25):
And your work is appearing in Guam and Australia and Japan and, you know.
And in those days, there was no real electronic transfer.
They had fax machine was just invented or I think it was invented many years ago, but private family fax machines were only just available.
So I would fax my pencil rough to Lee Salem, who was my editor.
(09:47):
He was a great editor and he and I would go over everything.
And when he approved of my work, I would ink it and then I would send it by Grey Goose Bus from Lynn Lake, Manitoba.
Honestly, it was a full day drive for the bus to get to Winnipeg.
And then it would go by courier from there.
So I was, I had to be, and you have to be six weeks ahead of the dailies, eight weeks ahead of the Sundays because of the distribution and the coloring.
(10:14):
So you're really on the hook.
You've got to do this.
But if you sign a contract and you've got a sense of responsibility, you do it.
And I guess the worst part is not knowing when or how the ideas are going to come.
But when you're young and you're energetic, those ideas are often faster than you can write them down.
(10:36):
So I was blessed with that good fortune and that the Muse hung around me a lot, even though I was a busy mom of two young kids.
And I would work early in the morning.
I would, my son would go to school, my daughter would go to a date, a friend across the street, and I would work from nine to noon and then get the kids lunches.
(10:56):
Then I would later on work after dinner till sometimes four in the morning, and then sleep a few hours and get up and deal with the kids again.
So it was a really busy, busy time.
But when you're young, you can do these things.
So I eventually learned how to get into a rhythm and a routine.
(11:17):
I eventually started to trust myself that even if I couldn't think of a thing on Monday, on Tuesday, I would be able to write.
And I could write two, three weeks a dailies in a day, but just write.
And then the next day I would start the pencil, and then the next day I would do the ink.
So and then you've got the Sunday page, which is much bigger and that all had to be color coded for the colorists in Buffalo.
(11:42):
So that was a huge job.
And I eventually hired someone who was a really good artist to help me with that.
And I also years later, I hired someone to help me with the background illustrations.
So about, I don't know, 15 years before I retired, I was working with a background artist as well.
(12:02):
I did the main characters and I did all the art in pencil, but I would ink the main characters because I wanted those expressions to be just right.
And then I would hand everything over to my friend Laura, who would do all the backgrounds.
So then I could really put in detail like every little bottle on a shelf and every leaf on a tree and brick on a building, you know?
Harold (12:24):
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_4 (12:26):
So Lynn, I wanted to ask you, you mentioned what a great editor Lee Salem was, and you really were pioneering a different type of strip.
And because of what you had done in those three books that you had created, they saw something, I think, in your work that would fill a niche that really didn't exist.
I know Cathy Guisewhite was kind of blazing some trails with some of the things she was doing, but the way you approached the strip was so unique and so different.
(12:55):
I was just wondering about that relationship.
How involved was your syndicate and Lee with you through that process of developing?
Did it continue through the whole stretch of the strip or at some point, did they just kind of let you go and do the thing you were doing?
Lynn Johnston (13:14):
I had tremendous freedom.
I really did.
But anything that is as complicated as this has a rough start.
And so I asked for a creative contract to begin with.
So I had a six-month creative contract before the strip went live.
And Lee and I worked together with the fax machine for six months.
(13:34):
And it was an eye-opener because I had never written dialogue, you know, statement, statement, statement, gag, statement, statement, gag reaction.
You know, and so there's a flow and a rhythm to these things.
And I really had to learn how to do it.
I also had to get rid of any thoughts of any X-rated stuff, you know, if I was going to show a butt crack or talk about a fart or any of that, you know, the poo or whatever happens in the family, you know, I couldn't get away with anything.
(14:01):
In fact, years later, Bill Watterson and I were the only two that ever got a butt crack in the paper.
And we smacked it in.
Jimmy (14:10):
That is amazing.
Lynn Johnston (14:13):
Yeah.
So those first six months, Lee and I worked very closely together.
And then there were editors there who were kind of wacky, who wanted everything to be American.
They wanted American spelling and American situations.
They wanted me to celebrate Memorial Day and anything that was American.
And I said, I'm Canadian.
(14:34):
The strip is sort of centered in Southern Ontario.
If you want me to do that, you've got the wrong artist here.
You better hire someone else to do this and start their own story.
And Lee was my champion.
Said, this is what we want.
We want everything that is right for you and do what you need to do.
(14:55):
So they might change my grammar or they might change something else.
So they might suggest that one strip could be improved by doing X.
But for the most part, I was left alone.
And I had another editor with Lee.
Her name was Sue Roush.
And I keep in touch with Sue now, the two of us right back and forth.
And I sent her the collection books.
(15:16):
And I loved working with Lee and I loved working with Sue.
They were great people.
And they never did anything that was unnecessary.
Some people are a bit of a gatekeeper.
And if they think they have a bit of power, they will needle you and get you to change something just because they want to say, I got her to change it.
They never did anything like that.
(15:37):
They were very, very supportive.
And I had a great relationship with both of them.
Besides, I was one of the few cartoonists they said that was, I was always on time.
Jimmy (15:46):
That'll get you a lot of play if you show up on time.
SPEAKER_4 (15:50):
They're happy, yeah.
So that six months, it was so smart of you to say, I need this time to develop the six months.
So when you were describing that period, pretty much once you had finished your six months of preparation, did any of the strips that you did in those six months kind of build into what you were doing, or were you essentially starting from scratch?
SPEAKER_6 (16:10):
Oh, yeah.
Lynn Johnston (16:11):
No, there were a lot of capers in that six months, and so I would ink them and send them in.
SPEAKER_4 (16:17):
And then was Lee pretty much more hands off after you were in the actual day-to-day process of making the strips?
Lynn Johnston (16:24):
No, he was very involved.
He was very involved.
We would talk about, every time I would send a week of dailies, he would call and we would talk about everything from the quality of the line to the way the lettering was done.
And there were sometimes my hand lettering wasn't clear, for example.
It's not just the gag and the illustration that's important, but it's just every way you present the artwork.
(16:49):
If it's not legible, you've got to think of that.
SPEAKER_4 (16:52):
Right.
Well, I'm so glad to hear a positive story.
Of someone who worked with an editor and you were really a team to make something special.
That's really nice to hear.
Lynn Johnston (17:02):
I had great editors.
Jimmy (17:04):
Yeah.
Harold never hears stories about editors being good from me.
SPEAKER_4 (17:09):
Of course, we have an amazing editor for our podcast.
Jimmy (17:13):
Can you tell us a little bit to get into the real nitty gritty of it?
When you were inking those faces, what were you inking it with?
Lynn Johnston (17:20):
At the time, I was using a flexible speedball nip, C6 speedball nip and Windsor-Newton ink, which was at the time opaque and the best ink I could use, I could find.
Because I was living almost in the Arctic, it was a really distant place.
I had to bring my stuff up from Winnipeg or order it.
I would use Strathmore bond paper.
(17:42):
It was quite a nice thickness.
I would cut it all up and I made templates out of cardboard, and I would put the template down on my little sheet, and I would pencil in my squares and then start working.
Jimmy (17:57):
That's brilliant to do the template like that.
Because just the repetition of drawing up the panel borders for every day, I don't think the idea with cartooning is that it goes by so breezily.
But people don't consider how much work goes into making it seem so breezy.
Lynn Johnston (18:15):
Well, everything looks simple.
A movie looks simple when you go to the theater, right?
A movie looks simple.
You go in, there's a couple of hours, you eat your popcorn, and you go home.
And it never occurs to you all the editing and the sound and everything, the location.
I mean, it's years of work in that two-hour experience, but yet you don't know about it, don't think about it, you just enjoy the product.
(18:36):
So that's the same as any artwork, painting or anything you do.
And so again, with the comic strip, you get into a routine.
I did it all in pencil because I wanted to change the borders sometimes.
I would make the first panel a little bigger than the second one or something.
So I didn't have them printed up.
Charles Schulz had them printed up.
(18:57):
His panels were already printed with the word Peanuts up on the upper left.
And one day when I was in his studio, he was telling me he was going to go to a different format and would have to throw out all of these long panels.
And I measured the panels and I said, each one of your panels is twice the length of mine.
Can I have your paper?
(19:19):
And so he sent me a box of his paper, all with Peanuts printed on it.
And I split it all in half, turned it over and I worked on the back.
And so for a number of years, every For Better or For Worse panel came out with a Peanuts sign on the back.
Jimmy (19:35):
That is amazing.
That is so cool.
Lynn Johnston (19:38):
Yeah, it was fun.
Jimmy (19:39):
Can you tell us about the first time you met him?
Lynn Johnston (19:41):
Well, he called me in about 1985.
And I was sitting in my studio and I got this call.
And by then I had moved from this tiny little Arctic town down to a much less North town.
It was called North Bay, Ontario in Canada.
And I was in my basement studio and my phone rang.
And this thing came up and I said hello in this strange voice.
(20:07):
And I said, who is this?
And he said Charles Schulz.
And I said, who?
Thinking somebody was pranking me, right?
You always think your friends are pranking you.
And he said rather apologetically, I do peanuts.
And I was just speechless.
Just speechless.
And he told me how much he liked my work.
(20:28):
And it was such a wonderful compliment to have somebody who had been in the business for so long, was so well known to say that he liked my work.
And he was genuine about it.
We had a lovely conversation.
And then about a year later, at the Rubin Awards in Washington, Kathy Guisewhite introduced me to him.
And when he shook my hand, he bent over and said, I voted for you.
(20:49):
And that was the year I won.
I won the Rubin Award.
Jimmy (20:54):
Wow.
That is a good day.
Not only did you win, but Charles Schulz said he voted for you.
That's a good day.
Lynn Johnston (21:02):
Well, we hung out together, the bunch of us, Sparky and Jeannie and Kathy and myself.
And at one point, we were walking down one of the many avenues in Washington.
And it was just about to be his 65th birthday.
And Kathy and I were thinking, will you still need me?
Will you still need me?
And he turned around and said, stop that.
(21:22):
Stop that.
I don't want to be 65.
I don't want to be 64.
I don't want to be 64.
So when we met, he was 64.
And I was in my 30s.
Jimmy (21:35):
Now, you had to be real competition to him.
I mean, because For Better or For Worse was in, I don't know if you know this, but quite a few papers.
Now, he was a competitive guy.
Did you ever sense that?
Like, hmm, who's this lady coming on the outside?
Lynn Johnston (21:50):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_6 (21:51):
Yeah.
Lynn Johnston (21:52):
Yes.
If he thought that you were encroaching on his face in any way, he was not friendly.
And I'm not kidding.
Wow.
And at one point, I think that his work had been in the Louvre.
He had gone to Paris and his work was in the Louvre.
And at one point, my work was in over 2,000 papers.
(22:14):
And we were somewhere at a coffee shop or something.
And I leaned over and I said, I'm catching up to you, Sparky.
And he said, I'll see you in the Louvre.
And he said it in a way that was really, it wasn't nice.
Jimmy (22:26):
Wow.
SPEAKER_6 (22:27):
It wasn't nice.
Jimmy (22:29):
Wow.
Wow.
SPEAKER_4 (22:31):
We've often spoken about how the peanut strip is so sports oriented, more so than most other strips.
And he was probably more sports oriented than most other cartoonists.
And that competitive streak in him really does come out.
Lynn Johnston (22:46):
Absolutely.
His wife, Jeannie, hated playing tennis with him because she said he was such a good winner.
He loved to win.
And he would sort of look at you as just to say, aha, you know, so there.
But he was certainly, he was really an athlete.
He played hockey and tennis and golf.
And, you know, he really was competitive, but he was also very good at what he did.
(23:12):
And I know at one time he came down to Kansas City and there was, I think the Rubens was in Kansas City and we were doing a tour of the of the syndicate.
And they were really easygoing guys, those Kansas City guys, and they were all golfers.
And they came up with the BGA, the Bad Golfers Association, and they had hats and scarves.
(23:33):
They had club covers and caddy bags, and they had all this stuff with BGA written on it, meaning the Bad Golfers Association.
So they knew Sparky was a golfer.
And when he came into the building, they gave him this massive collection of BGA stuff, you know, the hat, the whole thing.
And when he got back to the hotel, he said, do you want this stuff?
(23:55):
Because I'm going to throw it out, because I am not a bad golfer.
SPEAKER_4 (24:02):
Yeah.
A lot of us who deal with humor and comedy, we often get so much of that humor out of insecurity.
What did you sense from him in terms of, as a person, how he dealt with that insecurity?
That insecurity, yeah.
Lynn Johnston (24:21):
He talked about it, but he had such a clout.
He was wealthy, he was well-known, he was handsome, he was articulate.
I mean, he had it all.
You kick off all the boxes for success and he had it.
If he was haunted by insecurity, it goes right back to his childhood.
And as I was saying before, you never lose that.
(24:43):
You never forget those insults and those bullies and the time that your mom sent you to your room.
I mean, you never forget the injustices of your childhood or the insecurities or the embarrassments.
And he brought that with him always.
He always had that in the back of his mind.
But as an adult, he was kind of a smug winner.
SPEAKER_4 (25:05):
That's so interesting.
Jimmy (25:07):
I read a story once about his reaction to one of your strips.
And I think this has some sort of insight into him, but I'm not sure what.
So I'll ask you.
When Farley the dog passed away, he and you told him, I guess, that was coming up.
He got very upset, right?
And he was he was invested like a still like a fan.
(25:29):
Could you tell a little bit about that story?
Lynn Johnston (25:31):
Well, yeah, I told him.
I mean, we were very close and I knew him very well.
And my husband and I had an aircraft and we could fly long distances at this point.
We had a Navajo aircraft, which, you know, it's a high altitude, very fast aircraft.
My husband was a really good pilot.
So we spent a lot of time out in California.
We would go out there for the Christmas show and, you know, for all kinds of events.
(25:52):
So we were always out there.
And so I told Sparky that I was planning on doing this because with the characters growing and aging and changing, the dog was now 13.
And I really, my sister-in-law was a veterinarian and she said, old English sheepdogs don't live that long.
You've got to deal with this.
But she said, make him go a hero.
(26:13):
Don't have him go to the vet.
She said, that's the saddest thing.
Just make him go a hero.
And so I took that to heart and I told Sparky, I really had to deal with the age of the dog and I was going to have to bump them off.
Right?
Sparky were furious.
He was furious.
He said, if you kill Farley the dog, I'm going to have Snoopy hit by a truck and sent to the hospital.
(26:35):
And he was serious.
And he said, and everybody's going to care about Snoopy and nobody's going to care about your dumb story.
Jimmy (26:41):
He said, holy cow.
Lynn Johnston (26:43):
So I thought, and he was, yeah, and he was serious.
He never swore.
So your dumb story, right?
So I went home and I said to myself, I guess I better do this without telling him when or how, because he's just going to have Snoopy hit by a truck.
And I don't want that to happen to poor Snoopy, right?
So I devised this story where April goes down to the creek behind their house.
(27:09):
For a while years ago, I had lived in a house on a ravine.
So the For Better or For Worse house was sort of based on that house.
And down in the ravine, there was a river that would in the springtime, really be a fast, deep little river.
And the kids were told to stay away.
So April goes down into the ravine and Farley's with her and she's got a toy boat.
(27:29):
She puts the boat in the river, goes after the boat, goes underwater.
He brings her up, the other dog runs to the house, it's very dramatic.
The dog holds April's head out of the water and the family pulls her out of the water and she's fine, but the dog dies from the exhaustion.
He's an old dog and he dies in April's arms.
(27:52):
Well, it was all very dramatic and I have to digress a little bit and say the saddest thing about this was that it happened at the time of the Oklahoma bombing.
And you never know what's going to be in the headlines because your work is sent in six to eight weeks in advance, right?
So I had done this story six weeks before and never, certainly never thought about what the headlines would be and you can't predict the future.
(28:21):
So when this happened, it was terribly upsetting to everyone who read the strip because they did not need to see a sad story at this time.
Everybody, it was the most outrageous act of terrorism and the most egregious loss of life at the time.
I mean, we're almost getting used to that now, but at the time, it scarred and hurt everyone, and so I was vilified for doing this story at this time.
(28:49):
Yeah.
Jimmy (28:50):
It's a beautiful story.
Lynn Johnston (28:52):
So Sparky was furious.
Jimmy (28:54):
As cartooning, it's great.
Lynn Johnston (28:56):
Well, he phoned me during the strip when the story ended, and when I picked up the phone, the first thing he said was that stupid little girl.
That stupid little girl.
Why did she go down to the river?
Why did she go?
Why that stupid little girl?
And at that point, I realized how invested he was in the comics, that he actually lived inside them, right?
(29:21):
Instead of blaming me, he blamed the character.
Jimmy (29:24):
That's amazing.
And what a compliment it is to your work, though.
Because if there's one person who understands that comics are just something that someone draws on a piece of paper, it would be Charles Schulz.
And for him to be that invested in it, I mean, that really speaks to your characters and your work.
SPEAKER_4 (29:41):
It's Farley.
I mean, Farley was such a beloved dog.
My wife's family named one of their dogs Farley.
So, you know, it's obviously you had quite an impact with it.
Lynn Johnston (29:51):
There were a lot of Farleys out there.
Jimmy (29:55):
Well, listen, how about we take a break right now, get a quick beverage, and then when we come back, we're going to talk about some of your favorite Peanuts comics characters and how you might think they might relate to the real Charles Schulz.
Does that sound like a plan?
Lynn Johnston (30:10):
Sure.
Sounds good.
Jimmy (30:11):
Awesome.
Okay, so everybody will be back on the other side of this.
SPEAKER_6 (30:15):
Hi, everyone.
We all love listening to Jimmy describe what's going on in a Peanuts trip, but comics are actually a visual medium.
You can see them anytime you want at gocomics.com or in your very own copy of the complete Peanuts available from Phantographics.
Plus, if you sign up for our monthly newsletter, you'll know in advance which strips we're talking about each week.
(30:40):
Learn more about the great Peanuts reread at unpackingpeanuts.com.
Jimmy (30:49):
And we're back.
So you were saying, we've done almost 140 episodes of this thing now.
And whenever we see something from the mainstream press or whatever talking to Charles Schulz, they would always say, well, you're probably Charlie Brown, right?
And he would say, yes, I guess I am.
But you see it differently.
You see him a little bit in all of the characters.
(31:11):
And because you tell us a little bit about what your favorite ones are.
Lynn Johnston (31:14):
He would tell you, if you want to know me, if you want to know who I am, read my work, because I am all the characters.
He would say that to you.
And he was right, because he could be as sort of down and out as Charlie Brown, as aggressive and mean and kind of cruel as Lucy.
(31:34):
He could be as pensive as Linus.
He loved music, especially jazz.
And so Schroeder was right in there with his focus on the piano.
And all of the characters, I think, eventually when I met Billy Jane King, I realized that Pebrim and Paddy was Billy Jane King, absolutely.
(31:56):
And for real.
And all of the characters were based on him, but also people that he knew.
Family, friends, teachers, people from his past.
Again, he never let go of his childhood.
And so all of the characters meant something to him.
And but they often meant other things to other people.
(32:18):
And people connect with Charlie Brown a great deal because, you know, and they always wish he would kick the football.
And in fact, when he knew he was dying, we all said, damn, well, Sparky, is Charlie Brown gonna be able to kick the football?
And he would just smile and not say, right?
He didn't say.
So we thought, well, maybe he will.
Maybe he will, but he never did.
Jimmy (32:41):
Now, when you would spend time with him, would you be able to notice the characters and go like, hmm, that's a Lucy moment there, Sparky.
Was it that obvious to you?
Absolutely.
Lynn Johnston (32:53):
Oh, yeah.
There were times when he was really mean.
In fact, Jim Davis was a good friend of mine.
He does Garfield.
And Garfield was becoming more and more and more popular to the point where he was really right up there.
And people were talking about Garfield.
And Jim and I got to know each other quite well.
(33:14):
Jim also had an airplane.
And we would fly down to Muncie, Indiana.
And my daughter grew up with Jim's son.
And we know each other, all of us.
We go to the Rubin Awards every year.
But otherwise, we would call and visit.
I mean, it's a unique group of people.
And we all connect in different ways.
But we all are very supportive and fond of each other.
(33:36):
So Jim wanted Sparky's friendship.
He wanted to get to know him.
He wanted to be invited into the inner circle as another cartoonist who was doing well.
And Sparky rejected him.
He was rude to him.
And he was very smug and happy when Garfield was not successful in Japan.
Because Garfield is rude to his owner, right?
(33:59):
Garfield is not a pleasant character.
Garfield is rude to his owner.
And he is ugly and burps and eats and, you know, is a gross character.
And he appeals to nine-year-old boys all over the world.
But Japan said, no, thank you.
And Sparky was thrilled.
He was absolutely thrilled, ha-ha, ha-ha.
(34:20):
So that kind of competitiveness, I didn't find that endearing at all.
I thought that was mean and unnecessary.
SPEAKER_4 (34:28):
Was the nature of your friendship such that you could call him or would choose to call him out on some of those things or would you just kind of let it slide?
Lynn Johnston (34:37):
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_4 (34:38):
Did he ever take it to heart or did he say, well, maybe I've gone too far or how did that play out?
SPEAKER_2 (34:44):
No.
Lynn Johnston (34:49):
No.
In fact, I got to tell you a story.
One time he phoned me and he said, I am so frustrated.
I've got to get a daily out and I can't.
He said, I've got five done.
I need six.
I got the Sunday.
He said, I'm missing one and I can't think of a thing.
He said, I got out of bed this morning and he said, I was in a terrible mood.
(35:11):
He said, I was depressed.
He said, I was happy one minute, depressed the next day.
He said, I'm on the bungee cord of life.
Up and down, up and down.
I'm on the bungee cord of life.
He said, I said, Sparky, there's number six.
Jimmy (35:24):
That's the script.
Lynn Johnston (35:26):
What he says.
I said, bungee cord of life.
That's number six.
I'm up and down, up and down.
I'm on the bungee cord of life.
I said, there's your punch line.
There's number six.
Jimmy (35:34):
We just covered that one recently.
Lynn Johnston (35:36):
He said, you came up with that.
SPEAKER_4 (35:39):
He wouldn't even take it, but even though he said it, that's so funny.
Lynn Johnston (35:43):
Well, he kept saying that it was in my eyes.
SPEAKER_4 (35:45):
He said it was your idea, even though he had said it.
Lynn Johnston (35:48):
Well, we argued, and I said to him, no, it's absolutely yours.
Go over the conversation.
You came up with that gag.
It's yours.
It's not mine.
It's yours.
So he did it.
He did that strip, and he sent it to me, and so I have it on my wall.
Jimmy (36:03):
That's amazing.
It's so cool.
But I will also say, knowing that he was that competitive and a little bit spiteful, that also makes me like him a little bit more.
Do you think that there is an element that has to be there of that type of personality to achieve that kind of worldwide just dominance culturally?
Lynn Johnston (36:25):
Yeah, you have to be competitive, but you're competitive with yourself.
And you also you look around to see what other people are doing.
But each one of us did something unique to ourselves.
I wasn't doing a copycat of anybody.
And nobody else was doing a copycat of me.
We were all working hard to produce what came out of our soul.
Right.
(36:46):
And it traveled through your right hand and went out on the paper.
And it was you.
It was you on the paper.
And so we were all really competitive and we had deadlines.
And you would look at the paper and we would get the slick sometimes.
You'd see what everybody else was doing.
You'd say, aha, Mother Goose and Grim is getting good.
I better up my game a little bit, you know.
(37:08):
But we all cared for each other.
The competition came with the sales staff at the syndicates.
You know, like the salesmen for For Better or For Worse would go out and say, are you still carrying Blondie?
You should be carrying For Better or For Worse.
And so I would bump for Blondie and sometimes Blondie would bump me.
But I could still be friends with the Young family.
You know, I knew Charlotte and Dean Young very well.
(37:31):
And the the folks that produced Blondie, I knew well, but I wasn't going out personally and saying, hey, you know, take mine instead of theirs.
So it was all of the competition that way was done with the salespeople and by the syndicates.
And so we were all of us, we were left to get together and some of us became very close friends.
SPEAKER_4 (37:54):
That's wonderful.
Could I ask who would you consider was in that inner circle of cartoonists with Charles Schulz along with you and some of the others you were mentioning?
Lynn Johnston (38:06):
It varied, it varied.
You know, it usually came to a breakfast table at the Rubens.
Sparky always had a table where he would invite his favorite people to sit with him at breakfast.
And it varied.
There were editors and cartoonists and salespeople.
And when Patrick does much.
(38:28):
McDonald?
McDonald.
When he came on the scene, he loved Patrick.
And even though his characters were little dogs and charming, they didn't, you know, it wasn't Snoopy-like and they weren't in this, you know, they weren't rivals in any way.
But he loved the charm of Patrick's work.
So Patrick was part of that.
There were quite a few people who were invited to the table, but it wasn't always cartoonist.
(38:51):
Kathy was always there.
If she was in the building, she was there.
I mean, it varied.
But I was usually at the table and I felt very honored to be there.
Jimmy (39:02):
It feels like that period, like the 80s into the 90s, was a real renaissance of newspaper cartoony.
You know, all those people that you mentioned are all great.
Mutz was great.
Calvin and Hobbes, you were working.
Kathy, Schulz, were you aware that, this is a really good time?
Lynn Johnston (39:25):
At the time, we knew that the papers were starting to atrophy.
They were starting to amalgamate.
But we never expected to see comic strips as we knew them to disappear the way they have now.
When they started to shrink them down, and they would shrink them or stretch them so they could squeeze one more in, so you'd see your strip with the characters looking like that screaming painting.
(39:52):
And we'd say, what the heck have they done?
Because they've squeezed, I think the people that do the squeezing don't care about the art.
They just want to get one more comic strip in.
And it went from you having this massively colorful, big, full page, like I read with my grandfather.
And you went from that to these scrawny little, you know, sort of scraps of bits and pieces that eventually, you know, showed up in your paper.
(40:20):
And I created what I thought in my head was a size laugh ratio.
The smaller you shrink a cartoon, the less funny it is.
Now, one time I was flying from Ottawa to back home.
And at the airport, I picked up a Jim Unger book.
It was one of the big collection books and I didn't have it.
So when I got on the plane, I started reading this book.
(40:42):
And it was, you know, the 8x10 big collection book.
And I was laughing out loud.
And I was kind of embarrassed because people on the plane were saying, that idiot.
What the heck is she laughing at?
And I'd roar and laughing out loud.
But then, you know, you look at the same cartoon, shrunk down to the size of a postage stamp.
And you say, that's funny.
Jimmy (41:04):
Yeah.
Well, especially with your artwork, which is so detailed, you know, it's so reliant on little things and facial expressions and stuff.
Lynn Johnston (41:12):
Yeah.
I got that from a cartoonist by the name of Len Norris.
I think everybody who wants to go into the industry, they know from the age of five that they are smitten with illustration that is exciting and fun and full of interest.
And there was a cartoonist at the Vancouver Sun here in BC.
(41:34):
His name was Len Norris.
He was the editorial cartoonist and they gave him almost a quarter page.
And his work was wonderful.
It was beautiful.
He'd been an architect.
So the illustrations were great.
And but he was funny.
The drawings were hilarious.
And he threw in all kinds of extra detail so that you'd spend a full five minutes or so looking at this beautiful work.
(41:58):
You'd see funny little things in the background like a bird hanging upside down in a tree or a car in the ditch or something that didn't need to be there but was.
And you'd say, holy crap, that guy's funny.
Funny, funny, funny.
Because it wasn't just the gag that was funny, but it was the artwork as well.
So as a little kid, I knew that the more you put into an illustration, the more fun the reader has.
(42:23):
And I wanted to give that when I got into the industry, I wanted to incorporate that wonderful fun by putting in as much funny detail as I could.
SPEAKER_4 (42:33):
That's great.
Could I ask you about a specific character in Peanuts and maybe how you saw that come out in his personality when you were around him?
That would be Linus.
Lynn Johnston (42:46):
Linus.
Well, Sparky was a smart cookie.
He was, I mean, when you think about editorial cartoons, for example, you cannot do it unless you are very politically astute and are ready to take the crap that comes at you if you make a statement.
So he was a very astute illustrator and he had a lifetime of connection with the church.
(43:13):
He was a biblical scholar.
He was well-read.
He was a very intelligent man.
And so that would come out in his work.
And Linus certainly had that introspective, thoughtful ability to look at the other side of the coin.
You know, you feel that way, but what about this?
(43:35):
Well, that happened, but what if this had happened?
And so he had that introspective storytelling skill that you need, but again, this is something, and not to say that I'm smart, but you can't do this if you haven't had some really interesting lifetime experience, and if you haven't been well read, if you're not well educated, it's kind of tough to do a job that requires a lot of thought.
Jimmy (44:00):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_4 (44:01):
Right.
Jimmy (44:02):
You know, my dad was roughly the age of Schulz, and they both were World War II veterans.
My dad almost never talked about it, but it obviously deeply affected him.
Did that ever come up, those sort of traumatic things?
Lynn Johnston (44:18):
Oh, yeah.
He would talk about that openly and easily if the subject came up and even if the subject didn't come up.
And one time at his house, I mean, his house has burned down now.
It was destroyed in one of those fires.
But I remember absolutely clearly every room of that house because I went around the house and I took photographs.
(44:41):
I asked Jeannie, I love the house.
And they, I'm digressing slightly here, but they had to go downtown to a meeting and I was staying with them and I said, would you mind if I photograph your house?
Because I love it.
And if I ever get a chance to build a little place, I'm gonna build a house just like this.
So Jeannie said, fine.
And I said, can I take pictures everywhere?
(45:01):
And she said, wherever you like, wherever you like.
So I took pictures everywhere in that house.
And when the fire came and burned the house down, I was able to center all those pictures.
And it was really, really helpful.
But in the hallway, one of the photographs that I took was of a drawing that Sparky had done of a street in probably somewhere in Holland or Germany.
(45:28):
And he had illustrated this street.
And when they came back from their meeting downtown, I pointed out this little illustration.
And he said, I can draw, you know.
SPEAKER_6 (45:41):
I really can draw.
Lynn Johnston (45:44):
And he wanted people to know that he was actually a very good artist.
He just did not have time to draw and paint because, you know, his extracurriculars were huge.
He was never still.
He was constantly on the move unless his dog fell asleep on his lap.
And then he didn't want to disturb the dog.
(46:05):
So he would sit in his chair and he would fall asleep and wait for the dog to wake up.
So it was kind of a blessing.
He had this fuzzy little odd rescue dog.
And when that little dog ran away and was lost, it broke his heart.
SPEAKER_2 (46:19):
He just was so sorry.
Jimmy (46:22):
And they never found him again?
Lynn Johnston (46:24):
Cute little dog.
No, they never got him again.
Jimmy (46:27):
That's heartbreaking, yeah.
We just got to the point in the strip with Andy in it, so yeah.
Lynn Johnston (46:34):
It was like a little Jack Russell, something like that.
It was a funny little wiry little white dog with brown spots.
And he was just adorable.
And Sparky loved this dog.
And he would sit down on this big blue leather chair and the dog would hop onto his lap.
And if the dog fell asleep, Sparky would too.
And that's one of the rare times I ever saw him still.
(46:55):
Otherwise he was playing golf.
He was out with people.
He was going for long walks.
They had a nice piece of property.
Oh, here's a story for you.
One time I was visiting him and we'd come from an event where I was wearing high heel shoes.
And it was the first time I had gone into this lovely house on Upper Ridge Road in Santa Rosa.
(47:17):
And I said, what a beautiful piece of property.
And he said, well, come and walk with me.
Come, I'll show you the property.
And my husband at the time had gone into town because he wanted to look around at some of the shops.
He was a railroad guy, a train fanatic.
And there was a shop in town that sold model railway stuff.
So off he went.
So I decided to go for a walk around the property with Sparky, but my shoes were high heel shoes.
(47:42):
So he said, you know, you don't have, he said, I've got pretty small feet.
I'm gonna give you a pair of my running shoes and you'll be fine.
So he stuffed the toes of the running shoes with Kleenex.
And the two of us walked around the property.
He also, he had a staff with a fork at the top of it.
And I didn't realize that that was for rattlesnakes.
Jimmy (48:01):
Oh my gosh.
Lynn Johnston (48:05):
So we walked around the property and we had a nice chat.
And I kept thinking, oh, that staff with the fork on top is interesting.
And I would walk over to the edge and look at the view and walk back and he let me walk through the woods without telling me that there were rattlesnakes.
Anyway, we got back to the house and I took off the sneakers and I looked up at him and said, Sparky, I've just walked a mile in your shoes.
Jimmy (48:31):
That is absolutely amazing.
Well, Lynn, thank you so much for taking the time to do this interview.
You are one of our favorite cartoonists.
Your work is just one of the towers of the whole field.
For you to take the time out of your day to talk to us about this other cartoonist we love just means everything to us.
SPEAKER_4 (48:53):
Thank you so much.
Lynn Johnston (48:54):
Thanks for the call.
I enjoyed talking to you.
Thank you.
Jimmy (48:57):
No problem.
We were unbelievably lucky to get Lynn to stop by the studio and chat with us.
It was absolutely a delightful and fun day.
What do you think, Harold?
SPEAKER_4 (49:13):
It was great.
It was really cool to hear Lynn share stories of just having that day-to-day friendship with Sparky.
It's cool to hear it directly from her.
She doesn't filter it out.
She shares the good and the bad in a very good relationship and friendship she had with him.
Jimmy (49:36):
You know one thing I noticed from our interview, the difference between being cartoonist then and now?
It seems as if the private jet money has dried up in cartooning these days.
SPEAKER_4 (49:47):
Oh, that's right.
Jimmy (49:47):
It seemed like people were lousy with private jets in the 80s.
So, we got to work on that.
SPEAKER_4 (49:55):
Yeah, all we have is Edward Lear.
Jimmy (50:02):
Well, listen, honestly, it was such an honor to have Lynn here, so I hope you guys enjoy listening as much as we enjoy chatting with her.
So, come back next week and we'll get down to business again.
Until then, from Michael, Harold, and Liz, this is Jimmy saying, be of good cheer.
SPEAKER_6 (50:18):
Yes, be of good cheer.
Unpacking Peanuts is copyrighted by Jimmy Gownley, Michael Cohen, Harold Buchholz, and Liz Sumner.
Produced and edited by Liz Sumner.
Music by Michael Cohen.
Additional voiceover by Aziza Shukralla Clark.
For more from the show, follow Unpack Peanuts on Instagram and threads.
(50:39):
Unpacking Peanuts on Facebook, Blue Sky, and YouTube.
For more about Jimmy, Michael, and Harold, visit unpackingpeanuts.com.
Have a wonderful day, and thanks for listening.
Lynn Johnston (50:51):
Bill Watterson and I were the only two that ever got a butt crack in the paper.
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